Ep. 19 // "In Defense of Gezhe" w/ R' Mendel Duchman

00:00 Speaker 1 You do have folks today in, in Lubavitch that say, you know, "Forget Russia, forget where it all started. Today it's a different world, it's a different kufa. We wanna look forward. The Rebbe looked forward." Maybe in a few generations it's gonna be that way, but right now, you know, we cannot move forward without knowing, without knowing the past. Their whole priority was different. Their expectations were so high

00:29 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Hofatsen, and I will be your host. Let's begin. This week's guest is Reb Mendel Duchman. Reb Mendel lives in Los Angeles and is a businessman, a business coach, and a motivational speaker. He is also, to my mind, one of the most outspoken motivators and cheerleaders of shluchim and Lubavitch around the world. He is also a very public advocate of the value of what's called geze, or the importance of having a focus of one's roots, of one's family's roots back in the old towns of Russia, of, of Lubavitch communities in Russia. For these reasons, I felt that it would be important and insightful to sit down with Reb Mendel and hear his story, to hear what animates him, what inspires him, what motivates him to be the voice that he is today. When we sat down, it was raining, and it was raining pretty hard. So I apologize in advance for the sound of rain that might have come through on the microphones. I've tried to do my best with it to make it less audible, but the conversation was a fun one. I hope you enjoy it. All righty. So, uh, I am here in Los Angeles with Rabbi Mendel Duchman, who is, uh, is essentially needs no introduction to anybody in, in, in the world of Lubavitch. But, uh, everybody's heard of, everybody's heard of him, but I think there's-- I'm

02:18 Speaker 2 sure there's a story underneath it that, uh, that, that is worth exploring and worth hearing. So I wanted to start from the beginning, you know. Um, you've also been mentioning it a lot on your Facebook posts, uh, with your mother passing away a little over a year ago. Why don't you talk a little about your parents?

02:41 Speaker 1 Okay. First of all, thank you for coming by.

02:45 Speaker 2 My pleasure.

02:46 Speaker 1 Anyone that, uh, carries a Shemtov/Hofatsen, uh, name is very special to us. So welcome to Los Angeles.

02:58 Speaker 2 Thank you.

02:59 Speaker 1 Uh, where do I start with my parents? That's probably the hardest, uh, and the biggest, uh, responsibility. Um, Rabbi Sol and Rachel Duchman, my dear parents, um, my father. My father for sure doesn't need uh, an introduction. My father was, uh, simchas hachayim, totally. He, he, he loved life, and, uh, his goal was constantly just to get and be by the Rebbe, and, uh, the Rebbe should, uh, spend a few minutes with him, and, and he has. He was able to have a lot, a lot of, uh, get-togethers and interaction with the Rebbe, and primarily that's what he lived for.

03:51 Speaker 2 Where was he born? Like where did he come from?

03:53 Speaker 1 Obviously, he's, uh, from Russia, so, uh, he, he, uh, comes from the Alter Heim. And, uh, he started as a shochet and made it all the way through the war and, uh, moved to Dublin and then finally made it to America, but he's from the Alter Heim.

04:13 Speaker 2 So, so in Russia, you talk-- It-- He, he was-- he came of age, um, before the Communist Revolution, after the Communist Revolution?

04:22 Speaker 1 He came, uh, in the early '50s, I believe he came to the United States.

04:27 Speaker 2 No, I'm talking about in Russia.

04:28 Speaker 1 Oh.

04:28 Speaker 2 Like where did he come of age?

04:29 Speaker 1 Well, um-

04:31 Speaker 2 Did he speak about it a lot?

04:32 Speaker 1 I, I, I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know every single detail, but-

04:36 Speaker 2 Sure

04:36 Speaker 1 ... yes, they spoke constantly because his father was Rav Zalman, a Levi Duchman, and, uh, Momer Rachel, which I think is your aunt as well, and, uh-

04:47 Speaker 2 The mother of the Lipskers

04:48 Speaker 1 ... the mother of the Lipskers, the, uh, nurse of, uh-

04:52 Speaker 2 Gane Israel

04:52 Speaker 1 ... Gane Israel-

04:53 Speaker 2 Right

04:53 Speaker 1 ... which is also shichas to you. And, uh, the entire, uh... She actually just celebrated, uh, her one hundred and second, uh, birthday. She's a zain gezunt. But, uh, we grew up talking always about my father's family. He had two brothers who perished in the war, and, uh, Zeide Zalman almost perished in Leningrad in the hunger. And, uh, against all trials and tribulations, they, they did make it to the United States.

05:22 Speaker 2 Hmm. Uh, and your mother?

05:27 Speaker 1 My mother, my mother's maiden name is Rabashkin. So, um, I think she came from, yeah, Samarkand, and-- No, my father came from Samarkand. She came from Nevel, of course.

05:38 Speaker 2 She came from Nevel.

05:38 Speaker 1 Nevel. Famous Nevel.

05:40 Speaker 2 Uh-

05:40 Speaker 1 Which we actually, my brothers and I went to, to see and, and relive it. So she came from Level-- Nevel.

05:47 Speaker 2 And what did you find when you went back there?

05:49 Speaker 1 Uh, actually, you know, there was one yid related to, uh, he, he just-- I, I think he passed since, uh, Mayor Itskov, Shalom, um- We met him, he showed us around a little bit, and there's nothing really left there other than being really, really proud to be from Neville. And-

06:08 Speaker 2 What was there when they were growing up? Did your mother speak about it? Was it like a flourishing town? Was it, was it more just like a bunch of mud streets with great memories? Like-

06:17 Speaker 1 Both. Both. Both. It was a town, uh, but they had a-- You know, we have pictures of the house and then, you know, they had their own cow. They kept on talking about the cow, and how my Zayde, Zayde Getzel, my, my mother's father, alav ha-shalom, used to, um, purchase cows and, and feed the community and, you know, the Chesed went all the way back to then. But it was-- I would call it a village, a little shtetl, but very proud, a very proud shtetl, and, uh, give a look what came from that little shtetl.

06:50 Speaker 2 So 'cause we were-- I was actually talking about this someone the other day, like if you had to like compare Neville to a, a Lubavitch community today, it wouldn't be Crown Heights, right? 'Cause it wasn't Lubavitch. Like, would it be more like, like Los Angeles or-

07:06 Speaker 1 You mean phys- what it looked like? I-

07:07 Speaker 2 No, the concept. No, no, no. No.

07:09 Speaker 1 I think it looked like, uh, you know, Crown Chabad in the earlier days.

07:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

07:13 Speaker 1 Or maybe, uh, up in the c- you know, uh, the old-fashioned bungalow colony.

07:17 Speaker 2 Sure.

07:17 Speaker 1 And, uh-

07:18 Speaker 2 Sure. I'm talking more in, like conceptually, like was it-- It, it wasn't the center of Lubavitch, but it was like a flourishing community on the side, right?

07:26 Speaker 1 It, it was a flourishing community. I believe I read in one of the Seforim that, uh, you know, a lot of Lubavitchers lived there, but there was no real center. The center was, of course, Lubavitch and where the Rebbeim lived.

07:37 Speaker 2 Right.

07:37 Speaker 1 It was-- That, that was their whole life, their whole, their whole being was, uh, you know, uh, to be attached and to follow, and they wouldn't make a move even though they didn't see the Rebbe and they weren't, uh, there physically. They actually wouldn't make a move with the Rebbe- without being, you know, without getting approval-

07:58 Speaker 2 Right

07:58 Speaker 1 ... and things like that from the Rebbeim.

08:00 Speaker 2 That's what, that's what's so interesting about it to me because you had these, these communities that in, in many ways were on their own. Like they, they-- It, it wasn't like a flight away to Lubavitch. Uh, it was probably a nice long journey from Neville to Lubavitch.

08:15 Speaker 1 Well, if you're asking if they had WhatsApp or Facebook- ... or instant life like we do, no, no. But-

08:22 Speaker 2 No, but they didn't have, they didn't even have trains, I, I presume.

08:25 Speaker 1 Um, no. They, I think they-

08:26 Speaker 2 Out of Neville there was a train station in Neville?

08:28 Speaker 1 I don't know, but out of Leningrad-

08:30 Speaker 2 Right

08:30 Speaker 1 ... for sure. Out of Rostov, you know, we went, we went on a trip, me and, uh, three of the four brothers went on a little trip, uh, um, what is it, 36, 37 years ago, the, the day we finished the year for my father, and we went to Rostov, and we went to Lubavitch, and we went to-- We went everywhere. And I would imagine that-

08:52 Speaker 2 And where's Neville compared to those places?

08:54 Speaker 1 I, I don't know.

08:54 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:55 Speaker 1 I can't answer you.

08:56 Speaker 2 Right.

08:56 Speaker 1 Oh, excuse me. Um, we left Kyiv at 12 o'clock. We took a motor home.

09:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:03 Speaker 1 And we drove all night, so it was a 12-

09:06 Speaker 2 To Neville?

09:06 Speaker 1 ... 10 to 12-hour, uh, drive to Neville.

09:09 Speaker 2 To Neville?

09:09 Speaker 1 Yes. To actual Neville. There's a sign there's Neville.

09:12 Speaker 2 And from there to Lubavitch?

09:14 Speaker 1 Um, I don't, I don't remember. I think we went to Lubavitch first.

09:18 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:19 Speaker 1 But boy, was that a, um, a, you know, a motor home drive from Neville.

09:22 Speaker 2 Right. So in those days they didn't have a motor home. They were going by horse and buggy probably in a, maybe a little bit of train.

09:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:28 Speaker 2 And, and, and yet-- 'Cause it, it, it's very different to how we conceptualize Lubavitch, like, you know, or Crown Heights even in America, like in the '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s because they-- In, in, in America the Rebbe was in Crown Heights, the community was in Crown Heights, right? It was a lot more kind of localized.

09:49 Speaker 1 I, I think I would put it a little bit different. The whole world was different. You know?

09:53 Speaker 2 Right.

09:54 Speaker 1 If someone lived 100 miles away from someone else, they never saw each other unless they took the trip.

09:59 Speaker 2 Right.

09:59 Speaker 1 Unless they sent an airmail letter or unless they, uh, you know, the old Western Union telegrams with one word. Um, I, where I'm coming from, I think it's very hard to compare, um, those years, you know, to, to this year, you know, to these years. But, uh, you know, they had that kuffar then and actually, actually you, you may be a little bit right because when Lubavitch, you know, in, in the '60s, which is mainly my childhood, you know, there were hookups, telephone hookups, and you had to get up in the middle of the night and, you know, w-we didn't connect so well with 770 unless we made a special effort.

10:41 Speaker 2 Where were you in the '60s? You were still in Ireland?

10:43 Speaker 1 No, no. In the '60s I was staying as a bocher and-

10:46 Speaker 2 Oh, I see

10:47 Speaker 1 ... you know, when we were in Brinwa-

10:48 Speaker 2 Right

10:49 Speaker 1 ... or we were, or at Yesro-

10:51 Speaker 2 Right

10:51 Speaker 1 ... you know, you had to get up in the middle of the night for hookup, for hookups.

10:54 Speaker 2 Right.

10:54 Speaker 1 But it was definitely a different, uh-

10:57 Speaker 2 Right

10:57 Speaker 1 ... you know, when I traveled it was, you know, I, I also traveled, me and my brothers, by plane, so we had a different little, a, a different look at it even between then and now. Give a look what it is today. Give a look what Rabbi Lazar and Chabad there.

11:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right. But it's so interesting because, like, you know, it, it's known, even though I don't think I have any family that comes from Neville, like there's always that famous kind of thing, like the families that come from Neville, they're very proud of coming from Neville. And you would wonder like in, in 100 years from now, who are gonna be the families that are very proud that they came from Los Angeles?

11:33 Speaker 1 Who's gonna be-

11:34 Speaker 2 Right? Well-

11:34 Speaker 1 Your Zayde-

11:35 Speaker 2 Yeah

11:35 Speaker 1 ... is not... Yeah. Well, you're right.

11:37 Speaker 2 No, but, no, but, you know, you see what I'm saying? Like, like, like, like, like they're proud that it wasn't like against Lubavitch or in opposition to Lubavitch. Like the Rebbe was still in Lubavitch, but they were proud to be from Neville, right? Whereas like today- It, it would be, it'd be interesting to see what happens going-- like when people start looking back, like are you proud to have been part of the Lubavitch community in Los Angeles, or proud to be part of the Lubavitch community in Miami or Philadelphia or wherever?

12:04 Speaker 1 Well, let's put-

12:05 Speaker 2 I'm saying they did that then. That's, that's the point that I'm focusing on.

12:08 Speaker 1 I, I'm gonna add a word that's called gesher. Okay? For you-

12:11 Speaker 2 Well, we came to the source.

12:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, we came to the source. So, you know, gesher is gesher, you know?

12:16 Speaker 2 Right.

12:17 Speaker 1 The joke goes that, uh, the Duchman, the Rubashkin families are the original 40 families of Chabad, you know, back then. But pa-

12:24 Speaker 2 Right

12:24 Speaker 1 ... part of it a little joke, but it's, it's the truth. I mean, there were a lot of Hasidim living in Nevel, and they were real powerful, strong Lubavitchers. And the Rebbeim demanded, and they were followers. They weren't just followers because they-- And again, I wasn't there, so I, I may have it totally wrong, but my perception-

12:47 Speaker 2 Right

12:47 Speaker 1 ... from my parents and, and interacting the way my parents set their home and how we grew up-

12:55 Speaker 2 Right

12:55 Speaker 1 ... was that it was a close-knit community, Hasidim.

13:00 Speaker 2 Right.

13:00 Speaker 1 First came Rebbe, then came survival in town, and, uh, you know. But gesher is really a, an important word.

13:11 Speaker 2 Right.

13:11 Speaker 1 That was a good word then, and it's still a good word today.

13:15 Speaker 2 That's-

13:15 Speaker 1 I mean, by the way, I don't wanna interrupt you, but if you think about, you know, you talk about Lubavitch, okay?

13:21 Speaker 2 Right.

13:21 Speaker 1 Lubavitch today, 99 horror. You know, I travel all over the world. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a power. It's a, it's, it's, it's a power. What do they call the pew, the pew, the census? The pews? What is it? The-

13:35 Speaker 2 The... I know what you're talking about. Yeah, isn't it the pews?

13:38 Speaker 1 The pews, you know. The, the statistics and the numbers that are going up-

13:43 Speaker 2 Yeah

13:43 Speaker 1 ... you know? It's, uh, Chabad is So when you ask me about Nevel and Lubavitch and all these things, I can only tell you that it's obviously much, much smaller and much more and more compact. You know, they, they have the trails and the ways exactly where the Re- Rebbeim went to Haditch, to Nezin, to Lubavitch, to Rostow. I mean, you know, uh, uh, I wouldn't-- I can't compare it to Los Angeles, New York, West Coast, East Coast because the, the, uh, demographics are different.

14:17 Speaker 2 Right.

14:17 Speaker 1 But, but it was there, and it was powerful. And just the fact, if you wanna ask yourself how powerful it is, the fact that it survived-

14:23 Speaker 2 Right

14:23 Speaker 1 ... and the fact that it came to America.

14:25 Speaker 2 Right.

14:26 Speaker 1 And give a look what it came to America.

14:28 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Yeah, that's, that's the biggest proof that there was something very strong there. And I think, I think it's just a interesting thing to think about, that, um, you know, there, like there's, there's this space within Lubavitch of, of, if we're talking about Lubavitch identity, you have very proud Hasidim who are also proud of coming from Nevel, and it's not a contradiction. It's not a contradiction. Like th-th-they're specifically Nevel. That's where they're from. And they're also b- they're also, at the same time, they're, they're pretty Hasidim.

15:00 Speaker 1 I, I'm try, I'm trying to think why you're focusing on Nevel so much. Um-

15:04 Speaker 2 Well, 'cause you're, 'cause you brought it up, and you're-

15:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, Nevel is, you know, on Neveler. You know, the truth is-

15:09 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying

15:09 Speaker 1 ... that I, I, I, uh-

15:11 Speaker 2 I don't have an ax to grind with Nevel

15:12 Speaker 1 ... I, I, I really should, should read up more on it. But, uh, you know, today's generation, they tell you, and the people that are around, even though I don't believe it, you know, you don't look in the rear view mirror. There's no reason to look. It's today and looking forward, and it was then, and it was today. Um, but, uh, maybe, maybe you're encouraging me. I should, uh, I think Rabbi Futerfas, uh, Mendel, isn't he-- He's your uncle as well, no?

15:37 Speaker 2 I don't think they're from Nevel, though.

15:38 Speaker 1 No, but the out-- but the Stoltzkite from that home. Where, where was he from? I, I think-

15:43 Speaker 2 I think he grew up in Kharkov, but then I think he moved when his, when... No, I don't, I don't, I don't know. 'Cause he was born after his father passed away.

15:51 Speaker 1 Right.

15:51 Speaker 2 So his siblings certainly moved. I don't know if they moved to Kharkov or from Kharkov to their grandparents.

15:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. But if, but if you look at his, his gigantic legacy, you know-

16:02 Speaker 2 God, they didn't grow up, I don't think, surrounded by, like they didn't grow up really in like a Lubavitch town. They grew up-- There may have been a few Lubavitchers around, but from what I understand, they, a lot of Lubavitchers were actually quite isolated in Russia. They were like a sprinkle here, sprinkle there, Lubavitch minyan here, Lubavitch minyan there. Nevel was like that place, or I think maybe there's a few others. Klimovitch. These places were like there was a solid kind of community that established itself at some point. I don't know nearly enough history about it. I just think, uh, the only reason I bring it up now is not trying to stump you on the history. It's-

16:35 Speaker 1 And I don't have the history. And I can just imagine, you know, my brothers telling me, "Mendel, you got it all wrong." So, so let me say this very clearly. I, the general outline is there, and the Hergish, I mean, for a community, you know, that we-

16:50 Speaker 2 Right

16:50 Speaker 1 ... grew up in Crown Heights, and we saw all these immigrants coming and the whole s- the whole concept of the movement.

16:58 Speaker 2 Right.

16:58 Speaker 1 I can only imagine what the previous home was like. Yes, I was there. I was there several times, and I toured it several times, and I know where things are. But, uh, maybe some of the actual demographics I have wrong.

17:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. Look, whatever you're gonna say, your brothers are gonna tell you you got it wrong. So, so

17:18 Speaker 1 Okay. Listen-

17:18 Speaker 2 There's no, there's no way around that. So anyway, so, so your, so your parents, your parents, um, were in America, very proud, um, Lubavitchers, very Russian also 'cause they were immigrants. Um- Talk a little bit about, please, what it was like growing up in America. You didn't grow up in Russia. Were you born in Ireland or were you born-

17:39 Speaker 1 No, no. Only my brother Shalom was born in Ireland, where my father was a shochet, and I actually went there and I saw there were a group of shochet and Lubavitchers talking about Lubavitchers. They made a good, uh, impression on Dublin. There were quite a few of them on the Reza family, and, uh, I mean, there's a museum there and you see Lubavitcher shochet. But-

17:59 Speaker 2 There was a, there was a L- there was a frum community there? Why did they end up in Ireland? Or was just after the war, like displaced and people-

18:04 Speaker 1 I believe it was a, a meat decision, a chicken deci-- Uh, the, it was easier to shech there. I guess they were, they were friendly shcheta. I can't say 100%, but if you talk to a lot of Lubavitcher, uh, shochetim-

18:18 Speaker 2 Mm

18:18 Speaker 1 ... they, they shechted in Dublin.

18:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

18:20 Speaker 1 I think it was a, a main, a main distribution center of-

18:24 Speaker 2 I see

18:24 Speaker 1 ... of, of, uh... But Shalom was born in Dublin, and the rest of us were born in Crown Heights.

18:30 Speaker 2 So you g- so you grew up, s- a-and you for sure grew up, all of you grew up in America, but I'm asking you to speak for yourself, not for your other siblings. Um, you know, you grew up in America. What was that like growing up in a very, very different world to your parents? Did you feel it? Was it something that you sensed?

18:52 Speaker 1 Wow. You're bringing up a lot of, uh, uh, good days. Those were the good days, the days we didn't know anything else, you know. Today, we're, we're leading families and, and, and, and we have to influence others. Um, y- you know, the fact that my parents were immigrants and we grew up-- I, I mean, later I came to learn it and to analyze it, but when we grew up, it was just a bubble. It was a beautiful bubble where we lived in Crown Heights, and everything was centered around, um, 770, and everything was centered around the Rebbe. And, um, you know, we, we personally grew up in an, uh, upstairs of the Nogal Agav, the famous Nogal Agav, the original. Now, now there's a Beidish in Bnei Brak and Ein Haklach. But, uh, we were very, very involved with the local community, but we knew that we were Lubavitchers and-

19:53 Speaker 2 The local non-Lubavitch community

19:54 Speaker 1 ... the, the local non-Lubavitch community.

19:56 Speaker 2 Right.

19:56 Speaker 1 Sure. I remember Crown Heights by Taluka.

19:59 Speaker 2 Right.

20:00 Speaker 1 And different places on Eastern Parkway.

20:02 Speaker 2 Right.

20:03 Speaker 1 Uh, hundreds and hundreds of, of, uh, families, non-Lubavitch.

20:07 Speaker 2 Right.

20:07 Speaker 1 In fact, in Los Angeles we have, uh, quite a few families who we, we-- I was, uh, born and we grew up the first, uh, 10 years of our life was 922 Eastern Parkway. And there are families here that were born at 907, which is right down the road.

20:24 Speaker 2 Huh.

20:25 Speaker 1 Um, till today, people come and say Montgomery Street and Kingston Avenue in Brooklyn. And so there wasn't only a Lubavitcher community. It was a very large community.

20:35 Speaker 2 Right.

20:36 Speaker 1 And of course, there were shuls on every corner. Um, now Lubavitch took over most of them, but, uh-

20:42 Speaker 2 Right

20:42 Speaker 1 ... um, it was just growing up w-with, with, with around 770, like I said, and the Rebbe, but yet involved with, with all the people. In fact, all the storekeepers and all the entrepreneurs, you know, the fruit man and the grocery man and the pharmacy and everything was, uh, were non-Lubavitchers.

21:06 Speaker 2 Right. But I, I guess what I'm asking is, um, you know, today there's a lot of like nostalgia. There's books written about the times back in Russia and the communities there and the history and so on. Was that something that you were thinking about back then? Was that something that was talked about a lot, or was it very much in the present of like, we're here and that's where we're at? You know, 'cause there, uh, uh, just to preface a little bit, like you'll sometimes speak to the children of immigrants, and they feel like their parents' whole life is somewhere else, right? That their parents kind of left this life behind them, and there's something that the parents always talk about there in the past and right? Their parents never really made it here, right? Th-there are immigrant children that speak that way, and there are some immi-im-immigrant children where their parents moved here, and then they're here, and that's it, right?

21:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:58 Speaker 2 So that, that, that's what I'm asking.

21:59 Speaker 1 I mean, they're here because that's where the, where we were, and that's where the Rebbe was, and that's the future. But by, uh-- We knew we had families, uh, left behind. We always talked about it. My father was very involved with Ezras Achim. He was one of the founders where they would-

22:15 Speaker 2 Right

22:16 Speaker 1 ... send packages and people.

22:17 Speaker 2 Right.

22:18 Speaker 1 And also the Rebbe kept Russia in our lives-

22:21 Speaker 2 Right

22:21 Speaker 1 ... in a very, very strong way.

22:23 Speaker 2 Right.

22:24 Speaker 1 So it's not like, you know, um, what's the word they use today? You know, "Come on, Zadie. Come on, Dad. You're living in the past." No. No.

22:34 Speaker 2 Nostalgia?

22:35 Speaker 1 Uh, I don't-- You know, we had nostalgia. There's nothing but... Meaning the past, you're old-fashioned, you know, things like that.

22:41 Speaker 2 Right.

22:41 Speaker 1 But, uh, of course we, of course they talked. Everything they talked about was their home. I mean, my mother was left behind for six weeks as a nine-year-old, uh, Kleiner Maidela because they didn't have, uh, enough papers. I think she gave her papers to, to Berel Shemtov. I mean

23:00 Speaker 2 Really?

23:00 Speaker 1 I think which may be your uncle as well.

23:02 Speaker 2 Now, now, now, now, now besides your brothers, you're gonna have a whole other family upset at you too.

23:06 Speaker 1 No, I'm not upset. I'm just trying to-

23:09 Speaker 2 Okay

23:09 Speaker 1 ... I, and they're not-

23:10 Speaker 2 They're gonna be upset.

23:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

23:11 Speaker 2 They're gonna be upset.

23:12 Speaker 1 But the one thing I'll tell you, no, it's known. It's known that, uh-

23:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, but they were coming out of Tashkent. You were co-- It was all one huge rush.

23:18 Speaker 1 I, again, I don't, I don't remember every detail. I just remember the overall-

23:22 Speaker 2 Wait, wait one second. Your mother came out as a young girl? W- weren't they weren't married already?

23:26 Speaker 1 No, no. They were not married.

23:28 Speaker 2 They married after the, after they left Russia.

23:29 Speaker 1 Yes. They got married in Paris.

23:31 Speaker 2 I see.

23:31 Speaker 1 They went through Paris-

23:32 Speaker 2 I see

23:32 Speaker 1 ... things like that. Um, it's funny we're putting a timeline together now. I wish I would have, uh, had it done before this, uh-

23:40 Speaker 2 That's more interesting this-

23:41 Speaker 1 ... little conversation

23:41 Speaker 2 ... it's more interesting this way.

23:42 Speaker 1 Okay. Listen, it's, you know, today everything goes, so, uh, you know, let, let's just dive right into it.

23:48 Speaker 2 No. I'll tell, I'll tell you why. It-- When you have it all prepared, so basically it's like a history class, right? Where like this happened and then that happened, then that happened, whereas now it's more like we're piecing together the things that come to your mind as we talk about it. And I think to me at least, in a way that's even more interesting because that tells me like what were the things that you would speak about?

24:10 Speaker 1 Right.

24:10 Speaker 2 What were the things that your parents-

24:11 Speaker 1 Right

24:11 Speaker 2 ... the things that your parents spoke about, you remember.

24:13 Speaker 1 Right.

24:13 Speaker 2 The things that you have to go research-

24:15 Speaker 1 Right

24:15 Speaker 2 ... that probably shows that... You know what I mean? So that, that's why in a way I prefer it this way.

24:19 Speaker 1 A-and, and actually, as you're talking, I'm, you know, have memories. I was seven years old, and we got dressed Shabbosdik, and we went to JFK, the airport of Mr. Ma- John F. Kennedy in, in, in-

24:32 Speaker 2 Right

24:33 Speaker 1 ... in New York, and Zadie Getsel's sister-in-law, Zadie Getsel's brother's wife was coming out, and this was in the late '60s. And, uh, the whole family, uh, maybe we were 50 people, you know, we got dressed for Shabbos, and, um, and we welcomed her and her daughters. I think their name, uh, Rachele Brashavitsky. She just passed away.

25:01 Speaker 2 Sure, sure, sure.

25:01 Speaker 1 A young madam.

25:02 Speaker 2 I know her son. I know her son.

25:03 Speaker 1 Yes. So that's our cousins, and so it's not like we read about it. We-- My, my p-- Okay. I, I believe very, very strongly that those, all the immigrants, the, the Lubavitch immigrants, when they came to America, um, they didn't leave their memories behind. They didn't leave their legacy behind. They, they lived what they learned there.

25:27 Speaker 2 Right.

25:27 Speaker 1 And of course, they compared all the luxuries they had now to what they didn't have then. So we always used to hear, you know, "You're complaining about this, you know?"

25:36 Speaker 2 Right.

25:36 Speaker 1 "Where, you know what we had in, in Russia." And also, um, my mother, one of the things she told me before she passed was that Reb Eliyahu Gross, y- you know, Luchi's father and Nuti's father, Itche-Ber, Gross they're-

25:52 Speaker 2 Right. All right

25:53 Speaker 1 You know, so-

25:53 Speaker 2 This one that lives here, right?

25:54 Speaker 1 Used to live here.

25:55 Speaker 2 That they moved?

25:56 Speaker 1 M- moved back to Crown Heights.

25:57 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

25:58 Speaker 1 Crown Heights. It's either Florida or Crown Heights.

26:01 Speaker 2 All right

26:01 Speaker 1 Or Arizona, you know.

26:02 Speaker 2 You're, you're f-

26:03 Speaker 1 I'm one of-

26:03 Speaker 2 You're from the, you're from the survivors

26:04 Speaker 1 I'm one of the survivors, even though it's getting tough. But I'm one of the survivors. Um, but I remember specifically my mother telling, uh, telling me recent as, recent as three, four years ago that the Rebbe used-- took the M- Reb Gross and, uh, who were this gentleman from America, sharp looking. Luchi actually showed me some of the pictures, and, uh, the Rebbe told him, you know, "It's hard for the immigrants to make the transition. Help them out." You know? So, so it was... There was the past, but there was the future.

26:46 Speaker 2 Right.

26:47 Speaker 1 And there was now, and by no means can I, even I, can forget the past, where it was from, you know? You do have folks today in, in Lubavitch that say, you know, "Forget Russia. Forget where it all started. Today, it's a different world. It's a different kufa."

27:04 Speaker 2 Right.

27:04 Speaker 1 "We wanna look forward. The Rebbe looked forward."

27:07 Speaker 2 Right.

27:08 Speaker 1 You know, maybe in a few generations it's gonna be that way. But right now, you know, we cannot move forward without knowing, without knowing the past.

27:17 Speaker 2 Right.

27:17 Speaker 1 And also, I remember the Rebbetsin, Rebbetsin Nechama Dina. I remember the Rebbe's wife. They all lived in Crown Heights. You know, the Rebbe used to walk to see his mother every single day. And I remember we used to fight who would open the door for her. So, so there was no such thing as the past and the future. It was one big life, except the destination changed. Not the destination, the stage-

27:44 Speaker 2 Right

27:44 Speaker 1 ... changed.

27:45 Speaker 2 Right. No, I think that's a very, I think that's a very important point. And just for people listening, I think we're hearing rain in LA, right?

27:52 Speaker 1 Yes.

27:52 Speaker 2 This is, this is rain.

27:53 Speaker 1 And guess what? It never rains. It never rains, and it never rains in California. Uh, in fact, I hope you made it okay here because normally when it's a rainy day, you know, there's bulletins. "Storm watch. Be careful- "... how you drive."

28:10 Speaker 2 Well, we'll see. We'll see. Hopefully I'll get out of here p- um, okay before shabbos. But anyway, um-

28:15 Speaker 1 You're welcome to

28:16 Speaker 2 Thank you. I appreciate it. Um, no, so I, I think it, it's, it's so interesting because what we're talking about is that this, this, this idea that you're talking about of being able to not, like, be, uh, held hostage by the past, but to hold onto the past even as you're looking to the future, and the fact that some people say, you know, "Let go of it. Just, you know, forget about Russia. Forget about the old thing." A, a lot of people would also kinda classify that as, like, the, the people that are gesht, making a whole thing out of being gesht, and everybody's like, "Get a grip." You know? Like, "S- stop lording that over us." You know, I'm in, I'm in the kind of interesting position where on one hand I am technically from gesher families, but on the other hand, I didn't know about it till I grew up, so, like, I don't really care about it. It wasn't something that I, that... I grew up in Hong Kong. Y- y-

29:08 Speaker 1 You ca- you came to the wrong address.

29:10 Speaker 2 No, no, no.

29:11 Speaker 1 I'm gesher, and I'm proud of it.

29:13 Speaker 2 No, no, but I'm saying-

29:14 Speaker 1 But yes

29:14 Speaker 2 ... I'm saying that I-

29:15 Speaker 1 I, I do, I do relate to what you're saying

29:17 Speaker 2 ... what I'm saying is, is that I, I, on one hand, I can relate to what you're saying, but on the other hand, I can also look at it from a distance, right? And, like... And I, like, I think in many ways that debate about gesher, not gesher misses a point where it's not a ma- it's not one or the other. Like, in every community you're gonna have different groups or different parts of the community that focus on different parts, and that's actually the beauty of a community because nobody-- there isn't-- e- every s- individual is not able to do everything, right? So everybody has their kind of focus, and together they make a community that works, right? And so the same thing here, where you have some families that they're very into being gesher. Okay. You wanna, you know, you wanna laugh at it. You wanna say they're taking themselves too seriously. Maybe. But at the sa- whatever you say about it, they are preserving the past. They are, even if it's just for their own reasons, I, I, I'm I, I'm trying to steel man the argument. It's not e- they are, they are preserving the past for everybody else, right?

30:20 Speaker 1 Well, you know, let me ask you a question.

30:21 Speaker 2 I, I know you don't need my defense.

30:23 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

30:23 Speaker 2 What I'm saying is-

30:23 Speaker 1 But I'm a-- I wanna ask you a question.

30:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

30:25 Speaker 1 Do, do we talk about every week in the Parsha about Avraham Avinu-

30:30 Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure

30:30 Speaker 1 ... and Yaakov and all the ma'asis that, that happened?

30:34 Speaker 2 Right.

30:34 Speaker 1 That's our history. That's our past. I, I, I don't... I, I'm not of the opinion that you gotta scream, "Let's go back to Russia" and-

30:42 Speaker 2 Right

30:42 Speaker 1 ... you know. But you gotta know who's who.

30:44 Speaker 2 You gotta know who's who.

30:44 Speaker 1 And, and, and, and gesher means very simple, the, the, the, the branch, the, the foundation, you know?

30:51 Speaker 2 Right. And-

30:51 Speaker 1 Uh, some people think, you know, they're entitled. I don't think I'm entitled as a, as a-

30:56 Speaker 2 Right

30:56 Speaker 1 ... as a gesher member. I'm just-- I feel proud that I was very close to the source.

