Ep. 43 // "The Narrative of Chassidus" w/ Rabbi Naftali Silberberg

00:00 Speaker 1 What separates Chabad from everyone else is dir b'tachtoynim. But if you look in the Tanya in beginning of perek lamed heh-

00:05 Speaker 2 Yeah

00:05 Speaker 1 ... so Alter Rebbe says there's a problem. The Bnei Menashe is wondering, "Why am I struggling?" Right? And then, and Alter Rebbe says, "And therefore, "lamachon b'keflayim."

00:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

00:12 Speaker 1 So I wanna introduce the idea. Ultimately, dir b'tachtoynim is the response to an emotional issue-

00:17 Speaker 2 Right

00:17 Speaker 1 ... that the struggler has in dealing with their struggle, and once you understand dir b'tachtoynim, everything becomes emotionally fine, which I find that incredible-

00:24 Speaker 2 Right

00:24 Speaker 1 ... how the deepest concept in Chabad-

00:26 Speaker 2 Ah, I see what you're saying

00:27 Speaker 1 ... is about, is about, is about Oved Hashem.

00:33 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty, I am here with Rabbi Naftali Silberberg in Crown Heights, the co-director of curriculum of JLI, and the host of Let's Start Tanya?

01:00 Speaker 1 Let's Talk Tanya.

01:00 Speaker 2 Let's Talk Tanya. A, a very popular podcast that covers the daily Tanya each and every day, both reg- both the regular year and hashanah habaris. Check it out. Anyway, I'm very happy to have you on. It's the first time we're meeting. Um, you even had to remind me your first name. That's how fresh all this is, um, which I think is kinda cool. Um, I, I know that we haven't spoken much about what we're gonna talk about. It's kind of open-ended, which is also pretty cool. Um, why-- so why don't we just start from the beginning of, uh, who are you? Where do you come from? How did this all begin? And how did we end up here surrounded by all these seforim? This is, this is a true expression of Bayis Moel Seforim. Give us a little bit of the path.

01:51 Speaker 1 Okay, so we'll start with the last question about the Bayis Moel Seforim. So they talk a lot of seforim around here, but all the seforim on the table, actually, they're my sons'. And he left off to yeshiva, and he left the seforim on the table for me to take care of it. That's a story all for itself.

02:05 Speaker 2 Fair enough.

02:06 Speaker 1 Anyways, um, so yeah. So my name is Naftali Silberberg, and I am originally from Michigan. So I was born here in Crown Heights in תש"ך, תש"ו. And when I was six weeks old, my parents went off on shlichus to Michigan. And as a little baby, I-- my parents went into chitas b'derabbi before they went out, so I-- I'm told I was there also, so that's something very special. And, um-

02:33 Speaker 2 So you're the oldest in your family?

02:34 Speaker 1 No, I have an older brother.

02:36 Speaker 2 You have an older brother. At the Rosh Yeshiva in Chicago?

02:39 Speaker 1 That's correct. So I grew up in, um, I grew up in Michigan. I went to the cheder over there. And then when I was thirteen, fourteen, in other words, when I was thirteen turning fourteen, so I came to Ohel Torah. I was mosifta for, for two years, and then I did, uh, I did the rounds. I was to Montreal, I was in Israel, and then I came back to Ohel Torah, and that's, uh, for, you know, for sure knowledge, and that's, uh, that's basically, uh, my story.

03:08 Speaker 2 Hold on one second, one second. So you, you were bar mitzvah, according to my math, in the late mems. You went to Montreal and Israel when?

03:18 Speaker 1 Montreal was תש"ן and Israel was נג and ד.

03:22 Speaker 2 Okay. So you're not the first person who I've met on this podcast who's told me this kind of surprising tale. I've never understood, uh, why people would leave and/or go away from 770 in those years. What was, what was the, what was the rationale?

03:41 Speaker 1 So I-

03:42 Speaker 2 You know what? How about we start a step earlier. What was it... You first came to Ohel Torah, you said? You first came to Ohel Torah from Detroit when? In mem tes, you said?

03:50 Speaker 1 Mem tes. Elul, mem tes, yeah.

03:51 Speaker 2 What was that like? Uh, coming-- like growing up in Detroit, we don't have to go into the whole Detroit if, unless you want to, unless you feel like it's necessary to the story to describe what Detroit was like, but...

04:03 Speaker 1 No, because I didn't really grow up in Detroit.

04:05 Speaker 2 Right.

04:06 Speaker 1 Even though I went to cheder, but my parents, their place of shlichus is, um, it was like a 20-minute drive away from what's called Oak Park, which is where we're nine miles. You ever, ever been there, like where the, um-

04:16 Speaker 2 No, but my-

04:16 Speaker 1 ... where the Lubavitch community is

04:17 Speaker 2 ... spiritually, I'm from there. My, my grandfather, Meir Offson, lived there for many years.

04:21 Speaker 1 Oh, right. I remember. I remember his shul.

04:23 Speaker 2 Gasthalter Shul.

04:24 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, I, I, I davened there on Shabbos once or twice in his shul, even I, I was very far away from where we lived, but when I went to a Shabbos-

04:30 Speaker 2 Right

04:30 Speaker 1 ... to a friend's over there.

04:32 Speaker 2 Right.

04:32 Speaker 1 Um, so yes, I actually remember that. When did he move, uh, to Crown Heights?

04:37 Speaker 2 My, my k- my, my uncles are gonna kill me 'cause I don't know the exact date. Um, I think it was... My, my grandmother got ill in the mid-'80s.

04:46 Speaker 1 Right.

04:47 Speaker 2 And I think it was around then. Um, I don't know exactly what year.

04:50 Speaker 1 I definitely remember davening in his shul. I don't remember if he was there or not.

04:52 Speaker 2 No, but if you, if you were born in the '70s, you, you probably remember him as a kid, and I think, and I think it was around then.

04:58 Speaker 1 I believe also, if I remember correctly, that he was the shochet for kaparos.

05:03 Speaker 2 That I never heard. I know that he worked in a sh- like in a meat plant as a job. I didn't know that he was a shochet.

05:09 Speaker 1 My memory might be wrong on this, and you can tell, tell us like this, but I believe he-

05:11 Speaker 2 Say you live in Crown Heights, so my uncles will come after you. They're not gonna come -

05:15 Speaker 1 Okay. I mean, knowing your uncles, they will. Yes.

05:16 Speaker 2 It, it'll be all right.

05:18 Speaker 1 Um-

05:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, but he, he left quite a mark on the town, I have to tell you. This is something that you'd appreciate. I was there last year for a video project, nothing to do with this podcast, and I interviewed none other than Rabbi Uri Bakst, who, who, you know, if you're, if you're from Detroit, you'll appreciate. There's a, the Rosh Yeshiva of the Litvish yeshiva there, big white beard, has all the markings of a, of a godol, and he's respected there like that. And I went to interview him for a different project, and when he heard Offson Gastalter, he gave me such a hug and such a kiss, and I was like, "What kind of Litvak is this guy?" He was like completely... I was completely blown away. Um, and it was just, he was, he had such a warm memory of this, um, you know- R- Chassid that he grew up, 'cause he grew up as a classmate with my uncle, I think Isaac. And, um, yeah, he told, told me a little story how, like, what Yitzchok's Kislev, uh, my grandfather, nobody to farbrengen with one year, so he farbrenged with, uh, my uncle Isaac and this Reb Yudi Baks as little kids, and they ended up a little bit shikker on the bench in the shul, and his father, the first rosh yeshiva, had to come pick him up.

06:28 Speaker 1 Reb Leibel.

06:29 Speaker 2 Yes. I, I thought you'd appreciate that anyway.

06:31 Speaker 1 So one second, this is, uh, interesting, uh, what you're telling me. Did you mention to him that you're also a Shuntov?

06:39 Speaker 2 When, when I'm in Detroit, I don't care-

06:40 Speaker 1 No, I'll tell your wife. I'll tell your wife.

06:41 Speaker 2 Well, that's a different Shuntov that he would know.

06:43 Speaker 1 No.

06:43 Speaker 2 No. Oh, okay.

06:44 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll tell your wife. Because in the last year when I was in Detroit, so this is when I was... I'm 13 years old, so I'm over there in the yeshiva over there, and as I mentioned to you before the interview, at that time I was chavrusa with your uncle, Shimi Shuntov.

06:55 Speaker 2 Right.

06:56 Speaker 1 My father decided that, uh, we need to get... that I need to get a little more. So he arranged with Reb Yudi that I should go together with my chavrusa once a week, so we went and we learnt Michas Chinuch with him.

07:08 Speaker 2 How about that? Wow.

07:09 Speaker 1 So yes, so me and Shimi Shuntov, we went every week and we learnt with Reb Yudi Michas Chinuch. So that's why I'm asking you if you mentioned-

07:15 Speaker 2 Ah

07:16 Speaker 1 ... because, because you mi- I'm sure he remembers that.

07:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm sure he remembers. But yeah.

07:18 Speaker 1 And a- actually, I bumped into him a little while ago.

07:20 Speaker 2 No, no, I wa- I, I wasn't coming to, like, present my bona fides.

07:23 Speaker 1 Okay.

07:23 Speaker 2 It's just my last name was Afsin. He's like, "Oh, you're Afsin." Yeah, like...

07:25 Speaker 1 I understand. Well, it's just interesting-

07:27 Speaker 2 Yeah

07:27 Speaker 1 ... the connection over there. And just by the way, Reb, Reb Yudi sent his children to the cheder.

07:31 Speaker 2 All right. Yeah, I mean, he, he-

07:33 Speaker 1 No, that's a... that's not a... But that's... he sent the, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a Litvisher yeshiva over there which his father was the rosh yeshiva of.

07:41 Speaker 2 He didn't send his kids there?

07:41 Speaker 1 No, he sent his two boys to the cheder, the Lubavitcher cheder, where there's no Limud HaChayil whatsoever. In other words, because this, he understood that this is the, the best, uh, chinuch possible. And when I was there in cheder, his, his sons were there in cheder.

07:53 Speaker 2 How about that? I don't know, he, he struck me as a very Varme Yid.

07:56 Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah. A very, very Varme Yid.

07:58 Speaker 2 I, I know there's, you know, I know there's always the-

08:00 Speaker 1 A very Varme Yid

08:00 Speaker 2 ... the typical community politics, but, uh, he struck me-

08:02 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no. And my father was very close with his, uh, with his father, Reb Leibel.

08:07 Speaker 2 The one who founded the yeshiva?

08:09 Speaker 1 One of... It was, you know, universally recognized as a, as a gadol, and my father was very close to him.

08:14 Speaker 2 Well, he passed away since, since. No? The father.

08:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, but I'm saying-

08:17 Speaker 2 Saying Yudi's, Yudi's now the gadol

08:17 Speaker 1 ... but today you go to the yeshiva, you go to Litvishe yeshiva and, and you me-mention Reb Leibel Baks, they, they don't know what you're talking about.

08:22 Speaker 2 Now Rabbi Yudi Baks is one the gedolim, yeah.

08:24 Speaker 1 My father would bring Reb Leibel to the Sima HaRambams over there. It was, um-

08:28 Speaker 2 Right

08:28 Speaker 1 ... so there's a relationship over there.

08:30 Speaker 2 All right. So, so we, so we already covered a little bit of the Detroit scene.

08:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, but at the same time, I wasn't in Detroit.

08:35 Speaker 2 I understand.

08:36 Speaker 1 I wasn't in Detroit. By the way, your grandfather didn't live mamash in the Lubavitch kehillah.

08:40 Speaker 2 No, a couple-

08:40 Speaker 1 Lubavitch kehillah was nine miles, like a mile away.

08:42 Speaker 2 Yeah, a couple miles.

08:43 Speaker 1 Which is weird. The Litvishe Ohel Moshe-

08:44 Speaker 2 Right

08:44 Speaker 1 ... which is why it makes sense what you're saying about, um-

08:47 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right.

08:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. So you're asking how was it come from Detroit to Ohel Torah, so I'm explaining to you, I was more... we were in a shlichus. We, we were in, in a shlichus area. It was a non-frum neighborhood altogether.

08:57 Speaker 2 Right.

08:58 Speaker 1 And, um, so I came to Ohel Torah.

