Ep. 38 // “Finding the Rebbe’s Softer Voice” w/ Rabbi Berry Farkash

00:00 Speaker 1 The Rebbe spoke about the, the quality of the Rabbeim was 'V'rabimei shivim' of... That this was a outstanding quality of each one of our Rabbeim is being, you know, the one who brings people back from a path of mistakes and, and error. In order to cause a person to wanna move back to Yiddishkeit, but to move closer to Chassidishkeit if it's a bocher, there has to be a soften voice.

00:27 Speaker 2 Mm.

00:27 Speaker 1 It doesn't work any other way. If we're not gonna create a soft space for our bocher today to feel a sense of forgiveness, compassion , why should I wanna belong to any of this?

00:43 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. So we are here with Rabbi Berry Farkash. We are not quite in the Pacific Northwest out of like... It does feel like it, which is nice. I've never been there, but, uh, I've saw it here. Nice and rainy.

01:16 Speaker 1 They say it always rains.

01:17 Speaker 2 Always rains. It's true, huh?

01:18 Speaker 1 No. That's how they keep away people.

01:21 Speaker 2 Fair enough. Well, the way, yeah, the way you kept, the way... You didn't keep me away. The way I was kept away, it's just it's very far away, and I didn't, I didn't see myself going there for the near future. And then I heard that you were here in Upstate New York, and I reached out, and you were kind enough to make the time, and so here we are. You are by far bo- the most mentioned name on this podcast at this point. In the young age of this podcast. It may go away. Someone else may take my-

01:51 Speaker 1 You have no idea how that happens.

01:52 Speaker 2 You have no idea how that happened? Well...

01:55 Speaker 1 I'll find out maybe today.

01:56 Speaker 2 It happened. It happened. Yeah, So let's, let's, let's begin, let's begin a little bit the, the background. The background, where you grew up, who you are, how we ended up here.

02:11 Speaker 1 Okay. So Farkash, it's a new Lubavitcher name since the mid-ninth- 19- 1970s. My father was known for his sefarim, his halacha, large family, um, altogether 17 brothers and sisters. I actually am from the latter one, so I'm, uh, child number 10, boy number seven. My brothers are well-known, you know. Each one of them is a metzius, a character, uh, personality. This one with chassidus, this one with chesed, this one with, uh, Rabbonis. And I, uh, I was number seven. And growing up in a mishpacha where everybody is artistic, everybody is talented, everybody is, everybody's a somebody, it's a, it's a space to, uh, to figure out your own, uh, existence in all of that. My father, that's a, we have a whole podcast just about him. My father's outstanding quality is, besides lumdis and all of that, is the known qualities. He's a non-conformist. Be'etzem mehuso, in his very essence. He's a person that independent. That's how we moved from a Hungarian family, and he went to Toldos Aharon. And being completely deep in the Toldos Aharon universe, like the personal assistant to the Toldos Aharon Rebbe, his gabai, his right hand, and then taking this 180 to Lubavitch with my mother who was Neturei Karta, you know, the Baumol boy's granddaughter. It's not just the gats and the chutzpah, it's a personality. It's a person who is completely independent thinker.

04:14 Speaker 2 Right.

04:14 Speaker 1 Non-conformist, and his learning and his writing is also the same style. This is why it's so, people are so taken by his writing and his halacha, because he's very independent. You understand? You grow up in a house like this, that's the, the avir. That's the space you are in. So I think that had a tremendous influence on myself, and on all my siblings as well. Everyone is doing something-

04:47 Speaker 2 Right

04:47 Speaker 1 ... that changes the world.

04:50 Speaker 2 That changes the world. So how do you change the world?

04:56 Speaker 1 So to my children, I'm a father. To my wife, I'm a husband. I went on shlichus. I don't think I had any intention to change the world. That wasn't me, and treated it with a lot of humility, simplicity. But, uh, I think about f- seven years ago when I landed on this, uh, new hat of being a therapist, this is where everything kinda like changes for me, for my shlichas, for the people I make contact with. It becomes like a whole new way of viewing myself and viewing the world around me.

05:43 Speaker 2 How did that happen? Was it, was it a, was it, uh, uh, looking for parnassa? Was it a lack of satisfaction with what you were doing on shlichus? Like how do you end up falling into... You don't, you don't just fall into therapy. You have to... Maybe you fell into it initially. How did that happen?

05:59 Speaker 1 So this is a very hard question because it touches on a lot of pain that happened in the region that I'm a shliach That I was a part of a very particular situation where there was a need of a loblavature therapist.

06:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:22 Speaker 1 And we would try, we tried different directions how to figure out the situation, and not to put any judgment calls on anybody because all the adults in the room, everybody was doing whatever they needed in order to figure out a very, very difficult situation. I was the youngest that was chosen to be part of that group was to figure out what to do in that situation. And the Gemara says, "Arei seita b'kilkula ya'azaras min ha'ayin," and when you deal with something that is that painful, suddenly I realized, where am I in all of this?

06:54 Speaker 2 Right.

06:55 Speaker 1 And I was teaching Tanya for close to 15 years in s- a pl- in a school called The Wellness Institute. They teach hypnotherapy. They teach all sorts of breathwork. It's a very... It's accredited school, but they teach really all these new forms of therapy. I have never touched anything of what they teach.

07:17 Speaker 2 Mm.

07:17 Speaker 1 The owner was a Jewish woman, Diane Zebroff, and I just went. I gave my Tanya class. There was professors. There was participation. People liked the spirituality. It actually fit in very much to their transpersonal psychology that they were all involved in, Jungian style of... And I stayed away from it. That was for me, it was like I'm coming, I'm doing my shlichas, I leave. This entire story unfolded. I went over to one of those leaders of that school to just get counseling about how to handle the situation. And they said, "How about training?" They said, "You know, just take a six-day training that we give it. It's just for... It's usually being given for professors, for psychiatrists, for psychologists. Take a six-day training and just learn a little bit how to just identify, how to treat a little bit." And I got into it. I went to the sixth day. I signed up for the sixth day. I didn't realize that you are on the mat. It's experiential from the moment you walk in.

08:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:22 Speaker 1 I have never thought in my life that I need any form of therapy. I'm happy. I'm clear. I'm a shliach. It's a day after Simchat Torah. I'm rocking and rolling. I need therapy? I am a therapist. I don't need therapy. But it's part of the study, you know? You have to be client, therapist. It's part of... That's how they teach those me- those methods. And I'm laying down on then the mat, and I'm like, "I have nothing to talk about." I'm in besichla, betuv leivav. Life is good. And the way it works is because it's hypnotherapy, again, the, the word hypno is a shem hamushul here. It's not hypnosis what you hear, you know, you know, where they hypnotize you. It's just putting you in a light trance, and you get to not be in your, in your conscious mind. It's more bringing up unconscious or subconscious stuff. And within a couple of minutes into the session, I was like, stuff starts surfacing without me having any control over it. And it was some real deep pain, old pain, really old pain.

09:33 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:35 Speaker 1 And it's one session, and then there is the following hours, another session, and I'm like, at this time already I'm, I'm going through my own healing already. I'm already in my own healing space. I'm not thinking about being a therapist. I'm already... Now it's about, about what's happening with me. After the six days, they offered to really come and study. They said, "You're a rabbi. You don't have to have major credentials." And because you're already there for 20 years in, uh, whatever, 15 years at that time, you, they know me. They will allow me to participate and take the full two-year internship and actually receive whatever, and if I wanna go and become LCSW, and that's my own business. It's not academia. And I got into it. I went. It was long weekends and many days of... But I didn't do it on my own. I, uh, immediately when I saw how powerful it is, first of all, I have a Salagor, Rabbi Mashbia. I have my brother Asher who was never really a brother to me. He was always a... my mentor, my spiritual teacher, my... Since before, since I'm a child, you know? We're 10 years difference between us. Went to him for guidance, and I w- went to meet Manus, Manus Friedman. Said, "I'm gonna sit down with... Maybe he understands about healing. Maybe he can guide me." Spent a couple hours with him, and he said, "Or you getting all into it, and you're actually learning it kidabal meda or just

11:13 Speaker 1 don't do it. We have enough, uh, dabblers. We have enough of people who are putting on a name tag. So are you studying it, and you're getting all into it or just call it off?"

11:27 Speaker 2 Right.

11:27 Speaker 1 Now here comes the whole piece of like shliach, therapist. This is inner turmoil, that the only way to settle that is having some spiritual guidance from our Salagor, Rabbi Mashbia. You can't... I can't... There's shame around it, like Far kashe, therapist, very... I remember having to send out my first email about that. Literally like a free-for-all. And-

11:58 Speaker 2 You sent an email to who?

11:59 Speaker 1 To let people know that I am actually s- I have to let my community know that I am-

12:04 Speaker 2 Oh, your community

12:04 Speaker 1 ... that I'm going to study. This is people that I'm a shliach with them, you know?

12:10 Speaker 2 Right.

12:11 Speaker 1 Sent out a mass email letting you know that I'm gonna take some time to study this.

12:16 Speaker 2 Right.

12:17 Speaker 1 I mean, I... That's what I felt And also I was guided by that. It's part of my responsibility. I can't just walk away and start learning, becoming a therapist. You're a shliach. That's your prime. It's a

12:28 Speaker 2 Right.

12:29 Speaker 1 You took upon yourself to be a shliach, and this is hundreds of people that you're in contact with, and you gotta let them know.

12:35 Speaker 2 So someone else became the shliach there? You-

12:37 Speaker 1 No

12:37 Speaker 2 ... you, you left the-

12:38 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no

12:39 Speaker 2 ... you're saying you were just letting them know that you were-

12:40 Speaker 1 That I am going to-

12:41 Speaker 2 ... taking some time

12:42 Speaker 1 ... take time. I'm going to be here. I'm, everything, all, everybody's needs will be met.

12:46 Speaker 2 Right.

12:47 Speaker 1 But I'm going to study this.

12:49 Speaker 2 Right.

12:49 Speaker 1 And I got immediately a call letting me know is, "What is this all about?"

12:53 Speaker 2 From another shliach?

12:54 Speaker 1 No, from authority. From someone who has authority over me.

12:57 Speaker 2 Okay.

12:58 Speaker 1 And legitimately.

13:00 Speaker 2 All right.

13:00 Speaker 1 And he says, "You can do this, but this has to be with a rov, a

13:06 Speaker 2 Right

13:06 Speaker 1 ... someone who looks over what you're doing. That's the only way I can feel that I'm okay with this." And it was for me a very, very power- Hey listen, I'm over 40,

13:18 Speaker 2 Right

13:18 Speaker 1 ... I'm not looking to destroy the world. And it was for me a moment of like saying to myself, "You know what? " You need to have a rov. You need to have someone who knows hilchas therapy. And by the way, there's halachas for it. How to treat people, how to-

13:38 Speaker 2 Mm

13:38 Speaker 1 ... there's many, many halachas that there's to be known.

13:41 Speaker 2 But what are people usually most, were concerned about? Like

13:43 Speaker 1 They don't know what they're concerned about. I also didn't know what to be concerned about. I was so oblivious.

13:51 Speaker 2 I'm saying if you had gone to an EMT course, you think you'd have gotten the same phone call?

13:54 Speaker 1 So that's the thing. Of a, people are suspicious of

13:56 Speaker 2 So that's what it is

13:57 Speaker 1 ... I am suspicious of

13:59 Speaker 2 Okay. So that's what it is. That-

14:01 Speaker 1 With can come all sorts of things.

14:03 Speaker 2 No, I understand, but the Eastern's therapies, these cultures, that's what people are-

14:07 Speaker 1 Questions of kibbud av. Questions of lashon hara. Questions of being-

14:14 Speaker 2 Kibbud av 'cause you're talking to someone about your father?

14:18 Speaker 1 People sitting in a group-

14:20 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:20 Speaker 1 ... who know each other.

14:21 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

14:22 Speaker 1 And there's information in group therapy.

14:24 Speaker 2 Right. I understand.

14:25 Speaker 1 Where there's major questions in halacha about, again, you're in a healing setting.

14:30 Speaker 2 Right.

14:31 Speaker 1 Who gave you a heter to speak about your father with all the anger and hatred and whatever comes up in a deep session, and there is a bunch of ears listening to that.

14:43 Speaker 2 Right.

14:44 Speaker 1 Again, this is halacha questions-

14:45 Speaker 2 Uh, interesting

14:45 Speaker 1 ... but I'm not here to, I'm not a l- a halacha authority. But when he told me, "You have a rov on your side." I'm, again, I'm a son of a rov. But my father doesn't pasken on, on those type of halachas.

14:55 Speaker 2 Right.

14:56 Speaker 1 And I was searching who, who should be a rov, who knows those, who understands a little bit about that universe of therapy, and someone introduced me to Rabbi Alman.

15:06 Speaker 2 Sure.

15:06 Speaker 1 And I spent several hours on the phone with him back and forth explaining him the modality, explaining what I do on those weekends. Now, there is interactions between male and female. I'm not just treating male clients. It's not just m- It, it's a group of 34 professors. Some of them are women.

15:26 Speaker 2 Right.

15:28 Speaker 1 So having this of having over you a spiritual authority who is not just a mashpia,

15:34 Speaker 2 Right

15:34 Speaker 1 ... gives you the Chassidishe guidance about what does it mean, how are you gonna define the shliach therapy space. But knowing that what you're doing is, there is a Shulchan Aruch, there's halacha, and you're doing it in the right way. That was a very important piece.

