Ep. 44 // "Rosh Hashana 5785" w/ Rabbi Yosef Katzman

00:00 Speaker 1 Tekias after Yom Tov was, I don't know how to relate to it. I don't know how to call it. I don't know what it is.

00:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

00:09 Speaker 1 To me, Tekias is the Rebbe. All of a sudden, what?

00:14 Speaker 2 Right.

00:15 Speaker 1 You know, pull your talis over your head and cry.

00:17 Speaker 2 Right.

00:18 Speaker 1 What can I tell a young kid happens during Tekias? I can only tell them, "You should know the Rebbe is there with you, and the Rebbe's blowing for you that Tekias. The fact that you don't see it is either because you don't need to see it or because you're connecting with it on a higher level. I don't know."

00:41 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. Hope this works. Thank you, Rabbi Yossel Katzman, for, uh, coming on the podcast and your patience as I deal with this, uh, technical delay. We are here in Crown Heights a few days before Tisha. And, uh, I want to thank you again for making the time before Yom Tov to sit down for the podcast. Um, I think you reached out to me probably close to a year ago now. About, about, uh, probably a couple months-

01:36 Speaker 1 Close to the beginning.

01:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, a couple months after the podcast began, uh, that you were listening to it, which at the time did catch me by surprise. And, uh, yeah, I thought that, um, it'd be interesting. And we've, we've had a c- we've had a intermittent conversation since, on and off, about some of the things that were discussed, and I thought it would be an interesting way to close out the year to kind of bring it full circle to have you on. So, uh, that said, um, I know that many people may think they know who you are already, but, uh, they probably don't. So why don't we begin, why don't we begin... Or, or they know where you come from, and they know your father and your mother and, you know, the, the whole yiches. But why don't you, why don't you tell them in your own words, uh, where you come from and your, your story?

02:32 Speaker 1 First of all, I'd be remiss if I don't, uh, update some of the comments I said to you close to a year ago.

02:41 Speaker 2 Okay.

02:42 Speaker 1 I noticed that you yourself are very surprised where this podcast took you. I have to tell you, I'm not a fan because I enjoy the entertainment. I am a fan 'cause I think you educated me. You literally... I, I don't think you have an idea. Someone... I am-- Let's go to your question. I am born and bred in Crown Heights. I'm one of these relics. Very few of us around. Most of us went on shlichas, and I was from the few that stayed here. Okay, I worked in the mosdos, and I had my shlichas from the Rebbe. This is all true, but still, I'm local. And I'm not experiencing on a day-to-day basis shlichas world. And also, as you get older, you are not experiencing the excitement of Crown Heights, of 770, the way you used to. You just get older. That's just a fact of life. And going through 30 years after Yom Tov is no picnic. It's a rough ride. But the, as years go by, year by year, you see the next generation. You can almost say the next generation after that growing up. You are blown away by what is going on, what you hear, what you see. You learn so much. It, it, like, reinforces everything the Rebbe taught us. We thought it was a pie in the sky, to use some vulgar language. It's nice in the books. It's spiritual. It's holy. But what has that got to do with real day-to-day life?

04:52 Speaker 2 Right.

04:53 Speaker 1 Now it's all unfolding.

04:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

04:56 Speaker 1 And you, I must say, helped me, gave me a window by some of your guests. I mean, you've had a, a very broad spectrum of guests from senior Chassidim, uh, from, you can call them from two generations ago-

05:17 Speaker 2 Right

05:17 Speaker 1 ... till today's little young kids, and I am just blown away.

05:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:24 Speaker 1 The Rebbe is so powerful and so living and so leading us that that's why I reached out to you in the beginning, and I'd be remiss if I s- don't thank you for it because I don't think that way. My generation doesn't think that way.

05:45 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that way?

05:46 Speaker 1 Takes a very... A lot of adjusting. Okay. I'll give you a... I'll say something-

05:52 Speaker 2 What, what do you mean by that way?

05:54 Speaker 1 I will give you a little explanation what I mean.

05:59 Speaker 2 Okay.

05:59 Speaker 1 I hope you're not gonna feel offended. But some of your questions make me cringe. They really make me cringe How can somebody ask this? How can somebody say this? When we grew up, everything was just taken for granted. You don't ask such questions. My father had a, a, an amazing expression. Whenever I think about it, it's like, wow.

06:29 Speaker 2 Your father's name was?

06:30 Speaker 1 My father was Raziel Katzman. He was, uh... In personality, he was a big mashpia, but in life, most of his life, he was a businessman. Uh, he was an evil till his last day. I mean, that didn't change even in business. And Chassidish Habrenga was, like, his thing. And he was very silent. And then with his silence, he was mashpia more-

07:01 Speaker 2 Hmm

07:02 Speaker 1 ... than anybody could with words. And I was, uh, younger, and I was rebellious, and I was questioning, and I was challenging, whether it's the system or the, um, establishment. I was that type of guy, and I used to ask questions. And whenever I would say it in front of my father, not only me, every one of us, all my siblings, his response was, "Un az du fashsteysht nisht iz vos?" You know, you don't have to understand everything.

07:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:39 Speaker 1 And we actually lived like that. You don't understand. "S'gor nisht geshen." Nothing happened. Things are expected of you, you should do it, and you're fine. You don't question. What I hear by you, you ask questions that are taboo. But you know what? You are eliciting responses that if this question wouldn't be q- asked... I once heard from a wise man, he used to say, "The dumbest question is the question never asked."

08:22 Speaker 2 Hmm.

08:23 Speaker 1 If we were fine without questions, fine. That doesn't mean that it works for everybody.

08:30 Speaker 2 Right.

08:30 Speaker 1 And it doesn't. So now I'm listening. He's questioning, what's gonna be the response? And I, I can't start to tell you how much I learned from the different guests on, on, on every level, every age. It's just reinforced everything I think of the Rebbe, everything I believe in the Rebbe. It reinforces my identity as a Lubavitcher, as a Chassid of the Rebbe. It's like, what can I tell you? I can only say thank you.

09:09 Speaker 2 Well, first of all, you're very welcome. Um, you're very welcome. I, it, it's... I'm also, I'm not offended. Just, just to be- ... just to be clear, I'm not offended. Uh, not because I'm trying to be a smart aleck, uh, with the questions or with my response now, but, you know, uh, I, I don't believe, I don't believe that the questions are intended to be disrespectful, but I do understand why the questions would come as a surprise to many people or uncomfortable to many people, especially people, like you said, that are not used to asking or thinking this way. So, you know, I, I'm comfortable with asking them for the most part. Um, pretty much for all of it. If I wasn't comfortable with it, I probably wouldn't pu- wouldn't publish it. Um, but, you know, I understand at the same time that people might find them unusual or, or maybe even questionable, and, and that's okay. That's, that's, that's something I have to live with, and if people get upset or they tell me sometimes, it's okay. Uh-

10:17 Speaker 1 I wanna say-

10:18 Speaker 2 Yeah

10:18 Speaker 1 ... I don't, I'm not thinking of them in a negative sense at all.

10:23 Speaker 2 No, I know. I know. But-

10:24 Speaker 1 I, I completely-

10:25 Speaker 2 I'm not-

10:26 Speaker 1 But the... Originally, it takes getting used to.

10:31 Speaker 2 You know, just a year ago, I was sitting right here recording the intro to the podcast, and at the time it was just an idea. Sitting here today thinking about where the podcast has gone, I'd be lying if I told you that I had any of that in mind when I began a year ago. The podcast has led me to travel across the country, out of the country, to meet so many fascinating people, most of whom I'd never heard of before, certainly not met before, and to spend hours with them hearing their absolutely fascinating stories and ideas and perspectives, and then of course to share it with thousands of people around the world. One of the most precious parts of working on this project has been the response that I've gotten from people around the world. The graciousness and kindness and positivity has been something that I never dreamt of. Over the past year, this podcast has been completely self-funded, which is something I have absolutely zero regrets about. It has been an absolute blast, a journey of a lifetime, an experience of a lifetime, and when I think about it, probably the most important work I've ever done. But as I look towards the coming year or years of this project, God willing, I now invite you, the listeners of Homesick For Lubavitch, to take part in making this project more sustainable. So I've created a website, hflpodcast.com, where there will be a full archive and library of all the episodes of Homesick For

12:05 Speaker 2 Lubavitch, and there will also be a link there to support the podcast either with a monthly contribution Or a one-time contribution, either of which will help make this podcast something that will be permanent, something that will be sustainable, something that will grow, something that will continue to make all of us more proud and more hopeful and more grateful to be who we are. Why, why do you think, why do you think... 'Cause to me it's, it's not, it's not at all... Like, another reason why it's not offensive at all is because I'm, I'm quite convinced for a long time already that these questions were not asked in the past, you know? So I'm... I, I... Like, I understand that they're, that they're not something that people are f- are used to. And, uh, and to me the question is: why do you think people didn't ask questions? I mean, I understand the vort of your father that it's, it's okay not to understand. I think, you know, if I had to, if I had to, if I had to think about it, I, I don't feel like I oppose that, that statement, um, or people that I know oppose that statement. It's not like, it's not like people today are convinced that they're going to understand everything at the other side of these questions, or that not understanding everything is kilur problem. Uh, you know, we understand that life is big and complicated and especially when you're talking about, uh, Yiddishkeit, Gottlichkeit, these kind of

13:31 Speaker 2 things, you're not gonna get to the bottom of it. But at the same time, at least speaking for myself, just because I can't understand everything doesn't mean I should stop trying to understand as much as I can. And more importantly, I don't look for questions. I'm not looking to, oh, you know, oh, here's ano- uh, where can I find another question? The questions that I ask-

13:53 Speaker 1 Can you rock the boat?

13:54 Speaker 2 Yeah. How can I rock the boat? How can I be provocative? Or, you know, maybe I'm out of questions, so let me, let me think for a few minutes. Do I have another question that I can just come up with? For the most part, the questions I arrive at are just organic, you know? Either they're questions that are sitting with me in general, or in the course of a conversation somebody says something and that question comes to my mind, right? So it, it's, it's not that I am looking to ask questions for the sake of questions, it's I'm looking to not ignore the questions that come to me, which seems to be also quite novel. I mean, not for... Not that I'm unique, but like you said, the time is different, that people didn't used to tolerate this kind of questioning, or they saw it as, like, a problem. Why do you think, why do you think that is?

14:42 Speaker 1 I have a few answers.

14:43 Speaker 2 Okay.

14:43 Speaker 1 Number one, there is the established statement, I think from the Radatz, who said, "Gefelt dir ye, gefelt dir nisht, azoy, azoy iz der Inyan." This is a statement that I've repeated quite often, although in different contexts. But the statement still exists, "Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is. Just follow along."

15:08 Speaker 2 Okay.

15:08 Speaker 1 Accept. Kabbalah so. That's something that some of the mashpiyim tried to convey.

15:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

15:20 Speaker 1 Just accept. And I'll give you an example. I had two mashpiyim who would say left their mark on me. Not that I'm the biggest mushpa, but I had two mashpiyim, total opposites.

15:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

15:37 Speaker 1 I remember I was pretty young, I was probably 15. Started learning Chassidus, uh, you know, a little more serious, maybe 14. We're learning Kuntras HaMa'ayan, and as you go along, he starts talking about the middas and Ein Sof, and you go higher and higher. And he explains that Ein Sof starts at a certain level higher than Briyah, let's say. Higher than Briyah there's nothing to talk about. There it's Ein Sof. Up until Briyah, the lower worlds, there are definitions, ese sfitas, and so on. It's still in my mind from then, many years ago. Then we proceed, we start talking about Atzilus. All of a sudden in Atzilus, wait a minute, there are again ten Sefiros. Hmm. I ran to my mashpiais and I asked them, "What is this? How could there be ten Sefiros in Atzilus?" You know, and I built up my question with all the excitement. He heard me out very nicely, very warmly. Then he responded, "Wern weiter."

17:02 Speaker 2 Wern weiter.

17:02 Speaker 1 By me saying it, you probably can figure out this is Rabina Korf. Wern weiter. Don't worry about it. Don't get stuck.

17:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

17:12 Speaker 1 Keep moving. Either he meant eventually you'll figure it out, or he meant don't-

17:20 Speaker 2 Right

17:20 Speaker 1 ... start questioning and nitpicking. Okay. That was a lesson in Kabbalah so. And he really, he left a very strong mark on me. I mean, Rabina was, was something else. His Kabbalah so, you saw on him the Kabbalah so, just his presence-

17:39 Speaker 2 Right

17:40 Speaker 1 ... influenced you. Then I had another mashpia, I think it was a year later. We were learning Derech M'tztasecha. And there again, there's a whole build-up in Shaar Mitzvat Tefillah, or maybe it was I don't remember. Also this type of thing as we are progressing and things got like, first you told me that this is only on lower levels. I don't remember the exact detail-

18:05 Speaker 2 Right

18:05 Speaker 1 ... but it was the same type of thing. I said, "Oh, now I'm gonna ask my other mashpia." He came over and he heard me out. His face started beaming, and he's listening. He says, "Good ‹foreign language›. Go bring me this Sefer, my boy, and go bring me that Sefer." He started showing me here and there, and he gave me what to do for the next few days to learn and to be able to digest and understand and dissect and... His response, what did that do to me? It gave me such a highest in learning Chassidus, and I'm indebted to him till today. I'll say his name, Rav Shlomo Majeski, who, in my opinion, was a big loss for the boys when he switched to Machon Hannah.

18:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

18:58 Speaker 1 It was a big loss for Lubavitch, I think, for the boys. His ‹foreign language›, he gave me such highest in Chassidus. You can't imagine. For me, ‹foreign language› Chassidus, first of all, learning inside, and then ‹foreign language› till today.

19:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:15 Speaker 1 I still ‹foreign language›. I credit him for that. He gave me a... So I feel here, this one gave me ‹foreign language›. Don't get ex-- Don't be full of yourself.

19:28 Speaker 2 Right.

19:28 Speaker 1 Don't be... And the other one says, "Let me take you and build you."

19:32 Speaker 2 Right.

19:33 Speaker 1 And they were both right.

19:34 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:34 Speaker 1 They both had a message.

19:36 Speaker 2 Right.

19:37 Speaker 1 That's one answer, which I think is part of the education of Chassidus.

19:42 Speaker 2 But it's not really an answer because like you said, in your times, people didn't ask questions. About, about, about Chassidus, yeah, but, but about, about these things, no.

19:53 Speaker 1 No, no. This was a... So I wanna say it's broader than that.

19:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

19:57 Speaker 1 It's broader than, which maybe my second part will also-

20:01 Speaker 2 Okay

20:01 Speaker 1 ... give some of the-

20:02 Speaker 2 I'm here. Yeah

20:04 Speaker 1 The Rebbe himself demanded from us things beyond comprehension. I mean, I'm sure you heard of enough stories when the Rebbe asked people whether it was to go on Shlichus.

20:16 Speaker 2 Right.

20:17 Speaker 1 And, and there was a, a, a slight hesitation. You know the story of the Arizal, right? The Arizal told his Talmidim, "Let's go to Yerushalayim."

20:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:29 Speaker 1 And they were in Tzfat, and, uh, they said, "Okay, we'll just tell our wives or ask our wives." Arizal was upset. We blew it. Asking your wife, that's Halakha, no?

20:41 Speaker 2 Right.

20:41 Speaker 1 It's not like... When the Rebbe asked somebody to go on Shlichus, and whether he hesitated 'cause he has to ask the wife or the parents, the mother-in-law, the father-in-law, you blew it.

20:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:59 Speaker 1 The famous, beautiful, most beautiful story that illustrates what the Rebbe did appreciate, I think, in my opinion, the, the, what w-would, I would call the Rebbe's boys. The Rebbe's boys, sort of the first Shluchim in a sense. In a sense, they were the first. They weren't obviously the first, but they were, uh, Gershon Mendel Grorellic, Nachman Sudak, and Leibel Raskin. I think they are symbolic because they went to all different places in the world, and they were best of friends. The way they approached going to Shlichus was like Grorellic is begging the Rebbe, begging the Rebbe. Beg-- "Please, please send me. Please, please send me." And then there was this story that it was told. He was locked up in, in, in... He was working in Yeshiva, uh, in New York, I think he was working.

21:55 Speaker 2 Oh. Because of the podcast, we know that it was really Mrs. Grorellic who was begging.

22:00 Speaker 1 Uh-huh. I'm fine with both.

22:02 Speaker 2 I, I say-

22:02 Speaker 1 I'm fine with both.

22:03 Speaker 2 I say-

22:04 Speaker 1 That's even better

22:04 Speaker 2 ... a good, a good honor from the podcast.

22:06 Speaker 1 And, but, but I think that, um, Rabbi Hadakov told Gershon Mendel, "You can't go anywhere. You know, you're employed, and you ain't going anywhere."

22:15 Speaker 2 Right.

22:16 Speaker 1 What did he do?

22:18 Speaker 2 He fired himself.

22:19 Speaker 1 He got himself fired. In no time, he got himself fired, and that was the end of it. And Leibel Raskin, very beautiful story that when rumor had it that he was asked to go to Shlichus to Morocco or Tunis, some elder Chassid came to him and tried to set him straight. "You crazy? Where are you going? What's gonna be with your Chinuch? What's gonna be with your Chassidish environment? Uh, how you gonna live? Amongst whom are you gonna live? What are you doing?" And Leibel just looks at him and says, "The Rebbe has been talking we should go on Shlichus for so many years. Finally, I have this ‹foreign language› that the Rebbe is giving me a Shlichus, and you're giving me this speech?"

23:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

23:10 Speaker 1 So the elder Chassid didn't wanna leave go, and they got into a conversation, the way I heard it. They started strolling on Eastern Parkway, and he's trying to knock in sense to him. And Leibel is like, "I, I don't get it."

23:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

23:29 Speaker 1 "This is what the Rebbe wants. We gotta do it." And what preceded that was Rabbi Hadakov asked him, "Do you wanna go to Tunis or to Morocco?" To him, it's like you're asking him, "Should he go to Jupiter or Pluto?"

23:46 Speaker 2 Right.

23:46 Speaker 1 "What's the difference?" He says, "What's the difference to me?" Rabbi Hadakov says, "Okay, you know what? Talk to your wife. When you'll make a decision, you'll come." And he says, "Whatever the Rebbe wants, that's where I'm going." So this was like it was still open, and they're having this conversation, and they're coming back towards 770. I don't know exactly what it looked like. But then they noticed at the entrance to 770, somebody overtook them and quickly walked in 770. They raised their eyes, and he noticed it was the Rebbe. The Rebbe came from behind them and walked into 770. A short while later, Rabbi Hadakov calls him in and he says, "The Rebbe chose Morocco for you." So the way he interpreted it, or maybe he had more proof for it, that the Rebbe was walking behind. He heard him speak. He heard how he spoke. So even though Rabbi Hadakov told him, "You're gonna have to pick your place," but the Rebbe heard that he's really devoted, so the Rebbe picked the place for him. What's my point? The Rebbe did demand total Bitul. Total giving yourself away. And this is not only because you have to listen to the Rebbe like that. Your whole approach to life has to be straight out ‹foreign language›. You have to accept, and don't ask too many questions.

25:14 Speaker 2 Mm.

25:14 Speaker 1 So this is a general approach in life because that's the only way. If you're gonna allow yourself to be distracted, who knows where you're gonna end up?

25:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:26 Speaker 1 That's on a spiritual level. On a physical level, I think we specifically, we are the next generation from the, what we would call the silent generation. Technically Holocaust survivors, Stalin survivors.

25:43 Speaker 2 Right.

25:43 Speaker 1 My father grew up in Russia. He was trained to keep his mouth shut.

25:51 Speaker 2 Right.

25:51 Speaker 1 You couldn't open... So if you wanna give a bit of a negative spin, he didn't know how to communicate 'cause nobody trained him how to communicate.

26:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:03 Speaker 1 On a positive note, how did they grow up? I, I ask this que- And this is something, a realization I only came to ye- a few years ago as that generation passed. My father's group, they grew up, their yeshiva education was in Samarkand.

26:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:28 Speaker 1 They came out in their middle teens, 17, 18 years old, and then they were in Brinoir for a few years until they came to America. It's a group, what can I tell you?

26:43 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:43 Speaker 1 Geonim, Talmid Chachamim, which is unbelievable. If they would be in another place, in a Misnagdish world, they would've been Gedolei Yisroel, the biggest Rosh Yeshivas. My father was a Rosh Yeshiva for quite a few years in Newark. Was a, a Talmid Chacham. I remember we were sitting shiva and people walked in, they looked at my father's schatz, uh, their eyes popped. I remember I used to lear- He s- he used to sit nights and learn with chavruses. He went through Kochim and he-

27:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

27:16 Speaker 1 Learning was, was his thing.

27:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

27:19 Speaker 1 Where and how did they learn in Samarkand? There was no food. There was no clothing. There was no seforim. You tell me how did they grow up like that? My only answer is that silent Kabbalah soul. Instead of rebelling, "Why do I have to put up with this?" And, and there were like that. Most of those who were a little from that era that went off a little were the one, they, I wouldn't say they went off, but were the ones who were sent to the army.

27:50 Speaker 2 Hmm.

27:50 Speaker 1 But those who didn't go to the army, there wasn't that rebellious mood.

27:56 Speaker 2 Hmm.

27:57 Speaker 1 There was a perfect Kabbalah soul mood. So they went and they continued to impart this on us.

28:02 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:04 Speaker 1 When we went to cheder, our first teachers were like that. I mean-

28:08 Speaker 2 Yeah

28:08 Speaker 1 ... we had a, a mix of American and Russian teachers, but the Russian teachers were fire.

28:16 Speaker 2 Right.

28:17 Speaker 1 So I think that's where it comes from. So asking questions is just not part of the o-o, the, the repertoire. It's, it's, you know, accept, be accepting, and things will work out. And you didn't even care will it work out or not. That's another part.

28:36 Speaker 2 Right.

28:37 Speaker 1 Tachlis was like not a, a thing.