31:01 Speaker 2 Right.

31:02 Speaker 1 And I got the feeling of the source, and I lived with my zeides, and I lived with my bubbe.

31:07 Speaker 2 Right.

31:07 Speaker 1 And I lived with my parents. And, and it's not about the past. Their whole priority was different. Their expectations were so high.

31:16 Speaker 2 Right.

31:16 Speaker 1 So now comes this generation I try to live the way my parents taught me. My gener- my expectations are going down a little bit because everyone's telling me we're crazy and it doesn't work here today. But I believe that's not only with Lubavitch, that's with the whole world.

31:32 Speaker 2 Right.

31:32 Speaker 1 There's no more expectations. So I don't know how anyone can argue that, that in the world of Lubavitch, okay-

31:40 Speaker 2 Right

31:40 Speaker 1 ... in the world of the Rebbeim. Now, if you wanna talk about, you know, what they taught us, h- by all means. I'm in another city of Lubav- of, of Sluchim every single week. You know, I'm, I, I coach Sluchim on community.

31:54 Speaker 2 Right.

31:54 Speaker 1 So-

31:54 Speaker 2 Right

31:54 Speaker 1 ... I know what it's like. I was in Hong Kong too for a day.

31:58 Speaker 2 Sure.

31:58 Speaker 1 And I spent time with your dad.

32:00 Speaker 2 Right.

32:00 Speaker 1 I was coming from, um-

32:02 Speaker 2 And I remember-

32:02 Speaker 1 ... Kosama- Kosama is-

32:03 Speaker 2 I, I remember him telling me that. It was a few year- it was before COVID.

32:06 Speaker 1 Way before.

32:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

32:07 Speaker 1 Ko- Kosama is this-

32:08 Speaker 2 Kosama is in Thailand.

32:09 Speaker 1 Right. But I stopped in Hong Kong-

32:11 Speaker 2 Sure

32:11 Speaker 1 ... 'cause I had a-

32:12 Speaker 2 Sure. I remember. I remember you told me

32:13 Speaker 1 ... you know.

32:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:14 Speaker 1 You know, Jewish warrior, travel warrior.

32:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

32:16 Speaker 1 So, you know, and I remember and I asked myself, you know, "Is, is Russia building Hong Kong?" No, but the Afsons. What, what your father, uh, saw by, by the famous Afson family and, and, and your mother from, from, from the Shem Tov family. I mean, we saw the source.

32:33 Speaker 2 Right.

32:33 Speaker 1 So why would we wanna, you know... Okay, let's leave it at that. I, I don't-

32:38 Speaker 2 I, I, I-

32:38 Speaker 1 I don't want it to get too personal.

32:40 Speaker 2 No, I think, I think, I think continuity is very, very important. I think continuity is very, very important. Um, I think, I think, you know, it- people p- part-- I think part of the reason, part of kinda the, the tension of like against Gez is like, well, you know, you could be a Hasid without being Gez, so like what are you making a whole deal out of it? And in other words, it's like this abstract... It, it's like you could be an abstract Hasid or, or a Hasid is, is a concept, not a, not located so much in time and place, so why are you making a whole scene out of the fact that you came from Neville? You could be a Lubavitcher in anywhere. And the argument, and, you know, whoever's listening to this, I'm not, I, I am not into being Gez at all. Everybody that knows me knows that. But I think listening to you, what I'm, what I'm appreciating from it is that at least to-- some people need to be holding on to the Lubavitch and the Lubavitch identity that was located in the specific time and place in Russia, 'cause that is what makes it real. That's what makes it human. You're not talking about a concept, you're talking about people that you knew-

33:52 Speaker 1 It's our history

33:52 Speaker 2 ... and people that you love.

33:53 Speaker 1 It's our destination.

33:54 Speaker 2 Right.

33:54 Speaker 1 It's our past.

33:55 Speaker 2 Right. Right. You're talking about real people that means something to you and, and that gives it a shape and that gives it a, a feeling that's very, very real. And is that the whole Lubavitch? Is that the story of the whole Lubavitch? No, that's not the argument, but it's an important part, right?

34:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. The, the, listen, hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth. You know, the Tsug Ikumen, the-

34:16 Speaker 2 Right

34:16 Speaker 1 ... the, the Rebbe wanted to bring the people back to the fold, and can I borrow thousands and thousands of, okay?

34:23 Speaker 2 Right.

34:23 Speaker 1 It's not, it's not a conflict.

34:26 Speaker 2 Right.

34:26 Speaker 1 Okay? They may not know all the history. They learn about Yud Beis Tammuz. They lear- they learn about Chaf Vad. They learn about Yiddishkeit. But, but their parents, their environment, their pictures on the wall. Well, that's wrong because we have pictures of the Rebbe. Anyway, I'm, I'm not that great at this topic because I'm tzugot un tzulayt. I see everything and, and, and I, I, I believe that there is no reason in the world, um, you know, to, you know, not to remember and not to talk about Gesher, uh, you know, the history of the movement. I mean, the movement-

35:04 Speaker 2 Right

35:04 Speaker 1 ... let's not kid ourselves. It took mesirus nefesh.

35:07 Speaker 2 For generations.

35:08 Speaker 1 Okay? For generations. It took, you know, they, they need to know it wasn't, you know, the Rebbeim started first with the Baal Shem Tov and then, and, and then the Alter Rebbe and the Maggid and, and, and there were, there were fights and there were arguments and there was trials and tribulations and against all odds, you know-

35:27 Speaker 2 Right

35:27 Speaker 1 ... we have what we have today.

35:29 Speaker 2 Right.

35:29 Speaker 1 Doesn't it come from w- you know, wouldn't you call that a, you know, a little bit, uh, the history of, of, you know, we're gra- we're grateful. Thank you, Hashem. Um, and, and, and, and, and the whole Yom Tov of, uh, that we just recently celebrated, Yud Tes Kislev, is, is, is that episode.

35:47 Speaker 2 Right.

35:47 Speaker 1 You know? It, it's, it's then it happened then. Hey, Tevis just happened. I remember Hey Tevis.

35:54 Speaker 2 Right.

35:54 Speaker 1 Okay? Hey Tevis. They brought the boxes to 770. Uh, I think Yud Tes Kislev was 20 times bigger because they lived it and, and they saw it and maybe we have a perception of those dates.

36:08 Speaker 2 Right.

36:08 Speaker 1 So it's not really about... And, and I'm really sorry that I, I may not feed into or I may not be, you know, going right into this conversation because I don't want it to become personal or, or things like that. Um, I, I, I believe that, uh, you have to know where you're coming from. The Mishnah says you have to know where you're going from. Yes, Chabad is moving ahead.

36:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's not personal at all.

36:31 Speaker 1 It's, it's-

36:31 Speaker 2 I don't see, I don't see it as-

36:32 Speaker 1 Okay. Because I've gotten into a lot of personal, you know-

36:35 Speaker 2 Well, 'cause I think that's-

36:35 Speaker 1 ... discussions

36:36 Speaker 2 ... that's, that's why I'm bringing it up. That's why I'm dis- that's why I'm trying to, to kind of analyze it because I think the personal thing is, is a result of people seeing it as an either/or question where like Lubavitch-

36:49 Speaker 1 It's definitely not a, a... Definitely. I will agree that it's definitely not, um-

36:53 Speaker 2 Right. And I think that's where people go wrong, where it's like, "Oh, so you're saying you're Gez therefore I'm second class." No, that's not the, that's not the point. The point is that this is an important part of the story Uh, you know, the, the, not just the history of ideas, Lubavitch ideas and Chabad ideas, but the history of the Lubavitch communities in Russia, and the families that came from there, and the generational connections. This is a very important part of the story, and the people that came from there are clearly gonna be more connected to that story than others. That doesn't mean that if you don't come from there, you don't have a place. You also have a place.

37:27 Speaker 1 Okay, listen-

37:28 Speaker 2 That, that, that's what I'm saying.

37:29 Speaker 1 I get it. I get it.

37:29 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying, and I, and I think, I think, I think, you know, even as someone who never really cared about the whole Gesher thing personally-

37:37 Speaker 1 Now, don't say you didn't care 'cause you did care

37:39 Speaker 2 ... I didn't know about it till I was a teenager.

37:41 Speaker 1 Okay, but you, you know, the w- Okay, I get it, but Zeide-

37:45 Speaker 2 Now, who my Gesher compared to? To, to Yong Xingyan and, and, and, you know, and a bunch of other Chinese people in Hong Kong.

37:51 Speaker 1 No, you guys have... Yeah, come on. You have to have it.

37:52 Speaker 2 No, but compared to who? Compared to who?

37:54 Speaker 1 Well, okay. Okay. Actually, I get it.

37:57 Speaker 2 Compared to who?

37:57 Speaker 1 But, but listen-

37:59 Speaker 2 Nobody in Hong Kong cared that I was Gesher. Nobody.

38:02 Speaker 1 Okay. And nobody cares in Atlanta, Georgia. Nobody cares in, in-

38:07 Speaker 2 You say-

38:07 Speaker 1 ... Dallas, Texas, but I care, and you care. Now you care. Now you, you know a little bit. You're on your own. You care, okay? It's, it's a lack of knowledge, and also we grew up with the present world. We had the Rebbe with us physically.

38:21 Speaker 2 Right.

38:21 Speaker 1 And if you look how, how the Rebbe used to lead a farbrengen or even kosel bracha by the end, you know, you had the, the, the American Yankee who would stand there and, you know, the, the, the coach.

38:36 Speaker 2 Right.

38:36 Speaker 1 What's his name? I don't know his name.

38:38 Speaker 2 Right.

38:38 Speaker 1 And then you had the old Hasid, Rabbi Nemanov sitting downstairs, and then you had a hippie that came in and, you know, they all came from different backgrounds-

38:47 Speaker 2 D-

38:47 Speaker 1 ... but we had one common denominator that we're by the Rebbe.

38:50 Speaker 2 There's room for everybody.

38:51 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh, there's not only room for anything, and I personally believe it's the Leigerers that, that, uh, that, that like to say, you know, like they w- like, you know, they wanna give you a little pinch. I, I, you know, once they're educated, but practically speaking, I happen to agree with you. I mean, when I sit with Balabata, wherever it is, like I said, and d- for sure there's no conversation. You know, the Shliach may introduce me that I'm one of the originals, you know, but, uh, just as a conversation, but are you kidding? There are guys out there today that, that put, put Gesherniks in, in the world of, of practical reality and, and education. You know, we were farmers. I'm not gonna disagree with that. I mean, when I say farmers, our environment was that kind of environment, and yet against, instead of using it negative, it's positive. Give a look what, what we are accomplishing now in this world.

39:44 Speaker 2 Right.

39:45 Speaker 1 So, um-

39:47 Speaker 2 You were farmers back in Russia is what you're saying.

39:48 Speaker 1 I'm talking about, you know-

39:49 Speaker 2 No, you're not talking about the, the, the, like the pejorative of like farmers in Crown Heights. You're saying farmers.

39:56 Speaker 1 By the way, I'm Farmer Feivel. I don't know if you know that, but-

39:59 Speaker 2 You're Farmer Feivel

39:59 Speaker 1 ... I like to, you know, uh, whatever influences kids.

40:03 Speaker 2 Yeah.

