Ep. 18 // “When Did We Stop Asking Questions?” w/ Rabbi Mendel Zirkind

00:00 Speaker 1 Don't question because if you question, there won't be an answer. And I think that has been instilled over the last 30, 40 years, 50 years maybe. And what I find quite, again, I don't know if the word is ironic, but like the Rebbe was the total opposite of that because the Rebbe was the one who addressed all of these questions.

00:22 Speaker 2 Right.

00:22 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was the most open of every Rebbe.

00:28 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. This week's guest is Rabbi Mendel Zirkind, who is a „magid shiur" in the Yeshivat in Los Angeles. I'm particularly excited about this week's guest, as it's the first time that the guest was sourced organically from the listeners of this podcast. I was heading to Los Angeles for a work project, and a number of people reached out to me and told me that if I'm going to be there, I must sit down with Mendel Zirkind for the podcast. And I'm very glad that I did. Mendel has spent over a decade working and teaching in the Wilkes Barre Yeshivat and the Yeshivat. And while these yeshivas are generally considered outlier yeshivas, Mendel's contention in the conversation was that many of the conversations and questions going on in these yeshivas would be of great benefit to everyone if they engaged in them. That there is a value to the kinds of questions and conversations that they are asking there that we all have something to learn from. It was a fascinating conversation. We started at 9:00 at night. We're supposed to be over at 10:30. Went far past that, as you can see. And, uh, I've-- I'm very, very glad to be able to share this with you. I hope you enjoy. All right. So I'm here in, uh, Los Angeles with Mendel Zirkind. Uh, for those watching, I'm

01:59 Speaker 2 wearing a sweatshirt because believe it or not, it's rainy and cold outside. Um, thank goodness I didn't come here for the weather. Wouldn't be the right time. But, um, I'm here with Mendel, and we have a lot to talk about. Already started speaking about it off, off, uh, off camera, off the record. But I, I wanted to start, I think if we're talking about Lubavitch identity, I think a-an interesting place to start would be to tell a little bit-- to, to speak a little bit about your family history because, you know, many are familiar with, with the Zirkinds that are the, the Malachim, and they, they dress differently. I think it'd be an interesting place to start of, you know, how, how did... What, what is the history of that, and how did you see yourselves in terms of being part of the general Lubavitch story?

02:51 Speaker 1 Well, first of all, thank you for, uh, inviting me onto this podcast. Um, and, uh, I, uh, hope that, uh, whatever I have to share is meaningful. Um-

03:04 Speaker 2 I don't have a doubt.

03:06 Speaker 1 So I'll s- I'll preface my, my words by saying that the way I'll describe, number one, my understanding of my family history-

03:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

03:19 Speaker 1 ... as well as my personal experience in that family is obvious-obviously somewhat subjective. Um, and as far as the actual history, I could be wrong a bit. I'm recounting the way I remember hearing it from my grandfather with a little bit of my own filling in the gaps, so to speak.

03:42 Speaker 2 A-and your grandfather is a famous sofer?

03:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. So my grandfather, I think, is more fam-famously known for his, uh, being a sofer. He was, uh, a shochet.

03:52 Speaker 2 Right.

03:53 Speaker 1 You know, so he started out actually being a shochet. Um, and then he moved to soferus, and he was involved in writing many sifrei Torah in the Seven Seventy-

04:04 Speaker 2 Right

04:04 Speaker 1 ... and worldwide. Um, his o-- he was an American boy. He was born in America. His grandfather came to America with his father. His father was a, a little boy, as far as I remember, 1906. Um, and they grew up in, uh, in Manhattan, as far as I remember. Again, I'm, I may be... I have to apologize if, you know, any family members will be hearing this and saying, "Oh, you made this mistake, that mistake." Um, my grand- great-grandfather was a religious Jew. He did not have a beard. And he... I don't know if he necessarily identified at any particular, you know, group, whether Chabad or not.

04:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:57 Speaker 1 My grandfather used to say that-

04:59 Speaker 2 So this is your grandfather's father?

05:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:03 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:03 Speaker 1 His name was Mordechai Shakna. Um-

05:05 Speaker 2 Mordechai Shakna Zirkind?

05:06 Speaker 1 Mordechai Shakna Zirkind, yeah. My grandfather would say that there was always sort of a Chabad, uh, I guess tint in the family. I guess the fact that where they lived in, in, in, in, in Russia was a Chabad gegend, you know, Chabad community. So to some extent they were influenced by that. But in terms of custom, in terms of levush, in terms of any of that-

05:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

05:37 Speaker 1 ... at least when they came to America, that wasn't, uh, existent. Um, my grandfather says that his father dedicated his life for his children's education. Um, my grandfather therefore went to school quite, you know, as a normal boy would went. He originally went to RJJ. Um, and- At that time, I think he was seeking, this is a bit of my own interpretation, he was seeking his own religious identity. Growing up in America at the time, this is prior to the Friediker Rebbe coming, so there wasn't a, you know, an open pride to being Jewish, as we know here, you know, America's Mishpacha idea, and all that, that came about when the Friediker Rebbe came. So either you were very religious in your house-

06:28 Speaker 2 Right

06:28 Speaker 1 ... um, or not, sort of type of thing. There were the group of Malachim, which were, you know, Chassidim of the Rebbe Rashab, um, or Marash who came to America, and basically decided to, however you wanna look at their history, uh, continue a certain tradition of Chassidus, Chabad Chassidus up till the Rebbe Rashab.

