Ep. 71 // "50 Years on Shlichus" w/ Mrs. Esther Goldstein

00:00 Speaker 1 And we arrived in Ann Arbor in a little apartment. I was so excited 'cause, uh, it was fresh air. I could sleep outside if you wanted me to. It was like, wow. And we walk in, and there's new carpet. I never s- a new carpet. I didn't care how small the apartment was. We took our clothes. We made a bed. Rolled it u- you know, just... And then in the morning, I said, I said to my husband, "So w- are we gonna meet the Yidden?" He said, "Yeah, come. I'll take you on campus." I said, "The Yidden are there?" "Yeah, the Yidden are there." And I was very innocent. He set up a little card table with Nichayek music, and he said, "You stand here, and you ask people, 'Are you Jewish?'" This was the first time in my life I'd ever did something like that.

00:55 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Benji Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All- all righty. We are here in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with Mrs...

01:18 Speaker 1 Esther Goldstein.

01:19 Speaker 2 Mrs. Esther Goldstein, shlucha in Ann Arbor with her husband, Rabbi Aharon Goldstein-

01:25 Speaker 1 Aharon Goldstein

01:25 Speaker 2 ... for fifty years, kaneyinehora.

01:27 Speaker 1 That's, that's correct.

01:28 Speaker 2 And many, many more years, Im Reiz Shom.

01:31 Speaker 1 Amen.

01:32 Speaker 2 And, uh, I've been here, uh, the whole day and will be here tomorrow working on a, a multi-video project for the upcoming Celebration Fifty, Im Reiz Shom. And it's always beautiful to begin a conversation like this, uh, after, after that kind of introduction and learning about what you've been doing and your family and your children who are here with you. It's very, very beautiful. So before we begin, just for everyone listening, please like and subscribe the podcast on the platforms that you are listening to. It does help with the podcast. And please also, if you would like to help support the podcast, visit hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyways, Mrs. Goldstein, I know you have insisted the entire day that you have nothing to say. Uh, but I did interview you just a few minutes ago for the video that we're making, and, um, it did not seem like you had nothing to say. And, uh, your son Chaim, who's a good friend of mine, who's a shliach in Drexel University in Philadelphia, he tells me that you have something to say. So, uh, we shall find out.

02:41 Speaker 1 We will find out.

02:41 Speaker 2 We shall find out. But I believe-

02:43 Speaker 1 Right

02:43 Speaker 2 ... yeah, so, so let us begin at the story that is, that, that you say is nothing. Let us begin at that story. Um, you know, growing up where you grew up, you have an unusual background for a shlucha of fifty years.

02:59 Speaker 1 Um, well, first of all, it's hashgacha pratit that we're doing this tonight, 'cause tonight is the Yahrtzeit of my grandparents, who I never met.

03:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

03:09 Speaker 1 Who unfortunately perished in the Holocaust. And, um, so may it be in their zechus that the continuity of Yiddishkeit is because of what they began and the generations before them.

03:25 Speaker 2 That's beautiful.

03:28 Speaker 1 Uh, so I grew up in Williamsburg, as I like to tell people now, Williamsburg, Virginia. Uh, because some people think here that I grew up in Williamsburg, Virginia. I grew up in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, the heart of it all. And my parents came in nineteen forty-nine after their Holocaust experience. They could have left earlier, but they were waiting for a boat that, and permission to be able to come. And that took, unfortunately, about three and a half years, and they lived in Germany at the time.

04:05 Speaker 2 They were married before the war?

04:07 Speaker 1 So they got married right after the war.

04:09 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

04:09 Speaker 1 That was quite a story of how they, the shidduch began, became. Um, would you like me to tell that part?

04:17 Speaker 2 Sure. Sure. Yeah.

04:17 Speaker 1 All right, 'cause speaking about Lubavitch, it has a little conte- a connection over there already. Um, my, my mother was from Hungary, and my father was from Yugoslavia, but he went to yeshiva in Hungary. When before the war, he would-- uh, their yeshiva boys were kind of farmed out for Shabbos, the families. And turns out that my f- mother's family had, um, my father for Shabbaton.

04:47 Speaker 2 Hmm.

04:48 Speaker 1 After the war, there were the people who survived, the older generation, not old, but the older than my father, who was at the time, uh, was about twenty, twenty-one. My mother was twenty. Uh, was going around trying to match up the young people. And somebody said, and I don't know what his name was, but there is this, um, this woman, Rivka Gittel, and her maiden name was Klein. Um, and somebody said, and an idea, "Oh, one minute. There is a bachur, and he's..." I think my father was at the time in Germany. Somebody said he survived. "It would be really amazing if we can bring them together." And then the to- the story we heard was that my grandfather, al av sham, uh, Eliyahu, really liked my father. And I don't know who the person was, but he said it would be a really good idea for my father to somehow they... I don't know how they got hold of my father. My father was told about the shidduch, but without parents or anyone to help guide him, he didn't know what to do. So he sent a telegram to his brother and his sister who survived, "You have to come and help me. You have to come and help me see if I should do this." And my uncle, who in his la- in later years, he lived in Switzerland, uh, said-

06:26 Speaker 2 So a bunch of the family survived the war?

06:28 Speaker 1 Um, my... From my, my mother, they-- Each had some siblings, but most of the family did not.

06:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:38 Speaker 1 Uh, my mother and her sisters were in Auschwitz, but it's, it's a long story. But the one-

06:44 Speaker 2 So you said your mother's parents survived?

06:47 Speaker 1 No.

06:47 Speaker 2 They did not survive?

06:48 Speaker 1 No, they did not s-survive. Um, neither did my father's pa- uh, parents survive.

06:53 Speaker 2 So who said... It was a shidduch. You said your, your grandparents. Oh.

06:57 Speaker 1 No, uh, my grandparents who did not survive, they're... The, the reason they observe the Yahrtzeit tonight, and that's both my father and my mother, unfortunately, the whole town was taken.

07:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:08 Speaker 1 Um, and, you know, the, , everybody who was in the town knew that whoever was taken, um, did not survive, and so they observed the Yahrtzeit tonight.

07:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:22 Speaker 1 Um, and Shavuot was for my father's family. Uh, that's how my parents, uh, you know, observed the Yahrtzeit, just, and the people of the town and everybody who... So they each had about two or three siblings of a large family that survived. So my, my uncle, who was younger than my father, he's quite young during the war, um, got a telegram from my father to come, and he said it was a long trip, many miles, and you take a train and walk. And, and he, when he arrived, my father said, "Take a look at her. What do you think?" And my uncle said, I... He said, "It's a good shidduch." And that's how the shidduch happened. And my mother's sister, who was living in Hungary, um, made the wedding in her house. We have a picture of my mother. It's amazing 'cause we... My, uh, my aunt described the wedding. She described it as the most beautiful event. Um , and it was very simple, but they were very happy. So my father-

08:35 Speaker 2 It, it's very special in general, those stories of people getting married right after such, such destruction, right? And-

08:41 Speaker 1 Right

08:41 Speaker 2 ... so there's, there is something very beautiful about it. It's, it's-

08:44 Speaker 1 It was-

08:45 Speaker 2 ... it's the ultimate kind of, uh, commitment.

08:49 Speaker 1 It, it w- it was very special. And we heard... We didn't hear... My parents did not speak about their experience during the, um, during the war. Actually, the word Holocaust I learned in Ann Arbor. I never heard the word Holocaust.

09:03 Speaker 2 Sure.

09:03 Speaker 1 They used to refer to it as der machame.

09:07 Speaker 2 Der machame?

09:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I thought it was a... I never thought it was a machame they were in. And I'll soon tell you that, um, there was twice a year that my father, uh, uh, on, uh, the night of the Seder, before he began the Seder, he'd take the matzah, put it on his shoulder, and walk around the table, and he would say, "Kinderlach, uh, Mamie and Nirch sein in dohein to here to celebrate also our golah." And, and with that, he began the, um, Seder. So as a kid... And then Tisha B'Av by night when we sat on the floor and my mother and a cousin would read the Ehah in Yiddish, they would cry bitterly. And as kids, we thought, "Oh, wow, they're taking it so personally, the Horban." Um, they would say to each other, "Mir veisn vas das is" And okay, they, they're older than us, so they know more about the Horban Beit HaMikdash. And those were the two times, um, that we heard anything about the Holocaust. My father only so- told stories of Chassid Hashem, how he saw the Chesed of Hashem in the midst of evil. Like, uh, his famous story was how he, he, he, um, he experienced starvation quite a bit. And one day, an SS guard threw a, a, uh, raw potato at him, and he thought... He thanked HaShem 'cause he made it through the day. And it was very, very few stories. Uh, my father, in general, was a very strong, a strong Emunah.

10:55 Speaker 1 Nothing can, nothing can shake him.

10:58 Speaker 2 They came from Hasidish estas at the end of the Holocaust era?

11:00 Speaker 1 So my mother came more of, uh, of Hasidish. You know, they have Oberlander and... I forgot the terminologies. Um-

11:10 Speaker 2 Habershtam.

11:10 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, I can't remember. But my father always had a connection to Rebbes. So-

11:17 Speaker 2 Oberlander, you mean from a different part of the country?

11:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

11:19 Speaker 2 Not a last name.

11:20 Speaker 1 So... No, not the, the kind of, um, Hasidishkeit that he had. Um, uh, uh, he... When he came to America, he was, his Rebbe was a Skverer Rebbe.

11:33 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

11:34 Speaker 1 But my father, being a person who just believed in Rebbes, he would go-- I call him an international Hasid. He felt that every Rebbe had something to give him. He ended up in, in the Satmar Rebbe and the Skverer Rebbe, Sto- um, Skulener Rebbe. So my father just liked what Rebbes had to give. So, so we didn't really have an identity, like we are... I didn't identify myself as a Skverer Hasid, uh, Hasidim or Satmar Hasidim.

