Ep. 24 // "Lubavitch Sense of Worthiness" w/ R' Chaim Itche Drizin

00:00 Speaker 1 When you say «Va'ahavta es Hashem Elokecha» you have to be somebody to love God. You-- In order to have «Es Kapha v'es Apka» you have to be there in order to be able to do that. But if you're not even there in the first place, there's nobody home, so to speak. What I struggle many times with young men and young women is that they get a sense of self. In other words, that they-- there's a worthiness.

00:32 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Alfsin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All right. I'm here. I'm already having a ton of fun. Um, and we're- We're starting now, but, uh, you know, uh, we're starting now for the podcast, but, uh, been here for a few minutes and already developed a very nice rapport with my guest, Rabbi?

01:07 Speaker 1 Chaim Micho Drizin.

01:08 Speaker 2 Chaim Micho Drizin.

01:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:09 Speaker 2 Who's also a rabbi, technically.

01:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:12 Speaker 2 Chaim Micho Drizin, a pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much for agreeing to come on this podcast and to, uh, to listen to the voice that said to do it.

01:22 Speaker 1 Yes, thank you-

01:22 Speaker 2 Appreciate it

01:23 Speaker 1 ... for having me, and, uh, I'm looking forward.

01:26 Speaker 2 All right. So just don't touch this.

01:27 Speaker 1 Oh, sorry.

01:27 Speaker 2 You can't hear it? No, you can hear it, but I, but I can.

01:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, I understand.

01:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, uh, we've been speaking for a few minutes. There are so many things I wanted to talk to you about. I have a feeling we're not gonna get to everything, so, um, but l-let's start with, um, let's start with, with the beginning. Talk a little bit about, um, your family, where you come from. Um, your father was, of course, Rabbi Avraham Ayar, um, who, I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to make this about myself but, uh, certainly a family relation there from both sides. Uh one, one was a little bit more complicated, but, but my grandfather Alfsin was a, was a, was a very deep mushpa of your father and, um, he lived by his house for a while as well.

02:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

02:22 Speaker 2 So, uh-

02:23 Speaker 1 So you know the history. Okay.

02:24 Speaker 2 I know a little bit of the history. Frankly, I don't know enough about the history, and I've certainly never spoken to any of his children. Most of them are much older.

02:32 Speaker 1 Right.

02:32 Speaker 2 So I'd love to hear, you know, I'd love to, love to have you talk a little bit about your parents and your growing up.

02:41 Speaker 1 So I'm not even sure where to start. Um, my... Let's start at the end. When, when we were sitting shiva for my father, I said to my brothers, uh, that our father, in his, uh, spiritual journey, left us in the dust. I don't know if all of you, but it definitely left me in the dust. Uh, I can identify maybe some of my other brothers that were also left in the dust, so to speak, but maybe one not so much. Uh, my brother Mendel, I think, was influenced by, uh, by, uh, Reb Sholom Chaim in, in the early years in Lud, then he was an oved, then he was, you know, he was a kana in Seven seventy. So that reached my father's, uh, hopes and aspirations about, uh, what he would like his children to be. But so having said that, I, in my own experience as a child, I was like not present to that. I was told things like that, that, you know, there was like hints to expectations from me, but I was-- You've learnt a new word today. I was disassociated from that. I was like not connecting to what that meant and, uh, unable to really go on that journey because my-- the parenting, my father was just a dugma chaya. He didn't spend time that I can remember sitting with me and looking me in the eye and talking to me about what he hoped for me and maybe what he would like to teach me. It was,

04:39 Speaker 1 it was, uh-- He was busy. He was, uh, he was an oved. He davened, uh, every day three hours, and on Shabbos he davened seven hours.

04:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

04:48 Speaker 1 You know, I never saw him on Shabbos afternoon. I never had the meal with him. Um-

04:54 Speaker 2 You were the youngest also?

04:55 Speaker 1 I'm the youngest.

04:56 Speaker 2 The youngest.

04:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. Youngest of 10. I was the only one born in Israel. All my other siblings were Russian-born.

05:04 Speaker 2 So you're al- you were already born on the other side of the-

05:06 Speaker 1 The other side. So it's like a different, a different, uh-

05:09 Speaker 2 Huh

05:10 Speaker 1 ... different, uh, upbringing, a different s- mindset. Um-

05:16 Speaker 2 Did that disassociate you from your siblings as well, that divide of Israel/Russia?

05:22 Speaker 1 You know, I mean, you could say that. I, I didn't identify with them. I mean, when I left, for example, when I left Crown Heights to San Francisco, I was like an outsider to them, even though I left to do the work that Lubavitch stood for, but at the same time, I abandoned them.

05:43 Speaker 2 Huh. Interesting.

05:45 Speaker 1 You know, they were all, they were all Crown Heightsers and then living, you know, uh, sitting by every Shabbos by a fabringen and-

05:54 Speaker 2 Gezhe Lubavitch

05:55 Speaker 1 ... gezhe Lubavitch, whatever that means. Uh-

05:58 Speaker 2 We, we did that in a different episode.

06:02 Speaker 1 But so I, I, I was, and I lived away from them. I always lived away from Crown Heights. I mean, I w- obviously I came to the Rebbe, I was there, uh, but I didn't live with them in the way they did.

06:14 Speaker 2 So your father, when you grew up, your father and your, your mother, they lived in Eretz Israel?

06:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:19 Speaker 2 So you grew up in Eretz Israel?

06:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, till I was 11.

06:22 Speaker 2 And then you moved to America?

06:23 Speaker 1 Then I m- moved to America. Um, so my, my first 11 years, looking back, so going back, my father had hopes for me. He didn't spend time with the older ones, but this is his baby, and he's gonna really take time to connect with him or whatever he hoped for.

06:43 Speaker 2 Right.

06:44 Speaker 1 It just didn't happen.

06:45 Speaker 2 Now that he was done with the KGB, it was time to do some parenting.

06:49 Speaker 1 But that didn't happen.

06:49 Speaker 2 Didn't happen.

06:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, it, it just didn't happen. I mean, I think his intentions were good, but I don't remember anything, no focused parenting from either one.

07:02 Speaker 2 Right. None of it.

07:03 Speaker 1 Meaning sitting down with me so that I feel, uh, a connection or a special part of who I am. It was just on automatic pilot.

07:17 Speaker 2 Was that just how things used to be in, in those days? Where kind of the whole, like, chinuch was kind of autopilot?

07:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that that could be said. I think it's today in many families the same way.

07:30 Speaker 2 Right.

07:31 Speaker 1 And so today we are, we are, we are, w- I mean, a lot of parents are, are waking up to the fact that they need to, to direct their education. I mean, the Rebbe talks about it in, in Hayom Yom, half an hour every day.

07:49 Speaker 2 So the Rebbe Rashab, right?

07:50 Speaker 1 Right, but I'm just saying the Rebbe-

07:51 Speaker 2 Yeah

07:51 Speaker 1 ... brought, the Rebbe who, who wrote the, uh, Hayom Yom.

07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

07:54 Speaker 1 The Rebbe wrote it.

07:55 Speaker 2 Right, right, right.

07:55 Speaker 1 But I'm just saying that, uh, that you need to spend a half hour a d- half an hour a day thinking about your kids.

08:02 Speaker 2 Right.

08:03 Speaker 1 I mean, that's like being totally focused on them.

08:08 Speaker 2 So it's very interesting 'cause in a way what you're pointing to, at least for me, is already probably one of the earliest instances of this kind of emerging divide between the Old World and the New World. 'Cause I don't, like, like you said, all your older siblings were kind of all born on the other side of the fence, you know? I don't know how old all of them were when they, when they emigrated, but you know, figuratively at least, they're all like Russian born or, or pre-Israel born. Did they go-- They didn't go straight from Russia to Israel, did they? Through France?

08:41 Speaker 1 Through-

08:42 Speaker 2 Pocking?

08:42 Speaker 1 No, through Pocking, yeah.

08:43 Speaker 2 Through Pocking. Okay.

08:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:43 Speaker 2 With DP camps, you know? It, it was the Old World that they left behind them. Nobody ever went back to the DP camps, thank God. Um, you know, so there, there's that divide, and you're probably one of the earliest instances of it, you know? Uh, also with this towering figure of a man who's your father. I mean, I, I don't know if you wanna describe him at all. I mean, he, he... 'Cause for, I mean, for people that haven't heard about him, he, he was... But describe a little bit about what you knew about him or how did you see him? Like, you're, so you've described him as being a little bit aloof or a little bit removed. Uh, you know, the, the, that father who davens babatha and like just living his life very, uh, I don't think you said selfishly, but just, just doing his thing.

09:29 Speaker 1 Right. Silishly.

09:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:31 Speaker 1 But, uh, but about, you know, he was a farbrengen.

09:35 Speaker 2 Right.

09:36 Speaker 1 So that he did do. I remember as a child, going back to what, how I looked at my father, he, every farbrengen that he went to in Israel, whether it was to Jerusalem or to Tel Aviv, every yemei depagra, he was, he was the center of that little farbrengen that he went to. So he would schlep me along.

09:56 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:57 Speaker 1 But I would be there sleeping, literally just by osmosis maybe picking up what he hoped I would pick up.

10:05 Speaker 2 Right.

10:06 Speaker 1 Um-

10:06 Speaker 2 But did you take pride in, in this father? Did you know who he was? Did you know what he was, especially back in Russia? Like he was, he was a, he was... Like the KGB took him seriously in Russia-

10:17 Speaker 1 Right

10:17 Speaker 2 ... right?

10:18 Speaker 1 Right. Yes. He was, he was, he was a very big man in Russia. He was a, but so was he in Is- He was the same in Israel, meaning he was a mashpia, he was looked up to. He was, he was always the center of little farbrengens, that he was sitting there and, and, and, uh, and, and telling stories and, and the, the, and, uh, saying l'chaim with people. So he was a huge figure. Um, but to really say that I appreciated him, I didn't appreciate him only till much later in my life when I grew, when I matured, when I started understanding of who he really was.

11:00 Speaker 2 Hmm.

11:01 Speaker 1 Um, so tw- because it wasn't really th- there was no telling of that story while I was growing up of who he was.

11:11 Speaker 2 Really?

11:11 Speaker 1 He just lived it.

11:12 Speaker 2 Nobody ever told you from the side? I understand that he wouldn't tell you. It, it wouldn't have passed for him to talk about himself. But nobody ever told you about him?

11:21 Speaker 1 So the way it was told to me is, "W- what are you? Look, look who your father is."

11:29 Speaker 2 Mamish.

11:29 Speaker 1 The, the w- the, in other words, it was used as a form of I don't wanna use the word. It, it anyway, it was, it was, it was a way to beat up on me, so to speak.

11:42 Speaker 2 Contextualize. Contextualize.

11:45 Speaker 1 It was, it was, you know, a spas nisht.

11:48 Speaker 2 Right.

11:48 Speaker 1 From Mayor Sazon, you know? And, and that, that was very difficult, you know?

11:55 Speaker 2 I can imagine. I can imagine.

11:56 Speaker 1 And, uh, you know, I still get that till today, you know? "Oh, so w- w- how are you his grandson?" "Which, which, which brother are, which brother's son are you?"

12:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:09 Speaker 1 And when I say I'm, uh- I'm my brother. I, I am a brother. They said, "Oh, so your father was Rabbi Romayer?" That's like, uh... So that's also, you know, you don't fit. You don't fit the picture. I see. I see. So it was a burden in many ways to carry. I can imagine. I can imagine. So how did you-- So you, you just said that eventually you grew to appreciate him. Right. Describe that a little bit. So, so when I left to Really? In other words, the fact that I became a shliach was huge to him. I didn't really appreciate it till maybe a couple of years into my shlichas, but it was like a, a, uh, a sense of pride to him that I-- that then later people described to me how he would tell them about, you know, "My son, my son is a shliach in Berkeley." You know, that was his-- So I've heard that from others. He'd never tell it to me, but I can see his eyes light up. Oh. I can see his-- When he would ask me, "Was

18:13 Speaker 2 It's, it-- on some level, the, that older generation, your father's generation, maybe even slightly younger, so, you know, the people that basically were parents to this new generation growing up in America, if they were somewhat befuddled or unsure of what it really meant to bring up kids in this new world, and like, you know, what's it gonna look like? You know, on one hand, we expect them to kind of just follow the ways of the past, but clearly it's not like that anymore. There are a lot of things that are different. We don't really understand this world. Like people talk today all the time about how the ch- the, the pace of change is so rapid, like it's never been this way. And I, and I ask, and I, I ask, "Well, wait a second. Is it m- more rapid today?" Like from point A to point... Like from me growing up to my kids growing up, is that a bigger change than, say, your father growing up to you growing up? Like on two sides of, of, of, of essentially history where, you know, pre- pre-war, post-war, communist Russia, you know, free America. Um, you know, a- and I wonder if they were just, they were just unsure of what it was gonna look like, which kind of would explain why when you went on shlichus, your father, "Okay, now I got it. Okay, that's, that's what it's gonna look like," you know. A- and that would also explain, just to finish, that would

19:35 Speaker 2 also explain why in a way, and I'm, I'm just presenting a counterargument or, or a counterpoint why the Lubavitch was so good so quickly at explaining things to the outside world, but took forever to figure out how to talk to their kids. Because the outside world was America. Okay, fine, like we're gonna talk to them as Americans, but we cannot talk to our kids as Americans. That's ridiculous. We're gonna talk to them as Russians. But it's like uh, uh, you see what I'm saying?

20:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's a very interesting point. So as you're saying this, I'm going back to a, an experience that I had. My father would come to visit me in Berkeley.

20:16 Speaker 2 In Berkeley.

20:17 Speaker 1 And on campus.

20:19 Speaker 2 Right.

20:20 Speaker 1 And we had a, we had a very active Chabad house.

20:23 Speaker 2 I di- I di- I didn't ask you. You went out to Berkeley?

20:25 Speaker 1 Yes.

20:25 Speaker 2 So you didn't, what-

20:26 Speaker 1 I, I, I w- I first went out to San Francisco, was there for a year. That's a story of its own. Then I moved to Berkeley. I was Chabad director of Northern California from the city of Berkeley.

20:36 Speaker 2 So you were, you were mainly on campus.

20:38 Speaker 1 On campus.

20:39 Speaker 2 Right.

20:39 Speaker 1 But, you know, through the whole Northern California.

20:42 Speaker 2 Right.

20:43 Speaker 1 So, uh, at one point, my father would engage. My father was actually also a young thinker in many ways, meaning it was never about «A mol ikh zayt nig ven» was great. Uh, uh, in times past, it was fantastic. Now, you know, you read the Sidduras, he never talked about that.

21:04 Speaker 2 Really?

21:04 Speaker 1 Never did.

21:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

21:06 Speaker 1 So it, he was forward-thinking. So one day, I'm finding myself, he said to me, "I need you to translate for me. Um, this guy wants to talk to me. He's wants to ask me some questions." And this guy is telling me, "You, you mind just, I wanna ask your father a couple of questions." So I said yes, and, uh, and I would not do that as a rule. There was someone else who did that. But he said, my father said to me, «Er zok nit vos ir zok». "He's not saying what I'm saying. I need you to say what I'm saying. Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't misinterpret my words." So he knew enough English-

21:42 Speaker 2 Sure

21:42 Speaker 1 ... to get an understanding that what's being said was interpretive of what he was saying. So this young man said to him, um, "I put on tefillin once every month. Once every two months, I go on top of Mount Tamalpais. It's a beautiful scenery in Northern California."

22:02 Speaker 2 Sure.

22:02 Speaker 1 "And I have a godly experience I put on tefillin. I spent three, four hours singing, excited."

22:09 Speaker 2 Right.

22:09 Speaker 1 "Why do I need to do this every day?"

22:11 Speaker 2 Right.

22:11 Speaker 1 "W- what?" It's like, uh, it's like, "When I'm inspired, I get close to God. Why do it on a, on a rote basis?"

22:19 Speaker 2 Right.

22:19 Speaker 1 "It becomes, you know, «einsha nasema lemada» you know, the, like a rote that m- is meaningless." And he says, "I, I know. I've, I've, I've grown up in that, near that world, and I've seen them do it."

22:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:30 Speaker 1 "They don't really mean what they're doing. It's like a-"

22:32 Speaker 2 Right.

22:33 Speaker 1 So he said, so my father said to him, uh, "Freg im vos if, ask him, what, what is he, what is his, does he have a hobby?" So he says, "Yeah, I play piano." He said, "What are your hopes about playing piano?" He says, "Well, I used to have hopes of becoming a, a pianist." So my father asked him, "So how, how many hours a day would you have to practice in order for you to perform in wherever you dreamed of performing?"

23:03 Speaker 2 Sure.

23:04 Speaker 1 So he said, "Realistically, I would have to play maybe six to eight hours a day." "And so what difference would that make?" He, my father asked him. So he tr- he gave a whole explanation-

23:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

23:17 Speaker 1 ... about what it would take to practice, and then one day he can perform.

23:22 Speaker 2 Right.

23:23 Speaker 1 So he said, "It's the same thing."

23:26 Speaker 2 Right.

23:26 Speaker 1 "In order for you to do well at Mount Tamalpais, you have to do it every day to practice-

23:33 Speaker 2 Right

23:33 Speaker 1 ... so that then you can get to that place." And I remember this guy understood it, and I was thinking, "Oh my God, my father understood him better than I understood him." I'm not sure I would have gone in that direction.

23:46 Speaker 2 Right.

23:46 Speaker 1 He asked a good question.

23:47 Speaker 2 Right.

23:48 Speaker 1 So when I said earlier that I got to know my father in these conversations when he would suddenly be there not talking to me-

23:59 Speaker 2 Right

23:59 Speaker 1 ... because, uh, you just made that point. They weren't trained. They weren't, I don't know if the word is trained. They weren't used to speaking to their children in a way that would get them interested-

24:11 Speaker 2 Right

24:11 Speaker 1 ... get them, get them, uh, curious about what it is that they lived like. They just lived their lives.

24:17 Speaker 2 Right.

24:18 Speaker 1 But here's a guy sitting out there with long hair-

24:20 Speaker 2 Right

24:21 Speaker 1 ... and he's in, and my father is, is, is liking the work that I'm doing, so he wants to be part of it for a minute, and he-

24:28 Speaker 2 Right

24:28 Speaker 1 ... and he participated. And there were many-

24:30 Speaker 2 Right

24:31 Speaker 1 ... interactions that I had with him, with people outside like that, that I suddenly realized who he was.

24:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:40 Speaker 1 I had a very good friend. His name was Zev Paraman, and he had... I, I'm not gonna b- repeat that. He had a long, he'd written, he'd actually written about it, a long in-depth conversation with my father in Ivrit.

24:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:55 Speaker 1 So my father was in, in Lud. He taught the, the, the, the Sephardic world. He was, you know, he, he spoke «Loshn kodesh» you know, uh, «HaAdmor milubavitch, hisbador so inyan» you know, he spoke-

25:10 Speaker 2 Right

25:10 Speaker 1 ... you know, but he spoke it well. So this particular Zev Paraman was in 1948. He was a friend of mine. You know, another story. He's the one who introduced me to the guy who built the Menorah. So he's, he's a big part of my life of Northern California. But so he had a very long conversation, and I listened to it, and it was amazing to me-

25:31 Speaker 2 Right

25:31 Speaker 1 ... how he interacted with somebody outside-

25:34 Speaker 2 Right

25:34 Speaker 1 ... who was not... So that's when I would say as, as you're asking that question, very interesting, that's when I started looking at him, at my father, in a different way. I started getting him. I started understanding him-

25:47 Speaker 2 Fascinating

25:47 Speaker 1 ... which I never received from him.

25:49 Speaker 2 Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. You know, it, it's so interesting 'cause I, I have, I have heard, and, and I think probably experienced myself, but I've heard from others with similar experiences growing up on Shlichus a lot of times, like, you know, you learn with your father or... And like there'd be one way, like this is how we learn Tanya, for example. This is how I learned it in yeshiva, so I'm gonna teach it to you. And okay, like I'm a kid growing up in Hong Kong or some, you know, some other kid growing up in some suburb of America, and it's like, okay, I don't, I don't... It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't, doesn't, you know, doesn't click. But then you're at the Shabbos table, and like you said, that guy with the long hair or that outsider asks a question, and now your father basically is forced to dig deep and to think in, you know, in w- he cannot... He, he knows that he cannot just say it to him the way he was told it as a child, and so it's... And, and suddenly, you know, it makes sense. Um, yeah, so I, I feel... I mean, one way to look at it is like, and I think a lot of people feel this way. I don't feel this way about my childhood, I wanna be clear, but a lot of people feel this way where like, yeah, my father cared more about the other people than he cared about me. I, I feel like

27:03 Speaker 2 it's just... I don't f- I don't, I, I don't know that that has to be the explanation. I think an explanation can be that your father thought or a father thinks that for his kid, this is the right way to communicate this information. Um, but to do it in that kind of, you know, to even... Like if you came to your father and said, "I wanna daven on this mountaintop." "Father, you're nuts. You're nuts." Like, "What, what do you need this for? What are you, what are you, what are you a, a Hare Krishna?" Like, like became a Buddhist. Like, "This is not Yiddish guy. Get, like, get with the program." But this... So for him to even entertain the, the thought process is almost blasphemous. Like it's, it's like a, it's he's not doing proper Chinuch, right? Whereas this other guy, he knows that he can't do, he, he can't speak that way to him. And, and I'm not trying to dissect your father here. I, I think, I think it's so indicative of... It's so interesting to already see that, that gap of generations taking place there. Like the gap was not a gap of understanding. I think that's what you're pointing to now.

28:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:10 Speaker 2 It was not a gap of understanding. It was a gap of communication.

28:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:13 Speaker 2 It was a gap of words.

