Ep. 73 // "Today We're All The Same" w/ Rabbi Binyomin Scheiman

00:00 Speaker 1 But I always tell them, "Listen, buddies, you have to come. Well, Thomas know where he's from. Everybody's the same." Lubavitcher kid today is as fragile and as much in need as the love, and the patience, and the long game as the kid from public school. They're not any less. They're... Treat them the same. They're not diff- They're not Lubavitcher kids. They're kids that need a lot of love and attention today. Doesn't matter who their parents are, doesn't matter the clothes they're wearing or the... It, it, it is... A lot of that could be shallow. It might not go run deep. Y- you know, you have to j- j- k- just forget about that. You get a kid, love him.

00:39 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2025. My name is Benji Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We're here for another episode of Homesick for Lubavitch here in Chicago, in the lovely suburb of Des Plaines or Des Plaines, with the one and only notorious Rabbi Binyomin Shaiman. Did I get that right?

01:15 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

01:15 Speaker 2 I got that all right. All right. Let's see where it goes from here. It's been a long day of, uh, filming in Chicago and getting to see a little bit the lay of the land of Lubavitch in Chicago, and that follows a red-eye flight from North California, where I was filming in another Chabad House yesterday, which was also very beautiful to see. And, uh, that follows a day of Homesick for Lubavitch in San Francisco and Palo Alto. So it's been a week of Lubavitch, and I haven't slept much. So you could blame, you could blame the delirium on either of those two on either of those two factors. Anyways, anybody listening and who appreciates the fact that I don't sleep to get these things done, please like and subscribe on the various platforms, and if you are a shtickel mensch and have rachmanus on me, um, feel free to donate at hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyways, after that, uh, aside, Rabbi Shaiman, thank you very much for doing this.

02:25 Speaker 1 It's my pleasure.

02:26 Speaker 2 Thank you. Let me get the microphone to face you. Okay. And let's begin from the beginning, shall we? What... Where does the story of Rabbi Shaiman begin?

02:39 Speaker 1 The story of Rabbi Shaiman doesn't begin with Rabbi Shaiman. I- if you could see in back of me, there's a picture of a, a baby on one of the frames there, and there's a sister and a brother in it, and, um, it starts with my sister. She was about 14. Um, she went to, uh... I don't know where she was davening or which rabbi got her attention, but, um, she decided the family has to become Shomer Shabbos. I was the youngest in the family of five. We lived in Queens. And, uh, my parents were kosher, but both sides, um, you know, they weren't, uh, Shomer Shabbos. They weren't doing anything, but the queen rules the house, the, the 14-year-old girl, and she convinced my parents to sell the house. They had just bought a house. I don't think they ever had a house the rest of their life after that, 'cause they had to pay tuitions. And they moved to Brighton Beach. They moved to Brooklyn, to Brighton Beach, and I started off at five years old, six years old in first grade. I never... I only went to Jewish day school. And, uh, uh, just to fast-forward a little, aft- after that, um, eventually my sister, she moved. She married a Frum guy. They went to, to do teach in... I think they went to, um, Virginia, then they moved to Israel. They made Aliyah. And, uh, after six kids, somehow she, um, decided she wanted to go a different direction. Uh, they, they

04:19 Speaker 1 didn't stay married. And, uh, by one of my parents, I think it was by my father's shiva, I was sitting with my sister, and she said, "Listen, I guess the plan was I had to become Frum, so you become a Shliach of the Rebbe, but now you're a Shliach of the Rebbe." So I did my job . Uh, but at that time... So, uh, me, my sister, and my brother, we all enrolled in, um, in Jewish school, but I started from grade one.

04:43 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it... That, that is a... Obviously she said it as a joke, but I, I, I fi- I feel more and more that that's really the story of life. Um, the idea that you're in or you're out, or that you know... Like, the idea that, like, um, we understand cause and effect, or that the cause, if it... That if something caused something else to happen, it must be more legitimate than what it caused, right? Or it must be more mefusas, more based.

05:14 Speaker 1 No, though she took comfort that something very good came out of this whole move.

05:18 Speaker 2 But then she went on her own path.

05:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:20 Speaker 2 So okay. But they... That's the wildness of life.

05:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:22 Speaker 2 Not everything, not everything makes sense. Not everything is linear.

05:26 Speaker 1 Right.

05:27 Speaker 2 Not everything, not everything is logical. And, and I, I, I find that it's just, in many ways, that's what makes things so interesting.

05:35 Speaker 1 Right. So, um, in Yeshivah Brighton, I still had never went to Crown Heights. I never saw the Rebbe, and I don't... I, I-

05:44 Speaker 2 Wait, you don't... You've even heard of? Why would you, why would you go see the-

05:47 Speaker 1 Probably not.

05:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:48 Speaker 1 Probably not. Yeah.

05:49 Speaker 2 What kind of community was it in Brighton?

05:51 Speaker 1 It's-

05:51 Speaker 2 Survivors?

05:53 Speaker 1 Um, just simple Pashte Yidden. Um-

05:57 Speaker 2 Right

05:57 Speaker 1 ... the, the... Actually, one of the place I daven, Beach Haven Jewish Center, was... That's the place that Fred Trump- Gave land for

06:06 Speaker 2 Uh

06:07 Speaker 1 I lived right across the street from Trump Towers, and, uh, and that's... And that w- yeah, those were survivors. He came over-

06:12 Speaker 2 Trump Towers or Trump Village?

06:14 Speaker 1 Huh?

06:14 Speaker 2 It's called Trump Towers?

06:15 Speaker 1 No, Trump Village.

06:16 Speaker 2 Trump Village.

06:17 Speaker 1 There was a... Right.

06:17 Speaker 2 That's a famous, that's a famous, uh, point of contention.

06:21 Speaker 1 Right. No, no, it's, it's Trump Village.

06:23 Speaker 2 Between the, between the two, between the two Trumps.

06:24 Speaker 1 Right.

06:25 Speaker 2 Uh.

06:25 Speaker 1 Right. So, um, yeah, so it was, it was... I guess those were survivors, and my parents were both born in America, but they're both, um, children of, uh, of people that came over earlier, but they-

06:37 Speaker 2 Right

06:38 Speaker 1 ... so I don't know the backstory, but in the Yeshivah of Brighton, we only had, like, five or six kids in our class. It was very small, so it must've been a dying, um, yeshivah. And one year, I think four or five young Aderaid came to teach. Mola Butman was one of them. My teacher was David Rimler. Um, and there was Rabbi Suns, Rabbi Brunstein. There, there was at least four Lubavitcher teachers came in to the school. And again, there must be some backstory to it, but I don't know who-

07:12 Speaker 2 They were married?

07:14 Speaker 1 He... They, they were married. Yeah, they were all married and, um, but obviously very young. They must've-

07:21 Speaker 2 Right

07:22 Speaker 1 ... um-

07:22 Speaker 2 Or some kinda deal was, was, was crafted somewhere

07:25 Speaker 1 There was that I don't know and, and, and because-

07:28 Speaker 2 They probably, they probably were desperate for teachers. That's probably what happened

07:31 Speaker 1 Right. But why four Lubavitchers? I don't know.

07:33 Speaker 2 'Cause Lubavitch is probably the only group that answered them. That's probably what happened. I mean, that's how my father ended up in Hong Kong.

07:39 Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah. But again, w- that-

07:43 Speaker 2 You don't know why

07:43 Speaker 1 ... that. I do know that David Rimler is a very instrumental part of my life. Uh, he's, he's one of the next key figures. Before we get to the Aleph and Beis of Yiddishkeit of Rimler and Beryl, where we have to start with the Daled, with David Rimler.

07:58 Speaker 2 He's the Jekorol owner?

08:00 Speaker 1 Yes.

08:00 Speaker 2 He's the one that sits in Jekorol today?

08:02 Speaker 1 Yes.

08:02 Speaker 2 All right.

08:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:03 Speaker 2 At, at the computer most of the time.

08:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

08:05 Speaker 2 Really?

08:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:07 Speaker 2 Huh.

08:08 Speaker 1 He's, uh, 80 plus now.

08:11 Speaker 2 Really? Is it the same Rimler that I'm thinking about?

08:14 Speaker 1 It's, it-

08:14 Speaker 2 Maybe it's his son

08:14 Speaker 1 ... yeah. No, you must see his son. I mean, the, his father stands upstairs.

08:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Wow.

08:21 Speaker 1 So, uh, so in any case, um, he, in the seventh grade, he invited me and another boy, um, Avi Galgrab. Uh, he lives now in Flatbush. He has a son that I think is a Schlief in England, Levi Galgrab. Levi Galgrab is the one who does the Frum side, if you saw the cartoon-

08:42 Speaker 2 No

08:42 Speaker 1 ... series that came out.

08:44 Speaker 2 Okay.

08:45 Speaker 1 So, um, me and Avi Galgrab, we went to... He invited us to Crown Heights, and I remember we went on That's the first time I went to 770. Um, I was in 770 either before, maybe the year before or maybe the year after because I also sang in a choir, which I went to sing in East Flatbush one Rosh Hashanah by JJ Hechscher.

09:16 Speaker 2 Wow.

09:16 Speaker 1 So him, I was with the Sable twins and with the, um, and with the Hecht twins, and we all walked to 770 for Tashlikh. But I don't know if I saw the Rebbe then. But by this Fabregen, by that Shabbos, that's the first time that I, uh, came to 770, and that summer is when I went to Gan Yisroel, and that was after Swan Lake closed. I went the first year. It was only one year in Livingston Manor, and then after that, uh, you know, the following years was, was Parksville. And, uh, so the first Ma'aseret of the Rebbe I went to was Gan Yisroel, and, uh, that's my Aleph of Yiddishkeit, of Ramal Shamtov, and I'm always grateful for that. And, uh, it's like, uh, as, as you can see, camp, the, the reason I came on Shlichus was because of camp.

10:06 Speaker 2 Well, we're gonna get to it for sure.

10:07 Speaker 1 Right, right. So, um, and, uh, so following-

10:13 Speaker 2 But what drew you to Fabregen in the first place?

10:16 Speaker 1 He invited us for Shabbos.

10:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

10:18 Speaker 1 We're two boys in his class. He said, "Come... You wanna come to my house for Shabbos?"

10:22 Speaker 2 So just, just out of curiosity?

10:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. We didn't go... We didn't know where we were going. We know we're going to Crown Heights, and obviously he probably during the year... He taught us both seventh and eighth grade. We had David Rimler for two years.

10:33 Speaker 2 So you were 13 years old about when you come to the Fabregen?

10:36 Speaker 1 I was, uh, 11 the first time I came to 770.

10:40 Speaker 2 Oh, so seventh grade.

10:41 Speaker 1 And a week later I turned 12.

10:42 Speaker 2 So seventh grade is the first time you came.

10:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:45 Speaker 2 And, and how did it strike you then?

10:48 Speaker 1 I remember it was not yet expanded, so it was closer in, uh, and then we were f- inside for a while, but then we, uh, got bored. We went out, and we went... There w- the whole area, which is now locked off n- now, we went down the side past the elevator. There was the... Furnace was open. I remember s- sitting over there with my fam by the furnace, uh, warming up. We went in the wintertime.

11:14 Speaker 2 Right. So it was very cold.

11:17 Speaker 1 I, I, I think so.

11:18 Speaker 2 So you went to warm up?

11:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I, I... That, I don't remember much more than that. You know-

11:23 Speaker 2 So-

11:23 Speaker 1 ... we were there for Shabbos.

11:24 Speaker 2 Right.

11:24 Speaker 1 And the next time I was back wasn't, uh, that, that, uh, w- I wasn't a frequent visitor.

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12:53 Speaker 1 No, no.

12:54 Speaker 2 You weren't, you weren't grabbed by it.

12:55 Speaker 1 No. No.

12:57 Speaker 2 All right.

12:57 Speaker 1 But that is the first time.

12:59 Speaker 2 Right.

12:59 Speaker 1 I, I didn't say, "Okay, we're going every week." No.

13:02 Speaker 2 Right.

13:02 Speaker 1 No.

13:03 Speaker 2 Or, "I have to be a little babatra after this."

13:05 Speaker 1 No.

13:06 Speaker 2 Right.

13:06 Speaker 1 Right.

13:07 Speaker 2 Why'd you go to camp? Just 'cause it was an option?

13:09 Speaker 1 Number one, yep, we went to camp. Why? I guess, again, if you have a Hasid as your teacher, and he probably told the stories of Hasidim, he probably told the stories of the Rebbe. I remember we used to say Tehillim out loud every day. We'd do the share Tehillim with us, go around the classroom.

13:26 Speaker 2 Right.

13:26 Speaker 1 We had to read... That's the way he was teaching us how to read Hebrew, the Tehillim.

13:30 Speaker 2 Right.

13:31 Speaker 1 And, and came to the summer. He, he got us into Gan Yisroel.

