Ep. 27 // "The Paradox of Empowerment" w/ Rabbi Simon Jacobson

00:00 Speaker 1 Some people say, "I just wanna be safe, uh, whatever the Rebbe tells me to do."

00:03 Speaker 2 Right.

00:04 Speaker 1 And I'm not on my own. On the other hand, Shliach, the Rebbe says so many times, cannot be a child, cannot be a servant. It has to be an independent individual.

00:13 Speaker 2 Right.

00:15 Speaker 1 At his own volition-

00:16 Speaker 2 Right

00:16 Speaker 1 ... not forced-

00:18 Speaker 2 Right

00:18 Speaker 1 ... chose to commit, and then he becomes

00:21 Speaker 2 Right

00:24 Speaker 1 So is that not a paradox? Of course it is.

00:30 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. So, uh, I am here with Rabbi Simon Jacobson. This has been a long time in the making. Um, I've had the, I've had the honor and, uh, joy of, uh, interviewing you already a few times for other video projects, and, um, each time we speak about a different topic, and that gives me a lot to come back with for this podcast. So, uh, we figured that before I came again and interviewed, in-interviewed you for another film with even more questions, we'd, we'd get this podcast out of the way. So thank you very much for, for the time, and I'm very much looking forward to this.

01:26 Speaker 1 My pleasure. And thank you for, uh, I commend you for making this happen. Um-

01:32 Speaker 2 Thank you

01:32 Speaker 1 ... frank talk.

01:34 Speaker 2 Frank talk.

01:34 Speaker 1 Candid talk, and, uh, thank you for having me.

01:38 Speaker 2 Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure. So, uh, I, I didn't introduce you. I, I don't, I don't think that most people listening here, uh, need an introduction, uh, about you, but, uh, of course, for, for whoever doesn't know who you are, you're, you're an author, you're a, uh, podcaster, a YouTuber. Um, but-- And I'm sure you'll fill in some of the blanks about your earlier journey as we go along this conversation. But, um, you were, you were also for many years a m- a

02:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

02:12 Speaker 2 You, you, uh, both re-remembered and transcribed and edited, uh, many of the Rebbe's sichas. And, uh, I'd like to, I'd like to begin, I'd like to begin at, at, at that, at that point in your career, let's say, or life story. Um, but it was a specific point that came up in one of our earlier interviews that I found fascinating, and I wanted to make sure we didn't miss it this time. And that was you were talking about how with the advent of technology and, uh, fax machines, how that changed the, both the dissemination of the sichas around the world, as well as the actual texture of the farbrengens. So maybe, maybe give a short or however long you'd like to talk about what that role was to give us a background of where, where you were and what your role was in, in terms of, uh, sharing the sichas with the world.

03:14 Speaker 1 Well, thank you for asking. It's a great question. It's one of some of the more, uh, let's call best-kept secrets.

03:20 Speaker 2 What's that?

03:21 Speaker 1 The whole process of technology-

03:23 Speaker 2 Right

03:23 Speaker 1 ... and how it played a role in the, we'll call it, evolution and development of the Rebbe's farbrengens.

03:29 Speaker 2 Right.

03:29 Speaker 1 I think it's fascinating also to begin maybe, uh, go back pre-me, you know, prehistoric.

03:36 Speaker 2 Sure.

03:37 Speaker 1 It's interesting that, I mean, obviously we know that, uh, the Alter Rebbe and the previous Rebbes, there was no technology as we know it.

03:46 Speaker 2 Right.

03:47 Speaker 1 You know, microphones, uh, recorders, uh, everything was... Even though I think Socrates is the one that said as soon as they began to write tablets-

03:56 Speaker 2 Right

03:56 Speaker 1 ... not tablets of today, tablets en-engraved tablets, he said it was the downfall of civilization 'cause people would stop using their minds. They would be writing it down.

04:06 Speaker 2 Well, that was a whole de-- that was a whole debate about Torah ShebeKsav and Torah SheBa'al Peh, right?

04:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:11 Speaker 2 Right.

04:12 Speaker 1 And, uh, I think when the, when the, when the Kin-Kindle came out, as Jeff Bezos said, that technology is anything that was invented after you were born. You know? So-

04:22 Speaker 2 Yeah

04:22 Speaker 1 ... everything's relative. Printing press. So early on the Rebbe's leadership, even though there was technology, um, the Rebbe actually insisted that the chozim, the people who remembered the farbrengens, even the recorded ones, would not use record- the recorders and the recordings. They had to do it from their memory.

04:42 Speaker 2 Really?

04:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. And officially, you're not even allowed to record a farbrengen. Yeah, you can check that out. Fascinating. The Rebbe-- So there was a recording made, but no one knew about it. Rav Yael Kahn, uh, original chozer of the Rebbe's, the, the, meaning original from the beginning, told me, "We didn't even know the recordings till later," because officially there was, the Rebbe did not want anything recorded.

05:06 Speaker 2 What's the reason?

05:08 Speaker 1 My understanding, it was like, you know, as pure as it gets. The Rebbe was, like, maybe keeping the, the real Torah SheBa'al Peh tradition of his predecessors, and he wanted to, it, it, I guess he didn't want machines in the way, uh, lack of a better way. You know, they talk about AI today. Just didn't want robots and machines, even, uh, th- even, uh, recorders. And it was a big thing where when there was a recording made, the Rebbe would be upset that people recorded. I mean, we have the thing with, with, uh, with cameras, that the Rebbe and others would cover their face, didn't wanna be photographed, and the Rebbe made a limit of how many photographs should be made, uh, under the chuppahs that he officiated. Um, I mean, he never gave the reason. My feeling was always he just want... Listen, you're listening to the farbrengen. Why are we using machines? And so Moshe Rabbeinu didn't have it at Sinai. That was my sense of it, but it changed obviously.

06:04 Speaker 2 Right.

06:04 Speaker 1 Um, it changed for the better. And then began when the Rebbe allowed the chozim to listen to a recording if they had a question-

06:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

06:13 Speaker 1 ... to check.

06:14 Speaker 2 I see.

06:14 Speaker 1 You know, so for example, a famous farbrengen Purim 19, um, '58, Purim Taf Shin Chai as it's known.

06:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:21 Speaker 1 So there was a recording, but Aviel told me he wrote the whole thing without the recording. He did it from memory-

06:28 Speaker 2 Right

06:28 Speaker 1 ... with the chozim. But then later they checked in the recording. There was obviously stuff found because, you know, a memory of a mind is not always gonna be as perfect. But that, that's what the Rebbe's, uh, he did. It could also be that the Rebbe was farbrengen from his heart and didn't want everything recorded.

06:45 Speaker 2 Right.

06:45 Speaker 1 You know, something like off the record, if you wish.

06:47 Speaker 2 Right.

06:47 Speaker 1 Especially a Purim farbrengen. Um-

06:50 Speaker 2 Taf Shin Chai was a farbrengen where the Rebbe asked them to chazer it back to them, right?

06:54 Speaker 1 That's right. That's right. And they-- And why did he ask to chazer? Why didn't he just ask for the recording?

06:58 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

06:59 Speaker 1 He didn't. And we have the recording. Today the, the recording exists.

07:03 Speaker 2 Right.

07:04 Speaker 1 Uh, a- again, I think it's a combination of not using machines, so to speak. In a way like essentially the purest, the, the, the pure, the puritism, if you wish, of Shabbos and Yontif. You know, there's something about-

07:16 Speaker 2 Right

07:16 Speaker 1 ... you just sing a song without instruments, without recordings, and it just, you know, friend speaking to friend, eye to eye. Maybe it was the antidote that was, that, uh, would preempt, uh, the whole, the whole, you could say, epidemic of technology today that's replacing humans. It was the ultimate human experience without any machines. I mean, I'm, I'm speculating, obviously.

07:38 Speaker 2 But ultimately, the Rebbe allowed for many, many photographs, many videos. I mean, it would sound ironic to the casual listener to hear that the Rebbe was opposed to being recorded because I don't know if there's ever any, uh, certainly not Lubavitch Rebbe, but any gadol of any kind today that was recorded as much as the Rebbe. And then-

07:57 Speaker 1 Exactly. And everyone says Chabad is the first to use technology.

08:00 Speaker 2 Right.

08:00 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe was genius in using technology to spread Torah.

08:04 Speaker 2 Right.

08:04 Speaker 1 That's why I'm saying to you that's an interesting paradox.

08:07 Speaker 2 So why did he change?

08:09 Speaker 1 Well, uh, uh, listen, if-- I'm-- I, I just wanna say for the record, I don't, not hear from the Rebbe an explanation. Whatever we're saying here is our own speculation. My thinking is a combination. Uh, that something, something I always noticed, that the Rebbe was a, a walking paradox. On one hand, uh, uh, probably the most public Jewish figure simply because of the recordings and the, and the publicity and just everybody knowing what the Rebbe was saying, but also extremely private.

08:38 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:39 Speaker 1 You know, ask how many people really knew about his real inner personality, so to speak. You knew his personality as what he shared with. What was he like with his rebbetzin? What was he like in his privacy? So I, uh, I think rare to find someone so public and so private. So maybe it plays itself out also in how Torah is taught. You know, on one hand, there was this very intimate, you know, don't record, and on the other hand, when it was necessary and, and the, and the technology was simply going to help the cause. I think that's the ans- ultimately the answer. It wasn't because we're trying to make things easy. The fact is technology was allowed Chassidus and Torah to spread in ways that were unprecedented. The Rebbe initially did not agree that they teach Tanya on the radio when the idea came up in 1958 or '59. In 1960, '61, he did, and it was actually controversial in some of the Frum circles. "Radio? What do you mean? You change the channel, and you right away go to another station, you're hearing a, a priest speak-

09:43 Speaker 2 Right

09:43 Speaker 1 ... or things that are inappropriate and not modest, et cetera."

09:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:46 Speaker 1 So it was actually seen as, as, uh, controversial. Now why did-- So I always thought, why did the Rebbe not just agree immediately? I think, like many things, the, the convergence of the modern world and faith and Torah doesn't come that easily. There was, there was always a so-called tension, we'll call it, between spirit and matter.

10:07 Speaker 2 Right.

10:09 Speaker 1 For example, we know it says in Chassidus sta- quotes the Midrash that before Sinai there was a schism between matter and spirit. That which was above did not come down below.

10:22 Speaker 2 Right.

10:23 Speaker 1 So you see in history in general, even on a scientific level, takes time till matter and energy completely converge.

10:31 Speaker 2 Right.

10:31 Speaker 1 So I'm thinking maybe that's somewhat as Torah was entering the modern world, maybe that was part of the tension. So originally the Rebbe was more hesitant, I guess, to use these technologies. And, um, like the first maamar of the Rebbe, Basola Gani, was recorded, but no one knew about it until later.

10:51 Speaker 2 Right.

10:51 Speaker 1 So it was written from memory. But then once it becomes obvious that it's helping, technology is a direct support and amplifying the message in ways that unprecedented, then became like an obvious thing.

11:07 Speaker 2 Right.

11:07 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll share with you... I mean, I know it's a lot to talk about here.

11:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. No.

11:11 Speaker 1 I'll get back to where you asked me initially. In 1984, the Rebbe, who o- who oft- often would speak about technology, spoke about the study of Tanya on the radio, and he had-- And, um, he wrote, after he finished the talk, after Shabbos, he wrote to us a note, a whole page, handwritten with footnotes, to explain and respond to those that asked the question about how can you use technology which is being used for so many negative things for spreading Torah. And the Rebbe said and wrote, he wrote that God forbid to say that anything creates itself. Everything was created by God. Um, and it was created for the purpose of bringing honor to the divine.

12:09 Speaker 2 Right.

12:09 Speaker 1 For His honor. And, um- However, he gave us free will.

12:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:17 Speaker 1 So you can use it for the right thing, the purpose, or you could use it for destructive purposes. Taking g- gold, for example. The Midrash says go- gold was created for the building a sanctuary for God. However, gold can be used to build a golden calf.

12:35 Speaker 2 Right.

12:35 Speaker 1 You can-- Money can be used for good purposes, for negative purposes. And then he quotes, uh, the Mishnah that says, when someone asked one of the great sages, "Why didn't God destroy the sun and the moon if he doesn't wanna have idol worshipers?"

12:48 Speaker 2 Right.

12:49 Speaker 1 You know, sun worshipers, moon. So he says, "Is God going to destroy the universe, his universe, because of a few fools?"

12:56 Speaker 2 Right.

12:57 Speaker 1 So in other words, we have the right to choose to be fools. And then the Rebbe concludes, "So this is the case for everything in creation, from gold to stones. How much more so?" He calls it a «» , an awesome force that God implanted, embedded into existence. This is the force of technology.

13:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

13:15 Speaker 1 The atom, electricity. That was there from the beginning of time.

13:20 Speaker 2 Right.

13:20 Speaker 1 And when finally human beings discovered it, you have to say it was also created by God for the, for good purposes. The fact that some use it for negative shouldn't take away the fact that we should use it for the positive.

13:32 Speaker 2 Right.

13:32 Speaker 1 The Rebbe wrote it, and then he wrote, "Add that in the beginning, in a fitting place."

13:37 Speaker 2 This was a Shabbos V'Bairin?

13:38 Speaker 1 Shabbos V'Bairin Mishpatim, 5734 would be 1984. If you wish, I can give you the copy of the actual manuscript. You can post it.

13:47 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

13:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, that'd be fascinating.

13:49 Speaker 1 Beautiful ma- beautifully written.

13:52 Speaker 2 What, what, what's up is that Shabbos? There was something going on?

13:55 Speaker 1 I think during that time there were some people, again, the, the, there was always the murmurings from certain very, we'll call it reactionary forces-

14:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:03 Speaker 1 ...that felt technology is, is, is a klippah. It's, it's, but it's, it's being u- you know, 'cause technology, frankly-

14:10 Speaker 2 It's scary

14:11 Speaker 1 ...is used, right, is mostly used for not positive purposes.

14:14 Speaker 2 Right.

14:14 Speaker 1 Not modest. Uh, e- even worse than that. I mean, without mentioning it, but you know, the number one sites online are not exactly, uh, we'll call it, uh, holiness.

14:24 Speaker 2 No.

14:25 Speaker 1 So, and, and I think the Rebbe just wanted it for the record establish the case. But then you go back, so why didn't he allow recordings early on?