15:50 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is a Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlamedia. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Ve'eti Tzjni, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad House and community. Share the message and vision of Ve'eti Tzjni with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. What about the piece of the realization that... 'Cause the way you, you started the story with, with there being an issue with another shliach in the area, and realizing that the tools that you thought you had or the f- or the idea that you had adequate tools that you thought you had, um, turns out to not be adequate, turns out to not be true. And you realize that these people who you've been up to this point preaching to and teaching and coming in with the shtolz of, "I'm the teacher, and I don't..." Like you said, the way you were m- the, the way you described it, that you went there to teach, you were, you weren't there to receive. You realize that suddenly they may, they may have some wisdom that, that you don't

17:22 Speaker 2 have, right? And that you could actually learn from them. I would imagine that besides the halachic and hashkafic questions, this really throws a monkey wrench into the identity of, of the shliach. Now, you're I mean, I just on a simple level, like the shliach is the teacher and you're spreading something, like now, now suddenly you're being, you're receiving from them? Like, it, the whole thing kind of turns upside down. You know, but yeah, I mean, at, on that level mainly.

17:59 Speaker 1 So first of all, what's, what was clear to me throughout, throughout is I am here as a shliach. My goal in, even in those circles where you sit with those therapists, I'm representing. I'm always representing.

18:16 Speaker 2 Right.

18:16 Speaker 1 If it's a or it's I, I am here as a someone who carries the name Lubavitch, or if I'm the one who carries the Rebbe's image, I'm always representing Now, there is a piece that was unbeknown to me. The Chassidus red ving a nefesh habhamis. But a nefesh habhamis that Chassidus talks about is a nefesh habhamis that is a nefesh habhamis. It's cultivated.

18:44 Speaker 2 Right.

18:45 Speaker 1 It's suggestible. There could be a conversation between that and the nefesh habekes. But sometimes there's a nefesh habhamis which is ripped apart because of pain, because of hurt, because of personal injury, because of behavior that went too far. Mir hatschen shving a nefesh habhamis bikhal. I had a vort that came through, I don't know, maybe someone said it before me, but it-- S'if Har HaNaveres, when you cry about Slach Lanu, when you go through one or two of those sessions, you realize there's nothing to do with Slach Lanu. It's completely Refoenu.

19:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

19:21 Speaker 1 You're praying at the wrong part of davening. That's how the awareness was. The Aibishter meshib from lain mechil givem. You would forgive me in a second. You already forgave me. It's injury, it's pain, it's hurt, it's lack of-- The nefesh habhamis is a risin to, to klapt. And that piece with the Rebbe Nefashas, you know, the Alter Rebbe talks about the Rebbe Nefashas, says any spiritual teacher is supposed to be a Rebbe Nefasha, supposed to identify that, the chayirot, the, the, the, you know, the, all those... That was never attended to. Mit gered vegnis kashes, mit gered vegnavidas atfile, mit gered vegn rede. I mean, again, not even going back to the years that I was in yeshiva where the adults are in a lot of hurt and pain themselves. I'm entering Mesif the Tov Shin Nun Gimel. The year that I'm the most impressionate, my biological system is fully active. The only message you get is Chol Yenu Nosov v'Machaveinu Sovlom Tsof Adiri Al Atzmi V'Zemi Achan Shelko. And you're sitting with a bachur who is fighting biology with tooth and nail, and there's nobody to talk to. Not because there is-- I'm sure those people were ready to talk to me. Now, now I'm sure that they were a hundred percent ready. If I would go and sit down with one of them, with one of those adults, and talk about my inner turmoil at that time, they would love to address that with me. To soothe me and explain me that the

21:04 Speaker 1 Rebbe and the Aibishter loves me and everything is great, and I'm just dealing with biology like every other human being. But that atmosphere in those years, and I guess I give Al Gated, and I went from Lud, and then I went to Argentina, and then I went back to Al Gated. I was like... And I'm, and I'm in my nature, like my dad is, I'm a seeker, I'm a, I'm a vakash, you know, like I'm looking for, you say, Omsikt L'Babavitch. My being Omsikt L'Babavitch is the daven.

21:35 Speaker 2 Right.

21:35 Speaker 1 I'd be looking for someone to sit down and just like...

21:38 Speaker 2 Right.

21:39 Speaker 1 So you're showing up at the age of forty. However, by that time, I was thirty-six, thirty-seven. The Nefesh Habamis is a hacked of shtikler. There's no Nefesh Habamis really. I'm fighting against something that I have no kelem to fight. The therapy, this is where therapy plays its role. This is where we have to really define what therapy plays in the life of a Hasid, of a Yid. Therapy is just to get you Nefesh Habamis, to just be a Nefesh Habamis, and that's it. That's it.

22:08 Speaker 2 A Nefesh Habamis and not what?

22:10 Speaker 1 Not a chayirot, not a pereh adom, not a, not a, not what it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be a cultivated animal that is ready to wor- to work with you, with the struggles of an animal. Er vil essen, er vil shlafen, er vil zinding, er vil, er vil a zach zach.

22:30 Speaker 2 Fair enough, but the klutz kasha would be what about, what about, what about all the Hasidim beforehand? Why didn't they need therapy? I'm not, I'm not asking you to-

22:39 Speaker 1 That is, that is, that is... Let me... Again, this is a bit coarse, it's fury, but I'll say whatever Rebbe Farkash believes in and-

22:49 Speaker 2 You're not the first one here.

22:50 Speaker 1 All right.

22:52 Speaker 2 Help yourself.

22:53 Speaker 1 All right. When a, when a Hasid praved Kism Shalomi, when a Hasid davened, this is one of the things that I saw. I saw Hasidim davening.

23:04 Speaker 2 Right.

23:05 Speaker 1 I saw Hasidim saying Kism Shalomi. I was a little obsessed with it. You know, you say Omsikt L'Babavitch. Standing on bleachers and watching the Rebbe was not my Omsikt L'Babavitch in-- when I grew up. I mean, Lubavitch was, in Yerushalayim at least, is growing up watching Hasidim, watching Shomanchin davening Shabbos afternoon. There was a certain longing to like, "I wanna be like this. I wanna daven like I saw Brother Asher davening, Zalman, some of my brothers who were daveners."

23:34 Speaker 2 Right.

23:36 Speaker 1 When a Hasid said Kism Shalomi then davened, and they were weeping. They were weeping with Kism Shalomi. I'm sure that Mendel was weeping, Bencher was weeping. When they were saying Kism Shalomi, they were weeping. In that weeping was Rechokai MiHashem, the distance between them and the Aibishter, all of those things it says in the service. But in that weeping went through a whole processing-

23:57 Speaker 2 Hmm

23:57 Speaker 1 ... of human emotions, losses, grief, anger, pain, whatever they were. They were processing that in that context of they were healthy, emotional people.

24:12 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:12 Speaker 1 They carried themselves. A Hasid is klug. A Hasid even a reines ach. Is a person who carried-- Now what happened? What happened? We had about thirty years of, of somehow we stopped this whole system of davening, and no blaming anybody. I can't even go there. But mir hat nisht ving daven, mir hat nisht ving Kism Shalomi. The Rebbe comes bim zayn, nebzer chevra, a selichah rav. And Mendel, rebbe mot tells me, Mendel was far bringing that sukkas when the Rebbe was koching a selichah rav. Voz vil the Rebbe fun uns? Says the Rebbe vil, a mezol uf vil uns zayn far machte eizone paskas. In Yiddish it means to stop being sealed iron safes. A safe. Keine ret nisht. No one talks to anybody.

25:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:07 Speaker 1 No one shares. The stark, a far bringen was supposed to be that space was buried. Who is davening? Who is saying Kirsh MuShalom Mite? So Hasidut Harav, if someone once a week, once in two weeks, you sit down,

25:22 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:24 Speaker 1 Kon does a choltz, the Rabbi Shmuel said he calls it nigey levavi. Lizdaver im chaveri benigey levavi. Do chet vasdu tzach. Okay. This was a bakashan nafshis by the reb. The reb used the term more than once about Hasidut Harav bakashan nafshis. Now we're holding 40 years later. You don't daven, you don't do Kirsh MuShalom Mite, you don't have Hasidut Harav, so you'll pay for therapy.

25:52 Speaker 2 So what happened? W- w- how did we go from the Hasidim that... Yeah, I mean, it's, it's takya shaila I always wondered about. H- how you hear these stories of these, of these people who, who would cry and, you know, on one hand very-- they fought the communists, they fought the KGB. They were not, they were not wimps. They were not, uh... They were, they were very masculine in that sense. But they also, like you said, Kirsh Mu- Kirsh MuShalom Mite, davening. There was, there was plenty of emotion. What happened? Why did everybody get so closed up? Just an, is it an American thing? Is it a... I mean, from my-

26:28 Speaker 1 Holocaust

26:28 Speaker 2 ... perspective. Holocaust.

26:29 Speaker 1 Pain, overwhelming.

26:31 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:33 Speaker 1 Jumping into action rather than being in a place of emotions. A maiseh oiker maybe. The, the, again, this is the... A maiseh oiker is, is, is the, is the holy side of it.

26:45 Speaker 2 Right.

26:45 Speaker 1 But the forgetfulness of no one said that a maiseh oiker comes in the expense of being a healthy human being. It is in tuned, aligned.

26:56 Speaker 2 But, but I mean, uh, look, if we're gonna be fair, if we're gonna be fair, you look at the fir- you know, the first Ma'amar Basilegani, it's Atikra V'ikra El Veyakra. So that's already a shift away from learning for yourself, but it's not just learning for yourself, it's taking care of yourself, and realizing that you can't only take care of yourself, you have to take care of others too-

27:17 Speaker 1 Yeah

27:17 Speaker 2 ... as a priority. And it's interesting because I was, I was listening to the Ma'amar a few weeks ago, a few months ago now, and when the reb was saying those words, he is crying. I always remember the reb was crying about the Darius and Shlib Chiraseno, Shlib Ritseneino, which makes more sense. He's crying about the Fidik Rebbe, but why is he crying at the words Atikra V'ikra El Veyakra? And to me, I mean, the, the answer is very obvious. The reason he's crying is because that's what he's experiencing right now. He's turning from a life that he had up to that point where he had far more time for himself, even though that was already changing in the few years before the Neseus when he was working for America's, but he still was more or less had his own time, and now he would, he wouldn't have his time, or at least not nearly as much. And, but he, he embraced that, and he made that the, one of the central ideas of, of, of his Hasidus, right? And then, I mean, when you were talking earlier about, about feelings, the first thing that came to my head, not as a rebuttal to what you were saying, but you know, just instinctively, you know, the Ma'amar of LeZiya Mishakela, right? The famous Ma'amar of, of there's no time to think about Chesben, Che- Chesbenefesh and these things, Vu- Vuduhaus and, and these things. You just have to, you just have to be a Mali

28:38 Speaker 2 LeKavan. I don't remember the exact lotion, but something to that effect. Right? So I mean, there is something there. Now, didn't, is that part of it?

28:47 Speaker 1 So, uh, my crowd that I'm dealing with is all Ahavat Yisroel. I mean, I started originally, you know, the first two years of the internship, I... It was all sorts of people, non-Jews, and then COVID hit, and I got my f- my first opportunity to be with someone from our community.

29:05 Speaker 2 You're saying remotely?

29:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

29:07 Speaker 2 Right.

29:07 Speaker 1 Doing hypnotherapy remote was a whole Chiddush for itself, and-

29:11 Speaker 2 It works?

29:11 Speaker 1 ... basically that was the whole... My class, my graduating class was the ones who kind of like discovered how to do holotropic breathwork online and doing... Again, it's a whole new way of learning it, and maybe Bagav HaParates I was put in because I was one of the students who came up with all sorts of ideas how to do it in the most efficient way for the entire COVID time, and now it's 100% remote.

29:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

29:37 Speaker 1 It ends up being even more gratifying because the client is in his own space, in his own house.

29:43 Speaker 2 Right.

29:43 Speaker 1 He doesn't have to come to my office. He doesn't have to get used to my light or the space to... Anyways, going back to what you're saying. So the, with Lubavitchers, the language is very different.

29:54 Speaker 2 Mm.

29:56 Speaker 1 The way I... And Lo Hei Ri DeSheshchino L'maato Ba'aretz, that's for me Basilegani.

30:03 Speaker 2 Right.

30:04 Speaker 1 There's no more spiritual bypass. You can't act and run a Chabad house and be the person who is completely immersed in action. And right below your throat, where your heart is, where your being is, I'm not even talking about your children and your wife.

30:24 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:24 Speaker 1 It's obvious that the, that maybe existed in those years where we needed to kind of like march forward, you know, the bulldozers of the '50s and the '60s who had to pave out the way so we can come with our sophisticated JLIs and our C teams. I understand that they needed to completely bypass emotions-

30:41 Speaker 2 Right

30:41 Speaker 1 ... and be full of conviction. Mechipel Hashem, you know, they are running ahead. Nishtoken vibe, nishtoken kinder, nishtoken taten, nishtoken mameh. There's none of it because-

30:52 Speaker 2 It's only, it's only one of them. Come on.

30:54 Speaker 1 No. All of them in a certain level.

30:56 Speaker 2 Okay.

30:56 Speaker 1 In a certain level. And again, Bneiym uVneiseiym v'chol asher lohem. Who are, grew up with a tati who was left the house on Sunday, returned for Shabbos. The wife and the kids were not really part of the shlichas. There was most like shtuck. They had to live that way.

31:14 Speaker 2 Right.

31:14 Speaker 1 The Rebbe had to s- p- you know, when the army goes now in, first thing they send the D9-ers, those big tractors. It's not sophisticated people.

31:23 Speaker 2 Right.

31:23 Speaker 1 That's people, their job is to push it, duch brechen. After that comes the snipers, the sophisticate.

31:30 Speaker 2 Right.

31:30 Speaker 1 Lehiras Hashchinah lima'alah ba'aretz means right now, at least in my universe, when I s- I can only speak about Vayifatch. Is to be able to act in your shlichas all heartily.

31:43 Speaker 2 Mm.

31:44 Speaker 1 It's emotional, it's sensational, it's intellectual, it's real. My feet are on the ground. It's not anymore the hu-ha, yibnenem, einenem. I, I have that language. Just the, the ufratsta language is the overarching metzias or like, shtock g- not taking no for an answer kind of like, because that's, uh, l'chatchilah ritter. The Rebbe speaks in the Maamarim of Pesach is there is the kibor hachom, but then there is the v'etseisi, v'etsalti, v'gealti. There's this process, and this takes time.

