Ep. 45 // "Painting The Truth I See" w/ Mendel Treitel

00:00 Speaker 1 I'm trying to depict that a person can only see the light through a sefer, meaning that a person in that zone, when they're with Sefarim, they're learning and they're participating, meaning they're, they're learning a maimer, a sicha, a siman in Shulchan Aruch, a daf gemara because that is the truth and the core of their existence, and their window to the heaven, so to say. That's what I'm trying to depict.

00:33 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here in Brownsville with, uh, Rabbi Mendel Treitel. Um, let me start that again. Hold on a sec. All right. Now I take a sip of coffee. Now I wake up.

01:10 Speaker 1 But I, I have... I'm waiting when to say it. I'm, I'm curious to know when you think our first, uh, conversation happened.

01:19 Speaker 2 I don't think we had a conversation. I mean, interaction?

01:22 Speaker 1 Our first interaction.

01:23 Speaker 2 Well, uh, online, I think I, I, I probably commented on your art.

01:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:27 Speaker 2 Whenever I see something interesting, I comment. I mean, I don't, like, comment like a bored soul, but I, I, I hope I said something nice to you.

01:33 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:34 Speaker 2 I hope-

01:35 Speaker 1 No, you did, but I'm, I'm going way back to 2006 in Gan Yisroel, New York.

01:39 Speaker 2 Ah. That has nothing to do with it.

01:41 Speaker 1 Yachikala. Yeah.

01:43 Speaker 2 All right. If that's what we're doing. All righty. Okay. I'm here with, uh, Rabbi Mendel Treitel, artist Mendel Treitel. Um, we have known each other a little bit online, and you were beginning to tell me that you, that you met me earlier in my life i- in Gan Yisroel, New York. We were a classmate. You were a bunk mate of one of my brothers?

02:04 Speaker 1 No, your cousin, Bentzi Shemtov Uruguay, was our counselor.

02:08 Speaker 2 Ah. Uh, yeah, yeah, I remember that summer. I came b- I came towards the end of the summer.

02:11 Speaker 1 For Yachikala.

02:13 Speaker 2 No, I think I was just finishing Argentina. I didn't like come for Yachikala. I think Argentina just finished. No. I came for Yachikala? Okay. So can I come-

02:19 Speaker 1 I think it was Shabbos Yachikala.

02:21 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. No. And?

02:24 Speaker 1 And you, you came to our bunk to tell us a story.

02:27 Speaker 2 About?

02:28 Speaker 1 Ab- that there was a man who went to a restaurant, um, who didn't have any money to pay for his food, and he told the owner, "If you don't feed me, I'm gonna do to you what my father did. I'm gonna do what my father did."

02:41 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

02:41 Speaker 1 And it kept going on. The guy said, "I can't, I can't give you food." So he said, "I'm gonna do what my father did." So the guy gives him a whole meal, and he, and he eats and whatever everything, and the guy says, "I'm just curious, what did your father do?" He said, "I went to sleep hungry."

02:56 Speaker 2 Is that an old Jewish joke?

02:57 Speaker 1 Yes. I still remember that as Gan Yisroel Yachikala 2006.

03:02 Speaker 2 What? Yeah.

03:03 Speaker 1 In Gan Yisroel, New York, 'cause I think that was at my first time-

03:06 Speaker 2 That's the closest-

03:06 Speaker 1 ... encountering you.

03:07 Speaker 2 Okay. Well, I'm not that funny in real life, and, and the... it's the, it's the closest I've ever come to being a counselor in camp. I never, I never really made it.

03:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:15 Speaker 2 But that's funny that you'd be r- that I'd be remembered that way by someone. Anyway, shout out to Bentzi.

03:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:21 Speaker 2 Uh, listener of the pod. Hey, Bentzi. Anyway, um, yeah. So M-Mendel is an artist in Sydney Austr- who lives today in Sydney, Australia from Montreal. Um, I came across your art online. Maybe someone told me about you or whatever. Um, but I came across your art online, and, uh, what struck me right away was that, uh, you know, on one hand, you're very openly, you know, a Lubavitcher, and, um, not just because you have a beard, but also, like, uh, there were... d- even in your art or in your process of art, you would have, like, Sefarim around. And, um, yeah, I wasn't reading too much into it, but you clearly... It was obvious that you're a Lubavitcher, but on the other hand, your art was not at all, um, typical, um-

04:15 Speaker 1 Judaic.

04:16 Speaker 2 It was not Judaica, but... No, but it also just wasn't, you know, it was, like, very modern and flowers and, um, a lion, I remember, and, uh, people like, like, oh, you know, um, uh, I don't... I'm gonna, I'm gonna embarrass myself if I try to-

04:30 Speaker 1 Mm

04:31 Speaker 2 ... categorize it, but, you know, w- express- expressionism? No. No, it's way, way past that.

04:36 Speaker 1 Right.

04:36 Speaker 2 Where hands and arm, hands and heads are not connected.

04:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

04:38 Speaker 2 What was that called?

04:40 Speaker 1 It's hard to fully categorize it. It's, it's, it's modern art.

04:44 Speaker 2 Modern art.

04:45 Speaker 1 But now it's figurative, meaning there's human f-figures-

04:49 Speaker 2 So it's already less modern-

04:50 Speaker 1 ... and all

04:50 Speaker 2 ... than the people who paint nothing.

04:52 Speaker 1 That, that's abstract. Yeah.

04:53 Speaker 2 Right. So it's not-

04:54 Speaker 1 Abstract expressionism

04:54 Speaker 2 ... your thing is not considered abstract anymore?

04:56 Speaker 1 I don't think so because you see- ... um, figures. There's-

05:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

05:00 Speaker 1 ... identifiable figures, whereas abstract-

05:02 Speaker 2 So Picasso's not considered abstract anymore?

05:05 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't think so. He's a version. He, he's like the avant-garde of France, which is-

05:11 Speaker 2 Right

05:11 Speaker 1 ... after, uh, post-impressionism, which would be, uh, van Gogh. Um-

05:17 Speaker 2 Van Gogh.

05:18 Speaker 1 So that van Gogh is impressionism.

05:20 Speaker 2 Right.

05:20 Speaker 1 Was post-impressionism, and Picasso is after that. So already towards the beginning of the 19th century, art becomes less defined by visual, uh, statements, by visual style, and becomes more, um, till today, it's more unique to the painter, and we... there's less of a focus on the, the Stilshule's-

05:43 Speaker 2 Right

05:43 Speaker 1 ... uh, exactly of art. So you'll have different elements-

05:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

05:46 Speaker 1 ... in a singular artist or painting of different styles of art.

05:50 Speaker 2 Right. So things basically fell apart in terms of, uh, uniformity and, and all trying to, to, to follow a s- a similar path.

06:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, but that's, that's part of the... again, that's part of sort of the whole Stilshule's part and the subject of art as being this linear Uh, the shtal shuloz we'll call it.

06:10 Speaker 2 Right.

06:10 Speaker 1 Um, that, um, that really brings up the conversation, which I don't know if that's the focus right now, on, um, on the meaning of art. Meaning to say, when art- when modern art came to America in the 1930s, let's say the MoMA in Manhattan, right? There was a big, um, war against it, like all the art-

06:34 Speaker 2 Mm

06:34 Speaker 1 ... critics and even politicians, because it represented not seeing reali- it represented distorting reality to some form of subjective experience.

06:43 Speaker 2 And this was even before Picasso, right?

06:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is-

06:45 Speaker 2 This is like Monet and people-

06:46 Speaker 1 Exactly

06:47 Speaker 2 ... people who are w- what we today would a- like amateurs like me would think as like old-fashioned art-

06:52 Speaker 1 Exactly

06:52 Speaker 2 ... because it shows a river and an actual thing.

06:54 Speaker 1 Exactly.

06:54 Speaker 2 And even then people were upset about it.

06:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. Right.

06:56 Speaker 2 'Cause it wasn't, it wasn't, uh, in the real old style where it-

06:59 Speaker 1 It represented objective reality

07:00 Speaker 2 ... it wasn't 100%.

07:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:02 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. Well, l- l- maybe we'll, we will get to there. Um, uh, I'm not, I'm not-

07:08 Speaker 1 My point is I don't know exactly where my art fits in in terms of the specific location.

07:14 Speaker 2 It, it doesn't fit into the typical Hasidic art gallery. That we can agree on.

07:19 Speaker 1 That's correct. Yeah.

07:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, we have some of it sitting here and plenty more online if you wanna go check it out. But, um, yeah. So I mean, I, I think let's start with how did, how did a nice Lubavitch boy from Montreal end up, uh, painting, uh, faces without hands or without... Yeah.

07:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:37 Speaker 2 Without torsos?

07:38 Speaker 1 Um, I'm, I'm just debating where to start. I'm really trying to understand the question. Like, there's the practical journey of it or the, or the how can it be, meaning how did it happen or how can it be that such a thing happened?

07:54 Speaker 2 Let's start with the how, with how it happened, just the story.

07:57 Speaker 1 So, okay. So how it happened is, is that from when I was about, uh, six, seven years old, um, I started drawing and basically never stopped. Class is going on, I'm doodling. Even in yeshiva, which we may get to, I become very studious and pursuing learning very heavily. Even then, on the margins of many of my sefarim till today, there's a lot of drawings definitely in the bookends, drawing, drawing, drawing all the time. Anytime.