28:15 Speaker 1 So yeah, I feel very, um, I have a lot of empathy for guys who I speak to who are, who have parents my age or maybe two years older, and, uh, Shluchim or Chasidish in Galut, and who were having a difficult time po- you know, imparting what they were trying to teach to their children-

28:45 Speaker 2 Right

28:45 Speaker 1 ... and taught it in a way that was skewed and, and somehow these kids come out struggling-

28:54 Speaker 2 Right

28:54 Speaker 1 ... with either with Yiddishkeit or with, or with, with, uh, with Rebbe, with, with our Derech because it wasn't, it was... They, they may not have had the opportunity to, to have experienced what I experienced or what I just described or what you're saying, sitting at a Shabbos table and hearing the father actually explain it to a long hair. Because maybe that n- that never, uh, that was not, uh, available or they were already gone in yeshiva because they left when they were 11 years old and, and when it would've made sense to them and would've listened to their father explaining things, they weren't around anymore. Things like that. So I, I, I find a very, um, identifiable kind of relationship with many young men and women who grew up this way in our world, that I understand them. And, and that's actually in the work that I do. It makes them feel validated, and I can sort of help them go on a journey of, of, of, of, uh, of, uh, of health and of, of mental health or, or, or spiritual health, whichever they wanna go to. But that's, that particular experience that you just described, which means... I, I mean, I, I, I'm j- I'm, I'm gonna go, of course. I had an 11-year-old that once came to see me. His father brought him. I don't see 11-year-olds now, but those days I did in my early practice, and he told me a story, and he said, "Hmm, I'm just wondering." Uh,

30:34 Speaker 1 I, I don't want him to be identified. So he said to me, he said, "I'm one of, like, maybe seven kids, and Friday night I'm standing with my... My father's making Kiddush, and there's 30 people at the Shabbos table."

30:48 Speaker 2 Right.

30:48 Speaker 1 "And my 11-year-old s- my, my 8-year-old sister, I'm 11, my l- 8-year-old sister gives me a kick under the table." And he says to me, he said, "What am I supposed to do? What's an 11-year-old supposed to do when his 8-year-old sister kicks him under the table? What's his job?" And he says to him, "His job is to kick back. That's what we do. That's what 11-year-olds do."

31:09 Speaker 2 Right.

31:10 Speaker 1 And my father is in the middle of making kiddush, and his eyes are murdering me, like he's about to kill me. And he s- this kid tells me, he said, "If that's what Yiddishkeit is, I'm out of here."

31:23 Speaker 2 At 11 years old.

31:24 Speaker 1 At 11 years old, and he is out. In other words, this is 14 years ago, 15 years ago. He, he-- So this is the, the, the, um, the sometimes inability for parents to be able to connect to what Chassidus wants, what the Rebbe wanted, what we grew up with, the kind of caring and love and, and, and connection, and, and suddenly it's about them in front of f- 30 people. So, uh, what I'm saying is, so that's an 11-year-old, but y- then you have s- a kid that grew up with all of that all his life in an environment of shlichus, and it-- what I, what I call it sometimes, it's called, uh, you know, religious trauma. It's if you, if you in the process of, of interaction, it's, it's like, uh, um, you know, a therapist, a famous therapist describes he's sitting with a, with his, with his son, with his five-year-old, and the five-year-old in the middle of davening in front of people is falling asleep. So his immediate reaction is to give him a tzetzing cup-

32:38 Speaker 2 Hmm

32:38 Speaker 1 ... to, to, to wake him up, so to speak. But he, he holds him- he holds himself back because he thinks it's the wrong things to do. So that's already an evolved level of understanding of what's going on. So going back to your, to your generational differentiation between older generation and younger generation, the, my father's generation, actually my generation too, didn't have the sensitivity or the tools or the ability to really communicate in a way that would not be, uh, hurting in any way.

33:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

33:18 Speaker 1 Or they didn't have the words. They were just living their lives. Again, I don't-- My fa-

33:22 Speaker 2 But they had the words, 'cause they had the words for others.

33:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, but, but it, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't present itself.

33:30 Speaker 2 Right.

33:31 Speaker 1 So for my g- for... Let's go back to my father. My father went-- How often did he have the opportunity to speak to someone like that with a translator and, and express his ideas that were creative at the moment, right? So, but when he's looking at me, it's like you said earlier, "Vos macht zikh narish." You know, the, "Just daven. Daven vi a mensch. Vos, vos, ven krest in a fun di mamme tamme pays. Where are you going with this?"

33:57 Speaker 2 Right.

33:58 Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? So-

33:59 Speaker 2 Right

33:59 Speaker 1 ... so did he need to have those tools? No.

34:03 Speaker 2 Right.

34:03 Speaker 1 He didn't need it.

34:04 Speaker 2 Right.

34:04 Speaker 1 However, if you now put it into the, the, the 60-year-old father who has a, uh, 30-year-old or who had-

34:14 Speaker 2 Right

34:14 Speaker 1 ... at 40 had a 15-year-old or a 10-year-old, that needs to somehow open its door to be able to communicate in a way that... And I, I'm not sure it's there yet.

34:25 Speaker 2 No, I don't think it's there. I, I, I mean, I think the main reason it's not there, or it's certainly not there as much as, as much as, uh, as much as it should be, and, and, and you're not just speculating. Like, this is your, this is your practice.

34:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:39 Speaker 2 Like-

34:40 Speaker 1 I see it on a daily basis.

34:41 Speaker 2 Right. And we didn't say it, but you're, you're a therapist, right?

34:44 Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.

34:44 Speaker 2 And you see many people that, that, that are experiencing precisely what you're talking about here. You're not just, you're not just speculating about an issue. It's something that you see.

34:53 Speaker 1 Right.

34:55 Speaker 2 I, I, I, I would think, I would think that for it to change, people have to feel that this is not just, you know, "We had, we've had enough of this religious nonsense. It's time to get with the program. Like, let's kind of, you know, I, I... If I have to choose between being like my grandparents or, or raising healthy children, I'm gonna choose raise- raising healthy children." So it's in conflict, I'm gonna choose that one. Um, I think if that's, if it's gonna be presented as two kind of conflicting options, it's gonna be very slow to change because a lot of people are gonna feel guilty of choosing one over the other. Um, at the very best, they're gonna try to have it both ways, which is in conflict. But, I mean, you, you mentioned earlier about how the Rebbe brings in a yemayem about spending a half hour each day on Chinuch, and I, and I didn't mean to correct you by saying it's the Rebbeshav. I was just emphasizing your point that that wasn't the Rebbe. It was, it wasn't like some novel Derech Shvi thing. It's from the Rebbeshav.

35:53 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

35:54 Speaker 2 And now that you've been talking, I've also been thinking of how, like, one of the dominant themes of the Tzidkas Rebbe Sichas is the amount of time and patience his father had for him, right?

36:06 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

36:07 Speaker 2 Right. The, the idea that, like, the Tzidka Rebbe was just born... I mean, a Tzadik is born a Tzadik. I, on a spiritual level, I understand. But that he was, that there was no kind of dialogue or, or t- you know, that kind of the pains of child-rearing. Uh, the Tzidka Rebbe is the one that talks about it, not me. I mean, like, the, the, the back and forth with his father, and his father's disappointment, and his father's lessons, and how he- his, he's feeling bad about his father's disappointment all these years later. And it's like for so- I mean, that, that culture does not seem to have seeped into the broader Lubavitch of Russia. Uh, like many other things that w- it's a very interesting kind of thing to think about. Like, the Rebbeim are talking about all this attention and Chinuch. It could po- I mean, to be fair, the Chassidim were living, most of them were living in very, very hard situations, especially when the communists came. Like they, they, they were messed up, man. They-

37:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, so that-- but that's in Russia. The question is, so your, your, your... What you're pointing out is, is, is interesting because yes, you know, you have amazing lessons of the Rebbe Rashab teaching his-- the, the, the, the Rebbe the Zun-

37:26 Speaker 2 Right

37:26 Speaker 1 ... you know, how to share, how to, how to prepare to, to... You know, he told them, "I'll speak to you tomorrow" on how he's experiencing this-

37:35 Speaker 2 Right

37:35 Speaker 1 ... this, this, this, uh, this, this anticipation-

37:39 Speaker 2 Right

37:39 Speaker 1 ... of what my father's gonna tell me. And I, I have to tell you, I've used that in, in, in, in guiding some parents. I said, "You can't just arbitrarily walk over to a child and tell them what you want them to do. If you can do that, you know what? You and I tomorrow are, are gonna sit down, and we're gonna talk about it."

37:56 Speaker 2 Ah.

37:57 Speaker 1 And, and then there's an anticipation. You know, you learn, learn from the Rebbe. I'm talking about somebody who's, who's open to that particular way of thinking. But so-- But that's in Russia.

38:10 Speaker 2 Right.

38:10 Speaker 1 The question is, I am experiencing, as a therapist with, with parents who are my age or even younger, who are still guided by that, by that modality of-

38:25 Speaker 2 The harsh

38:26 Speaker 1 ... the harsh or inability to sort of let go of that old way of thinking.

38:31 Speaker 2 Right.

38:32 Speaker 1 And the-- I mean, some have succeeded in that. Some have done very well in being able to be present and, and, and listen and, and guide appropriately, so to speak, in, in-- to their children. You know-

38:45 Speaker 2 Right

38:45 Speaker 1 ... emulating what the Friediker Rebbe experienced with his father to some extent, but a lot of them are not. And that's, I think, you know, the, the ultimate result of what's happening. You talked about the, the cognitive dissonance of, of, of, of from Hasidishkeit to the world. I'm saying that even in the first place-

39:07 Speaker 2 Right

39:07 Speaker 1 ... to connect with that Hasidishkeit is sometimes difficult for a lot of young men-

39:12 Speaker 2 For sure

39:13 Speaker 1 ... and women.

39:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I, I brought up that, I brought up the F-Friediker, Friediker Rebbe and Rebbe Shab to point out that we don't have to see it as a conflict. We don't have to see it as like, "Oh, this is an Americanish shtick."

39:26 Speaker 1 Right.

39:27 Speaker 2 You have to talk to your kids, or you have to, you have to read bedtime stories to your kid for an hour, so now it's another, another, another American suburban shtick that you're trying. No, that's... This, this has always been Yiddishkeit. For whatever reason, for, for some time, a culture kind of became a norm. Maybe it was Stalin's fault. Uh, who knows? I mean, something happened where things became very harsh and very kind of fall in line, you know, very, very disciplinarian. But reclaiming that kind of patient, you know, explanatory, humble approach to raising children is not a new thing. It has old roots is, was my point. Like it has-

40:09 Speaker 1 Absolutely. You're a hundred percent right. Yeah

40:09 Speaker 2 ... it has Lubavitch roots. Has Lubavitch roots.

40:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:12 Speaker 2 Um, yeah.

40:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. The Rebbe, the Friediker Rebbe's, all his writings, talking about what the purpose of Hasidism is, you know, the kindness.

40:21 Speaker 2 Right.

40:21 Speaker 1 The chesed, the, the... You know, that was the main point of a lot of the Rebbe, Friediker Rebbe's guidance to us in, in the Kutete Burim and in Maamarim of his, and that was huge. And that's also like a, there's, there's a, a, a, uh, disconnect sometimes from that. You know, not, not paying attention to that, and not allowing for that to infiltrate our everyday life.