13:36 Speaker 2 Right.

13:36 Speaker 1 So I remember the four or five boys from the class went to, went to Gan Yisroel.

13:40 Speaker 2 And what were your impressions of Gan Yisroel?

13:44 Speaker 1 I still look at the people that were my counselors then, the first people I met, I see them now 50, 60 years later, I still think they're my counselors.

13:54 Speaker 2 Like who?

13:55 Speaker 1 Shalom Duchman, Mola Lipsker, uh-

13:58 Speaker 2 Oh, no kidding

13:58 Speaker 1 ... uh, and, and they were in Li- uh, in, uh, it, you know-

14:04 Speaker 2 So you-

14:04 Speaker 1 That, that whole gang

14:05 Speaker 2 ... so you landed in deep gej, like, from the, from the get-go.

14:08 Speaker 1 Right, right. And, uh, yeah. Those were, those were the boys. But now when- whenever I see, I mean, Shalom Duchman, he's a grown man, I'm a grown man, but he's still-

14:19 Speaker 2 He's still your counselor

14:20 Speaker 1 ... he's still... It, it's like you don't lose it. I was very impressed. Was very impressed. I learnt more from Gan Yisroel than from any other mesivta.

14:30 Speaker 2 Really? Hmm.

14:33 Speaker 1 Nine years in Gan Yisroel. Think of, either five as a camper, and then, uh, 'cause it went up to 15, six week- 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.

14:43 Speaker 2 Huh.

14:44 Speaker 1 And then four years later as a staff member.

14:47 Speaker 2 Okay. So, so what's happening in between camp during the year in those years?

14:53 Speaker 1 So after eighth grade, there was a battle for my neshamah.

14:57 Speaker 2 Between?

14:58 Speaker 1 Between... I was in eighth grade, so Yeshivah Brighton's not a Lubavitch Yeshivah, so there were Litvisher Yidden coming, also opening up different mesivtas back then. What is this? This is, I went the first year that Ocean Parkway opened. 'Cause I remember I went for a ferher, I had to go down to Bedford and Dean, and the Sunday I went for the ferher, that's when there was the fire in Bedford and Dean. Couldn't get tested that week. Had to go back a, another week. And then I started off in, in Ocean Park because we're talking about that time, I guess, the Litvisher were also, they were looking, and the, all the Rabbonim in the shuls in Brighton Beach, they told my parents, said, "You know, your son has such a Gemara kop. If he goes to these and these yeshivas, he'll become who knows what. If he goes to Lubavitch, you know what's gonna happen to him? He's gonna become a Tillim zagger. That's what's gonna happen to him. You want your son to become a Tillim zagger? Send him to Lubavitch."

15:58 Speaker 2 Is that what happened?

16:00 Speaker 1 Well, I did go to Lubavitch, and I did become a Tillim zagger. I, in fact, this year by my birthday, I made a achlata. I've been doing davening Melavs Tom for years, but it's been almost 40 years I was also doing Rav Moshe ben Maimon's Tillim. But this year I took on achlata to really do it the right way.

16:20 Speaker 2 Rambam.

16:21 Speaker 1 Rambam. But it's not just Tillim zaggen, but, uh-

16:24 Speaker 2 And how's it going?

16:26 Speaker 1 I've seen more brachos since I started that achlata than any other achlata I ever made in my life.

16:31 Speaker 2 Oh, what kind of brachos?

16:34 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll... I've never raised as much money in such a short period of time, just out, money just falling in all over the place.

16:41 Speaker 2 Mames.

16:42 Speaker 1 And, and I'm not meeting Baal HaVatim. I'm learning with the Rambam.

16:46 Speaker 2 Really?

16:47 Speaker 1 Really.

16:48 Speaker 2 Huh.

16:50 Speaker 1 And other such brachos. Very good things. I highly recommend it.

16:54 Speaker 2 Are, are you in general, like, a, a miracle seer? Like, you see miracles all the time, or this is unusual for you?

17:02 Speaker 1 I, I would say I appreciate, uh-

17:06 Speaker 2 See-

17:07 Speaker 1 I, I appreciate brachos from the Rebbes and miracles, and I, I, I would say I live a pretty miraculous type of a life.

17:14 Speaker 2 Right.

17:14 Speaker 1 So I'm not un- But there's some, I mean, there's some people that they really have... I'm not one of those guys who just, like, it's, you know, but-

17:24 Speaker 2 There's a, it's unusual this time around

17:26 Speaker 1 ... the, I, I'm noticing the change. I, I go every month to the Rebbe. That's another achlata I made after COVID, not to miss 30 days without seeing the Rebbe. So I've been traveling every month, and every time, the last time I had to kvetch to the Rebbe, I can't remember. It's been month after month and month, asher tzevas and thanking the Reb- asher tzevas and thanking the Rebbe, asher tzevas and thanking the Rebbe since I, since I'm coming. And then after this Rambam bit, oh boy, it's heavy.

17:59 Speaker 2 Really? Hmm.

18:01 Speaker 1 Heavy brachos.

18:03 Speaker 2 How about that?

18:05 Speaker 1 So three perakim keep the doctor away.

18:11 Speaker 2 Keep the doctor away.

18:12 Speaker 1 Definitely. When I go to the doctor's office, they ask me, "What, tell me all, all the medicines that you take." I don't take any.

18:26 Speaker 2 They don't believe you.

18:27 Speaker 1 Think... No, they don't.

18:28 Speaker 2 Of course not.

18:29 Speaker 1 So I, I, I don't tell them that, but I'll tell you it's, um, I take, I take different, uh, medicines from Rebbe medicine-

18:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

18:38 Speaker 1 ... every day.

18:39 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

18:39 Speaker 1 Different, uh, different shiurim, different things I learn, but the Rambam, that's all, man, that's unbelievable.

18:44 Speaker 2 That's the real medicine.

18:45 Speaker 1 Yes. Definitely.

18:45 Speaker 2 That's the, that's the real penicillin over there.

18:48 Speaker 1 Definitely.

18:48 Speaker 2 So, so, so you, you go to Lubavitch Yeshiva, and-

18:51 Speaker 1 Right. So I went to Lubavitch Yeshiva, and, um, um, my-- I went through all the Rabbonim of Lubavitch. Rabbi Malov was my first, uh, Rebbe, had, uh, Rabbi Shve. Eventually I had Rabbi Azver, Rabbi Heller in-- later in Morristown. But c- came a key part, um, I still was not, um, what you'd say, uh... Uh, I, I was a boy from Brighton Beach that was going to Lubavitch Yeshiva, and all the guys from camp knew me, and I was like a cute kid and popular, and, you know, everybody liked me. I remember going to Crown Heights once in a while. Like I'd, I'd sleep over by, by the Duchman's house, and their cousin Draboshkin's would come over, and this and that, and, you know, just run with the wild kids and, but also I was friends with the other boys in the yeshiva who weren't from Crown Heights.

19:45 Speaker 2 Right.

19:46 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, I went all the way up till twelfth grade, then came at, uh, when I was 11, and I went that time 770, and then Rabbi Rimla found out it was my birthday the next week. He said, "Man, if I would've known, I would have arranged a yechidas."

20:03 Speaker 2 At 11 years old?

20:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. To get in. So subsequent to that, he-- uh, I, I was going in for yechidas by my birthday.

20:12 Speaker 2 And what, what did that mean to you in those days?

20:13 Speaker 1 I, it, it, it, it... I knew I was going for yechidas. I, you know, prepared whatever I did at, at whatever level. Um, and usually it was 10 seconds, in and out. Uh, th- the interesting note is that I wrote my chat in English every single time, and it's interesting to note the Rebbe never spoke to me in English.

20:38 Speaker 2 Hmm.

20:40 Speaker 1 The Rebbe only spoke to me in Yiddish. And-

20:44 Speaker 2 And you spoke Yiddish?

20:45 Speaker 1 No.

20:46 Speaker 2 You, you didn't understand what you were saying?

20:47 Speaker 1 I did.

20:50 Speaker 2 Huh.

20:52 Speaker 1 Um-

20:52 Speaker 2 Was this-

20:52 Speaker 1 ... Rabbi Malov after yechidas said, "Look, the Rebbe's speaking to you in Yiddish. Would you start speaking Yiddish?"

20:57 Speaker 2 What's that supposed to mean in your mind?

20:59 Speaker 1 I, I don't know. Still today, I, I guess I should speak Yiddish. It-

21:04 Speaker 2 Do you speak Yiddish?

21:04 Speaker 1 But I just don't.

21:05 Speaker 2 You still don't?

21:06 Speaker 1 Uh, if, if, if I'm really forced, if I'm really forced, but not, uh... It doesn't roll off my tongue.

21:12 Speaker 2 Do you understand Yiddish?

21:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:14 Speaker 2 You do understand?

21:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Farbrengen, as they say. Yeah. Yeah, no problem.

21:18 Speaker 2 Right.

21:20 Speaker 1 But-

21:20 Speaker 2 Did you grow up with Yiddish in your house from your grandparents or-

21:23 Speaker 1 No, no. I didn't have any grandparents. I, I was born without grandparents. I'm the youngest of my mother and father are the youngest of each.

21:31 Speaker 2 I see.

21:32 Speaker 1 He's the youngest boy, she's the youngest girl.

21:34 Speaker 2 And you're the youngest.

21:35 Speaker 1 And I, um, um, I have n- I never had a bubbe or zeide on either side.

21:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

21:41 Speaker 1 So my mother spoke Yiddish. She, she was a Yiddish speaker, but she spoke English in the house.

21:47 Speaker 2 Hmm.

21:48 Speaker 1 Not, not Yiddish. So when it came to, um, graduating, so my brother and sister, they both went to college, and my parents never heard the concept of somebody not going to college. So at that, already by four years in Ocean Parkway, I told my parents, "Listen, I, I'll have to ask the Rebbe." They said, "You don't have to go to Brooklyn College. Maybe you'll go to Israel, Hebrew University," this and that. I said, "I have to ask the Rebbe." And, um, when-- by that yechidas when I asked the Rebbe, the Rebbe said, "Az zulst nakh gehn di seudah fun tem kheyte mim." So I stayed. So I stayed after, after Ocean Parkway, I went to Morristown. I think I was supposed to... I was from Rabbi Lushpaugh's class. I heard-- I think if I would-- the seudah would've been to go to Rabbi Bukiet, stay one more year. But I guess the yeshiva wanted me to keep me. They fast-tracked me into Morristown. And, uh, I think Eliyahu Kamolth, the first time he taught, I was one of his guinea pigs, one of the... That was the first class he taught. Officially, I was supposed to like maybe be, say three years, but at the end I stayed two years. And, um, then in Morristown, had another milestone. Came to yeshiva. I had a hat. I had a jacket.

23:11 Speaker 2 So one sec. One second. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead, Rabbi. You were going this direction.

23:14 Speaker 1 But, but the guys running sash, Yisroel Brud and Shaya Gansburg, they had to go out to speak to these rabbis. They say, "Could-- "They both said, "Could I borrow your suit?" 'Cause it was like a colorful suit, you know, that there. He wanted to go out. So I didn't come with a black hat and a black suit. I was wearing whatever I had, and I had a nice kipah on my head. And, um, and one of the farbrengens, Meir Lipswust, was, was, was farbrengen... I don't know what farbrengen, why he was talking about the atom bomb and the hydrogen bomb, but he said the biggest bomb is for the Veyter bomb. That's the biggest bomb there is. And for whatever reason, I, I guess he, he, he might have said something about, uh, you know, I might wanna think about taking off my hair.

24:00 Speaker 2 Your hair-- Oh, you had long hair at the time.

24:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. So I went to, uh... I'm a Kabbalah Salek, so I listened, and, um, I went to the guy. The, the guy giving the haircuts was a guy, Reb Nisen. He was the janitor, and he gave haircuts. And then I, uh, remember as I was looking in the mirror and all my hair is coming off, and I... My hair was like this till today. I was crying. There were... Hair was like trauma-- a little traumatized, but-

24:26 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah

24:26 Speaker 1 ... and then I had to warn my parents when I come home.

24:30 Speaker 2 But the years before that in yeshiva, you were, you were with long hair and nobody bothered you?

24:35 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

24:36 Speaker 2 So what was your deal? You're, you're like-

24:37 Speaker 1 I'm sort of cute. I'm the guy from Brighton Beach. He's in-

24:39 Speaker 2 So like a non-Lubavitcher hanging out in a Lubavitch yeshiva kind of thing.

24:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

24:43 Speaker 2 So you get, you get the, you get special dispensations.

24:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

24:47 Speaker 2 Like, we're, we're excited that you're a part of our group-

24:49 Speaker 1 Right

24:49 Speaker 2 ... but you're not.

24:50 Speaker 1 Right.

