Ep. 68 // "Looking For What I'm Looking For" w/ Tzvi Kilov

00:01 Speaker 1 I realized in the end that there's something that I'm looking for, and there's something that I was looking for since I was a kid going to Chabad House. Even before then, when I was a kid reading Little Midrash Says and wandering around and playing with sticks. Basically, either I have to commit to that something that I'm looking for to the end, no matter what it costs, um, or I have to let that go and try and build structures and make something out of this. Paradoxically, the more, the more I decided that I'm looking for what I'm looking for, and I literally don't care, I'm just gonna go right through whatever, uh, anyone that gets in my way, long story short, the more I did that, the more of a fanatical Lubavitcher and a fanatical Jew I feel I've become.

00:51 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Hafetz, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here in Sandy Springs, round two, with a, a very, very esteemed, um, esteemed friend and, uh, personality. My, my favorite, favorite X Twitter, uh, f-follow, unquestionably.

01:29 Speaker 1 Wow.

01:29 Speaker 2 Uh, Reb Tzvi Kielov, resident of Atlanta, Georgia, and, uh, if you haven't been following him, you're missing out, and I imagine after this conversation, you will, you will be following him. And, uh, so anyway, thank you very much for, for making the time.

01:48 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

01:49 Speaker 2 Um, we're here late at night, and, um, it's been a long day, I imagine for both of us.

01:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:55 Speaker 2 But, uh, it's time to burn the candle. And, um, again, for all those listening, and if you enjoy this podcast, like, subscribe, and do all the good things online, and if you're so inclined, donate on hfl.com... hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyway, Tzvi, why don't we begin with a little bit of background of how Tzvi Kielov- -AKA The Fool- -came to be? That's his handle on X.

02:27 Speaker 1 How I came to be?

02:30 Speaker 2 The, the, the, the, the Tzvi Kielov of today. How did, how did a nice, how did a nice Jewish boy from South Africa end up, end up, um, end up so, so, um, so confidently angry- -at the mo- at the modern world, and convinced that the modern world has nothing to, to offer?

03:01 Speaker 1 Um, uh, there's a long story and a short story. Um, the short story is born in South Africa, as you said, moved here to Atlanta, raised here in Atlanta since I was seven. Went to, uh, was sent to, by my parents, a modern Orthodox day school, more or less, um, until high school. In high school, I went to the local transdenominational Jewish high school, which was a new concept that was being invented at the time.

03:33 Speaker 2 Here in Atlanta?

03:34 Speaker 1 Here in Atlanta.

03:34 Speaker 2 Like a pluralistic kind of-

03:36 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Called the Weber School. Yeah.

03:37 Speaker 2 College prep.

03:39 Speaker 1 College prep, and the idea was that we're not sticking to any Jewish denomination, which was, um, an interesting experiment. I did go to the more traditional Orthodox high school for one semester, um, and that was a total and complete failure.

03:58 Speaker 2 From whose end?

03:59 Speaker 1 Uh, from my end. Um, I hated it. They didn't like me either. And, um, so after that one semester, I went to the transdenominational school, where basically, mitzad Yiddishkeit, I was left completely and totally alone, which is, uh, which was wonderful. It was like coming to America from a oppressive, uh, regime. Um, and, uh, um, I was a very, very, very curious and a very, very sensitive child. Um, and my family started going to Chabad House when we moved to Atlanta. We tried different Chabad Houses. We ended up in the one where I ended up growing up, and, um, we slowly sto-started... My, my parents started becoming more observant, uh, before I was born, is the truth. So a long, slow, uh, and steady, uh, progress, which is probably why it was so steady, because it was so slow.

04:50 Speaker 2 But they're also South African, so they're starting from a very-

04:53 Speaker 1 True. They started-

04:54 Speaker 2 -unique-

04:54 Speaker 1 True, true. They started from a more tr-- definitely a more traditional and a more informed and a more open to drinking alcohol, uh, position, all of which helped.

05:03 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

05:04 Speaker 1 Yes.

05:04 Speaker 2 South Africans drink alcohol?

05:06 Speaker 1 I have a mashpia who I can't name in this context who, who, who s-classifies Hasidism as the only monotheistic religion in which drinking is a core of the religion.

05:15 Speaker 2 No, I didn't know... I... That I knew. I, I didn't know-

05:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:17 Speaker 2 -that South Africans drink.

05:19 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

05:20 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

05:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:20 Speaker 2 The, the ones that I know are so, like, straight, straight-laced.

05:23 Speaker 1 Most South Africans are, are, are Litvish in extraction, so it's an interesting combination, but yes, there are exceptional Litvishers who drink.

05:31 Speaker 2 Oh, so the S- the South African culture is a drinking culture?

05:35 Speaker 1 In general, yes.

05:35 Speaker 2 I see.

05:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, the non-Jewish culture as well, and the Jewish culture too, um, which is maybe why so many of the shuls, even the non-Lubavitch shuls, ended up being run by Lubavitchers. Maybe. Who knows? Um, but anyway, I don't really remember so much about Yiddish culture in South Africa. I loved going to shul and all of that as a, as a s- as a kid does. Um, so yeah, my parents started becoming more observant from South African traditional... You know, they were South African traditional, which means you go to shul on an Orthodox-- You go to an Orthodox shul, uh, on Friday nights, and then on Shabbos day, you go and, uh- Play golf or, you know, furniture shopping or whatever it is you do.

06:12 Speaker 2 Right.

06:13 Speaker 1 And, um-

06:14 Speaker 2 Friday night. Friday night.

06:16 Speaker 1 You know, you have to go to the shul on Friday night and have a Tana social scene, and, um, so yeah, we started becoming more observant. We started keeping a higher form of kashrus. We ended up moving within walking distance of the shul and becoming Shomer Shabbos. And as all of that was happening and I was growing up, um, the local shliach, Rabbi Silverman in, uh, in Cobb, was the... He was the first one to start, as Yisroel Shemtov used to say when he came to visit my inot, he was the one who first started ruining my life. Um, and, uh, um, I was very, very into the Rabbi Silverman learned. Rabbi Silverman comes from South Florida, and, uh, he's-- his style of being a shliach is a combination of, um, Rabbi Lipsker from the shul, Bal Harbour, where he was the balki at a very young age when it was still in the storefront.

07:05 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

07:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, um, and, uh, Rabbi Levitansky, uh, alav ha-shalom, both alav ha-shalom. Rabbi Levitansky, Rabbi Levitansky of, um, Sim, Simcha Monica, um, were I think two of his big influences. But one of them, um, told him or showed him how powerful it can be to, uh, give a lot of divrei Torah in the shul, so.

07:27 Speaker 2 That's Rabbi Lipsker.

07:28 Speaker 1 Probably, yeah.

07:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the, um, so growing up, Rabbi Silverman used to say stuff from Sichos before Kriya, in between Aliyas-

07:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:39 Speaker 1 And then afterwards, before Musaf.

07:41 Speaker 2 That's Rabbi Lipsker.

07:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, um, I, uh, I, uh, started absorbing a lot of that, and I found it, um, what in retrospect I would call, you know, intellectually compelling. At the time, I don't know what I would have called it, but it was, uh, interesting stuff. I have to say that all this started after bar mitzvah. Before bar mitzvah, I was out, you know, wandering on the playground, uh, looking at clouds, playing with sticks. Uh, that was what my childhood was like, total space cadet in every way. Not in this world, uh, either in a book or in some fantasy, generally speaking. Uh, but after bar mitzvah, my dad said, "Well, since you're, you know, you're, uh, learning all this stuff, your bar mitzvah may as well stay in shul," uh, which was not a problem at all. I quite enjoyed it. And, um, uh, so I started learning a lot of the stuff, and then that in turn turned into reading a lot of books and being involved on chabad.org, where other rabbis started ruining my life in equal measure, like, uh, Rabbi Tzvi Freeman and, uh, Rabbi Yossi Talber and others. And, um, yeah, eventually, by about halfway through high school, I was desperate to get out of high school and go to yeshiva. Um, I had a very interesting, even already, relationship with Yiddishkeit. You know, uh, I would say, uh, existentialist at fourteen years old. Um-

09:00 Speaker 2 That's before Yiddishkeit?

09:01 Speaker 1 Together, in parallel. In parallel. Without, without any real seder to it. It's, it was all emotional. It had no... It was all, uh-

09:09 Speaker 2 So a lot of real angst.

09:10 Speaker 1 Angst. Yeah, real angst. Turbulence of adolescence. Um, you know, a lot of, a lot of fundamental, um, what would you call it? Uh, dread. Wondering what all this is for, where all of this is going. Is this just a, um, is this just a cradle-to-grave program in which I'm following a script, or am I-- do I actually have any, um, say in, in what all this is about, what all this society is about?

09:35 Speaker 2 Can you, can you define what that is? I, I don't mean to be cynical or-

09:39 Speaker 1 Not at all.

09:39 Speaker 2 What, what, what, what's, what's that like? I'm-- 'cause you're the second person this week telling me about teenage-

09:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:46 Speaker 2 Uh, angst.

09:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:47 Speaker 2 Like, like philosophical angst. Like, well, how did it... Like, I'm trying to see if I, if I completely missed out on this one in my teenage years. Like, uh, what kind of questions are you having?

10:07 Speaker 1 When you... You know, there's a certain integration and innocence in childhood that when you first become really capable of doing averus, you smash into little pieces for yourself, or you can, if you're very sensitive, maybe. Um-

10:30 Speaker 2 So it's like a religious thing?

10:31 Speaker 1 It's not even religious. It's more, it's more... You know what it is? It's, it's... It's a line from Batman, which is so stupid, but you don't have to tell people you're mecurious. It's on a podcast. Oh, no. But the, um, the-- you become afraid of your own power, I think is really what it is. I think that you realize that you've been going through life without any... It's actually interestingly kind of what Hasida says about bar mitzvah being a bardas, maybe. Yesh lemari. You know, you realize you've been going through life as just a, a, a... Every way I'm gonna describe it, of course, is only how I describe it now. It's not how I would have described it then. But nevertheless, you're going through life as a, as a, as a, a node in a chain of causes and effects.

11:14 Speaker 2 Sure. Sure.

11:14 Speaker 1 You're mekubal, and you give out, but the, the-- you receive causes, and you give effects, but it's, it's all in complete innocence. There's no separation from that, and it's totally natural. It's like a, it's like a, it's like being an animal-

11:27 Speaker 2 Right.

11:27 Speaker 1 In a way, right? It's all, uh, completely natural, completely instinctual, and at some point, you realize that you could actually really hurt someone with your behavior or really help someone. Of course, I always looked at it completely in the negative by personality. But the, uh, the... You, you, you have agency. You can really, really, like, you could really mess this up, and the consequences could be very painful, um-

11:53 Speaker 2 Mm.

11:53 Speaker 1 Which to a very sensitive kid, doesn't have to be that bad to be very painful. It could be something very, uh, slight, a slight change in, uh, you know, uh, the social tenor. You could really hurt someone's feelings and not understand that forgiveness is possible, and they're gonna have forgotten it by a week from now. Stuff like that. Um, uh, you know. It's a, it's a realization that, that you're not just another node in the chain, and if you keep just following your instincts, which of course in the teenage years start becoming more and more destructive, potentially destructive, um, you know, you could really, really hurt someone. Um, so it becomes... And then you realize the, the second step, which is even more terrifying, is that, um, this realization gives you no automatic power over your instincts. Your-- They could totally be running the show. Just because you realize that you really should, could hurt someone this way doesn't mean you have the ability to stop yourself so easily, especially in those years, um, you know, with, with how easy, um, you know, hormonal teenagers get angry or, or get sarcastic and things like that. Um, yeah.