32:19 Speaker 2 Right.

32:20 Speaker 1 And for the emotional work to be able to be a person of the Amida lehem is to be in the place of like looking at your wife and saying, "Okay, I'm not going out to give a class tonight," or, "I'm gonna go out anyways, and it's gonna hurt."

32:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

32:37 Speaker 1 That honesty, to be able to look at your children and say, "Tati really wants to be with you tonight, but I have a commitment to someone." And to watch your kids looking at you in pain, and you tell them it hurts. That lima'alah ba'aretz type of mentality, this is where at least I needed a healing. And probably most of the people that I'm working with, if you wanna pinpoint what's the issue that I'm always coming against with, especially those who are highly active, is to be compassionate with themself, to be compassionate with their work. There is this overdrive completely bypasses what happens in their-

33:27 Speaker 2 What do you mean by compassionate?

33:30 Speaker 1 Compassionate is the allowing of the messiness of not being sure-

33:38 Speaker 2 Hmm

33:38 Speaker 1 ... what's happening. The idea that I always have to know, I always have to be on the ball.

33:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

33:45 Speaker 1 Alemole v'zayin klar. I know exactly what to say and how to say it. Not necessarily.

33:52 Speaker 2 Hmm.

33:53 Speaker 1 I mean, the description was, that I told you before about Ben Teshatem, the, and is, uh, y- the pain of having to go away from the house without saying goodbye from the, from the Fravel Sudak, uh, episode. That's real. It's messy.

34:10 Speaker 2 Right.

34:10 Speaker 1 We can gang a fan Rebbe mean fire and vasser, but they were never bypassing the love, the compassion. There was forgiveness there. There was anguish. There w- That, that's messy. That's human.

34:22 Speaker 2 Right.

34:22 Speaker 1 How do we, how do we run away from our human being and operate? I mean, it was survival mode. I mean, I, I lived with parents who experienced the losses. Yeah, my sisters, and they, they lost a child. And I knew that for survival mode, my father needed to... He had a house full of kids, and there was no place for pain, grief, emotion. Now, I paid a price for that. That's my personal mic drop story today. I'm not gonna share . But to see and understand that this was just part of their way of having to deal with it, I have no anger towards that. I have no judgment towards that. My grandparents, Holocaust survivors, that's how they had to live their life.

35:06 Speaker 2 Right.

35:06 Speaker 1 There was no emotions, marching orders, mitut v'smidav, and that's it.

35:11 Speaker 2 Right.

35:12 Speaker 1 Lehiras Hashchinah lima'alah ba'aretz becomes now so real because doesn't work any other way. You try. You can try.

35:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:22 Speaker 1 But you get smacked around from your balabatim, you get smacked around from your family.

35:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, that, talking about that episode about, about my, my Zayde Ben Sheh, um, yeah, that, that, that... It, it is fascinating that the man who, or one of the men who stared down KGB agents and scared down... And, and so it was interesting for me, you know, maybe, maybe it's a davar pashut for others. But, you know, I grew up hearing about the KGB and Stalin through the prism of Lubavitch, which is this enemy that we fought. And so in a way, it makes Hasidim bigger, but it also makes the KGB smaller 'cause like, you're like, you think, yeah, you think they were, they, you think they were just like a g- out to get the Lubavitchers, and then you start reading Gulag Archipelago or whatever you read, the Solzhenitsyn, whatever you're reading about the, about the Soviets from outside, and you realize, "My God, these guys were scary monsters." This was, this was crazy. I mean, it, it's in a way a Holocaust, just a very different, more like a mental kind of... But I don't wanna compare, but it was crazy. And they stared it down, but my Zayde couldn't stare down the death of his wife. Like everyone that knew him said aft- you know, everyone that knew him in England afterwards said that he's a haba mensch. Yeah.

36:54 Speaker 1 So, so this is what that interview did to me. That interview from Fravel Sudak, I believe every seminary girl should learn and every bocher should listen to.

37:04 Speaker 2 We're getting there.

37:05 Speaker 1 What's, what's the, what's the, what's the power of that interview? It's not that it humanized for us Ben Shem Tov.

37:14 Speaker 2 Right.

37:16 Speaker 1 Okay, we have to take every holy cow and we have to slaughter it. No.

37:19 Speaker 2 Right.

37:20 Speaker 1 That's the job of the WhatsApp groups, you know? We have to That's not okay.

37:24 Speaker 2 Right.

37:25 Speaker 1 But what it did to me was someone who grew around... I was in Miami around Tomitim Shem Tov. I was, I was around that environment of that, like, the black and white world where there is no compassion for mistake.

37:40 Speaker 2 Right.

37:41 Speaker 1 Those words,

37:44 Speaker 2 Right.

37:45 Speaker 1 That word, that sentence-

37:47 Speaker 2 That's terrible. That's such a terrible sentence. Terrible

37:49 Speaker 1 ... it's a sentence that, you know, talk about shame and hurt-

37:54 Speaker 2 Oh, I know

37:54 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and, uh, and not just when a, when you are dealing with biology and you find out the . I'm talking about, like, you're sitting a bachur went, and he opened up an umbrella by the oil. I'm not disclosing any information from any of my clients, but a guy opened up an umbrella by the oil, and the older bachur who sits, looks at him bringing, "Stayed by my oil, opens up an umbrella." Now-

38:21 Speaker 2 Right

38:21 Speaker 1 ... to know... Okay, I'm not gonna go

38:24 Speaker 2 No, that's about it.

38:25 Speaker 1 But to, but to know-

38:26 Speaker 2 I'm just laughing at the story. Uh, this bachur is copying a Hasid playing, role-playing some bizarre even- I mean, just

38:34 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay. But growing up with that rigid-

38:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's-

38:39 Speaker 1 ... black and white image of what a Hasid is, and suddenly finding out, like I said before, the word, the messiness of that.

38:46 Speaker 2 Right.

38:46 Speaker 1 This is the vibe. Now, by the way, I don't know if it's true or not, because I'm not that, but people say that the Memches experience, the Chof Beis Shvat experience caused a lot of people who were very in tuned with the... Like, I talk, and it has such an effect.

39:06 Speaker 2 On the Rebbe?

39:07 Speaker 1 On the Rebbe. Now that I know, I don't have the information, the data on that, but I heard that from-

39:11 Speaker 2 There are pictures

39:12 Speaker 1 ... more than one person.

39:12 Speaker 2 There are pictures.

39:13 Speaker 1 So-

39:13 Speaker 2 You, you, you, you, you, you, you don't data that the Rebbe was deeply affected or data that people-

39:21 Speaker 1 You know, there's things that I don't

39:22 Speaker 2 I don't-

39:23 Speaker 1 You know?

39:23 Speaker 2 But I was gonna, but I was gonna ask you though, because I, I, I mean, if you don't wanna talk about it, I understand why not, and I'm not sure that it's smart for anyone to talk about it. But I mean, can we really exist in a world where we... Like you said, it's, the goal is not to slaughter holy cows and to say, "Oh, you see, the Rebbe was also human," which anyway, it- obviously he was. He was a human being.

39:47 Speaker 1 He was the most human being.

39:48 Speaker 2 Right. Right. But so it's not like a, it's, to me that's, that's, that's not even a, a, there's no word there, right? But the goal is not here to, to, to, to ... to look for, for, for like stem cynicism. But can we really live in a world... You're, you're, you're, you're suggesting that, that Hasidim no longer have Stalin to fight, so if they're gonna act like they're fighting Stalin when they're not fighting Stalin, they're just gonna end up, they're gonna end up being hard people with none of the realness of their grandparents. They're just, they're, they're, they're-

40:22 Speaker 1 And this is what you're introducing in an interview. You're introducing the realness. I call it the messiness because it carries in it the-

40:30 Speaker 2 It is messy

40:31 Speaker 1 ... the uncertainty, the, the pain that existed between a husband and wife. Ashadar and his wife was just holding space for him, waiting for him to come home, having to feed him as coming, showing up to the house as a poor man. That complication, Baruch Hashem, we don't have to live that way. But like I told you before, when I have to walk out of the house or when my wife has to go attend as a mikveh attendant to someone, and she looks at my children or she looks at me, and she's like, "This is Ben Che walking away from home." Okay, it's we just

41:00 Speaker 2 Right

41:03 Speaker 1 ... For us, this is our anguish. This is our Mesirut Nefesh. This is our dealing with a rowdy parent in preschool or a problem with a child in our Chabad House fancy preschool where everybody's fed and everything is great, and there's money, and there's all of this. But they have to deal with this emotional turmoil of, like, owning up to Yoshlichus, not just dismissing someone. It's messy.

41:32 Speaker 2 It's very messy.

41:33 Speaker 1 We make mistakes.

41:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

41:35 Speaker 1 And we cry. How many nights... Again, this is pri- private stuff. How many nights, you know, my wife comes home from spending time with the preschool parents or something, and there's real pain. Like, "Why am I doing this?" You know?

41:51 Speaker 2 Right.

41:52 Speaker 1 "Let me just close down this whole thing." How many shlichus carry that pain every single day, like, "Why am I even sitting here?"

42:02 Speaker 2 I, I, I wanna talk about the shlichus thing, but I, I, I wanna come back to it, but I want, I wanna ask that question, uh, 'cause we, I, I wanna, I wanna s- be specific with the question. Can we, can we operate in a world where Hasidim are becoming more human or admitting their humanness if we at the same time insist that talking about the Rebbe that way is off limits? And I understand, by the way, the reasons. There, you know, there, there's, there's tradition in Yiddishkeit that you don't talk about tzadikim. You don't talk about even your Rosh Yeshiva. You don't forget about a Rebbe. You don't talk about them. They, they ... you leave them alone. But, but the, the, the, the paradox here is that on one hand, in, in, in Chassidus, the Rebbe is so much higher than, than a Has- than a Hasid compared to, let's say, even a Rosh Yeshiva and a Talmud. But on the other hand, the Rebbe is like also the model. He's so much closer, right? And so how could, how can you have a, a Chassidus where, where, where the Chassidim are, as you're saying, becoming just more honest about what they're going through when, for example, this whole Parsha Chof Beis Shvat is off limits? I mean- It, it's, besides the fact that it was all in public, so... And, and never spoke about it, and you could see it on his face, and I wasn't even there. I'm saying, well, b-

43:20 Speaker 2 but it, it's so... And you see, I mean, this, this is my read of it. The whole kind of push that suddenly, like, the rebbetzin, rebbetzin, rebbetzin af- which started then. No one's gonna convince... Everybody knows it started then.

43:34 Speaker 1 Of course.

43:35 Speaker 2 I mean, that's, that is... What, what's the word? That is deflection 101. You don't wanna deal with what you're seeing in front of your face, so now you're, you're making it some kind of heilige ku- heiligheid kufur or something, when really just this man who you love and you admire is, is s- is, is in pain in a way that you can't help him, and there's nothing you could do. You see, with-

43:59 Speaker 1 So with, with personal, with personal journeying, meaning to say when a person, a Bachasid, goes through, uh, his own emotional journey and he connects to his own emotions, you know that. You know what happened on 14th. You maybe don't wanna talk about it. But you know. You know, when we watched Lapine Sicha-

44:31 Speaker 2 Right

44:31 Speaker 1 ... everybody knew. Everybody knew. Nobody had a, had a mistake that the most incredible human being on planet Earth. And I sit with clients, and I'm gonna say it, 'cause... So part of the hypnotherapy is to... The beginning of the process is to c- find resources for the client. Who loves you?

44:55 Speaker 2 Right.

44:55 Speaker 1 Where do you feel love? Where do you feel spiritual connection? And the word Rebbe, for a lot of people, especially people who are shluchim or very demanding figure. "Oh, the Rebbe, the Rebbe." I, I need just therapy just on that word.

45:15 Speaker 2 That's true.

45:16 Speaker 1 And I'm okay with that because it was part of my personal journey, too.

45:20 Speaker 2 Right.

45:21 Speaker 1 Because I was a kid by the Rebbe at 70th and 10th. The only time I was by the Rebbe was 70th and 10th 'cause my father took the whole family, and the Rebbe didn't smile to me.

45:30 Speaker 2 But you went for like a or something?

45:32 Speaker 1 I went for, I went for . My father went for dollars twice, and I watched the pictures of those dollars, and there was a little horror in my face.

45:42 Speaker 2 And there was smile to everybody else or he just-

45:44 Speaker 1 Rebbe communicates my father always. My father was always a conversation.

45:48 Speaker 2 And the other brothers?

45:50 Speaker 1 I don't know.

45:51 Speaker 2 But you-

45:51 Speaker 1 I was... Again, this is right after my... And personally, my sister passed away a couple months before. It, it connects a lot to my personal, spiritual, emotional journey.

46:03 Speaker 2 Right.

46:05 Speaker 1 But there's something in me that wants... I want a little, a little more. It's been test, you know, the Rebbe and his... He's still in Aveilus. He still have his hair. Rebbe actually took a haircut that time. And I'm, like, passing by another dollar, so I'm like, "I, I give him-"

46:18 Speaker 2 Give me something.

46:19 Speaker 1 A li- I don't know, just even eye contact. I, I-

46:22 Speaker 2 Right

46:22 Speaker 1 ... and, and I already telling myself, you know, "I think he knows what I'm up to." That shame language of like, "I think the Rebbe knows what I'm thinking."

46:33 Speaker 2 You felt that then?

46:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is, this is a nine-year-old thinking, and it's pretty vivid because it's pretty impressionate, and it's a very huge thing in my life.

46:44 Speaker 2 And that's also the only time you saw the Rebbe before the stroke?

46:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I never saw... I never went to New York before that. And after that was when we went to New York, after that it was already after Chabad another, before Thomas. Now, fast-forward, again, this is a therapy session. I'm sitting at a therapy session, and my therapist, who is not Jewish, knows that one of the most influential people in my life is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and I'm talking about something that hurts me, and I can't get a grip of it. And she says, "What would the Rebbe say?" She asks me, and she's not Jewish. She says, "What would the Rebbe say?"