14:33 Speaker 2 That's what I wanted to ask you about because, because I don't think anybody listening will be surprised to hear about the Rebbe embracing technology, because that's the dominant narrative. The dominant narrative, in many ways because Rebbe was one of the first to embrace it, is Rebbe was very pro-technology or very, very, um, very, I don't know if pro-technology, but, but, but, but very embracing of technology to utilize it for the, for the right things and so on. But what s- what surprises me is the hesitation, right? And in many ways, that complicates the narrative a little bit. In, in many ways, in many ways, it complicates the narrative about, about tech- maybe, maybe the Rebbe was more hesitant about technology than we are given to, to believe and to understand. I think it also complicates the narrative of, you know, there, there's, there... And, and this is, this, this brings us back in many ways to the whole story of the Kotizichas where there were many instances where, where the Rebbe was not going to do something, and then with time, the Rebbe was eventually not pressured to do something, but what would be the word? Encouraged, solicited. Like, the Rebbe eventually gave in to something. In many ways, there was like a wait for people to demonstrate it to me. I think that also complicates the, the, the, the narrative a little bit, right? Instead of it being everything, you know, th- the Rebbe said from the get-go to do it in a certain

15:59 Speaker 2 way, th- people suggested things. The Rebbe's allowed... R- no, I mean, it complicates-

16:04 Speaker 1 I, I, I agree, but I, I, I think I can, uh, share a thought that will uncomplicate it.

16:11 Speaker 2 Okay.

16:12 Speaker 1 I, I find from my work a certain recurrent theme. You know, when you see it's recurrent, you know it's fundamental.

16:20 Speaker 2 Right.

16:20 Speaker 1 From day one, literally 1951 when the Rebbe assumed leadership, he made it very clear in that famous announcement he made-

16:29 Speaker 2 Right

16:29 Speaker 1 ...right after he said the discourse, he said, "«»"

16:34 Speaker 2 Right.

16:34 Speaker 1 In, in English that means, "Don't deceive yourself into thinking that now you appointed me, I'm gonna do the job for you."

16:40 Speaker 2 Right.

16:41 Speaker 1 I'll meet you halfway, basically. I don't decline from helping. I think it's critical, and I think it really also reflects the way God works with the world. God could have done everything for us.

16:52 Speaker 2 Right.

16:53 Speaker 1 I will meet you halfway. You are partners with me.

16:56 Speaker 2 Right.

16:56 Speaker 1 And I think it wasn't a reluctance of the Rebbe to embrace. He wanted to be owned.

17:01 Speaker 2 Grassroots.

17:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Owned, and, and then it's really internalized.

17:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

17:05 Speaker 1 Had the Rebbe come out right away with many of-- Why didn't he start his campaigns 1950, '51?

17:11 Speaker 2 Right.

17:12 Speaker 1 He waited till 1970s. I think it was very much part, "Are you ready? Can we, you know, can we take a ta- can we be bold enough to take on the new frontiers?"

17:22 Speaker 2 Right.

17:23 Speaker 1 Uh, I'll give you an example. Rabbi Lazar from, uh, Italy.

17:26 Speaker 2 Right.

17:27 Speaker 1 He, he shares that in 1954 or '55, maybe '55, him and «» were by the Rebbe in Yechidus. I'm telling this story also 'cause you'll... It's, it's personal for you.

17:39 Speaker 2 Okay.

17:39 Speaker 1 You'll see in a moment why.

17:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I, I already, I already sensed it.

17:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. So and they sp- they said that there's a new idea of summer camps.

17:47 Speaker 2 Right.

17:48 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said, "What is that?" So they explained, not just day camp. Overnight for nine weeks, the children go away from home, and the... And it was not done before, you know?

17:59 Speaker 2 No.

17:59 Speaker 1 In the, in the Frum world, it didn't exist.

18:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:02 Speaker 1 Um, and the Rebbe said so to Rebbe Lazar, "Sh- tell me what... Can you make a case for it?" And he like, as soon as he heard the Rebbe say that, he thought, "Oh, the Rebbe is asking questions." You know, by «» is treif.

18:14 Speaker 2 Right.

18:14 Speaker 1 It means the Rebbe doesn't want it.

18:16 Speaker 2 Right.

18:17 Speaker 1 So, and the Rebbe's waiting for him, and «» says to him- The Rebbe wants you to explain why make summer camp. He, like, got frightened. He thought it was the Rebbe, like... But the Rebbe want-- And so he said the reason, the reason is 24/7 influence, you know, the environment, all the advantages. And then you look now, the Rebbe summer camp, you think the Rebbe initiated it, and it was his own idea-

18:40 Speaker 2 Right

18:40 Speaker 1 ... and, like, embraced it. As you know, your grandfather, Rabbi Shemtov, um, revolutionized it. Camp Israel became a major force, and the Rebbe went to visit the camps. So, so how do you explain that? I think it came down to the, the Rebbe wanted things to always be combination. You know, "I'll, I'll suggest something, but I want you to suggest. I want-- And then I want you to..." It's like, I think, a good delegator.

19:04 Speaker 2 Right.

19:05 Speaker 1 You hire someone, "I'm not just gonna teach you what to think. I wanna teach you how to think."

19:09 Speaker 2 Right.

19:10 Speaker 1 And I really believe that's a big part of it. It wasn't this-

19:13 Speaker 2 That makes sense.

19:13 Speaker 1 It wasn't like, oh, the Rebbe became more, uh, God forbid, more modern-

19:18 Speaker 2 Right

19:18 Speaker 1 ... and his way to... The Rebbe was not a young man in 1951.

19:21 Speaker 2 Right.

19:21 Speaker 1 It's not like suddenly he came to realize technology has a value. He, he-- The Rebbe was a, a, a scientist, of course.

19:28 Speaker 2 Right.

19:28 Speaker 1 He studied science.

19:29 Speaker 2 Right.

19:29 Speaker 1 I think it comes down... Like I said, there was always a tension about when do you bring God into, you know, into existence, and how do you do it in a way that's integrated? Look, classic example. This is maybe the most m-maybe the most controversial of all. You'll never find the Rebbe disagree with any of the Rebbes.

19:49 Speaker 2 Right.

19:49 Speaker 1 'Cause they're all one, obviously. Even the word disagree I shouldn't have used, but you don't find the Rebbe having a different approach.

19:57 Speaker 2 Right.

19:57 Speaker 1 It's one, one approach. And yet, the Alter Rebbe was opposed to Napoleon in the Franco-Russia War 1812, and to the point that he supported Alexander, the king, tsar.

20:10 Speaker 2 Right.

20:10 Speaker 1 Even though it would've been bad and difficult for the Jews physically, 'cause Napoleon would've been physically good, but spiritually-

20:17 Speaker 2 Disastrous

20:18 Speaker 1 ... God-godless, essentially.

20:19 Speaker 2 Disastrous, yeah.

20:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. In 1992, um, well, it's 19- end of '91, I should say, 12 Sh'van, in this, in the, in Vayeshev. Uh, around the end of '91, the Rebbe speaks a talk, speaks a sicha, and says, "That was then, seven generations ago. But now we're ready to go into France and into the Western world and transform it."

20:44 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:45 Speaker 1 Clearly. Now, I don't see that at all. It's not like someone said to me, "Oh, you know what? If the Rebbe lived in the time of the Alter Rebbe, he would've supported Napoleon." No, we weren't ready for Napoleon yet.

20:54 Speaker 2 Right.

20:55 Speaker 1 We were too-

20:56 Speaker 2 Right

20:56 Speaker 1 ... It's like when the Rebbe-

20:57 Speaker 2 Wait, 200 years have a, have, have happened in between.

20:59 Speaker 1 Right. And I think this is important. Torah does not change, but the world changes.

21:03 Speaker 2 Right.

21:03 Speaker 1 And when the world is more ready, like let's say the concept of Sheva Mitzvot Bnei Noach.

21:07 Speaker 2 Right.

21:08 Speaker 1 Try to do that 500 years ago, it was dangerous.

21:11 Speaker 2 Right.

21:12 Speaker 1 You're, you're gonna talk to the Nazis about morality, you know? Um, but then the world gets more refined, and that's what the Rebbe was saying, quoting Yaakov, actually.

21:22 Speaker 2 Right.

21:22 Speaker 1 Yaakov Avinu telling Eisav, "We're not ready yet. You know, the children are young. The sheep are tender." Now, we've refined the world more, and 200 years have made a difference. A country like United States became a, a haven for Jew- for religion, for Jews. So there are changes, and I think that's part of the process. In other words, embracing technology right at the outset because it's there, you have to be careful also, because if you don't yet have-- you're not mature enough-

21:51 Speaker 2 Hmm

21:51 Speaker 1 ... you may not know how to integrate it properly. I'm, I'm giving you my theories on it, but, uh-

21:55 Speaker 2 No, I mean, it, it, it, it, it resonates very much. I mean, it, uh, you know, it also... I, I, I could also su-suggest support, supporting anecdotes. I mean, you brought up my grandfather before. I mean, my grandfather, together with others, was, you know, putting up the menorahs in very public places, and I don't think the Rebbe, um, suggested that idea. Uh, you know, it was-- They, they suggested to the Rebbe, and, and I think my grandfather told me, I don't wanna speak on his behalf, but I'm pretty sure he told me that the Rebbe never indicated one way or another. Just the fact that the Rebbe didn't negate it was enough to understand that, you know. And, and there were, there were other such stories of, of, of, of, you know, things that came, like you said, from, from the grassroots or, or came organically from-

22:44 Speaker 1 Mi-mitzvah tanks.

22:45 Speaker 2 Right.

22:45 Speaker 1 People think again. Mitzvah tank. The Rebbe would-- I thought what he would do, and I saw this so many times, he would plant a seed.

22:52 Speaker 2 Right.

22:53 Speaker 1 And then he'd see how people... And then sometimes he would even say, "I spoke about it a few years ago, and no one realized that I had that in mind." He probably said in a public talk that, that Hanukkah is pesach sheni-

23:05 Speaker 2 Right, right

23:05 Speaker 1 ... publicize it, and then a public menorah.

23:09 Speaker 2 Right.

23:09 Speaker 1 I'll give you another example I heard from your grandfather directly. You know, until 1971, President Nixon, the Rebbe, when he was asked whether he would want greetings for his birthday-

23:21 Speaker 2 Right

23:21 Speaker 1 ... from the presidents, the Rebbe said no.

23:23 Speaker 2 Right.

23:24 Speaker 1 Just, just keep a, keep them ar-arm's length. He didn't want... And then the Rebbe agreed. And then once the Rebbe agreed, there's Education Today, Education Day-

23:34 Speaker 2 Right

23:34 Speaker 1 ... and other things, and it would seem to make so much sense. The government is acknowledging-

23:38 Speaker 2 Right

23:38 Speaker 1 ... Chassidis, the Rebbe, the morality. I think it all goes in the same category. First of all, is the world ready yet? And he wants also that partnership.

23:49 Speaker 2 Right.

23:49 Speaker 1 I've seen many notes, answers from the Rebbe where they say the Rebbe, they want, the Rebbe should send shluchim to France. Send shluchim. So the Rebbe said, "Ken hug," like in other words, the custom is you have to ask from your end and suggest, and then I can respond. In other words, he did not want to just come and impose, "I'm sending."

24:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:08 Speaker 1 And I think it was ver-a very wise approach because it makes you look at the whole concept of shlichus.

24:14 Speaker 2 Right.

24:15 Speaker 1 You have to s-- The Rebbe wanted it to be lasting and sustainable. He didn't want it you doing it 'cause I'm ordering you to do it.

24:21 Speaker 2 Right.

24:21 Speaker 1 I once, once had a farbrengen, I remember, Rabbi Yisroel Jacobson, no relation-

24:27 Speaker 2 Right

24:27 Speaker 1 ... with farbrengen, and he said something very nice. He said, "By Chassidim they said the Rebbe Maharash would order. He'd order a Chassidim to do something. The Rebbe Rashab would, um, he would, he would, he would order. The Rebbe Rashab would, would, um, would, would, uh, suggest."

24:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

24:49 Speaker 1 "The Frierdiker Rebbe would ask." Okay? And then he says, "And our Rebbe, he calls you in and consults, so to speak."

24:58 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:58 Speaker 1 "He's not even asking you to do it."

25:00 Speaker 2 Wow.

25:00 Speaker 1 "He's consulting with you. And the Rebbe's consultation is more authoritative than the Rebbe Maharash's command."

25:06 Speaker 2 Wow.

25:07 Speaker 1 So I, I found that to be-

25:09 Speaker 2 How about-

25:09 Speaker 1 ... very-

25:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:10 Speaker 1 ... insightful.

25:10 Speaker 2 I-- It's fascinating. It's fascinating 'cause, 'cause what, what you've been talking about this whole time has made me think about, um, uh, I, I was, I was reading, um, recently the, the book they put out on the Razah. And so that, besides learning about the Razah, I also learned more about that time in Lubavitch where the Rebbeshav was, w- you know, was, was kind of the Rebbe but not officially, you know, 10 years of this. And, and you see this, you know, at least since, at least since the Rebbeshav, possibly from the Rebbe Maharash already, this kind of tension of, you know, the Chassidim like insist that there must be a Rebbe, right? And the, the Rebbe, like without the Rebbe, there's Chabad Lubavitch, right? Like there's no Lubavitch without a Rebbe. And if, and indeed, in the 10 years that Rebbeshav was not fully embracing of his role, many Chassidim went to Copost. And it, you know, if, if the, if Lubavitch doesn't have a Rebbe, then, then it's over. So the Chassidim insisted there must be a Rebbe, but already from then, the Rebbeim were, were, were, were pushing back and saying, "What do you mean? Like you, you have to carry some load too." Like, like Lubavitch will, will, will go on without w- like without me assuming the, the, the, you know, the title of a Rebbe. Like, I mean, yes, on one hand, these are not things that I understand, and they, they, they are in higher realms and so

26:36 Speaker 2 on, and I, I accept that. But there's also, there's also a record of what happened, and there are things that were said by, by Rebbeim that followed them about it. There's not... Yeah, I think we have to be able to, to, to, to talk about these kind of things and what happened, at the very least what happened, if not why they happened.

26:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. I-

26:53 Speaker 2 So there's for sure this kind of... And then you, then you brought up that the Rebbe's first statement after accept- you know, saying the Meyer and, and kind of filling up the role and, and, and, and, and opening up into the role of, of, of, of a Rebbe, the first thing he says is, "I'm not going to carry the load by myself. I'm not, I'm not gonna do this all by myself." And that, you know, there's, there's, there's a f- there's a fascinating and like in many ways the most important tension there where, where, where Chassidim are insisting that, that, that like that, that there has to be a Rebbe for there to be Lubavitch, and the Rebbe's saying that that's not the whole story. Like, right? There's something there.

27:34 Speaker 1 Absolutely. I mean, I, I can go on with, you know- You can explain so many things like why if the Rebbe knew he's gonna accept leadership, why did he wait a year?

27:42 Speaker 2 Right.

27:42 Speaker 1 And he ne- needed the Chassidim-

27:44 Speaker 2 Right

27:44 Speaker 1 ... to, to push it. I think that's part of it.

27:47 Speaker 2 Right.

27:47 Speaker 1 Another thing, for example, why didn't the Rebbe write all his own discourses, all his talks?

27:52 Speaker 2 Right.

27:52 Speaker 1 And it was us, Chayezrim Manichim.

27:54 Speaker 2 Right.

27:55 Speaker 1 You know, the other Rebbeim did write.

27:57 Speaker 2 Right.

27:57 Speaker 1 I again, I can't say this authoritatively, but to me it all c- that's why I said it's recurring.

28:02 Speaker 2 Right.

28:03 Speaker 1 Wherever you look, you know, in, in science they say once you start finding so many-

28:07 Speaker 2 Patterns

28:07 Speaker 1 ... telltale signs and patterns, it becomes, one second, this is not a coincidence.

28:11 Speaker 2 Right.

28:11 Speaker 1 It's like a p-- And, and I'll tell you the truth, I mean, I, I, I will say even the words of the Rebbe on Cheshvan Nisan-

28:18 Speaker 2 Right

28:18 Speaker 1 ... "I did everything I can do," to me was very consistent with this approach. And not c- God forbid the Rebbe abrogates or his, his responsibilities. He's consistently in- insisting that we are part of the process. "I did everything I can. I've given you everything on a platter. I've given you the teachings, and now I want you to do the rest of it." Most people make a mistake. They think the Rebbe said, "You take over from me." That's not what the Rebbe was saying.

28:47 Speaker 2 Right.

28:47 Speaker 1 Just like the first talk that he gave, he wasn't saying... Like you, you put it correctly. He's saying, "We're partners."

28:53 Speaker 2 Right.

28:53 Speaker 1 "And now," it's like, you know, "I'll give you the resources. You have to present them." Just that very concept of schlichas. The Rebbe once said the Rebbe could've accomplished everything on his own. He didn't need anyone.

29:03 Speaker 2 Right.

29:04 Speaker 1 But he wanted to give the schlichas the merit. But I think it's even further than that. The Rebbe was not gonna travel to Australia and to France and to England and to every corner. Uh, you know, I like to always put it that we're the distributors. You know, the Rebbe's the producer.

29:18 Speaker 2 Right.

29:18 Speaker 1 And we distribute. But distribution is big. You know, they say a guy was once on a plane.

29:24 Speaker 2 Right.

29:24 Speaker 1 There was a lot of turbulence, and they turn to a Chabadnik and say to him, "You know, why don't you intervene, uh, and get the turbulence?" You know. So he says, "I'm in sales, not in management." You know? So-

29:37 Speaker 2 Yeah

29:37 Speaker 1 ... so we're in sales. You know, we're ""We're here to spread. We don't need to create new things." But, but the truth is, we mentioned before Torah Shebe'al Peh, why didn't... Uh, basically Moshe says to Hashem, "Why are you telling us to work it out? Just tell me what we should do-

29:54 Speaker 2 Right

29:54 Speaker 1 ... what we don't do." No, no, no. Doesn't work that way.

29:57 Speaker 2 No.

29:57 Speaker 1 "I'll give you the Torah, I'll give you the methodology, and I need you to argue about it."

30:03 Speaker 2 Right.

30:03 Speaker 1 A Shammai and Hillel, an argument, a counter. Between us, it just complicates matters if we-

30:09 Speaker 2 Right

30:09 Speaker 1 ... but we're not puppets. We're not robots. We're meant to integrate.

30:12 Speaker 2 Right.

30:13 Speaker 1 I think the delicate balance is-

30:15 Speaker 2 It would also, it would also make Torah dead in a way.

30:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:17 Speaker 2 'Cause it would be, there would be a one-off event, and then every day would literally be a day further away from that with nothing to, to, to create in this moment. Not right?

30:26 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And the delicate balance is where people get very touchy is, "So are you doing this on your own-

30:33 Speaker 2 Right

30:33 Speaker 1 ... or is this the Rebbe g- telling you to do?"

30:35 Speaker 2 Right.

30:36 Speaker 1 Some people say, "I just wanna be safe. Uh, whatever the Rebbe tells me to do."

30:39 Speaker 2 Right.

30:40 Speaker 1 "And I'm not on my own." On the other hand, you know, that's not what the Rebbe wants. Shliach, the Rebbe says so many times, cannot be a child, cannot be a servant. It has to be an independent individual.

30:53 Speaker 2 But halakhically you're talking about-

30:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah

30:55 Speaker 2 ... halakha, yeah.

30:56 Speaker 1 His own v- but the Rebbe quotes the Tashbich.

30:57 Speaker 2 Right.

30:58 Speaker 1 At his own volition-

30:59 Speaker 2 Right

31:00 Speaker 1 ... not forced-

31:01 Speaker 2 Right

31:01 Speaker 1 ... chose- To commit, and then he becomes more than anyone else.

31:07 Speaker 2 Right.

31:07 Speaker 1 So is that not a paradox? Of course it is.

31:10 Speaker 2 Right.

31:10 Speaker 1 But let's be honest, I mean, even in business management, when you train someone to become a leader of their own, meaning that's the greatest, uh, tribute to the first, to the teacher.

31:20 Speaker 2 Right.

31:21 Speaker 1 That I've not just educated a student, I've educated a teacher.

31:25 Speaker 2 Right.

31:25 Speaker 1 I wanna take it back to your original question-

31:26 Speaker 2 No, no, we'll get there. We'll get, we-we're, we're-

31:28 Speaker 1 But that background is vital.

31:29 Speaker 2 No, we're, we're getting there. Uh, we're getting there, but I, I, I do, I do want to dwell one more moment on, on that, on that idea from Rabbi Saul Jacobson, which is absolutely fascinating because he, he, he's tracing this, this, this trend of over the generations, starting with Reb Maharash, where the Reb Maharash was, was Rebbe like empowered by the Tzemach Tzedek which was the height of kind of Lubavitch cen- being centralized and so on. And from then on, there were challenges, right? The, the Reb Rashab didn't accept for 10 years, and then the Friediker Rebbe was, was, you know, was wandering for many years. Uh, and, and right? There, there's, there's this trend that he's, that he's pointing to of... I mean, I don't know how else to say it, but, but, but the Rebbeim almost losing their kind of authority, right? That would be one way to see it. Or on the other hand, choosing to empower the Hasidim more and more. However you wanna-

32:29 Speaker 1 I, I stick with the latter narrative.

32:31 Speaker 2 The latter's-

32:31 Speaker 1 If you wanna have less flack.

32:32 Speaker 2 The latter's for sure the more kosher way of saying it, but, but I mean, the way he's-- The Reb, the Reb Maharash, his-

32:39 Speaker 1 But I, I-

32:39 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm quoting him. The Reb-- Quoting him how you quoted him. The Reb Maharash used to command, the Reb Rashab would suggest, the Friediker would ask. Uh, what's that pointing to? So you could say, well, they just chose to be different. You could also say that there was... Because it, the history would show that things did fragment a little bit, and things did get more, more difficult. Is that true?

33:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I w- I would add this. You have Torah, Matan Torah, Sinai and Purim are a good example as well. The Gemara says-

33:08 Speaker 2 Right, right

33:08 Speaker 1 ... that Matan Torah was given, and y- nothing more authoritative than-

33:12 Speaker 2 Right

33:12 Speaker 1 ... Sinai. And yet it says, "Mekan m'd'oraita." So you need Kimu v'kiblu with them.

33:17 Speaker 2 Right.

33:17 Speaker 1 Because the Jews could still say, "You know, you imposed it on us."

33:20 Speaker 2 Right.

33:20 Speaker 1 "You commanded us."

33:22 Speaker 2 Right.

33:22 Speaker 1 So Purim, Kimu v'kiblu, they accepted at their own will. I think history in general is a process where first earlier stages, God is like more imposing.

33:33 Speaker 2 Authoritative.

33:33 Speaker 1 But then he says, "You know, you've grown up. Now you have to start internalizing. I need you to be partners with me. You're not..." I think it's the same idea with children and adults.

33:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

33:43 Speaker 1 Your five-year-old child, you're not going to tell them, "Initiate-

33:46 Speaker 2 Right

33:46 Speaker 1 ... big things."

33:47 Speaker 2 Right.

33:48 Speaker 1 You know, uh, but, but at 2025, you're expected now.

33:51 Speaker 2 Right.

33:51 Speaker 1 The Rebbe, the Rebbe said in one of the Ichud HaChabad, he said, "The Hasid- the Shluchim have now become g'dim naseh tiyoshim."

33:59 Speaker 2 Right.

34:00 Speaker 1 The little sheep have become now, and they should be able to make decisions. Now, it wasn't that he was saying, "No, don't listen to my directives."

34:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:08 Speaker 1 You're wise enough. How often the Rebbe would say, "Chala sar v'sat." You should answer the problem based on the situation that's local situation. Where the Rebbe couldn't come up with an advice. But I think that's... So I would l- what I would say is that I think a lot of it was the evolution of Hasidus has to become more internal and more internal lies by the Hasidim.

34:31 Speaker 2 Right.

34:31 Speaker 1 And commanding is not the way. Now it has to become... That would be my approach. I agree with you that there were other factors-

34:39 Speaker 2 Right

34:39 Speaker 1 ... that, that also played into it. In many ways, the Beit Din ruling-

34:43 Speaker 2 Right

34:43 Speaker 1 ... where Judge Schiffrin says there was a time where Hasidim and the Reb- and the Rebbes had such a close relationship they didn't need a legal agreement.

34:51 Speaker 2 Right.

34:51 Speaker 1 But because things got fragmented, and they moved to the United States, and there'd be more problems, it wasn't, uh, that level of, of hiskashrus, let's put it that way, that we need to now establish.

35:02 Speaker 2 Right.

35:03 Speaker 1 So I think you're correct in that. I mean, you know, the Rebbe Purim, Purim taf shin mem zayin 1987, he says, he always wondered why Mashiach didn't come yet. The Friediker Rebbe said in the '40s, "The alte teshuva, the alte geulah." Here it is, and the, and why didn't it happen? And the Rebbe refused to accept that it was just a, uh, ketz-

35:23 Speaker 2 Right

35:23 Speaker 1 ... like an opportune moment. And the Rebbe said, "The only answer I found after ribhu yagiya," the only time the Rebbe ever used that word. "After much exertion, the only answer I found is that because there was a change." If the hiskashrus to the Rebbe was on the highest level, the Rebbe could finish the job himself. But since the hiskashrus is not on the highest level, it goes over from nasi ta chail.

35:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:51 Speaker 1 If you want a radical shift. The Rebbe says that.

35:55 Speaker 2 Wow.

35:55 Speaker 1 I remember then there was controversy. Hasidim said, "That means we have to be mekashah ourselves more." But the Rebbe said it. He says, "So it goes over from hanasi ta chail."

36:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:04 Speaker 1 Now, he didn't mean that there's no longer a nasi, Chazzal, there's no Rebbe.

36:08 Speaker 2 Right.

36:08 Speaker 1 But it means that there's a little shift. There's more responsibility on your end than there was in the past. I think that's, that's the way I would express the Reb Maharash, the evolution, so to speak, Reb Maharash, Reb Rashab, Friediker Rebbe.

36:22 Speaker 2 Right.

36:23 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe-- And let's be honest, today you have to say that because if we were in 1950 when Gimel Tammuz would happen in 1950, I don't think we were ready-

36:33 Speaker 2 Right

36:33 Speaker 1 ... and had the tools. We were too, uh, immature, maybe the word, or not trained enough. Now, I'm not trying to justify Gimel Tammuz. We all wish the Rebbe would be here and, and just bring Mashiach. But to say we were lost altogether, no, he gave us enough tools-

36:48 Speaker 2 Mm

36:49 Speaker 1 ... and continues to give enough because we have matured. I mean, I, I'm absolutely say that.

36:54 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:54 Speaker 1 You have to say that. 'Cause God forbid, 'cause if you don't say that, then you're saying is that we were left lost at sea.

37:01 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right? Then you have, then you have a question on God also. But I, uh, I, I thi-

37:06 Speaker 1 No

37:06 Speaker 2 ... I, I, I didn't mean to, I didn't mean to paint it that there's two ways of interpreting it, either positive or negative. I think even if you talk about the fact that Lubavitch was fragmenting or, you know, the Rebbe's authority was, was not as, I don't know, as, as, as, as obvious as it used to be, that could also be not because the, the Reb- the Rebbeim changed. It could also be because as Lubavitch developed one generation after another, the Chassidim were now in a way more set in their ways as Lubavitchers, right? Like the Dater Chassidim were all first time Lubavitchers. They're all Mekubavim. So in, in many ways, like without the Alter Rebbe, they, they had no identity, even though they were he- head and shoulders above us in, in every other aspect, right?

37:56 Speaker 1 I, I, I hear you. Yeah.

37:57 Speaker 2 Like I, I'm, like I, I, I, I mean, people might say I'm trying to push through a theory here. I'm not trying to push through anything. I, I, I think, I think, I think there w- I think you could, you could, you could, you could see that far to Rabbi Saul Jacobson as a comment on the development of Lubavitch identity or, or the, the identity of the Lubavitch Chassid over the generations to the point that as you get one-- every generation, the Chassid becomes a more, uh, fully fledged individual. I don't wanna sit too much time on that part. It's just a part at the end of the day.