12:52 Speaker 2 You, you basically become self-aware of this monster-

12:55 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:55 Speaker 2 ... inside of you.

12:55 Speaker 1 Basically, yeah. More or less.

12:57 Speaker 2 Interesting.

12:58 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. And, and I, I really, you know... It, it's like being, uh, it's like being a hammer to the side of a seven forty-seven. It's not like you know what, uh... It's not like you're, you're, you're contemplating this calmly day by day. It's kind of like just being dragged outside of a car or something, you know. It's, uh, your life's going on and you with it and, you know, leaving a, a trail of destruction in your wake, perhaps, uh, you know, uh, people whose feelings you've hurt. I mean, in very normal and mundane ways that I think most adults wouldn't, uh, probably lose any sleep over. But, um, for me, this was, uh, quite a disturbing problem and, um, yeah, it makes you really start to question, um, uh, you know, who am I? What does it mean to be a human being? What does it mean to, um... What does it mean to be part... It's, it even sounds, it even sounds, uh, childish in a way to say it, but what does it even mean to be part of a society in a sense? What does it, what, what does it mean that we live in a society, as they say on the internet, you know, uh, in the sense of, in the sense of I'm not socially isolated, and if I d- I can't be socially isolated and, and you're born with obligations. You're born, you come out of the womb not as a tabula rasa with, uh, with no, with

14:14 Speaker 1 no connections. You come out embroiled and entangled in all of these obligations and expectations, and what does that mean? And is that, is that... Is there any way to escape the pain of, uh, of, of, uh, being a disappointment to your Jewish parents, being a bad friend to your Jewish friends? Uh, things like that.

14:33 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening ten years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonialo, Torah Umesora, and Athalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Interesting.

15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:26 Speaker 2 The reason I'm asking is not, is not trying to psychoanalyze you.

15:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

15:30 Speaker 2 Um, and I would do a terrible job at that anyhow. It's that... Because I, I don't... I'm, I'm thinking as you're saying it and I, and, you know, maybe if I really, really dig, I could find something similar, but I just, I feel like... You know, I, I don't, I don't think I was a particularly insensitive, uh, kid-

15:49 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

15:49 Speaker 2 ... growing up. I mean, I, I don't, I don't know how you would measure these kind of things.

15:55 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

15:55 Speaker 2 But, you know, I, I do remember, like, seeing... Like, I think the first time I saw-

16:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

16:02 Speaker 2 ... a Frum divorced family.

16:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:06 Speaker 2 Like, they came to us once. We lived in Australia for, for a few months, uh, uh, of, of the year for a s- for a few years. And it was like the first time I think that I saw a, a, like, a single mom with her kids on Friday night. They came over for a meal.

16:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:21 Speaker 2 And I like, I went to my room crying. Like, so-

16:24 Speaker 1 Mm.

16:25 Speaker 2 Uh, not, not... That doesn't, like, speak to me as some kind of com- you know, sensi... I, I did some horrible stuff as a kid too, but I, I, like I, I remember these kind of moments of like-

16:35 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

16:35 Speaker 2 ... sensitivity-

16:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:36 Speaker 2 ... towards those things. But this kind of existential anguish-

16:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:41 Speaker 2 ... I don't remember at all. And, and so it could just be me and just like-

16:45 Speaker 1 Mm

16:45 Speaker 2 ... I'm just my... You know, that's just me and I'm... That's not... Or I'm wondering, like, if... Is it to do with, like, the fact that at that age I was gonna say like Lub-- like I had all the answers.

16:57 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:57 Speaker 2 Like was-

16:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:58 Speaker 2 Like-

16:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:59 Speaker 2 ... and like maybe if I have to find this kind of anguish in me in my story, it's later when-

17:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

17:07 Speaker 2 ... like those answers ran out.

17:08 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm.

17:09 Speaker 2 So I... That's why I'm pointing to it because like-

17:11 Speaker 1 It's an interesting point. Yeah

17:12 Speaker 2 ... 'cause you're the second person this week who's bringing that up.

17:15 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:15 Speaker 2 And it's could-- it could be, and probably Occam's razor is that you and the other guy were both unusually sensitive teenagers-

17:24 Speaker 1 Mm

17:24 Speaker 2 ... who just were thinking about things that a lot of teenagers don't think about, and I just happened to be talking to you, you know, and this podcast is kind of, uh, predominated by people with, with all kinds of funky questions. But-

17:37 Speaker 1 Sure

17:37 Speaker 2 ... I think, I think, I, you know, I think it's also a possibility that, you know, like when you grow up in the... Like, like I remember if I look back, like the, like the, the question that would, would make me almost like what, what, um, what the existentialists called or Sat- Sartre called, um, the, the nausea.

17:57 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:57 Speaker 2 Like where you like... Like I, I literally had to go to sleep to get out of my system.

18:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:01 Speaker 2 The one... It was like Moshiach's coming, and we're gonna live for eternity.

18:05 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

18:05 Speaker 2 And I, I was like, "I can't compute that."

18:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:08 Speaker 2 And I would start thinking into it. And like, wait, 100 years, 1,000 years, a million years? And even now as I'm saying it, it's like the dread is rising.

18:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:16 Speaker 2 Not, not that I think it's a bad thing, it's more I can't, I can't handle it.

18:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:20 Speaker 2 And as a kid, I didn't know what to do with it.

18:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:22 Speaker 2 So it's just, like, weird, like, the, the, the juxtaposition of that being my dread.

18:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

18:27 Speaker 2 Like, like, the world's too full of meaning versus- ... versus your dread of, like, there's no meaning.

18:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:32 Speaker 2 It's just, it's just interesting.

18:33 Speaker 1 That is very interesting. That's a very interesting point. I mean, I think, I think that that's a very apt observation. I think that, um, it helps a lot to not just to be g- not just to be raised within the entire, uh, community, but I think especially the Rebbe or even just the idea of the Rebbe is very helpful in the sense that, uh, you know, there's a human being who was here recently who it was all reconciled within him, and it was all, you know, it's okay. A human being-- There's a good way of being a human being. Whereas for me, that was more of a question mark, I suppose.

19:11 Speaker 2 Right.

19:12 Speaker 1 Um, and you know, uh, dramatic teenager, a sensitive teenager. Um, obviously intellectually, I had everything all figured out, um, which is ironic 'cause I'm about to tell you about the 15 times I realized I had everything all wrong. But the, um, the, the... You know, I went on a very, very quick sort of, um, reductionist kind of, uh, uh, a tour of all ideas, and basically, you know, uh, I was, I was looking for what, what was underneath them, right? Is what underlays everything? What makes anything certain? Is there anything that, that I can't doubt? Is there anything that actually, you know, has any real solid, unquestionable meaning? And of course, the, uh, answer was absolutely not, right? And nothing has, uh, has unquestionable, uh, undoubtable, uh, uh, meaning. And at the same time, um, mitzvat chemi, um, I didn't really have questions on Yiddishkeit within the context of Yiddishkeit either. I was-- It was very interesting. I was, on the one hand, um, totally doubting everything, but on the other hand, quite enjoying Yiddishkeit and not making a, um, a-

20:17 Speaker 2 Wait. Did you take it seriously as, like, a discipline, or was it just like, "Uh, this is a cute cultural relic that makes me feel good?"

20:24 Speaker 1 I suppose closer to the latter-

20:26 Speaker 2 Right

20:26 Speaker 1 ... even though what got me interested in it was intellectual, but not intellectual in the sense of, can I, uh, hold this up to every single question that I have and test it against those questions? More in the sense of just, um, this is really interesting. You know where it really all goes back to? I skipped a part of the story.

20:44 Speaker 2 Okay.

20:44 Speaker 1 What it really, really all goes back to is that my grandmother, blessed memory, my mother's mother, bought me a set of The Little Midrash Says right before we left South Africa.

20:54 Speaker 2 Oh, you talk about this all the time. What, it's your favorite book?

20:57 Speaker 1 It's my most important Sefer in Yiddishkeit, for me anyway. The, um... And I used to read on Saturday morning before shul-

21:03 Speaker 2 People are gonna think that you're, like, a full-on, like, uh, illiterate. It's not the case. I'm saying we're gonna get to, but this is, this is, this is a guy who c- who can, who can, who can, who, who knows his way around some of the book, you know?

21:14 Speaker 1 Oh, stop. The, um, the... But I used to read The Little Midrash Says with the, with the milk from the cereal dripping down my chin as a kid, um, for each Parsha, right? You know, "This is the Parsha. Why don't we read The Little Midrash Says? I love the pictures and everything." It's very interesting. Since then, whenever I talk about The Little Midrash Says, someone always says that I tried reading it to my kids and it scared them. My kids were afraid, which I found quite interesting because I loved it. Um-

21:36 Speaker 2 So but there you go. That, that's similar to what I'm talking about.

21:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

21:40 Speaker 2 That's what I'm talking about.

21:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:41 Speaker 2 If you're a Frum kid-

21:42 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:42 Speaker 2 ... the Midrash is very disturbing.

21:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:46 Speaker 2 'Cause, like, the charac-- the two-dimensional characters of Torah-

21:50 Speaker 1 Mm

21:50 Speaker 2 ... very quickly it starts getting very, "Wait a second."

21:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

21:53 Speaker 2 S- You know what I'm saying?

21:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's a certain, uh, umbral darkness, uh, you might say-

21:58 Speaker 2 Yes.

21:58 Speaker 1 ... to the Midrash, which I absolutely love. Um, and, um, maybe it's because I was raised on, um, Spider-Man, Spider-Man and X-Men and not on... I don't know. I don't know how they can be blamed or not, but, um, I was not... I, I don't know. Maybe it's also part... There's definitely, uh, if you wanna really get into the psychoanalysis, the, the, the immigrant story definitely has a big part to play with it. But the, the, the, um, um, outsiderism and weird things and, uh, and, uh, darkness, dark things were, were already of an interest at a very young age, and I loved it. I absolutely loved The Little Midrash, and that's what I found intellectually compelling about the speeches between the Aliyas in the Chabad house, is that there's more to the story of the Midrash, and there's beautiful ways of explaining certain dynamics in the Midrash.

22:45 Speaker 2 Gets you, it gets you even deeper.

22:47 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:48 Speaker 2 It's very different.

22:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. The Rebbe Sichos on Midrashaim were, were, were a huge part of how I ended up here today.

22:54 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's a famous... I think it's a famous story, if it even happened. You know how these things go. But, uh, uh, certainly a fam... Yeah, I think, I think it happened. That I think the Rebbe said to someone about, like, describing the depth of the, in, in the Shama, that sometimes you have to, like, dig through all the soil-

23:12 Speaker 1 Mm

23:12 Speaker 2 ... to get to the wellspring underneath.

23:14 Speaker 1 Mm.

23:15 Speaker 2 Right? Like, the, as... Like, there's this kind of almost... Like, it, it's not linear at all.

23:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:22 Speaker 2 Right?

23:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:23 Speaker 2 Like, it's getting dirtier and dirtier-

23:24 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:25 Speaker 2 ... dirtier until it, until you finally hit purity.

23:27 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

23:28 Speaker 2 Right? It, it... And there's a similar, there's a similar thing there, where, like, you have this layer of, you know, just s-top soil, whatever, kind of, you just take everything for granted. Then there's this very dark space-

23:42 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:42 Speaker 2 ... that, like, you, you're, you're already looking underneath the hood, and everything is murky and whatever, and the goal is to get to a place where that becomes refreshing, right?

23:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

23:54 Speaker 2 And that, that, that kinda sounds like the journey that you're... The, the layers-

23:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:58 Speaker 2 ... that you're talking about.

23:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, and, um, I don't know. The, the, the Midrash, because it's stories, it's because it's stories-

24:10 Speaker 2 It's stories

24:10 Speaker 1 ... is really what it is. It's so rich. It's so-

24:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

24:13 Speaker 1 It's like the cultur-cultural heritage of Yiddishkeit. It's like if Yiddishkeit was completely secular, God forbid, it would be... To not teach your kids this would be like a tragedy. This is like the-

24:22 Speaker 2 Oh, it's fantastic literature.

24:24 Speaker 1 It's unbelievable.

24:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

24:25 Speaker 1 And there's, there's, there's religious things in the Midrash that are, that are, i-in terms of religious instruction, that you can revisit. And even when you first read the story, it's not, it doesn't strike you, especially as a little kid, but the, the richness and the depth. You know, I was just talking this evening with someone about, about, um, you know, the story in the Gemara where, where, where one of the Chazal, I forget who, um, basically disrespected... In, in preparation of a Shiur that he was giving, he disrespected the, the, the ancient kings who were Evda Zara, and particularly Menashe. And Menashe comes to him in a dream that night and tells him, um, "Who are you to, to like, um, to disrespect us?" In other words, "So we were Evda Zara, so what? Like, you should, you know, show some respect. You're gonna I'll teach you, I'll teach you." It was something-- He didn't know, he didn't know one of the halachas of making hamotzi, and, and he was gonna teach him that halacha, but first show me some respect, something like that. I'm messing up the story. But the bottom line is, is that, is that he says, "Weren't you, weren't you avodah zarah?" And the Melech, I think it was the Melech Menashe, the famous, the worst, uh, they say of the-

25:35 Speaker 3 Yeah, right

25:35 Speaker 1 ... of the kings. And Menashe tells him that, "If you had been in my generation, you would have lifted up the hems-

25:41 Speaker 3 Right. Yes

25:42 Speaker 1 ... of your, of your garment to run after avodah zarah." This is a-

25:46 Speaker 3 We at least tried to stumble our way.

25:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like you don't even know what we were dealing with, and basically like, uh, you know, you basically... There's explanations for us too. It's not-- You can't just, you can't just adopt an ideology that you have where everything's all nice and you're a good boy, and it's so easy to not, uh, worship idols and then judge us.

26:03 Speaker 3 I mean, side note, imagine-

26:05 Speaker 1 Mm

26:05 Speaker 3 ... just replace avodah zarah with pornography.

26:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:08 Speaker 3 And like that, that, that changes the conversation a little bit today, doesn't it?

26:11 Speaker 1 It does. It changes in general the conversation about ideologies in general.

26:17 Speaker 3 But-

26:17 Speaker 1 But you're right. No, within, within Yiddishkeit. I understand what you're saying.

26:19 Speaker 3 But like how like we-- the way we like, the way we pathologize-

26:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

26:23 Speaker 3 ... like, this, this king also said like, uh, we did it, but we were, we were trying not to do it.

26:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:29 Speaker 3 And that in itself is something.

26:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and the, that you have no understanding of our desire, of the desire that existed in the world for this.

26:37 Speaker 3 Right.

26:37 Speaker 1 How can you judge?

26:38 Speaker 3 Right.

26:39 Speaker 1 And the story ends that when he gives the shir, he calls him our teacher-

26:43 Speaker 3 Wow

26:43 Speaker 1 ... or he calls him Rav or whatever. Um, this is a, uh, this is a-- If, if, if as the, um, some modern critics would have it, the, the teachings of the rabbis of the Talmud were a patriarchal tool of social control, this is the worst possible story that you could have in the Gemara and in the Midrash. This is an antinomian, um, show some respect to people who threw all the laws away and didn't keep any of them, right? And you're nothing because you don't even understand the, the temptations that we faced. It's, it's, it's unbelievable.

27:15 Speaker 3 The rabbi loses all his, all his control.

27:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:19 Speaker 3 That's what you're saying?

27:19 Speaker 1 Basically, yeah.

27:20 Speaker 3 Yeah.

27:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. It's like, um, it's like, uh, if you wanna learn, I'll teach you, and I can be greater than you, even though I was a avodah zarah. So you don't know what you're talking about. It's, it's rem-- it's remarkable. It's remarkable for-

27:33 Speaker 3 You like this stuff to this day.

27:34 Speaker 1 I love it.

27:34 Speaker 3 You love this stuff.

27:36 Speaker 1 I love it because it's, it's, it's so-

27:38 Speaker 3 What are you after? You're trying to subvert everything? Is that, is that, is-

27:41 Speaker 1 No. God forbid

27:42 Speaker 3 ... And I know, I know you're not. So like what's, what's the thrill of, of, of, of, of this? Because look, there's no question, if you look at Chassidus at face value-

27:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

27:52 Speaker 3 ... there's a very subversive quality to the way it looks at everything, right?

27:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

27:56 Speaker 3 There's the, the, the foot is, is, is higher than the head.

27:59 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

28:00 Speaker 3 Every- everything they-- "Even masa bei yom chaysu l'achshav pina," this is a trope in the Chassidut era.

28:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:05 Speaker 3 Ev- everything is always what you think is low is higher.

28:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it's, it's part of Avodas Hashem. It's part of an, an organized system of thought.

28:12 Speaker 3 Right.

28:13 Speaker 1 And it's inherent, it's inherent to the very deepest depths of that system, that the lowest is not really lowest.

28:19 Speaker 3 So what, what thrills you about it?

28:20 Speaker 1 But what thrills me about that is not the Avodas Hashem part, which I barely understand. What really thrills me about it is that, um, there's a higher standard for what Yiddishkeit can be. And I went for a long time hearing that Yiddishkeit was something else, and that what I thought Yiddishkeit was, was a totally idiosyncratic departure from the norm, uh, kind of, um, you're off on your own mission, which I suppose is still true in some way. But, um, I like that occasionally, uh, it just seems so clear that Judaism as a, as a... I don't know what the word is for it. Judaism as a, as a, as a, a, a, a mere communal project, no matter how religious the community, is not all of Judaism. There's more. It's not just a communal project. There's, there's, there's something that actually does speak to me about Yiddishkeit, bottom line.

29:26 Speaker 3 You don't like the communal project of it?

29:29 Speaker 1 I don't like-

29:29 Speaker 3 What, what do you mean by communal project?

29:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, the project of religion in general, and I'm with, um, Manes Freidman, who so many people nowadays don't like, that it's false to call Yiddishkeit a religion in many ways. Um, but the project of religion in general is to get God exactly where you want Him.

30:04 Speaker 3 Right.

30:05 Speaker 1 You have God exactly where you want Him. You have Him all boxed in.

30:09 Speaker 3 Right.

30:09 Speaker 1 You have Him all-- You have Him in the, in the perfect position where you, you, your relationship with Him is totally codified, and you, you, you, you know what's wrong, you know what's right. It's all so simple, like this rabbi in the Talmud did, by the way.

30:22 Speaker 3 Right. Oh, yeah. Well, yep.

30:24 Speaker 1 And the, the, the, the cor- the corollary of that is either... Well, there's different ways you could look at it, and there's different ways it could work, right? What do you do if, if, if-- The, the whole idea that the Jew is a piece of God is an incredibly radical idea, that Nevuchadnezzar is a piece of God is a fundamentally radical idea.

30:49 Speaker 3 Right.

30:49 Speaker 1 So of course, if you're gonna make a religion even out of that, then you have to-- the religion has to grow and become even more, um, better at building structures and putting things in their place. In which case, um, it's not just God, it also has to be the piece of God as well that also has to fit into the whole system. The bottom line is, is most people don't have to go that far because most systems don't have the, the Jew as a piece of God.

31:10 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

31:10 Speaker 1 Most systems have the person as a bechal, uh, uh, nothing-

31:13 Speaker 3 Right

31:13 Speaker 1 ... aspirational, um-

31:15 Speaker 3 A fallen whatever.

31:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's the more, the more Hasidisha the system, the harder and harder it is to do that. But, um-

31:22 Speaker 3 So you like the elusiveness of it, is what you're saying. You like the elusiveness, that you can never nail it down.

31:27 Speaker 1 I don't think that God is found outside. I don't think God is a great and terrible subjectivity. I think God is fundamentally an interior phenomenon. God is known by the soul, not found out in the world. And I believe-

31:42 Speaker 3 Wait, that, that doesn't make it subjective?

31:44 Speaker 1 So it is sub... Pardon me, what did I say?

31:46 Speaker 3 Oh, it's not a terrible objectivity.

31:48 Speaker 1 He's not a great and terrible objectivity. He's not the highest and the biggest tatti, and the biggest, um, even though all of that, of course, is also true, it's, it, it, it, the whole-- all the words can work either way, right?

31:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

31:59 Speaker 1 It's how, what, what's behind the words.

32:00 Speaker 3 He's not Greek. He's not Aristotle.

32:02 Speaker 1 He's not Greek.

32:03 Speaker 3 He's not Greek.

32:03 Speaker 1 That's a very good way of putting it.

32:04 Speaker 3 No, you-

32:04 Speaker 1 I don't know if that's helpful to the listeners, but yes.

32:06 Speaker 3 Well, you wrote a phenomenal thread about it-

32:07 Speaker 1 Mm

32:08 Speaker 3 ... a week or so ago, two weeks ago, maybe.

32:11 Speaker 1 He's not Greek. He's not Greek. Hierarchical religion.

32:15 Speaker 3 Right.

32:15 Speaker 1 Hierarchical religion is not Yiddishkeit. In fact, there's a very interesting Maimon where they talk about what do the umma saalim believe. And what's interesting is I think most people reading those Maimon would read them a little bit different than I'm inclined to read them, in the sense that-

32:30 Speaker 3 You're talking about Elokah d'Elokah, like the Jew?

32:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, Elokah d'Elokah. Um, um, there's no real, there, there's no real, um, uh, uh, there's no real hislavshas. There's different ways that, that, that, uh, that the Rabbi put it. Um, you know, if you look up in, say, Fraile Kutim, umma saalim, for example, you know, you can read the Taanit Tzedek for twenty pages on what a Goyim believe. I think it's very interesting. I think a lot of people read those Maimon and assume that there's some kind of particular Goyish philosophy that Taanit Tzedek has in mind, because it can't be that there's a fundamental difference between Yiddishkeit and all Goyish philosophies that are all alike in one way, and Yiddishkeit is different.

33:13 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

33:13 Speaker 1 Which I think, by the way, is, um, well, maybe we get that into that a different time, but there are some strands of Yiddishkeit where that's actually the foundation of all Yiddishkeit, is that the Yiddishkeit's a variant, a variant on a theme, as opposed to something completely disjoint and completely different.

33:26 Speaker 3 Right.

33:27 Speaker 1 Um, but I think the Taanit Tzedek, when he talks about that, is talking about the difference between Yiddishkeit and all Goyish religions, and one way you could put those Maimon about Elokah d'Elokah and about hislavshas and hishtalshelus, is that right, "Rehemu Hashem al Goyim," is a, is a pasuk in many of those Maimon, right?

33:42 Speaker 3 Right.

33:42 Speaker 1 That God is exalted.

33:43 Speaker 3 Right.

33:43 Speaker 1 Which means, which means basically God is high, and the closer you are to God, the higher you are. And the further away from God, the lower you are, and everything is structured like that, and society should be structured like that. And everybody, there's, there's closer and there's further, and that's it.