08:24 Speaker 2 What are you drawing? Just-

08:26 Speaker 1 Anything. Anything. No, it's not Judaic. It's usually very similar to what I'm painting now.

08:31 Speaker 2 Flowers?

08:32 Speaker 1 No. So now it's people. It's just people in certain states of mind, basically, which you can see. It's usually someone sitting by a book. Um, many times that's the case from yeshiva till now.

08:44 Speaker 2 That's what you were painting then.

08:44 Speaker 1 I did paint, paint flowers... Uh, that was, I was drawing then.

08:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:47 Speaker 1 I did, um, paint flowers for a while, which I don't do as much anymore.

08:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:51 Speaker 1 Now it's back to those yeshiva drawings, I'm gonna s- I call them.

08:54 Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

08:55 Speaker 1 Which are basically people with books usually, or people sitting alone and thinking and things like that. And there's all different drawings of that, um, throughout my life basically. And just, again, just drawing, drawing, drawing, drawing. And then I sort of developed a little bit of a specific style on my own, not even knowing of Picasso. Definitely not what his paintings looked like or anything. Um, and then fast-forward a little more as a shliach in LA, Mesifta, and the kids thought it was very... Like, the drawings were very exciting, and there was a whole... They would collect them. They would go to where I was learning, and they would take the papers that I left at the table, and it was a whole game to collect basically all these little doodles that I made.

09:36 Speaker 2 Right.

09:36 Speaker 1 And some of them still have them till today.

09:37 Speaker 2 Really?

09:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, so all those things-

09:41 Speaker 2 But wait, wait one second.

09:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:42 Speaker 2 So you, you would be learning a Gemara-

09:44 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:44 Speaker 2 ... and then you would start, like, kind of drifting off-

09:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:47 Speaker 2 ... and painting? Like-

09:48 Speaker 1 Drawing. The pencil.

09:49 Speaker 2 That's... I... Okay. But I'm saying you-

09:50 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:50 Speaker 2 ... you, you were drifting off. Like-

09:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:52 Speaker 2 ... like everybody kind of spaces out.

09:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:54 Speaker 2 And instead of falling asleep or whatever-

09:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:57 Speaker 2 ... a Bachur would do-

09:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

09:58 Speaker 2 ... you started drawing.

09:59 Speaker 1 And then I would go right back in after five minutes.

10:01 Speaker 2 Right. Social-

10:02 Speaker 1 Back out.

10:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:04 Speaker 1 Um, and yeah. So again, it started definitely with being completely not participating in class or the shiur. But then as time progressed and yeshiva progressed and my pursuit of Yiddish kind of learning progressed, it never was absent at any stage.

10:21 Speaker 2 Right.

10:21 Speaker 1 So maybe it was less time or more time, but the concept, the creative flow was always with me. It was always very present.

10:30 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, so, so clearly it's something that comes naturally to you.

10:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:34 Speaker 2 Like the same way that some kids pick up a g- a guitar at a young age-

10:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

10:38 Speaker 2 ... and they just figure out how to play music. They're just... Something about the way that they are-

10:43 Speaker 1 Yeah

10:43 Speaker 2 ... the way that they're born is j- gr- you know, is... Makes them able to figure out music in a way that most people would need to go to classes-

10:51 Speaker 1 Yeah

10:51 Speaker 2 ... and spend who knows how long to learn.

10:52 Speaker 1 But it's also, it's more than that. It's not just a skill that comes natural, and I think the same is for music. It's also almost like a need in a way. It's a certain-

11:00 Speaker 2 Right.

11:01 Speaker 1 It's something... It's a certain voice that's screaming out within you that needs to be-

11:05 Speaker 2 Right

11:05 Speaker 1 ... expressed and needs to go outside.

11:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no. I, I don't disagree with that, but I, I think very often people jump to that. I'll get to that in a second.

11:13 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

11:13 Speaker 2 I think people jump to this kind of inner torment, conflict.

11:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

11:17 Speaker 2 You know, Chaim Potok, "My Name Is Asher Lev." I'm sure you read that.

11:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

11:20 Speaker 2 And, uh, we could get to that. I, I think that book is a load of nonsense in my opinion.

11:25 Speaker 1 I think it's amazing.

11:26 Speaker 2 Okay, great. It was a great conversation. I, I, I, I think I... Yeah. I don't... Now I'm interested to hear what you think about it. But, um, but I think a lot of times people jump to the conflict of like, you know, you know-

11:43 Speaker 1 The romance

11:43 Speaker 2 ... is, is art... No. Like, no. It's like are, are you... You know, "You're an artist, but you shouldn't be an artist, but I need to be an artist." And so it's like, you know, like are you being true to yourself? And we're going straight to that modern-day question of authenticity and, and who am I, when I think that, you know, at the very... Like, before you get there, I'm not saying it's not true, but before you get there, there's just the idea that some people are good at certain things, right? They're, they're just... Like the person standing on the outside who's looking at you doodling doesn't even comprehend ... how easy this comes to you. This, it's not only about, like, your inner soul, it's just something that you're doing. It's not, it's not... In a way, people, I think, project s- too much into it because they don't understand how easily it comes to you. They think that you must be doing it because all this is going on inside of you, when, when really it's just, this is, like, it comes, it comes second nature.

12:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:41 Speaker 2 Like, some people are just born this way. Like, they, they, they're good at drawing. They like drawing. It... That's what they, that's what they reach for when other people reach for fidget spinners. Like-

12:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:50 Speaker 2 ... you know, it's just, it's just natural. Like, with music also, like, I, I think, I think, like, we skip that step sometimes, right? It's just-

12:58 Speaker 1 Okay. We could get to, I guess when we get to the, I, which I imagine we'll get to the, the art conversation thing, um, we could get to that. But just the, the sort of the, the bio.

13:11 Speaker 2 All right.

13:11 Speaker 1 Um, just wanna continue that.

13:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. No, okay.

13:13 Speaker 1 Um-

13:13 Speaker 2 Keep on going.

13:14 Speaker 1 Um, so yeah, drawing, yeshiva, collecting. So these things start to signal to me is that I sort of, there's something going on over here, that there's something I'm doing that's unique.

13:24 Speaker 2 Right.

13:24 Speaker 1 And every type of person, um, likes it, meaning, meaning that it's not just this cute thing in yeshiva 'cause I'm a tellium, and then I meet people, and I'm constantly starting to... Again, as I become more mature and, um, independent in my... Even in, even, even as a shliach in yeshiva, which I was still very, um, um, very involved in the worlds of yeshiva, I was still starting to get a little bit curious for art galleries, and I think that's when I read My Name Is Asher Lev.

13:52 Speaker 2 Okay.

13:52 Speaker 1 Um, and then, um, so just continuing that, still not pursuing or planning or m- thinking I'm gonna be painting, anything like that. I do think that there's a world, a possibility where I can be doing that, um, but that's... there's no plan. Um, then after yeshiva, after smicha, like after everything-

14:12 Speaker 2 One, one second. Why, why did you start reading My Name Is Asher Lev?

14:15 Speaker 1 Um, because bec- as I became older and started to notice more things in the world, and I think someone suggested-

14:25 Speaker 2 Mm

14:25 Speaker 1 ... I read it. And as many times is the case when you're in shlichus and you get a little bit more independence, um, you start to become more curious, or I did at least. So I had access to it, and I started to read it, and I fell, I fell in, like, in love with it. But the truth is it was my second year of shlichus actually that that happened.

14:46 Speaker 2 No, but my question is, wait, were you reading that book because you felt that you were facing this kind of fork in the road?

14:54 Speaker 1 No.

14:54 Speaker 2 And you needed a book that-

14:55 Speaker 1 No

14:56 Speaker 2 ... spoke to that?

14:56 Speaker 1 It's simply entertainment, meaning-

14:57 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay

14:58 Speaker 1 ... I heard about this concept, and it sounded like it, it had a lot of resonance with me.

15:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:04 Speaker 1 And I read a little bit of it and felt, "Yeah, this is it," and I just went with it all the way and loved it.

15:12 Speaker 2 But, but the story doesn't resonate with your story as far as you've told me so far because-

15:17 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say

15:18 Speaker 2 ... because My Name Is Asher Lev is all about... It, the whole i- the whole premise of the book is that there's a conflict, an inherent conflict between religiosity and art.

15:28 Speaker 1 A perceived... We... I think, again, I wanna g- um, with a little structure like that. Um, but I think the idea of the book for me was is that there's a perceived inherent conflict, um, perceived inherent, uh, conflict, but sort of the Rebbe, um, shows the, shows Asher Lev that there isn't-

15:46 Speaker 2 Mm

15:46 Speaker 1 ... and he could be himself no matter what the community says and be c- c- um, be completely in pursuit of his, of his avoda sort of. Um-

15:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

15:59 Speaker 1 ... and that for me was, was my relationship, was my relationship to Yiddishkeit, the Rebbe, and all that-

16:05 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

16:05 Speaker 1 ... made so much sense. The truth is, in that book, um, and I'm sure not many people are... some people will be and some people are not familiar, there is that c- that typical author's, um, narrative at the end where it completely makes him out to be... that he ends up completely disconnecting-

16:21 Speaker 2 Right

16:22 Speaker 1 ... from Yiddishkeit, and he separates from the community. So at the end of the book, I didn't like at all. The last, I think it's the last chapter or two.