47:25 Speaker 2 Right.

47:27 Speaker 1 I'm like... And she tells me. Again, I'm in, I'm in a trance. This is, this is hypnotherapy, so I'm in a trance.

47:32 Speaker 2 What, what's a trance? Is music playing?

47:34 Speaker 1 No, you just breathe and you're quiet. You're meditative state, like being in a Zabaninas state.

47:40 Speaker 2 Right.

47:40 Speaker 1 And she said, "How about turn towards the Rebbe?"

47:44 Speaker 2 Mm. Mm.

47:45 Speaker 1 "Let your eyes meet his eyes." I'm, I'm gonna s... So, so I said, so in my mind it is like, "He doesn't wanna look at me."

47:56 Speaker 2 'Cause you're going back to that moment.

47:59 Speaker 1 Again, this is, this is pain. This is, this is-

48:01 Speaker 2 Right

48:01 Speaker 1 ... old stuff.

48:02 Speaker 2 Right.

48:03 Speaker 1 And she said, "Just allow a, a image of him where you know from all those pictures." I saw a lot of pictures of him. A soft picture of him. Just a soft picture of him.

48:13 Speaker 2 Huh.

48:15 Speaker 1 And okay, I'm like imagining the picture of the Rebbe leans over, the girl gives a lecha. And this is when everything changes for me. Again, this is, this is healing around the Rebbe-

48:27 Speaker 2 Right

48:27 Speaker 1 ... where suddenly I realize I don't stop smiling to you. Like, everything you have as a Hasid, as a Shliach, even this that you're sitting right now here in a, in a therapy session, you're writing Panim about your issues. You're writing letters. You're writing duchas. I'm very much part of your life. So with Lu- with, with Lubavitcher clients, a lot of times this nekuda of knowing that the Rebbe is rachmanus, Rebbe is compassionate. The Rebbe is loving, not to just to the person who drove up to Chabad House-

49:11 Speaker 2 Right

49:11 Speaker 1 ... but to you. That's more important than knowing that the Rebbe was... And again, yeah, this, uh, the Rebbe was sitting having tea with the rebbetzin, and he said that that was the most important hour of his day, like putting on tefillin. Gorgeous story.

49:26 Speaker 2 Right.

49:26 Speaker 1 What a human being. What does it have to do with me?

49:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

49:32 Speaker 1 So humanize me the Rebbe, you're not helping me much. Make the Rebbe to me soft, compassionate, forgiving. Make the Rebbe forgiving, that the Rebbe is a forgiving individual.

49:44 Speaker 2 Understanding.

49:45 Speaker 1 Understanding the complexity of you, the messiness of you.

49:48 Speaker 2 Right.

49:49 Speaker 1 Is that you're just trying. You're just trying to be a tati. You're trying to be a husband. You're trying to be a shliach in a world full of noise and distractions.

49:58 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, uh, absolutely. I, I think that's a very, very, um, very good answer. I, I don't think you're escaping the question. I think that's a good answer, um, in the sense that in many ways the debate that I was suggesting or that I c- that my question could have led to is, can we talk about the Rebbe or not? And what you're saying is, "Fine, have that conversation," but in a way that's irrelevant because you're not... The, the, the real, the real la- the real kind of dehumanization that's taken place is not so much the Rebbe himself, but the Rebbe and the Hasid. You know, it's interesting-

50:38 Speaker 3 The question is, what do you need from him? That's, that's the question. If someone starts talking about the human, non-human, what do you need from him right now?

50:48 Speaker 2 Right.

50:48 Speaker 3 And you know what I needed from him? I just needed a smile.

50:52 Speaker 2 Right.

50:52 Speaker 3 I needed him, him to tell me, "Berry, you're good."

50:56 Speaker 2 So why didn't he smile to you then? How do you answer that question? Hmm.

51:06 Speaker 3 Maybe he did. I was too much in pain, I didn't notice.

51:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

51:10 Speaker 3 Maybe I had too much anguish that... I mean, that's now.

51:14 Speaker 2 Right.

51:14 Speaker 3 'Cause of the healing journey, so I'm like thinking back. Like I... a lot of things I didn't notice. I didn't notice the people who came to me while I was going through, we spoke about biology, the biolog- biological sy- problems. There was people who actually came over to me and said, "Don't worry about it." I mean, I was reading letters of the Rebbe, where the Rebbe says, "Ya sei yachdite."

51:34 Speaker 2 Right.

51:35 Speaker 3 That that is the energy of it, like let go. But I didn't. When you're in pain-

51:42 Speaker 2 Right

51:42 Speaker 3 ... you don't listen. You don't hear. You listen, but it's a

51:46 Speaker 2 Yeah. The filter, the filter, the filter is very, very strong. The filter of, of the Rebbe being very vuredich is very, very strong, and one wonders where it came from and, and, and how it took such hold. And, and what makes it even more fascinating or more sad in a way is that there's a completely different filter, like you said, in the Chabad house, right? And, um-

52:14 Speaker 3 I will have to sometimes use it with client, with a Lubavitch. "Who is your bigger Balab- biggest Balabustah in your Chabad house?"

52:19 Speaker 2 Right.

52:19 Speaker 3 "The biggest Balabustah."

52:21 Speaker 2 Right.

52:22 Speaker 3 And they'll end up finding out that it's them, their wife. That's the biggest Balabustah.

52:28 Speaker 2 Right.

52:28 Speaker 3 If not for them, there is nothing happening at the Chabad house.

52:31 Speaker 2 I, I see. You turned it on its head.

52:32 Speaker 3 No, it's because the compassion is so available.

52:35 Speaker 2 For the Balabustah, right.

52:36 Speaker 3 They're n- we're dealing with people compassion is their second name.

52:40 Speaker 2 Right.

52:41 Speaker 3 They know a Shliach, the way he embraces-

52:44 Speaker 2 Yeah

52:44 Speaker 3 ... the way he forgives-

52:46 Speaker 2 Right

52:46 Speaker 3 ... the way he's passive about... And I said, "Who is your big..." I will ask that, "Who is your biggest Balabustah?" "Uh, Larry." "No, who's your biggest Balabustah? If not for him, there is nothing happening at your Chabad house. Who is that?"

53:01 Speaker 2 Right.

53:02 Speaker 3 "Oh, nothing happening, my wife."

53:03 Speaker 2 Right.

53:04 Speaker 3 "And who else?" "Oh, uh, you mean me, you mean to say me? I should say me?" I said, "You don't have to say that."

53:10 Speaker 2 Yeah.

53:10 Speaker 3 "But you know if you are not there-"

53:12 Speaker 2 Right

53:12 Speaker 3 ... there's nothing happening."

53:14 Speaker 2 Yes. It's like my wife was a teacher for many years. I, uh, I always say that she was, uh, that the, the, the biggest donors to schools are the teachers. I mean, go-

53:25 Speaker 3 It's because compassion is so available for them

53:26 Speaker 2 ... if, if you don't, if you don't wanna teach, try paying someone even a million dollars to, to do that job if they don't want to.

53:31 Speaker 3 It's amazing because their, uh, compassion is so available for them. Their strongest energy of a Shliach is compassion, forgiveness, love. This, I believe that what the Rebbe gifted us besides Torah and besides Hasidism, the greatest gift the Rebbe gave us is to be able to love a Jew the way he did.

53:52 Speaker 2 Hmm.

53:52 Speaker 3 "Ki be'er panecha nasata lanu." He gave us himself. That gene, you can teach it, study it from today to tomorrow. Visit a Lubavitch Shliach has so much compassion towards a fellow Jew. Unexisting. I mean, I, I know it's... But what happens with w- w- what's with the

54:13 Speaker 2 So how do you explain, Taki, that, you know, the, in Yeshiva I heard this so many times that, you know, that, that for Balabustah, by dollars Rebbe would smile, and that for Bochurim, Rebbe was serious because he expected more. How do you, how do you, how do you explain that? Because I, I, I under- I understand the idea that you're suggesting here, which is-

54:34 Speaker 3 So it comes back to the idea of demanding.

54:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

54:37 Speaker 3 The people say, "Oh, he's the most demanding individual in my life."

54:40 Speaker 2 Right.

54:40 Speaker 3 Just the, just thinking about him. Just going to the oil was so demanding.

54:43 Speaker 2 Right.

54:44 Speaker 3 And I'll say, "Why was he, why was he so demanding of you?"

54:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

54:48 Speaker 3 Just kinda like let's just drop into that. "Why was he so demanding of you?" Now let it be soft. And the answer usually is, is because he's the only one who really believed in you. Who believed in you more than him? He believed you could do three Perakim Rambam. You can be a Shliach and conquer a city. You could be the biggest fundraiser. No one believed in you, and again, coming back to my own personal... Because I didn't grow up with the Rebbe being such a fixture of our lives as Lubavitch, shaliach just didn't happen for whatever reason. Some of my brothers, they had a different, stronger experience. So I'm sitting with someone talking about what does Gimmel Tammuz mean to, to me, you know. Gimmel Tammuz was part of the , part of the chaos, you know, I... Yeshiva-

55:35 Speaker 2 Of, of your life.

55:36 Speaker 3 My life. You know, that's, you know, you have to pretend that you sad, and you don't know why you sad. You don't know.

55:42 Speaker 2 Right.

55:42 Speaker 3 And it's a whole

55:44 Speaker 2 Right

55:44 Speaker 3 ... the adults in your life are saying one thing, and the other adults are saying something else, and you're a Bochur.

55:49 Speaker 2 Right.

55:49 Speaker 3 You're trying to kind of like, "Well, am I supposed to right now be very upset?"

55:54 Speaker 2 Right.

55:54 Speaker 3 "Okay. So I'm gonna be very upset." I remember the Shabbos with my brother Osher got married, Lametz even.

55:58 Speaker 2 Right. In Argentina.

56:00 Speaker 3 In Argentina, and all these great Lubavitchers are there, big characters in Lubavitch.

56:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

56:07 Speaker 3 There's a fire burning. It's- And then Gimel Tammuz happens that Sunday. I'm like, "What am I supposed to do exactly? What is my position? I'm 14 years old."

56:17 Speaker 2 You were just dancing four nights ago.

56:20 Speaker 3 Dancing, crying. I, I don't know where am I.

56:23 Speaker 2 Right.

56:24 Speaker 3 There's no one taking me and said, give- giving me the adroche. I don't know what's going on, I'm 14 years old.

56:29 Speaker 2 Right.

56:29 Speaker 3 I, I, I have no... So one thing that came through, again, this is years and years of trying to figure out. My birthday is Dalet Tammuz, Gimel Tammuz, always kind of this complexity, you know. So the year after my bar mitzvah, and I'm like, Gimel Tammuz, and then it's Dalet Tammuz, and I shouldn't pay attention to Dalet Tammuz because I'm on Gimel Tammuz. It's like, you know, like-

56:48 Speaker 2 Right

56:48 Speaker 3 ... and what actually happened in the last year or this year, I think maybe it was more clear. Thinking like, what's a, what's a Rebbe? What's my, what's my relationship with him exactly? What am I taking? What am I, I'm a shliach, all of that. It came to me this thought. The Rebbe took everyone seriously. Kids, adults. Anything you wrote to him was taken seriously.

57:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:20 Speaker 3 Like, they're gonna be an ernst. You think to myself like, who, who in your life takes you seriously?

57:25 Speaker 2 Right.

57:26 Speaker 3 It's supposed to be your tati, your mami, your mashpiyim.

57:28 Speaker 2 Right.

57:29 Speaker 3 And one of the struggles, and this is personal, this has nothing to do with Lubavitch, it was personal, was believing that no one really cares. No one really takes you seriously. No one really sees the light that's in you, the, the, the, the, the unique individual that you are.

57:48 Speaker 2 Right.

57:49 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe took everyone so seriously. Everything-- And this is what connects to the lashon hakiah of the Rebbe and the printing and the stress around making sure that everything... It's not a perfectionism, because everything is serious.

58:03 Speaker 2 Right.

58:03 Speaker 3 The more-

58:04 Speaker 2 Every, every gers in the Gemara, even the gers that's not f- that's not real.

58:07 Speaker 3 See, ernst zachen.

58:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:09 Speaker 3 Now, talking about Yerushalayim, you know, not, not in the bashing business, but there is that word that always being used against me, probably against my brothers as well. Oh, Yerushalmi.

58:20 Speaker 2 Right.

58:20 Speaker 3 So I know Yerushalmi, I know what the meaning of that is. And I also know the beauty of it, the charm of it, that also can sometimes blind people. But there's a shtikel, a clipa there. There's a clipa, Yerushalmis, of let's honest, of like everything is easy. Everything is taken very low.

58:38 Speaker 2 Cynical.

58:40 Speaker 3 Cynical.

58:48 Speaker 2 Right.

58:48 Speaker 3 It's like it's all like that. And that awareness, like the Rebbe took us so seriously. He believed in this little Vaitshaleikik union or Shawn Bella Vita, you know. This is Bachrimlach. And the Rebbe believed in them like they're gonna conquer America. They're gonna be the incredible. I don't think they thought themselves they can be that incredible.

59:11 Speaker 2 Right.

59:13 Speaker 3 So demanding because he saw the light in you. He saw how incredible you can be. You can learn the Drei Perakim Rambam, and you can-

59:24 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:25 Speaker 3 And you can, and you can, and you can.

59:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I, I think that, I think that kind of explains it. I'm not sure, I'm not sure if it's a happy explanation, but I think it kind of explains it because, at least for me, because you could ask it this way. If you wanna check if the filter, you know, if, if you have an air conditioner in your house or anything with a vent, and you wanna see if the filter is good or not, check the quality of the air on the other side, right? Is, is the air coming through clean or not? And if it's not coming through clean, you'll check the filter and you'll see that it's filthy and you need to change it. Right. So look at the product of what's coming through the filter, and you can see already the health of the filter. Right? You're talking about the, the Rebbe taking everything very seriously, and I agree with you a hundred percent. I've said it on the podcast a bunch of times, and in general, to me, the, like the number one rule of the Rebbe is taking things seriously. So if-- It helps because sometimes you'll hear like some kind of cynical take that's attributed to the Rebbe, and it's like, "Okay, that never happened." It never happened or you misread it. It's impossible. It, it's a helpful tool. Um, but the question is: How did the Rebbe so serio-- The Rebbe takes everything so seriously. There's not an ounce of cynicism anywhere around him. And then you

1:00:44 Speaker 2 grow up in the yeshivas, and you're, you're surrounded by chassidim. And I'm not talking to people's inner hearts, what's going on, I don't know. But the language and the sprach is so cynical, so cynical, and everything, everything machth up, right? I'll give you a, I'll give you an example here. I'll gi-

1:01:03 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:01:03 Speaker 2 ... I'll give you an example here. I'll give you an example. I don't think I've ever shared it on the, on the podcast, but I think it's telling. I hope, I hope it doesn't sound like, like me trying to butter myself up. But, um, one of the things that I did that I was, uh, that I was pretty good at when I was a bachur was chazaring mamarim. I don't have a photographic memory. I, I don't have any like special zekherin, but I know how, I, I knew how to learn a maamar and remember it and chazer it. Hopefully understand it a little bit too. And so I remember that it was, it was right when I was a bachur in seven seventy. Um, parenthetically, that, that was, tha- those were my lowest years as a bachur by far. In yeshiva, I, I, I did splendidly, you know, I did, I, I, I messed up here and there, and I, and I was, I was, you know, fakrumt in different ways, but, but I was, I was b'secher yanim, really. Um, not just for show. But seven seventy, it all fell apart. But anyway, I'm in seven seventy, and somebody comes to me, he's like, "I'm the me'aren of shabbos by the Ohel Yitzchok. Could you chazer a maamar?" Um, he wants to chazer. "Could you chazer?" I said, "Okay, fine." Okay. But in my head- If you're chazar a maamer, you chazar a maamer. You don't take a maamer and then like, you know,

1:02:15 Speaker 2 like open it up and like look through your half-closed eyes and read it. It's not a joke. You do it or you don't do it. So anyway, that year's maamer was, uh, it was Yud Aleph. The mosel of Yud Aleph. It was either Yud Aleph or Lamed Aleph and, and I chose Lamed Aleph, which is a very long maamer in Meluk Hatei. It was-- It came out in Nun Aleph in Meluk Hatei. And anyway, it's a very, very long maamer, and so I started chazaring it. And I remember distinctly 'cause I, I, I knew the maamer by heart, so I wasn't like with my eyes closed. Like I, I saw people, I saw people around me. Now, I didn't, I didn't have a perfect Yiddish. I, I grew up in Hong Kong. My Yiddish was nonexistent. I taught it to myself in yeshiva, so it was not, it was not perfect at all. It's better than it is today, though. I was chazaring this maamer in Yiddish, so maybe people first like, "What's this Yiddish about?" But then I began to notice heads start looking up 'cause it's five minutes, ten minutes, 15. What, what's going on here? Like this, this is not how it goes usually. Okay, I didn't fi-finish the whole maamer. I thought that was-- I thought that would be over the top. Nobody needs to listen now to a fifty-minute maamer. I think halfway through I stopped and that was it. Why'd I tell you this story? Because the entire... Not

1:03:28 Speaker 2 the entire Shabbos, but a few times, I remember this, a few times over that Shabbos, a few people made it a point to be mevatel. Now, to be fair to them, I think that they maybe were trying, you know, the yeshes, whatever, maybe in their head that's what they felt and they meant it well, couldn't they? But well, you know, a few mashpiyim, a few shluchim made sure to put me in my place. That part doesn't bother me. Whatever, I, could-

1:03:56 Speaker 3 Bothers me.

1:03:57 Speaker 2 Say there, fine. But, uh, eh-

1:03:58 Speaker 3 We all live through this.

1:04:00 Speaker 2 I, yeah, but I don't, I, I don't think it even bothered me so much back then 'cause I kind of ex- expected it at that point, and I was kind of asking for it. If we're gonna be honest, I was kinda asking for it. You decide that you're gonna make a point that you're actually going to chazar a maamer when most of the time it's a joke, you're gonna get, you're gonna get, you're gonna, you're sticking your head up.

1:04:15 Speaker 3 So outdated.

1:04:17 Speaker 2 Say there. But that's not what pissed me off. What pissed me off was a few months later, my mother starts telling me, "Oh, by the way, I heard from the shliach that you chazared this maamer." I... There was, there were shluchim going around to their... They were there by Shabbos. They didn't come to say yasher koach or anything, but they went back to their Chabad houses and they started telling their communities about how there's a bachur that grew up on schlichus in Hong Kong, blah, blah, blah, and he chazared a maamer, and what does this, uh, look how beautiful it is. I'm like, "You, you, you can tell your entire community and you couldn't just come and say yasher koach to me?" Like why are we living in this split universe where Chabad houses we paint this rosy picture and by us we literally all we do is pull down our pants and dreck on each other. Why?

1:05:03 Speaker 3 It's outdated.

1:05:04 Speaker 2 What's outdated?

1:05:05 Speaker 3 I mean this behavior is outdated. It's actually... Not that I-

1:05:10 Speaker 2 I think it's changed

1:05:11 Speaker 3 ... can say it's, uh, it's not changed, but it's changing.

1:05:14 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:05:15 Speaker 3 There is, there is now... I mean, I, I know from Asher because he's in yeshivas. I know Amram, my brother, who's in yeshivas. I know Zalman is in yeshivas.

1:05:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:23 Speaker 3 And I have my own kids in yeshivas. And I'm, I'm not here to idolize this yeshiva versus that yeshiva. There is definitely this entire new awareness, understanding, the yakir zein a vurt fun a bachur. Not just to make him yeshe zdik fakkalept, you know, the whole Litvishe what we always used to frown upon.

1:05:45 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:46 Speaker 3 But to give a bachur a sense of, I will use the word again, belonging.

1:05:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:52 Speaker 3 For me, when you talk about the word homsek to Lubavitch, is the belonging-

1:05:57 Speaker 2 Mm

1:05:58 Speaker 3 ... longing for feeling is called yohasheches. The Rebbe says that sicha, my father, one of the sichas that kind of like turned my father to Lubavitch, he always talked about it, was the sicha of Miriam bas Bilga. The Rebbe-

1:06:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. We talked about it

1:06:14 Speaker 3 ... goes on and on about Miriam bas Bilga. Vu ager isn, ven ager isn. The Rebbe takes this Miriam bas Bilga that everyone ever learned at Gemara knows as this absolute negative, cutting off a family from kehuné, cutting off a family from averus. And the Rebbe is like the opposite. Fum fakert.

1:06:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:34 Speaker 3 Shtoaz az ach. Impossible that we're gonna cut off a family. Um, a Jewish girl is doing absolutely negative stuff. We're not gonna cut her off from Judaism. She has a sheches, and she has a sheches, and she absolutely has a sheches.

1:06:48 Speaker 2 And that's why she's on the mizbeach, right? Isn't it?

1:06:49 Speaker 3 And that's why she's yelling at the mizbeach, and this, this was a Yiddishe tochter and a Yiddishe meydel. And the Rebbe's taking... My father was then until this iron chassid.

1:06:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:57 Speaker 3 He's listening it on the shidduv in Tzerres I think, in the old Tzerres. Wanna push it, the zest in one place. We wanna make sure that you are staying, that you're not, you're not a groupie, you're not part of this. You have to live up to the ideal of the ideal. And dokum de Lubavitcher Rebbe when emtam meydel, zwanzig toiznt yor, everybody learns that Gemara, and everybody has a certain way of thinking about this, and the Rebbe turns it to such a belonging. Again, this is the energy of this. And everyone... Yet every encounter of the Rebbe was to be able to give. People ask me, "How many bal teshuvas do you have?" My Polish cousin, "Before bal teshuvas is there." I mean, I had, I had to kinda like think for a second, like, what's it? It's how many kap, how many kapotes do you have this way to Lubavitch? How many kapotes do you have already? Like what am I doing, Taki? Based on the amount of kapotes and the amount of years I'm there, shvire matzuv. It's not okay.

1:08:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:06 Speaker 3 But then when you realize that your job is to... That the luktu echad echad is to just give Jews a sense of belonging. Everybody's ager isn- In their own belief, arguably this in Chabad Lubavitch, I remember the Mashpia in Shidalo the Mesifta was not the Teva. I'm not going to mention a name. And he says, he was trying to put on a point about Shemiras Sinai.

1:08:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:28 Speaker 3 And he said, "If you're taking a magazine in your hand, you should know, osa chagi risin ful reb."

1:08:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:08:36 Speaker 3 And he said it so loud. Now, I'm a sensitive kid. Took me time to appreciate that about me, but I was a sensitive kid. My world, I don't know if collapsed, but in my world was like-

1:08:53 Speaker 2 So he's talking about you

1:08:53 Speaker 3 ... of course he's talking about me.

1:08:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:56 Speaker 3 Now, I don't know if he's talking about me.

1:08:57 Speaker 2 No, that's, he doesn't know that

1:08:59 Speaker 3 He's a hat maker, whatever they call it. A kapelach shabos. I'm sitting there.

1:09:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:03 Speaker 3 I'm a bachur. I'm sensitive.

1:09:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:05 Speaker 3 My portals are open. I'm hearing, I'm... And this is a big bachur, a big, uh, mashpia and Chossid in my eyes, a davener, a-

1:09:14 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:14 Speaker 3 ... and he just wrote me off.

1:09:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:18 Speaker 3 He just sent me to Siberia.

1:09:21 Speaker 2 So where did that come from? That, I mean, so that's a, that's a question. I mean, 'cause I-

1:09:25 Speaker 3 This radical language had a space 60 years ago, 70 years ago.

1:09:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. There's-

1:09:30 Speaker 3 There was, there was a space for that form of chaysach shiftay sinay b'nai. There was a space for that system, and there's beautiful teachings now that a lot of the chanchim are taking. Systems are changing. You cannot use that language anymore.

1:09:49 Speaker 2 But here's, here's a question though, because, uh, all, all you're saying is fine and good, but it's, it's not, it's, it does... It's not that, it's not that we can go, if we're gonna be honest to the, to the, to the hadracha, let's say, of the Rebbe, right? You, it's not that you can go from what seems like at least a, if, at best a temporary thing of being very strict or just a complete misreading of what the Rebbe wanted and pushing people away to, like switch all the way back to just being very accepting and, and, and, and, you know, welcoming. Because like you're saying, the Rebbe was welcoming with or, or, or accepting or, or understanding with a stern face, right? That's, it always seems to come back to that problem where the Rebbe demanded opposites at the same time. He demanded contradictions of himself and of the, uh, of his, of his Hasidim. And so in many ways, that is, is almost like a, it, it's, it's not an excuse, but it's almost like a, like a defense of why these people were so stern. Because they were being asked to, on one hand, hold up the standard of tehuset mivmim and not to give an inch on the, on the tradition of tehuset mivmim, and not give an inch on the, on the le- on the standards and, and, and, and w- they weren't allowed to let in, uh, you know, Gosh, it was a government free into the Yeshivas, right?

1:11:19 Speaker 2 They weren't, they weren't allowed to let it in. But at the same time, at the same time, they're being asked to, like the Rebbe would always say, "You can't k- kick out a bachurim, you can't, you can't make a mitzion mishivas." These are opposites. If we're gonna be honest, these are opposites, and the Rebbe wanted opposites. So the question is, when you realize that in the failure to do opposites, we've failed in one direction, how do you make sure that you don't now fail in the opposite direction? Right? I mean, at the end of the day, i- if, if Lubavitch is going to just kind of accept willy-nilly this, this more therapeutic mindset, which definitely has malice and has necessity, but can also become its... It can become its own-

1:12:03 Speaker 3 So everything has ego and spirit. Everything has those two sides to it.

1:12:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:08 Speaker 3 You know, the, the Rebbe spoke about the, the quality of the Rabbeim was ve rabi meishiv nefsh. That this was a outstanding quality of each one of our Rabbeim is being a, you know, the one who brings people back from a path of mistakes and, and error and we know, and it's not major sciences, that in order to cause a person to wanna move back to Yiddishkeit or to move closer to Hasidishkeit if it's a bachur, it has to be a softened voice.

1:12:40 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:12:40 Speaker 3 It doesn't work any other way. That compassionate forgi- if the bachur knows that he's forgiven, it's not that he's gonna start misbehaving. "Oh, I'm forgiven, so"

1:12:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:12:55 Speaker 3 ... But to be able to drop into the forgiveness that exists, that the emeses, emeses, midot harachamim, tiferes. It's complicated. We, we understand your complication, and this is what Idna coming to the Chabad is the same attitude. You came with a car. It's complicated.

1:13:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:16 Speaker 3 It's not, it's not simple. The guy is married. He has to get away from that marriage. He has to work on that. If we are not gonna create a soft space for a bachur today to feel a sense of forgiveness, compassion, why should I wanna belong to any of this?

1:13:33 Speaker 2 Right. And it's my choice these days. I don't have to-

1:13:37 Speaker 3 Where, where's my, where's my space here? One second. My human, my human was, my human space was suspended. I'm not talking about trauma victim. I'm talking about a guy, a regular bachur-

1:13:47 Speaker 2 Mm

1:13:47 Speaker 3 ... going back to the biological movements in his body, and he's like, "So tell me it's not prohibited." That's a lie. It is prohibited.

1:13:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:57 Speaker 3 But it's messy.

1:13:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:59 Speaker 3 'Cause you're human, you're developing, you're going through phases in your life. Things are happening. Desires are coming up. Your body's getting ready to, for reproduction. I don't know. Explain it to me-

1:14:09 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:09 Speaker 3 ... and let me know that it's okay. Not okay to s- to, to do what I'm not supposed to according to Shulchan Aruch. Let me know that I am okay.