28:41 Speaker 2 I mean, so, so from what I, what I'm understanding from you is there's basically two, there's two ideas. There's... One is a more, like, religious idea of, of Kabbalah soul that dominates over, um, your understanding. Like, i- if, if the question is fo- uh, you know, following versus understanding, following precedes. Following comes first. And the other one is a more historical idea, which is the, the residue or debris of communism that was left in the community, and Stalinism, and whatever. Um, I mean, I, I think, I, I, I don't disagree with either of those ideas. Um, it's definitely, definitely part of the reason. The q- the question is, from your vantage point, given that that's how you grew up, and that's how things were, and that's how things... That, that was considered the good way of living, let's say. What makes you th- Did you think that asking questions is a good thing, or that other people ask questions a good thing? Um, do you think now that it's a good thing? I mean, you, you've explained why people didn't ask questions, and you've noticed that people today are asking questions. Is that a good development or a bad development in your opinion?

30:05 Speaker 1 That's exactly why I'm thanking you.

30:08 Speaker 2 Right.

30:09 Speaker 1 I believe, first of all, some changes were already instituted by the Rebbe.

30:18 Speaker 2 Hmm.

30:19 Speaker 1 Whether you wanna call it as part of shlichus, where you meet people from the outside, and all of a sudden you're confronting questions that you never thought about, you never had to think about.

30:31 Speaker 2 Right.

30:32 Speaker 1 You need answers. But the Rebbe also emphasized the Avodas Hamato, that we, we have to be permeated. Kabbalah soul is not enough.

30:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

30:46 Speaker 1 If anything, in many maamarim, I believe even, even the last maamar, even in Likutei Torah you have a, a hint of that. The Rebbe wants this Kabbalah soul to be permeated also, as the word is Kochas HaPnimim, also with your intellect, also with your emotions. So yeah, there is this Kabbalah soul hanging over you, but you have to have it in your mind. That's why I think the Rebbe published all the Chassidus. When I was a young bocher, there was no Chassidus published. We learned most of everything that we had from manuscripts or whatever you call it, the, um, the typed, uh, mimeograph.

31:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:33 Speaker 1 And there wasn't much. I mean, I can say since I got married-

31:39 Speaker 2 Right

31:39 Speaker 1 ... another 500 Chassidus seforim were published.

31:43 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:43 Speaker 1 Until then, there were 50, 60 seforim, everything together, including Kumzriten. We didn't ha- And the Rebbe's Tate, we didn't have in writing. Th- It was so little available.

31:55 Speaker 2 Right.

31:56 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe published it all. And what the Rebbe taught us, ways of thinking. The first

32:04 Speaker 2 As, as, I don't, I don't mean, I d- I don't wanna cut you off, but I am going to cut you off. You, you made a very, very interesting point there about, about the publishing all, of all the Chassidus. You, you brought that up as a kind of, as a kind of connection or as a kind of proof almost towards thinking for yourself and, and, and asking questions. It's interesting that I think you c- there are those, and there is a way to interpret that in the exact opposite way, which is why I'm pointing it out. Um, you know, so much Chassidus means that there's no questions anymore, right? All the questions have been answered, and there's such a yam of, of, of Chassidus that to swim across it i- is enough of an undertaking that there's no time for questions. You could just say even more, maybe a little bit more cynically, that when there's more, when there's so much, when you're drinking from a fire hose, basically, right? You- There's so much coming at you, it, it's impossible almost to think for yourself. So i- it's interesting that you're seeing that as a invitation almost to, to think and to ask questions. And it, it makes sense. Like, why would you publish Chassidus? The Rebbe wasn't throwing spaghetti at the wall. I mean, of course, maybe some people think that, but, uh, I wouldn't think the Rebbe's just throwing spaghetti at the wall and, like, seeing what sticks. It's more, "Here, I'm, I

33:33 Speaker 2 am not safeguarding it anymore. I'm not, like, uh," what's it called? "Gate- gatekeeping it from you anymore. Here it is. There's nothing to hide. It's for you to figure out," right? "I'm, I'm trusting it, I'm entrusting you with this, with this, with this, uh, Chassidus." But, uh, I think it's just interesting that you make that kind of observation because I know that I've heard or I've seen it be interpreted the opposite way of...

34:00 Speaker 1 Listen, I feel that way. There's a lot more-

34:05 Speaker 2 Right

34:05 Speaker 1 ... to my thinking how I interpret this.

34:08 Speaker 2 Right.

34:09 Speaker 1 But I'm relating now to this asking the Rebbe, "When you say the answers are there, I don't know them."

34:16 Speaker 2 Right.

34:16 Speaker 1 "So I have to learn."

34:18 Speaker 2 Right.

34:18 Speaker 1 "And if I'm not gonna learn, I'm not gonna know."

34:20 Speaker 2 But-

34:20 Speaker 1 So you know what?

34:21 Speaker 2 But, but you're not learning it just to find answers. That, that's also going-

34:25 Speaker 1 May I, may I take a personal experience that I had through learning Chassidus?

34:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's an open invitation.

34:33 Speaker 1 A painful-

34:33 Speaker 2 You can say whatever you want

34:34 Speaker 1 ... a painful topic.

34:36 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, I'm just saying you could say whatever you want.

34:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:38 Speaker 2 You don't need to ask permission.

34:38 Speaker 1 We had a painful topic.

34:40 Speaker 2 Okay.

34:41 Speaker 1 It's called Gimmel Tammuz. Terrible experience.

34:44 Speaker 2 Hmm.

34:45 Speaker 1 I grew up, I knew nothing other-

34:48 Speaker 2 Right

34:48 Speaker 1 ... than the Rebbe.

34:49 Speaker 2 Right.

34:50 Speaker 1 Just to, to, just to give it a little emotion. I was married. I had, God bless him already, I had eight children already. And not that we thought anything, but you know, we were sure. We got married with the Rebbe on our side, and the Rebbe's leading us, and the Rebbe will take care of us, especially since the Rebbe started Tzetze Hashem. So he's taking care of everything. And then all of a sudden, Gimmel Tammuz, you feel cheated. Like, "This is not what I signed up for."

35:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:28 Speaker 1 "How will I continue?" I was struggling.

35:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:36 Speaker 1 Many years. I remember one of the consoling statements I spoke to friends was, "Now, it can't be. If the Rebbe cared for some girl in, in, in, in Africa or some man in some hick town in Holland or these various, you know, we, or in Australia for, to do one mitzvah, the Rebbe's all of a sudden going to abandon us? It's not possible. So he's for sure not..." I mean, that was just, you know, it was nice to say, but y- you didn't feel it. I'm talking shortly after Gimmel Tammuz. And I was struggling. A lot of ... sprinkles, a lot of crying. Until it came 57 Samach Vav. That's 12 years after-

36:38 Speaker 2 Hmm

36:38 Speaker 1 ... Gimmel Tammuz. It was 100 years since the Samach Vav. I'll never forget this. I was sitting ... sprinkles, and I told someone, "You know, it would be nice to sit down and learn the Samach Vav cover to cover." In yeshiva, you just learn pretty much the first Hem Shech and then a Cheydosh and then Omiknerab, and pretty much-

37:04 Speaker 2 Right

37:05 Speaker 1 ... you get ideas. But, but there's a question in the beginning of Samach Vav, you don't get that answer I said, "Okay, I gotta start cover to cover." Right. The next day, I get a call from one of the people at the table, "When are we starting?" I put my foot in my mouth. Hmm. So you know what? I started. I started learning Samach Vov. And even though many people are not gonna like what I'm gonna say, um, I know for a fact Reb Yael was very not happy with this type of thinking. Other Chassidim, Rabbi Shlomo Friedman I spoke to did accept it from me. I, I, I, I discussed it with many Chassidim. Reb Yael was not happy with- With this stuff Oh, you spoke to him about it I'll tell you what he was not happy about Oh, you spoke to him about it? I s- I-- Not myself. I directly didn't, but I already heard from others. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. My... And one of my chavruses spoke to him about it. Uh-huh, uh-huh. And when I finished Samach Vov, I says, "This is my answer to Gimmel Tammuz." Hmm. What? How is Samach Vov... And this is when it hit me. The end of Samach Vov, which gives you the, the closing for the question why the Eibishter created the world, and what is accomplished, like, there's no-- What's the Chiddush? You know, the big question, what's the Chiddush? Towards the end of the Samach Vov, the Rebbe Rashab explains it.

38:36 Speaker 1 The Chiddush, that there's, there's a n- a new Giluy. The world starts or creation starts or even the Shomrei Hashas start, even if it's in Atzmus, but there is still what you call a removed level. That's called Hellem HaAtzmi. Right. Hellem HaAtzmi. We wanna achieve Giluy Hellem HaAtzmi. Now, the translation of these three words is the biggest oxymoron. Right. Biggest contradiction. Giluy, revelation. Hellem, of a concealment. HaAtzmi, of an essence. Revelation is not concealment. Right. And Atzmi, essence- Is not- ... is neither. Right. So we're going to reach... We come from there, and we wanna reach that level, and then when Mashiach will come, we're gonna go even higher than that. Yeah. And that kind of gave me... It settled me. Why did it settle me? Whatever we learn of Chassidus is not, it's not theory. Right. It's real life. What happened here? There's a concealment, a terrible concealment. We started off, it's a darkness. Hmm. It's a darkness. Hmm. "Achoshach, kaf lamchopo." We had it so good. All of a sudden it's dark. With time, now I have to put together the life's experience together with what I'm learning. With time, we notice, wait a minute, the Rebbe didn't disappear. The Rebbe is still here. He's working in wondrous ways. He's leading us. A new generation is growing up. Mekusharim. Their whole life is Rebbe. They're still willing to give their lives away for the Rebbe. What do you mean still? A lot more than ever before. Shlichus quadrupled since Gimmel Tammuz. So you

40:40 Speaker 1 look at that, and then you look at this. There's a darkness. Stop a minute. Samach Vov is explaining to you there's a concealment. There's a Hellem HaAtzmi. There is an essential concealment. In other words, the essence is concealed, but it's functioning. That's how the world is created. That's where Neshamas come from. How does that translate? That translates in, in my life before I had the Rebbe in revelation. Giluy. Hmm. I saw the Rebbe every day s- And i- it was amazing, my whole life. Now, there's a concealment, but he's functioning through the concealment. What does that mean? Now, I'm gonna say something very bold. Hmm. When I look at the face of a bocher, this is what the Rebbe looks like. Stop looking only at the pictures. Look at the real life Rebbe is when I walk into 770 and I see a packed 770 of bochurim sitting and learning. That's Rebbe. When I walk into, to a seminary or high school and I sit down with girls and I farbreng with them, my eyes pop out. Such is gashmiyus. Here, the Rebbe is shining. Shining, it's concealed. You don't see him, but he's there and he's functioning, fully functional. This Samach Vov helped me. It liter-- Honestly, it calmed me in a certain sense. Reb Yael didn't like that. Why not? Don't look for explanations for Gimmel Tammuz. Uh-huh. Leave it. We don't really know. And I'm not saying I know. I'm just saying that to me, that gave me a certain settlement. This

42:39 Speaker 1 was my- Hmm ... how I saw it. And that's why when I look at today's generation who are asking those questions... I think I told you that when I listened to some of your podcasts with some of the younger guys, I felt like a fly on the wall in a dormitory room. Yeah. I love it. I don't know what bochurim talk about in dormitory. Uh, neither do I. No. But I heard it. This is what they, they ask those questions. Right. They discuss it amongst them. And look what the product, look what the end product is. The end product is a m-

43:16 Speaker 2 Okay, one second, though. Uh, to push back a little bit, what about when you see... You talked, you, you, you talked about the nice things that you see, uh, you know, the, the bochurim in 770, the girl in the high school. What about when you see the, the, the, you know, the yeshiva of the bochurim who fell out of the main, the main yeshiva system or the bochur who fell out of that also and is now walking the streets and doesn't, doesn't look the part, let's say, or the girl who, you know, uh, has dropped, dropped observance of, of Yiddishkeit? Like what, what, what do you see then? Is that also, is that also the, the Rebbe in your mind?

