Ep. 40 // "May We See The Rebbe" w/ Mrs. Tzivia Jacobson

00:00 Speaker 1 Every single night when we went to sleep, my mother would put us to sleep with a story, and then with bracha. The zeide will be well. And finally, it is, the Rebbe says, "Hashem, that Rebbe, that Hashem should help us should see the Rebbe." Now, we had about as much chance to see a Rebbe, the Rebbe, as, um, you going to Pluto, which isn't a, a, a planet anymore. So it was absolutely... And you're wondering, like, what was she thinking?

00:39 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Benji Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All right, so we are here this afternoon with Mrs. Jacobson, Mrs. Tuvia Jacobson, matriarch-

01:06 Speaker 1 Hi, I'm Tuvia.

01:07 Speaker 2 Hi, I'm Tuvia Jacobson, matriarch, matriarch of the Jacobson family. And, uh, thank you very much for coming on. And let me-

01:17 Speaker 1 Thank you for having me.

01:19 Speaker 2 My pleasure. My absolute pleasure. So let's, let's begin a little bit with the, with, with the background, with the backdrop. Where, where do you come from? Who's your family? How did it all begin?

01:34 Speaker 1 Okay. So, uh, I was born in Georgia, Kutaisi, Georgia, Gruzia. That's not Georgia, America. It's Russia. And my parents both were, uh, my father family became Lubavitcher, I think, earlier. And my mother's father, who was a shochet, uh, became also Lubavitcher. So we were a Chabad family when... I was born into a Chabad family. And, um-

02:03 Speaker 2 What was their name?

02:04 Speaker 1 I was brought up... Yeah, go ahead.

02:05 Speaker 2 What was their name?

02:07 Speaker 1 Uh, Lipsker.

02:08 Speaker 2 Lipsker, yeah.

02:09 Speaker 1 My father was Yakov. My mother was Luba Alta Toda. To- Teibel, they called her.

02:15 Speaker 2 Right.

02:16 Speaker 1 Um, what was interesting is the reason they had, uh, landed in, uh, Gruzia is because his brother-- Oh, they came from Poltava. His brother was in Georgia, in Gruzia, and he called-- He wrote them that it's easier to be frum there.

02:33 Speaker 2 Mm.

02:33 Speaker 1 Uh, Stalin did not crack down on Georgia as much as he did in the, uh, center of, uh, Russia. The whole thing was called Russia. There was no... Now it's all separated, different countries. But at that time, they ruled all of Russia, all of, all the small countries. And so my parents moved there after they got married, and I was born in Kutaisi in Georgia. Uh, we were brought up just like in America, as Hasidim. Of course, there it was dangerous. My mother, you know, covered her hair always, but it couldn't be like a tichel or... They didn't have a sheitel, so she wore a fancy little beret. She looked very glamorous, and nobody questioned that she was covering her hair, because you had to explain everything. You couldn't just observe Yiddishkeit there freely. But at home, we only spoke Yiddish, and we learned just like at, at the age of three, as soon as we could talk, we could made brachot and, uh, learned alef beis. I learned, uh, to read by, by the time I was three years old, I was learning to daven.

03:43 Speaker 2 Hmm.

03:44 Speaker 1 And then we had a teacher. Later, when we got a little older, we had, uh, two teachers. One was for Russian and the other one for, um, Lidu- Limudei Kodesh. So, um, in our home, really, uh, it was a real Hasidische home. We had farbrengens in our house, which was so forbidden. There were, uh, more than a dozen bochurim who were illegally in Russ- in our city. Now, what does that mean? You can live anywhere you want if you're in the United States. You can go from New York to New Jersey or where you came from. Where did you come from?

04:21 Speaker 2 From-

04:21 Speaker 1 Baltimore, anywhere. Uh, here you had to have permission to be in the city.

04:26 Speaker 2 Right.

04:27 Speaker 1 You had to have a reason why you were there. So the bochurim, a dozen bochurim, totally illegally in our city, but they took turns sleeping in different homes. There were quite a few Lubavitcher families there, mostly my, our family. Uh, and they took turns and with, with great hope that they're not going to be arrested, and some of them were. So, um, we had farbrengens in the house, but I couldn't understand is why they were crying at a farbrengen. They were singing Nigunim, and we were, "Zea mit der Rebbe, zea mit der Rebbe." And they were singing this, uh, very famous... I mean, they started singing in America, uh, "Di gantse velt iz a shmaler brik." That's a song that they would sing, and they would just cry because they wanted to see the Rebbe. Now, we never saw the Rebbe. We never saw a picture. We had very few seforim of Chassidus, but the family lived mamash like a Hasidish family. So I have to say something about my mother. First of all, she's the one that taught us how to daven and stuff. Um, but every single night when we went to sleep, my mother would put us to sleep with a story, and then with bracha. The zeide will be well. And finally, it is, the Rebbe says, "Hashem, that Rebbe, that Hashem should help us should see the Rebbe." Now, we had about as much chance to see a Rebbe, the Rebbe, as, um, you going to Pluto, which isn't a,

06:03 Speaker 1 a, a planet anymore. So it was ab- And you're wondering like, "What was she thinking?" And again, we never saw the Rebbe. We never expected to see the Rebbe. You couldn't even write a letter to the Rebbe- Hmm ... it was so dangerous. And if somebody wrote something to their family, they would say, "give regard to the zeide," 'cause they couldn't say Rebbe. Right. So that's what hap- Um, so my father really, he was the, uh, the manager of a factory, so it was easier for him to observe Shabbat, and he also tried to make sure that the Jewish workers shouldn't have any work. He would just tell them, "I have nothing for you today," and, and that was it. But he was arrested quite a few times and he would go to the police station with a sack full of money and bribe this one and that one, and he would g- go home. Baruch Hashem that he was never really detained, uh, more than for a few hours. Um, finally, 1946, the Russian government, Stalin, decided that he would allow the Polish immigrants who came to Russia, get away from the, uh, war, um, that they allowed them to leave, go back to Poland. So this is where there was an opportunity for quite a few Lubavitchers to buy documents, false documents obviously, that were Polish, and we were able to leave. But it was so dangerous. There were so many people that were caught with the, the false papers, and never

07:41 Speaker 1 to be seen again. So it was very dangerous. My mother and father had five children at the time, so we left and, um, the danger was at the border when the Polish, uh, police came onto the train, uh, to s- uh, examine who's dri- going there. Nobody spoke Polish. So you say, "What do you mean? You're adult. The children all speak Polish, they understand, they were in Russia, but adults shouldn't..." So it was so dangerous. It was just... Something very cute happened that all of a sudden at the stop that they stopped to be examined at the border, um, there was a family there from Poland. They were Polish, by the way, and all of a sudden we had a bunch of dolls, stuffed dolls, and lush quilts that came out of the, of their luggage, and all got to play around with it, with the dolls and the quilts. We were having so much fun, the children, and as soon as we left the border, the, the people who gave out those dolls quickly retrieved them and put them away. They were full of diamonds. Hmm. And that's how they got their money out of there. It was so, it was so... We found out like much later, but it was so much fun to play with those dolls and blankets, but it were full of... And that's how they got their money out. How- So that was beautiful. How old were you at the time? Uh, pardon? How old were you at the

09:13 Speaker 1 time? Uh, we le- uh, when I left, I was 10 years old. 10 years old. And, um, then from, uh, it took us, you know, most people get on a plane and you come from, uh, Moscow, uh, or Georgia, it's a little more difficult. Uh, but, and they're in New York within whatever it is, 10 hours, 12 hours. Us, it took us two years to get to New York. Because first of all, we traveled with cattle cars everywhere. We stayed in different barracks, and it was, for my, for kids, it was probably fun. It was, I mean, I don't remember it being unhappy. Hmm. But for my parents, my mother especially, it was very, very difficult. And for my younger sister, she was a little child, so for her it was difficult. But me, I had two brothers, uh, no, a sister and two brothers, and my younger sister when we left. So for her it was difficult. But otherwise, for children, you know, children they, they do with everything that happens, so for, for us it was not difficult. Then we landed after many, many, after a year and many difficult travels with the cattle cars and such discomfort for my parents, we landed in Paris. And that was, was beautiful because at the same time, the Rebbe Tzcharla came from Germany to Paris, and the Rebbe, who was not the Rebbe yet, came to Paris to get his mother. He was going to escort her to the United States. Hmm. So my father,

10:55 Speaker 1 um, served the Rebbe. He went on errands for the Rebbe. Whatever the Rebbe needed, he would send him. And my mother cooked for the Rebbe, and he would bring her, the Rebbe, the food. Um, but I have to go back a little bit. My father, as they called, was a dreamer. He always dreamed. Uh, he dreamt that this, that my mother was gonna have a boy. I mean, he dreamt all these kind of things and then there was one year where he dr- my mother was expecting her fourth child, and no, third. Yeah. Fourth child. And, um, my father has a dream that the Rebbe, "" in other words, came to his, uh, he went to see him in '77. He's in '77. He's upstairs in a room, and he sees the Rebbe sitting in a wheelchair, and the Rebbe tells him, "Mazel tov, you're going to have a boy, and he's named after the Rebbe Rashab, Rashab, and you should "" which is called "". I think I saw the story lately being s- uh, spread around, and that was a beautiful thing for my father because I'll tell- When you hear the end, how, how it ends off. And wherever he went, he would ask people, "Did you ever hear of such a ma'amad?" And when he described their dream, they said, "You were never in 770. You don't know what it looks like." The Rebbe was a healthy person. He saw the Rebbe with a white beard, the Rebbe was reddish brown

12:30 Speaker 1 beard, and he never was... He was very healthy when he left Russia. So what kind of wheelchair? What are you dream- all you ever do with your dreams, you know?