40:53 Speaker 2 I mean, it, it's very interesting to talk to you as a therapist. Uh, I mean, not that, not that I'm trying to have a therapy session, but as someone who practices therapy, um, because therapy, of course... I, I'm not, I'm not trying to claim, uh, proper familiarity with it, but, you know, it has, it ha- It, it has a lo-long history. It's a very rich, rich history of thinking and, and modalities and ways of approaching life. It's not, it's not just an, an instruction manual. It's really a philosophy of life. Um, how does that come in conflict with, with the Hasidism, with, with the Hasidisha outlook on life? Like for example, uh, you know, let's say, you know, from a therapist perspective or a therapy perspective with a capital T, if one can kind of, you know, boil it down to one, one general framework. You know, the, the, the desired outcome is for a person to be healthy and a person to be, a person to be mentally healthy and to, to not be in dissonance with, wi-wi-with himself, and to not be disassociated, and all these different ideas. But then, like, that must come into conflict at some point with the Hasidism demand of, of, you know, uh, whether it's the Habad Chabad Rebbe or, or, or even the idea of Iskafya or like the Brechen Sich or, or, or even at a very simple level, the idea that Hasids believes that a person is Blake Voll, like the Neshama is Blake Voll,

42:23 Speaker 2 and you're constantly striving Tzadok, to reach the impossible. Like even in a positive sense, forget about Iskafya and all the, that stuff. But even in a positive sense, Hasidism is demanding that at least you keep the impossible as the goal. How does that... Uh, does that come into conflict with, with the, with, with the idea of mental health?

42:45 Speaker 1 So on a... Uh, this could be a long discussion, but just on a simplistic level, all of that is not in conflict with, with what I would be doing. But you see, if someone is not feeling, um, that he has a self, so to speak, that, "Ich bin a shmatte. Ich bin a gornisht. I'm not worth it," and they interpret that as bitter

43:14 Speaker 2 Hmm.

43:15 Speaker 1 In other words, that, that-- and they have no self-dignity, they have no self-pride. Again, not self-pride as gaava, as, as, as haughtiness, but just a basic... You know, when, when you say, "Ve'ahavta es Hashem Elokecha," you have to be somebody to love God. You-- in order to have iskafia is habcha, you have to be there in order to be able to do that.

43:44 Speaker 2 Right.

43:45 Speaker 1 But if you're not even there in the first place, there's nobody home, so to speak.

43:50 Speaker 2 Right.

43:50 Speaker 1 So the way I perceive what I struggle many times with young men and young women, is that they get a sense of self. In other words, that they-- there's a worthiness, a basic worthiness and of, of-- And I've collected actually my Morem and Sichas from our Rebbe, from, from previous Rabb- Rabbim, from Likutei Torah, of wording that would support that, that in, that, that they need to be. You know, w- I've heard many words like from boys, "Ibn, Ibn S'krats. Ibn Agornisht." I fall apart. Somebody says something, and I'm, I'm, I'm nothing. You know, somebody will say something hurtful to me, and I become nothing.

44:40 Speaker 2 Right.

44:40 Speaker 1 In other words, that they have no sense of self. And then for five days, this plays in their head, so to speak, how much of a nothing they are because somebody said something derogatory about them. You, you get what I'm saying?

44:54 Speaker 2 Sure.

44:54 Speaker 1 In other-- Am I making it clear?

44:56 Speaker 2 Sure, sure.

44:56 Speaker 1 So, so if, if there's nobody there to have the ability to build who you are as a human being, and all you are is what other people say you are-

45:09 Speaker 2 Mm

45:09 Speaker 1 ... with the, with the outer validations and, and... So if somebody's giving you a compliment, then you're somebody.

45:16 Speaker 2 Right.

45:16 Speaker 1 If somebody's making a big deal out of you, "Oh, Yemol bin ich a mensch," then I'm someone.

45:21 Speaker 2 Right.

45:21 Speaker 1 But the- there's no internal ability to say that I'm somebody because I'm a chelek alaka mimol mamash. So that's even... Yeah, but people, you know, people say, "Well, uh, then I'm, I'm, I'm destroying that chelek alaka because I'm a nobody." You know, they argue that point. You know, they're degrading-

45:41 Speaker 2 Mm

45:41 Speaker 1 ... themselves.

45:42 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:43 Speaker 1 So in order for there to be their ability to serve the Rabbeinu Yisrael, and to serve the world around them in a, in a way, in a, in a mentally health way, there has to be a self, in other words. So a lot of times, that's not given to them for whatever reason-

46:03 Speaker 2 Mm

46:03 Speaker 1 ... as they grow up because it's been diminished, it's been, it's been destroyed from different experiences in their lives.

46:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:12 Speaker 1 And I'm not gonna get into that journey, but I'm just say- It happens. So when you have that kind of a, a person that presents to you, which I remember, uh, somebody saying that if, if, if you think you're nobody and your wife married this nobody, she must be nobody too. So then you're treating her like a nobody.

46:33 Speaker 2 It's a vicious cycle. Absolutely.

46:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. So- So, so that's-- And it's in everything that way almost.

46:39 Speaker 2 Yeah.

46:39 Speaker 1 So the way you treat your children, the way you treat the people in your world.

46:43 Speaker 2 Right.

46:43 Speaker 1 So if, if there's a nobody there, then, then who's dealing with this nobody? They must be nobodies too. So it's a very vicious, difficult journey. So if you're, if we're, if one is able to connect to that and able to reach deeper into a human being and get a sense of it, them understanding that there's, there's a self and there's a... And that self doesn't need anything else but itself, but you. You're, you're a chelek alaka. Let's talk about that.

47:11 Speaker 2 Right.

47:12 Speaker 1 That in itself, th- there's nothing else there is to put you here.

47:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

47:16 Speaker 1 So you have value. Forget before you do the things that you should assist.

47:20 Speaker 2 A, a priori, you have it-

47:22 Speaker 1 Yeah

47:22 Speaker 2 ... de facto it's, it's there.

47:23 Speaker 1 It's there. So that's it. And so the guys who understand Chasidus even, to some level, already have built up defenses against that.

47:32 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, if, if they haven't built it up, someone else has built it up for them.

47:35 Speaker 1 Right. So they've, they destroyed it for them, effectively.

47:37 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, the Fabregian, I, I, I don't wanna turn it-- I don't wanna start venting now, but I, I... I mean, I don't want to, but I will. I mean, the Fab- the, the Fabregian culture, I hope it's changed, and I, I can't sp- I can't make a blanket statement. But I've spent plenty a good hour at a Fabregian. That whole sprach of the Bista Garnisht, and it, it is so destructive. I mean, that's what you're talking about.

48:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

48:04 Speaker 2 And it, "Oh, it's just a few words. It's, it's meant in jest. It's with a hug." No, no, no, no, no. It, it c- There's a cumulative toll, and I, I feel like... I mean, I, I may sound like a broken record, but I feel like it's important to point out again that what, at least from what I hearing, what I'm hearing from you, is again, it's a, it's a translation issue. Because I, I never met your father, obviously, but I've heard about your father, and I've heard about people like your father. Like, these were people with... Look, they were brutalized, there's no question about it, and they had scars, but this idea of being somebody, they had it. Like, the, it-- Don't let anybody convince you otherwise. Even the famous Reb Nissan Nemanov, who was bitl personified, so they say. He, I mean, I never met him, but from what I hear, he was a strong man. Like, he, he, he had a very, very stubborn sense of self, right? Am I wrong?

49:04 Speaker 1 I'm, I, are you-

49:04 Speaker 2 You met these people-

49:05 Speaker 1 Are you willing, are you willing to hear a story about Reb Nissan and my father?

49:08 Speaker 2 Uh, of course. That's what I'm here for. I mean-

49:10 Speaker 1 So, okay

49:10 Speaker 2 ... not for. One of the things I'm here for.

49:11 Speaker 1 So, so this will go in another direction. So I'm, I'm 17 years old in, in Yeshiva in, uh, Branova.

49:20 Speaker 2 Oh, so you lived by Reb Nissan?

49:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

49:22 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:22 Speaker 1 And, um, I'm gonna describe the story. So the, the, uh, I was in a room, I wasn't feeling well, and, and some boy was selling something. Reb Nachum came knocking on the door, and the boy didn't-

49:34 Speaker 2 Reb Nachum Lapkovsky?

49:35 Speaker 1 Reb Nachum Lapkovsky came knocking on the door, and, and, and this kid didn't wanna open the door till the deal was closed, and then he finally opened the door. Reb Nachum called him downstairs. 20 minutes later, he's being thrown out of the yeshiva. I said to this young man, I don't wanna mention his name. He's an old kid.

49:53 Speaker 2 Sure.

49:54 Speaker 1 I said, "Did you tell them that I was here? And what did you do?" He says, "Zem, ze, they're, they're suspecting me of some- of something, and they threw me out." So I, as a good American boy, get dressed. I had fever then. I walked downstairs to Reb Nachum, Reb Nachum Lapkovsky, and I said, "Reb Nachum." I, in Yiddish, I tell him, "I was there. I don't know why you threw him out." So he said, "Reb Nissen resembling Temaris Gevor." Okay.

50:20 Speaker 3 Okay.

50:21 Speaker 1 "Go meet Reb Nissen." This is Reb Nissen would... I would see him from the wood at seven hours a day, he would daven. So I'm coming, I will knock on his door, and I sit down, and I tell him. Suddenly, anger comes out of his nostrils. I'm gonna translate. "A young man in middle of Seder, middle of studies, is laying in bed doing nothing, and he's telling me this."

50:50 Speaker 3 Right.

50:51 Speaker 1 I said, "Excuse me, but I'm here to tell you what happened to this boy." He didn't wanna listen. He kept on degrading me for who I was. Okay, so I, I said, "I, I hear you." And they didn't change anything. The boy was expelled for a period of three weeks, then came back. I come back to New York, and I tell my father the story.

51:15 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

51:17 Speaker 1 So my father says to me, "Du shmarkach, you little stupid kid. You know who Reb Nissen is?" My father was a big- ... big admirer of Reb Nissen. "Reb Nissen is given..." And I'm, I'm gonna say this, I hope it doesn't offend the family. "Reb Nissen resembling a murderer."

51:38 Speaker 3 That's what he said.

51:38 Speaker 1 That's what my father said. He says, "You understand that he was who he was and who he became. You have no idea how this man is like transformed human being. Nobody's ever done that." And he went on for 25 minutes telling me how great Reb Nissen is.

51:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

51:57 Speaker 1 And he was in awe of Reb Nissen, literally in awe of Reb Nissen.

52:01 Speaker 3 They are the same age?

52:02 Speaker 1 Same age, buddies.

52:03 Speaker 3 Mm.

52:05 Speaker 1 So why did I go there? So what I'm saying is these were people, they were giants.

52:13 Speaker 3 Right.

52:13 Speaker 1 But they struggled with, with, with real things, and they knew each other well enough to have known that this was going on.

52:21 Speaker 3 Right.

52:22 Speaker 1 I'm tryin', I'm trying to think the, what wa- what was my point about whether I knew... You were, you were going towards Reb Nissen?