09:00 Speaker 2 You know, just a year ago, I was sitting right here recording the intro to the podcast, and at the time it was just an idea. Sitting here today thinking about where the podcast has gone, I'd be lying if I told you that I had any of that in mind when I began a year ago. The podcast has led me to travel across the country, out of the country, to meet so many fascinating people, most of whom I'd never heard of before, certainly not met before, and to spend hours with them hearing their absolutely fascinating stories and ideas and perspectives, and then of course to share it with thousands of people around the world. One of the most precious parts of working on this project has been the response that I've gotten from people around the world. The graciousness and kindness and positivity has been something that I never dreamt of. Over the past year, this podcast has been completely self-funded, which is something I have absolutely zero regrets about. It has been an absolute blast, a journey of a lifetime, an experience of a lifetime, and when I think about it, probably the most important work I've ever done. But as I look towards the coming year or years of this project, God willing, I now invite you, the listeners of Homesick for Lubavitch, to take part in making this project more sustainable. So I've created a website, hflpodcast.com, where there will be a full archive and library of all the episodes of Homesick for

10:34 Speaker 2 Lubavitch, and there will also be a link there to support the podcast, either with a monthly contribution or a one-time contribution, either of which will help make this podcast something that will be permanent, something that will be sustainable, something that will grow, something that will continue to make all of us more proud and more hopeful and more grateful to be who we are.

11:00 Speaker 1 So i-i-I was 13. It wasn't, uh, the, the... there wasn't a culture shock in that sense of, wow, this is Detroit and now we're coming to Ohel Torah, and it's... it wasn't, it wasn't that way. And then-

11:12 Speaker 2 Really? Really? 'Cause people describe Ohel Torah in those years as, like, a very wild place, to put it mildly.

11:21 Speaker 1 Okay. But I was a wild kid, so I guess I fit in. And, uh-

11:25 Speaker 2 I'm saying it wasn't, like, on whee- like, the description of it being on wheels-

11:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

11:28 Speaker 2 ... and, like, there not being enough chairs in the basement shul, and it didn't have a place, and, like...

11:32 Speaker 1 I don't remember that so much. And at the end of the day for me, that was really my first yeshiva, 'cause Detroit, again, it was, uh-

11:38 Speaker 2 You're much younger

11:38 Speaker 1 ... I was much younger, yes. So my first yeshiva. Ohel Torah didn't really work out for me.

11:43 Speaker 2 Ohel Torah didn't work out for you?

11:44 Speaker 1 No. That's when... You asked my, my-

11:45 Speaker 2 Because there was no sei there?

11:47 Speaker 1 No. Because... How, how personal do I have to get over here?

11:51 Speaker 2 As-

11:52 Speaker 1 It didn't work out.

11:53 Speaker 2 Personal is better for ratings, but that's up to you.

11:55 Speaker 1 Not all yeshivas work out for all Bachurim, not all Bachurim work out for all yeshivas.

11:59 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to find out your personal Yitzhar. I'm trying to figure out the, the atmosphere. What's relevant to other people is not your secrets. What's relevant to other people is what was Crown Heights like then? 'Cause there, there is a lot of mythology about Crown Heights, uh, the mems. If you lived in the mems, you would be X, Y, Z. I'm sure you've heard people talk that way, and I'm not trying to throw cold water on it.

12:22 Speaker 1 Actually, I don't, uh-

12:23 Speaker 2 I don't think you said-

12:24 Speaker 1 I guess I don't, I, I don't go in those circles. I just, I, I don't recall anyone-

12:27 Speaker 2 Mah mish.

12:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I guess I'm not your age, which is-

12:29 Speaker 2 Fair. Fair. Fair. I, I-

12:31 Speaker 1 Y-

12:31 Speaker 2 You know, people say, "Oh, back in the day," this, that, the other, and I, I think there's a lot of mythology. I'm not trying to throw cold water on it. I'm not trying to like, you know, you know, let's bash it, but like, it's interesting when you speak to people who were there, and you're like, "Yeah, it didn't work out." So that, that's what I'm, that's what I'm getting at. But if, if, if that's where we should leave it, that's where we'll leave it.

12:50 Speaker 1 No, it's not that I, um... There's nothing, there's nothing sec-secrets over here. I didn't do well in yeshiva. I went when I said I went from my father pulled me out of Aterta, and from there I went-

12:58 Speaker 2 You weren't learning, basically.

12:59 Speaker 1 No, learning was never my issue. It was behavior things and keeping Seder, and, um, so I went to Montreal for a year, and that didn't work out for me. And then all, and then in Eretz Yisrael, three different yeshivas in Eretz Yisrael, if you're getting the drift over here. Okay.

13:14 Speaker 2 Okay, I'm a bit slow. Now I'm getting it.

13:16 Speaker 1 Okay. So like, this, it's not a secret, but yeah-

13:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, no

13:19 Speaker 1 ... I did not, I did not do well in yeshiva.

13:20 Speaker 2 You had a hard time-

13:21 Speaker 1 But it-

13:21 Speaker 2 You had a hard time dealing with the str- with the structure and-

13:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

13:25 Speaker 2 ... and discipline of yeshiva.

13:25 Speaker 1 And a few years ago, I was diagnosed with ADHD, and I'm like, "Wow, okay, now some things are beginning to make sense." You know, maybe why I couldn't sit in yeshiva from seven thirty in the morning to seven thirty at night. And even now, by the way, you tell me to sit in yeshiva seven thirty in the morning to seven thirty at night, I'm like, "I can't do that."

13:38 Speaker 2 You can't do that.

13:39 Speaker 1 No. So yeah, that's a discussion all for itself. Do the yeshivas, do they need to create alternative, um, um, frameworks or programs for kids who aren't exactly made? In other words, I was never-

13:50 Speaker 2 But you said you didn't have a problem learning.

13:52 Speaker 1 No, I love learning.

13:52 Speaker 2 You like, you love learning.

13:53 Speaker 1 I love learning.

13:54 Speaker 2 So how does that compute? You-

13:55 Speaker 1 Because it's not connected.

13:56 Speaker 2 You, when you're learning, you're learning. But like to sit down-

13:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:59 Speaker 2 ... and learn whenever you're told to learn is the hard part.

14:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And the long, the long sidur, and like, what do I... Like, like I was always, I was busy learning. I was busy reading. Like I was in, I was in Eretz Yisrael in those two years, and I was in Eretz Yisrael when I didn't do any yeshiva, but I managed to go through the whole Torah as Monachum, the Svadias at the time, from Bembeist to Memzain, just on my own time. I always had a yashmak in learning. I enjoyed it. But with the, the structure and the one day-

14:19 Speaker 2 You're more ad hoc. You're a more ad hoc.

14:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:23 Speaker 2 Well, how did the Rebbe factor into all of this? Like being by the Rebbe, being away from the Rebbe, was that a thing at that age, at that time?

14:32 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe factored in a very, very huge way in that the fact that I saw the Rebbe, I not only just saw him once. What I'm saying is that I was here two years, and I was here Tosh Nanom, Tosh Nan Alf, and I was here Shabbos by Fabringen.

14:47 Speaker 2 Right.

14:48 Speaker 1 And, um, the one thing by me was the emes was clear. There was no place for any, for any doubts.

14:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:00 Speaker 1 'Cause when you saw the Rebbe, and this is, I'm not telling you what I heard from my grandfather or something. You saw the kos, you saw the emes, and that's something which you can't escape from. So when you're thinking of maybe this path, maybe the other path, and you're like...

15:15 Speaker 2 You had doubts beforehand?

15:16 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's my, the Rebbe... When you, I don't know, when you say doubts, you have to be very clear. You know, I'm not sure what you mean by doubts.

15:22 Speaker 2 No, you said that there are no doubts when you see the Rebbe. I'm asking you-

15:24 Speaker 1 Like in terms of my direction-

15:25 Speaker 2 ... if that was a hindrance for you

15:26 Speaker 1 ... in terms of my direction in life, what do I wanna do? Do I wanna do, you know, do I wanna become a mashgiach? Do I wanna go into this, or do I wanna maybe become a lawyer? Whatever it may be. And then there was like, no, there isn't... There like, I, my, my, my path in life was clear to me-

15:40 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

15:40 Speaker 1 ... because I saw the Rebbe.

15:41 Speaker 2 So clarity.

15:42 Speaker 1 Yes.

15:43 Speaker 2 Clarity.

15:43 Speaker 1 And that clarity continues for me till this very day.

15:46 Speaker 2 Because of those few years, even-

15:47 Speaker 1 Hundred percent

15:48 Speaker 2 ... even though yeshiva wasn't working out for you.

15:49 Speaker 1 Yeshiva didn't work. That's nothing to do with, uh-

15:52 Speaker 2 No, I'm understanding

15:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:53 Speaker 2 I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to, to, to analyze it a little bit. So it, you know, you're in this, you're in this situation here where the yeshiva is not, yeshiva is not working out. But, but there's, there is something else that is, that is, that you would think might be connected. Like today, a lot of times people would be like, "Okay, a bachur, yeshiva doesn't work for him. He's probably not interested in, in anything. Like he's like a oysvorf." You know what I mean? And here you're saying like you sh- you're at odds with that haola, it sounds like. But on a different level, you're completely not at odds.

16:27 Speaker 1 I'm in, a hundred percent.

16:28 Speaker 2 Right.

16:28 Speaker 1 Right.

16:28 Speaker 2 That's what's interesting.

16:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:30 Speaker 2 That's what's interesting.

16:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:32 Speaker 2 I mean, and that seems to be something that's very much different between pre-Gamal towns and post-Gamal towns, this kind of idea like where like, you know, people would have a problem with the institution, but you know, with, but you know, they're aligned with the Rebbe. There is that... There, there does seem to be that kind of phenomenon back then.

16:51 Speaker 1 Right. And also then, even if you weren't a learner, which by the way wasn't my issue. But even then-

16:55 Speaker 2 Right

16:55 Speaker 1 ... we know that there are some people that they're, they're not, uh-

16:58 Speaker 2 Right

16:58 Speaker 1 ... that's not their thing. So there were other multiple paths. You, in other words, you can be someone who hung around seven seventy and knew every single, you know, and, and, and it was a certain other path of directly through the Rebbe.

17:10 Speaker 2 There's a life. There's a life.

17:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

17:14 Speaker 2 A, a side question. H-how did your ADD impact you by the Rebbe's farbrengen?

17:20 Speaker 1 So-

17:20 Speaker 2 Your undiagnosed ADD.

17:24 Speaker 1 So the ma- the bigger issues that I had by the Rebbe's farbrengens were, number one, um, this is like everything's coming out. I'm har- I'm, I'm a little hard of hearing. Um-

17:32 Speaker 2 So it's good we put on the headphones.

17:34 Speaker 1 Sorry?

17:34 Speaker 2 It's good, it's, it's good we-

17:35 Speaker 1 Sorry? It's, yeah.

17:36 Speaker 2 It's good we put on the headphones.

17:37 Speaker 1 No, but it's specifically when there's like a crowd noise.

17:40 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:40 Speaker 1 So for example, the Rebbe's haftera, I, the only time I ever heard Rebbe's haftera was on fast days because then there was no crowd in seven seventy, and there was no noise, so you're able to hear.

17:48 Speaker 2 No, one second.

17:49 Speaker 1 But on Shabbos-

17:49 Speaker 2 Why wasn't there a crowd? People were hungry?

17:52 Speaker 1 On a mincha, on a, at three fifteen on a, on a, on a weekday? What crowd? Shabbos, there's a whole-

17:56 Speaker 2 Oh, oh, oh, you're saying 'cause... Okay. Not, not to... Because a fast is the only time that there's haftera in the weekday.

18:01 Speaker 1 Correct.

18:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

18:02 Speaker 1 Right.

18:03 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:03 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, yes. But on Shabbos, because it, it's a full seven seventy-

18:05 Speaker 2 Sure

18:06 Speaker 1 ... and people in the back are busy talking the entire time while, while the Rebbe's doing the haftera, and your un- your great uncle's busy baking on the, on the bimah.

18:15 Speaker 2 Oh, yisroel.

18:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. To get everyone to be quiet. But I ne- so even if I was mamash, I was never able to hear it. Other people did hear. And also when they were davening for the amud, I had difficulty hearing. And bechavreining in Ma'anach Hashem also because you have to realize that I, my... neither of my parents are, um, come from a Lubavitch Hasidic bais.

18:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

18:31 Speaker 1 So when I landed here in New York at the age of, uh, fourteen, so I had... And my older brother was here, but he was also a tzadik coming there from two years before me. So there was no mechutanim, there was no connections, there was no nothing, right?

18:42 Speaker 2 Right.

18:43 Speaker 1 It was the... I'm like, uh, thrown into the... How do you say? Like the, without the pool, without a-

18:48 Speaker 2 The washing machine.

18:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, quite literally the washing machine when it came to Rosh Hashana because there's no one at all. You know, everyone else had theirs hanging from their chains, which they had from, from chazzakas from years before.

18:57 Speaker 2 Right.

18:57 Speaker 1 So the, the place where I was, chutz v'land, people didn't really hear. But me, befrat, I didn't hear. And I have, I found out also years later, I have flat feet. So now I, now I have orthotics in the, in them. Also, and also I realized that the, uh, the, the-

19:10 Speaker 2 Well, what does flat feet have to do with anything? It hurts to stand?

19:12 Speaker 1 So it hurts to stand. I would be in pain.

19:14 Speaker 2 Ah. Flat feet makes you-

19:14 Speaker 1 I'd be standing by the chevra in pain.

19:17 Speaker 2 Wow.

19:17 Speaker 1 And I couldn't hear anything. So it was just a... That was an experience. But at the end of the day it was the chevra, and there every Shabbos.

19:23 Speaker 2 And what was that feeling like? It, 'cause it's very interesting to me because I think, again, there's a mythology about chevra is where like everybody was there, everybody was listening, everybody understood it.

19:32 Speaker 1 In my time is most people couldn't hear.

19:34 Speaker 2 Right, right. So that's what I'm trying-

19:35 Speaker 1 Or shofar.

19:35 Speaker 2 Right.

19:36 Speaker 1 But, but, but still the people came with a kabbalah saying there's no question that those chevra had an incredible uplifting impact and, and by the negunim and the Rebbe-

19:43 Speaker 2 What did you enjoy about it?

19:48 Speaker 1 I, I don't know how to answer that.

19:49 Speaker 2 Hmm.

19:51 Speaker 1 It, it, it's being in a, in a different, um, in a-

19:55 Speaker 2 So when they was talking, you're just looking at his face. What, what's going on there?

19:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. More or less.

20:00 Speaker 2 All right.

20:00 Speaker 1 Your mind could be wandering also, but at the end of the day, the, this is the place, this is the place to be. It was, um-

20:06 Speaker 2 Right. Hmm. Hmm.

20:13 Speaker 1 So, so where were we?

20:17 Speaker 2 No, it's, uh, I find it, I find it fascinating. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not in disbelief. I'm not, I'm not like, uh... I'm not trying to-

20:23 Speaker 1 I'm not your typical story either.

20:25 Speaker 2 Say that... I'm not, I'm not trying to project or to extrapolate from your story to everybody else's story. But, uh, you know, each person that you meet from that time, I think it's, it's interesting to see how the individuals were operating. You know, as... Where does mythologies come from? Mythologies come from generalizing.

20:40 Speaker 1 It's like the ninth time you said the word mythology.

20:42 Speaker 2 I like the word. I, my, my vocabulary is limited. What do you want me to do? Um, no, but it... I think the... I, I don't have a similar-

20:49 Speaker 1 No, you said also earlier there are mythologies going on around about the mems. Like what, what, like what are you talking about?

20:54 Speaker 2 I'm talking about, I'm talking about the... When, when I say mythology, it's these generalizations of a time where things used to be like this, and people were like that, and-

21:06 Speaker 1 For example

21:06 Speaker 2 ... Oh, if you lived, like I said, if you lived in the mems, the gute tzeiten, the gute yorn, everybody was, everybody was beseid ich in yorn. And people weren't, you know, if the Rebbe was here, X, Y, Z would be this way. People talk this way all the time. I, I don't have a list offhand, but I don't feel like I'm making something up by, by, um, by seeing that era as, as mythologized. Now, by mythologized, I don't mean falsified, and I don't mean, I don't mean peop-people being deceitful. I just think that there's generalizations, right? And, you know, the chevra was like this, and people were like that. Or even forget about what people tell me. You look at a video of chevra of the mems, and you see hundreds if not thousands of Bochur shakling. You don't know them. You don't know what's going on in their mind. So there's only the appearance that you see, which is the avira, right? And, and it's interesting to me, someone who's younger, who wasn't there, to, you know, talk to someone like you who was there and hear what you were, what, what you were thinking, what you were feeling, right? Um, uh, what's... You asked me why I care if it's a mythology or not. Because frankly, mythologies don't speak to me, especially when I, when I feel that they're a mythology. So I, I, I... What does speak to me is f- you know, actual accounts and kind of the, the differences.

22:28 Speaker 2 That, may-maybe that's just me.

22:29 Speaker 1 Okay.

22:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, so, so you're, you're, you're by, you're, you're by the, you're by the, you're by the chevra, and, uh, you're, you're, you feel a sense of clarity, but then you realize that you can't stay in Crown Heights anymore, right? 'Cause yeshiva isn't working for you. Um, was... What, what did that do to your sense of clarity now that you're away from Crown Heights, now you're away from the Rebbe's chutzah? Was that a thing?

22:58 Speaker 1 It didn't, it didn't, it didn't do anything.

23:00 Speaker 2 Hmm.

23:00 Speaker 1 Nothing significantly changed. And also still, I, I was still a younger boy.

23:04 Speaker 2 Right.

23:05 Speaker 1 I was fifteen when I left Crown Heights.

23:06 Speaker 2 Right.

23:08 Speaker 1 And it probably would've been different if I was eighteen or nineteen.

23:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

23:12 Speaker 1 So at fifteen, still you're also... you're not really getting... Like, there is the makif-

23:19 Speaker 2 Hmm

23:19 Speaker 1 ... like I, which I, which I explained. Now, that makif gives the clarity, but, um, it's not as if I was so into everything to the point that it was, you know, difficult for me to stand up and to move away. That wasn't, uh... That happened more later. Um, like for example, I know that in Tosh Nan Gimmel, so as I said, Tosh Nan Gimmel I was in, in Eretz Israel. In Tosh Nan Daled, so-

23:44 Speaker 2 So you went to Eretz Israel after, after-

23:45 Speaker 1 After Montreal

23:46 Speaker 2 ... after Chaza Elazar?

23:47 Speaker 1 Yes. In Tosh Nan Daled I was able to, uh, um... So I came to York and, uh, for Elul I went to Chevra to be here. And I want... Then by this time already I'm like a little older. I was turning eighteen, and I wanted to be here. And I wrote into the Rebbe and I asked whether I should stay in Chevra or go back to Eretz Israel, and the Rebbe said, responded I should go back to Eretz Israel. This is, uh, like Elul or Tosh Nan Gimmel. So I'm trying to point out that this is like two years later. At that point already I was mature and older enough to the point that, like, now it was really bothering me that I had to be away.

24:17 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:17 Speaker 1 And, um-

24:18 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:20 Speaker 1 Now, what's interesting is you're more interested in me. I get that. I mean, I don't get that, but what I'm saying is like taking this conversation to, like, where I am today, which is with a big Koch and Tanya. So and I'm sure we're gonna get there.

24:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:35 Speaker 1 But, um-

24:36 Speaker 2 Sure.

24:39 Speaker 1 So Tanya, I started learning in Tosh Nan Gimmel in Chabad. I was eighteen year old bocher then. And I don't know why-

24:44 Speaker 2 In Tosh Nan Gimmel?

24:45 Speaker 1 Nan Daled.

24:46 Speaker 2 Oh, so you, you got an answer... Sorry, sorry, I forgot. I, I missed that. To go back?

24:49 Speaker 1 Yes.

24:49 Speaker 2 The answer was to go back.

24:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. And by the way, that was incredible.

24:52 Speaker 2 To go back?

24:53 Speaker 1 No, to get an answer. It was like the only time that I actually got an answer from the Rebbe.

24:57 Speaker 2 Right. You were old enough to ask a question and get an answer.

25:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. And to get an answer, and it didn't really make a difference what the answer was.

25:05 Speaker 2 Right.

25:06 Speaker 1 The very fact that I got that answer, and now I know that I'm doing exactly what I need to do and what I have to do, it was, it was this incredible feeling.

25:15 Speaker 2 Right. Hmm.

25:18 Speaker 1 When you say, "Ein simcha k'toras gefest", I experienced that at, uh, at that time.

25:23 Speaker 2 Hmm. So you went... So you're learning Tanya in Chabad?

25:28 Speaker 1 As a extracurricular activity, which goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that w- I was always into the, into learning, but to me it was more about the extracurricular than the actual curricular.

25:36 Speaker 2 What's perhaps you started learning? You never learned Tanya before, now you're really being ma'ayan in it, you're really thinking about it.

25:41 Speaker 1 I never learnt it myself.

25:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

25:44 Speaker 1 So in Mesivta, there was a, you know, you had, you got classes on Tanya.

25:47 Speaker 2 Right.

25:48 Speaker 1 But that's, you know.

25:49 Speaker 2 Right.

25:49 Speaker 1 Talking about null terra. And then after that, the next two years, I don't believe that there was... Once, once you entered Beis Medrash, so I don't believe, uh... And also, you know, Mesivta, so you learnt a few prakim, but it wasn't a, a serious, like, "I'm learning this and I need to understand it." In Mesivta, you sit in class, and you got tested on it afterwards, and that's it. It's not a-

26:06 Speaker 2 And what inspired you to learn Tanya?

26:08 Speaker 1 I don't remember.

26:09 Speaker 2 You don't remember.

26:09 Speaker 1 I don't remember, but I decided I'm starting, and I sta- I took it seriously, and back then there weren't the resources today, that, that there are today in terms of Tanya. Like if you look over there, I have, I have two shelves of sefarim on Tanya. Uh, every... Today, and by the way, there's another two shelves that I don't have 'cause , it's hard to keep up already with, uh, the sefarim that are coming out on a daily basis on Tanya these days.

26:29 Speaker 2 You're saying new sefarim?

26:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But back then, well, there was no Sefas Emes, there wasn't, uh-

26:36 Speaker 2 Right

26:36 Speaker 1 ... there wasn't obviously the Brown set what's called HaMaayans HaBateira. There wasn't, uh, Kinyan HaTanya from, uh... It wasn't all, it wasn't all that.

26:44 Speaker 2 You had, you had Reb Yael's tapes?

26:46 Speaker 1 Reb Yael tapes. That's it. Yeah, but I didn't have them. So what did you have? You had Shir HaMesilat Tanya. I remember like, you know, I had the Biur He'Ra Nag on Tanya. Like, you know, it was so-

26:55 Speaker 2 It's a nice sefar.

26:56 Speaker 1 There was the Maayans Sefer.

26:56 Speaker 2 It's a nice sefar. You don't like it?

26:58 Speaker 1 It's fine. I don't even remember. I remember I, I still use it, but you know, I don't have it now. Is it even in print?

27:03 Speaker 2 I just remember I found it once in my grandparents' house. I enjoyed it. It was, it, it was also... It's, it's very unusual, like it's w- written with a breadth guide. It's not like, you know, this Chassid said this line. It's like a shir.

27:15 Speaker 1 He had permission to, from, I think, from the Rebbe to, to make his own Pirush on Tanya also which-

27:21 Speaker 2 So- So there's...

27:22 Speaker 1 Careful about.

27:23 Speaker 2 Still? People are still careful?

27:26 Speaker 1 Good question. Um, so you have that Korf Sefer, which is very good by the way. Under you sefer.

27:36 Speaker 2 That- That, that's a collection of alte pirushim, right? That one?

27:39 Speaker 1 Collection of piru-- And also some of his own explanations.

27:42 Speaker 2 Right. But things that he heard in yeshiva, like, yeah, like, uh-

27:44 Speaker 1 Part of them all

27:45 Speaker 2 ... and this must be and that must be that one, right?

27:49 Speaker 1 You're thinking about the, the Brad Sefer from Kirchik?