12:40 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:41 Speaker 1 They made fun of him a little. So wherever he asked, nobody heard of it. Then when he started to serve the Rebbe, finally he got courage to approach the Rebbe, and he, he said, he asked the Rebbe, "Is there such a ma'amad?" So the Rebbe said, "Why are you asking?"

13:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

13:04 Speaker 1 So he told him about the dream. So the Rebbe said, the Rebbe made him repeat the dream, I think my father said two or three times, in every detail. What the room looked like, what the Rebbe looked like, exactly what the Rebbe said, everything. And finally, the Rebbe went to his attaché case, and he took out a ma'amad, and he gave it to my father, and he said, "When did you have the dream? This is when the Rebbe actually said the ma'amad."

13:36 Speaker 2 Hmm.

13:37 Speaker 1 That's why I thought it's so, so fascinating, going like, so with such detail.

13:43 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is A Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlamedia. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years, to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is A Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad house and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com.

14:28 Speaker 1 So that was my father. My father was, uh, a Hasid. Like when he came to America, he had a very difficult time because no language, no money. They spent all the money that they had to buy the documents, so on the way, they never had any money. And, um, so, uh, they got, uh, the joy at that time was helping, uh-

14:52 Speaker 2 One second. Where, where did your father... You said your fa- you, you, you started with your father when they already lived in Georgia, but what was his background? He, you said he came from a Lubavitch family?

15:01 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. He came from a Lubavitch family.

15:03 Speaker 2 So, right.

15:03 Speaker 1 His father be- his grandfather, I think, became a Lubavitcher. They were-

15:07 Speaker 2 The, the large Lipsker family

15:08 Speaker 1 ... they, they lived in Poltava. It was a large family, yeah.

15:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. I also come from that family. My-

15:12 Speaker 1 All the Lipskers all over the world are the same family. So there's one in Morocco, was Michoels Lipsker, in Israel was Ari Leib, Leibel.

15:22 Speaker 2 Right. No, my-

15:23 Speaker 1 So-

15:23 Speaker 2 ... my great-grandmother was, was Menuchah Lazarov. She was a Lipsker also.

15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, Menuchah Lazarov is her sister.

15:28 Speaker 2 Is your aunt.

15:29 Speaker 1 So she lived in Kutaisi with us.

15:31 Speaker 2 Right, until she got married.

15:32 Speaker 1 She was a widow at the time.

15:33 Speaker 2 Oh.

15:33 Speaker 1 She lost her husband when he w- she was very young.

15:36 Speaker 2 Oh, so she lived with you after, after she had lost her husband?

15:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

15:40 Speaker 2 She was my grandmother.

15:41 Speaker 1 Right, yes.

15:41 Speaker 2 My grandmother Basheva.

15:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. She was... Right.

15:44 Speaker 2 She, she grew up with you in Kutaisi?

15:46 Speaker 1 She grow... She was in, yeah. My father gave her, gave her work in the factory, so she was doing okay. But she was a widow, unfortunately-

15:54 Speaker 2 Right, right

15:54 Speaker 1 ... um, with three little children.

15:57 Speaker 2 Right, yeah.

15:58 Speaker 1 And, um, that was part of the family. She was there, Leibel was there, uh, Ari Leibel, who eventually moved to, uh, to Israel, and Michoel, um, Neimark was also another brother, and also, um, Mankin was another sister.

16:18 Speaker 2 Why-- Where did your father get this deep connection from? Was he in Te-

16:22 Speaker 1 The Chassidus?

16:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. Was he in Tiferes Tzimtzim as a bocher? Was he-

16:25 Speaker 1 The what?

16:25 Speaker 2 Was he in yeshiva? Was he in Tiferes Tzimtzim as a bocher?

16:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. He learned... He was in Poltava.

16:31 Speaker 2 Poltava.

16:31 Speaker 1 He learned, yeah. He was l- of course. They learned. He, he and his brothers were brought up, uh, Lubavitch Hasidim.

16:38 Speaker 2 Right.

16:38 Speaker 1 All of them.

16:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:39 Speaker 1 His fa- his grandfather, I think, became a Lubavitcher, so his father already was a Lubavitcher, and so were all the brothers-

16:46 Speaker 2 Right

16:46 Speaker 1 ... and the sisters. You could see a picture of them. They're all, uh... As a, as a matter of fact, in Poltava, the gr- lady, the women had sheitelach. So interesting.

16:56 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:56 Speaker 1 My mother didn't have one.

16:58 Speaker 2 Where was Poltava?

16:59 Speaker 1 Um, you know, I'm not familiar. I think maybe is it Ukra- I don't know if it's Ukraine.

17:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

17:06 Speaker 1 I'm not sure.

17:07 Speaker 2 Do you know what kind of, like, community there was over there? Was it a community?

17:10 Speaker 1 My father described the community very beautifully. He said on Shabbos, there were so many Jews in the streets, he said. It was just like you felt like you were in a Jewish neighborhood.

17:22 Speaker 2 Was it a very Lubavitch town or, or just altogether-

17:24 Speaker 1 Uh, no, it wasn't Lubavitch, but it was very frum.

17:26 Speaker 2 No. Were there a lot of Lubavitchers there?

17:28 Speaker 1 Um, I don't, I think they were the only family because-

17:32 Speaker 2 Hmm

17:32 Speaker 1 ... Rabbi Teitz, I don't know if you know he, uh, was also from Poltava.

17:37 Speaker 2 Hmm.

17:38 Speaker 1 So Poltava had a Jewish community, a frum Jewish community.

17:41 Speaker 2 Right.

17:43 Speaker 1 But Lubavitch, I think, was only their family.

17:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

17:46 Speaker 1 But I'm not so familiar with the-

17:48 Speaker 2 Very interesting

17:48 Speaker 1 ... history in Poltava.

17:50 Speaker 2 Right. So, so he, he, he had gone to Tiferes Tzimtzim at some point, or he had-

17:54 Speaker 1 I'm sorry?

17:55 Speaker 2 He had gone to yeshiva in Lubavitch at some point, or he had not?

17:57 Speaker 1 Um, I think they... I don't, I don't even know whether they traveled anywhere. I think they learned in Poltava.

18:03 Speaker 2 Hmm, okay.

18:03 Speaker 1 I don't think they went anywhere.

18:05 Speaker 2 And he had, uh-

18:06 Speaker 1 Except that eventually one of the brothers was in Gruzya, so-

18:09 Speaker 2 Right

18:10 Speaker 1 ... told them that it's good to come to... And they all But half of them came to Grushev

18:15 Speaker 2 I'm just trying to understand where his connection to the Friediker Rebbe came from. Did he, the, he went to meet the Friediker Rebbe? The-

18:21 Speaker 1 Don't forget one thing.

18:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:23 Speaker 1 Nobody's-- Most people didn't see the Friediker Rebbe.

18:26 Speaker 2 Right.

18:26 Speaker 1 The Rebbe built up a system of an underground yeshivas-

18:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

18:32 Speaker 1 ... all over the co- all over the country.

18:34 Speaker 2 Right.

18:35 Speaker 1 So my, as a matter of fact, my husband's father was one of the n- nine people that the Friediker Rebbe called in, that they should swear that they're going to keep up Yiddishkeit in Russia to the last drop of blood. He was one of them.

18:48 Speaker 2 Your, your father-in-law.

18:50 Speaker 1 He was my, my father-in-law, Semen Iakobashvili, Jacobson.

18:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:54 Speaker 1 Eventually, he changed his Jacobson when they left, uh, when they came to... He came to Canada, and then we, um-

19:01 Speaker 2 Right

19:01 Speaker 1 ... so they changed to Jacob- Their name was Iakobashvili.

19:04 Speaker 2 Right.

19:05 Speaker 1 So he was one of the n- nine that c- together with the Rebbe, there were 10 people that swore to keep up Yiddishkeit. So the yeshivas were all over. So Poltava had the same thing, an underground.

19:16 Speaker 2 Oh, so your father grew up when it was already k- everything was underground. That's when your father grew up. He, he-

19:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely.

19:22 Speaker 2 So-

19:22 Speaker 1 Everybody. That's the only way you got Yiddishkeit.

19:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

19:25 Speaker 1 It was completely forbidden. I mean

19:27 Speaker 2 Right, right, right. No, no, I, I, I knew that when you were growing up it was like that. I didn't know that your father also was-

19:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course.

19:33 Speaker 2 Okay.

19:33 Speaker 1 As, but as a matter of fact, in Grushev it was easier.

19:36 Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right.

19:37 Speaker 1 In Poltava was more difficult.

19:38 Speaker 2 Right.

19:38 Speaker 1 That's why they asked... He, the brothers said-

19:41 Speaker 2 Right

19:41 Speaker 1 ... "Let's come to Grushev."

19:42 Speaker 2 Right.

19:42 Speaker 1 Also, Moscow was impossible. Leningrad, all the big cities was impossible.

19:48 Speaker 2 So your fa- your, your father, when he had that dream about the Friediker Rebbe, he had never met the Friediker Rebbe before?

19:53 Speaker 1 He ne- No, of course not.

19:55 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

19:55 Speaker 1 He never saw even a picture of the Friediker Rebbe.

19:58 Speaker 2 He had never seen a picture even.

19:59 Speaker 1 Never saw a picture.

20:00 Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

20:00 Speaker 1 Never saw any- anything that resembled-

20:03 Speaker 2 Wow

20:03 Speaker 1 ... anything that-

20:04 Speaker 2 Wow. No, I, I had understood that you hadn't seen because you were growing up in this-

20:09 Speaker 1 Nobody

20:09 Speaker 2 ... Even he, he hadn't seen, your mother hadn't seen.

