Ep. 72 // "A Tomim In Montreal" w/ Rabbi Joseph Polak

00:00 Speaker 1 Rebbe Greenglass is out of it. He re- but he recovers, he recovers looks like fully, and winds up one day back in the yeshiva for, I saw him first time for M- for Mincha Maariv. One of the bochurim goes over to him and, like, wishes him well and said he- he's back, happy to see him, and he said, "Are you really better?" And Rebbe Greenglass thinks about it, doesn't answer right away. And he says, "Yeah. Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2025. My name is Benji Afzen, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here with Rabbi Yosef Polak, Av Beis Din of Boston. Thank you very much for making the time, and thank you very much, uh, those who suggested, uh, me reaching out, and thank you Moishi Liberov for making this shidduch. Thank you very much. And for all those who enjoy the podcast, please like and subscribe on the different platforms. It helps us very much. And if you really like what we're doing, please, please support the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyways, Rabbi Polak, pleasure meeting you. Shalom aleichem. Shalom.

01:37 Speaker 2 We spoke on the phone, and I had the, I had the pleasure of watching some of your interviews done in the past. And, uh, on the phone you told me quite a story already, and we're gonna try to recap it for those who haven't heard it yet. People will be asking why did I come to an Av Beis Din in Boston? What does he have to do with Lubavitch? And the answer is...

02:01 Speaker 1 Uh, I became the Av Beis Din because, uh, my predecessor, uh, and was a gaon atsum, uh, who was grooming me for the position, and I really fell into with it. It's not anything I was looking for. Um, and, uh, I only half realized that he was grooming me, but afterwards, when he was niftar, I put as- all the pieces together, and I realized that that was going on. Um, but the Menahel was the one that, uh, said, "Uh, you're the guy." Uh, so, uh, that's how I fell into it. Um, I was on the Beis Din just as a Chaver Beis Din, uh, and, uh, learned from real gedolim, Seder Gittin, and Gittin, and, uh, tough shailas, and how to think about things, and, um, uh, and but it was really a case of a makim she-eino yesh. Uh, hishtadlu, right? You have to do it. So I did it. Um, uh, it is not, uh, in any way lucrative. Uh, and, uh, uh, I do it, uh, because it needs to be done. And I wa- I'll tell you, uh, um, I had a dream about it. I'm gonna tell you the dream. Uh, the dream, well, it's already, it's already 10 years-

03:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:42 Speaker 1 Uh, the dream took place in one of these paintings of the Rebbe. No, not the Rebbe. It w- it, a painting of Lubavitcher Hasidim, uh, early morning in shul preparing hachanos for davening. You've, you've seen this painting.

04:04 Speaker 2 Kle- Zalman Kleiman, yeah.

04:05 Speaker 1 It's one of the Kleiman paintings, yeah.

04:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

04:06 Speaker 1 And I have it upstairs. I'll show it to you on the way.

04:08 Speaker 2 Oh, uh, uh-huh.

04:09 Speaker 1 Uh, and I dreamed that I was in that shul with those guys standing around, and the Rebbe walked in with, with his maskirim, whom I didn't recognize. I recognized the Rebbe. I didn't know who the, the guys that, uh, you know, were, were accompanying him were. And he, he didn't talk to me at first. He talked to some other people in the painting, right? This Hasid and that Hasid. He w- he was busy. He was like in a, like a bit, I wouldn't say in a hurry, but moving along. And then on his way out, he turned to me, came over to me, and he said to me, "B'za ha'lashon, dos vos du tust mitn Beis Din iz r chodsh."

04:56 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

04:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's it. Uh, so I'm waiting for the re- dream to happen again, you know. That way you know it's for sure. Take it for what it's worth, but it's one of the reasons that I've stayed with the, uh, with the position.

05:12 Speaker 2 So you have to live a little bit with the Suffolk? You don't have the Vado's of the two dreams?

05:17 Speaker 1 I don't have the Vado's of two dreams.

05:18 Speaker 2 All right. It'll be okay.

05:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:20 Speaker 2 All right. So the-

05:21 Speaker 1 You need multiple. You need multiple.

05:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, but, but the question that people have now is what's your shайach to the Rebbe and what's your shайach to Lubavitch? So how about we go back to the beginning of the story. Most people when they hear Av Beis Din in a big city in America, they're not assuming a Lubavitch upbringing. So, so tell us a little bit about that, that connection.

05:39 Speaker 1 The best way, best way to understand my, my connection to Lubavitch is that, uh, I came to Canada with many other people, survivors after the war, having, uh, served my sentences in, uh, Bergen-Belsen and, uh, in other places. Um, and, um, in, in Montreal, um, I was already a yasom. My father had been murdered- Uh, but in Montreal, um, my, my father, my, and my stepfather and my mother met. I was the shat zun for that. Uh, and they got married, and the first thing that my, my stepfather insisted on is that I go to a Frum yeshiva. I was going to a public school, which is what my mother knew from Holland, that there were no yeshivas for kids in Holland.

06:35 Speaker 2 Were your parents in Holland religious Jews?

06:38 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

06:38 Speaker 2 They were religious Jews.

06:39 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

06:40 Speaker 2 Right.

06:40 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. But in Holland-

06:41 Speaker 2 Right. Right. There was no such thing as a cheder.

06:43 Speaker 1 There was no such thing.

06:44 Speaker 2 Right.

06:45 Speaker 1 And, and, uh, so she really didn't know. I mean, she knew, but it wasn't on, on the radar, but he insisted. So by grade three, I was, uh, in the Lubavitcher Yeshiva, uh, w- and my rebbe for the year for grade three was Reb Nachum Ze'ev Ben Yechiel HaLevi Greenglass.

07:06 Speaker 2 Right. This is Wolf, the famous Wolf Greenglass.

07:09 Speaker 1 This is him.

07:10 Speaker 2 He was a rebbe in the cheder.

07:11 Speaker 1 He was grade three, he was my rebbe.

07:13 Speaker 2 He was also mashgiach in the yeshiva or not yet?

07:16 Speaker 1 I think he was already.

07:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:18 Speaker 1 I think he was already. He was, uh, a very powerful, charismatic, beautiful, uh, human being. Uh, and he did something dreadful with me. He put me in front of the class next to him, facing the whole class. So I immediately became notorious as teacher's pet.

07:42 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:42 Speaker 1 But I didn't have the background of the other's kids, and that's why he wanted me next to him. And, uh, sometimes, um, when we were davening, he wasn't sure if I knew the place, so he would lean over, um, and point to the place right over my desk, and as he leaned over me, uh, the page got wet, and he would say to me, "This is going to mikveh water." Uh, and, uh, with a twinkle in his eye. He thought everything was funny.

08:17 Speaker 2 Oh, really? He had-

08:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

08:18 Speaker 2 ... sense-

08:18 Speaker 1 He has wonderful sense of humor.

08:20 Speaker 2 Sense of humor.

08:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um-

08:23 Speaker 2 He, he ever got angry? Like disciplinarian?

08:28 Speaker 1 No. Never.

08:31 Speaker 2 Really?

08:32 Speaker 1 Never.

08:33 Speaker 2 W- what was your first impression of him? Like, seeing this Hassid, like, out of the books for you? You certainly hadn't seen them in Holland. Did you... You didn't remember Holland, did you?

08:43 Speaker 1 I do remember Holland, sure.

08:44 Speaker 2 Oh, as a two-year-old?

08:46 Speaker 1 I lived in Holland after the war-

08:48 Speaker 2 I see. I see

08:49 Speaker 1 ... from the age of three to six.

08:51 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

08:51 Speaker 1 So I went to school there and-

08:52 Speaker 2 I see

08:53 Speaker 1 ... you know. Yeah. So I have very clear and real memories of Holland. Uh, so, so, um, you, you're asking me about, uh, how, how he impressed me. I, I, I was a kid, and I wasn't much into clothes, and, and that's why I was not, I was not, I do not remember-

09:14 Speaker 2 Hmm

09:14 Speaker 1 ... being in any way put off or, or f- or startled, uh, by the outfits. I know I, I had tzitzits. I had tzitzits the day I reconnected with my mother, uh, in, in, in Holland after she was supposed to have been dead. Uh, and she was recovered, and she found me, uh, and they brought me to her, and, uh, the f- she, she had... She was in the hospital, and, uh, that's a whole parsha by itself. I could tell it if you want later. Uh, but in the hospital where she was recuperating, she pointed to, uh... When I first saw her for the first time, and I didn't remember who she was. They had to tell me it was my mother.

10:01 Speaker 2 'Cause you were such a little kid?

10:02 Speaker 1 No, because she had sh- in the ca- in the camps and at the last days of the war, she weighed 50 pounds.

10:10 Speaker 2 Right.

10:12 Speaker 1 Uh, and when I was, so to speak, repatriated with her, she was back to her normal weight.

10:18 Speaker 2 Oh.

10:18 Speaker 1 She had been in the hospital for a while, and-

10:19 Speaker 2 So unrecognizable?

10:21 Speaker 1 Unrecognizable.

10:22 Speaker 2 Wow.

10:22 Speaker 1 Uh, but after we kind of figured out that this was indeed my mother, and I, you know, was stuck with that, um, she, uh, she said, "Open the drawer." There's a night table. "Open the drawer." And I opened the drawer, and in the drawer there was a big pile, looked like a mountain to me, of what today you would call Hanukkah gelt.

10:48 Speaker 2 Right.

10:48 Speaker 1 It wasn't money. It was chocolate, right, with, in, in a gold foil. And she says, "Look inside." So inside I pulled out a beautiful red pocket siddur. And she said, "There's more." And I pulled it out, and it was a pair of tzitzits.

11:10 Speaker 2 Hmm.

11:10 Speaker 1 And I said, "What's this?" I had no idea what it was. And she says, "Jews need these things." And that was my first real conversation with my mother after the war.

11:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

11:26 Speaker 1 So, um, her father, her father, uh, was, um, a world-class hazzan. Hazzan Levinsky was his name. I'm named after him, Avraham Yosef. Um, and, uh, who wound up in Canada. He was the chief hazzan of The Hague, and then he wound up in Canada, in Montreal. Uh, and, uh, when he... And my mother was his accompanist. My mother was a, uh, classical pianist, and when he was niftar, when my grandfather was niftar, my mother, this, I think the next day after the shiva, moved back to Holland. Uh, where she had been raised and where she had been nurtured. Um, and, uh, then the war came. There she married my father, obviously, uh, and she had me, and then the war came.