52:28 Speaker 3 No. I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't trying to talk about Reb Nissen. I was saying that he was, he, he was known as this person of bittul.

52:36 Speaker 1 Right, bittul. That's right. So he, again-

52:38 Speaker 3 But, but, but what you're pointing to is that the people that knew him knew him as a human being.

52:42 Speaker 1 Exactly.

52:43 Speaker 3 And he was a very strong human being. He had a very strong character.

52:46 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

52:47 Speaker 3 And, and, and... But, like, that's such a problem of translation, 'cause, like, how do most, how do most Americans translate bittul, for example? Self-nullification.

52:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's, it's sterile.

52:59 Speaker 3 Right. And, like, like, like, that's, that's probably... I mean, it could even be, I don't know the history of how bittul got translated to self-nullification, right? Or maybe bittul yes is self-nullification. Well, bittul is nullification, yes is self, so self-nullification, right? Like, I could-

53:15 Speaker 1 You're nothing. You're nobody.

53:16 Speaker 3 So I don't know if one of their, i- if the Rebbe signed off on it. I don't know how it started, and I don't know what the, what the origins of it is. But at some point, the way people who speak English interpret that is that you're nothing. You're nothing, and you're only something if you're validated from the outside, and you're validated by, by other things, by other, by this, by the c- by the community, by, by Mashpia, whatever it is. And what you're pointing to is that it's very clear that this is wrong simply because it results in broken human beings, and that's never how Hasidim were. Hasidim were not broken human, they're not broken, miserable human beings.

53:54 Speaker 1 They weren't. But you see, if you have a sense of self, as you're talking about-

53:59 Speaker 3 Right

53:59 Speaker 1 ... again, Reb Nissen, who was an unbelievable human being, and broke the, the, the, the, the, the, the... What, what's anger? Anger is not a, not a good thing.

54:10 Speaker 3 No.

54:11 Speaker 1 So he, he, he subdued that.

54:14 Speaker 3 Right.

54:14 Speaker 1 And it was a lifetime of work.

54:16 Speaker 3 Right.

54:17 Speaker 1 So it wasn't, "I'm a nobody." "I'm a somebody who, who broke-"

54:21 Speaker 3 Right

54:21 Speaker 1 ... "that somebody-hood that wasn't appropriate."

54:24 Speaker 3 Right.

54:25 Speaker 1 So th- there was a work with a, there was material to work with.

54:28 Speaker 3 Right.

54:28 Speaker 1 There was a sense of self who, whom, whatever his character, it expressed itself, so he worked with that. And in, by us, it's not, it's if you have a, an identity, and you know who you are, then these words can mean something to you.

54:45 Speaker 3 Right.

54:46 Speaker 1 It can, it can, yes, it's not, it's, it's not, it's not, it's to be a haughty human being walking around, and, and, and, and in our world that's called a narcissist, that everything is about you. That's very destructive world.

54:59 Speaker 3 Right.

55:00 Speaker 1 But if you don't have a sense of self in the first place, where you feel yourself like you're a shmata on the, on the gutter, that you don't appreciate who you are in any sense of the word, not the over appreciation-

55:12 Speaker 3 Right

55:12 Speaker 1 ... but under appreciation of what and who you are, that could be devastating.

55:18 Speaker 3 I mean, I would imagine, I don't know how, how it's seen technically in the world of therapy, but I would imagine this kind of s- worthlessness is in a way almost the flip side of narcissism. It's like it's, like in both cases, you're making it all about yourself or the, or the lack of yourself. It's like, buddy, like, that's not what this game is about. That's not what this program is about, like whether you're a thing or not a thing. You know? Like-

55:43 Speaker 1 Right. So sometimes the narcissist could be the product of lack of self-worth-

55:49 Speaker 3 Right

55:49 Speaker 1 ... and-

55:50 Speaker 3 Right

55:50 Speaker 1 ... no worthiness of themselves.

55:52 Speaker 3 Right.

55:52 Speaker 1 So they create this, this monster that, that is-

55:57 Speaker 3 Right

55:57 Speaker 1 ... all about themselves because they need everything outside of them to make who they are. And that's, that's destructive.

56:06 Speaker 3 I mean, isn't that like basic Freudian thinking of, uh-

56:09 Speaker 1 Uh, don't ask me anything about Freud. I'm not, uh, a Freu-

56:11 Speaker 3 You're anti-Freud?

56:13 Speaker 1 I'm not, I'm not Freudian. The, Freud has been marginalized, at least in my understanding, of the world.

56:19 Speaker 3 No, but I'm saying this is, this is like the idea of-

56:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, basic, basic, uh, understanding

56:23 Speaker 3 ... secondary narcissism or something, where like when the child, when the child doesn't have proper separation from the, from the mother. No, I, I mean, there's... You don't, you don't care.

56:33 Speaker 1 There, no, I'm not-

56:33 Speaker 3 You're not impressed, you're not impressed by my bikinis, basically.

56:36 Speaker 1 No, no. It's a, that's a world that I, I, I, I, I walked away from, so to speak.

56:41 Speaker 3 I see.

56:41 Speaker 1 And, and, uh... No, it's, it- because th-this, the, the, the, the world of, of Freud is just that he, uh, he introduced the subconscious. That's really what-

56:53 Speaker 3 Right

56:53 Speaker 1 ... he's, he's, he's honored for. And the, the other honor that he has, that the Rebbe Rashab somehow conversed with him, and maybe he was, uh, saw things that he didn't s- I don't, I don't even wanna say.

57:05 Speaker 3 It's in their Shimus. It's in their Shimus.

57:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I, I, I haven't studied the, that Rashimi well, so I can't say what exactly what came out of that. But, uh, obviously, he, he, he felt, the Rebbe felt enough to be able to go and speak to him, so.

57:18 Speaker 3 He went for, he asked, he asked about his melancholy.

57:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

57:22 Speaker 3 It says... I mean, I don't know if the word's melancholy in their Shimus, but that's the idea, that he wasn't, he, he was, he was not happy.

57:27 Speaker 1 Right.

57:30 Speaker 3 Yeah. I, it's, it's, uh, like I hate to beat a dead horse, but there's this, this, to, to me, it's just again, the, the, the problem of translation, the, the challenge of translation. Like, you, you look at a generation of people who I still believe loved their children. Like, they wouldn't want anything to happen to their children or to their grandchildren. They wanted what's best for them, and they thought they were communicating what they believed to their kids. But like, just even think of this example where like they're communicating Bittul, and in their mind, Bittul is you're a person with a sense of self who then transcends the self with these acts of, uh, not nullification, but, but, but reaching for something bigger than yourself, right?

58:18 Speaker 1 Right.

58:18 Speaker 3 I would imagine that'd be one way to explain it, but certainly that's how they lived, right? That's what they think they're communicating. But what the child is receiving in America or wherever it is, post the... In, in English, let's say.

58:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:31 Speaker 3 What the child is receiving is, "Okay, so you, you can't be anything, and, and, and, and, and your self is getting in the way of becoming a Chasidishe Barker, so you have to get rid of the self." I mean, the, the, the chasm there of translate, of mistranslation is so deep that, I mean, I think w-we're still, we're still recovering from it.

58:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. So a father once told me, he says, "If I spend too much time with my son, that if, you know, he's gonna become, uh, full of himself." So the... I'm saying that, so it's a lack of also, again, that's... You're, you're putting it, of interpretation, but of understanding the basic way a human being receives from another human being. In other words, a father, yeah, and I, I alway- I, I, I speak to the people that I talk to in, in therapy, is a, a, a child is like ode mitz ha'sadeh. The, the mother is almost like the ground that the, the, the child gives the, the child grows from.

59:40 Speaker 3 Right.

59:40 Speaker 1 And the, the father is like the water that makes the tree bloom.

59:44 Speaker 3 Mm.

59:45 Speaker 1 So a father, and that's research-based, that the father needs to spend time with the child in order for give them a sense of self.

59:54 Speaker 3 Right.

59:54 Speaker 1 To give them a sense of pride of who they are, because the biggest man in their lives-

59:59 Speaker 3 Right

59:59 Speaker 1 ... as a rule, is a father.

1:00:00 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:01 Speaker 1 So if my father, who's a busy man, who's, who's so involved, and no matter whether they understand it or not, comes into my world-

1:00:11 Speaker 3 Right

1:00:11 Speaker 1 ... and spends meaningful, even 20 minutes one-on-one with me, that means I'm an important person.

1:00:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:19 Speaker 1 That's the conclusion that they have. You know, it's, it's... I, I put it to them in, in, in dollars sometimes, which builds who they are. In other words, a child that hangs out on a Sunday with a, with parents on a, you know, for, for, uh, in the park with mothers and father, that's $50,000 into their feeling about who, good about who they are. One-on-one with a father, that's like a million dollars into his bank account of feeling good about who they are, which builds a sense of self. But a father who has, who's very busy building or an organization, whether shlichus or in business, and doesn't, and thinks that, "I don't need to give my child the time that he, that he, that I f- that I'm told to give because I didn't get it-

1:01:07 Speaker 3 Right

1:01:07 Speaker 1 ... and I'm okay," which is another question. But the point is that the, but then he'll, he'll feel like something special.

1:01:14 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:15 Speaker 1 Yes. Precise- precisely that. Because if he'll feel something special, he will be able to be the, have the resilience to overcome life as he faces it. But if there's no sense of, "My father didn't, didn't even have enough time for me, then I must really be nothing."

1:01:33 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:01:34 Speaker 1 So the father is a very important... So it's not a matter of translation sometimes of Chasidus necessarily.

1:01:40 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:40 Speaker 1 It's a matter of, of, of just not living life.

1:01:45 Speaker 3 Yeah. No, I, I, I, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I think, I think there was certainly a, a cu- a, a culture that took hold for some reason, uh, at least in, you know, this... I don't even think it's fair to point s-specifically to Lubavitch. It was a general-

1:02:02 Speaker 1 Mm

1:02:02 Speaker 3 ... old school, an old school thing where like the kids kind of grow up on their own, on autopilot, right?

1:02:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:06 Speaker 3 And then the fathers, whether it's because the fathers used to be too overworked or people didn't understand it, the ra- the ramifications of it, it was for sure how things used to be. Um- I, I just think that on top of that, uh, that's what I wanna get to next, is you were saying that there's a particular flavor of Lubavitch. Uh, what would be the word? Uh, you, you used the word before dissociation or in the context of this conversation, a, a particular form of Lubavitch worthlessness that, that you, that you have come to observe. Like, I mean, I think it's fr- I think it's important to point out that, like Lubavitch, it's not only, uh, like a lot of the world has, is dealing with this. Like, there's a old way of life which people kind of just did things one way, and there's a new, there's, there are things that are changing, sometimes too far in the other direction. But, uh, there is a particular Lubavitch thing that you've come to observe. You wanna talk a little bit about that?

1:03:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. So it's, it's what we've been speaking about. The Lubavitcher understanding, this is the misinterpretation of bitter is, or, or being, hanging out of a farbrengen. You know, the, du bist a gornisht, and the, the, you're, you're the, the, doin' dos a gornisht, and the alt is gornisht. So this kind of i- being misinter- That's a misinterpretation of, of, of, of a, of a sense of I'm nothing and I'm worthless.