43:57 Speaker 1 Yes.

43:59 Speaker 2 Okay.

43:59 Speaker 1 I'm not disconnected from that either.

44:01 Speaker 2 Right.

44:02 Speaker 1 In my function that I have been positioned in-

44:06 Speaker 2 Uh, nobody is today

44:07 Speaker 1 ... I farbreng with elite-

44:12 Speaker 2 Right

44:12 Speaker 1 ... or what you would call top-of-the-line-

44:15 Speaker 2 Right

44:15 Speaker 1 ... quality.

44:16 Speaker 2 Right.

44:16 Speaker 1 And I farbreng those who you would call are at the bottom of the pit.

44:23 Speaker 2 Right.

44:23 Speaker 1 I, all kinds. I mean, just to illustrate. Not... I'm not going to identify, but certain places where I farbreng, it's a Shabbos afternoon, and you sit in your farbreng, and guys come with their motorcycles-

44:39 Speaker 2 Hmm

44:39 Speaker 1 ... walking to shul. Some of them won't even have the decency of putting on a yarmulke.

44:47 Speaker 2 Right. They're angry.

44:48 Speaker 1 But sit down, eat your cholent, and then you sit and you talk to them, and all of a sudden one of them says, "Let's sing 'L'chi Lach Rebbe.' I love the Rav Maharash." And I'm like, "That's not what I expected."

45:08 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:09 Speaker 1 And I, I know quite a few. Let me give you another illustration. I'll give you a few. Maybe you'll see-

45:15 Speaker 2 Sure

45:15 Speaker 1 ... how much time allows. One of these boys, one of these boys that, of a Shabbos afternoon that I just described to you, I go to the Ohel pretty much every Sunday.

45:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:31 Speaker 1 So, summer Sundays, which are long days, to me, that's my country. My family never went to the country. I go to the quiet... Today, they're a lot busier, but there were years where it was very quiet, and you can sit there for three, four hours in just peace of mind, and you're a special place and secluded from the world. I'm sitting there, and I see two guys from this element-

46:06 Speaker 2 Hmm

46:06 Speaker 1 ... so to speak, walk in, and you can see one of them is dragging the other. Like, the second guy is not so willing to go, not a willing accomplice, but this guy is physically -

46:20 Speaker 2 Right

46:20 Speaker 1 ... he was physically dragging him.

46:21 Speaker 2 Right.

46:22 Speaker 1 They walked in. There were no yarmulkes on their head. They went over to the box, put on yarmulkes, and then one of them says to the other, "We can't go in without putting on tefillin." They went, went to the desk, put on tefillin. They open a siddur. They start reading Shema. They finish Shema. They continue Vayatziv, then our Shmoneh Esreh. They finish Shmoneh Esreh. They already finished all the way. They took out a tallit. They said tallit. It was like... It wasn't like they planned on it, but once you do it, just keep going. They finish davening. They take off the tefillin. Then the other guy says, "We can't go in without learning a sicha first." Comes over to me. He knows me. He says, "You have any sichas you recommend?" So whatever I recommended, I don't remember where it was, Parshas Korach or whatever it was, he took a sicha, one of the first halachim, Beis or Daled, and they found two halachim. They went into the second tent, and they sat down to learn. I, in the meantime, had gone into the Ohel, and I came out about an hour and a half after they started learning. They were still sitting and learning. With the zak koch. Like he was back in yeshiva. Uh, first of all, what shlepped him to the Ohel to begin with? The way we describe the appearance, we think, "Come on, he has no connection."

48:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:04 Speaker 1 And everything else about it didn't look right. One of them didn't even wanna come. The whole situation is, like, so confusing. And what happens? When the moment comes, all of a sudden, what we heard from the Rebbe so many times, "Al tavit el marehu. Don't look at it, at his looks. Don't look at his appearance." There is something in there you see. It inflamed. You look... A very recent experience, I was in a house for a kiddush.

48:36 Speaker 2 Right.

48:38 Speaker 1 And the kiddush went on late into the afternoon. And some bochur walked in. He came late. He walked in, made kiddush, started eating. But before he even sat down to eat, and I'm going to tell you, his appearance is again not shpitz Chabad. It didn't look like he came from five hours davening.

49:01 Speaker 2 Hmm.

49:03 Speaker 1 He started looking for a chelek of Likutei Sichos. He takes out Likutei Sichos, and he invites somebody. "Please, let's sit down and learn." And as they're eating or instead of eating, such a koch.

49:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're, uh, at, at least-

49:17 Speaker 1 That's one point.

49:17 Speaker 2 Right.

49:18 Speaker 1 But another point, which is a little more direct to your question.

49:22 Speaker 2 Right. 'Cause you're, you're ro- you're romanticizing it a little bit.

49:25 Speaker 1 I am telling you my experiences.

49:26 Speaker 2 No, no, I'm not, I'm not-

49:27 Speaker 1 I'm, I'm describing to you my oxygen.

49:29 Speaker 2 No, no, I, I am not, I am not disputing whether or not it happened. I believe that it happened. I, my... You're romanticizing it in the sense that if you're, you're, you're talking about things that, y- moments where people who are off the beaten path, you know, have that kind of moment of, of reconnection. But, you know, of course-

49:50 Speaker 1 I, I know exactly what your question is.

49:52 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:52 Speaker 1 And so far, I did not address it.

49:54 Speaker 2 Okay. I just wanna make sure.

49:55 Speaker 1 Honestly.

49:55 Speaker 2 Okay, fair.

49:56 Speaker 1 I'm very... I did not address it.

49:57 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:58 Speaker 1 But now I'll go back to-

49:59 Speaker 2 Okay

49:59 Speaker 1 ... direct answer to you is-

50:01 Speaker 2 Yes

50:01 Speaker 1 ... that's normal.

50:04 Speaker 2 What's normal?

50:04 Speaker 1 We all should've been like that.

50:06 Speaker 2 Right.

50:06 Speaker 1 We should've all dropped out. There is nothing, let's be honest to ourselves and to everyone, there is nobody who can take credit for keeping those in line, in line. To fall out-

50:20 Speaker 2 Why? Why?

50:21 Speaker 1 Because, uh, let's use the term conventional wisdom. What did everybody write, Gimmel Tammuz? What were the headlines in every newspaper from left and right and the center, and how many Hasidims says that's the end of Lubavitch? Why did they say that?

50:37 Speaker 2 One, one second. The end of Lubavitch means everybody's going to be frei?

50:42 Speaker 1 There's nothing to hold them.

50:44 Speaker 2 But-

50:44 Speaker 1 It, it, it, the degree of frei doesn't matter. If you're a Lubavitcher-

50:49 Speaker 2 Right. Right

50:51 Speaker 1 ... the, the, the square-

50:53 Speaker 2 Right

50:53 Speaker 1 ... the cookie cutter, shlichas, uh, learning chassidus, uh, being, uh, ultra-

51:01 Speaker 2 Right

51:02 Speaker 1 ... freidi for yourself, the minute any, the minute 1% is missing, there's no difference between 1% and 100%.

51:11 Speaker 2 No, but one second.

51:11 Speaker 1 Why are you-

51:12 Speaker 2 This, this, this needs to be interrogated a little bit, if you don't mind. W- I, I've heard this kind of expression before, but I'm trying to understand w- why... I understand that there was a massive shock by Gimmel Tammuz, and I understand that people, uh, for, you know, whe- for whatever reason, people, people didn't see it coming. And some people or many people, depending on how, how honest they were, felt betrayed. Um, but why does that lead to dropping everything? I mean, at the end of the day, did, did chassidim not believe in God? Like, uh, not believe in Torah? Like, was it just Rebbe or bust?

51:52 Speaker 1 Okay. So first of all-

51:54 Speaker 2 May- maybe I didn't understand what you're saying.

51:55 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. I didn't explain-

51:58 Speaker 2 Okay

51:58 Speaker 1 ... enough, that's for sure.

51:59 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay. This week's episode is brought to you by This World is a Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvla Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad house and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com.

52:47 Speaker 1 There's a reason why the Ba'al Shem Tov came to this world.

52:50 Speaker 2 Right.

52:50 Speaker 1 There's a reason the Alter Rebbe came into this world.

52:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

52:53 Speaker 1 They introduced a certain way of life based on the physical presence of a Rebbe.

53:03 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:03 Speaker 1 The physical presence of a Rebbe helps you, together with learning chassidus, it helps you in today's world.

53:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:13 Speaker 1 The Ba'al Shem Tov came into a world, says his name, Yisroel, to, to revive the Jewish people.

53:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:22 Speaker 1 The Jewish people were fachalisht. We're... Listen, w- there's so much we had to put up with.

53:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:31 Speaker 1 And that should've been the end of it. That, that's the normal course of nature. Somehow we always survived, and part, and a very strong part of our survival as Jews and frum Jews is always the Rebbe. The Rebbe is a very central part of it. Whether it is because, by living example, whether it is because of the spiritual powers that, that he infuses us with, but this is what we're about.

54:08 Speaker 2 But in תש"י, in תש"י, for example, in תש"י, Yud Chet תש"י, when people, uh, when people, you know, spoke to the Rebbe about, or were petitioning the Rebbe to as the Ramash at the time to become Rebbe, did it-- was, w- and he was saying no. Was the feeling that if he doesn't s- accept, we're all going to frei out? Or for example, in the time of Churban Lubavitch, after the Maharan with the Rashab and the Razah, and there wasn't officially a Rebbe for 10 years, which was described by the Frierdiker as Churban Lubavitch, did they at the time say that they were going to frei out if they... I mean, they left Lubavitch. Lubavitch became weak, but the everybody that left freid out, was that-

54:49 Speaker 1 So first of all-

54:51 Speaker 2 Or they just became other kinds of-

54:52 Speaker 1 First of all, we're going back to the beginning.

54:54 Speaker 2 Right.

54:55 Speaker 1 People didn't think that much, didn't question that much.

54:58 Speaker 2 Okay.

54:59 Speaker 1 So to say that it was on the agenda of discussion, never heard, and I don't think it was. I don't know. But to say that it wasn't, of course it was. There was a weakening, and this weakening manifest itself in all kinds of ways.

55:18 Speaker 2 Uh, the reason I'm a- I, I think I wanna explain why I'm asking it.

55:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

55:21 Speaker 2 'Cause I'm not, I'm not just asking it to, you know, to kind of, uh, ca- catch-

55:27 Speaker 1 No, you're asking a very good question

55:28 Speaker 2 No, I'm not, I'm not even just asking it to, like, find out what people-- We never really know what's going on in people's minds. It's more that I feel it-- once you accept the premise that after Gimmel Tammuz happened, the baseline is that everyone sh- should basically lose grip of their Yiddishkeit, that's the baseline. And ev-- Like, because the newspaper said that Lubavitch is over or whatever, and then whatever happens above that is, is a pele. It, it's all because you accept as a baseline that this is... What was expected was that Lubavitch should fall apart, people should lose a grip of their Yiddishkeit, and so on. That the, where you have the baseline changes everything, right? Because now the ex- now you are looking at everything compared to what you expected to happen based on the baseline. So you expect, you expected it to happen this way, and now that it didn't happen this way, we think it's amazing. But if we thought the baseline wasn't there and the baseline was higher, then the fact that we, we didn't fall apart would, wouldn't be, uh, wouldn't be amazing, right? The baseline's very important.

56:35 Speaker 1 The part-- There's partial truth to what you're saying. That is-

56:39 Speaker 2 Okay

56:40 Speaker 1 ... I'll accept.

56:41 Speaker 2 Mm.

56:41 Speaker 1 But it's not that I have a baseline down at the floor-

56:47 Speaker 2 Mm

56:47 Speaker 1 ... and, and, you know, anything higher is, is just high.

56:51 Speaker 2 Right.

56:52 Speaker 1 The, the idea is the Rebbe, everything centered around the Rebbe.

57:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:01 Speaker 1 Everything of yours. Uh, it's like amazing. You know, we always talk about the Rebbe, about Shlichus and about Haphotzeh, Mesochor, Eiker, all these wonderful things. You look at the Rebbe's Sichas, my Morim. I mean, the, the Rebbe's demanding Kabbalas Ol, and the Rebbe's demanding, um, Aveira, and the Rebbe's demanding everything the Alter Rebbe demands even stronger.

57:28 Speaker 2 Mm.

57:29 Speaker 1 Except you can almost say that the Rebbe possibly introduced some shortcuts. If by the Alter Rebbe you have to really toil. Before you went into Yechidas, you had to spend three years and, you know, only then are you ready for Yechidas and things like that. By the Rebbe, he, he opened us up in a way. This is something that is a gift. This is not a normal thing by Jews to have the Etz Hamaneshoma come out. When I say Etz Hamaneshoma, you look how Hasidim are living today. It's not because of their Avoda, but it's because there's something in them that there's a fire that burns.

58:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

58:20 Speaker 1 It, it manifests itself in so many ways. I mean, I can't start. Uh, uh, the list is so long. Whether it is young kids going out on Shlichus with absolute Mesirus Nefesh or Bochurim learning Chassidus, I mean, like, like the best maskilim of once upon a time, or Yirshomayim that I see. No, this is not... This comes from somewhere. Where does it come from? In the olden days, it didn't exist. It was a lot more Chitzoniyusdik, and maybe because it was a closed world, you were able to contain it. But how much, how much already? I mean, most Jews lived in farms and in, and in little villages, and they were disconnected. And it was an elite group of Talmid Chachomim. Today, the amount of Talmid Chachomim, the amount of Torah, the amount of, of Yeshivas, the amount of Talmidim that's going, it's unprecedented in history. There's something that changed.

59:26 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:27 Speaker 1 Something happened that did not happen with the giants, with the Sheinim Achronim. It didn't happen.

59:32 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:35 Speaker 1 Historically. Today it's happening because there are certain changes-

59:40 Speaker 2 What's, what's, what's happening?

59:43 Speaker 1 The growth of Yiddishkeit.

59:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:45 Speaker 1 The growth of, of the revelation of Yiddishkeit, the desire for Yiddishkeit, whether it is from Jews, uh... They, they like to describe certain communities. They used to be what today is called modern Orthodox, and they're losing it because their children are all Yeshiva boys.

1:00:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:00:08 Speaker 1 They became, uh, uh, code word. They became Chareidi.

1:00:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:00:14 Speaker 1 Chassidim of old, and this is a question that I've heard you ask several times. When Chassidim came out of Russia, didn't they feel, "Okay, maybe it's time to relax"? Meaning, you didn't mean relax in Yiddishkeit, but relax in, "Why go out and have Mesirus Nefesh on Shlichus when you can sit in Crown Heights and enjoy the, the local kosher stores and the, uh, hundred shuls that you have here and sit and learn Chassidus all day? Why do you have to give yourself away to care for another Jew?" And the answer is because times have changed. We, our Neshama is shining. Not only the Baal Tshuvahs that wanna come to Yiddishkeit, and especially this year after what happened in Eretz Yisroel, there was such an arousal, such an awakening by Jews clo- to get closer to Yiddishkeit. There is something happening. It's playing out. What we learn in the books is really playing out. So there is the normal course of things that all of this shouldn't happen. By us Chassidim, it centers around the Rebbe. When we don't have that presence of the Rebbe, it's lost. So the natural course of events should be, "What's forcing me?" Uh, uh, in my times, you know, you knew I'm gonna have to go by the Rebbe by Krias Shma Brocho.

1:01:41 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:01:43 Speaker 1 I can't just come naked. I have to have something.

1:01:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:49 Speaker 1 It kept me on my toes. I'm gonna see the Rebbe by Mincha Maariv. The Rebbe used to come in, we all know that by Mincha Maariv the Rebbe used to scan the crowd, or by Krias HaTorah he would see who's here, who's not here. This kept you on your toes. The times of Yechidus, you knew you had to go into Yechidus. These were things that kept you-

1:02:10 Speaker 2 When you, when you were a Bachur, there was still Yechidus?

1:02:12 Speaker 1 Yes. I still have to run a few Yechidus. So this-

1:02:17 Speaker 2 What was it like when it, when it switched from yes to no? Like, what, how old are you when it stopped?

1:02:23 Speaker 1 It was 18.

1:02:25 Speaker 2 So from bar mitzvah to 18, you had every year, you had yechidus?

1:02:29 Speaker 1 Yes. I had yechidus.

1:02:30 Speaker 2 And what was it like when it stopped? What was, what-

1:02:32 Speaker 1 Well, it-

1:02:33 Speaker 2 Was it a, abrupt or what?

1:02:34 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe, I don't know from where I use this word-

1:02:38 Speaker 2 On this podcast you can

1:02:39 Speaker 1 ... he was brilliant.

1:02:40 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:02:41 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was brilliant. When the Rebbe stopped yechidus, he also-- And we know that's part of the reason was that it was not effective, and we were not utilizing yechidus in the proper way.

1:02:54 Speaker 2 Wait, wait. When did it stop? Lamed Ches, right?

1:02:56 Speaker 1 Lamed He.

1:02:57 Speaker 2 Oh, before-

1:02:57 Speaker 1 For bochurim

1:02:58 Speaker 2 Before the heart attack?

1:02:59 Speaker 1 For bochurim. Before the heart attack.

1:03:00 Speaker 2 Okay. How did it stop? One day there was an announcement or-

1:03:03 Speaker 1 Yes, the Rebbe announced that there will be no more yechidus.

1:03:05 Speaker 2 The Rebbe announced it?

1:03:06 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:03:06 Speaker 2 At Farbrengen?

1:03:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so, yeah.

1:03:08 Speaker 2 And he said what?

1:03:09 Speaker 1 And he explained.

1:03:10 Speaker 2 He said it's not work-

1:03:11 Speaker 1 He said it's, it, it's not having the proper effect. The whole idea, the... And I don't remember if it was private conversations with Dan Holo or, or Maskilim.

1:03:21 Speaker 2 And it took all of you by surprise at Farbrengen or you, uh, people saw it coming? Do you remember what the feeling was?

1:03:28 Speaker 1 Say that you saw it coming. You never saw anything coming.

1:03:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:34 Speaker 1 But you did sense the Rebbe's lack of appreciation. Bochurim coming in, I think the Rebbe used the expression, "A bochur comes in for yechidus to ask for a broche." That's why he has to come in for yechidus. "I have yechidus," the Rebbe said. "I instituted yechidus because something..." The Rebbe said, "It was something that didn't exist in the past."

1:03:55 Speaker 2 What, going to the Rebbe for yechidus?

1:03:56 Speaker 1 For bochurim to go into yechidus.

1:03:58 Speaker 2 Didn't exist with the Rashab?

1:03:59 Speaker 1 That's what the Rebbe said.

1:04:01 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:04:01 Speaker 1 I mean, maybe there were exceptions, but, uh-

1:04:04 Speaker 2 As a yearly thing

1:04:05 Speaker 1 ... um, I s- uh, recently, I, I saw a letter, a very sharp letter from the Friediker Rebbe to the Mashpia in Varsha, uh, who was pleading with the Friediker Rebbe, uh, to allow the bochurim into yechidus. And he wrote the Rebbe that the bochurim are very upset and they're-

1:04:26 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:26 Speaker 1 ... very hurt. And the Friediker Rebbe responded. He said very clear. He said, "The yechidus is not a visit."

1:04:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:35 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe describes what yechidus is, and it doesn't exis-- You, you just wanna go in because you wanna go in.

1:04:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:04:45 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe says the-- And the Friediker Rebbe did not change his mind. He stood his ground. He said, "Tell the bochurim to sit and learn Chumash and stop hallucinating, and, and, uh, get to work, and everything will be fine. You don't need yechidus. The yechidus ne-" The Rebbe said, "You're not utilizing yechidus." The Rebbe said, "I introduced something. I thought a bochur will come in, and he'll open himself up to me, and I'll be able to give him guidance."

1:05:12 Speaker 2 Why should, why should those bochurim, I'm sure there were bochurim that were utilizing it, why should they suffer? They didn't explain.

1:05:18 Speaker 1 I, I can't answer that. The, the Rebbe even was upset. Uh, at one point, the Rebbe instituted that, that, uh, in the f- last few years, which you can say was an indicator. The Rebbe said, "When a bochur comes in yechidus, he should bring a letter from Dan Holo." So Dan Holo-- And he would read first the letter from Dan Holo, which was supposed to be a write-up about the bochur.

1:05:41 Speaker 2 Like a report card.

1:05:41 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said, "This way, I will know what to talk to him about."

1:05:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe was upset because they used to give a rosy picture. You know, every bochur is fine, every bochur is nice. Why say anything bad? And the Rebbe said, "So what's the point?" The Rebbe was upset.

1:05:58 Speaker 2 So what was the feeling then when he, uh, c- 'cause you-

1:06:00 Speaker 1 Hey, listen, it was a letdown.

1:06:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:06:02 Speaker 1 But on the other hand, what the Rebbe said, "You can have yechidus every time you're at Farbrengen."

1:06:08 Speaker 2 And you guys bought that at the time?

1:06:10 Speaker 1 Whether you bought it or not, when you needed it, you saw it was there.

