Ep. 21 // "Moving Beyond Process" w/ Rabbi Dovber Pinson

00:00 Speaker 1 The last few years, never just sat and just you can see this is like a Neviah, like there's like, there's like a flow, and it, it's coming from like a very, very deep place, and it's just like, this is it. This is like my essence. This is I'm, I'm pouring myself out there now.

00:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

00:13 Speaker 1 I'm not giving you a theory. I'm not giving you another, uh, Rambam and a Rashi. None of that, not anymore.

00:17 Speaker 2 We're past that.

00:18 Speaker 1 We're pa- past processes. I'm gonna give you what it is. You have to figure it out.

00:25 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I am here with Rabbi Dober Pinson, who is a Shliach, an author, and, uh, a well, a well-known speaker as well. Um, we-- I was here a few months ago to film Rabbi Pinson and interview him for a different video project. Um, what was it about? It was about Yutras Kislev-

01:08 Speaker 1 Kislev, yeah

01:08 Speaker 2 ... Yutras Kislev, Chag HaGola, freedom, and id- you know, the, the Hasidic idea of freedom or freedom of the mind.

01:15 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:16 Speaker 2 Um, a project that we, that I was doing for Shmuly Hecht-

01:19 Speaker 1 Yeah

01:19 Speaker 2 ... at Shabtai in New Haven. And it was a very interesting conversation, and, uh, I figured, I figured that we'd continue it on the podcast and open it up a little bit and see where it goes. Um, so for thank you very much for-

01:33 Speaker 1 My pleasure

01:33 Speaker 2 ... for agreeing to do this. And, um, here we are. So I'm gonna try to frame, frame the conversation for those who didn't watch the video and are going to watch the video. We started off then with, uh, we started off discussing... You know, I'm, I'm gonna actually, I'm gonna come into the conversation from the side.

01:57 Speaker 1 Sure.

01:57 Speaker 2 From the point, the point that there was a very interesting point that you made at the time-

02:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

02:01 Speaker 2 ... that, that I, that I remember now, and maybe we'll work our way back to how the conversation-

02:05 Speaker 1 Sure

02:05 Speaker 2 ... began then, or maybe we won't.

02:07 Speaker 1 Okay.

02:07 Speaker 2 We'll see where it goes. We were talking about how all the Rebbeim had sat in jail besides for the Ba'al Shem Tov and the Rebbe, right?

02:21 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

02:22 Speaker 2 Right?

02:22 Speaker 1 At least that we know. I mean, there's some, like, indication the Rebbe was maybe arrested or something at some point.

02:27 Speaker 2 Right. But that's a more an apocry-

02:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

02:29 Speaker 2 ... apocryphal story.

02:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

02:30 Speaker 2 It's not, it's not part of the canon.

02:32 Speaker 1 Right. It's not, it's not a canonized story.

02:33 Speaker 2 And certainly not as a Rebbe. That-

02:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

02:35 Speaker 2 ... that's for sure.

02:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

02:36 Speaker 2 That, that, that's, that, that's, that's, that's, uh, not dis-

02:39 Speaker 1 Yeah

02:39 Speaker 2 ... that's, that's, uh, not disputable. I mean, the Rebbe became Rebbe in America.

02:43 Speaker 1 Sure, yeah.

02:43 Speaker 2 So by definition, almost it was impossible. Um, and I remember you, you, you kind of gave a explanation or a hypothesis of why-

02:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

02:54 Speaker 2 ... that might be, is probably the accurate way of describing it.

02:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was a hypothesis, yeah.

02:57 Speaker 2 It was a hypothesis? Would be-

02:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, it's a theory.

02:59 Speaker 2 It's a th- yeah.

03:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:00 Speaker 2 Saying, uh, you know, you didn't claim for it to be fact.

03:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:02 Speaker 2 It was more like a, a maybe this is the explanation.

03:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:05 Speaker 2 Ulayeshleima.

03:06 Speaker 1 Okay.

03:06 Speaker 2 We'll get, we'll get to the ulai also.

03:07 Speaker 1 Okay.

03:07 Speaker 2 That was another, that was another part of the conversation.

03:09 Speaker 1 Okay.

03:11 Speaker 2 But, um, you suggested that it had to do with the Ba'al Shem Tov and the Rebbe having something in similar about their Torah and what their Torah is about.

03:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

03:23 Speaker 2 And almost that it would make sense that because of what they represent in the lineage-

03:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

03:29 Speaker 2 ... and in the schema of, of-

03:31 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

03:31 Speaker 2 ... of, of, of, of Hasidic thought-

03:33 Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah

03:34 Speaker 2 ... that this, the, the narrative of, of, of, of imprisonment doesn't fit for them. Am I-

03:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. More or less correct, yeah

03:40 Speaker 2 ... a- anyway, I, I'm just remembering it.

03:41 Speaker 1 Yes, more or less.

03:42 Speaker 2 I, I appreciate if you-

03:43 Speaker 1 If I anal- if I elaborate on this idea?

03:45 Speaker 2 If you'd like to.

03:46 Speaker 1 Sure, yeah. I mean, sometimes. Um, there is... Let's, let's say it like this. There's actually two ways of being in this world.

04:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:03 Speaker 1 There's two ways of being in this world. One is very process-oriented, and one is presence-oriented. So process-oriented means you're starting from point one to point two, and then you're like, your, your journey is moving forward. There's ups and downs, and there's, there's, you know, good times, bad times. That's like a journey way of doing things, which is process. And then there's a way of presence, and presence means that you're always in the right place at the right time right now, which is a different way of living. It's fascinating that, um, the Rebbe once spoke about this, uh, Chayal, I think, Mem Beis. And-

04:40 Speaker 2 Chaya, Chayal

04:41 Speaker 1 ... Chayal. Yeah, Chayal.

04:42 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's-

04:43 Speaker 1 Okay. Chayal Mem Beis. The Rebbe spoke about this, and he spoke about this idea that the Shar blat, like the f- opening page of the Tanya is

04:58 Speaker 2 Right

04:58 Speaker 1 ... and how it's a derech, you know, a ruch vekitzur, that you're gonna get there, but this is a process. It's very process-oriented. Then the Rebbe said that if you look at the Shar blat, there's no real Shar blat. So if you look at Sivas Orevosh, which is like the testimony of the, of the Ba'al Shem Tov, so even though it's not meduyak like the language Alter Rebbe writes in Gates of Kadish, but the, the ideas are clear. And the first opening, the Rebbe says the first opening, which is like the Shar blat of the book, is that you have to have the presence of Hashem at all times. And the Ba'al Shem Tov translates the Sheviti's idea of Ishtavus. Ishtavus means equanimity.

05:33 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

05:33 Speaker 1 Equanimity means that no matter what's happening in your life, you're ups and down, you're always in a state of presence. You're standing in front of Hashem, and you're in a state of equanimity. So the Rebbe said

05:47 Speaker 2 Right

05:47 Speaker 1 ... because Ishtavus means presence. You're always there. You're always whole.

05:51 Speaker 2 Right.

05:51 Speaker 1 You're always perfect, exactly the way you are. The means process.

05:56 Speaker 2 Right.

05:57 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe says you could say that, uh, that the, the, the Ba'al Shem Tov is the Mayim, and it's, it's that it comes out of Gan Eden. It's like it's, it's a nar that's coming from the Mayim. But he says, "No, the, the, the, the, the Rashab writes that, uh, the Alter Rebbe's Torah is It's a Mayan of, of the Baal Shem. So how's it-

06:19 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:19 Speaker 1 It's a contradiction. How can you have the Baal Shem Tov that talks about presence-

06:22 Speaker 2 Right

06:22 Speaker 1 ... and Alter Rebbe talks about process? This is a, a shayla.

06:26 Speaker 2 Uh, wait, one second.

06:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:27 Speaker 2 I, I, I, I trust your translation of the words-

06:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

06:29 Speaker 2 ... but, uh, the Rebbe's didn't speak in English, so how, how did he teach presence? Or how, what did he say?

06:34 Speaker 1 No, he didn't say the word presence. He said the word shtetas.

06:36 Speaker 2 Shtetas. Uh-huh.

06:36 Speaker 1 He said that shtetas means that it's not, it's not kikah v'lach, it's not a journey.

06:40 Speaker 2 Right.

06:40 Speaker 1 It's like this... And the Rebbe w- the, the, the, the way the Rebbe uses language is there's no really difference if it's, like, you're feeling it, you're not feeling it, you're closer, you're not closer. It's always you're-

06:48 Speaker 2 Right

06:48 Speaker 1 ... you're near Hashem. So you're not talking about-

06:51 Speaker 2 Right

06:51 Speaker 1 ... any types of journey.

06:53 Speaker 2 Right.

06:53 Speaker 1 There's no... Kikah means that it's closer to you.

06:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:55 Speaker 1 It's a derech. There's no derech.

06:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:58 Speaker 1 In, in a state of shtetas, it was translated, right? In a state of shtetas means there's no up and downs. That's what shtetas means. Equanimity means that there's no up and downs.

07:06 Speaker 2 A- and he teaches the Alter Rebbe as, as, as, as being ups and downs?

07:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That... He said, "The way the Rebbe used the language," he says, "When a person reads the first chapter of Tanya, he has to, like, gartel his gartel and ready-

07:17 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting

07:17 Speaker 1 ... to do the journey.