40:04 Speaker 1 It's only, it's only a positive thing. I don't even think it's a discussion today, um, you know, unless it's a policy case. I'm very far from making policy. I don't know what, what, uh, policy is.

40:16 Speaker 2 Well, i- i- do people care about Gesher anymore like they used to? Probably not, but I think, I think conceptually it, there is kind of a debate. I don't, I can't even say it's a debate 'cause it's not held in a formal way, but there are a difference of opin- there is a difference of opinion where, to me at least, where there's s- some people or many people who like to see Lubavitch as a more abstract thing, like i- ideas. And I think that what, what the, in the, in the defense of Gesher, which I can't even believe that that's what I'm doing here-

40:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think you came for, to the wrong address for that because

40:52 Speaker 2 But I'm defending it.

40:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

40:53 Speaker 2 I'm defending it. In the defense of Gesher, it preserves an important part of Lubavitch identity. Y- you may, you may say some people overdo it and, and make it too much. Fine. H- but, but it's, you cannot say that it's not very, very important.

41:08 Speaker 1 You're talking 70, 80 years. You're, that, you know, you're talking of people that are alive that, that were there. I mean-

41:14 Speaker 2 Right

41:15 Speaker 1 ... I, I don't even know how, how, you know, it's even a question.

41:18 Speaker 2 Right.

41:19 Speaker 1 But I can tell you one thing.

41:21 Speaker 2 Right.

41:21 Speaker 1 When I'm heading to the airport to go to a certain makom haShlichus-

41:24 Speaker 2 Right

41:25 Speaker 1 ... um, I don't think that I'm Gesher, okay? And I'm-

41:28 Speaker 2 And you don't care if the other guy is or isn't.

41:29 Speaker 1 Is not Gesher or Gesher.

41:31 Speaker 2 You don't care.

41:31 Speaker 1 Okay. We have-

41:31 Speaker 2 You don't care. You don't care.

41:32 Speaker 1 No. By all means not. You know? So it's, it's, it's those, what's that famous thing? There are people that, uh, um, wake up in the morning, and they, they ask themselves, you know, "What happened today?" Or the next guy says, "How do we make it happen?" And, you know, and then there are guy that make it happen, you know? Anyone that sits around and talks about, you know, Gesher and, and, and things like that are one of those people, you know?

41:58 Speaker 2 So, so let me flip, so let me flip the conversation.

42:00 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you. I was waiting for you to flip. This is such a hot topic, especially in Los Angeles.

42:07 Speaker 2 All right.

42:07 Speaker 1 Most of my friends don't even know what Gesher is. Actually-

42:09 Speaker 2 So why would it be a hot topic? They wouldn't care

42:11 Speaker 1 ... but, but they know because, you know, the chief rabbi in Dubai, which was the hottest, it probably was, is still, you know, is Duchman.

42:19 Speaker 2 Right.

42:19 Speaker 1 You know, the Chabad's best fundraiser. My f- my, my father, my father was a good fundraiser too.

42:25 Speaker 2 Oh, oh, was he?

42:26 Speaker 1 Well, he had Ezra Sacim, you know?

42:28 Speaker 2 Okay.

42:29 Speaker 1 You know, when you talk about, you just reminded me-

42:30 Speaker 2 Generations of fundraisers

42:31 Speaker 1 ... in that generation, by the way, no, not at all. It's more like, um, friend-raising. It's not fundraising. It's friend-raising.

42:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:40 Speaker 1 It's, it's getting people simchas habayim.

42:43 Speaker 2 Right.

42:43 Speaker 1 But you talk about generations, the, the people would, would-- You talk about an old generation, a new generation, and that generation, and we grew up with it. My father, uh, Rab Mendel Shemtov, your, your uncle, Rabbi, half of 770, they'd fin- half of Crown Heights, they'd finish work at 4:00, and they would go to Ohel Torah to, to help it ru- to help run Ohel Torah, and Beis Rivkah and Ezra Sacim and all the local communities. They weren't paid people.

43:12 Speaker 2 Right.

43:12 Speaker 1 They knew that they, it was f- Okay. So today we expanded, and it got a lot bigger, and there's more-

43:18 Speaker 2 Right

43:18 Speaker 1 ... experience. I'm not using it as a negative. I'm using it as a positive. Our priorities-

43:24 Speaker 2 It's-

43:24 Speaker 1 ... our way of life

43:25 Speaker 2 ... it's very important, though. It's very important what you're talking about, I have to say. I mean, not that I, not, not that you need my, my, um- Not that you need my approval, but-

43:33 Speaker 1 Validation

43:34 Speaker 2 ... you don't need my validation.

43:35 Speaker 1 By the way, validations is for a parking lot, you know that. I don't need a validation from Ed. Well, actually-

43:40 Speaker 2 Well, I know better than to give a Duchman validation. But, but, but-- or to think that I can give... But my, my, my point is more that there's so much, like, there's so much kind of, uh, talk of, "Oh, Crown Heights was never a community." Right? "Crown Heights was just, you know, like was always-- there was never a community here. There's..." And I think, I think that goes back to the idea of, like, there's this-- And I, I even know that I've sometimes thought of it this way, like, Lubavitch doesn't know what it means to have a community 'cause we're a bunch of, a bunch of-

44:11 Speaker 1 Farmers.

44:12 Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Farmers and a bunch of, a bunch of, like, people brutalized by Stalin and, like, you know. There's even that famous line, I think Menofte Fas is attributed to Menofte Fas, although it's unfair that he, that he's so famously connected to this line, I think. But said, like, Lubavitchers are, are like manure, where, like, if you spread them out, it, it, it grows. It, it helps grow the vegetables.

44:35 Speaker 1 I don't like these words.

44:35 Speaker 2 But in a, but in a-

44:36 Speaker 1 I'm gonna show you the door.

44:37 Speaker 2 But in a, but in a pile, it stinks to high heavens. And, like, it's always like Lubavitchers are, are better not in a community than in a community, and that's such a cynical, destructive take, right? And when you say even, like, this kind of thing, and maybe it's even a little bit romanticized, I don't care. The fact-- the, the, the history that you're remembering is your parents and others like them being Mashgiach in the community of Crown Heights because they believed that there should be a community in Crown Heights. There should be a Lubavitch community here, even if they weren't necessarily on Shlichas for whatever reason. There was a concept of a Lubavitch community, and that-

45:11 Speaker 1 Can't see Vash-- Can, can't see Vashem. The Rebbe said that this is... Listen, what-

45:16 Speaker 2 But again, you see, again.

45:18 Speaker 1 What-

45:18 Speaker 2 That, that, that's an idea. That's-

45:20 Speaker 1 It's not an idea. It's-

45:21 Speaker 2 For a lot of people, it's an idea.

45:22 Speaker 1 I don't care about a lot of people.

45:24 Speaker 2 Okay.

45:24 Speaker 1 I was there.

45:25 Speaker 2 Okay. That's what I like-

45:25 Speaker 1 And I lived on Eastern Parkway between Troy and Albany.

45:28 Speaker 2 Right.

45:29 Speaker 1 I couldn't walk past Troy Avenue today.

45:32 Speaker 2 Right.

45:32 Speaker 1 It was a miserable neighborhood. Jews were getting killed. I remember as a little kid walking by Levias of, of, of, of, of, of, uh, Okinov, Oliver Shalom, a classmate of ours, actually.

45:46 Speaker 2 You're talking, you're talking about before the riots.

45:48 Speaker 1 I'm talking about way before the riots.

45:50 Speaker 2 The-

45:50 Speaker 1 Growing up in the '60s.

45:51 Speaker 2 When, when, when this neighborhood started to change for the worse.

45:54 Speaker 1 Yes, and everybody ran away.

45:55 Speaker 2 Right.

45:55 Speaker 1 But, but it was a beautiful neighborhood, and the Rebbe believed. And again, you know, personally, I'm at a great loss without having the Rebbe physically, okay?

46:07 Speaker 2 Right.

46:08 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe kept all this on the, on his shoulders. Crown Heights is where the Berachos are, and you don't leave it, and you roll up your sleeves, and the proof is in the pudding.

46:21 Speaker 2 Right.

46:21 Speaker 1 Because every shul that was there, whether it's Chasam Sofer, whether it's, um, Empire Shtiebel, whether it's Young Israel of Eastern Parkway that used to be across the street, there's a whole community today 'cause we didn't run away.

46:33 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

46:35 Speaker 1 So I, I'm not sure... Well, I, you know, spending a little time with you, I, I'm realizing, you know, the, the, the Lubavitch connection and, and, and would you say there's a generation gap between me and you?

46:50 Speaker 2 Well, by definition there is. I, I hope it's not too pronounced.

46:54 Speaker 1 No.

46:54 Speaker 2 Uh, but there is a-- I mean, there's a generation gap, there's a geographic gap.

46:59 Speaker 1 Okay.

46:59 Speaker 2 I, I certainly didn't grow up in your time and in your place, but I understand where you're coming from.

47:05 Speaker 1 Okay.

47:06 Speaker 2 So I hope it's not too pronounced. I, I understand very much where you're coming from. I appreciate what you're saying also, because I think, I think, you know, growing up there could be this idea of Crown Heights as conservation as a Beracha, as a, only as a Inyan Ruhni, right? As a Inyan Ruhni. The Rebbe said it as a Inyan Ruhni, and therefore... And that's true. But there's also people that came from their own, their communities of the past, and they brought that with them, too. And that, that's what together made this community flourish, and I think it's very important.

47:37 Speaker 1 Oh, there you go. Done with. No, I'm just kidding. Yes.

47:39 Speaker 2 But that, exactly, that you were saying earlier.

47:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent.

47:40 Speaker 2 And I think that's very, I think that's very important because I think that, I think... Okay. I, I, I, I think Lubavitch was always there's Re- there's a Rebbe and there's Chassidim. Like, there was never a pa-- a time in Lubavitch where there was only a Rebbe, no Chassidim. There was always both, right?

47:57 Speaker 1 A Rebbe cannot be a Rebbe without Chassidim.

47:59 Speaker 2 Right. By definition.

48:01 Speaker 1 Yes.

48:01 Speaker 2 By definition. So, so this to me is a history of the Chassidim, right? And I think that's-- I just think it's very important. That's all I'm saying.

48:09 Speaker 1 Okay.

48:10 Speaker 2 Um, again, I know you don't need my validation, but I-

48:13 Speaker 1 No, I, I-

48:13 Speaker 2 I, I, I think from where I'm coming from, where I, going into this conversation, I probably was a little bit more skeptical about the whole Geze thing. I'm just explaining why I've, what I've appreciated over the course of the conversation. I think there, I think it's, it-- there's clearly, there's a lot more, uh, there's a lot more impact that it has than one might think, and it's very, very important. So I wanted to flip the conversation a little bit.

48:39 Speaker 1 It's about time.

48:42 Speaker 2 It's about time. Well, we-- Look, I can't come to a Duchman's house and not grill a little bit about Geze. You can't. Look, you, you, if, you know, you gotta take what you give.

48:52 Speaker 1 By the way, by the way, you know, the Shalom Bayis in this house, you have the Duchman and my father, all of the Shalom Bayis.

49:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. I didn't know if I should bring it up.

49:01 Speaker 1 No, wait, wait, wait. Just for, just for the sense of the conversation.

49:04 Speaker 2 Right. I didn't know if I should bring it up.

49:05 Speaker 1 You could bring it up, but we're not gonna spend too much time at it because I wanna come back to home after work today, okay?

