Ep. 69 // "Lubavitcher Chinuch" w/ Rabbi Chaim Zusia "Zeidy" Fishman

00:00 Speaker 1 Being a teacher, you know, you get paid, you don't get paid.

00:04 Speaker 2 Yes.

00:07 Speaker 1 So I remember coming into the Rebbe, presenting him, you understand, with this business proposition. The Rebbe smiles, and he says, "Dos is punkt dem hepech vos du shraibst mir yeden chodesh." I used to write the Rebbe a doch every single month. So right away, I knew that my tafkid borui loan was out of business, and I spent 61 years as a mechanech.

00:47 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Yafetzon, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here in Cleveland, uh, running a few minutes late, but very much on time with, uh, a fellow who has already put me in my place, which is, which is how it should be.

01:21 Speaker 1 How did I put you, moysene? How did I put you-

01:23 Speaker 2 He told me to stop daring your cup about the water.

01:25 Speaker 1 Ah. All right.

01:28 Speaker 2 So I, you know, always could use a little bit more of that. Rabbi Fishman, uh, do we wanna share your first name?

01:35 Speaker 1 My name is Chaim Zusha Fishman.

01:37 Speaker 2 Rabbi Chaim Zusha Fishman, and, uh, a dear friend of a, of a bunch of my friends, and it's a pleasure to meet you for the first time-

01:47 Speaker 1 Thank you very much

01:47 Speaker 2 ... today. So I think, uh, before we start, just to all those who are listening and appreciate this podcast, uh, please like and subscribe on all the platforms, and if you'd like to help, uh, support the podcast and help it grow, please visit hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyways, Rabbi Fishman, why don't we begin all the way from the beginning? Uh, t- tell us a little bit where you grew up and how the story begins.

02:22 Speaker 1 I was born on Rosh Chodesh Nissan, taf reish tzedek tes, nineteen thirty-nine, in Providence, Rhode Island. And my parents and my zeide and bobbe, we all lived in the same house. And it was a house where we saw real chesed twenty-four/seven.

02:57 Speaker 2 Hmm.

02:59 Speaker 1 And in those years, if you lived in Ore HaSadeh outside of New York, a chinuch al pi taharas hakodesh, education according to the way it was supposed to be, was something unheard of altogether.

03:28 Speaker 2 How did your parents end up in Rhode Island?

03:32 Speaker 1 Uh, because they came there.

03:34 Speaker 2 So but they were from-

03:34 Speaker 1 Yeah

03:35 Speaker 2 ... they were from Eden?

03:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, they came there. And when I was five years old, I had to go to public school.

03:48 Speaker 2 Right.

03:51 Speaker 1 And I remember I came home, and it was, you understand, during Chanukah. And I told my mother that all the children of the class were bringing presents, you understand, to the teacher. And it wouldn't look very, very nice if I didn't bring a present. And my mother bought me a present. But it bothered my mother very, very much because I was born late and many years after my parents were married. So my mother went, at that time, in South Providence, there lived a rav by the name of Rav Yehoshua Werner. And she said, "I waited so long for a child, and this is what's going to be his education." So he started a yeshiva in South Providence, I remember, on Chestnut Street. And the students at that time were Moshe Werner, Simcha Bunim Werner, and Miriam Werner, and there were the Mabel girls, and a Kaufman, and the Maxes, and that's how we started the yeshiva.

05:41 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:43 Speaker 1 And in nineteen forty-six-

05:47 Speaker 2 Is this the same Simcha Bunim Werner who lives in Monsey?

05:50 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, the one-

05:51 Speaker 2 In Monsey?

05:51 Speaker 1 In Monsey, yeah. That was it.

05:52 Speaker 2 Oh, wow. He was my mashpia in Mesivta.

05:54 Speaker 1 Right.

05:54 Speaker 2 Small world.

05:56 Speaker 1 So in nineteen forty-six The Friediker Rebbe sent Yitzchak Groner, Yossel Goldstein, and a Rabbi Green to start Yeshivas Achiei Temimim Lubavitch.

06:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

06:24 Speaker 1 And HaRav Yeshua Werner had a brother in the north end where we lived, who was the rav of the Bnei Tzion Shul, and he gave over the Ta- Talmud Torah building as part of the yeshiva. Yitzchak Groner was single at that time. Yossel Goldstein was single, and Yossel Goldstein is a Providence boy.

06:56 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

06:57 Speaker 1 Yes. So I remember when my zayde brought me to the yeshiva, and he brought me to his class, and my zayde gave a kuck of Yossel Goldstein, he took a look at him. He says, "Yossel Goldstein?" "Oi," he tells my zayde, "Salmon!" They had lived in Providence, you understand, and our houses, you understand, that we lived, that we had. And that was, you understand, the first yeshiva experience that I had. And they started off the yeshiva at that time with 75 students.

07:46 Speaker 2 Wow.

07:49 Speaker 1 A year later, the Friediker Rebbe sent Devorah Konikov to teach the girls. They say that the reason that the Friediker Rebbe sent Devorah Konikov to teach the girls... And I remember, you understand, Yitzchak Groner's vort in the Bnei Tzion Shul in Providence, Rhode Island.

08:24 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:25 Speaker 1 And, you know, at that time, you know, kids came home, you understand, ..." And, you know, vegen frumkeit and so forth and so on. And the yeshiva was there from '46, '47.

08:42 Speaker 2 Can you describe, uh, Yitzchak Dovid Groner back in the day? I remember him many years later.

08:47 Speaker 1 Oh, Yitzchak Groner was the same Yitzchak Groner, you understand, tall, you know? A But my mother, you understand, pushed my father that we have to leave Providence in order that my sister and my brother and myself should remain frum Yidden.

12:26 Speaker 3 She didn't have confidence in the Torah Mesorah school?

12:28 Speaker 1 No, because the yeshiva at that... The yeshiva ended at the sixth grade-

12:33 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

12:33 Speaker 1 ... and it didn't go any further.

12:35 Speaker 3 The Torah Mesorah or the-

12:36 Speaker 1 The Torah Mesorah.

12:37 Speaker 3 Uh-huh. What happened to the Achat Mim school?

12:41 Speaker 1 Uh, it st- uh, d-

12:42 Speaker 3 Closed down?

12:42 Speaker 1 It fi- closed down.

12:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

12:44 Speaker 1 It closed down.

12:45 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

12:47 Speaker 1 And we moved to New York, and my father at that time was working for Sperry Rand in Charvescope's engineering.

12:56 Speaker 3 An engineer?

12:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. And we lived at that time, you understand, in Kew Garden Hills.

13:03 Speaker 3 In Queens.

13:05 Speaker 1 Which was

13:05 Speaker 3 In Queens.

13:06 Speaker 1 In Queens.

13:07 Speaker 3 Right.

13:08 Speaker 1 And my sister and brothers studied in a local yeshiva there, and I was a kid of 10, 11 years old. I studied in Yeshivas Chabein Yannke Joseph on the Lower East Side.

13:24 Speaker 3 Hmm.

13:25 Speaker 1 And I used to travel every single day, a little kid with a briefcase on the subway, you understand, and I went to Yeshivas Chabein Yannke Joseph, where I got, I s- got a good foundation in learning, and I learned amongst the illustrious Rosh Yeshivas there that gave me a yesod in learning via

13:52 Speaker 3 So this is in the '50s?

13:53 Speaker 1 This is in the '50s.

13:56 Speaker 3 Well, this yeshiva wa- I never heard of this yeshiva before.

13:58 Speaker 1 Oi vey iz mir.

14:00 Speaker 3 That's what I'm here for.

14:01 Speaker 1 All right. Yeshivas Chabein Yannke Joseph was one of the first yeshivas that started at the turn of the century in 1900.

14:14 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

14:16 Speaker 1 Because you have to realize, if you grew up in "" you lived outside of New York, there were no yeshivas at all-

14:28 Speaker 3 Hmm

14:28 Speaker 1 ... in those days. So, on the Lower East Side, there was Yeshivas Chabein Yannke Joseph. Then they started Yeshivas Teperash Yerushalayim, where Rabbi Yoshe Feinstein was the Rosh Yeshiva. The Galizianers started a Yeshiva Rabbi Shlomo Kliger on the Lower East Side. Those was the three yeshivas in the East Side. And in Brooklyn, the only yeshiva at that time was Yeshivas Torah Vadas.

15:02 Speaker 3 Right.

15:03 Speaker 1 And later on, they started Yeshivas Chabein Echai in Berlin. But even in those days, in the '20s and '30s, if you really wanted this, a higher Jewish education, you had to go, you understand, to Yeshivas Chabein Yitzchak Al Hanan.

15:25 Speaker 3 Right.

15:26 Speaker 1 They had already, already yeshiva and Rosh Yeshivas

15:31 Speaker 3 And where was that? That was in Brooklyn also?

15:33 Speaker 1 No. It started, Yeshivas Chabein Yitzchak Al Hanan started on the Lower East Side. It was called, on Clinton Street, I remember the building, it still stands. Of course, the

15:46 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

15:46 Speaker 1 ... Yeshiva, the

15:47 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

15:48 Speaker 1 ... Yeshiva was there at one time, the common street yeshiva. It was called Yeshivas Itzchok.

15:53 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

15:54 Speaker 1 It was there until they moved from there, you understand, to Yeshiva University in, uh, you know, in the West Side.

16:02 Speaker 3 Oh, Washington Heights.

16:03 Speaker 1 In Washington Heights. So, many of the illustrious Rosh Yeshivas, Avigdor Miller and Harav Mordechai Gifter, Wachafego from Cleveland, uh, from Lakewood, all these big... They learned there before they went to Europe to study in yeshiva.

16:31 Speaker 3 They lived in, they learned in Yeshivas Yitzchak Al Hanan?

16:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that was the yeshiva, you understand-

16:36 Speaker 3 That was-

16:36 Speaker 1 ... the higher learning

16:36 Speaker 3 ... that was the yeshiva.

16:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. And later on, you understand, you know, Yeshiva Torah Vadas went to the Beis Medrash the same thing with the Yannke Joseph. So I learned in that-

16:46 Speaker 3 Wait, so, so the Yeshiva Yannke Joseph repla- replaced Yitzchak Al Hanan?

16:50 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

16:51 Speaker 3 Separate?

16:51 Speaker 1 No, no, it was a separate yeshiva.

16:53 Speaker 3 But not-

16:53 Speaker 1 They went on from, you understand, uh, from the lower classes, they went on to Mesivta, and I learned in, uh, in the Beis Medrash.

17:01 Speaker 3 So, so Yannke Joseph wasn't quite as high as Yitzchak Al Hanan is what you're saying?

17:04 Speaker 1 No. And later on it became-

17:06 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

17:06 Speaker 1 ... later on it became, you understand, yeshiva.