07:18 Speaker 2 Interesting.

07:18 Speaker 1 Like, it's a, it's a battle.

07:19 Speaker 2 Interesting.

07:20 Speaker 1 It's a battle. It's molchama, like Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya, right? There's a molchama. It's a molchama to the, between the two nefashos.

07:25 Speaker 2 Right.

07:25 Speaker 1 So which is very battle oriented.

07:27 Speaker 2 Right.

07:27 Speaker 1 In Baal Shem Tov, there's no battle.

07:29 Speaker 2 Right.

07:29 Speaker 1 You're present. That's it. You're, you're here. You're near Hashem. What do you mean, up, down? What's the difference?

07:33 Speaker 2 Right.

07:33 Speaker 1 So this is the, this is the question. So first of all, the fact that the Rebbe asked this question is already a big thing. Like, it was never asked until the Rebbe. Like, the, the, the, the, the feeling of it, not as a shayla. The Rebbe's not the shayla. No one asked a shayla.

07:45 Speaker 2 Right.

07:46 Speaker 1 So this is a, this is already... I'm, I'm giving a, a pirush on this, right?

07:49 Speaker 2 All right.

07:50 Speaker 1 Okay. So what was-

07:52 Speaker 2 And anyway, we can make a disclaimer now-

07:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

07:54 Speaker 2 ... from now until the end of the podcast-

07:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, this is all ideas

07:56 Speaker 2 ... that, that some things will be with, from what the Rebbe says-

07:58 Speaker 1 Correct

07:59 Speaker 2 ... some of it will be ideas and-

08:00 Speaker 1 Ideas based, yeah

08:00 Speaker 2 ... th- th- take everything with a, with a-

08:02 Speaker 1 Yeah

08:02 Speaker 2 ... healthy grain of salt.

08:03 Speaker 1 Yes. So, w- so this is the question. This is the Rebbe's question. And the tzarich that the Rebbe gave, the tzarich, the, the, the answer that the Rebbe said that, which is a fascinating answer, is that... And again, I'm translating the answer-

08:16 Speaker 2 Right

08:16 Speaker 1 ... is that the Alter Rebbe's saying that you have to come from a place of, uh, of kikah v'lach, which means idea of process-oriented spirituality, which is movement and growth, et cetera, from a place of shvetze.

08:29 Speaker 2 Right.

08:30 Speaker 1 From the place, from the place of... That's the Mayan, that you come from the place of presence to the place of process. Now, if you, if you pull this out and you say, what is really what's, what's, what's happening here?

08:38 Speaker 2 Wait, wait, one second.

08:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:39 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe explain how? 'Cause, 'cause-

08:41 Speaker 1 No, he didn't say how. He said-

08:42 Speaker 2 But, but how, how... But if it's a stira, how do you get from one to the other?

08:46 Speaker 1 Because... I'll, I'll explain it.

08:47 Speaker 2 Okay.

08:47 Speaker 1 Okay. So I'll, let me explain. I mean, the Rebbe, the Rebbe used a lot of different osios when he talked about this. Kubos and the shor, he used a lot of different osios to explain this.

08:54 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:54 Speaker 1 Um, but I'll try to translate it. And, uh, also the Rebbe says v'chulu v'chulu a lot of times. So v'chulu v'chulu means you're supposed to add the v'chulu v'chulu, right?

09:03 Speaker 2 Uh, that... Okay, that's a whole different parshah.

09:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:04 Speaker 2 That's a very interesting parshah. V'chulu-

09:06 Speaker 1 'Cause the, the Rebbe, Rebbe said that, right? That's-

09:08 Speaker 2 What does v'chulu mean?

09:09 Speaker 1 Chulu means ken l'chatchilah v'achrichah. Like the Rebbe used to say, like, uh, you know, now you figure this out.

09:13 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:13 Speaker 1 Like, I'm giving you the principles. Now you-

09:14 Speaker 2 That's not how it's taught in Yeshiva, but-

09:16 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay. But v'chulu v'chulu, two v'chulus. The v'chulus is like it sounds like-

09:20 Speaker 2 I, I'm agreeing with you.

09:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:21 Speaker 2 But I think it's a very interesting... Okay.

09:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:23 Speaker 2 We'll get back to it.

09:23 Speaker 1 Okay. So anyways, the, the, the point is that there was, there is a s- there's... In Chabad, strict Chabad, and the way Chabad is understood, is that it's avoda. And avoda means you're starting off with a premise that you're not perfect, you're not whole. There's something, you know, there's two nefashos. There's two people. There's two real serious things. And the nefsh ha'shenit ve'zol chelek elokah mamash, which means you really start off vehi ya'adam is a nefsh ha'chaimis. Who you are is really a nefsh ha'chaimis. And you're slowly starting to move to the geich, to get someplace.

09:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:59 Speaker 1 And it's pro- very, very process... It's avoda. Avoda means it's really hard work.

10:03 Speaker 2 Right.

10:03 Speaker 1 Out of Zaid, Zal Moshe. I don't know if you know Zal Moshe. Zal Moshe once said... Someone asked him when he was older, "Ve di geich men?" Like, how do you get someplace?

10:13 Speaker 2 Right.

10:13 Speaker 1 Zal Moshe was a, a big Yid. The Rebbe wrote even zatza on him.

10:17 Speaker 2 Right.

10:17 Speaker 1 You know, a big, a big, uh, obviously Zal... I'm not saying he's a big person. So he said, "Tsvantsik yar skafia. Tsvantsik yar s'hapcha. Tsvantsik yar sam achvav." Like, s- s- 60 years already. Tsvantsik yar, tsvan- un nit garnisht. So, so ach, ach, chas v'shalom, I'm not gonna say it was Zal Moshe didn't get to that place, but that was the tnuah. It's like, 'cause, 'cause I'm always, if I'm always getting s- to someplace, I'm never there. The definition of a journey is that you're never at a destination.

10:45 Speaker 2 I mean, there, there's a nice anecdote about Zal Moshe-

10:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

10:46 Speaker 2 ... that fits that also perfectly.

10:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:48 Speaker 2 And it's also a little bit more colorful, and that's-

10:49 Speaker 1 Which one?

10:49 Speaker 2 ... Justice Zal Moshe. I think it was Zal Moshe.

10:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:52 Speaker 2 The, that he, on Purim, was very, very makpid-

10:56 Speaker 1 Yeah, to hear the-

10:56 Speaker 2 ... to hear, to hear the Megillah

10:57 Speaker 1 ... over and over again, yeah.

10:58 Speaker 2 Uh, 'cause you, 'cause in general, with the Megillah, you have to hear every word-

11:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

11:01 Speaker 2 ... to be mechaven, and it's impossible to be mechaven. So what did he do? He would listen to it, and then he would say l'chaim, and listen to it again.

11:07 Speaker 1 Right.

11:07 Speaker 2 Until he's pashut shiker and couldn't listen to it anymore.

11:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:09 Speaker 2 He had no choice.

11:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:10 Speaker 2 A similar idea.

11:11 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

11:11 Speaker 2 Sometimes the journey is to the bo- the bottom of the-

11:14 Speaker 1 So you have to g- you have to get to the end.

11:15 Speaker 2 To the end.

11:15 Speaker 1 Until the end. Until you drop.

11:17 Speaker 2 Till expiration.

11:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, till expiration. That's it. That's the journey. That, that's the definition of a journey. The definition of a journey is-

11:22 Speaker 2 Right

11:22 Speaker 1 ... that you never get to the someplace.

11:23 Speaker 2 Right.

11:24 Speaker 1 Right? If it's a journey, that means you never get to someplace. Okay, that's, that's one... That's, that's, that's, that's one way of thinking-

11:29 Speaker 2 Okay, that's, that's not... One second, one second, one second, one second. That's, that's not the nor-

11:33 Speaker 1 If life-

11:33 Speaker 2 That's not the normal definition of a journey.

11:35 Speaker 1 No, but if you say life is a journey, right?

11:37 Speaker 2 Right.

11:37 Speaker 1 That means that no matter what level you reach, there's always a level to reach tomorrow. The only way you... The, your destination is reached at the end of your life. Because if I'm living today and I say life is a journey, it means I'm, I'm continuously journeying.

11:50 Speaker 2 That's not... Again, I don't think that that's n- I, I, I, I, I understand that, but I don't think that that's normal. I think most people set up a destination-

11:59 Speaker 1 A goal

11:59 Speaker 2 ... that they'd like to reach-

12:00 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

12:00 Speaker 2 ... which is why you have the concept of retirement and you have the concept of achievement.

12:04 Speaker 1 Right. But I'm talking about spiritually. Let's say you say, if you say li- life is a journey.

12:07 Speaker 2 Right

12:07 Speaker 1 Right? It's a derech.

12:08 Speaker 2 There's also spiritual achievements. You, uh-

12:10 Speaker 1 Could you get, could you... In other words, let's say according to, like, the strict- ... definition of Tanya without pairing Yud Dalet

12:15 Speaker 2 Oh, on second, you're going right into Chassidus.

12:17 Speaker 1 Right.

12:17 Speaker 2 I'm talking about that.

12:17 Speaker 1 Oh.