06:52 Speaker 2 What is the story of the Malachim? Do you know?

06:54 Speaker 1 I'm not entirely familiar with all the background to it. Um, I, uh, I understand that there was a particular leader that didn't get along with the Rebbe Rashab, the leader of the Malachim. Um, and, uh, as his way of, I guess, rebelling, I guess, decided to move to, uh, the United States-

07:13 Speaker 2 Mm

07:14 Speaker 1 ... and start, like, his own rebbe or something like that. Um, there's much more to the story. I- I'm a bit ignorant as to the full background to the story.

07:24 Speaker 2 Mm.

07:25 Speaker 1 My grandfather-

07:27 Speaker 2 Well, the Rebbe Rashab, uh, uh, there was, there was a gap there, like, for ten years after-

07:32 Speaker 1 Ten years, yeah

07:32 Speaker 2 ... Marash passed away.

07:33 Speaker 1 Right.

07:33 Speaker 2 So there wa- there was a lot of turmoil.

07:35 Speaker 1 There was, yeah.

07:36 Speaker 2 So-

07:36 Speaker 1 I mean, many Chassidim left.

07:38 Speaker 2 Right.

07:38 Speaker 1 Many Chassidim left.

07:39 Speaker 2 And many had left the generation before also.

07:41 Speaker 1 Right. Ch-Chas- uh, I mean, Lubavitch shrunk majorly after the Rebbe Maharash.

07:48 Speaker 2 After Tzemach Tzedek first.

07:49 Speaker 1 I mean, yes, Tzemach Tzedek from his own children-

07:52 Speaker 2 Right

07:53 Speaker 1 ... sort of dividing up the-

07:54 Speaker 2 Kapust and-

07:55 Speaker 1 Kapust, right. And, um, yeah, so, uh, uh, again, the exact story of it, um, I probably once read up about, but...

08:05 Speaker 2 It's so hidden. It's so hidden, all these stories. Like-

08:10 Speaker 1 Yeah

08:10 Speaker 2 ... we, we, I don't know.

08:11 Speaker 1 I think there's a part of it which is we're afraid to go down that path of exploring the splinter, the splintered parts of Chabad-Chassidus, so to speak, you know?

08:23 Speaker 2 Right.

08:24 Speaker 1 Um-

08:24 Speaker 2 Even though that happened pretty much in every other Chassidus, it wasn't, like, so uncommon.

08:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:29 Speaker 2 Every other Chassidus is, is, is a splintering of an original that can be traced back to one of the talmidim of the Maggid, right?

08:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like Rusian, Rubshitz, you know, you go all the way down.

08:38 Speaker 2 Right.

08:38 Speaker 1 You know, you have... Right. Have many different, um, yeah. Uh, it is an interesting, uh, historical exploration for itself.

08:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

08:49 Speaker 1 Um, just going back to my grandfather, he, he always... He said that he never identified as part of the group of the Malachim, but he davened in their shul. He would, uh, I guess, uh, he felt comfortable there.

09:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:06 Speaker 1 And my, again, this is my interpretation, my interpretation from my conversations with him was that he was looking, he was seeking for an identity, and it wasn't enough for him to have sort of this internal identity that he knew he was Jewish, and he knew he was frum. He needed an external one.

09:24 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:24 Speaker 1 So that's where he, you know, gravitated towards their vush, the way they dressed, um, and I guess took upon maybe some of their traditions even. I d- I'm not sure of that. This is when he was young, and that's where I think he identified himself as, as he got older. Um, moving f-forward, so he, I think about thirteen years old, he got tested, I think, uh, to, to go into Temchei Tmimim seven seventy.

09:56 Speaker 2 So by the time he was thirteen, the Friediker Rebbe had already come?

10:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. So at this point, the Friediker Rebbe is already, uh, here in the United States.

10:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

10:05 Speaker 1 And Temchei Tmimim is, is, is already, uh, um, is already, uh, you know, I guess a yeshiva that's opened for other, you know, the original-

10:16 Speaker 2 Right

10:16 Speaker 1 ... ten and out.

10:17 Speaker 2 Right.

10:18 Speaker 1 Um, the year that we're talking about now, I would like to think it's, uh, somewhere obviously in the forties. I can't pinpoint exactly what year it is.

10:30 Speaker 2 Right.

10:31 Speaker 1 Um, he... So he was tested to come into yeshiva, and the way he described it was that he, uh, the tester was very impressed with his knowledge and all that, and he's like, "Okay, you'll go to Beis Midrash tomorrow," or something like that. And he, uh, then asked him, "Nu, vi alpstu?" You know. He said, "I'm thirteen." He said, "Nah, it's, it's too early." So he said he stayed sort of like in Mesivta for five years, which, um, didn't really work out for him. Uh, during that period of time, he refused to go to Limudei Cho, to secular classes. Um, that was sort of a mandatory... The government, that w- You couldn't have a school in the United States without teaching English. Uh, the Friediker Rebbe sort of, I think, was able to, uh, compromise that they could be Limudei Kodesh. I think originally the English was first, and then the Limudei K-Kodesh in the afternoon.