20:11 Speaker 1 Very few people saw the Friediker Rebbe.

20:13 Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

20:13 Speaker 1 They were brought up under-

20:15 Speaker 2 Right

20:15 Speaker 1 ... the Friediker Rebbe, but how many people saw him?

20:18 Speaker 2 Right.

20:18 Speaker 1 Very few people.

20:19 Speaker 2 And, and ne- he had never seen a picture. Wow.

20:21 Speaker 1 Never saw a picture of the Rebbe, nothing.

20:23 Speaker 2 Wow.

20:23 Speaker 1 And he described 770, the room upstairs.

20:26 Speaker 2 Wow.

20:26 Speaker 1 He described exactly what it looked like.

20:29 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

20:29 Speaker 1 And that the Rebbe was sitting in a wheelchair.

20:31 Speaker 2 Hmm. Hmm.

20:33 Speaker 1 It was amazing.

20:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:34 Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying. It was really-

20:36 Speaker 2 Yeah

20:36 Speaker 1 ... an amazing story.

20:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

20:38 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe made him repeat it-

20:41 Speaker 2 Yeah

20:41 Speaker 1 ... three times because he said every single detail.

20:43 Speaker 2 Right.

20:43 Speaker 1 The Rebbe wanted him every single detail.

20:46 Speaker 2 Right.

20:46 Speaker 1 And my father, he had a lot m- Very often he would, he had dreams. So by him- ... dreams were, were a, a regular thing by him you know?

20:56 Speaker 2 Right, right, right.

20:56 Speaker 1 Uh, but this dream was especially-

20:59 Speaker 2 Right

20:59 Speaker 1 ... profound and especially meaningful. And of course, he had a little boy. And to, to be told that you're gonna have a boy was very helpful because you couldn't just run out to Empire Kosher and-

21:11 Speaker 2 And get a mohel

21:12 Speaker 1 ... buy stuff for the bris.

21:13 Speaker 2 Right.

21:13 Speaker 1 You know?

21:15 Speaker 2 And to find a mo-

21:15 Speaker 1 Had to make wine

21:16 Speaker 2 ... He had to find a mohel.

21:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:17 Speaker 2 Or was he a mohel?

21:18 Speaker 1 But I'm saying he made wine.

21:19 Speaker 2 Right.

21:19 Speaker 1 He prepared himself for the bris.

21:21 Speaker 2 Right.

21:22 Speaker 1 You know? It was, it was great to be told that you're going to have a, a, a boy, and, um...

21:29 Speaker 2 How would you describe your parents, your parents at that time? Were, were they... I'm, I'm, I'm sure they shielded you from a lot as a child, but w-were, were they, were they, were they happy people? Were they sad?

21:42 Speaker 1 They were very happy people.

21:43 Speaker 2 Even in Kutaisi?

21:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. They were... Especially my father was just a happy person in general.

21:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

21:49 Speaker 1 None of... I don't think any of his bro-- Well, I don't think any of his brothers are like he is.

21:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

21:55 Speaker 1 First of all, the, the bitachon, he only lived with bitachon. There was no other way of, of thinking, and he always felt rich also.

22:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

22:05 Speaker 1 By him, there was no such a thing that we don't have money for something. Even when he came to America and he was so not rich at all, I don't wanna use the other word, negative word, but we never felt like, "Oh, you can't have this 'cause we can't afford it." My father never spoke that way.

22:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:25 Speaker 1 He had such bitachon, and he had such... And the simchas of life. I mean, being a Hasid, by him, that was everything.

22:33 Speaker 2 So he was a happy man.

22:34 Speaker 1 He was a very happy person.

22:36 Speaker 2 All the way through?

22:37 Speaker 1 All the way. Positivity was his life.

22:40 Speaker 2 Wow.

22:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. My mother had ups and downs.

22:43 Speaker 2 Okay.

22:43 Speaker 1 That's why there's a story about my mother in America, that they went on yechidas and they-

22:48 Speaker 2 Uh, you said, what was her, what was her name, her maiden name?

22:51 Speaker 1 Lepkovsky.

22:52 Speaker 2 Lepkovsky.

22:53 Speaker 1 It's funny, the whole family is Lipskier.

22:55 Speaker 2 Lepkovsky.

22:56 Speaker 1 Her name was Lepkovsky, and then I had another uncle, Lobkovsky.

23:00 Speaker 2 Lobkovsky.

23:01 Speaker 1 All ... It sounds like one name, you know?

23:04 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:06 Speaker 1 So my mother was not a very happy person when she came to America because, first of all, she spoke English. This is so interesting. When my mother was a- about 17 years old, she was in school. Everybody was taking a language, French. She took English. She had no idea why, and this is over 100 years ago.

23:27 Speaker 2 In Russ- in, in Russia?

23:29 Speaker 1 In Russia.

23:30 Speaker 2 Right.

23:31 Speaker 1 Batum. They lived in Batum. And she took English, so when she came to America, she actually knew English.

23:38 Speaker 2 Right.

23:40 Speaker 1 Nobody else did. My father, of course, didn't, and none of... Well, we learned very quickly. Kids, you know?

23:44 Speaker 2 Right.

23:45 Speaker 1 Immediately we learned English. And so she was a little bit low. So when they went on yechidas, my father mentioned to the Rebbe that my mother is like, you know, not very happy. So the, so the Rebbe told her she should dance at weddings.

24:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:05 Speaker 1 And that's what she did. She always danced. I mean, she was a dancer. She loved dancing. You know, in Russia-

24:12 Speaker 2 Yeah

24:12 Speaker 1 ... she and her sisters made e- everybody happy at a, at a wedding. They would dan- they would dance non-stop. Her sister was also a singer. She... Beautiful voice. Barak. Chana Barak is her, her married name. So my mother start... And then you have no idea what it meant to some people that my mother would dance. And she would go to a wedding where nobody, the Russian families, Baalshesi families, where the people felt, didn't even c- were uncomfortable, the family of the chassan or the kallah. And my mother made them feel comfortable. She grabbed them. She would dance with the kallah. She would dance with the mother, and it was just, she made people happy.

24:56 Speaker 2 And did it, did it make her happier as well?

24:58 Speaker 1 Of course.

24:59 Speaker 2 It did?

24:59 Speaker 1 Of course.

25:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

25:00 Speaker 1 Of course. As a matter of fact, it's interesting, my brothe- my brother, Yosef Chait, Chaitzie as they called him, was killed in a, by a truck in, uh, an accident-

25:10 Speaker 2 Oh, from a-

25:11 Speaker 1 ... uh, very young. Chaitzie was-

25:12 Speaker 2 From Morristown?

25:13 Speaker 1 In Morristown, yeah.

25:14 Speaker 2 That's your bro- that's your brother.

25:15 Speaker 1 That's my brother. And, um, so, you know, after the year, she went to a wedding, and somebody said to her, "You know, h- how do you dance after such a tragedy?" She said, "It's a mitzvah to dance when you're happy." She said, "You have to dance when you're not so happy also."

25:36 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:37 Speaker 1 People couldn't understand how she would just, you know, just took herself in con- under control, and no matter what, she would still would go to weddings and that, but she never ate at any wedding. As a matter of fact, she wouldn't let me eat. She said, "Tzip'ele, when the music plays, you dance. You'll eat at home."

26:01 Speaker 2 Right. Fair enough. Fair enough.

26:03 Speaker 1 And that's what she did.

26:05 Speaker 2 But did it make, did it help her at home as well?

26:07 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

26:08 Speaker 2 It did.

26:08 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

26:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. It helped her become happier at home.

26:10 Speaker 1 It helped also to be out there, you know.

26:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right.

26:14 Speaker 1 So, uh-

26:14 Speaker 2 Not, not to sink into depression or-

26:16 Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly.

26:18 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:18 Speaker 1 And nobody would know that she was depressed. As a matter of fact, my brothers always say, "What do you mean? Is that tr- is it a true story?" 'Cause they never saw her-

26:27 Speaker 2 Hmm

26:27 Speaker 1 ... not happy.

26:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:28 Speaker 1 My mother would put kids to sleep and the grandchildren, always telling stories 'cause she didn't stop reading. She read every single s- I mean, there was any story somebody would start saying, "Oh," "I know that story." She knew all the stories.

26:44 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:45 Speaker 1 So sh- nobody would even think that she was ever depressed in any way. My brother was also screaming at me. He said, "What do you mean? What are you saying she was depressed? Mother? Never."

26:58 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:58 Speaker 1 And again, no money, and really no new clothes for her. If there was any money, clothes had to be for children, uh, you know, not for mother, the mother. But she, you could never know it on her, never.

27:11 Speaker 2 Right.

27:11 Speaker 1 She never, uh-

27:13 Speaker 2 It's interesting because, I mean, it's not, it, it, it's, it's, it's a quite a common story that immigrants have a hard time in their new country, but-

27:21 Speaker 1 Eh-

27:21 Speaker 2 ... but here they're leaving the Soviet Union and coming to America, the Golden Medina. You would think that it was all, all ha- all, you know, roses, and what you're saying is that it wasn't so simple for them.

27:31 Speaker 1 It was not, because they didn't have any money.

27:34 Speaker 2 Right.

27:34 Speaker 1 You didn't have a language.

27:35 Speaker 2 Right.

27:35 Speaker 1 You didn't have, uh, any k- any kind of qualifications to get a job.

27:41 Speaker 2 Right.

27:41 Speaker 1 So my father beca- oh, so this is very cute also. Cute. I don't know if the other word is cute, but my father, the government was help-- the Joint was helping immigrants to settle in, so they could have either a business or they become independent. So they offered that, so the, he went to the, and the Rebbe told him to get a newspaper.