17:09 Speaker 3 So, so who was the Rosh Yeshiva of Yannke Joseph?

17:11 Speaker 1 The Rosh Yeshiva, Rosh Yeshiva of Yannke Joseph was, uh, Harav Menachem, Menachem Nachman Kalitz.

17:16 Speaker 3 Menachem Kalitz?

17:17 Speaker 1 Nachman Kalitz, he came with talmidim of, uh, Rabbi Aharon Kotler.

17:21 Speaker 3 Really?

17:22 Speaker 1 Yes. And I learned, you understand, under Harav Shmuel Dov Berlin.

17:25 Speaker 3 So from, from Europe?

17:27 Speaker 1 Yes.

17:28 Speaker 3 When, when Rabbi Aharon Kotler was still in Europe?

17:30 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. And Harav, you understand, was, there was Harav Shmuel, Shmuel Dov Berlin, who was, from talmidim from Rabbi Lubert.

17:40 Speaker 3 Lubert, so a Br-

17:42 Speaker 1 Yeah

17:42 Speaker 3 ... a Brisker mer-

17:42 Speaker 1 From Kovno, from Kovno. And then there was Rabbi Zadok Lepstein, you understand, was, you understand, a talmid of Rabbi Shimon Kop.

17:51 Speaker 3 So the- were th- were these American boys who had gone to Europe or-

17:54 Speaker 1 No, no, these were European Rosh Yeshivas that came from Europe.

17:57 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

17:57 Speaker 1 You understand? Then they went to Shanghai, you understand? Then they came, you understand-

18:01 Speaker 3 Oh, so this is after Shanghai, right? This is after the war.

18:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, they came, they came, you understand, uh-

18:04 Speaker 3 After the war

18:05 Speaker 1 ... they came, and they became Rosh Yeshivas

18:07 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

18:08 Speaker 1 ... and there was Rabbi Shaya Shimonovitz also was A brilliant Talmud Chacham, and he was Mevchirah Talmud for me in Europe.

18:19 Speaker 2 Right.

18:20 Speaker 1 And also one of my rabbis, you understand, was HaRav Rebbe Yitzchak Tendler, Moshe Tendler's father.

18:26 Speaker 2 Wow.

18:27 Speaker 1 Moshe Tendler's father lived in the Garden. When he came to America, he lived in Yitzchak Honen in the '20s, and Al Gat Zvi Cham from the Metzita Rav Eli.

18:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:38 Speaker 1 He was a Rosh Yeshiva at that time.

18:41 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Boniolom, Torah Mesora, and Atalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. So what was it like for you as an American boy from Rhode Island coming into this scene of Rosh Yeshiva from all the biggest yeshivas in Europe?

19:47 Speaker 1 Uh, I came from a Yiddish-speaking house.

19:49 Speaker 2 Right.

19:50 Speaker 1 So it was nothing new to me.

19:52 Speaker 2 No, but, uh, it was a different world, no? It was not a different world of-

19:56 Speaker 1 No.

19:57 Speaker 2 No.

19:57 Speaker 1 I ne- I never looked at it as a different world.

20:00 Speaker 2 Uh.

20:00 Speaker 1 But you have to realize it was from my days.

20:04 Speaker 2 Who were the other talmidim?

20:05 Speaker 1 Hmm?

20:05 Speaker 2 Who were the other talmidim? Also American boys that grew up in-

20:08 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, partly, yes. Uh, uh, I mean, uh, the talmidim there, uh , Rav Aharon Kotler always told Rav Mendel Kabitz, "Shik me bochrim fun dorten, fun, fun Yankiv Yesiv."

20:36 Speaker 2 He, he, he was already in Lakewood?

20:38 Speaker 1 Yes.

20:38 Speaker 2 Yes.

20:39 Speaker 1 And Rav Moshe Dovid Hillul, who was the Chabonim Rosh Yeshiva learned, you understand, in Yankiv Yesiv.

20:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

20:45 Speaker 1 And they were stirring, you understand, and you understand, these Romero Kegingen, who some, and, uh, they, some, you know, were very illustrious talmidim Chachamim.

20:55 Speaker 2 And these were American boys?

20:56 Speaker 1 These were American boys.

20:57 Speaker 2 Hmm. Well, was there, was there at that time, like, a sense of, of, like, this pre-war, post-war dynamic that we talk about today? Was there a sense of, of, uh, it's a, it's a new time, and we're, we're, we're, we're rebuilding from the ashes of the, of the war, or was that...

21:17 Speaker 1 I really don't think so.

21:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:20 Speaker 1 I mean, many of them, you understand, there were those who lived in Shanghai. There were those who came, you understand, the HaRav Rabbi Joseph Yaminsky, uh, Yaminsky, and HaRav Kabitz, they were, you understand, from Russia.

21:36 Speaker 2 Right.

21:36 Speaker 1 And Takh in Samarkand and Tashkent.

21:40 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

21:41 Speaker 1 Uh, that, you know, they were, uh, Klachka talmidim, you understand, for Shotei De-

21:46 Speaker 2 Oh, so they had been with the Lubavitchers in Samarkand and Tashkent?

21:49 Speaker 1 Yes.

21:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. But i- but for the children, there wasn't this sense of-

21:53 Speaker 1 I, they, I don't think there was no sense. And in fact, let me tell you-

21:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

21:57 Speaker 1 ... that the menail of the yeshiva was a Hungarian, HaRav Dr. Hillel Weiss.

22:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:12 Speaker 1 He was, uh, the menail. He was, you understand, a talmid of the Cham Sefer.

22:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:17 Speaker 1 So he was a Hungarian menail, but he was a very, very, he was a mechanech bechesed ho- hoerion.

22:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:25 Speaker 1 And he was a very, very, very warm, warm, warm person.

22:30 Speaker 2 That's a, that's a very interesting thing in general. It seems that in those days, when the yeshivas were more fledgling, meaning that they didn't have these big institutions, and they were, they were, like you said, Rav Kotler was looking for talmidim. It seems like they, there was a certain softness. They-

22:47 Speaker 1 In Yankiv Yesiv, in my days, we had 1,100 students.

22:50 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. So a big yeshiva.

22:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:53 Speaker 2 Oh, wow. 1,100 students in Lower East Side.

22:55 Speaker 1 Un, 1,100 students, and the menail knew the last name of each and every one of them.

23:02 Speaker 2 Wow. So it's a big yeshiva.

23:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:03 Speaker 2 A massive yeshiva. Wow. Okay.

23:07 Speaker 1 I remember my sixth grade yeshi- uh, my s- sixth grade rebbe was, uh, HaRav Tuvia Goldstein. Later on, he became, you know, he was very, he was a meir dikke talmid chacham, for shite. He was oisek in Halakha, and he started a yeshiva, Emek Halakha, you understand, in Borough Park. He became one of the most famous poskim.

23:30 Speaker 2 But i- but in your days, he was just a rebbe.

23:32 Speaker 1 He was a sixth grade re- a sixth, uh, a sixth grade rebbe.

23:35 Speaker 2 His name was what?

23:37 Speaker 1 HaRav Tuvia Goldstein.

23:38 Speaker 2 HaRav Tuvia Goldstein. Wow.

23:40 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I could name him, I don't know, uh, uh, Rebbe Rabbi Yisroel Spin. He was an American boy who learned in Mir.

23:49 Speaker 2 He had gone to Mir before the war.

23:51 Speaker 1 Y- uh, yes. And also Rabbi Yoven Berenstein, who was also, you understand, also a Mir talmid, American boy.

23:59 Speaker 2 Wow.

23:59 Speaker 1 And also, uh, there was a Rav Sheinberg, the, the famous Sheinberg's brother.

24:05 Speaker 2 So, so at your poi- at this point already, it didn't s- it, it doesn't seem like there's a stira between being an American boy and a talmid chacham.

24:12 Speaker 1 No, no.

24:12 Speaker 2 You already have people who have done it.

24:14 Speaker 1 Yes.

24:14 Speaker 2 So y- we're already past the turn of the century-

24:17 Speaker 1 Yes

24:17 Speaker 2 ... where, where to be a Frumi in America is ganz unog frek.

24:20 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.

24:21 Speaker 2 Okay.

24:22 Speaker 1 So-

24:23 Speaker 2 So it, so it's beginning to make sense at this point to be an American boy, you know, who kochs in learning and a Frumi. It, it's, it's not so u- it's not so unusual.

24:33 Speaker 1 No.

24:34 Speaker 2 Okay.

24:34 Speaker 1 And, uh-

24:35 Speaker 2 Very interesting. And where are mo- where are most of these talmidim going after the yeshiva?

24:43 Speaker 1 Uh, well, wait a minute. So the yeshivas had a very, very excellent English program.

24:52 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:53 Speaker 1 Um, we used to learn from two to six, you know, English. And many, you understand, of the, the talmidim, some of them became rabbonim, some became doctors and psychologists, you understand, v'chulah, v'chulah.

25:12 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So most of them were into work-

25:15 Speaker 1 And, and the boys that came, we-- they came from all over, from the Bronx-

25:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

25:19 Speaker 1 ... and from Borough Park, from all over.

25:23 Speaker 2 Right.

25:25 Speaker 1 So it was a mixture of all of us. But it's-- I, I, I remember them as very, very, very productive and good times, and gute khaverim.

25:36 Speaker 2 Beautiful. Yes, like you said before, in those days it was, are you a frum Yid or not? There wasn't so much the-

25:42 Speaker 1 Uh, it was no... In other words, you didn't have a brand-

25:47 Speaker 2 I understand

25:48 Speaker 1 ... on who you were.

25:49 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Hmm. Well, in the yeshiva that you were in, was there, was there any, like, you learned, uh, mussar of a certain, uh, uh, genre? You learned any kind of Chassidus-

26:02 Speaker 1 Uh, no

26:02 Speaker 2 ... or was it just Gemara and Halakha?

26:05 Speaker 1 We learned Gemara, you understand, and also achalim, poskim, you understand, foshtate rainien also. We, there was a amushashmuies, foshtate imolamo.

26:15 Speaker 2 But that's it?

26:16 Speaker 1 That's it.

26:17 Speaker 2 So mainly Gemara, Gemara Halakha.

26:20 Speaker 1 Gemara, Halakha, and Poskim.

26:22 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Okay. So how, how, how, how do we end up... the obvious question, how, how does a, a fine talmid of all these illustrious Yish- uh, Roshish- illustrious Rosh yeshivas from Litau, how does he end up in, uh, in Lubavitch-

26:39 Speaker 1 Well, well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute

26:40 Speaker 2 ... I'm skipping.

26:41 Speaker 1 In New York, where we lived, I davened, you understand, in a shul called Machzike Ahadhas, the Klimentiver Rov, and geven Poilishe Yidden .