24:51 Speaker 2 We, we can't-- we don't have full leverage over you.

24:52 Speaker 1 Put it this way, in today in a Chabad house, which liar wants all the guys to walk around with kapotes and beards? I'd much rather have the guys just come in like regular people, and then-

25:03 Speaker 2 Only the suicidal ones, yeah.

25:06 Speaker 1 So it's sort of like that, you know? You...

25:10 Speaker 2 Right. No, but, uh, it's just that like today it would be unheard of for, to let a kid hang out in yeshiva for years and break the quorum like that and, and basically, uh, you know, trample on protocol.

25:23 Speaker 1 Right. So I'm very, um, cognizant of that fact, and therefore, when I go around to mesivtas all over the place and look at bachurim, I know where I came from. I know how I, I was treated. So like, why would I give a, give people a break? Come on. I turned out okay.

25:41 Speaker 2 All right. So-

25:41 Speaker 1 I didn't, I didn't turn out bad.

25:43 Speaker 2 Right. So you, you can make sense of what's going on today?

25:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, just come on. People are just being people.

25:49 Speaker 2 Okay. What happens, though, when it's more than one person? What happens when it's a majority of people being people? That doesn't lead to absolute anarchy?

25:58 Speaker 1 Well-

25:59 Speaker 2 I'm playing devil's advocate here a little bit.

26:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, I-

26:01 Speaker 2 Although, although I think it's-

26:02 Speaker 1 I, I think when, when, uh, in, in the chafs and lameds and mems, until I got married, I... There was no... It was, it w- it was not, um, unusual for there to be bachurim that were having the same challenges as today. I don't know if it was more or less. I don't know if it's h- Maybe the population's bigger, so it's more.

26:24 Speaker 2 Right.

26:24 Speaker 1 But I don't think... I don't know if percentages are bigger or maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But it's not like a new thing.

26:30 Speaker 2 Oh, I'm not, I'm not weighing, I'm not weighing today-

26:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

26:32 Speaker 2 ... against then. Uh, tho- those years have no, have no, um-

26:36 Speaker 1 Right

26:36 Speaker 2 ... author... Like, they have no bearing on my, on my argument here. I, I, I don't, I don't look, look at them as, with some kind of nostalgic fondness. It's more that if you let peop- like, it's, it's, it's cute when it's one guy in the yeshiva, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, he's a guy. He's from Brighton Beach, Yeshiva Brighton. He's, like, from outside. We're being mekarav him." But, like, he, the fact that he's breaking the rules doesn't show on everybody else. Like, there's ways to kind of-

27:04 Speaker 1 Right. I always say-

27:05 Speaker 2 ... get around it. But then your argument, which I've heard from a number of people on this podcast already, and which on, on many levels I'm sympathetic to, which is you gotta let people be... You gotta, you gotta, you gotta let go, and you got to... Like, like, there's too much fear and, and, and, and prevention, like they call in, uh, in, in football, preventive defense, where it's all about stopping the, the opponent's touchdown, and you always lose a game that way. It never happens that you win the game, right? You know that feeling when you're watching a sports game and, and your team is playing safe, and you're like, "We're gonna lose this game." We're gonna lose, right? And at the... Even, even if you don't lose, the fact that you're scared and that you feel like you're gonna lose is, in a way, the loss itself, right? The, the team that's going for it is galvanized. So I'm very sympathetic to the argument that, like, p- playing preventive defense is a losing strategy on every level. But at the same time, what happens when you have, uh... Like, there is a reason there's a system. When a... There, there, there has to be norms. Doesn't there have to be norms? Like, i- if everyone would look like you did in the yeshiva, what would happen?

28:14 Speaker 1 It'd probably be look like some of the different mesivtas that I have visited. There's different types of mesivtas.

28:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:20 Speaker 1 There are some mesivtas where everybody looks the way I looked, and that's the way the norm is in that mesivta.

28:26 Speaker 2 But isn't that too far to the other side?

28:28 Speaker 1 It might, it might be, but that's where those bachurim are right now, and they're, it, they're in an environment where they could grow from there, and they're not gonna be harassed for being who they are, and they're gonna grow and, im yirtzeh Hashem, and, and move into a higher level.

28:42 Speaker 2 But you were talking about the other mesivtas. You were talking about the more straight mesivtas.

28:44 Speaker 1 I'm talking about it n- what I'm saying now, nowadays there are so many mesivtas to accommodate-

28:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

28:49 Speaker 1 ... people on different levels.

28:51 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

28:52 Speaker 1 Um, yeah, you're right. Somebody who's in a more, um-

28:56 Speaker 2 Straight

28:56 Speaker 1 ... str- strict, stricter environment is not gonna... They, they'll be asked to go move on. There's other programs for you. You don't have to be here.

29:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. I so- I thought you were saying that in the more mainstream yeshivas, you don't understand why they're being so tight.

29:11 Speaker 1 No, I didn't say that.

29:12 Speaker 2 Okay. Sorry. I misunderstood.

29:13 Speaker 1 I, I tell every, uh, like in Chicago, the mesivta's like, you know, the, uh, the, they're very high caliber, and you have to up, be up to certain standards.

29:21 Speaker 2 I see. You were talk- you were talking about the quote, unquote, "alternative yeshivas" in the first place.

29:25 Speaker 1 Right.

29:26 Speaker 2 Hmm. Int- okay. Okay.

29:28 Speaker 1 Right.

29:29 Speaker 2 So you're pro, you're, you're pro, you're pro system. You're pro institution.

29:34 Speaker 1 I'm a Kabbalah Rozenek.

29:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

29:35 Speaker 1 So I'm pro doing things the right way.

29:37 Speaker 2 You're a Kabbalah Rozenek.

29:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it, and it's not, it's, I found that it's not contagious.

29:42 Speaker 2 It's not contagious.

29:43 Speaker 1 No. And I'm also a Jew lover. I found that's not contagious either.

29:49 Speaker 2 What do you mean it's not contagious? That people you know don't underst- don't, don't feel the same way?

29:52 Speaker 1 There's people that I could sit across the table from someone who, whose ideas might be totally this and that or may be doing things which I totally... But I could still sit across the table and love them.

30:03 Speaker 2 You know, you know, um, yeah, the, it's very... The, the things that you have to work hard on are generally not contagious, right? Getting strong is not contagious. Discipline is not contagious. It's, it's, it's... It helps maybe to be in the proximity of somebody who, who's working hard, but if it doesn't... Contagious is like it doesn't work for you. It comes and basically it's, 'cause it's fighting you.

30:32 Speaker 1 Right. The w-

30:32 Speaker 2 So it can't, it can't rely on you.

30:34 Speaker 1 I, I'm sort of saying it because I don't know how much I've worked on this. This is just like the way I'm wired.

30:41 Speaker 2 Eh. Well, it-

30:42 Speaker 1 I, it doesn't mean I haven't worked on myself, 'cause I have. There's certain things, though, that, like, I just, I just get up early in the morning.

30:50 Speaker 2 Okay.

30:51 Speaker 1 Like, you know, like that's it. But not everybody does that

30:55 Speaker 2 But that's not what you referred to as not being contagious. You referred to kabbalah so... It seems you're a natur- naturally a kabbalist on the-

31:00 Speaker 1 By n- by natural, I, I, I follow orders, I follow rules. When I come to the moshav in Chicago, and Rabbi Halberstam says be gone by 11, I'm gone by 11.

31:08 Speaker 2 He tells you to be gone by 11?

31:10 Speaker 1 He can't watch learn Torah to learn to chassidis the next morning. He gives me a time limit.

31:14 Speaker 2 Oh, oh, oh, for brains at night. Oh, uh-

31:16 Speaker 1 If, if I come in as a guest to farbrengen, he'll give me a time limit. I follow it, and the moment I say, "Come on, you got it wrong." He said, "No." Rabbi Halberstam said no, that's it.

31:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:25 Speaker 1 Can't do it.

31:27 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Boniolum, Torah Mesora, and Athalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast.

32:20 Speaker 1 So there's h- n- now another step, Meila Tzvi, he, he got me more than once. My chassidis chaverus in the morning was Simon Jacobson.

32:30 Speaker 2 No kidding.

32:31 Speaker 1 No kidding. We were learning Tofshin Gimel, and we'd learn five minutes, 10 minutes.

32:37 Speaker 2 Rashash on Tofshin Gimel.

32:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

32:39 Speaker 2 That's an amuchat.

32:40 Speaker 1 So-

32:41 Speaker 2 That's the first time Chabad learned, by the way. Yeah.

32:44 Speaker 1 So we're sitting and learning, so what happens? Simon Jacobson gets up, "I have to speak to Rabbi Meila." I'm not sure. I don't understand something. He'd go away for like 20, 30, 40 minutes. And so I don't know if he was Meila's chaverus or my chaverus, but-

33:00 Speaker 2 Why didn't he go along?

33:03 Speaker 1 I didn't have the same questions.

33:05 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

33:05 Speaker 1 But one day, we're learning, Meila Tzvi calls me over to his table, and you have to understand, when I came into Maristown, um, everybody on Shabbos Varcham would go into Crown Heights. I wasn't going to Crown Heights.

33:21 Speaker 2 'Cause you're-

33:22 Speaker 1 I was in Ocean Parkway four years. I'm already in Maristown. I'm still not going back. I hadn't gone... I'm not going back to farbrengens yet since Tofshin Chaf Ches. It all... I wasn't back by a farbrengen.

33:34 Speaker 2 You're just, you're just a kid from Brighton.

33:35 Speaker 1 I would ta- I would get off the bus, get the train, take my laundry, take it to my mother in Brighton Beach, and then Motzei Shabbos when the bus came back, meet them at the same train station, get back, go to Maristown.

33:44 Speaker 2 Huh. How about that?

33:46 Speaker 1 So, um, Meila called me over, and there's two Hayyim Yeyms. I don't know which one it was, and it's... I don't know which day it was, but he-- it was like maybe there was a farbrengen the night before. Maybe just he j- he o- obviously knew the right moment 'cause what he said hit like a bullseye. And he showed me the Hayyim Yeym where, uh, is learning this Yorah, saying Shabbos, uh, tell him, uh, every Shabbos Varcham, send the gate to you, your kinder, the kinskinder, and it, like, went straight through. And ever since then, I started going to Shabbos Varcham, to the farbrengens, and saying tell him then every, every Shabbos Varcham.

34:22 Speaker 2 What does one have to do with farbrengens? What does the-

34:24 Speaker 1 Because I w- the reason yeshiva was going into, it, it was farbrengen, but Shabbos Varcham. So it's ha- He, he-- the point is he wanted me to go on Shabbos Varcham to the farbrengen. If I go to Brighton Beach, I'm not gonna be saying tell him.

34:37 Speaker 2 I see.

34:37 Speaker 1 I'm gonna be doing my laundry. He knew if I'll go to 770, I'll say tell him, and, uh, he, he wanted to make sure I was a tell him zaga.

34:44 Speaker 2 I see that.

34:44 Speaker 1 He probably knew what they said. Be a tell him zaga. He saw something sitting with Simon Jacobson. He's not a tell him zaga yet. I have to make sure he becomes a tell him zaga.

34:55 Speaker 2 Wow.

34:55 Speaker 1 So the, you know, certain people are very instrumental in life. Uh-

35:00 Speaker 2 But, but explain to me, explain to me how you're in a Lubavitch yeshiva for so long, and it doesn't occur to you that maybe I wanna go find out who this rebbe is. It's not like, it's not all they're talking about the week after in yeshiva. It's not like all the rage that you're like, "Oh, I have to go." It's not part of... I mean, are you a complete loner living in a cave in the yeshiva that you don't talk to anybody?

35:21 Speaker 1 Oh, no, it's very friendly.

35:23 Speaker 2 Exactly. So they're, they're, they're, they're, they're not enraptured by the farbrengen.

35:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, so I was... They are. I mean, I'm in the middle of yeshiva. So what's wrong? Motzei Shabbos I can't go, I can't go for Shabbos home? What's the big deal? Once a month you go home.

35:35 Speaker 2 Okay, but if, if people are talking about this is a life-changing experience, or this... Okay, maybe they weren't s- I doubt they were speaking that language, but if, if they were sp- if they're speaking about, like, this was this amazing thing that, like, that, you know, this happened and that happened, that everyone's koching in it, I would imagine that you could give up your Shabbos off and laundry one time.

35:57 Speaker 1 Okay, so guess what happened? W- exactly what you said did take place, but that was gradual. Yeah, eventually. I think I'm full-blown now.

36:09 Speaker 2 Are you?

36:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:11 Speaker 2 It's terminal.

36:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like-

36:14 Speaker 2 Incurable

36:15 Speaker 1 ... the, the no, the, the point of no return.

36:17 Speaker 2 Incurable.