28:03 Speaker 2 Oh, so your par-

28:03 Speaker 1 He bought a new-

28:04 Speaker 2 One second. So your parents came to America before the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away?

28:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. We came in 1948.

28:09 Speaker 2 Okay. Okay. Just, okay, so-

28:10 Speaker 1 Together with the Rebbe and the Rebbetzin about the same time, the Rebbe's mother and the Rebbe.

28:14 Speaker 2 Okay. Just wanted to clarify.

28:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:15 Speaker 2 So, so you asked the Frierdiker Rebbe-

28:16 Speaker 1 In 1948. Uh, so the Rebbe told him to buy a newspaper. He brought the new- with the classified ads. He brought the newspaper to the Rebbe, the Chiddus, and the Rebbe circled that there was a farm for sale.

28:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:30 Speaker 1 So we bought a farm. So they bought a farm. It was an egg farm. Not that he ever made any money, but-

28:41 Speaker 2 Well, what-

28:41 Speaker 1 ... but he made bal teshuva. That's what he did in Hightstown. We were in Hightstown, New Jersey.

28:47 Speaker 2 Hightstown, New Jersey. It's interesting, Rabbi Krinsky, I think, told me a story. I think his mother's family, I think it was his mother's family, also they had, they had, they-

28:57 Speaker 1 They had farms. They have two-

28:58 Speaker 2 Right. They, they... But the Rebbe Rashab had told them in Russia when they were going to America that they should buy a farm when they come to America.

29:04 Speaker 1 Oh, that, I didn't know that.

29:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and it's interesting 'cause the Rebbeim, the early Rebbeim, the Alter-

29:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, they were very much a agricultural.

29:11 Speaker 2 Wanted to go farm. Yeah.

29:12 Speaker 1 I think the Alter Rebbe also helped people-

29:15 Speaker 2 Yes

29:15 Speaker 1 ... to settle on, uh-

29:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

29:17 Speaker 1 ... with agriculture.

29:17 Speaker 2 Yes. It started with the Baal Shem Tov already-

29:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Also-

29:19 Speaker 2 ... which it's really interesting. So, so your, your, your, your, your father was also a farmer at some point-

29:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

29:24 Speaker 2 ... an egg farm. Uh, what-

29:26 Speaker 1 I wouldn't call him a farmer, but-

29:28 Speaker 2 Well, uh, an egg farm means-

29:30 Speaker 1 He was-

29:30 Speaker 2 ... an egg farm means that you're dealing with chickens, and then-

29:32 Speaker 1 He was, number one, he was a Hasid. Number two, he was a Hasid. Number three, he was a Hasid.

29:37 Speaker 2 I understand. He's also-

29:38 Speaker 1 And then he was also a farmer.

29:39 Speaker 2 A Hasid is a farmer. That's right.

29:41 Speaker 1 And subsequently, he was also a grocer, but he was never a grocer. He never made any money.

29:47 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So-

29:48 Speaker 1 He sold the grocery to somebody who's making, Baruch Hashem, I mean, very well, but my father didn't know how to make money.

29:59 Speaker 2 Well, is, is-

29:59 Speaker 1 But he made chizuk.

30:01 Speaker 2 What do you mean he had bal teshuva at the farm? What does that mean? Should I pour some seltzer?

30:06 Speaker 1 Excuse me. No, it doesn't help me. Um, there was a, uh, a pharmacy that was, uh, owned by a family, uh, a, a Jewish family with a few daughters. So he made them frum, and the daughters married Lubavitcher. One of them married a Mintz. The other one, I don't remember.

30:25 Speaker 2 This is in Hightstown, New Jersey.

30:26 Speaker 1 They had two daughters. This was in Hightstown, New Jersey, but-

30:28 Speaker 2 Hightstown

30:28 Speaker 1 ... the farm.

30:29 Speaker 2 Where's that near-

30:30 Speaker 1 And then-

30:30 Speaker 2 Is that near Vineland? Is that, uh-

30:31 Speaker 1 No. Some people were Vineland. We were in Hightstown.

30:35 Speaker 2 Is that near Vineland, the south of New Jersey?

30:36 Speaker 1 They're not too far from each other.

30:38 Speaker 2 South of New Jersey.

30:38 Speaker 1 It's also New Jersey, but it's not-

30:40 Speaker 2 Right

30:40 Speaker 1 ... it's not that far. Yeah.

30:41 Speaker 2 Right, but it's, it's in New Jersey that most people don't, don't know about. It's the south of New Jersey.

30:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. It's not the place that people-

30:47 Speaker 2 It's not Lakewood.

30:48 Speaker 1 Right.

30:48 Speaker 2 It's not Lakewood.

30:48 Speaker 1 Exactly. Yeah. It's not a Jewish neighborhood.

30:51 Speaker 2 N- not anymore. It used to be more.

30:52 Speaker 1 It was never a g- it was never Jewish.

30:54 Speaker 2 Oh, no? Okay.

30:55 Speaker 1 No, no. We were the only farmers there. Then it was Vineland was more, had a few more people than, but we were only, the only ones in Hightstown.

31:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. A- and how long, how long were you there for?

31:08 Speaker 1 A few years. I don't remember exactly how much.

31:11 Speaker 2 A- and when you would, when you would live there, did you, did you come into New York often?

31:16 Speaker 1 What happened was we, we went to public school for six months, and something happened in the school that my mother said to my father, "No more." 'Cause it was boys and girls, you know?

31:29 Speaker 2 Right.

31:29 Speaker 1 Shkotzim and Jews The Jews didn't want to be known as Jews. They were really-

31:36 Speaker 2 Right

31:36 Speaker 1 ... didn't want-- didn't, they didn't look that Jewish, you know? And they, w- they wouldn't even admit that they're Jewish, most of the kids, because it was a-

31:46 Speaker 2 So what was that like for you? You, you, you were obviously Jewish.

31:49 Speaker 1 Yeah, obv- Yeah.

31:50 Speaker 2 Yeah.

31:50 Speaker 1 It was very difficult for us. My sister and I went to public school, nobody else, Esther and I.

31:56 Speaker 2 In Russia, you hadn't gone to public school, right? You didn't go to-

31:58 Speaker 1 No, we had teacher at home.

32:00 Speaker 2 This was your f-

32:00 Speaker 1 We didn't go to school.

32:01 Speaker 2 This was your f-

32:01 Speaker 1 We never registered.

32:02 Speaker 2 Right.

32:02 Speaker 1 If we had registered, then they would look for us.

32:05 Speaker 2 Right.

32:05 Speaker 1 But we never registered, so we were sort of like under the, uh, radar.

32:09 Speaker 2 But I'm saying this was the first time that you had been intermingled with other kids.

32:13 Speaker 1 Yes.

32:14 Speaker 2 And it was-

32:14 Speaker 1 No, we had plenty of friends in, in-

32:16 Speaker 2 But in school

32:16 Speaker 1 ... Georgia.

32:17 Speaker 2 In school, I mean.

32:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, in school was the only first time then, in the public school. And then something happened, which I don't know if I should repeat it, so

32:25 Speaker 2 I, I think every-

32:25 Speaker 1 My mother was not very happy.

32:27 Speaker 2 I think everybody figured it out already.

32:29 Speaker 1 My mother was not happy, so they had a midnight discussion. I call it midnight, you know, when the kids are asleep. And they decide they're gonna send the girls to school in Crown Heights.

32:42 Speaker 2 In Bais Rivkah.

32:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, so we-

32:43 Speaker 2 Was it Bais Rivkah already?

32:44 Speaker 1 There was no Bais Rivkah. There was Bais Yaakov.

32:46 Speaker 2 Bais Yaakov.

32:46 Speaker 1 So we went to Williamsburg.

32:48 Speaker 2 Right. And where did you stay, by your cousins?

32:50 Speaker 1 And, um, we stayed in rooms. You know, we rented rooms, and it was very... It was not a happy time.

32:56 Speaker 2 Not a happy time.

32:57 Speaker 1 But you know, kids, we're always happy anyway.

33:00 Speaker 2 What was it like for your father? Do you remember what it was like for your father and mother to meet the

33:05 Speaker 1 Freidiker Rebbe the first time after all those years of- Oh, so when we came-

33:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

33:10 Speaker 1 ... when, when we came to, uh, America, uh, so I, at about a, a month after we came, we had yechidus with the Rebbe. So w- it was my mother and father, and there were six children now.

33:24 Speaker 2 Oh, six.

33:24 Speaker 1 'Cause I had a brother was born in France, in Paris.

33:28 Speaker 2 What's his name?

33:28 Speaker 1 So it was fi-- Um, Tzvi Hersch, and he married a Frenchie. It's interesting. Uh, so when we came into yechidus, we all said Shehecheyanu. There were sheim omalos, you know, you see the Rebbe for the first time. And then the Rebbe told us, "To see such a family coming out of Russia, I have to say Shehecheyanu," the Rebbe said.

33:57 Speaker 2 Really?

33:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was so beautiful.

33:59 Speaker 2 Wow.

33:59 Speaker 1 Now, we didn't-- We, I, I know kids certainly didn't understand what the Rebbe was saying 'cause he had a speech impediment because of his, uh, not being well, obviously. But the secretary told us what the Rebbe said, and then he gave us such brachos. I always tell people, they say, "Well, why do you deserve to have such children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren?" I said, "It's all the Rebbe's brachos." First, we had brachos from the Freidiker Rebbe, and now we have brachos from the Rebbe, you know. So it's all due to all these brachos that we got.