11:31 Speaker 2 Right.

11:31 Speaker 1 Things like that.

11:33 Speaker 2 I think Alter was the first school that, like, officially did not teach Limudei Cho, like, on any level.

11:40 Speaker 1 Right. But that, uh, even there, at least in terms of the g- on the books, I think they officially-

11:46 Speaker 2 Right

11:46 Speaker 1 ... had to, you know.

11:47 Speaker 2 Right. But-

11:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

11:49 Speaker 2 ... yeah.

11:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. Right. It's the first school that's purely Alter's Hakodesh type of thing.

11:54 Speaker 2 Right.

11:54 Speaker 1 Um, so my grandfather, for whatever reasons, didn't wanna go to English, and, uh, he described being called in to the Friediker Rebbe's office, 'cause the Friediker Rebbe was the principal- And he said it was the most terrifying experience he had

12:10 Speaker 2 Right, the Friediker Rebbe was acting as a principal of the, of this, of this high school

12:16 Speaker 1 Either that or I guess as you would say it, the, the buck stopped with him type of thing

12:22 Speaker 2 He was like the dean of the school

12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:25 Speaker 2 Wow

12:27 Speaker 1 I mean, that's what I... I mean, this is, he was involved because this was a yechidas that he had with the Friediker Rebbe, um-

12:35 Speaker 2 Right, because the Friediker Rebbe we know was, was a menal techetumim

12:38 Speaker 1 Right

12:39 Speaker 2 But even, but that's before he became Rebbe. That was in the times of the Rebbe Rashab

12:42 Speaker 1 Right

12:43 Speaker 2 But even after he became Rebbe, I don't know, would... It's interesting. Was he, was he also the menal techetumim after he became Rebbe in Russia and Poland, or only when he came to America, and it was such a small community?

12:56 Speaker 1 I mean, I understand that the Rebbeim, I mean, starting with the Rebbe Rashab, were always the head of the mosid. So-

13:03 Speaker 2 Right

13:03 Speaker 1 ... even when after the Rebbe Rashab, even after the Friediker Rebbe became the official menal, I mean, still the Rebbe Rashab Bechaov was considered-

13:11 Speaker 2 Mm

13:12 Speaker 1 ... you know, the head of the yeshiva. Um

13:16 Speaker 2 On a day-to-day level was-

13:17 Speaker 1 So I don't know to what extent, right?

13:19 Speaker 2 Right

13:19 Speaker 1 There's the stories of the bocher that came, and the Friediker Rebbe wanted to throw him out, and the Rebbe Rashab-

13:25 Speaker 2 Right

13:25 Speaker 1 You know, s- I think there's definitely... What level of interactions? Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's historians that could fill in those, those details.

13:35 Speaker 2 It's just such, such a striking story. You know, you think about a kid or a teenager having some kind of, you know, typical teenager thing in school, doesn't want to do something, and he gets called into... Like, the way you framed it, the principal is a-

13:53 Speaker 1 Right

13:53 Speaker 2 ... Friediker Rebbe, and it's like, wait a second, like. It, it so boggles the mind because, like, that's not how we see the concept of a Rebbe today. But yeah, just a snapshot in history.

14:09 Speaker 1 I think there was also the factors that being that the government was regulating the school, and there had to be, all the students had to go to English-

14:19 Speaker 2 Right

14:19 Speaker 1 ... to secular studies. If there's one student that didn't, it could have perhaps risked, it could have been a risk to the school's survival.

14:26 Speaker 2 Right

14:26 Speaker 1 So the Friediker Rebbe got involved, I guess maybe from that level, uh, that, that I think would maybe-

14:32 Speaker 2 Right

14:32 Speaker 1 ... you know, sort of provide more of why the Friediker Rebbe was involved. Um, but my grandfather described sort of going into the Friediker Rebbe for yechidas and how, you know, terrified he was. Um, he said the Friediker Rebbe would like, you know, he said he felt the Friediker Rebbe piercing straight through him, which you've heard this, I've heard this from others describing their experience. My grandfather, Rabbi Groner, alav hashalom, I think also the... You know, I remember him describing that interaction with the Friediker Rebbe like it was like an awesome presence-

15:08 Speaker 2 Really?

15:08 Speaker 1 ... of feeling terrified.

15:10 Speaker 2 Really?

15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:11 Speaker 2 Because the pictures of the Friediker Rebbe are so almost, like, like, varm.

15:16 Speaker 1 Gentle

15:16 Speaker 2 You know, there's writing, and the pictures of him writing are so varm, the big smile.

15:21 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, those were po- you know, Friediker Rebbe's posing for those pictures.

15:25 Speaker 2 Sure.

15:25 Speaker 1 And it's a different... But I guess yechidas represented, you know... I, I also think that if you look at the pictures of the Friediker Rebbe, some of them, even the one with, let's say, the pen and the gaze, the Friediker Rebbe's gaze-

15:39 Speaker 2 Yeah

15:40 Speaker 1 ... it's almost like you can't move yourself away from that gaze.