12:17 Speaker 2 I'm just trying to bring out-

12:19 Speaker 1 No, I see what I'm saying, but if you say, if you, if you're talking about a journey, a spiritual journey, and I wanna get someplace-

12:25 Speaker 2 Right

12:26 Speaker 1 ... um, then the, the, the value is in the journey itself. That is the value. The value is that every day I'm moving closer and closer and closer because the moment I get to the destination, if there's like a spiritual epiphany, if I have to get to Eretz Yisrael.

12:40 Speaker 2 Right.

12:41 Speaker 1 If I get to Eretz Yisrael, now what? That, then it's over. So you don't, you don't-

12:45 Speaker 2 That's a whole different can of worms opening up right here.

12:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I know, but I'm saying, but that's the idea. The idea of like the, the, the, the process-

12:51 Speaker 2 Right

12:51 Speaker 1 ... inherently means that it's always in a processing.

12:54 Speaker 2 But that's only because Chassidus has set up the definitio- the destination as Ein Sof.

12:58 Speaker 1 Correct.

12:59 Speaker 2 Mo- if that-

13:00 Speaker 1 I got it. I got it. If you, if you see, if you wanna get to a place-

13:02 Speaker 2 Right

13:02 Speaker 1 ... I got it. Then you can get to the place and you're there.

13:04 Speaker 2 Right. That's what I'm-

13:05 Speaker 1 But if I say that I'm, I'm going to, I'm, I'm journeying towards the Ein Sof, so then the journey is Ein Sof.

13:09 Speaker 2 Right. But, but the, I, I, I think it's important to, to, to digress a little bit-

13:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:13 Speaker 2 ... and unpack it-

13:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:14 Speaker 2 ... because the journey to Ein Sof, we've gotten so familiar with that kind of thinking.

13:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:20 Speaker 2 But there's a reason why normal people, quote unquote, "don't undertake these kind of journeys."

13:26 Speaker 1 Yes. Right.

13:26 Speaker 2 Like, if every person decided that I want to go away from Avodas Hashem-

13:30 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:30 Speaker 2 ... and go to, let's say, business, right? If every person says, "My business journey is to become Jeff Bezos-"

13:34 Speaker 1 Right

13:35 Speaker 2 ... then you're gonna have a lot of miserable, delusional people out there because by definition, mo- the majority of people are not as smart as him and are not gonna be as lucky as him, right? So there's a reason why most people say, "I'm gonna make a real- like a realistic journey-"

13:53 Speaker 1 Right. So, so, so there's-

13:53 Speaker 2 "... because that gives me increments-"

13:55 Speaker 1 Right

13:55 Speaker 2 "... to judge myself against."

13:56 Speaker 1 Correct. I, I-

13:56 Speaker 2 Whereas Ein Sof, you never get closer.

13:58 Speaker 1 Right. Correct. I think in general, in life and like physically, it's healthy to make long-term goals and short-term goals.

14:05 Speaker 2 Right.

14:05 Speaker 1 I think that's the difference. Like I say, uh, first is I wanna become wealthy. Okay, I wanna have a million dollars when I'm 25, whatever, whatever the, the number is. Then I have like the big arching goal. Like one day I wanna have, you know, I don't know.

14:16 Speaker 2 But it's never 100 billion at that point.

14:17 Speaker 1 I got it. I got it. But this is, this is... Right.

14:19 Speaker 2 It's never 100 billion-

14:20 Speaker 1 Right

14:20 Speaker 2 ... because if that, if that's how you're setting yourself up, you're virtually setting yourself up for failure 'cause the amount of people that are gonna get there, it's like saying, "My goal in life is to win the lottery."

14:29 Speaker 1 Right. I got it.

14:30 Speaker 2 Good, good luck with that.

14:30 Speaker 1 'Cause, 'cause it's luck, right?

14:31 Speaker 2 Good luck, good luck with that. I mean, it's like, but this is even worse than luck.

14:34 Speaker 1 Right.

14:35 Speaker 2 Because it's question not the whole sheitach.

14:36 Speaker 1 It's not.

14:37 Speaker 2 It's not sheitach.

14:37 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct.

14:39 Speaker 2 And-

14:39 Speaker 1 So, so then, so then the journey is a journey and a journey and a journey. And, and, and ultimately, Rebbe writes it's in Tanya, right? If you're talking about the spiritually, the Alter Rebbe writes that the, the ‹Baneini›, the ‹Avodat Hashem Baneini› is the struggle.

14:48 Speaker 2 Right.

14:49 Speaker 1 And it's ‹Asu lemotalim›, and that's like the, that's the beauty of, of like the, the, the, the, you know, the, the unsavory foods.

14:55 Speaker 2 Right.

14:55 Speaker 1 And that's like part of the struggle is you're a struggler, and you're a struggler for the rest of your life, and that's it. Just remember that.

15:00 Speaker 2 Right.

15:00 Speaker 1 And you're gonna struggle, struggle, struggle. You're not gonna do the ‹Gach›.

15:02 Speaker 2 Right.

15:03 Speaker 1 That's not the point.

15:04 Speaker 2 But even deeper than that, in my-

15:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:05 Speaker 2 ... I mean, the way I think at least-

15:07 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:07 Speaker 2 ... the way, the, the way Tanya is set up is that the Alter Rebbe doesn't even give the luxury, and this, this goes back to the ‹Ulai› that we were-

15:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:14 Speaker 2 ... talking about. The Alter Rebbe never gives a person the luxury of saying, "Okay, you know what? I'm a ‹Baneini›. I'm gonna set up a, quote-unquote, "realistic goal of being a ‹Baneini›-"

15:22 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:22 Speaker 2 ... which isn't that realistic in the first place.

15:24 Speaker 1 Okay.

15:24 Speaker 2 But let's say it's attainable-

15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah

15:26 Speaker 2 ... according to the Alter Rebbe, right? The ‹Midah, Midah Sekhalah›.

15:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:30 Speaker 2 And that's gonna be my journey. It's, it's a, it's a... And that would be a life worth living is to become-

15:34 Speaker 1 Right

15:34 Speaker 2 ... a ‹Baneini›. But Alter Rebbe doesn't even give you that, that, that luxury of like, "This is my journey." He says, "Maybe, maybe you should be a ‹Tzadik›. Like maybe, maybe really your avodah is to be a ‹Tzadik›."

15:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:45 Speaker 2 Even though the chances of that being the truth are ‹Amar Rav Ashas Ben Chelda Vada›r-

15:50 Speaker 1 Right

15:50 Speaker 2 ... are, are minuscule. Most people are not... Most, the vast majority of people are not ‹Tzadikim›. But even though you're most probably a ‹Baneini›-

15:57 Speaker 1 Right

15:57 Speaker 2 ... I'm still gonna tell you that maybe you should be a ‹Tzadik›.

15:59 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Be a ‹Tzadik›. Right.

16:01 Speaker 2 Which, which, which kind of his idea that you're talking about here, that, that there's always almost in a way like this parallel, but in a way complementing kind of thing-

16:09 Speaker 1 Correct

16:10 Speaker 2 ... where there's a infinite part of the journey that is impossible, but that kind of tension of pulling you towards impossible changes what possible is.

16:21 Speaker 1 Correct.

16:22 Speaker 2 Right?

16:22 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. So that is actually a way of going back to like this idea. This is a way, the way the, the, the, the Rebbe and what he's saying is just like, um, this idea of ‹Hishtals› and, and, and process is how do we cr- how is there is a possibility for process within a world of ‹Hishtals›?

16:46 Speaker 2 Right.

16:46 Speaker 1 Like how do you do that? What's, what's the ‹Avodah› of a person? 'Cause if, if the, the Rebbe's, uh, is, is, is, on the one hand is of course the seventh level of Chabad, so it's, it's process and this is my ‹Moreh› and it's, it's like a process-oriented state. But in the other hand, the Rebbe also talks about a different language that no, none of Rebbe besides the Baal Shem Tov talked really, like in an open way of like this idea of ‹Nas Chasam Basaf›, and it's clear this idea of like every Yid's a, every Yid's a, a, a ‹Tzadik›, and every Yid's a Rebbe, and you have to open up ‹Yechidush Ben Efesh›, and you have to open your eyes and-

17:20 Speaker 2 Right

17:20 Speaker 1 ... which is like it's right here, right now. This, this, it just, it's not about a long, difficult process to get to a certain place. It's open your eyes. You, you, you really have ‹Yechidush Ben Efesh›. You really, you really, you really have this, this soul that's infinite, and you just have to open yourself to, to that. So then what happens with process? Like, so then what happens with this whole of ‹Eskafya› and ‹Hisapka›? What's, what, what, so does this happen? So there's a, there's a different way of looking at it. Like sometimes you think about ‹Eskafya› and ‹Hisapka› as I'm breaking myself to become something, and this is what actually what you said in another way of saying it. Or I'm breaking myself to show that I'm actually there already.

17:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

17:58 Speaker 1 It's very different. So if you talk, if you talk to a ‹Chassid› of Rabbi Shabs, I'm just giving you, again, this hypothesis. You talk to Rabbi Shabs's ‹Chassid›, he's doing ‹Eskafya› and ‹Hisapka›, meaning ‹Ichpen Garnisht›. And the, uh, and I have this ‹Taidah› for this, this, uh, orange, 'cause that was like a big ‹Taidah› those days, so an apple, let's say. And you can use a metaphor for any other thing.