1:06:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, but, uh, at the time, you, you, you, you were used to-

1:06:18 Speaker 1 A bochur, this is, uh-

1:06:21 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm gonna accept, I'm gonna believe what you tell me

1:06:23 Speaker 1 There are dozens of bochurim that I heard of from my generation.

1:06:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:29 Speaker 1 I came to the Farbrengen, and all of a sudden, the Rebbe addressed my, my direct issue.

1:06:36 Speaker 2 Say there, but, but we can acknowledge, but that's in your head. That's not the same as walking into-

1:06:40 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe said, and the Rebbe said, "This is it."

1:06:44 Speaker 2 That's how you felt?

1:06:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:06:46 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:06:46 Speaker 1 When it happened-

1:06:47 Speaker 2 You felt, you felt-

1:06:48 Speaker 1 You felt it

1:06:48 Speaker 2 ... you felt no missing of a yechidus?

1:06:50 Speaker 1 It, it, it's very hard to say missing. It's like I'm gonna say today, "I don't feel the Rebbe missing." It's ridiculous.

1:06:57 Speaker 2 So you did feel a missing.

1:06:58 Speaker 1 Of course, I felt missing, but the Rebbe always found ways out of compensate.

1:07:04 Speaker 2 No, the, I mean-

1:07:04 Speaker 1 The Rebbe started coming out more often to the public.

1:07:07 Speaker 2 There's no sen- there was no sense, uh, "If only I could have been a bochur 10 years earlier in the chufs," for example? Was there that kind of sense of-

1:07:17 Speaker 1 You always have this type of feeling when you look back.

1:07:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:07:22 Speaker 1 There's nothing to talk about. Y- you can't deny-

1:07:25 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:25 Speaker 1 ... that there is such a feeling. But on the other ha- uh, let's take Tosh M'Lamed Ches, yeah?

1:07:32 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:07:34 Speaker 1 All of a sudden, for a month, we didn't see the Rebbe.

1:07:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:38 Speaker 1 You know what that was? I was, I would say, in my prime bochur yashiv, it was so difficult. Uh, I, I have no words. It's very painful. And what's gonna be-

1:07:53 Speaker 2 You also, you also didn't know it's gonna be, um, just a month.

1:07:56 Speaker 1 I'm just saying.

1:07:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:57 Speaker 1 What's gonna be now?

1:07:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:00 Speaker 1 The same way the Rebbe disappeared for a month. Who knows how long that's gonna... We didn't know it was for a month. What did the Rebbe do afterwards?

1:08:08 Speaker 2 How bad, how bad did it get in terms of what you thought was going to be? Like, how bad, how dark did it get?

1:08:16 Speaker 1 It's-- What can I say? Uh, you just shut off a switch. The light went off.

1:08:22 Speaker 2 No, but how dark did it get? Like, was there, was there, was there, was there a concern that the Rebbe's life was, was, uh, at stake here?

1:08:31 Speaker 1 So I'm gonna put it this way. You didn't wanna think that the Rebbe's life was at stake.

1:08:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:39 Speaker 1 It was just not part of the thinking. I, as an individual, as a private citizen, happened to be in a household where quite a few of the doctors who were present came for the Yom Tov. I'm talking right away in the first days. And what you heard from them was not very exciting.

1:09:02 Speaker 2 No.

1:09:02 Speaker 1 I was present in seven seventy about five o'clock in the morning when they asked us to go run and wake up all the Rabbonim to come together and paskind that the Rebbe must go to the hospital. That was not a encouraging moment.

1:09:20 Speaker 2 Well, one second. I never heard this before. Th- Because the Rebbe was-- The story that I do know is that, uh, the Rebbe and with the support of the Rebbetzin said that they're not going to the hospital.

1:09:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:09:31 Speaker 2 And at least until Dr. Weiss from Chicago came, they brought in a bunch of doctors to see the Rebbe and to-

1:09:38 Speaker 1 Some of which left

1:09:39 Speaker 2 ... all of them just left. I heard this directly from Rabbi Krinsky. He, he-- They-- Every doctor that came said they cannot take achrayus of treating him in seven seventy.

1:09:48 Speaker 1 Correct.

1:09:48 Speaker 2 And that's when Rabbi Krinsky called-- Uh, the Rebbetzin asked Rabbi Krinsky if he could think of someone because she insisted that if the Rebbe decided not to go to the hospital, he's not going to the hospital. And when the Rebbetzin asked Rabbi Krinsky, he remembered of Dr. Weiss in-

1:10:03 Speaker 1 Right

1:10:03 Speaker 2 ... Chicago, who flew in on Yom Tov.

1:10:05 Speaker 1 Right.

1:10:05 Speaker 2 So that part of the story I know, and I heard from him.

1:10:08 Speaker 1 But there was a part-

1:10:09 Speaker 2 So in the between

1:10:10 Speaker 1 ... early morning-

1:10:10 Speaker 2 'Cause this is on Yom Tov still.

1:10:12 Speaker 1 Huh? Before Dr. Weiss came.

1:10:14 Speaker 2 Right. Oh, right. In between. So there was-

1:10:16 Speaker 1 Tuesday, Wednesday morning.

1:10:17 Speaker 2 So who, who, who came up-

1:10:18 Speaker 1 Apparently-

1:10:19 Speaker 2 Right

1:10:20 Speaker 1 ... towards the m- the end of night, the Rebbe had another heart attack.

1:10:28 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:10:29 Speaker 1 Which they had on the monitors.

1:10:30 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 They already had monitors.

1:10:32 Speaker 2 Right. Which is quite common for the Chassid-

1:10:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. There was another, and that one s-sounded or looked-

1:10:40 Speaker 2 Worse

1:10:40 Speaker 1 ... even more s-severe.

1:10:42 Speaker 2 Really?

1:10:43 Speaker 1 Yes. And they were very frightened. And they thought-

1:10:46 Speaker 2 Who's they at this point? The maskirim? Is the Rebbetzin-

1:10:48 Speaker 1 Maskirim is-- I, I don't know. I was outside.

1:10:50 Speaker 2 Maybe a private doctor, doctors-

1:10:51 Speaker 1 I was never, I was never in t-

1:10:53 Speaker 2 Right. No, say-

1:10:53 Speaker 1 No, there were a few Yungleit. Uh, there were a few Lubavitcher Chassidim.

1:10:57 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Dr. Zelikson?

1:10:58 Speaker 1 I-- No. I mean, Zelikson also, but there were others. I forget the names. There was somebody from Cleveland and somebody from Florida. Could it be Dr. Wunsch from Florida? Somebody from Cleveland. I forget his name.

1:11:11 Speaker 2 They pumped, they pumped happened to be a free on Tov.

1:11:12 Speaker 1 They came free on Tov like Chassidim.

1:11:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right.

1:11:16 Speaker 1 And there was maybe one more.

1:11:17 Speaker 2 Right. So there were some medical people, but not-

1:11:19 Speaker 1 It was something

1:11:20 Speaker 2 ... but not-

1:11:20 Speaker 1 Yes

1:11:20 Speaker 2 ... not, not the experts needed.

1:11:21 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh, um, maybe Levi Lev.

1:11:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 Um, there were some doctors, and they-

1:11:32 Speaker 2 They freaked out

1:11:32 Speaker 1 ... they were frightened.

1:11:33 Speaker 2 They freaked-

1:11:33 Speaker 1 They freaked out. And, and they thought, you know, the Rebbe, the, the, the, the decision earlier was not to go to the hospital, but maybe now it's time.

1:11:40 Speaker 2 And so they thought that if they bring Rabbonim-

1:11:42 Speaker 1 Yes, and they'll paskind

1:11:43 Speaker 2 ... the Rebbe will listen. The Rebbe will listen.

1:11:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the Rebbe actually gave out a message, "Please don't come to give me a nipzak."

1:11:52 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:11:53 Speaker 1 "So because I won't listen," or something like that. So I shouldn't-

1:11:56 Speaker 2 He said-

1:11:56 Speaker 1 "So I shouldn't have to-

1:11:57 Speaker 2 Have to listen

1:11:58 Speaker 1 ... not listen," or something like, or, "So I shouldn't have to listen." Something to that effect.

1:12:02 Speaker 2 Well, what-- Yeah. Is, has there ever been an explanation of why the Rebbe refused to go to the hospital?

1:12:09 Speaker 1 Explanation.

1:12:10 Speaker 2 No, say-

1:12:10 Speaker 1 You see, there again, you're coming to one of those questions we never ask. But-

1:12:14 Speaker 2 Say that

1:12:14 Speaker 1 ... you want my, you want my guess?

1:12:16 Speaker 2 It's the obvious question to ask.

1:12:17 Speaker 1 You want my guess?

1:12:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:12:18 Speaker 1 It would have devastated Chassidim.

1:12:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:12:20 Speaker 1 The Rebbe would not, um-

1:12:23 Speaker 2 Even, but even if it meant that he, that he would be more-

1:12:26 Speaker 1 We don't know

1:12:27 Speaker 2 ... right

1:12:27 Speaker 1 From the inside information, we have snippets here and there that the Rebbe at one point later in the day, uh, um, asked Rabbi Groner or something that if had-- "What did you think was going to happen?" Like, "Were you afraid?"

1:12:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:46 Speaker 1 Some-something to that effect. I don't remember-

1:12:48 Speaker 2 With the Rashamos being that, that, that-

1:12:50 Speaker 1 That this is life-threatening.

1:12:53 Speaker 2 That the Rebbe acknowledged.

1:12:54 Speaker 1 The Rebbe acknowledged-

1:12:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:12:56 Speaker 1 ... that it could have been life-threatening. Something to that effect.

1:12:59 Speaker 2 All right.

1:12:59 Speaker 1 I think I heard it once from Rabbi-

1:13:00 Speaker 2 So at the ti- at the time, what was the, what was the sense of, of Pachad? Was it, was it, was it-

1:13:06 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe-

1:13:06 Speaker 2 Was it similar, was it, was it similar to what, what happened by Chazaal and other, for example?

1:13:11 Speaker 1 The Rebbe kept us on our toes. What does it mean he kept us on our toes? Two hours after it happened, the Rebbe sends out a message to everyone to go eat Seudas Yom Tov at home.

1:13:26 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. Everybody's-

1:13:27 Speaker 1 This is what the-

1:13:27 Speaker 2 ... congregated outside seven seventy

1:13:29 Speaker 1 This is it. This is what the Rebbe has on his mind now.

1:13:31 Speaker 2 Everybody's outside seven seventy.

1:13:32 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:13:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:13:34 Speaker 1 Make an announcement. The Rebbe said everybody should go.

1:13:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:39 Speaker 1 The next morning or, uh, during the day, this is something I was directly involved. I happened to be at that time the memuner of the Tahalucha.

1:13:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:13:48 Speaker 1 And I worked very hard that year to find more shuls, and I actually called Rabbonim and prepared they should expect us. And suddenly the, "Who wants to leave seven seventy?"

1:14:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:00 Speaker 1 And I'm running around. I don't know what to do.

1:14:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:14:04 Speaker 1 All of a sudden, I think it was Berel Yunich came out, and he said the Rebbe asked to announce that everybody should go to Tahalucha as normal.

1:14:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:15 Speaker 1 Mit Simcha. The Rebbe saved my day. That was my personal experience.

