Ep. 26 // "The Lack of Atmosphere" w/ Rabbi Ruvi New

00:00 Speaker 1 The nature of a room is also that you can just get sort of swept up in it. I think what's unique today with the lack of that room is that, you know, today the big thinking of today is ownership. We're gonna own... Today's generation wants to own its Yiddishkeit and own the tshushkes, which means almost like a, "I, I wanna opt in."

00:28 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Benzi Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. S-so I am here with Rabbi Ruby Nu, Bochuraton. Thank you very much for making the time on a Tuesday morning. Um, I figured that we'd-- I'd give a little bit of a background because for some who've listened, they'll know that I've interviewed your brother, your older brother, Moishy. He's the oldest brother, right?

01:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:09 Speaker 2 Moisha.

01:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:09 Speaker 2 Is that what it was? And, uh, so he gave a lot of your family background and, uh, about your grandparents, your parents, like Australia that you grew up in. But one of the interesting things that we spoke about then was how much-- W-he spoke about how when he came to America, um, he first went to the Miami Yeshiva, and the whole kind of introduction of the seven seventy was a very methodical, individualized approach.

01:36 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:37 Speaker 2 Whereas he felt that by the time you came, things had changed a lot. And so I think it would be very interesting to, to kind of jump off over there and talk a little bit about how things changed in those years. U-unless you'd like to, uh, uh, correct the record about what he said about your upbringing or your grandparents, I'm happy if you'd like to, but, um, I feel like that would be an interesting place to start.

01:59 Speaker 1 Okay. So this is a sequel to, uh, to my brother's interview.

02:04 Speaker 2 Yes. I, I don't know.

02:04 Speaker 1 I sort of figured that was happening 'cause, like, he kept making some references to me, so I figured eventually, um-

02:10 Speaker 2 It wasn't planned.

02:11 Speaker 1 It wasn't planned.

02:12 Speaker 2 It was not planned.

02:13 Speaker 1 Okay. Well, yes, we did grow up in the same place and generally the same time, um, but I would say under slightly different circumstances, partially to his credit or, or to his own experiences. In a way, he was a trailblazer and sort of sole saderech for his younger brothers, uh, particularly me, I think, um, as the youngest. So what I mean by that, for example, if we're gonna refer back to that interview, he spoke a lot about the war that he went through to break away from high school and go on to Yeshivat Gedola. So, you know, by the time I decided I wanted to, to do the same thing, um, it was nowhere near. The, the temperature was nowhere near as, as, as hot, you know, 'cause he, he had already sort of opened that door. It was still, uh, something that was very... It was uncommon. It was just, it was just a few hardcore anash that didn't go to high school and did what was called then olé tora and then went on to Yeshivat Gedola. But, you know, so he paved the way. So my experience is not exactly the same, but in many ways to his credit.

03:39 Speaker 2 Hmm. Yeah. So i-in many ways, the younger brother is always a kind of sequel of their older brother until, until they aren't.

03:47 Speaker 1 Are you a younger brother?

03:48 Speaker 2 I'm the older brother.

03:49 Speaker 1 Ah.

03:49 Speaker 2 So this is... Well, this is contentious.

03:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. I spent all my life wearing hand-me-downs from my older brothers.

03:53 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Everybody telling you, "This is what your older brother did."

03:57 Speaker 1 Which, which brother you're gonna be like.

03:59 Speaker 2 Right. Until you aren't. So that, that's how much this will be a sequel. It'll be a sequel until it isn't. But w-what's your take? Or, or maybe describe n-now that you've kind of laid down that a lot of it was following him or following his path, where did that path-- Or, or just describe a little bit, um, what it was like for you going to New York. What, what was... He described the, the shluchim coming to Australia. He, he remembers the first group. By your time, how many years younger are you than him?

04:34 Speaker 1 Ten.

04:34 Speaker 2 Ten. So ten years already, it was a whole... It was a-

04:37 Speaker 1 Five kvitzes later.

04:38 Speaker 2 Five kvitzes later, it became like a norm. So what was Lubavitch like to you at that point? What was, what was it like for you, um... Just describe a little bit your experience of, of how you saw... You're in Australia on the other end of the world. How do you see Lubavitch?

04:56 Speaker 1 So I mean, the overall culture that he describes is pretty much true. Uh, you can... And, and when I say the culture, talking about of the school. Yeah, so it was Lubavitch school, but it was a community school.

05:10 Speaker 2 Right.

05:10 Speaker 1 The rebbe was certainly not at the forefront of, you know, discourse. You know, we had rallies, and we'd sing Keli Ata, you know, and Yidis Kislev was like a big day, these tamals. So the Lubavitch culture was there, but, you know, the focal point was not necessarily Deroshvi. Um, as y-as you know, the founders of the community were, you know, would come, you know, the five families. They created this, a certain culture, Lubavitch culture, like the Fabrangens, Shabbos and Boruchim, but, you know, the, the, the talk. It was not, it was not like, not, not Deroshvi. Um, it was classic, you know, classic, you know, old school Hasidish Fabrangens, um- Even Rabbi Groner

06:03 Speaker 2 What's he been by ? The Moshiach or-

06:05 Speaker 1 No, I'm not talking about Moshiach. I'm talking about focal point on, on the Rebbe on his chassidus.

06:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:09 Speaker 1 It was more-- Even Rabbi Groner who farbrenged, you know, uh, occasionally had, had a few big farbrengens of the year were at his house, even Purim.

06:19 Speaker 2 Right.

06:20 Speaker 1 Uh, Purim was a big farbrengen, and Chol Hamoed, um, usually Pesach. So he, you know, he, he waxed nostalgic a lot, a lot about the Rebbe.

06:30 Speaker 2 Really?

06:31 Speaker 1 And about Reb Shmuel. You know, the, the-- these were his formulative years.

06:36 Speaker 2 Right.

06:36 Speaker 1 And, uh, you know, he romanticized them a lot. Um, this is not a critique. Just saying, I'm just talking about you asking about the Lubavitch culture.

06:45 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:45 Speaker 1 And he-

06:46 Speaker 2 He was definitely, he was definitely not-- I remember him. He was definitely not your typical . He didn't speak that language so much.

06:53 Speaker 1 Although he-

06:54 Speaker 2 Although he li- He lived it, though.

06:56 Speaker 1 No, he, he evolved.

06:57 Speaker 2 Okay.

06:57 Speaker 1 He evolved. Uh, there's no question that, you know... Um, he spoke at my wedding, which was Cheshvan, right? The day the Rebbe arrived in America. We're actually sitting and talking right now, today's Teshri, when the Rebbe came. He actually spoke about the fact that he was from the few people who were at both events.

07:19 Speaker 2 Wow.

07:19 Speaker 1 He was there Teshri, and then he was there Cheshvan. And, uh, you know, this is . He was all in, Moshiach, Rebbe. It was like , he had definitely-- his whole had, had, had changed a lot. You know, I wasn't there in Melbourne to see this whole evolution, but I, I saw it, um, at my wedding. So but if you look at the, if you look at the, the that the Rebbe had with the first shluchim in , which is, by the way, the year I was born, was the year that the first came. The Rebbe said that their, you know, their goal, their role is to make Melbourne into a as and to, you know. I don't know if he used the , his chassidus, which is actually , but yeah, the Rebbe understood with the Chassidim that were there then were-- they had created a certain culture, and that the shluchim were gonna-- they were gonna bring . They were gonna bring the brand to, to a whole new generation. And they were absolutely-- Uh, it was actually a, a totally transform-- you know, transformational point in the whole evolution of Lubavitch in Melbourne. So my brother Meshel was already thirteen. No, he was actually only ten then, I guess, when the first shluchim came. Very impressionable. And slowly but surely, you know, they started, they started this quiet revolution of bringing, you know, to Melbourne.

08:50 Speaker 2 So by the time you grow up, before the-- You're, you're-- You grow up ten years later. It's-- Well, let's say ten years later, which is already ten years into it.

08:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:59 Speaker 2 It-- the whole landscape has changed at that point.

09:02 Speaker 1 It's changing. It's changing. Um, they were a big part of our lives. You know, I-- The first, my first real recollection is, uh, I mean, they were like, they, they, they were rock stars in Melbourne. When they arrived-

09:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

09:18 Speaker 1 ...it was like the Yanks. We called them the Yanks. And, and, uh, you know, Australians, there's Australian culture nicknames. It's like this, every Yank had his own, had his own, you know, nickname. Um, some of them, I think, heard about these names for the first time, like he was dubbed Elvis. You know, I'm not even sure he ever heard of Elvis. But he had this rich, deep voice, and he was very handsome and blue eyes, and he was like, he looked like a, like a rock star. So they were, you know, they were just iconic. When they, when they arrived, the whole school-- I don't know if the whole school, not, but a big portion of the school came to greet them, dancing in the airport, an introduction to the community. So they were very, um, very key players in, in formulating. But to talk about the landscape, it was a process. It took, it took years and years until it really took root.

10:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

10:16 Speaker 1 But it started, uh, uh, very organically, very organically, one bocher at a time, one kid at a time.

10:23 Speaker 2 So even at your point, what you're saying is even when you were growing up, it wasn't like the whole place had shifted entirely. You were s-

10:30 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

10:31 Speaker 2 It was easier for you to follow the path of your brother, but it wasn't like everyone was doing that either.

10:36 Speaker 1 No.

10:37 Speaker 2 It was still, it was still quite new and quite unique, like-

10:41 Speaker 1 Growing up as a, a kid in Melbourne, um, life generally revolved around sports.

10:47 Speaker 2 Footy.

10:48 Speaker 1 Footy. Fall, footy in the winter, cricket in the summer-

10:51 Speaker 2 Right

10:51 Speaker 1 ... cricket, tennis. It, it, everything else around it was sort of secondary.

10:55 Speaker 2 Sure.

10:56 Speaker 1 You came to school primarily for the breaks. Everything in between was just fillers.

11:02 Speaker 2 Right.

11:02 Speaker 1 And that was totally prevalent, you know, during my school years.

11:05 Speaker 2 I played in the same courtyard as you did, probably.

11:08 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah?

11:08 Speaker 2 I was there for a few years. Uh-

11:10 Speaker 1 In high school?

11:11 Speaker 2 No, no, no. I was there in elementary.

11:12 Speaker 1 Oh.

11:12 Speaker 2 Yeshivah College. Um, we'd play footy. I'm pretty sure that building on Balaclava... No, it's on Hotham.

11:21 Speaker 1 Hotham.

11:21 Speaker 2 On Hotham. That first building, it was a-

11:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, the bui- the school yards, the hallowed ground-

11:27 Speaker 2 See-

11:28 Speaker 1 You know

11:28 Speaker 2 ...it was always that building, right?

11:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:30 Speaker 2 That building-

11:30 Speaker 1 The playground's there

11:31 Speaker 2 ...right be- right next to the shul.

11:32 Speaker 1 Behind, yeah.

11:33 Speaker 2 Right behind. Yeah.

11:34 Speaker 1 Uh, well, yeah, and the playground in between.

11:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:36 Speaker 1 Now they've added playgrounds-

11:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

11:38 Speaker 1 ...but, but yeah, this is, this is hallowed ground.

11:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. So we played on the same yard.

11:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:43 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:43 Speaker 1 This is, this is where life happened.

11:45 Speaker 2 I wasn't very good at footy in the day, but, um-

11:47 Speaker 1 Well, you had two good brothers

11:48 Speaker 2 ...so, so some of your nephews were, were, were much, much better, uh, Dovid and Shimi. I don't know-

11:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

11:54 Speaker 2 ...if those were your only neph-- And the Gutnicks, but-

11:55 Speaker 1 And the Gutnicks.

11:56 Speaker 2 Yeah. Everybody, all the others had left. But anyway, yeah, so I know what you're talking about.

12:00 Speaker 1 They all inherited from their uncles, you know.

12:03 Speaker 2 They inherited from their uncles. I'd say that. It does usually run in the family. Um- Yeah. So, uh, so, so, so talk a little about y-you're, you're following a journey, so in a way that makes it more interesting because on one hand, it would seem like you're, you know, my older brother did it, I'm also gonna do it. Describe a little bit what's different 'cause you don't go to Miami. You don't go to Miami. And I'm not just try-- I don't wanna keep on going re-referring, referring back to your, to your brother. I just, I think eventually we'll kind of break out into, uh, into its own parshah. But I do, I, I do believe generally that something happened there. Some-something changed in, in the, in, in that, those ten years between your brother coming to America, let's say in the late lamed or early mems, I suppose.

12:50 Speaker 1 Him?

12:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:52 Speaker 1 Him, late lamed, yeah.

12:53 Speaker 2 Okay. And you coming to late mems.

12:55 Speaker 1 Mid, yeah.

12:56 Speaker 2 A lot, I mean, a lot had changed.

12:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

12:59 Speaker 2 Wait, so you came- You came less than ten years after him.

13:02 Speaker 1 I guess. Yeah, probably ten years. I think he came lam med dalet and I came, uh, mem he.

13:07 Speaker 2 Okay.

13:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. So there's a few, I mean, factors. Again, just to go back to the culture of Melbourne, the first time I really remember, um, the Rebbe being a focal point was right after Simchat Torah lam chet. I was ten years old, eleven. I remember there being a rally-

13:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

13:28 Speaker 1 ... school coming together, singing Tehillim. Um, that was my first memory of something like, let's call it very Rebbe-centric. And then I remember the following year, Hakafot, uh, one of the shluchim, Mechem Shapiro, it's a mask of the Bezdin. He got up, and he was, you know, very fiery about this Hakafot and talking about what happened the year before. And then I remember that that sort of sat with me. Personally, um, it's, it's actually every time, Shavuot approaches, we're having this conversation on Tes Other. I guess we're not gonna be able to escape my brother. Today's his, today's his anniversary, Bashe's anniversary.

14:08 Speaker 2 Mazel tov, though. Mazel tov.

14:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the reason I mention that is because this is the first time I came to New York. So he got married in Montreal.

14:15 Speaker 2 Right.

14:15 Speaker 1 It's actually the same tfiuss as this year, which meant... So the wedding was in Montreal. My first, uh, my first, you know, experience with the Rebbe was, uh, Purim, taf shin mem.

14:29 Speaker 2 After the wedding, you came down to New York?

14:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. We came, it was middle of Sheva Brachos. We came to New York for the farbrengen, which was, uh, Sunday night. So this was my first-

14:35 Speaker 2 Wh-whose idea was it to come? Your father?

14:38 Speaker 1 To come where?

14:39 Speaker 2 To the farbrengen.

14:41 Speaker 1 Well, the, the, the whole, the whole, the whole Sheva Brachos migrated from Montreal to, uh, to New York.

14:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

14:47 Speaker 1 So this was my first brush with this, with seven, seven, we've seen the Rebbe being by farbrengen, but I just, I just turned thirteen, and, uh, it was also my first and last yechidut, still yechidut then, right after, right after Purim.

15:04 Speaker 2 Which year was this?

15:05 Speaker 1 Taf shin mem.

15:05 Speaker 2 Taf shin mem.

15:07 Speaker 1 So for me personally, this was j- this was just my f- I would call it my first brush with this, um, with this reality. But it was, it was, uh, it was too quick, and I was too young to really process it. Then, to my good fortune, my next brother, uh, he also got married a year and a half later. He got married chof beis Elul, taf shin mem alef, which means a week before Rosh Hashanah. So I ended up spending, me and my older brother, Chaim, spent Tishrei, mem beis in New York. That was life-changing.

15:46 Speaker 2 Hmm.

15:48 Speaker 1 That was-

15:49 Speaker 2 Who did you stay by? You have family there?

15:52 Speaker 1 Crazily enough, my brother, who had just gotten married a week before Rosh Hashanah, we basically stayed in, in his apartment, and him, him and his newlywed wife, which is pretty crazy. So-

16:06 Speaker 2 It sounds like a younger brother thing to do.

16:08 Speaker 1 Well, I-- it sounds like a, an older brother thing to do, to be, uh, to have been so open. It was pretty crazy. We didn't force it, you know. So they didn't have much of a honeymoon. Went straight into Tishrei, and me and my brother staying there, and, and Australians, a couple of Australians hanging out. So that, that was life-changing. You know, that, that... By the time that Tishrei was over, I was, like, all in, and, and my, my whole paradigm shifted. I, I didn't see myself now as, you know, just a, an Australian kid who has some Lubavitch affinity. I saw, no, this is, this is, this is me. This is where I wanna-- This is where I wanna be. And from that point on, I was just biding my time until um, until I get back to where I really wanna be. This is it.

16:57 Speaker 2 That's when you became homesick for Lubavitch, is what you're saying?

16:59 Speaker 1 Total-- Well, yeah, the day I got on the plane to go back to Melbourne, I got homesick for Lubavitch, yeah.

17:06 Speaker 2 The day you got on the plane after Tishrei?

17:07 Speaker 1 To go back.

17:08 Speaker 2 After Tishrei?

17:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

17:10 Speaker 2 It, it's so interesting because it's, it, it sound, it sounds like such a different-- Lubavitch-wise, it sounds like such a different world. Like, the idea that today you would say that Lub-- you know, you're a Lubavitch kid growing up in a different city, and so therefore, you're not totally revolving around the Rebbe and, and like the core of Lubavitch. Like, that doesn't-- like, that idea doesn't exist anymore. Like, right? Uh, you could say it's technology, but I don't think it's technology. Like, it's it seems like back, back then, it was still very similar to how it used to be back, you know, back in the, in Russia even, where, like, th-there was a Rebbe, there was a chassid of the Rebbe around him. And then there are the cities with the communities, and some people go to visit the Rebbe from time to time. But like, your life doesn't revolve around Lubavitch. It revolves basic- around your city, right? And you're connected through different ways to that, right?

18:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

18:07 Speaker 2 That's what, that's what it sounds like it was when you were growing up, and today that's just so foreign. Like, it doesn't-- that whole model doesn't exist. It was-

18:14 Speaker 1 Well, yeah, for me, it also shifted once I came back, um

18:18 Speaker 2 But the, but today even before you would go to 770, you would be educated for it to revolve around 770, right? Like, if you were growing up in Melbourne today, even though it's after Gematamos, right, you would still be brought up that, like, the core and the center is New York or the core and the center is the Rebbe, right?

18:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely shifted. Definitely shifted there. Again, I, I, I go back a lot, you know, but, um, like to Melbourne, um, so I sort of see superficially what I see. Obviously, the-- first of all, the, the body, the school body has changed a lot. It's predominantly Lubavitch, and now you have a cheder, and just like the whole staff seems... It's, it's a whole new staff, a whole new generation. So it, it, it definitely is more, if you wanna call it Rebbe-centric than, like, us growing up, you know, with the old guard. Definitely. Um, and then-- So if you wanna, you know... I, I, I listened to the interview with, uh, or conversation you had with my brother Moshe, and I was trying to pinpoint. So he's, he's looking for some tipping point, you know. And, uh, so ma- which made me think about, okay, what, what, what is the tipping point? Which is like this transition from everything becoming much more, you know, about the Rebbe. And like, like for me, inconceivable that I go to Miami. Like, I'm, I'm not going anywhere else but New York, you know.

19:47 Speaker 2 Right.

19:47 Speaker 1 That's, that's where I wanna be. So I, I... And it's, it's hard to, it's hard to put your finger on anything specific. And then there's, you know, then there's the aron, and then there's what's going on in your own life. So really the only vantage point and paradigm that I can speak from is my, is from my own experience. So having come back to Melbourne now, like, lit up, so now I'm just more receptive to things. So, like, let's say the shluchim. Okay? So yes, they're always there, and they always had... So they ran a sipat Shabbos, and they gave shiurim to, to, to, um, high school students, you know, throughout the week. That was, um... But as-- But now having been in New York, I was just, you know, more receptive to a deeper level-

20:37 Speaker 2 Right

20:37 Speaker 1 ...of, of what they had to offer. And then, um, also technology started to change. Of course, the, you know, early technology was talking about hookups. That, that wasn't so common in Melbourne. It, it started to kick in, you know, in the late seventies where, when early eighties, where every farbrengen was now broadcast live, quote-unquote.

20:58 Speaker 2 Audio.

20:58 Speaker 1 You know, hookup. Audio, yeah. So that also was a sh- that also was a shift. Um, and if you were i-- if you were in the quote-unquote olei Torah program, and there was a farbrengen, so that was most of your day, right? Because the farbrengens were like either eleven thirty AM start at Melbourne time or one thirty PM. So, uh, started paying more attention to that.

21:23 Speaker 2 Right.

21:23 Speaker 1 And, uh, I happened, happened that one of the teachers in the olei Torah program, so I was probably fourteen or fifteen, he was a Gerer Hasid. He was not all that excited that we're taking off four hours, you know, of the day to listen to a farbrengen. So... And he loved to pick on me in particular 'cause he was a good friend with my brothers. So he wanted to make sure that I was not, you know, messing around, that I could actually re-re-repeat at least some of the take of the farbrengen. So to his credit, I, I spoke about this actually last year in Melbourne, this Kislev. I have a, I have a, uh, a book of like of my own hanochas.

22:08 Speaker 2 Notebook.

22:08 Speaker 1 You know, to whatever extent. A notebook. You know-

22:10 Speaker 2 Right

22:10 Speaker 1 ...to whatever extent I could transcribe while the Rebbe was speaking. So this is from fourteen, fifteen years old. I'm writing so that I should be able to, um, repeat him at least some take of the farbrengen. So all of this is gradually, you know, it's becoming more immersive. And then my next chance to jump on to a plane and come back to New York was two years later to shiurim dalet. You know, now he's itching and aching, um, to, uh, you know, to go back to New York.

22:37 Speaker 2 What was so, what was so powerful about New York? I know I, I emphasize this with your brother also. It's worth emphasizing again 'cause you take it for granted, but a lot of people listening don't... might, may not know it. Like, you grew up in a very, very comfortable set-up life, right? Like, like, you, you weren't missing-- It wouldn't seem like you grew up missing something at home, right?

23:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:02 Speaker 2 No.

23:02 Speaker 1 Not at all.

23:03 Speaker 2 Your parents are, are wonderful people, had made a beautiful life for you. Australia's a beautiful place to live.

23:08 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

23:09 Speaker 2 Like the, the story of like, you know, "My life wasn't working, so I found something else over there. I went running."

23:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:14 Speaker 2 It doesn't seem like that would be the story for you.

23:17 Speaker 1 No, but-

23:17 Speaker 2 So like what-

23:18 Speaker 1 It's not, not like that. It was... But what, what it was was, um, I think bringing, bringing my life really to life, which means bringing the things that I had learned about, just really bringing them to life. So I'll give you an example. I mentioned this in a Jam interview. Um, tekias. So, you know, so growing up in Melbourne, okay, it's beautiful. Ba-Baalt Teshuva shul Rosh Hashanah was very uplifting. Rabbi Groner was a incredible baal tfilah.

23:57 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

23:57 Speaker 1 You know. And I know every bit yof ki of his nusach, as most Melbournians do. And, and Rabbi Chaim Sabransky, alav hashalom, was a very Chassidishe Yid.

24:08 Speaker 2 Chaim Sabransky?

24:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Chaim, Chaim was a baal tikiyah.

24:12 Speaker 2 Who's Chaim? I guess I didn't meet him.

24:14 Speaker 1 Chaim was Rav's older brother.

24:16 Speaker 2 Older brother. The one that eventually moved to New York?

24:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:18 Speaker 2 Okay. So I did... So I-

24:20 Speaker 1 He was the quintessential Chassidish balabos 'cause he owned a business.

24:24 Speaker 2 I see.

24:25 Speaker 1 And... But he was a very Chassidishe Yid. He was the baal tikiyah.

24:30 Speaker 2 And their father also lived there at the time.

24:31 Speaker 1 Rav Zalman. Yeah. I'm talking now specifically about tekias.

24:35 Speaker 2 I see.

24:35 Speaker 1 So, um, so I'm just giving an, an illustration of not pshat that I was missing something, but what I sort of experienced on a whole different level. So okay, Rosh Hashanah, we gave the torah, however you wanna describe it. But then I remember standing by tekios, by the Rebbe for the first time. This is Mem-Bet, so I'm thirteen years old. So I have a cousin, Yankee Barber, um, so he lives today in New York.

25:08 Speaker 2 Sure.

25:09 Speaker 1 So-

25:09 Speaker 2 He taught me for a year.

25:10 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. So he, he was the seasoned guy. So there was a bench, a side bench. In other words, a bench on its side, right on the side of the washing machine, and the washing machine is the area in front of the bimah.

25:25 Speaker 2 Right, right, right.

25:26 Speaker 1 And next to that, there's the benches and then the platform with the rest of the fabric. Anyway, so he created the quote-unquote Australian bench.

25:34 Speaker 2 Which means to qualify, you had to be Australian.

25:36 Speaker 1 Right. I'm the youngest one, so he's like the captain. He's like the captain of the ship 'cause he's at the front and I'm, I'm, I'm in the back 'cause I'm the youngest.

25:45 Speaker 2 Wait, this is one bench?

25:47 Speaker 1 One bench.

25:48 Speaker 2 How many people are on this one bench?

25:49 Speaker 1 Oh, this one bench, first of all, it, it's about a s- it, it's a, it's about a six-foot bench. There's about 12 guys on it. Not only that, but it's turned on its side, so you're not... Be-because next to us on the left is a bench that's flat, so that gives them a few inches on us. The only reason he could create it was to turn it on its side, so we're four inches lower than the bench to the left of us. You understand? So I'm mentioning that because we didn't have flat footing. You weren't standing on the flat side of the bench.

26:18 Speaker 2 Right.

26:18 Speaker 1 You're standing on the side of the bench, so most of your foot is off the bench.

26:22 Speaker 2 Two inches, you have two inches, yeah.