49:11 Speaker 2 Right.

49:11 Speaker 1 But, uh, you know, there's the American Chassidim and there's the Chassidim. There was always-

49:16 Speaker 2 Now your father, just for people listening.

49:17 Speaker 1 Rabbi J.J. Hecht.

49:19 Speaker 2 Sure.

49:19 Speaker 1 Of Yaakov Yehuda Hecht and W.E.B.D.

49:22 Speaker 2 Very proudly not Geze.

49:23 Speaker 1 Very proudly not Geze, you know, until I came into the family. But, uh, very proudly... I, I don't think-- Yes. Yeah. There was a-- I wouldn't say very proudly not Geze, but-

49:35 Speaker 2 Ve-very American

49:36 Speaker 1 ... American Chassidim.

49:37 Speaker 2 Right.

49:37 Speaker 1 We are the American Chassidim. Listen, there's no question that, that, that there were certain issues there.

49:42 Speaker 2 Sure.

49:42 Speaker 1 And they come from two different backgrounds, you know? You know what I'm saying? It's, it's-

49:46 Speaker 2 How did your, how did your parents get along with your wife-- with your, with your in-laws?

49:50 Speaker 1 They were their biggest fans. I mean, they, they had, uh-

49:54 Speaker 2 Oh, but do you have, like, an inter-interesting story of, like-

49:57 Speaker 1 How they got-

49:57 Speaker 2 ... uh, Rabbi and Mrs. Duchman Sr. meeting Rabbi and Mrs. Hecht Sr., like?

50:02 Speaker 1 Well, you have to understand, before we were family, we were admirers and, and fans of their, you know, their, their public picture.

50:11 Speaker 2 Of Rabbi J., of Rabbi J.J.

50:11 Speaker 1 Sure. And a national committee for-

50:13 Speaker 2 So your father never looked down on the American Chassidim?

50:16 Speaker 1 Are you kidding? My father was-

50:16 Speaker 2 Right

50:17 Speaker 1 ... the, my... Oh, he would give them a little elbow, of course. He'd give them-- Uh, till his dying day, he was giving a little elbow.

50:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

50:24 Speaker 1 But not because... First of all, he's proud. Okay, we're getting back to the discussion.

50:28 Speaker 2 No, no, no. I'm good with it.

50:28 Speaker 1 But I wanted to just prove to you and tell you that my, my whole being, my whole life, and my beautiful children, and families, and «Elte, elte eyniklach, ur eyniklach» are, are discussing, you know, this Yahu. This is an American family, one of the «chosheve»... I mean, listen, we don't have to talk about the six Hecht, uh, brothers, you know, what the Rebbe turned them into, to major, major Chassidim.

50:55 Speaker 2 Sure.

50:55 Speaker 1 I mean, so, uh, we live it, we see it.

50:59 Speaker 2 I, I, I've had Shmulie on the podcast.

51:01 Speaker 1 Um, Shmu-

51:02 Speaker 2 From New Haven.

51:03 Speaker 1 Oh.

51:05 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:05 Speaker 1 You did?

51:06 Speaker 2 Yeah, Shmulie's-

51:06 Speaker 1 Oh

51:06 Speaker 2 ... Shmulie's a good friend.

51:07 Speaker 1 Shmulie. Shmulie is my nephew.

51:09 Speaker 2 Of course.

51:09 Speaker 1 If I knew you had him, I would... Nah, I'm just kidding. Shmulie is, is a-- Shmulie's Shmulie. He's one of a kind. Listen, we're not discussing the Mishpachas Hecht. They're phenomenal people.

51:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:18 Speaker 1 So, uh, I'm just trying to compare the two families-

51:22 Speaker 2 No, but-

51:22 Speaker 1 ... two different backgrounds.

51:23 Speaker 2 No, I, I think it's a very important historical anecdote to talk about how Rabbi Duchin Senior, Rabbi Yisroel Duchin, the famous gezhe-- the, the, the, the icon of Lubavitch gezhekeit being an admirer of JJ Hecht. I think it's important. I think-

51:38 Speaker 1 That, that, that-

51:38 Speaker 2 ... I think it's a valuable insight

51:40 Speaker 1 ... that, that says it all.

51:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:41 Speaker 1 You know why? 'Cause they focused on, on tachlis.

51:46 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

51:48 Speaker 1 My shvayer was a shaker and a mover, got things done. The Rebbe said, you know, "There are th- three Chassidim."

51:54 Speaker 2 Right.

51:54 Speaker 1 "Tuchas Chassidim know, uh, when he wants something to get done, he tells the Tuchas Chassidim, and then there's a Chassid that, uh, even before he tells them what needs to be done," you know? But my, my, my-- They didn't look at titles. They looked at, at Chassidim and who would... Anyway, okay.

52:11 Speaker 2 Yeah.

52:11 Speaker 1 Let's move on.

52:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. So-

52:12 Speaker 1 Bottom line is we have «sholom bayis» and we have an American family and a Chassidisha family. You know, we're together.

52:20 Speaker 2 Right.

52:20 Speaker 1 I'm not gonna say by sheva berachos or by, uh, the shalom zachars there wouldn't be a little, you know-

52:26 Speaker 2 Yeah

52:27 Speaker 1 ... boom, boom, boom. But shalom al Yisroel.

52:29 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. Don't, don't, don't take the, the, the friendly kind of, you know, banter and, and, and turn that into a, a color war, right? Don't, don't, don't overdo it.

52:42 Speaker 1 Actually, this sounds like color war.

52:43 Speaker 2 No, no, no. I, I, I, I think you're taking me wrong. I'm not trying to put you on the defensive.

52:48 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. I'm s-

52:49 Speaker 2 I thi- I think, I think, I think, I think, you know, judging from conversations I've had, I think, I think it's important to clarify and, and, and, and help express actually your point, not so much the other point. Um, but I do wanna flip it because we've been talking a lot about how you think of where your grandparents came-- where your parents came from, where your grandparents came from, the pride that you have in your history, which I think is very, very, um, meaningful and very important. How do you see... I know it's a very, maybe an unfair question to ask, but how do you see your grandkids? You have already many grandkids and great-grandkids, right? How do you see them looking back at, at, it's unfair to say looking back at you, but looking back at your generation and their, their lineage? Like, what do you think, what do you think is distinct about... Like, you don't have a Neville. Do you have a Los Angeles? Like, what, what is it that you're giving over?

53:49 Speaker 1 Lubavitch Chassidim.

53:50 Speaker 2 Right.

53:50 Speaker 1 Shloche. Not that we're shluchim, but we are Lubavitchers. And, and you know when-

53:56 Speaker 2 What does that mean? What does that mean in, in like-

53:58 Speaker 1 In Los Angeles?

53:58 Speaker 2 What does that mean in like this, in this generation, in your generation? 'Cause, 'cause you're talking about your grandparents.

54:04 Speaker 1 Come on. Let, let's-

54:04 Speaker 2 You have a very defined-

54:05 Speaker 1 Let, let's, let's face it.

54:07 Speaker 2 Right.

54:07 Speaker 1 Since October 7th and, you know, and, and even during COVID. I mean, Lubavitch, which by the way is Chabad, and, and, and is up there. They're in the forefronts of, of, of, of, of Judaism. It's very simple. The Rebbe changed the, the landscape of world Jewry. I, I don't care what anybody says. Now, before you separate Lubavitch and Chabad, and old and new, you know, I don't talk to my children about the past. I mean, you know, they, they, they used to talk-- They did an interview with my mother before she passed. They wanted all the stories.

54:45 Speaker 2 Right.

54:45 Speaker 1 Every so often they tell us the stories. But they're moving ahead. And, and guess what? If anything, I'm pushing the past because this generation is becoming... You know, I tell my children all, all the time when they-- When, when «kinayneh harah» Hashem blesses them with grandchildren, I say, "I feel bad for them." I feel bad for the next generation.

55:07 Speaker 2 Why?

55:07 Speaker 1 Because the world is crazy. The world is absolutely crazy.

55:11 Speaker 2 Worse than Stalin?

55:12 Speaker 1 Uh, no, because it's a different... Well, I, um, I, n- Yeah, yeah. I think it's, you know, we're living pri- There's so much against us. There's-- The world is in an instant world. Um, the instant gratification, validation and, and, and, you know, I wasn't so prepared for this, but I just, uh, for this question-

55:36 Speaker 2 It, it, it, it makes it more believable.

55:37 Speaker 1 Okay, that's fine. I firmly believe, really, I firmly believe that if we don't connect the past and we don't talk to our kids about the past, w- w- you know, they're, they're just gonna, you know, it's just gonna disappear.

55:55 Speaker 2 Right.

55:55 Speaker 1 As it is, it, it's disappearing.

55:58 Speaker 2 I think it's true. I, I, I... That's what I've been trying to agree with you and of-- and kind of reinforce. But I-- My c- At some point, your present becomes their past, right? Like I think your past is important to you, and it's important for you to share it with your kids. Very understandable. But at some point, there's a next generation who doesn't remember your past. They remember their past, which is your-- which is you. So I, I, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying that today, you know, the, the Yerushalayit say that the Lubavitcher kid has is not a, you know, this quaint little village in Nevel, but it's this global movement of Lubavitch. It's, it's a real thing. I, I grew up in Hong Kong. I, I'm I'm very, very familiar with-

56:41 Speaker 1 No, I, I understand what you're saying, but I, I wanna-

56:42 Speaker 2 But don't, don't they need, don't they need something personal like Zeidy Duchman? This was a kind of man he was. This was the kind of community he was a part of. This is what they believed in. And then your kids and your grandkids can tell their kids that this is what it used to be, right?

57:00 Speaker 1 Yes.

57:00 Speaker 2 The same way that you feel that they need your past and-

57:02 Speaker 1 Listen, I don't come to the toes of my father.

57:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:06 Speaker 1 But because there was so much expectations from us, as Chassidim from the Alter Rebbe, and even the Rebbe. The Rebbe always had, you know, people would come over for dollars. There's thousands and thousands of videos, and they'd give the Rebbe sefer-

57:22 Speaker 2 Right

57:22 Speaker 1 ... and say, "I wanna give you a present." And the Rebbe would say, "When is the next sefer?"

57:26 Speaker 2 Right.

57:26 Speaker 1 Or the big Balabus says, "I just gave the Shliach a million dollars." And the Rebbe said, "And what is with the second million?"

57:33 Speaker 2 Right.

57:33 Speaker 1 You know, those were expectations, and I believe firmly.

57:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:38 Speaker 1 Let's say if my parents had expectations at ninety percent, I'm coming in at seventy percent. And my kids, let's say at fifty percent. Thank God, I'm, I'm thankful to Hashem that most of my-- that all of my children are, Kinayin Hara, following in the ways. And, and I see that they kochims in the Rebbe even though they never saw the Rebbe. They, they kocht it. It's in their DNA.

58:04 Speaker 2 Mm.

58:05 Speaker 1 I, I don't think-- Yeah, DN- DNA is an, an important thing, you know. We're losing a lot of kids. We're losing a lot of, uh, you know, uh, what do they call? Outreach and etry-- in-reach, not just in Lubavitch. But I believe the past-- Okay, anyway, I give up. Go ahead.

58:22 Speaker 2 No, no, I, I, I think it's important. I think, I think it's an important, I think it's an important point you're talking about. Look, I am not trying to push you into a conversation that you're not comfortable having. That's not the goal of the podcast.