34:34 Speaker 2 And what-- Do, do you remember what it was like for your parents to-

34:37 Speaker 1 It was, it was so thrilling. I mean, I know they couldn't stop... First of all, my father was also... And later, when we were still on the farm with the Rebbe, it was his talik, Yut Shat. So they called Motzei Shabbat, they called him, and he came in, and he was part of the chevre kadisha that took care of the Rebbe.

34:56 Speaker 2 Mm.

34:57 Speaker 1 So when he came back to the farm, he described what the Rebbe looked like. We was all cry- We were all crying. He described everything to us. It was, for him, it was, you know, such an experience. And, um, so a Hasid is a Hasid, you know? He's such a... And when the Reb- And right after the his talkos, my father couldn't even think of anything but the Rebbe is the Rebbe. There was no, you know-

35:24 Speaker 2 Really?

35:25 Speaker 1 ... not a doubt in his mind. Yeah, of course.

35:28 Speaker 2 Well, from, from their-

35:29 Speaker 1 He told us, you know-

35:30 Speaker 2 From their, from their-

35:31 Speaker 1 ... that's the Rebbe

35:31 Speaker 2 ... from their encounter in Paris.

35:33 Speaker 1 When-- I don't know if it's an encounter. My father didn't need, I don't think, the encounter in Paris, um-

35:40 Speaker 2 No, because there were some people who were-- There was another-- There was the

35:43 Speaker 1 Rashag as well. There was- But-

35:45 Speaker 2 Your f- your father-

35:46 Speaker 1 My father-

35:47 Speaker 2 Your father knew

35:47 Speaker 1 ... knew. My father knew.

35:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

35:49 Speaker 1 There was no q- doubt in his mind.

35:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

35:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. He was, uh... That's why, you know, my ki- my j- my, uh, brothers and sisters, uh, they're all such Hasidim because the Rebbe, uh, my father infused in us this Hasidishkeit. And my mother, i- from home, from Georgia, from Gruzia-

36:08 Speaker 2 Yeah

36:08 Speaker 1 ... we were infused with Hasidishkeit of the Rebbeim.

36:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

36:12 Speaker 1 We never saw a Rebbe. We never saw anything about, not one single picture of any Rebbe.

36:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:18 Speaker 1 But the idea that we were Hasidim of the Rebbe, there's no, there was no question about it. You know, there's no... This is how you live. That's how a Hasid lives.

36:27 Speaker 2 Right. So you spoke, you spoke about your parents', uh, challenge of adjusting to the United States, which makes, which makes a lot of sense. How was it for you as a, as a younger person? Was it hard? Was it... Do you remember that, that adjustment?

36:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'll tell you, um, when I went to Bais Yaakov, first of all, the kids were very nice to us.

36:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

36:50 Speaker 1 You know, nobody really, like, looked down at us or anything. So I think we were treated very fairly. The principal spoke to my father. She saw that he didn't have any money. She didn't take any money from us.

37:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

37:05 Speaker 1 Uh, but we didn't, weren't treated like people who were not paying.

37:08 Speaker 2 Mm.

37:09 Speaker 1 So always treated nicely, and I had right away friends. I learned English so quickly You see I have no accent, am I right?

37:17 Speaker 2 You, you're a very-

37:17 Speaker 1 I have a Brooklyn accent

37:18 Speaker 2 Yes

37:19 Speaker 1 But not a Russian. And I speak Russian fluently.

37:22 Speaker 2 You do, to this day.

37:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, I do. Yeah.

37:24 Speaker 2 To this day.

37:24 Speaker 1 So, but I don't have a Russian accent. I learned immediately.

37:28 Speaker 2 Right.

37:28 Speaker 1 And, uh, first of all, in public school was very good because nobody spoke any other language.

37:33 Speaker 2 Right. No Yiddish.

37:34 Speaker 1 In Beis Yaakov I could speak Yiddish. Many people spoke Yiddish, obviously. Uh, but in public school I didn't, so I think that helped me a lot.

37:43 Speaker 2 Right.

37:44 Speaker 1 So when it came to Beis Yaakov, it's really English I knew already, but not that well, but I adjusted, uh, I think, you know, not badly. I don't think I was... I wasn't unhappy.

37:57 Speaker 2 Right.

37:57 Speaker 1 I was never unhappy.

37:59 Speaker 2 Right. But, but did you, did you f- did you feel, did you, did you, did you realize the magnitude of the change of the country that you lived in? Like, in Russia, everything's very hidden and very secretive.

38:10 Speaker 1 You know what? Again, even in Russia, you see, our parents had such a warm, a home-

38:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

38:18 Speaker 1 ... that we never felt this alienation or anything.

38:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:22 Speaker 1 We never felt like we don't belong somewhere, you know? Because I think in other parts of the country, definitely people felt that way.

38:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

38:31 Speaker 1 We knew my father was in danger. We knew the Bochurim were in danger, but we didn't feel it in our home. So in our home was very warm. You know, we'd bake... My father baked matzah in our house, so that night we couldn't go to sleep because the beds were all covered up with white sheets, and the matzahs were cooling off. Until they finished baking the matzah, we couldn't go to sleep.

38:54 Speaker 2 Wow.

38:55 Speaker 1 All the beds and the tables, all the, any sp- place that was possible, they put sheets, and the matzahs were being baked in our house. So again, the, the atmosphere was always so Hasidish, so warm, so with Yiddishkeit, that we never felt like, again, like aliens anywhere.

39:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So, uh-

39:16 Speaker 1 We came to America, it was just easier, you understand? It was easy. We didn't have to worry about anything. And what I find fascinating about my family, and about some of the people that we're close with, is they didn't change in the sense that now we didn't have to fight for anything. Everything was so easy, I'm a higher, you know. All you have to do is get a business, make money, and you'll be good. My father ne-never, never went into this mode of, oh, oh, there you have to fight for, for, for Shemitah, for Shemitah Shabbos, for, for lighting candles, for every single... For kashrus. We never tasted a piece of meat because we only had a shochet for chickens.

40:00 Speaker 2 In Kotisk.

40:00 Speaker 1 In, in... Yeah, in R- in Russia, e-ever. So at first time I had tasted meat was, like, in New York, because even on the farm we couldn't afford the meat. We had chicken farm, so we ate chicken.

40:13 Speaker 2 And what, and what, what was your verdict? Was it overrated or underrated?

40:16 Speaker 1 Um, overrated.

40:19 Speaker 2 Overrated.

40:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. You can make something delicious with chicken and with vegetables.

40:26 Speaker 2 Fair enough.

40:27 Speaker 1 One thing about my mother, she was a great cook. She could make something out of nothing. So, you know, yesh meayin was my mother's way. So we never had any problems with that. And, um, and again, so the adjustment, I think my father, forget about it. My father came here, and he was the same Hasid and the same not caring about money and not caring about anything except really living. I'm a higher now. He doesn't have to worry that he's gonna get caught by the police, you know, the next day.

41:03 Speaker 2 Right.

41:03 Speaker 1 Didn't have to worry about that. So that was, like, him, like, just the burden was taken off. But different kind of a life, totally not.

41:11 Speaker 2 Mm. Mm.

41:12 Speaker 1 Because some people, I watched them change, and it was so painful.

41:17 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:18 Speaker 1 And that's what the Rebbe, I'm sure, I don't know how much you know about when the Rebbe took over, that was his challenge. He had to bring Mesirut Nefesh to, to the Jews that came, that were, that were... The, the Chabad that was here.

41:33 Speaker 2 So describe-

41:33 Speaker 1 Because the Mesirut Nefesh was not there.

41:36 Speaker 2 So describe that a little bit.

41:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:37 Speaker 2 I think that's very, that's a very important subject.

41:39 Speaker 1 Because, you know, it reminds me, my husband will talk about, I don't know if we have time to talk about that. I'll give it, but my-

41:44 Speaker 2 Of course. We'll get there

41:44 Speaker 1 ... my husband was, um, young, a young... Well, I mean, look, uh, he was 17, 18. He was in Paris. He's, he was a writer. He loved writing. He was a really talented writer, so he wrote in a newspaper already in Paris.

42:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:02 Speaker 1 And his dream was writing.

42:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:05 Speaker 1 So he came to America by, by, uh, by the shiva when my husband passed away, so his friends were here. So his friends told us something very beautiful, which I never heard before. He said that we all hang around, you know, say, "What are we gonna do in America?" Some of them were married. My husband was the youngest. He was still a bocher. And they said, they all said, "Well, I'm gonna build a business," so one became... So some of them became the fa- They owned factory, knitting factories, like, you know, because it was something. You didn't need skill. You didn't need any kind of, uh, uh, literary skills, you know.

42:40 Speaker 2 Right.

42:40 Speaker 1 You just... And he said, "I want to change the world."

42:44 Speaker 2 Wow.

42:44 Speaker 1 That's what he said. It was so beautiful because that's... He wanted to be a journalist, and that's it. So the first years of our marriage, we also struggled financially because a guy with a beard and a babushka wants to be a journalist. You find... You understand?

42:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:00 Speaker 1 Uh, the journalistic world and not amenable to, uh, Hasidim, to frumkeit. Has, uh, it had a lot of challenges, and the money was like, you know, he wanted to be a journalist, so that's what he wanted to be, dream. And he became a journalist, and he... They made inroads. I mean, what he, he revolutionized, uh- ... journalism and the Jewish world-

43:26 Speaker 2 Right

43:26 Speaker 1 ... with the Algemeiner. I was-

43:28 Speaker 2 But, but he didn't start-

43:29 Speaker 1 Even before he was working for The Day Jewish Journal, even there, he brought in things that nobody did.

43:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

43:35 Speaker 1 'Cause he was his own, you know, he was still a Hasid of the Rebbe.