38:28 Speaker 1 No, that's fair.

38:29 Speaker 2 But, but what I, what I, what I would wanna ask though is how does that all fit in with, with the sense that because, you know, the, the, the, the idea that the, the Reb Rashab was, was, was less authoritative than Reb Maharash, uh, and 57th continuing like that, fair enough, at least to the history that I know. But it's very hard for me to understand or, or to see how, how the Rebbe was suggesting things. Yes, there w- there was this element that we've discussed, but Lubavitch became extremely like following orders.

39:04 Speaker 1 It's a good question, and, um, because it was-

39:06 Speaker 2 But when did, when did Rabbi Saul Jacobson say that part?

39:09 Speaker 1 It was in the early '70s.

39:11 Speaker 2 In the early lameds?

39:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:12 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:13 Speaker 1 Early lamed.

39:14 Speaker 2 That answers a question.

39:15 Speaker 1 It may or, or may not. Well, no, I'll tell you, because the interesting thing is, and this may be controversial for some, but I'll say it anyway. Um, on one hand, people would say, "One second here. Nobody, of all the Rebbeim, had such authority as the Rebbe did." The Rebbe was seen as a Melech.

39:31 Speaker 2 Right.

39:32 Speaker 1 By Farbrengens, nobody spoke. By other Far-- by the r- previous Rebbeim, you know, others would ask questions.

39:38 Speaker 2 Right.

39:38 Speaker 1 Not, God forbid, that people were less respectful, but it was less formal.

39:42 Speaker 2 Right.

39:42 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe was a Malchus-

39:44 Speaker 2 Right

39:44 Speaker 1 ... you know, Melech. Especially as the years passed, the Rebbe was not like, you know, maybe early years they say he was more like a father to a son. The Rebbe was, I guess, closer, smaller crowd. Um, I'll tell you the truth. I, I have to say this just for my own to vent, okay?

40:00 Speaker 2 So Dave-

40:00 Speaker 1 Can we vent?

40:01 Speaker 2 ... this is, this is what we're here for.

40:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. No, because I think that something diverged. The idea of a Melech or a Rebbe being an absolute authority like Moshe Rabbeinu, and by Emunu Hashem ubemeshi avdei is not new to the Rebbe. That's Hashem said, "I'm giving Moshe that type of th- authority, that power." But there's also a downside to that because the people, you can also say it takes away in a way their own growing up.

40:28 Speaker 2 Right.

40:28 Speaker 1 They just turn to Moshe. You know what? A crutch. Moshe will solve all my problems.

40:33 Speaker 2 And look what happened to them.

40:34 Speaker 1 And, and Torah doesn't want that. Torah wants you to internalize it. It's good there's a Moshe within each of us. That's also a statement. That means you have... And again, the delicate balance. When do you turn to Moshe? When do you turn to... So I, what I've seen is that since Lubavitch embraces people of all backgrounds, you have people that are, I don't, I don't like to call names to anyone, but there are people who are, let's call it less thoughtful, less independent, and they do want a crutch, and they do want a cult personality type. And therefore, and I say this, I've said, said it on the record, so it's not anything really new.

41:11 Speaker 2 Right.

41:11 Speaker 1 This has nothing to do with the Rebbe. This is to do with some people. They want that. They want, "Just tell me what to do. I don't wanna think."

41:18 Speaker 2 Right.

41:18 Speaker 1 Um, and, and frankly, some people the Rebbe responded to, if they were basically, "You're a child, I'll treat you like a child, and I'll tell you what to do." But that's not what I want. I want you to be an adult. Take my directives and internalize them, and you don't have to keep running back to me and ask me every little detail. How many times did the Rebbe write to people? I already told you. Now go talk to the Mumchim. Translate it.

41:41 Speaker 2 Right.

41:41 Speaker 1 He wasn't saying that I don't have authority anymore. He was saying, "Part of my authority..." Rabbi, uh, Zalman Gourary, I believe it was, that said once asked the Rebbe a question. The Rebbe said, "Go to Yedidim Uvinim." A classic answer.

41:56 Speaker 2 Right.

41:56 Speaker 1 Friends that are experts. So he says, "I want the Rebbe's answer. I don't want Yedidim Uvinim." And the Rebbe said, "Why do you mind if, why do you mind if I'll answer you through those friends?" In other words, "I'll inspire... They'll be inspired by me." In other words, obviously everything comes from one source, but the Rebbe wants Chassidus and Torah demands internalizing, and internalizing is hard work.

42:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:23 Speaker 1 And a lot of people don't wanna do that hard work. So I don't think it's about replacing the Rebbe's authority. I think it's about integrating it. You know, grow up. I'm give... I gave you, and now internalize it.

42:36 Speaker 2 But is it-- Fair enough. Fair enough. I mean, there's no question that there, that-

42:40 Speaker 1 But some people abuse that.

42:42 Speaker 2 I-

42:42 Speaker 1 And, and you know what? Look, if you're, God forbid, if you have children, right? And one child is very independent and very intelligent, another child is more dependent. You know, you, you, you deal with each one individually. You don't-

42:54 Speaker 2 Right.

42:55 Speaker 1 Someone needs more, you give them more.

42:58 Speaker 2 Right.

42:58 Speaker 1 They used to say when the Rebbe would smile to someone and was very Mekarev him, it meant that he needed it more and, and therefore. And those that the Rebbe did not mean they didn't need it as much. They were more-

43:08 Speaker 2 Right The, the question is, I could-- I mean, point taken that there will, there will always be a segment of people, you know, and there'll be a segment with each individual that wants to take the easy way out. That's just human nature. But we could ask the question in the other direction, which is hypothetically, how does it even work? Or th- how does it even work that you said like a partnership or, or fifty-fifty or however exactly we, we define it, how does it even work? Because any partnership implies some kind of, some kind of, uh, like resonance or e- like some kind of, um, uh, I don't... Some kind of equality, I suppose, or some kind of, some kind of match where, you know, i-if you're not a partner, if, if, if one person... Y-you're not a partner with the, with, with the boss of your company, right? Like, like I mean, they, they, they-

44:06 Speaker 1 Who does that?

44:07 Speaker 2 Today, today, for example, they'll call people in Starbucks partners, like the employees. It's a joke. It's a joke, right? At the end of the day, there, there's the owner, and there's the s- there's the people that own the stocks and the management, and then there are the employees. You can call them whatever you want, but it's not a real thing, right? You could treat them nicer as partners, but is it really a partnership? Not really, right? A is, is a, is depends on, on some kind of, on some kind of-

44:29 Speaker 1 Commonality

44:30 Speaker 2 ... commonality and some kind of we would say, right? And like at the end of the day, the, like the question about, about Chassidus, at least one of the big questions that I have is what does it even look like for there to be an individual who, who, who flourishes in his individuality and expresses the entirety of, of who he's supposed to be or she's supposed to be, and at the same time somehow is connected to this and in the presence of another individual who is so much bigger than him and overpowering in terms of his presence? You right? Is it-

45:10 Speaker 1 And what you're asking is, I would say maybe the most, um, fundamental question about all of Torah and Chassidus, and that is if you want a distance, all you need is creator and creation.

45:22 Speaker 2 Right.

45:22 Speaker 1 God and us.

45:23 Speaker 2 Right.

45:24 Speaker 1 Nothing in common. Creator, creator. Infinite and beyond infinite, and we're finite mortals.

45:29 Speaker 2 Right.

45:30 Speaker 1 Um, and yet Hashem says, God says,

45:35 Speaker 2 Right.

45:35 Speaker 1 Not only that, a marriage.

45:36 Speaker 2 Right.

45:36 Speaker 1 Husband and wife.

45:38 Speaker 2 Right.

45:38 Speaker 1 And other... Yes, there are refer-references to master and servant-

45:42 Speaker 2 Right

45:42 Speaker 1 ... king and subject, but there's also father and son and partnership.

45:47 Speaker 2 Right.

45:47 Speaker 1 And so the big question that, uh, I, I would say is the, is maybe the cornerstone question of all Kabbalah and Chassidus.

45:54 Speaker 2 Right.

45:54 Speaker 1 How do... You know, it's one thing if you're a master and a servant, but how do you find partnership here-

45:59 Speaker 2 Right

46:00 Speaker 1 ... when there's nothing in common? So briefly, the answer is firstly that we are created in the divine image, so there is something in common. We're, we have something divine about us.

46:11 Speaker 2 Right.

46:11 Speaker 1 And I think we have something in common with the Rebbe in that sense as well. Doesn't make you a Rebbe, but it's not just an infinitely distant. That's number one. Number two, we were given faculties. I mean, Tanya, the whole Tanya begins, we were given divine faculties.

46:26 Speaker 2 Right.

46:26 Speaker 1 We're given a mind, emotions. In other words, we have things that are mirror the divine personality, if you wish, created in the divine image, our minds, our emotions. While knowing that God is beyond us, there's also a God within us, so to speak.

46:42 Speaker 2 Right.

46:42 Speaker 1 Like if you want the difference between the in Chassidic language. And I think that's the, the, the dance, if you wish, the balance of how do you remain the, the like partnership and something in common, yet God remains beyond. And that is the real challenge, but it's completely doable. I think a good example would be a teacher and a student, where in the language of Chassidus the, the student's become like

47:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:12 Speaker 1 So initially, one is a teacher, one is a student. But the student, as he expands, his mind grows and expands. He becomes like his st- teacher to the point you can't even distinguish because he's learned. And this is, I mentioned earlier, he, he was not taught just what to think. He was taught how to think. In other words, the teacher taught him not just answers to questions. He taught him how to answer questions.

47:35 Speaker 2 Right.

47:36 Speaker 1 So I would say the greatest tribute to the Rebbe, more than anything, is the fact that now thirty years since Gimmel Tammuz, you have thousands of students that have become teachers, that don't... cannot turn to the Rebbe directly, send him a note, a letter. I mean, in the... I, I don't mean the, oh, hell, other ways, but like in a natural sense. But there's enough of the Rebbe's methodology that thousands of people have integrated and, and probably tens of thousands for that matter.

48:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:04 Speaker 1 'Cause he taught an approach to life. How do you look at Israel? How do you look at marriage? How do you look at, uh, technology we're talking about?

48:12 Speaker 2 Right.

48:12 Speaker 1 And I think that is ultimately... Now you'll say there's always a risk because as soon as you have some autonomy, then you can always go off the reservation. Okay, so God took that risk by giving us free will. We talked before about you can choose to use the gold-

48:27 Speaker 2 Right

48:27 Speaker 1 ... this way or that way. So I think that that's the beauty f-of it. That I, I mean, to me, that's when I see that people are s-resolving issues in their Chabad house or wherever they may be based on principles that the Rebbe set in motion.

48:42 Speaker 2 Right.

48:43 Speaker 1 That is ultimately... Is, are there risks? Of course. We make mistakes. Look, I, I see myself. I'll talk about myself for a moment. I am who I am today. Yes, I have skills. I have my talents. But I've s-absorbed so much of the Rebbe's approach, I don't even know what I would've been like without it. And yet I'm very independent in a sense. What I mean by independent, I, I use my mind. I try to be true to the sources, but then apply it accordingly.

49:13 Speaker 2 Right.

49:13 Speaker 1 And I think it's like a good musician. You don't change the, the musical notes, but you learn to play them in different ways-

49:20 Speaker 2 Right

49:20 Speaker 1 ... that are very unique to you. Uh, in other words, bottom line is, let's put it this way. I don't see a contradiction between following the Rebbe as a Rebbe and our own personal independence.

49:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

49:31 Speaker 1 Many people do.

49:32 Speaker 2 Right.

49:32 Speaker 1 'Cause they say, "The Rebbe's authority, uh, what, what happened to me? What about me, my interests?"

49:37 Speaker 2 Right.

49:37 Speaker 1 I do think that if you're mature enough and you learn, learn the approach, you can integrate and see the Rebbe more of a, of learning from him and b- and making it yours.

49:48 Speaker 2 Right.

49:48 Speaker 1 And it was never meant to replace your responsibility.

49:51 Speaker 2 Right.

49:52 Speaker 1 I'll share with you. Listen, the, you know, as, as a writer of the Sichas, I was privy to the Rebbe would answer and edit. So the last farbrengen So we're talking 1991. The Rebbe would have a stroke in the winter of '92. So the Sicha was about a very famous theme the Rebbe was... One of his fond, one of his favorite themes, that when you light the menorah, the shal heves eila me'ila, the flame has to rise on its own. Mm-hmm. Exactly what we're talking about. It's not enough for the Kohen to, the priest to light the menorah. He has to make sure the b- flame rises. And the Rebbe said this is fun- It has to catch. Right, catch, and that it's burning on its own. Right. You c- in other words, it, it can take a minute till it catches. Right. You have to wait. Right. And that's why it says ba'alos chah, not ba'ad la'kos chah. Right. You have to elevate. Right. It should rise. And the Rebbe said 'cause it's fundamental to education and to all inspiration, you don't just inspire people, you need to ignite something in them that they are now can inspire themselves. Mm-hmm. And he sp- he spoke at length 'cause on one hand, it's the Kohen Gadol that's lighting the menorah. On the other hand, the flame is burning on its own. Is it really on its own or not? This is what we're discussing here. Right. It was very nuanced and very, uh, it was

51:08 Speaker 1 very unclear. The conclusion was not so... So I wrote to the Rebbe two pages of questions to just clarify this. Is it our free will or God is giving us free will and he's... Is it really us or it's Him? You know, that, that, that little... And you know what the Rebbe responded? The only time he ever responded. He wrote on the side of the page. He wrote, "The whole theme of the farbrengen is to be a shal heves eila me'ila, to rise on your own, and you're asking me to answer your questions." How do you like that? That, that must have felt very, very nice. Y- no, actually I was- It, it's personal. Yeah, absolutely. But I would've, I, I wanted the Rebbe's answer, not my own. And then f- less than a year later, there's a stroke. And I always thought that why did the Rebbe an- He, he never answered that way. He could've answered that at every farbrengen, you know. I think the Rebbe was saying that, "I've given you enough that you can figure it out." He wasn't saying, you know, "You're as good as me." That's not the point. And I will say something further. He was saying also, "And that itself comes from me." Right. I ended up feeling that answer is what the Rebbe was saying, that that shal, what is the shal heves eila me- Don't think you're a self-made man. Right. Somebody lit your candle. Right. Someone lit it, and now when you really, um,