1:14:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:16 Speaker 3 That the Aibishter has not written me off-

1:14:19 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:19 Speaker 3 ... because of what happened to me. If you can give this word, you will return the person from a path where he knows, "Thank you." Like, like, "Thank you. That's all I needed."

1:14:34 Speaker 2 It's crazy to think how much that problem really... I mean, I don't know if it's all of, all of the, all of the issues in Yeshiva. I don't think it's all of it, but I think you're right that it's a, it's a major, major issue in Yeshiva.

1:14:48 Speaker 3 This is just a basic. This is a basic. I'm not talking about a bachur is so sensitive that when he wrote a pun by mistake with lines on it-

1:14:57 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:57 Speaker 3 ... or the guy opened up the umbrella by the oil, that's already enough for him to believe that there's no more path back for him.

1:15:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean-

1:15:04 Speaker 3 And this is extreme

1:15:05 Speaker 2 ... the OCD of the, of the pun without the lines in it was, was, was definitely part of my experience. Um, I mean, there's, there, there, there's a part to it, obviously. L- learn to, to treat a letter with respect. Would you actually send a pan to the president... Would you send a letter to the president with, you know, crossing outs and, and stuff? You probably wouldn't. But, but would... But if I have to force you to under... If I have to force you to respect the president in the first place, then we have a deeper problem, right? Like, that's not how... You don't respect the president by writing a letter without lines in it. You, you, you write a line... You write a letter without lines in it because you've come to respect the president, right? And, and if you, when you, when you start filtering the, the respect of the Rebbe through these kind of harsh, uh... Yeah, it, it definitely, it definitely, definitely leaves a mark.

1:15:56 Speaker 3 Again, that type of a trick, not a, it's not a trick or a play of words. It's just asking that Lubavitcher who struggles at that moment and say, "What would the Rebbe say?" But not what would the Rebbe say from that, you know, with what you're listening in. What would the Rebbe say if you just have a one-on-one with him?

1:16:15 Speaker 2 Right. Oh-

1:16:16 Speaker 3 And you have that soft image of him

1:16:17 Speaker 2 ... one-on-one's very different

1:16:19 Speaker 3 What would he say to you when you say, "I can't do this anymore"?

1:16:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:16:23 Speaker 3 What would he say to you? What would he say, "My wife can't handle it anymore"? What would he say to you? And somehow we are so adult-like and so clear on forgiveness, compassion, kindness, grace, whatever the word you wanna use for that, for that. They're like, "Of course he would say."

1:16:45 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. 'Cause it's very interesting. That, that line of what would the Rebbe say is used very often in the opposite direction. That it's b- about this podcast, for example. And, and probably about you becoming a therapist. People come and say... Okay, some people are just idiots, and they're, they're, they're, they're-

1:17:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, we're not, we're not addressing them

1:17:06 Speaker 2 ... I'm saying some people... No, some people are just coming, they, they need to knock everything. So forget about... I'm not talking about them. But there are people who come more sincerely, and I, you know, at least I, I judge it to be sincere. And, and they go, you know, "What would the Rebbe say? Would the Rebbe be okay with, with you talking about these topics in public?" And, you know, if you go down that road, very often you come to an answer where I don't know what he would say. And so the next thing is, if I don't know what he would say, therefore better, better don't transgress. It-

1:17:37 Speaker 3 So for me, for me-

1:17:37 Speaker 2 I'm saying that voice

1:17:38 Speaker 3 ... it boils down to purpose. That question is, does it feel a purpose? In the Rebbe's world, a lot of the words was purpose. Kavane.

1:17:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:47 Speaker 3 I remember the last weekend of my internship. Now I'm grappling with this. I'm getting judgment, I'm getting eye rolls.

1:17:54 Speaker 2 How many years, how many years? Two years, you said?

1:17:56 Speaker 3 It was almost three. It ended up being almost three years of internship. But I'm like, I'm being in that space of like with myself. But more than that is, you know, family, friends, people are like, "Are you looking for a corner?" Or, "This one is a rabbi, this one is a mashpia, now you need to have your..."

1:18:16 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:18:16 Speaker 3 I'm dealing with these eye rolls. I'm dealing with this pain. And I'm like myself, like I'm doubting, questioning. Now, I have a „sader hora". I have a mashpia. For me, that was like the „eiserne brick". I'm walking on a iron, but at the same time, inside is inner turmoil.

1:18:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:35 Speaker 3 Remember the last weekend. I'm sitting at the last weekend, and it's like we're saying goodbye to each other. And there's this quiet music playing in the room. And I'm like trying to think, "Well, what's now? What's now? Where am I going with this?" And this question was shliach, therapist, therapist, shliach. What are you gonna do exactly? You're gonna close down your shlichas, you're gonna start being a therapist.

1:19:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:01 Speaker 3 And the words, again, this is Mishkan, uh, HaKodesh or Or HaMelameda. But the words was, "Ani lehi vraesi, Elo lo shama sheskeni."

1:19:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:19:12 Speaker 3 That's it. And if you are here, and you have a Rov, and you have a Sader Hora, and it serves a purpose right now in the universe, in your own universe, obviously, you're the first beneficiary of it. But if it serves a purpose, the Rebbe is waving to you with both hands, "Go for it." And yes, there's Agbalas. I can't do it every day. I only can do therapy twice a week. I have a shliach that I brought down, an incredible Yingerman that, like, teaches me a ton how to be a better human being, Schneur Matusov and his wife. Incredible people. And I have to go through with them. You know, with shliach is a shliach. A guy is in your own Daladamus, and he has his personality, and you have your personality. And to go through the entire process in real life-

1:20:00 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:00 Speaker 3 ... not just from a place of, like, ideas. But you have to be like, like in a marriage. You have to actually practice-

1:20:06 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:20:06 Speaker 3 ... human compassion, forgiveness.

1:20:08 Speaker 2 It's tough.

1:20:09 Speaker 3 The messiness of that. But that clarity, it serves a purpose. If it serves a positive purpose in this world, mentions 11 gains of bite on the table, go for it.

1:20:21 Speaker 2 No, yeah, yeah. Thank you. I mean, I, I appreciate... I agree with you. That's why I'm doing it. But I... My, my point is more that, that, the, the, the, that, that gosha of listen to what, listen to what the Rebbe would say to you is say to you, not what other people think he should say to you, not what he would say to this group.

1:20:45 Speaker 3 And to close down that noise, by the way, is the hardest part.

1:20:47 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:20:48 Speaker 3 To shut down that noise of, like, the outside. I call it the peanut gallery. This is-

1:20:52 Speaker 2 Yes

1:20:52 Speaker 3 ... people who have no business.

1:20:54 Speaker 2 Or the people throwing the barrelach.

1:20:56 Speaker 3 They have no business. They have no business in what you're doing. They live in-

1:21:00 Speaker 2 They don't care. They also don't care Obviously. But they have no business to get into my space.

1:21:05 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah, yeah.

1:21:06 Speaker 2 Because if I wouldn't have... If I were not clear about what I'm doing, 'cause ... ... Betty Farkas decided to do the equivalent of warning, and then she wants to be a therapist, and you know.

1:21:15 Speaker 3 Right.

1:21:17 Speaker 2 As I say it in life, I'm over 40. I, Kabbalah learn many

1:21:22 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:21:22 Speaker 2 ...

1:21:22 Speaker 3 I think therapy should be also only taught over 40.

1:21:25 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

1:21:26 Speaker 3 100%.

1:21:27 Speaker 2 You're saying-

1:21:28 Speaker 3 Being a young therapist

1:21:29 Speaker 2 ... you're saying to, to learn how to become a therapist or to even go into therapy at all?

1:21:33 Speaker 3 I mean, usually the normal, the age to go into therapy is between 35 and 45.

1:21:39 Speaker 2 Really?

1:21:41 Speaker 3 It's, uh...

1:21:42 Speaker 2 I mean, it, it makes sense. How, how do you, how do you, how do you help other people-

1:21:46 Speaker 3 I don't think a person before that age is really willing to take a hard look on themself.

1:21:51 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:52 Speaker 3 Uh, people go to therapy at all ages.

1:21:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:54 Speaker 3 All ages. Kids go to therapy, but-

1:21:56 Speaker 2 It's not very useful, you're saying

1:21:57 Speaker 3 ... when are you ready to actually-

1:21:59 Speaker 2 Mm

1:21:59 Speaker 3 ... turn your kishkes upside down, inside out, and stand up?

1:22:03 Speaker 2 It's when you realize that, that, that life is a one, is a one-way road. And if you don't get real, it's gonna be over. I mean, that's the-

1:22:10 Speaker 3 And that happens at that age.

1:22:11 Speaker 2 That happens at 30s, 100%.

1:22:12 Speaker 3 Chanan Ben Ari has a song, Sheloshim Veshmoneh Ve'Ktsat.

1:22:15 Speaker 2 Oh. Right.

1:22:17 Speaker 3 Right.

1:22:17 Speaker 2 I mean, look, I, that's very, uh, to me, that's a little bit too morbid. I, not that I'm, not that I'm trying to be 25. I'm 30 s- I'm 30, turning 37 soon. My wife will get very upset at me. "36." Yeah. So anyway, if she even listens to this. But I'm saying, uh, like I, I think there's plenty of life ahead. The best years are ahead. You're, you're, you, you have a family, you're, you know, you, you, you, you're in a, you've finally figured yourself out a little bit. You, you know where you're going. You know which voices inside of you are yours and which are, uh, more than, and you know which voices are not yours. But at some point it's like you, you're not gonna be somebody else. You're not gonna get another chance at this. Right?

1:22:55 Speaker 3 But more than that, I mean, to be able to hold another person in your hands, this is really what therapy is supposed to be.

1:23:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:01 Speaker 3 It's supposed to be not just a witness. It's supposed to be someone who-

1:23:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:23:04 Speaker 3 ... a human being is in, in thine hand. The being in that space, besides if a therapist doesn't go to own, his own therapy, he's not worth anything. But I'm talking about like the age of that, being a tati for six kids or seven kids, being a husband for so long, being a person, a yer. Being a person that he's in that, in a playground for 20 years at least after yeshiva, and you have to deal with your own teenage kids.

1:23:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:36 Speaker 3 And you got slapped around by them. Oh, and I love them. And I became a better tati than I ever was because of... But that, that was part of... Now, you, you, before that, what, what do you know? I, I mean, the other day, someone stopped by in, in Eshek, someone on their way on a flight, 22-year-old woman, girl. And she said, speaking about clients that she has, and I says, "You have clients?" And she says, "Yeah, I do, um, ayahuasca journeys."

1:24:07 Speaker 2 Oh, Lord.

1:24:09 Speaker 3 And I was like, "Wow." 22-year-old girl from a... I'm not gonna say from where. Not, not a, not a Lubavitcher. "But you're doing ayahuasca journeys?"

1:24:20 Speaker 2 See-

1:24:20 Speaker 3 Ayahuasca is the strongest medicine available on planet Earth right now.

1:24:23 Speaker 2 She's guiding people on ayahuasca journeys.

1:24:25 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:24:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:25 Speaker 3 She has clients. She's talking about her clients.

1:24:27 Speaker 2 Right. All right. I'm just saying I'm s- I'm-

1:24:28 Speaker 3 I'm saying-

1:24:29 Speaker 2 ... fine

1:24:29 Speaker 3 ... fertsik.

1:24:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:31 Speaker 3 You know, 40 should be the, the minimum.

1:24:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:36 Speaker 3 So you have some life-

1:24:37 Speaker 2 Right

1:24:37 Speaker 3 ... enough. You, you're, she can hop up her peyach in them, and you already worked through some stuff.

1:24:42 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah. I, I, I mean... Yeah. Look, I, I, I don't think we need to go down the ayahuasca path unless you want to. I mean-

1:24:56 Speaker 3 No, I don't mind. I, I actually... It's a very powerful medicine.

1:25:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:01 Speaker 3 And it changes people's lives. The only issue is the, the way it's administrated, the hype around it-

1:25:08 Speaker 2 Right

1:25:08 Speaker 3 ... the lack of vetting who comes in. I do holotropic breathwork. It's only done one-on-one. It's only done by me. I mean, I did it in groups, or I learned it in groups. I have to know so much about my client and be so deep in a connection with them that I could say, "Okay, now time to administrate that medicine."

1:25:27 Speaker 2 And that's just breath. That's just breathwork.

1:25:29 Speaker 3 And that's... And it, and again, this is, this is deep. It's holotropic breathwork is very similar to what happens to you in ayahuasca.

1:25:36 Speaker 2 But you're still doing it from within yourself. You're not-

1:25:38 Speaker 3 Of course. Of course

1:25:39 Speaker 2 ... you're not introducing a different substance.

1:25:39 Speaker 3 It's not... No, no, you don't use any, any... You use your own breath, a certain way of breathing that, you know, it's, it's... You have to be on top. There's emotions coming up. There's-

1:25:50 Speaker 2 Right

1:25:50 Speaker 3 ... illu- hallucinations. But I will never give that medicine for someone who there is no understanding and awareness and connection on now it's time for that pill. Now, the Rebbe spoke at that time about meditation.

1:26:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:08 Speaker 3 Well, the Rebbe was very clear. The, the Yekkes, they are so clear about who should go for those things, who should get those things, how it should be administrated. There's a woman in Lubavitch, Roos Devorah Wallen. She, she took it as a life mission to write down and to say, "Everybody wants to wake up." You know, "I wanna ayahuasca. Now I'm gonna go to breathwork. Now I'm gonna go..."

1:26:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:31 Speaker 3 That is, that is for me, it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't work. But-

1:26:37 Speaker 2 It's the same problem. It's people not willing to, to face, to face the real, the real issue, right? If you're, if you're running around looking for solu- for quick solutions, and, and the f- the proof that you're looking for quick solutions is that you, you move on to the next one, right?

1:26:51 Speaker 3 Listen, people are in pain.