12:08 Speaker 2 Where did you go to school?

12:09 Speaker 1 We-- I went to Bais Yaakov of Williamsburg.

12:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:12 Speaker 1 Which is also a miracle that I ended up there, 'cause I could have... They about Two, three years into my education, I think Satmar opened, and many of the immigrants in our community sent their children there.

12:26 Speaker 2 Yes, I was gonna say, in those days, Williamsburg was not as strictly Satmar as it is today.

12:31 Speaker 1 No, no. It's-

12:32 Speaker 2 It was a much more-

12:33 Speaker 1 It was, um-

12:33 Speaker 2 ... uh, diverse Jewish community.

12:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. It w- it was diverse, and slowly-

12:38 Speaker 2 Well, Satmar was much smaller. After the war-

12:40 Speaker 1 Right

12:40 Speaker 2 ... Satmar was a tiny group.

12:42 Speaker 1 Right.

12:42 Speaker 2 They were mostly in Israel, I think.

12:43 Speaker 1 Exactly. I remember when they built the Satmar shul.

12:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:47 Speaker 1 And, um, the reason I remember it is because my mother was very happy, and she was... I said, "Let's go in." She said, "I can't." I said, "Why?" She says, "I'm not wearing a hat on my sheitel."

13:01 Speaker 2 Ah.

13:01 Speaker 1 And that was my first, like, "You can't go in?" My mother was a very, she was a very frum, uh, woman, and I co- I couldn't understand, like, what would happen if you walked in, but I didn't ask her.

13:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, better not find out.

13:18 Speaker 1 So, um, so my father always... And he would go to Rebbe's Tish, and he would say to us girls, um, "I have shirayim for all of you. I brought home shirayim." Didn't really mean much to me, but, you know, the thoughtfulness of my father that he, you know, thought of us girls.

13:41 Speaker 2 You were only girls in your home?

13:42 Speaker 1 No, we have two... I have two brothers, and, uh, we are four girls, so six kenarah. Four of us married Lubavitchers, and-

13:51 Speaker 2 All the girls? All the-

13:52 Speaker 1 The girls. All the girls. And my brothers have their story, too. Uh, my brothers, one is Vizhnitz, and the other one is in Flatbush, and, uh, it'd be a long story to tell.

14:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so how does a girl who's going to Bais Yaakov Williamsburg, which is not Satmar, but it's, it's, it's Williamsburg, and it's probably a mix of yeshiva girls and all kinds of girls, probably mostly children of survivors, I imagine.

14:21 Speaker 1 Mm, and Americans.

14:22 Speaker 2 And Americans also?

14:23 Speaker 1 It, it, Lit- Litvish very strong.

14:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:25 Speaker 1 Lakewood was, like, you either married... Actually, even stronger was most of my friends married Lakewood boys. It was the epitome that you can get someone from Lakewood who sits and learns.

14:38 Speaker 2 Lakewood was very small at the time.

14:39 Speaker 1 It was, but it-

14:41 Speaker 2 That was the thing

14:41 Speaker 1 ... it cam- became very popular.

14:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

14:43 Speaker 1 Like, if you can get a Lakewood boy.

14:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. And already then they were doing the thing where you support him, like-

14:49 Speaker 1 Yes

14:49 Speaker 2 ... in yeshivot?

14:50 Speaker 1 Yes.

14:50 Speaker 2 Really? Really?

14:51 Speaker 1 Yes.

14:51 Speaker 2 It started then already.

14:52 Speaker 1 Yes. It was a very popular thing.

14:54 Speaker 2 Wow.

14:55 Speaker 1 And, uh-

14:56 Speaker 2 What did you think about that?

14:58 Speaker 1 I never... It never spoke to me. It never sp- I, I, um... Sorry, I have to say another thing about my mother-

15:05 Speaker 2 Sure

15:05 Speaker 1 ... and how we, the feelings for another Yid we got in our home, um, in an indirect way. So as the Hungarians came to Williamsburg, if you went to a store and you were, you were a nice, frum American person, you would hear Hungarian, Hungarian, made to feel like you're not frum. And my mother did not like that. She felt hurt for them. So, um, we had actually a neighbor, Goldstein, American, and my mother made it a point to learn English to talk to her and, and compliment them on their Yiddishkeit. So, um, it, it became like, um, a holier than thou, you know, like-

15:56 Speaker 2 Right

15:56 Speaker 1 ... and then all of a sudden, the Americans who, I don't know if you know the Wilhelms, the Tresses, they, they were very prominent frum people, and as, as it became more, I don't know, uh, Williamsburg kind, like, they, they started moving away to different neighborhoods.

16:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. Look, uh, this isn't a podcast about Satmar. I don't know enough about Satmar. But I do know, and this is not s- I don't think this is some kind of controversial statement, Satmar came to America with a very specific agenda to, to be con- be Chanoyim about, about Halacha, and they... There's all kinds of historical, you know, explorations of this where American Jews used to have, uh, was it peanut, peanut oil on Pesach. Do you remember that?

16:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes.

16:46 Speaker 2 And the Satmars came, and they put an end to that within a year, I think. And, you know, whoever eats peanut oil is, is eating chametz, you know? And, and they won on some levels, you know?

16:56 Speaker 1 They did.

16:56 Speaker 2 They did.

16:56 Speaker 1 And that's... I, I wanted to say that many of them became the... If Paschas was Mr. Paschas, Lieber was Mr. Lieber-

17:05 Speaker 2 They were Satmar people?

17:06 Speaker 1 These were con... They were nec- not necessarily Satmar, but these were contemporaries of my father.

17:13 Speaker 2 I see.

17:13 Speaker 1 Because my father also went into the food business, kashrus.

17:17 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:17 Speaker 1 Um, and all of these people became very successful very quickly. Uh, k- all the, the kosher brands, those were people, and my father knew them. So that's kind of a little bit how my... So first of all, I wanna thank my mother for teaching us about, uh, respecting Yidden that are not maybe like you. Uh, now my father, as his business developed, and he didn't become like a Mr. Paschas because his customers were immigrants, didn't have money to pay. But what happened was he had customers like B- uh, Leibel Bastritzky, Minkowitz, and my father was a very friendly man. And when he would go-

18:07 Speaker 2 What was his name?

18:08 Speaker 1 My father?

18:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:09 Speaker 1 Yael.

18:10 Speaker 2 Yael.

18:10 Speaker 1 Yael Francos.

18:11 Speaker 2 Yael Francos.

18:12 Speaker 1 Yes.

18:12 Speaker 2 Is that-

18:13 Speaker 1 And yeah, people know the donuts, but that's my cousin. That's not us.

18:17 Speaker 2 Oh, those donuts in the little boxes?

18:19 Speaker 1 Yes.

18:20 Speaker 2 They also, they also had a food business.

18:22 Speaker 1 So they s-

18:23 Speaker 2 That's, that's bringing me back to camp, uh, camp, uh, canteen. I don't think I've had those since then.

18:29 Speaker 1 It is-

18:29 Speaker 2 The, the six little-

18:29 Speaker 1 There was before that, a whole story

18:32 Speaker 2 ... the six little frosty donuts in the box.

18:34 Speaker 1 That's right.

18:35 Speaker 2 Uh.

18:35 Speaker 1 That's my cousin.

18:36 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

18:36 Speaker 1 Uh, so these people, these Lubavitchers, as my father would, uh, visit them, especially, uh, Leibel Patritsky, they say, "Rabbi, c- come to the back. They would fabreng." I remember Minkowitz, uh, had a, a bottle of mashke under his counter, and he wanted to... They all wanted to fabreng, so-

18:59 Speaker 2 In the stores that your father-

19:00 Speaker 1 In the stores my father's supposed to be-

19:03 Speaker 2 Selling

19:03 Speaker 1 ... selling they ended up fabrenging. And then they would tell my father there's a fabreng, and then actually my father met the Fridiger Rebbe. Because my father was open to Rebbes, he heard about the Fridiger Rebbe, and he, he actually met with the Fridiger Rebbe.

19:22 Speaker 2 Huh.

19:23 Speaker 1 So fast-forward, um, um, my, then my sister, my oldest sister married, um, Leibel Newman, Rabbi Leibel Newman from Beis Rivkah, was-

19:36 Speaker 2 That's your older sister?

19:37 Speaker 1 That's my olds- uh, my oldest. She's really responsible, she and her husband, for all of us-

19:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

19:42 Speaker 1 ... uh, getting in- into Lubavitch. Uh, she was working in an office, and, um, what's her name? Rivky Baumgarten. I think she lives in England today.

19:55 Speaker 2 Or Rivky Shelek.

19:57 Speaker 1 But her name is... Oh, oh, yeah.

19:58 Speaker 2 She used to be Baumgarten. She's Rivky Shelek.

20:00 Speaker 1 And her... Yes. Okay.

20:00 Speaker 2 Yes, I know. I, I, I've interviewed her.

20:02 Speaker 1 Okay. Oh, really? Uh, so she-

20:04 Speaker 2 Very, very nice lady

20:05 Speaker 1 ... worked together with my sister in an office, in a very Misnagdish office.

20:10 Speaker 2 Uh, just, just... I didn't interview her for this podcast. I interviewed her for a different project, but she's a very nice lady.

20:15 Speaker 1 Okay.

20:16 Speaker 2 Just wanted to clarify.

20:17 Speaker 1 Okay.

20:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:18 Speaker 1 So she, she's the one who had this idea that my sister would be great for Lubavitcher.

20:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Homesick 4 Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvla Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvla Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonial, Torah Umassorah, and Athalon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvlamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvlamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast.