16:28 Speaker 2 No, but the whole thing that, like-

16:29 Speaker 1 But the whole story is very-

16:31 Speaker 2 The whole thing to be an artist, you have, you have to draw the cross.

16:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:34 Speaker 2 You have to draw the crucifixion-

16:36 Speaker 1 Right

16:36 Speaker 2 ... and you have to draw nudes.

16:38 Speaker 1 Right.

16:38 Speaker 2 And, and, and the whole... And this goes back to your talking earlier where, like, right away he pits the story as are you being true to your religion or are you being true to your artistic self?

16:48 Speaker 1 Right.

16:48 Speaker 2 As if those two are obviously in conflict.

16:51 Speaker 1 Right.

16:52 Speaker 2 You know, skipping over the step of, like, this kid's just good at art.

16:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:56 Speaker 2 Like, why are you jumping the gun and saying he's an artist?

16:57 Speaker 1 Because I do think it's more than that. I do think it's much more than that. I think being an artist is much more than just having a skillful hand.

17:04 Speaker 2 Okay.

17:04 Speaker 1 There is a certain creative soul which, again, I think we could get to, and I would say I would like to express that there's... and maybe we could get to this again more in the biography, in yeshiva, and being a creative person in a, in a very, in a, in a Chabad setting, in a, in a natural Chabad yeshiva life could be very conflicting. I mean, even if you could draw, just your identity and the way you respond to things could be very, very difficult, and it was at times.

17:36 Speaker 2 It was?

17:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Um-

17:38 Speaker 2 In, in, in what way?

17:41 Speaker 1 Um, I'm still, like, on a pause in my head from that, but we could jump in and out.

17:45 Speaker 2 If, if... Yeah.

17:47 Speaker 1 Um, so in what way was it conflicting is because I think being crea- I think it's not just being skillful, I think it's being creative, um, that I th- I don't think there's a lot of room for it in the basic... And I don't think this has anything to do with Chabad, Hasidis, or... But definitely in the functioning of a Lubavitch yeshiva, whether it's an elementary cheder or a yeshiva, there's no space, room, encouragement for any form of creativity, definitely in a conventional sense.

18:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:18 Speaker 1 And on the contrary, the per- the bachur who comes in with, with a nice sweater or something like that is usually the target Um, by fellow Bacharim and Mashbim, and I'm just... I'm not, uh, not going onto that rant, but I'm just saying of being-

18:34 Speaker 2 Right

18:35 Speaker 1 ... being, being, uh, looking different and being different in that, in that own little way. So even when I'm, I'm not talking about major trauma or things like that, but there's definitely a sense, a feeling that you're somewhat, like, p- sticking out-

18:49 Speaker 2 Right

18:49 Speaker 1 ... in a certain way, and you feel that... I at least felt that throughout my entire yeshiva, uh, experience, which I loved and think was the best part of, uh, most important part of my life so far.

19:02 Speaker 2 You, you felt, you felt what? You felt that, um, that-

19:06 Speaker 1 I felt like my natural disposition was in conflict with the natural disposition of the environment of yeshiva.

19:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is A Garden, a new film and concert production by UVLA Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Baser Agani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is A Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad house and community. Share the message and vision of Baser Agani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. What's interesting to me is that you, you kind of tied your realization that you're actually an artist with, like, as later on people started responding to it.

20:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

20:11 Speaker 2 But how did you see that before? Before people start... Like, before you're 20 years old, did you see yourself as an artist? Like-

20:17 Speaker 1 As a... I would say as a creative. As an artist, but, like, as a creative specifically, and that's what I think is very interesting that, yeah, there is... I, I think it's true that there's some people are more creative-natured people.

20:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:30 Speaker 1 Uh, there's a lot of, um, beautiful things to it and difficult things to it, but I do think it's true. Um, and I think that was definitely without me- with me throughout my entire, my entire life, even before I was even drawing very well or anything like that. And specifically in clothing.

20:50 Speaker 2 Right.

20:50 Speaker 1 That was always something that was very, um, close to me. Like, even nothing, nothing very rogue or whatever, but just even wearing a sweater that had, was, had a pattern or wearing one sweater one day and another sweater another day was always very-

21:05 Speaker 2 Right

21:05 Speaker 1 ... shocking to people around. Um, and I remember once going to Izalt. We accepted Izal, and I was, and a very good Bachar and definitely following the rules, even learning and everything like that. And I was getting a interview with a, an Halah member. But I really... I, I wanna get to this later, but I'm gonna talk about it now because I don't wanna come across or be trying to bash or anything like that. I just, just... I'm telling you history. I'm not telling you opinions.

21:31 Speaker 2 Okay.

21:32 Speaker 1 Um, that this Mashpia was literally was on Eastern Parkway across from 770, and he told me that I'm an amazing Bachar and everything, but he doesn't like my pants. That he doesn't like the fit of my pants. So if I could change that, then I could come to yeshiva. Um, and again, there was, like, there was not... Other than that aspect, I would be sort of, at least externally, a perfect Bachar. So I was always very aware of that, uh-

22:01 Speaker 2 I see

22:01 Speaker 1 ... of that reality.

22:03 Speaker 2 I see. So, so e- before you're seeing yourself as a, like, a professional painter-

22:08 Speaker 1 Exactly

22:08 Speaker 2 ... or artist, you, you already sense that there's s- there's an impulse in me that, that is, that somehow doesn't work within this-

22:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

22:18 Speaker 2 ... system.

22:19 Speaker 1 Like a, a natural disposition personality thing-

22:22 Speaker 2 Yeah

22:22 Speaker 1 ... that has no place. Not only no place, it's, it's rejected.

22:25 Speaker 2 Right.

22:26 Speaker 1 Um, I think now in many times it went-

22:28 Speaker 2 So I-

22:28 Speaker 1 ... gone completely to the opposite extreme.

22:30 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

22:31 Speaker 1 Which is, I think, in a way awful, and I'm speaking very extreme language, became there's no direction, no values, even in y- mainstream yeshivas, which is crazy to me spending Shabbats in Crown Heights, seeing, like, um, Bacharim. Um, but in that, which is the opposite extreme, but in that context-

22:49 Speaker 2 Well, what do you mean? That the yeshivas are like to, like, do whatever you want. We can't tell you right or, like we can't tell you no.

22:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no, there's no inner value system. It's just about getting by.

23:01 Speaker 2 Feeling good.

23:02 Speaker 1 Feeling... And then feeling good, like, even as an institution, yeshiva is just about being this functional place where Bacharim come in and out, and they pay the bills, and-

23:09 Speaker 2 Right

23:09 Speaker 1 ... everything's good, and there's not too much turmoil. There's no pa- inner participation.

23:15 Speaker 2 So that's interesting because you are, you are... You, you're describing to me a guy who's in yeshiva who, like you described yourself earlier, you know, a good Bachar in the sense of following the rules, learning.

23:31 Speaker 1 You know, stay there on time, early.

23:33 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. You're not making, you're not making any trouble.

23:34 Speaker 1 No.

23:35 Speaker 2 Um, and, and, and... But you, you... Even so, you've, you know, a guy, like, meets you, and he comments on your pants.

23:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:43 Speaker 2 Which I, I don't know how hot-headed you were as a Bachar-

23:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:46 Speaker 2 ... but even if you're not so hot-headed, a- as a, even as an adult also, but certainly as an adolescent, pisses you off.

23:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:53 Speaker 2 Like get, get lost.

23:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:55 Speaker 2 Get lost. You're not doing anything wrong here. Why, why did you stick it out?

24:00 Speaker 1 That's a very good question. Um, and just to, like, heighten the question, I'm saying there's more than that. There's also... Thick glasses weren't a thing, but I got, like... Everything comes to the Frum world about two, three years later-

24:13 Speaker 2 Right

24:13 Speaker 1 ... in terms, like, I remember Crocs even.

24:15 Speaker 2 Right.

24:15 Speaker 1 And a guy in Strong York, we had Crocs, like, in 2002, 2003, who was making fun of us that we have holes in our shoes. Two years later, every kid in camp has Crocs, and same thing with thick glasses.

24:25 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:25 Speaker 1 Everybody thought they're the biggest klippa. Two years later, every Mashpia is wearing thick glasses. So-

24:31 Speaker 2 Right

24:31 Speaker 1 ... um, this... So, oh, so then when I had thick glasses, uh, that was, like, the talk of town.

24:35 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:35 Speaker 1 Again, I'm, I'm overstating it, but I think the point, the, the point that it makes some form of impression of feeling like an outsider, meaning-

24:43 Speaker 2 Right

24:43 Speaker 1 ... feeling a sense of differentiation, of tension-

24:46 Speaker 2 Right

24:47 Speaker 1 ... in a very natural way, um, was felt. And I remember times, like, Mashbia pulling off my glasses.

24:53 Speaker 2 Really?

24:53 Speaker 1 I'm gonna do Farbrengen.

24:54 Speaker 2 Really?

24:55 Speaker 1 And my brother-

24:55 Speaker 2 They tried to, they tried to, they tried to make fun of you?

24:57 Speaker 1 Make fun. Yeah, yeah. I remember my brother also, he had thick glasses and a small brim hat. The Mashpia took away his hat.