52:27 Speaker 1 work hard and you'll find an answer, give credit and know that ultimately it came from somewhere. It's like, you know, when p- when children realize that I got a lot more from my parents than I think I did. Right. And you know, beginning you think, "I don't need anyone. I did it all on my own. I'm a self-made man." Right. And I think that's the... It's, it's, at end of the day, it is a form of what we Chassidis call bitul. Right. That your greatness is not because of you. It come from somewhere. But it's, but, but you get credit because you have channeled it. Right. I, I, it's not a simple balance. I'm telling you, it's much easier to just be a puppet, let's be honest. Right. Just follow orders and veiter, you know? Right. But, um, it's not the way it is. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's such a, it's such a jarring conversation to have because so much of, so much of the conversation's always about bitul and, and, and, you know, the, the, the... In many ways, the Derech Shvi conversation, at least the ones that I remember from yeshiva, was always how with time the Rebbeim got bigger and bigger and more and more dominant in terms of, like, the, the identity of Lubavitch became more and more about the Rebbe, right? Someone even put it to me on the podcast a few weeks ago that Derech Shvi, the way he defined Derech Shvi was Rebbe-centric and all

53:44 Speaker 1 about the Rebbe, right? And in many ways, history would, would, would, would, would back him up. That's what it looks like for sure. But what you're suggesting, and you know, that far from Meshalach going back to it, but what you're suggesting is if, if anything, that the project of Lubavitch, the project of the Rebbeim over the generations was to make a Chassid more and more, I don't know the word's independent, but more and more autonomous, more and more empowered, that the end result should be a Shliach, should be someone who is, who is, who is, who is enabled and empowered to, to, to bec- to become what he's meant to be, right? More than it used to be that way. And i- in, in that sense, that's what's so jarring here. But so I, I, I don't wanna keep on beating that, that, that horse. I do wanna go back to that original thing that, that I wanted to bring up, 'cause I think in many ways that could answer historically what kinda happened here, so- I also wanna get back to that. Yeah, yeah. But I-- But, but because you said... Can I just say something then I- Of course you can. Yeah. Okay. Let me use language of Chassidus, okay? For those that would appreciate. You know, in Chassidus they talk about the difference between oyer and yesh. Right. That oyer is completely bottle. Right. It doesn't have any light and no light of its own. All it is, take away the source,

55:04 Speaker 1 the oyer disappears. Right. Oyer bitul. And there's many levels in that bitul. Then you talk about a yesh. God creates a yesh. On its own, it feels like it's autonomous and independent. Right. To the point that the Alter Rebbe maybe, I would say the most radical Chiddushim of all, that the yesh ha'nivra in its feeling with tzaddikim atzmusa that I am self-made, that's not false entirely 'cause it comes from atzmuss who is self-made. Right. It's just atzmuss. So obviously, that itself comes from atzmuss, but our feeling of that indepen- oyer does not have that. Oyer will never feel independent. Right. It's not meant to feel. So which is a higher level? So usually we think oyer, bitul top, oyer total bitul- Right ... to the, to the etzem. And then we learn, no, in time when Mashiach comes, the yesh ha'nivra will be one with the yesh ha'meti 'cause the etzem- Right ... of the yesh will, we will recognize that it's connected to the etzem. And it's only found in the yesh ha'nivra. So I would say this, that you mentioned these two different ways. To me, the Rebbeim become greater- When we become greater Chassid Exactly. Yeah. So the more we can integrate, and I could right now give you an answer to a question that I did not hear directly from the Rebbe but I was inspired, is greater than if I would just repeat an answer from the Rebbe. Right. That's the way I would put it. I wanna sh- I,

56:24 Speaker 1 I have to share this story, okay? I'm, I'm, I'm in no rush. Good. Me, me, neither am I. Worst case, we'll have to do a second, a second one, but No, but I, I do wanna go back 'cause I think this is a very good long introduction to your initial question. All right. Because it'll give it a lot more, I think, richness. So the Rebbe in the early years, in Tav Shin Yud - Yud Aleph, yeah, '50, '51. So he was asked questions, and the Rebbe was saying the Re- you know, the «shver leibt» and the «haredos halil,» everything goes on. Uh, however you understood what that meant. And a number of times the Rebbe-- people would say to the Rebbe, "But we don't know what to do." Right. And he would say, "The Rebbe gave you all the kochas." And a few places he writes, «kesiper hayedua Rab Arin Balinitzer.» So I was very intrigued. What's the story here? And I found a story. Arin Balinitzer was a Chassid of the Tzemach Tzedek. Tzemach Tzedek, as we know, would go often to Petersburg for government to make life easier for the Jews, make, you know, the, a little more lax the tax laws or the dis- the... One time the Tzemach Tzedek couldn't go, so he called in Rabban, who was a very distinguished and also learned and, uh, b-big Chassid. And he says, "Rabban, I'm gonna send you as my shliach to go to Petersburg, and you'll do the negotiations, the, the different

57:46 Speaker 1 things." Rabban asked the Tzemach Tzedek, "What happens if I have a safek, a doubt?" Remember those days there was no faxes, no emails. Right. And the Tzemach Tzedek answers, "You'll, you'll use your own thinking. You'll figure it out." The Rebbe Maharash, who was not Rebbe yet, but he was in the room. When he heard that, he didn't say anything, but in his heart he felt, "Okay, Rabban is a big Chassid, but he has a da'as atzmi." You know, for some Chassidim that was, like, a little too, maybe too independent. Right. He's very... No, he-- the Rebbe Tzemach Tzedek trusted him, but still, you know, he's like, he's not complete «bittle.» That's the- What does that say about you, that the Rebbe is being ma- Yeah, saying da'as atzmi. Yeah. Right. Okay. But you gotta hear the, the end of the story. Right. Okay. So he goes off to Petersburg. They're sitting at the table once in Lubavitch. Tzemach Tzedek suddenly gets very serious, and he says, "Rab Arin «matetzech» in Petersburg." He's struggling. He sensed that there's something, and he waits a few minutes, and everybody's watching. Tzemach Tzedek suddenly smiles and says, «Good, good. Et mechaven geven.» In other words, Rab Arin resolved the issue ex-exactly as I would have. So the Rebbe Maharash realized, nah, Rabban is much bigger «bittle.» Uh-huh. A «bittle» of a robot, a puppet, was the Chassidish. You know, you program it, and it does whatever you want it to do. Right. Here is a man that has

59:11 Speaker 1 da'as atzmi. Mm. And his da'as atzmi is so saturated with the Rebbe's approach that without even hearing the Rebbe, he was mechaben. So he realized far deeper «bittle.» Right. That, that's the letter, the, the Rebbe's letters he refers. I... That to me- It's a fa- Similar to- No, it's a fantastic story ... similar like the Rebbe's s- the, the idea. So I honestly, uh, to me, I-- Hey, listen, I consider myself a pretty independent thinking person. Right. You know, I mean, I feel I'm not a conformist, and yet I am proud to say that my, what I teach, what I speak about is what I heard from the Rebbe. Right. But I don't repeat it like a, a, like a tape recorder. Right. I've integrated it. You know, I speak in language, you know, I've written books. It's not the original «lashon,» but I really believe that the spirit is there. And I find myself this, that to me, the Chassidish is not to translate it word for word. The tr- Chassidish is to be able to digest it and give it out to someone- Right ... who may not even understand the original of the Rebbe, but you have not compromised the integrity and the spirit of the original. Right. That is the ultimate, uh- Yeah. I mean, just to steel man the other side, you know, people would say, yeah, let's say all intentions are pure, and, and you're not in it for yourself, and you, y-y-you talk of trying to be mechaben,

1:00:30 Speaker 1 right? And I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm not trying to put you on the, on the, on the, on trial here. But a p- a person, a person is, is, is trying his best to, to share the Rebbe's message, but he's doing it in this more kind of his, in his own «eiges.» Right? What... Isn't there a risk of making a mistake, right? Isn't there a risk of, of, of getting either because subconsciously you have too much of your ego and schmutz in there, or you ‹pashut› maybe, maybe you made a mistake, right? And, you know, and, like, there's, there's for sure an idea in, in, in, in Chassidus over the generations of ‹eises haraV› and ‹chazering it ibur› exactly the way that it's written or was said. But, you know, I, I think, I think there's a valid concern there, but, but at some point it becomes paralyzing. And at some point, the, the, the, the fear of God forbid making a mistake becomes the mistake itself, right? Where yes, you might make a mistake, but if you're not willing to make a mistake, then, then that is the biggest mistake because what are you... You're, you're, you're doing nothing, right? Like, at the end of the day, life without risk is, is death. It's not life. Like they say, the greatest risk is not taking risk. Right. So I totally agree. Excellent point, and I could be about me as well. I've made my mistakes. Right. Some I've discovered, some probably haven't

1:01:52 Speaker 1 discovered yet , you know? Right. No, no. So it's, it's totally correct. But you know what? This goes back to, to that bizarre story in the Gemara. Moshe is reading the Torah that Hashem is teaching him, and it says, «Nasa adam betzomeinu kidmu said,» let us create man in- Our image. Right. Plural. Right. And Moshe says to Hashem, "Why, well, who's this us?" Right. "Our? It's all Hashem Echad." Right. "Why would you leave the impression of a duality?" Right. And you know what Hashem answers? "HaReitz Elit Es Yita." Right. "Those that wanna make a mistake, let them make a mistake." So the question is, one second here, why is God implanting into- Right ... the Torah a, a, a literally a, a very deceptive lie- Right ... essentially. So I remember the Rebbe once saying- And it's, that's not stam. Like that line has been used by, by, by, by other religions and other things to really- Yeah ... to really make... It's, it's not s- like- Yeah. No, no, it's- A lot, a lot of Torahs came out of that line. Exactly. And I remember the Rebbe once saying, "That's the yesod of life." God created, I'm, I'm paraphrasing here- Right ... an agnostic universe. Right. He created a universe where you could deny His existence. So you could say, "Why would you do that?" Right. But that's what He wants. Right. Or else there's no purpose to it all. So it, it is a concern. I'll, I'll say when people ask me, "So

1:03:11 Speaker 1 how do you avoid making mistakes?" I said, "First of all, you make a mistake, and you're always open to hearing- Right ... being corrected. Don't let your ego get in the way." Right. "And you acknowledge it." Right. "I made a mistake, and I stand corrected," number one. Number two, um, why are you doing this in the first place? If you're doing it just self-aggrandizement, you know. I, I firmly do what I do because I believe in the message, so I want it to be as real as possible. Right. If I'd be accused that I wrote my own ideas what I heard from the Rebbe, uh, it, I, I would not be very pleased simply 'cause I didn't do the job I was supposed to convey. Right. So I think there's a lot of in-integrity and so on. What about shluchim? Did shluchim make mistakes? The Rebbe sent them out, gave them a certain autonomy for sure. Right. And I'm sure they made mistakes, financial mistakes, human mistakes. Right. But I think, I, I don't know who said it, the risk is-- I think you put it well before, but I'll just say it, rephrase it. The risk of a l- not, of, of not giving free will is worse than people making a mistake. And basically, Hashem, and the same with the Rebbe said, "I'd rather you be able to make a mistake, but it's gonna be yours." Right. I mean, I think as parents, when you let your child start walking the first time,

1:04:29 Speaker 1 they will fall. Right. And you want them to fall. So you say, "I don't want them to fall. I'm gonna hold them all the time." Right. Very nice, but they'll never learn to walk. Right. So you're there for them. "I'll pick you up. I'll correct, but I want you to learn to walk on your own." Right. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so interesting. Uh, this, this whole... You brought up earlier the, the Chabad Rebbe of the, the Yash, the Yashan Ivra and the Yashan Miti. I mean, this is in the first Maimon, Basoli Gani. Yep. And I was just learning the Maimon recently, and it's, it's, it's such a radical Maimon. I mean, every time I learn it, I realize how much more radical it is, and i- in the sense that it's, it's such a... I don't know if it's radical vis-à-vis the rest of Chassidus. It's, I'm not a big enough scholar to say that. But it's, it's such a, it's such a confronting message in the sense that the Rebbe basically says that we, we cannot take comfort in the hierarchy of oy or the hierarchy of spirituality. At the end of the day, we're confronted with the fact that we live in this world, and the fact that this world is a Yashan Ivra forces us to understand that the Kavanah, Kavanah Sabria was not about Giluyim because there's something deeper in this world than there. Exactly. I, we see this world as a place of mistakes and Yashas and all

1:05:54 Speaker 1 kinds of garbage. Now, fakert, that, that is, that is a mission. Now, what does that do to... And, and that, that theme runs through the whole Mai- the whole Maimon, right? The, that it's not about Mesires Nefesh of Rabbi Akiva. It's about being mefarsem elokos in this world. Mesires Nefesh is just part of that. Yep. Meaning to rob Yiddishkeit of that kind of hierarchy, that there's this pinnacle moment which Rabbi Akiva aspired to Mesires Nefesh and say, "No, no, there's no such thing as a clear pinnacle." What nobody wants to be Mesires Nefesh, but people wanna have a hierarchy. They wanna have a what does it look like? What is a climax of spirituality? We can't even give you that, right? We can't even give you that because at the end of the day, we're in this world. We're not, we're not looking to leave this world. Right. And, and, and then, of course, the Maimon, and it gives me goosebumps every time I talk about it. I mean, it's such a emotional message because the Rebbe's talking about himself, and the Rebbe's crying through the Maimon and talking about how, "I wish I didn't have to do this." Right? I, I... It's, I, I am, I am, I am confronted with reality that tells me I must do this. Yeah. Right? And- I find that, yeah, it's one of the most inspiring moments as well. Whenever I need those last minutes in the Maimon when he says, "Who asked for this?" Right. "Not with

1:07:11 Speaker 1 our will." But like it's, it's the ultimate, um, surrender to commitment to the cause. Right. Right. But I, I don't think that that, those two lines can be disconnected for the rest of the Maimon. The whole Maimon is about- No, I agree. I agree. Yeah ... how, how, how we don't have the comfort of kind of that spiritual clarity where, you know, the, the bigger the giluy, the more, the, the more real it is. Yep. The, the, the closer to Isaac Sarav, therefore, that's the right thing to say. No, that's not the reality we live in. We live in a confused reality. We live in a confusing reality, and that is what... Right? That is what we have. So, um- But let's go back to the original. Yeah, no, we, that we must go back to the original. Yeah. So, so, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about this, this, this, this concept of Lubavitch becoming more and more, uh, you know, Chassidim becoming more and more empowered, let's say. I like the word integrated. Integrated. Integrating the Rebbeshe Kochas.