21:20 Speaker 1 I have to tell you another thing about my mother, bless her home. She, she grew up with what she always say, "Erliche Yidden." And as she watched the community grow, and everybody put on a shtreimel and a bekishe, is she, she used to tell us that when she was a kid, and you saw somebody with a shtreimel and a bekishe, he's a holy man. And today, you don't have to be holy. You just have to put on the l'vush. So she was very into that if you're gonna wear it, be it.

21:54 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:55 Speaker 1 Okay. So my brother-in-law, he really, um, exemplified what she was, what she, what she enjoyed to see. If you, if you're gonna be a Lubavitcher, be a Lubavitcher, you know? And he had a way of explaining things to her that she, she was able to receive.

22:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:15 Speaker 1 But each time one of us were ready get married, I remember when, when I... It was my turn, my father-- And we spoke to my father in Yiddish and English, but mostly in Yiddish. M- He said, "Have a very good bacher for you." Uh, 'cause my father knew I wanted someone who can learn, and that's how they kind of quote, unquote-

22:36 Speaker 2 But not too much. Not Lakewood.

22:38 Speaker 1 So my father said, "Y- I have a bacher, and he says he's gonna learn every night." And I told my father, "You have to tell him he doesn't have to." He says, "I don't understand." He s- I said, "Because I'm not taking him, so he, he, if he's gonna learn from me, he's not mine." So my father was not too happy. Being survivors, they did not want us to be in education. They wanted us to all marry business people and not have to struggle in life.

23:11 Speaker 2 Right.

23:11 Speaker 1 And they viewed education as you're not gonna get rich, you know?

23:15 Speaker 2 They were right.

23:17 Speaker 1 They were. And, uh, so, uh, so-

23:22 Speaker 2 So you married, you married a Shliach.

23:24 Speaker 1 Mm. So- ... before I married a Shliach, my friends were getting married. I was one of the last ones to get married, and they're all marrying Lakewood or Papa or Satmar. And I'm thinking to myself... I watched my sisters get married, and I... It was the first time that I saw at their table, the Shabbos table, people who were not from. I never saw something like that. Not-

23:49 Speaker 2 You're saying when you would go to their homes and parents-

23:51 Speaker 1 ... Crown Heights, I, I said. Like, not from people at your Shabbos table. I always had a feeling, where are the rest of the Yidden? Like, can't be the whole world of Shabbat, uh, sharing Shabbos, everybody's E- And when it came time for looking for a teaching job, I found out about a school in New Jersey where my sister was teaching, and I told her, "Look out for me for a job." And my mother was very upset. She said, "There's plenty of schools in Williamsburg. You can teach here." I said, "No. I want a special kind of school." And I ended up working in a school that I met Rabbi David Rappaport, Lubavitcher, and then one of my husband's best friends who, who was teaching there, Rabbi Z, al av ha-shalom, from Detroit. I don't know if you remember him.

24:38 Speaker 2 Okay.

24:38 Speaker 1 Zaklik, Zaklikovsky.

24:40 Speaker 2 Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. The, the, the, the tall-

24:42 Speaker 1 Tall. Very tall

24:43 Speaker 2 ... very tall.

24:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, we called him Rabbi Z.

24:45 Speaker 2 Okay.

24:45 Speaker 1 Um, and then came... Okay. Then came the idea of my husband, and came to our house, and with his parents, my parents together-

24:57 Speaker 2 That's how you used to work back then?

24:59 Speaker 1 Mamish. We were in the living room. They, they were... And my father's, he very... He says, "Okay, let's... This looks like a good idea." So, um-

25:11 Speaker 2 But you got engaged before you met?

25:12 Speaker 1 No, no. No. We... So this is what happened, which was really amazing. We met two or th- third time. Um, my husbands explained to them we were married. We have to all write to the rabbi. We don't announce anything. And my father wrote to the rabbi, my brother-in-law wrote, my father-in-law wrote, and the rabbi wrote. This is the part that I... And I have another story that would turn me on tremendously. The rabbi wrote that I've heard from-

25:41 Speaker 2 Turn you on to Lubavitch?

25:42 Speaker 1 Yes. I've heard from everyone, but I have not heard from the person you're talking about. And I get-- It's before cell phone times. I get a, like, an emergency call at school, and my brother-in-law says, "You have to go. You have to write a letter." And I knew s- I knew so little about, about everything that I wrote a letter, and I'm embarrassed. Maybe don't tell the story, but it's a funny story. I, I came to Seven seventy 'cause I was told you have to go right away. It took about an hour, over an hour to get there. And I walked in. I didn't even know where, where does one put a settel? So, um, my brother-in-law said, "Take it to the office." So I took the elevator. I figured offices are upstairs. And I, till this day, we don't know who it was. I took the elevator, and the elevator opened, and a man with a white beard went like this.

26:42 Speaker 2 Downstairs.

26:43 Speaker 1 Go, like, he didn't talk. I didn't talk. He just pointed downstairs. I, I-- You don't go on this elevator. So I handed in the letter, and fifteen minutes, not even that, uh, we got an answer, "Nach and Hatchedoch."

27:01 Speaker 2 Huh. So your family basically didn't-- You basically-- Your family basically assumed that to the rabbi, the men write.

27:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:10 Speaker 2 The men write. The women don't write.

27:12 Speaker 1 Well, before that, when I came to Crown Heights, my brother-in-law told me, "There's a, I don't know, halacha or there's something that you're in a city where there's a tzadik, you have to go see the face of the tzadik." Uh, and he said, "I wanna ask you one favor. I want you to walk into, you know, the Seven seventy," and there was a farbrengen, "and just take a look at the Rebbe. Take one look." And I came, and I started to listen, and I hear the Rebbe talking about women. I understood Yiddish, so I couldn't understand what the Rebbe was saying. And I was, I was mesmerized. The Rebbe, a Rebbe talking about the role of a Jewish woman. I never... What, what's going on here? I need to know more about this Rebbe. That was my first time that... And from that moment on, I, I don't think I ever davened more for something. I wanted a Lubavitcher. And I had a friend in Bais Yakov who married a Lubavitcher, and she had this idea that I mi- I didn't tell anybody, except my, my sisters know that I wanna marry Lubavitcher. And she, she told me, "If you're thinking of marrying Lubavitcher, don't. It's a hard life."

28:35 Speaker 2 So that's what I want to ask you. It's-- You said before that your classmates, some were marrying Lakewood, some were marrying Popa, some were marrying Satmar. Why was Lubavitch at that point, we're talking when, in the late fifties, at least?

28:48 Speaker 1 Uh, when I was getting, uh, late sixties.

28:52 Speaker 2 Late sixties. Late sixties.

28:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:54 Speaker 2 Why was Lubavitch at that point so different? Like, if the, if your classmates are marrying guys from all the way from Lakewood to Popa and Satmar, why is Lubavitch even further outside of that circle?

29:07 Speaker 1 Because of what they represented. Everybody was a very insulated group.

29:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

29:14 Speaker 1 And unfortunately, when Lubavitch came to Williamsburg, I didn't know they were Lubavitchers. I remember my friend saying, "There's this group of people that are coming." And I said, "I don't wanna go because people in Williamsburg attacked them."

29:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

29:31 Speaker 1 And I wa- I was just afraid. I didn't even know they were Lubavitchers. Later, I found out.

29:35 Speaker 2 I see.

29:36 Speaker 1 So because they didn't believe in the philosophy of reaching out to non-frum people.

29:42 Speaker 2 Right. So the late sixties was already post the which were s- was s-

29:48 Speaker 1 Yes

29:48 Speaker 2 ... still in controversial.

29:49 Speaker 1 Still in, it was very controversial.

29:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

29:52 Speaker 1 My, my father was like the shaliach in Williamsburg.

29:58 Speaker 2 So when your older sister, your older sister got married to Rabbi Newman, it was not-- At that point, it was already controversial? It was already controversial.

30:05 Speaker 1 There again. When I told my teachers, very innocently, "My sister's engaged," and I said, "A Lubavitcher," they looked down like something horrible happened.

30:15 Speaker 2 Really? So this is already... Your sister got engaged in the early s-

30:19 Speaker 1 Early, yeah. She was-

30:20 Speaker 2 Early sixties? Mid-sixties?

30:21 Speaker 1 Uh, mid-sixties.

30:23 Speaker 2 Wow. So the, in the mid-chaf's already, Lubavitch was already seen as-

30:29 Speaker 1 They're different.

30:30 Speaker 2 I don't know.

30:31 Speaker 1 They're different.

30:31 Speaker 2 No, but, like, beyond the pale is what you're saying.

30:33 Speaker 1 Yes. It was, um... And my cousins in Williamsburg kept always saying, "But you're not gonna do the same thing." Because-

30:42 Speaker 2 But what, but what was the tine? The tine was that they, they were, they weren't frum. They, they didn't have Yishamael. That the-

30:48 Speaker 1 What they were doing. The how can you put on tefillin on someone who's, who's not Shemot Shabbos.

30:55 Speaker 2 Basically, something, something's wrong with them.

30:57 Speaker 1 They, they, they... Yeah, you don't do that to a per- They... Accepting a Yid who's not like you Was unacceptable

31:07 Speaker 2 And your parents didn't... It didn't bother your parents?

31:10 Speaker 1 It, it... Well, I'm not gonna say it didn't bother them. Um, my father had a lot of questions, but he want... He had questions that he was willing to hear the answers.

31:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

31:22 Speaker 1 Um, and I think I... Thanks to my brother-in-law who would answer a lot of question. I remember as a kid, and my, uh, Rabbi Weinberg, Hashem had a Tanya share on the radio before I even knew about Lubavitch, and he... At Motzei Shabbos, he would quickly... He had a Tanya, and he would quickly sit with the radio and listen to the Tanya share.

31:47 Speaker 2 Your father?