43:39 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

43:39 Speaker 1 So, uh, he brought in things that, uh-

43:42 Speaker 2 No, let's get to that, but, but first, but first describe a little bit what you're talking about because, uh, it's a very interesting topic. Uh, describe a little bit this, this challenge that you said that the Rebbe had with, with his own Lubavitch community in Crown Heights, right?

43:58 Speaker 1 The challenge was, I remember there was a first story that we heard, you know, through the grapevine, that there was a couple that j- had just gotten married.

44:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

44:06 Speaker 1 And then somebody sugg- uh, I guess, wanted a shluchim, so the Rebbe suggested that this couple should go there. So he gets a q- uh, a call from, uh, you know, a woman who... I mean, from, through the secretary, that this woman must have yichud. She can't take it. She has to have yichud. So, in those days you could have yichud pretty, uh, you know, easily. So she came in, and she's crying, "My only daughter, and you're sending her so far away. I can't take it," or... So the Rebbe told her, "I thought you were interested in the welfare of your children, but I see that you're interested in your own welfare, so I'm not sending them." And they didn't go. And that was the attitude.

44:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

44:51 Speaker 1 Comfortable. I mean, like, we had enough. Enough suffering, enough fighting for Yiddishkeit. Macha, you can do whatever you want here.

45:00 Speaker 2 Right.

45:00 Speaker 1 What's the problem?

45:01 Speaker 2 Right.

45:03 Speaker 1 Then, you know, especially, you know, what happened when... So the Rebbe had to fight his own people.

45:09 Speaker 2 But you, but you were also referring-

45:10 Speaker 1 But you know the phrase the Rebbe said, "America is nit anders."

45:13 Speaker 2 Right.

45:13 Speaker 1 He set the, he set the scene for it.

45:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:16 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe had to fight for every single-

45:19 Speaker 2 Right

45:19 Speaker 1 ... step-

45:21 Speaker 2 Right

45:21 Speaker 1 ... of bringing mesirat nefesh. And of course, in, in A- in America, you didn't need mesirat nefesh of your body. You need mesirat haratzon.

45:29 Speaker 2 Right.

45:29 Speaker 1 It's also considered nefesh.

45:31 Speaker 2 Right.

45:31 Speaker 1 But that's more difficult, by the way. G- you know, that when somebody wants to force you to do something, the nature of a human being is to fight.

45:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:41 Speaker 1 Nobody's forcing you. What are you fighting for?

45:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:45 Speaker 1 You can have whatever you want, you know. What do they have? You can have the cake and eat it, too.

45:51 Speaker 2 Right.

45:51 Speaker 1 You don't need to fight for anything.

45:53 Speaker 2 Right.

45:54 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe's spirit, you know the Rebbe. You fight for everything. If you're not fighting, then you're not living.

46:01 Speaker 2 Right. But you, you just... The story that you just mentioned is, is about shlichus, which is that the Rebbe had to basically-

46:09 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:10 Speaker 2 ... encourage and, and put-

46:11 Speaker 1 Exactly.

46:11 Speaker 2 But, but, but you... Earlier it sounded like you were talking more about within the community that the-

46:16 Speaker 1 Exactly. Within the community also

46:18 Speaker 2 ... things were slipping.

46:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, because you know what? They came from c- all over. Like, we had a pretty, uh... Materially, we didn't have a difficult life in Gru- in Georgia.

46:31 Speaker 2 Right.

46:31 Speaker 1 But in Moscow and then Ukraine, wherever the Jews were, they suffered both financially and physically.

46:40 Speaker 2 Right.

46:40 Speaker 1 We didn't have that. So when people came here, like these friends of my husband said, "I want to have a business, quiet, buy myself a little house. I'll be comfortable. That's what we want. Had enough struggling. Do we have to keep struggling? Why we come to America? America, the golden medinah. You're going to be frum, and you're going to have everything. What's the problem? What are you fighting for?"

47:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:07 Speaker 1 Rebbe was fi- this one. Rebbe was... Y- I, I'm sure you heard the first sicha the Rebbe said, "Netzach nit an feigel a chumbuzin."

47:14 Speaker 2 Right.

47:15 Speaker 1 "You have to work. You, you need to work. I will help you, but the work has to be done by..." Which work?

47:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:22 Speaker 1 Which work?

47:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:24 Speaker 1 Work. You have a country that's hungry for Yiddishkeit.

47:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:31 Speaker 1 How are you gonna motivate people? Every sicha. What was the sichas all about at the beginning? Every sicha was talking about that. He had to fight his own people, and I could see it. And the people that were with us in Grutia even became a butcher. He was a butcher. That's what he was. In Am- in, in Russia, he was a Hasid.

47:53 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:54 Speaker 1 Here, he's beco- a bu- he became a butcher.

47:56 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:58 Speaker 1 You understand? Because nobody's fighting you.

48:01 Speaker 2 Right.

48:01 Speaker 1 Nobody demanding anything from you. What's the problem? We're frum. You can be as frum as you want. I mean, like, you know, whatever hedurim, all the hedurim that you want. Cholov Yisroel and everything. Do you remember, though, the Rebbe spoke about after Kennedy came out with his, uh, that he was sending out people-

48:21 Speaker 2 The Peace Corps

48:22 Speaker 1 ... he said, "There's a goy"-

48:24 Speaker 2 Right

48:24 Speaker 1 ... "and the people are going for it."

48:27 Speaker 2 Right.

48:27 Speaker 1 "They don't know where they're going. They don't... They're not promised any money."

48:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:31 Speaker 1 "They're not promised any food. Nothing. You're going out in the boondocks. You're going to a desert to help people." So he's saying, "The goy said it. People were jumping."

48:45 Speaker 2 You know, I mean, yeah. Uh, the, like when you look at pictures, when you look at pictures from back then, like you see weddings where, uh, you see plenty of men sitting next to the Rebbe without beards.

48:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

48:57 Speaker 2 Lubavitchers, you... Uh, I don't know if I've seen pictures, but I know that many of the weddings were mixed seating.

49:03 Speaker 1 No, no, not mixed. Uh, that, uh-

49:05 Speaker 2 Not dancing, but seating, there was mixed, I think, no?

49:07 Speaker 1 No, s- no. There was no mixed seating. Very few.

49:09 Speaker 2 Very few.

49:10 Speaker 1 No, no. No, I don't think... It wasn't that. It was, uh-

49:14 Speaker 2 No, but, but, but sta-

49:14 Speaker 1 ... more, again-

49:15 Speaker 2 Standards were certainly in, in certain ways r- more relaxed then than they are today.

49:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, they were relaxed.

49:21 Speaker 2 Right.

49:21 Speaker 1 I'll tell you one thing-

49:22 Speaker 2 What was it-

49:22 Speaker 1 ... that's very interesting, and I think we have to understand that, without being critical of, of Chabad. In Russia, the clothes didn't mean anything.

49:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:35 Speaker 1 You understand?

49:36 Speaker 2 Interesting.

49:37 Speaker 1 It didn't me- it didn't tell you how frum somebody was. As a matter of fact, the guy could look like the biggest peasant and was frumer than, than the guy that had a beard.

49:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:49 Speaker 1 So you... Clothes meant nothing.

49:51 Speaker 2 Why? Because of communism or in general?

49:53 Speaker 1 Because of communism.

49:55 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:55 Speaker 1 'Cause you couldn't dress like a ha- What, they walk around as kapotes? Yeah.

49:59 Speaker 2 Ah. I see what you mean. Okay.

50:00 Speaker 1 So clothes meant nothing. That's why even in America when Berkechein w- and all these guys were wearing ketketkes.

50:06 Speaker 2 Ketketkes.

50:07 Speaker 1 Why weren't they wearing hat, black hats?

50:09 Speaker 2 Right.

50:10 Speaker 1 They knew that the clothes mean nothing.

50:13 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

50:14 Speaker 1 You understand? Some women who didn't cover their hair because they couldn't were frumer than the one that covered her hair in America.

50:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:22 Speaker 1 You understand? Ta'aras HaMishpacha by them was like they went to frozen lakes to go Ta'aras HaMishpacha.

50:28 Speaker 2 Right.

50:29 Speaker 1 But they didn't cover their hair.

50:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:30 Speaker 1 So somebody said, "Oh, that one? Oh, puh." You understand? So this was-

50:35 Speaker 2 Very interesting

50:35 Speaker 1 ... brought to New York.

50:36 Speaker 2 No, I, I, I just-

50:37 Speaker 1 So here, clothes did not mean anything. We didn't have to dress a certain way to be frum.

50:43 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:43 Speaker 1 So that's why you see in pictures people are not dressed.

50:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:48 Speaker 1 As a matter of fact, my husband did not wear a kapote for many, many years until his daughter got married. And her friend-

50:54 Speaker 2 Why, why, why not? He-

50:56 Speaker 1 He was a journalist, okay?

50:57 Speaker 2 Right.

50:57 Speaker 1 You know, and he, he didn't take it upon himself.

51:00 Speaker 2 Right.

51:00 Speaker 1 But my daughter's friends would say, "Your father doesn't wear a kapote", you know? Like that.

51:05 Speaker 2 No, it's, it's, it's interesting. I was always convinced because of that, that your husband wa- didn't come from a Lubavitch family, and then you tell me now... No, no, I, I'm-

51:13 Speaker 1 His father gave him...

51:14 Speaker 2 That's what you're saying and I... 'Cause that, that-

51:16 Speaker 1 Exactly

51:17 Speaker 2 ... that's how far, that's how far the image-

51:19 Speaker 1 So he came to 770 to farbrengen with his crazy hat.

51:23 Speaker 2 Your husband?