1:08:10 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay. Okay, fair enough. I, I won't quibble on that. Remember, Moshiach comes, it says, "Lo yamdu od ish es re'ehu ki kulam yedu etzi lemiktana vadailam." Right. No one will learn or teach each other 'cause everyone will know the etzem. Right. And still says miktana vadailam. Right. So it doesn't mean there won't be distinctions. The one of our focus. I'm pretty sure this is discussed in, in this very shaila, isn't it? Yes, of course. Uh, so- So it says because each of us will experience etzem in our way. Somewhere- But- It's, it's reminding me of Ayin Beis. I don't know. Ayin Beis, uh- Is it discussed there? I don't know this particular, but the idea for sure is discussed. I remi-- I can't remember. Look, the point is etzem and giluyim. Right. That's the end of the story. So you need-- We're not gonna eliminate, um, structure. Right. We're just structure will be saturated with beyond structure- Right ...let's put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. No, uh, uh, well, that, that's- Anyway, I didn't mean to cut you off ...well, no, but that's a ve- that's the very point. If you use this confusion or this challenge of yesh anivre being yesh amiti to dismiss giluyim, that is your tell, that is your siman that you've gone way, way off the radar. Exactly. You've lost the point. If, if you use your, your, your self-identity and, and your, you know, being integrated to dismiss the other side of it or, or the side of

1:09:36 Speaker 1 bittul and the side of, of, of, of, of devotion, right? And, and, and, and appreciation of something much larger than you, that is your sign that, that, that this is not-- Like, that's not what we're talking about here, right? Because then it's yesh, yesh anivre q- as yesh anivre. But the yesh anivre that, that is looking for yesh amiti appreciates giluyim as much as anybody else, but also understands that that's not all that there is. Exactly. That's precisely what makes it near impossible. Very well said, and I would t-take it one step, that the yesh anivre realizes that it's all about the bittul to the higher. Right. But it realizes also it's not about me enjoying it. Right. I have to come back to the yesh and do it like you said, not just the spiritual delights, but yeah, I have to do the job- Right ...as, as, yeah, absolutely. All right, so let's go, so let's go back to our original, uh, the original, the original question, because I do feel this, this, this gives a lot of explanation of what happened and maybe why it happened and, uh, maybe- Well, I- ...it's supposed to happen. So, so you, you were-- I just wanna set up a little bit. You, you were, you were working, as you've mentioned a few times, uh, on the sichas. Um, we would need a whole separate podcast to properly delve into that experience, and God willing, we'll do it one day. But you were working, um, you were

1:10:51 Speaker 1 working on, on, on, on, on, on, on editing the sichas and preparing them for print. But then at some point you got involved also in the, like, tech-technology of disseminating them. Yeah, exactly. So let me tell you exactly. I'll... And I'll... When we began, yeah, I didn't know where this conversation was gonna go. Neither did I. Yeah, but I did know this, that before I wanted to answer how we use technology, I wanted to go back to the very essence of what the role of technology is- Okay ...from the early on, and we got into, I think, a very good conversation. Loved it, yeah. No, the whole-- 'Cause end of the day, it's using both sides. It's technology, let's put it this way, represents the yesh. Right. The bittul to the Rebbe represents the purity, that there's no, uh- The no tapes. Yeah, exactly. So we're back to where we started. Right. So I-- It was 1979. When, when, let me go back a step. I began working in the Rebbe sichas, helping out in 1977. Okay. I was at the time twenty years old. So as a bocher. Yeah. I'd come '77, and I got involved as a bocher, yes. And I, and slowly- What, what, what attracted you to that? Or what s-- Was it just pure, uh, capability of memory? Was that what they were looking for? No, there was some, uh, yeshes involved too. In case you're wondering. You know, things were... No, I'll tell you what it was. I, I,

1:12:08 Speaker 1 I was always a very skeptical person. When I started getting drawn to chassidus, you know, I said, "You know what? I want access to the top." The top is the Rebbe. Okay. What better way than getting involved in the very chazara, repeating and publishing of the Rebbe's talks? But how does one get into chazara? No, I'm saying, I'm just, I'm telling you my motivation. Your why? Yeah. Okay. My question was the how. The how. Okay. I happened to also be gifted. Okay. And I was very intrigued by the chazara process. Right. Because, you know, hours of remembering the Rebbe's words verbatim I found to be- Right ...fascinating. Right. I didn't know whether I could do it or not, but then I started hanging around with those that did it, and I was- Right ...pretty good at it. Right. And I got better. Right. And I would help out, you know. Chazara was really an informal gathering of a few people after Shabbos, and we just-- Rabbi Yael or whoever it was would repeat, and people would say, "No, the, the, this was said, and then that was said." You know, it was one of these, uh, free-for-alls. And, um, and I was very intrigued by the process of remembering, and I ended up being really good at it. But what, what did, what did the good mean? That you could retain hours and hours and repeat it almost word for word. So what was it for? Rabbi Yael would be the chozer, and then whoever,

1:13:19 Speaker 1 whoever contributed in a meaningful enough way would be invited to- Who-- No, everyone. It was public. Anyone could come- Right ...and, and hear the chaz-- Chazara happened an hour after Shabbos. And he had a few, he had a few assistants at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A few bochurim that excelled at it- Right ...that usually were like his support. Some were as good as he was even in the remembering. Right. And sometimes they would say it. It wasn't always him. He was the, what's called the chief- The chief. Right ...chazara. Sometimes he was in the mood, sometimes less, sometimes he didn't remember that well. You know, he was a human being as well. Right. He wasn't a machine. So I started hanging out there, you know, helping out, and then I got involved because I was pretty good at it. Then I started reviewing the written transcripts, you know, to fill in anything maybe missing or understanding. So those years, '77, '78, something, I worked very closely with Rabbi Yael. Mm-hmm. He wasn't really writing farbrengens then, except after the Rebbe's heart attack in 1977. So then the first, the weeks after that, he was doing writings. I helped him a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, discussing it, uh, a sounding board, uh, helping with footnotes and- Mm-hmm ...um, then in s- 1979, end of '79, Hanukkah, Tav Shin Mem, the writer at the time, um, went, went off to Eretz Israel. He got married. He became a shliach in Eilat, and I took over. I

1:14:38 Speaker 1 became... You know, it was, it wasn't elections or anything like that. It was just pre- uh, pretty obvious. Right. They didn't have many that can do this well. Right. So I became then the main writer as well. So I was a chozer and a writer, maniah. Um, at the time, what did I use? A typewriter. Plain typewriter. And you're, at this point, you're twenty-one years old. Uh, now I'm already by 19 s- uh, 1979, I was already twenty-two, twenty-three. And you're married already? No. Single. I was married in, in, in '83. So you're a single bocher. Single bocher, and, uh, lo- uh, uh, found my labor of love. Huh. Not gettinggetting paid for it, just in case you're wondering. Um- Oh, I, I was very worried. Yeah, it was just... It was, it was ganey. It was unbelievable 'cause I loved it. I was completely immersed, immersed. Very difficult work. Right. First of all, concentration to remember, and then after Shabbos, the research, and then start to write. It was, uh... It deserves its own discussion, the process. I wanna move to the technology part, but- Yeah. One side, one side question. Are you able to re- at the-- or at least at the time when you were able to remember hours of the Rebbe's farbrengen, were you able to remember other conversations verbatim the same way? Not at the same time. No, I understand. No. No, I understand. That's a joke. Um, if I wanted to, yeah, and I can do it now,

1:15:59 Speaker 1 too. You can. I can turn it on whenever I need to, yeah. Um, I was able to, but it had to be important. Remember- Right ... if it's not important to you, why would I, uh, why would I, uh, strain myself? Well, that's what I'm asking. Yeah. That's what I'm asking. Because the process is really emptying your mind of your own ideas and just becoming a dry sponge of absorption. Right. That's the real challenge. How do you do that? 'Cause if you can do that, you'll remember everything, like little children do. But what were, what were your tr- what was your training for that? When did you do that beforehand? I never did. I just trained by necessity. Right. You know, like they say, war is the father of all invention- Right ... because necessity- Right ... creates c-creativity, you know? So this was your- I did it- This was your Manhattan Project, is what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Very well said. All right. And I, I wished to talk to some that did it, but everybody had their own little- Method ... let's put it this, there was no school for such retention. Right. You had to just, um, you had to want very much, a lot of willpower, 'cause it needs tremendous concentration. 'Cause distraction is the first problem. You get distracted. At a farbrengen. Yeah, by thoughts. Not necessarily by something. Right. Your, your own thoughts can be distracting. You know, you hear a thought from the Rebbe, and it suddenly takes

1:17:10 Speaker 1 you, "Oh, wow, that, uh, is so exciting," and it reminds me of another thought. Right. And mi-meanwhile you're thinking about your thoughts, and you're- Right ... off. Right. So the key of that type of focus and concentration, you need a lot of mental, also power, 'cause as the, as the farbrengen wears-- goes on, your mind wears... You get, you get tired. I can imagine. The mind gets tired. I remember farbrengens, they end four or five hours. It was hard work just to keep that level of concentration. I've, I've been trying to remember the past few sentences that you said, and I'm already getting exhausted. Okay. So- I mean, my, my- We, we can do- Minds are, minds are made differently, but- Listen, I'm ready to do a dedicated session training people how to- Focus ... how to focus like... It's really how to listen well. Right. How to listen with respect for what the, what the other person is saying. Now, of course it helped that the Rebbe is speaking because that to me was historical. Right. You know, he's saying things that you're not gonna hear again. Right. If you don't remember it, it's lost forever. Right. So there was a lot of adrenaline involved. Pressure. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know. Oh, that's just a siren outside. So, so, um, I'm telling you, it deserves a-- this, this definitely deserves its own discussion. Yes. Tremendous lessons that I learned. I-I've actually started writing a book called, um, um, based on the secrets of the

1:18:27 Speaker 1 mind that I learned from my hours of remembering. Hmm. 'Cause it teaches you... It's so counterintuitive, you can't imagine. Right. 'Cause most people think memory is about brilliance. Right. It's not. Right. It's about listening. It's about bitl- Right ... to be honest. And more bitl you have, the better you remember. Right. So this is 1980. Reagan becomes president, if you want historical context- Right ... that year, which changed a lot of things in the United States as well. The Rebbe started talking a lot about much more global universal themes- Right ... including, uh, Sheva Mitzvot Bnei Noach, education, moment of silence. This is all that period. I'm saying it for a reason. I, I know, I, I know where you're going with this. Yeah. And, and then I'm using a simple little typewriter. Um, I don't know if you ever saw a typewriter. Yeah. Well, a-as a prop in some films that I've made. Right, exactly. But you know a typewriter. T-t- clacking away. Yeah. And if you- This, this is a, this is not the modern typewriter. This is electric. There was electric. There was an electric typewriter. This is an electric typewriter? I used later electric. I was using a regular one. This is the old-fashioned, the clickety-clack. The manual, yeah, clap, clap away. And if- ... your page doesn't look good, you gotta clump it up in the garbage can and retype it. Right. And if a mistake, you have to cross it out, do whiteouts. And this is a Hebrew t-

1:19:39 Speaker 1 and this is a Hebrew typewriter also. Yes. Hermes. It was called Hermes typewriter. Right. I still have one in my basement, I think. Right. Um, it's rusty. And anyway, I'm typing away. By the way, f- going from writing to typing is also not e- difficult... It's also not easy. Right. 'Cause when you write, for some reason your hand is like a natural seamless from your mind. Right. But you start typing, first time you type, it doesn't flow quite that well. Yeah. Right. It takes time to learn. Anyway, 1980 comes, 1981. 1981, 1982, if you look at the history books, the Commodore, the first PC. Not PC. No, I'm sorry. IBM did not give a PC. It was a Commodore. So I started-- I was very intrigued. I was always interested in science and technology, and I s- and I saw there's this thing called a word process. A word processor, basically everything goes digital. Right. You still type. Right. But this time, no paper. Right. No retyping. You wanna fix something, you wanna manipulate- There's a screen? A screen. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it was like a green screen. It was all built into one, uh, thing, the k- the keyboard and the screen. I have one in my office. So basically it's a word processor machine. Yeah, it's a machine. So it looks like modern computers- But all it does is word processing. Yeah, it was all word processing, and calculating like a calculator. Okay. And maybe a ping pong game or something. Right. You

1:20:59 Speaker 1 know, very basic- Right ... chess game, you know. But The word processor basically would cut out retyping it. You don't have to retype anything. Right. You just fix it on the screen, and then you print it out. So this is around '82. So we l- did some research. We had some people in our office. We did some research, and it wasn't a cheap proposition. And, um, and we knew we could save a day at least of production 'cause the retyping. You know, I would write up, let's say, 70, 80 pages. This, this is before the, the hagah- the sichas that came out every week edited. This is still the same recipe. Yeah, the Rebbe would still edit then, but more sporadically, not, uh- Okay. Yeah. Um, so- So this is just a matter of getting out a transcript of the farbrengen. Remember, the only-- Yeah, the, and the farbrengen w- no one could get a, a written transcript until we finished. Right. We finished by Thursday. It would get mailed out. People would get it in the mail the next Tuesday. Right. So basically 10, eight, 11 days after the farbrengen. Unless you spoke on the phone with someone- Right ... you wouldn't really know what the Rebbe said. And how often was the farbrengens in those days? Uh, not every Shabbos, but sometimes every second or third Shabbos. Right. Every fourth for sure, Shabbos Mevarch. Right, so you're catching up. Basically, you're getting the last farbrengen, and it's already the new farbrengen. Yeah, and

1:22:16 Speaker 1 in Taf Shin Mem, the Rebbe started much longer farbrengens. Uh-huh. And it was after the heart attack, and the Rebbe me-much more often farbrengens. So if you look at the volumes, you'll see suddenly they become- Bigger ... and almost as... And Mem Alef, Taf Shin Mem Alef was Hakhel. That's when the Rebbe instituted dancing in the streets on Kol Bais Sheva. That's when he started, um, he started also that year, every F- Shabbos was a farbrengen, so it was no longer catching up two weeks. We had to be-- It was, it was, it was overwhelming. How did you explain-- How did you understand the Rebbe adding farbrengens after, after the heart attack? It was very clear. By the Rebbe, there was no such thing as, as, uh, uh, a, a setback. Uh-huh. Every setback had to lead to double, triple work. That was as simple as that. Right. "Kasayana eysam keyir bevacheini frutz." The Rebbe said that, or- No, no ... this is just how people understood it? He said it also. He said to a few people, "We'll become b- stronger and bigger, and Chabad's only gonna grow." Yeah, he made it very clear. He actually said the famous story with the vacuum of the needle. Right. He said that already, uh- In, in- ... the first sicha ... '78, yeah. But he said it, that was- Yeah, he- ... a sicha from upstairs, right? He said it, yeah, and he said it to the doctors, that the vacuum will only create more power.