26:23 Speaker 1 And I'm on the back, which means behind me is the first row of benches, uh, behind the rabbi. Point, e-e-excruciating pain. 'Cause this, this Australian kid, you know, coming from this very balabatishe home like what, what, what are you missing? Or like, what are you crazy? You went from a beautiful, comfortable Rosh Hashanah to excruciating pain most of, most of davening. I remember walking out, well, not only me, but everyone, walking out of Rosh Hashanah. You were drenched. Y-you felt you'd come out of a washing machine. You look at the pages of the machzor by Rosh Hashanah, crunched as like your... But, but you know, like, "Bama Nachshfu," but I remember seeing tekios and thinking to myself, "Oh my God, this has been in a machzor. This, this, this, this has been in a machzor. This is happening right here, right now before my eyes." You see the Pedyayunus, the letters, the bags on, on the bimah. It was like, "Wow, we talk about Iychim, Yomus, the fate of the world is being written, the script is being written. This is, it's hap- this is it. This is it." It was like... So after that, it was like, with all due respect to the Kehova Rosh Hashanah in Melbourne, this is like, this, this is where it's at. So it was, it wasn't like I was missing something. It was, but it just opened up a whole different level of reality, and it's like, w-why would you wanna be anywhere else once you've tasted that?

27:58 Speaker 2 Mm. Do you remember any part of Rosh Hashanah besides the tekios?

28:06 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. I mean, the main highlights of Rosh Hashanah-

28:10 Speaker 2 I'm saying was the David-- You, 'cause with Rabbi Groner, you talked about the Nusach.

28:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:14 Speaker 2 With the Rebbes, always or... I shouldn't say always. Here, you spoke about the tekios.

28:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:19 Speaker 2 And it usually is what people speak about. Do, do you remember the Nusach of the davening in Rosh Hashanah, or you're too busy pushing for a place for the tekios?

28:28 Speaker 1 Well, me, me personally being into, you know, you know, music and whatever, yes, I did, I did, and I learned the style over the years of, uh, Yosef Weinberg and, uh, Berkowitz and, you know, whoever the Ballet Fila were. Um, you know, I definitely paid some attention to that.

28:47 Speaker 2 No, but you know what I, you know what I mean.

28:48 Speaker 1 But it was nothing like Groner. It was nothing, it was nothing, you know, like that. Of course, the, the, you know, the singing in Seven Seventy was so incredibly inspiring. You know, thousands of people singing together and the Rebbe conducting, you know, with, uh, with his movements on the standard. "Avinu Malkeinu" or whatever, singing of Rosh Hashanah was, uh, as much was singing on Yom Kippur, but, um, whatever-

29:11 Speaker 2 My question is, my question is, in, in, in, in Australia, it would seem like you remember your experience. Like, like what, what you, like what you were doing on Rosh Hashanah, right? 'Cause as much as Rabbi Groner or Rabbi Serebransky are figures, they're, they're not-- it's not so revolved around them that, that it's-- Rosh Hashanah is a given Yom Tov for, for like how did I feel? I f- right? How did, how did I daven and so on. My question is if people felt the same way in Seven Seventy or if it was like the Rebbe's presence was too powerful to, to pay-- like, what, I'm gonna pay attention to how, how I feel- Or how I'm davening on Rosh Hashanah, like...

29:52 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, first of all, what you said about Melbourne, I'm not sure it was that accurate because the big buzz after, after Yom Tov was always, you know, "How did Groner do today?"

30:01 Speaker 2 Okay. Fair.

30:02 Speaker 1 And, and Groner was always eager to, um, to hear feedback too. In fact, he waited every mid-day Rosh Hashanah for my mother to call 'cause my mother was the big maven-

30:13 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

30:13 Speaker 1 ... and give him, you know, the kishka on his davening. So it wasn't like-

30:17 Speaker 2 Right. Your mo- your mother's a singer, for those who don't know.

30:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

30:19 Speaker 2 Your mother's a singer.

30:20 Speaker 1 She's, you know, a big maven and, and Rabbi Groner knew that, so he always waited for her call, and-

30:25 Speaker 2 Right

30:25 Speaker 1 ... made him very happy.

30:28 Speaker 2 That's funny.

30:28 Speaker 1 So he w- he loomed big. He loomed big, and his davening, his, his voice was large, and his davening was large. He was big. He loomed, he loomed big. So I wouldn't say it was all just about your own personal spiritual experience.

30:42 Speaker 2 No, but I, I didn't say... No, I understand that. But it seems like there was room for, for the-- That's what Balabatishe is ultimately. I'm, I'm-- Ich bin ekht a mentsh. I also have a seat, right? I have my, my, my little place.

30:53 Speaker 1 Right.

30:54 Speaker 2 So-

30:55 Speaker 1 Right

30:55 Speaker 2 ... the, in Seven Seventy, was there room for that, or was it f- or like, like do you remember your davening on Rosh Hashanah in Seven Seventy? Was-- Is that like even a thing? Or, or is it like now to mean that, that it's like, "Keneg b'ne avoka," like talking about my davening, like-

31:14 Speaker 1 Well, look, I'm, I'm reflecting back on it now. I would say Beshaite-- No, Beshaite, it's... To, to-- I guess the only sense of self-awareness is, let's say in my case, you know, "Asher botedu cholkeinu" that I, I have the opportunity to, to see this, to, to, to bear witness to this, to this pure truth, you know? But Beshaite, no, it's all about... Okay, it's all about the bittel to the moment and, and, and to the experience that, you know, you're, you're, that you're a part of. Um, but then, you know, to internalize anything, you have to personalize it and, and, and, and process it. In a way, if it's not at all about you, then that, that then becomes makef. I mean, it has to re- it has to relate back to you. Um, so I think it's a difference between... It's sort of like, you know, you're a videographer or photographer when you're-- But when you're-- So you're like an obser- you're observing, you know, an experience. But when you're, like, in it, just be, just, you just lose yourself, and, and to really immerse and to be present to the moment, you just allow yourself to be completely absorbed into the moment, and then you can, you know, process it later.

32:34 Speaker 2 Absolutely. It makes, it makes total sense. I mean, it's also-- I was actually speaking with your father-in-law the other day, and this is what we're t- one of the things we were talking about was, uh, Chaim Shijurzin. Um, and we were speaking about that, like, 'cause he, he was talking about how when there's too much bittel or too much self-nullification, it can become a pathology where a person feels worthless, and that's not the intention. But of course, there are moments where bittel is absolutely appropriate, right? Like, a-a-and Chassidus talks about this at length, where, like, the Talmid, the B'nei Rabbi, right? B'nei Rabbi, when the Talmid's in front of the Rav, then bittel is not only appropriate, it's necessary, 'cause otherwise you're not a keli. You're not open to receiving. You're not gonna grow if you're s- always self-aware, right? 'Cause, 'cause then your self-awareness gets in the way. And so the, the, the, the, the tension is to be able to have that moment and then come back to yourself and change yourself as well, right? So I mean, ab- absolutely, it rings true a hundred percent. The reason I'm pointing at it is because, you know, 'cause then you s- 'cause then you said earlier that once you had it once, you wanted to have it, you wanted to move back there. Which, which makes sense. I mean, you see that kind of drama, why would you... And you feel like it's available to you, why wouldn't you wanna have more of it?

33:50 Speaker 2 But then if you, if you throw yourself into the soup, right? You don't, you don't go to Miami on the way to seven seventy. When do you have an opportunity to internalize it if you're constantly there?

34:03 Speaker 1 Okay. Well, I had the opportunity because I had breaks, you know, in between. Came back after Tisha B'Av, and I wasn't there f- you know, till two years later. Um, but it's like-

34:15 Speaker 2 No, I'm talking about later, once you, once you came back.

34:16 Speaker 1 Okay. Now you're just reminding me now of I remember coming back after Tisha, and most Australians had never been to New York, certainly not for Tisha. And I, I remember describing it to a guy, Chassidish guy.

34:33 Speaker 2 Your age or like a-

34:34 Speaker 1 No, a little older

34:35 Speaker 2 ... little older.

34:36 Speaker 1 Little older. And then he starts describing, he starts telling me about Simchat Torah and whatever in Melbourne. I'm like-

34:42 Speaker 2 Buddy.

34:42 Speaker 1 "Are you serious?" I mean, what are you... By the way, I, I, Rabbi G- I, I forgot about this, that a book came out about Rabbi Groner, um, Larger Than Life. So there's actually a footnote there in the book. He mentions me. I don't know why I remember... Now I recall the story. I'd forgotten it. It was-

35:01 Speaker 2 The author mentions you?

35:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. But, uh, he had heard this, he had heard this from Rabbi Groner. So this is Tisha mem gimel, so this is the Tisha in between. So, um, uh, now, sorry, Rabbi Groner also led the whole Hakafos.