51:23 Speaker 1 'Cause he was coming straight from work.

51:25 Speaker 2 Your husband?

51:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:26 Speaker 2 With a different colored hat.

51:28 Speaker 1 He came from work.

51:29 Speaker 2 Like a w-

51:29 Speaker 1 From his bus-

51:30 Speaker 2 His white-

51:31 Speaker 1 From his-

51:31 Speaker 2 His white hat.

51:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Crazy.

51:32 Speaker 2 I've seen, I've seen the pic- The white hat you're talking about.

51:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, okay.

51:34 Speaker 1 And the jacket could be, you know-

51:36 Speaker 2 White. White or whatever

51:37 Speaker 1 ... beige.

51:38 Speaker 2 Right.

51:39 Speaker 1 And comes up-

51:40 Speaker 2 Leah, Leah, Leah

51:40 Speaker 1 ... this is a chassid.

51:41 Speaker 2 Leah, Leah.

51:42 Speaker 1 You understand? Clothes.

51:43 Speaker 2 Right.

51:44 Speaker 1 So we have to understand-

51:45 Speaker 2 And so, so he wasn't, he wasn't trying to thumb his-

51:48 Speaker 1 No

51:48 Speaker 2 ... he wasn't trying to make a point that he doesn't care. It was more-

51:50 Speaker 1 Totally not.

51:51 Speaker 2 It's, it's irrelevant

51:52 Speaker 1 He worked for Yedioth Ahronoth.

51:54 Speaker 2 Right. He had to finish.

51:54 Speaker 1 An Israeli newspaper. So he worked at 12 o'c- at 12 o'clock at night he had to be at the office to send-

52:00 Speaker 2 Mm

52:01 Speaker 1 ... news 'cause there was 6:00 in the morning.

52:03 Speaker 2 Right.

52:04 Speaker 1 So, and the farbrengen would be start at 9:30. So he would come at about 1:00, 1:30 to farbrengen. So no o- So he dressed the way he was dressed in the office, in the, in his, in his newspaper.

52:16 Speaker 2 Right.

52:17 Speaker 1 He would come straight to fa... He didn't come home to change.

52:20 Speaker 2 Right.

52:20 Speaker 1 He went straight to the farbrengen. First of all, it was very interesting. As soon as he would come into farbrengen, the next sicha had to do with something, whether it's Israel-

52:29 Speaker 2 Right

52:29 Speaker 1 ... or something that only he picked up the nuance.

52:32 Speaker 2 The Rebbe was talking to him.

52:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. 'Cause people later on said, "When did the Rebbe say this?" 'Cause he was right, you know, about it.

52:40 Speaker 2 Right.

52:40 Speaker 1 "Well, the Rebbe said it."

52:42 Speaker 2 Did... When you went into, I'm sure you went into Yechidas with your husband, just the two of you.

52:46 Speaker 1 What is it?

52:47 Speaker 2 I'm sure you went into Yechidas with your husband.

52:49 Speaker 1 Yes, I did.

52:49 Speaker 2 Right. Did he d- did he ever, did he change his clothing then?

52:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course he tr- When for Yechidas-

52:57 Speaker 2 Right

52:58 Speaker 1 ... usually we went like 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

53:00 Speaker 2 No, but he didn't wear a kapote, right? He still didn't wear a kapote.

53:04 Speaker 1 Uh, later on when he started to wear a kapote-

53:05 Speaker 2 Right

53:05 Speaker 1 ... he wore a kapote.

53:06 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying at that p- at that... He didn't feel like he had to put on airs.

53:10 Speaker 1 Absolutely not.

53:11 Speaker 2 At-

53:11 Speaker 1 The Rebbe knew him very well

53:12 Speaker 2 ... and the Rebbe never said anything to him, obviously, about that. Right.

53:15 Speaker 1 It's interesting because, uh, in one of the Yechidas, and after he opened up the newspaper, the Algemeiner, was, the Rebbe was involved with the name. I mean-

53:23 Speaker 2 Right

53:23 Speaker 1 ... really very fascinating story altogether. But, uh, um, my, my husband asked, Gershon asked my Rebbe, um, "There's some people say that, uh, the paper is not, is not frum enough." So what do you think the Rebbe said to him? He said, "I'm sure there's some people say it's too frum."

53:43 Speaker 2 That's what the Rebbe said to him.

53:44 Speaker 1 Exactly. The Rebbe knew what a newspaper was.

53:47 Speaker 2 Right.

53:48 Speaker 1 And he knew that to get people-

53:51 Speaker 2 Right

53:51 Speaker 1 ... to get a sicha into their house, they're gonna have to have a newspaper that has what they need, and then they can have a Rebbe sicha in the house. They're gonna have all about Lubavitch malkas, and weddings, and bar mitzvahs, and Jewish things. 'Cause the J- the, the, the Jewish newspaper w- were, were very secular.

54:11 Speaker 2 When-

54:11 Speaker 1 So when he opened up his newspaper, there wasn't one single issue they didn't have a sicha.

54:16 Speaker 2 Right.

54:17 Speaker 1 And they all had theater, and books, and article that were totally anti-Zionist, anti-Jewish, anti-everything-

54:27 Speaker 2 Did, did he-

54:28 Speaker 1 ... because he wanted to attract the people. Who's buying a newspaper? The Rebbe even said it. He said, "A person who never has a sefer in his house-

54:39 Speaker 2 Right

54:40 Speaker 1 ... now has a sicha in his house."

54:42 Speaker 2 Right. Wa- was that the motivation-

54:44 Speaker 1 That was the goal

54:45 Speaker 2 ... that was the goal of opening the newspaper, was to spread Yiddishkeit?

54:47 Speaker 1 Opening the newspaper was, um, to give Jews a glimpse of life that wasn't biased in any way.

55:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

55:00 Speaker 1 You understand? First of all, he gave opportunity to koichrim to write.

55:04 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, just, just to give a little bit-

55:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, go ahead

55:06 Speaker 2 ... of background, 'cause a lot of that has to do with the fact that most of the Yiddishists in newspapers before that were very, very left, right? The-

55:14 Speaker 1 Not mo- not all of them. There was one paper that he was working for, was middle, was not left at all.

55:19 Speaker 2 But most, but most of them were very-

55:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, completely. Completely.

55:21 Speaker 2 Right. So that, that's what you mean by unbiased, to, to give them something without all of that, right?

55:26 Speaker 1 But he also gave an oppor... As a matter of fact, when, uh, Natan Ya'alon, who was... I mean, he beca- he, he changed his mind before he died. Um, but he w- he used to write against Israel. He was such an Arabist, and he came to the Yechid, uh, he came to get, uh, kos shel bracha with my husband to the Rebbe. So the Rebbe told him that he's a great writer. He reads his stuff. He said, "Do you agree with me?" He said that he asked the Rebbe. Rebbe said, "I only have to read only what I agree with."

55:59 Speaker 2 That's what the Rebbe said to this columnist.

56:01 Speaker 1 This... He was such an anti-

56:03 Speaker 2 Right

56:04 Speaker 1 ... and, and the Rebbe said he reads it.

56:06 Speaker 2 Right.

56:06 Speaker 1 Do you understand?

56:07 Speaker 2 So the Rebbe would regularly read the Algemeiner Journal?

56:11 Speaker 1 Cover to cover Cover to cover The rebbetzin told me Rebbetzin told you that? I spoke to her on the phone because I wanted something from her. So she said, "My husband and I" She said it to what, in English? That they... Well, no, it's Yiddish. My husband and I. My man. How do you say that in Yiddish? My man. Un mir? Un ich. Un ich. My man and I. Ich, my man. Ich, my man. Really? "That's a good title. She has interesting. Yeah, that t- their money's as mensch." And sh- 'cause I asked, my husband was coming out with an issue for Yiddei Tammuz. So my husband said to me, "Call the rebbetzin and see if you can get something from her, a picture, a story, anything that's a little bit unusual." You worked with your husband or just this one time? Yeah. Yeah, I worked with him. You were part of the Algemeiner? I was the fire under the Algemeiner when it started. S- so you were involved the whole time? Oh, yeah. Okay. Later, they didn't need me. Okay. But in the beginning, I was the fire- Right ... 'cause we had nothing else. We didn't have money. We didn't have a place. But, but you bought into the vision. Somebody gave us a room in a, in a factory. Uh, Mendel Shemtov gave us a room in the factory Uh-huh ... in his factory. They gave me a little closet. They gave me a, a room inside with the, with their secretary,

57:36 Speaker 1 and every time I would get on the phone to... I tried to get ads. Now, you had to have you had to be really enthusiastic, excited, and, you know, say things that... And they're all listening in. I said, "Okay, I need a closet- ... where I can talk freely the way I want to- Mm-hmm ... and I can get the ads," 'cause the paper needed advertising. We had no money. Right. Right. And also, the, all the writers, they had such great writers. I'm telling you, ugh, that's, that's what I regret, like we don't have one... Okay, America doesn't have it anymore either. Even The New York Times used to have great writers. They don't have them anymore. But our writers, the Yiddish writers, and I love Yiddish. It's my first language. I just love Yiddish. They were so talented. Mm-hmm. They were brilliant. Mm-hmm. And they had no place to be. They were writing in their own home, and they would bring the article to my husband, so I had to give them inspiration. So I would call them up, and I'd tell them, "I read your..." Which I did, I read all their art- it's not that I did, never made up anything 'cause I love reading. And I would tell them, "It's so exciting to read what you wrote," 'cause they had no feedback. Mm-hmm. They had no place to gather and talk about it. Each one was in his own house. You understand? So I had to get them... So I would

59:02 Speaker 1 call every... The whole day I was on the phone either getting advertising or speaking to the writers. So I was the fire under that paper, but after that, they didn't need me. They had, they had salesmen, they had writers. You know, they had everything that they needed, but, you know. Hmm. But I'm a very good editor, and when even my husband, who wrote brilliantly, I used to edit his editorial. You know, every week he would write his own editorial. I would tighten it up- ... and he, and he loved it- Yes, I saw ... because I didn't let him repeat anything. I was so, I was so meticulous about it- Mm-hmm ... and, and it worked very well. Beautiful. Did the rebbetzin give you s- I'm looking now for a job. You're looking for a job. To edit Yiddish or Hebrew. Yiddish or Hebrew. Yeah. Did, did the rebbetzin give you something in the end? Uh, no. That's a lesson in never saying no and not giving anything. She didn't say no? She never said the word no. But she didn't give anything? No. I always talk about it. I says, you know, I kept saying, "But rebbetzin, Efshin, Efshin, Efshin,

1:02:19 Speaker 2 The younger brother

1:02:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. And subsequently, my parents took him into their house-

1:02:23 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:02:23 Speaker 1 ... which is another story.