1:14:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're talking about the day of. I'm talking about a week or two later when you don't know what's going on.

1:14:25 Speaker 1 A, a week or two later, because the impressions of the first day, that kind of took off the pressure.

1:14:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:14:32 Speaker 1 I didn't-

1:14:33 Speaker 2 I mean-

1:14:33 Speaker 1 ... come back from Hakafas-

1:14:35 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:35 Speaker 1 ... till as late as I can.

1:14:37 Speaker 2 Why?

1:14:38 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I, I couldn't face what am I gonna see in seven seventy.

1:14:41 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:14:41 Speaker 1 Then you come seven seventy, you see it's a packed shul

1:14:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:14:45 Speaker 1 The Rebbe sent out Mashke, and, and, and the Rebbe said, "Hakafas, we should all realize that whoever is supposed to sit on the bench" He said, "You should set up the shul normal, and you should envision that whoever is supposed to sit on the bench is there."

1:15:02 Speaker 2 That's what he said?

1:15:03 Speaker 1 Yes. He kept sending messengers.

1:15:05 Speaker 2 And, and what, what was-

1:15:06 Speaker 1 So that was like-

1:15:07 Speaker 2 What was Hakafas like?

1:15:10 Speaker 1 That was the real, uh, um, they have this line, that was the absolute There were tear, rivers of tears streaming.

1:15:23 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:15:24 Speaker 1 And everybody was dancing.

1:15:26 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:15:27 Speaker 1 It was, it, it, it was a sight. It was a sight. It was an experience. It was, was crazy. And then the Rebbe just every f- every day he st- he, he, he, he did things to send messages. The, the, the whole thing that Rebbe sent out a message about the, the about the needle, whether it's the vacuum or it's the pressure.

1:15:52 Speaker 2 That was at Motza'ei Yom Tov.

1:15:53 Speaker 1 No. No.

1:15:55 Speaker 2 But he gave a sicha Motza'ei Yom Tov.

1:15:57 Speaker 1 Motza'ei Yom Tov he gave a sicha himself.

1:15:59 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:15:59 Speaker 1 But the night before, the night between the Rebbe sent out a message with Rabbi Groner that he should-

1:16:06 Speaker 2 Ah

1:16:07 Speaker 1 ... pass it on to-

1:16:07 Speaker 2 Pass it

1:16:07 Speaker 1 ... Reb Yael, and Reb Yael will develop it according to his ability.

1:16:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:16:14 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe is telling us, "Kinderlach, yes, there is a concealment, but you know what? There's gonna be tremendous revelation." And then the that, the, when the Rebbe spoke the sicha Motza'ei Yom Tov, and then the next Shabbos, and the next Shabbos, and the, and all the time, the Rebbe's maggia every sicha. We think that there's a slowdown.

1:16:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:16:36 Speaker 1 And by the Rebbe there's more intensity. There's more in a different form, but the gilly is there. So-

1:16:44 Speaker 2 What changed before and after, like in terms of your-

1:16:47 Speaker 1 A lot of things

1:16:48 Speaker 2 ... No, no, I, I, not tech- I mean, whatever you want to say, but was it, was it just a, like, like a, a list of what Rebbe released or was it all psychological?

1:16:58 Speaker 1 Psychological.

1:16:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:59 Speaker 1 Uh, psychologically, we felt that, you know, uh, I would say we discovered that the Rebbe's a human being.

1:17:10 Speaker 2 Did discover that.

1:17:11 Speaker 1 We discovered.

1:17:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:12 Speaker 1 If he can have a heart attack.

1:17:14 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:17:15 Speaker 1 You weren't even allowed to say the word heart attack. That's how that's how taboo it was.

1:17:20 Speaker 2 At, at the time.

1:17:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:17:22 Speaker 2 The Rebbe didn't have a heart attack.

1:17:23 Speaker 1 He, he didn't have a h- He just-

1:17:25 Speaker 2 Wasn't feeling well

1:17:25 Speaker 1 ... didn't feel good, whatever.

1:17:26 Speaker 2 Mamash.

1:17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. I knew it was a heart attack 'cause I heard from the doctors.

1:17:30 Speaker 2 Right. But-

1:17:32 Speaker 1 But I kept it to myself.

1:17:33 Speaker 2 Wait. Yeah, but there was evidence here. The Rebbe had left chafes and then he didn't-

1:17:37 Speaker 1 For sure

1:17:37 Speaker 2 ... and he come the next chafes.

1:17:38 Speaker 1 For sure.

1:17:38 Speaker 2 And, and everybody said he's not feeling well.

1:17:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:17:41 Speaker 2 Not feeling well.

1:17:42 Speaker 1 It wasn't a thing to say.

1:17:44 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:17:44 Speaker 1 You didn't describe him. The Rebbe's a malach.

1:17:46 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:17:46 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's something else. Uh, but all of a sudden you discovered-

1:17:51 Speaker 2 That-

1:17:52 Speaker 1 He's a human being

1:17:52 Speaker 2 ... the, the-

1:17:53 Speaker 1 When the Rebbe spoke the first time, his voice was very weak.

1:17:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:57 Speaker 1 Um, we didn't see the Rebbe for, for so many weeks. It took a lot.

1:18:03 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:18:04 Speaker 1 Um, we felt afterwards, and again, something the Rebbe was not happy. The minute the Rebbe started going out, our feeling was, "Stay away from the Rebbe." Like Chanukah, the Rebbe gave out dollars that year.

1:18:20 Speaker 2 First time.

1:18:21 Speaker 1 Um-

1:18:23 Speaker 2 It wasn't called dollars yet. It was Chanukah gelt.

1:18:25 Speaker 1 No, no.

1:18:25 Speaker 2 Chanukah gelt.

1:18:26 Speaker 1 It was Chanukah gelt.

1:18:27 Speaker 2 For kids.

1:18:28 Speaker 1 Y- No, for everyone.

1:18:29 Speaker 2 Everyone.

1:18:31 Speaker 1 And the approach was, our feeling was, "Stay away. Don't go."

1:18:37 Speaker 2 Leave him, like let, let him rest.

1:18:38 Speaker 1 Let him rest so, you know-

1:18:40 Speaker 2 Right

1:18:40 Speaker 1 ... if everyone will go, it'll take so many more hours. The Rebbe was not happy with these things. The Rebbe said, "We should make announcements, uh, at the later opportunities, things like that. Whoever is preventing people from coming over to me when I wanna-

1:18:56 Speaker 2 Right

1:18:57 Speaker 1 ... be with the people is, is fighting me." The Rebbe used very sharp word. The Rebbe called them, uh, a tipesh or something, used them like strong words.

1:19:07 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:19:07 Speaker 1 Don't hold yourself back. So the Rebbe's constantly sending messages, "I'm in full control."

1:19:14 Speaker 2 How do you square that with realizing that the Rebbe's a human being?

1:19:18 Speaker 1 That's-

1:19:19 Speaker 2 So the, there's two opposite-

1:19:21 Speaker 1 That's fine

1:19:21 Speaker 2 ... two opposite-

1:19:22 Speaker 1 Two opposites, yes

1:19:23 Speaker 2 ... two opposite ideas came out.

1:19:24 Speaker 1 Two opposite ideas, absolutely.

1:19:28 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:19:28 Speaker 1 And he lived with that.

1:19:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. I feel like, I feel like there was a massive turning point in the psychology of Chassidim vis-à-vis the Rebbe after

1:19:39 Speaker 1 Well, I'll give you

1:19:40 Speaker 2 No, I, I mean, I think there's a very direct line almost from there to what happened 14 years later, right?

1:19:46 Speaker 1 Uh, there is no question.

1:19:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:47 Speaker 1 There's no question.

1:19:48 Speaker 2 Like, like a real turn happened- ...

1:19:51 Speaker 1 Uh, there's no question. I mean-

1:19:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:53 Speaker 1 ... for example, the right after, when yeshiva had to start, after Tishrei, they-

1:20:00 Speaker 2 Right. Right

1:20:00 Speaker 1 ... started off by not letting bochurim learn in the zal upstairs. Everybody should learn downstairs.

1:20:06 Speaker 2 Why? The Rebbe was staying in his office the whole time?

1:20:08 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was in his office the whole time, yes.

1:20:09 Speaker 2 Ah, they didn't take him upstairs.

1:20:11 Speaker 1 No. No. The Rebbe was in his office the whole time. The Rebbe went upstairs a few times for, I think, for walks or things like that, but-

1:20:17 Speaker 2 But the Rebbe's hospital room, so to speak-

1:20:19 Speaker 1 Yes

1:20:19 Speaker 2 ... was-

1:20:19 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's hospital room was in his room all the way.

1:20:22 Speaker 2 His office.

1:20:22 Speaker 1 Yes. So they locked the front door of 770 and they-

1:20:27 Speaker 2 They didn't want any noise upstairs

1:20:28 Speaker 1 ... closed out the zal. And I don't remember if the Rebbe found out about it or the Rebbe asked, "How come I don't hear the ?" I'm not sure what it was.

1:20:38 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:20:38 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said, "I want the zal to be opened."

1:20:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:42 Speaker 1 "You should let the bochurim in." One thing that we did, we stopped smoking in the zal. Until then-

1:20:52 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:52 Speaker 1 ... the zal was a smoke-filled room.

1:20:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:55 Speaker 1 We stopped. I mean, we did take measures. I remember when the Rebbe came down for the first farbrengen, it was Kislev We-- I was, I guess, part of the Va'ad Hatzaddik, whatever, setting up the, the benches and, and we made a lot more space.

1:21:13 Speaker 2 Yutis Kislev.

1:21:14 Speaker 1 Yutis Kislev, Tov Shin Lamed Ches-

1:21:16 Speaker 2 Was the first time

1:21:16 Speaker 1 ... was the first time the Rebbe came down to Farbrengen in seven seventy.

1:21:20 Speaker 2 And it was a full Farbrengen?

1:21:22 Speaker 1 A full Farbrengen, yes.

1:21:24 Speaker 2 It went for hours like, uh-

1:21:26 Speaker 1 Not as many hours as in the past.

1:21:28 Speaker 2 So much shorter.

1:21:29 Speaker 1 Probably two and a half hours or whatever.

1:21:31 Speaker 2 A full Farbrengen with-

1:21:32 Speaker 1 A full Farbrengen. A full-

1:21:33 Speaker 2 With Gurnem Seches and Maimer.

1:21:34 Speaker 1 Absolutely, yes. And, uh, the Rebbe had monitors on him, like, uh-

1:21:38 Speaker 2 Even then?

1:21:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. The doctors were-- They say, was it then? That the calmest moment by the Rebbe, the doctor, was when the Rebbe said the Maimer. I think it was Dr. Resnick.

1:21:54 Speaker 2 I heard that about, about earlier-

1:21:56 Speaker 1 The first night

1:21:56 Speaker 2 ... about the Shabbos. Yeah.

1:21:58 Speaker 1 Yes. But I think then also.