25:02 Speaker 2 This is your older brother?

25:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. Ari.

25:04 Speaker 2 I, I didn't know-

25:04 Speaker 1 So it was in... I don't know if he'd be happy to, if I'm talking about this, but I remember I was, uh, Yud Shvat. I think it was at the oil, and the Mashpia was... He was sitting there. Mashpia, the Mashpia took away his glasses and his hat. Couldn't farbrengen with someone, um, wearing-

25:18 Speaker 2 It was bothering him.

25:19 Speaker 1 It was bothering, yeah.

25:19 Speaker 2 And his hat.

25:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:21 Speaker 2 What was wrong with his hat?

25:21 Speaker 1 'Cause it was in-

25:22 Speaker 2 Small brim?

25:22 Speaker 1 It was a small brim, which again now is standard. But this was-

25:25 Speaker 2 All right. Okay, okay, okay

25:25 Speaker 1 ... a year before it became standard.

25:27 Speaker 2 I, I know I'm kind of-

25:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:28 Speaker 2 ... I'm not letting you go linear, but-

25:30 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:30 Speaker 2 ... I'm also surprised that you want to be linear given your art.

25:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:33 Speaker 2 Like, we're, we're all over the place.

25:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:34 Speaker 2 Think of, think of it as a, uh-

25:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:36 Speaker 2 ... as a, think of it as like-

25:37 Speaker 1 Studio session

25:38 Speaker 2 ... No, think of it as like, uh, modern art.

25:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:40 Speaker 2 We're gonna dance around. Um, unless you definitely wanna go linear. I, I, uh, sometimes I just can't help myself but ask, like, so the mashpiyim are picking on you and your brother about your glasses and your hat.

25:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:53 Speaker 2 What-

25:53 Speaker 1 Me specifically. I'm just bringing that story as a-

25:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, but-

25:55 Speaker 1 ... historical anecdote.

25:56 Speaker 2 Okay. What do your, like, what do your parents think about all this? Like, my guess is they're the ones that paid for these glasses or in Ca-

26:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

26:04 Speaker 2 ... or in Canada maybe the government did.

26:06 Speaker 1 No.

26:06 Speaker 2 But they allowed, they, you know.

26:09 Speaker 1 No. So that, um... They, yeah, they paid for it and they supported it and everything like that, but I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go there just yet.

26:17 Speaker 2 Okay. Fair.

26:18 Speaker 1 Um, but yeah, so you asked a good question before that I'm stuck on now, because I become very stuck on questions, um, about how did I survive, sort of. And, and I do think in a way it's a miracle.

26:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

26:28 Speaker 1 Um, especially with... Which I think I'm very proud of, is my continued pursuit of, of Hasidus Limud HaTorah, and Avodas Hashem in a very real and personal way. Um, meaning to say that I didn't just survive.

26:45 Speaker 2 Mm.

26:45 Speaker 1 I actually loved Yeshiva.

26:47 Speaker 2 Mm.

26:47 Speaker 1 And at a certain point, I was able to separate the two and take it. If a mashpia felt like he had to go off, that was his problem. I was able to very much separate the individual and the religion, sort of, the personalities.

27:00 Speaker 2 Wow.

27:00 Speaker 1 That was, and it's still, um, uh, my greatest, um, pursuit almost with all things. Um, and it can become, it can become a negative, meaning 'cause you become a little bit disconnected. You disassociate with yourself, yourself with a lot of the culture-

27:20 Speaker 2 Mm

27:20 Speaker 1 ... of Hasidus, of, not of Hasidus, of Lubavitch and of religion and yeshiva life. So you can become a little bit cold to any form of events that happen that are not directly related to the religion or Hasidus or things like that. Um, so that's the, the negative side effect to it-

27:41 Speaker 2 Mm

27:41 Speaker 1 ... which I don't know how negative it is. Um, but specific- I think what happened is, is that it was a miracle that there was a few mashpiyim and teachers that really, uh, either looked after me, I connected with, and then they were just my everything. I think, say out of maybe 25 teachers, maybe even more, that I've had from cheder through yeshiva, there's three that I would consider my ke- three or four that I would consider actual teachers. And those for me were the guiding forces that led me through and continue to.

28:12 Speaker 2 Do you wanna give any, any of them, uh-

28:15 Speaker 1 A shout-out?

28:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:15 Speaker 1 Names?

28:16 Speaker 2 S- their flowers.

28:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so.

28:17 Speaker 2 I, uh, 'cause it's nice to sometimes talk, you know, positively.

28:20 Speaker 1 Positively. Yeah.

28:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:21 Speaker 1 So I think, um, I'll go just in historical order. So the first was Rabbi Schneur Ketzel in New Haven.

28:27 Speaker 2 Okay.

28:27 Speaker 1 Which maybe you should have on. I think he's great.

28:29 Speaker 2 I've, I've asked him a number of times.

28:30 Speaker 1 Okay. Um, so he was one.

28:33 Speaker 2 Right.

28:33 Speaker 1 Um-

28:33 Speaker 2 But this, but this was when he was still teaching in yeshiva-

28:35 Speaker 1 In, in Siftah

28:36 Speaker 2 ... not the, not the

28:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:36 Speaker 2 Cool.

28:37 Speaker 1 It was shiurim in Siftah.

28:38 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

28:39 Speaker 1 Um, number two was Nachum Bukett in Baltimore.

28:42 Speaker 2 Yeah. Nice guy.

28:43 Speaker 1 And number three, I think it would be Chait Levin from... I did c- I did semikhah with him.

28:49 Speaker 2 In Australia.

28:49 Speaker 1 Online, so it was a little bit of a funny situation, but... And I'll tell you what each of them taught me specifically.

28:56 Speaker 2 Right.

28:56 Speaker 1 Again, I don't know if th-they would want this to represent them, but I'll tell you what they did for me.

29:00 Speaker 2 Right.

29:01 Speaker 1 Um, and I'll try to be a little bit vague and not try to quote them or speak for them. But what they did for me is, Rabbi Ketzel sort of helped me understand, like, the relationship, the Rebbe and Hasidus as a whole, and, and a- and, and in a way-

29:17 Speaker 2 He was your mashpia or your makat shiar?

29:18 Speaker 1 He was a makat shiar.

29:19 Speaker 2 Right.

29:19 Speaker 1 He used to farbreng with us a lot and hang out with us, and he really-

29:22 Speaker 2 Right

29:22 Speaker 1 ... I think till now his, his greatest push for, what I see at least, the idea of, of the Rebbe and Hasidus as being, um, not this, which I'm sure may, some may criticize, like this Kabbalah's all thing that you go to Lubavitch yeshivas, you have to do these things, but there's actual meaning it has to you, and it can contribute to your life as a person and help guide your life, and you don't just have to not checklist. Um, that's, I think, something he imparted on me then. But then after I continued my relationship with him, um, and then Nachum Bukett. Rabbi Bukett would be s- very similar in a way, but I think in a way heightening the sense of avodah as being a necessary part of life, and the idea, um, that, yeah, the idea of avodah being a necessary part of life and the only way sort of to survive and grow and be involved in life.

30:18 Speaker 2 And by avodah you mean what?

30:21 Speaker 1 I mean, um, one would be davening. Um, also, but in general, just the, like, the subject of being grub as not being a insult, but a fact, and being dissent is the fact that if a person's a grubyak, they won't be able to appreciate Hasidus or davening and things like that as a natural consequence-

30:42 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah

30:42 Speaker 1 ... of being a grubyak. So it's a very, I think-

30:45 Speaker 2 I mean, that, that's... I just, I wanna, I wanna pause for a second. I think that's a, a fascinating insight.

30:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:50 Speaker 2 The idea of it not being a insult, but a fact.

30:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's-

30:54 Speaker 2 It's, it, it, it, in other words, it, it, um, to, it, it, it- It kind of takes, not the edge off, but it takes the, the bias off-

31:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:04 Speaker 2 ... and the, the, the nagel off.

31:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:06 Speaker 2 Right? It's not a virtue signaling.

31:08 Speaker 1 Right.

31:08 Speaker 2 It's not a virtue signal where, where basically you're in, you're out.

31:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:13 Speaker 2 You know?

31:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:13 Speaker 2 'Cause you're an outcast.

31:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:15 Speaker 2 But it, it, it's, you know, if you're, if you're not, if you don't have an ear for music, you can't sing.

31:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:21 Speaker 2 It's not, it's not an insult.

31:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. It's a scientific fact almost-

31:25 Speaker 2 Right

31:25 Speaker 1 ... in Chassid- Chassidis language, right?

31:28 Speaker 2 Right.

31:28 Speaker 1 More-

31:28 Speaker 2 It's not, it's not about me and you, me versus you.

31:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

31:30 Speaker 2 It's a, it's an understanding that there's things in life that need a certain skill set or-

31:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:36 Speaker 2 ... or, or appreciation.

31:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, apprec- yeah.

31:38 Speaker 2 Yeah.