35:17 Speaker 2 Right.

35:17 Speaker 1 You know, could you imagine? He's standing in the middle of the dance floor, and he's so-- He's, he's leading that Hakafos. So Melbourne was a... You know, it's about Baaltteshe community. A lot of, a lot of the, um, members of the community, not necessarily Anash.

35:30 Speaker 2 Right.

35:30 Speaker 1 So, so he's saying a lot of Baaltteshe songs-

35:33 Speaker 2 Right

35:33 Speaker 1 ... you know, um, during Hakafos. I came back, you know, I was on fire. I wasn't gonna allow any of that. So I, I started, uh, I started, I started leading the Neguna back Hakafos, a little pisher, fourteen years old. And Rabbi, Rabbi Groner announced he's officially relinquishing control of Hakafos to me. He couldn't stop it. Not in a bad way. He did-- He said, "That's it." He's yielding, you know?

36:02 Speaker 2 This is how he survived as a rebbe of that community for decades. He knew which fights to pick.

36:08 Speaker 1 This is to his credit, you know? So, um, yeah, so I had a chance. And then, and then, um, it was after mem daled that I made the decision I'm not continuing with, uh, high school, which I said was made much easier by my brother Moshe having already, you know, paved that path for me. So I ended up going to Yeshivah Gedolah young. Actually, the policy up, up until that point, you went to YG after you graduated, most after you graduated matric, which is like eighteen. They made an exception, and myself and, and Mendy Groner went into YG at sixteen. So then, you know, th- then I, I had roommates with the shluchim who were there, and these were just fantastic guys who were Chassidish Chevere, Yosef Berkovich, Yenishur, Shalom Reichik, Machor Garari, um, Sorley Rosenfeld, and there's Harlen, I think was the sixth. Um, so I really got very close with them, and, uh, they... So this to the point of Miami. So now they add another layer to this, which is Ole Deide. Well, Oholei Torah was like not on the radar. People in Melbourne had heard of Morristown. Um, my older cousin, Rav Ami, knew, um, went to yeshiva in Morristown, a bunch of, bunch of guys five, six, seven, eight years older than me. It's like either you went-- If you're going to the Lubavitch Yeshiva, either you went to Kfar Chabad or Morristown. No one ever heard of Oholei Torah.

37:41 Speaker 2 They hadn't heard of it, or they couldn't understand-

37:43 Speaker 1 No, but nobody in Melbourne ever heard of Oholei Torah. It was like just, just not on anyone's radar.

37:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Why not? It was a new yeshiva, like-

37:50 Speaker 1 Oholei Torah-

37:51 Speaker 2 Or they thought it was a crazy place.

37:52 Speaker 1 No, no. For, for, for many years, Oholei Torah was a local institution.

37:57 Speaker 2 I see.

37:58 Speaker 1 Only in the, in the, the early mems did it start attracting bochurim from out of town and, and started to become more of an international yeshiva. So when I came to the zal, the big buzz was ninety bochurim in the zal. Like, wow.

38:12 Speaker 2 In Oholei Torah?

38:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, wow. It was like, oh, Oholei Torah is like now going to a whole another level. So Oholei Torah was transitioning now to becoming this big, you know, international-

38:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

38:24 Speaker 1 ... yeshiva, but it was just starting. These guys-

38:27 Speaker 2 So until the mems, it was the norm was not to come to be by the Rebbe until you were much older.

38:33 Speaker 1 Until seven seventy, yeah.

38:34 Speaker 2 So you had to-

38:35 Speaker 1 Actually, I should say either-

38:36 Speaker 2 After shlichus even, 'cause there were shlichus already.

38:39 Speaker 1 Huh?

38:39 Speaker 2 Seven seventy was after shlichus.

38:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. So actually, the three yeshivas were Kfar Chabad, Morristown, or Montreal.

38:44 Speaker 2 Right.

38:45 Speaker 1 A bunch of guys went to Montreal.

38:46 Speaker 2 Right.

38:46 Speaker 1 But seven seventy, what you came to when you were twenty-two, twenty-three, either if you're an Australian, loved Africa, you went on shlichus, but and you may have gone through other systems, and it wasn't-- the system was not, the pathway was not as, uh, clean or whatever-

39:00 Speaker 2 Rigid, yeah

39:00 Speaker 1 ... as it is now. But yeah, seven seventy, you were an older, you know, twenty-two, twenty-three.

39:05 Speaker 2 Maybe that's a tipping point, if you're looking for a tipping point. May- That, that could easily be a tipping point.

39:10 Speaker 1 Coming, coming younger, coming younger. So this is the first, th-this is the first wave of Australians starting to, to come to Oholei Torah younger, so, um... And, and a lot of that was influenced by these bochurim who-- Okay, half the kvutze was Morristown, half were Oholei Torah. All kivilt Chassidishervte. Um, but a real close connection with the guys from Oholei Torah, and I started to hear stories about the Rebbe Yisroel, about Rabbi Gelitsky, and about Rav Nachman. So they, they, they became like mythical figures to me.

39:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

39:43 Speaker 1 And, uh, so-

39:46 Speaker 2 That's what it was? It was, it was Rebbe Yisroel that attracted you to Oholei Torah?

39:49 Speaker 1 It was hearing stories-

39:49 Speaker 2 It wasn't Morristown or Reb Meilech. I mean, they had people there too.

39:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not saying they didn't. And, and, and-

39:53 Speaker 2 It wasn't being next to the Rebbe in seven seventy?

39:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, so that was all part of that.

39:58 Speaker 2 I see.

39:58 Speaker 1 And by the way, Reb Meilech's future eidem, Michoel Berari, was one of the bochurim in one of the shluchim in Melbourne, and kivilt a guy-

40:08 Speaker 2 From, from Oholei Torah

40:09 Speaker 1 ... from Morristown, Morristown. So he actually used to talk all about Reb Meilech.

40:12 Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

40:13 Speaker 1 Ended up becoming his eidem.

40:15 Speaker 2 Interesting.

40:15 Speaker 1 So, um, but it was that. Yeah, no, it was Oholei Torah, it was not just about Dann Holo. It was also the-- It was, it was an annex to seven seventy.

40:23 Speaker 2 Mm.

40:24 Speaker 1 So I'm hearing about, and Reb Pinchas, and, and, and going to Kriya on Mondays and Thursdays. It was like a whole annex to seven seventy. So, um, so I, I was just chomping at the bit to be able to leave YG and come to Oholei Torah. So here also, Baruch Hashem, my next brother, Chaim, alav hashalom, he got married at the beginning of mem hei. And, uh, I saw this as an opening, even though Dann Holo in Melbourne made it unequivocal they're not gonna give me a shul to leave 'cause I'm still eighteen. Even though I'd already-

40:58 Speaker 2 Rabbi Cohen.

40:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. Even though I'd already served two years in Melbourne.

41:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

41:02 Speaker 1 But I'm eighteen, so that's not the protocol.

41:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, Rabbi Cohen's very into protocols.

41:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I c- so I came to New York, and I had to devise a plan. So I went to Oholei Torah to see, you know, this place that I'm hearing about from, uh... And you feel-- Compare the zal in Melbourne, this beautiful, you know, Dann Oholei Torah-

41:21 Speaker 2 Well, it used to be like a re- a, a vacation home-

41:23 Speaker 1 The base-

41:23 Speaker 2 ... for the royalty or something

41:24 Speaker 1 ... for the royalty, yeah. To this dingy basement in, on, on Troy Avenue.

41:31 Speaker 2 And we haven't even spoken about the Union Street mikveh yet.

41:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, I had other mikvehs before I got there. Um, and, uh, this dingy basement, and the noise-

41:43 Speaker 2 Where, where was this basement?

41:44 Speaker 1 On Troy.

41:45 Speaker 2 Oh, it was only a basement at the time?

41:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was-

41:47 Speaker 2 What was, what was upstairs?

41:49 Speaker 1 It was the shul, the Reiner Shul.

41:51 Speaker 2 Oh, the, the, the shul.

41:52 Speaker 1 The zal was in the basement.

41:53 Speaker 2 Ugh.