1:21:59 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:22:00 Speaker 1 He ca-- He was sitting upstairs by the Rebbe's room-

1:22:02 Speaker 2 And he was worried-

1:22:03 Speaker 1 Watching them

1:22:03 Speaker 2 ...'cause it's not supposed to be so calm

1:22:04 Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, he saw that, uh, everything went flat. He ran down, and he sees the Rebbe saying the Maimer.

1:22:09 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:22:10 Speaker 1 So I think that was then. But when we prepared for the Farbrengen, so it used to be behind the Rebbe, there were three benches, three rows.

1:22:23 Speaker 2 Of Chassidim.

1:22:24 Speaker 1 Of Chassidim. So they were mammos on top of the Rebbe.

1:22:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:28 Speaker 1 Then I remember we made a change. We took away one row. There were only two.

1:22:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:22:32 Speaker 1 You moved back. And also you try to create-

1:22:37 Speaker 2 More space

1:22:37 Speaker 1 ... more space, whatever, call it fresh air, whatever we had in our minds.

1:22:43 Speaker 2 How did you negotiate with Chassidim who used to have their places?

1:22:46 Speaker 1 Eh, that was a tough one. It was a tough one.

1:22:48 Speaker 2 Sounds like Kibud-

1:22:49 Speaker 1 That's why I remember it

1:22:50 Speaker 2 ... sounds like, sounds like Kibudim and a Chupa.

1:22:52 Speaker 1 That's why I remember it because it was not an easy thing.

1:22:56 Speaker 2 No, no.

1:22:57 Speaker 1 But, uh, we had to do what we had to do. The same thing there was when the Rebbe would come down and daven around the Rebbe's place from then on when the Rebbe started coming Pesach. So the space-

1:23:09 Speaker 2 Oh, the, the two rows behind was from then on for good?

1:23:12 Speaker 1 That's it. It became-- It remained for good, yeah.

1:23:14 Speaker 2 And not just for then.

1:23:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. But it started then, and then when the Rebbe started coming down for davening-

1:23:21 Speaker 2 Right

1:23:21 Speaker 1 ... the space around the Rebbe's corner also widened.

1:23:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:26 Speaker 1 There were there, even the schwil.

1:23:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:29 Speaker 1 The schwil also-

1:23:30 Speaker 2 Became bigger

1:23:31 Speaker 1 ... became bigger. Later on, you couldn't because of the crowd.

1:23:35 Speaker 2 There was a, there, there was a sense that you had to, you had to pay proper attention to the Rebbe's health.

1:23:40 Speaker 1 You have to respect the Rebbe's health, the Rebbe's human-

1:23:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:23:46 Speaker 1 ... uh, whatever.

1:23:47 Speaker 2 But at the same time, the fact that the Rebbe overcame it and ca-- was even more prolific was the opposite message.

1:23:57 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:23:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:23:57 Speaker 1 That's what you dealt with.

1:23:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:24:00 Speaker 1 That's what you dealt with, absolutely.

1:24:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:24:02 Speaker 1 I mean, I mean, «» you know?

1:24:04 Speaker 2 I mean, so may-maybe that's also one of the reasons that people ask less questions then. It's, it's very hard to ask questions on something that is, that seems impossible to understand.

1:24:17 Speaker 1 Granted.

1:24:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:19 Speaker 1 I mean, I, uh, never thought I'll be in control of anything, of everything or anything.

1:24:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:27 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe is showing me he is in control.

1:24:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:30 Speaker 1 So-

1:24:31 Speaker 2 That's what Rebbetzin said about-

1:24:33 Speaker 1 Well, try to figure it out

1:24:34 Speaker 2 ... that's what the Rebbetzin said about the Rebbe by, by going to the hospital. She told Rabbi Krinsky, "This is..." Uh, I remember this is how I heard it, so obviously, you're hearing it from me remembering what someone else told me. But she said, um, that, "All the years that I know my husband, he has always been in control of himself."

1:24:54 Speaker 1 So yeah, I heard, yeah.

1:24:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, I heard the same thing, which is a, which is a fascinating statement that, like, the way she was, s- the way she defined him almost was ultimate self-control.

1:25:05 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And, and it's comes, this comes now le-- This can, we can take this leading up to the Rebbe said about the Friediker Rebbe all the time that he knew Yutrat was coming. He prepared for Yutrat, and he put everything in place.

1:25:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:25 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said he put everything in pla-- How the Rebbe said of himself, I don't know, but I trust him.

1:25:31 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:25:34 Speaker 1 I come back to the publishing of Chassidus that I mentioned to you before.

1:25:38 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:25:39 Speaker 1 The Rebbe always repeated many times, and, and, and you can hear sometimes pain, the Rebbe was sometimes choking up when he said the Rebbe Rashab said, "«»"

1:25:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:54 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe asked the question, "What, what benefit do I get from he left me «»?"

1:26:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:01 Speaker 1 "If he went in Himmel, if he's gone-

1:26:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:26:04 Speaker 1 ... what do I have from the «»?" And the Rebbe explained that the Rebbe is in the «»." The Rebbe's saying, "«» my body," or, "The way you look at me now, I'm probably gonna go to heaven."

1:26:16 Speaker 2 The Rebbe Rashab said that to the Friediker Rebbe directly or said to-

1:26:18 Speaker 1 Yes, the Friediker Rebbe

1:26:19 Speaker 2 ... said to, said to the Friediker Rebbe-

1:26:20 Speaker 1 Yes, yes

1:26:20 Speaker 2 ... on, on his-

1:26:21 Speaker 1 On that night, on the mammos

1:26:22 Speaker 2 On the night, on the night of the Petira.

1:26:24 Speaker 1 Yes. And the Rebbe would tell us in «» just like the Aibishte is «» that Aibishte put himself in Teter, a Rebbe puts himself in Teter. Now, it comes a certain point where if you want the Rebbe, he is in this forum, but not as a safer. You see, that's-

1:26:51 Speaker 2 Right, right

1:26:51 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe kept drilling it into us. Why? Why was it important?

1:26:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:56 Speaker 1 The Rebbe prepared us, and that's why he said, "I'll give you as much Chassidus as I can."

1:27:01 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:27:02 Speaker 1 And why do we need the Rebbe Rashab's Chassidus? Why do I need all the previous generations? Why the, why is it not enough, you know, we have two hundred and fifty «»-

1:27:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:27:11 Speaker 1 ... of the Rebbe alone? No, if you wanna really understand the Rebbe, you must learn earlier Chassidus.

1:27:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:27:18 Speaker 1 There's no way you can thoroughly understand the Rebbe if you don't know earlier Chassidus.

1:27:25 Speaker 2 Well, I, I would, I would think also it's because Rebbers Shabazz your Rebbe too. You have say, uh, Lubav-

1:27:31 Speaker 1 Fine.

1:27:32 Speaker 2 Right?

1:27:32 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not going into the theology of it.

1:27:35 Speaker 2 Right, right, right.

1:27:36 Speaker 1 I'm going into the-

1:27:37 Speaker 2 Practical

1:27:38 Speaker 1 ... how the Rebbe is simply-- He took every possible thing-

1:27:42 Speaker 2 No, because I'm saying it follows the same logic that-

1:27:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. I, I underst-

1:27:45 Speaker 2 ... you're talking about the Tzadok Lazagaich

1:27:47 Speaker 1 I understand.

1:27:47 Speaker 2 If, if, if that's, if, if a Rebbe can be found as a Rebbe in his Sfarim, so then in a way that means that the Rebbers Shabazz your Rebbe and the Filip Rebbe is your Rebbe and the Tzadok and, you know, they, they all were.

1:28:00 Speaker 1 But I am not going to subscribe. For example, you know, knowing so many Chassidim, I know, for example, there is a group-

1:28:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:28:10 Speaker 1 ... of Yemilite somewhere who they are called the Mittler Rebbe's Chassidim 'cause they're into the Mittler Rebbe's Chassidus. I, I'm, I'm, I'm aware of such a-

1:28:22 Speaker 2 Okay

1:28:22 Speaker 1 ... group of Yemilite. I don't think-

1:28:26 Speaker 2 They, they call themselves that or other people make fun of them that way?

1:28:29 Speaker 1 Uh, maybe other people make fun of them. I don't know. But-

1:28:31 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:28:31 Speaker 1 ... but they... I know they're into the Mittler Rebbe's Chassidus now. So-

1:28:35 Speaker 2 Sounds like there could be worse things.

1:28:37 Speaker 1 It's most beautiful thing. But to say, "Oh, we're going to start learning the Alter Rebbe's... We're gonna be the Alter Rebbe's Chassidim. We're gonna be the Mittler Rebbe's Chassidim."

1:28:49 Speaker 2 I agree.

1:28:49 Speaker 1 "We're gonna be the Tzadok's Chassidim." That I think-

1:28:52 Speaker 2 Sounds like people, sounds like people making fun of them

1:28:53 Speaker 1 ... even if the Rebbe is giving us all their Chassidus, we are still connected to them through the Rebbe.

1:29:01 Speaker 2 Fair.

1:29:02 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe is giving us all the tools, and the Rebbe made sure, "Guys, if you're gonna want me, you're gonna have me." But what the Rebbe's do- the Rebbe's doing something even more than that.

1:29:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:15 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, I don't know if it's a proper way of saying it, but he's in a way, he's forcing himself on us. He's showing us that he's there. He's showing us we can't manage without him, and he's showing us, "It's okay. I'm there."

1:29:32 Speaker 2 "Was passat."

1:29:33 Speaker 1 "I'm with you."

1:29:34 Speaker 2 But, but what's the Chassidus forcing-

1:29:35 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll tell you.

1:29:36 Speaker 2 What's Chassidus forcing?

1:29:36 Speaker 1 I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example. This is also one of those things that you, you bring up.

1:29:41 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:29:42 Speaker 1 The Rebbe started the first Farbrengen. He says, "Leit zikh nishke fegilechen, but don't think that you're gonna pick-

1:29:48 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:48 Speaker 1 ... yourself a Rebbe, he's gonna do the work, and you can all go tachas gafnei tachas den, so you can go-

1:29:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:53 Speaker 1 ... and enjoy your couch." No, you gotta work.

1:29:57 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:29:57 Speaker 1 You gotta step up to the plate. Then came Chof Ches Nissan.

1:30:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:07 Speaker 1 The way I see it-

1:30:08 Speaker 2 I, I mean, ju-just for people, you're talking about 42 year, uh-

1:30:11 Speaker 1 42 year, 40, 40, more like 40 years later.

1:30:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:30:16 Speaker 1 More correctly-

1:30:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:30:17 Speaker 1 ... it's 40 years later.

1:30:18 Speaker 2 You're right.

1:30:20 Speaker 1 After an entire year when the Rebbe spoke that it's 40 years, and also Hashem Lochem Lev Lada Asrei Nan, it's time you should stand on your own feet.

1:30:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:31 Speaker 1 Then the Rebbe says Chof Ches Nissan, uh, "Everything I have done, to do what?" Now, here I, I, I go against the grain-

1:30:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:30:46 Speaker 1 ... or most people, I think, literally misinterpret what the Rebbe says for no good reason. It seems like the message of the Rebbe was, "Everything I did to help bring Mashiach didn't work."

1:30:58 Speaker 2 You're talking about Zeh Havdulek?

1:30:59 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:31:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.