31:38 Speaker 1 Um, so that, and then I think, uh, Rabbi Levin, Rabbi Feitel Levin taught me what Halakhah is, that Halakhah, and all these things, I think what comes out is the realization that it's not just a Emunah, not the Chasidim, they don't need Emunah, but that learning Torah, Hiskashrus let's call it, a relationship with, with the Rebbe and Chassidis iden- Chassidic identity is about these are things are not, um, on the checklist. They're not things you do out of a sense of responsibility, but a sense of need, and a sense of, in a way, rational conclusion, that if you want poi- to go to from point A to point B in your life, these are the tools you need to have. That goes from the Rebbe, that goes to learning Chassidus, that goes to Shomer Rab Ossetav in a very practical way. Um, the same thing with eating.

32:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

32:29 Speaker 1 Like I'm saying, like that concept, again, this is a very, it's the be- it's just the easiest example to express this idea. Um, like if a person is a grobi, uh, is obsessed with food, that just s- in a way, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's something that I like to just use as a, as a classic example, then you will not be able to appreciate elokos as well because your, your obsession, your focus in life is looking downwards, right? The famous difference between a animal and a human, is a human is natural position, its physical position is to see the Shamayim, where an animal's position is to see the land. So that's, that's simply what it means to be magushim.

33:09 Speaker 2 Right.

33:09 Speaker 1 It's not an insult. It's not a take away your glasses or anything. It's just, it's the inability to appreciate the heaven, so to say.

33:16 Speaker 2 Right.

33:16 Speaker 1 Again, these are my words on my understanding of this journey.

33:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

33:20 Speaker 1 Um, and then going to, um, Feitel Levin is the structure of Halakhah, like how he was able to, like from a g- a posek, whatever, completely create a perfect formula in which Halakhah, the way we know it, comes about, and the whole system of Halakhah that's also not hocus pocus. You get a heter from a rav who... But that there's an actual-

33:42 Speaker 2 Right

33:42 Speaker 1 ... structure and rational system-

33:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

33:45 Speaker 1 ... that our life, um, runs off.

33:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

33:48 Speaker 1 So these three people for me, sometimes it's in an active way, meaning I could go to them and complain. I'd say, um, could go to them and complain and be hurt and whatever, and be understood. But even in a passive way, seeing that whatever else I'm seeing, I ca- I can dismiss in a certain way. I don't need to think that that i- that represents the totality of being a Lubavitcher.

34:14 Speaker 2 Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I, I don't, I've heard of them. I've heard good things about them, so I, I, I'm not, I'm not speaking to them 'cause I never met them myself. But I, the idea that you're sharing here is to me a very powerful idea, which is that, um, at least in your case, right? So, you know, we don't need to project further and further and, and make... But I think, I think there is a lot to be learned from it, is there's something very powerful about, about sharing, the, the, the common denominator between all of them, like you're describing, is an understanding that what I'm teaching is much larger than me and you.

34:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:56 Speaker 2 And it will survive me and you.

34:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:59 Speaker 2 This isn't about, like you said, the mashpia who couldn't forbearing with the glasses staring, with the, with the Bachur staring through these modern glasses. What I'm t- if, if what I'm talking about is big, why do I even notice the glasses? Like, and even if I notice them, like I'm not scared of them. Nothing-

35:17 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:17 Speaker 2 ... no- nothing's gonna happen to these ideas-

35:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:20 Speaker 2 ... right? And these truths because someone's wearing funky glasses.

35:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:24 Speaker 2 It's not... Right? And, and you say, well, you know, the Dvar Pashut. It's not just Dvar Pashut because if we wanna be fair, at the end of the day, an educator is also a human being.

35:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:34 Speaker 2 Right? An educator has made a choice to live their life teaching this thing. They have, you know, they have to take both what they're teaching seriously and also their role seriously.

35:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:43 Speaker 2 I understand that. Like, and it's, it's, it's sometimes hard to separate like your role from what you're teaching.

35:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:51 Speaker 2 Right? And yeah, I think this idea of like, 'cause when, whenever you, whenever you're talking to someone younger than you or someone different than you, you know, you're automatically kind of on the defensive.

36:09 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

36:09 Speaker 2 Right? Where like what's going to happen when I'm not here and, you know, this guy's, this guy is running his own life, or this guy is on, out on his own, or this guy's in charge, let's say. Right? And what is, you know, you're, because it's different, because it's unknown, there's this fear factor.

36:29 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

36:29 Speaker 2 And obviously as you go bigger, like not just individual to individual, but generation to generation, that fear becomes even larger. Like look at the younger generation and look at the pants that they're wearing, and look at the skirts that they're wearing, and look, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen? These people are, you know... Right?

36:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:47 Speaker 2 Right?

36:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

36:47 Speaker 2 It, it, it's all f- it gets scary, scary, scary. And at the end of the day, the only answer that I can, that I've ever heard that makes any sense is along the lines of what you're describing, which is what we're talking about here is much larger than any of us.

37:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:02 Speaker 2 Right? You're talking about Rabbeim, you're talking about Chassidus, you're talking about Halakhah, you're talking about Avodas Hashem. These things are way bigger than any of this. You really think it's contained in the specific framework that you have figured out?

37:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

37:15 Speaker 2 Right?

37:15 Speaker 1 So no, it's an interesting thing, and I think for a while, especially as I- Explored more of the world of Halakha quite intensely, and still do somewhat. Um, I became a little bit obsessed, um, for a time, not anymore, that the only answer in a certain way, meaning to say, this is what I, my conclusion was and somewhat is, is that in order to demand a certain value from someone, meaning in order to, to, I don't know, I wanna use a word like legislate something towards someone, you need to have a source for it, which the world became a little bit obsessed with now. Like, what's your macher? Where are you getting that from?

37:52 Speaker 2 Right.

37:53 Speaker 1 Um, so I sort of went down that track, that there needs to be a basis for everything, and what I've learned is, is that almost anything we do in Yiddishkeit, even if as Hasidim, we look at it in more of the Soid level in the Yiddish, almost any, almost any nuance in Yiddishkeit is founded in Halakha.

38:09 Speaker 2 Right.

38:09 Speaker 1 So it could be, uh, יש מחמיר and יש נוהג and things like that. Almost any form of, of, uh, nuance in Judaism that goes beyond the basic definition of the 613 mitzvahs are based in Halakha. So for me, that became almost the guiding force, is that if it's not in Halakha sort of, or not, let's say a takanah of the Rebbe, and I wrote this whole thing down, um, that or if it's not a takanah of the Rebbe, um, then it really doesn't matter what they say, so to say.

38:38 Speaker 2 Hmm. Well, when did you write this down? When you were a bachur?

38:40 Speaker 1 I wrote this... No, I wr- I wrote this down after. I wrote this down when I was an alter bachur. Um, when I was-

38:45 Speaker 2 But not, but not yet married?

38:46 Speaker 1 No.

38:47 Speaker 2 Okay. So we have to get back to that then.

38:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

38:49 Speaker 2 So-

38:49 Speaker 1 So that, and that became, so like that point, but I think now, in a very beautiful and positive way, now I, I've become much more in tuned with and in pursuit of also the virtue, the goodness of, uh, not just the limit of Hasidism in terms of perspective, but the minhaguei, minhagim of Hasidim-

39:11 Speaker 2 Hmm

39:11 Speaker 1 ... and the lifestyle of Hasidim, and how it too is a way to get to point A to point B in someone's Avodas Hashem or thank God in raising a family.

39:23 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, I think one of the earliest sefarim that the Rebbe worked on or, or commissioned was Sefer Minhagim.

39:28 Speaker 1 Right.

39:28 Speaker 2 I think Rabbi Groner was, uh, asked to do that. I, I don't know the full history, but I think that was the first time that minhagim were codified.

39:36 Speaker 1 Right.

39:36 Speaker 2 And I think some people look at it, you know, like, "Okay, so, so an- another list of rules."

39:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

39:41 Speaker 2 You know, Lubavitch is becoming more rule-based, and I don't s- I, I don't, I don't think that has to, it has to be seen that way. I don't know that it's wrong to say that that's what it is, but I don't think it has to be seen that way. I think it's like what you're saying. There's, there's a way of life that, that, there's a way of life that has, that has certain things that are real and certain things that are kind of added onto it.

40:04 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

40:04 Speaker 2 And it's good to know what's what.

40:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

40:06 Speaker 2 It's good to know what's what, and, and it, it's, it's not so much, it's not so much about making everybody follow, follow the rules, but as much as it's giving people an understanding of, of what this path is.

40:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I do think, and that's, so I've even come to appreciate sometimes to sort of encourage and pursue and demand even Lubavitch minhagim, but there needs, it needs to be, there needs to be some form of context, basis-

40:35 Speaker 2 Right

40:35 Speaker 1 ... um, for it.

40:36 Speaker 2 Right.

40:37 Speaker 1 So there's a book that came out now, um, it talked about like the Rebbe's directive sort of. It's like 1,000 pages of like one-liners that the Rebbe once told someone to-

40:46 Speaker 2 Terrible. It's terrible

40:47 Speaker 1 So right. So that's how I feel too. So but if the Rebbe commissioned Sefer Minhagim-

40:51 Speaker 2 Right

40:51 Speaker 1 ... as you sort of described, then that would be a b- a perfect example-

40:54 Speaker 2 Right

40:54 Speaker 1 ... of understanding that, that, I don't know if this is a correct example, that Chabad doesn't use black pepper on Pesach. I don't know if that's in Sefer Minhagim, but I just-

41:02 Speaker 2 No

41:02 Speaker 1 ... there's certain things that are not about Right

41:05 Speaker 2 ... um, did as is described in Sefer-

41:21 Speaker 1 Right

41:21 Speaker 2 ... uh, Minhagim. And it's still only a minhag. It's not Halakha.