41:55 Speaker 1 Stuffy, overcrowded, never enough chairs. And if you, if you took the risk of going to the bathroom, you were gonna come back, you were not gonna have a chair until the next guy went to the bathroom. So every time Rebbe, Rebbe Yosef Rosenfeld alav hashalom used to visit the zal, we used to start this quiet chant, "We need chairs. We still need chairs." So this thunderous thing, "We still need chairs." Eventually, they replaced the chairs with benches, which somewhat alleviated the problem. But I was also like, I could not believe the thunderous noise. The zal in Melbourne was a-almost a library next to the thunder of, uh, of Oholei Torah. So I had heard so much about the Rebbe Yisroel, he was my first go-to. Um, a-and, uh, I said to him, "I wanna join the yeshiva." He took an instant liking to me, this Australisher, you know, Schokoladniker. Um, he said, "We'll be happy to have you, but, uh, you need, you need a title. You need, you know, you need a shul." So I wrote to the Rebbe, and, uh, and the Rebbe answered. I said, "I wanna, you know, I wanna come to Oholei Torah." The Rebbe answered me, "Kim hi furism katsasa Dann Holo." So I wasn't-- it wasn't clear to me which Dann Holo the Rebbe was referring to, so I went back to the Rebbe Yisroel, and he said, "The Rebbe means Dann Holo that you're coming from, obviously." So now I'm in a quandary. How am I gonna

43:17 Speaker 1 accomplish this? Anyway- I'll never forget staying in the Crown Hotel on Crown Street. It was right after my brother's wedding, and with trepidation, I call Marbush my hand is shaking, I call YG, and, uh, Yeshivah Gedolah, and I'm praying that Rabbi Soski picks up the phone. Rabbi Oliver Shalom, who just passed away. He was the mashgiach. He was also the mashgiach at yeshiva, and he picked up the phone. I said to him, "I wanna stay in New York, and I need your hashos." And he said, "Listen, if you're gonna come back to Melbourne, and all you're gonna be thinking about is that you wanna be in New York, better just stay in New York." And I'm like, "Yes," jumping for joy. Years and years later, just a few years ago, I went up to Mr. Soski. I never really thanked you for giving me that karas atay. It changed my life. You gave me my ticket, you know, to the rebbe, to freedom to New York. So that's it. So now, you know, now I'm in Olatara. Now I'm in, like... And that was if, uh, Tishrei and whatever, life-changing, this is, this is a whole nother level of a life-changing experience.

44:27 Speaker 2 Did it ever get old?

44:28 Speaker 1 Huh?

44:28 Speaker 2 Did it ever get old?

44:30 Speaker 1 What?

44:30 Speaker 2 Like, once you, once you have what you wanted from afar, you know, it, it doesn't... It loses, it loses its, its glitter.

44:40 Speaker 1 Luster?

44:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:41 Speaker 1 Its glitter? I don't know. I don't think so. Um, you know, I've still, I'm still coming from Australia. It's still all somewhat bederch is chachos for me. Also, in Olatara, so it's like, um, the rock stars of Olatara was Shir Dalet. So it's not like, it wasn't like all the same. It was like in Olatara itself, it was like sort of this graduation. I started in Shir Baz, you know, and looking up Shir Dalet, it was actually your uncle, Yehudi, and, uh-

45:16 Speaker 2 In Olatara?

45:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. They were the Shir Dalet guys. They were like-

45:20 Speaker 2 Nasi Nemes.

45:21 Speaker 1 Nasi Nemes, all those guys. Um, they were sort of like the, the rock stars of the zal. And once, different privileges kicked in at Shir Dalet. Shir Dalet, you could go to Kriya and without having the chazzan remind me to the pinya and whatever. And it was just like, you were like getting ready to go on shlichas. Another level. You were like the leaders of the zal. So even within Olatara, it was like, you're looking to the day when you're gonna be the guys. You know, you're gonna be in Shir Dalet. Also, the, you know, the teachers changed, the mashbim changed. So it wasn't like the same, it wasn't on like-

45:57 Speaker 2 Mm

45:57 Speaker 1 ... repeat, you know. So Shir Baz, Rabbi Kalitzky. It was a whole, it was the whole geshmak, you know, of itself. He's such a beautiful person, such a warm-

46:06 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah

46:07 Speaker 1 ... and loving person. It was, it was just beautiful.

46:10 Speaker 2 Pe-pedi bear.

46:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, we were very... And, and then Mashbia's Fitcha Pevzner also.

46:17 Speaker 2 Also a nice guy, yeah.

46:18 Speaker 1 So beautiful, sweet memories. And then Shir Gimel, Reb Yisroel, he's actually Shir Gimel and Shir Dalet, and Reb Nachman. Uh, my class, we got very close to Reb Nachman. Very close.

46:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:30 Speaker 1 And we, we did not let him live. We farbrenged, came out every Thursday night, and we also crashed his house almost Friday, every Friday night. Um, also had some very memorable farbrengens with Rabbi Farkas, who was the menal. So no, it was exciting. It was, it was just very exciting.

46:50 Speaker 2 Mm. What, what was, what was the place or was your place for internalizing when you're, when you're, when things are so, are coming at you so, so fast and heavy? 'Cause before when I asked you the question, you said that you went back to Australia for a year in between, but now you're, you're in the soup. Like you're, you're, you're there.

47:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, I think that's, that, that might be a more loaded question than you may maybe even realize or maybe not. I think in a way, f- at least for me personally, um, I think I had to really start confronting that question after Gimel Tammuz.

47:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

47:38 Speaker 1 Because in some way, until Gimel Tammuz, um, there was always the room, you know, whatever the room looked like, there was no room that you were a part of. And after Gimel Tammuz, that whole room changed. And I think, uh, and it took, took me a long time myself to even get to that point where to realize that that room has changed. And now you have to look internally, okay, how, how, how deeply did you actually process all of it? How, how real-

48:17 Speaker 2 Mm

48:17 Speaker 1 ... how real was it all? So, uh, and, and I'm still answering this question-

48:23 Speaker 2 Hmm

48:23 Speaker 1 ... by the way.

48:26 Speaker 2 Hmm. Yeah, because it, it's, because when, when we, when we, when, when I think about a tipping point or things changing, it would seem that the, the answer I'm getting from you is that, is that in general with tipping points, what happens is that things build up slowly, slowly, slowly until they hit a critical mass, and then, then suddenly it tips. Like they say, gradually then suddenly, right? Um, and it would seem like what happened was, is that like the, the core of Lubavitch for so long or at the beginning was, was a smaller thing in proportion to the Lubavitcher in general. But with time, it became more and more of its... It bec- it became more, it became bigger and bigger to the point that everything else got swallowed up into it or, or you could be swallowed up into it. So for example, you brought up Olatara. Like the Olatara becoming a yeshiva destination where now people are... Now there's a... So, so now there are Bachum coming from Olatara to YG telling younger Bachum, and there are, there are other Olatara Bachum going to other yeshivas telling younger Bachum about it.

49:40 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

49:40 Speaker 2 Now those younger Bachum come to Olatara, and then Olatara gets bigger, and now there are more people going out from Olatara, right? It, it, that's how critical mass is built.

49:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

49:49 Speaker 2 And, and so Lubavitch becomes more and more... Like it's not just that it became more Rebbe-centric, it became like more core heavy. Like, like the, the center of gravity becomes bigger and bigger, where like you're either in it or you're out of it, right? You're, you're either in the core, you're either s- in the, in that room like you, the way you called it, the room, right? There's no room.

50:11 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

50:11 Speaker 2 There, there's a, there's a, there's a essentially a line, a periphery, either you're inside or you're outside it, which didn't exist earlier. And, and, you know, like almost the irony of it is, is that it builds and builds towards that. If-- at least the story that you're telling me and other stories that I've heard, it became more and more, as it-- stronger, the core became more and more intense and more and more enveloping with the years, and then suddenly it disappears. And so the q-- right? Or suddenly it fragments, and the question becomes, now what? Now what? Because the re-- the, the, the Itche Dov-- the Rabbi Groner that you describe talking about his memories back in the day of the Friediker Rebbe and who else did you say?

51:01 Speaker 1 Reb Shmuel.

51:02 Speaker 2 And Reb Shmuel, but still very present, you know, in hi-- in, in the zechus of and tziyus of Melbourne and his nusach. That's the old school model, right?

51:13 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

51:13 Speaker 2 There, there's the high moments, but you're still very present outside of those moments. But then it changes over the decades to the point where everything is centralized, everything is very, very close to the core.

51:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

51:25 Speaker 2 And then the question becomes, now what? Like, like, what happens? That to me is, is how I read it.

51:33 Speaker 1 So meaning, uh, uh, if I need to understand better what you're asking.

51:37 Speaker 2 I haven't asked a question yet.

51:38 Speaker 1 When you talk about the core, when you're talking about the core, you haven't really defined what the, what that core is, and, and I don't know if you're describing a disintegration, an expansion, or of what, what transition are you describing?

51:51 Speaker 2 So, no, so the, so first, the core is, meaning the core is, let's say, the Rabbi Skvozker or, or the... What, what, what, what, what you phrase as the room, right?

52:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

52:04 Speaker 2 Right? The, it doesn't seem like there was an room that you were aware of when you were growing up. There was a rebbe in New York. There's a seven seventy in New York.

52:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:13 Speaker 2 But I could be, you know, we're the Lubavitch community here. We're not, we're not missing out on the room, like the story that you described, where, like, you're talking about zechus of seven seventy, so I was trying to explain to you how amazing it was in Melbourne, and you're like, "You don't get it." They're like, "You're, you're on the outside here. You're not in the in." But he doesn't, at the time, he doesn't realize that.

52:32 Speaker 1 Right.

52:32 Speaker 2 Right? The room or this kind of, this kind of periphery, this almost you could call the haftarah blast radius, but in a good sense, right? This, there's a blast radius. There's a, there's a, there's a explosion of energy, and then there's how far it reaches, and either you're inside it or you're outside it. But, but it's there. It's a real thing, right?

52:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

52:52 Speaker 2 It would seem like, it seemed like in the beginning it was less, it, it, the blast radius was smaller, right? And so it was there, but m-most people were outside of it, and so that was the norm. With time, the blast radius gets bigger and bigger.

53:09 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:10 Speaker 2 Now more and more people are inside of it, right? And so if you're outs-- it's norm-normal to be inside, not to be outside.

53:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:17 Speaker 2 That's what it sounds like to me.

53:19 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:19 Speaker 2 I mean, what do you... Does it, the, the... Is that an accurate reading?

53:24 Speaker 1 Um, yeah, you know, uh, it's funny 'cause, you know, you-- w-we're talking about the mems, and, you know, when you speak to, let's say, or you listen to, I don't know, like the Shloime Zochers of the world, the Leib Shapiros of the world, you know, to them, it's like it's, it's the chufs, you know, it's the roaring chufs. And then you speak to chassidim from the lameds, you know, it's the, the roaring lameds, like the-

53:46 Speaker 2 Right

53:46 Speaker 1 ... this was the tkufa. You know, this was it. You know, for me, okay, it was the mems and then, and then, and then the early nuns. But, but it was definitely the core was much, much, much, uh, uh, almost elite, you know?

54:01 Speaker 2 Elite.

54:01 Speaker 1 Almost, yeah.

54:03 Speaker 2 Earlier on.

54:03 Speaker 1 Earlier on.

54:04 Speaker 2 Yeah.

54:04 Speaker 1 And it became, it just became more accessible to, to, to more people as everything expanded and grew on every level. Look, I, I, I think that, uh, in, in, in a way, and, and that's why I said Kim L'Talmos was very, you know, confronting in terms of how much did you internalize because the nature of a room is also that you can just get sort of swept up in it.

54:30 Speaker 2 Right.

54:30 Speaker 1 You know? Um, I think what's unique today with the lack of that room is that, you know, today, the big thinking of today is ownership. We're gonna own, today's generation wants to own its Yiddishkeit and own its chassidus, which means almost like a g- "I wanna opt in."

54:54 Speaker 2 Right.

54:54 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, in, in, in many ways, you could argue that that's healthier, stronger, and more sustainable model. Um, truth is, I, I, I, I spoke about this this morning. I mean, today's a yem yeim. You know, what's amitis Yiddishkeit chassidus? It's the, you know, it's this, the Rebbe chose this entry, even though it's a vort from Friediker Rebbe. Aligning my maimonium, aligning yourself with my thinking. So in a way, even when the room was there, but the real amitis Yiddishkeit chassidus always was to internalize it through, through learning and through, you know, learning maimonium, learning the sifris, aligning yourself with the Rebbe's thinking, how he sees the world, and obviously, okay, you, you, you, you align yourself with that. But to-today, today, you sort of, you have to choose more to, to go that route.

55:50 Speaker 2 Right.

55:51 Speaker 1 You're not sort of being carried. You know, I... It's interesting that the Rebbe said, "Toshinu dalaf," you know, "This is not gonna be a party, and I'm not, I'm not gonna to just flap my wings for you to just sit on and, and, uh, do all the work for you." But the reality is that the Rebbe's presence was so Powerful and such a magnet and created such an arum that, uh, it wasn't that hard to hold onto the clam kit, at least at the arum level. So I think that, uh-

56:23 Speaker 2 Was there a tension then? Do you remember there being a tension then of like being swept away with arum versus, let's say, learning a maimer? Was that a tension or, or just-

56:34 Speaker 1 You know, look at the, the, the Mashpiyim, certainly some of the, you know, the Fabregans, you know, um, hammered this a lot, that, you know, you can't, uh, you can't allow the scholars to just be, you know, Chassidnisdik and then, then, then just, you know, the whole arum and the, you know, the avir. You know, you have to internalize it. You gotta learn it. This is Chabad. You gotta, you gotta internalize it. So yeah, that, you know, the gauntlet of that was thrown out, obviously. But I think that overall it was just, you know, we're just too premature to really, at least to know how much you truly internalized it because the arum was so strong and so powerful. Mashinkin today, you know, e-either it's real or it's not, it's not sustainable.

57:30 Speaker 2 Mm. So, so how would you-- I-I mean, this is, this to me is like the most fascinating-- This, this is, this is like the, it, it's, it's, it's the nub of everything because, like, so many people will, will, will start the question or start the story at, let's say, Gimmel Tammuz, which is like an obvious point of before and after, right? Everything changed on that day. But to me, obviously, Gimmel Tammuz came after other things that happened. Like, there was something that you mentioned how on Sukkos Terelam with Ches, when that became more of a focal point or more in focus in Melbourne, which makes a lot of sense because suddenly, suddenly you can't take him for granted anymore.

58:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:25 Speaker 2 And I mean, this is life when s- when a, when a dear one is suddenly, you know, is, is not well, you suddenly realize how much they mean to you. And so, like, that's a moment where thing-- That, that's a before and after moment in Lubavitch thinking. And then what you're describing here, this kufah of, of the arum and, and the arum becoming so powerful and so, so enveloping, that's also a before and after, right? And, and like, you can't trace everything and every question and every tension to, to Gimmel Tammuz, right? There was other points as well.

59:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:04 Speaker 2 To me, to me, so much of today's discussion is, is less-- It's not only about before or after Gimmel Tammuz, it's also before or after the arum. It's, it, to me, it's just a fascinating thing. I mean, like, c- is a Lubavitcher part of an arum? Is that what makes you a Lubavitcher? Or is a Lubavitcher, like you described, more an individual who, you know, earns it for, for himself or herself? And the reason I bring it up again is because how do you, how, how does one-- You mentioned you have to start acqui-- That, that this generation has no choice but to acquire it for themselves. How do you do that without basically moving on from that arc building towards the arum? Because that's something that a lot of people kind of bring up, where like on one hand, I want to live in the present. I want to make it my own. But if that comes at the cost of co-- let's say moving on from the, like moving on from this dirshvia arum, I feel that might be the wrong thing, or I feel like, you know, at this point... You see what I'm saying?

1:00:15 Speaker 1 I think. I mean, uh, for me, if, if I'm understanding correctly, at least, a, a, a long learning curve, um, how to-- And you say Gimmel Tammuz, Gimmel Tammuz changed everything. Yeah, but not right away. It took a, it took f- for me a long time to, um, even, you know, confront what happened, let alone process what happened and, and, and, uh, and the implications of that in so many different areas. Um, and every, you know, different people dealt with it differently.

1:00:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:59 Speaker 1 Some still, you know, nothing happens. It goes without saying. It's just, you know. Um, so I think that one of-- And, and we were not at all, you know, couldn't have been really prepared-

1:01:14 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:14 Speaker 1 ... trained for, for educating a new generation in the, uh, quote, "post-Gimmel Tammuz world."

1:01:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:01:24 Speaker 1 The natural default position of all parenting is you parent the way you were brought up, uh, or you, or you parent, or you raise, or you try to exert influence coming from, coming from the place that most influenced you, you know, and, and in the same way. So, um, it took me a f- it took me a while to realize that, um, while I could, you know, share a lot about what I experienced and so on and so forth, and for me, it's deeply personal, um, for someone else, it's like, "Okay, these are your nostalgic memories, but th- this is, this is, it's not my reality."

1:02:05 Speaker 2 You realized that right away?

1:02:06 Speaker 1 No. It took me a while to realize that In a way of trying to, um, impose or force a reality and, and, and, uh, a level of certain type of chassidus, um, that doesn't necessarily talk to, to the next generation, and as time progresses, even more so. Like, so for example, and I, I spoke about this to a group of educators, you know. It's one thing for the counselors of Camp Gan Yisroel, Tuvsin, uh, you know, not in the nuns writing songs like, you know, Where Is The Hand, throughout all these gagrim, you know.

1:02:49 Speaker 2 With Dylan, yeah.

1:02:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay, 'cause they sewed it up, right?

1:02:53 Speaker 2 It was real.

1:02:53 Speaker 1 It's natural.

1:02:54 Speaker 2 It was real.