27:51 Speaker 2 That's a separate one.

27:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's, uh, from, from .

27:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

27:55 Speaker 1 Which the Rebbe, by the way, was very involved in the publication and he, you know, I know, I don't know if they have edited the whole thing, but there are definitely parts where you see the Rebbe's, uh, hagahos on it. Um, but then there was one of the shluchim over there in yeshiva, one of the Bachur shluchim, so he had-

28:08 Speaker 2 There were American bachur shluchim in Chabad?

28:10 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. Including my older brother who was there that year at the time.

28:13 Speaker 2 With you?

28:14 Speaker 1 Yes.

28:15 Speaker 2 Oh, nice.

28:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. They, they had just arrived. I, uh, the other, I believe that they arrived in like the seventh of the year before, like Taf Shin Gimel. And in other words, I think that was the, that was the first American shluchim in Chabad.

28:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

28:26 Speaker 1 And I think ever since then, there's still American shluchim in Chabad. So one of the shluchim over there, whose name is Yosef Chaim Slavin, today he's, uh, Venezuelans? Makes sense. Somewhere South America, definitely.

28:38 Speaker 2 There, there was a Slavin in Venezuela at the time. I don't know.

28:42 Speaker 1 Anyways, Yosef Chaim, the, the son of the, the oldest son of the, the Belzer.

28:45 Speaker 2 Okay.

28:46 Speaker 1 So he was into Tanya at the time, and he had typed, typed up, typed up the, the Reb Yael's from someone took the tapes and typed it up like, uh-

28:54 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Transcripts.

28:56 Speaker 1 Transcripts, yeah. And I remember he lent me his, uh, that, those transcripts. I used those.

29:02 Speaker 2 Tape record-- Tapes were so hard to come by? Why couldn't you just have a tape?

29:06 Speaker 1 Yes. What do you mean? It's, uh, every- everybody had fifty tapes, sixty tapes, and I just... It wasn't, uh-

29:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

29:12 Speaker 1 ... it wasn't, uh... So, so at, at whatever point, you know, you said earlier about the learning. So, yeah, so that was, I guess part of my learning Tanya was also even part of my rebellious streak. I was, "I wanna learn, but, uh, I'm, I'm gonna do my, uh-"

29:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

29:27 Speaker 1 "I'm gonna do my thing."

29:28 Speaker 2 I mean, that, that, that's such a, you know... It, it... For the cynic in me, I, I love, I love the idea that learning Tanya in Tichat Hamivham is a rebellious thing 'cause it's not only 'cause it's true. It's true. It's a, you know, it's like one of those things that e- either it's not taught at all or it's taught by rote, and if you want to take it seriously, it's like, "Oh, yeah, I've got more important things to get to over here. Come on."

29:52 Speaker 1 I remember like a, a, a year or two ago, I'm sitting in shul Shabbos morning before davening.

29:57 Speaker 2 I love Tanya, by the way.

29:58 Speaker 1 What?

29:58 Speaker 2 We'll get to it.

29:58 Speaker 1 Okay.

29:58 Speaker 2 I love Tanya. I'm on your side.

30:00 Speaker 1 Okay. And I'm, I'm learning, and I was learning, uh, Siman in the Garis HaKodesh. And I-

30:06 Speaker 2 So, so you really love Tanya if you're learning that.

30:08 Speaker 1 By the way, Garis HaKodesh is, is my second favorite part of Tanya, second book of the MRM. But... And someone comes over and looks and is like, "Like, why are you learning that?" Like, if I was learning Samach Vov, there wouldn't be an issue. "Why are you learning Garis HaKodesh? The Raizaul Babitcher, you know, we say it, say it through Chitas."

30:24 Speaker 2 It wasn't the ti- it wasn't the time of year that, that it made sense for Chitas.

30:27 Speaker 1 No, no, no. It was like, "Well, like, why would you be doing that?" It's like, um, you know, it's Chitas actually, and maybe it's an important part of Chitas and-

30:33 Speaker 2 Right

30:33 Speaker 1 ... which is interesting, um-

30:35 Speaker 2 Right.

30:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:37 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Interesting.

30:39 Speaker 1 But I do wanna say that I believe that things have changed in that regard and are changing as we speak. Now, I just mentioned that the Hamadi's sefarim come out on a regular basis on Tanya, and there's a reason for that because that follows the, it follows the demand of the consumers, and Tanya's having a renaissance in terms of the demand and the popularity of Tanya. And I teach in, I teach, uh, seminary, I teach Tanya in seminary over here in Crown Heights.

31:09 Speaker 2 Okay.

31:10 Speaker 1 And I could tell you that I'm teaching it for fifteen years, somewhere around there, maybe, maybe a little more. The girls coming into seminary today, their understanding and knowledge of Tanya is so much more advanced than the girls who came into my class fifteen years ago. So you could see there's something... And there is a, um-

31:28 Speaker 2 How do you... What... H-how do you explain that? Well, what's-

31:30 Speaker 1 Because in the schools, it's taken more seriously. The teachers. In other words, the, the... People look at Tanya in a different way than they used to look at Tanya. When I was, when I... So, again, when I was, like thirty years ago, Tanya was, you know, Chsi- serious Chsidus was, uh, you know, like I said, Ein Beis, Anachnu, or whatever it may be, the Mamarim from the Friediker Rebbe. And people didn't learn Tanya. It wasn't a thing. And today, people learn Tanya. I, and I'll give you another example. So my... I have a son, my oldest son is in, um, he's now... He was

31:57 Speaker 2 Right.

32:18 Speaker 1 It didn't exist. And there's a... For some reason, there's this, this awareness has, which is incredible, is that about the value of Tanya.

32:28 Speaker 2 Right.

32:28 Speaker 1 And so back in my day, to a Bachur learning Tanya at the age of twenty was weird. Today, I don't believe that's the case anymore.

32:36 Speaker 2 Hmm.

32:36 Speaker 1 Tanya Bachur... A Bachur Hashem Tanya is much more, um-

32:40 Speaker 2 Uh-

32:40 Speaker 1 ... funny to say this, mainstream.

32:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

32:42 Speaker 1 Than-

32:42 Speaker 2 I, I wonder if that has to do with the fact that there was such a, um, like from the outside, the Bachur, the Chsidushe got really involved in Tanya. I'm wondering if that maybe-

32:50 Speaker 1 It's possible

32:51 Speaker 2 ... came like full circle.

32:52 Speaker 1 It's possible.

32:53 Speaker 2 You know, because Heichal Menachem or Chsidus Beres was obviously, as, you know, has always been somewhat focused on that crowd. And then, but once they put out those Sefarim, you know, maybe people started paying attention. I don't know. Just a-

33:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, it is, it's very possible.

33:07 Speaker 2 What would you say is, what would you say is the value of Tanya? Why, why is Tanya so... I, I know it's, like such a klutz kasha but like what, what would you say wi-without resorting to... I mean, if you want, you can resort to it, but like without... Everybody knows it's Teshuv Chsav, right? But, but explain that a little bit. What, what, what, what makes it so valuable? Is it just like a gedole chazak that makes it valuable or?

33:30 Speaker 1 So in terms of the Teshuv Chsav, that means that pretty much everything in Chsidus is sourced in Tanya. If you don't really know Tanya, then you're missing the foundation of everything. That's on a very, very simple level. Um, what I find fascinating, by the way, if I can just on, on the side. So Tanya is the Teshuv Chsav of Chsidus which means, by definition, that everything in Chsidus finds its source in Tanya. So you would think that Tanya would be structured somewhat like a, like an encyclopedia, right? Okay. So here's the-

34:07 Speaker 2 Right

34:07 Speaker 1 ... here's, uh, here, here, here's some keilim and here's some simanim, here's, uh, the sfiras, and here's, uh-

34:13 Speaker 2 Right

34:13 Speaker 1 ... but that's not the case at all. In fact, Tanya, as you know-

34:16 Speaker 2 And the, and there are kabbalahs for him like that, like the Paardes and so on.

34:20 Speaker 1 Yes. I'm, I'm saying yes and pretending as if I know what you're talking about, but I'll agree with you, yes.

34:24 Speaker 2 Y-yeah.

34:25 Speaker 1 I never looked into Paardes. I'm sorry.

34:28 Speaker 2 I was looking through the chapters. I don't wanna come across some kind of, uh, some kind of a kaval, but, uh, anyway.

34:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:34 Speaker 2 There's sha'ar, so keilim, sha'ar this, sha'ar that.

34:36 Speaker 1 If Alter Rebbe is making, you know-

34:38 Speaker 2 Right

34:38 Speaker 1 ... this new Chsidus philosophy, right?

34:39 Speaker 2 Right.

34:40 Speaker 1 Chsidus Chabad, and he wants to put Yevais on it, which it would sound like, you know, that you'd have, uh-

34:44 Speaker 2 Right. Machasid it.

34:45 Speaker 1 But instead, Tanya is structured as answers for people who have issues in Aveiras Hashem.

34:51 Speaker 2 Right.

34:52 Speaker 1 So how do you reconcile those two things?

34:56 Speaker 2 Okay.

34:59 Speaker 1 And it seems to me that the awesome message over here is, is that whatever you learn in Chsidus, it's always about Aveiras Hashem. It's always about Aveda.

35:09 Speaker 2 Right.

35:10 Speaker 1 And therefore, everything is in Tanya because you know what? Ach wouldn't exist if it wasn't Negiah in Aveiras Hashem. And if it's in Aveiras Hashem, it's in Tanya as part of Aveiras Hashem.

35:19 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, can't you say the same thing about Chumash, for example? Like, you know, you have Shas, which is aga- similar to that where there's different sugias and different, you know, intellectual ideas. But ultimately, Sh-Shas and Teshuvah Pez here to explain Teshuv Chsav, which starts off with all Sefer of stories, right?

35:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:41 Speaker 2 And you got the same question, like, like, "Why wouldn't, why wouldn't they just do like the-

35:45 Speaker 1 Well, that's what the first Rashi asks.

35:46 Speaker 2 Yeah. But why wouldn't they just give my Shabbet a good gezetz to Gemara here?

35:51 Speaker 1 Right.

35:52 Speaker 2 You know, and like Machasid there of all the different chakiras and once and for all, you know, uh, put it, put it on the table and yeah. Yeah.

36:00 Speaker 1 And one more thing on this topic.

36:02 Speaker 2 Sure.

36:02 Speaker 1 What is the most revolutionary idea in Tanya? Most revolutionary idea of Chsidus Chabad.

36:10 Speaker 2 What's the most revolutionary? I'm not gonna guess it. I mean-

36:14 Speaker 1 Di yivtachtaina.

36:14 Speaker 2 Okay. Actually, I was gonna say that.

36:16 Speaker 1 Okay. Um-

36:18 Speaker 2 What do you mean by most revolutionary? That, that nobody else thought about it? That, that-

36:22 Speaker 1 It, it, it, it really takes everything and flips everything on its head. The whole-

36:25 Speaker 2 Right

36:25 Speaker 1 ... ep- ep- the perception of everything a Yid described becomes changed because Di yivtachtaina. But I'm not gonna explain that-

36:30 Speaker 2 Right

36:30 Speaker 1 ... but it's, it's radical.

36:31 Speaker 2 I agree with that, yeah.

36:32 Speaker 1 And what separates Chabad from everyone else is Di yivtachtaina. Now-

36:36 Speaker 2 No, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a seismic shift.

36:39 Speaker 1 Correct.

36:40 Speaker 2 Seismic. It's a seismic shift-

36:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

36:41 Speaker 2 ... because it also throws the whole idea of Ruchnius on, on its head.

36:45 Speaker 1 And I use the word revolutionary carefully. Revolutionary, in other words, counter to everything that was thought beforehand.

36:50 Speaker 2 Right.

36:50 Speaker 1 The, the way I like to say it is that Di yivtachtainum, what it does is it takes the words higher and greater and makes them mutually exclusive.

37:02 Speaker 2 Hmm. Right. Higher is not greater.

37:05 Speaker 1 And people always make the, the confusion. "Oh, so this is higher." I'm like, "No."

37:08 Speaker 2 Higher is not greater.

37:09 Speaker 1 By definition, if it's higher, it's not greater. Yes.