12:22 Speaker 2 Hmm. So she could've, she could've avoided the whole thing potentially.

12:26 Speaker 1 She could have avoided the whole thing, but she saw her identity was a Dutch Jew.

12:29 Speaker 2 Right.

12:30 Speaker 1 And she had to be back there.

12:32 Speaker 2 So you come to the yeshiva, you s- you, you, you f- find yourself in this milieu that's certainly not Dutch with all the Hasidim and the whole Montreal, uh-

12:41 Speaker 1 I found myself in a milieu where everybody counted.

12:46 Speaker 2 Hmm.

12:47 Speaker 1 There's that, that a kid should be, should go f- fall through the cracks in the yeshiva.

12:53 Speaker 2 Hmm.

12:54 Speaker 1 Uh, and-

12:57 Speaker 2 But there was no cultural strangeness of, uh-

12:59 Speaker 1 No

12:59 Speaker 2 ... like, like this... You were s- showing me the picture earlier that it looked like Warsaw, 1930s. That didn't, that didn't impress you?

13:05 Speaker 1 No. No.

13:08 Speaker 2 Because-

13:08 Speaker 1 It was a place, it was a place that was fabulous for me. Uh-

13:12 Speaker 2 And how old were you at this point? Nine?

13:14 Speaker 1 Nine.

13:15 Speaker 2 Nine. And you, you loved it right away?

13:18 Speaker 1 Loved it.

13:19 Speaker 2 What did you love about it?

13:20 Speaker 1 I loved the Abba Israel-

13:21 Speaker 2 Yeah

13:22 Speaker 1 ... was there. And, and, and, and-

13:24 Speaker 2 And the staff and-

13:24 Speaker 1 I didn't know-

13:25 Speaker 2 Or, and the boys?

13:26 Speaker 1 I didn't know. The staff, the boys were boys.

13:29 Speaker 2 Boys were boys.

13:30 Speaker 1 You know? We, we fought every recess.

13:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Right.

13:33 Speaker 1 But, uh, that's regardless. I mean, it was serious, it was good. Uh, and what's also quite remarkable was the excellence of Limudei Kodesh.

13:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

13:46 Speaker 1 All the way through high school. All the way through high school. First class. There was no compromise on that. Uh, but the person, as it turns out, who was making sure that no kid in that school would, would slip into the shadows was the Rebbe.

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15:32 Speaker 1 Of course.

15:33 Speaker 2 I interviewed his son. Was he a teacher in the time that you were there?

15:36 Speaker 1 Later.

15:37 Speaker 2 Later.

15:37 Speaker 1 A little bit later. Yeah.

15:39 Speaker 2 Special Jew, no?

15:41 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

15:45 Speaker 2 Who, who are some of the other figures that you remember from, uh, Montreal?

15:49 Speaker 1 I s- I remember the first principal of the yeshiva, Reb Yossi, Yossi Ruddel.

15:54 Speaker 2 Ruddell.

15:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, uh, he was a, a short guy. Part of the Shuyit. Real old country. Knew how to give a frashke.

16:09 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

16:10 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Um, and, uh, kind.

16:15 Speaker 2 At the same time, you're saying-

16:16 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was not, he was not a, uh, uh, a control freak at all. Uh, but this is how he knew how to-

16:26 Speaker 2 Sure

16:26 Speaker 1 ... how to administer a yeshiva, and he was very good. He was very good. Nobody cared. Nobody cared. Uh, nobody would call him abusive or anything of... the furthest thing from it, he's not. Uh, and but I- we liked him because he loved to sing, and he loved nigunim. And, uh, he was, he was a serious guy. He was a ser- like most Lubavitcher Hasidim, was a serious guy. He knew what he was doing. He knew where he was going. Uh, and, uh, I knew his wife, who lived to be 102 years old, uh, who ran... E- eventually, the, he left the yeshiva, opened a, uh, Hebrew bookstore. Uh, and I s- and I knew her from, from the bookstore more than anything else. Uh, but they were a, uh, uh, a strong and a good couple. And, uh, I, one of the, one of the, his kids was in my class with Rabbi Greenless, Shmolik Ruddell.

17:32 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

17:33 Speaker 1 Who lives in, uh, in Italy, in Milano. And there are wonderful stories with, uh, with Shmolik. He picked on Shmolik.

17:41 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

17:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, he would stop the whole class, and everybody knew that something dramatic is gonna happen. C- like us in the middle of, uh, of, uh, Pasuk Chumash-

17:57 Speaker 2 Des-

17:57 Speaker 1 ... and he stopped Greenless. Stopped everything.

18:00 Speaker 2 Describe what he looked like first.

18:02 Speaker 1 Rabbi Greenless was, I would say, about five foot ten, five foot eleven.

18:08 Speaker 2 That's a tall man.

18:09 Speaker 1 Tall man. Uh, he w- had a red, very, uh, thin beard. Not a heavy beard at all. He had blonde hair Uh, he was not thin, he was not fat. He was an Adam benoni, and he was a pikeach, uh, and a yirash Shamaim over the edge. You wanna know what I learned from him? I will tell you that in a minute.

18:39 Speaker 2 Right.

18:39 Speaker 1 'Cause I, I learned one very specific thing from him. Um, I learned... But the, but he, he, he would stop the whole class in grade three, one of the great scenes in grade three, and everybody knew something's gonna happen. And he went over- he would go over to Shmulik, and he would say, "Shmulik," he says, "." He says, ". Is it true that yesterday you yelled at your mother?" Shmulik would turn pale, pale as a ghost. And, and then, you know, he would say, "Yeah." He would say yeah, and Green- that was the end of it. Now, Green- Greenglass would say something like, "," you know, whatever. Um, and, and life would go on, and Shmulik would always go over to him after class. He would say, ". How did you know?" Greenglass would never answer. Then we had another case like that with Shmulik. Um, he would go over he went over to Shmulik, whole class stopped. He would say, "Shmulik ." And Shmulik again would turn white as a sheet, and he would say, "Forgot." And then when class was over, he would go over to Glass and say to him, "." So Greenglass would point to Shmulik's forehead and say, ". You have a, uh, a sign there that you didn't know Ma'ariv." Uh, it was both hilarious and unnerving.

20:33 Speaker 2 A bit unnerving.

20:34 Speaker 1 Uh, unnerving. Uh, and, uh, who was this man? Who was this man? Uh, you know, I got to see a lot of him over the 15, 20 years that I was with the yeshiva. Um, he never got more serious. He never got less serious. He was very focused. He was very disciplined. He didn't miss a Mincha-Maariv. Um, his, his... For me, his shiurim were fine, but not spectacular. For his reputation, you wanted some kind of ilui in learning. He was good. He was good. But, you know, for, uh, yeah, anyway. But, uh, what was interesting, um, was his understanding of the neshamah, understanding of the person, and the most magnificent thing about him that I remember, I'm not saying that I re- knew everything, 'cause I was a kid, and how much did I know? I mean, he was in my life substantially into my 20s, and he collected Ma'amad for the Rebbe, and I used to give him, and I have letters from him acknowledging that, all handwritten. Um, uh, so he-- It's not like he left my life, but I... So that's why I'm comfortable saying that the persona didn't change much. Um, but what-- of, of all the things that he taught me that stayed with me is a very, very profound teaching, uh, which, which is with me in, in serious ways, and that has to do with the treachery of the Yetzer Hara. He was a bucky in the tricks of the Yetzer Hara. He was a master. Uh, and-

23:14 Speaker 2 Like, what's an example of that?

23:17 Speaker 1 An example of that, that I saw more than once, is, uh... So Seder Chassidis was 9:30, was this-- and, uh, Shabbos morning was 8:30. And then, yeah, and then 9:30 was a break for a few minutes in which the yeshiva served breakfast. Breakfast on Shabbos morning, especially to essen vor dem davening, et cetera, et cetera, um, uh, was cake and coffee. And he would come. I don't remember him eating there. I don't remember him eating publicly. Um, but, uh, he would come to breakfast, and there was a bachur there. I don't remember who it was. The bachur cuts himself a slice of cake, uh, makes a bracha, takes some coffee, drinks, and you don't know that, that Greenglass is watching you, but Greenglass knows that Greenglass is watching you. Then the bachur takes a second slice of cake. Oh. Rabbi Nachum Zev ben Rav Avraham Yehudah HaLevi walks over to him. He says, "." You know, "Three meals on Shabbos I know about. Four meals? Whoever..." Okay. And, and, uh, this is, this is, uh, the guy didn't need the second piece of cake, you know? And, and that's what Chassidis about.

25:03 Speaker 2 It's about what?

25:04 Speaker 1 What Chassid-- That, that, that you, you take what you need-

25:07 Speaker 2 Right

25:08 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and not what you don't need.

25:10 Speaker 2 Right.

25:11 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, you know, our interaction, our interaction, uh, all our interactions with Olam HaZeh is for, is Hashem Shamayim. That's really. And he knew he was the master in understanding how the yetzer hara seduced you-

25:29 Speaker 2 Mm

25:29 Speaker 1 ... out of that stuff.

25:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:31 Speaker 1 And, uh, uh, to live a life completely given over to you. I mean, uh, if a guy took a haircut, you knew. I'm not talking in Beit Midrash now, but in, in the younger years, you knew that Greenglass was gonna look at you after the haircut. And the guys would come with really upkehacht a payos, uh, from the barber. What did the French-Canadian barber in Montreal know from payos, you know?

26:04 Speaker 2 Right.

26:05 Speaker 1 And, and, and he would s- he would sit with this kid and teach him how to sit at the barber. He would say, "Fischl, hoyz vi a zayt zestu bay barber." So he, he would say, "Sit down, and this is how you have to sit. And you don't take your hands off there-

26:26 Speaker 2 Hmm

26:26 Speaker 1 ... until you," uh... And, uh, we used to have, uh, a guy coming into all the classes in the yeshiva. Very funny guy, beautiful neshamah. His name was Nelson Felig. His, his kids are, are all, uh, Lubavitcher guys everywhere.

26:49 Speaker 2 Right.