41:24 Speaker 1 No, but I do think if someone wants to live a Lubavitch life, that's what they should be doing.

41:27 Speaker 2 Right. Right. No, I'm saying it's good to know what's what.

41:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

41:30 Speaker 2 Like this idea that, this idea that if you untangle this, this, this kind of spool of mixed-up yarn-

41:37 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:37 Speaker 2 ... with all different colors, if you untangle it, somehow the thing's gonna fall apart.

41:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:41 Speaker 2 To me, it's like I don't understand.

41:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:43 Speaker 2 Like do you, do you trust these things are real or not?

41:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, absolutely.

41:45 Speaker 2 If they're real, then you can untangle it all-

41:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:48 Speaker 2 ... and learn this is Halakha, this is minhag.

41:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:50 Speaker 2 This is, this is God knows what.

41:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:52 Speaker 2 Right? This is hearsay. And, and you, if you wanna do it, gezunt a heil, but, but know what's what.

41:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:57 Speaker 2 Know what's what, and so what's the point? The point is that un- until you know what's what, then it's all about just following along.

42:07 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

42:07 Speaker 2 Right? But the second that there's a question, if you don't know what's what, you don't have the tools to, to get to an answer.

42:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:13 Speaker 2 And that's when thing, that's when things fall apart.

42:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:16 Speaker 2 Right? And so what you've d- been describing about that chinuch and I... I, uh, the point is not that this is what chinuch has to be or that this is what their ideas meant to everyone in the class, but in your story, there's a powerful example of, you know, someone who could have easily been pushed away by negativity and, and, and a sense of, um, you know, "This isn't my place", unbelonging, whatever the opposite of belonging is, right? And instead, these people show to, showed you that there's room for you too. The reason there's room for you is because this, this, this space is so freaking large.

42:51 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

42:51 Speaker 2 Of course there's room for you, right?

42:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:53 Speaker 2 And it belongs to you as well.

42:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:54 Speaker 2 Make of it as you, as you can and as you wish, knowing what you know.

42:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, absolutely.

43:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, so you, you, so you're, so we, we... I know, I know I've kind of-

43:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:06 Speaker 2 ... taken you around-

43:07 Speaker 1 I remember where-

43:07 Speaker 2 I know I've taken you around in circles.

43:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:09 Speaker 2 I apologize for that. Maybe it's just the morning. But, um, but, but you, you were, you've been describing this kind of opening awareness as you're finishing off the kind of system of yeshiva-

43:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

43:22 Speaker 2 ... that like, "Okay, maybe I am an artist."

43:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:24 Speaker 2 "Maybe I should take this seriously." Now you're an alter bachur, you're kind of floating in whatever-

43:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:29 Speaker 2 ... whatever you wanna call 770 at that time of your life.

43:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

43:34 Speaker 2 That, that, that space.

43:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:36 Speaker 2 So describe that.

43:37 Speaker 1 What a crazy space. Um, so first of all, I'm, I'm proud to say I'm still-

43:40 Speaker 2 But talk about, talk about heads without, with heads without legs, right?

43:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. But I, I, I wanna stress this, if any bachurim are listening, or parents of bachurim, and this is, this is a perfect example of the, what I was talking about before, of bachurim these days sort of, and I'm not, I'm not much older than bachurim these days, is that I didn't have any social media, um, until I was complete- finished with smicha year, so to say.

44:04 Speaker 2 Right.

44:05 Speaker 1 Um-

44:06 Speaker 2 Because it didn't exist, really.

44:07 Speaker 1 No, it, it 100% didn't exist.

44:08 Speaker 2 It didn't exist.

44:09 Speaker 1 All, all of my... many of my friends did, and things like that.

44:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

44:11 Speaker 1 My point is, is that idea of having a personality and being completely invested in bachur life and yeshiva life, which I think is the greatest gift, um, to a child, even though it is hard and there does need to be a lot of adjustments and things like that, but it is essential. Like, you know those Marines and things like that that are 65 years old and they still have certain skills?

44:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:34 Speaker 1 They still have a certain sense of identity and confidence in themself and their abilities because 50 years ago they achieved something. I do think being fully participating in yeshiva life for those short six years with no smartphone and no social media is not un- is essential, um, to, to be able to grow and be involved in that life. And I did not have any social media until I was, um, after sort of the system, in shidduchim maybe, um, and then I opened the social media, it's called M Treidel Art, and I started posting my drawings from yeshiva for the past six years.

45:17 Speaker 2 Was it... One second. So it was a conscious choice not to have social media as a bachur?

45:21 Speaker 1 It wasn't, it wasn't even a, a thing.

45:23 Speaker 2 Or it wasn't a thought?

45:23 Speaker 1 It wasn't a thought.

45:24 Speaker 2 'Cause you were busy in yeshiva.

45:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

45:25 Speaker 2 You hadn't decided I'm going to-

45:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

45:27 Speaker 2 ... wait till later.

45:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:28 Speaker 2 It was like you, you... Okay.

45:29 Speaker 1 There was no, there was no space for it.

45:30 Speaker 2 So you're saying what... Your comment now is more in retrospect.

45:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, in retrospect, and in encouragement, and highlighting the fact.

45:36 Speaker 2 Right.

45:36 Speaker 1 And in a way also trying to continuously-

45:39 Speaker 2 Right

45:39 Speaker 1 ... go between the sense of, um, Chasidische intensity in full throttle-

45:45 Speaker 2 Right

45:45 Speaker 1 ... and at the same time to recognize within that, yes, there can be problems, but that doesn't mean that, that the values and the concepts itself are flawed.

45:54 Speaker 2 Right.

45:55 Speaker 1 And that's what I really wanna overemphasize.

45:57 Speaker 2 Right.

45:58 Speaker 1 Um, because that's how I live my life basically, overemphasizing that point.

46:03 Speaker 2 Right.

46:03 Speaker 1 Um, so I open the social media, I post my drawings, and people are very excited by it. Could be it's just my cousins, people from shul, um, from the chabad house, and things like that.

46:13 Speaker 2 You're living in Montreal at this point?

46:15 Speaker 1 So this point, actually I just... I was in, I finished in LA for two years. I did two years.

46:20 Speaker 2 I was also in LA.

46:20 Speaker 1 Um, I was in the Siftah. In Siftah, yeah.

46:22 Speaker 2 I was in be- I was in south.

46:24 Speaker 1 Where Chassidim bachurim. Um, and then I was there for two years, and then after, then I was in Minot for three months in the summer, and then I was sort of starting shidduchim after Tishrei. And I think, I think it was in Minot at the end, that's when I sort of started to create my own path, so to say.

46:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

46:43 Speaker 1 So that's when I opened, uh, social media, um, and started posting these drawings, and people just found them very, like, fascinating. And they, they didn't expect to see that-

46:54 Speaker 2 Right

46:54 Speaker 1 ... from me. Um, and, and that sort of, that fueled me to continue to try new things, and people, like, commented, and it just became like a thing that I did in the evenings or whatever.

47:04 Speaker 2 Right.

47:05 Speaker 1 And people really liked it, and I just sort of kept going. And so if you asked, going back to the question is how does somebody become so involved as an artist as I am currently, it sort of evolved with these so-social media, being encouraged to do it. And I spoke to someone who told me about this artist that my art looks like, and I checked out that artist, and I started to get what they were using and pursuing that, but it was all-

47:26 Speaker 2 So you never went to art school?

47:27 Speaker 1 No, I did not. I went to a place in Manhattan for, like, a month. Uh, like a-

47:33 Speaker 2 Yeah

47:33 Speaker 1 ... not a, a university, but just had like art classes. It's called the New York School of Arts.

47:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

47:38 Speaker 1 Um, but I, I found and I continue to find that if I trial and error in learning and trying to figure it out myself is more enjoyable, and I would be able to-

47:47 Speaker 2 Mm

47:47 Speaker 1 ... um, learn, um, in a way more quickly.

47:51 Speaker 2 So to this point, your art is completely organic, in that sense.

47:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely.

47:55 Speaker 2 I mean, obviously you're, you're learning online and-

47:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

47:57 Speaker 2 ... seeing what other people, what they do-

47:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

47:59 Speaker 2 ... and so on. But so you... have you ever had, like... Did you ever at that point have, like, a mentor outside the-

48:05 Speaker 1 So I did, I-

48:05 Speaker 2 Going back to the story of Asher Lev, did you have, like, a-

48:08 Speaker 1 So I went to-

48:09 Speaker 2 ... a Levovitch mentor?

48:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. So to... What's his name? Michael Muchnick. I was in his-

48:13 Speaker 2 But he's a non-Levovitcher.

48:13 Speaker 1 You're saying non-Levovitcher?

48:14 Speaker 2 Yeah.

48:15 Speaker 1 Um, not really.

48:17 Speaker 2 So-

48:17 Speaker 1 Just follow a lot of people on social media.

48:19 Speaker 2 So talk about Michael Muchnick.

48:20 Speaker 1 Uh-

48:20 Speaker 2 He's a good guy.

48:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he... So I was his, uh, apprentice or whatever for, like, two months.

48:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

48:26 Speaker 1 Just hanging out with him in his studios in the afternoon, asking questions.

48:29 Speaker 2 He was already doing the mosaics probably at that point, right?

48:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

48:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

48:33 Speaker 1 He's doing-

48:33 Speaker 2 'Cause, 'cause you used to paint more, I think.

48:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, no. So he was doing... Yeah, no. So I was helping him with certain things, like filling in-

48:38 Speaker 2 Right

48:38 Speaker 1 ... like being an assistant a way, in a way.

48:40 Speaker 2 Right.

48:40 Speaker 1 Um, so that was all part of that evolution, sort of, of seeing that I don't just draw, but I... Being an artist is, is something that's a part of me, and it is something that I really want to pursue.

48:55 Speaker 2 But his art, his art, even though I think his paintings back in the day are, are a lot more fantastical and-

49:00 Speaker 1 Yeah

49:00 Speaker 2 ... and, and, and... But they're still very Jewish.

49:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah.

49:04 Speaker 2 Um-

49:04 Speaker 1 No, it's... Talking-

49:05 Speaker 2 You never, you never felt that you had to go down that route of, like, if I wanna be a Hasidic artist, I have to paint-

49:13 Speaker 1 No

49:13 Speaker 2 ... you know, disassoci-

49:14 Speaker 1 This is... No, because-

49:14 Speaker 2 ... disassociated heads with shtreimel or whatever.

49:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. No. So no, I don't think so, meaning there was times when I had a foot in that Judaic market, but that was simply 'cause I made a piece that was Judaic, and people liked it very much, and it sold well, but I never placed myself in, excuse me, um, in a, in a Hasidic Judaic art world or art market. And I think it goes back to this conversation that we're having, is that I never felt a sense, once I had this discovery, the sense that being a Hasid and pursuing my art, that sort of aesthetic, which I think we need to elaborate on, that es- that aesthetic, imaginary, um, expectation of what it means, um, really existed. So for me, being an artist was just being an artist, like, like being an artist. So, like, I didn't have that expectation for myself to place myself in a certain place in the community.

50:10 Speaker 2 Interesting. Interesting.

50:11 Speaker 1 Because I didn't look, and I don't look at values as being these communal expectations. But I do think it's unfair in the, for the sake of this conversation to sort of so strongly assume that that needs to be, that we need to assume, um, that to be an artist, um, you need to be a rabbi artist, so to say. Meaning why is that... I, I, I understand it in terms of the culture and-

50:39 Speaker 2 I'm not talking about anybody else

50:39 Speaker 1 ... in general.

50:40 Speaker 2 We're talk- we're talking, we're talking y- we're talking your story. I don't know-

50:43 Speaker 1 So my point is-

50:43 Speaker 2 ... asking you about those valuations

50:43 Speaker 1 ... I don't, so I don't, I don't even see the question, and I, I, and you actually, you sent it to me, and I was really thinking about it.

50:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:49 Speaker 1 And I, I don't think I understand it in terms of like totally the street, so to say, but in terms of a value, a way of life, I don't see any, um, reality where being an artist needs to be in the context of being a Judaic artist. So I'm making, painting Menores or something like that.

51:10 Speaker 2 Hmm. But, uh, you said a line earlier, and I, I just wanna make sure I understand. You're saying the reason that you didn't feel that way is because you didn't feel that that's, that you needed to fit in that way.

51:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:25 Speaker 2 Like to be a Chasidishid, you don't need to paint Chassidim necessarily.

51:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

51:30 Speaker 2 Right? And that goes back to we were talking earlier, you know, that, that, that question of conformity, which really is more a question of kind of sh- um, like, like narrowing and keeping everything within a certain line. If you don't, if, if, if, like, if your guidelines are Halacha and, and, um, and, and larger ideas of Halacha and Avodah Hashem, and I don't know what else you were talking about-

51:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

51:58 Speaker 2 ... right? Well, you could ask yourself a question, "Is there anything in my paintings that go ag- that goes against those-

52:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:04 Speaker 2 ... guidelines?" And if the answer is no-

52:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:06 Speaker 2 ... I don't need to paint-

52:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:07 Speaker 2 ... Pinchamsov or whatever.

52:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, meaning if someone's in real estate and they're building a-

52:12 Speaker 2 Right

52:12 Speaker 1 ... building, they're not making the building look like the Luchas.

52:14 Speaker 2 Menorah. Yeah.

52:15 Speaker 1 Or the Menorah.

52:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I, I, I actually had that very thought when I was thinking about the conversation we're going to have. I was like, "Why is it that when it comes to making money, you know, that the u- understanding of course is to be a Chasidish businessman is that you give tzedakah afterwards, is that you, you don't get-

52:34 Speaker 1 Yeshev

52:34 Speaker 2 ... overly obsessed with it."

52:36 Speaker 1 Hmm.

52:36 Speaker 2 Um, which, you know, y- you don't get overly obsessed with it. You s- keep your priorities in check. Uh, you know, the Philadelphia used to speak about this at length. It's very interesting how, how it's such a focus in the am- in, in some, in like the few years of his mamarim to, to be honest in your business dealings, in mamarim-

52:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:54 Speaker 2 ... not in letters.

52:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

52:54 Speaker 2 Like in, in these high Chasidic discourses, uh, like Pasuk Gani.

52:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:58 Speaker 2 But Tzius Hamatira-

53:00 Speaker 1 Yeah

53:00 Speaker 2 ... and, and, and not screwing people over.

53:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:02 Speaker 2 Like Pasuk Gani up here.

53:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:04 Speaker 2 That, that's what it's about, right? And, and but in business, it's kind of like, yeah, you could sell, you could sell socks, you could sell, you could sell lingerie. You could sell whatever you want, as long as it's kosher.

53:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:14 Speaker 2 And then with art, suddenly we get very, very like particular and-

53:19 Speaker 1 Yeah

53:19 Speaker 2 ... almost like nervous about it.

53:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:21 Speaker 2 What, what, why do you think that is?

53:24 Speaker 1 So it's a good question because at the end of the day, and this is what I was saying before about art being a creative person versus being just a craft, so that's a little bit, in a way, uh, unfair to completely compare the two to regular business.

53:40 Speaker 2 Hmm.

53:40 Speaker 1 Um, because at the end of the day, and I do believe it, and I, I would, um, say that I think the Rebbe sort of believed that and Rebbeim in general, which I don't want to be a, uh, a scholar in the Rebbe's opinion in art, um, that art is still a expression, meaning it is a voice inside the person-

54:00 Speaker 2 Right

54:00 Speaker 1 ... um, that is coming out for everybody to see, a, a certain element of that. So the ex- the, the expectation is, is that your y- your only expression should be, um, Judaica. I don't-- The truth is I don't actually I don't actually know, but I do think that's somewhat the... I would imagine that our minds go there, something of that, of that nature.

54:26 Speaker 2 It was interesting because a few months ago, um, a friend of mine, Dovid Margolin, put out an article on chabad.org about, um, the Rebbe and art.

54:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

54:35 Speaker 2 And he spoke about Baruch Nachshon and, um, who I had the honor of meeting f- in his house and his gallery. I don't know if you ever went to his-

54:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

54:44 Speaker 2 ... hi- his gallery was his living room, bedroom.

54:46 Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah.

54:48 Speaker 2 Like, uh, a very, very special guy. Um, and I think he also sp- wrote about, uh, Hendel Lieberman, um, and, uh, probably also Zalman Kleiman.

54:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

54:58 Speaker 2 Those are usually the three people that are spoken about.

55:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

55:01 Speaker 2 Um, you know-

55:03 Speaker 1 But there are others.

55:04 Speaker 2 Of course. Of course. But without going, without-

55:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

55:07 Speaker 2 I think that's what the article is about because I think the Rebbe's interactions with them were very, were, were more robust, let's say.

55:12 Speaker 1 No, there are others.

55:13 Speaker 2 Okay. So you'll, you'll elaborate. But what I found striking about it was is like you're taking the idea, the, you know, the idea of the Rebbe encouraging this Jewish art and pushing them to make art that they wouldn't have made otherwise, but where, where do we go from here? Like, all these people are gone. Like we're, we're, we're, we're past these people.

55:33 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

55:34 Speaker 2 Like, like the, the, the, the art, uh, you know, art is always pushing the boundaries and pushing ahead and expressing new ideas. If, if, if we are now going to just kind of keep on expressing those same ideas, we've lost something.

55:52 Speaker 1 More than that, they're their ideas.

55:54 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

55:55 Speaker 1 We're copying their ideas.

55:56 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And, and so it's like, it's like, yeah, so it, it, in many ways it becomes a, a, a, a kind of- ... snapshot of the larger question of, you know, the Rebbe had these ideas and these guidelines and these, or, you know, th- th- this vision of Jewish art, but he's not here anymore. He's not going to tell you about your art-

56:19 Speaker 1 Right

56:19 Speaker 2 ... specifically.

56:21 Speaker 1 Right.

56:21 Speaker 2 Right? So are you going to basically come back to the safe zone of just painting like those people using the kind of the permission slip that they have? Or are you going to say, "Here are the ideas that I see being articul- like the guidelines and the ideas and the vision, the general framework that's articulated, now I'm going to see how I fit into this one way or another"?