37:11 Speaker 2 Right.

37:11 Speaker 1 Di yivtachtaina. But-

37:13 Speaker 2 My point is that this is a huge idea. Right. How does it-- How, so how is it introduced in Tanya? It's a huge philosophical idea, what's in it. Right. But if you look into the Tanya in the beginning of Pereik Manhei. Right. So the Rebbe says there's a problem. The Benini is wondering, "Why am I struggling?" Right? And, and the Alter Rebbe says, "And therefore, Yeah, first, you know, in, in some way, in some way that what you're saying comes intuitively to me in the sense or makes sense to me intuitively, not that I thought of it myself, but it makes sense to me intuitively because, you know, I, I, I, I tell stories for a living, and I, I, I see the power of s- I mean, and I'm not the first one to, to, to talk about this, uh, you know, the, the philosophers spoke about this, but the power of a story to capture the deepest wisdom in the most concise way possible. Right? You'll have... You'll see very often you'll have a great writer write a, write a, a sh- a story, and then they'll spend hundreds of years ex- taking out the wisdom of that story, which very often he didn't even think of himself. But the story that he wrote captured such wisdom that there's so much in there. And, you know, it seems like Torah has a similar thing where, where there's, there's, there's tremendous depth in stories. I'm forgetting now, but I, I think Chassidus also speaks

39:47 Speaker 2 about the, the, the, the, the, the Oymek in a sipur, in a, in a, in a story, right? Uh, I know there's obviously the idea of mashal, but there's also the idea of story and, um, that's ri- But what you're saying makes sense intuitively in that, in that the, the really the richest... Why is story so, why is story so deep? Because story speaks to the essence of who we are as human beings, right? It's not anymore the disembodied intellect of, you know, two plus two equals four. It's the richest, deepest wisdom of being a human being. That's what stories are, right? And all the wisdom f-flows through that and comes out of that. And that's what you're talking about over here, that, that Chassidus is talking to the deepest, uh, essence of who a person is, which is Avodas Hashem. It's not his understanding of a Tzaddis or it's his understanding of earn safe even, right? 'Cause who you are as a human be- your understanding, your askalis are only your mind, right? It's your mind understanding Godliness, which is important, but, but the, the richest, deepest part of who you are is all of it together, right? The, the mind, the heart, the guf, the neshama, all of it. That's, that's the essence, right? It all comes down to Avodas Hashem bottom line. Right. That's essence. That... So it makes sense that the, the deepest part would be the story of Avodas Hashem, and everything comes out of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's very

41:14 Speaker 2 interesting. So going back to your... So you're saying, "What's..." You asked me what's unique about Tanya or what's the appeal, w-wha- where? Is that the exact question? Yes. So yeah, it's very A question that I sometimes when I come into a class and I'm teaching Tanya and about to introduce Tanya, so a question that I will, that I'll ask sometimes is, we know the Alter Rebbe wrote a Sefer Shaar HaKinyan. Right. And then he wrote a Sefer Shaar HaBinah. I, I'm gonna say then, I don't know. I don't know what the order was. Why didn't Alter Rebbe write a Sefer Shaar HaRashah? So usually the answer I'll get is, "What do you mean?" 'Cause we don't, we don't aspire to be a Rashah. Right. Or some other people will tell me, "Well, I don't need Alter Rebbe to teach me not to be a Rashah, you know?" Right. "I'm doing a fine job all by myself. I don't need to read in a book how to do it." Fair. And it's obviously a silly question, but there's something, there's something deep over here, which is that although Tanya talks about-

43:17 Speaker 1 Talks about three people, and talks about three categories. There's a tzadik, and there's the beinoni, and the rasha. But there aren't three types of people. There's only two types of people. There's the non-struggler, also known as a tzadik.

43:30 Speaker 2 Right.

43:30 Speaker 1 And then there's the struggler. So the Alter Rebbe therefore wrote two sefarim. One sefer was the Sefer Sha'ar HaTsaddikim. So-

43:37 Speaker 2 Be-ra-be-raatz Tzaddikim

43:38 Speaker 1 ... if you're a tzadik, right? By the way, one of the misconceptions that people have is that people are born a tzadik. No one, you know, no one's born a tzadik.

43:44 Speaker 2 They're born with capacity to be.

43:45 Speaker 1 Born with capacity to be a tzadik, correct. So once you-- once a person reaches that level of tzadik, so then obviously they have their issues and their questions in aveiras hashem.

43:57 Speaker 2 Right.

43:58 Speaker 1 And if I had to guess what, what, what the issue of a tzadik would be, I would guess is that he says, "Okay, and now what?"

44:03 Speaker 2 Right.

44:04 Speaker 1 Okay. Like imagine playing a video game, and every single time there was no, I say, no competition. Like you just, you know, scored the maximum every single time. How many times would you play that game?

44:13 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

44:15 Speaker 1 'Cause you mastered it.

44:16 Speaker 2 No, and Chassidus talks about it. Also, uh, Moshiach also

44:19 Speaker 1 Right. There's a sicha from the Rebbe also about this. The point is, if you have... So, so the Alter Rebbe already say- wrote the Sefer Sha'ar HaTsaddikim addressing the issues of the non-struggler. By the way, my guess is maybe that's why the Alter Rebbe addresses this particular... But I don't know. I'm not a perfect person, so I don't know what the struggles of a perfect person are. Maybe one day, im yirtzeh Hashem. And then the Alter Rebbe says-

44:40 Speaker 2 Really, you wanna be a tzadik?

44:43 Speaker 1 The first words of Tanya is, "Be a tzadik."

44:45 Speaker 2 Right. Fair.

44:48 Speaker 1 We're su- we're supposed to have that aspiration. That's a very-

44:50 Speaker 2 It's a struggle to be a tzadik.

44:52 Speaker 1 No, no. We're supposed to wanna be a tzadik. You're supposed to try to make

44:56 Speaker 2 Right

44:56 Speaker 1 ... talk about it.

44:57 Speaker 2 But do you wanna be on the side trying to make

45:05 Speaker 1 Every Yid should wanna be a tzadik.

45:07 Speaker 2 Uh, you s- you mean, is it-- So it means literally?

45:10 Speaker 1 A hundred percent. And by the way, this goes into the whole higher versus greater issue.

45:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:16 Speaker 1 Um, well, I thought... I'm not gonna whatever.

45:18 Speaker 2 We'll go to it later. Okay.

45:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. If y- if you don't wanna be a tzadik-

45:22 Speaker 2 By the way, uh, this podcast believes that shorter is not better, so, so, so.

45:26 Speaker 1 Okay.

45:28 Speaker 2 Go for it.

45:28 Speaker 1 If someone doesn't wanna be a tzadik, they don't get it. Then they hear words and they, they're, they're not... I-if you know that being a tzadik means serving the Aibishter with ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem, ahavas mitzvot, of course, that's what we're looking for. So I wanna have ahavas, but an imperfect ahavas Hashem. I wanna... Like, what's, what's that? Of course we wanna be a tzadik. And, and we're supposed to strive to try to be a tzadik, but that's... Leave that a-aside for a second. Now, the Alter Rebbe says there's a large, uh, segment of my chassidim, a large demographic. They're, they're not perfect people. They're strugglers.

45:55 Speaker 2 Right.

45:55 Speaker 1 And these are the people who come to me in yichidus, and they complain to me in aveiras Hashem. What are they telling me? They're telling me there's this pasuk in Devarim that says,

46:02 Speaker 2 Before Yisroel about to pass away, he turns to Yidden and says, "Guys, I gave you the Torah, I gave you the mitzvahs. I want you to know you could do it. You could do it."

46:14 Speaker 1 Right. And comes this person and cries out the heart to the Alter Rebbe and says, "But the Moshiach Ben Yosef didn't know me. He doesn't know what kind of yetser Hara I have. Moshiach Ben Yosef doesn't know about my childhood traumas. Moshiach Ben Yosef doesn't know about my ADHD. Moshiach Ben Yosef doesn't know..." And therefore, maybe that person, they can do it. The other person, maybe in another generation, maybe I could do it, all of it, some of the time, some of it all the time, but all of it, it's not true. It's Alter Rebbe. And I-I... It's a struggle. Alter Rebbe says, "I'm writing a sefer for you. And this sefer for you is how to navigate your struggles."

46:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:46 Speaker 1 For every struggle. Now, Sefer Sha'al Sha'al Beiniyim is not Beiniyim as opposed to Rishonim. It's Beiniyim as opposed to Tzadikim.

46:53 Speaker 2 Right.

46:54 Speaker 1 In other words, when it says Sha'al Beiniyim, it doesn't mean if I'm a Rasha, it's not for me. It doesn't even mean that I have to aspire to be a Beini. Although that is true, it's much deeper than that. It's written for the people who struggle.

47:04 Speaker 2 Right.

47:04 Speaker 1 The people with a yetser Hara.

47:05 Speaker 2 Right.

47:06 Speaker 1 Now, you wanna apply globally and become a Beini? God bless you.

47:10 Speaker 2 Right.

47:10 Speaker 1 But let's say I have a struggle in a cer-certain area. I'm struggling in my, in my aveiras atfilo. I'm struggling in my aveiras yeshon. I'm struggling in my kibbud av va'em. I'm struggling in my, um... Tanya has the keys, the tools, and the strategies how to deal with it. So Tanya is about real life.

47:24 Speaker 2 Right.

47:25 Speaker 1 So you, you wanna know what Tanya is? Tanya is Pasha talking to me and to you, appreciating, understanding who we are, and saying, "Here's how you do it."

47:36 Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, in a way, I, I don't... I didn't set up the question this way, but looking back now in reverse, after you explain what makes Tanya unique, it kind of also explains, at least to me, a, a, a possi-a possible explanation why yeshivas have kind of drifted away, or at least in the past, drift away from Tanya. Because in a way, Tanya throws the entire, like, chassidus curriculum on its head, like you're just describing, right? I-in yeshiva, you ask, like, what makes-- what's a

48:22 Speaker 1 Who lives in his head.

48:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, but knows, knows in

48:24 Speaker 1 You know? And I'm, I'm not making fun. I, I, I loved learning those things in yeshiva, but, uh... And I know, and, uh, knew Bachar that were, that were very, very bakant and it's beautiful, right? To, you know, to... A is a, is a gorgeous thing, right? And, and, and an inyan, and to really know to explain an inyan and, and the halukim that chassidus brings is beautiful. But the, the yeshiva is structured in that kind of intellectual f- intellectual framework. Or even if it's not in it's like there's a and the, the mashpia is teaching you the different diyukim that the Rebbe had and the different It's all very intellectualized. And you're... And you come with Tanya, and, and you're saying not Tanya the way... Even the way the, the little bit of Tanya that I did see taught in yeshiva was always very intellectualized, where, you know, the first part of Tanya is Tanya. A Tanya mashpia, and the mashpia, and there's mashpia. And, like, it becomes this whole, like, laundry list of vertlach and, and ideas as opposed to a story, a narrative, uh, uh, uh, something that hits home on a very human level. And I could see the resistance. I'm not saying they do it on purpose, but I could see, like, how that just doesn't fit in to the Sefer Cha... You know what I mean? Like, I, I think that might be what's going on here. And I think it might be changing.

49:41 Speaker 2 Fair, fair.

49:41 Speaker 1 I think that might be... Again, I, I'm, I'm not in the, in, in the boys' chinuch systems. I don't know. But I have a feeling that people are beginning to get that Tanya is different and appreciate Tanya for this. But what you're saying-

49:52 Speaker 2 But like-

49:52 Speaker 1 But what you're saying is a hundred percent correct. I remember when I was doing moshiach sefar-- So it was about the diyukim. It was about a diyukim here, a diyukim here.

49:58 Speaker 2 Yes.

49:58 Speaker 1 And like-

49:59 Speaker 2 It's miserable.

49:59 Speaker 1 Well, well, well-

50:00 Speaker 2 It's, it's miserable

50:01 Speaker 1 ... it, it, it wasn't miserable. You know, I, I, I, I appreciate but that, that Tanya is not about diyukim. By the way, once you understand the perek, the diyukim are the, are the icing on top of the cake.

50:13 Speaker 2 Right.