26:50 Speaker 1 Uh, and, uh, and Rav Nelson, and Rav Nelson would come into the class, all the classes in the yeshiva, on certain mornings with a big plastic bag full of nickels. And he didn't ask if he could come. He barged in. And he said, "Whoever is wearing tzitzit, I'm giving him a nickel."

27:16 Speaker 2 There were a lot of boys in the school that weren't wearing tzitzit?

27:19 Speaker 1 A lo- a lot veys zakhesht.

27:21 Speaker 2 But there were.

27:21 Speaker 1 But there were kids from, from really k- homes that didn't, that barely knew about tzitzit.

27:26 Speaker 2 Right.

27:26 Speaker 1 Let me put it that way.

27:27 Speaker 2 Right.

27:28 Speaker 1 Um, and so he went around, and if you wore a tzitz-- And, uh, and when you, when, when, um, if you didn't have tzitzit, it was very embarrassing, but he wanted to know, "Where is your tzitzit?" So there was one routine answer. Uh, "They're in the wash." And it was worth a million dollars to see Rabbi Greenglass' face when he heard that answer. Um, and, uh, the other rebbeim as well, uh, for what it's worth. But Rabbi Greenglass, Rabbi Greenglass, um, um... Rav Rami Feig mashgiach told me one last story about Rabbi Greenglass, um, which, which illus- illustrates the same thing. He said that, uh, in his 90s, Rabbi Greenglass had a heart attack, uh, was taken to the Jewish General Hospital, which is pretty much next door to the yeshiva, um, by a Lubavitcher, uh, doctor who was in emergency medicine in HaKodesh Barikh Hu, you know. Takka va'asen ze rufu u'demakkah. This is, like, ridiculous. Uh, and, uh, Rabbi Greenglass is out of it. He r- but he recovers. He recovers, looks like fully, and winds up one day back in the yeshiva for, I saw him first time for miv- for Mincha Maariv. No, I wasn't there anymore. I used to see him there a lot for Mincha Maariv. And one of the bochurim goes over to him and, like, wishes him well and said he, he's back, happy to see him. And he said, "Are you really better?" And Rabbi Greenglass thinks about it, doesn't answer right away. And he says,

29:30 Speaker 1 "Yeah. Kh'tenken zikh bin besser." So they ask him, so he asks him, "What m- what makes you think that?" He says, "Well, the yetzer hara is tzurik." He said the yetzer hara is back. Uh- So th- but this was an enormous gift.

29:48 Speaker 2 You think he was-- He, he-- Did-- You, you, you, you knew him later on as well in the yeshiva, right?

29:53 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

29:54 Speaker 2 Did he speak differently to kids than as, than he spoke to bochurim? That's how he spoke to everybody.

29:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:00 Speaker 2 In a kind of homely language.

30:04 Speaker 1 Nothing artificial in anything that he did. Nothing was strained. Nothing was forced. Everything was completely natural. He was a holy man.

30:12 Speaker 2 Right.

30:12 Speaker 1 And he was there. He was there in places that we could only hope-

30:17 Speaker 2 Hmm

30:17 Speaker 1 ... to be.

30:18 Speaker 2 So let's talk about your yeshiva years a little bit. You, uh, you told me on the phone that you basically graduated to yeshiva at a young age.

30:28 Speaker 1 Uh, I was 23 when I got semikhah.

30:41 Speaker 2 Maybe graduated to yeshiva at a young age, right? You went to yeshiva at a young age.

30:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:47 Speaker 2 Right.

30:47 Speaker 1 At thr- at grade three.

30:49 Speaker 2 You went from grade three into yeshiva?

30:51 Speaker 1 Through semikhah.

30:52 Speaker 2 You went into the main yeshiva at grade three. When did you go into the Beit Midrash?

30:56 Speaker 1 I went to the Beit Midrash in high school.

30:58 Speaker 2 That's what you told me. Okay.

30:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:58 Speaker 2 So you went to Beit Midrash-

30:59 Speaker 1 I went to Beit Midrash in high school.

31:01 Speaker 2 Yes.

31:01 Speaker 1 Uh, what I told you was that, uh- In retrospect, we didn't have these terms in those days, but I was pretty ADD.

31:10 Speaker 3 Right.

31:11 Speaker 1 And sage from the stage was very difficult for me. A rabbi droning-

31:16 Speaker 3 Right.

31:17 Speaker 1 ... wasn't doing it for me.

31:18 Speaker 3 I don't think it does it for anybody, but okay.

31:21 Speaker 1 Uh, it wasn't doing it for me. And but by this, by, by high school, I was already learning with Rabbi Hirschfeld.

31:33 Speaker 3 Hmm.

31:34 Speaker 1 Uh, Rabbi Hirschfeld was my neighbor in Montreal, and ate by us on Sukkos. He didn't have a sukkah 'cause he lived in an apartment at that time, and he had no place to build a sukkah.

31:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

31:44 Speaker 1 So he lived- he, he, he came to across the street to us, uh, for the sukkah. And, uh, that somehow started even year or two before my bar mitzvah, and my going there every Shabbos and learning with him on Shabbos afternoon. And as I grew older, the learning got more often. Uh, it could be twice a week, or it could be, uh, once in a week and once on Shabbos, but it was pretty, uh, routine and pretty, and pretty strong. Um, so that I knew, so no, it means, um, it means that, uh, the excitement of Torah learning, uh, was already in me from him.

32:32 Speaker 3 Hmm.

32:34 Speaker 1 And I'll s- I'll say more about that. Um, but, um, to, to give it, to give it some nuance, uh, I knew that if I sat and learned with somebody, I was engaged, and I wanted to be engaged. I wanted to be, uh, uh, in the learning world and in the Frum world. It's very important to me. Um, and, uh, what happens is that I'm sitting with decent rebbeim, not drones, decent rebbeim, but I wa- it wasn't happening for me. I was glazing out. But in the afternoon, after Limudei Kodesh, I very often went to the Beis Midrash and sat.

33:34 Speaker 3 Hmm.

33:35 Speaker 1 And I sat with all these bachurim that were eight to 10 years older than me, and they didn't mind learning with me. And I said, "I'll learn with you, whatever you're learning, and, uh, you'll, you'll teach me or, you know?" And, uh, it was, was effective and the most beautiful thing is that the yeshiva saw that it was good for me.

33:59 Speaker 3 Hmm.

33:59 Speaker 1 And they let me do it. They let me do-- I didn't ever become full-time in those years, but if it wasn't happening for me, I would leave the class and I would go to the Beis Midrash, and I would find somebody that needed a chavruta, and I learned with them. And so in some ways, the guys in the Beis Midrash also became my friends, even though they were 10 years older than me, uh, many of them. Uh, they were in their 20s, and I was a young teenager.

34:32 Speaker 3 Right.

34:33 Speaker 1 Uh, and, uh, they gave me nicknames, uh, and, uh, I, they liked me, and I used to go to the Farbrengens, the ones my mother let me go to.

34:46 Speaker 3 The ones in New York?

34:47 Speaker 1 In Montreal. No, no. Um, my, my mother, Aliyah Shalom, as, as you can imagine, 'cause she had lost me once, uh, during the war-

34:59 Speaker 3 Right

34:59 Speaker 1 ... was very, very possessive of me. She would not let me go to the Rebbe.

35:02 Speaker 3 And you were the only child.

35:03 Speaker 1 And I was the only child. No way I was gonna go to the Rebbe.

35:07 Speaker 3 How old are you at this point?

35:09 Speaker 1 Uh, in high school when the guys were already going.

35:12 Speaker 3 So post bar mitzvah, right?

35:13 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah. I would say 15, 16, I was putting the-

35:16 Speaker 3 But she didn't let you out of her sight.

35:18 Speaker 1 Nope. No. And the way she did it was very clever. Uh, she would not let me get Canadian citizenship.

35:27 Speaker 3 Right. Or a passport.

35:28 Speaker 1 Or a passport. I was a Dutch citizen.

35:30 Speaker 3 Right.

35:31 Speaker 1 That, you know, as we say in Boston, "And, and a dollar will get you on the T." Um-

35:36 Speaker 3 Right

35:37 Speaker 1 ... so, uh, so, so that was, that was a, a major battle. Why am I telling you this? Um, you asked me what-- I didn't-- so I didn't go to the Rebbe until, until I was probably 20, 21.

35:55 Speaker 3 Right.

35:57 Speaker 1 Uh, and then I went fairly regularly, and by my early 20s, I already had a car. So then I would take people, and those were adventures. It was a seven-hour ride in those days. I don't know what it is today.

36:13 Speaker 3 You were the only one with a car?

36:14 Speaker 1 I was one of the few people-

36:16 Speaker 3 Right

36:16 Speaker 1 ... in the Beis Midrash for sure-

36:17 Speaker 3 Right

36:18 Speaker 1 ... with a car. Um-

36:20 Speaker 3 How did you have a car?

36:22 Speaker 1 I had a car because I was very good at side jobs.

36:26 Speaker 3 I see.

36:27 Speaker 1 Uh, I had a lot of side jobs.

36:30 Speaker 3 As a bachur in the yeshiva?

36:31 Speaker 1 As a bachur, yeah. Uh, I taught, I taught a lot, did a lot of teaching. I was a, a high school teacher in Bells.

36:38 Speaker 3 Hmm.

36:39 Speaker 1 Uh, English.

36:42 Speaker 3 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story, as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonioelo, Torah Mesora, and Atzalaton, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast.

37:34 Speaker 2 Was this something that the yeshiva condoned for most bochurim, or you, or they saw you as-

37:38 Speaker 1 I was living at home

37:40 Speaker 2 Oh, so you weren't a full-blown, like, like under the authority of the yeshiva bochur.

37:45 Speaker 1 I was.

37:45 Speaker 2 You were.

37:46 Speaker 1 In my heart.

37:47 Speaker 2 I know, but I'm saying in practice.

37:48 Speaker 1 Technically speaking, they c- didn't have control over me in that way.

37:51 Speaker 2 So they just kinda let you do your thing.

37:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

37:54 Speaker 2 So you're coming at a young age to this yeshiva.

37:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:56 Speaker 2 You're coming at a young age, and you start hanging around the different characters in the yeshiva. You already s- discussed Rabbi Greenglass, of course. There's, uh, there's Rabbi Manguel. You told me on the phone.

38:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

38:09 Speaker 2 What was he like?

38:11 Speaker 1 Uh...