33:58 Speaker 3 Hamakbil et Shabbos.

34:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

34:01 Speaker 3 And that's what, that, that's what it is, right?

34:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

34:02 Speaker 3 It's what we say in the Hallel every month.

34:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Whereas in Yiddishkeit-

34:07 Speaker 3 Hamashpil et l'ro'eh.

34:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Hamashpil et l'ro'eh. The Ibishter is so much higher, and paradoxically, that means He's so much closer-

34:16 Speaker 3 Right

34:16 Speaker 1 ... in everything. Which means that the entire paradigm of closer and farther is itself a shtickel not real. It's real in the sense that the Ibishter creates it and the Ibishter wants it. There is such a thing as nas tachas and vechulu vechulu. But that's-

34:31 Speaker 3 But that's only, that's our map. That's our mapping-

34:33 Speaker 1 Yeah

34:33 Speaker 3 ... which is not even close to... Yeah.

34:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. So the, the, the, what, what all this means practically, this is all, like, um, in a sense, this is all not really being very honest because this is all just like, um, a retroactive justification of what I knew already from the beginning. In other words, what I assumed to be true already, um, in the sense that, um, um, my approach is completely wild, and I just, uh, take the intuitive truth as it seems to me and then worry about proving it and demonstrating it later in Hasidus. But the, uh... I'm half joking, by the way. The, um-

35:03 Speaker 3 You, you're, you're saying that, you're saying that you can't... It fits your personality, is what you're saying.

35:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. If it's my personality.

35:10 Speaker 3 Okay. What's wrong with that?

35:12 Speaker 1 Nothing. The, um-

35:14 Speaker 3 That means that you're one of the neshamas that Rabash chose, you know? Isn't that what it means?

35:17 Speaker 1 I suppose that's true, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Um-

35:21 Speaker 3 I think mo- I think most Jewish people are, are quite subversive on, I mean-

35:25 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:25 Speaker 3 ... on some level. I mean, just the, just the history of it.

35:27 Speaker 1 There's a tendency, which makes it, uh, all the more confusing and difficult understanding Orthodox Jews.

35:37 Speaker 3 I mean, I, I don't think Orthodox Jews is a thing until a couple hundred years ago. I don't, I don't, I, I don't think-

35:43 Speaker 1 The nebach that Rabash chose my neshamah that came in these two hundred years davka, so what a mess. No, I'm kidding. Um-

35:49 Speaker 3 You're, you're being mesaken for, for God knows what before.

35:54 Speaker 1 The fascists, yeah. Yeah.

35:55 Speaker 3 As we approach the two-year mark of this podcast, Homesick for Lubavitch has become a household name in the Lubavitch community, with thousands of views each week on YouTube alone, as well as thousands more on the various podcast platforms. We have a devoted audience that listens regularly to the conversations and shares their thoughts with their families and communities. If you would like to sponsor an episode or advertise on one of our episodes, please reach out to bentzi@uvlamedia.com. That's bentzi@uvlamedia, Y-U-V-L-A, media.com. I mean, the nice thing about Golgulum, I think, is that you can always assume that it was worse before.

36:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

36:38 Speaker 3 You're getting, you're getting closer to the tikkun.

36:40 Speaker 1 I guess, yeah. Yeah.

36:41 Speaker 3 I mean, so as bad as it is now, probably a step up.

36:45 Speaker 1 I learned recently this-

36:46 Speaker 3 I mean, depends how you look at Golgulum, right? Is Golgulum a punishment or, or a-

36:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of opinions which say that Golgulum is b'chesed-

36:54 Speaker 3 Right

36:54 Speaker 1 ... from the Ibishter, like you fix things and-

36:56 Speaker 3 You know what's fascinating? The Tanya opens up with, "Mashchim ois it iz alek bal ti rosh."

37:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

37:00 Speaker 3 Right? That's a Gemara that's based on what we say in davening, "Chaber chotzicha, chokhem," um, "Chaber chotzicha, choloshon chotzi shavah."

37:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:11 Speaker 3 Right? And so there's the, what the Gemara says, "What's a Berakh chatikhra?" It's, it's the Zu Yoma Misa.

37:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

37:20 Speaker 3 Where, where you're... The, the neshamah basically has to prostrate itself in failure that it didn't live up to. What didn't it live up to?

37:28 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:28 Speaker 3 "Choloshen chatashava. Zu, Zu Yoma Leida mashvin oisiti tzak ki tirasha"

37:32 Speaker 1 Right. Right, right, right.

37:33 Speaker 3 So the, the Mashal asks, it's, it's backwards.

37:38 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:38 Speaker 3 It should be "Choloshen chatashava aneinu chaber khosifa"

37:41 Speaker 1 Right, right, right. Breath and then death, yeah.

37:43 Speaker 3 Right. So what does he say? He says, "This is, this is gilgul."

37:46 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:47 Speaker 3 Right? Every... The, the Yoma Leida comes after the-

37:51 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

37:51 Speaker 3 ... the, the past, right? And, and that thr- I mean, it's just a Mashal, and I know that's, like, it doesn't mean that's what the Taarba was being mekaben to-

37:59 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

37:59 Speaker 3 ... with this Gemara, but it kind of throws the whole Tanya-

38:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

38:01 Speaker 3 ... into this, this rubric of, you know, the, the, the eternal struggle to, to accomplish something-

38:10 Speaker 1 Yeah

38:10 Speaker 3 ... that's inherently impossible.

38:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, that's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, yeah. I just learned recently, uh, quasi apropos of nothing-

38:19 Speaker 3 Yeah

38:20 Speaker 1 ... that, um, you know, there's a famous shailah of, um, of, uh, which guf, which guf does the, does the neshamah come back in, it's geshem mason, right?

38:28 Speaker 3 Right.

38:28 Speaker 1 All these gilgulim.

38:29 Speaker 3 Yes.

38:29 Speaker 1 There's all different answers. Some say the first, some say the last. There's all different opinions, but what I learned recently is that Rebbe Yisroel of Berditchev is, uh, says very interestingly, it's interesting, uh, image. I told this to someone, and they weren't so in-- uh, they weren't so happy about it. But the, uh, Rebbe Yisroel of Berditchev says that, um, you know, uh, two hundred and forty-eight, uh, what's it called, uh, organs, three hundred and sixty-five sinews, so you'll... The body that was metaken, that organ-

38:52 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

38:52 Speaker 1 ... and that mitzvah, you'll get that part of that body. So it's gonna be like, uh, you know, uh-

38:57 Speaker 3 That part of that body or that part of the neshamah?

38:59 Speaker 1 Both. B-

39:00 Speaker 3 Both.

39:00 Speaker 1 No, no, no. One neshamah, right, of many gilgulim, but then that part of the body... So, so Yankel-

39:05 Speaker 3 So the body can be-

39:05 Speaker 1 Yankel was, you know, taking the right ear. So Yankel's right ear is gonna be resurrected in Tchiya HaMesim-

39:10 Speaker 3 Interesting

39:10 Speaker 1 ... but it's gonna be with, uh-

39:11 Speaker 3 Interesting

39:11 Speaker 1 ... uh, Elchanan's left ear. Yeah, yeah.

39:15 Speaker 3 So we're not coming back full-

39:16 Speaker 1 All in pieces

39:17 Speaker 3 ... is what you're saying. Come back in pieces.

39:18 Speaker 1 That's an opinion of Rebbe Yis-- Rebbe Yisroel of Berditchev.

39:20 Speaker 3 That sounds like a movie ready to it sounds like a script.

39:24 Speaker 1 I think most people, when they first hear about it, will think more of like a, it's more of a zombie scene than-

39:28 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying

39:28 Speaker 1 ... a soul. Yeah, yeah.

39:29 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying.

39:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:30 Speaker 3 Huh.

39:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's another one of those weird, uh, Midrash Tanchumas that scares the kids, right? Maybe.

39:36 Speaker 3 By the way, Tchiya HaMesim is like, is, is one of these subjects that's, that's like so, so, um, like child-proofed. Uh, like it-

39:47 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

39:47 Speaker 3 ... it's like made so family-friendly-

39:49 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

39:50 Speaker 3 ... that it's almost become silly.

39:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:52 Speaker 3 Like, everyone thinks that Tchiya HaMesim is like their favorite bubbe is coming back.

39:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:56 Speaker 3 And it's like, yeah, that's part of it, but-

39:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

39:59 Speaker 3 ... not the whole story. Like, like how are you gonna deal with the fact that, like, you have everybody back?

40:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:05 Speaker 3 And like, what's that gonna mean? Like I was talking about earlier, what's it gonna mean that, like, there's no end to any of this?

40:11 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

40:12 Speaker 3 And like, we don't even go there.

40:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:14 Speaker 3 We don't go there. You know, the guy that I'm upset that passed away, he's gonna be back.

40:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:19 Speaker 3 And it's like, okay, like, yeah, whatever. I mean, I... It's just, it, it's relevant to this theme. It's the, it's this, um, uh, gravitating-

40:34 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:34 Speaker 3 ... towards, towards the ever elusive.

40:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

40:39 Speaker 3 And I mean, if, if we, if we build it out a little bit also, it's... To me, this is like, in a way, the, the core tension of, of the, the Chasidus project or the Lubavitch project-

40:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:55 Speaker 3 ... which is how do you build something stable-

40:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:57 Speaker 3 ... that's inherently unstable?

40:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:00 Speaker 3 I mean, I'm, I'm sure you know the physics language of this much better than I do, but like you're taking a property which is inherently unstable. That's the whole point, right? Like-

41:09 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:09 Speaker 3 ... but you're still, you still, you have to as- you have to adopt certain hierarchies. You have to-

41:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:14 Speaker 3 ... adopt certain customs.

41:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:16 Speaker 3 How do you have both, and how do you, how do you, you know, how do you, h-how do you institute there are minhagim and there are protocols without becoming that dreaded...

41:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is a solution. Thank God I don't have to come up with the whole thing for the whole community. Um-

41:37 Speaker 3 What's that? What, what is the solution?

41:39 Speaker 1 Um, no, I'm, I mean, I'm assuming. I'm, I'm making a big assumption that there is a solution, you know. The Rebbe, the Rebbe made a community, right? Um, the details of that community and how it works, um, are the subject of many discussions on this podcast, and, uh, I frankly, number one, don't know much about it, and number two, don't care that much.

41:59 Speaker 3 Okay. I'm not talking about the Gesher community.

42:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:01 Speaker 3 I'm not talking about a specific community.

42:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:03 Speaker 3 I'm talking about in your own life, let's say. Uh, in your own life, how do you, how do you... Like, are you forever going to... Like, you can't, or maybe you can. Are you always going to be an outsider railing against the system? Like, at some point, it's like, w-well, I mean, does that become the system itself? Like-

42:22 Speaker 1 Yeah

42:23 Speaker 3 ... just because like, you know, you, you'll see like these washed-out boomers who-

42:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

42:28 Speaker 3 ... you know,

42:29 Speaker 1 Against the system. Rebels, yeah.

42:31 Speaker 3 You know, rage, rage against the machine, and it's like, sorry to break it to you, you kind of are the machine.

42:35 Speaker 1 Are the machine. Yeah. I'm, I'm not so worried about that happening in my case, at least not yet, but, um-

42:41 Speaker 3 But you understand what I'm asking

42:41 Speaker 1 ... I understand totally what you mean at a personal level as well, for sure. Um, I mean, the answer is, is that, is that somehow, somehow you have to trust yourself to the deepest and most profound level, and at the same time, you also have to question yourself at every step.