31:48 Speaker 1 My father. So my father was, um, on the other hand, when my sister was about to get engaged to my brother-in-law, he went to the Satmar Rebbe and asked, "What should I do?" He a- the Satmar Rebbe asked him, "I don't know. Is he your Shammai?" And he asked him a few questions. My father said, "Mesuchtas, yeah." So the Satmar Rebbe says, "Then, then go ahead with it."

32:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

32:17 Speaker 1 So it wasn't, um... As a matter of fact, when... Okay, so we get an answer for that. So first of that Chupren really, uh, it was something very unusual for me to hear.

32:32 Speaker 2 What, what exactly was bothering you beforehand? You felt that the communities you were in was, was, was what? Was downplaying women? Was... You, you felt like you didn't fit in? What, what, what, why, why didn't you-

32:44 Speaker 1 I don't know

32:44 Speaker 2 ... why couldn't you buy into the whole philosophy that your biggest thing in life is to marry a Ben Torah and support him? Why didn't that speak to you?

32:53 Speaker 1 It didn't speak to me because it didn't have meaning to me. It didn't ha- And I, I, I don't know. I think David was very kind to me, that I did not appreciate it. And, um-

33:09 Speaker 2 Because you, because you di-

33:10 Speaker 1 My f- my friends-

33:10 Speaker 2 'Cause it, 'cause it basically meant that you were just, like-

33:13 Speaker 1 It very felt-

33:14 Speaker 2 ... supporting someone else?

33:15 Speaker 1 No. I felt that kind of... Not the, the, the support didn't bother me. It was the philosophy-

33:22 Speaker 2 That was-

33:22 Speaker 1 ... to be so insulated.

33:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

33:25 Speaker 1 And, uh, I was really concerned about, uh, you see, we had this thing in school that if any girl, any of the girls, and same thing happened in Yeshivas, if they didn't conform to all the rules, they, they labeled them as the bums. And I know... I don't know what happened to those people.

33:44 Speaker 2 This is, this is already-

33:45 Speaker 1 So already-

33:45 Speaker 2 This is already in the late '50s?

33:47 Speaker 1 I was in school, uh, not so early. I'm not that old, but-

33:51 Speaker 2 Oh, I'm sorry. I, I-

33:52 Speaker 1 ... in the '60s

33:52 Speaker 2 Oh, so you got-

33:53 Speaker 1 In, in the '60.

33:54 Speaker 2 You got married in the '70s.

33:55 Speaker 1 That's correct.

33:56 Speaker 2 Okay. So I'm confusing the decades.

33:57 Speaker 1 '73. Yes.

33:58 Speaker 2 I'm confusing the decades. So in the late '60s, so we're talking within 20 years of the war, there's already this, this, this sense of a girl... K- girls and boys who are not up to snuff.

34:11 Speaker 1 Right.

34:11 Speaker 2 Knock them, knock them out.

34:13 Speaker 1 Yes.

34:13 Speaker 2 And there were kids that were disappearing out of the system.

34:16 Speaker 1 They were. And I had a, I have a brother-

34:19 Speaker 2 Really?

34:19 Speaker 1 ... who did, and but he came back thanks to my brother-in-law. Yes.

34:23 Speaker 2 So your brother, your brother wasn't up to snuff in the Yeshiva, and they basically told him, "You're out."

34:28 Speaker 1 Exactly.

34:29 Speaker 2 Really?

34:30 Speaker 1 And not a... And, and-

34:31 Speaker 2 I thought... I was sure that happened later.

34:33 Speaker 1 No. It was, it, it was, uh... And that... I, I think it was more that I really love-

34:41 Speaker 2 But what does that, what does insulated have to do with women... With your talking to women? Why is it-

34:46 Speaker 1 Because I grew up, uh, that nothing of a Rebbe has to do with a woman. It, it's just not-

34:53 Speaker 2 But how...

34:54 Speaker 1 It-

34:54 Speaker 2 I understand, but how does that speak to your question of being insulated or your problem of being insulated?

34:59 Speaker 1 Because maybe if they weren't so insulated, and we found out the role of women, and we know the role of men, and then maybe-

35:08 Speaker 2 I see

35:09 Speaker 1 ... s- that was not even... It, it wasn't even a question. It was, um, uh... Yeah.

35:16 Speaker 2 So, so, I... So, like, insulated but also, like, protected. It seems like, like the... It... You keep the women in the home. You don't tell them what's going on in the world and, and their job is to, to-

35:27 Speaker 1 Right

35:28 Speaker 2 ... to, to, to, to make the house.

35:30 Speaker 1 Right. Right. And-

35:31 Speaker 2 That didn't, that didn't appeal to you.

35:33 Speaker 1 No, not at all. Not at all. As a matter of fact, um, yeah, my father had a business and, you know, I, I... We all helped him. We worked there, but I hated business. I really... I, I had no, no interest in it. And, you know, my parents would say that the, the, the person you marry will have money. He'll take care of you. And I, I... It just didn't... I, I was looking for more substance.

36:01 Speaker 2 Hmm.

36:01 Speaker 1 And I didn't... I, I just didn't find it. When I would go to my sis- both of my sisters' songs, I just felt like this is really, you know, this is really so unusual. Very... I had a lot of friends also from Bobov 'cause Crown Heights had a lot of Bobovers.

36:20 Speaker 2 Right.

36:21 Speaker 1 And I always tell people, "Don't think everyone walking down Eastern Parkway knows about Lubavitchers." I was sitting in front of 770 as a young girl with my friends. I had no idea that inside that building was the Rebbe.

36:38 Speaker 2 Right. Yes. Yes, that's a common Lubavitch misconception about history.

36:43 Speaker 1 I think today it's sti- it's different. I mean, we're much more, uh... And so I, I had many times throughout my years, uh, when the Rebbe was with us physically, how personally I, um... I'll tell you. Uh, so first it was when we, when we, um- When we got engaged, and then before we came out on Shlichus... Oh, first of all, when we wrote to the Rebbe about the Shlichus. So-

37:15 Speaker 2 No, no. Okay

37:16 Speaker 1 ... my husband was offered, uh, either to come to Ann Arbor to be a Shliach on campus or to live in West Bloomfield, which is more of a pulpit rabbi. So he wrote to the Rebbe asking the Rebbe to help him make a decision, and we were baffled with the Rebbe's answer. The Rebbe answered, "Do as your wife tells you to do."

37:40 Speaker 2 Hmm.

37:41 Speaker 1 And I... When I heard that answer, I was like, "What does the Rebbe think I know? If anything, my husband knows more than I." So I sat down with my husband and I said, "Wait one minute. What do you know about Ann Arbor?" And I said, "What do you know about West Bloomfield?" And he said, "West Bloomfield is, uh, a pulp- They're looking for a pulpit rabbi. Ann Arbor is a college town." And at the time while we were living in Crown Heights, we would ask Rabbi Castel to send college students to our home. And I saw my husband really enjoyed learning about what they do, and he related to them really well. He was teaching at, um, Hadar Torah. So I said to my husband, "I think... I don't think you'll make a good pulpit rabbi, but I think you would be a great college, uh, rabbi." He wrote a second time, but my husband forgot to write that we discussed it. So the Rebbe answered, "Pella Shashel Eipam Kvar Nisi." And the third time we wrote, Rebbe, uh, my husband wrote, "We discussed it, and we both agree that Ann Arbor would be a good place." And after the third time, the Rebbe answered with a berachah. So that to me was... I think I appreciate it even more in the later years, that the way the Rebbe, um... And it's not that he elevated women. He, he used the strength of women. And I had another incident that really touched me to

39:24 Speaker 1 the core, was before we left, we had a very special Yechidus with the Rebbe. My husband-

39:33 Speaker 2 This is your first Yechidus?

39:35 Speaker 1 No, 'cause we went in for, um... We went in once before.

39:41 Speaker 2 For the chasuna?

39:41 Speaker 1 It was a bir- Uh, chasuna. Uh, was it my husband's birthday? I don't remember, but we went in once before. But definitely for the chasuna, 'cause we all went in for the chasuna.

39:51 Speaker 2 Who's we all? Your family also?

39:52 Speaker 1 Um, my parents and my husband's parents.

39:55 Speaker 2 And that was the first time your parents... No, your parents must have gone with your-

39:58 Speaker 1 They might-

39:58 Speaker 2 ... with sisters

39:59 Speaker 1 Yes, they went with my sisters, and I'll soon tell you something about that. But, um, my husband, I don't know if he told you or if you know, he w- he was one of the bachurim who would be there when Rav Yoel Kahn would ch- uh, chazar the chavar angens. And he was one of... He wrote every chazara as, uh, Rav Yoel would give over the chazara. He wrote it. Then Sunday mornings, he would spend hours typing it up. And then he decided before we left, he's gonna bind them all in huge, really huge, um, uh, Sfarim. And there was about, I don't know, ten, ten volumes of these that he printed, bound, and he took it in on Yechidus. Well, we weren't going to take it in, and he asked, I think it was, uh, I think, uh, Rabbi Groner, "Should we bring it in? Should we leave it out?" He told my husband, "Uh, maybe a guy chazak, you should bring it in." When my husband came in with them, the Rebbe said... showed him where he should put it, and he said, "Zicha vet es kumen tz'nutz" And it has. As a result of that, a lot of things were printed. But as we're standing there and my husband puts down the, the, um, the ch- the sichas, the Rebbe points to me to come closer. And I'd-- I'll tell you, the three steps I took, I felt like I had walked a mile. And the Rebbe opened up his drawer from

41:37 Speaker 1 his office, and that year they launched the Mivtza Neshek. Rebbe took out five, and I have one here to show you what it looked like. A matchbook with a mother and daughter, like a white, um... I think Rabbi Rubin in Albany printed them. Rebbe gave me five, and he gave me five single dollars, and then another one for me. And he said, "The first five women you find in Ann Arbor who have not yet... are not yet committed to Neshek, give it to them, and you decide whether it should be in my name or in your name. Abita ingen tzelze chovtan." Well, the wisdom of the Rebbe, because I still did not realize what Shlichus was about-

42:25 Speaker 2 As we approach the two-year mark of this podcast, Omesek for Lubavitch has become a household name in the Lubavitch community, with thousands of views each week on YouTube alone, as well as thousands more on the various podcast platforms. We have a devoted audience that listens regularly to the conversations and shares their thoughts with their families and communities. If you would like to sponsor an episode or advertise on one of our episodes, please reach out to bentzi@yuvlamedia.com. That's bentzi@yuvlamedia, Y-U-V-L-A, media.com. Felt like we jumped that over.

43:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:01 Speaker 2 You were talking about possibly dating a Lubavitcher-

43:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:04 Speaker 2 ... and then you're going on Shlichus. Like-

43:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:07 Speaker 2 ... there's a, there's a bit of a jump there

43:08 Speaker 1 I did ni- uh, miss a very big point, and I... This is like, like one of the miracles My husband, if you, if you know him, would never... First of all, I laugh with him. I say, "What's a nice Lubavitcher doing in Williamsburg?" And we always joke about that, like, I can't... But he t- he said that when we, when we were going out, he asked me about shlichus, and I told him, "If you asked me," and I said, "yes", the Malach answered you, 'cause I did not know what shlichus meant. I had no idea. Because he said he wouldn't, he wouldn't marry someone who wouldn't go on shlichus. So, um, maybe I th- I, he... Yeah, so that was a fu- that's a funny thing.

43:55 Speaker 2 Or you, or you liked him so much that you told him whatever he wanted to hear.

43:58 Speaker 1 Well, I didn't. I like, you know, will you go? I heard the word go, and I think, "I'll go anywhere. Where do you wanna go?" You know, I'm not, uh-

44:06 Speaker 2 Right

44:06 Speaker 1 ... uh, s- so that was a really funny thing that-

44:11 Speaker 2 Your older sisters who married Lubavitchers, one of them lived in Crown Heights. The other one also lived in Crown Heights?

44:15 Speaker 1 They sh- they both lived in Crown Heights. One moved to Atlanta, and then as their kids got older, they wrote to the rabbi. The rabbi told-

44:23 Speaker 2 Atlanta?

44:24 Speaker 1 Atlanta.

44:24 Speaker 2 Atlanta.

44:25 Speaker 1 But then they moved to Montreal.

44:27 Speaker 2 Right.

44:27 Speaker 1 Then I have another sister that lives in Crown Heights. So, uh, I have two sisters now in Crown Heights and one in Montreal.

44:35 Speaker 2 So the sister who moved to Atlanta, she had got, she had gotten married before you?

44:39 Speaker 1 Yes. Two sisters-

44:40 Speaker 2 So you, so you had a sibling who had gone on shlichus.

44:42 Speaker 1 Uh, yes. And, uh-

44:44 Speaker 2 So you knew what shlichus-

44:45 Speaker 1 ... but it was... I don't know why it was, maybe because of the job that my, uh, the shlichus was my brother-in-law was a, was a chazzan.

44:55 Speaker 2 Mm.

44:55 Speaker 1 I didn't hear any other-

44:56 Speaker 2 What was his name? I heard this story

44:57 Speaker 1 ... uh, Shtiefel.

44:59 Speaker 2 Somebody told me this.

45:00 Speaker 1 So-

45:00 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. His son, his son, his son told me this story.

45:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, um, it, it... But I kn- I can tell you that, so when we heard about this, and, uh, my, my, my mother was very upset, very upset. I, I-

45:19 Speaker 2 Wait a second. One second.

45:20 Speaker 1 Okay.

45:20 Speaker 2 So, so, so you get married. You get married.

45:23 Speaker 1 And then the first summer-

45:24 Speaker 2 And you, you moved to Nova-

45:24 Speaker 1 ... we go to South America for shlichus for six weeks.

45:29 Speaker 2 So-

45:29 Speaker 1 That was, remember I told you about?

45:31 Speaker 2 Yes.

45:31 Speaker 1 Okay. And-

45:32 Speaker 2 You went to Carac- you went to Caracas for six weeks.

45:33 Speaker 1 Right. And then my mother begged me not to come home and say that we're moving there.

45:39 Speaker 2 But you already knew before you went to Caracas that you were gonna go on shlichus somewhere.

45:42 Speaker 1 No. I had no idea.

45:43 Speaker 2 You were married for a bunch of months and...

45:45 Speaker 1 I, I, I can't explain it to you. I didn't... Whatever would come, I, I... We didn't... You know, it, it's interesting 'cause today when people get married, they're, they're much more advanced in their thinking. I didn't think of how we're gonna pay our bills.

46:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:03 Speaker 1 I had no idea. I had... I don't know. We just, we just did it. Like, you know, um, I... As I told you, I don't even know how we got a car. It just, um-

46:18 Speaker 2 Hmm

46:18 Speaker 1 ... was-

46:20 Speaker 2 So you're married to a Lubavitcher. He, in his mind, he's obviously going on shlichus.

46:24 Speaker 1 Yes.

46:24 Speaker 2 But you don't know what shlichus is.

46:26 Speaker 1 Right. And then he start, he teaches me.

46:28 Speaker 2 Sounds, sound, sounds like Sounds like a good shidduch.

46:30 Speaker 1 I'm a good idea. No, but the nice thing is my husband is a very patient teacher, and he, and he told-

46:38 Speaker 2 So you went, she went to South America and, and you-

46:41 Speaker 1 And he told me that... And we, in between South America, we were going to different camps. We were asked to come.

46:47 Speaker 2 What did you think when you went, went to South America? Like, "We're just going on a trip?"

46:50 Speaker 1 I think that's a great i- I think it's a great idea to go visit a community-

46:54 Speaker 2 Okay

46:54 Speaker 1 ... that needs our help.

46:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:56 Speaker 1 You know? But as the months, uh, progressed, I got to learn more. But I didn't know what shlichus was, even though I, I knew the word already.

47:06 Speaker 2 I see.

47:07 Speaker 1 I, I had no idea. I mean, coming here, as I told you about the first Jew, I had no idea you have to find Yidden. Let's, let's-

47:16 Speaker 2 And so for the people listening, I, I think you, you described it to me earlier. I think it'd be very interesting to describe the, your arrival in, in, in Ann Arbor. Uh, b- but let... W- we're jumping around a little bit. So you went to Caracas, and your mother says what?

47:30 Speaker 1 "Please don't move there." And I told my mother, "We're only going for six weeks. We're not moving there." But they did offer us a job, and I remember saying, I promised my mother that we wouldn't move there. My-

47:49 Speaker 2 So your husband wanted to move there?

47:50 Speaker 1 No. My husband, I think, I think had he really wanted, I probably would have agreed. But he says he didn't finish kollel, so he wasn't ready.

48:01 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

48:01 Speaker 1 He wanted to finish and...

48:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So, so you, you, you, you, it... Your mother already sees a little bit- ... the writing on the wall.

48:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

48:11 Speaker 2 And then you end up in Ann Arbor. Like you mentioned earlier, that there was a choice in Ann Arbor and West Bloomfield. You described earlier your landing in the airport in Detroit. Can you first describe the leaving the airport in New York? Would your parents come to see you off?

48:27 Speaker 1 Yes.

48:27 Speaker 2 Did his parents come to see him off? What was the difference between the two camps?

48:30 Speaker 1 It was, um, we, uh, marrying a Goldstein means everything is with technology , which means that everything got recorded. And my father-

48:42 Speaker 2 Do you have a video of it?

48:43 Speaker 1 We have a lot of things of it. We even have the melaveh malkah that we had the... 'Cause we left on Sunday.

48:49 Speaker 2 Huh.

48:50 Speaker 1 And my parents and my in-laws came all the way to the plane. You know, those years you could go.

48:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure.

48:56 Speaker 1 And my, my mother cried like she would never see me again. And, um-

49:03 Speaker 2 And h- and, and his family was too busy to be doing it?

49:06 Speaker 1 No, they were there. But my, my in-laws, they, they're Lubavitchers. They knew-

49:12 Speaker 2 Right

49:13 Speaker 1 ... what it meant.

49:14 Speaker 2 Right.

49:14 Speaker 1 Um, as a matter of fact, my mother-in-law, um, I could talk to her more about it than to my mother. From... With... To talk to my mother about it was a very sensitive subject, and like I, I was very careful not to, to hurt her with it. Like, it, it was... Yeah.

49:33 Speaker 2 So your mother was crying about it 'cause she's a, she's worried she's never gonna see you again.

49:36 Speaker 1 Because she's a survivor.

49:38 Speaker 2 Right. Sure.

49:38 Speaker 1 She wants her-

49:39 Speaker 2 Sure.

49:39 Speaker 1 She lived in a community where-

49:41 Speaker 2 Sure

49:42 Speaker 1 ... every, all the survivors, their children, their grandchildren. She was one of I don't know how many who did not have any child living in Williamsburg. And, um, and they're all asking, "Where are your children?" And it sounds like we all left our parents.

50:01 Speaker 2 And she's also not a Lubavitcher.

50:02 Speaker 1 And she's not a Lubavitcher, so she doesn't, um, she didn't-

50:07 Speaker 2 So did she ask you not to go?

50:10 Speaker 1 She... I don't know if she asked me, but she definitely conveyed the message very clearly.

50:16 Speaker 2 And your father?

50:18 Speaker 1 My father was more like, uh, you know, "Are you gonna be able to do all the mitzvahs there?" Or, you know, he was more concerned about going to pla- a place of ruchniyus. Uh, even when he would come here, he would go, "I, I, I..." They couldn't understand it, how people would... You know, the students would come in, they... Middle of the table, they just sit down. They t- they take something to eat. They leave. It's not a Shabbos dish, you know. It was, it... I liked having my parents from Sunday to Friday, but when it came... Yom Tov was not a time for them. It's-

50:57 Speaker 2 How did you feel making your mother so upset?