38:12 Speaker 2 We also had him on this podcast.

38:14 Speaker 1 I know. I know. So, so Nissen Manguel, as we called him, uh-

38:19 Speaker 2 Oh, it wasn't Manguel, it was Manguel

38:21 Speaker 1 ... No, Manguel. Uh, when, uh, when I first got to know him, which wasn't even really directly, he was one of the older guys in the yeshiva.

38:33 Speaker 2 How big was the yeshiva? How many boys were in the yeshiva?

38:36 Speaker 1 In the Beth Midrash?

38:37 Speaker 2 Yes.

38:39 Speaker 1 Um, at its height, I would say between 40 and 60.

38:45 Speaker 2 Okay. Not tiny, but not massive.

38:47 Speaker 1 Not, not massive. It was a small room. The Beth Midrash on Park Avenue was n- was not a big room.

38:52 Speaker 2 Right.

38:53 Speaker 1 Uh, and-

38:53 Speaker 2 Same from the older guys.

38:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. And N- Nissen was there, uh, but he was already, uh, at the university, uh, in those days. He, he asked-

39:08 Speaker 2 I see

39:08 Speaker 1 ... he asked the rabbi permission, uh, unlike me- ... uh, to go, and, uh, and, uh... But anyway, I, I, I knew him, as I said, when he was young and he still was still shaving. Um, and he was-

39:24 Speaker 2 So before you got to the yeshiva. Y- you said-

39:27 Speaker 1 No, I knew him in the yeshiva. He was in the high school, I was in the elementary school.

39:34 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:34 Speaker 1 And I was-

39:34 Speaker 2 So I, I'm, I'm mixing up terms. He-

39:36 Speaker 1 I was moving up from the elementary school to the Beth Midrash

39:38 Speaker 2 I meant the Beth Midrash. I meant the Beth Midrash.

39:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:39 Speaker 2 So when you, when you came to the Beth Midrash, he was already in, in college or university.

39:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:43 Speaker 2 But when you were in the yeshiva-

39:44 Speaker 1 Yeah

39:44 Speaker 2 ... the younger school-

39:46 Speaker 1 He was around

39:46 Speaker 2 ... he was, he was around. But not yet Lubav-

39:48 Speaker 1 He was a high school student

39:48 Speaker 2 ... not yet Lubavitch.

39:50 Speaker 1 He was not yet a Lubavitcher.

39:52 Speaker 2 Right.

39:52 Speaker 1 And he was very s- very funny guy, and he would sit-

39:55 Speaker 2 He was a funny guy?

39:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. He would sit, uh, I remember sitting o- sitting on the roof of the, the high school on Jeanne Mance in Montreal with his chair tilted back, uh, yelling down from the balcony, "„Gefercht zhe in veyts tsu dem rebben!" You know, very sarcastic, "Are you going to the rebbe again?"

40:14 Speaker 2 To the Lubavitch.

40:15 Speaker 1 To, to the bochurim. To the bochurim, yeah.

40:17 Speaker 2 How was he doing? He was learning.

40:18 Speaker 1 He was learning, or whatever he was doing, you know. Uh, and, uh-

40:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, he, he described on the podcast that, like, he was, th- they, they, they, they allowed him in with all kinds of stipulations that they're not gonna teach him chilulus, that they're gonna leave him alone.

40:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:31 Speaker 2 And he's gonna stay his own person.

40:33 Speaker 1 Right.

40:33 Speaker 2 So he was, he would sit on the porch, and he, uh, he ziddle a little bit the Lubavitchers.

40:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, he ziddled a lot, and he was, he was funny, and therefore forgivable. Nobody got angry at him.

40:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

40:44 Speaker 1 Uh, and, uh, he, he, um , also the other way I knew there was a guy, Victor Manguel around, is because we all inherited the textbooks, right? From-

40:57 Speaker 2 Oh, he was, he was Victor.

40:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, he was Victor.

41:00 Speaker 2 Victor Manguel.

41:01 Speaker 1 He was Victor Manguel, yeah. So that's how I knew the Victor part.

41:05 Speaker 2 And you had him in his textb- in the textbooks.

41:07 Speaker 1 I, I had his textbook. Yeah, I yashed his textbook somehow.

41:10 Speaker 2 Victor Manguel.

41:13 Speaker 1 Uh-

41:13 Speaker 2 It's, it's, it's always int- interesting to see how things change over time.

41:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. He became, he bec- I don't know him well now. I mean, I know him to recognize him. Uh, haven't had any serious conversation, which I would like to have with him. Uh, but he was a beautiful neshamah always, uh, with a high capacity for seriousness and a high capacity for humor.

41:37 Speaker 2 Yes.

41:38 Speaker 1 And that's very characteristic of survivors.

41:41 Speaker 2 Interesting. I wanted to just ask you about, did you feel a kinship with him as a survivor?

41:45 Speaker 1 I do.

41:46 Speaker 2 Did you back then?

41:47 Speaker 1 No.

41:47 Speaker 2 You did not?

41:48 Speaker 1 No.

41:50 Speaker 2 And, and, and what did... And I think I, I think I, I told you I would ask you this question. Did you... When you come to this Lubavitch yeshiva, um, most of the... I mean, Rabbi Greenglass and company were actually from Poland.

42:03 Speaker 1 Yes.

42:03 Speaker 2 But they hadn't been in the camps. They had escaped beforehand, right? Through Shanghai. Um, Lubavitch as a whole was not, uh, for the most part, were not survivors directly of, of the Nazis. They were coming from Russia.

42:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:17 Speaker 2 So did you feel at all, um, isolated or separated from, from the rest of the group because of your experience?

42:25 Speaker 1 No. Uh, I did not deal with myself as directly as a survivor until I turned 50.

42:38 Speaker 2 Okay. You were also very, very young when you, like you-

42:41 Speaker 1 I was very, very young

42:42 Speaker 2 ... You... How old were you when you were liberated?

42:45 Speaker 1 The war, the war was over, and I was not yet three.

42:48 Speaker 2 Which was, was very rare for such a young child to survive, right?

42:52 Speaker 1 Uh, I have a colleague in Israel whose PhD was on infant survivors of the Holocaust. So I guess I wasn't that rare.

43:02 Speaker 2 I see.

43:04 Speaker 1 Uh, but, um, so I really did not deal with my story, and my, my European life was very difficult for me. I wanted no part of it. Uh, and eventually I started to look at it, and to start to, to, uh, to ask the questions, and to, uh, do it, do the chronology and try to make sense of what happened. Uh, and, uh, since then it's never left me.

43:31 Speaker 2 Hmm.

43:32 Speaker 1 It's never left me.

43:33 Speaker 2 Since, since you're 50.

43:34 Speaker 1 Since I'm 50.

43:34 Speaker 2 But back in yeshiva you didn't see yourself as a survivor and-

43:37 Speaker 1 No, no, I did not.

43:39 Speaker 2 You saw yourself as a Canadian.

43:40 Speaker 1 More than that- More than that, I did not, um, I didn't wanna know about it. It was a negative.

43:52 Speaker 2 I see.

43:52 Speaker 1 I wanted no part of it.

43:54 Speaker 2 Right.

43:54 Speaker 1 That was then, this is now, I don't wanna hear about it.

43:57 Speaker 2 Right.

43:58 Speaker 1 Uh, and, uh-

43:59 Speaker 2 So what, what did you see yourself as?

44:01 Speaker 1 But, but you asked a, an allied question, uh, which is did the Rabbeim know?

44:08 Speaker 2 Did I ask that?

44:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. In your, in your email.

44:11 Speaker 2 Okay. All right.

44:13 Speaker 1 Did the R- did the Rabbeim know? What did they know about that? So for sure they all knew that my mother had a story.

44:22 Speaker 2 Oh, the Rabbeim in the yeshiva did.

44:24 Speaker 1 Yeshiva, yeah.

44:24 Speaker 2 Oh, I thought you meant the Lubav- Okay. I understand. The Rabbeim.

44:27 Speaker 1 They, they knew that my mother had a story, and that it was quite a story-

44:30 Speaker 2 Right

44:30 Speaker 1 ... of her survival.

44:32 Speaker 2 Right.

44:32 Speaker 1 Uh, and mine. Uh, but the velt, so to speak, in those days did not take the story of children seriously.

44:46 Speaker 2 Right.

44:47 Speaker 1 Uh, today everything a child does we take seriously, but in those days-

44:51 Speaker 2 Right

44:51 Speaker 1 ... it was, you know,

44:56 Speaker 2 Right

44:56 Speaker 1 ... that kind of stuff. Uh, and, and, uh, so, so it never came up for me in yeshiva. In retrospect, if I had 10 kids, uh, in grade seven, let's say, in the yeshiva, I have, I have a photograph of the kids, of my grade seven class in yeshiva. Uh, I think four out of 10 or five out of 10 were survivors.

45:26 Speaker 2 In Montreal?

45:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:27 Speaker 2 And-

45:27 Speaker 1 And we never talked about it.

45:28 Speaker 2 Lubavitcher boys?

45:29 Speaker 1 Yes. Lubavitcher, Nish Lubavitcher. Mostly not Lubavitcher.

45:32 Speaker 2 Right.

45:34 Speaker 1 Uh, no, we never talked about it.

45:36 Speaker 2 Right.

45:39 Speaker 1 Uh-

45:40 Speaker 2 So I guess the theological question or in general the cultural question around the Holocaust was not something that you thought about or c- or, or even wanted to think about at that time.

45:50 Speaker 1 No. What happened was that nobody was talking about the Holocaust until 1961 or '62. The world was not talking about it.

45:59 Speaker 2 Even in the, even the survivors themselves?

46:01 Speaker 1 Even among the surviv- Survivors themselves would sometimes get together.

46:04 Speaker 2 So, so what, what, what, what, what was that? That was just basically we can't, it's too, we-

46:09 Speaker 1 They had no family. Survivors had no families.

46:13 Speaker 2 So-

46:13 Speaker 1 They were all wiped out.

46:14 Speaker 2 So they had no one to talk to?

46:16 Speaker 1 They don't have uncles, they don't have cousins.

46:18 Speaker 2 Sure.

46:18 Speaker 1 They don't have... They don't, you know, you go-

46:19 Speaker 2 I understand

46:19 Speaker 1 ... Shabbos afternoon to family, there's nobody to go to.