26:55 Speaker 2 This is back in Queens.

26:56 Speaker 1 In Queens.

26:57 Speaker 2 On Shabbos. On Shabbos.

26:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, on Shabboses, that's right. In the... during the week, I davened in the yeshiva, but on Shabbos, I was 1 miss, you understand, it's like a populer, because look, you understand, in the, um, bazeil, foshtate dadum. So it was a, it was like, uh, these were survivors from the war.

27:15 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

27:15 Speaker 1 They had... we had a minyan, you understand, foshtate, uh, they were Poilishe, Chassidish Yidden, Vadriner Yidden, foshtate v'chol. So that's where I got the Vadrin- the Vadrin Chassidish guy, I got from the shtiebel itself.

27:27 Speaker 2 All right. All right. All right. So-

27:30 Speaker 1 So when my mother passed away, I went back to Providence to live, you understand, with my zeidem and my pabbe.

27:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

27:44 Speaker 1 And-

27:44 Speaker 2 How old were you then?

27:46 Speaker 1 Oh, 19, 20.

27:48 Speaker 2 So you basically graduated yeshiva.

27:49 Speaker 1 I graduated. I don't wanna go into the, ikh shuld ben a musmach ish khit, but I don't wanna go into that.

27:56 Speaker 2 Okay .

27:56 Speaker 1 That's kind of stuff. So I came back there. I studied also, you understand, Shas and Poskim mit, mit, mit a, mit a Yid what's geven a gon oyrum. His name is Harav Yosef Shmuel Brandwein, meria.

28:18 Speaker 2 Where, where was this? Back in-

28:19 Speaker 1 In Providence.

28:20 Speaker 2 Oh, in Providence.

28:21 Speaker 1 Yes, I studied with him.

28:22 Speaker 2 What was he doing there?

28:24 Speaker 1 Let me explain. I'll show you who he was. The alter, alter Bostoner Rebbe had a daughter from his zibeleh krishe.

28:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

28:42 Speaker 1 She was married to Harav Yosef Shmuel Brandwein, who was actually a Rov in Yerushalayim in Ein Kerem. Er given a gon. He was a musmach for Rav Pesach Hersh Frank.

29:01 Speaker 2 Oh, sure.

29:01 Speaker 1 You understand? He was aseret ha'einayim kol, and he happened to be, you understand, mamish, a gon, and he was also a gon to Mekubal.

29:13 Speaker 2 Mekubal.

29:14 Speaker 1 He came to Providence, I don't know really why.

29:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

29:19 Speaker 1 Maybe, you understand, to get Social Security, to go back, you understand, v'cholav, v'cholav. But I learned with him a lot.

29:26 Speaker 2 Wow.

29:27 Speaker 1 And so I was there. And I also have a degree-

29:47 Speaker 2 Mm

29:47 Speaker 1 ... in accounting and finance, which I have never used. And I had worked, you understand, for the government, and I was getting sick and tired, whenever it came sh- Fridays and Shabbos, to ask for time off. I says, "Forget about it altogether."

30:10 Speaker 2 Hmm.

30:12 Speaker 1 And in Providence, there lived a Yid. His name was Rav Moshe Dresdin. Rav Moshe Dresdin learned in Novhardok. He also learned in Lubavitch in Vilna. And he was a Lubavitcher Hasid. He was... his father was also Lubavitcher. And he has asked me, "Ham shusher, kum af a farbrengen." I should come to a farbrengen.

30:56 Speaker 2 In seven, seventy or in Providence?

30:58 Speaker 1 Well, let, I- I'll tell you the- So it was Yitz Beis Tammuz, Tov Shin Hof.

31:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:13 Speaker 1 I went with him and his wife to Crown Heights. His son had an apartment on Empire Boulevard. Yitzchak Floor had his store-

31:29 Speaker 2 Sure

31:29 Speaker 1 ... on the bottom. And I went to the farbrengen. In those days, the farbrengens were not in 770. Yitz Beis Tammuz, it was in a hall.

31:42 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:44 Speaker 1 So I remember coming to the farbrengen. The oysyes that the Rebbe spoke with at that time, I was not very, very familiar with. But I notice in the middle of the farbrengen that the Rebbe lifted himself up from his chair. And I became very inquisitive, so I asked, "How come?" So they told me, "Dos iz dem friaring Rebbes, dem Rebbes a melamed, Velinkin. He came to the farbrengen, that's why the Rebbe got up from his seat." And I remember at the farbrengen where Uchel Tzimmer was there, you understand? The alter, the elder Hasidim, v'chol, v'chol. And I remember the Rebbe saying at the farbrengen, "Es iz genug zait tsu farbrengen in a fremd." It's enough time that we have to farbrengen in strange places. So at that time, you understand, it started the beginning of the building the first addition to what 770, you know, the Beis Medrash, which is today where it is. Friday night, I davened, you understand, in 770, you know, upstairs. But the davening to me was not inspired at all. I mean, they daven mit Nusach HaTefillah in the mitten fun Hoch. They daven the Nusach just like you daven in the middle of the week. And I remember the member, the Rebbe, you understand, uh, uh, by the tefillah. Shabbos morning, I got up very, very early. At that time, you understand, the Bobover Rebbe lived in Brooklyn, on Brooklyn. So I decided in the morning, I'll go daven over there. Ah, heimish, uh, uh, Kai Luden, you understand,

33:56 Speaker 1 v'chol, v'chol. More, you understand, you know, a melamed, they can daven him. And Shabbos, there was no farbrengen. And so Sunday morning, I came, you understand, to 770. And in those days, the Rebbe used to walk from his house by himself. You can say the Rebbe walks on the block, all the bochurim gezicht fun ander. They all disappear. I grew up, you understand, in a place, a Rebbe gets mishloach. But I didn't give any mishloach. And that year, Tachin, I remember on Sunday, the Rebbe went to Gan Yisroel on that time. So I came home, and I wrote the Rebbe a letter in regards to parnassa. And I also wrote the Rebbe an inyan in learning, which in Igeres Yutess, he wrote a ha'arah on what I writ- I wr- I wrote. It's there. And the Rebbe-

35:25 Speaker 2 What did that feel like when you got the ha'arah for the-

35:28 Speaker 1 What?

35:28 Speaker 2 What did it feel like when you got the ha'arah to, you know?

35:31 Speaker 1 Uh, um, w- Let me tell you all the... I'll tell you the whole, the whole letter.

35:34 Speaker 2 All right.

35:35 Speaker 1 The whole, the whole letter. So the first thing the Rebbe says, "As ich zog ib men a persent tsu tsedakah fun davening, dos iz a sguleh far parnassa." Give a few cents before the davening is sguleh.

35:54 Speaker 2 Well, in those days, a few cents-

35:55 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:55 Speaker 2 ... a few cents was something in those days.

35:57 Speaker 1 A, no, the few c- a few cents for tsedakah fun davening.

36:00 Speaker 2 Right, but in those days, a few cents was, was not, was not nothing.

36:04 Speaker 1 That, that it sh- that-

36:06 Speaker 2 Right

36:06 Speaker 1 ... that it sh- should be a sguleh for parnassa. Then he writes, I should begin to learn Chitas. And the third thing he writes to me, "Es vall geben chabdaiah zey solt ib cook un dineh til."

36:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

36:25 Speaker 1 S- And he also thanked me for the piece of Torah that I wrote. And this, uh, Moshe Davidson also dealt in seforis. So I ordered my Tehillim. Got my Tehillim, Meir Shoyor, the whole works. In Bahahi, Chava Yehuda, he opened, you understand, the Shalosh in the parasha of Shema, "Levov v'cho"- Has to be with two reason. It was a chov and a chein chov. Shouldn't have to be written kesivra.

37:23 Speaker 2 Right.

37:24 Speaker 1 So I had no, I had to put in a new parshah. So I'll never forget, I came home, and I told my zayde. So my zayde s- told me like this, "Du zolst vissen, a dos is a rebbe. You should know that this is a rebbe." So one day I was walking, and Rabbi Moshe Dreisen's wife meets me in the street, and she says to me, "Chaim Zusia, in Worcester they need to have somebody to learn with fareneilom, zeiner baal korei and to run the shul." This was very, very far-fetched from my mind at that time. But zayde says to me like this, that I should go, see what it is. If you like it, stay there. So I went at the end of Cheshvan. It was Shabbos Parshas Lech Lecha. I learned, chug gezoght a drashah, and I took the job. I used to give a shiur by Michl umeiru amongst other Shiurim is a shiur in Eda Hachasidit. In those days, there were taka... It was nisach Ashkenazic shul, and there were the majority zane geveyn Litvishe Yidden. To me, a Litvisher Yid is a Yid was called from Lita. They came from Kamai, you understand, Ponovezh, and Ishbitza. And there was 30, 40 balabatim would sit every night by the shiur. Yisroel Gordon came to Michle. He sat down by the shiur. After the shiur, he comes over to me and he says, "Chaim, maybe you'll come and you'll teach in the yeshiva." At that time, the yeshiva and the shul were

40:22 Speaker 1 not on very, very good terms. They threatened me I shouldn't take the job, but I'm a very, very independent person.

40:36 Speaker 2 Yes, we noticed.

40:37 Speaker 1 So I took the job, and I spent 61 years as a mechanech.

40:48 Speaker 2 Wow. There in Worcester?

40:51 Speaker 1 In the Yeshivas HaTemimim in Worcester, the bonaiyul was Rabbi Yehudit Ziv Fogelman. Hershel Fogelman was the bonaiyul.

40:59 Speaker 2 So you didn't take the job out to Lubavitcher yet?

41:02 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, I mean, uh, a full Lubavitcher? I, I, I-

41:17 Speaker 2 I'm saying you didn't take it because you were a Lubavitcher.

41:20 Speaker 1 I didn't take it because I was Lubavitcher.

41:21 Speaker 2 Right. As we approach the two-year mark of this podcast, Homesick for Lubavitch has become a household name in the Lubavitch community, with thousands of views each week on YouTube alone, as well as thousands more on the various podcast platforms. We have a devoted audience that listens regularly to the conversations and shares their thoughts with their families and communities. If you would like to sponsor an episode or advertise on one of our episodes, please reach out to bentzi@yuvlamedia.com. That's bentzi@yuvlamedia, Y-U-V-L-A, media.com.

41:58 Speaker 1 I started to teach in September of 1961.

42:02 Speaker 2 Hmm.

42:05 Speaker 1 And I taught, you understand, in the morning the fifth grade. And I, even in Worcester, one of my talmidim from 1961 moved from Worcester to Cleveland. She's here.

42:21 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

42:24 Speaker 1 My talmidim, Shloime Levi Abramowitz-

42:28 Speaker 2 Hmm

42:28 Speaker 1 ... Reb Chazan in 770.