51:03 Speaker 1 I don't think I felt. I didn't... I, I, um, I couldn't understand what was... I, it d- I didn't look at it. I just felt that, it, it... I'm sure she cried when I got married, so she's crying now when I'm leaving again. You know, I didn't look at it like I'm hurting her. And I looked at it as, um-

51:28 Speaker 2 Part of life

51:29 Speaker 1 ... It, well, uh, and I didn't actually think about her past. It took me many years to reflect. Um, that's another story, that I never thought of myself as a child of survivors until I came to Ann Arbor and somebody found out about my, my past, and they asked me to join a group of second generation. That's when I found out it's not called the war, it's called the Holocaust.

51:57 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, it's... But it's, it's a unique story. I mean, really, really, this is a story that took place in Lubavitch itself. There are many Lubavitchers who went directly to the rabbi and said, you know, "Please don't send our kids away." Um, you know, but it's, it's, uh... I think that's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that very often children decide to stake their own path, and parents are not... Either they're not pleased with it, they're worried for their kids. They feel like their kids are gonna end up in a bad place, and just because your parents are worried about it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it necessarily, right?

52:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think they were just worried. They wanted the best for us.

52:43 Speaker 2 Right.

52:44 Speaker 1 So, you know, when you're, you're in your 20s, you're, you're not thinking that, uh, m- my mother was worried about me.

52:56 Speaker 2 Right.

52:56 Speaker 1 And she, um... Yeah.

53:00 Speaker 2 It was a crazy idea, right? To go, at that time, to go to Ann Arbor, Michigan, may as well have been Caracas as opposed to-

53:07 Speaker 1 To-

53:07 Speaker 2 ... Ann Arbor, Michigan

53:08 Speaker 1 ... Yeah. Where my mother always said to her friends that her children live in Detroit. She didn't want to say that, 'cause they'll ask her all the questions. You know, "Is there a shul? Is there a minyan? Is there this? Is there that?" She avoided all those questions 'cause she didn't know how to answer them.

53:30 Speaker 2 Did she ever come around?

53:32 Speaker 1 So she came. As I told you, when she came... Oh, yeah. No.

53:35 Speaker 2 No, did she come around to the idea?

53:37 Speaker 1 Oh, to the idea? Yeah. She did. She, um, i- yeah, it... She came around, and, uh, we were able to talk about it more. Uh, I, I try not to share with her any challenges, or I, I always made it seem like everything was perfect and really great. Um, I would take her... She liked nature, so I would take her to places that were really beautiful. So kind of show her she doesn't have to worry, you know. We're, we're okay. Um-

54:15 Speaker 2 But did she come around to understanding why you did it? Like-

54:19 Speaker 1 I don't know if she came around to understand, but she came around to accept-

54:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

54:24 Speaker 1 ... that this was a kind of life that, um, uh, uh... You have to understand, the community, like my cousins who are Satmar, in their earlier years, they, they couldn't believe... Well, even my Beis Ya- Beis Yaakov friends, when I told them, "I'm moving to a place called Ann Arbor," and they, "What?" They... So my friends predicted, "One of two things is gonna happen to you in 10 years. Either you're not gonna be frum anymore, or you're gonna have to live on a farm. Your fa- husband's gonna have to be a shochet." He said, "The only way that you're gonna have, uh, be able to keep kosher, he's gonna have to milk the cows," which he ended up doing, not because of that, but because in our early years, he would take the kids and to the farm. But, um, uh, uh, people just couldn't see a frum person. "You're gonna live there? Man is meshuga," you know. Uh, and, uh, I, I, about 10 years ago, I met a friend of mine, and actually they all kind of took a step back from me. They, they thought I really went off the deep end, and about 10 or 15 years ago, I bumped into a woman in Monsey, and we recognized each other. And she said to me, "Where did you go? You went to, like, a hick place." And I ass- reassured her that I'm frum. My children are frum. "Really?" I said, "Yeah, really." I'm... I told her my name, and I

56:05 Speaker 1 said, "So-" It, it was, um, it was something that the rabbi did that nobody did. Nobody. None of the rabbis.

56:17 Speaker 2 No, it's a great story for that reason, because a lot of times people talk about, you know, the rabbi being different or the rabbi s- being, being... Talking about things. Yes, today everyone talks about it, but back then he was literally the only p- the only person. And your story's a reflection of that because you were one of the people, I don't know how many there were, maybe there were some others, but there weren't too many who is going on shlichus but surrounded by everyone else. And the, the response is not just lukewarm, "Okay, whatever." It's like aghast, like, "What's wrong with you?" So that does indicate... You know, I don't know if you need proof, but it does reflect and it, it, it shows a little bit of, uh... It gives a little bit of, uh, context to this idea that, yeah, back in those days, shlichus was complete- shlichus and g- reaching out to other Yiden was completely off the table.

57:13 Speaker 1 It was completely off. Now, all these people, well, we see, we set a great example, who look at them and snag them with their kirov.

57:25 Speaker 2 Right.

57:26 Speaker 1 My cousins, those who thought I was crazy w- And they do a lot of traveling to Europe, the first thing they do is look for a Chabad house.

57:36 Speaker 2 Right.

57:36 Speaker 1 And I I have some cousins that I, I call, and they're always, uh, they say, "Can you hear? Did you hear? Esther, Esther makes her own... She only has shmalts on Pesach." You know, like, "Can you believe it? She does that?" You know. They, um... And I tell them, "Why?" I say, and I, I challenge them. I said, "I think I remember you used to do that." She says, "Yeah, but we can't. It's, you know... But we have a v- good Hershey oil." I said, "But you used to do that." You know, I, I challenge them. "You're the one that went down in your standards." So they laugh. I said, uh... And then they question me. "So you, you have, uh, a kosher milk?" You know, you... They go through all the products.

58:24 Speaker 2 Right.

58:25 Speaker 1 I said, "If I'm doing shmalts, you can be- believe me that I do the other things."

58:30 Speaker 2 That was very interesting.

58:31 Speaker 1 Yes.

58:32 Speaker 2 So you were describing to me earlier the, your landing in Detroit. Um, it was interesting how you described it. So, so, so take it, take us there. You land in Detroit, and what happens?

58:46 Speaker 1 And it's late. And, um, I think that's also what worried my mother. I didn't have a plan for her. I couldn't tell her, "We're arriving. Somebody's picking us up. There's a community." Uh, like, uh, you know, I-

59:03 Speaker 2 A bunch of happy-go, happy-go-lucky hillbillies, basically

59:06 Speaker 1 ... And she thought I was irresponsible, you know?

59:09 Speaker 2 It sounds like it.

59:10 Speaker 1 Yes. It, it does, right? Um, we land in Detroit and, uh, it's, it's... My husband says, "Do you want to go to Ann Arbor or do you want to go to this place called Oak Park? There's a Lubavitch community." I said, "One minute. Are we-- Where are we living?" He said, "We're living in Ann Arbor." I said, "Why would we go to Lubavitch community?" You know, that wouldn't... So again, he goes... I don't know where he found the car, but he did. He had made arrangements when he came here once before. And it was his first time driving.

59:47 Speaker 2 Your husband?

59:48 Speaker 1 I mean, my husband drove he... With a car that had no alignment. If my mother knew these stories, she would... She never did. We never told her this story. And we arrived to Ann Arbor in a little apartment. I was so excited 'cause, uh, there was fresh air. I could sleep outside if he wanted me to. It was like, wow. And we walk in and there's new carpet. I never... A new carpet. I didn't care how small the apartment was. We took our clothes, we made a bed, rolled it u- you know, just... And then came the fun part, 'cause now we have to get to work. Otto... So in the morning I said, I said to my husband, "So are we gonna meet the Yidden?" He said, "Yeah, come. I'll take you on campus." I said, "The Yidden are there?" "Yeah, the Yidden are there." And I was very innocent. He set up a little card table with Nechayef music and he said, "You stand here and you ask people, 'Are you Jewish?'" This is the first time in my life I'd ever did something like that.

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1:01:59 Speaker 1 And I said, "And that's how they come?" And he said, "Yeah, you'll... That's how they'll come." Well, I stood there for a long time, and I was, um... At that time I was expecting our, our first, and I thought, "Okay, Eibeshteh-" Rebbe, I need one hour for one Yid to appear if we're supposed to be here. And all of a sudden, a Yid comes running towards me, and I said, "Are you Jewish?" And he looked at me. "I'm... Are you Chabad?" I said, "Yeah, how do you know?" He, he said, "I've been waiting for you." I was, I was so thrilled. You could have given... tell me I won the lottery. I, I found a Yid. Well, I knew if I found a Mickey, there's a Minnie somewhere. And, uh, this person, uh, was with us for about forty-eight years of our fifty years.

1:02:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:55 Speaker 1 And he, um, I closed up my little table, took my cassette recorder, and went to Chabad House, very excited to tell my husband that I found one Yid. And he was very proud of me that I found one Yid. So, um, yeah.

1:03:14 Speaker 2 Did... Were you, were you wondering, like, "What am I even doing here?"

1:03:18 Speaker 1 I think, uh, when I was on campus, I was, like, like thinking, like, "Really? Is this how we... Is this what my husband thinks we're gonna do? Like, every day we're gonna come out here, and we're gonna find Yidden?" I'm like, "Where are they?" And-

1:03:35 Speaker 2 But do you at some point be, "Oh my goodness, I, I, I should have, I should have double-checked what this is"?

1:03:40 Speaker 1 No, I just thought it was like... I, I didn't, I didn't have any doubts that we should be here. But I think if I didn't meet that Yid, it would have been I would... I think my husband would have come back on campus with me, and they'd show him, "Found a Yid." And he was also excited to meet Yidden because one day he was driving, and he saw a Magen David on a car, and he followed it until it stopped at a hardware store. And it turned out it was a Hillel rabbi.