1:23:32 Speaker 1 Right. It was very clear. "Venifkal tukie poket meshavacha," the idea that the empty chair will only create more. Huh. It was very clear. It was, like, a given. And the Rebbe was told by the doctors to speak only Saturday nights, so Shabbat, 'cause not to exert himself, and you saw the Rebbe didn't like it. Uh-huh. So as soon as he was able to free himself of that... So when I started writing, th-that week is when the Rebbe stopped farbrengen mid Shabbos. You could read into it as you see fit. Um, that was it. The last farbrengen mid Shabbos was Shmois Taf Shin Mem. I started writing farbrengens Mid- Кейד Taf Shin Mem. So then the farbrengens started on Shabbos again, and they were long, longer. Um, so anyway, the-- cut to the, to the chase, we wrote to the Rebbe that we'd like to buy two, um, word processors, $5,000 each, five meg of memory. That's it. Why, why are you asking? 'Cause of money? We were, you know, we were, every-- we asked the Rebbe, you know, um, such a thing. We worked in the sichas, and we thought, uh, yeah, m- I mean, it was, it was asked for a bracha, I guess, or, uh, uh, we didn't wanna do something that the Rebbe would say no. I don't know. W- saying what was this far that there'd be a problem? What's the difference between a typewriter and a Commodore? It was like buying a house. You ask the Rebbe about buying a

1:24:46 Speaker 1 house- Uh-huh ... even if you needed it. Uh-huh. It was, uh, it was more of a, the right thing to do. That's what we did, you know? Uh-huh. Okay. We asked the Rebbe. It was gonna be $5,000 for two computers. It'd be $5,000 to design a font, a typeface in Hebrew that would be fitting. Oh, you were the first ones to use a Commodore for Hebrew. It wasn't Commodore. It was called Northstar. Right. It was like- But it was like a Commodore. Yeah, there was, there were others doing Hebrew, but it was all... But we wanted one designed in the same font that the Rebbe uses- Uh-huh ... ty- typeface. And we needed $5,000 for a printer. So $15,000. 20. Oh, oh- Two computers ... 5,000 each computer, okay. Yeah, 20,000, and we needed a printer. There was no laser printers. Right. It was dot matrix printer. You know what that is? You know, you probably don't even know. Ink is being shot, dot, and- Right ... has to go each line eight times to fill a letter in. Right, okay. 'Cause ink was being sprayed to the- So this is the prelude to the inkjet, which is a prelude to the laser. Exactly. I'm sure there's some s-steps in between. Yeah, the laser changed things much, much faster, much sharper. Yeah. And we wrote to the Rebbe. Rebbe asked, "Why do you need two computers?" So I c- we explained because one was for me to write, the second was for the typesetter. To

1:25:59 Speaker 1 already start working on editing. To work on it so it is. The Rebbe said yes. Rabbi Berel Weis from Los Angeles supported it. He gave us the 20,000, and we were in business. We were like one of the f- maybe the first in Chabad, and there was a need for it. We didn't do it for novelty purposes. Right. Right. The need was that... And, and it actually cut off, cut down probably a day and a half of work. Hmm. To all the-- Before that, everything had to be pasted and- Yeah ... footnotes on the bottom. You know, it was a mi- it was a nightmare. And if you made a mis- And, and numbers, the footnote numbers- Right ... had to be k- with wax- Right ... put on pages. Here, everything is automatic. Right. And, um, so that was the, the computer thing. A few years later, faxes started coming, and now here again, fax was even more revolutionary because till then we had to write everything that was sent out was by mail. Right. So by the time you go in Krai Chabad or in London or in Hong Kong or wherever, we're gonna g- you get the sicha's gonna come three, four, five days later. Right. Minimum. Right. Um, and, um, here a fax is immediate. Right.

1:27:08 Speaker 1 And I remember then, 'cause we had heard that IBM and the bigger companies rejected the fax technology from the government, 'cause they said, "No one's gonna use fax." This is phased paper. They want real documents. Right. We'll FedEx it. Whatever they called it then. It wasn't FedEx, it was some other names. Um, and Canon became a company because Canon took the, the technology and turned it into the fax machine. They were unknown till then, so they were the first fax machines. For us, it was a godsend. Right. So suddenly, Motzei Shabbos. So suddenly now, we don't wait till the full transcript till Tuesday, Wednesday. Saturday night we started making a kitsur- Okay ... 'cause now we can send it out immediately, fax it. Now the problem was there was fax takes time, and there was no broadcast fax. Hold on one second. Talk about the kitsur a little bit. So the, the kitsur what- So by 1987- The kitsur didn't exist before? No. 'Cause there was no reason. For who we making a kitsur? By the time they get it- Till they get it, it's anyway taking, yeah, takes time. Right. So we didn't make a kitsur, we just did the full version. Now we started making what's called a teychen katze, a short summary, that was written up literally Saturday night- Yeah ... and we started faxing it by Sunday morning. And the Rebbe would check this? No, no, no. It was not edited. Right. And we would send it out, but it was

1:28:29 Speaker 1 a big thing. There was no broadcast fax. Fax was by phone, so you have a phone line. Right. But you wanna send it, 300 cities want it. Right. So we literally had an order. Right. We made it by population. Really? Wherever there was more Chabad, they got it first. Huh. Kraków Chabad, I think, was the number one. Right. And London may be number two. I don't remember now. Paris number three. I don't remember the whole order. And what we'd-- Someone-- But there was no memory in the fax machine, so you had to, someone had to sit and feed it into the fax machine. Right, right, right. And then- I'm old enough to remember that, yeah ... and after Kraków Chabad came the next city and the next. By Sunday night everybody got it. Hmm. So, but it was really, it was an innovation because it was better than... Up till then, if you want to know what the Rebbe said and you were in Philadelphia or in Los Angeles, uh, only way by phone, and how much are you gonna get by phone? Right. Then within that year, broadcast fax began, which meant you put in a document and now it can go to, you don't have to re-feed it every time. Then we got ourselves many phone lines, so simultaneously we could send to 10 places. Right. And then the demand came for tr- for translations, 'cause they said in Brazil, "Hey, we want it in Portuguese," and in Argentina in Spanish. Right. And

1:29:40 Speaker 1 Ru- and, and, uh, Russia, Russian, and Italian. There was a point we were probably doing it in 15 languages. Hmm. Persian. Persian. I remember Persian. Bochurim from all these countries were sitting in our office, literally lined up, the Persian department- ... the Italian department, every language you, you name it. So they were taking the summary that was made in Hebrew or Yiddish, translating it, and then faxing it to their respective countries. How long was the summary? Pretty good, huh? Interesting. Yeah, yeah. How long was the summary? Well, de- depending on how long the farbrengen was. Uh, six, seven, eight pages. Instead of 30 pages. Yeah, yeah. So- It didn't have footnotes, you know. It wasn't- So it wasn't a one-page, it wasn't a one-page summary. Later we turned it into one page. One second. The evolution takes time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, millions of years. Here we did it very short time. Right. So now the faxes are going all over the place. Great. Remember, there's no yet, no internet, no website. There's none of that yet. Right. Nonexistent. Right. Um, the faxes got better and better, and that was a great time. I remember that period. That's when I got to know Yanky Tauber and, and Ruvi Nu and Mendel Herschen, Mendy Herschen, and Yudi Shemtov. They were all bochurim writing in, in Eng- They started doing it in English. Uh. 'Cause there was a demand for English. It was, uh, it was Leb диким freylekhs, as they say. It was really exciting.

1:31:03 Speaker 1 I got married in 1983, so I feel very good about it 'cause I was, like, spearheading it. I didn't do the work, but we- Th- this was already, what, 1987 you said? '86? Now we're talking '87, '88. That's when the, the f- the height, heyday of faxes and- Uh-huh ... and things were really, like, cracking away. Right. Like, I'm telling you, it was, it was, it was mamish gevaltik times. Right. We were like a whole opera- I mean, it was like as soon as Shabbos ended, everything went into motion. They would come here, all these bochurim. We'd have chazara in my house. Oh, right here? Right here in this house. Yeah, exactly. And Rabiel would have chazara, and then later we'd meet after Shabbos, but we did it here and everyone-- As soon as Shabbos ended, everyone to their respective machines. What chazara? You were doing chazara for the, for the summary? For... Yeah, but, but the guys that were writing wanted to be in chazara. They wanted to, you know- So you did the whole chazara, and then they would write a summary. Yeah. After Shabbos f- um, they would write a summary. It was usually based on one summary done by, in Hebrew or Yiddish. I personally began working on the long version that would go, that the Rebbe later would edit. I see. In '87, the Rebbe started editing all the farbrengens almost. Right. Anyway, things got better and better, and then suddenly a new, new innovation. It was called a BBS,

1:32:19 Speaker 1 a b- electronic bulletin board system. So around '89. Right. Yosef Yitzchok Kazen- Right ... founder of chabad.org, there was no chabad.org yet- Right ... comes to me and said to me, "You know, you're doing these summaries. I have a new way to distribute it, not through fax. It's almost, you take the document, you scan it into a computer." Right. Um, and then you put it up. It's like an electronic bulletin board. Then people call, with a number they call in, and they can retrieve it. I said, "Sure. What's the question? For sure." We gave him a desk in our office. Every Sunday he would take the English version, put it in. I remember he's telling me, "This guy from Alaska just downloaded it." Right.

1:33:09 Speaker 1 This is completely new. We didn't even know the w- I don't even know if the word download was used. Right. It accessed it. I don't, uh, I still don't know to this day how it worked. Right. But something was electronic bulletin board called BBS, and that was '89, '90, '91, and he was so excited, I remember. '92. '92, then was the early, early stages of web started. But '94 is when the internet became what it is, what we know of today. Right. Interestingly, the year of Gimmel Tammuz. Huh. Tammuz that year, '94. I know, I know 'cause I remember vividly. So in '94, it was very primitive websites. Um, remember, there was no Google. There was no... It was Microsoft basically. Right. And just, I wrote my book, "Toward a Meaningful Life" in '95, in '94, and published in '95. Kazin tells me, "You have an email address in there." I remember this. I said, "No. What's an email address?" He said, "Electronic mail." "Electronic, what is that?" He says, "Mail that goes electronically." So I said, "I have enough problems. What are you t- now hacking me and cup about?" He says, "You have to put in an email address." Right. And I honestly did not know why or what or when. Can you imagine? Right. Um, I said, "Okay, you say so." So I remember he, he said to me, "What's the name of your book?" I said, "Toward a Meaningful Life: The Wisdom of the Rebbe." So he said, "What the names?"

1:34:40 Speaker 1 I said, "Wisdom Rebbe." Talk about bittle. Wisdom Rebbe. I should've did Meaningful Life. Right. But what if I, if I had some foresight. Wisdom Rebbe is the wisdom of the Rebbe, so till this day, we have to still use Wisdom Rebbe because in the book is, the original book is published Wisdom Rebbe at AOL. Right. And I said, "How do you get an email address?" He said, "There's three companies: AOL, Prodigy, and the CompuServe." Those are the three. I, I thought Prodigy would take off, so I said, "Let's do Prodigy." He says, "Do AOL." 'Cause AOL, I saw America Online, I don't know, it's, I, I didn't like the name. This is nonsense, but I'm just telling you. Right. So- And listen, I feel like, um, a fossil, you know? That's all right. Anyway, and we got the email address, and we didn't even begin using it. And then the modems, you know, if you had a dial-up modem, you remember? Yeah, of course. Yeah. It's like- Yeah, yeah. And how long it took. You gotta put dial-up modem, and we connected to our computers. Now we're talking here 1995. It's already after Gimmel Tammuz, and we built a website, and, uh- But, but the short, the short synopsis of the farbrengen- I'll explain. I, I- -was earlier, right? Yeah, yeah. But I wanna add a few points since you asked. The Rebbe, of course, knew that we were doing all this. We would report to him how many cities got the faxes. I noticed

1:36:03 Speaker 1 that the Rebbe started... Oh, one second. Let, let me go back a moment. Then there was, because of the demand that we had now new distribution methods, so we decided to make a one-page summary of the farbrengen instead of eight pages. When was this? '89 probably. Mm-hmm. And then I came up with even a better. I said, "Okay, one-page summary, but then we need the Rebbe's heiros, directives, like, you know, mift- miftzamata, whatever it may be." And we made, so we made nekudos v'heiros. We just had bullet points, so it was really, you know, for the completely low attention span. Right. Right. And I sent, we sent it into the Rebbe, and the Rebbe edited one of them, and then I noticed that after a few weeks, the Rebbe started speaking more heiros- Hmm ...for the world. Really? 'Cause till then, the Rebbe's farbrengens, he knew was being heard here, except the big things, the, the Rebbe... But I saw clearly that he was aware. I ca- And listen, I can't vouch and say for sure. Right. But I just sensed because I saw the heiros, he, he knew they're getting out there. Right. So he said more, like things that, like, you know, things like the, the children. I remember children should be c-c-c, should be, uh, one of the, for before shvus, gather all the children by the Kneset HaGedolah. Right. So usually these type of heiros he would speak in weekdays. Right. They heard it in Israel, but not Shabbos. Right. Here

1:37:27 Speaker 1 he started saying on Shabbos heiros- Right ...that without these technologies would never have reached them for 10 days. Right. I mean, by phone perhaps. So I, I felt... I can't say it fundamentally changed the structure of a farbrengen, but it definitely gave the Rebbe, I feel, he, like, like he knew that he has more reach. And I think the Rebbe added certain things more, you know, knowing that it's gonna reach globally. And that is, uh... So I'm very, I, I'm very proud to say that we used technology mamish for what it was created, you know? Well- In order to help speed up and, and also the efficiency of the, of the dissemination. Yeah, but I, I, that's, uh, that's specifically what I wanted to ask you about, about the speed. Because, you know, you, you mentioned earlier, um, about how people used to wait two weeks to get the farbrengen or 10 days till they got the, the, you know, the whole printout of the farbrengen, and by then already they're up to the next farbrengen, and then there's this fax machine, so now they can get a, a short, um, or a shorter, uh, synopsis right away. You know, the c- in, in, in some ways m- you know, the q- there's a question here of the chicken and egg question, right? Did people need to hear what was going on and the technology satisfied that need, or was the fact that it was available what made them... The fact that there's this technology,

1:38:57 Speaker 1 suddenly we need to know what, what the Rebbe's saying now. But whether, uh, maybe in a way that doesn't make a difference. I, I think that the, the, the practical change happens either way, which is there's suddenly a sense of needing to feel up to date with what the Rebbe's saying today. I hear you. And, and in many ways, you know, you talk about the cha- There's always the upside of technology, but there's, like you said at the beginning of the conversation, the challenges of technology. Like, the fact that people needed to hear the Rebbe's farbrengen of today right now, doesn't that take something timeless and make it very timely? Doesn't that, uh, create this kind of sense of needing to be up to date when in many ways you'll never be up to date? That's the whole point of something that the Rebbe's saying, that it's, it's never about the date, and you'll never catch the date anyway, right? Doesn't- Look, uh, the, remember, our audience at the time was mostly loyalists. Right. People who were interested in the Rebbe's words, and we, besides for the translations, was usually written in Yiddish or Hebrew. So it, it, so people wanted to know what the Rebbe said, so immediately that te- so, so these technologies allowed them to get it faster.