15:43 Speaker 2 Right.

15:44 Speaker 1 It's a very penetrating gaze.

15:46 Speaker 2 Right.

15:47 Speaker 1 With the Rebbe's eyes, you know, people went to the Rebbe, they saw, like, light, and they saw, you know-

15:52 Speaker 2 Right

15:52 Speaker 1 I don't know, with the Friediker Rebbe, they say the eyes are just like a penetrating gaze.

15:56 Speaker 2 He had seen, he had seen terrible times.

15:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Right.

16:01 Speaker 2 Hmm. The Friediker Rebbe is, like, almost so forgotten, I feel, like, in, uh, like, in yeshiva. Like, there's Rebbe Rashab's chassidus, and then there's the Rebbe, right? And the Friediker Rebbe is, like, kind of... Even the name Friediker Rebbe, like, previous. You know what I mean?

16:18 Speaker 1 Creates a distance

16:20 Speaker 2 No, it's almost like, uh, relative to now, it doesn't have his own kind of

16:29 Speaker 1 It's kind of interesting because the Rebbe would always sort of, like, put things on the Friediker Rebbe-

16:35 Speaker 2 Right

16:36 Speaker 1 ... as, you know, as continuing the Friediker Rebbe's, um, you know, uh, things he instituted and all that. What's interesting, you mentioned about the Mayim Aram of the Friediker Rebbe. I would, I would say from my own experience, because of the depth, the sheer depth of the Friediker Rebbe's Mayim Aram-

16:57 Speaker 2 Mm

16:57 Speaker 1 See, the Rebbe Rashab is obviously very deep, but he's organizing chassidus.

17:03 Speaker 2 Right

17:04 Speaker 1 He's taking all the chassidus that was till his time, and the Rebbe Rashab says this himself, and he thought it through. He had to pis- put together the pieces. It's like sort of going through Gemara, where you have so many contradictions.

17:18 Speaker 2 Mm.

17:18 Speaker 1 Right? So Toises tries to organize it, but then Toises is also contradictory in different places, different concepts, and, like-

17:25 Speaker 2 Right

17:25 Speaker 1 ... how do you fit this all together into, you know, a unified single philosophy, if you could call chassidus a philosophy? Um, that's what the Rebbe Rashab did. So you open up the Rebbe Rashab's Mayim Aram, you're going on a journey through the generations of chassidus.

17:44 Speaker 2 Right

17:45 Speaker 1 And it's always through the mitz- the Alter Rebbe's Mayim Aram, 'cause that's always, like, the tershib husav, and you see the progression and the discussion. So it's almost like it flows from, you know, if you're looking to learn, let's say, like, Masechta Zekelim.

18:01 Speaker 2 Right

18:01 Speaker 1 You know, I'm talking about Oydis and Zekelim.

18:03 Speaker 2 Right

18:03 Speaker 1 You know, you look in different places, but in like an Ayin Beis, you'll have-

18:06 Speaker 2 Right

18:06 Speaker 1 ... a section that talks about Oydis and Zekelim, Jatzin and Taynuq. It's organized, it's structured, and it has the sulcha developed. You get into the Friediker Rebbe's Mayim Aram, again, this is my personal take, you almost feel like he's the, he's, he's, he's now re-exploring the concepts But abstract, abstracting to a realm of, of such complexity-

18:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

18:29 Speaker 1 ... you could go through a series of Maamar on one point almost.

18:33 Speaker 2 Right.

18:34 Speaker 1 So for the, for the, for the average reader, so to speak, the average learner, it's un- it's, I think, a bit overwhelming.

18:44 Speaker 2 Yeah. A l- a lot of shparding a har, like, like-

18:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

18:47 Speaker 2 ... like, like, like, like, like trying to pinpoint exactly the Madrega of, of Kol Hamaskil, and it's, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this, it's not this. It is... It's this, but not really this, and like for, for 50 pages.

19:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

19:01 Speaker 2 But, but on the other hand, there's a lot of the Philip Gravis chassidus that's very accessible, the one, the chassidus that he spoke when he came to America.

19:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, so from the 1940s on, like the Sefer Maamar Yiddish-

19:11 Speaker 2 Right

19:11 Speaker 1 ... Tosh Alef through Tosh Hey, those Maamarim are foundational, I think, to rehabilitate-

19:17 Speaker 2 Right

19:17 Speaker 1 ... you know, the Jewish communities, and especially the American Jewish culture-

19:22 Speaker 2 Right

19:22 Speaker 1 ... which was very much like the concept of having basic, you know, foundational ideas of Yiddishkeit, you know?

19:30 Speaker 2 Right.

19:31 Speaker 1 So you, you see the contrast. Like, you learn a Tov Rebbe Sadeck Beis, Tov Rebbe Sadeck Gimel-

19:35 Speaker 2 Right, right

19:35 Speaker 1 ... and move into a Tosh Alef. It's two different almost... You know, like, is this the same person, you know?

19:39 Speaker 2 It's amazing.