46:22 Speaker 2 So there, there's no one to talk to, basically.

46:23 Speaker 1 So they went to each other.

46:25 Speaker 2 No, but why weren't, why weren't they talking about it outwardly?

46:29 Speaker 1 They would talk about times in the camps. They would talk about-

46:34 Speaker 2 You said the world wasn't talking about it. People wouldn't listen to them?

46:37 Speaker 1 Survi- People were not talking about it because they couldn't make sense of it.

46:42 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

46:43 Speaker 1 Couldn't make sense. It was too, it was too impossible. Um, um-

46:49 Speaker 2 So, so w- where do you, you, you're not seeing yourself as a survivor, which makes sense.

46:53 Speaker 1 In those days.

46:54 Speaker 2 I understand, back in those days. What, what did you see yourself as? Were you now part of the Lubavitch community?

46:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:59 Speaker 2 Were you part of Montreal c-

47:00 Speaker 1 I was-

47:00 Speaker 2 You're part of the Lubavitch community

47:01 Speaker 1 ... I was, uh, by through high school, uh, I was really, I was two things. I was three things. Uh, remember the number 'cause I'm gonna forget by the time I get to- ... point two. Uh, the first thing I was was a Lubavitcher, 1,000%.

47:24 Speaker 2 Hm.

47:24 Speaker 1 Going to the Rebbe, uh, Chitas, whi- which I do «על היום הזה» very conscientiously. Uh, long davening. Uh-

47:34 Speaker 2 You were, you were going to the Rebbe at this point?

47:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:36 Speaker 2 When you were older and your mother basically had to let go.

47:40 Speaker 1 I, I needed a passport, you know? I needed, I had other things in the States.

47:43 Speaker 2 Right.

47:44 Speaker 1 And then it the face of the other one. Uh, ask me in the middle of Shmoneh Esreh and I'll remember- ... the name of the, uh-

50:21 Speaker 2 We have a lot of things for middle of Shmoneh Esreh.

50:22 Speaker 1 Right.

50:22 Speaker 2 So number one was you felt like a Lubavitcher. Number two?

50:27 Speaker 1 Number two, I'm living in a different planet in my learning with Rebbe Hirschfeld.

50:34 Speaker 2 So that was separate from the Lubavitch thing.

50:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:36 Speaker 2 It was a individual relationship.

50:37 Speaker 1 He was, he was from Chassidish, uh, Hashpa, Rebbe Hirschfeld.

50:43 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, he was very friendly with Lubavitch. He didn't consider himself a Lubavitcher.

50:48 Speaker 1 Um, no, but, uh, if you pan in on him, at those farbrengens that the rebbe is giving that he's attending-

50:58 Speaker 2 Yeah

50:59 Speaker 1 ... and watch his face.

51:00 Speaker 2 Oh, it's delightful.

51:01 Speaker 1 It's amazing.

51:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:02 Speaker 1 It's amazing.

51:03 Speaker 2 He- like a kid in a candy store.

51:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, no, more than that.

51:08 Speaker 2 More.

51:08 Speaker 1 More than that, yeah. He's Malen BaKodesh. It's an, an amazing thing to watch carefully. Anyway, uh, so he's more than that in terms of his Kesher to Lubavitch. Uh, but, uh, that was a different world. I used- Rebbe Hirschfeld taught me something that I, that the yeshiva, yeshiva supported and buttressed. Uh, but that, that special thing that he taught me, uh, was the fire of Torah.

51:39 Speaker 2 Fire of Torah. What do you mean by that?

51:43 Speaker 1 I can tell you. So I used to go to his house, and he would say, "Zug de Gemara." And I finished, I must have finished every short masachta in, in Shas with him over, you know, he liked that 'cause then you had a sense like you, you, you did something. Um, and I would sit, and I would read, and, "Yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh." Then I would stop. If this happened once every three months, it were, that's an exaggeration already, but it did happen. I would say, "But doesn't it say ba, ba, ba, ba somewhere else?" And he would say, "Dus fake toises," and he would jump. He, he never sat on chairs, he sat on sofas, and he jumped off the sofa like a high-flyer.

52:47 Speaker 2 He learned o- he, he learned himself on a sofa?

52:49 Speaker 1 On a sofa, yeah.

52:51 Speaker 2 Huh.

52:52 Speaker 1 Um, and he, and he jumped, and it's as if I, the, uh, lo- lo- you know, the atomic bomb went off. It was... And those moments when I saw, that's when I saw the fire of the Torah, how the Torah speaks to itself.

53:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

53:09 Speaker 1 How it, it speaks to itself and provokes itself. Um, so that's going on at the same time. It's not happening for me in yeshiva. Yeshiva academically was a little dry.

53:22 Speaker 2 I see.

53:23 Speaker 1 Uh-

53:23 Speaker 2 It's more cultural. Yeshiva is more cultural.

53:25 Speaker 1 It was, it was, it was, for my Neshama, it was unmatchable.

53:29 Speaker 2 Right. Interesting.

53:32 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, the third thing that's happening to me, um, is that I'm reading widely in Limudei Kodesh, you would call it.

53:44 Speaker 2 Which was condoned by the yeshiva or just in your private time, they couldn't control it?

53:51 Speaker 1 Nobody g- would think of getting in the way.

53:54 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

53:56 Speaker 1 I was presenting honestly as a pretty Frum guy-

54:00 Speaker 2 All right

54:00 Speaker 1 ... as into the yeshiva, into the Lubavitch world. What are they gonna chap it with me?

54:05 Speaker 2 I'm saying you're wearing a black-

54:06 Speaker 1 If it ain't broke.

54:07 Speaker 2 You're wearing, you're wearing a black hat?

54:08 Speaker 1 Nobody wore black hats in those days.

54:10 Speaker 2 Oh, what are you wearing, a gray?

54:10 Speaker 1 We wore gray hats.

54:12 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying you're wearing a hat.

54:13 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

54:13 Speaker 2 The fedora.

54:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

54:14 Speaker 2 So you looked the part as a Bachur.

54:15 Speaker 1 Looked, I was the part.

54:17 Speaker 2 You were the part.

54:17 Speaker 1 I was the part.

54:18 Speaker 2 So the, so the-

54:19 Speaker 1 I was, I wasn't, uh-

54:20 Speaker 2 So any Bachur would be reading those books, they wouldn't care?

54:23 Speaker 1 No, and I knew other Bachurim.

54:25 Speaker 2 Uh, interesting.

54:26 Speaker 1 More Spitz Lubavitch than me that were doing that also.

54:28 Speaker 2 Interesting.

54:29 Speaker 1 They used to borrow my books.

54:30 Speaker 2 Interesting. And the yeshiva knew about it and didn't care?

54:33 Speaker 1 Not really. Not re- I, certainly Rabbi Greenglass never opened his mouth.

54:38 Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's, I've heard it from others, Rabbi Greenglass literally didn't care about this kind of stuff. He, his mind wasn't there.

54:44 Speaker 1 No.

54:44 Speaker 2 What did he care about?

54:47 Speaker 1 Emet v'Emunah.

54:48 Speaker 2 Emet v'Emunah.

54:49 Speaker 1 Yirash Mayim.

54:50 Speaker 2 S- sincerity.

54:50 Speaker 1 You're real Yirash Mayim, and don't fool yourself.

54:54 Speaker 2 Honesty.

54:55 Speaker 1 Uh, it's more complicated than honesty.

54:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

54:59 Speaker 1 Honesty and Shemiras Hamitzvos. Uh, when you do a mitzvah, do you experience the Bafel? Do you experience the holiness of the command?

55:11 Speaker 2 Right.

55:12 Speaker 1 Uh, and when you're walking in the street-

55:15 Speaker 2 A- as opposed to what? You could do a mitzvah just as like a ritual, as like a, as a-

55:19 Speaker 1 You did it because that's what you didn't do.

55:20 Speaker 2 That's what you do.

55:21 Speaker 1 It's not Chamadreka.

55:22 Speaker 2 But say, are you feel-

55:23 Speaker 1 I'm not knocking it

55:23 Speaker 2 ... are you feeling that-

55:24 Speaker 1 But-

55:24 Speaker 2 ... that this is God telling you to do this right now?

55:27 Speaker 1 Getlochkait, Getlochkait, Getlochkait. You're in the presence of your maker.

55:31 Speaker 2 And if you're reading Aristotle in the afternoon, that's not a student? I'm not sure you're reading Aristotle, but whatever you're reading. Uh, he's not, you seem like more like a Plato guy, so I don't wanna offend.

55:55 Speaker 1 You, you have to understand something. You have to understand something. This idea that if you read Limudei Cho, it's gonna make you kalia, uh, for the most part, for the most part, is a nightmare that never happened.

56:26 Speaker 2 In general or-

56:27 Speaker 1 In general.

56:27 Speaker 2 In general.

56:29 Speaker 1 How do I know this? Because I was a university chaplain, a Frum one, for almost 50 years.

56:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

56:41 Speaker 1 And thousands, thousands of students, A, became Frum because of me, and thousands of them, uh, were Frum already when they came.

56:51 Speaker 2 Right.

56:52 Speaker 1 And took classes.

56:53 Speaker 2 Right.

56:55 Speaker 1 And were Shomer Mitzvahs. And never once in 50 years did a student ever come to me and say, "I just was in a philosophy class, and I lost all my emunah."

57:08 Speaker 2 So wait, wait. There, there is halakhah-

57:10 Speaker 1 It's a myth

57:10 Speaker 2 ... but there is halakhah about not learning sefarim chitzonim. There is. There... It's not, it's not completely out of no- nothing.

57:17 Speaker 1 So one has to define-

57:19 Speaker 2 Okay

57:19 Speaker 1 ... sefarim chitzonim.

57:20 Speaker 2 Okay.

57:22 Speaker 1 Uh, there is trash that I would not recommend anybody read. It's 'cause it's a waste of time. Uh, but if it teaches you, if it teaches you about how the world works and how to get healthy, and if it teaches you, uh, the core of Maaseh Bereishit, and if it teaches you above all how to think and how to think logically and think well, that's not sefarim chitzonim. That's the Emet.