56:45 Speaker 1 Right.

56:46 Speaker 2 Right? Um-

56:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:48 Speaker 2 I th- I, I think, I th- I think that's... I, I think, I think ultimately that becomes a fundamental question of our time.

56:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. It d- it does. I'm saying there is a, a concept in the art world of sort of art representing the time that art is. And again, you find that, and I do think this is an interesting point, even parenthet- uh, of even parenthetically, is that when modern art was becoming a thing in America and the rest of the world, it was a big, it was a big tumult. It was a big tumult that we're starting to see, um, the world, that our times are starting to look at the world not in a literal way.

57:25 Speaker 2 Right. Post-modern.

57:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. So my point is, is that art should represent m- in a, in its natural meaning-

57:34 Speaker 2 Right

57:34 Speaker 1 ... um, represent something of the times that it's being made-

57:38 Speaker 2 Right

57:38 Speaker 1 ... versus simply depicting another painting or another time. So, and I do think, especially in some of my current stuff, there is a very, very, um, personal and deep, uh, um, relationship with the times or myself or things, um, that I do try to depict. Meaning to say is that there's still a j- a, a inner personal deep journey with the art, meaning that there is something there. There's something there that's beyond just depicting a moment in time-

58:15 Speaker 2 Mm

58:15 Speaker 1 ... in a very well way that can, um, be something to read into. So maybe therefore, the sticking to those versions of art is safe. Maybe that's all people know how to do. Um, yeah. So I'm not... Yeah.

58:34 Speaker 2 Look, the, the, the, the qu- the question ultimately becomes very straightforward the way you're describing it, that, you know, Lubavitcher painting art today is painting art, is, is painting in a time post-Goldin Thomas.

58:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:49 Speaker 2 Right? What does that art look like?

58:51 Speaker 1 Right.

58:52 Speaker 2 What does that art look like?

58:53 Speaker 1 Right.

58:53 Speaker 2 You know, is it going to be honest to the questions that you have today?

58:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:58 Speaker 2 Or is it going to make believe, like, like, you know, we could paint like we did 40 years ago?

59:04 Speaker 1 Right.

59:05 Speaker 2 And that's obviously not just a question about art. That's a question about life, but art is supposed to be-

59:10 Speaker 1 Represent

59:10 Speaker 2 ... a representation-

59:11 Speaker 1 Yeah

59:11 Speaker 2 ... of life, right? And the artist is supposed to be the person who asks questions in a way that gets people thinking, you know, in a way that only an artist can.

59:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think that's, that's spot on, and I do think that those Chassidim very beautifully did represent their time that they were in.

59:29 Speaker 2 Right.

59:30 Speaker 1 And even the struggles, you know, Zalman Kleiman has those paintings of, uh, like Gehenna and things like that, meaning even their fears and their terror, um, was depicted, but it was depicted in their visualization and the, in their, the way they saw the world. Like the Chassidim then, which probably should be the case now, had like had zero haircuts with payos ev- um, payos on the side and ev- like they have... And I'll say this, is that I'll give, uh, another two shout-outs is my grandparents' house. They have a lot of Zalman Kleiman paintings. I believe my Uncle Arik, who to me represents in a very wild way a patron of the arts, l'shmah, l'shmah, meaning for the art itself, and he bought paintings from... Before these things were popular, probably should just, uh-

1:00:16 Speaker 2 Straight from Zalman.

1:00:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's, uh, I don't know the exact history, so straight from him or from Hendel or from other artists.

1:00:21 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:00:22 Speaker 1 And he still has in his house all these items of art that represent a certain reality of whoever made them.

1:00:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:31 Speaker 1 Um-

1:00:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, Hendel Lieberman's, uh, his Tzadkas painting.

1:00:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:35 Speaker 2 Uh, that's a statement-

1:00:36 Speaker 1 I th- I personally like, I'm a bigger fan of Hendel than Zalman. I think his-

1:00:39 Speaker 2 That's my great uncle, so I like him.

1:00:40 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:00:41 Speaker 2 So a good friend of mine.

1:00:41 Speaker 1 I, I, I think his stuff is incredible, and even his Chassidim, like you feel like you're in the... Whatever. I feel like his stuff is amazing.

1:00:50 Speaker 2 Well, he went, he went through... He, I think his paintings convey a-

1:00:53 Speaker 1 Exactly

1:00:54 Speaker 2 ... a certain, a certain sadness and tragedy that he lived through.

1:00:56 Speaker 1 Exactly. And also, yeah, so-

1:00:58 Speaker 2 His, his people are all very, there's, th- there's-

1:01:02 Speaker 1 But there's a certain gaggum, meaning there's a certain sense of hope and focus of the moment. Like he has like the learning f- the learning of Sama Flo.

1:01:11 Speaker 2 I never saw that.

1:01:11 Speaker 1 He has a few, and learning Chassidis, all these paintings which some of them I've been inspiration for me.

1:01:17 Speaker 2 Really?

1:01:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:17 Speaker 2 So you see, you see Hendel as a, as an inspiration for you?

1:01:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I don't really r- read so much or think, but like his imaging.

1:01:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:01:24 Speaker 1 Um, and that's for me, it's my point that he's representing his times. He has his individual voice, and what happens now is, again, we're assuming these things.

1:01:32 Speaker 2 Sure.

1:01:33 Speaker 1 We're assuming that this is the way the classic Lubavitch artist would go, is to then depict, um, those paintings again because those were the ones that were sort of accepted.

1:01:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:44 Speaker 1 And I think the argument that being made, that's being made now is, the conversation is, is, uh, why not sort of depict Lubavitch now?

1:01:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:54 Speaker 1 Or meaning at least the Lubavitcher, the individual artist who identifies as Lubavitcher-

1:01:58 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:58 Speaker 1 ... now. Um-

1:01:59 Speaker 2 I mean, Hendel Lieberman, everybody knows this at this point-

1:02:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:03 Speaker 2 ... was, was in and out of Lubavitch for many years.

1:02:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:02:05 Speaker 2 Right? Especially when he was younger.

1:02:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, so-

1:02:07 Speaker 2 Right?

1:02:07 Speaker 1 Salvador Dali was a famous artist with a big mustache.

1:02:10 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:02:10 Speaker 1 Let's say Hendel in Paris-

1:02:12 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

1:02:13 Speaker 1 ... had a big, uh, gingy mustache.

1:02:15 Speaker 2 Oh, he was trying to imitate him.

1:02:16 Speaker 1 Like Salvador Dali.

1:02:17 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:02:18 Speaker 1 That's what I heard.

1:02:18 Speaker 2 That's fas- that's fascinating. Well, he was in and out, um- Like, it was, it was touch and go.

1:02:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he's another ex- person who really represents a lot for me.

1:02:28 Speaker 2 Right. Oh, you're saying his life story as well?

1:02:29 Speaker 1 I don't know, I don't know the details of it.

1:02:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. Just his-

1:02:31 Speaker 1 But the concept

1:02:31 Speaker 2 ... he, he's my great-great-uncle.

1:02:33 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:02:33 Speaker 2 And, and, and I can't, I can't get to the bottom of it.

1:02:36 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:36 Speaker 2 Like, people, you know, I think it's out of respect.

1:02:38 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:38 Speaker 2 You know, he also didn't have kids.

1:02:40 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:40 Speaker 2 Well, he had, he actually had kids who were-

1:02:42 Speaker 1 Right

1:02:42 Speaker 2 ... killed in the war.

1:02:42 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:43 Speaker 2 And, and so, but he didn't ever, he didn't have any heirs or, you know, descendants living, so I think people feel like it's not for them to, to talk about.

1:02:52 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:53 Speaker 2 But everybody does know that he was in and out, right?

1:02:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:56 Speaker 2 And he struggled with what you're describing, I imagine-

1:02:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:58 Speaker 2 ... which is I, I'm an artist. Um, I love to, I love to, I love to draw. I love to, I love to paint. I don't know how it started exactly.

1:03:06 Speaker 1 I'm saying it's mu- more than that. The one thing I wanna emphasize is that it is more than that.

1:03:10 Speaker 2 It-

1:03:10 Speaker 1 It is, meaning it's, it's a person in the context of his-

1:03:14 Speaker 2 You're saying his, his, his expression, his, his-

1:03:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I was saying his-

1:03:17 Speaker 2 ... what they call disposition

1:03:18 Speaker 1 ... yeah, his disposition, his way, his-

1:03:20 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:20 Speaker 1 ... natural way of living.

1:03:22 Speaker 2 I mean, really even later on in life when he was by the Erev Shabbat ring and then you see him conduct the-

1:03:26 Speaker 1 Exactly

1:03:27 Speaker 2 ... I mean, does, is, does that look to you like a regular guy? I mean, why isn't, uh, who else did it? Zusha of Anipoli. I mean, uh, he was also a colorful character. Maybe he didn't paint, but he had his own kind of, he had his own kind of way. Yeah. I mean, I think artists-

1:03:43 Speaker 1 The one second with Zusha, I don't think he did like an orchestra.

1:03:46 Speaker 2 No.

1:03:46 Speaker 1 He was more like a Hasid.

1:03:47 Speaker 2 No. Right. But it's-

1:03:48 Speaker 1 Whereas Hendl was literally like he's-