1:26:53 Speaker 2 So I was gonna ask you about that. I mean, 'cause a lot of this 20-year-old therapists or whatever, it's, it's, it's, it's not just Lubavitch, it's not just Chabad world, it's the whole world, you know?

1:27:02 Speaker 3 The whole world now.

1:27:03 Speaker 2 It's the explosion of social workers and therapists. I have family members who a- who are going down that path. And so much of it boils down to something that you were alluding to earlier about, you know, people not talking to each other, not having a Mashpia. Where, where, where do you think, where does this come from that people are so damn lonely? And, you know, I mean, I, I know it from, from my own life. I know it from myself. Um, I know it from people that I speak to. I know it from feedback that I've gotten from this podcast where people will tell me, "I, you know, I have no one to talk to," and you're talking to me, who you never met before, man.

1:27:42 Speaker 3 I had someone on the podcast reaching out 'cause he heard my name on one of your-

1:27:46 Speaker 2 On two of my podcasts.

1:27:47 Speaker 3 On two of your things, and he came in very, very randomly.

1:27:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:51 Speaker 3 And he didn't call me because I'm a therapist. He just called me because he just needed someone to connect with, and-

1:27:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:27:55 Speaker 3 ... somehow my name called him.

1:27:58 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I mean, just the, the... there is such acute loneliness, and I don't think that is what therapy is here to solve. I mean, you could tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I mean, th-therapy can solve many problems, but like the idea of people talking to each other, you... it, it cannot be something that we now only pay people to do once a week, right? We, we need to have-

1:28:20 Speaker 3 You're talking about a very, very painful piece. I'm gonna say something about it and not too controversial, but just very, very real. Again, this is my personal experience. I could only talk about personal experience, and it boils down to trust.

1:28:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:28:37 Speaker 3 When you tell your tati something and you feel like, "Please don't tell anybody," and then you find out that mommy knows.

1:28:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:45 Speaker 3 Or you told your Mashpia something, and then two weeks later by a farbrengen, the Mashpia will say something at the farbrengen.

1:28:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:55 Speaker 3 Looking at you or not looking at you and farbrenging about it. You say to yourself, "There is nobody to talk to."

1:29:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:01 Speaker 3 "I cannot talk to anybody."

1:29:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:04 Speaker 3 "Everybody will take my information." I remember when I asked my, my teacher, who was extremely insightful, and she says, "Are you gonna be a therapist after this internship?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "Are you a person who knows how to be confidential?"

1:29:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:29:20 Speaker 3 I was like, "Okay." I said, "How do you become confidential?"

1:29:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:28 Speaker 3 And I was like... She asked me, "So what do you see? How, how do you become a confidential person? You're a guy who talks to everybody. You're always charming. You're con-conversing. How are you gonna keep your clients' information sacred?" And I'm like, "In that..." This is in the space where you're thinking like, "I can't trust anybody but my therapist."

1:29:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:48 Speaker 3 So now who will trust me? Can people trust me, give me their guts, their information, their pain, their inner stories, their secrets? And I'm like having a hard time answering it. How do you become confidential? I'm trying to... So the stories of I've been your client and this one, that one. I'm trying to say And she says, "Barry, you know how you become confidential? When you know that your client's information is not yours."

1:30:21 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:30:23 Speaker 3 The second you think that that information is yours, you're gonna sell it. If you know that it's his or hers information, it's theirs, then you know I cannot talk to about anybody. Their existence in your space is theirs. You said the session is theirs. You're not there to rescue them, to fix it for them. It's theirs.

1:30:52 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:30:54 Speaker 3 And again, this is, this is a real... a re- a rearrangement of the entire, "Of course I can be confidential."

1:31:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:03 Speaker 3 I'm gonna steal your information and sell it to someone else? I mean, it became such a clear thing like... So you grow up, and we said before about taking you seriously, like who do you trust? That who, who can you say something that you know my information with this man is held? So now I have to

1:31:26 Speaker 2 I, I think I have two people.

1:31:27 Speaker 3 Okay, good. Celebrate that.

1:31:30 Speaker 2 I do.

1:31:30 Speaker 3 Celebrate that, but how many people-

1:31:32 Speaker 2 Not too many

1:31:33 Speaker 3 ... how many people walk around this world feeling from childhood experiences, from experiences. Unless I'm paying someone whatever it costs, and then he's sworn to confidentiality because it's in the front door, hanging a sign, "Does this to therapists."

1:31:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:56 Speaker 3 And when, and when Reb Mendel is saying on the alters of

1:31:59 Speaker 2 So, uh, that is such, that is such a, a, such a powerful line. A-and it's so not the Reb Mendel I always hear about. I, I thought, I thought he was gonna say some word that like who wants us to have Mashpiyim, and we you know, like, like that he means that we... He should be our Mashpia, and like it's, it's such an insightful line, and, and he's noticing that, that people are poshit. They don't talk to each other, and, uh, it's also why farbrengens, in my opinion, have become so-

1:32:30 Speaker 3 Superficial

1:32:31 Speaker 2 ... s- not they're poshit, they're poshit. They make you sad. The amount of people that I... I, I know my own experience. The, the amount of times I go to farbrengen with my hopes up, "This is going to be a farbrengen where I'm going to hear the Mashpia open up," or when I'm old... when I was older in farbrengen with friends, we're gonna open up, and I don't need to talk about my personal demons necessarily. That could be a little bit too much sometimes-

1:32:52 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah

1:32:53 Speaker 2 ... unless you're, unless you're ver- like everything has a time and place, but, but somewhere, we're gonna get somewhere, and you spend hours, and you s- you kill a night. You kill it. And yeah, and before you know it, your friends are drunk, and you're just... you're going down the same dark rabbit hole. You're drunk. Your friends are drunk, and you're saying the same s- and it's like another wasted opportunity. Another day goes by. Another time goes by, and, uh-

1:33:18 Speaker 3 You know, I found out there are three things-

1:33:19 Speaker 2 And you've given up a piece of your liver for it too

1:33:21 Speaker 3 ... there are three things Again, this is very, very far kashtes.

1:33:26 Speaker 2 Uh, I'm gonna write the disclaimer-

1:33:27 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah

1:33:27 Speaker 2 ... in big letters

1:33:28 Speaker 3 Okay. 'Cause again-

1:33:29 Speaker 2 But not-

1:33:29 Speaker 3 ... I'm just, I noticed there are three things with people that I'm working with that actually I see movement.

1:33:36 Speaker 2 And most of the people you're working with are Lubavitchers?

1:33:38 Speaker 3 Now it's like only Lubavitchers.

1:33:39 Speaker 2 Okay. The same.

1:33:39 Speaker 3 But I think I... Three, I mean, I have some-

1:33:41 Speaker 2 Right

1:33:41 Speaker 3 ... none, but I'm saying who is the people that I actually see? I see Ɣiruks ah haplas. They, they go to therapy, and you could see partially their life is changing.

1:33:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:51 Speaker 3 Number one, people who have a loving connection. They have a wife, they have a friend, they have a... They have some form of a relationship with a community. They go to fabreng, they have a haver, they-

1:34:05 Speaker 2 Resources, like you said.

1:34:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. Number two, those guys who have a job and a schedule, they exercise. You know, they, they, they have a seidel hayem.

1:34:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:15 Speaker 3 And number three, those who have an ongoing relationship with a therapist. In other words, it's not like they came to therapy and goodbye. They will come back in a month from now for a tune-up. They will come back in two months from now. But that idea that you have trusted people around you, that you can sit down and fabreng with, that you have a wife that gets you-

1:34:33 Speaker 2 Right

1:34:33 Speaker 3 ... that's a special blessing to have someone, like, who gets you. You could sit down after a session and say, "You know, I had a session today, and it hurt." And your wife doesn't have to know what happened in the session, but there is someone that you can say that to, or you could call haver after that on the way in the car and say, "You know, I just had a session with my therapist. Oh my gosh." And your haver says, "Yo, yo," and gives you some word or... That spiritual, emotional connection, if you don't have that, you're missing out on what a fabrengen is supposed to be. People who are toiling and working hard, navé de Hashem. Again, I'm not gonna bash anything, but this world for making us a shluchim was like a... What am I doing there? Yeah. I'm like, "I'm from the generation. I have no idea what to do there." No Hadrasha, no havidyo. Hype me up this, hype me up this.

1:35:31 Speaker 2 I mean, you know, you know there was once a... There was once... I heard about this from someone, that there was a... So I'd take it for what it's worth. It's secondhand material, but they had a, they had a session. They had on the side of one of the knosom, they had a, a therapist, and it was free of charge for shluchim to come in, one-on-one sessions, all anonymous. But they did collect data, like, like, like... No, not, I don't know about... Not, not information, but like what was the topics discussed. And the two biggest topics that came up was a sense of insufficiency and, uh-

1:36:06 Speaker 3 That's a big one

1:36:06 Speaker 2 ... yeah, I don't remember what the second one was. Maybe it was shame. I don't know. That shame sounds a little bit too, too, too-

1:36:11 Speaker 3 I mean, loneliness probably

1:36:12 Speaker 2 ... lo-loneliness. Yeah. I think loneliness and insufficiency.

1:36:15 Speaker 3 I mean, that is, that is the two that I-

1:36:17 Speaker 2 You observe

1:36:17 Speaker 3 ... observe a lot of, like, I'm not enough, I'm not doing enough, I'm not worth it, I don't belong.

1:36:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, you come to the knosim, and you see the people who are successful, obviously, like every, like in every other society of the world, will grab the attention.

1:36:29 Speaker 3 You know, my knos shluchim used to always look like, you know, sitting with Moishe Grey and Tzvid Riism.

1:36:34 Speaker 2 All right.

1:36:35 Speaker 3 And just, I, I-

1:36:38 Speaker 2 Are you a part of that, uh, that, that Shabbos fabrengen at the... Where, where do you say it's at? The m-

1:36:43 Speaker 3 No, I never went there, but it was like that was my-

1:36:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:36:45 Speaker 3 ... sitting down with chaverim-

1:36:47 Speaker 2 Right

1:36:47 Speaker 3 ... and, like, talking.

1:36:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:49 Speaker 3 And, and avoiding going to sessions and avoiding going... Again, this is... This ca- maybe takes me back to Nun Gimel and Dalet, to that type of non-conforming to establishment and seeing... I, I don't wanna get into that teshnegiah.

1:37:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:03 Speaker 3 But a lot for me was that human connection, that feeling of like I went a little too deep on that.

1:37:11 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, so I, I guess the, the problem that, that, that, that, that arises though is that a lot of guys, especially guys, um, I, I, I... I mean, I could ask you. Do, do you feel like this problem is more acutely a, a guy's problem than a g- than, than the wife's problem? Not really. Really? Interesting.

1:37:38 Speaker 3 By the way, ninety-nine percent of the problems are shared equally. Whatever problem you're gonna name out now that comes to therapy is across the board.

1:37:52 Speaker 2 I mean, but there are, there are stereotypical... There are, there are things that men are more-

1:37:56 Speaker 3 Yeah, but they're becoming less and less.

1:37:57 Speaker 2 Interesting. 'Cause-

1:37:59 Speaker 3 Gender euphoria for Seattle language.

1:38:01 Speaker 2 There you go. There you go. We had to bring that up. I mean, yeah, yeah. Uh, we're gonna be... Yeah.

1:38:07 Speaker 3 No, because we struggle with the same things.

1:38:10 Speaker 2 No, we're all people at the end of the day.

1:38:11 Speaker 3 Look, the generation when the shliach was the shliach, and the shlucha was just have- home having babies and raising children, it's over.

1:38:17 Speaker 2 No, but that's not what I meant. What I meant was more it seems like-

1:38:18 Speaker 3 No, I mean, the struggles

1:38:19 Speaker 2 ... it seems like, it seems like bochurim come out of yeshiva with a lack of friends, for lack of a better word.

1:38:28 Speaker 3 Happens to girls.

1:38:29 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:38:29 Speaker 3 That, that's a very much, uh-

1:38:31 Speaker 2 So, so, so the question becomes... You're talking-- You, you... There's this, there's this growing awareness, which is wonderful, I think, on many levels. Um, people, people are realizing that they have to get their act together, and they have to... They, they cannot, they cannot-

1:38:47 Speaker 3 Can't continue that way

1:38:48 Speaker 2 ... they can't continue that way. And that, that in a way is the most optimistic, hopeful idea in general, that people, push comes to shove, people at the end of the day, the slogans, the slogans don't... Th-th-they, they don't, they don't, they don't take hold.

1:39:02 Speaker 3 Collect dust.

1:39:03 Speaker 2 They don't take hold. They, they don't take root. They, they, they, they float around in the air, but eventually they die, and you have to, you have to make... You have to, you have to find something that's real. But now you're in your 30s, and you're not going, you're never going back to yeshiva again. What's, what's the etza? How do, how do people who are not going to relive their yeshiva years with the wisdom that they now have that's been hard-earned, what's the etza in your eyes beyond going to a therapist, which I don't think solves the actual problem? It could maybe help solve the problem, but, like, where... What, what is the step that, that, that, that men, and like you're saying women also, what is the step that they need to take to re- to find friendship? What's, what's holding them back?

1:39:57 Speaker 3 The gutsy part is the reaching out. That that's the hardest. But when those who have the guts to do that, to reach out, like to old classmate that-

1:40:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:11 Speaker 3 ... who we didn't speak for about twenty years.

1:40:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:13 Speaker 3 And then being like, "This is a WhatsApp conversation. Not a WhatsApp conversation, but like, "What's going on?"

1:40:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:18 Speaker 3 "What are you up to?" And there's a lot of trial and error because you're gonna have those friends who are gonna shut you down. They're like, "I don't know what you want from me."

1:40:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:27 Speaker 3 But to have that guts to get over that shame and that barrier and do that, we have no choice. It's, it's... We think we were supposed to do this on our own.