36:18 Speaker 1 Right. So Baruch Hashem. But, but it was gradual. It was all gradual. It was different mashbim and different chaverim and people taking an interest, and little by little. It didn't happen overnight. People who just sort of like, y- sometimes they, uh, there were certain guys in yeshiva who went totally in, totally in, and I don't know, a few years later, they were totally out.

36:41 Speaker 2 You know, it, it-

36:42 Speaker 1 Sometimes that happens.

36:44 Speaker 2 Look, o- on many, on, on, on, on, o- on, on, on, on many levels, this makes a lot of sense to me. I, I don't, I don't remember the details, but the-- I once saw the Fidikar of Sichas about the Bashemte's patience And he brings an example, I think it was from a ch- a chasid named Rav Baruch Chai, I don't remember. But a chasid that the Baal Shem Tov basically was investing in over the years. But whoever he sent to him, you know, he used to send people to Ben Mekar, "Patience, patience. With time he'll come around."

37:14 Speaker 1 Right.

37:15 Speaker 2 And, and, and the fizika was emphasizing the patience of the, of the, of the Baal Shem Tov. And look, if you're playing the long game, it for sure makes sense what you're saying. It ta- you know, you have, you have somebody who's, who's easing his way in. Yeah, there are people who are gung-ho, but like you said, in many ways, like Pirkei Avot says, right? Like, like, yatza, yatza srad b'seide. It's easy in, easy out, right? It's, it's not, it's not har- it's not hard-earned cash, so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's spent easily. And if someone earns it on their own and you're patient with them, with time they... It, it's like I, I, I, I make videos, and I always tell people, "You want at the end of the video that people should feel that it was their idea to give a donation to your organization." Right? If you tell them after the video, "By the way, give us money," you failed on two accounts. One is whatever you told them up to this point didn't already get them to think that. And B, now you're telling them, so even if they had a thought, now you're "Get lost. Stop telling me what to do." Y- the whole point is that you want to align... You're not trying to manipulate them, hopefully not, but you're trying to get them to see the-- you're trying to align them or, or give them a reason to see the world the way you see it. "I think

38:31 Speaker 2 that this is the most important thing, which is why I'm dedicating my life to this cause, and giving up all kinds of things presumably to do this. Here's why, and maybe you'll also wanna be part of it." Right? And so that takes time. That takes, that takes investment, it takes patience. But for whatever reason, we've lost in many ways that patience. And so that's why I do disagree with you a little bit this idea of, like, there are these yeshivas that are, like, for the straight and narrow, and then the yeshivas that are for, like, the guys who are gone, because that goes back to a very short-term impatient framework on both sides. The kid who's in has to be in immediately and will presumably be in forever, even though the way we started was with your sister who was in and then out or whatev- i- as if l'chalah we know what these things mean, as if we know who's really in, who's really out. Like, this is the Eishes Chayil's way-

39:27 Speaker 1 Right

39:27 Speaker 2 ... it's not ours, right? But let's even say on a, on a simple level, on a, on a, on a g- on a, on a very grubby level. But people-- it's short-term to assume that because a kid right now is frum and, uh, so he's in. Maybe he won't be in in five years. And it's also short-term to assume that the kid who's out is gonna stay out like this and... Like, if you would've been back in the day, you would've gone into-- If, if you had, if you, if what you did back in the day was happening today, they would ship you off to an alternative yeshiva. You wanna have long hair, you have to go to a yeshiva that allows long hair. You wanna have a colorful shirt or a colorful jacket, you have to go somewhere where they allow that. The regular yeshiva is not gonna allow it. So it's a short-term framework, is what I'm saying. I, I don't know. So that's... I disagree a little bit.

40:15 Speaker 1 It's fine.

40:16 Speaker 2 No, no, it is fine.

40:17 Speaker 1 Back, back in the chafs and the lameds, Gan Yisroel and the yeshiva and, and, and Ocean Parkway, it wasn't just all Lubavitcher kids.

40:26 Speaker 2 Yes.

40:26 Speaker 1 It was all types of kids.

40:28 Speaker 2 Yes.

40:28 Speaker 1 And I, I was in, I was in the same bunk in Gan Yisroel with Lubavitcher kids and not Lubavitcher kids, and so was, you know... It, it's not that way anymore. If you go to Parksville or Montreal, this and that, it's just, you know, all, all Lubavitcher kids. You know, you don't really have, uh-

40:44 Speaker 2 Yeah

40:44 Speaker 1 ... so it, it, it's different. So the fact that in Ocean Parkway or Maristana, I was there, that's just the way things were then.

40:51 Speaker 2 Right. So I'm not lamenting old times-

40:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:53 Speaker 2 ... I wish we could go back. A lot of it has to do with the s- s- with the fact that communities grew, and, and each k- a lot of those kids who went to Bedford and Dean would now have their own communities to go to or... But what, what I, what, what I am lamenting is the, the short-term framework, the short-term way of thinking-

41:12 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

41:12 Speaker 2 ... where we take a child as-- who's at a snapshot in time. Every human being's always developing, but a child is developing at a pace that's unimaginable to an adult. Like, even though we've went through it, and even though hopefully we're parents and we are very close to our children and seeing it, we still don't, we still can't get it, right? 'Cause I think if we really could get it, we would do it ourselves. It kind of, you know, we, we s- we th- And so a child is, is truly a snapshot in time. It's like they, they say like you, you know, like the old Chinese proverb that you put your finger in the river, it's never the same river, because the river's always changing. The child's always changing. And yet we decide based on that brief snapshot in time the category that this child's gonna belong to until eternity.

42:03 Speaker 1 Right. Label people.

42:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. This kid's, this kid's a noisivor, or this kid's chilled, this kid's modern Chabad. And it's like, what do you know? How do you, how do you know that? This kid belongs in a, in a, in a school that's going to at best hold him up, but it's going to reaffirm day in, day out that he's outside of the mainstream.

42:25 Speaker 1 Right.

42:26 Speaker 2 And it turns out the mainstream is essentially a farmed fish salmon, where they're all like... You know what farmed fish salmon is.

42:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:34 Speaker 2 They're all like, they're all like being bred in this toxic water stew, 'cause it's not a river anymore 'cause nothing's changing, and they're just being factory farmed. This is what happens when I don't sleep at night.

42:49 Speaker 1 Right. But in, in any case, I think I was not a problem 'cause, A, I was well-behaved and respectful and not a troublemaker So, um, and, and, and I was constantly advancing from sixth grade to seventh grade to eighth grade to Ocean Parkway to Morristown. I was always moving in the right direction. Slowly.

43:12 Speaker 2 But they still wouldn't accept it today. It's, it's still fair-

43:14 Speaker 1 You're saying you don't think it would be accepted?

43:16 Speaker 2 Do you think-

43:16 Speaker 1 Okay, well, I'm glad I grew up when I grew up.

43:18 Speaker 2 Do you think it would be accepted?

43:20 Speaker 1 I, I would, I don't wanna speculate.

43:22 Speaker 2 Okay, fair enough.

43:23 Speaker 1 I, I have a different view on the world. I have a lot of patience for all the Bachram today and for all the younger light, and, uh, I just... view of life, people are just people, and they are where they are, and give everybody a... I mean, I visit people in prison who've done who knows what. Nobody else wants to see them, and I don't go in and speak to them about Hasidis and rebbe, and this, and I ju- we put on film and tell some jokes. A lot of people, they say, "Changed my life." And, and some of them actually stop putting dabening and putting on tzitzit, and doing things that come out and, and do good things. But it's not just treating them like they are.

43:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

43:59 Speaker 1 Or like I say the same thing with the video with asking for money. I, I get, um, m- more donations from Baal Habot than I learn with. I never ask for anything. They just give. I don't ask.

44:10 Speaker 2 Right.

44:11 Speaker 1 They're... I'm, I'm becoming their friend. I want them to, like you say, think the way I think and understand the things, and then say, "Hey, we support this. We wanna help this."

44:19 Speaker 2 They believe in your cause.

44:20 Speaker 1 Right. Not because I'm telling them about it, 'cause I'm, you know-

44:24 Speaker 2 Right

44:24 Speaker 1 ... getting them and-

44:25 Speaker 2 Right.

44:25 Speaker 1 So the same thing is w- when you talk about the salmon, you know, the, the farm fish salmon.

44:32 Speaker 2 So go on.

44:32 Speaker 1 Um, I, I think it's very interesting that it, it's not just in Chicago, but in a lot of mesivtas that I go, and I sit with the boys for one night, and I buy a fabrangan. It's like they're like, "Oh, there's a breath of fresh air." It's like m- maybe 'cause it's that just, "What are we doing here?" It's like so stagnant. A little bit stagnant, so-

44:53 Speaker 2 You gotta throw a crocodile in every once in a while into the, into the, into the-

44:57 Speaker 1 Right. So- And I always apologize to Don Hollow that, "I hope I didn't mess up all the work you were trying to do."

45:04 Speaker 2 So how-

45:05 Speaker 1 Stirred it up a little.

45:06 Speaker 2 So, yeah. So, so let's-

45:06 Speaker 1 But it's always in a good way, obviously.

45:08 Speaker 2 Where did, where... The legend of Rabbi Shaiman's fabrangans, where did that begin? When did you, like, fall in love with this, with this craziness called fabrangan?

45:18 Speaker 1 So I always would say in my life, um, I, I think that's where maybe the days of Yiddishkite, the Beryl Shamtov comes in. Um, it all started out this really getting into it is... It's a funny story. I, I made a pledge to my friends. My group of boy, uh, guys are, uh, Chaim Sigrona, Benji Stock, Ori Posner, Eric Roskam from the fruit store.

45:44 Speaker 2 Your classmates.

45:44 Speaker 1 They s- We were entire semers together. Shea Hach from New Haven, Da-

45:48 Speaker 2 Okay

45:48 Speaker 1 ... Hilodovi Krinsky.

45:50 Speaker 2 So this is after you're already in yeshiva?

45:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:54 Speaker 2 Still with the curly hair?

45:55 Speaker 1 No, no, no, this was, uh, on Shlichas-

45:57 Speaker 2 On Shlichas

45:57 Speaker 1 ... in Taf Shin Lamed Zion in Tiras Semas.

45:59 Speaker 2 So now you're a full-blown Labavisher.

46:00 Speaker 1 Right. Full, full-blown. I even had a Shemtov in the group, Yossi Shemtov from Tucson.

46:04 Speaker 2 Oh, sure, sure.

46:06 Speaker 1 So, um, uh, uh, actually, we came to Tiras Semas. We came to the semester, we studied Torah the first Shabbos. So coming up, please introduce everybody, introduce yourself. So the first guy, "Oh, oh, Posner." The next guy, "Oh, Shemtov, Grona." And me and Yanka Yankalovich are standing in the back saying-

46:25 Speaker 2 Y- Yanka who?

46:27 Speaker 1 Yank-

46:27 Speaker 2 That's a point.

46:28 Speaker 1 Yanka Yankalovich.

46:30 Speaker 2 It's a real name?

46:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And Yomen Shaiman and Yanka Yankalovich are standing in the back. We looked at each other and said, "When they get to Yankalovich and Shaiman, let us know." Like, you know, everybody there is a Krinsky and a, and a Grona, and... So, so in any case, we made a pledge together. We're gonna stay Bachram till ta- nobody's gonna bite the dust till Taf Shin Mem.

46:54 Speaker 2 Which, which year was this?

46:55 Speaker 1 It's Lamed, Lamed Zion.

46:57 Speaker 2 So-

46:57 Speaker 1 Till Lamed Zion, we're gonna make it till Taf Shin Mem as Bachram.

47:00 Speaker 2 So you're 20 years old, then we're-

47:01 Speaker 1 12. Yeah, yeah, tw- yeah, we're 20, uh, 20, 21 by the Shlichas year.

47:05 Speaker 2 You're making a pact that nobody's-

47:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

47:06 Speaker 2 ... getting married before 23, 24.

47:09 Speaker 1 Right.

47:09 Speaker 2 Till Taf Shin Mem.

47:11 Speaker 1 Till Taf Shin Mem.

47:12 Speaker 2 Why? What's, uh, explain.

47:13 Speaker 1 It was just make it through the Lameds. Make it through the Lameds.

47:17 Speaker 2 What's special about the Lameds?

47:18 Speaker 1 Nothing. It was just a goal. It was just a goal. We're gonna stay-

47:21 Speaker 2 No, what, what's wrong with getting married?

47:22 Speaker 1 It would nothing... Be- That, that comes from different brains. You don't wanna become, uh, Baal Habot and :"Hey, Berch Das Teyre, Bachram Ar Heilik." I mean, come on, who wants to become a, a, a Baal Habot, a Baal Habos?

47:35 Speaker 2 I did, but it's...

47:37 Speaker 1 No, fine. So, um, it was Elul, um, Taf Shin Lamed Tes, Yemei Shlichas.