43:11 Speaker 3 Ah, there we go

43:13 Speaker 1 I don't know how you do both of these things at the same time exactly, but somehow it's both. It's very interesting because, um, I tend, or at least my tendency in the past, I have some friends who are helping me with this tendency, but my tendency in the past was to be extremely, um, full of self-doubt in general.

43:33 Speaker 3 To err on the side of doubt.

43:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of the things that I now talk about are things that I usually felt and thought for a long time, but, um, it's not even in a particular-

43:48 Speaker 3 What was it, what was the doubt, that you didn't understand what you were talking about?

43:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:51 Speaker 3 Or that, or that-

43:51 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:51 Speaker 3 ... or that your bi- you were too biased?

43:54 Speaker 1 Both.

43:54 Speaker 3 Both?

43:55 Speaker 1 Both. Number one, too biased in favor of myself and telling myself the satisfying thing that-

44:00 Speaker 3 Right

44:00 Speaker 1 ... would satisfy my own, uh, issues. And number two, um, very, very, um, alarmed at how I didn't see what I saw, what, the way I saw things out around me in the-

44:14 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

44:14 Speaker 1 ... in the community and the people that gave me everything that I have. It's very interesting, isn't it? It's very hard. It's almost like, it's almost the same question as, um, how can a child become independent from a parent in a way, no?

44:28 Speaker 3 Right.

44:28 Speaker 1 In the sense that, um, if you were really, really honest, you would realize that literally everything you have comes from your parents, and you would have died when you were one years old.

44:36 Speaker 3 I see. I see. You're asking yourself-

44:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

44:38 Speaker 3 ... if I have a question with this, with this main body of, of-

44:42 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:42 Speaker 3 ... of the Chabad community-

44:43 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:44 Speaker 3 ... then either, either I'm wrong-

44:48 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:48 Speaker 3 ... or they're wrong, and if they're, uh, if I'm wrong, then I have a problem because I don't like what they're d-

44:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:54 Speaker 3 I think, I think they're wrong.

44:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:55 Speaker 3 And if they're wrong, then who's right?

44:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:58 Speaker 3 That's your-

44:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. Basically. Yeah

44:59 Speaker 3 ... I may as well go on my own.

45:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Um, and now, um, so the question-

45:06 Speaker 3 And, and, and you came to the conclusion that you're right. That they are wrong.

45:11 Speaker 1 In many, in, in, in many cases. Not that they're necessarily wrong „beChlal," because again, I can't speak to the Chlal usually-

45:18 Speaker 3 Right

45:19 Speaker 1 ... as a rule. The Chlal chewed me up and spat me out. I'm more, um, I'm more concerned about myself. Are they right about me, for me-

45:27 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

45:27 Speaker 1 ... is really the question. And I, I was very, very, in my years in yeshiva, which we didn't get to in my personal narrative, which I'm grateful for, by the way.

45:35 Speaker 3 Would you like to get to it?

45:35 Speaker 1 If you want. The, um-

45:37 Speaker 3 You're grateful that we didn't get to it, or you're grateful for your years in yeshiva?

45:40 Speaker 1 Both. I'm just kidding because I'm, I'm just joking 'cause I don't, uh, um, just joking about, um, talking about myself and things like that, which is inherently a little uncomfortable, but not too bad. The, um, the, the... For many, many years, I was... W- I worked very, very hard to be a mekabel in the best sense of the word, and I really was, and I exerted a lot of effort to do that. I was. I, I, I, I, um-

46:11 Speaker 3 Which yeshiva was this?

46:12 Speaker 1 Multiple. Multiple. I started, I went to Maayanot first for two years. Then I went to Tomchei in Morristown. Um, then I went on shlichus to Tel Aviv, yeshiva shlichus. Then I came back and did semikhah in Morristown. I was in yeshiva for a few years.

46:27 Speaker 3 So who was, who was the figure that you were, like, mekabel from? Or is it a number of people?

46:30 Speaker 1 Uh, many, many people all over.

46:32 Speaker 3 But when you say you exerted yourself to be mekabel, it's-

46:34 Speaker 1 Everyone

46:35 Speaker 3 ... from-

46:35 Speaker 1 Everyone. From, both from, actually, both from, which maybe this was part of the mistake, by the way. Maybe I would do this differently in retrospect. But both from, um, uh, teachers and also from everyone around me as well. I was mekabel from learning how to be a Lubavitcher, learning how to be a, a yeshiva bachur, right? From other bachurim. What does this community mean? And I, uh, I, I was in full immersion, full immersion mode in the best sense, I think, of the term, you know?

47:03 Speaker 3 Sure.

47:04 Speaker 1 I, um, I was ready to go all the way, all the way in. I wanted, I wanted everything. I wanted everything that everyone else, uh, had. I wanted to be conversant with and unmista-- and, and, um, um, interchangeable with a Lubavitch from, from birth bachur, which, uh, because I was in Maayanot so young, I had an opportunity to do in a way that a lot of my fellow, uh, students at the Mir yeshiva didn't have the opportunity to do.

47:29 Speaker 3 Right.

47:30 Speaker 1 Um-

47:31 Speaker 3 And you probably could have done if you had stuck with it.

47:34 Speaker 1 To this day, there's people who sometimes mistake me for a, uh, not knowing me well, you know? But, but in just a s- in a social situation-

47:42 Speaker 3 Right

47:42 Speaker 1 ... I'm a passing bachur, as it were.

47:45 Speaker 3 Right.

47:45 Speaker 1 Um, but the, the, um... So I was mekabel from everyone. I was, I was learning a lot. Um, and at some point, there was some kind of crisis, which is an interesting discussion. And then after that, it became a reverse gear where, where I realized in the end that there's something that I'm looking for, and there's something that I was looking for since I was a kid going to Chabad house. Even before that, when I was a kid reading little Midrash Says and wandering around and playing with sticks. Um, and there's something that I'm looking for, and basically, either I have to commit to that something that I'm looking for to the end-

48:30 Speaker 3 Right

48:30 Speaker 1 ... no matter what it costs, um, or I have to let that go and try and build structures and make something out of this. And I, I chose the former, and there's something that I'm looking for, and, um, I basically had to decide that I'm going to go through, you know, uh, I'm gonna have to go through the entire population of Crown Heights, the population of every yeshiva, every rabbi that I know, you know, all five boroughs of New York and some very, very strange people on the internet, and I'm gonna go... I, I'm, I'm looking for what I'm looking for, and I'm willing to go through all of them to find it. And that's basically the commitment. That's, that's what I'm... That's my project.

49:11 Speaker 3 So ba- so basically, if I understand correctly-

49:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

49:14 Speaker 3 ... it's, it's an openness to learning-

49:17 Speaker 1 Yeah

49:17 Speaker 3 ... but not, not, like, free-floating, where whatever comes my way, there's a, there, there's a question that I have.

49:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

49:25 Speaker 3 And there's my history.

49:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

49:28 Speaker 3 Yeah. Are you familiar with the Rashom about the needle on the mikveh step?

49:32 Speaker 1 I've heard it. I don't remember what it says.

49:33 Speaker 3 So it's, uh, the, the Mishnah that people say by, by Reish Lakish.

49:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

49:37 Speaker 3 "Mah shishur hamah asamar." And I don't remember all the details. It's a beautiful Rashom where Reish Lakish speaks about how the machat refers to a, a tayid. There's a, a whole thing about, you know, uh, it's mechaber the... A needle is mechaber two pieces of cloth.

49:53 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

49:53 Speaker 3 It's mechaber the heavens with the earth, or elyon v'sakhon. But the gist of it is that a machat also is, has a point.

50:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:00 Speaker 3 It's, it's pointy. It has a, it has a, it has an edge to it.

50:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:03 Speaker 3 That's the Jew.

50:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:05 Speaker 3 Now, the Jew, in this case, has a little bit too much edge to him, and so it's tamei.

50:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:10 Speaker 3 "Hayyom atayid".

50:13 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

50:14 Speaker 3 So, uh, drop it in the mikvah, and g-good luck, uh, well, you're not gonna, you're not gonna find it.

50:19 Speaker 1 Right.

50:19 Speaker 3 So you gotta put on the step.

50:21 Speaker 1 Right.

50:21 Speaker 3 And then you have to-

50:23 Speaker 1 Wave the water

50:24 Speaker 3 ... "Hayim elokim, hayim elokim mei v'samayim," right? You have to bring the water, I think he ties that up as Aven Gir, I don't remember. But like, you, you, you splash the water. You don't throw it into the water. It's-- it retains its identity here on the step. You, you bring the water, "Ki v'sha'av ala, ala ga'at ahira," right?

50:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

50:43 Speaker 3 Like, once, once that, once that, uh, wave of inspiration or whatever, um, you know, covers, covers him, then he becomes tar. And I think that's a beautiful idea, what you're talking about here, and I think it's, I think it's a crucial idea, which is, you know, the, you know, the question of, of yeshus or, or bittel-

51:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

51:05 Speaker 3 ... th-the, the two sides of the same coin really is-

51:08 Speaker 1 Yeah

51:08 Speaker 3 ... how do you, how do you proceed? How do you, how do you, how do you... Or how do you hold together the fact that you are a person with a story, with individuality, with your own things, together with not, not getting-

51:26 Speaker 1 Yeah

51:26 Speaker 3 ... caught up in that?

51:28 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

51:29 Speaker 3 Right? And, and that's really in a way, like, the question.

51:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:33 Speaker 3 Es-especially if you're gonna talk about identity, and that is a question.

51:38 Speaker 1 Uh, the thing is, is that I, I-- maybe I can't explain, maybe you're... You've spoken to so many people, maybe you explain it better than I can, but paradoxically, the more, the more I decided that I'm looking for what I'm looking for, and I literally don't care, I'm just gonna go right through whatever, uh, anyone that gets in my way, long story short, the more I did that, the more of a fanatical Lovitcher and a fanatical Jew I feel I've become, frankly.

52:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, it, it ma- it makes sense. It makes sense because, because in a, in a way, you are, you are taking on the paradox head on.

52:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:15 Speaker 3 And so there, there are no more easy answers. There are no, there are no more easy answers, right? The, the-- that's-- that... By, by, by pushing the, the, the contradiction to its-

52:26 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:27 Speaker 3 ... to its, to its fullest kind of opposition-

52:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

52:30 Speaker 3 ... you are forced to, you are forced to come to something new. You know, like our, like our, like our favorite cousins, uh, you know, in the mor- you know, with their dialectics like to say.

52:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

52:41 Speaker 3 You know, but no, but I, I don't mean to be silly, like, there's... Like, like, at, at some point, you're, you're, you're-- I, I, I, I, I make videos for a living, right? A lot of times people come-- will call me up, and they're like, "We have this campaign, but there's this kind of elephant in the room question, and how do we deal with it?" And sometimes one way to deal with it is, "Okay, let's, let's kind of avoid the question, and let's come to..."

53:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:02 Speaker 3 But sometimes they're like, "No, you gotta, you gotta deal with the question."

53:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:06 Speaker 3 And that's how you get... And, and you're gonna, and you're gonna come up with something powerful as a result because you're dealing with the question.

53:13 Speaker 1 I, I feel like, in a way, despite my, um, uh, whatever you might call it, my oppositional burn everything down trappings, which I don't think are so, uh, necessarily pervasive. I hope, I hope that that's not how I necessarily come across. Maybe just at very, very first, uh, first glance, but the, the-

53:34 Speaker 3 No, I, I, I didn't mean it that way when I introduced you.

53:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:36 Speaker 3 I, I mean that you, you have-- you, you, you don't have any kind of awe of, of the modern world.

53:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:44 Speaker 3 That's what I meant.

53:46 Speaker 1 No, the modern world is good. That's a good thing not to have awe of, I think.

53:49 Speaker 3 Modernism, I meant.

53:50 Speaker 1 Also, very true. Um, but I, I feel like the, the, the type of question that I deeply and profoundly believe that Hasidus is an answer to and the Rebbe is an answer to is, um... I feel that I give it more respect in a way by asking the question to the deepest and most painful and most open and vulnerable and crazy extent.

54:24 Speaker 3 Yes.

54:25 Speaker 1 You have to make a, a, a leap to a certain extent, but I, I, I don't think I've ever failed to be caught after the leap. I don't think I've-- I don't think, I don't think, um... There's very, very few questions that you could really pose to this way of life as it truly is, as a, as a, as an Inyan Elokei, as an Inyan Ruchni, even in Sechel, um, that it can't handle. There's no, there's no... The, the, you know, the Alter Rebbe, et cetera, they've, they've, they've got us. They're good. They, they can handle it. They can handle the questions.

55:04 Speaker 3 Yes.

55:05 Speaker 1 And the questions that-- the question that brings the person to knock on Alter Rebbe's door, which is, of course, the implicit thing that's missing from the Tanya, right? 'Cause the Tanya is a... The Tanya is not a polemical work 'cause Alter Rebbe does-- is not trying to convince you of anything, right? Alter Rebbe doesn't prove anything. It's not like, uh, it's not like the Kuzari or the, or Moreh Nevuchim, or any, or any, or Hakirah, or a Sefer like that. It's not even like a Mussar Sefer in that the, the Psukim and stuff are not like, um, they're not always Rayes in the, in the-

55:37 Speaker 3 Right

55:37 Speaker 1 ... obvious sense, right?

55:39 Speaker 3 Right.

55:40 Speaker 1 Um, Alter Rebbe doesn't have to prove anything to you because you came with the question, right?

55:46 Speaker 3 Ah, interesting.

55:47 Speaker 1 He doesn't have to, he doesn't have to convince you-

55:48 Speaker 3 Does it resonate or not is, is a proof.

55:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. In other words, he doesn't have to convince you to, to take his advi- You knocked on my door.

55:55 Speaker 3 Right.

55:55 Speaker 1 In other... Right?

55:56 Speaker 3 Fascinating.

55:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's not, it's not, it's not here to convince you of anything. So, so the implicit question that brings you to knock on Alter Rebbe's door, I feel, can be... We can make it so much more tif. We can go-- There's no limit. There's no limit to the depths of, of Of, uh, that question. The, the Alter Rebbe is so real. The Alter Rebbe is so, so ready to answer whatever that question may be, and I think we're, we're, we're hesitant to, we're hesitant to be honest about just how many things we don't believe and how many q- problems we have and how many q- uh, uh, issues we have you can bring to the Alter Rebbe. And Hasidism is... It's like-

56:39 Speaker 3 Hear, hear.

56:40 Speaker 1 Hasidism is the most radical, the most radical, uprooting, crazy, profound, deep, um, system of thought in the world.

56:53 Speaker 3 I saw you wrote that recently. What, what did you mean by that? Uh, you meant that as hyperbole? You, you-

56:58 Speaker 1 No, no. Um-

56:59 Speaker 3 What, what makes it, what makes it more radical than other forms of mysticism or even in Yiddishkeit itself, Kabbalistic works or...?

57:09 Speaker 1 Uh, that's a good question.

57:11 Speaker 3 I mean, what did you mean by it?

57:12 Speaker 1 What I meant, what I meant is that there is nothing that the Alter Rebbe does not lift up, transform, and turn over. There's nothing left. There's nothing left untouched by the Alter Rebbe.

57:24 Speaker 3 Right.

57:25 Speaker 1 Which, which is what really radical is, uh, is from a, um, a Greek root, which means from the root. That's really what radical means.

57:31 Speaker 3 Ah, interesting. Interesting.

57:31 Speaker 1 The Alter Rebbe uproots everything. There's no-

57:34 Speaker 3 Tzimtzum like Tzimtzum-

57:35 Speaker 1 Tzimtzum like the Shootei. And, and, and, and at every level in Avoda, uh, um, uh, uh, uh, aesthetically, intellectually, at every, at every imaginable level-

57:46 Speaker 3 Right

57:46 Speaker 1 ... Hasidus Chabad is totally, is totally transformative.

57:51 Speaker 3 Right.

57:51 Speaker 1 Um-

57:51 Speaker 3 It's a totalizing system.

57:53 Speaker 1 It is a... The, the most totalizing system imaginable.

57:56 Speaker 3 Yes.

57:57 Speaker 1 And every part depends on every other part. It's also the-

58:00 Speaker 3 Yes

58:00 Speaker 1 ... most elegant and systematized system imaginable, which is why you can't really, um, pick and choose, and you can't make a mishmash, and you can't throw in random things into that, that sound like Hasidus, that seem to fit with Hasidus because you're, you're not giving it the respect it des- You don't understand the Alter Rebbe's project. The Alter Rebbe's project was, was, was holistic to, to an, an insane, unbelievable degree that no one made a total world philosophy like the Alter Rebbe maybe since the times of the ancient Greeks, l'havdil, maybe even before. There's no... The, the, the c- and, and compared to other things in Yiddishkeit as well, totally, totally different. Totally different. The Alter Rebbe-

58:37 Speaker 3 Right, you're with Tachtonim. The, it, it's Ereshed Nesav at the top-

58:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

58:41 Speaker 3 ... and then all the way to Tachtonim-

58:43 Speaker 1 Yeah

58:43 Speaker 3 ... and like, and like that's it. Like there's-

58:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

58:45 Speaker 3 ... there's no, there's no, there's no, there's nothing left on the margins.

58:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. The thing is, is that, the thing is, is, is Kabbalah is the closest, but still not, still not the same 'cause in Kabbalah, Kabbalah is still, is still talking about objective realities fundamentally.

59:03 Speaker 3 Right.

59:03 Speaker 1 Hasidus is crazy enough to say that you, the Jew-

59:08 Speaker 3 Right

59:08 Speaker 1 ... are before all the objective reality. This is, this is taking place in a sense inside your head, really more properly inside your neshamah.

59:15 Speaker 3 Kabbalah doesn't believe that?

59:16 Speaker 1 Kabbalah does believe that, and in fact, uh, Peshat and Chumash believes that, but they believe it because Hasidus, uh, says it, yes.

59:22 Speaker 3 Ah, interesting. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World Is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at UVLA Media, inspired by Vasili Gani, the first mimer, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Vasili Gani is something that we think about and talk about a lot, and in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by String Quartet to bring the beauty of Vasili Gani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad Houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for String Quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the String Quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show.

1:00:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:26 Speaker 3 I, I, I feel like, I mean, I'm not enough of an expert on Kabbalah to know the-

1:00:30 Speaker 1 The truth is neither am I, so maybe I'm... Who knows what I'm saying here?

1:00:34 Speaker 3 Okay, fair. Um, but I feel like, I feel like, I feel like even, uh, 'cause I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure s- people that know about, know about this could debate either way.

1:00:45 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:00:45 Speaker 3 It's a very fine... Like, where, where does Kabbalah end and Hasidus continue?

1:00:49 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:00:49 Speaker 3 Like, where is that line exactly? So much of Hasidus is Kabbalah or based-

1:00:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:00:53 Speaker 3 ... on Kabbalah.

1:00:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:54 Speaker 3 And the, like you said, a lot of Kabbalah can now be reread through the lens of Hasidus.

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:00:58 Speaker 3 So, like, how are you gonna ever separate? What Ka-

1:01:00 Speaker 1 True

1:01:00 Speaker 3 ... what would a Kabbalah look like if not for Hasidus, and so on?

1:01:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:04 Speaker 3 I feel like, though, to me, the obvious, the obvious line of demarcation is look at the cultures and communities that they have-

1:01:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Absolutely

1:01:14 Speaker 3 ... resulted in, right?

1:01:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:01:16 Speaker 3 First of all, there is no such thing as a community of Kabbalists.

1:01:19 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:01:19 Speaker 3 I mean, yes, in history, there was a cadre of Kabbalists in Tzfat or... And, but that's a whole thing. They're, they, they're to themselves, they're hidden, they're exclusive, not necessarily because they look down on... Not 'cause they're elitist-

1:01:32 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:01:32 Speaker 3 ... but simply because you have to be of that kind of caliber-

1:01:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:01:37 Speaker 3 ... to participate.

1:01:38 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:01:39 Speaker 3 Right? And, and Hasidus was like, "Heck no." Like, this is everyone.

1:01:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:01:44 Speaker 3 Right? And, and I think, like, that is the obvious... I mean, uh, whatever you're gonna say about, like, the theoretical li- theoretical distinctions, like the pract... And, and, and I think it's not to say, like, a historical thought experiment. Like, I think this is a very relevant question I had with someone else recently. Um, I sa- I had it with Joey Rosenfeld, who, who had ta- who looks at Hasidus through a more Kabbalistic lens-

1:02:07 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:02:07 Speaker 3 ... which is, you know, his argument, um, his argument was that- You know, the, from that Chassidus or Lubavitch particularly became too, like, became in a way, like, too totalizing-

1:02:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:02:23 Speaker 3 Or like we've figured out everything too much.

1:02:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:02:25 Speaker 3 We're like, we have, we have it all figured out.

1:02:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:28 Speaker 3 And I, I think there's validity to that critique.

1:02:31 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Sure.

1:02:31 Speaker 3 I think it's, I think it's-- I mean, it's one that I have felt often and made as well, so at least I think there's validity to it.

1:02:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:39 Speaker 3 But my question to him was, okay, let's say you didn't have that. Would you have been able to survive communism with a more nuanced-

1:02:47 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:02:48 Speaker 3 El- you know, uh-

1:02:50 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:02:50 Speaker 3 Like abstract... I don't know the word abstract, but like, you know, elevate. Sometimes you need... Like, my point is that the, like, there, there, there's, there's a culture as well where the f- where the, where the, where the kind of kishkas of the, of the the- of the theology, for lack of a better word, expresses itself, and you learn a lot about it there.

1:03:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:12 Speaker 3 Like Lubavitch made soldiers.

1:03:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:15 Speaker 3 It did.

1:03:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:16 Speaker 3 It made-- Like, that's a real thing.

1:03:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:18 Speaker 3 I... The c-- The separation of culture from ideas-

1:03:21 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:03:21 Speaker 3 ... is, is, is, is not a re-- is not correct, in my opinion.

1:03:26 Speaker 1 I agree. Um, and I'll just say that I agree that they're totally inseparable. I will say that, that, um, all my opinions on these matters are completely biased and always have been, because for me, there is not, there, there was never really a choice of being anything else other than a Lubavitcher, and there really still isn't, even though, whatever, what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? But, but in terms of, in terms of intellectually, um-

1:04:02 Speaker 3 Right

1:04:02 Speaker 1 ... in terms of Chassidus, I've been a Lubavitcher since I was born. There's no... For me, for me, believing in God was more of a question, and it wasn't that much of a question for me, to be honest. It was more of a question for me than the question of, is the Lubavitcher Rebbe's way of seeing Torah correct? To me, that was, that was, um, muvan meha love. The-- I've never had a question about that.