1:03:39 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:03:39 Speaker 1 That's how it's being interpreted into the American thinking mind a lot of times, not always. So if you have a, a, I mean, if you have a child that grew up in a, in a, in a let's say, a healthy home where, where they did get a sense of self, then that, those words are meaningful to them. You know, I, I just flashed, you know, when I was 14 years old, I was in Montreal, and I remember one particular farbrengen that I was, that I pa- partook of with the, with Rabbi Greenglass, and he spoke to every one of us, you know, in, in a true old style farbrengen. No one can know it, but the, each one of us knew when he was talking to us. And to me, that, like, that time of my life, there was, like, a, a, a switch that happened in my life. But, but it was about... He was talking to my sense of self, how, how I need to, to bring it into reality, so to speak, but he connected with me.

1:04:47 Speaker 3 Huh.

1:04:47 Speaker 1 And it wasn't just about destroying me. It was destroying the part of me that was blowing up out of proportion.

1:04:55 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:04:55 Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying?

1:04:56 Speaker 3 Right.

1:04:56 Speaker 1 The, the, the, the, the, the, the exaggeration of the self-

1:05:01 Speaker 3 Right

1:05:01 Speaker 1 ... for lack of, uh, whatever. So-

1:05:04 Speaker 3 Adolescence.

1:05:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, you know, there was, I was a kid, but I-

1:05:07 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:05:07 Speaker 1 ... but I, you know, and, and, and he was able to penetrate that, but appropriately. It was sensitive, and I remember that particular night, we danced for four hours.

1:05:21 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:05:21 Speaker 1 It was «Yutes Kislev, Ani Eftach Boch.» It was like... And I, and I remember his words pounding in my mind.

1:05:28 Speaker 3 Huh.

1:05:30 Speaker 1 So, but I had a, I had a, if I'm not mistaken, I had a sense of self. Whatever that was, there was that, that I didn't feel devastated. And I've heard young men tell me today d- you know, on, on a consistent basis sometimes, how they felt like, like they were nothing. They were nobody because that's, that's what they were told.

1:05:55 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:05:55 Speaker 1 And I had one particular guy that argued with me and, and didn't, I didn't win the argument. I didn't help them. I didn't help him because he was so devastated by the words that were told to him by mashpiyim, by, by, by... And again, I, I, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not blaming mashpiyim. It was just a matter of that that's the language that was used.

1:06:18 Speaker 3 Right. But you're not, you're not accusing of malicious intent.

1:06:22 Speaker 1 No, no malicious intent at all.

1:06:24 Speaker 3 Right.

1:06:24 Speaker 1 There's never any malicious intent. It's just a matter, again, of interpretation-

1:06:27 Speaker 3 Right

1:06:28 Speaker 1 ... and who you're talking to.

1:06:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:06:30 Speaker 1 So, and today I have to say that the mashpiyim are becoming more sensitive to that. They're understanding.

1:06:37 Speaker 3 Right.

1:06:37 Speaker 1 I just finished, uh, a while ago working with a young boy, and, and I c- I, the, what I've heard from the other side is only positive reinforcement to who he was, not, not knocking his being.

1:06:55 Speaker 3 Ah.

1:06:56 Speaker 1 You understand?

1:06:57 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:06:57 Speaker 1 In other words, it was, it was, it was not a, uh, "I bist a gornisht anyway." You know? "You're s- you're nothing anyway. What are you, what are you working on?"

1:07:05 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:05 Speaker 1 No. You, "So now that you're getting to understand who you are, so now you can learn better." So they, he was supporting that journey for this kid. So that's a mashpia that's, that's getting it. Anyway, getting back to my own, what I was trying to describe is, is that in, uh, I sometimes see that how a young man comes into my practice, and the first thing they will sort of, uh, gravitate towards is their self-nullification. Their, their, their, the feeling of nothingness. Just so you, the contrast is some young men who I've seen from the other, from the th- Lithuanian world who suffer because, "I'm, I'm not a godel." This is the words. By us, it's nisht ken ksid hasaid. By them, it's, "I didn't make... I didn't become a godel."

1:07:58 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:59 Speaker 1 "I didn't become what I could become because I had a good head, and I didn't do well enough. I didn't learn enough to become the Rosh Yeshiva."

1:08:08 Speaker 3 Right.

1:08:08 Speaker 1 "And my father's disappointed in that." So that's a different direction where the conversation goes to.

1:08:15 Speaker 3 What's different about it? 'Cause isn't it, isn't it both a sense of, like, you're worthless if you don't achieve XYZ?

1:08:24 Speaker 1 Mm, no.

1:08:26 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:08:26 Speaker 1 Because over there you're worthless. Over here, you have the cap- you have the ability to become a godol, and you're not a godol. So which means that y- you're at fault for not learning long enough.

1:08:39 Speaker 3 Ah, very interesting. Y- you are saying that, that, that it's not, it's not cynical.

1:08:44 Speaker 1 No. It could be.

1:08:46 Speaker 3 When, when, when you say when... No, but when you say that you're worthless, that's just a cynical take where, like, whatever you're gonna do-

1:08:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:08:52 Speaker 3 ... you're gonna amount to nothing.

1:08:53 Speaker 1 Right.

1:08:54 Speaker 3 Basically, get used to living a life of amounting to nothing, and buck up and just deal with it. The ultimate cynicism of, of like, this is all one big, this is all one big act of futility.

1:09:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:09:07 Speaker 3 It, it, it, it, it-

1:09:08 Speaker 1 Yes. There's a feeling of brokenness

1:09:09 Speaker 3 Is that what you're, is that what you're pointing to?

1:09:11 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. So there's a feeling of brokenness-

1:09:13 Speaker 3 Mm

1:09:14 Speaker 1 ... in their journey, whereas the other is a feeling of, of not succeeding to get-

1:09:22 Speaker 3 Right

1:09:22 Speaker 1 ... where do you wanna go.

1:09:23 Speaker 3 Right. Disappointment, but not cynicism. Right.

1:09:26 Speaker 1 I mean, it could be cynical too, but it's not about that, that I'm... That it's not because I'm a nothing-

1:09:32 Speaker 3 Right

1:09:32 Speaker 1 ... it's because I didn't s- didn't spend the, the, the amount of hours-

1:09:38 Speaker 3 Right. I could've been something

1:09:38 Speaker 1 ... that I could, I could've been something. 'Cause I am something, so to speak, but I could've been something even greater.

1:09:44 Speaker 3 Ah. Yeah. Very interesting. Very interesting. It's almost like when you make the foundation this nothingness, it, it means that whatever you build on top of that is built on quicksand.

1:09:56 Speaker 1 Right.

1:09:58 Speaker 3 So it's like-

1:09:58 Speaker 1 Right

1:09:58 Speaker 3 ... it's, it's like you're, you're... What anything that you build is always kind of falls down. There's always a, and there's always a to pull it down anyway, and, and somehow we've misconstrued that, or many have misconstrued that to believe that that's some kind of, that's, that, that's a holy thing because at least you're not getting in the way, right? You're, you're, you're n- you're, you're kind of letting, you're letting the light through, when really, you know, broken glass is not... Broken glass also lets the light through, but not the light that you want. Um, but how, like, but going back to that tension between, like, the, the therap- the, the therapeutic mindset and the, and the Chassidis mindset, like, I understand what you're saying about the mistranslation of bittul, but, like, how do you explain, for example, that, you know, when people came to the Rebbe for dollars, not Chassidim, it's very evident when you watch a video that they're there as, as a somebody, right? They're dressed the way they dress. I mean, respectfully, at least most of the time, but they speak their language. They, they speak. Whereas Lubavitchers, you know, at least, I'm talking about videos. I'm ta- uh, you know, from what, like, the evidence presents. You know what I'm talking about.

1:11:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:11:20 Speaker 3 Like, like, get out of the way. Like, like you come, you leave. You're, you're scared, you're frightened, you know. And, like, if, you know, if you have a baal bus, maybe you can say a few words, but even then it's very... And it would seem that, like, from what I've picked up, it would seem that on one hand, the Rebbe many, especially in the early years, was uncomfortable with that and didn't like, like, or, or, or expressed kind of a, almost like a, a sadness about it that, like, what do you mean we can't, we can't talk like we used to? But on the other hand, I mean, that's, that, that was a tzedakah. That was a tzedakah. I mean, how do you... Like, I'm not, I'm not even trying to point, to ask you, I mean, you're welcome to answer it this way, but I'm not trying to do think that was the right thing or not. The fact is that's how things were, you know? And, and, but in today, you're, you're, you're, you're saying that, that the model of brokenness doesn't work, but how do you square a model of self, a model of a healthy self with, in the face of a massive tzadik, in the face of a Rebbe, where the model that we see looking back at these videos is that I'm tak a nobody in, in, in his, in the space? Which, which of course is almost crazy because isn't the whole idea that the Rebbe empowered people?

1:12:31 Speaker 3 But we never took that to heart.

1:12:35 Speaker 1 So it's like a double-edged sword. You know, you, you ... You know, when, when, when the shliach once asked the Rebbe in a shlichus what he should do on a daily basis in a shlichus, the Rebbe said, "You need to figure that on your own." In other words, "Don't come to me for every little thing you need to do." Which means the Rebbe empowered us.

1:13:05 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:06 Speaker 1 There was a sense of, of, of bittul to the Rebbe, which is, which is an appropriate bittul.

1:13:13 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:13 Speaker 1 Because he was, he was an unbelievable light. I mean, you can't look the sun, the sun into the eyes.

1:13:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:19 Speaker 1 It's difficult. But, but you're there, and you're, and, and, and when you walk away, you're s- you're, you're a somebody that's presenting Chabad, that presents these ideas.

1:13:31 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:35 Speaker 1 You know, uh, uh, um, uh, what is it? The, the, the, you know, the, there's a story of the Friediker Rebbe when, when he was a child, and he heard the old Chassidim farbrengen, "What's a Chassid?" So he walked into his father and he said, "Why are they farbrengen? What says the Rebbe? Or what, what says, what says, what's a Chassidim and what's is a Rebbe?" Right? And they, and he said, uh, "I'm, I..." "Or what's a Cha- what's a Chassidis?" So he said, "I know what Chassidim are. Why, why are, why are they, why are they asking?" So he said, "Du veist vos a Chassidul is. Zeyn farbreng vos a Chassid is." So, uh, Manis gives the explanation if I'm not mistaken, but it's the way it's understood is that, you know, your shliach goes to a town and he said, "Speak. The Rebbe said this, the Rebbe said that, the Rebbe says..." "What do you say, Rabbi?" "The Rebbe said this, the Rebbe said that." You, so what are you doing? You're, you're, you're, you're like a, a microphone.