18:18 Speaker 2 Right.

18:18 Speaker 1 And I'm saying, "I'm gonna break myself. I'm not gonna do this 'cause I'm bigger than it." And it... And, and by breaking it, I'm becoming bigger.

18:23 Speaker 2 I wanna climb the ladder.

18:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Exactly. So, and I'm, I'm showing myself, and I, I c- I can become bigger than this.

18:28 Speaker 2 Right.

18:29 Speaker 1 And the, the Dara Shvi or the Malchus or the Keser of, of, uh, this is, you know, this idea of, of this, of this immediacy of presence is that you don't need that. Watch it. You, you, you're gonna break yourself, and it's gonna show you not that I'm becoming bigger. It's showing me that I'm actually not that bigger than this.

18:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:46 Speaker 1 How do I know I'm bigger than the, than my Tayvus? If I can control myself. If I can control myself, this shows me that I'm actually a pack of, uh... I, I'm not a person that has Tayvus. I ha- I happen to be also a person that has Tayvus, but in my nit really, in my Nefesh, who I really are is beyond that.

19:00 Speaker 2 So in a way, it's a return to the roots of the Baal Shem Tov of the-

19:03 Speaker 1 Correct

19:03 Speaker 2 ... the pin- the Pinteli.

19:04 Speaker 1 Correct. With, with, with, like, it's a, it's, it's like a sh- a Shleimus of Chassidus. It's... The Rebbe speaks about this in other Maamarim, but not in this context, I'm gonna be honest. Not in this context at all.

19:14 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:15 Speaker 1 About klal to protoklal.

19:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:16 Speaker 1 This is a very big theme in the Rebbe, that, um, there's a klal. There's, there's a klali-

19:20 Speaker 2 Right

19:20 Speaker 1 ... if you wanna use this. Then there's protim.

19:22 Speaker 2 Right.

19:22 Speaker 1 Like the details, which is process. And the Avoda is Maamar Mishulash. A lot of Maamarim speaks about how you have to take the klal and the, all the protim and bring it back to the klal. Klal-

19:31 Speaker 2 Right

19:31 Speaker 1 ... protim, then klal.

19:31 Speaker 2 Right.

19:32 Speaker 1 But then the, the second klal is a klal that'll, has all the protim.

19:36 Speaker 2 Right.

19:36 Speaker 1 The first klal has all the protim.

19:37 Speaker 2 Right.

19:37 Speaker 1 It's just, it's ohr.

19:38 Speaker 2 Right.

19:38 Speaker 1 The Torah of Baal Shem Tov is ohr. It's pure ohr.

19:40 Speaker 2 Right.

19:40 Speaker 1 There's no protim. There's no, there's no process. There's no development. It's not... Here it is, this is the way it is. Comes Chassidus Chabad and develops from, again, Chassidus develops how we're-

19:49 Speaker 2 Mm

19:49 Speaker 1 ... supposed to live our life in this way, and the Rebbe's, the, the shleimus of this, the, the concl- completion of this Torah is, okay, now we're gonna take the protim and draw back into the klal.

19:57 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:57 Speaker 1 That's gonna be the hybrid between Shivisi and Kikarev Eleicha.

20:01 Speaker 2 Well, that's, that's the idea Chassidus talks about Sefat Emet Shmash El Chulu-

20:04 Speaker 1 Correct

20:04 Speaker 2 ... I think, right? Where, you know-

20:05 Speaker 1 Correct

20:05 Speaker 2 ... in every creative work-

20:07 Speaker 1 Correct

20:07 Speaker 2 ... you have the initial concept.

20:08 Speaker 1 Correct.

20:09 Speaker 2 And you, then you, you have... But to take the concept into reality, you need to get involved in a lot of the weeds.

20:14 Speaker 1 The details. Exactly.

20:15 Speaker 2 Uh, what color, what color paint am I gonna use?

20:17 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct.

20:18 Speaker 2 What pigments do I use?

20:18 Speaker 1 Correct.

20:18 Speaker 2 What canvas?

20:19 Speaker 1 Correct.

20:20 Speaker 2 And it gets very anno- it gets terrible for any-

20:22 Speaker 1 Correct

20:22 Speaker 2 ... person that's artist.

20:23 Speaker 1 It's very hard. It's complicated.

20:23 Speaker 2 Because your idea is diminished in many ways.

20:26 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct.

20:26 Speaker 2 And, and it feels futile.

20:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:28 Speaker 2 And what... I had this wonderful painting I wanted to make.

20:30 Speaker 1 Correct.

20:31 Speaker 2 And now I'm worrying about some silly color.

20:32 Speaker 1 Correct. And then eventually-

20:34 Speaker 2 The goal is to get back to an idea that's, that... But this time this idea is solid.

20:39 Speaker 1 It's solid. It's fleshed out. It's real.

20:41 Speaker 2 Right.

20:41 Speaker 1 It's, it's practical. So that's like the, the, the y- you know, there's, there's, there's... It says by, it says, uh, Tzaddikim write. It says, it says in the Sefarim that, that when, what a person says, what a Tzaddik, especially a Lasi, says at the end of their life is sort of the, the pure Torah that had to come out.

20:58 Speaker 2 Right.

20:59 Speaker 1 So if you look at, like, the l- the... Which is unfortunate. This is, like, the, the, the, the Nun Nun Alef. You know, those, those Sichas are, like, either hijacked by, by certain people or rejected by other people because no one knows really what to do with this 'cause-

21:11 Speaker 2 Right

21:11 Speaker 1 ... so it's like one of these un- uh, unlearned things by serious people. But I think, personally, I think that those, that's actually the, the deepest Torah of the Rebbe. Like, that's where it came out, where it came out in those types of Sichas where it's, it's pure ohr. You have to go all the way to the beginning, to, to Yun to get this whole-

21:27 Speaker 2 You were, you were there then?

21:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was there. Sure.

21:29 Speaker 2 So you were a Bachur then?

21:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, sure.

21:30 Speaker 2 Okay. Well, what was the-

21:31 Speaker 1 No, I was very much, much present there

21:33 Speaker 2 ... what was the, what was the feeling then? Because I, I, I-

21:35 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:35 Speaker 2 ... do wanna say that I, I, I'm not going to claim-

21:37 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:37 Speaker 2 ... that I learned those Sichas religiously.

21:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:39 Speaker 2 Part of that is because when I was in yeshiva, like you said, I was more with the people that were, like, made believe, like, that they didn't exist-

21:46 Speaker 1 Right

21:46 Speaker 2 ... in a way because other people had hijacked them, whatever.

21:48 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct.

21:49 Speaker 2 But a, a few months ago, for some reason, for a few weeks, I s- I, I learned them.

21:52 Speaker 1 You started reading them.

21:52 Speaker 2 And I was like, "Whoa, this is, this is really, really interesting things."

21:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:55 Speaker 2 And it's, it's not, and it's not all about Yichi. Like-

21:58 Speaker 1 No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

21:59 Speaker 2 It's not all about who's Moshiach or who's Moshiach.

22:01 Speaker 1 No. Yeah. Machalah. No. It's nothing like that.

22:02 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. I was like, "Wait a second."

22:03 Speaker 1 No, has nothing... By the way, it has nothing to do with that.

22:05 Speaker 2 Like, who convinced me this? Who convinced me?

22:06 Speaker 1 No, it's about Atzmus. It's about revealing the essence of who you are and being in the state of perfection and redemption and opening your eyes and living in a higher place.

22:13 Speaker 2 Right.

22:13 Speaker 1 The Rebbe talks about it, at least Tzaddikim and every person has to do with Chodesh and Torah. This, this is like, it's like a-

22:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah

22:17 Speaker 1 ... it's a whole nother thing. It's like-

22:19 Speaker 2 And it's very coherent. It's, it's very-

22:21 Speaker 1 Oh, it's super coherent.

22:22 Speaker 2 It makes, it makes-

22:22 Speaker 1 No, no, no

22:22 Speaker 2 ... like it's not like... No, actually, I shouldn't say coherent.

22:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I know what you mean.

22:25 Speaker 2 But, but pe- people said, oh, it's like the Rebbe's talking in this language that you don't understand.

22:28 Speaker 1 No, no, machalah.

22:29 Speaker 2 It's all like, it's like all Himldik.

22:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:30 Speaker 2 And I'm like, "No, no. Actually, most of it makes sense to me."

22:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, uh-

22:34 Speaker 2 It was a very different language than other Sichas, I suppose.

22:37 Speaker 1 100%.

22:38 Speaker 2 But, but that's me from a distance of 30 years later of, uh-

22:41 Speaker 1 So to be-

22:41 Speaker 2 How was it like, what's it like then?

22:42 Speaker 1 So, so, okay. So to be honest, we were Bachurim. I was, I was 19, 20 years old, so we were still Bachurim, at which means we're in the thick of, uh, things. We don't... I can't say we really chapped what was going on, like really what's going on, but there was definitely a sense that this is like, the Rebbe sat down with a Breigen, and it was... I, I don't wanna use this word 'cause it's like a very not holy word, like a stream of consciousness. You can see that there was a stream of consciousness. This was not, like, a prepared, uh, developed idea. This was like, ohr.

23:12 Speaker 2 Why isn't that holy? I mean, isn't that what we say about Maamar?