50:14 Speaker 1 But when the diyukim become the cake-

50:16 Speaker 2 Right

50:16 Speaker 1 ... you're missing out on the whole, the whole... And Tanya is about, it's, it's about a flow, it's about a structure.

50:20 Speaker 2 Right. That's what I mean.

50:21 Speaker 1 And so-

50:22 Speaker 2 That's what I mean

50:22 Speaker 1 ... but I, my biggest problem was something else in, in terms of the approach to Tanya, and the reason why me-- I, I believe that Tanya has never really took off un- until today, and hopefully it's changing.

50:36 Speaker 2 Do you think it never took off? Like it, it-

50:38 Speaker 1 No, I'm not, I'm not talking historically 150 years ago. I'm talking about a, I'm talking about a-

50:41 Speaker 2 In your lifetime?

50:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. Is that I think that there... You talk about mythology, let me tell you what about mythology. There's a mythology out there, and I think you know exactly what I'm talking about. You learn Tanya.

50:54 Speaker 2 Yeah.

50:55 Speaker 1 And what's Tanya about? Teaching you how to be a Baalebus, the official Baalebus.

50:59 Speaker 2 Right.

50:59 Speaker 1 So here, here is the Daruch Aruch. Here is the Daruch Chabad. Here's how you become a Baalebus. Oh, and by the way, wink, wink, you can't become a Baalebus because only Rav Nissan Manov was a Baalebus, maybe sometimes. So therefore, even though you're learning and even though Alter Rebbe tells you very clearly that-

51:15 Speaker 2 Right

51:15 Speaker 1 ... the whole Tanya is for that-

51:16 Speaker 2 Right

51:16 Speaker 1 ... and why do you... But, but real- and no, no, no Mashpia will tell this to you-

51:20 Speaker 2 Right

51:20 Speaker 1 ... explicitly.

51:21 Speaker 2 Right.

51:21 Speaker 1 But the wink, wink is, a Baalebus is impossible.

51:26 Speaker 2 Besides the fact that Rav Nissan was a Nifret, so the whole thing is

51:29 Speaker 1 Okay, let's not go there. But do, do you get what's going on over here? The Alter Rebbe writes us safer for me and for you-

51:35 Speaker 2 Yes, yes

51:35 Speaker 1 ... and says, "Here, I want you to know, „Ki Kari Velech,“ you could become a Baalebus, you can achieve self-mastery." And yet what's in our blood, 'cause we've imbibed this somehow subliminally, 'cause no one says this, but it's some... a message we all got. You got this message?

51:51 Speaker 2 Did I get it from Tanya?

51:52 Speaker 1 No. From the... In other words, when you... as a bachur you grow up-

51:55 Speaker 2 Oh, th-th-th-this, this, this, this, this, uh, this subliminal message.

51:58 Speaker 1 Yes. That, that-

51:59 Speaker 2 Oh, of course

52:00 Speaker 1 ... that book that... You could try, but good luck.

52:01 Speaker 2 Of course, of course.

52:02 Speaker 1 Right?

52:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, of course.

52:03 Speaker 1 So you're learning Tanya, that's one message, and at the same time, the other message you're getting is-

52:08 Speaker 2 It's ultimate cynicism. It's very cynical. It's very cynical. It's very cynical

52:12 Speaker 1 ... and where does that come from? So the only thing I could think of is, is that by us, we have a very Chassidim, we have a very proud tradition of aspiring towards nothingness. Because if someone becomes something, then that's a stira to our kavod that we have to have for the Rebbe. And only the Rebbe is something, everyone else has to be nothing. And therefore, if I'm gonna tell you you could actually become a Baalebus, that means you could be something, that's a problem. So I'm not-

52:39 Speaker 2 Then you're, then you're a Nifret. But-

52:40 Speaker 1 You should know you're nothing. You're a Rasha.

52:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

52:42 Speaker 1 You're always gonna be a Rasha. But you could be... you could do shlichus. So-

52:46 Speaker 2 This is brand new. You know this is brand new in Lubavitch.

52:48 Speaker 1 That what?

52:48 Speaker 2 That like Chassidim are supposed to be nothing. Like-

52:50 Speaker 1 Brand new as a... No.

52:52 Speaker 2 Dirshvi. It's just not-

52:53 Speaker 1 Oh, so-

52:54 Speaker 2 This is not-

52:54 Speaker 1 You say brand new, you have to, uh-

52:56 Speaker 2 I'm saying it's brand new, dir-

52:56 Speaker 1 I'm not, I'm not a historian. I don't know.

52:58 Speaker 2 But, but, but you, you read it, read the and like, a-and the, the, the older Chassidim, they, they were not busy their whole life-

53:05 Speaker 1 And I'm not-

53:05 Speaker 2 ... trying to be nothing. That, that-

53:07 Speaker 1 I'm not, uh-

53:07 Speaker 2 That's not what's going on

53:08 Speaker 1 ... yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do a, a, you know, a postmortem-

53:10 Speaker 2 Dirshvi

53:10 Speaker 1 ... pa- you know, figure out the pathology, how and where it came from. The matzias is the, the mo- the point, the message, the biggest message about Tanya we need to get out to people is that it's real.

53:19 Speaker 2 Right.

53:19 Speaker 1 That Tanya means what it says and says what it means. And therefore, the Daruch Aruch and Daruch Ketzar are actual. They're pa-- they could... When you learn about Avodah Yira in Tanya, it's not talking, it's not talking to the „Bazman Zezman Ubeves Manasme.“ It's talking to you. That means the Alter Rebbe says you can have it. Um-

53:34 Speaker 2 But the reason I bring up the previous generations is not to harp on some Dirshvi kind of postmortem. I think it's connected.

53:41 Speaker 1 There is no postmortem on Dirshvi.

53:43 Speaker 2 I'm saying of up to this point.

53:45 Speaker 1 Okay.

53:46 Speaker 2 Up to this point. I am not trying to corner you or, or get you in trouble. Um, but I'm not just trying to like say Dirshvi versus others. What I'm trying to say is, or what I'm thinking, is that one of the reasons that we don't take Tanya seriously for ourselves is because we look at ourselves compared to those Chassidim. Benyomin Keletzker would stand and daven for three hours and had his foot up in the air, and they mo- on a wagon, and then they moved the wagon, and he was so, he was so, he was so deep in his suspended that he kept his foot up in the air. He didn't even realize. Like these kind of stories, and we're like, "We're not shayach to that. I have ADD. I can't even think for two minutes straight. I have a smartphone. It's buzzing in my pants. I, I can't..." So, so, so we kinda throw the whole baby out with the bathwater because we, we don't see ourselves in, in those mythologies, in those mo- in those motifs. We don't see ourselves in that. So then we just basically kind of... We, we, we reverse engineer it to say, "Okay, so Tanya basic-

54:45 Speaker 1 When we say we don't see ourselves in those mythologies, you have to be careful. What is the mythology? That they were Chassidim on that madrega? That's a mythology? I don't accept that.

54:52 Speaker 2 No, no. Well, the mythology is that a Chassid has to look like that.

54:55 Speaker 1 Ah.

54:55 Speaker 2 Mythology doesn't mean-

54:56 Speaker 1 Okay, okay, okay

54:57 Speaker 2 ... well, in general, I... But, uh, let me clarify. By mythology, or maybe I'm, maybe I just don't understand what the word means. I, I, I, I don't mean that those things are false, it never happened. Mythology is when a truth kind of, kind of... like when it grows, when it, when it grows m- meaning and, and, and, and significance in ways that, that are not inherent to the thing itself. So Benyomin Keletzker davening like that, um, I believe-

55:22 Speaker 1 Can you pass me the Tanya, please?

55:23 Speaker 2 Sure.

55:24 Speaker 1 Right there. No, no. It's right there.

55:26 Speaker 2 I believe Benyomin Keletzker did that, but the mythology is that you're supposed to look like that, or that's the only way that you can look.

55:32 Speaker 1 I would like to read you a little passage from Tanya over here. „Kuntres HaChinnuch.“

55:39 Speaker 2 Now you're mavish in the deep waters. You, you better, you better have, you better have a, uh, deep water license over here.

55:47 Speaker 1 No, that's the be-

55:48 Speaker 2 Kuntres, Kuntres-

55:48 Speaker 1 That's, that's for the beginning Kuntres HaChinnuch, not the, the last, the last few simanim are not the way. So Alter Rebbe says over here, this is, this is the, the, the Chitas Veyichas Kislev.

55:57 Speaker 2 Right.

55:57 Speaker 1 Alter Rebbe says, "." You have to rebuke someone even 100 times. And therefore- Alter Rebbe says, "I'm gonna just do it straight in English. I can't..." Sorry, that's my English. And I can't be quiet, I'm gonna scream again, even if it's a weak, a weak cry because I'm pashta, I have no koach anymore. Alter Rebbe says, "I beg of you." Please, have rachmanus on your neshamah. And please be very, very careful when it comes to Torah and when it comes to davening be kavannah. And listen to these words. And Alter Rebbe, what do I mean by that? I want davening... This, uh, this is addressed to the kehillahs, not to individuals.

56:40 Speaker 2 Right.

56:40 Speaker 1 That everyone should start together word for word. I don't want one person holding over here and davening, another person holding there but davening. this person sitting and stam dreaming. another person stam is hacking a chanich. Now let me ask you, does that describe our shuls today? But, uh, no, this is a letter that Alter Rebbe is writing to the people in his generation.

57:04 Speaker 2 Right.

57:05 Speaker 1 But so what I'm saying is to, to, to think, yes, there was Reb Yehuda Leib Klutzker, 100%.

57:09 Speaker 2 Right.

57:10 Speaker 1 But the, the Al- the Alter Rebbe's talking... Tanya is addressed to people like us. Alter Rebbe knows what's going on. Alter Rebbe's literally describing-

57:16 Speaker 2 Right

57:17 Speaker 1 ... a shul in Crown Heights, a Chabad shul in Crown Heights today. Like-

57:19 Speaker 2 Right. Everybody's doing their own thing and-

57:25 Speaker 1 This is if you wanted to look, look, you know, you know, you know, Crown Heights shul in dictionary, unfortunately, that's probably a definition you're gonna get. The sermon beforehand, what's going on over there? Alter Rebbe writes, uh, another letter to another community. There was a chazan, and he was taking too long davening 'cause possibly he was davening word for word.

57:40 Speaker 2 Right.

57:40 Speaker 1 So what did they do? They threw him out from the job.

57:42 Speaker 2 Right.

57:42 Speaker 1 So Alter Rebbe's screaming, "What are you guys doing?"

57:44 Speaker 2 Right.

57:44 Speaker 1 The, uh, my point I'm trying to bring out is-

57:47 Speaker 2 There were people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

57:48 Speaker 1 ... people like us.

57:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

57:49 Speaker 1 Schlubbs like us. And the Tanya is addressed to people. And so when Alter Rebbe says, that you can do it, he's not talking-

57:56 Speaker 2 To Yehuda Leib Klutzker

57:57 Speaker 1 ... to Yehuda Leib Klutzker, who probably was a tzaddik, by the way.

57:59 Speaker 2 Right.

57:59 Speaker 1 And he's talking to us, and he means it, that we can do it.

58:02 Speaker 2 Right.

58:03 Speaker 1 That's the biggest thing, the hurdle we need to get. And once we get that, then suddenly Tanya becomes relevant. 'Cause how relevant can a sefer be if the subconscious message that everyone gets about it is-

58:14 Speaker 2 Right

58:14 Speaker 1 ... it doesn't, it's the... Alter Rebbe doesn't really mean it.

58:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. I... Just a side note, I have... I'll show you... I'll share with you a vort that I think you'll enjoy. Uh, I was once researching a little bit, uh, on the siddur. My father's, uh, doing... working on a project about the siddur. And the, the question was, why is, why is on Shabbos Krias Hatorah by Shacharis, Krias Hatorah is after, after Shemoneh Esrei, and by Mincha it's before Shemoneh Esrei? So one of the reasons given there is that a few hundred years ago in, in the c- in, in the kehillahs, the people were very tired Shabbos morning, so they wouldn't, they wouldn't be in shul in time for Krias Hatorah if it was before Shemoneh Esrei, so they made it after. By Mincha it's already noch a chalant. And I remember reading that and I'm like, "Uh, uh, okay, I don't know if that's an answer. I don't know how many kehillahs were like that." But I remember reading that and I'm like, "Wait a second, this is in a sefer.