1:14:34 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:34 Speaker 1 But when you s- so that's a, that's a Chassidul. You're mimicking. Then on the other hand, you have a guy who's speaking great ideas, unbelievable concepts, and one day the, the, the, the yungerman or the, the young couple that says, "Rabbi, where'd you get these ideas?" It's the Rebbe. So that's a Chassid, meaning that you're, you're, you're imbibing everything the Rebbe is and w- and, and taught you, and you're expressing that. So we're standing next to the Rebbe. We're, we're nothing. We're nobody. So there, there's no, there's no, there's no sense of, of haughtiness, of self. you're not gonna pontificate in front of the Rebbe, you know what I'm saying? So th- th- that's inappropriate.

1:15:20 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:15:20 Speaker 1 But, but so that, I think that's understood. That's an appropriate bittul-

1:15:25 Speaker 3 I see

1:15:26 Speaker 1 ... to who you are in front of the, the big sunshine.

1:15:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:30 Speaker 1 So you're a little candle, so you, you know, you're, you're trying to hide in a, in a, in a, in a, in a corner.

1:15:35 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:35 Speaker 1 But it's, it's understood. That's not a mis- That's, that's appropriate. There's no, there's no, you know... Again, there are many people who walked over with maybe a little bit more stature and, and, and, and, and, and were full of themselves, that's already another Madrega, and walked over and presented whatever it is that they presented to the Rebbe. And then there are guys, I mean, I have a picture of your grandfather, how he walked, you know, and it was like total bittul. That doesn't mean that he wasn't who he was. You know what I'm saying? So there's many people who had different approaches to... But it's not about, it's not about, uh... I, I don't think, that's not about a, a, a pathology, so to speak-

1:16:19 Speaker 3 I see

1:16:19 Speaker 1 ... of, of, of self- selflessness and bittul. I think that's a, an appropriate respect-

1:16:26 Speaker 3 Mm

1:16:26 Speaker 1 ... of the Rebbe. The other people are not nervous when they walk over to the Rebbe because their, their relationship is a, is, is not, is not with bittul.

1:16:36 Speaker 3 'Cause they're wearing sunglasses, so the sun doesn't-

1:16:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:16:38 Speaker 3 ... bother them as much.

1:16:40 Speaker 1 Good, good, a good analogy. Yeah.

1:16:41 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:42 Speaker 1 Good analogy.

1:16:43 Speaker 3 Very interesting. So I mean, it really is, speaks about the that like when a Talmud is in front of his Rav, he's botel-

1:16:50 Speaker 1 Mm

1:16:50 Speaker 3 ... 'cause that's the only way that you can receive what the Rav is saying.

1:16:53 Speaker 1 That's right.

1:16:53 Speaker 3 'Cause if you're thinking the whole time, you're not accept- You're, you're, you're, you're... But what you're saying, it becomes a pathology when you don't know how to reclaim yourself at some point because that's a necessaries. Like, there's, there's different times for different things, right?

1:17:08 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:17:08 Speaker 3 Is what you're saying.

1:17:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, so because if you're standing in front of the Rebbe and you're nothing, you're not gonna be able to receive anything.

1:17:16 Speaker 3 I see.

1:17:16 Speaker 1 In other words, if you're nothing, meaning there is no self-

1:17:18 Speaker 3 Even, even not, not by the Rebbe. If there's no, if there's no th- self to come back to-

1:17:22 Speaker 1 To come back to that's-

1:17:24 Speaker 3 Right

1:17:24 Speaker 1 ... that's, that's-

1:17:25 Speaker 3 Right

1:17:25 Speaker 1 ... that's able to transport that knowledge, to become-

1:17:28 Speaker 3 Right

1:17:28 Speaker 1 ... to become a, a Hasid, not a Hasidal. Because if a Hasidal, then, then what are you doing? You're repeating. In other words, your sense of self has to be there. You have to put who you are. You know, it's like the concept of, of «» brings the Gula. But if you un- if you own what you're saying, you don't have to say it «».

1:17:51 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:53 Speaker 1 Because it becomes yours.

1:17:54 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:55 Speaker 1 So your, your, your, your ability to walk in front of a, of a crowd as a Lubavitcher with the Rebbe's sort of glasses, with the Rebbe's, uh, uh, voice in your head, then you can, you can conquer the world. But if you are just mimicking or... I don't know mimicking. The word is, uh, um, um-

1:18:20 Speaker 3 Pantomiming?

1:18:21 Speaker 1 What?

1:18:21 Speaker 3 Pantomiming?

1:18:23 Speaker 1 What's pantomiming?

1:18:25 Speaker 3 Like playing, playing a game.

1:18:27 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:27 Speaker 3 Playing a-

1:18:27 Speaker 1 In other words-

1:18:28 Speaker 3 ... role playing

1:18:28 Speaker 1 ... you're, you're just a, a puppet of, of, of saying what's being said to you.

1:18:32 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:18:32 Speaker 1 Then you have no capacity to reach anyone because, again, that becomes you're n- you're no one. There's no one there. 'Cause if there was someone there, you can interpret that thought into your way of thinking-

1:18:44 Speaker 3 Mm

1:18:44 Speaker 1 ... and then you're reaching to the other human being in, in y- your connection. But if you're, if you're on the floor and you're nobody, but you have a good memory, let's assume, so you're, you're, you're, you're wording what the Rebbe said with no ability to transport it in a way that's meaningful to them.

1:19:06 Speaker 3 Right. That, that's a test is what you're saying. Ultimately, that's a test. That's a «», right? If, if, if, if, if, if the bittul... I mean, I think, I think that would in general be the test of any pathology, right? Like, wh- when a issue, when does it become a pro- a clinical issue? When it prevents you from, from functioning properly.

1:19:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:26 Speaker 3 Right?

1:19:27 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:19:27 Speaker 3 Like, like when it, if you're not feeling well or you're feeling a bit sad, okay, fine. You can deal with... You, you can, you don't need to deal with it necessarily. In a way, it could make it worse, right? Sometimes. But if your sadness makes you unable to talk to people or go to your work or be a parent, then that becomes an issue.

1:19:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:19:47 Speaker 3 You're, you're describing a similar thing. When, when, when, when the idea of bittul be- uh, diminishes you to a point where you cannot function, that's when it becomes a pathology.

1:19:59 Speaker 1 Right.

1:20:00 Speaker 3 I, I mean, I, we, we haven't really spoken about the negative side. I know you have to go soon, but I, I, I do want you to, I want you to, I, I, uh... 'cause I don't want it to sound just speculative, just describe a little bit, and I- we're not gonna end this way. I, I wanna, I want, I want... I don't wanna end on a negative note, but I do want, maybe we should've done this earlier, describe a little bit what you're seeing that makes you so concerned about this. Like, 'cause a lot of people talk about it, like I've spoken about it on this podcast and in general, but not so many people have to deal with it or see it and, and, and, and grapple with it with all the, with, with the people that they see. Talk a little bit about the ramifications of it. Like, like is, how is it affecting marriages, people in general?

1:20:48 Speaker 1 So I wanna just go back to the positive. I'm-

1:20:51 Speaker 3 We're gonna get back to the positive

1:20:52 Speaker 1 ... I'm, I'm just, um, before I go to your question, I'm gonna say to you, I'm, I see myself as a, as a, uh, a carrier of hope.

1:21:04 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:21:07 Speaker 1 Ultimate optimist.

1:21:09 Speaker 3 Right.

1:21:09 Speaker 1 I only see hope, and I'm, I was taught that if I can't see hope in my conversation with people, I don't belong there.

1:21:17 Speaker 3 But-

1:21:17 Speaker 1 That's the way I was trained.

1:21:18 Speaker 3 In, in therapy-

1:21:19 Speaker 1 In therapy

1:21:19 Speaker 3 ... or Lubavitch?

1:21:20 Speaker 1 In therapy. It fit into who I am as a Lubavitcher.

1:21:24 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:21:25 Speaker 1 But it, it, it, it, um, um... Okay, I'm gonna tell you a little story. So I'm, I, I was trained in a, in a, um, in a, uh, um, um, youth, uh, uh, prison for young men, uh, like a, uh, forget what it's called again.

1:21:45 Speaker 3 Juvenile, uh-

1:21:46 Speaker 1 Juvenile, juvenile det- juvenile detention center.

1:21:49 Speaker 3 Juvie, yeah.

1:21:49 Speaker 1 Juvie. So I was speaking to a African American boy, 15, 16 years old, and it could be, they could be there from truancy to assault with a weapon. This kid was a, a, he belonged to a gang, and he told me stories that made me feel overwhelmed, and I realized that I can't really help him.

1:22:11 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:22:12 Speaker 1 Totally overwhelming. So then I s- but I said, "What did you do today?" He says, "I played basketball." I said, "Were you... Did you play a good game?" He says, "No, we lost, but I told my guys that if we keep playing, we're gonna win." And that lit up my, my conversation with him, and that, that little piece is what guided me with his conversation, with my conversation with him about hope. So when I speak to people, as a rule, that's what I look for. I look for the hope in spite of all the constraints and difficulties that they have. So going back to it, it expresses itself in, in, in the inability to connect with a wife because you, you were not sophisticated enough most of the time. The young girls and young boys, when they meet, they meet f- And, and I'm not advocating for longer meetings because even the longer periods of time that the outside world has still doesn't work. The connection's still sometimes not there, and it has nothing to do with that. But some of them who have really not gotten to know each other, and, and then suddenly, you know, she will say, "I can't believe he's, he's, he can't look me in the eyes," or whatever. "He can't do this. He can't do that, and, and he's not c- connecting with the kids." So, and I have many situations like that, which expresses itself a lot of times in their validation of their inability to do that

1:23:50 Speaker 1 because they're nobody. They're nothing. And, and they have no story in their lives that tells them otherwise.

1:24:00 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:24:01 Speaker 1 And I have to go searching with, with their history of exceptions to the story, exceptions to, you know, the alternative story, so to speak, where it did happen, and they didn't pay attention to it.

1:24:15 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:24:17 Speaker 1 And, and then, so the, the, the, this modality that I talked to you about earlier, this IFS, is very, very organized about allowing people to understand themselves better of how these pieces within them work, and the great thing about this therap- this, this idea is that there's a self.

1:24:40 Speaker 3 Very interesting.

1:24:41 Speaker 1 And everyone has a self that's never been injured. The question is, what's that self? So they identify it as a spiritual piece of you, whatever, but to us, it's a neshamah. The question is, which neshamah? That's already another conversation. But, uh, but you have to get there. You have to get to the level of allowing yourself to appreciate that part of you. Hence, our conversation earlier, how do you get to really understand that you're a chelek eloka? If you have what is called disassociation, which means feelings are not something you feel comfortable with.

1:25:21 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:25:21 Speaker 1 And that's a feeling, that I have, I have a piece of God inside of me, that I'm a chelek eloka mim'al mamash.

1:25:30 Speaker 3 Right.

1:25:30 Speaker 1 That God is within me. That's a, that's an experiential thing. It's not a thought.

1:25:36 Speaker 3 Tanya talks about it.

1:25:37 Speaker 1 Right. Exactly.

1:25:38 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:25:38 Speaker 1 Hergesh, but it's hergesh. It's not, it's not da- It's, it's, it is das. It's not chokhmah. It's not up there. It has to-

1:25:46 Speaker 3 It's not yeah.