58:31 Speaker 1 By the way, I, I wanna just say one thing. I'm-- I don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm a Duchman, okay? I don't mean to interrupt you.

58:38 Speaker 2 Okay.

58:38 Speaker 1 But you're a Shemtov, so come on. Let's have a hand wrestle.

58:41 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:42 Speaker 1 I-

58:42 Speaker 2 Yeah

58:43 Speaker 1 ... it, it's a sensitive conversation. I believe in pad'yon, pick yourself-- which is a Russian word. Pick yourself up and go. It's about the future and getting things done, and I think whatever we talked about is very important, and it is important. Um, but

59:04 Speaker 2 No, 'cause I, I'm not-- I, look, I'm not trying to, to, to make, to, to, um, make you talk about something that you don't wanna talk about. Um, but-

59:13 Speaker 1 By the way, I wanna talk about anything you wanna talk about.

59:15 Speaker 2 All right. So great.

59:16 Speaker 1 So let's-

59:16 Speaker 2 So, no, so, so-

59:17 Speaker 1 So let's

59:18 Speaker 2 No. So I, I think, I think-- No, 'cause I, I think you brought up a very, very interesting point, and it, it can become a little bit of a, uh, a difficult conversation to have. And this is probably where the generational gap does come more into play because, you know, you said something where-- you just said something where, you know, "My parents had ninety percent, and I have seventy percent, and my kids will have fifty percent." Well, fifty percent isn't terrible, right? But if you, if-

59:42 Speaker 1 By the way, by the way, I have to throw it out there. The young Chassidim-

59:47 Speaker 2 Right

59:47 Speaker 1 ... the, the, the Lubavitch, the Yeshivas-

59:51 Speaker 2 Right

59:51 Speaker 1 ... they're, they're more than a hundred percent.

59:54 Speaker 2 Ah.

59:54 Speaker 1 Uh, based on, on other-- You know, they, they're doing-- They never saw the real-

59:59 Speaker 2 So, so, so that's what I was trying to get to because if we see it just as like everybody's trying to hold on to a past that's slipping further and further away, so maybe fifty percent isn't gefarlykh, but fifty percent will turn to thirty percent, will turn to ten percent, and, and, and eventually it's over, right? So it's not-

1:00:15 Speaker 1 But the fact is it's not. So-

1:00:16 Speaker 2 No, no, I understand. I, I, I-

1:00:18 Speaker 1 The fact is it's not over because if you look at the today's Basher-

1:00:20 Speaker 2 I'm not suggesting, I'm not suggesting you said that. I'm just trying to k- kind of focus on that a little bit. I think that's why, that's why I asked the other q- the earlier question of, like y- clearly it can't be that we just give over to our kids the memories of our zaydes and bubbes, right? Because then you will end up where it just kind of fizzles away over time and goes from ninety percent to, to, to-

1:00:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay

1:00:44 Speaker 2 ... to nothing.

1:00:44 Speaker 1 That was-- I get it. Okay.

1:00:45 Speaker 2 So, so that's why I'm asking, what do you feel? What, what is the thing that you most want to convey to your, to your children? What is, what is, what is, what is the-- What i- what is your generation's message? Your generation's-

1:01:03 Speaker 1 We are following the ways of our Rabbeim. There were seven Rabbeim, and we follow their minhagim and their way of life. No matter where the stage is, we are the people living in that stage, and that's why demographics change. When, when radio came out, there was meetings, "It's gonna ruin the people." The Rebbe embraced radio. Then television came out. I remember the tractor-trailer, you know, with the radar, um, what are they called? The transponders to follow. So yes, they, they will change. Um, but we're gonna embrace those changes. We're gonna bring positivity. I almost feel bad about the few negatives that I said because in the proof-- the proof is that when you look where we are today, you know, there are yeshivas, there are bachurim. You walk into Seven Seventy, you walk into Crown Heights, you walk into the communities, it's booming.

1:02:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:13 Speaker 1 I don't even think it's a discussion.

1:02:15 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah, there, you know, there, uh, uh, I, I'm not so surprised. I think a, I think your kind of the, the optimism together with a little bit of concern is very common. I think it's very common, I think, 'cause I think both of them are true, right? There is a, there is a sense that you look around, you're like, "Who would've thought that this would be like this?" And only, what is it, 70, 80 short years after, after near devastation, uh, there are so many people that are-- so many communities and so many moshes and so on. There's for sure a optimistic message there. There's no question about it. But then at the same time, there's reasons for concern, and it's not, it's not one or the other. They're both true, and I think a lot of people resonate to that. Uh, a lot of people resonate to that. May-maybe if I can ask a question a little bit differently. I know that you, you, a lot of your work today is with shluchim, right? And, and, and you, you're very, you're, you're ver- you're keenly aware of the, the, the success and the strength of shluchim around the world. But you also live in LA in a community that's not just shluchim, right? It's, it's a-

1:03:28 Speaker 1 Well, I have a business. I, my bills get paid by my, uh, you know, my, the bus- my manufacturing plant that I have and I run. So it's not-

1:03:37 Speaker 2 Right. So you're, you're saying you yourself are a businessman.

1:03:38 Speaker 1 I s- yeah, of course.

1:03:39 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:39 Speaker 1 I, I see, you know, that that pays the bills, but it doesn't pay the passion.

1:03:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:44 Speaker 1 The only way, you know, passion is when you're part of, of what your upbringing was.

1:03:49 Speaker 2 So what do you think, what do you think is the identity of Lubavitch today, someone who isn't a shliach? And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to somehow, um, like put shluchim to the side. The reason I'm asking that is because shluchim, I feel like in many ways sh-shluchim know what they're supposed to be doing. Like it's very clear what it means to be a shliach in, in, in, in, to a large extent. But what, what's less clear is what it means to be a, a proud, you know, quote unquote, "nevel in America Lubavitcher" who's not a shliach but is a proud Lubavitcher. How do you see that?

1:04:26 Speaker 1 It, it-- Which part?

1:04:28 Speaker 2 The, the, just being a Lubavitcher.

1:04:29 Speaker 1 I, I can only tell you, I, I had a, a, you know, I break bread with non-Lubavitchers more than I do with Lubavitchers, okay?

1:04:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:38 Speaker 1 Either they wanna keep close to Lubavitch or they like the conversation. And just yesterday, a, a, a, a, a, a very distinguished attorney, uh, we were, uh, breaking lunch, breaking bread, and, um, you know, he said to me, "I don't understand. Since October 7th, there's this committee, there's this, uh, there is this Vaad Harabonim, and this, there's this, and there's that, but Chabad is, is number one. They're, they're way ahead." This wasn't coming from a Lubavitcher. Those are the facts.

1:05:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:05:12 Speaker 1 They're just so much advanced in, in, in world Jewry and in, and all these remote pla- like they're the power of, of where world Jewry is, okay?

1:05:21 Speaker 2 What if you're not, what if you're not, what if you're not on the forefront? That's my question. What role, what role do you see for Lubavitcher? What's, what's the identity of a Lubavitcher who's not a day-to-day shliach?

1:05:32 Speaker 1 First of all, there's no such thing. The Rebbe "...", so you go out in the world. You gotta go out and unto people. Every yontif we know we gotta go out. Hey Teves, everybody had to go to the stores to buy sfarim. Um, the Rebbe "...", a Lubavitcher, "...". Maybe you just hit the nail on the, on its head, that those that are not so connected or they think it's a new generation and they, you know, they're, they're not connected to, to, to, to shtickel source here, they think, "Okay, so I'm a Lubavitcher." But, but a, a, a, a majority of Lubavitchers know that they need to do more than an average person. And I would think by the end of the day, and if I can say so even about you, if you don't mind me, you know, you're in Hollywood. I hope you came for a good, uh, gig, a Hollywood gig, you know?

1:06:28 Speaker 2 It's actually, it's actually in the valley.

1:06:30 Speaker 1 In the valley.

1:06:30 Speaker 2 A good story.

1:06:31 Speaker 1 Okay, good. You know, I'm telling you that, uh, you know, the fact that the "...", what's the word? The, the, um, no.

1:06:41 Speaker 2 Company.

1:06:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, the, you know, the, the company theme. This is the ge- the, the firma. We're holding on to the theme of the firma. It's not coming to me right now, but the bottom line is deep inside every single Lubavitcher, okay? And I don't care if he has long hair and he decides to take a little journey for a while, which a lot of people are doing. By the end of the day, even, you know, even with all that, he knows that his DNA is that he is a Lubavitcher. Not gezhe, not modern, not new. He is a Lubavitcher.

1:07:22 Speaker 2 Well, there's no, there's no shailah about it. I mean, you know, th-there's, there's a, it, it, there's a very common-- It's very common that there are people who will, will change their level of practice sometimes to the point of not practicing much Yiddishkeit at all, and yet they w-would only like or they would much prefer to marry another Lubavitcher in a similar situation. And one can scoff at that and like, okay, you know, get, get real, move on. But there's clearly something that, that holds, that holds even... Th-there, there is a part, like you're saying, the DNA that, that's still there, even if on the surface it looks very different. And I think, I think in many ways that's, that's something very much worth exploring. And for everybody, both the people who's, who are more, um, you know, let's say traditional in how they practice and others who aren't- I think it's worth wondering, what is it, what is it that, that everybody's holding onto so strongly? And if, if so many people are holding onto it, um, you know, maybe there's something there that we have to pay more attention to.

1:08:35 Speaker 1 No question. You know, it just went viral. My father was full of simcha, so he had a song. I don't know if you heard it or not, but it's-

1:08:46 Speaker 2 He co- he composed the song.

1:08:47 Speaker 1 He composed... Well, the tune is the-- is an old Russian melody, a victory melody I think it is. But the words, you know,

1:08:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:01 Speaker 1 You know, it-

1:09:02 Speaker 2 That was your father.

1:09:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, of course. That's my father's song, and it made it e-everywhere. And really that's, that's... You know, it's a theme. It's our, you know, general color war. It's the color of our flag. There's nothing to talk about.

1:09:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:18 Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's, it's... We're moving ahead. The Rebbe-- You know, if you're, if you're complacent, it just doesn't work. That's the bottom line. And we have another few minutes. I, I appreciate your time. I'm saying if you wanna ask me another question or two or-

1:09:36 Speaker 2 No

1:09:36 Speaker 1 ... whatever it may be. I, I truly enjoyed this. I didn't think it would be so, uh, you know, pro-pro-progative. Progative is the word? What's the word? You know, by the way-

1:09:46 Speaker 2 What are you trying to say? I don't know, I don't know what the word is.

1:09:49 Speaker 1 It was a beautiful, it was a beautiful, uh-

1:09:51 Speaker 2 Provocative?

1:09:52 Speaker 1 Provocative, a little bit.

1:09:54 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:09:54 Speaker 1 Okay. But, uh, you know, I went to Alef to Tau until I was eight years old. I didn't speak English. I spoke-

1:10:00 Speaker 2 Until you, until you were eight years old.

1:10:01 Speaker 1 Eight years old. I spoke only Yiddish. And, Baruch Hashem, we're, we're, we're influencing the world. We're only because of, of what we stand for and, and, and who we are. And, and I say this so many times to all my non-Lubavitcher friends, and even when I talk to children and things like that, you know, if I wasn't a Lubavitcher-- But don't ask me a bunch of questions, but if I wasn't a Lubavitcher, I'm not sure that I would be such a frum Yid today, you know? Uh, uh, I'm just telling you the, the, the tachlis. There's that, that, that, that we're put into the world, like the day before my fa- father passed away. We were brought into this world for seventy, eighty years to do, to do a Jew a favor and to make this place a ‹der betachtonim› and-

1:10:51 Speaker 2 What do you mean the day before your father passed away?