23:14 Speaker 1 I, I agree. But the-

23:15 Speaker 2 Isn't that, isn't that what we say about Maamar?

23:16 Speaker 1 I know, but if you look at the Maamar-

23:17 Speaker 2 Shklimu devaros b'lev

23:18 Speaker 1 ... yeah, yeah, I know. But Shklimu devaros can also be your preparation. So there's, like, a different type of Shklimu devaros.

23:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

23:23 Speaker 1 So the Shklimu devaros is like you say, you know, this is gezetzte shailah and a real Torah and a, and a, and a-

23:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

23:28 Speaker 1 ... the last few years the Rebbe didn't speak like that. Very, very rarely. The Rebbe just sat and you just, you can see this is like a navia, like, there's like, there's like a, a flow. And it, it's coming from, like, a very, very deep place, and it's just like, "This is it." It makes sense out of it. Now go figure it out. And I, I remember sometimes the Rebbe-

23:44 Speaker 2 This is what I have to give.

23:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. This is, like, my essence. This is, I'm, I'm pouring myself out there now.

23:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

23:48 Speaker 1 I'm not giving you a theory. I'm not giving you another, uh, Rambam and a Rashi. It's like none of that, none of that anymore.

23:52 Speaker 2 We're past that.

23:53 Speaker 1 We're pa- past processes. I'm gonna give you what it is. You have to figure it out. And sometimes I remember, 'cause to write it, it was very difficult. I remember, like, my Chazarah, uh-

24:01 Speaker 2 Are you, you were involved with the Chazarah?

24:02 Speaker 1 I, I... It's all my friends, so I was like, you know, that was all... But I remember we were all talk- used to talk about it as like, "What do you do with this? Like, how do you-

24:09 Speaker 2 Right

24:09 Speaker 1 ... how do you write it?"

24:10 Speaker 2 Right.

24:10 Speaker 1 So this is actually a difference between two different writers, between the Gea. But someone, some of them, I'm not gonna say who and who. Some were very much more logical. They tried to make it a very logical, sequential thing.

24:19 Speaker 2 Right.

24:19 Speaker 1 And some were much more left to ohr, like shine through.

24:22 Speaker 2 Right.

24:22 Speaker 1 And there was actually two. One was 20-

24:23 Speaker 2 Probably a difference of Hebrew and Yiddish, I would say.

24:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. So it was different. So the Yiddish is more, like, the way it was.

24:27 Speaker 2 Right.

24:28 Speaker 1 Hebrew is much more developed. But it was, it was, it was very interesting 'cause you, you felt that there was something happening. Uh, obviously everyone thought that, you know, Moshiach was, you know, about to, you know.

24:38 Speaker 2 Mm.

24:39 Speaker 1 But there was definitely a sense that this is a tremendous ohr that was there.

24:42 Speaker 2 So, so just, so just to, just to bring things-

24:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

24:45 Speaker 2 ... to s- to circle. So this is, this was the idea that you had suggested last time-

24:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

24:50 Speaker 2 ... about the Baal Shem Tov and the Rebbe, because they are more presence than process-

24:54 Speaker 1 Yes

24:55 Speaker 2 ... presence doesn't open itself to the whole narrative of-

24:58 Speaker 1 Correct

24:59 Speaker 2 ... of, of, uh, of being, of being imprisoned and leaving prison.

25:02 Speaker 1 Correct. Pr- prison is tension.

25:04 Speaker 2 Right.

25:04 Speaker 1 I'm imprisoned.

25:04 Speaker 2 Right.

25:04 Speaker 1 And I'm released from prison.

25:05 Speaker 2 Right.

25:06 Speaker 1 And I... That's movement.

25:06 Speaker 2 It's a whole story.

25:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:07 Speaker 2 It's going in, it's going out.

25:07 Speaker 1 Exactly. It's a story. It's a narrative, and that's, that's life. Most-

25:09 Speaker 2 Right

25:10 Speaker 1 ... most people living in this, in the drama of life-

25:12 Speaker 2 Mm

25:12 Speaker 1 ... and the, the conflict and the, the breaking out.

25:14 Speaker 2 I mean, look, it's, it's a fascinating hypothesis. A lot of it is very, I mean, a lot of it seems very obvious, but to me, instead of like trying to drill down and ask you to prove it to me-

25:25 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:25 Speaker 2 ... I'm gonna accept it here. I'm gonna accept it here and say-

25:27 Speaker 1 No, you don't have to accept that.

25:28 Speaker 2 No, no, but I want to 'cause I-

25:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:29 Speaker 2 ... I ha- I have... I think in my mind I have more interesting things to ask-

25:31 Speaker 1 Okay, fine

25:32 Speaker 2 ... about it.

25:32 Speaker 1 Okay.

25:33 Speaker 2 Because I think, I think the, I think the question is not so much whether or not the hypothesis is correct, it's more if it's correct-

25:40 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:40 Speaker 2 ... what do we, what does that mean?

25:43 Speaker 1 That, that's, see that's the most important question.

25:45 Speaker 2 What does it mean? Because there are a lot of, to me, just thinking about it now, very radical things that can come out of that. For example-

25:54 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:54 Speaker 2 ... and I'm probably jumping to the, to the more like radical one, but why not?

25:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:59 Speaker 2 I don't wanna, I don't wanna miss it. You know, there, there is a, there is a sense in Lubavitch, for obvious reasons, that some, that basically Lubavi- like the story of Lubavitch was cut off at Gimel Tammuz, right? Like there's... And, and to put it in simple words, that it's not Beshalemos.

26:22 Speaker 1 Hmm.

26:22 Speaker 2 Lubavitch is not, or Chabad is not Beshalemos because Chabad, uh, and Hasidus always has a Rebbe, and the Rebbe passed away.

26:30 Speaker 1 Hmm.

26:31 Speaker 2 And, and so we're not Beshalemos. What you-

26:33 Speaker 1 Hmm. So something's missing.

26:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, by definition. What you're suggesting is, is that it is Beshalemos because what started the Baal Shem Tov, the project, if you look at it as a creative project, and of course we're not talking about just, you know, Lahavdil from, from-

26:49 Speaker 1 Right. A ruchnius project

26:50 Speaker 2 ... for, for-

26:50 Speaker 1 A giluy Elokus, yeah

26:51 Speaker 2 ... we're talking about, yeah, we're not talking about, we're not, I'm not trying to turn it into some kind of art-

26:54 Speaker 1 Right, right

26:54 Speaker 2 ... inspiration, you know. But like, it, it was a, it was certainly a creative project on, on a very high level, on a very high spiritual level that started the Baal Shem Tov, took generations to, to process and to expound upon.

27:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:08 Speaker 2 And then the Rebbe basically tied it up-

27:11 Speaker 1 Correct

27:11 Speaker 2 ... and said, "Here it is. Here's the final painting."

27:13 Speaker 1 Correct.

27:13 Speaker 2 "Now go figure it out."

27:14 Speaker 1 Correct.

27:15 Speaker 2 Okay. That's Beshalemos.

27:16 Speaker 1 100% Beshalemos.

27:17 Speaker 2 Okay. So, so-

27:18 Speaker 1 How does that... But let me ask you a question. How could Hasidus not be Beshalemos? Now, um, it doesn't mean that people are not pained and they don't miss their Rebbe. That's not a shayach. I'm not, I... We have to remember there's two separate, two separate things. I, I'm gonna give you a Toyras Habal Shem 'cause it, it's-

27:30 Speaker 2 Okay

27:30 Speaker 1 ... 'cause it's, it's interesting. The Baal Shem talked about Mashiach as something that's right now, like Yichud Nishama Nefesh. Revi- you know the famous story with the Chassid that want to go to travel to Eretz Yisrael and he comes back-

27:43 Speaker 2 Machneh Eretz Yisrael

27:43 Speaker 1 ... Machneh Eretz. That's it. That's it. Even the, the Baal Shem said like, "Where's the Oren? Is Oren is immeasurable?" It's like the whole idea was like right here, the Rebbe is Mashiach. The Rebbe is the giluy Elokus, is, is Yichuda. You're k'lal this right now. On the other... So on one hand, you don't... I-I... So if it's right now, so why do you have gagoyim? Why do you, why do you desire for Mashiach, right?

28:02 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:02 Speaker 1 What are you, what are you looking for in the future? There's no future. It's right now. So this is a, this is something that's very oymek, that the, it's actually almost paradoxical, but they come together, that shlomos doesn't have to come at the expense of gagoyim. So when you say it's shlomos, we have to remember it is shlomos 'cause everything is b'shalom. A Hasidus is shlomos. It can't, it can't be that. Besides that, there also can be shlamis gagoyim, of course. Every person that's certainly people that saw their Rebbe have shlamis gagoyim to, to be connected to their Rebbe, see their Rebbe physically. But if you want to talk about Hasidus, like as an idea, how could it not be shlomos? There's a, there was a, there it was a giluy Toyras Ha- Toyras HaMashiach. It came down to this world to, to affect the world, and it reached... It's a full package. It's not, it's not even, it's not even shayach to say otherwise.

28:47 Speaker 2 I... So, okay, so first of all, yes, I, I, I'm not arguing with you. I, I think, I think there's a number of things that I would, that I would-

28:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

28:53 Speaker 2 ... point out there. Number one is that there, there, there is a, there is a to- there is a way that people... Meaning you asked me how could a Hasidus not be shlomos. I agree with you conceptually.