1:25:46 Speaker 1 Right. It's not up, but if you are the level of disassociation, in other words, which means that the, the way they, the way I understand they experience things is that feeling is dangerous because the last time I felt, I was hurt.

1:26:03 Speaker 3 So you protect your feelings by, by basically-

1:26:06 Speaker 1 Disassociating. Yeah

1:26:07 Speaker 3 ... shut- shutting them to the side.

1:26:08 Speaker 1 Disassociating. That's, that's a part that protects your feelings, so they will distract themselves. They will... So some people distract with workaholism, with watching television, which, with, with, with doing all kinds of things that are distracting them from making them, allowing them to feel the original pain of, of a, of a emotional connection with whatever that was in their early childhood.

1:26:33 Speaker 3 You s- you, you mentioned the, the, the more kosher things that people do.

1:26:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:26:37 Speaker 3 Uh, uh, the, the-

1:26:38 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah

1:26:38 Speaker 3 ... the v'cholos, everybody-

1:26:39 Speaker 1 The v'cholos, the kosher

1:26:39 Speaker 3 ... the, the, the teviras everybody-

1:26:40 Speaker 1 Right. Right

1:26:40 Speaker 3 ... can figure out.

1:26:41 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:26:43 Speaker 3 Uh, and that's, it's very interesting because, 'cause you, you spoke about how you're hopeful, and that's your, your, your modus operandi. Um, and I also heard it in the way you, a lot of times people say, "Okay, let's go back to your childhood and see how hurt you were" to validate how you feel now, and then kind of like, "Okay, now we know why the house burned down. Let's build a new house." And you suggested something very different. Let's go find a different vision of the past or a different version of the past that also has a truth to it that maybe has been neglected. This way we don't-

1:27:19 Speaker 1 So-

1:27:19 Speaker 3 Right, right? Is that what you said? Or was-

1:27:21 Speaker 1 So that's what one thing that I do.

1:27:23 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:27:23 Speaker 1 But I also do the ability to, there's nothing bad that happens in our lives.

1:27:29 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:27:30 Speaker 1 So there's, there is a, a difficult experience, and if you, if you can unburden it from that experience-

1:27:38 Speaker 3 Right

1:27:38 Speaker 1 ... from, uh, from that difficulty, it won't need the protectors, the so-called disassociation that you're doing or the, the numbing or the, the, the distractions to protect that pain.

1:27:51 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:51 Speaker 1 If you go in and unburden that, that difficult experience as a child, unburden it with means that you, you give it hope. You, you connect to it. You, you speak to it. You, you, you-

1:28:06 Speaker 3 What does that look like that you, that you see the good in it, that you see how... You see a good aspect of it? You see that like, like what's the example of that? You, you, you mentioned an example earlier. Your father looked at you at the Shabbos table with, with his eyes murdered you. Uh-

1:28:20 Speaker 1 No, that wasn't me.

1:28:21 Speaker 3 No, no, no. You mentioned that someone said-

1:28:23 Speaker 1 Someone did, yeah

1:28:23 Speaker 3 ... that-

1:28:24 Speaker 1 Right. So that would be going back to that experience, and for the child to be able to look it in the eye, experience that, and then l- let, let go of that, so to speak. In other words, I get that. So what would you say, you're an adult today, to your s- to your 11-year-old self? What does he need from you? He wants me to love him. He wants me to hug him. He wants me to care for him. So you create a protective environment for him that doesn't allow h- or that doesn't have him remain in that difficult experience.

1:29:01 Speaker 3 I see. I see.

1:29:02 Speaker 1 So it gives him hope. It gives him, it gives him, it, it gives him a sense of, of, of, of what he needed then as a child from your adult self now that you're looking back and giving him that. So that's hope. That's... So this is a different modality, but how you touch that original pain.

1:29:23 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just wanted to p- I, I, I feel like, I feel like at least the other thing that you mentioned about finding, finding the-

1:29:32 Speaker 1 The alternative story

1:29:32 Speaker 3 ... the, the alternative story, um, yeah, I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything. You know, ultimately, ultimately, the, like you said, there are many different ways to approach it. Um, and not always is there a way to find that alternative story or maybe some are just more difficult than others. But I, I think, I think at least one of the ways that I would think that we've, that we, that, that alternative story is understanding... I- Let me put it this way. I think understanding that some of what has been experienced has been due to this impossible gap of communication, this impossible gap of understanding, that is a way to reinterpret this past where there is a lot of hurt and a lot of missed messages as this, this was, this was love that was miscommunicated, and this was love that was miscommunicated. And I'm not trying to sugarcoat it. I know it may sound like that, but I think that, I think that, I, I think that, I, I just hope, I just hope that there is a way to, to break, break out from the kind of unnecessary harshness of the past without letting go of it entirely. Uh, does that make sense?

1:30:52 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

1:30:52 Speaker 3 Like, like, like there is, there is love there. There is, there is compassion there. There is, there is, there is truth there. There is a message there. And it may sound soppy, but I think it's real. Like, 'cause I, you know, a lot of times, oh, you're just talking about the older generation like a bunch of angry people. No, they, they, they were real people. They loved. They, they cared. But, you know, one of the ways to kind of unpackage that is that w- w- there was a l- there was a, there was a gap of understanding, which is if I put myself in their shoes. This is at least how I think.

1:31:22 Speaker 1 But see, there's never, uh, uh, within this whichever concept you're gonna use, blaming and victimizing yourself is not a way to go.

1:31:33 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:31:34 Speaker 1 So as, as soon as you point the finger at someone else, you're not accountable for what happened to you, and you... So this, with this, this 11-year-old, it's not that he needs to be accountable, but pointing the finger at his father doesn't help.

1:31:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:31:50 Speaker 1 In other words, that's not where any good form of healing goes.

1:31:55 Speaker 3 It doesn't break the cycle.

1:31:56 Speaker 1 And, right. So f- it's not only that, it doesn't help the person who's suffering.

1:32:02 Speaker 3 Right.

1:32:02 Speaker 1 Because as soon as you live in a life that points fingers, and that's been a very difficult journey for many young men and women, where they feel they have to point the finger or that's what is the outcome of their pain.

1:32:17 Speaker 3 Right.

1:32:17 Speaker 1 And so in, in the way I understand the work that I try to do is never, never, and that's, I, I have to emphasize that, never pointing a finger at anybody because that doesn't help you. And, uh-

1:32:33 Speaker 3 So how do you not point a finger? If someone's listening to this and they are upset at their parents for the way they kind of just spoke to them in a harsh language that they saw was not used o- towards other people, how do you not point a finger? I, I, I know that it's very sensitive-

1:32:49 Speaker 1 So, so the, the-

1:32:50 Speaker 3 ... but, but on one foot

1:32:51 Speaker 1 So on one foot, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you a story.

1:32:55 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:32:57 Speaker 1 That's one of my favorite stories of the Baal Shem Tov. Baal Shem Tov was walking on Friday night with his talmidim, and, uh, and, uh- And they walk by a kreshma, an inn, and they all see a friend that they know inside on Friday night celebrate whatever, huling, you know, enjoying a party. And one of them starts screaming, "Moshe, what are you doing in there? It's Friday night. I can't believe you're in there." The Baal Shem Tov turns to him and says, "You're jealous?" "I'm jealous? What do you mean I'm jealous? I'm yelling at him." That's the story. And then he says again, "But you're jealous?" So the, the, the interpretation is Baal Shem Tov is there. His other talmidim are there. Nobody's screaming. They're thinking of how they can help him. So when something in your life is getting you to re- be reactive, which means you're pointing a finger, usually that means you need to look inside of yourself.

1:33:58 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:33:59 Speaker 1 So even as a, a grown child remembering your 11-year-old experience, and today that experience is mirroring you to look inside of you what you need to heal internally. It's not about them. They, you wanna go to them? Let's go all the way to, to Adam HaRishon.

1:34:20 Speaker 3 Right.

1:34:21 Speaker 1 That's, that's a never-ending process.

1:34:23 Speaker 3 Right.

1:34:24 Speaker 1 W- I've, I was hurt. I need to deal with my pain. How do I, how do I get out of my exile?

1:34:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:34:33 Speaker 1 How do I elevate myself? How do I unburden my exile, the experience that I had with, happened to be my father. It could've been anybody.

1:34:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:34:42 Speaker 1 But so the unburdening of that, which means the, the adult self gets to sit with the young self, speak to them, get close to them, ask them what they need. I, I go through this experience almost on a daily basis-

1:34:56 Speaker 3 Mm

1:34:56 Speaker 1 ... where people actually feel, "Oh my God, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not feeling." And you can almost, they, they talk to their s- their little self.

1:35:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:35:07 Speaker 1 And the little self has no, they understand that they were suffering. That's all. There's never a pointing of a finger. Never is a big word, but most of the time it's, if, 'cause if they're pointing a finger, that means it hasn't been unburdened completely.

1:35:23 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:35:24 Speaker 1 So again, going back to the Baal Shem Tov story, the day, and the rabbi has a sicha about it. If you see something being done wrong-

1:35:31 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:35:33 Speaker 1 Who, who, who's, uh, who, who you'll, if it, if you're feeling angry, that means it's your mirror.

1:35:38 Speaker 3 Right.

1:35:38 Speaker 1 You need to look inside of you. If you feel like you have compassion, that's, so the self that they talk about has compassion only. No reactivity. Reactivity is parts that have been injured.

1:35:52 Speaker 3 So this comes back, this comes back to the self.

1:35:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:35:55 Speaker 3 This comes back to the self, so yeah. We didn't, we didn't directly put, frame it this way, but in many ways what I'm understanding from this conversation is that what does, what does De'ushri mean to a Chaim Michat Rizan? It means a healthy sense of self that has compassion to the self, and in a way. Uh, there's a, there, there's a meaning, meaning take ownership of, of your, of your identity. Take ownership of you being a Lubavitcher. You know, at some point it's your generation, it's your time. Pointing a finger at the past means that you're stuck in the past, right? You have to take ownership and figure out a way to, to, to, to make it better and to, and to make it your own, and to, uh, and to show the compassion to yourself and to your children.

1:36:46 Speaker 1 Right. Right, and po- pointing a finger at anybody for that matter.

1:36:49 Speaker 3 Right.

1:36:49 Speaker 1 Anybody, whether it's the system-

1:36:51 Speaker 3 Right

1:36:51 Speaker 1 ... or the, it's all really about what you need to be working within yourself.

1:36:56 Speaker 3 This is the ultimate De'ushri message. Uh, we mo-

1:36:59 Speaker 1 Okay

1:36:59 Speaker 3 ... we're, we're, we're beyond the past.

1:37:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:37:01 Speaker 3 No, but really it's, it's a sense of presence, of being-

1:37:03 Speaker 1 Right

1:37:03 Speaker 3 ... in the present.

1:37:04 Speaker 1 In the present.

1:37:05 Speaker 3 Being in the present. That is a- ... a beautiful way of, of framing the present. Anyway, I know you have to go. I appreciate your time. This has been a blast. Pleasure meeting you, and, uh-

1:37:16 Speaker 1 Same here. Thank you for having me, and hopefully this is meaningful to some people.

1:37:22 Speaker 3 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.