59:08 Speaker 2 It's in a sefer." It's not like, it's not like on Twitter making fun of s- it's in a sefer from hundreds of years ago. People are people, and our whole... And, uh, uh... There's one explanation that the whole reason we daven on Shabbos this way is 'cause people sleep in on Shabbos morning.

59:22 Speaker 1 I hear what you're saying. But there, but, but, but no, there's-

59:23 Speaker 2 And I'm, it's, it's agreeing with what you're saying.

59:25 Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah, but there are two ways to go about this. Meaning, one way is we can sit and we can talk about the and don't think they were so great, so amazing. What did you gain by that?

59:33 Speaker 2 Let's not-

59:33 Speaker 1 Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish

59:34 Speaker 2 ... okay.

59:35 Speaker 1 I'm saying something else. I'm not here to berate anyone. I'm trying to bring out that the author of the Tanya was talking to people like us, and therefore, when he says, he means me and he means you.

59:50 Speaker 2 I wasn't trying to-

59:50 Speaker 1 That's, uh-

59:51 Speaker 2 I understand.

59:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:51 Speaker 2 I wasn't trying to berate. I just thought it was a, I thought it was a, it's a cute kind of anecdote that shows that this concept that, like, then everybody was, was there, and today-

1:00:02 Speaker 1 And, and, and-

1:00:02 Speaker 2 ... we're, we're all down here. It's not true

1:00:04 Speaker 1 ... anyone who knows anything, go take a look in the Se- Sifrei Shabbos or Tehillahs from, from all the generations and see the Shabbos that, that are being addressed and-

1:00:11 Speaker 2 People are people

1:00:11 Speaker 1 ... that, that, that, uh, the myth that people were, uh, were inherently different will immediately, uh, you know, gets dispelled.

1:00:18 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I mean, okay, if you... O- when you start expanding this idea, you quickly get to Tanakh where where the Yidden were, were always doing all kinds of crazy things and, you know, so we clearly were always... We're, we're, you know, we're always a work in process.

1:00:31 Speaker 1 It's not to take away from the idea of, of Yudai LeTzaddekes.

1:00:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:34 Speaker 1 And that we are called which means that ultimately they did have higher neshamas, and that did express itself also in some sort of practical way. But at the, but at the same time, it... Okay, I think we've, uh-

1:00:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:46 Speaker 1 ... taken care of that, uh, that part.

1:00:47 Speaker 2 Right. So, no, no, but you're, you're making, you're making a valuable point here. What you're saying is, is that, uh, maybe I'm reading a little bit too much into it, but what you're saying is, is that there's a, there's this undercurrent that comes with the Tanya, at least the way I was taught when, you know, when you were in yeshiva and it... I can, I can tell you even though that I'm younger than you-

1:01:06 Speaker 1 This exists till today. That I know. In other words-

1:01:08 Speaker 2 Oh

1:01:08 Speaker 1 ... this, this idea, when you tell someone, "You can become a ˈben Yoni", they look at you like you fell off the moon, and you're like, "One second, did you learn Tanya?" "Yeah, I learned Tanya." So, uh, uh...

1:01:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And who's Alter Rebbe talking to? He's, he's certainly not talking to me. Right. I mean, really you can extend that, you can extend that to, to chassidus in general, I think. Um, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're... In a way it's kind of... You, it makes sense, right? You're... 'Cause let's say you l- you l- you learn Gemara in yeshiva, right? You have a good head for Gemara. You learn a good i- you learn a, a geschmacke sfard. That's it. Okay. You, you got it right. The Rosh Yeshiva farhered you, and you got it right, you got it right. Right? So if you're, if you're good at it, the learning of it doesn't demand so much of you necessarily. Right? So you can take it very seriously. And because in this world that you're living in, lear- Gemara is very serious. It's the most serious thing. You're good at it. You're, you're farhered on it. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you... People make sure that you know what you're doing and, and you take it seriously. It, it makes sense. But chassidus- In a way, it's like the more serious you take it, the harder it is to, to, to live up to it. 'Cause it doesn't-- it's not just to understand the Vart, it's also to live up to the Vart, right? And so almost what you're describing is like th-this kind of inevitable situation where the more you're taking it seriously, the more you have to kinda downplay your ability to,

1:02:30 Speaker 2 to live up to it. Like, 'cause to live up to it's almost impossible, right? To, to learn a, to learn a Mimer and, and the Mimer's telling you to, to, to be with Spain and not flawless a bury in it to have, have a, you know... Like every Mimer look at the terror essentially. Like Mammonoshof, if you're, if you're not taking it seriously, what are you doing? And if you're taking it seriously, so then also what are you doing? It's, it's, it's a problem. And, and I think maybe that also explains a little bit why the Yeshivas content towards intellectualization route of, of, of inteluc- intellectualizing Sidis as opposed to the Tanya route, which you're describing, which is it starts with the Avais Hashem. That everything comes back to that. Everything comes back to that if you, you know. A-and because Avais Hashem basically forces you to get real. Avais Hashem tells you that if you don't, if you don't live up to it, you're wasting your time.

1:03:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So then there's another issue.

1:03:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:03:27 Speaker 1 And we'll talk about could I be a Benini? And there's another question. Let's say I could become a Benini. Do I wanna become a Benini?

1:03:37 Speaker 2 Do I wanna become a Benini?

1:03:38 Speaker 1 How many people can honestly answer the question and say yes?

1:03:41 Speaker 2 No, I would tell you no.

1:03:42 Speaker 1 Okay. A lot of people would say yes, but then when you press them a little, and by the when I ask people that question, "Do you wanna be a Benini?" And they say, "Yeah." I'm like, "I don't believe you." And they're like, "What?" I'm like, "One second. Do you wanna be a Benini? Are you a Benini?" They'll say, "No." "Why not? If you want to, and after that, but clearly gives you the-"

1:04:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:03 Speaker 1 "... the strategies, so why aren't you?"

1:04:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:06 Speaker 1 I say imagine if I told you that, you know, here I am close to fifty years old, and I, all my life I've really had this aspiration I wanted to run a marathon.

1:04:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:13 Speaker 1 And you say, "Have you run a marathon?" I say, "No." What would you tell me?

1:04:16 Speaker 2 You're full of crap.

1:04:17 Speaker 1 Exactly. So what, what do you mean you wanna be a Benini? Why aren't you a Benini? And they're, "Uh, because I was, my It's A Hard is too big." Well, the whole point of Tanya is addressing people with a big It's A Hard and telling them not to be a Benini. So obviously, the first thing is we need to have that desire.

1:04:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:38 Speaker 1 But instead of jumping all the way to the top, which is a Benini... And by the way, if you want to become a Benini, you absolutely could. And Tanya gives you the path, and you have to know that you could. And by the way, you should know there are people who are Beninis today because of Tanya, not living in Cinnamon.

1:04:53 Speaker 2 In Crown Heights.

1:04:54 Speaker 1 In Crown Heights. A housewife who you don't know about, and another, and a person sitting, living in Caleb p- 'cause... And actually, there are people who I could, I look at and I say, "This per..." I mean, I don't know for sure. And any given person, they're a Benini.

1:05:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:05 Speaker 1 There's a person the way they're doing it, I figure, it's up contract. It doesn't happen.

1:05:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:09 Speaker 1 But we, we, we sh- we, we like we're very scared of saying that. Do you understand? That's the success story of Tanya. That's not... Why, why are you scared of saying that? That's the whole point. But I, I wanna take it and, you know, today the popular word in, in, in is, is scaling, like it's one of the corporate words, right? Everything has to be scaled. Familiar with that term?

1:05:26 Speaker 2 Uh, I've heard of it.

1:05:27 Speaker 1 Okay, scaling means if it's small, how, how, how it performing to get big or the opposite way around.

1:05:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:05:31 Speaker 1 Ultimately, a Benini is someone who wins a hundred percent of their battles.

1:05:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:36 Speaker 1 So what if I don't have a desire to win a hundred percent of my battles? But what if in my way this time, I have a desire to win ten percent of my battles? Meaning, like I said earlier, a certain area. How many people say, "Okay, let me go to Tanya and figure out how to win in that area." 'Cause there I do want. Maybe I don't want to be a Benini, but you know what? I really wanna know, I really wanna dive in properly. I really want to, uh-

1:05:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:05:58 Speaker 1 ... a certain area. Or, or that's what Tanya is. Tanya is there to help you with your struggles, but no one thinks of going to Tanya. Why not?

1:06:04 Speaker 2 'Cause it-

1:06:05 Speaker 1 'Cause Tanya doesn't work.

1:06:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:07 Speaker 1 How do we know Tanya doesn't work?

1:06:08 Speaker 2 'Cause I'm not a Benini.

1:06:09 Speaker 1 Because no, because Tanya promises me that I could be a Benini. I know that promise is a lie, so why should I think it can help me-

1:06:15 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:15 Speaker 1 ... in a smaller struggle? In other words, it messes with our head.

1:06:18 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

1:06:19 Speaker 1 So we're learning Tanya... Y-you get what I'm saying?

1:06:22 Speaker 2 Yes, I'm enjoying it.

1:06:23 Speaker 1 I-

1:06:24 Speaker 2 You can, you can elaborate.

1:06:25 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:06:25 Speaker 2 I'm not getting bored.

1:06:26 Speaker 1 I'll give you an example. So you have, you know, the very famous tracking in Tanya, Pirkei Avot. Everyone... These are the tracking which everyone learns.

1:06:31 Speaker 2 The depress- the depression ones.

1:06:32 Speaker 1 Sim-sim-san. Not depression. That's a bad translation. I know you would-

1:06:34 Speaker 2 No, no, no. The, the Nishatzfus.

1:06:37 Speaker 1 I-

1:06:37 Speaker 2 Atzfus is not depression.

1:06:38 Speaker 1 No.

1:06:39 Speaker 2 What's Atzfus?

1:06:40 Speaker 1 Negative emotions.

1:06:41 Speaker 2 Okay, fair. Okay. We-

1:06:42 Speaker 1 But we could talk about that. That's a whole-

1:06:43 Speaker 2 But I'm saying I, I don't mean a whole... Like that's how it's al-colloquially translated.

1:06:46 Speaker 1 I, I know. I know. I know. And that's a bad translation.

1:06:48 Speaker 2 It says it's a Shemto thing, no?

1:06:50 Speaker 1 Everything's a Shemto thing.

1:06:51 Speaker 2 No, you said you know me, that I would translate Atzfus.

1:06:54 Speaker 1 No. I, that's what I said?

1:06:55 Speaker 2 I thought you said. No, no problem.

1:06:57 Speaker 1 No, most people do it. Then they... Pe-people don't say depression today 'cause it has clinical connotations. People say sadness, but th-those aren't, uh-

1:07:02 Speaker 2 It's not sadness.

1:07:03 Speaker 1 Well, if-

1:07:04 Speaker 2 'Cause Atzfus and ears. So you're saying even Atzfus is-

1:07:06 Speaker 1 Leave the ears out of this.

1:07:07 Speaker 2 Atzfus is-

1:07:07 Speaker 1 Atzfus-

1:07:08 Speaker 2 ... is negative

1:07:08 Speaker 1 ... negative emotions, which is a variety. It's guilt, it's shame. It's, it, it's, uh-

1:07:12 Speaker 2 You're saying depression's too, too, too generalized and too-

1:07:15 Speaker 1 No. To contrary. To pr- to pr-- sadness is too specific and, and Atzfus is a whole, is a whole variety of negative emotions-

1:07:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:07:22 Speaker 1 ... that drag you down. And if you look in the tracking, you'll see that Alta Rebbe says, "How do I get rid of Atzfus?" Then he says, "There's this kind of Atzfus and this kind of... And this kind of Atzfus is m- is, is, basically, is worry and anxiety and, and pain." And the next type of Atzfus he talks about is guilt. The next one is shame and frustration. The next one is a feeling of inauthenticity. So you see that it's the whole package of, of negative emotions.