42:30 Speaker 2 Right.

42:31 Speaker 1 Learned in that class at that time. Then there was Aron Shloime, Yershuf, Yenhevelt, you understand, Eisner. I know all the talmidim, you understand. And Dovid Fisher, who lives in Eretz Yisroel, has been learning for his whole life. That was my first class.

42:52 Speaker 2 Dovid Fisher, the real estate guy?

42:53 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

42:55 Speaker 2 Another Fisher.

42:56 Speaker 1 Zayn tatte, Rebbe Naftali.

42:58 Speaker 2 Right.

42:59 Speaker 1 He lived in Worcester. All right. So I started, I taught them, you understand, you know, the first year. Started Parshas Yisrei. I taught them Yisrei, Mishpatim, Terumah, Tetzaveh. My yakha pikudei bacha bichukosei metachas, tzen pokimishnayis

43:23 Speaker 2 What drew you to Chinuch? Why did you decide to take the job? Why? If you weren't doing it also, like, because you're a Lubavitcher, why did you ta- why did you take it?

43:32 Speaker 1 Why did I take it?

43:33 Speaker 2 Yeah, why did you... To be a mechanich is a decision. You don't just fall into it.

43:37 Speaker 1 Please. I had good mechanchim when I was young in yeshiva, so I knew my job.

43:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. You, you saw, you saw the value in it.

43:50 Speaker 1 Well, wait a minute. Uh, uh, uh, is miloz zeden.

43:54 Speaker 2 Sure.

43:55 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll explain everything to you. So, for Yeshiva HaMerchazus, they used to send Rabbi Garfinkel to come, you understand, to the yeshiva, give him b'chinis to the kids. Came into my class, and he was very, very, very impressed. So later on, I found out he gave a report to the Rebbe. And he s- and he wrote that Chaim Fisher is a teacher who teaches b'emuno. And a good mechanich has to be one that can connect with the child.

45:18 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:21 Speaker 1 Number two, you have to be very, very caring to the child. And you have to know when the day ends, you have to keep your talmidim on your cup twenty-four/seven. That's what I did during my tenure as a mechanich. And also, I was able to reach, you understand, to the children. And you have to realize, in Orayach Sotah, you had frum kids, you had kids who didn't come from frum houses.

46:05 Speaker 2 Right.

46:07 Speaker 1 I never differentiated between one and the other.

46:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

46:12 Speaker 1 My target was that I have to take, you understand, a kid who comes from an irreligious home, ohev hem, that he should become frum. And Baruch Hashem, I was able to do it.

46:31 Speaker 2 Hmm.

46:34 Speaker 1 And in the afternoon, I gave a gemara shiur to a different class. I had another class. And that's how I started, you understand, my teaching career. And I taught on all levels. Wherever Rabbi Fogelman, you understand, had a problem with a teacher, so he used to, you understand, you understand.

47:05 Speaker 2 Was there any difference in the chinuch that you found in this new school compared to the chinuch that you had, uh, fo- seen as a talmid at the Yeshivas Yakiv Yesiv?

47:16 Speaker 1 Uh-

47:17 Speaker 2 Was there a different flavor?

47:19 Speaker 1 Uh, I used to s-- I never took a teaching course in my life. But I knew, you understand, how my rebbeim related to me.

47:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

47:33 Speaker 1 And I had a rebbeim in yeshiva who was on a good zey, as I had a bottom, I mentioned. Somebody you could sit and you could talk to.

47:42 Speaker 2 Right, but was there something about Rabbi Fogelman that was different?

47:46 Speaker 1 Uh, HaRav Fogelman, I mean... How can I put it? He was dedicated to the job. He was dedicated to education. And bahem is geven the king tired of idealt. In other words, to him, getting a Jewish child to come to yeshiva was more important than anything else.

48:22 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:24 Speaker 1 And he really extended himself. I mean, if you couldn't pay tuition, he was on the go all the time, out collecting and making sure, you understand, that the yeshiva had money to pay their payroll v'cholov, v'cholov. And I also became very, very friendly, you understand, with Rabbi Saul Gordon. And going to more fabringens, you understand, for sheitiyah. So a nosi has, you understand, the qualities of a rebbe is of a maise. And I went, you understand, to the fabringens. So you learn a little bit more, you get a little bit more inclined of what's going on and understanding and starting to learn chasidus v'cholov, v'cholov.

49:26 Speaker 2 Who did you learn chasidus with at the time?

49:29 Speaker 1 Hmm?

49:29 Speaker 2 Who did you learn chasidus with at the time? Who was the... So who taught you chasidus? Or you just learned it on your own?

49:35 Speaker 1 I learned it on my own.

49:35 Speaker 2 On your own. So you said earlier that when you came to Seven Seventy the first time, you found the Kabbalah Shabbos not so inspiring.

49:44 Speaker 1 I, I-

49:44 Speaker 2 Did that change?

49:45 Speaker 1 I even, I even wrote to the Rebbe .

49:50 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

49:50 Speaker 1 Into that. I said, "For shame. I have, I forgot, I have the letter around, you understand, what he, what he answered me, you understand that." But then-

49:59 Speaker 2 What did you write?

50:00 Speaker 1 Uh, I, I, I have the letter someplace here.

50:07 Speaker 2 Well, you said you were about to say what you wrote about.

50:09 Speaker 1 I, I wrote about how I, how the davening is, you understand, on in 18 year. It's-

50:17 Speaker 2 Missing spice

50:18 Speaker 1 ... well, without Yizkor. But then as you know today, now Lubavitch has a nusach, but sings, you understand, never for the Hodeleh. They never sang the Hodeleh in Lubavitch.

50:29 Speaker 2 Right.

50:30 Speaker 1 Later on, you understand, for Shati, you know, uh, Rabbi Mel Konikov, he was... The Rabbi Mel Konikov was a teacher in yeshiva when I was there.

50:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:38 Speaker 1 And he was a chazan also. He was the one that really introduced, you understand-

50:43 Speaker 2 I s-

50:43 Speaker 1 ... the singing of Moshiach, Moshiach, uh, in Lubavitch, and now they have a whole nusach.

50:48 Speaker 2 But when you came back as you're, you're in s- you're already learning Chassidus, and you're teaching in the Lubavitch school, before they start bringing in the songs, do you appreciate now 770, or you're still going to the Belzer shtiebel for varre nu?

51:00 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Chabad is Haredi chain. Uh, uh, from the last s- uh, almost 65 years.

51:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

51:12 Speaker 1 I even also understand that, you know, today, today they tell me you have to go buy a pair of tefillin, I don't know what is, what they charge. I mean, I bought by Shaya Mandel $380.

51:27 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

51:27 Speaker 1 And I still have the parshes, and they're still good.

51:30 Speaker 2 $85 for a pair of tefillin?

51:32 Speaker 1 That's right.

51:33 Speaker 2 Alter Rebbe's or Ari Z"L?

51:34 Speaker 1 No.

51:37 Speaker 2 Ari Z"L.

51:37 Speaker 1 Ari Z"L. I mean-

51:39 Speaker 2 $85.

51:40 Speaker 1 Wait a minute. I bought, you understand, uh, um, all my iniklach became bar mitzvah, I also bought them two pairs of tefillin.

51:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

51:49 Speaker 1 So Moshe Witkes when he became a bar mitzvah, it would cost $300 a stick, 500 bucks a piece.

51:55 Speaker 2 Right.

51:57 Speaker 1 When Zaki became bar mitzvah, and Ari, it cost me $650 a piece.

52:02 Speaker 2 Ah.

52:03 Speaker 1 When Shmulie, my baby, Alter Rebbe's kasab, Moshe was living then in Spas. It would cost $850. I bought, you understand, Rabbi Nathan Sagash's. So they've gone up in price.

52:18 Speaker 2 A little bit, yes.

52:19 Speaker 1 A little bit. Oh, a little bit? Oy vey iz mir.

52:23 Speaker 2 And so talk a little bit about that, 'cause you're talking about the Witkes boys, and, uh, they don't share a last name with you, but you call them your iniklach. Tell, tell, tell that story a little bit-

52:32 Speaker 1 Right

52:32 Speaker 2 ... 'cause it, 'cause it has to do with your, uh, your, the dedication that you described as a mechanch, I think.

52:38 Speaker 1 Well, let me explain. The whole Witkes family having a shidduch with Lubavitch is the following story. It was the night before school began, Rabbi Fogelman and Yisroel Gordon went to Morris and Hilda Witkes. They should register their children to come to the yeshiva, and that's how they came to the yeshiva.

53:27 Speaker 2 Hmm.

53:30 Speaker 1 And as I told you beforehand, I encouraged Richie in that time he was in my class that Fogelman used to give hashech in Chumash and Rashi before davening, you should go. V'chol, v'chol, the rest is history. So being the mechanch that I was, I took a very, very, very, very interesting interest in all the, of my talmidim. So in one of my classes, I had a talmid, his name was Yosef Dave Bear Shaw. He was about 11 and a half and 12. He comes over to me and he says to me, "I wanna learn for my bar mitzvah." I said to him, "Yosef, you wanna learn for your bar mitzvah? You have to come every single Shabbos to shul. From shul, you'll come to my house passover Shabbos for lunch, and I'll teach you the bar mitzvah." And bekach such. He came, as I said, to my house. To tell you a little about this Yosef, he lost his mother when he was two months, two years old.

55:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

55:29 Speaker 1 He was originally from Providence, Rhode Island, and his father was a Holocaust survivor. It was quite diff- he had a sister also. It was quite difficult for him, you know, to bring up his children. So his mother had a sister, an older sister, who lived in Worcester. Sonia and Joe Nathanson took in this Yosef and his sister And when he got older, he had an uncle, Jack Furl, who said, "Bring him to the yeshiva." And that's how the kid came to the yeshiva. So he started to come, you understand, you know, to, in my house every single Shabbos, lunch. And then-

56:38 Speaker 2 Were you married at the time?

56:39 Speaker 1 Huh? Sure.

56:40 Speaker 2 You were married already.

56:41 Speaker 1 I was, uh, I got married in '62.

56:45 Speaker 2 Before Worcester?

56:47 Speaker 1 No.

56:48 Speaker 2 During Worcester.

56:48 Speaker 1 During Worcester. I'll get back to that later.

56:51 Speaker 2 No, that's okay.

56:54 Speaker 1 So, from the Friday nights, and Friday, uh, Shabbos afternoon, it start... He, I mean, his aunt and uncle, you understand, kept kosher, but they were not frum.

57:09 Speaker 2 Right.

57:10 Speaker 1 So Friday nights, he started to eat in my house also.

57:14 Speaker 2 Gevona ben bayis.