1:02:25 Speaker 2 Before you were married.

1:02:26 Speaker 1 Before I were married, yeah.

1:02:27 Speaker 2 That's how you met, I assume.

1:02:29 Speaker 1 Well, I met him before that, but not seriously. At this time it was more serious. He used to come every day to see his brother.

1:02:36 Speaker 2 That's how you met.

1:02:37 Speaker 1 That was very convenient.

1:02:39 Speaker 2 That's how you met. Very nice.

1:02:42 Speaker 1 No, s- official... You know, originally, uh, he was in s-

1:02:45 Speaker 2 You threw a shot-

1:02:46 Speaker 1 Some, uh, you know-

1:02:46 Speaker 2 You threw a shotgun in there to make it official, but...

1:02:49 Speaker 1 No, it was-

1:02:50 Speaker 2 The-

1:02:50 Speaker 1 Originally, he... I mean, we met before that, but not, not officially, you know.

1:02:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:55 Speaker 1 Just, uh, I was in the same house where he was eating, you know, stuff like that. But then when he started to come every single day to see his brother, you know, it was very convenient.

1:03:07 Speaker 2 Very nice.

1:03:07 Speaker 1 We didn't need a shotgun.

1:03:08 Speaker 2 You didn't even need a shotgun. Very nice.

1:03:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, oh, with the rebbetzin. So the family-

1:03:14 Speaker 2 And he, he was already a journalist at that time, or he was just still a bachur in yeshiva? Or once he came to Canada-

1:03:18 Speaker 1 Oh

1:03:19 Speaker 2 ... and, and America, he was already working?

1:03:20 Speaker 1 Oh, he was a bachur in yeshiva, yeah.

1:03:21 Speaker 2 Here, here in Seven Seventy.

1:03:23 Speaker 1 In Seven Seventy, yeah.

1:03:25 Speaker 2 Uh, only afterwards he became a journalist.

1:03:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, after we got married.

1:03:28 Speaker 2 That's right.

1:03:28 Speaker 1 He was still a shaliach. He t- he traveled for Merkos.

1:03:32 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

1:03:32 Speaker 1 For a year, yeah. And then he, he just couldn't. He just needed to go back to... He had to go to his, uh, vocation.

1:03:40 Speaker 2 His passion.

1:03:40 Speaker 1 I mean, to him, writing was his life.

1:03:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. And, and Reb was very supportive of it, wasn't, was he not?

1:03:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, very supportive.

1:03:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:49 Speaker 2 So I, I wanna, I wanted to, I wanted to get back... Oh, you're s- so you were saying, so that's, that's how your-

1:03:54 Speaker 1 My connection to the rebbetzin.

1:03:56 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:03:56 Speaker 1 I just wanna give you-

1:03:56 Speaker 2 Yes

1:03:56 Speaker 1 ... briefly.

1:03:57 Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

1:03:57 Speaker 1 So the cousins came here for Pesach. They stayed with us.

1:04:01 Speaker 2 Your hu- your husband's cousins.

1:04:03 Speaker 1 My husband's cousins, yeah.

1:04:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:04 Speaker 1 So the two women wanted to see the rebbetzin. So I called my father. My father used to call the rebbetzin every single day to see how she is, every morning.

1:04:16 Speaker 2 Your, your father?

1:04:16 Speaker 1 My father. As a matter of fact, you know, my father built the Ohel Rachamim in Seven Seventy, right?

1:04:21 Speaker 2 Yes. So he-

1:04:22 Speaker 1 So the rebbetzin con- he consulted the rebbetzin, and she gave him ideas about how to-

1:04:27 Speaker 2 Wait, so when was your father zechus the rebbetzin? From that time of your cousins or from already before?

1:04:31 Speaker 1 No, my father was very close to the rebbetzin for years already.

1:04:35 Speaker 2 The rebbetzin Chana or?

1:04:36 Speaker 1 Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka.

1:04:38 Speaker 2 Mushka.

1:04:38 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:04:39 Speaker 2 From, back from Russia.

1:04:41 Speaker 1 No.

1:04:41 Speaker 2 From here.

1:04:42 Speaker 1 Never. Yeah.

1:04:43 Speaker 2 From here. So he would call-

1:04:44 Speaker 1 He never saw her in Russia.

1:04:45 Speaker 2 Right. So he would call her every day.

1:04:47 Speaker 1 Every day, we just talked for a few minutes, you know. Sometimes a little longer.

1:04:51 Speaker 2 Just to see how she's doing.

1:04:52 Speaker 1 Just to, you know, just to have a... Just to say hi.

1:04:56 Speaker 2 What was the motivation?

1:04:57 Speaker 1 I don't know. Just like this.

1:04:59 Speaker 2 Just like this.

1:05:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:05:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:05:01 Speaker 1 And she respected him tremendously. You'll hear from the way she respond. Anyway, so I called my father, and I said, "My cousins wanna see the rebbetzin. Could you give me the rebbetzin's number?" And what do you think he said?

1:05:13 Speaker 2 No.

1:05:14 Speaker 1 No.

1:05:15 Speaker 2 He hadn't learned-

1:05:16 Speaker 1 No.

1:05:16 Speaker 2 He hadn't lear- He, he, he knew, he, he-

1:05:18 Speaker 1 So what do I do?

1:05:19 Speaker 2 He, he knew-

1:05:19 Speaker 1 My father says no.

1:05:20 Speaker 2 He knew how to say no.

1:05:21 Speaker 1 It's no.

1:05:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:23 Speaker 1 He said it very clearly. He wasn't hinting.

1:05:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:27 Speaker 1 So I bought a dozen roses, and I wrote a Yiddish letter on my beautiful stationery, and I sent my daughter to the rebbetzin's house with a note saying that there are two cousins who came from Russia, they're here for Pesach, and they would love to meet the rebbetzin. If it's possible, here's my telephone number. And she delivered it, and she came home. A half an hour later, the phone rings, and it's the rebbetzin. And she said-

1:05:57 Speaker 2 How did she introduce herself?

1:05:59 Speaker 1 She said, "Mrs. Schneerson." She called herself.

1:06:01 Speaker 2 "This is M- this is Mrs. Schneerson."

1:06:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. So she said to me, "Why did you send me flowers?" So I told her the story about my father. She said, "A kluger yid. He's a smart man." Her own daughter, you're not gonna give, you know, your favorite daughter... I'm not the favorite, I'm the oldest. So that's how I started with the rebbetzin. She called me. Finally, I had her number, and, um, they met for two hours, over two hours. She didn't-

1:06:34 Speaker 2 Your cousins.

1:06:35 Speaker 1 With the rebbetzin. I was also there, but I didn't open my mouth. She spoke to them in Russian. She just loved... She, first of all, the Rebbe and the rebbetzin love Russian Jews, I mean, like-

1:06:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:46 Speaker 1 ... with a passion.

1:06:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:47 Speaker 1 They love everybody.

1:06:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:49 Speaker 1 But Russian Jews is a passion.

1:06:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:52 Speaker 1 So, so she spoke to, oh, she asked them all the detail, 'cause these two women were some of the girls that were really revolutionary. They, they marched in the street, and they were thr- thrown out of their jobs, you know? And they really were very active there. So she wanted to know all the details. It was so beautiful. That was my first contact with the rebbetzin. After that, I spoke to her, you know, a few times.

1:07:20 Speaker 2 Hmm. So you were, so you were saying, you were saying earlier y- about, about... Which is a very interesting thing to me, this idea that clothing back in Russia didn't mean anything. Um, 'cause I, I actually had seen a picture recently of a Lubavitch family, a quite, a quite well-known Lubavitch family, and you see, like, the husband is with a long beard and a casket and a long coat, and his wife, it's pretty apparent, I don't know for sure, but 95% sure that she's not-

1:07:51 Speaker 1 Covering

1:07:52 Speaker 2 ... covering her hair, right? And, uh, like you said, like, you, you see that, you think you can, uh, understand the person, but she probably was going to mikvah in ice water, which is very interesting.

1:08:04 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:08:04 Speaker 2 Right? And, and that's-

1:08:05 Speaker 1 That's why I said people have to understand.

1:08:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:07 Speaker 1 If you don't know the Russian Jews-

1:08:09 Speaker 2 Right

1:08:09 Speaker 1 ... then you don't understand this because especially by the other Chassidim, clothes are everything.

1:08:15 Speaker 2 Right. So no, so you said that, that translated here, that translated here, and the f- the early years, it, it, people didn't But, but, but it has changed, right? It has changed over time.

1:08:28 Speaker 1 Of course.