29:06 Speaker 1 Right.

29:07 Speaker 2 But that's not the way people talk.

29:08 Speaker 1 I understand.

29:08 Speaker 2 That's not, that's not the way people talk. So, so we're... Or that's not the way people feel. It's not the way people see things. So, you know, that's first of all, that's a very, it's a, that's a, that's a very, to me, a very touchy kind of subject where you, where, where it's like, you know, are you ready to say, or are you really saying that, that the Rebbe gave all like, all that he had, and he gave his, he gave his essence, and now it's, now, now we have all that we need? And wait, but the, but the, we don't need another sicha, we don't need another maimar?

29:39 Speaker 1 S-so, so that, that's gagoyim. I'm telling you, these are not-

29:42 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying-

29:42 Speaker 1 ... it's not conf- conflict with that. Person has gagoyim. Of course a person, a, a person-

29:47 Speaker 2 No, but that, but that, but, but really what you're saying-

29:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

29:49 Speaker 2 ... is that's gagoyim, that could mean that's a natural feeling, but intellectually and logically it's not true.

29:56 Speaker 1 That is not true. It's a different truth.

29:57 Speaker 2 It's a different truth.

29:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. At the same time-

29:58 Speaker 2 It's an emotional, it's an emotional truth

29:59 Speaker 1 ... it's a different truth. There's different truths.

30:00 Speaker 2 It's an emotional truth.

30:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Let's say a per- let's say a Chassidus, uh, not Lahav. Let's say talk not Lahav, let's say another person.

30:05 Speaker 2 Right.

30:05 Speaker 1 Person lives 120 years, your parents.

30:07 Speaker 2 Right.

30:08 Speaker 1 And then they pass on.

30:08 Speaker 2 Right.

30:10 Speaker 1 They reach their shlomos.

30:11 Speaker 2 Right.

30:11 Speaker 1 They reach their tafki. They reach their tit. And of course-

30:13 Speaker 2 They lived a full life, yeah

30:13 Speaker 1 ... a full life, completely. And he can say thank God, and he can be even grateful to their parents. Doesn't mean you don't miss them, doesn't mean you don't wanna talk to them anymore. It doesn't mean that you wish they, they're still present here. It doesn't mean you don't have, uh, there's new issues that come up that you wish that you could have a real conversation with them. Two separate things. There's, there's, there's two... You know, we, we, we, sometimes when we conflate different things together, they become a ster. But when we compartmentalize things, they're not a ster. They could be two separate things. I could feel completely b'shalom, a person that has lived a full life, and his parent passes away at 120 years old, and they lived a full life. They can say thank you, and they can bury their parents very, with, with a, with a good heart, and still feel an ache of, an ache of, an ache of pain. So-

30:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But I think, uh, uh, but I think though that a lot of times that people, a lot of times when people talk about what they miss, they don't just miss what you're talking about, the emotional aspect or from an emotional place. They, there is a talk that things were cut off. Mashiach was supposed to come, and he didn't come, and now, and now there is something missing by definition. Not just that I feel like I miss... You see what I'm saying?

31:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Now you're talking, you're talking about Mashiach coming. Now this is-

31:23 Speaker 2 No, but, no in general

31:24 Speaker 1 ... this whole part. So this also-

31:25 Speaker 2 I'm talking about in general that Lubavitch today is missing something. Like, but not just missing that like on top of what we have, we also want that, but that we're pushut missing. And so before we get to how you could have the two things in tension, uh, you know, I think the first question is, like, is it okay or is it, like how do we, how do we pr- how do we think about, you know, when you have, when you have yeshivas and you have people growing up and thinking about these things, you know, there, there is a, there is a kind of predominant sense that we are a der yosom, for example. Der yosom is, is more than j- saying that and thinking that. It's not just gagoyim. It's a sense of being-

32:13 Speaker 1 And it's a-

32:13 Speaker 2 ... being incomplete.

32:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's a good, like there's a chaser. And I think by the way, that's a chaser. That, that in itself is a chaser because I think for, uh, for... I don't wanna say this as a big statement, but I think a lot of times mashpiyim today, certainly certain mashpiyim, are storytellers. What they do is they sit around bochurim, they tell them stories that happened in the past.

32:31 Speaker 2 Right.

32:31 Speaker 1 Now, for me, I love it. Personally, I love it. Why? 'Cause I was there, so I... You're, you're reminding me-

32:35 Speaker 2 So you love zecheros?

32:36 Speaker 1 I, no, not... I, I'm like the Rebbe. I, I appreciate zecheros. I don't love zecheros. The Rebbe never talked about zecheros. I'm not a nostalgic type of person.

32:45 Speaker 2 Okay.

32:45 Speaker 1 I, uh, because you have to live the now. Because look, I-

32:47 Speaker 2 Right

32:48 Speaker 1 ... my Rebbe is the Rebbe. The Rebbe never talked about the past. A few little tiny little anecdotes about his past 'cause the Rebbe's a person that's living-

32:56 Speaker 2 Right

32:56 Speaker 1 ... right now 'cause that's presence, right?

32:57 Speaker 2 Right.

32:57 Speaker 1 That's, that's, that's... So I don't... But sometimes when this person reminds me, "Oh, you remember this?" It's very, it's like, it's like a nice memory, but I wouldn't-

33:04 Speaker 2 Sure

33:04 Speaker 1 ... sit and spend time in this. Like, that's not my thing. Um, but I feel like sometimes it's, it's a tremendous travesty you're doing. You're having 20-year-old bochurim and talking about chazal and lamdas and the... But they weren't there.

33:15 Speaker 2 Well, of hidal.

33:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

33:16 Speaker 2 Exactly.

33:16 Speaker 1 So, so, and so, so, so, so, so you're basically telling me this chassidus-

33:20 Speaker 2 Right

33:20 Speaker 1 ... and this is oil that came down, and you missed the boat.

33:23 Speaker 2 Exactly.

33:23 Speaker 1 And that's, that's, that's a, that's a terrible way to educate people because what are you doing to them? You're actually telling them... And you're not even telling them that if you do something, you're gonna get it. There's no way to get it.

33:31 Speaker 2 Right.

33:31 Speaker 1 It's the past. So you're, you're, what you're creating is a generation of people feel like they're, they're, they're gypped.

33:37 Speaker 2 Yeah.

33:37 Speaker 1 But why, why should you feel gypped? I'm not saying you shouldn't have the gagoyim. You can look, watch the videos on anything, gevald. But you should give a sense to, to, to bochurim today, Lubavitch, that you have chassidus.

33:47 Speaker 2 Right.

33:47 Speaker 1 The chassidus is, is a wrapped package, and it's the shleimus of oil, and you can be your highest potential physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, all the levels, by just living this life.

33:58 Speaker 2 Right.

33:58 Speaker 1 And, and you could be happy and joyful and, and passionate and, and alive and present with all these things.

34:04 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

34:04 Speaker 1 And stop talking about the, the, the ienia, the begania. I c- I get it. I, I also read the Hare. I, I, I like these things. I, I, I have yushmak in this 'cause-

34:12 Speaker 2 Right

34:12 Speaker 1 ... 'cause a lot of them is actually like, it's nostalgic.

34:15 Speaker 2 Right.

34:16 Speaker 1 But that's not where it's at. That's not-

34:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

34:18 Speaker 1 ... the emes. The emes of now is now. Talk about the Rebbe. The, the-

34:21 Speaker 2 Right

34:22 Speaker 1 ... every time the Rebbe... This is fascinating. If you look at, this is less mondipolik. If you look at all the farbrengens, the Rebbe never talks about yud beis tammuz, chai, all these big events. The Rebbe talks about it now.

34:33 Speaker 2 Right.

34:34 Speaker 1 I remember, I, I just heard about-

34:35 Speaker 2 Not, not, not a wish we were back in-

34:36 Speaker 1 No, and he never even talks about the past. He says that Yud Beis Tammuz, chai. May, let's make this chai. What does it mean to say? This is a, you're celebrating a thing that happened 100 years ago. No. You're celebrating now Yud Beis Tammuz because of this effect, and this is what it means, Yud Beis Tammuz. Everything is about right now.

34:51 Speaker 2 Right.

34:51 Speaker 1 And how do you live right now in the highest, shleimusdik way? So stop b- stop balbing about the past.

34:58 Speaker 2 Right.

34:58 Speaker 1 Stop, stop this reminiscing about the past.

35:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, the, the psychological... I don't wanna, I don't wanna dwell on this too much-

35:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:04 Speaker 2 ... 'cause I've spoken about it in other-

35:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:05 Speaker 2 ... episodes, and I also don't want it to... But, but I think I, I, I do feel a need to point it out again. Like the, the psychological damage of, of telling people that they are, that they missed the boat.

35:18 Speaker 1 Missed the boat.

35:18 Speaker 2 Uh, and, and that they live at odds with time itself.

35:21 Speaker 1 Correct.

35:22 Speaker 2 That like-

35:22 Speaker 1 'Cause that is the most devastating thing

35:23 Speaker 2 ... 'cause like, 'cause time is like one of the one things in the world that you can't fight.

35:26 Speaker 1 Correct. So what are you telling them?