1:04:13 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:04:14 Speaker 1 So that's how they met. He followed it with the car, and he, uh... Finding another Yid was very special.

1:04:24 Speaker 2 So what, what was... You know, you're talking about the innocence that you had going on shlichus, but the truth is, at that time, there were very few campus shlichim. In fact, there were very few out there.

1:04:34 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:35 Speaker 2 You were one of the first group, first batch. So what was, what was the plan? Like, what was the, what was the path? Did you have any idea-

1:04:44 Speaker 1 Well, first of all-

1:04:45 Speaker 2 ... what, what, what was it going to look like?

1:04:46 Speaker 1 Any, any... Uh, we had a... I remember we had a fax machine, and I got super excited when my husband brought home a, a fax. I, I, I couldn't believe it. What's... There was no, um, connection to the outer world, you know, other than... Yeah, I, I, I remember at that time, long-distance calls were very expensive, and I felt like I needed to talk to someone. So I would call my sisters, and my husband said, "You know," he, he's like, "Whoa, you're really talking for long." 'Cause the, the phone bills were, like, they tell you you're on the phone for an hour or whatever. And I said, "That's the only people I can talk to." It took a long time for me to get involved in, in the community. I did meet... I had some wonderful stories of meeting students and, um, you know, very beautiful interactions with them, but students come and go, so it wasn't like I can create a, uh, a friendship with, uh, with very few people.

1:05:56 Speaker 2 D- is there any... Is there ever a point where you're like, uh, "What's, what, what is the plan? What's it gonna look like in ten years?"

1:06:05 Speaker 1 I don't know. I just know that, um, in the beginning, the, a difficult thing was I di- I grew up that you know someone forever, you know. And I get to know people, and the next thing they know, I know, they're moving. It's a very transient community.

1:06:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:24 Speaker 1 And then one day, somebody asked me, "How long are you staying?" I came home. I asked my husband, "How long are we staying?" He said, "Very simple." I said, "Really? Like, how long?" He said, "When we get our job done, we're out of here." So I, I f- I, I understood that until we meet every Yid, that it's, you know, the, um... I think that the vision-

1:06:51 Speaker 2 That there... There's never a time where you're like, "Okay, this is crazy"?

1:06:57 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, it's not that. You know what? I... There was never a time that I would think that I would do anything else. But there were times that I thought, "How are we gonna do it? H- like, how is this gonna happen?" Like, um, I remember once asking... Oh, I, I actually once sat down with my husband and I said, "How are we raising these children in this environment?" So he's told me something very wise, and he said, "In this house, you and I are the king and queen. Inside our house, we can't blame it on anyone. We set the tone. We set the rules. We set the atmosphere, and that is the same if we lived in Crown Heights, Williamsburg, Borough Park, wherever. So we happen to be in a place called Ann Arbor, so that's not gonna change." And, um, and that was really important to me. And I remember once speaking to my father-in-law. I was very... had a very wonderful relationship with my father-in-law. I actually learned Hasidus with him. It's a whole other story. And I asked him, because he was an educator, and I said, um, "So, you know, h- how's it gonna work?" He said, "Your children, you're not carrying the, the, um, responsibility yourself. The rebbe's sharing this with you." And he said in a very reassuring voice, mm-hmm. And that was-- That, I think that's the part that, um, not that concerned me, that I, you know, I paid attention to. And my kids all, uh,

1:08:46 Speaker 1 they were all part of our shlichas, no matter what was going on. We talk about it very often, um, that they were always part of it, part of the fun, part of the, uh, sometimes not such fun, um, but they were always part of it.

1:09:05 Speaker 2 What do you mean by not such fun?

1:09:07 Speaker 1 I mean, like, um, you know, if it was something that, uh, f-for them, maybe it was, uh, uh, I'm trying to think. You know, when we would have a lot of people, and we had a very small space, and then we just added a, a bigger space, and we would have people over, and I'd have to, um, improvise some plan of how, where, where were my kids gonna be. They were there with us, but sometimes, you know, I had to, um, you know, say, "Okay, do you mind sitting there?" And like little things, but I paid attention that they should never feel like, um, not part of it. It was-

1:09:59 Speaker 2 What was it like to send your kids away from home?

1:10:01 Speaker 1 That was difficult for me. Not for my husband, but for me. They had to get up, um, 6:30-- They had to be out of the house at 6:30.

1:10:11 Speaker 2 You're saying to go to Detroit?

1:10:13 Speaker 1 Not because school started at 7:30, because we didn't have a ride. And the person that we found, uh, uh, I could write a book about it, but my kids had to leave home very early in the morning. Um, we didn't want our kids to sleep there. I didn't want them to sleep there. I wanted them to be able to come home every day. And that meant, um, they had to be woken up at six AM. And it, the, the, that wasn't so easy for some of them, you know, to get-

1:10:49 Speaker 2 I'm sure

1:10:49 Speaker 1 ... and then they, you know.

1:10:51 Speaker 2 I'm sure it wasn't easy for any of them.

1:10:51 Speaker 1 Some of, most of them, some of them would say they're not feeling well. They d- They were fine, but they, getting up, you know, uh, six o'clock and being out of the house at six thirty, and it was, um... Yeah, but we, we didn't have a choice. There was no online school.

1:11:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:10 Speaker 1 Uh, the school that was opening here, we, we tried. We tried hard to make it a Torah sort of school, but they wanted a conservative school. We still got involved, and actually, our daughter has been teaching there. But for our children, they weren't, they weren't gonna lose out on anything that m-- uh, that children that grow up, you know, in Crown Heights have. And we-- Another thing that we did-

1:11:38 Speaker 2 But, but, but when it was difficult for your kids, at that point, did you feel, "Okay, maybe, maybe, maybe this..." I don't know, a mistake, that's too harsh, but, "Maybe this is more than I bargained for"?

1:11:51 Speaker 1 No, I try to think of how can we make it easier for them. Yeah, mm, so my husband would say, "Maybe they should sleep over," and they, they voted against it. N-None of my kids wanted to sleep over. Uh, we would, um, we would try to compensate for it. Uh, I remember that at one point, my kids said they don't wanna go to family's anymore in the morning, and they wanna go to their school, but there's no place to sit down. We need a couch. And I will never forget, my husband got them a couch, put it on his station wagon, and took it to Detroit to the school, and the kids had a couch.

1:12:36 Speaker 2 You're saying for the hour before school began?

1:12:37 Speaker 1 Um, yeah, within... Well, the, sometimes it was more than an hour. But today, no one would do that, to allow kids in a building themselves.

1:12:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:46 Speaker 1 That was, you know. But they, they said they needed a place to just relax, and there's no place there, so. So we always tried to, uh, pay attention to their needs. That wasn't gonna be secondary. That was, you know, um... I'm sure my kids, some of them maybe would say that, you know, we spent a lot of time with people, and sometimes they felt like they wish they had us more, um, because especially, you know, as people become bar mitzvahs, they really need you-

1:13:27 Speaker 2 Right

1:13:27 Speaker 1 ... quite a bit. And, um, yeah, so they were like, maybe they didn't like it, I will admit that, you know. But, um, but now they joke about it. What we did for the kids also, and that we would take them to New York for our shabbos, because, uh, things became quiet here.

1:13:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:56 Speaker 1 So this way they can be with the rebbe, and they could be with, uh, see their grandparents. Sometimes we would stay long enough that they could spend a week in a yeshiva there when they were little. Um, and they all are very appreciative that we did that. In those years, it was not easy with the speed limit of fifty-five. And yes, the cars were not as comfortable as they are today. No minivans. Um, uh, so, but we did that, and I remember once telling my mother-in-law, "I don't think I could do this again." And she said to me, "What would your sister-in-law in Australia do if she could get in the car to see the rebbe?" She says, "So then I was like, 'Okay, I won't complain.' I used to come to New York like you must be crazy."

1:14:54 Speaker 2 It's interesting for you also. It doesn't seem, from your story, it doesn't seem like you had that time in New York where you would be like, "I need to be back." Like, "I'm missing it terribly." It wasn't really a part of your life, really, at any point, right?

1:15:10 Speaker 1 Just being by the rebbe.

1:15:12 Speaker 2 How much, how, how much time did you have your life that was like that?

1:15:16 Speaker 1 Uh, before we left?

1:15:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:15:17 Speaker 1 About two years.

1:15:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:19 Speaker 1 Not much, but-

1:15:20 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:20 Speaker 1 ... my, um, so to speak, uh, building on my hiskashrus, when I got married, there was a bunch of older, um, Lubavitch, you know, the, from the Mrs. Susunkin and Mrs. Mentale, or rebbetzin for all of them. They saw me, I don't know what made them pull me in. They all were in the front row, and they saw there's a younger viable, and they would tell me in Yiddish, "Your eyes should just look one way." And they real- they... And that's how I got to see the Rebbe at hakafahs, 'cause somehow they took an interest in me. I guess I was that outcast look. And that really helped me a lot.

1:16:08 Speaker 2 This was after you were married?

1:16:10 Speaker 1 After I'm married, yeah. When I go to Farbrengens, they always spotted me and pulled me in and...

1:16:17 Speaker 2 But did you miss that when you were here in Ann Arbor? Or, I mean, it was only a couple years of your life. Did you feel like, whatever, this is just-

1:16:23 Speaker 1 In other words, you have to understand that I also had it before because I would go to Crown Heights to my sister's. I spent Shabbats in there.

1:16:32 Speaker 2 But did you... So you missed it here when you were here?

1:16:34 Speaker 1 I, I don't know if I, I miss... Um, I did miss my parents.