57:53 Speaker 2 So what, what then is the difference between... I, I know there's a difference, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not playing dumb, but just, just to, just to, just to put it out f- just to pr-present it for you to answer, what is the difference then between Torah Im Ada or let's say Modern Orthodox that also believes that it's all about, you know, halakhah and, and, and you have to yirashamayim, but also an allowance for, uh, openness to science and modern... Uh, what's the difference between that and what was going on in Lubavitch of Montreal? What's, what's, what's the fundamental difference?

58:25 Speaker 1 In, in Lubavitch in Montreal, uh, I think I had two major gifts. Uh, the major gifts are yirashamayim, that never left me. Uh, I don't wanna make myself into the biggest tzadik. I mean, uh, this is... I have to-

58:45 Speaker 2 But-

58:45 Speaker 1 ... watch my words carefully. But-

58:46 Speaker 2 But that's yirashamayim distinct from what you would get in yishuv university?

58:49 Speaker 1 Let me, let me finish. Is, is what I got from Lubavitch is yir- yeah, distinct from that, that I would get from, from YU. Yeah. In YU, the Hashkafah is for sure that you be a Frum person and so on, but it's not neshamah care.

59:04 Speaker 2 I see.

59:04 Speaker 1 It's not neshamah care in the same way-

59:06 Speaker 2 I see

59:07 Speaker 1 ... that the Rebbe wants to know what's going on with each bachur, and there's a written settel-

59:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

59:12 Speaker 1 ... that goes regularly back and forth from seven seventy.

59:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:17 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, there's a literature of this, uh, of this back and forth from the Rebbe about... without the names of the Talmidim, but it's, it's, it's out there. Uh, and, and neshamah care. Neshamah care, uh, that's the, that's the, the colossal difference.

59:38 Speaker 2 So yirashamayim and neshamah care.

59:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:44 Speaker 2 So in your mind, it, it sounds like-

59:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

59:47 Speaker 2 ... the, the, the distinction of secular studies versus not secular studies is in many ways besides the point. Is besides the point, and that's how it was being operated in Montreal at the time.

59:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:01 Speaker 2 Rabbi Greenglass wasn't learning this stuff himself, was he? He just-

1:00:04 Speaker 1 Secular?

1:00:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. He just didn't care if that's what... If you wanna do that-

1:00:08 Speaker 1 He looked at you.

1:00:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:10 Speaker 1 And he saw where you were.

1:00:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:13 Speaker 1 And he either trusted you or he didn't trust you.

1:00:15 Speaker 2 So he had a bigger problem, from what you're telling me, and not a problem, but he, uh, he, he made a point about the second piece of cake before davening but didn't make a point about the fact that you're reading, uh, da-

1:00:26 Speaker 1 He wasn't interested in the cake.

1:00:27 Speaker 2 He was interested in you eating something that you didn't need to eat.

1:00:29 Speaker 1 It wasn't me.

1:00:30 Speaker 2 No, but the other guy.

1:00:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:32 Speaker 2 He was interested in, in the other guy learning what iskafia meant.

1:00:34 Speaker 1 That's right.

1:00:35 Speaker 2 But he didn't care to teach you about iskafia with regards to reading another book.

1:00:39 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:00:40 Speaker 2 Interesting.

1:00:41 Speaker 1 I was really interested in iskafia. Uh-

1:00:44 Speaker 2 No, but he didn't make a point to like, uh-

1:00:46 Speaker 1 No, no, no. But, but-

1:00:46 Speaker 2 ... "I don't, don't read that."

1:00:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:49 Speaker 2 It's very interesting. So what do you think changed? Why do you think-- I don't know if you wanna wade into like a cultural critique, but what, what do you think changed? W-w-where, where, where, where did the Haredism take hold in your mind?

1:01:04 Speaker 1 What Haredi? You mean, you mean that, uh-

1:01:06 Speaker 2 This kind of-

1:01:06 Speaker 1 ... secular studies?

1:01:07 Speaker 2 As, as, as the bogeyman. Like you said, it's lo hayav le nivra, but you ask the typical person today, and they'll tell you that this is the devil incarnate.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 It's a toysgummer.

1:01:17 Speaker 2 Which, which in itself is a-

1:01:18 Speaker 1 It's a toysgummer

1:01:18 Speaker 2 ... Christian, Christian idea I just brought in.

1:01:20 Speaker 1 It's a toysgummer. It's a toysgummer. It's lo hayav le nivra. Uh, that you g- If you're gonna learn, uh, uh, you know, uh, how the planets, uh, go, and if you're gonna learn advanced math, and if you're gonna learn, uh, um, you know, geography and history, you're gonna become out of character. That's such ridiculous. It never happened. It never... I ne- If it happened, I never saw it. Let me put it that way.

1:01:48 Speaker 2 Yeah. I was just talking to someone. I was talking to Yossi Lipskier earlier this morning, and I w- we came up in conversation the idea of which idea is the central idea, like the sun, that everything else orbits around. Now, I, I don't think either of us here, we don't necessarily believe that, but there's, there's a, there's a core ... thing, and then everything orbits around that. And like, uh, I think the Philip Rebbe says that when you have, like, an idea that you're, you're, like munachim, that you're in, in, that you're... that's like, that's, you- you're focused on, everything else that you absorb, everything else that you learn comes back to that central idea, right? You, you don't get shifted by things that you see elsewhere. And so the question, like, what, what you're describing to me is, i-if a, if a bachur has a center of gravity that is, you said, uh, Yirash Mayim and the Shamayker, the way you put it, like, uh, uh, the, the s- the sense of a bafel. There's a God in my life, there's a rebbe in my life, there's, there, there's, there's chassidis in my life. If that's my center of gravity, then the fact that I have, for whatever reason, curiosity to read other books, you don't have to read those books. Nobody's gonna encourage you to read them. But if you're into that, that's not the issue because it's c- your, your center of gravity is the same, is what you're telling me. I-

1:03:06 Speaker 2 whereas, whereas if someone doesn't read those books but never establishes a center of gravity in, in Yirash Mayim and just is a frum because he doesn't... And the frumkeit is defined by what he doesn't read, then he's like a twig in the, in the wind.

1:03:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:03:22 Speaker 2 Like, right?

1:03:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:03:24 Speaker 2 It sounds like that's what you're telling me.

1:03:25 Speaker 1 Something like that, yeah.

1:03:27 Speaker 2 It's very interesting. I mean, I, I agree with that. Uh, so I'm biased to it, obviously, I'll be honest. But, um, it's, it's interesting that... And you're not the first one to tell me that, that there were some people in Montreal who were, you know, chassidim from the Alte Heim, let's say, and very, very respected people who seemed to care that way as well. They were more interested in, in the core of who you were as a person.

1:03:51 Speaker 1 That was the issue.

1:03:53 Speaker 2 I mean, you would think that's what it is. That-

1:03:55 Speaker 1 That's what the issue is, yeah.

1:03:58 Speaker 2 Huh. I-it just, I mean, uh, look, I don't wanna, I don't, I don't wanna schlep you into the whole cultural morass of this stuff. But, like, the radical proposition that lies in that, especially today where, where things have gone, that like, it, it would just... Like, I don't know if there's a more destructive or subversive idea to the norms that we have today, where everything is about, about like, um, unif- not, I wouldn't say uniformity, but like r-the rules prescribing ideas and thought, and it's like complete... In a way, what you're describing, it's like completely missing the point. The point is, do you trust the individual that he is in-- that his center of gravity is solid, that there's a God in his life? It sounds, it sounds so simple, but it's very interesting. Hmm.

1:04:49 Speaker 1 To understand what it means to be a mitzvah, right?

1:04:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:04:55 Speaker 1 That you and I stood at Har Sinai, and we committed.

1:04:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:00 Speaker 1 We committed, and that's a serious commitment. And, and that that is a commitment that somehow we, we know happened, and we feel it in our bones, and it's alive for us.

1:05:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:13 Speaker 1 That commitment is alive for us. It's not, it's not something somebody told us.

1:05:18 Speaker 2 Right. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Vasili Gani, the first mimer, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Vasili Gani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Vasili Gani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production: the films, original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. No, but you're a Yid that, you're a Yid that's been around many other Kreis. And you're not like some, like, narrow Lubavitcher.

1:06:27 Speaker 1 No, I'm not.

1:06:27 Speaker 2 Right? A-and you're telling me that this idea is something that you feel you got from Lubavitch. It's not just this-

1:06:34 Speaker 1 Yes

1:06:35 Speaker 2 ... uh, and, and in a way, it's so interesting how you distill that idea, which on one hand you would think is so simple and maybe generic, and you're saying, "No, that is the core that I got from Lubavitch." It's fascinating.

1:06:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I got, I got Hashpah and, and behavior and, um, honesty about the self-

1:07:03 Speaker 2 Huh

1:07:03 Speaker 1 ... from, from the world of Lubavitch. Uh, but, uh, what's mechayimi, uh, as I grow older, is my learning.

1:07:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:16 Speaker 1 I mean, it always did.

1:07:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:18 Speaker 1 But especially now. It's very interesting. I'm giving two shiurim and, uh, uh, and, uh, this is what, uh, what still gets me excited.

1:07:29 Speaker 2 The preparation and the giving over.

1:07:31 Speaker 1 Preparation, yeah. And, uh, um, and so, so, so I'm able to teach what I'm able to teach because I don't want to set myself up as a tzadik here, but I understand Yirash Mayim.

1:07:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:07:52 Speaker 1 Um, I understand it, or I think I do. And, and, um, and so I have that from Lubavitch. Uh, and I've tried to be responsible about what I teach. Uh, and then the love of learning itself, the, the fire in learning, uh, the excitement in learning I have from, from Rebbe Herschel.

1:08:23 Speaker 2 Why do you think Lubavitch has that? Why do you think Lubavitch has that and not... Why, why, why, why, what, why is it so hard f- for others to attain that in your mind, or for others to communicate that in their own systems?

1:08:37 Speaker 1 Because, because Lubavitch had Rebbes, and those Rebbes knew what the heck they were doing. They really understood what they were doing.

1:08:50 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:08:51 Speaker 1 Uh, and, um, for our time, um, how to clean up one's mashava and how to live socially so that those values were reinforced, that's the Friar the Rebbe. Friar the Rebbe, uh, was in La Nieznati. I haven't heard anybody talking about him this way, but I, this is my take on him, that Friar the Rebbe was a journalist.

1:09:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:09:41 Speaker 1 He wasn't a, he wasn't stam a writer. He had a fabulously fertile mind, and he saw stuff.