47:46 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:47 Speaker 1 Yemei Shlichas. I mean, that's pretty clush, close to Taf Shin Mem. And, um, whatever the re- the way I'm wired, I knew that sometime during the year, I'm gonna, I'm gonna... There were already shadchanim coming after me and bothering me, and I knew. And, and, and the way a Kabbalah Salmik works, if I'm getting into the year, I was the librarian in 770 then. That's when the librarian still changed. Uh, Shofar sh- it wasn't there forever.

48:13 Speaker 2 All right.

48:13 Speaker 1 So every two, three years, a new librarian, a-

48:16 Speaker 2 It, it was a desired job? Is it-

48:18 Speaker 1 Well, no, no, but I, but, uh, I, I like doing service.

48:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

48:23 Speaker 1 I was the vaccer in the morning-

48:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

48:24 Speaker 1 ... in yeshiva. I, I would-

48:27 Speaker 2 That's how you fit in.

48:28 Speaker 1 Huh?

48:28 Speaker 2 That's how, that's how you fit in. That's where you found your place.

48:30 Speaker 1 Right. And, and see, I'm a short person, so also to get to tekiyas, to get a place by the fabrangan, short people have to come early and have to get there on time. You can't just come later and bust your way in. So, and j- again, I had a front row for everything, 'cause why? I would be there early, putting out the mazanas, putting out the cake. I was off the vaccer, the librarian, get a few keys to some rooms and, you know-

48:56 Speaker 2 Huh

48:56 Speaker 1 ... make it a, make it around. So, um, I, I knew that sometime during the year, uh, I didn't wa- I, so I didn't wanna go too deep into the year, so I agreed, okay. I didn't know how quick it would go. I didn't know that seeing somebody for three times and all on Yemei Shlichas, we would write to the rebbe, and that would be it.

49:17 Speaker 2 I see.

49:18 Speaker 1 So I fell, I fell before Taf Shin Mem.

49:21 Speaker 2 So you lost the bet.

49:23 Speaker 1 I lo- I was the first one.

49:24 Speaker 2 Oh, my goodness.

49:25 Speaker 1 I was the first one.

49:26 Speaker 2 How dare you?

49:26 Speaker 1 So I went to-

49:27 Speaker 2 How dare you?

49:28 Speaker 1 I went to another key figure in life of every Jew, Meir Harrling.

49:32 Speaker 2 Right.

49:33 Speaker 1 All the boys in 770, you go to Meir Harrling, you go to the closet, you get a cup of wine, you, you speak with him, and said, "Meir, what am I supposed to do?" I, I... He said, "Shaiman, you have to make a tikkun. It's only one thing to me massacring this. This Tishrei, you may not leave 770 at night. You have to sit by every fabrangan. You have to stay there the whole, every fabrangan. That's the only way you could fix up what you did." So I'm a Kabbalah Salmik, I listen to him. And that year, at the same time-

50:04 Speaker 2 Wait, wait, you listen to anybody about anything?

50:06 Speaker 1 No, no, people I, people that I wanna take advice from.

50:09 Speaker 2 So Meir Harrling, you took him seriously?

50:11 Speaker 1 Of course.

50:11 Speaker 2 Okay.

50:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, um, that year also happened to be, I guess at, at previous years, um, Baruch Shumpov would say he's outspoken, and he says a lot of things that people don't like, and I for-- I, I think people may said-- told Detroit, "Please keep, keep him away." But I guess a few people in Detroit said, "Listen, we spoke to him. He's gonna be good this year," or so on. That year, Tuv Shemem, is when he made his return to seven seven to his-- And he was gonna be good. He was gonna behave. And he happened to be for bringing every night circus, yeah. And then for some reason, I was by these for bringings, and he-- the topic he was talking about night after night after night was why Bachram should not go to the Kalo.

51:06 Speaker 2 Should go straight on Schlichas.

51:07 Speaker 1 He said, and he called them... I checked this, like, last year in a store, the products that still exist, the Roche Motel.

51:14 Speaker 2 He called the Kalo the Roche Motel?

51:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. They check in, and they don't check out. This one goes with his Reichashler. That one goes there. They don't go on Schlichas.

51:23 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay. Wait, so one second, one second. I just spoke to Yosef Levin in, in, in Palo Alto about this.

51:29 Speaker 1 Right.

51:29 Speaker 2 And you have to give context for your listening. People don't un- people don't realize, at least I didn't realize, the extent to which people were not going out on Schlichas, even in the Tuv Shemem.

51:43 Speaker 1 Right.

51:43 Speaker 2 People don't realize that. It was, it was still considered not only unusual, but almost strange, and something's wrong with you that you're going on Schlichas. Like, right?

51:53 Speaker 1 Right.

51:54 Speaker 2 That-- Is that a correct statement?

51:56 Speaker 1 I, I... Well, at least he was stirring about that. That's what he was-

51:59 Speaker 2 But you were there

51:59 Speaker 1 ... he was very upset about.

52:00 Speaker 2 But you were there.

52:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:01 Speaker 2 Was that a correct assessment of what was going-

52:03 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't know.

52:04 Speaker 2 You don't remember? You're not, you're not judging one way or another.

52:07 Speaker 1 No.

52:08 Speaker 2 Was Schlichas a common thing for people to do in those days?

52:12 Speaker 1 I don't know.

52:12 Speaker 2 You don't remember, okay. Okay. But I'm saying at least there's a context there that I, I, I think people-

52:19 Speaker 1 That that period of time, there was-- it wasn't so popular.

52:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. So it wasn't like he was just being bombastic. Maybe he was being bombastic, but he wasn't coming out of nowhere.

52:27 Speaker 1 No, he wasn't coming out of nowhere. No.

52:28 Speaker 2 And Schlichim were looking for a light to come assist them or come take over cities, and there was nobody to be found.

52:33 Speaker 1 Correct. So, so imagine night after night after night when a Kabbalah Solnik hears those words.

52:39 Speaker 2 Right.

52:39 Speaker 1 What do you think I did? I went... There was no Schlichim office yet. I went to Moshe Kalarski, "Wanna go on Schlichas." That I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go to the Roche Motel.

52:49 Speaker 2 Did, did you speak to your w- your kala or, like, did you speak to your fiancé about it, about this decision, what you're gonna do right after you-

52:57 Speaker 1 Well, we wrote in the Rebbe. I-- Yeah, yeah. I mean-

52:59 Speaker 2 No, about Schlichas. Did you speak to her about this?

53:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. When we, when we met our three and a half times, I think I mentioned it.

53:06 Speaker 2 Did you go to... No, but then you-- that-- but that was before the Farbrengens with-

53:09 Speaker 1 No, it was when we were, when we, when we were seeing each other-

53:14 Speaker 2 Once you were engaged

53:15 Speaker 1 ... and we were meeting. We didn't see each other once we were engaged that much. But when w- the, the times we spoke-

53:21 Speaker 2 You were going on Schlichas

53:22 Speaker 1 ... that was-- we both decided we wanna go on Schlichas, yeah.

53:25 Speaker 2 But, but did you inform her about your decision to skip Kalo?

53:28 Speaker 1 This was before. This was... She-- No, she didn't, she didn't care.

53:32 Speaker 2 She didn't care, okay.

53:33 Speaker 1 She didn't care. She was ready to move.

53:35 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

53:35 Speaker 1 She was ready to go. And, um, so, um, right away, I think even before I went, um, went to the chuppah, I already had, uh, I've either spoken to people, and, um, I knew where I was going. The Rebbe gave an answer. And it was interesting. Then I went to Shloime Zarhi, another beautiful Jew, and I asked him, you know, I told him what I wanna do. He says, "Shimeon, you cannot do what you wanna do."

54:04 Speaker 2 You want to go straight on Schlichas.

54:05 Speaker 1 Can't.

54:06 Speaker 2 You have to go to Kalo.

54:07 Speaker 1 He didn't say that. He said, he said like this: "Shana HameForah. You never-- You were never married. I'm telling you, Shana HameForah is like a chatzi get. It's a very hard year." He said, "Going on a Schlichas first year, it, it's like a chatzi get. Could you do math?"

54:27 Speaker 2 A chatzi, chatzi.

54:27 Speaker 1 You're not gonna make it. So I stayed all the way until Rosh Chodesh Adar. I got married Tes Vav Kislev, so I stayed the rest of Kislev. I stayed Teves and Shevat, and those two and a half months saved me. I stayed married the whole time.

54:46 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening ten years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Boniola, Torah Mesora, and Hatalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. W- It's fascinating. Not, not to throw Rabbi Zarhi under the bus, but-

55:44 Speaker 1 So Baruch Shumpov gets, gets credit for, um, getting me make sure I go on Schlichas, and I've Reml in f- first Moiset, Ganya Shral. I mean, till today, m- my life is camp-based. That was one of the reasons I went to Chicago, was to run the camp right away.

56:01 Speaker 2 To run the camp.

56:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:02 Speaker 2 Rabbi Moskowitz was looking for someone to run the camp.

56:04 Speaker 1 Camp and other stuff, but, uh-

56:05 Speaker 2 So-

56:05 Speaker 1 ... that was one of the main things

56:07 Speaker 2 ... so you were the second Shlich after Rabbi Moskowitz in Chicago?

56:11 Speaker 1 Well, obviously Rabbi Hecht before him.

56:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I mean, there were other Lubavitchers here as well.

56:17 Speaker 1 Right. Rabbi Schusterman, Rabbi Goodman.

56:21 Speaker 2 Right.

56:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:22 Speaker 2 What was Rabbi Hecht's first name?

56:24 Speaker 1 Shlomo Zalman.

56:25 Speaker 2 He was a brother of the, of, of the other Hechts?

56:28 Speaker 1 He was the oldest brother.

56:29 Speaker 2 Oldest brother. And he was here as a shliach?

56:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, he was b- sent I think by the Friediker Rebbe still.

56:34 Speaker 2 And he was here when you came?

56:35 Speaker 1 He passed away in of, of Lamed Heh.

56:39 Speaker 2 So before you came?

56:41 Speaker 1 Uh, less than a year-

56:43 Speaker 2 Before you came.

56:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:43 Speaker 2 But before you... So you didn't, you didn't interact with him?

56:45 Speaker 1 I never met him.

56:46 Speaker 2 Did he have any, he had any children living here?

56:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. He had a few children, yeah.

56:50 Speaker 2 They still live here?

56:52 Speaker 1 Not here.

56:53 Speaker 2 Not here.

56:53 Speaker 1 Not here.

56:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. It's interesting. It's interesting, it's, not to throw Rabbi Zarche under the bus, but the idea that shlichus was, you know, a chatzi get.

57:07 Speaker 1 The first-

57:07 Speaker 2 No, no talks like that, uh, then, then 10 years later or 20 years later, the kinus are talking about how shlichus enhances a marriage. I'm sure you remember that famous, the infamous line that... No? When I was a bachur it was, like, a big line. It was in some gem video, that shlichus enhances a marriage.

57:25 Speaker 1 Well, I, I just know what happened in my case.

57:27 Speaker 2 No, no, no, I-

57:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. But you're saying, I, yeah, my mashpia maybe he knew me.

57:32 Speaker 2 I... No, I think he's right. I think he's right, by the way. I think you're, you're putting a tremendous amount of pressure on a, on a fragile institution that's-

57:42 Speaker 1 Right

57:42 Speaker 2 ... that, that, that's fragile in the first place. Understandably, a marriage is a, is a miracle. A s- a successful marriage is, to begin with, a miracle. And, and, and you're putting a tremendous amount of external pressure on top of it, and yeah, it's very, it's very interesting how... Because sh- there, there wasn't, it took... Going back to the idea of patience, it took decades for the Rebbe to build the mosod of shlichus to a place where it became like a th- like a, a self-standing, self-perpetuating thing. Like, the first years, the Rebbe was fighting with the parents of the f- people who were idealistic enough to go, but the parents didn't want, right? And then they, you needed to be very zealous to go in the first years. If there was even a moment of hesitation, you weren't allowed to go because we need people who, you know, Nachshon ben Aminadav, those people that aren't gonna bat an eye. And, and even it was individuals, individuals, and, and there was talking about it, and talking about it, and talking about it, and it's still just a trickle of people going out. And then slowly but surely it takes off, but in the, but it, it took, it took decades and, and that's, that's Rebbe pushing it from the top. You know? So it just reinforces the idea of patience, the idea of a big idea is gonna take a very long time.

59:10 Speaker 1 Right. A- and, um, Baruch Hashem, it, uh-

59:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

59:16 Speaker 1 Right.

59:16 Speaker 2 Right. But-

59:18 Speaker 1 Didn't happen instantly.