35:29 Speaker 2 You got no grip on it, and it's like-

35:29 Speaker 1 No. There's like, and there's no way out. It's the way it is

35:31 Speaker 2 ... and like you're supposed to cry about the fact that you were born late, and it's like, do you know what you're doing?

35:35 Speaker 1 No, but this is heiter. This is the... I don't know if you believe in our chassidic prophecy.

35:38 Speaker 2 Prophecy.

35:39 Speaker 1 You believe in bashef. I mean, we, we believe in these things, no?

35:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

35:41 Speaker 1 We can't, we cannot, we can't speak with two sides of our mouth.

35:43 Speaker 2 So you end up having people who are at, upset at the Aibishter for-

35:47 Speaker 1 Exactly

35:47 Speaker 2 ... for giving them this time.

35:48 Speaker 1 But, but that, that's another chaser.

35:49 Speaker 2 And the cog- you know, but the cognitive dissonance that it does-

35:51 Speaker 1 Correct

35:51 Speaker 2 ... to your brain and, and you, you, you, you, the amount of pretzels-

35:54 Speaker 1 Right

35:54 Speaker 2 ... you, you tie yourself up into to-

35:56 Speaker 1 Correct

35:56 Speaker 2 ... to justify these things.

35:57 Speaker 1 So forget about the negative, which is this. So let's talk about the, let's talk about chassidus. Talk, talk, let's talk about what is right now and-

36:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. No

36:05 Speaker 1 ... inspire people in this present moment.

36:07 Speaker 2 I don't, I don't, I don't mean to dwell on this topic.

36:08 Speaker 1 No, no, I'm saying, but that's, that's what chassidus has to be.

36:10 Speaker 2 I, it's-

36:10 Speaker 1 It has to be an alive, living, present thing.

36:14 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

36:14 Speaker 1 Just like the Rebbe was alive, living, present thing. And the moment you still live in nostalgia, you're actually saying that the Rebbe, Gimmel Tammuz actually happened in a real way. Because if, if, if you say that at a, a, a, a tzaddik l'chayim, even if it's a sanik l'chayim, means that the living presence of the Rebbe is present in Tofshon Peh Dalet.

36:31 Speaker 2 Right.

36:31 Speaker 1 And if you say that it's Tofshon and you're m- reminiscing about Tofshon Lammed Tes, then you mean that the Rebbe passed away on Gimmel Tammuz. When you say a tzaddik is alive, it means it's alive.

36:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:40 Speaker 1 It's present. It's now.

36:43 Speaker 2 I mean, you know, it's something interesting. I, I, I... It could be, it could be completely off, and it could be a grobazakh-

36:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

36:49 Speaker 2 ... whatever. I mean, uh, the, the comments will, will judge me. But, you know, I was thinking about it the other, the other week. Like when, when does chassidus end? When does chassidus get to the end of its rope? By the end of the last Rebbe or the end of the last chassid? And, and, okay, that could sound like I'm just being-

37:12 Speaker 1 Right

37:12 Speaker 2 ... being a smart aleck.

37:13 Speaker 1 Right.

37:13 Speaker 2 But, like, obviously the answer is the end of the last Hasid, right? It's when the last Hasid is gone that Hasidus is over, right? 'Cause as long as there's a Hasid of the Rebbe, right, as long as there's a Hasid of Hasidus-

37:24 Speaker 1 Yeah

37:24 Speaker 2 ... it's still there. But you could go even deeper, and I think in a more serious way, and say every Rebbe started off first as a Hasid. Like, what's the core of, of Hasidus? What's the core? What's the actual, like, hot nucleus of Hasidus? Like, the Alter Rebbe, when he was appointed by his friends to be the, I forget what the word was, but to be the continuation-

37:51 Speaker 1 Yeah

37:51 Speaker 2 ... of, of the Tamid, uh, of the Maggid of Mezritch, he still appointed himself, he made a, a Rebbe for himself. That was-

37:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, Menachem Tach- yeah

37:59 Speaker 2 ... Menachem Tach- Menachem Tach was clear why, because you have to be a Hasid. Even... And, like, you... And I don't know if you saw it anywhere else. I don't know if this has to do with-

38:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, which is the-

38:08 Speaker 2 ... this idea of, of hishtalslut and-

38:10 Speaker 1 Yeah

38:10 Speaker 2 ... of presence, but, like, I don't know if there was any other Rebbe where you saw the, his level of being a Hasid as much as you saw it by the Rebbe.

38:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's, that's a, a whole big thing that you're talking about. But yeah, I, I happen to agree with you, of course, 'cause the Rebbe, the Rebbe, like, the Rebbe's m- uh, let's go, like, on a s- on a high super level to this thing that was said.

38:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

38:31 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's, like, represents Malchus, which is... In, on one hand, Malchus is less than Megaleh Cholom. It doesn't have anything of its own.

38:38 Speaker 2 Right.

38:38 Speaker 1 Other thing, it's reflecting everything else.

38:40 Speaker 2 Right.

38:41 Speaker 1 So this is, like, the, the ultimate, this, the... I mean, we can talk about the Rebbe from today to next year and, and not even understand even a Shabbos Menorah. But, you know, they used to say, I think it was Almosh said that, "A Hasid vashteit in a Rebbe vi a kat vashteit in, in de levone." So it's like ... And I heard from a Rebbe that it's, why'd I have to get kat in levone? Because, 'cause if you look at levone, at least you know it's a levone, but a kat's, a cat doesn't even know what it's looking at. So okay. With, so with all that having said that, that... We're really going way off track. I forgot what I was trying to say.

39:11 Speaker 2 That, that Rebbe was a, was a Hasid.

39:13 Speaker 1 Oh, a Hasid. That, that, that idea of, of... There's a, there's a fascinating article by Zevin in Sfarim Oseif, where he wrote this, like, I think, Taf Zayin, Zayin. And he writes about different Sfarim, and he writes about Lukot Sikhas. And it's a, a really fascinating piece 'cause this is very early, it's 1950s. He writes that the Rebbe in the Sikhas always says, "I'm quoting everybody." So-and-so, what's Megaleh Cholom on that time, yeah. The Rebbe said this, the Rebbe said that, the Rebbe said that.

39:41 Speaker 2 Right.

39:41 Speaker 1 Everything... He says everything he says is in a new way.

39:44 Speaker 2 Right.

39:44 Speaker 1 He's, he's saying everything old, everything repeat, but in a different way, which is that there's-

39:49 Speaker 2 So it's levone.

39:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. Exac- exactly. So the point-

39:52 Speaker 2 Yeah

39:52 Speaker 1 ... yeah, the point is that, that, uh, the Rebbe is the ultimate Hasid Rebbe.

39:59 Speaker 2 Right.

40:00 Speaker 1 In, in other words, the ultimate, um, receiver of-

40:04 Speaker 2 Right

40:04 Speaker 1 ... the previous generations-

40:05 Speaker 2 Right

40:06 Speaker 1 ... and a reflection of that, and the ultimate Bashpia of that, of that. And, and this is, like, a very paradoxical, if you wish, type of, of, of, of, uh, of Ohr, which holds those two spaces. But the Rebbe also was, was, um, the Rebbe was also a tremendous, uh, reflection to other people the same thing, that the Rebbe... When... I just, I just heard this recently. So Onsod told me that, um, that there was, I think it was a, a Zushya of Anapli in Mem Bet and, and, and Daled by Akat has walked up to the Rebbe and said, "The Rebbe's Olus Galavrim." So the Rebbe told him, "Omen Gamatem." And he was like, "Well, omen gamatem, what does, what does that mean? What's 'me'?" So the Rebbe says you also have, uh, you know, Kohelet that you're not, uh...

40:53 Speaker 2 Right.

40:53 Speaker 1 In other words, so this, there's a, there's a, the layers, the story is very layered because-

40:57 Speaker 2 Right

40:57 Speaker 1 ... one is that the Rebbe is saying is when, when, when, when you tell the Rebbe you're, he's Mashiach, what is he thinking? He's thinking that what the person is saying is, like, bring out who you truly are. Like-

41:05 Speaker 2 Right

41:05 Speaker 1 ... bring, bring out... And the Rebbe is saying, "It's true. Okay. I, I wanna do that. All right. I'm accepting what I'm doing, but I'm re- I'm reflecting it back to you, so you do this as well."

41:13 Speaker 2 Right.

41:14 Speaker 1 Like, you be your mo- your, your ultimate self.

41:16 Speaker 2 Right.

41:16 Speaker 1 So this is like a, a, a type of like a, a, a, a anti Rebbe Rebbe, like almost. Like, it's like, it's like the, the, the, the way, the classical way we think of a Rebbe and a Hasid. Not... I don't wanna say Chabad, but this is, like, a general thing, is the Rebbe's on the, on a pedestal, and the Hasid is this, like, this, you know, this little, little guy that's, that's... But by, by the Rebbe-

41:35 Speaker 2 They, they, they have a, they have a vort, like, the, the Schwanz Hasid-

41:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

41:38 Speaker 2 ... or something.

41:38 Speaker 1 There's something like that, right. And that wa- And, and Alter Rebbe, and Chassidus Chabad was very much that the, that the Hasid is, uh, or like the, they used to say, a Hasid is a Shtike Rebbe. What does it mean? It's like you're supposed to-

41:47 Speaker 2 Oh, they did, they did say that, a Hasid is a Shtike Rebbe.