1:40:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:44 Speaker 3 But you, do you think... You know, you're doing, so you're doing homeschooling. Are we meant to do life on, on our own? Are we-- This is the biggest mistake is that we thought that we couldn't do this-

1:40:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:55 Speaker 3 ... being a shliach, being a tati, being a husband, being a son, being a daughter. You're not meant to do this on your own.

1:41:01 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:41:03 Speaker 3 You were supposed to do this in a group, in a commune with the zaydis and the bubbes living around you.

1:41:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:41:09 Speaker 3 And when I have a hard time and my tati and mommy are checked out, I go to bubbe to talk to her, and bubbe gives me soup, and she says, "The teachers will get in the other line. You're the best kid in the world." And I got my suiting there. Kids growing up today with no bubbe, no zaydi. Bubbe, I mean, there is a bubbe sometimes in the area, but she's taking, she's in Pilates classes, and she's busy. Not the bubbe that we used to have in the olden days. And that becomes the, the, the, the, the transformation of like, "I've been alone. I'm alone."

1:41:39 Speaker 2 Isolation, yeah.

1:41:40 Speaker 3 Isolation.

1:41:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:41:42 Speaker 3 And to be able to reach out to someone, and this is where the Aseh Lecha Rav maybe can break that barrier if we listen to the Bakasha Nafshi and say, "You know what? I need to talk to someone." And it doesn't have to be someone who's more sophisticated than me. It doesn't have to be someone who's older than me. It just has to be someone that I ask and give me an hour of your time. I just need to talk.

1:42:04 Speaker 2 Right. I mean, that's actually such an interesting way and a, and a, and a, and a very positive way of looking at, at the whole Aseh Lecha Rav thing. It's, it's not, it's not instead of a therapist. It's in many ways preemptive to a ther-

1:42:19 Speaker 3 Of course

1:42:19 Speaker 2 ... to a therapist. If you, if you're gonna have a k- If you're gonna talk to people, and you're going to be willing to have conversations that are real with somebody. And real doesn't always mean that you have to talk about all the schmutz inside of you. But, but the things that are bothering you, the things that are on your, on your heart. If you're willing to have those conversations, you will be in a much healthier place in the first-

1:42:40 Speaker 3 And he doesn't owe you to talk to you about his issues.

1:42:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:43 Speaker 3 That's the whole point of Aseh Lecha Rav. It's not like, "Okay, we're having a give and take. I'll tell you all my stuff-

1:42:48 Speaker 2 Right

1:42:48 Speaker 3 ... and you'll tell me all your stuff. Are we gonna have a contract between each other that this is how we..."

1:42:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:42:53 Speaker 3 It doesn't work that way.

1:42:54 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:42:54 Speaker 3 It has to be a person that you are willing to just sit by. Like you said, "Nigeh levave." The voice read in their hearts.

1:43:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:43:03 Speaker 3 And the person doesn't have to fix it for you.

1:43:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:43:06 Speaker 3 Because he can't. It's not his.

1:43:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's amazing, it's amazing what a listening ear will do. It's amazing what a listening ear will do. I mean, I, I do it for a living. I, I, I go and film people. So I'm not a therapist. I'm not trained to, to help them. But I-

1:43:22 Speaker 3 But you have to be in that space

1:43:23 Speaker 2 ... but I have to listen to them. I push a page to listen to them. And not only that, I have to listen to them usually three times 'cause I have to listen to them when they're talking, then I have to... then I go back and edit it. I have to, I have to listen to them a lot. And the, the way people open up to you when you're, when you're, when you're... It becomes very evident to them. You've put up a light. You've put up a camera. You've put up sound. You've set up a-

1:43:47 Speaker 3 It's what happened right here, right now, by the way.

1:43:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, but I don't th- I... You do this, you also do this for a living. It's natural at this point. But yes-

1:43:53 Speaker 3 Yeah, but-

1:43:54 Speaker 2 ... 100%. The, the podcast-

1:43:56 Speaker 3 This was dreadful, by the way. Honest.

1:44:00 Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

1:44:00 Speaker 3 'Cause I know where it's going.

1:44:02 Speaker 2 I'm sorry to hear.

1:44:03 Speaker 3 But, but you know what?

1:44:05 Speaker 2 Dreadful for who?

1:44:07 Speaker 3 For me.

1:44:07 Speaker 2 Oh, for you.

1:44:08 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:44:08 Speaker 2 I'm serious and efish. This one was serious and efish.

1:44:10 Speaker 3 I'm not a serious and efish. I, I own it.

1:44:13 Speaker 2 A lot of people are gonna, are gonna be very, very-

1:44:15 Speaker 3 You know, I told you I listened to the other podcast the other day, 'cause I, I don't really have much podcast hours in my life. I mean, I love listening to my brother Asher and his-

1:44:24 Speaker 2 Sure

1:44:24 Speaker 3 ... show.

1:44:25 Speaker 2 Uh, Asher's not really a podcast. It's a different-

1:44:27 Speaker 3 I'm saying is I don't... My Spotify, this is the, this is-- I got a, I got a report card from Start Up Spotify of how many hours I spent, and Lichei Suchidim was, like, on top of it. I was very proud of it because it's, it's what I listen to if I have time.

1:44:40 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:44:40 Speaker 3 But I was on the way on a trip, and I told you I listened to a podcast with someone who's being very, very vulnerable and talking about their pain and their story.

1:44:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:44:48 Speaker 3 And it was, for me, it was like, "What, what did this do to me?" And then I was listening after that. Not just that, but there was a piece that came a couple weeks after that with Avremi Wolf.

1:45:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:45:00 Speaker 3 I wanna mention his name, actually.

1:45:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:45:03 Speaker 3 He spoke about his journey, and I said, "Thank you."

1:45:06 Speaker 2 He's a good friend of mine.

1:45:07 Speaker 3 Yeah?

1:45:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:45:07 Speaker 3 And I said, "Thank you. I'm not alone."

1:45:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:45:14 Speaker 3 He said, "No, he's doing about Madrege." He lives in Florida. I know where he lives. He's not my age.

1:45:18 Speaker 2 He lives in Parkland.

1:45:19 Speaker 3 I said, I said, "About Madrege. This is a person." We talk about about Madrege's, and he's talking about... Now, I don't know if I'm ever gonna contact him or speak with him, but for me, it was like, like you said, "What does it do to me? Why am I here?" Maybe someone, this is what... For me, that, for example, is like, "Okay, perfect." I thought, I thought I'm the only one in that universe fighting that, those demons and dealing with all those issues. Thank you, Avremi.

1:45:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. Avremi's a good man. He's a very good man.

1:45:52 Speaker 3 Whatever, whatever he's doing that podcast universe, Yedid Hayener brings light in their own way. This one is, this podcast came from a guy who is very busy with healing work and-

1:46:04 Speaker 2 Sure

1:46:04 Speaker 3 ... um, what's his name?

1:46:05 Speaker 2 Eli Nash.

1:46:05 Speaker 3 Eli Nash.

1:46:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:46:06 Speaker 3 A lot of healing work.

1:46:08 Speaker 2 Good man

1:46:09 Speaker 3 And it's... I listened to a couple, I didn't listen to much. But this work at Unidos, I mean, this Inger man who called me, guy completely not Lubavitcher or Boro Park. But that, that was-

1:46:21 Speaker 2 And look, the, the reason why podcasts are working today, and it's not just the Lubavitch, it's... Lubavitch is a, is a tiny, it's, it's a phenomenon across the world. The reason why it's resonant is not because people have more time on their hands. I mean, of course, it helps that they have a phone that they can listen to, but it's because people are desperate to, to have conversation. And if they can't have their own conversation-

1:46:45 Speaker 3 Listen in

1:46:46 Speaker 2 ... they at least listen into a conversation, vicarious conversation. And that's why, that's why like you, if you, if I start editing the conversation, the Dafka people stop listening to it. They wanna hear, like you were talking earlier, they wanna hear the messiness of a, of it. They wanna hear the, uh, the word's overused, but the vulnerability of it, where someone opens up and maybe he's wrong and the other person doesn't, doesn't accept what he says or she says, and so on. And look, i-i-in that sense, yes, it's, I don't think it's a cure by any means. I think, I think it's, I think it helps a lot of people. I think it helps a lot of people. It, it, it mitigates the isolation. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's... I mean, what you described earlier, you know, that that world of the kid growing up on their own and, and the adult, and the kid now is an adult, and that adult is now me, uh, you know, and, and, and, and everybody, and, you know, this, this kind of, uh, this isolation. And you said also earlier the, the lack of trust, the, the, the sense of the, the, the, the sense of betrayal of-

1:47:51 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:47:52 Speaker 2 Right?

1:47:52 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:47:53 Speaker 2 Right. The betrayal, like I'm going to open myself up to you, and then you're just going to take it in your hand and throw it right... You're gonna throw it right back in my face, which is what you're doing when you, when you say, "That's nice," and you move on. That's what you're doing. I just, I just said something to you that was meaningful, and you just didn't care. Uh, that's, you know, people... Yeah. It's, it's, it's certainly something that people are more sensitive to today, and like, like you're discussing, it's possible that, that it is something new. And look, the, the, the, the thing is that Lubavitchers sometimes feel that they're immune to, to certain trends, you know, from them. One of the most, one of the most, uh, it was painful-

1:48:41 Speaker 3 Until, until you get slapped around.

1:48:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I'll tell you, uh, tonight actually is, is the, the Boni Elom, uh, the Boni Elom, uh, barbecue in Carnites, and I, I do a lot of work with Boni Elom, which I'm very proud of, proud of. Uh-

1:48:55 Speaker 3 Just contributed to that.

1:48:56 Speaker 2 Wonderful.

1:48:56 Speaker 3 Shmulie Hecht. He's a student of mine in, in, uh, Parkesville.

1:49:01 Speaker 2 I made a video. I made a-

1:49:02 Speaker 3 Bar Mitzvah class.

1:49:02 Speaker 2 Well, you're gonna soon get a video of him. I made a video about him.

1:49:05 Speaker 3 So you always send me the link.

1:49:06 Speaker 2 The... But he made a... We made a video of him this year.

1:49:08 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah?

1:49:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Shmulie Hecht's a good man. Shmulie Hecht, uh, the, the red, the redhead.

1:49:12 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:49:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:49:13 Speaker 3 Baby slap.

1:49:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shmulie Hecht's a good guy. So, um, so I w- I w- I was obviously not able to be there this year, but last year I was there, and there was this... And I mean, this was... I'm not gonna say a name 'cause whoever wasn't there maybe, maybe doesn't know who it is. But there was a guy who, a Lubavitch, a Lubavitch younger man who, uh, we made a v- we made a video about, and he, to that point, did not have children, and it's been after many years, and it's, it's a rough story. It's a very rough story. And, and anyway, after the video, he got up and said some remarks, and I was paying attention to him, and I, I had made the video, I'd interviewed him, I got to know him, but he said, he said this one line that to me, uh, he's like, "Lubavitchers, we grow up and we think that these things don't affect us. It's not gonna happen to us. We're gonna go to..." You know.

1:50:06 Speaker 3 You know, where was my spiritual crisis in life? So my classmate, friend, my, uh, partner, badala chaim was Gabby Holzberg.

1:50:20 Speaker 2 Uh.

1:50:21 Speaker 3 I come back from Kinus Hashlochen. That was the highest of the high, one of those kinusim that will be remembered by everybody who was there. It's not hakil. It's hakiton. And that universe of like a Chabad house is the safest place on planet Earth.

1:50:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:50:37 Speaker 3 Nothing, and you tell people sitting in your sukkah, in this Chabad house, nothing is gonna happen. Earthquake. Your whole universe is like-

1:50:45 Speaker 2 Shattered

1:50:46 Speaker 3 ... I remember sitting there, that's Friday morning, and I'm like at middle of construction, and I'm like, I just... And like literally, the most existential questions-

1:50:57 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah

1:50:57 Speaker 3 ... facing me. I'm a younger man. I'm still, you know, s- wait, I didn't start my shlichas, but I was already like in the early years. And Gabby went to Mumbai and I went to Issaquah, and it was like the same year. You know, we just w- both married. And we used to use at the time ICQ, you know, when you message in, uh, AOL and-

1:51:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure

1:51:17 Speaker 3 ... MSN, whatever.

1:51:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:51:18 Speaker 3 And like, so, so that... So we're not safe here.

1:51:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:51:23 Speaker 3 So we're... W- I thought being a shliach means I'm immune from Bonichaim, Zeinervich, and never security, safety.

1:51:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:51:31 Speaker 3 In a Chabad house, a shliach-

1:51:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:51:34 Speaker 3 ... his wife. The existential chaos that I was in, and there was nothing that comforted me. I could... Till now, I mean, I had to be with Sichas and Ma'amrim and, uh, and other stuff. I, I remember I, I... There was, there was that being immune, thinking nothing bad is gonna happen to us because we are.

1:51:56 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was in California as a shliach then. Um, and I remember we had a, we had a rally with, with Rabbi Kunin, I think. And, uh, I, I remember having those similar thoughts that you just described. And I also remember seeing how there was this attempt I think this was before they found out what would actually happen in there, and there was this attempt to proclaim that it couldn't happen because it was a h- like, there was this-

1:52:24 Speaker 3 Okay, so here, here you said the word betrayal before.

1:52:26 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:52:28 Speaker 3 And I'm gonna get stoned for this- ... but I don't care.

1:52:30 Speaker 2 Well, if someone's listening at hour 50, they can stone you.

1:52:33 Speaker 3 Okay. Well, wow, we're sitting here for a while. The experience of betrayal right there.

1:52:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. Didn't take them seriously, but yeah, some people did.

1:52:43 Speaker 3 No, we were betrayed. It's not supposed to be that way.

1:52:48 Speaker 2 Uh.

1:52:50 Speaker 3 What's the biggest betrayal a Lubavitcher experienced, those who lived through-

1:52:55 Speaker 2 Gimel Tammuz

1:52:56 Speaker 3 ... of course.

1:52:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:52:58 Speaker 3 The anger-

1:52:59 Speaker 2 Mm