57:15 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah, and a gevona, a ben bayis, what I mean, shtub. And then he used to sleep at my house also when, let's say Friday nights and Shabbos. And when he was about 14 or 15 years old, he became very, very friendly with Yehoska Witkes, Gary Witkes. Hm. So on Shabbos, he wanted to hang out with him. He would, he didn't come to shul at that time, Yehoska, Gary. But he used to come to my house to hang out with him on Shabbos in my house. So naturally, you understand, he used to come, you understand, farshite, farshite Shabbos, farshite mechulech mechulem. And as time went on, he also started to come to shul, and you understand, staying over Shabbos in my house or Friday nights in my house. And I took care of them like a father takes care of children.

58:44 Speaker 2 Hm. Beautiful. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Basile Ghani, the first Maimon, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basile Ghani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basile Ghani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put in the production, the film's original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show.

59:48 Speaker 1 Well, he was already 17 at that time.

59:51 Speaker 2 Who?

59:52 Speaker 1 Uh, Gary Witkes.

59:53 Speaker 2 Gary Witkes.

59:54 Speaker 1 But, you understand, and then I took care of them, you understand.

59:59 Speaker 2 And Richie was already tagging along?

1:00:01 Speaker 1 Uh, Richie, it should have been farshite in New York.

1:00:05 Speaker 2 Oh, he's older.

1:00:05 Speaker 1 He was, he was a little, he's older than him.

1:00:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:00:09 Speaker 1 But actually, uh, I, I, It's not... And he didn't experience Gary any Shabbos like a ...

1:00:22 Speaker 2 young farshite before. And then, you know, I became involved with him very, very much so. And I took care with him

1:00:35 Speaker 1 B'gashmiyus and b'ruchniyus. When they got married also, very involved.

1:00:45 Speaker 2 Their parents didn't mind?

1:00:47 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, uh, no. Sonya, you understand, she always thanked me, you understand, farshite mechulech mechulem, I mean.

1:01:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:00 Speaker 1 And, uh, and, uh, Gary's father wasn't living either.

1:01:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:06 Speaker 1 Died when he was seven years old.

1:01:08 Speaker 2 Oh, I see.

1:01:10 Speaker 1 And I was involved, you understand, with him. And I, I, Baruch Hashem. And that's how we understand farshite, you know.

1:01:20 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

1:01:20 Speaker 1 I mean...

1:01:22 Speaker 2 And today his kids are your

1:01:23 Speaker 1 I mean, I took care of them.

1:01:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:29 Speaker 1 Vayaseem without them.

1:01:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:31 Speaker 1 B'gashmiyus, b'chul.

1:01:34 Speaker 2 That's how you understood the job of a

1:01:35 Speaker 1 And Baruch Hashem-

1:01:40 Speaker 2 Was that also mechanich? Was it also a, a, a shliach? Was it also a yid?

1:01:44 Speaker 1 No. No.

1:01:45 Speaker 2 How did you see it?

1:01:45 Speaker 1 It was... Oh, yeah. Not having children is a void in a person's life.

1:02:07 Speaker 2 Hm.

1:02:15 Speaker 1 My wife's father's, uh, by me, Yaakov Cheney. And

1:02:40 Speaker 2 What's that?

1:02:41 Speaker 1 .

1:02:42 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:02:43 Speaker 1 So, but you understand, they were in my life before the two boys, so it made it, it was a lot easier for me, you understand? Even though that it bothered me, you understand? But not so much emotionally as it took on my wife.

1:03:08 Speaker 2 That you didn't have children together.

1:03:11 Speaker 1 And also, I was involved, you understand, with other mishpochs, the Abramowitz family.

1:03:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:03:23 Speaker 1 Their father was also a very, very good friend of mine, Rab Shmuel. Passed away in '65. I also became very involved with the mishpoche.

1:03:38 Speaker 2 How did people in those days see the, the, the thing of, the, the problem of infertility? Was it something that people discussed? Was it...

1:03:48 Speaker 1 Uh, it, it wasn't something, I don't think, that people discussed. But, you know, it just, it didn't happen.

1:04:09 Speaker 2 Right. People didn't think they understood it. It was just a fact of life.

1:04:13 Speaker 1 No, and I mean, and, and when you lose them-

1:04:22 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:22 Speaker 1 ... it's whatever.

1:04:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:04:24 Speaker 1 But I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you something very interesting.

1:04:32 Speaker 2 How old were they?

1:04:33 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:04:33 Speaker 2 How old were they?

1:04:34 Speaker 1 I, uh, I was in my 40s.

1:04:37 Speaker 2 No, how old were the children that you lost?

1:04:39 Speaker 1 What? No, the, the

1:04:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:04:45 Speaker 1 And, and, and when my wife lost the first, you know, the, the, the late into pregnancies-

1:04:56 Speaker 2 Hmm

1:04:56 Speaker 1 ... I called Miriam Klein. The rebbe got on the phone.

1:05:08 Speaker 2 Really?

1:05:09 Speaker 1 I swear. Sure. The rebbe got on the phone. everything, you understand, that went through at that time. So that's just part.

1:05:35 Speaker 2 The rebbe spoke to you, or he was just listening?

1:05:37 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:05:38 Speaker 2 The rebbe spoke to you?

1:05:39 Speaker 1 The, the rebbe got on the phone and he told me, "Miriam Klein." I was there.

1:05:44 Speaker 2 You heard his voice, yes.

1:05:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, you understand?

1:05:50 Speaker 2 All the Well, what did that mean to you?

1:06:04 Speaker 1 What did it mean to me? That a rebbe is a person who's concerned-

1:06:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:06:15 Speaker 1 ... about another individual.

1:06:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:06:17 Speaker 1 That was not only the first time. In 1971, my sister, was in Worcester. She became very sick. They wanted to operate her, on her in Worcester, Massachusetts. And my sister says, "I wanna go to Mass General in Boston."

1:06:55 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:06:58 Speaker 1 Here I'm in a, a dilemma what to do. I called up, you understand, the maskirus, and I told Miriam Klein. The rebbe got on the phone again.

1:07:15 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:07:15 Speaker 1 And the rebbe says, "."

1:07:19 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:07:20 Speaker 1 So I took my sister, you understand, and I put her in an ambulance and we brought her, you understand

1:07:24 Speaker 2 So rebbe spoke directly to you on the phone?

1:07:26 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:07:27 Speaker 2 Wow.

1:07:28 Speaker 1 I mean, as the, uh, organization became, you understand, greater and bigger, in the earlier days, there was a more personally understand relationship between you and the rebbe himself.

1:07:52 Speaker 2 That's what I wanted to ask you. You had... You would go to yechidas often. You would speak to the rebbe.

1:07:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, wait. So I c- remember it was on a Friday afternoon, the rebbe gave out a kuntres, and I was in line because I had to get back to Worcester.

1:08:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:20 Speaker 1 Asher Katzenovsky at that time was coming out of the hospital. So I came to the Rebbe. Leib Groner wants to introduce me to the Rebbe. The Rebbe, "Ah, it's Dr. Joseph Fishman." So, uh-

1:08:40 Speaker 2 When was this?

1:08:40 Speaker 1 This was... I think Asher passed away in '89. This might have been in '87 then.

1:08:49 Speaker 2 So the later, the later years already.

1:08:51 Speaker 1 The later years already.

1:08:52 Speaker 2 And, and, and Leib Groner is introducing this as so and so from Worcester, Massachusetts.

1:08:58 Speaker 1 No. He wanted to introduce me where I've been.

1:09:02 Speaker 2 He didn't even start introducing.

1:09:03 Speaker 1 He didn't start intro- "Ah, it's Dr. Fishman." To make you feel good. After so many years, the Rebbe still knows that I'm around.

1:09:11 Speaker 2 Really sorry.

1:09:13 Speaker 1 So, so-

1:09:15 Speaker 2 This is Fishman

1:09:16 Speaker 1 ... the first yechidas I had with the Rebbe was Yud Aleph, Menachem Av, 12 Shin Chof Beis, when I got married, you understand, to this yechidas, my first wife. My first wife was a Lambdonis. She knew Chassidus.

1:09:40 Speaker 2 She came from a Lubavitcher home.

1:09:42 Speaker 1 No.

1:09:42 Speaker 2 No.

1:09:42 Speaker 1 No. She didn't. So I remember going into yechidas, and the truth is I didn't know the whole protocol.

1:10:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:05 Speaker 1 Es chahtoye a misck maskah im a sat.

1:10:08 Speaker 2 You sat down?

1:10:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:10:09 Speaker 2 But you and your wife?

1:10:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, and my former wife. Yeah.

1:10:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:12 Speaker 1 We should before chasan and kallah.

1:10:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:18 Speaker 1 So what actually made the greatest impression on me was the Rebbe asked every intere- every specific begder chasan. My wife's mother was a cripple. So the Rebbe, "How is she coming to the chasan? Who's gonna take her home?" All the intricate parts of the chasan he wanted to know.

1:10:55 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:10:56 Speaker 1 Just like a father would like to know, you understand, what's going on with the wedding of his child. And that made on me a very, very, very big impression.

1:11:07 Speaker 2 Was your father still alive at that point?

1:11:08 Speaker 1 Who?

1:11:09 Speaker 2 Your, your father was-

1:11:10 Speaker 1 My father's, my, my chasan ishkakumen. That's another advice in ganz.

1:11:14 Speaker 2 So, so you were alone 'cause-

1:11:15 Speaker 1 I, I, I, when I went in alone-

1:11:18 Speaker 2 I'm saying, but you were alone in the world also. Your mother had passed away.

1:11:21 Speaker 1 My mother, that's what my zayde and the baba did, yeah.

1:11:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

1:11:25 Speaker 2 But I'm saying maybe the Rebbe felt that he was-

1:11:28 Speaker 1 The, the, the Rebbe felt-

1:11:29 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:11:29 Speaker 1 ... my former wife was also very close to Rabbi Soloveitchik-

1:11:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:11:38 Speaker 1 ... in Boston. She had a four-year scholarship to S- to Stearns. So it was a question by her to go to Stearns or not to go, you understand, to Bais Yaakov. Rav Soloveitchik wanted her to go to Stearns.

1:12:06 Speaker 2 Weren't you in Worcester?

1:12:08 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:12:08 Speaker 2 You weren't in Worcester yet?

1:12:09 Speaker 1 I was in Worcester, but my wife wasn't in Worcester. She lived in Boston.

1:12:12 Speaker 2 So she wanted you to move to New York with her.

1:12:14 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no. We were-- This is by yechidas from Rebbe.

1:12:18 Speaker 2 Right. Stearns is in New York.

1:12:19 Speaker 1 But, but this would be-- this was before.

1:12:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 So-

1:12:24 Speaker 2 But if she goes to Stearns, you're gonna have to move to New York.