59:19 Speaker 2 It didn't happen instantly. A- and, and, and so this... Look, I understand why people, I understand why people, um, are, are very concerned about a breakdown of standards, and, oh, you're, you know, you're being open-minded and g- you know, and you, when your, when your mind's too open, your brains fall out, all the kind of... And some of it's true, obviously. There, there's a truth to the idea of being, o- of safeguarding and, and, and the value in that. But I do feel that there's also, um, like a, an imp- just an impatience to it. There's like this, there's this, there's, there's no, like, openness to like, "Let's see what, let's see what happens," you know? Let, let's, let's wait and see. Let's wait and see, you know? The story is still unfolding.

1:00:04 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah. To give you an example, in Chicago, I can almost guarantee you the patience of Rabbi Daniel Moskowitz is legendary. I mean, I probably never would've made it in Detroit. Probably never would've made it-

1:00:22 Speaker 2 You, you would not have, statistically.

1:00:23 Speaker 1 I, I probably ne- w- not have made it in Wisconsin or different places. The patience of Rabbi Moskowitz, he did play the long game, and he... I was a k- a guy who knew nothing, and I made, I made blunders. I made really major problems.

1:00:42 Speaker 2 Care to enumerate?

1:00:44 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, one's... It's, it's humorous now, but it wasn't humorous then. One of the guys at that time, there was all these Russian people coming over, Soviets coming over, so the Federation in Chicago would, uh, subsidize, and we'd have all these kids in camp. And, um, I don't know, Rabbi Moskowitz is away. Everybody... I, I picked up the phone. Some guy calls up a- and I don't know what I said, but it was pretty nasty, and this guy, whose name was Joel Karp, he was, um... I don't know if... He might still be alive. I don't know if he is, but that time he was like a big macher in the Federation, and that like, oh boy, was, was w- w- was not a good phone call. Like, this is a big, important guy, and I got on and just was like, you know, obnoxious and, and, and-

1:01:31 Speaker 2 Why, why were you obnoxious?

1:01:32 Speaker 1 I, I don't know why. I said-

1:01:34 Speaker 2 He-

1:01:34 Speaker 1 ... "Who do you think you are?" I don't know what the conversation was. Just-

1:01:37 Speaker 2 Right, right. You-

1:01:37 Speaker 1 Like, it, it was fire, an unfireable offense.

1:01:40 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:01:41 Speaker 1 And, um, it, it, so Rabbi Moskowitz's patience with, um, a new shliach and just he, he, he's ne- he's never done this before. What does he know about it? And he had a lot of patience, and which with all the, shlichus, all the years he was here, he, anybody coming in, he did have m- my kids coming in on shlichus after. I mean, he just displayed a lot of patience for every shliach and allowed them to grow and, and, and, you know, shepherded them, and he, he, he didn't, he didn't expect somebody to right away just snap and be perfect

1:02:15 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:15 Speaker 1 He had a lot, he played that long game, that patience, and I think he got it directly from the Rebbe, 'cause I think that's the Rebbe's game.

1:02:22 Speaker 2 You think so?

1:02:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. He was very connected to the Rebbe.

1:02:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:25 Speaker 1 Rabbi Moskowitz wouldn't make a move without, uh... And, and I think that comes down, that patience and that-

1:02:32 Speaker 2 No, but you think the Rebbe played a patient game?

1:02:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, people, um, I always, uh, the, I'll tell you a story. One time, it was, I think it was winter camp, so wasn't s- a summer camp. So I told the counselors, "I only want, I don't care what you do with the kids in camp. I only want two things. You c- I want the kids to go away knowing that there's a Rebbe. That's one thing, and I want the kids to know that Mashiach's coming."

1:03:04 Speaker 2 Wait, wh- when was this camp?

1:03:05 Speaker 1 This was, uh, the, eh-

1:03:07 Speaker 2 Recently

1:03:07 Speaker 1 ... mems, nuns, or whatever, or, uh-

1:03:09 Speaker 2 And what kind of kids are these?

1:03:12 Speaker 1 Regular old, um, um, um, Jewish kids.

1:03:15 Speaker 2 Like public school kids?

1:03:16 Speaker 1 They could be public school.

1:03:17 Speaker 2 Private kids?

1:03:17 Speaker 1 There could be other non-Lubavitcher schools. Yeah. It was a winter camp. It was, uh, probably public school kids. Said, "Whatever you want to do, do with the kids. Make sure they know at the end when they leave there's a Rebbe."

1:03:30 Speaker 2 Why is it important that they know there's a Rebbe?

1:03:31 Speaker 1 That, why, to me?

1:03:33 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:03:35 Speaker 1 I thought that that's important, and that they should know that, uh, um... Well, I mean, the most important thing it is to me, and that's what I'd like to convey. That's what I convey to the counselors to convey to the kids. Why?

1:03:48 Speaker 2 Like what, what, what does one gain? What does one gain from knowing that there's a Rebbe? You knew that there was a Rebbe for many years, and you went to, uh, wash the laundry.

1:04:00 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:01 Speaker 2 So what does one gain from that knowledge?

1:04:06 Speaker 1 That's a good question. I don't know the answer.

1:04:11 Speaker 2 You don't know the answer?

1:04:12 Speaker 1 I don't know the answer.

1:04:14 Speaker 2 But you just feel it's important.

1:04:16 Speaker 1 Right. Right. It's, uh, I, I feel it's a, it's an intuition I have that that's, I want to convey that for the campers, to the campers. Actually, in the prisons, I never speak about the Rebbe, Mashiach, or anything.

1:04:29 Speaker 2 Really?

1:04:30 Speaker 1 I just show up and just talk.

1:04:32 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:04:33 Speaker 1 I hand out materials and things to read, but for the camp, I wanted the kids to... Why, why da'avka the kids? Because maybe it's because I'm a Gan Yisroel product, and maybe that's, to me, that was my gateway.

1:04:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:04:51 Speaker 1 And maybe psychologically, I figured that, "Hey, this is where I learned about the Rebbe is in camp." I learned about the Rebbe in camp.

1:04:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:00 Speaker 1 Well, did it make a difference immediately? No. But the fact that I knew about the Rebbe, and the Rebbe wants, you know, Mashiach to come right now, those were, uh, uh, very important to me. So these staff members say, "That's very interesting," 'cause we were by another camp either the summer or it was winter or summer. They said, "That particular camp, the Shliach told us, 'You could tell the kids anything you want except for two things.'" "You leave that for me and my wife. Do not speak to them about the Rebbe. Do not speak to them about Mashiach. Leave that to us." And the counselor said, "Can you explain? Can you explain?" They're saying like, "Who's right?" So this is what I told the counselors. I said, "The r- this is part of the Rebbe's genius. The Rebbe dispatched different shluchim to different places with different personalities, with different things. The Rebbe knows who to send where. And for that particular location where you were, that Shliach told you the right thing. He knows his community, he knows his people, and he knows what he's talking about. This is my community. These are my people. This is what I see. That's why I'm not in that spot, and he's not where I am."

1:06:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:14 Speaker 1 Imagine if all the shluchim, imagine if Rabbi Hertz was in Des Plaines and I was doing it. Come on, it never would happen. He's who he is. I'm who I am. Each, it's, it's genius.

1:06:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:25 Speaker 1 It's genius. So this long game of the Rebbe is like where each person ended up.

1:06:30 Speaker 2 I see. I see. I see. Why don't you talk to people in prison about it? You don't feel that they can gain from-

1:06:37 Speaker 1 I, I, I just think they're so broken, and they're so, they're, they're so, um, distraught, and, and, and they don't even... Uh, a lot of the people, number one, are not Jewish. But let's say we're talk- the ones that are Jewish are so, um, it comes from intermarriages, or they're adopted, or they're, they themselves were traumatized as kids and they're just hurt people hurting people, and it's like I just have to, have to just heal them or be with them or just sit there with them and just touch them as a human, as a fellow human before getting in. It's like it'll come. Again, the, it's, it's that same patience game. I, I, or I'm, at that point, I know that person, he's not ready for it. He's not, it's not, it's not the time.

1:07:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:34 Speaker 1 I'm not hiding the Rebbe. I give them material. It has, that it says, you know-

1:07:38 Speaker 2 You're not embarrassed of it. It's just that there's a time-

1:07:40 Speaker 1 It's just that's not, I'm not... It, it, there's a different mission, the people I'm seeing in prison.

1:07:45 Speaker 2 Interesting. Yeah, you're not, you're not going to, you're not going there to form their minds about or form, sh- try to shape their lives in terms of-

1:07:52 Speaker 1 I'm just trying to get them to, like-

1:07:54 Speaker 2 Tell them the way it matters

1:07:55 Speaker 1 ... come to terms with, "Will Hashem ever forgive me for the atrocity I just committed?"

1:08:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:08:00 Speaker 1 "Can I ever show my face in public again?"

1:08:02 Speaker 2 When did you start going to prison? Was it, it was together with Aleph or independent?

1:08:06 Speaker 1 It was, it was, um, very interestingly, I just told you I, um, went on Rosh Chodesh Adar. It's interesting to note that Lamed Shvat Taf Shin Mem, there was a Unusual farbrengen. It was after Mincha. Uh, I, I, I think it was, that year was Shleshim Shana, and probably a lot, a lot of people came for Yut Shvat, and probably a lot of the people who came from overseas didn't just leave right away. They might have stayed the rest of Shvat. So, uh, there were a lot of people leaving. The Rebbe, there was a group of Bochurim going on Shlichus to Australia the next day that had, uh, a y- a mini Yechidas before Mincha, and after Mincha, uh, then, uh, Leibel Groner said the Rebbe's coming down after Mincha. There's gonna be a farbrengen. There were two Seudas. It was very short. It's, it's a se- uh, this farbrengen I think I reviewed in my head, like, for a whole year straight, listened to it every single day. And, um, but at the end of this farbrengen, and everything in that farbrengen almost has materialized in my Shlichus.

1:09:20 Speaker 2 Really?

1:09:20 Speaker 1 The things the Rebbe spoke about then. Yes. One of them, he told the story about the Mitler Rebbe, the Chassidim, they went after Chassid- Chassidus. And one Chassid must have been like the YY Jacobson of his time, or the Shais Taub, or Manis Friedman. He, like, he did great wherever he went, and he really felt good about it, and he came to the Mitler Rebbe. You know, the Yeshis, the-

1:09:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:45 Speaker 1 ... that tzibbur is also there in the Rebbe. Chassidus also davening. It's also the Chazzan. So I think that in, in the, in the last 10 years of me having to go around to speak here, there, there, it's part of the Shlichus. That tzibbur is also from the verein, but, uh, gotta get the word out, whatever. And, and the Rebbe spoke about prisons, uh, during that farbrengen.

1:10:06 Speaker 2 Was this connected to Shalom Ber Lipskar? Do you know?

1:10:09 Speaker 1 Not connected to Shalom Ber Lipskar. No.

1:10:11 Speaker 2 I think that was later. I think that was a couple years later.

1:10:14 Speaker 1 Shalom Ber, the, Shalom Ber, the Aleph-Yud at the start of Mem-Aleph or, or-

1:10:17 Speaker 2 Mem-Beis, yeah

1:10:17 Speaker 1 ... so this was before. The Rebbe was talking, and there were letters to prisoners in, in the Lameds, in the, the, the printed letters now.

1:10:25 Speaker 2 Right

1:10:26 Speaker 1 Um-

1:10:26 Speaker 2 Oh, it could be that's what inspired Shalom Ber Lipskar

1:10:28 Speaker 1 Yes, for sure.

1:10:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:29 Speaker 1 Sure. So, um, and at that farbrengen the Rebbe gave out dollars and Mashka. There's two different pictures of me going by the Rebbe, 'cause I think I went by, and, um, well, I'm also a little bashful, and, uh, I got a dollar, but I didn't say I'm going to Chicago, which I think I asked Rabbi, I told Rabbi Moskowitz. He said, "Go back on line. You better get a... Don't come here without a bottle of Mashka. The Rebbe's giving out Mashka. Go." So I went back on line a second time, and I got a bottle of Mashka too to bring to Chicago.

1:10:59 Speaker 2 Rabbi Moskowitz was there?

1:11:00 Speaker 1 No, but I was c- he was gonna pick me up from the airport the next morning.

1:11:04 Speaker 2 So you called him up?

1:11:05 Speaker 1 I called him up. "Hey, I got a dollar from the Rebbe." "But did you get the Mashka?" "No." "Go back on line." So there's two different pictures of me-

1:11:13 Speaker 2 That's funny

1:11:13 Speaker 1 ... passing by the Rebbe at that farbrengen.

1:11:15 Speaker 2 So that's-

1:11:15 Speaker 1 One you see the Rebbe giving me a dollar, one you see the Rebbe giving me a Mashka

1:11:19 Speaker 2 So that, so that's what, that's what, that's, that's, um, that's when you started going to visit people in prisons.

1:11:25 Speaker 1 N- no. So that was the last day I was... I left the next day.