1:16:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:41 Speaker 1 Um, and the, and I don't know what I, I... Mostly it was that, a treat to be able to be with, see the Rebbe stand. We always, you know, went for Mincha. Rebbe gave us coins. We made sure to let the Rebbe know when we're leaving so that... It was almost like, uh, the Rebbe felt like a fatherly figure, that he cared. I think because of all those times that the Rebbe gave me that special attention, it made me feel like the Rebbe really cared about me.

1:17:23 Speaker 2 How did you see shlichus? How did you define it? Was it, you know, some Lubavitchers, some shluchim will say, you know, "I go on shlichus because..." We're here in the state of Michigan. There are many shluchim here who would say that shlichus, you go on shlichus to be mekushar to the Rebbe. That's why you go on shlichus, to be connected to the Rebbe. You know, in your situation where you are, kind of you become a Lubavitcher at the same time you become a shliach, more or less on the timeline.

1:17:54 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:54 Speaker 2 Is that why you went on shlichus, to be a mekushar? Like, why are you on shlichus? How are you explaining it? The way you've explained it so far has been, like, to, to reach out to other Jews, but g- explain to me a little bit how, like, how do you explain shlichus to yourself? What is it that you're doing here?

1:18:11 Speaker 1 Um-

1:18:12 Speaker 2 Like, at the time

1:18:13 Speaker 1 ... fulfill... Well, today, I, and I talk about it with people, is that fulfilling the mission that the Rebbe had at a time that he had a lot of opposition. When the Rebbe launched the concept of shlichus, there was tremendous opposition, and I feel very honored and privileged that we could be helping the Rebbe with his vision.

1:18:41 Speaker 2 But that's why you were doing it at the time?

1:18:42 Speaker 1 Not then.

1:18:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:44 Speaker 1 Now. Now that I've matured and I understand. Then I did it, um, well, just knowing that it was something important. How important it, it is-

1:18:55 Speaker 2 What was important?

1:18:57 Speaker 1 The idea of leaving your comfort of, and with all the comforts as far as, you know, food, friends, community, um, to be there for someone else. Now, th- today I have a different feeling about it. It's okay to have the comforts. It's okay. Today you can have the comforts, you know? Today, uh, we have no problem getting anything and everything. When we used to go in, you would think we had, I don't know, 15 kids. We were just two of us, and at one point a baby, but we came back like, like we were never gonna see food again. Um, and then we realized, you know what? You can live without fresh cottage cheese. A lot of things started getting off our list, and once that happened, you could start seeing the bigger picture. And I think, um, seeing the bigger picture is like putting the puzzle pieces together. When I think of the people we met, uh, and, and how we met them, it was like crazy stories. Like, and that this was all... Now if we put it together, it's, uh, it's amazing. Uh, there was a woman who got up last Shabbos for Gimmel Tammuz, is one of our... Most of our bachurahs moved away.

1:20:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:30 Speaker 1 We have, uh, very few that live here. And she said, and she talked about her hiskashrus when she, it, that she never met the Rebbe, and says, "How is it that I can be connected?" And she spoke so beautifully. Like you, like it was, it was so heartwarming that she gets it. And I think that over the years, first of all, I've learned to appreciate people making changes in their life. I used to joke with my husband, said, "We would not make good bachurahs." Somebody comes along to you and says, "Change everything about yourself You know, I don't know if I, I could do that. And I've gotten to a point where I tremendously appreciate little steps that people do. And like, uh, they may not, not, you know, they may not be doing it ninety-eight percent of Yiddishkeit, but they have a feeling to do that one percent or two percent, and that it's... Uh, I have a woman who's, um... She's from Sweden, and unfortunately, she married a, a, a Swedish non-Jew. And she said, "I wish I met you when I lived in Sweden." But now she's-- she observes her mother's Yiddishkeit. She said, "I would not have done that had I not met you." And I, I always tell her, "It's not me." I, I try to give all the credit to the Rebbe because it was the Rebbe's vision. And, and it-- what the Rebbe taught me is that you may have opposition, but don't let that stop you from

1:22:12 Speaker 1 following your vision.

1:22:14 Speaker 2 Why is it so important to you as you mature... Like, you said that you matured in your vision of self. So why is it so important to make it all about the Rebbe as opposed to earlier?

1:22:27 Speaker 1 I think 'cause I, I can see it clearer. It's not my... It, it... You know, it's, it's, um... You know, it's like, it's, it's like growing up. Okay? It-- there's certain amount of years you're always focused on yourself. It's almost like a very selfish part of your life. It's all about you. You have to have this. I need this. I need that. You get married. I want this. I want that. And then as life continues, uh, you know, you wake up one day, and you say, "Wow. One minute. It's not only about me." And all of a sudden, you begin to appreciate your parents. I now appreciate my parents more than ever before because they had laid a certain foundation. And I tell people become baal teshuvas, and their parents are not frum. You owe the credit to your parents. They did something for you.

1:23:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:25 Speaker 1 That, you know... And I think that's the maturity that I'm appreciating, that I'm-- I, I can see a, a big picture here unfolding.

1:23:38 Speaker 2 What do you mean by the big picture?

1:23:40 Speaker 1 The, that ... It's not just, um, leaving Crown Heights and, um, you know, having less noise, purer air. That's not what it's about. And, um, actually, I just had a group of girls that came to for brain care, counselors from different places, and I said, "You're a shlichus whether you live wherever you are." You know, if you can say a good morning to someone and make their day, you did a shlichus. And, and I think the, the, the word shlichus needs to be redefined for everyone because some people don't... They're not gonna go to another place. That's okay. It's okay. Um, you... As long as you are making the world a better place. I, I, I was telling the girls, "If you just know the letter Alef, teach it to someone." Like, you can be, you can be on shlichus every day. Find an opportunity that you made the world better. And, um, and I-- and personally, and I don't know. I should say my husband, I don't know if he would think the same as me, but, um, I really feel that people need to know that they can be on shlichus wherever they are. And even if, uh, you're with frum people, you, you know, if you're a teacher in a cheder or in a yeshiva, and there's a kid struggling, if you pay extra attention to that kid, and you make this kid's life, you did a shlichus. So that's what I mean to redefine it, and that's what the Rebbe wanted.

1:25:34 Speaker 1 Wherever you are, you know? I happened to end up here in Ann Arbor. I don't know if I would have had the same, same feeling if I lived in Crown Heights. Now I can't imagine myself living there. I once came back to New York, and I was visiting my mother, and I said, "Oh, the noise is so loud here." And she said, "Don't forget that you come from New Y- you're, you, you're from Brooklyn." I said, "I won't forget it." She-- I've almost got insulted.

1:26:10 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

1:26:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Anyhow.

1:26:14 Speaker 2 You, you told me earlier that when you were... when you first landed in Detroit, and your husband went to look for the car to take-- that he eventually brought you to Ann Arbor, you sat down and wrote a poem. Do you remember what the poem said?

1:26:28 Speaker 1 I just felt very excited. I don't even know what I thought would happen, like, um... And also, I, I find there were so many nice surprises and, um, uh, along the way, and I felt like, wow, you know, if we were struggling financially, and then all of a sudden somebody, you know, decides to give a, a donation. I was like, "Whoa. Okay. We're not alone. We're not doing this alone." And that's, that's really, um, that's a tremendous reminder to me. I'm not doing this alone. I could never do this alone. And I tell people here who become baal teshuvahs, "You can't live a life in a place like this if you're doing it alone." You need a, you need a rebbe. You need that

1:27:28 Speaker 2 So after, after being a shliach for 50 years, and there, there frankly aren't that many people. There are, but in the grand scheme of things, there aren't that many shlichim who have been in one place for 50 years. And, um, what would you say is your proudest accomplishment or proudest achievement of, of, of, of this 50-year journey that has been quite, uh, remarkable?

1:27:55 Speaker 1 Oh, that's a very tough question because I don't want to take the credit to myself or ourselves. Um, I, I think my appreciation of every Yid, that no matter... You know, I've met, um, I've met some of our own, meaning in Lubavitch, kids who have, who have gone astray a little bit, and I feel like if only, um, people would reach out to them. I, I see... We're very good in outreach to the world, but we should also remember that we should do in-reach because amongst our, um, our frum community, people need the same kind of warmth and a phone call, and, uh, all the things we do to make people feel important are so important to everyone, you know? I was telling, I was telling, um, somebody that I was walking home two weeks ago. It was a very hot day. Very, very hot. I was almost home, and the guy who owns, uh, a, an ice cream store, it's not kosher, but he said to me, "I'd like to offer you some water." And he says, "You know, I really like your husband." And I know why he said that, 'cause when my husband walks, he says hello to people. He, he... All the people who have a business know him 'cause he takes the time to say hello to them and ask them how they are. And he insisted, and the funny thing is, I told him, "I, you know, I'm just..." He knows I live up the block. He says, "But

1:29:50 Speaker 1 I really want to give you water." And he gave me a bottle, and I said, "But I have a problem 'cause it's our Sabbath. I can't carry the bottle, and I'm not going to be able to drink it all." He says, "That's not a problem. I just want to give you the water." And to me, it was... I told him, "You know, there's still goodness and kindness in the world." And then that's, those are the things that really, they speak to me very deeply. You know? There should be no reason for division. No reason. And if anybody knows it well, we Lubavitchers know about that. You know, this meet another Yid, doesn't matter what you see. That's, that's, that to me is what 50 years did to me personally.

1:30:40 Speaker 2 So thank you very much, Rebbetzin Golse.

1:30:43 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:30:43 Speaker 2 It's a very nice way to end this, and, uh, thank you much. Thank you very much for the time-

1:30:48 Speaker 1 Okay. Give it-

1:30:48 Speaker 2 And the story.

1:30:50 Speaker 1 Okay. Thank you.

1:30:53 Speaker 2 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Sor and Adav Bahar, and is used with their permission.