1:12:27 Speaker 1 She said, "Wait a minute."

1:12:28 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:12:28 Speaker 1 It was either to go to Stearns or to go to Bais Yaakov.

1:12:34 Speaker 2 In New York?

1:12:35 Speaker 1 In New York.

1:12:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:37 Speaker 1 Soloveitchik was pushing her to go, you know, to Stearns, so she wanted to... She had a close relationship with the Rebbe, and the Rebbe told her not to go, and my wife went to Bais Yaakov.

1:12:56 Speaker 2 Oh, this is before you got engaged.

1:12:58 Speaker 1 Just before I got engaged.

1:12:59 Speaker 2 I see. Not the yechidas.

1:13:00 Speaker 1 No. And-

1:13:02 Speaker 2 I see

1:13:02 Speaker 1 ... she didn't like Bais Yaakov because she felt she was on a higher modrigeh than what they told her over there.

1:13:14 Speaker 2 She was more academic.

1:13:16 Speaker 1 I mean, she, she was on a higher modrigeh academically more than in Bais Yaakov.

1:13:23 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:13:26 Speaker 1 So when we left yechidas, as we're going out, so the Rebbe says to her, "A geshn should give magurus Rabbi Soloveitchik."

1:13:36 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:13:37 Speaker 1 "Don't forget to give, you understand, regards to Rabbi Soloveitchik." So that was the first yechidas from Rebbe. Then it was customary to go into yechidas before Yom Im Alelis.

1:13:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:03 Speaker 1 One year it happened that I went to yechidas from Rebbe. It was before Purim.

1:14:15 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:14:19 Speaker 1 After the yechidas, the Rebbe asked me, "Wie veln die talmidim von yeshiva mekayeim zaynen mitzvos fun shalach manos u-matanos laivyim?" So I told the Rebbe that the girls would give shalach manos, you know, a orange or a can of soda or candy, a girl to another girl through a shliach. The same things happen with the boys. Then the Rebbe says, "Oh, but what is with matanos laivyim?" And the Rebbe says, "In der heynteke zayt iz zey a shver tzu gefinen a norerman" Very hard to find a poor person. So I said to the Rebbe, "The Rebbe meint mi she ein lo masayem zus, nikra oni?" So the Rebbe smiled. And it came out at the end that the kids should give, you understand, to two different pushkes, matanas l'eviyonim. But what amazed me more than anything else, here is a Rebbe, er hot a gantse velt auf sikh. What is he thinking about?

1:15:43 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:15:44 Speaker 1 How a Jewish kid who was still learning in yeshiva, how are they going to be able to be mekayem the mitzvos of halach manas matanas l'eviyonim?

1:15:57 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:16:01 Speaker 1 Because that's what a Rebbe is. Caring, very, very, very, very important. Then-

1:16:18 Speaker 4 So you felt there was a different quality of caring-

1:16:21 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:16:21 Speaker 4 ... by the Rebbe than you had seen by your previous-

1:16:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:16:23 Speaker 4 ... mechanchim. What was the difference? 'Cause you described beautifully before how much your earlier mechanchim also cared.

1:16:31 Speaker 1 Nah.

1:16:32 Speaker 4 What's the, what's the difference?

1:16:33 Speaker 1 Oh. The Rebbe really got me understanding mitzvat ge'onas. Kamay tovaga, chof of fabringen in a, in a velvel week. HaRebbe took a sim ha-masichtha.

1:17:06 Speaker 4 The Admor, yeah.

1:17:08 Speaker 1 End of masichtha. To elaborate on an end of a masichtha, sometimes a shtikel hagadah, and to give a fabringen on that shtikel hagadah for four or five, six hours. A zah hashkofa, a zah... makif in leerning I never saw in my whole life.

1:17:38 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:17:42 Speaker 1 And here the Rebbe sits and speaks for hours. No notes, no nothing, as geht kemayen a mezakavah. And this really took me, you understand, modik. 'Cause I never saw anything like it before. Chogehert shiyurim, you understand, veRabbon Kotler b'ge'erut, fun alemin, I never saw such a hekifah learning, you understand, like I saw from the Rebbe. L'meila, l'meila, l'meila, l'meila. So that's what really got me understanding. And then how I also saw how when inyanim affected, affected klal Yisroel in general, how the Rebbe came out as a manhig Yisroel. That's something which is missing today. There is no leader. The Rebbe is geven, is fashtushah de Meishah bedereinu. Was the Moshe Rabbeinu of our dor. A manhig Yisroel. And I was at a farbrengen when a HaRav Yosef Yitzchak Leventchik-

1:19:08 Speaker 4 Sure

1:19:09 Speaker 1 ... was at a farbrengen. And coming back, and he said, "I knew, you understand, the Rebbe in Berlin, he was a chacham gadole. Heint is a manhig and a nosi shebeYisroel."

1:19:26 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:19:28 Speaker 1 That's also, you understand, made a very, very, very... And then especially those summer farbrengens. Never had a chance to go to New York when the Rebbe decided every Shabbos farbrengen. I mean, to sit on a summer afternoon from 1:30 till almost to Mincha time, and hear the Rebbe, you understand, opik yerush and ma-amaimei kein chasidih, ke-kein chasidus vkol vkol. How come that doesn't affect a person?

1:20:06 Speaker 4 So, but, so was it the learning or was it the caring that more, most talked to you?

1:20:11 Speaker 1 No, I saw the Rebbe as a manhig.

1:20:15 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:20:18 Speaker 1 Not only interested, you understand, in yeshiva le and in shiyurim and in talala meshal halocha. I saw how the Rebbe, you understand, was a caring of a Jew from rosh shel shifteichem ve'chotvei etzechashah vemecha. That's what a real leader is.

1:20:40 Speaker 4 So that's, that's what pulled you in.

1:20:41 Speaker 1 That's, yeah.

1:20:44 Speaker 4 The, the ge'onas but also the caring.

1:20:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:20:47 Speaker 4 The combination.

1:20:48 Speaker 1 Ge'onas and ke'ilah.

1:20:49 Speaker 4 The combination.

1:20:50 Speaker 1 The combination of both.

1:20:51 Speaker 4 Wow. Hmm.

1:20:57 Speaker 1 So then I had a yechidus with the Chabad Hasidut maybe about 55 years ago, maybe more I had a business proposition

1:21:09 Speaker 4 While you were a teacher?

1:21:10 Speaker 1 While I was teaching for Moshe Kaltonovsky, he lived in Boston. To go into him a business in manufacturing sweaters. Being a teacher, you know, you get paid, you don't get paid.

1:21:27 Speaker 4 Yes.

1:21:29 Speaker 1 So I remember coming into the Rebbe, presenting him, you understand, with this business proposition. The Rebbe smiles, and he says, "Dos iz punkt dem hepekh vos du shraibst mir yeden chodesh." I used to write the Rebbe a doch every single month, vos di kinder lernen, where they're holding and learning and becholo becholo.

1:21:58 Speaker 4 Why did you write the doch? What, what motivated you?

1:22:02 Speaker 1 I wa- I wanted the Rebbe to know about my kids' learning.

1:22:05 Speaker 4 Hmm. Did the Rebbe answer to these dochim, or?

1:22:07 Speaker 1 Huh?

1:22:07 Speaker 4 Did the Rebbe answer to these dochs?

1:22:10 Speaker 1 I don't know if he answered, but I know that, I know that, that he, that he got them.

1:22:15 Speaker 4 That he read them, yes.

1:22:17 Speaker 1 So right away I knew that my tafkid be'or haYom was out of business. And tak, I remained in chinuch.

1:22:28 Speaker 4 So-

1:22:28 Speaker 1 And it's a very, very, very, very gratifying position in order to be able to give over our ayin to our talmidim.

1:22:40 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:41 Speaker 1 To be connected with the talmidim.

1:22:43 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:22:44 Speaker 1 And I have talmidim who's on rosh yeshivas, even abba kamar is a, a rosh yeshiva in a Litvishe yeshiva.

1:22:53 Speaker 4 Mamish?

1:22:54 Speaker 1 Mamish. And tak, a Chassidishe balabatim. I have talmides. I also taught in the Bais Hanna over thirty-five years. That abba Chan, you understand, Heinz, you understand, she's Babis, you understand, from my talmides. And I think I left a very, very positive effect on all of them.

1:23:20 Speaker 4 Wow. It's very interesting that when the Rebbe answered you about leaving chinuch, possibly leaving chinuch, he didn't tell you no. He just-- he, he, he showed you that... He, he said it a different way. It's interesting. He could have told you no.

1:23:34 Speaker 1 But to admit to you, ich hob gehat gute yorn where I made money too.

1:23:44 Speaker 4 On the side?

1:23:45 Speaker 1 I made, you know, I was at one time very heavily in the stock market.

1:23:52 Speaker 4 I see.

1:23:53 Speaker 1 Hob gehat gute yorn. But the money that I had, I used, you understand, for gute zachen.

1:23:59 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:24:00 Speaker 1 Only.

1:24:02 Speaker 4 So you look back with a lot of sipuk and, and pride at the, at the years of, in chinuch-

1:24:08 Speaker 1 Yes

1:24:08 Speaker 4 ... after six- sixty years.

1:24:11 Speaker 1 Sixty-one.

1:24:12 Speaker 4 Sixty-one years.

1:24:13 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Very gratified. I'm still very close, you understand?

1:24:17 Speaker 4 No regrets.

1:24:18 Speaker 1 I have one talmid, Levi Yisroel Abramowitz, for the past maybe fifty-five years, every single Motzei Shabbos Kodesh, he calls me.

1:24:30 Speaker 4 Hmm. Beautiful.

1:24:35 Speaker 1 And I have talmidim from way back, and I'm very, very close to this day. The Merchowiczs.

1:24:43 Speaker 4 Right.

1:24:43 Speaker 1 My, my talmid.

1:24:46 Speaker 4 Uh, you, you moved to Cleveland to be with them, yes?

1:24:48 Speaker 1 Uh, n-no, to Gary.

1:24:49 Speaker 4 Gary.

1:24:49 Speaker 1 Yes, to where the--

1:24:50 Speaker 4 To Gary.

1:24:51 Speaker 1 Richie, Richie, I'm still very-

1:24:52 Speaker 4 Right

1:24:53 Speaker 1 ... Richie. Zer gefern of the chassan, it's, um, in London. When he got married, I took the boys to London. His kid, Moshe Motkewitz, got bar mitzvah. I went to the bar mitzvah in London.

1:25:05 Speaker 4 Moshe lives in Israel.

1:25:07 Speaker 1 Uh, no, no, no. This is Richie's son. Richie's Moshe.

1:25:10 Speaker 4 Oh, Richie's Moshe.