1:11:29 Speaker 2 Right. Right

1:11:29 Speaker 1 And then-

1:11:30 Speaker 2 But that's Shlichus what started

1:11:31 Speaker 1 ... and, uh, right, and then... No.

1:11:33 Speaker 2 No

1:11:33 Speaker 1 That, the Rebbe spoke about it, but then I asked Rabbi Moskowitz who came in, "Listen, it's gonna be hard enough for me to just pay your salary." I was officially tzav in Chicago.

1:11:43 Speaker 2 So you couldn't do your tzav

1:11:44 Speaker 1 Lefonia, you can.

1:11:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:45 Speaker 1 But what should I do? He says, "Do things, but, like, besides your salary, try to do things that don't, don't cost a lot of money. Uh, we can't afford it right now." Not, uh, at that point yet. And, uh-

1:11:57 Speaker 2 So no big activities.

1:11:59 Speaker 1 So, so a man called up from Crown Heights. It was before. It was, it was, I was on Shlichus a month, and called up from Crown Heights. I have a friend that I do business with. His son and his son's friend, um, mysteriously buildings on, uh, different areas of Chicago were, were burning down that they owned, and the insurance companies, for whatever reason, didn't think they were accidents. So so these two fellows are in, in prison. "Make sure they get matzah and grape juice." That's what was the call came in. So I'd never been in a prison before, and there was no such thing as Aleph, uh, Shlichas going to prisons.

1:12:36 Speaker 2 Right

1:12:37 Speaker 1 And, um, then I, I went for the first time to that prison. I delivered, I gave it to the chaplain, and over the next two or three years, different people, different things came up and, and then something clicked inside that I, I really, this was, like, so horrible what's going on with these people, and especially the Rebbe talks in it, so I made a chaval to, to see every Jew in the state of Illinois at least once a month. And it took a lot of avoda to be able to break into this place, that place. Now we go to 30-plus places, but I would, uh-

1:13:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, so you, you still run the prison visitations in Illinois?

1:13:15 Speaker 1 I do that more than anything else now.

1:13:17 Speaker 2 Really?

1:13:18 Speaker 1 And I have three of my sons working with, with me on it.

1:13:21 Speaker 2 Uh, together with Aleph or you-

1:13:23 Speaker 1 We're, we're sort of like the Aleph in Chicago. We're, we're the go-to people in Chicago. We, we do the Aleph work, yeah.

1:13:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:13:31 Speaker 1 I work very closely with Mendy Katz and-

1:13:34 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Very nice. What was it like the first time you walked into a prison? What was that like? You're going on Shlichus, and you're going from the ni- the innocent world of 770 into, uh, into the, the hellscape of a prison.

1:13:48 Speaker 1 I, I actually found it very interesting.

1:13:51 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Explain.

1:13:52 Speaker 1 It's n- it's, it's not just run-of-the-mill. It's, it's the, the, the whole ad- uh, adrenaline rush of being able to get through the bureaucracy and the red tape to get in. They don't wanna let anything in. And to have to fight to get in, it, it, it, it's a whole Seder Avoda in Shlichus. I mean, to, you know, to advocate and to have to fight and to break through the choshech, and it's all what Chassidus is about. You go to the darkest place, you bring the light. That's all... It was, like, very exciting. Like, this is Chassidus 101. This is really, this is really mamash Derabbatach Tainim. This is Tachtainim.

1:14:31 Speaker 2 Is it, that's what you felt?

1:14:32 Speaker 1 Yes. That's what I still feel now.

1:14:34 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:14:35 Speaker 1 This is the ultimate. You have to go to these... Where is the Tachtainim? She'ein Tachton L'mateh Menah. These institutions are very dark and very dungeon-y and very oppressive and, and, and, like, you know, the people there are very... They're so distant in their actions. They've fallen as far as a person could fall.

1:14:54 Speaker 2 And in that place, which in your mind is a Tachtin She'ein Tachton L'mateh Menah, you feel that that is not the place to come in guns a-blazing. You need to know about the Rebbe, and you need to know Mashiach's coming. I need to give you a hopeful message. You feel that there is, at, in that moment, at least in that moment, the importance that if y- you have one, you have, you have an opportunity to share one idea with these people, and that one idea is gonna be that I see you as another human being.

1:15:25 Speaker 1 I'm gonna tell them a joke.

1:15:28 Speaker 2 Right. You're gonna treat them like a human being.

1:15:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. Right. 'Cause they haven't been treated like a human being for many years, and they're not treated there like a human being.

1:15:37 Speaker 2 How's that making a yirat chatim?

1:15:38 Speaker 1 'Cause you're bringing out and letting them know that they have a purpose, and they're there for a reason. And I, I, I try-

1:15:47 Speaker 2 Huh

1:15:47 Speaker 1 ... to convince them that they are shluchim there.

1:15:49 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:15:50 Speaker 1 They then have to be the one spreading the light there, and eventually it, little by little, it, it, it grows on them. They already know when I ask them, "When's your out day?" It's a trick question. Your out day is today. Mashiach's coming now. Don't give me what it says on the piece of paper. Getting out of here now. We're going out together.

1:16:09 Speaker 2 You tell them that?

1:16:10 Speaker 1 They already know. They already know.

1:16:11 Speaker 2 So once you know them-

1:16:12 Speaker 1 They already know.

1:16:13 Speaker 2 So once you get to know them.

1:16:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:16:15 Speaker 2 But that's not how it starts.

1:16:16 Speaker 1 I have, uh, uh, l- I have, have one man which I saw for 20 years once a month. What is 12 times 20? I mean, that's a lot of times to see a person.

1:16:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:28 Speaker 1 So after a while, you know, it's... And you don't know how meaningful it is. There's guys, they're behind these bars, maximum security. I have to walk up to their, right where they are, and I can't stand there for more than 10 minutes probably. But those 10 minutes a month are so impactful. It's, like, very, very intense. And some guys say sometimes I couldn't get to see them, but they saw me walking through the prison. That gave them, they, just a Yid walking in the prison with a hat, with a jacket, with a, it, it, it-

1:17:01 Speaker 2 Hmm

1:17:01 Speaker 1 ... gives them encouragement.

1:17:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. At, at the, at the risk of, at the risk of, um, of making everything too, too tidy and too, and too, uh, too organized, it's the same idea again. The, the patient approach... The impatient approach is I'm sitting with somebody in prison. I have one swing here. I'm gonna swing for the fences, right? And I'm going to, I'm going to basically, you know, tell them about Mashiach, tell them about the Rebbe, and, like, just download and give them as much... And, and without even being cynical about it, I'm just going to spray as much oil on these people as possible, and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna light up their lives, right? But the, the patient approach, the patient approach is that I am going to, I'm going to try to find and discover or rediscover their humanity so that they can stand on their own two feet, and that one day, like the Rebbe says in Basati Gani, that, that the welt itself, kol olam, right? That the welt itself should, should recognize godliness.

1:18:25 Speaker 1 Right.

1:18:25 Speaker 2 Right? Not that there's a God of the world, but that the world itself is God, and Vayikra, Atikah Vayikra El Veyakra, that the people should call that out, that the others should, the others should recognize that, right? And they should recognize it on, on, on the, on the most transformative kind of level. Um, and-

1:18:43 Speaker 1 Right. Even in the prisons, the guys are very impatient. Comes Pesach, comes Tefillin or Chanukah, or something doesn't go exactly right, there's some guys that are screaming, yelling, and wanna start sue everybody and do this and that, and-

1:18:57 Speaker 2 You're talking about the shlu-

1:18:58 Speaker 1 The, the, the-

1:18:59 Speaker 2 The Lubavitchers or-

1:19:00 Speaker 1 No

1:19:00 Speaker 2 ... prisoners.

1:19:01 Speaker 1 Talking about the guys on the inside.

1:19:03 Speaker 2 The prisoners.

1:19:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. They have, have a lot of impatience, and I'm trying to explain to them, "Listen, this is a long game." To break through and get them to do kosher properly, to get everything implemented the proper way, this takes a lot of negotiations, diplomacy, time.

1:19:20 Speaker 2 Good faith.

1:19:20 Speaker 1 And you need, you, you, you're not, you're not gonna get anywhere just screaming and yelling and filing papers. It's not gonna get you anywhere. It's, we just have to take this long... I've been told, "Rabbi, you take too long. You take too long." But I, I, I have to go with that. That's the approach that I think is most successful is the prison officials see I'm respectful. I have patience. I know where they're coming from. I know their difficulties. I know the logistical problems. And, you know, I'm not backing down. I'm advocating they should do it, but, you know, it's with sechel and time and patience. And, and, and also these guys, not then, their life when they reenter, not can actually get a job and a house right away. They have to learn patience. Take, it takes time. It takes... You need that long approach.

1:20:04 Speaker 2 So what's, what, what's, what's the secret of patience when it comes to your other preoccupation, which you're actually tr- traveling for tomorrow morning, which is camp? How does patience play a role in how you, in how you, uh, go about your camps?

1:20:21 Speaker 1 You're talking about in camp?

1:20:22 Speaker 2 Uh, camp with, with, with, with kids. How does the view of patience, how does the patient view play a, play a role in investing in children, uh, children's education for a few days of summer? Is there, is there a patient, is there, is there a patient approach to that as well?

1:20:41 Speaker 1 I'm not sure I'm getting the question exactly.

1:20:46 Speaker 2 You are, you are, you are putting a lot of effort and investment into a bunch of young children, many of whom probably do not show an immediate change in their lives as a result

1:21:00 Speaker 1 This particular program is all cheder kids.

1:21:03 Speaker 2 All cheder kids. But it has been like that all, all-

1:21:05 Speaker 1 It's for the last 10 years.

1:21:08 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:21:08 Speaker 1 But there always no-- has not always been that way.

1:21:11 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:21:11 Speaker 1 So our approach with the, well, let's say when it was a mixture of public school kids and Lubavitch kids, we never had two separate programs. We al- I, I, 'cause I, I grew up in Parkesville where back in the day where peop- it was all types of kids.

1:21:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:28 Speaker 1 Um, also I speak to the, the bachurim. I said, "I don't understand." They said, "We don't want the Lubavitcher kids." I'm trying to explain to them there's no such a thing as a Lubavitcher kid. Everybody's a kid. Kids are kids. A- and this might sound, I... The way I'll say it may not come off exactly right. I don't mean it exactly the way I'm gonna say it, but I always tell them, "Listen, buddies, you have to come all Thomas. Nobody's from. Everybody's the same."

1:21:54 Speaker 2 Explain that please.

1:21:55 Speaker 1 It means a Lubavitcher kid today is as fragile and as much in need as the love, and the patience, and the long game as the kid from public school.

1:22:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:05 Speaker 1 They're not any less. They're... Treat them the same. They're not d- they're not Lubavitcher kids. They're kids that need a lot of love and attention today. Doesn't matter who their parents are, doesn't matter the clothes they're wearing or the... It, it, it is, a lot of that could be shallow.

1:22:20 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:22:20 Speaker 1 It might not go, run deep. Y- y- you know, you have to s- s- k- just forget about that. You get a kid, love him.

1:22:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:28 Speaker 1 Don't, don't hate him 'cause they're a Lubavitcher kid.

1:22:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:30 Speaker 1 Don't punish him because of it.

1:22:31 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:22:34 Speaker 1 That's what I mean. So the, the, the approach is, is we pour down so much fun and so much, you know, good food, good activities, and, and just so the kid should be able to open his mouth and get like the, you know, the kesar, the, the drop coming in from the-

1:22:53 Speaker 2 The powdered diamond

1:22:54 Speaker 1 ... right, right. The amen, they say this and that. It, it, it, it's the atmosphere. It's an, and I, I'm, I am a Gan Yisroel product, so I'm looking at every kid. It's like it's me being redone. Like I know-

1:23:07 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:23:07 Speaker 1 ... everything I got was from that experience. I had years when in Ocean Parkway when, um, I wasn't... For years I didn't go to Gan Yisroel in the summer. I was working in, um, in Kosher King. I was working, I was making money. I was out, uh, walking on the boardwalk on Brighton Beach, and here and there. And, a- and I would wake up like, I guess a normal workaholic, 2:00, 3:00 in the afternoon 'cause I worked the night shift.

1:23:32 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:32 Speaker 1 And, a- and my davening, what was my whole davening? All the parts that were sung out loud in camp all the years.

1:23:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:46 Speaker 1 That was my davening.

1:23:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:48 Speaker 1 My davening for like those two, three summers. That was the only thing that helped me were the singing that I did in Gan Yisroel. It stuck with me through . You know, even when you go through the tough times, you don't forget those things. So, uh, and it's like I wouldn't be alive without Gan Yisroel.

1:24:07 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:24:08 Speaker 1 And, uh, that's what I wanna get to the, the- these kids.

1:24:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:11 Speaker 1 Five days, it's eight days, it's whatever days it is, it, it really gets poured on heavy in a fun way.