1:07:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:44 Speaker 1 But so every... These are tracking everyone knows. What's, what's the big idea there? The big idea is that if you struggle, that if you're battling in your Avais Hashem, and if you're by Atzfus, you have... You're bogged down by negative emotions. So Y-Yetzhahra is going to, uh, is going to be victorious.

1:08:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:02 Speaker 1 And it's like a blanket thing. Like I says, that Alta Rebbe says, "Blanket thing, you should know, you're not gonna win the war against Yetzhahra if you're having a bad emotional day, if you're-

1:08:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:08:10 Speaker 1 ... weighed down by negative emotions." Now, you might... If I may add in over here, so you're gonna say one second. Um, uh, f- yesterday I was in a bad emotional space, and I still, I didn't, uh, eat a cheeseburger. I still davened like, what, uh, once again. But you're misunderstanding. Those aren't struggles.

1:08:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:27 Speaker 1 You don't struggle with, about eating a cheeseburger. What are your ears... I once saw a great mushel from the Midrash Im Yachad, it was great. He says-

1:08:34 Speaker 2 Rabbi Dessler.

1:08:35 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. He says, you know, you have two countries that are battling-

1:08:38 Speaker 2 The amount of literature there that we're talking about on this podcast, it's gonna... So we're, we're getting to the limit, I'm just saying .

1:08:45 Speaker 1 So, um, so we could do more if you want, but, but, but-

1:08:48 Speaker 2 So it may, it may become homesick for, for lit- for lit in a minute, but, uh

1:08:53 Speaker 1 Rabbi says our literature. He starts with it.

1:08:54 Speaker 2 Say that. Ah, good.

1:08:56 Speaker 1 So he says that you have, uh, two countries battling each other, so there's the battlefield. And, you know, the battlefield, the whole point is moving a, a mile this way, uh, you know, uh, you know, half a mile this way. That the success of the battle, you don't judge by the city that's deep into the, in, in the territory of this country or that country.

1:09:13 Speaker 2 The capital, the capital city is usually not where you find the-

1:09:15 Speaker 1 They're not the battleground.

1:09:16 Speaker 2 Right .

1:09:17 Speaker 1 So the focus, the, the battleground.

1:09:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:19 Speaker 1 So in our life, we have a battleground. Everyone knows what their battleground is. For some people, saying it's, it's a lenokitas every single day, for some people, whatever it may be. And by the way, no two people's battleground is the same. Maybe for some people it is eating a cheeseburger, no judgments.

1:09:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:31 Speaker 1 Re- Re-

1:09:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:32 Speaker 1 We're not judging anyone.

1:09:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:34 Speaker 1 But the point is, you should know whatever area is your battle, your struggle, you will not be able to win that struggle-

1:09:40 Speaker 2 Without going there

1:09:40 Speaker 1 ... if you're not the simcha.

1:09:42 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:09:42 Speaker 1 If you, if, if you're suffering from negative emotions.

1:09:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:09:45 Speaker 1 So you say, "Yeah, yesterday I ate kosher even though I was negative emotions," that's not a battle.

1:09:48 Speaker 2 You were not... Right.

1:09:48 Speaker 1 What is your... But if your battle is kitas and your ba-- a-a-and you're, then in order to be able to win that battle-

1:09:54 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:54 Speaker 1 ... especially consistently, you need to be in a state of positive emotions.

1:09:57 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, you could, uh, you could even, you could even tie this a little bit more, but Proteus with like, you know, the psychology that they talk about today, where like, even like if someone, someone doesn't struggle with, let's say, eating unhealthy food during the day, but at night, as you get more tired, people will, will, will, will, will, will suddenly-

1:10:15 Speaker 1 Similar idea

1:10:15 Speaker 2 ... give, give in. And so even the s- the same exact act or same exact tyva, the, the strong... Like i-if you are, you know, if you're down in the middle of the day, maybe you won't open up the bag of potato chips. But if you're down and tired, right, then you will.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 That's the word Dr. Evere uses exactly. The atlos of kvados, the laziness and the heaviness.

1:10:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:10:36 Speaker 1 The heaviness means an, like an emotional heaviness. When you're tired, that's, that's where you go to, a place which come from atlos, negative emotions. Why am I, why am I, why am I bringing this up? Someone comes to you and says, "I'm st- I'm struggling in this area of a decision." Let's say, "I'm struggling with, uh, watching movies."

1:10:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:53 Speaker 1 Binge-watching movies. What are you gonna tell a person? If we really looked at Tanya as a, as a practical guide, you would say, "Hello, the issue isn't, the issue isn't movies. The issue isn't that you need to now suddenly, uh, you know, exert more self-control in the area of movies. What's going on? Are you feeling guilty about something? Are you feeling, uh, shamed about something?" That's diagnosing the issue, and that's what Rabbi's telling us. But we don't do that. Why? Because Tanya is on the head. It's all-

1:11:23 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:11:23 Speaker 1 ... it's all something we learn in...

1:11:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:25 Speaker 1 But when we have an actual issue, how many of us think to say, "One second, my answer actually is in Tanya." It'd be why? Because Dr. Reb is addressing strugglers, and that's one of the struggles we have. Let me look what does Tanya have to say about this.

1:11:36 Speaker 2 But this, this, I mean, you, I think you would agree that this s- severely de-romanticizes chassidis, right? Like you, it, it almost like, it almost makes chassidis sound like what you'd hear from a therapist. You know, maybe it's a behavioral therapist as opposed to, I don't know, you know, I'm not a

1:11:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:11:55 Speaker 2 ... therapy, but saying it sounds like, oh, you have this problem, let's kind of uncover the source of the problem and let's fix that behavior, which will fix this, this, this outgrowth of the behavior, the symptom, right? It, it kind of de-romanticizes the whole like

1:12:15 Speaker 1 I lo- I love de-romanticizing. I, I'm, I'm not sure where you're going with this. Ultimately-

1:12:18 Speaker 2 I'm not accusing-

1:12:19 Speaker 1 ... chassidis is the ultimate psychology.

1:12:20 Speaker 2 I'm not accusing-

1:12:20 Speaker 1 We don't need psychology. We have chassidis.

1:12:22 Speaker 2 I'm not accusing. I'm, but I'm saying you're... But is, but you, you s- you, you agree that that's, that's a consequence, right? The whole kind of how does this fit with the whole... There is a romanticism to chassidis, right? There's a romanticism of ele kos and, and, and, you know, hagashim and, and feelings and like the kind of ethereal stuff.

1:12:43 Speaker 1 You, you-

1:12:43 Speaker 2 It doesn't talk to you

1:12:44 Speaker 1 ... can call, you can call it romanticism. I call it, uh, de-relevi- de-relevant, uh, whatever you wanna call it, relevantizing it. In other words, yes, and people throw at you words and concepts, and Hebrew words specifically, you know that there are some there. It's not real. It's not real. The more Hebrew you use, by the way, like, uh, in terms that you throw around, like

1:13:03 Speaker 2 Right

1:13:03 Speaker 1 ... if it's real, use real words.

1:13:05 Speaker 2 How does, how does this talk, how does this, this kind of vocabulary that you're using of, of being very practical and strategic and, and very, like, specific, down to earth, how does that fit into Fabregin with, with Lchaim and Negunim? Forget about, forget about the herring and then, and the kulles and all that stuff. How does it fit into-

1:13:26 Speaker 1 Where, where does this heresy come from about forgetting about the herring?

1:13:29 Speaker 2 No including the herring.

1:13:31 Speaker 1 Oh, okay, now we can continue.

1:13:33 Speaker 2 I was saying, how does, how does it fit in? It come to Fabregin, you, you, you say a few Lchaims, you sing a few Negunim, and now we're gonna start talking about strategies of, of behavioral strategies. I-I'm asking. It, it doesn't feel like it vibes. One feels like it comes from a more, um, you know, a, a, a calm room with a couch and a very kind of, uh, soft, uh, talk. And then Fabregin feels a lot more, I don't know, like... Am, am I making, am I not making sense? To me they feel, to me-

1:14:08 Speaker 1 Not the Fabregin's a rampart.

1:14:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:14:10 Speaker 1 Fabregin's a rampart-

1:14:11 Speaker 2 It works. It works together.

1:14:13 Speaker 1 The word works is the wrong word. That is a Fabregin.

1:14:15 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:14:16 Speaker 1 Fabregin's real.

1:14:17 Speaker 2 Real. Right. How does Atilus figure into all of this?

1:14:23 Speaker 1 That's a good question. What is Atilus?

1:14:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:27 Speaker 1 Atilus is bittel to the, to the, to the Ayesha.

1:14:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:30 Speaker 1 So when I'm talking about Atilus, what I'm talking about bittel. So if I wanna... If, if I would like to achieve Atilus in my life, the question is, that's what Khakhma is. What is Khakhma? By the way, talking about, you know, translations. Khakhma, bina, da'as, wisdom, understanding, knowledge. Talk about three words which are absolutely meaningless to the average person.

1:14:46 Speaker 2 Yes, of course.

1:14:47 Speaker 1 Okay. So what are better, what, what are re-realer translations? Uh, my, my, my point is-

1:14:53 Speaker 2 You're not trying to insist on a specific translation. You're, you're saying there should be a translation that, that, that makes sense.

1:14:58 Speaker 1 What does Atilus look like? You could say Atilus is called emanation, right?

1:15:01 Speaker 2 Right. It does not-

1:15:01 Speaker 1 Emanation means nothing. Atilus means nothing. What is Atilus?

1:15:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:04 Speaker 1 What is Atilus? Atilus is a state where there's a lack of self-identity, of utter bittel.

1:15:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:10 Speaker 1 Okay, so now that becomes relevant. Can I achieve that? Can I not achieve it? Atilus is a very

1:15:14 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:15 Speaker 1 You know, with the greatest tzaddik can have the shamans of atzilus, but can I taste atzilus once in a while? Maybe that's something different, bring them up. Can I taste a level of bittul? And if yes, how do I get there?

1:15:24 Speaker 2 But I'm saying, but to put, but to put a fine point on it, what you're suggesting is that ultimately one way or another, so this all has to kol neharos hayichus el yam, right? The, or hayichus el yam. The, all, all these ma'amarim, all these things, they have to come back to the source, which is avodas Hashem, which is language that relates to the person in the, in, in words that he understands. Even if that, you know, just, just the mere fact of translating to English de-romanticizes it kind of, you know-

1:15:56 Speaker 1 Usually not.

1:15:57 Speaker 2 Well, from the, the h- the kind of-

1:15:59 Speaker 1 'Cause the kind of translations that people usually use manage to retain-

1:16:03 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

1:16:04 Speaker 1 ... the flavor of irrelevance. Um-

1:16:06 Speaker 2 Irrelevance? It's-

1:16:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:16:08 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying the translation that you're advocating for.

1:16:10 Speaker 1 Right. By the way, interestingly, there's a letter-

1:16:12 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying it kind of loses the, the, the, the, the Yiddish and the, the, and it doesn't lose a little bit of the Moltke kind of, uh, feel.

1:16:22 Speaker 1 I'm not sure what you mean.

1:16:25 Speaker 2 Uh, I mean, they, they didn't speak English back in the day, and-

1:16:28 Speaker 1 Okay

1:16:28 Speaker 2 ... so, so they, they would understand what we're talking about, and they would farbrengen different, in different languages with different words.

1:16:34 Speaker 1 So you have to, everyone has to talk their language. I-

1:16:36 Speaker 2 I mean, would, would, would Reb Nissan and Reb Mendel farbrengen about shame? I would wager they never did. But maybe they, maybe they did on a different level.

1:16:49 Speaker 1 I don't know. Reb Nissan, I don't know how connected Reb Nissan was to the average person.

1:16:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:56 Speaker 1 So I don't know.

1:16:58 Speaker 2 The truth is, Barry Farkas on this podcast said that Reb Mendel did, uh, you know, it was very interesting, he said that Reb Mendel was farbrengen about the, the, when they were spoken about Sei HaCharev, Reb Mendel said that what I was telling you is to get out of your iron cages. Everybody's in their iron cages locked up, and everyone's, Hashem wants people to talk to each other. So that, that's an interesting-- And when I heard that, my mind was blown because, like, that's more of a bridge between the way they thought and the way people today-

1:17:29 Speaker 1 So Reb Mendel was definitely much more practical, but you also have to remember-