1:25:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then I'm sitting in my house one day, he calls me on the phone. Zokte Rabbi Fishman, "My Moshe is getting married in Sydney, Australia. Kene kum bisort die chassanah." If I would come. No. I told him, "Schral, bede verso I gotta ask my wife." My wife couldn't come at that time because she was teaching. My wife taught physics and chemistry in public sc-- in high school. So then he calls me up, zokte Rabbi Fishman, "There's a sale. It's eight fifty a round trip." So I took, uh, Gary's son, Zaki, who was learning at Morristown at that time. Very, very, very, very hard to convince Harav Eli Shansky to let him off for the ten days, but he did. And I went to Sydney, Australia of the chassanah.

1:26:28 Speaker 4 With Zaki?

1:26:29 Speaker 1 With, with Zaki to the, to Richie's son's chassanah.

1:26:33 Speaker 4 I see.

1:26:33 Speaker 1 So it shows you what kind of a connection-

1:26:36 Speaker 4 Yeah

1:26:37 Speaker 1 ... ich hob with the talmidim.

1:26:39 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:26:40 Speaker 1 And that's how I spent, you understand, my time with them.

1:26:49 Speaker 4 Beautiful. Wow. You, you mentioned earlier that, uh, there was a, a time where there was a very personal relationship with the Rebbe, and then it changed. You mentioned the story later on with Leib Groner, uh, when-

1:27:05 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, uh-

1:27:06 Speaker 4 How did you see that?

1:27:07 Speaker 1 I mean, I mean, I have letters from the Rebbe.

1:27:13 Speaker 4 But how did you see that affect Lubavitch is my question?

1:27:17 Speaker 1 See, the Yechidim stopped in the Lamed.

1:27:23 Speaker 4 Right.

1:27:24 Speaker 1 You know. But then in Tov Mishemen, Tov Shemen Beis, the Rebbe started giving out dollars every single Sunday.

1:27:33 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:27:37 Speaker 1 I, I ma- I once had a big, big envelope full of them with the dolarn. And also you understand, I mean, uh, you had a chance to speak with the Rebbe very, very, you know, briefly if you wanted to speak to him about something. So that gave also, you understand, more of a relationship even in the, even in the, uh, uh, lately, as I remember, on a Sunday, it was after camp, and I happened to come with the Machankois, you understand, from the, from the camp, you know, the-

1:28:18 Speaker 4 Wh- which camp?

1:28:19 Speaker 1 The, we had a Gan Yisroel camp.

1:28:21 Speaker 4 In Worcester.

1:28:22 Speaker 1 In Worcester, day camp. So the counselors came with me, and I brought them to the Rebbe Sunday. The Rebbe gives me a dollar, says, "Dr. Dorsen, nokh a dollar far komishn."

1:28:33 Speaker 4 Far komishn.

1:28:36 Speaker 1 Far komishn.

1:28:39 Speaker 4 What, what, what would you say, uh, the Rebbe taught you? Did the Rebbe teach you something?

1:28:47 Speaker 1 Of course. The Rebbe taught me halacha Rashi bizos hazman. And the Rebbe taught me, you understand, how a Jew is supposed to be a chossid.

1:28:58 Speaker 4 What do you mean?

1:29:11 Speaker 1 What does it mean? A chossid is an individual who go the extra mile.

1:29:23 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:29:29 Speaker 1 Not only in, in Torah and mitzvos, but in regard to a fellow Jew. Caring about another Jew, very, very important. And to learn mamash the Torahs from the Rebbe. I only-- I don't only learn the Torahs from the Rebbe, I learn by the Mitteler Rebbe-

1:29:58 Speaker 4 Sure

1:29:59 Speaker 1 ... I, uh, I'm a big fan of Torah Chaim.

1:30:02 Speaker 4 Oh, the Mitteler Rebbe.

1:30:02 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

1:30:04 Speaker 4 That's your gem.

1:30:05 Speaker 1 I, I, I enjoy it a lot.

1:30:09 Speaker 4 You like HaChovah.

1:30:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, I like the HaChovah. But you know, I mean, learning is also very, something very important that makes you understand farshat ha-chossid, farshaitia. And I'm a very-- I, I consider myself a very simple Jew. A prush ut yid bin ich. I'm pamp. I never look for any kavod in my life. I don't need it, and I don't want it.

1:30:37 Speaker 4 You don't want it?

1:30:38 Speaker 1 No.

1:30:39 Speaker 4 What do you want?

1:30:41 Speaker 1 Ich vil, I daven in the shul, Anshei Lubavitch. Yungeleit.

1:30:49 Speaker 4 Here in Cleveland?

1:30:50 Speaker 1 Here in Cleveland. They give me such chayas. And amongst them, I become very, very, very close to some of them. And I see here are people where sort of from Lubavitch came on the shliach, and the Rebbe, they never saw the Rebbe at all.

1:31:15 Speaker 4 Right.

1:31:17 Speaker 1 And they're emes chassidish Yidden, but they're in the shichas.

1:31:25 Speaker 4 How do you explain that?

1:31:27 Speaker 1 How do I explain that? Az a tzaddik di yid parter min ha'olam becomes yatom bechayei. And I see it. I see it, you understand, their devotion and their hiskashus, which amazes me. Ich, if somebody comes to me and says to me, "I hope I live to see Mashiach." But if somebody ever came over to me, "Lachei meshiach, lachei, agich shome, shome teves." Did you experience Mashiach? I'll tell him 100% I did. Ich hagaze Mashiach gam ani. Ich hagazem farshiete ve the shechinah medaberes mit tich grenaish lamisha. I saw him, my own eyes. Ich hagalebt dem Mashiach zeiten. Those people might disagree with me, but that's how I look at it. I haven't been in the oil for a long time. Basically, I'm not mobile these days, and I have to go to New York with my wheelchair, mit a walkers, mit alles. But when I used to go to the oil before I left, I would say, "Rebbe, du host uns gezogt, 'Li'al teledru, li'al tedivelu.' Rebbe, you told us we're the last generation of galus." It's about time both get delivered. Delivered! I hope you understand, Moshe. Efsha, maybe now. It look, it looks like moshiach ziten, but it should be mikoyach al ha'poel, Moshe.

1:33:46 Speaker 4 Amen. All right, this, this has been, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you very, very much.

1:33:51 Speaker 1 I, I, I can go, uh-

1:33:53 Speaker 4 You can go on if you'd like.

1:33:54 Speaker 1 I would like... I, I, I, maybe a, a few more interesting thing.

1:33:58 Speaker 4 Of course.

1:33:59 Speaker 1 I can go to.

1:34:00 Speaker 4 Okay, let's go.

1:34:03 Speaker 1 So I live in Worcester, Massachusetts. In Worcester, Massachusetts, on a given two Nusach... Years back, there were two Nusach Hari shuls. One was called Nusach Agudas Achim Bnei Yankiv. In Agudas Achim Bnei Yankiv, the majority of the Yidden came from Mogilev, from Lubavitch and Orsha and Dubrovna, Rogachov, Chernigov, Nezhin. I know Yidden was on a ...? From Haditz. The majority of the Yidden came from Smorlon.

1:34:46 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:34:47 Speaker 1 Yudel Krinsky's zeide and bubbe lived on a farm in Auburn, Massachusetts.

1:34:56 Speaker 4 Right.

1:34:58 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe given, had Rabbi Zur Horovitz, who was, you understand, he lived in Smorlon, and they brought him to Smorlon that he should become the Rov in that shul. In that shul, there was a Jew, his name was Nachum Leib Matan. Nachum Leib Matan's father was a Rabbi Moshe Ben Yomah the Melamed from the Fridyker Rebbe. He taught the Rebbe Loshen. He taught the Rebbe Ksive. He also, the Rebbe from Shmuel Eidon hired him to listen to the Fridyker Rebbe Mishnayos Baal Peh. So Rabbi Nachum Leib told me, "I ...? Mishnayos Baal Peh zusammen", and he called the Fridyker Rebbe with his name. Says, "What's the given the difference? What was the difference between me and the Fridyker Rebbe?" He said, "The Fridyker Rebbe knew shisha sidram Mishim ep shat, and I didn't." And he told me that he used to s- transcribe the ma'amogim from the Rebbe from Shmuel Eidon. In Taf Reish Ayin, he decided to come to America. So he went into the Rebbe from Shmuel Eidon, betten a broche of, uh, America. The Rebbe from Shmuel Eidon asked him, "Where are you going?" S'okhte, "I'm going Worcester." And the Rebbe from Shmuel Eidon told him, "Worcester is a Yiddishe shtot." Also, his father, Rabbi Moshe Ben Yomah the Melamed, lived in Worcester for a time, and then he went to New York. There's a whole inyan between him and the Fridyker Rebbe. He lived in New York. When the Rebbe, Fridyker Rebbe came in Taf Reish Tsadik Petes-

1:37:08 Speaker 4 The first time.

1:37:10 Speaker 1 The first time. So Rabbi Moshe Ben Yomah lived in New York at that time. So he came to see the Fridyker Rebbe, so he told Simpson, "Please don't tell the Fridyker Rebbe who I am." He says that as soon as he walked into the Fridyker Rebbe, the Fridyker Rebbe, "Oi, Moshe Ben Yomah the Melamed." So that was that shul. There was another, another Nusach Hari shul where there were Litvishe for Rakashik and Poniedl, Kamai, they davened Nusach Hari. Amongst them were Yidden who was on a given Lubavitcher. They were Kopiste.

1:38:08 Speaker 4 Oh, yeah. In Worcester.

1:38:10 Speaker 1 And Mendel Ruch told me, you understand, al ha'yinga, the ...? In Ladi, tzum rebbe, to the Ladier. So there was a mishpocha that davened-

1:38:26 Speaker 4 They got along, the Lubavitchers and the Kopiste in Worcester?

1:38:29 Speaker 1 Well, uh, at that time, you understand, Moshe, she given later on.

1:38:33 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:38:33 Speaker 1 In fact, uh, uh, uh, Mendel Ruch, I lived with him as a... When I was single. Told me, you understand, that on Shabbos, there was a ...? Share with a shochet. He used to put his hand underneath his chin like this and ...? And chazak in Chassidus, you understand, every single Shabbos. There was a mishpocha there-

1:38:59 Speaker 4 Which Chassidus? Uh, Lubavitch or Kopust?

1:39:01 Speaker 1 Uh, whatever he had. Uh, Chassidus, Chassidus. Now, whatever, whatever word it was.

1:39:07 Speaker 4 Right.

1:39:07 Speaker 1 Chassidus Chabad.

1:39:10 Speaker 4 Right.