41:49 Speaker 1 By Chabad. But-

41:50 Speaker 2 Did Chabad say that about themself?

41:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:52 Speaker 2 Or others said about Chabad?

41:52 Speaker 1 No, by Chaba- the, by Chabad, Hasidim used to say that a Hasid is, is, is a Shtike Rebbe. Which that is a-

41:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:58 Speaker 1 You're supposed to reflect that greatness.

41:59 Speaker 2 Right.

41:59 Speaker 1 You're not supposed to just accept that greatness. You say, "Okay, so the Rebbe is great, so I'm great." Like, that's what it's supposed to do.

42:04 Speaker 2 Right.

42:04 Speaker 1 It's supposed to evoke the greatness within you.

42:06 Speaker 2 Not, not just by riding the coattails.

42:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, exactly. The farkert.

42:09 Speaker 2 Okay.

42:09 Speaker 1 'Cause that, that's part of Chassidus.

42:10 Speaker 2 They're saying not like my Rebbe is bigger than your Rebbe, therefore I'm big.

42:13 Speaker 1 No, that's Kol Ovair. That's Kol Ovair.

42:14 Speaker 2 Yeah.

42:14 Speaker 1 There's, there's ano- there's another word.

42:15 Speaker 2 As a warning. As a warning.

42:15 Speaker 1 There's another word, Kol Ovair. Yeah, there's-

42:17 Speaker 2 As a warning, yeah

42:17 Speaker 1 ... no, it's farkert.

42:18 Speaker 2 Right.

42:18 Speaker 1 It's like my Rebbe is big and different. I'm big and, and everyone's big. The Rebbe said Rebbe call yourself.

42:22 Speaker 2 Right.

42:23 Speaker 1 So every- everyone to... The Rebbe said, "Okay, I'm gonna live my greatness. So okay, let's, let's, let's all do this. Let's, let's, let's do it. Let's do it together."

42:30 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I mean, you think about it, uh, the, if the Rebbe's talking his Emes, then how could it be that you have a different Emes?

42:39 Speaker 1 Correct.

42:40 Speaker 2 Posh doesn't, it posh doesn't make sense.

42:42 Speaker 1 Correct.

42:42 Speaker 2 Right? Un- like un- un- unless, unless... I mean, I, I'm, I'm sure there's a hasbara of, of what the other side of the coin is. Like, why, why did the Rebbeim of, of Hagat think differently? I'm sure they had a re-

42:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's another Sfar, yeah

42:55 Speaker 2 ... I'm sure they had a reasonable opinion. May- may- maybe there's an idea that, that, that- ... certain part of emes is Poshanat chayayach to others, and they can only have it through skash tzadok-

43:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:05 Speaker 2 ... or something like that?

43:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, it could be.

43:07 Speaker 2 Uh, it could be-

43:08 Speaker 1 Right

43:08 Speaker 2 ... there's something like that, but it seems like the, the idea here is like so many other things in Chabad, it's you take the idea and you take it to its radical conclusion.

43:16 Speaker 1 Sure.

43:16 Speaker 2 Right? If this is emes, then it's by definition emes umotam.

43:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:20 Speaker 2 Emes is not limited to-

43:22 Speaker 1 Correct

43:22 Speaker 2 ... right?

43:22 Speaker 1 Correct.

43:23 Speaker 2 And, um, but the reason I made that point before about cha-

43:26 Speaker 1 Cha, yeah

43:26 Speaker 2 ... like what's the set center of the-

43:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:28 Speaker 2 ... is that, is that, you know... I mean, and, and I'm, now I'm thinking even more.

43:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:37 Speaker 2 Like wh-wh-when Yitzchak happened and the Philadelphia passed away and there were for almost a year was, it's... I, I think if we're gonna be serious people, we can say they were seriously refusing to do it. I don't think there was a game going on-

43:48 Speaker 1 Right

43:48 Speaker 2 ... over here. Okay? Um, I mean, the, the one hill I'll die on is that there was not a cynical person, right?

43:56 Speaker 1 Right.

43:56 Speaker 2 It was very, very s-

43:57 Speaker 1 It was real.

43:57 Speaker 2 No, it was a very, it-

43:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

43:58 Speaker 2 ... like there was never, there was never, there was never a game-

44:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:01 Speaker 2 ... ever.

44:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:02 Speaker 2 It was always very, very straight.

44:03 Speaker 1 Right.

44:04 Speaker 2 Right? So I, I, I, it doesn't make sense to me that I'm trying to wait for someone to, to, to-

44:10 Speaker 1 No, no, you didn't want

44:10 Speaker 2 ... to tell me klal-

44:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, klal yisrael

44:12 Speaker 2 ... yeah, and I... that's gonna convince me.

44:13 Speaker 1 Right.

44:14 Speaker 2 And like sometimes you read these Yomanim and like, "Oh, th-this guy said this."

44:16 Speaker 1 Right. That's what happened.

44:17 Speaker 2 That's... And I was convinced by, by some, some cute line. I, I don't buy it personally.

44:21 Speaker 1 Right.

44:23 Speaker 2 So the Rebbe said he didn't want to become the Rebbe, right? What is that? Wait, he was, he, he was content or he was... Maybe not the word content-

44:31 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:31 Speaker 2 ... but he was prepared that basically what happened after Gimel Tammuz would happen after Yitzchak. There would be no sitting Rebbe of Lubavitch, and he would go on with his life as a Hasid of Lubavitch, I, I imagine.

44:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:43 Speaker 2 And of his, of, of his-

44:44 Speaker 1 That's right

44:44 Speaker 2 ... of his father-in-law.

44:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:45 Speaker 2 Right? Like, how's that even, how's that even a thing? Like, we have to... Like you know, you know Gemara-

44:52 Speaker 1 You know the-

44:53 Speaker 2 You know Gemara, you have to take the kasato title seriously.

44:54 Speaker 1 Right.

44:55 Speaker 2 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to-

44:56 Speaker 1 No, but the, the, the Torah says Gimel Tammuz. In other words, the Rebbe did it. The, in other words, the Rebbe actually-

45:01 Speaker 2 Right

45:01 Speaker 1 ... in other words, what you're saying about what Yitzchak, this is a very emetic thing 'cause what you're saying what happened Yitzchak and the Rebbe didn't... Because when the Rebbe became Rebbe-

45:10 Speaker 2 Right

45:10 Speaker 1 ... when he finally decided he wants to become Rebbe, he only became, he became Rebbe with the same hanaka of not becoming a Rebbe.

45:15 Speaker 2 Chazzai. That's what I'm getting at.

45:17 Speaker 1 So that's, yeah, so-

45:17 Speaker 2 That's what I'm getting at

45:18 Speaker 1 ... exactly. In other words, it's the same hanaka, it didn't change. The hanaka is a Chabad Rebbe. I'm not the Rebbe, but I am a Rebbe, and therefore I'm, I... Therefore, therefore it's the anti-Rebbe Rebbe.

45:28 Speaker 2 Right.

45:28 Speaker 1 Right? It's like-

45:28 Speaker 2 No, you could even say that the Rebbe became Rebbe to show everyone what it means to be a Hasid of a Rebbe who's passed away.

45:35 Speaker 1 Correct. Same idea.

45:36 Speaker 2 Almost like-

45:37 Speaker 1 Correct. Yes

45:37 Speaker 2 ... and, and it's, it's-

45:38 Speaker 1 Correct. The Yitz-

45:39 Speaker 2 I'm not even making... The Rebbe said this all the time.

45:40 Speaker 1 Correct.

45:40 Speaker 2 Frankly.

45:41 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. It's Yitzchak was a precursor for what happened Gimel Tammuz.

45:44 Speaker 2 Right.

45:44 Speaker 1 Exact same thing.

45:44 Speaker 2 Right.

45:45 Speaker 1 The fact that the Rebbe wouldn't make it up is showing that you can be a Hasid, a full Hasid, now with a li- for the, for the Rebbe, the Feter Yechiel was alive. It wasn't like a, a nostalgic story that happened 50 years-

45:55 Speaker 2 Right.

45:55 Speaker 1 The Rebbe would talk about 30 years later, 40 years later, as if the Feter Yechiel was in the room.

45:58 Speaker 2 Right.

45:58 Speaker 1 So this is a living thing. That you could do it.

46:00 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And, and it's such a travesty. Okay, I'm speaking-

46:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:03 Speaker 2 ... sound negative, but-

46:04 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:04 Speaker 2 ... I think it's important to point out because when I was in Yeshiva, there was always these people... No, when the Rebbe's talking about the Feter Yechiel Rebbe being alive, he's really being moron with himself.

46:11 Speaker 1 With himself. Yeah. Right, right.

46:11 Speaker 2 Cut it out. Cut it out.

46:12 Speaker 1 Right.

46:13 Speaker 2 Maybe. Maybe at some level.

46:14 Speaker 1 Maybe, maybe, yeah.

46:14 Speaker 2 Maybe you know the Drushim of the-

46:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. The Rebbe once said that on himself, but, but again-

46:17 Speaker 2 But there's also Pshat

46:18 Speaker 1 ... but Pshat. Yeah.

46:18 Speaker 2 There's also Pshat. When the Rebbe was talking, he's talking in the language-

46:21 Speaker 1 Yeah