1:40:15 Speaker 1 You're asking whether there are people who became more interested because of the technology. Well, I will say this, I, I'm assuming that once, especially like today, once the technology made it available, there were new people that probably hadn't heard about it before. Right. But in our time, it was really mostly for the insiders, just getting it quicker, to be honest. But that's my question, because like, you know the famous line, uh, what was his name? McLuhan, that the medium is the message. Right. Right. Right? The farbrengen, the speedy delivery of the farbrengen in many ways becomes the message, no? Or becomes a farbrengen. Uh, put aside the question of if the Rebbe spoke differently at a farbrengen because of it, I think that's already gonna end up being more speculative one way or another. But the fact is that there became a sense of urgency, "I need to know what the Rebbe said now." And that, in many ways, you know, that medium becomes the message. There's a, there's a need to be up to date, and that flies in the face of what we were discussing all this time before of, of individuality, of reflection, of, of, of working on something and, and developing it. If you're constantly, if you're constantly needing to catch up with a man who is, and a Rebbe who is, you're never gonna catch up to him. It's like, you know, it's like trying to constantly chase down the world's fastest man. How, like, how does that, how does

1:41:46 Speaker 1 that work? I, I never thought of it this way, to be honest. Um, my assumption is that th- there were always those that wanted to know everything the Rebbe said immediately as fast as possible. Right. But they're a minority. My assumption is that the majority of Chabad that was receiving this material, each one at their pace. You know, for some people it was, they needed to know in general what the Rebbe is saying. I think for the real hardcore, that was the, yeah, now they were, it's like for us here in New York, we were right here, and we had to constantly be listening and remembering and so on. But I don't know how many people that would have affected that way. It's interesting question, I never really thought of it, to be honest. Hmm. I don't have, uh, much to say. I'm not sure. I, I, let's put it this way, nothing comes to mind that was a radical or a shift because of it in that sense. The only thing was really that you could reach a lot more people and very quickly. In other words, today, for example, it's a whole new reality. Right. 'Cause even then, let's be honest, with fax and even, it was still a fax. It wasn't a, a phone in your pocket. Yeah, a phone, exactly, and it was not even a computer on your desktop. Right, right. It was a fax, a p- paper. Right. You know? You still had to read it. Yeah. You still

1:43:02 Speaker 1 had to read it. Yeah, yeah. It, it was not a podcast you could listen to. No, no, look, I, I'm not trying to use this as a way to pinpoint exactly when something changed. You don't wanna put too much weight on something that, like you said, was in many ways just a natural course of events. But I think it's, to me, this is why I was so interested about it the first time you mentioned it to me months ago, is that, you know, you, you, w- we've been speaking this whole time where it does seem like there's this, there's this intention from the Rebbeim and from, you know, from Chassidus that people should become more, um, fully themselves, full, full-fledged Chassidim. And, you know, then you wonder, "Well, what happened?" It would seem to me like so, you know, this kind of- Well, you know, let me, maybe I should say this ... Th- does that, does that at all, does that at all make sense to you? The- No, no, I hear you. You know, there's was an expression they used, maybe it's still relevant with computers, "Junk in, junk out." Okay? I think Chassidim, what they were, they still remained. Those that learned the Sikha properly in 1960- Right ... now just learned it quicker, and they learned it more pre-music. People who are more Makivdik, the computers didn't, you know, technology didn't change anything. Right. So my point is, I don't see technology having changed, just like I don't think technology changed

1:44:24 Speaker 1 relationships. Either you're, you're a healthy emotional person in a good marriage or you're not. Right. And technology is not gonna do that for you. Right. If you're good, then technology will help you connect with your loved ones. I have not seen technology make a relationship work. Right. If anything, the opposite. Right. So I think the same idea here. I think Chassidim, um, maybe technology actually made people more Makivdik because, you know, now it's in my pocket, and I have it. It's just like picture, you know, it creates a lot more superficiality to it. Right. But for someone who's a pre-music person, I think, you know, like- It's also an illusion of closeness, right? It's an illusion of- Yeah. No, but I do know Shluchim and Chassidim, and I'm sure you know that they got something by fax or computer at the, from the Rebbe. Like now, video comes to you. Right. And you're, uh, you know, you're really living with the Rebbe. There's no question- Right ... this is access. Access is, is unbelievable. Right. Um, but I, I don't know if that technology, like you talk about the message being the medium. I don't know if the medium has made, uh, more Chassidim. Uh, I think if you are a person who's conducive and ready for it, the technology is a tremendous asset. That's how I would, I would say it. And for those that not, you have, you have more superficial. You know, there's a, I'll share this. In Tosafot Yud, after the

1:45:39 Speaker 1 Rebbe became, uh, he wasn't officially Rebbe yet. He said in a farbrengen that "I had a group of college students who came to see me." It's a funny line. "And they asked me a lot of questions, and they took notes," you know, as college students would. Right. "Then the last question was they asked me, 'What is a Rebbe?'" Right. "So I, uh, so I tried my best," the Rebbe said, "to explain what a Rebbe is, and they were jotting notes." He says, "When they left the room, I was thinking to myself, 'Nu, is der hoben zi a papierene Rebbe.'" They have a paper Rebbe, basically. Huh. Meaning a Rebbe, um, you know, not a papirner Rebbe. So I think there's a, there's a, a technology Rebbe, you know, that people have chassidus and the Rebbe through technology can also dilute it- Right ... if you're asking me. Um, but, um, by the end of the day, look, I know from my own work, there are people today through technology are, are, have become chassidim. Right. There's no question about it 'cause they, they hear something and awakens, it ignites something. You know, like the Rebbe said about radio. Radio, even if someone doesn't wanna open their door for you to enter- It's still there ... but the airwaves are getting in. Right. So in that sense, it is a revolution. Look, I'm not trying to, I'm not, I'm not trying to say that-- I'm not trying to be, uh, anti-technology or say it would've been

1:46:54 Speaker 1 better without it. I, I think in many ways it just goes back to the original point you were discussing, and that is that there is a, there is like the... What, what I would, what I would say like was, uh, like the most, um, interesting point that you made at the beginning was a, a reminder that yes, the Rebbe embraced technology, and yes, Chabad embraced technology in many ways ahead of others. But it was never because there wasn't a profound awareness of the, of the contradictions there and the tensions there. Right. Like, it's, it's not, it's not so m- like they say in Yiddish, «movan meilav» this is a poshet, right? There is something that can be lost, and very often is lost with the embracing of technology, right? There is something, you know, beautiful gain, let's say, with a sense of a global community, with everybody getting the instant update of a Tsen Tsendi, but in many ways that will cost a person his or her individuality, right? There's a cost there. That doesn't mean that the cost isn't worth it, but there's a cost there. And, and, and what, what that tells me is not that therefore it's bad. What that tells me is that that's something worth thinking about and worth deci-- thinking like, how much is it costing me? How much is this cost worth it for me? Yep. Right? And, and how do I negotiate that cost-benefit analysis? And again, going back to the paradox of the Rebbe, interestingly, he

1:48:22 Speaker 1 did not have a fax machine in his office. He didn't have a computer. Right. He didn't have any of that. And, uh, even a telephone, the Rebbe said officially, "I don't speak on telephone." He said a number of times. He didn't even speak. I mean, we know he spoke. Right. But it was not his... I found that fascinating. Here's the man that's so ad- so advocating use of technology- Right ... but he himself would not use it. Now, the mas- the secretariat actually for fax machines, I know personally, tremendously. Uh, allowed people, thousands of people to write letters through fax. Right. And they gave the faxes to the Rebbe. But the Rebbe was asked about technology. He, um, he would not, like, you know, should he, should we get a, even a letter opener, you know, this letter opener story. Right. Did Zalman Garrari wanted to buy him one? Yeah. They wanted to- That, that- And they bought him one 'cause they thought- Oh, the electric. The- Yeah ... this is a story. Did you tell me this story? I'm sorry. Maybe. I don't know. The, the electric letter opener. Right. Just to save time, it's terrible. Right. And, and they're just sitting there, and the, and Rebbe wouldn't use it. So then they thought maybe 'cause it's very noisy. Right. So they spent thousands of dollars, and they bought a silent letter opener. Okay. Also not. So finally they asked the Rebbe why was the Rebbe not using it? It can save him a

1:49:28 Speaker 1 lot of time. He says, "A person writes a letter to me and seals the envelope with his blood, sweat, and tears, and I'm gonna open it with a machine." In other words, by the Rebbe, the letter was like a life. Right. It's like a baby. I'm not opening- Right ... you know, he's not using the electric. I'm not saying that's the reason he didn't use technology. I think there was... I, I must say, I think the Rebbe had an element of that purity. Just Torah is Emes from Hashem, and Moshe Rabbeinu does not need a fax machine. Not y- All the, all my subjects, everyone else use it, use it well, spread it all over the place. I think it goes back to that. I mean, it's an interesting discussion. It's a fascinating discussion. It's a fascinating discussion, and it's not one with a clear answer, but I think that's the point. I think the point is that, you know, when you, when you look at these kind of historical trends and, and, and, and, and, and, and incidents, you will find, you will find these tensions, you'll find these contradictions and- Let's say Moshe Rabbeinu came down from Har Sinai, and there was Twitter or X, whatever it's called. A video. And Facebook and YouTube. It would destroy it, in my opinion. Would he like say, "Okay. Before I talk to the people, let me get the cameras in place." Yeah. "Let's call, uh, Nancy Afsin over- Yeah. ... and we'll do a, a

1:50:46 Speaker 1 pre-podcast." Yeah. We'll do a pre, a pre, a pre-light they call it. We'll set up the lighting. And not because of irreverence. I just... I don't know. There's something just like... Uh, let me put it this way. When a baby is born, a mother cradles her child. Right. I don't think the mother would wanna have a, a machine. I mean, I'm not talking about for health reasons now. Like, you know, the machine will help me cradle. You know, you just, there's a certain- No, I mean, I- I guess there's something at the end of the day about a natural, uh- When a baby's born, they recommend that skin-to-skin, right? Yeah. And then later on you put on clothes, and then later on you- Okay. But one day I think AI could create an artificial skin-to-skin experience, you know? Yeah. Look, I mean, that's already a whole different conversation of, you know, d- but, but like- But no, it's great conversation. I agree. No, I'm saying the same- That's why I told you, I always found this paradox that the most public man in his own this, and, and, and a man that, that didn't change his shoes. Right. Because, you know, whatever, you know, things like, like l- sitting in a room where you go into the room, you think, you know, it's like, uh, like Rabbi Chadikov said, a bunker. Right. It's a bunker. The Rebbe's office. Yeah. The Rebbe's office. Yeah. Right. Right. No, it's, it's a f- it's a fa- it's a

1:51:52 Speaker 1 fascinating- Still getting $85 a week. Right. Right. Look, they, they ult- ultimately, in many ways, and to wrap it up, in many ways, these contradictions only lead us back to the need to resolve it for ourselves, right? 'Cause a contradiction by definition means that there isn't a clear-cut answer that everyone can buy into. I get it. Yeah. You, you'll take the contradiction one way, I'll take it a different way. Someone listening will say I'm bachlal off my rocker, and it's not, it's not even a contradiction, or you completely messed up the contradiction, and that's fine. At the end of the day, that's what contradictions do. They, they, they, they imply that there's something larger here that's, that's going on that doesn't fit into our regular- Yes ... regular conceptions of it, and it's up to each and every person to, to make something out of that in a way that, that, that, that, that, that serves the purpose properly. Totally agree. All right. On that note, thank you very much for this. This has been fascinating. Uh, you know, I, I, I can't say that I remember everything you said, but thankfully I have this being recorded and, uh- And, and I'll tell you the truth, I have no clue where this is going. You know- I- I had no, uh, pre-script, you know? As, as long as there's no charata at this point. No, God forbid. Gevaldi. Contrary. All right. Thank you very much. A kasher- Contrary, I think this is gevaldi. Yeah. Thank

1:53:14 Speaker 1 you. You're very welcome. I appreciate it. Have a good time. Kasher v'chag sameach Pesach to you. Hatzlacha in your work. Kasher v'chag sameach. And, uh, likewise, hatzlacha to you, and, uh, I'm sure we'll meet again. Absolutely. Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album "Repentance Doors" by Oren Dror and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.