1:39:10 Speaker 1 There was a mishpocha there was m- whose name was Yaffa. So one day, I'm sitting in my house, and this divine Yaffa calls me on the phone. She says, "Chaim, one of my friends passed away," if I could take her to the levaya. It was on the Hope Cemetery, an old cemetery in Worcester. Not a Yiddishe cemetery, but, you know, the, the, the first Yidden that came here bought, you know, plots of land. So I brought her home. She says, "Chaim, maybe you come to my house for a cup of tea." And I notice on the bureau, there were ksavim and teshuvim. I took a look. There was a Shaar HaYichud, original from the Mitteler Rebbe.

1:40:02 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:40:03 Speaker 1 And a Tamir from Taf Reish Lamed Daled.

1:40:08 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:40:11 Speaker 1 So I said to her, "Can I take a look at them?" She says, "Take them, Chaim." Then there was a whole bunch of Kislevim. So I says, "Can I look at them?" She says, "Chaim, take them." I went-

1:40:25 Speaker 4 Hmm

1:40:25 Speaker 1 ... through the letters. I found a letter that the Rebbenish Mosha Eden sent to her father in Worcester,

1:40:38 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:40:38 Speaker 1 1930. To me, I gave the Rebbe the Shah HaYichud as a batona. And to me, it was to bring this letter to the Rebbe.

1:41:00 Speaker 4 The letter from the Rebbenish Mosha Eden?

1:41:01 Speaker 1 For that. So I had yechidas, you understand. I used to go in before Rosh Chodesh Nissan for my birthday. I brought the Rebbe the letter. The Rebbe explains to me the whole tochen for yen a brief about the letter. At that time, there was a whole machlikess, who should be the head of Kol Chabad. There was a Rav Shmer, Shmeranoich Schneerson, who the Rebbe Marash made him for a rebbe in Bobruisk. But after the kopaster was nistalik, he became also a rebbe. He had, you know, a yeshiva in Bobruisk. Harav Zevinot, yeshiva. And there were other lababish rabbonim that learned in yeshiva with him also. So the Rebbe explained to me at that time there was a machlikess between Rav Shmeranoich, the Bobruisker, and the Rebbe Nishmat Eden, who should be the head of Kol Chabad. And the letter that the Rebbe Nishmat Eden sent to Rav Zalman Duv Yaffe in Worcester about monies of Esroim, where they should go to.

1:42:55 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:42:56 Speaker 1 To the, in Kol Chabad. So the Rebbe explained to me the whole letter. The Rebbe thanked me three times for the letter, and he says, "Efshe hot yene froi noch berivn ve tzi visna. Tzi ve az..." The, I'm gonna get the loshon right. "Tzi ve visna de brifn vet onkomen tz'mir, ve zaynen zehr, zehr fein." If you, just so you know, if, if she has other letters, "Ah, the brifn onkomen tz'mir, ve zayn zehr."

1:43:38 Speaker 4 When, when you're remembering the loshon just now, are you remembering the whole yechidas? You're-

1:43:43 Speaker 1 Yechida, whole yechidas.

1:43:43 Speaker 4 You're remembering the image? The, the scene?

1:43:46 Speaker 1 The scene.

1:43:47 Speaker 4 Well, how, what does the scene look like to you?

1:43:49 Speaker 1 The scene, uh, here with the Rebbe in the center, and-

1:43:52 Speaker 4 No, explain it. I wasn't there.

1:43:53 Speaker 1 I explain how the Rebbe took the letter, read it, and explained to me the tochen again.

1:43:59 Speaker 4 But describe the room the way it's in your eyes.

1:44:02 Speaker 1 Oh, the room. The Rebbe's room was never, it was not very mesoradic, except in front of the desk. I remember once going to yechidas. After yechidas, I looked around. So the Rebbe told me, "Efslik dot zwie in a hob yor armet."

1:44:20 Speaker 4 You saw piles of, of letters.

1:44:21 Speaker 1 Letters of my... Yeah.

1:44:24 Speaker 4 The Rebbe told you there's two and a half years of work here.

1:44:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:44:27 Speaker 4 That in order to get through it.

1:44:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. So that was the, you know, the atmosphere at that time, that I, uh, that, you know, "Az yene froir ve visne ad brifn, ven onkomen tz've ve zayn tz'fridn." That was the loshon.

1:44:45 Speaker 4 What was the feeling that you had when you walked into yechidas? Was it, uh, fear, uh, apprehension? Was it simcha? Was it-

1:44:52 Speaker 1 Ah.

1:44:54 Speaker 4 Was it warmth?

1:44:55 Speaker 1 The warmth.

1:44:56 Speaker 4 It was warm.

1:44:57 Speaker 1 The warmth. You understand?

1:44:58 Speaker 4 Even though you're, at this point, you're standing. You're not sitting down.

1:45:01 Speaker 1 I'm standing. Yeah, yeah.

1:45:02 Speaker 4 But you feel it's warm. You feel it's warm.

1:45:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Then I remember going to yechidas. Have I in my letters? After the yechidas, I said to the Rebbe, "Ich hob a kasha of a maise." So the Rebbe says, "Nu?" So I had told him that a Furkan had given out schmuzes for Purim.

1:45:45 Speaker 4 Right.

1:45:46 Speaker 1 In the schmuzes for Purim, in the first stories, there's a story how the Baalshem Tov was going, you understand, with his son-in-law, Rabbi Yechezkel Ashkenazi the Daitschel And there is the trunking of warden. He drowned. And the whole story is how the Baal Shem Tov sent in, send a shliach, you understand, to the city, and that he should be buried, but nobody should be megale, you understand, where his kever is. That was the whole story. The whole story with that, niflad afterwards. So I said to the Rebbe, "In Beis Rebbe, there's an episode, it was on Purim, that the Maggid sent the Alter Rebbe to Rebbe Chiel Ashkenazi on Purim, and the Alter Rebbe went. He told him, "Mateh, ani avi levush malchus." And of them, the Al- Alter Rebbe built his Maamer in Torah Ora, ani vil. How could it be? If he died, you understand, bechaim of the Baal Shem Tov, how could he be alive in the time, you understand, of the Maggid? So the Rebbe says to me, "Ebshins dos ke'ein, the seven toiras from the Baal Shem Tov." You know what that is? No? All right. If you look into Hayom Yom, a chail, there's a whole episode how the Rebbe Rashab heard seven toiras from the Baal Shem Tov himself.

1:47:53 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:47:54 Speaker 1 On Bechor Yaki Sova Yalo Eretz. So I, so the Rebbe says, "Maybe dos is ke'ein, the sheva toiras, like the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden heard from the Baal Shem Tov." It's a hot story. I gotta be truthful, I didn't buy it. And we went back and forth, till the end of the story was, "Efshi yen haMeise v'rafol kan nishkan emes haMeise." The story doesn't end there. When I left, the Rebbe says to me like this, "Dos visin ah the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden hot oif gehat azoch a guest." You know that the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden many, many times had guests, was anegul-

1:48:57 Speaker 4 From the, from heaven

1:48:58 Speaker 1 ... from olam ikshut. Many, many years went by. They finally published the Friediker Rebbe sichas from Tefreitz Tzadok to Tzadok Tes. Looking through the sichas, in Tefreitz Tzadok Lov on Chai Elul, the Friediker Rebbe writes how these seven toiras of the Baal Shem Tov that the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden heard, how it came about. And it went as follows. "Eide es is n'tzatzim gevorm dem Maimer bam Rebbe Nishmat Seiden," before the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden became one with the Maimer, he would always go to the oil of the Rebbe Maharash to get the okay to say the Maimer. It happened once, Bam Rebbe Nishmat Seiden is nis, nistarzim gevorm dem Maimer. And he went to the Rebbe Maharash, you understand, to ask for the okay. Didn't get the okay. And then Bam Rebbe Nishmat Seiden is nistarzim gevorm dem Maimer. So the Friediker Rebbe writes like this, "Beem ish nater gekent op von de gantze zach bei zich in shtub." But he went again to the oil of the Rebbe Maharash. The Rebbe Maharash gives him the okay to say the Maimer. After that, the Rebbe Maharash comes to the Rebbe Nishmat Seiden and he says to him, "Since you made that extra effort to come to ask me to say over the Maimer, yetz kum lameh yetz gein un garnaydin heren di toiras von de Baal Shem Tov."

1:51:54 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:51:55 Speaker 1 And that's how the Reshmus Rebbe Nishmat Seiden heard the seven toiras from the Baal Shem. That's how it came to be.

1:52:03 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:52:03 Speaker 1 So I learned how these, you understand, these toiras became into being Then I was learning the from the Rabbi in . I open up the back. By the Freidiker Rebbe says like this, "Es shi do drey zachin vos a Litvak ken ton." What were the three things? Number one, when it was on Purim and the Mizrachi Maggid sent the Alter Rebbe in Purim to go, you understand, to whom? To Rav Yechezkel Ashkenazi. Leaving, you understand, you know, he could have said no, not to go because Purim but, but yet he went, you understand. The other thing was that a Litvak can turn every single Shabbos before... So the Shabbos, they would put out plates of fish for all the talmidim.

1:53:44 Speaker 4 By Litvak, you mean the Alter Rebbe?

1:53:46 Speaker 1 The Alter... Uh, uh, uh, for the Maggid. For the Maggid. So that-

1:53:50 Speaker 4 But the word Litvak here is referring to the Alter Rebbe.

1:53:52 Speaker 1 Yes, that Litvak referred to the Alter Rebbe.

1:53:54 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:53:56 Speaker 1 So the Alter Rebbe once, once went on a Friday afternoon and of course he could have the fish from the Maggid and get. That's the third... That's the second thing that a Litvak can do. The third thing that a Litvak can do is like this. The talmidim of the Maggid each Talmud had a time to stand by the door of the Maggid's, you understand, room. And the Alter Rebbe would let anybody go in there, even though it might have been a restrict- a restricted time. So then I became clear that what? That he was there and on a neshamah and in a guf, the Rav Yechezkel Ashkenazi. So that's some of the interesting yechidus that I had.

1:54:55 Speaker 4 Hmm. Wow. Wow. Thank you so much. This has, this has been, this has been a lot of fun.

1:55:04 Speaker 1 It, it-

1:55:04 Speaker 4 And thank, thank you for sharing

1:55:06 Speaker 1 ... it, it's been a lot of fun for me, and, uh, the only message that I could give is-

1:55:17 Speaker 4 You've given a lot of messages already

1:55:18 Speaker 1 ... that it should become keyn soll khoshach, and we should be zoche. Number one, et zemach David avdekhu meir asmiakh biet Meshiakh. Then mekabees nidechei shivas golyus, we should all go to, and we should be zoche to the Beis Hamikdash hashlishi bimheira beyomeinu. Now. Thank you.

1:55:54 Speaker 4 Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Rabbi Fishman. Thank you very much. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn and Navahar, and is used with their permission.