1:04:24 Speaker 3 So I do wanna ask you about that-

1:04:26 Speaker 1 Sure

1:04:26 Speaker 3 ... because there's something that comes out in your writ- in your writing, if anybody spends any time f-following you on X or going through your posts. There's like, there's a kind of fervent, what other word, belief or loyalty to the Rebbe that would make you sound like you- Like you, like you sat in the mikvah in Detroit for eight years- ... and marinated there or the cool and... You know what I mean? Like-

1:04:52 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:04:53 Speaker 3 It's almost like you're, you're painting this picture, which is believable to me, of being this kind of, "I am who I am. I have my questions. I'm sorting through it on my own, on my own terms. Everybody else be damned." And then, like, when it comes to the Rebbe, you talk almost like, you'll forgive me, almost like a hack. Like, the Rebbe's off limits.

1:05:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:11 Speaker 3 He's... You're like, "The, that guy." There's like-

1:05:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:15 Speaker 3 And, and I know there's gotta be something there. It's gotta be like, well, what's, what's the... Like, why, why, why do you think-- I mean, or may- or maybe you feel like it's just, it's n- it's beyond question. Why, well, why... Do you think about why the Rebbe is so, like... You didn't even meet the Rebbe.

1:05:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:35 Speaker 3 And, and, like, why are you s-- What do-- where do you get this? I'm not asking why. It's not s-- Uh, you don't have to, you don't have to defend yourself, but where do you get this kind of like, like, the Rebbe's just the boss?

1:05:51 Speaker 1 I don't know is the-

1:05:52 Speaker 3 But I, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm not inaccurate in my-

1:05:55 Speaker 1 No

1:05:55 Speaker 3 ... in my own assessment.

1:05:56 Speaker 1 No, you're accurate. Um, in my own very idiosyncratic way, I feel. In other words, I don't know, when people talk about their relationships with the Rebbe, uh, I, I don't know. It, it... First of all, it often makes me uncomfortable. Um-

1:06:15 Speaker 3 Why is that?

1:06:16 Speaker 1 Um, because I think, uh, um, a lot of the relationship with one's Rebbe is fundamentally a very intimate thing that in Lubavitch sometimes becomes like a public sport of its, of a kind.

1:06:30 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:06:31 Speaker 1 Um, but, but even aside from that, you know, my connection is, is, is-- began as intellectual. Well, that's probably not true. It began in the neshamah, and then for a while it was intellectual, and then it came back to a neshamah connection in some way.

1:06:50 Speaker 3 But on a conscious level, it became-

1:06:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:06:52 Speaker 3 ... began as intellectual.

1:06:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, it's intellectual. And what it really started as, this is how they get you, what it really started as was, uh, was, uh, uh, provisional in the sense of, in the sense of, okay, this is the Yiddishkeit I'm encountering that sounds interesting to me. Around here in Atlanta, this was like really the only game in town, for me anyway, that I would consider. It wasn't actually, by the way, not, not papale. There was other game in town, but the, the, the-- those other games were so, um, up gefickt in one way or another that, um, the only thing I was gonna do was, "Okay, so let's see what this Rebbe has to say, and I'm gonna try it out and see if I like what he has to say." And in a sense, I'm still just, uh, trying it out and seeing if I like what he has to say. It's just become that I've so far, um, found so much depth and so much profundity and so much... And this is at a purely intellectual level, right? I feel weird even talking about it because in a way it's very grub. But the, the... It feels grub anyway. The, um, the, the, the intellectual profundity and the all-embracing worldview combined with the Avos Yisroel is something you don't find anywhere else. It's really just that simple. Um, the problem was, is that anyone who would really be real competition came too late. So I'm already completely biased, and I've been provisional on one,

1:08:17 Speaker 1 uh, track for too long maybe. But the truth is, is that, is that, like I said, there was no point in this journey at which the question of whether the Rebbe's way of seeing Yiddishkeit was ever a question for me. Um, and I don't, I, I, I don't a hundred percent know why

1:08:34 Speaker 3 Do you feel, do you feel that that somehow undermines your, your claim of, of being not, not, not, uh, open-- I don't think you claim to be open-minded, but you claim to be subjective and-

1:08:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:08:45 Speaker 3 ... and real with yourself. Does this, does this undermine it?

1:08:48 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't think so because the truth is, is that, is that a Bachur, uh, I was talking to a Bachur, okay? There was a, there was a Bachur who went away for gap year, Shana Alef, as they call it, in, uh, in Israel at a, at a pretty modern Orthodox yeshiva from our community here.

1:09:05 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:09:05 Speaker 1 And he came back, and he wanted for the summer before college, and he wanted to, um, learn some Torah when we were here. So we were learning, we learned a little bit of Hasidus.

1:09:13 Speaker 3 This is recently?

1:09:14 Speaker 1 Recently. A year ago, probably.

1:09:16 Speaker 3 Oh, so, so Bachur much younger than you?

1:09:17 Speaker 1 Much younger than me.

1:09:18 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:09:18 Speaker 1 We were learning, we, we were learning a little bit of Hasidus in the summer break 'cause he likes Chabad, and he likes Hasidut. And, um, but then it turned out that really the learning was just a pretext to ask lots of questions, which was great. So he really wanted to, he really wanted to farbrengen, so the learning was just a pretext, although we did learn some, uh, Michamerchas, the Rabbi Ma'aras, which is, like, the best. But we, we, uh, we, we got into long discussions about Rebbe and Chabad and, um, he, I think, batumos ha-nefesh is more modern Orthodox, uh, a terminal case of Yamach Zemach. No, I'm joking. The, um, the, the-

1:09:57 Speaker 3 Leave it, leave it at that.

1:09:59 Speaker 1 But no, I'm just kidding. But the, the, the-- it was beautiful. We learned, and we had a discussion. So he asked me, he asked me, "Why have a Rebbe? Why not have a personal connection with God?" And it was being asked that question, which is not such a profound question maybe in a way, I don't know. For some reason, that question just, like, clicked it into place, like, in an instant. I knew exactly what the answer was to the question. I hadn't thought about it. I hadn't prepared myself. I'm, I'm not-- I don't see myself as a Rebbe rah-rah person, so it's quite funny that, that from the outside, maybe I do come off that way a little bit. But the, um, the, the, the answer immediately clicked into place, and the answer is: Why do you need a Rebbe? To-- Why haven't-- do you need a Rebbe? Why can't you have a personal relationship with God? I told him, "Genius, you grew up in this Chabad house. Your personal relationship with God was given to you by the Rebbe.

1:10:46 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:46 Speaker 1 Why do you even think you can have a personal relationship with-- Where does that concept even come from? You think in Vilna two hundred and fifty years ago, they had a concept of a personal relationship with God? The entire concept was given to you on a platter.

1:10:57 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:10:57 Speaker 1 You don't even know where it comes from. You don't even know where this idea comes from. It's the Rebbe that-- The truth is, now we start getting to the radicalism. The, the, the, the Rebbe is also not a great and terrible objectivity, is the Rebbe is also inside.

1:11:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:11:10 Speaker 1 That's the answer to the question.

1:11:12 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:11:12 Speaker 1 The answer to the question is that the Rebbe is not an external imposition, and he never, for me, he never was. So the personal relationship with God, the thing that I'm looking for, the Rebbe was there at every step. It's not like the Rebbe's waiting at the end. It's not like the Rebbe's waiting when all the questions are answered, right?

1:11:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 It's the Rebbe was there all along. The Rebbe's closer to you than you are to yourself. That's the answer to the que-- That's the obvious answer to the question, is Rebbe's always been here, if you really, really believe in what a Rebbe is and the description of the Rebbe. The Rebbe's always been here. The Rebbe's your own Nefesh Elokei. The Rebbe's inside you. This whole idea that there's a person that you go to, that's also very, very important and, you know, of course, the Ibish there sense that Tzadikim into the world, as it says in Tanya, right? As the, as the, to give us any chance whatsoever of having any Shai chast Elokei in this dark and, uh, and low and lowly, uh, world full of klipos and sitra achra. But, um, for me, the Rebbe was always on the inside. The Rebbe is your personal relationship with God. It's the Re-- It's-- The Rebbe is the, the refraction, the, the person-- my personal relationship with God, the thing that I'm looking for, and the willingness to get out of bed and go and look for it is, is refracted through the Rebbe at every step. It's the Rebbe who told, the Rebbe who told you that you can, and the Rebbe told you that you must, and the Rebbe who, who, who in his, in what, in who he was in, in, in, in, as I sometimes joke with one of the engineers who goes to our Chabad house, by proving that an engineer

1:12:33 Speaker 1 can believe in God, right? The Rebbe, the Rebbe is, is, is, is, is he-- The Rebbe is inside you. That's the Inyan.

1:12:43 Speaker 3 But why this Rebbe and not, uh, a-another Rebbe or, like, another Lubavitch Rebbe or another Tzadik? I mean, you, you didn't meet him, right? So it, it, the, the Rebbe, the way you're describing him is not just an idea, a Madrega.

1:12:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:12:57 Speaker 3 You're talking about a person.

1:12:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:12:59 Speaker 3 And one, one of the things that comes through in your writing is not so much like rah-rah Rebbe stuff. I think, I think that's... I, I was being silly before about sitting in the mikvah, you know. It's more... It almost like t-t-to... The way I've always read your stuff is that I know a lot about math and science and physics and the modern world and how impressive it is. It doesn't hold a candle to this-

1:13:22 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:13:22 Speaker 3 To what, to what the Rebbe says.

1:13:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:24 Speaker 3 Like, you could, you could throw anything you want at me, it's not gonna-

1:13:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:13:27 Speaker 3 ... make me budge on this.

1:13:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:13:29 Speaker 3 Right? So i-it's almost like the Rebbe's like f-- it seems like for you, like a kind of like a-an ultimate bulwar- bulwark-

1:13:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:13:38 Speaker 3 ... t-like against, against modernism or whatever, uh, whatever, whatever, whatever-

1:13:44 Speaker 1 Whatever name you wanna give it.

1:13:45 Speaker 3 Yeah, like nihilism is maybe-

1:13:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:13:47 Speaker 3 ... the word.

1:13:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:13:47 Speaker 3 Like modern nihilism. And it's like, "Oh, h-here, here's my answer to, to it."

1:13:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:13:54 Speaker 3 Like why or where do you get this? Like, is, is it in the, in the personal example of the Rebbe? Is it in his ideas? Is it in the spiritual thing of a Rebbe? Like what is-- 'Cause I, I... The reason I'm asking is you never met him.

1:14:11 Speaker 1 No.

1:14:12 Speaker 3 And you're talking in a very, on a very personal level.

1:14:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:14:16 Speaker 3 So is it, is it, is it the stories about him?

1:14:21 Speaker 1 The stories, the stories are wonderful, and the stories are beautiful, and the stories have been illuminating and, and a help. Um, but it's really in Sichas is the answer.

1:14:32 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:14:32 Speaker 1 Sichas and some letters, but it's really in Sichas. I don't know how. I don't, I don't know what the magic... If I knew what the magic translation was that made the Sicha into that for me, I could try and help and give it to others. But all I can tell people to do is learn Sichas, and it doesn't work.

1:14:47 Speaker 3 That's what it does for you.

1:14:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. It's a disappointment, actually. It's very, very difficult. It's very difficult to, to, to give something that you find so unique and so precious, and, um, other people just can't see it, um, can be very difficult.

1:15:04 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:15:04 Speaker 1 Which is so funny, right? Because, um, Likutey Sichos is a, is started as a mitzvat aid in a way, right?

1:15:11 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:11 Speaker 1 Since Likutey Sichos began as something for Lubavitchers to tell non-Lubavitchers in a way, right?