1:09:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:50 Speaker 1 And he also understood, he also understood, who knows, he probably got it from his father, but, but he, he, he g- he understood, um, that, um, you have to talk to people, and you have to give them a social context for living. And for American Jewry especially, that's what they needed to hear. And they had to be told that they were wrong when they were wrong in very kind ways. I remember sitting with David Vichna Yisrael Shemtov in the Yeshiva on Sunday afternoon organizing, uh, the Lag BaOmer parade, and what b- what banners were we making? SOS. You know what SOS stands for? This is the '50s, and the, yeah, '50s. Save our Shabbos.

1:10:54 Speaker 2 Save our Shabbos.

1:10:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, it was still going on. This is a, a post, uh, recession-

1:11:03 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:03 Speaker 1 ... uh, uh, piece of culture. Um, but you have American Jewry, which with serious exception has no Limud Torah whatsoever.

1:11:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:15 Speaker 1 Has no Limud Torah whatsoever. Uh, so you have the most ignorant Jews in the world outside of the Bund, uh, living here. Um, and, uh, and, uh, and, and the Rebbe came here, Friar the Rebbe, and they said to the Rebbe, "Well, people have to work here on Shabbos." It was right after the Depression.

1:11:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:44 Speaker 1 Um, and, um, let, let me tell you a post-Depression story before-

1:11:51 Speaker 2 Sure

1:11:51 Speaker 1 ... we end. Uh, but, but the Friar the Rebbe understood that that's not gonna cut it, and he said, "No." He says, "We're not allowed to work on Shabbos, see?"

1:12:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:02 Speaker 1 And he knew how to say that, and he knew that he had to make that an agenda, and he knew that Jewish education, the religious release hour, you know, he had that, and he fought that, and he fought it well. And he fought it, and half the time he was already , he couldn't speak.

1:12:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 And, and he did it by journaling.

1:12:24 Speaker 2 So wait, so, so you, the, you're, you're, you're describing the r- the Friar the Rebbe as more of like a, like a organizer, a journalist and or- organizer.

1:12:34 Speaker 1 Oh, I see, I see him as a, as a visionary.

1:12:37 Speaker 2 Visionary.

1:12:38 Speaker 1 As a visionary, as a person who gave shape to a time.

1:12:42 Speaker 2 I see.

1:12:44 Speaker 1 Uh, he unders- he understood priorities.

1:12:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:12:48 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was better than him in getting us there.

1:12:53 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:12:54 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe would not have gotten us there if the Friar the Rebbe had not set those priorities.

1:13:00 Speaker 2 So, so going back to what you, how you brought up the Rebbe, because I was gonna ask you about it, how the Re- the Rebbe fit into this ident- identity or life of yours in Montreal, which was on one hand you said in Lubavitch, but also very much your own m- mix of Lubavitch and Hersbrun and, and everything else. Um, you, you describe, and you also, you, you answered the question of why Lubavitch was able to have this sense when others weren't, and you're saying it was the Rebbeim.

1:13:31 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

1:13:32 Speaker 2 So, and you just used the word vision. It seems like what you're saying is that the-

1:13:41 Speaker 1 If you read through, if you read... Excuse me for interrupting you.

1:13:43 Speaker 2 No problem.

1:13:44 Speaker 1 If you read through Hayom Yam-

1:13:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:13:47 Speaker 1 ... where the Rebbe is finding the most pithy pisgamim-

1:13:55 Speaker 2 Hmm

1:13:55 Speaker 1 ... uh, that he could find from all the Rebbes.

1:13:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:59 Speaker 1 But particularly from, from Ishver.

1:14:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:03 Speaker 1 Um, and what he writes in there, what he writes in there about what a Yid needs to be doing and the priorities that a Yid has to have, and how hard you have to work to become honest.

1:14:16 Speaker 2 That's what you mean by journalism, the incisive kind of, like being able to get to the bottom of the story?

1:14:20 Speaker 1 I'm talking, I'm talking about, um, Ha- Hayom, it's not Hayom Yam. I'm talking about, uh, what do you call it? The, the Kitte Deborim.

1:14:28 Speaker 2 Oh, I see. Oh, 'cause there, there's also this sense of a journalist being able to understand what the story is and being incisive.

1:14:35 Speaker 1 No, I mean journaling as the act of writing-

1:14:37 Speaker 2 I see

1:14:38 Speaker 1 ... writing diaries.

1:14:38 Speaker 2 So now, so there's a separate thing here of being a visionary-

1:14:41 Speaker 1 Yes

1:14:41 Speaker 2 ... and you're, and, and the visiona- the way you're describing it to me, there's many times where it's described-

1:14:45 Speaker 1 He's, he's, he's a literary raconteur. He tells stories, the Friar the Rebbe-

1:14:51 Speaker 2 The, the na-

1:14:52 Speaker 1 About people.

1:14:53 Speaker 2 Right. No, no, I, I understand. I, but I, I mentioned-

1:14:56 Speaker 1 The opening pages of the Kitte Deborim, right?

1:14:58 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:14:58 Speaker 1 It's a group of people sitting together. Rebbe's there at a farbrengen.

1:15:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:02 Speaker 1 And he's, and he's talking about the fact of that if, uh, if you're in, in-

1:15:06 Speaker 2 Mashava, yeah

1:15:06 Speaker 1 ... if that I'm thinking about you, the mashava, and that has an impact.

1:15:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:11 Speaker 1 And that has an impact.

1:15:12 Speaker 2 And where, where were you last year?

1:15:13 Speaker 1 That's right.

1:15:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, but no, but you... So I, I mixed two things that you're saying. You said first the Frierdiker Rebbe-

1:15:19 Speaker 1 That's journalism

1:15:19 Speaker 2 ... journalism. Then there's a second thing, a visionary, and the way you're describing visionary very often when he-

1:15:24 Speaker 1 He saw the machlah.

1:15:26 Speaker 2 Right. Very often-

1:15:26 Speaker 1 That's the visionary.

1:15:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:28 Speaker 1 That's his vision. He saw the machlah, and he saw it accurately.

1:15:31 Speaker 2 And he knew how to prioritize because that's giving shape. Priorities give-

1:15:35 Speaker 1 Yes

1:15:35 Speaker 2 ... something shape.

1:15:35 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:15:36 Speaker 2 'Cause very often when you talk about Rabbeim-

1:15:38 Speaker 1 Good

1:15:38 Speaker 2 ... visionaries, vision-

1:15:39 Speaker 1 Good

1:15:39 Speaker 2 ... visionary, visionaries is-

1:15:41 Speaker 1 Good.

1:15:42 Speaker 2 Well, you're say- I'm just saying what you're saying.

1:15:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:44 Speaker 2 Visionaries, visionaries very often are, when it comes to tzadikim, is HaRuach HaKodesh. They see things in the heavens that we don't see.

1:15:52 Speaker 1 You don't think, you don't think that his seeing that was felt in American Judaism is Shabbos and learning? That you don't think that that's Ruach HaKodesh?

1:16:04 Speaker 2 No, no, it is, but-

1:16:04 Speaker 1 What do you think Ruach HaKodesh is?

1:16:06 Speaker 2 No, but the way you're describing it, it g- it is giving it, at least to me, more shape, where it's not just vision in the sense of seeing beyond.

1:16:15 Speaker 1 He's not seeing atikyo.

1:16:16 Speaker 2 It's, it's, it's, it's-

1:16:17 Speaker 1 He's not seeing, uh-

1:16:18 Speaker 2 It's about shaping a vision

1:16:19 Speaker 1 ... what do you call it? Uh-

1:16:19 Speaker 2 It's about shaping a vision, and sh- vision comes by, by making the points of where this vision is going to draw its lines.

1:16:28 Speaker 1 He's not hanging out-

1:16:28 Speaker 2 Its priorities

1:16:29 Speaker 1 ... he's not hanging out in ństwa.

1:16:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:31 Speaker 1 He's, he's really living, uh, uh, very much among the people and listening to them, listening to them when they say, "In America, we've gotta work on Shabbos."

1:16:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:47 Speaker 1 He says, "No, you don't. Sorry, buddy, you don't have to do that." And he gets this piece of Torah, right? And he says that on Rosh Hashanah, a person's parnasah is decided down to the last penny.

1:17:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:02 Speaker 1 And, and, and you can work Shabbos, and you can work Tuesday, and it won't make any difference whatsoever. Whatever is decided in Shmini Atzeret.

1:17:10 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:17:10 Speaker 1 This is the Rebbe's, the Frierdiker Rebbe's.

1:17:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, uh, I, I once, uh, I, uh, there's a maamer in contracion from the Frierdiker Rebbe which I think was the first... I don't think it was from the first trip. I think it was the first year that he was here.

1:17:23 Speaker 1 Bikur Chicago?

1:17:24 Speaker 2 No, no, I don't think it was Bikur Chicago.

1:17:25 Speaker 1 No.

1:17:25 Speaker 2 I think it was the next time-

1:17:26 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:17:26 Speaker 2 ... when he was... I don't remember. I don't remember which year it was. If it was the first year when he came... I don't know. So it must've been the, it must've been that trip, Bikur Chicago, but when he was already in New York for Rosh Hashanah in Brownsville.

1:17:39 Speaker 1 Uh-huh. Yeah.

1:17:40 Speaker 2 And it's very interesting, the whole mashal of the maamer, it's a Rosh Hashanah maamer, the whole mashal is from an American courtroom.

1:17:48 Speaker 1 Huh? I didn't know that.

1:17:49 Speaker 2 With a prosecutor and, and, and a defender and a defendant, a def- a defender, a, a lawyer, and, um, and, and like the jury and the judge and how it's all about narrative, how it's all about, like, when it comes to the, the final verdict, it's all about, it's all about taking all the facts and spinning them one way or another. And to me, it was just like, you could see that the Frierdiker Rebbe is, is not in Russia or Europe anymore. He's in America.