19:40 Speaker 1 It's literally two different, two different, you know... And I, and you sort of see this, I think, also in the Rebbe's Maamar Sichos, especially like in the early years Sichos. Like, you know, we always opened up, look at the Sichos Chelek Hach and like, yeah, that's like simple stuff, you know?

19:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:53 Speaker 1 You know, until you-

19:54 Speaker 2 That's from a Siftah.

19:54 Speaker 1 That's from a Siftah, right. But like you actually learn this stuff. It's like, in a way, it's the deepest, the simplest, but yet the deepest, you know?

20:03 Speaker 2 Right.

20:03 Speaker 1 But it, I think it's that continuation of what the Rebbe, what the Frieda Rebbe was doing. It's rebuilding.

20:09 Speaker 2 Right.

20:10 Speaker 1 And it's now setting the stage for where the Rebbe wants us, wanted to, you know, guide us and direct us. So it's almost like the Frieda Rebbe put, laid the groundwork a bit for the Rebbe to then put in, you know, the pillars, so to speak, in that stratum and-

20:26 Speaker 2 Yeah

20:26 Speaker 1 ... move up, move it forward.

20:28 Speaker 2 Fascinating.

20:29 Speaker 1 Um-

20:30 Speaker 2 Yeah, just to add to that point, there's a famous Sichos on Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur. I think it's in Chelek Daled. And like it's Chelek Daled or Chelek Beis. It's a famous Sichos on, on, on the Yom Toim of Tishri. And when you take a look of where they're from, they're all from the Maamarim of Tosh Chof Yodel.

20:49 Speaker 1 Right.

20:49 Speaker 2 Which are like the Tifsta Maamarim in Molok Heh.

20:52 Speaker 1 Right.

20:52 Speaker 2 It's like that's where the Sichos were from. But they were written in such a... 'Cause on one hand, that is the most yesivistic part of the Rebbe's Torah that everything is about the Yid. It's not like the mitzvah is secondary to the connection that the Yid has to the Rebbe. But there's a very tifas kalla to it. It's both the simplest and most foundational parts also, so it's interesting like you're saying.

21:16 Speaker 1 I mean, look the way the Baal Shem Tov describes, you know, the Chamisha Chumshei Torah, the Sifrei-

21:23 Speaker 2 Right

21:23 Speaker 1 ... Torah. It's, it starts off presenting it sort of, you know, the Lashon Bnei Adam.

21:30 Speaker 2 Right.

21:30 Speaker 1 And then you... The, the hope is, is that you'll strip away those, you know, the, the, the, the analogies and-

21:38 Speaker 2 Right

21:38 Speaker 1 ... and all that to get to the depth. Um, but I would say just one more com- point on the Frieda Rebbe's Maamarim is that for the real Maskil, you can't really learn like Chassidus without learning the Frieda Rebbe's Maamarim in that sense because he does, he does open it up.

21:58 Speaker 2 Right.

21:59 Speaker 1 You know? They print it with the Sefer, with, um, the Samafov, the new edition, the new print.

22:05 Speaker 2 Right.

22:06 Speaker 1 So they have organized in the back like the Frieda Rebbe's like notes. They only have a few on the beginning of, of the first Maamar. And it's hard to understand some of what he's writing.

22:19 Speaker 2 Right.

22:19 Speaker 1 It's so deep. But on the same, at the same time, if you do get it to whatever level I guess, it makes you realize how much you don't understand the Rebbe Rashab.

22:29 Speaker 2 That's so interesting.

22:30 Speaker 1 So in a way, although how it seems like you said, you know, he's splitting hairs, and he's, you know, trying to exactly find out what is Das, these different-

22:38 Speaker 2 Right

22:38 Speaker 1 ... targas and different types and all that, but at the same time, without that depth, there's almost like major gaps in the Chassidic way of thinking.

22:50 Speaker 2 Right. You don't even real- in a, in a way you don't realize what you're reading in Samach Chaf. You think, "Oh yeah, I, I figured it."

22:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:57 Speaker 2 'Cause if, 'cause Rebbe Rashab makes it so mesuder that you could convince yourself that you understand what it, you know. And then 'cause interesting, the same, there's a similar kind of pattern with Basse LeGani, where Basse LeGani, you know, the first five perkima of Basse LeGani especially very accessible, very, very, very similar to the Frieda Rebbe's Chassidus of like you said from the 1940s on. You know, uh, basic things of Dirba Tachtoinim and Escafia and, and, and, you know, Ischapcha and like Ishtusa Ek Tusha, Ishtusa Umasah, very s- very basic concepts. Actually, Kachta like in, in, in the last perek of that first Maamar, the Frieda Rebbe was talking like what's he, what's he being mezuzahs the Elul to do? Like, what's a Maamar's moser haska? Like a, a Baal Esik should, should do business bimuna and, and, and go to minyan three times a day and make kiur sitra m'chateira, like very basic stuff. Yeah, okay, I got it. I, I got the Maamar. I understand. And then the Rebbe takes every perek, and there's min ha'teach and, and, and before you know it, you're, you're looking at, at kiur sitra m'chateira from like 40,000 feet up in the air, right? It's like, uh, it's like, it's like a prat in like a much bigger thing. Uh, it's very interesting 'cause like, 'cause with the way you're kind of portraying it is that the Frieda Rebbe is like a very necessary step or step in the progression or stop, and if you jump from

24:31 Speaker 2 the Rebbe Rashab to the Rebbe, let's say, you're missing, you're missing a necessary bridge almost you're saying.

24:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. There, there's, there's parts of that, that I guess you could say that puzzle-

24:43 Speaker 2 Right

24:43 Speaker 1 ... that is not, that's not there. And you, you know, you, you, you learn the Rebbe's Maamarim, it does read easy also.

24:51 Speaker 2 Right.

24:52 Speaker 1 However much-

24:53 Speaker 2 Too easy

24:54 Speaker 1 ... it's too easy.

24:55 Speaker 2 Right.

24:55 Speaker 1 And, and, and it's only if you have the background to Chassidus that-

25:00 Speaker 2 Right. How often have you started a Maamar of the Rebbe and stopped in the middle? That's the way to, to... Right? That's Avodah Pecha.

25:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

25:08 Speaker 2 It, it happens all the time with Rebbe Rashab.

25:09 Speaker 1 Right.

25:10 Speaker 2 It happens every time with the Frieda Rebbe. But with the Rebbe's Maamar, man, It's too simple sometimes. It seems too simple.

25:36 Speaker 3 Yeah. A- a- actually, a story.

25:38 Speaker 2 Mm.

25:38 Speaker 3 One of my, uh... I, I, I learned with some, uh, some of the, I guess you could say "" although he's not so young, of, of Los Angeles. Um, and, uh, so he was-- he told me a story that, I don't remember exactly what year it was, but probably in the Lameds, I think. He was, he was learning at Morristown, and they used to go in for farbrengens-

26:05 Speaker 2 Mm

26:05 Speaker 3 ... the yeshiva. So one week they went in, and, and they came back, and

28:01 Speaker 2 Really?

28:02 Speaker 3 Because a Sameach Vov is this-- to some extent, it's developing the, the philosophy.

28:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

28:13 Speaker 3 So, you know, if you would, let's say, go back in history, and you would sort of like read, you know, the beginning of Jewish philosophers, Rabbi Saadia Gaon, Maimonides, and Rabbi Shlomo Ibn Gabirol, and Makor Chayim, and, you know, you move yourself down obviously to, to, to the Rambam and, you know, and, and, and, uh, Hasdai ibn Crescas and, you know, the Ikrim. You move yourself down in Jewish philosophy, it's almost like a continuation of a certain train of thought-

28:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

28:40 Speaker 3 ... with nuanced differences.

28:43 Speaker 2 Right.

28:43 Speaker 3 Each one sort of, you know, if you wanna say they were influenced by Plato or Aristotle and different, you know, thinkers at the time and, you know, putting on the Jewish version of it. But it's, it's almost like a development of how to look at God and his connection to God and the world.

29:02 Speaker 2 Right.

29:03 Speaker 3 Simplified, obviously. When you come to the Rebbe's Torah, it's not... At least for me, it's not a progression, so to speak, or development of a philosophy. The Rebbe is... Again, this is my personal, uh, feeling. The Rebbe is challenging you to see the philosophy as your own cosmic structure. That means when you're learning a Rebbe, I, I have this little word, if I could say. What's the difference between Chabad Hasidus generally and Hasidus Hagad? So, you know, the Rebbe talks about it in the Sichan, if I bring it up, she'll base. But I have this little word that Chabad, Hasidus, Hasidus Hagad is like a nice word, right? You, you read something in, you know, in, uh, from one of the, you know, the Peleg Rebbes or whatever, the Mishmeres Sholom or whatever it is, and it's, it's geshmak.

30:12 Speaker 2 Right.

30:12 Speaker 3 The Pasuk says something, and he breaks it down, gives a nice Kabbalistic, mystical interpretation. It's like it's geshmak, you know? Like-

30:18 Speaker 2 Right

30:18 Speaker 3 ... I feel good, like I ate salt.

30:21 Speaker 2 Right.

30:23 Speaker 3 You know, Chabad, Chabad Hasidus, it asks you like, "Ayeka"

30:28 Speaker 2 Right.

30:28 Speaker 3 You know, like, "Where are you?"

30:30 Speaker 2 Right.

30:30 Speaker 3 "Who are you?" But that's not as true till you come to the Rebbe's Maamar.

30:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:36 Speaker 3 You could learn Hasidus Chabad till the Rebbe's Maamar, I think, and see it purely as an academic-

30:42 Speaker 2 I see what you're saying

30:43 Speaker 3 ... structure.

30:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

30:44 Speaker 3 I mean, you learn 12 Satila, 12 Avoda, the Rebbe Rashab bemoans that-

30:49 Speaker 2 Right

30:49 Speaker 3 ... and criticizes the Hasidim for sort of seeing Hasidus in that light.

30:53 Speaker 2 Right.

30:54 Speaker 3 But you could do that.

30:55 Speaker 2 Right.

30:56 Speaker 3 But you move into the, the realm of the... You move into the Maamar of the, of the Rebbe. He's challenging you intellectually. He's challenging your, I guess you could say, your, your perspective on reality.