1:15:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:15 Speaker 1 What's the Rebbe saying? The Rebbe said something this week about the Parsha. Tell me something the Rebbe is saying.

1:15:19 Speaker 3 Yeah, the first volumes I think were called something like for, for something for Alfos Sichos or something.

1:15:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the irony, the irony is, is I'm using it all wrong, right? So I'm, I'm getting, um, I'm getting, uh, uh, what's the word? Um-

1:15:32 Speaker 3 Why, why are you less valuable than the guy in the Litvisher shul?

1:15:36 Speaker 1 That's also true, but it's not just, it's not just, um, whether he's more valuable than me, it's that I'm, um, uh, what's the word? Um, I'm jealous, right? I, I, I, I... In a way, in a way, it's so precious that in a way I, I don't wanna give it on mitzvot because it's not gonna strike them in the same way, and it's, it's so-

1:15:54 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:15:55 Speaker 1 It's so painful that, that they're not gonna see how, how precious this is. Um, they're not gonna see... And it's not that I think I see it in an ultimate sense. I mean, totally selfishly. In other words, they're not gonna see it like I see it, is the, is the bottom line. Not, I'm not talking about, uh, you know, the emesdik, uh, uh, preciousness of it, which I'm sure I don't, I also don't understand. The, um-

1:16:15 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:16:15 Speaker 1 But, but for me, for me it's in Sichos. Um, what it is in Sichos, it's very hard to say. There's an ur, there's a lichtikeit, there's a lichtikeit from Sichos. There's a, there's a way that the Rebbe puts, puts ideas and the world into, into place. He puts it into place in a way where that ur shines through everything. It, it recontextualizes everything, and in a way that, that... I don't know. Other things just don't do it for me. I very much enjoy learning Mashal, um, um, Be'er HaGolah from the Maharal. I tweet about it sometimes when I learn it, which is not often enough. But the, um, I love learning Maharal. Maharal's like, like unbelievable intellectually. It's like, uh, it's a whole world in there and he-

1:17:00 Speaker 3 You like the clarity. You like the texts that have cla-- that have clarity.

1:17:04 Speaker 1 The clarity-

1:17:05 Speaker 3 Force of clarity.

1:17:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And not just clarity, but the way the, the, the weaving of things together. There's an achdus, there's a vision, there's a, there's a... This isn't arbitrary. There's a, there's, there's, there's, there's a whole world, and you can enter that world, and you enter the Maharal's world, and it's a world. Everything is in its place. Everything is organized in there.

1:17:23 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:23 Speaker 1 And, and it's all about midrashim and stories and things that are , which ironically to me, the stories are what's real. The things that are real, uh, AKA, you know, in other words, not pshat.

1:17:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:32 Speaker 1 It's about midrash, which is what's real. The, um, the, the... But, but even though I love the Maharal, right? Is to me, the Maharal is like, um, Likkutei Sichos extension. Likkutei Sichos appendix, right? This is... I'm really-- I can really build on my, and deepen my, my, my engagement with the Sichos with, uh, with, uh, with some insight from the Maharal, Maharal's way of seeing things. I don't know why-

1:17:56 Speaker 3 I don't know.

1:17:56 Speaker 1 Is the bottom line. I'm sure it's a very unsatisfying answer.

1:17:59 Speaker 3 No, actually it's not so unsatisfying. I mean, I don't think, I don't think there's ever going to be a... Why, why do you love someone? I mean-

1:18:06 Speaker 1 Sure.

1:18:06 Speaker 3 Good luck, good luck, good luck answering-

1:18:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:08 Speaker 3 That in a way that makes any sense, even to you or even to the person that you love, and certainly to anybody outside of that-

1:18:13 Speaker 1 Sure.

1:18:13 Speaker 3 'Cause words, words are not gonna work there. Um, like Chassidus always tells us, words are, are chitaynis, they're exterior.

1:18:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:18:22 Speaker 3 Try explaining.

1:18:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:18:24 Speaker 3 Try explaining Uh, I, I think I did come up with the... Like we-we're learning in the Chassidut the other day how like, how like a word is so, is, is so insignificant-

1:18:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:37 Speaker 3 With gabai, the midah that it's expressing.

1:18:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:41 Speaker 3 Uh, so I, I quipped, "In this country every morning people ask, 'How are you?'"

1:18:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:46 Speaker 3 "And they absolutely do not care."

1:18:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. They don't wanna know. Yeah.

1:18:52 Speaker 3 It's like such a perfect example of words-

1:18:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:55 Speaker 3 That like are utterly trivial and meaningless to the emotions that they claim to convey.

1:19:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:19:01 Speaker 3 Right? And, um, no, but, uh, so I, I don't find... Like it's not surprising, but it does make sense to me in a sense where, you know, at so- at some point, you know, you, you might like, you might like the stormy seas or, or, or it might not be that you like it. I mean, that, I think is a little bit more like that kind of adolescent, uh, burn the world down.

1:19:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:24 Speaker 3 But I think some people are just awa-- like they feel a sense like trying to make believe like everything around me is placid and calm.

1:19:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:34 Speaker 3 It doesn't... I, I just can't buy it.

1:19:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:36 Speaker 3 Right? Like everything feels a little bit too chaotic. Maybe I read too much, maybe I see things differently. Maybe that's just my, my tonus and efesh.

1:19:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:44 Speaker 3 But at the same time, I, I like it when someone gives me some harbor.

1:19:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:49 Speaker 3 You know? Like I don't... I, maybe I need to go out to sea every day to make a living, but I'd like to come home at night, you know?

1:19:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:56 Speaker 3 Once in a while, once a week and, and sit down and-

1:19:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:59 Speaker 3 And just, you know, feel like I, I, I'm stable for a little bit.

1:20:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:04 Speaker 3 You know? And but at the same time, that only works if you feel that that safe harbor knows what it's like to be out at sea.

1:20:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:13 Speaker 3 I think that's the key.

1:20:13 Speaker 1 I was about, I was about to say that.

1:20:15 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

1:20:15 Speaker 1 I was about to say that it is a harbor, but it's also out at sea, is the Rebbe comes to sea with you as well.

1:20:20 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:20 Speaker 1 I think anyway. I think.

1:20:22 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:23 Speaker 1 I, I was thinking, I was, I was... I went to a cabin. I did, I did a Baal Shem Tov experience once in my life. No, not really. I went to a, I went to a cabin in the mountains in, uh, in South Carolina for a week alone.

1:20:38 Speaker 3 Is it recently?

1:20:39 Speaker 1 Hmm, two summers ago.

1:20:43 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:20:44 Speaker 1 I went because my brother had passed away Purim time, and I went in the summer just because I needed, I needed some thinking time, some alone time, and so I went. And I went to, um, this cabin. I was just in this cabin, unbelievably beautiful, Smoky Mountains.

1:21:00 Speaker 3 Right.

1:21:00 Speaker 1 Completely secluded. I didn't see another person for a week. There was no one there.

1:21:03 Speaker 3 No phone?

1:21:04 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Phone, internet, don't worry. Not that, not, I'm not that holy. The, um, the, the... But it, but I didn't see, there were no people there. It was very, very peaceful. And I started really, I, I, I was sitting there, um, you know, thinking about chakras and putting on my tefillin and, you know, doing the davening thing. Very, uh, uninspired, and thinking about my lack of inspiration, which is a good thing to contemplate before davening. And, um, I just realized that, you know what feels fake? What feels fake about this experience is that, um, I'm in mourning and I'm in grief. It's a very, very, very painful, it's a very painful experience. It's like, it's like, it's like losing an arm or something. It's very-

1:21:49 Speaker 3 Was this, was this your only sibling?

1:21:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, and the truth is that it's very, very painful and, um, and what's so interesting about it is that I didn't think I would really feel it this way, but it really feels like a s- like spiritual damage. Like-

1:22:07 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:22:07 Speaker 1 Like your, your spiritual body has lost a limb. Like, like, uh, everything is more difficult. Everything is, everything is harder to bear. Everything is, uh, very, very difficult, painful. So the, um, I said the fake thing is, is that when I, when I... I'm feeling these feelings when I wake up, and then I'm gonna go and daven. And first of all, any real Hasidim would say that you already made your first mistake at Kiryat Malameid last night. Granted, that's true. I did make my, the first mistake the night before. But anyway, but, but on top of that, so granted that I made that mistake, but now I'm feeling all sad and, uh, and, um, uh, uh, in pain this morning. The real fake thing is to turn away from this pain and turn towards God and start talking to God, and saying, and making this bifurcation. You didn't know about that. That was-- I'm so sorry that I was ignoring you, God. This wasn't with you. This wasn't with God. This was, you know, my own terrible inner pain that you can't express, and you, you try and talk to people about it that are understanding, and they help as best as they can. But at the end of the day, you have to deal with this alone and this, this terrible inner suffering. And I'm turning away from that inner suffering, which God obviously doesn't know about.

1:23:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:27 Speaker 1 Intellectually, you know that this isn't true, but, but, but emotionally, this is what it feels like, is, is, um, uh, I'm turning away from my suffering and now I'm turning towards God, where I'm gonna tell Him all the words that I told Him every day, and I told Him the same words before my brother died, and it's all great, it's all fantastic. And I'm gonna tell Him that, you know, He, He lays out the ice and He, you know, all, all my ma'aseh that I tell Him when I, when I, when I turn to daven, I put my tefillin on. So the, the, the... That's so, so, so wrong.

1:23:55 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:55 Speaker 1 It's so wrong. It's so wrong that God is only in the davening and not in the suffering. It's so, it's so twisted and warped and, and the, the artifact of being taught to daven in the, the-- of being taught to daven maybe period, of being, of, of becoming a davener-

1:24:12 Speaker 3 Right.

1:24:12 Speaker 1 Uh, something with which I struggle profoundly, by the way. Davening is very difficult for me. The, the, um, what I mean is it's difficult to do the bad davening, not, not, um... I'm trying every day to do the good davening even.

1:24:27 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:24:27 Speaker 1 Not even, I haven't even reached that madrega. I'm just very, very, I have a very bad relationship and pain with doing the bad davening.

1:24:34 Speaker 3 You don't like daven with a minyan, basically.

1:24:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't like davening with a minyan at all. I hate it. The, um-

1:24:40 Speaker 3 Lubavitcher.

1:24:43 Speaker 1 That's the biggest proof. It's the biggest raya. A friend Shapiro at Marstan Semikhah always said that the, the only real definition of a Lubavitcher is that you can make a chil Lubavitch. That's the real definition of a Lubavitcher. So maybe this, uh-

1:24:54 Speaker 3 No.

1:24:54 Speaker 1 This can be a secondary definition.

1:24:55 Speaker 3 Look, I, I'm a cynic. I don't like the d- I don't like the definition at all.

1:24:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, you don't, yeah.

1:24:59 Speaker 3 No, no, no. That's, that's... I, I, whatever. Let's ha- Let's, let's go back to your, your, your point. I have a lot to say about that one.

1:25:07 Speaker 1 The point is, the point is, is, is, um, the Rebbe/Aibishter, which to me come as a package deal, by the way, you know, I have no problem with that. The, um, the whole idea that, that they're in the davening but not in the pain that you are suffering is such a dualistic, terrible, non-Jewish, fake way of looking at it.

1:25:31 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:25:31 Speaker 1 And the more suffering you do, I don't mean to sound too Eastern or anything, but the more suffering that you go through, the more you learn Torah, the more you see suffering every... Suffering's a... So this whole thing is shot through with suffering. I love Tehillim. I love reading Tehillim in English slowly.