1:24:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:24:18 Speaker 1 In a fun way.

1:24:20 Speaker 2 And what's, what's... Have we-- we still didn't get the answer about the, about the legend of Rabbi Shaiman's farbrengens. You said that you, that-

1:24:30 Speaker 1 Okay. So we'll get there.

1:24:31 Speaker 2 That's what we're getting to.

1:24:33 Speaker 1 So, um, it, it, there's a, a few these medicines I take. One medicine is to go to the rebbe every month. Don't have a month go by without visiting the rebbe.

1:24:47 Speaker 2 What do you feel that gives you?

1:24:51 Speaker 1 A connection. Uh, I mean, I mean, ev- even a simple cell phone, you gotta plug in once in a while, doesn't... They don't last forever. I need a plug-in, and you know, I need a charge.

1:25:01 Speaker 2 You feel inspired every time you go to the rebbe?

1:25:03 Speaker 1 Oh, 100%.

1:25:03 Speaker 2 You do?

1:25:04 Speaker 1 I go... N- number one, that, uh, there's different charge by me. All 770 is one moshiach.

1:25:10 Speaker 2 Right. No, I didn't mean, I didn't mean that.

1:25:11 Speaker 1 I, I, I understood. I, I, I feel when I go to visit the rebbe, there's always really, really powerful brachos coming back and good things coming back-

1:25:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:25:23 Speaker 1 ... every single time. Another thing I find is very helpful is, uh, to visit, uh, a moser of the rebbe, if I could once a month, a mesifta or a yeshiva, and sit in farbrengen with bachurim, 'cause I feel bachurim have the pulse of the rebbe.

1:25:42 Speaker 2 Really?

1:25:43 Speaker 1 Really.

1:25:44 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that?

1:25:46 Speaker 1 What I mean is that, um, out of all the, the, whether it's the big academics or the Russian yeshivas, or the mashpiyim, or the big philanthropists, the people that... I, I'll just say, I, I think bachurim run Lubavitch.

1:26:08 Speaker 2 Really?

1:26:09 Speaker 1 I think Lubavitch runs on bachurim.

1:26:11 Speaker 2 Don't you think, though, that so much of this impatient attitude is almost because of the, the rise of adolescent thinking? Like almost the petulance of adolescents that need everything immediate. Like, so much of the patience that you're talking about is the, it comes with maturity and wisdom, and experience of life, knowing that things don't happen overnight.

1:26:36 Speaker 1 So that's where the beauty is.

1:26:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:26:39 Speaker 1 It's the blending of the, um... If, if I go into the mesifta or I'm sitting with bachurim, they r- do have very broad and you could even say, you know, oiris to tell you ideas. And, um, so number one, if I'm coming in, it's sort of like- It, it, it, it could, you know, so we discuss it. I have bochrim that come every summer to be counselors, right? Or except, uh, now my son does it. But me and my son have a, a, a ho- a, a halach, halachic dais. One chaimen says that what the bochrim and the girls say, you have to implement. When they're coming into camp, they have these wild ideas. I always say, "Tell them yes. Tell them yes." And we've seen such innovations in camp year after year after year because these out of the box ideas come in. Why say no to them? Implement them, and it really has helped camp. And my son says, "Are you out of your mind? We have the American Camping Association. There's safety, there's this, there's the parents. Da, da, da, no, no, no. No. I'm gonna tell them what to do." And now he runs the camp, and I can't, I can't argue with him. And I'm gonna let him run it the way he wants, uh, 'cause it's his... I have to let him do that. I learned that from Rabbi Moskowitz. Let the shliach be... He doesn't have to do what you do. He has to do it the way

1:28:08 Speaker 1 he's, he sees it. I still am under that... Now, what I say to the bochrim yes, you know what we do? Yes, now let's sit and talk about it and plan it out. Do you know what happens in the planning stage? Reality sets in, and the idea happens, but in a very measured way.

1:28:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:28:31 Speaker 1 In a very responsible way. In, in a... It happened. It wouldn't have happened without their idea. It, they, they've taken camp up a notch. But I'm not saying, if I say, "No, it's a fight, it's a fight, it's a fight." Yes, always say yes, and then let's talk about it.

1:28:50 Speaker 2 What do you think it was about camp that made, that, that, that touched you on such a profound level? Or what do you think it is about camp that touches other children on such a profound level? What is it? Just the, the amount of fun that you have? What... It's gotta be deeper than that.

1:29:04 Speaker 1 Um, well, number one, it's not school.

1:29:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:08 Speaker 1 And I think that, that, that the, the Rebbe many times has even said that overnight camp could, could even be more powerful-

1:29:14 Speaker 2 Yes

1:29:14 Speaker 1 ... maybe is more powerful-

1:29:16 Speaker 2 Yes

1:29:16 Speaker 1 ... than school. So what is the difference between camp and school, and why is that? Why, what, what you could accomplish in camp, I mean, there's, is, there's some, there's some relaxation. People are able to have more expression. Uh, you could get away with a few more things than you would if you're in school. And, and, and yet the learning, though, you are learning in a, in a positive... Just the atmosphere. Everybody's in shul saying amen. Everybody in shul is-

1:29:48 Speaker 2 But what spoke to you? But what spoke to you? Do you remember what spoke to you? Do you have any idea what, what, what, what connected to you?

1:29:54 Speaker 1 Well, uh, again, I just told you that I see certain people that might be 65 or-

1:30:01 Speaker 2 Yes

1:30:01 Speaker 1 ... 75 or 80 now, and they're my counselor because they may... I only have them for, for eight weeks, but the connection that they instill just as, you know, they, they... It wasn't preaching. It was just, um, living, living the role.

1:30:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:19 Speaker 1 And, and seeing somebody living it and having fun. It made an impact on me as a, as, as a child, and, uh, and that's the same thing I do, I think I do when I go in the prisons. I'm walking in there and just modeling behavior.

1:30:32 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:32 Speaker 1 I don't really have to tell them much. They just see-

1:30:35 Speaker 2 Right

1:30:35 Speaker 1 ... I'm enjoying Yiddishkeit. I'm in the same as... I, I'm getting harassed by the guards, too, and I have a totally different attitude. I just model what they should do, and it makes a big impact.

1:30:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:46 Speaker 1 And, and I'm coming in as an advocate for them, same as camp. The counselor is your advocate, and he's, uh, you know, he, he, he, he's... It, it's to have fun. Um, I, I, I, I don't know. I can't put my finger on it. I mean...

1:31:01 Speaker 2 That's the whole point, though, isn't it? The whole point is that, the whole point is that, that connections are made in life that push people, like, what's the famous, uh, example of, like, balls that hit each other, and, you know, like they, they... I don't know if atoms or different... I think I've seen, I've seen, like, you know, it, it... One ball hits another ball in a tight space. One ball hits another ball, and that ball hits-

1:31:27 Speaker 1 Oh, it's just energy?

1:31:28 Speaker 2 ... and that ball hits another ball, and hits another ball, hits another ball, and it's, it's almost random and unpredictable. But things, things, things touch each other and bounce off each other and, and nudge things in a different space that then sets off another reaction, another reaction, another reaction. And nobody really knows what, what that is and how that works. But that's in many ways what, what, what connection is like, right? Okay. I once, I once thought about how, you know, the famous, famous idea of tradition and transmission is that, uh, the famous mashal, the famous, uh, image is the shalsheles, the chain, and we're all links on a chain, et cetera, et cetera, going back to Avraham Avinu. When you think about a chain, there's, like each two links that are linked together, they touch each other on, at, uh, on a, a fraction, a tiny fraction of the whole ring. Right? It's not like they're bound together and now in lockstep. To the contrary, there's plenty of s- of flexibility, and that space can even change as the chain moves. We don't know what that, what that thing is and how it works, but we do know that when you make a connection that's real and, and, and profound and true, it's lasting. And if it's lasting, it nudges people somewhere down, like, with time.

1:32:52 Speaker 1 Right. So I think that's the farbrengen secret. I think farbrengens are the camp of time krei temimim.

1:33:01 Speaker 2 Well said.

1:33:02 Speaker 1 Um, it's the time when it's, you're not in a shir, you're not sitting still. It's, you're still in yeshiva, but the whole atmosphere changes, and people are able to speak, you know, real-life experiences and things that you don't... And, and bring the books into real life, and it is more fun. There's singing. You could get up, you could dance, get out some of that energy that, you know, bachurim need that. I mean, a good farbrengen, once it's going, everybody, yeah, if you, if you don't jump out of your chairs and dance at least once, I mean, you know, it... So I think it's sort of like the camp of, of, of farbrengens. And a- as a bachur growing up, I got a lot out of farbrengens. Um, do you, do you know about the, the, um, uh, this happened once in Morristown. There's, must be a lot farbrengens, and then at least when I was at Morristown, you know, Thursday night, you go here, you go there.

1:34:01 Speaker 2 The fun ones.

1:34:02 Speaker 1 So they weren't so fun. Why?

1:34:04 Speaker 2 No, they weren't.

1:34:05 Speaker 1 Three or four guys got together, and they'd, like, harass some other guy.

1:34:10 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:34:10 Speaker 1 Like, "Why are you do- why is you here so long? Why are you reading English books? What are you doing?" And so I sat down with two chaverim, Murray Posner and Eli Cohen, and said, "What kind of farbrengen's this? Why don't we do something different? How about each one of us will say what the ma'ala of our friend is, and we'll learn three ma'alas tonight, and we'll learn three good things that, um, we can learn from each other." So I still remember the farbrengen until today.

1:34:40 Speaker 2 Look, uh, the-

1:34:40 Speaker 1 Me and Rabbi Posner said Eli Cohen always smiles. Always got a smile on his face, so okay, you have to smile. All right, Po- Posner's, oh, they always analyze things. They're very analytical. They're very go into... You don't just stam a ze. You have to, you know, work it out, work it out. And, um, my ma'ala was being adaptable.

1:34:59 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:35:00 Speaker 1 I could be with someone in this yeshiva, in that yeshiva, in this environment, in that environment, in a first marriage, and if the Hashem decides it has to be a second marriage because of a, a death, I'm adaptable. I can move into these things. I could, I, I, uh... So, um, that was a special farbrengen, but, uh, so I, I do the same thing to the best of my ability when I go to mosiftas, always to speak positive, not to be accentuating what bachurim aren't doing and what the problems are, but just talk positive things. I mean, the most negative I'll get is, "Could you guys stop hating yourself?" How do you expect to love anybody else if you, if you hate yourself?

1:35:47 Speaker 2 Fair, fair. Fair point.

1:35:50 Speaker 1 Right, and-

1:35:50 Speaker 2 I, look, I, I know how, I, I, I'm coming around to how they accepted you with your long hair in Lubavitch, how they accepted you with your positivity talk and talking about each other's ma'alas, that, that I don't know. But

1:36:03 Speaker 1 It, it-

1:36:04 Speaker 2 They, they, you, you must have been a charming young man for them to put up with you and your, uh, positivity.

1:36:14 Speaker 1 Right. A- a- and, and there is a new type of outer town kid these days. They're called online kids.

1:36:19 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:36:20 Speaker 1 So now I always make sure in some of the yeshivas, you really have to be nice to some of these kids in this environment. Like, I've gone three years now, but the, um, the machane in Arkansas, in Little Rock-

1:36:33 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:36:33 Speaker 1 ... that's for online kids. I have gone there for the last three years, farbreng with those kids.

1:36:37 Speaker 2 So you feel that you have a special sl- a special role to farbreng with kids, and it's also to your benefit as well?

1:36:44 Speaker 1 Correct. So at least once a month.

1:36:46 Speaker 2 Once a month.

1:36:46 Speaker 1 Whether it's the machane there, whether it's, uh, the, you know, wherever it is.

1:36:50 Speaker 2 And it's, for you, it's a kind of medicine.

1:36:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. And because it's, um, 'cause, 'cause I believe the bachur energy is very, very... And bachurim, a- again, not painting anybody where their levels are, just it, there's something about a bachur. Wherever he's at, there's bachur energy. I don't know how to describe it. It's, it does me good.

1:37:14 Speaker 2 All right. This has been a wonderful farbrengen. I'm sure it's, it's, it's done me good. I hope it's done you some good.

1:37:19 Speaker 1 Right.

1:37:19 Speaker 2 And I, I'm sure it'll do some m- m- much good for those listening. And, uh, thank you very much for making the time. It's been a pleasure getting to know you and farbrengen with you. And, uh, we should have a lot of hatzlacha in camp-

1:37:34 Speaker 1 Right

1:37:35 Speaker 2 ... which is starting tomorrow morning. How many kids do you have?

1:37:38 Speaker 1 It's gonna be between 30 and 35.

1:37:42 Speaker 2 35 potential stories. God knows where it's gonna go. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.