1:10:53 Speaker 1 Before the, the day my father passed away in the ‹hayyim yeim›.

1:10:56 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:10:57 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's ‹hayyim yeim›.

1:10:58 Speaker 2 Really?

1:10:58 Speaker 1 That's what it says.

1:10:59 Speaker 2 That's, that's my favorite pizgam.

1:11:01 Speaker 1 Really?

1:11:01 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

1:11:02 Speaker 1 So you came-

1:11:03 Speaker 2 It's, it's my favorite pizgam. It, it has so many layers of, of meaning for me. I was just talking, um... I was sitting last night with, uh, Mendel Zurkin, um, from Jets. And yeah, we were, we were sitting and talking till late at night, and that was one of the things we were talking about, that, that, that very pizgam. So you're saying that was, that was the pizgam the day before your father passed away?

1:11:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. And, and, yeah-

1:11:26 Speaker 2 Oh, you, you just brought up-- That point that you brought up of like, you know, if, if I wasn't a Lubavitcher, I don't know if I'd be frum.

1:11:31 Speaker 1 Yikes.

1:11:32 Speaker 2 No, no, no, no, no.

1:11:32 Speaker 1 But I, I used to say-

1:11:33 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to catch you

1:11:33 Speaker 1 ... I hope my mother doesn't... Well, she's listening from above.

1:11:36 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to ca-

1:11:36 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:11:36 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to catch you on that.

1:11:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:11:38 Speaker 2 I know the ‹farherrt›. I think, I, I-

1:11:39 Speaker 1 It's a saying. I'm saying I'm proud. I mean-

1:11:40 Speaker 2 Right, right. That's what... Right, right. So I think a lot of people will be like, "Okay, whatever. You know? It's, it's a pure hypothetical. What does it even mean?" But I think, you know, I think, I think there's more to it than, than might, than may meet the eye when you think about it. Like, somebody pointed it out to me the other day. Like, how do you explain that there are so many people from outside Lubavitch who are curious about what's going on in Lubavitch, where you don't see that so much the other way around? Right? Now, you could say it's Lubavitch arrogance, that they don't care. They're not curious about what, what else is going, what, what else is going on. You could say that's what it is. But you could also, you could also... I think, I think you have to be fair the other way as well and say that there's, there is some, there is, there is something here that's very, very compelling. There's something here that's very, very compelling. There's something here that's very, very powerful, to the point that many people outside of Lubavitch are, like you said, your friend from yesterday, are paying attention to it. They're not sure what it is. Maybe we're not sure what it is. But there's something here that's very, very compelling and very, very powerful. You could say it's the Rebbe. You could say it's, it's the, it's the heritage of the Hasidim and the ‹mesirut nefesh› that they had for generations.

1:12:51 Speaker 2 Um, but it's for sure something there. And, you know, I think, I think just to sum up this conversation, I think anybody listening, certainly m-me who's been listening to what you've been talking about, um, to me, that's a, a, a, a fresh way of understanding what gezehra means, why it's important. Not important to be gezehra, but important to appreciate the heritage and the history and the importance of, of the past and the continuity, that there's what to build on and, uh, there's something to be very, very proud of. And it certainly comes through in the way that you talk, and not just about your family, but about Lubavitch in general. And, um, yeah, it's, it's been a real pleasure.

1:13:32 Speaker 1 Is your podcast called Gezehra? What's, what's it...

1:13:34 Speaker 2 No. My, my pod- Oh, it's good that you're asking me now.

1:13:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:13:37 Speaker 2 But the podcast is actually called Homesick for Lubavitch.

1:13:40 Speaker 1 Homesick for Lubavitch.

1:13:41 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch.

1:13:42 Speaker 1 For the city of Lubavitch or in general Lubavitch?

1:13:44 Speaker 2 Well, I can't... I, I... No, it's not for the c- I don't think anybody's homesick for the city of Lubavitch.

1:13:49 Speaker 1 Oh, people are homes-- I'm homesick for the Rebbe, not for Lubavitch.

1:13:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:53 Speaker 1 The Lubav, Lubavitch is strong. But we're, we're not gonna get back. We'll use that at a plan. So I just wanted to thank you that you came by.

1:14:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:14:01 Speaker 1 First I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna give a little time of, uh, you know, for this." And I told you I only have certain amount of time.

1:14:07 Speaker 2 I told you I'm more shpilkes than you think.

1:14:09 Speaker 1 And, and, and give a look at now because this is very passionate. It's a great discussion. I enjoyed it.

1:14:13 Speaker 2 I appreciate it.

1:14:14 Speaker 1 I hope whatever said was r- was, uh, it was from the heart.

1:14:18 Speaker 2 It's from the heart.

1:14:18 Speaker 1 Certainly from the heart.

1:14:19 Speaker 2 That's all that matters.

1:14:19 Speaker 1 I may have gotten a few facts wrong, but I wanna close in, in, in one thing if I may.

1:14:24 Speaker 2 Sure, sure.

1:14:24 Speaker 1 You're supposed to close it, but I'm gonna close it.

1:14:26 Speaker 2 No, no, no. I'm, I'm, uh, uh-

1:14:27 Speaker 1 Okay? I, I told it to you when you contacted me. Just the other night I was going through some of my stuff-

1:14:33 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:33 Speaker 1 ... and I found a picture, uh, of the ‹shluchim› camp that I started-

1:14:38 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:38 Speaker 1 ... um, you know, probably more than twenty-six years ago when the Rebbe passed away and things like that. And, uh, we have a little picture of me and you going back then.

1:14:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:14:48 Speaker 1 So it's, it's appropriate that -

1:14:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. I'll put it, I'll put it on the video when I-

1:14:51 Speaker 1 Okay

1:14:51 Speaker 2 ... I upload it.

1:14:52 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:14:53 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I, I, I do remember. I, I do remember this was a camp in, uh, in Arizona.

1:14:57 Speaker 1 It was a camp in Arizona, and frankly, it was, um, ‹Gimel Tammuz› when the Rebbe passed away, and I was sitting right after the ‹Yom Im Yivuin›. I think it was even myself he made ‹chavar›, and a family member called and said, you know, "The Rebbe passed away." Um, you know, the chassidim are gonna be okay, but what's with the children? What's with the next generation? Right. What's with... You know, they said, "The only way we can do it is to make a camp and spend time together." That was the mission statement then, and here we are so many years later. You were one of the original campers, and- I think I came the next year. Oh, okay. I think I came the second year. Good deal. I think, yeah, I don't think I made it Nun Chei. I think I was there Nun, in Nun Bet. Anyway, we're, we're- Uh, there's certainly, there's certainly, uh, very good memories from Arizona. Um, I remember, I-- for me, it was like a whole trip. I had to come around the world, and- I think that's why I took a picture from you, 'cause you came from Hong Kong. Yeah, it was a little bit of celebrity going on. Yeah, celebrity. Well, actually, we had some from Australia, but yeah, there was- Celebr- I, I wasn't the only celebrity. Right, right. But I was a celebrity in term-- it wasn't because of me, it was because of how far away I was from. Yes. And I'd have

1:16:04 Speaker 1 to fly all the way to America, and then take a plane to Tucson, 'cause believe it or not, there are no direct flights from Hong Kong to Tucson or even to Phoenix. And- You were on the bar mitzvah. You were- Yeah, and then there was a three-hour drive to the camp. Yes. And I just remember- Oracle. I had- Oracle, Arizona ... Oracle, Ari- Oracle, Arizona. Um, it was, it was, um, yeah, it was a very, a very, uh, Beryl Goldman was the head counselor. That's correct. Rabbi Berkowitz was, was one of the staff members back then. Moishy Pinson was the- I don't, I don't remember Moishy. I think Moishy Pinson came in later. Uh-huh. Um, I mean, I don't-- I just remember Beryl Goldman, who, who every time I see him to this day, I, I always give him a, a, a big hug. He's a teddy bear. He's a teddy bear. No, but it was, it's, it's the memories that I have of him, um- Yes, yes. Yeah. And look, look what he built up in Gainesville. Yeah, it's a- It's just, it's just amazing. So, and so anyway, I, I definitely need to ex- express, uh, hakaras hatov for that, for the camp back then. I do remember you once showing up, uh, one of the winters there. You showed up with, uh, I think your friend Chazanov from LA. It could be. And you took our bunk to the store nearby, the convenience store. 7-Eleven or- And you're like, "Fill up your,

1:17:15 Speaker 1 fill up your, uh-" Slurpees ..."carts." No, no, no. No? "Fill up your carts. You have two minutes to fill up your carts on the house." We, we liked, we liked to do that. We didn't even touch about empowering today's kids. Right. It's, it's very, very important. But yeah, I guess you remember. Uh, I think, I think we did. I think we very much did touch it. We did, we did talk about it. Okay. We- Well, uh we're going so long, I gotta go, but I wanna tell you, just the other day... You know I run a kids' minyan a little bit, so I- Right. Sure, sure ... I like to be involved with kids. 'Cause I saw that in Crown Heights. There was Rabbi Yossi Goldstein who, who even though the Rebbe was there in '77, the kids needed a little minyan. We made a minyan, and I always remember saying, "When I grow up, I'm gonna do the same thing." Right. We have a minyan Keness HaRach going now on 22 years. Right. So you go to a lot of their weddings, I see. I go to their weddings, so this is what you're talking about. One young Mispalloh. We're a community, but there's one young w- one young person, just got married. So when he got engaged, I called him and said, "Mazel tov. Send me an invitation." And then 24 hours later, he called me. He's a kid that was a little bit challenging, shall I say, you know? And today, to

1:18:25 Speaker 1 run camp is not what it used to be. Right. Heint di kinder, you know, the, the attention span is very little. Right. Um, you know, the first 10 years of the kids' minyan was easier, now it gets harder. Anyway, he was a little bit of a challenge, so I remember, what am I gonna confront him when he comes into shul with a, with a bottle of soda on his head or different things when he was a kid. So, uh, I, I used to say every time he walked in, "Kindalach. Okay, it's time to sing. If there's a will, there's a way. If there's a will, there's a way," okay? Right. "If there's a will, there's a way," he says. RMD, that's what they call me. Do you know that that song, when I left yeshiva early and I went through my journey, okay? I used to sing to myself, "When there's a will, there's a way." How about that? So even though I agree with you, and I, I tell you we gotta look to the future, we also have to look a little bit about the past. Okay. That's such a wonderful way to end. At the end of the day, we're all in this together. You, you know, you mentioned the generational gap and, and, and those kind of problems, and they are, they are challenges. The generational gap has always been a challenge, always. But ultimately, um, all the generations are in it together because without the young, there's no future. Without

1:19:43 Speaker 1 the old, there's no past. We're all bound in this together, and, you know, that, that, that legacy and that history of community and, and, and, and sharing the past and then, you know, um, building on it in the future is, is what brought us to this point and what's gonna bring us further. And, uh, that's a wonderful way to end. Again, I appreciate your time. This has been a blast. And, uh, until next time. Thank you for giving me this ches. Wonderful. Okay. My pleasure. Have a great day. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Sornot and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.