1:02:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:55 Speaker 2 It was very real, yeah.

1:02:56 Speaker 1 Can you really expect a kid who's born after Kimltremos to... And I think in a way, it sometimes sets up, sets maybe someone up for failure, or like, "I'm not, I'm not feeling it this way, so I don't, I don't match up. Maybe chassidus is not for me, and, you know, I missed the boat."

1:03:14 Speaker 2 Yep.

1:03:15 Speaker 1 So I, I, I-

1:03:16 Speaker 2 I can speak for experience, by the way.

1:03:18 Speaker 1 Okay. So I, I, I am... I think that, uh, for me, so for me, this is a learning curve. Your uncle, your... No, your Zayde, actually, uh, Avramo, once spoke, one of the first Kimltremos, you know, after Kimltremos, for various, I think it was there. He spoke about the deida iyah and the deida shmia. And, uh, he said, "Yeah, you know, those of us who saw what we saw were the deida iyah, and we certainly have a responsibility to share what we saw. And, uh, but this is the deida shmia, you know, and it's a, it's a new generation." And the truth is that he was comparing it to the deida that saw Maut and Teydah to the deida that actually marched in '37, the deida geulah with Yeshua. It was a whole new generation. They were not actually at Maut and Teydah.

1:04:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:12 Speaker 1 It was a whole new generation. It's the deida shmia. So now, I, I can't remember exactly. So I think it was two points. One, that yes, you do have an obligation, but you also have to appreciate this is a deida shmia. It's a different, it's a different generation, and they're actually gonna be the ones who are going to cross the threshold into geulah. So not to in any way look down at the deida shmia, and they shouldn't feel like-

1:04:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:04:37 Speaker 1 ... "Man, what you missed. What you missed." You know what I mean? That's just not, uh, obviously an inspiring way to live, to live like, "I missed the glory years, you know. I missed..." So it was very challenging for someone who, mm, was in the quote-unquote glory years to not-

1:04:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:55 Speaker 1 ... um, convey that si- that sort of, uh, sentiment. So it took a... For me, it was just a learning curve to learn to appreciate, um, a different, a different generation. The chassidus is different, and, uh, and to appreciate it coming from a different, coming from a different, uh, vantage point, from a different standpoint, different experience.

1:05:16 Speaker 2 Hmm. Amazing. Yeah, it, it, it kind of brings me back to something earlier you said about that conversation you had with your friend in Australia about comparing how kafas of seven seventy to kafas in Australia. And in so many ways, that is such a symbolic conversation of conversations that happen today, right? Of, you know, like, there's this tension of, like, can you have... Like you, for example, you open up a Dehare magazine, for example, and I'm not, I'm not trying to criticize them. I think they do a lot of good work. But, like, everything is about the past, right? And so... And, and maybe they'll say that's what they're intending to be. Like, that's the role that they're serving. But, like, does anybody today talk about Rosh Hashanah of Pe'alef, what it meant to them? Like, "This is what happened for me on Rosh Hashanah Pe'alef."

1:06:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:06:14 Speaker 2 Right? And if they, if they do bring it up, you know, whether it's to someone who, like, like yourself, who was there at a re-- you know, at one of the Rav's tekiyahs, or whether they're speaking to someone who's very, you know, into the yemanim of back in the day, will that other person give him space or her space to, to, you know, have an experience, you know, in Pe'alef of two thousand twenty-one or two thousand twenty-four, right? And I think that tension is, is very much alive. But I'm not saying that there's no value in it. I think, I think there's immense value in it because a present and a future that, that discards the past is not, is not worth, is not worth much.

1:06:56 Speaker 1 Not part of it.

1:06:57 Speaker 2 Right? And that's in general, and particular, it would be, it would be the same. Uh, what I'm saying is, is, is there room for... Like, I think the question is, is there, is there, is there room, is there space to, to celebrate the present as well? Or, or, you know-

1:07:14 Speaker 1 Well, look

1:07:14 Speaker 2 ... that's, that, that-

1:07:15 Speaker 1 I don't know about Dehare, but if you read, you know, if you also subscribe to Kvach Habat-

1:07:18 Speaker 2 No, I don't read Dehare. I'm just saying-

1:07:19 Speaker 1 No, I'm saying if you subscribe to Kvach Habat, they, they, they have yemanim about Tishrei this year and what, what that experience, you know, was like.

1:07:26 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

1:07:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Every year since Kimltomos. Full on yemanim about-

1:07:31 Speaker 2 Yemanim where?

1:07:32 Speaker 1 In Kvach Habat.

1:07:33 Speaker 2 Like of what? Like what happened where? In two thousand and-

1:07:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, seven seventy, Rosh Hashanah, what Rabbin Zukor is supposed to tell you, descriptions and, um, you know. I'm not talking about crazy-

1:07:43 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:43 Speaker 1 ... you know, stuff.

1:07:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:44 Speaker 1 Just... Yeah, a hundred percent.

1:07:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:07:46 Speaker 1 I mean, uh, you know, I look at it and I... You know, it's, uh, mixed feelings about, okay, describing Vav Tishrei. Vav Tishrei, there was a fabregen, you know, of Shlomo Zarchi and then, and a panel that talk about the greatness of Vav Tishrei, you know. And like, it's like-

1:08:02 Speaker 2 See, see, that's a problem. Uh, and, uh, yeah, a present that includes it-

1:08:05 Speaker 1 But that's, but that's the present, but that's Vav, that's Vav Tishrei, whatever, Pe'alef, okay.

1:08:09 Speaker 2 But a rec- a record of the present that only remembers the past is going to be a problem That, that's, that's what I'm touching at. Now, do I have a better solution? I don't, I don't know that I have a better solution. I, I, I just think that that is ultimately, that's ultimately the question. Ultimately, the question is: can, can it... The Babich was building so much, as you've described today, was building more and more towards this kind of crescendo of, of a very powerful arum. Like, it sucked everybody in, right? It's not, it's not nothing new that I've... It's not... I didn't hear anything new in that sense today, but I heard, like, it was an- ... another corroborating account of it, and it was very compelling how you described it. And, and so everybody got sucked into an arum. And so how do you, how do you become an individual? How do you reclaim or find your individuality without feeling that you're discarding that big thing that was part of being Lubavitcher, which was being part of that arum?

1:09:12 Speaker 1 So, yeah.

1:09:12 Speaker 2 You see, like, like if a person, if a person, if a person's... Like, even I remember, I, I remember, like, Rosh Hashanah, for example. Like, because some kind... To be fair, I think, I think, you know, if one's objective, you go to some seventy or the oil, and at least when I was there, there were plenty and pl-- the majority of people were, were taking it very, very seriously, davening seriously, tehilim, and all these things. But, you know, at, at the oil, and I, I don't wanna name anybody, but there was also a strain of... And I think also in some seventy there's a parallel, a strain of kind of like of, of, of, of, of, of, of this, th-this cynicism or this tension of like, "What's this Rosh Hashanah about? There's no takiyyas, there's no, there's no nothing. Like, what are we even doing here?"

1:10:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:10:02 Speaker 2 And, you know, I mean, I guess now that I'm asking the question and thinking out loud, I, I don't think they're the majority, so maybe I've already answered the question. I think, I think ultimately people will live in the present. How- whatever, whatever you do, whatever you're gonna try, they're going to live their life.

1:10:18 Speaker 1 So to that point, first of all, I, I, I think in terms of arum today, I think that probably the biggest arum in Lubavitch today is shlichas.

1:10:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:27 Speaker 1 Um, the kinas.

1:10:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:29 Speaker 1 You know, is probably the biggest arum, you know, that you wanna be, you know, at least if you wanna be a part of that. But, uh, you know, how... You, you asked this question, "Well, how do you reclaim your individuality?" I think that, um, it's happening organically, and I think that it's, I think it's part of the geulah process. Geulah. And geulah means fully manifested. And geulah means... You know, we don't have time to get into a whole philosophical dis-phi-philosophical discussion about bitul, but, and what that really means, and I think it's gotten a bad rap 'cause I don't think bitul means the negation of self. I think bitul means seeing yourself in a larger context.

1:11:08 Speaker 2 Your, your fa- your father-in-law took care of that, the concept.

1:11:10 Speaker 1 He did. Spoke about bitul. Um, we'll see if we agree. There, there, there's one, one, one minor that actually sticks out, and where the Rebbe actually says there's a

1:15:15 Speaker 2 you can be now.

1:15:17 Speaker 1 On that note, thank you very much. It's a wonderful conversation. Thank you for your time.

1:15:22 Speaker 2 Okay, thank you.

1:15:23 Speaker 1 And, uh, much hatslachah.

1:15:25 Speaker 2 Amen.

1:15:26 Speaker 1 Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Soran and Havahar, and is used with their permission.