1:18:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:17 Speaker 2 He's talking to an American audience, and he's using their frame of reference, right? In, in Russia, he spoke all the time, also in America later on, but he spoke all the time about the, the, the melech and the tsarin, like the, you know, the, the king's court. But here he's talking about a legal court. It's very interesting. And the, the thing that I'm, that I'm picking up what you're saying is that there's a mix of the vision, the high-level vision, but the, but you're, you're articulating it, you're articulating it in down to earth as well. The vision that, that, that is, that is s- that, that charts the course for everybody, gives everybody not only the vision that he had but the vision that he gave for everyone to follow. What, what-- How did the Rebbe strike you when you first met him? How, how did... 'Cause we're still talking in the Rebbe as an idea here or as a, you know, like what he did. But you're this, you're this, you're this bocher in Montreal who finally gets a passport, and you, you come, you, you, you arrange for yechidas. How-- What exactly was the setup?

1:19:19 Speaker 1 I had, I had, uh, one major yechidas with the Rebbe and, uh, smaller things also. The major yechidas with the Rebbe, I spent about 45 minutes. They were starting to buzz on the phone already, "Paaleh, get out of there."

1:19:34 Speaker 2 This is as a bocher?

1:19:35 Speaker 1 This was... I was... No, I was already, uh, in Hillel at that time.

1:19:40 Speaker 2 So you didn't go as a bocher for yechidas?

1:19:42 Speaker 1 Uh, my first yechidas was already, uh, when I was, uh, you know, out there. Yeah.

1:19:50 Speaker 2 So, so-

1:19:51 Speaker 1 But I went to farbrengens.

1:19:52 Speaker 2 You would go to farbrengens.

1:19:52 Speaker 1 I went to farbrengens. Yeah.

1:19:53 Speaker 2 But you didn't insist on going to yechidas.

1:19:55 Speaker 1 No.

1:19:55 Speaker 2 You weren't interested?

1:19:57 Speaker 1 No. I was scared.

1:19:58 Speaker 2 You were scared?

1:19:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:00 Speaker 2 Were you writing to the Rebbe or was-

1:20:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes the Rebbe would write me back a long letter, uh, and he would send it to the yeshiva, and it was immediately intercepted. Uh-

1:20:11 Speaker 2 Really?

1:20:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. And Green- Greenglass said, "I-- You got a letter from the Rebbe. Uh, let me go over it with you."

1:20:17 Speaker 2 And he would?

1:20:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:20 Speaker 2 And you appreciated that?

1:20:21 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

1:20:25 Speaker 2 Huh. So you didn't wanna go into yechidas as a, as a, as a, as a bocher?

1:20:30 Speaker 1 I was scared. I was scared.

1:20:31 Speaker 2 Scared of what?

1:20:32 Speaker 1 Of the Rebbe.

1:20:33 Speaker 2 What do you mean? Every- everyone else was going in. What, what were you scared? You were scared that he was gonna-

1:20:37 Speaker 1 I was scared

1:20:38 Speaker 2 ... that he was gonna trap you? You're sca- you're scared that he's gonna see through you? What were you scared of?

1:20:44 Speaker 1 I think I was s- I was scared to be with such a great person.

1:20:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. You wanted a little bit of distance.

1:20:51 Speaker 1 I, I always want distance, yeah. Yeah.

1:20:57 Speaker 2 And Rabbi Greenglass didn't mind?

1:21:00 Speaker 1 Nobody pushed me.

1:21:01 Speaker 2 Nobody pushed you.

1:21:02 Speaker 1 Nobody pushed me.

1:21:03 Speaker 2 So you c- you c-

1:21:04 Speaker 1 It's very smart Very smart. Very smart

1:21:09 Speaker 2 Sounds like, sounds like it, yeah.

1:21:10 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

1:21:10 Speaker 2 So you, so you first-

1:21:11 Speaker 1 It's all under S- and each bachur, uh, the Rebbe was into. Um-

1:21:18 Speaker 2 You're saying they were communicating with the Rebbe about each bachur?

1:21:21 Speaker 1 Yes. If you look at the new Sefer on Greenglass, there's a lot of, uh, back and forth on that.

1:21:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:29 Speaker 1 You'll, you'll see it.

1:21:31 Speaker 2 Hmm, fascinating. But you, what, you, so you finally went to Yechidus after you already-

1:21:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:21:37 Speaker 2 And anything special happened over there?

1:21:39 Speaker 1 A lot of it, very good things. Uh, what, what happened was that, uh, the Rebbe would send me people. There was p- p- he'd send me kids, "Uh, if you're gonna go to college, go to Pollock."

1:21:54 Speaker 2 This is before the Chabad House?

1:21:56 Speaker 1 Before the Chabad House, yeah.

1:21:58 Speaker 2 Why did you choose-

1:21:59 Speaker 1 After also

1:22:00 Speaker 2 Why did you choose not to go the typical route of shluchus and M- and Merkaz?

1:22:04 Speaker 1 'Cause I was educated. I was educated, and I was, uh, uh, secularly.

1:22:10 Speaker 2 You're saying you were qualified to have this job?

1:22:12 Speaker 1 More than that. Uh, yes, that's one way to put it. I, but I mean more than you're implying by it. What, what I mean is I, I'm not sure that, that, that somebody who hasn't gone to a university understands the institution.

1:22:30 Speaker 2 Oh, so but why couldn't you take your understanding, open up a Chabad House?

1:22:34 Speaker 1 Uh, well, I did it differently. I b-

1:22:37 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:22:38 Speaker 1 ... I basically did open a Chabad House, except I didn't call it that.

1:22:41 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

1:22:42 Speaker 1 Um-

1:22:43 Speaker 2 And they gave you the job because of your credentials?

1:22:45 Speaker 1 My credentials and who I was.

1:22:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:47 Speaker 1 And I had a very tough interview in which they asked me a lot of questions about Martin Buber and Franz Rosenzweig. And I had my, I had, there was a team of, uh, guys that were at the interview, and they, kicking me under the table, "Shut up already." You know? Y- y- you, you said enough. Um, like, what did I know about Martin Buber and Franz Rosenzweig? But, um-

1:23:09 Speaker 2 What drew you to this avoda? Well, uh, wa- was it, was it the inspiration of Hafetz Hayyim? Was it, uh-

1:23:17 Speaker 1 Before all that. It was before all that. You're talk- we're talking-

1:23:21 Speaker 2 Well, the Rebbe's speaking about this in the '50s already

1:23:23 Speaker 1 I started my job in 1967.

1:23:26 Speaker 2 Okay. There were shluchim by then?

1:23:28 Speaker 1 No.

1:23:29 Speaker 2 Uh, my grandfather was a shliach in Philadelphia by then.

1:23:33 Speaker 1 He was in Philadelphia doing Lubavitcher work. The phrase shluchim didn't exist.

1:23:38 Speaker 2 I see. College campuses-

1:23:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:23:41 Speaker 2 ... wa- wasn't a thing?

1:23:45 Speaker 1 Not really.

1:23:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:47 Speaker 1 Not really. But I saw it as a, um, a way to bring all the pieces of my life together.

1:23:53 Speaker 2 I see.

1:23:54 Speaker 1 Um, uh, kiruv, which at the time I believe that's very good at.

1:24:01 Speaker 2 Who inspired you to that? Was that just a personal gravitation? Was that a, like, a Lubavitch idea? Where did the kiruv come from? Where did that come, where did that idea come from?

1:24:12 Speaker 1 Kiruv was, uh, what Yidden were supposed to be doing. That's how I was raised in Lubavitch.

1:24:18 Speaker 2 In Lubavitch?

1:24:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:24:19 Speaker 2 So it was a Lubavitch idea.

1:24:20 Speaker 1 Totally.

1:24:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:24:22 Speaker 1 Totally. Uh, if, if, uh, if two people come together in the world, it's 'cause the HaKadosh Baruch Hu sends them to each other, and one needs the other.

1:24:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:37 Speaker 1 Um, and, and, uh, I believe that deeply. The, the, the things that, that I believed very deeply, uh, that really influenced my work are straight out of the Tanya. Uh, the biggest one, the biggest one is that, is that I was able to believe in my body the deepest, richest way that the Yidden out there want Torah, and they didn't know it.

1:25:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:24 Speaker 1 But I did.

1:25:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:27 Speaker 1 And you have no idea how well that worked for me. I was fearless.

1:25:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:25:36 Speaker 1 I was fearless.

1:25:41 Speaker 2 So in, in-

1:25:41 Speaker 1 In 1967, I'm walking with a friend at, not on my own campus, another campus, and there's a guy sitting in the lotus position, Chassidish how they sit like this, uh, with long hair. And-

1:25:59 Speaker 2 This is deep in the, in the hippies movement

1:26:01 Speaker 1 ... deep in the hippies movement. And, uh, I go over to him and I said, uh, "Hi, my name is, uh, how about if you join me for a l- for a little Shabbos get-together tonight at 9:30?" "Fabulous, man, I'm coming." I thought he was a Yid. Uh, did I know this guy? No. But I, I felt something. I looked at him. I said, "I'm gonna risk it." And, uh, that, that's, that koyach to know that what I had, I knew that he wanted, even if he didn't know it, worked for me spectacularly.

1:26:49 Speaker 2 And where did that koyach come from?

1:26:51 Speaker 1 Straight from, straight out of the Tanya.

1:26:53 Speaker 2 Out of Tanya.

1:26:54 Speaker 1 Straight out of the Tanya.

1:26:56 Speaker 2 Where in Tanya?

1:26:58 Speaker 1 I would have to look it up.

1:26:58 Speaker 2 No, no, you're saying the ideas of the Tanya, nefshol hakios and all these things.

1:27:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, but the nefshol hakios, you know, uh, uh, was-

1:27:05 Speaker 2 Av, Avos Terah's.

1:27:06 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:27:07 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay. So the, the, the general ideas.

1:27:10 Speaker 1 Straight out of the Talmud.

1:27:12 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:27:12 Speaker 1 Nowhere else.

1:27:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:27:14 Speaker 1 Book learning.

1:27:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, you, you, you said in that interview that, that the book learning is a way that you, you make sense with, uh, um, your almost your reconciliation of faith as you, I guess, as you got older and you thought of the, the Holocaust.

1:27:34 Speaker 1 I never had a crisis of faith.

1:27:36 Speaker 2 Never a crisis of faith?

1:27:37 Speaker 1 Never.

1:27:38 Speaker 2 But you, you still spoke of it as a kind of healing when you learn.

1:27:42 Speaker 1 Listen, I had bad stuff happening to me.

1:27:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:45 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, in, in Bergen-Belsen, in the last two weeks, there was no food.