31:13 Speaker 2 Right.

31:14 Speaker 3 Like you learn a Besig, Besig Lagani mayim, for example, as you brought up before.

31:18 Speaker 2 They're my favorite.

31:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, to me, there's the two sets of mayim that really sort of like puts together the entire siddur. Besig Lagani is the blueprint of what we're supposed to be doing-

31:28 Speaker 2 Yeah

31:28 Speaker 3 ... and why we could be doing it, and then the Padu Mishol mayim are telling us what to do.

31:33 Speaker 2 Interesting.

31:34 Speaker 3 That's sort of the way I see the-

31:35 Speaker 2 Interesting

31:35 Speaker 3 ... breakdown.

31:36 Speaker 2 Interesting. I never paid so much attention to Padu Mishol in the way to Besig Lagani, but I should maybe, maybe now I will. Besig Lagani just to me is like amazing.

31:46 Speaker 3 If one, if, if-

31:47 Speaker 2 Amazing

31:47 Speaker 3 ... someone would do a work on just going through that-

31:51 Speaker 2 It's, there's a PhD there.

31:52 Speaker 3 Yeah, definitely.

31:52 Speaker 2 For whoever's listening that's looking for a PhD that's, that a lot of people would, would benefit from.

31:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:00 Speaker 2 It's the Besig Lagani. Also, the way, the way the rebbe weaves in all the rebbeim openly, not just like ieniaus, but like each rebbe and like... And also the, the, the way that he opens up the ieniaus mayimers, so it's, it's you see the, you see the action of the development. And it's a very different also sprache in my opinion than from other mayim. Like there's a different flavor to it. You could, you could show me a, a Besig Lagani without the ieniaus-

32:28 Speaker 3 And you know it's that mayim.

32:29 Speaker 2 I'll know.

32:29 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:29 Speaker 2 I mean, I think I'll know. The, the, the, the, the, the flavor is very different.

32:33 Speaker 3 It's like a Hasid learning a mayim. Like the rebbe is as the Hasid of the Frieda Karev in a way, sitting, analyzing, a-

32:41 Speaker 2 But the ideas are more colorful also 'cause the Bashem Tov comes in, and the Maggid of Mezritch comes in, and there's different i- there's different ieniaus, and it's like it's not-

32:48 Speaker 3 It's different dimensional and provides a different, uh-

32:52 Speaker 2 Yeah

32:52 Speaker 3 ... right. Interesting.

32:53 Speaker 2 There are different, there's a different flavor to it.

32:57 Speaker 3 Hmm. But like in those mayim, I, I like for me personally again, I feel like I'm challenged.

33:03 Speaker 2 Yes.

33:04 Speaker 3 And the challenge is you look at the world like this. I mean, that's essentially the Besig Lagani's theme, right? We see the world-

33:13 Speaker 2 Right

33:13 Speaker 3 ... as sheker and the world... Or we see the world for what it is, and we're supposed to recognize it's sheker and turn-

33:18 Speaker 2 Right

33:18 Speaker 3 ... it into kesher, that idea. But that the, the, the rebbe sort of ac- int- intellectually does that, where you're, you're faced with a dilemma of what did you really think?

33:32 Speaker 2 Right.

33:33 Speaker 3 I mean, I could go through specific anal- uh, mashalim or that, but I, I, for me, again, that's the bigger chidush in the rebbe's mayim. And I guess if I could share another idea of mine about this-

33:48 Speaker 2 Sure, as much as you want. There's a-

33:49 Speaker 3 The, the rebbe's to- you know, in Chassidus there's, in Chassidun there's the famous pisukim of a Hasid is a pnimi.

33:56 Speaker 2 Right.

33:57 Speaker 3 You know, which sort of changed with the rebbe. And, and how it changed is a Hasid, in my words, a Hasid is an atzmi.

34:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:06 Speaker 3 And that change is seen on almost all levels.

34:09 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that?

34:11 Speaker 3 I think prior to Tav Shin Yud Aleph, a Hasid, the definition of Hasid in many ways was someone who worked on themselves internally. Avoda zatfilo, obviously someone who refined their character, someone that was careful in halocho. You know, a Hasid is, is, is a ieniaus type of idea. It was, it was a very introverted, introspective life. Um, breaking of the ego.

34:43 Speaker 2 Right.

34:43 Speaker 3 Right? A scafia was a big deal.

34:45 Speaker 2 Right.

34:46 Speaker 3 Um, and, and the standard was like you should expect more from yourself.

34:52 Speaker 2 Right.

34:53 Speaker 3 You know, and breaking more of yourself. And that's pnimius.

34:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:59 Speaker 3 And the rebbe came out, and the rebbe said in the very first mayim, right, that we're ieniaus, which in other words means that we're, we're, we're standing on all of that work. That work is done, and what we're moving into is the realm of a- atzmus, which I know that's the word that you can't talk about, but, you know, and there's no word in English that really could define it. It's, you know, by the, by, by its very nature can't be defined. But what I mean by that is that we're not, we're not living to work on ourselves in the sense of refining, refining ourselves. We're looking to become a full, um, holistic, the, the, the holistic approach of where everything I do is in sync-

35:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

36:00 Speaker 3 ... with my identity.

36:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:02 Speaker 3 So what that means is when I, when I'm eating, when I'm davening, Chassidus talks about ieniaus, all of that concept, ieniaus, by the rebbe it's not just this is an avoda.

36:15 Speaker 2 I see.

36:15 Speaker 3 I'm not doing this as an avodas Hashem. It's an expression of myself.

36:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:22 Speaker 3 And in that sense, you go out on the street, you could go into, you know, Times Square and put on tefillin on people. It's not a contradiction.

36:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:30 Speaker 3 If you're looking from an avodas point of view, you don't belong there.

36:34 Speaker 2 Right.

36:34 Speaker 3 It's tainting your neshamah.

36:36 Speaker 2 Right.

36:37 Speaker 3 But the rebbe says the neshamah can't be tainted. Why?

36:41 Speaker 2 'Cause-

36:42 Speaker 3 'Cause this is-

36:43 Speaker 2 Connect to the ieniaus

36:44 Speaker 3 ... connect to action. Right. So ieniaus, right.

36:47 Speaker 2 Right.

36:49 Speaker 3 The famous ieniaus, like... And, and, and the rebbe therefore transformed in that regard. So you, we may argue to say that as a result, there's less avodas hatefilah by some.

37:02 Speaker 2 Right.

37:02 Speaker 3 There's definitely less introspection.

37:06 Speaker 2 Right.

37:06 Speaker 3 You could say the rebbe was a visionary in the sense of recognizing that- We are living at a time and a space right now where we're not capable of that.

37:15 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

37:15 Speaker 3 We have either, either our intelligence or our emotional capacities, perhaps because of the Holocaust and other reasons, have depleted our abilities to get there, and the Rebbe addresses that in some of my Morim, like the Avodas Hamaririm is no more. We have to be only Basimcha and that type of thing 'cause we don't have that capacity.

37:33 Speaker 2 You're talking about there's a Maimre in the, in the mems, right?

37:36 Speaker 3 In the mems, yeah.

37:37 Speaker 2 Which Maimre is that? Maimre Simcha? No. No, no.

37:40 Speaker 3 No, there's a Maimre-

37:40 Speaker 2 I don't know what you're talking about.

37:41 Speaker 3 Yeah. Um, so like in the-

37:45 Speaker 2 Oh, th-that's cr-- Oh yeah, and I'm remembering learning that in yeshiva, and like you think about it, that is, that, that is astonishing, right?

37:52 Speaker 3 Yeah, it's a change. It's a-

37:53 Speaker 2 It's astonishing. And it's like it's also it's like the mems Maimram in general are considered almost like it, it was on the... The Maimram were on the way out already, right?

38:02 Speaker 3 Yeah, right.

38:02 Speaker 2 In the mems, like a lot of the Maimram, they don't feel like there's much to them, so they're-

38:07 Speaker 3 They're very short

38:07 Speaker 2 ...Maimre Kainsicha.

38:09 Speaker 3 Yeah.

38:10 Speaker 2 And here, uh, basically the Rebbe is announcing that a, a integral component of Avodas Hasidism is basically over.

38:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. I-i-in that sense, you know, I, I, I... I-- That's where, you know, the Rebbe's Chidush, and, and, and like I said, that's seen in the ps-- in the Maimram starting from day one. From Tosh M'od Aleph on, there's one theme throughout the Rebbe's Maimram, and that's atzmus. You don't find that-

38:39 Speaker 2 Right

38:40 Speaker 3 ...not at all. You find words... When you look in the early Rabbeim-

38:44 Speaker 2 Right

38:44 Speaker 3 ...the word atzmus, how many times does it appear? Atzmus by itself.

38:48 Speaker 2 Right.

38:49 Speaker 3 Right? But very beginning, in Baser Lekani, the Rebbe does one thing off the bat.

38:54 Speaker 2 Atzmus.

38:54 Speaker 3 He tells you that when we're talking about Shekhinah, he goes to the Rabbeim-

38:57 Speaker 2 Right

38:58 Speaker 3 ...and the levels of Shekhinah, and he says, "But it has to be higher and higher and higher."

39:01 Speaker 2 We're going bizness self.

39:02 Speaker 3 We're going, we're hitting-

39:03 Speaker 2 Bizness self

39:03 Speaker 3 ...we're hit, right. We're, we're, we're fully... We're, we're living in full expression mode.

39:07 Speaker 2 Right.

39:08 Speaker 3 Um-

39:09 Speaker 2 There, there's no, there's no letup. There's no letup. There's no "Let's take a rest here"-

39:15 Speaker 3 No

39:15 Speaker 2 ...and, and we'll get back to it later. The-- There's always, it's always take the idea to its furthest conclusion, which always, because you're talking about God, you're always gonna end up by, by God Himself, not, not around God, near to God, that's till it's... No, no, no. All the way.

39:34 Speaker 3 Not godliness.

39:34 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

39:35 Speaker 3 God Himself.

39:35 Speaker 2 It's like with Samach. No, no, you're gonna go all the way to the end, uh, which is, which is, is, is very interesting what you're saying. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I can understand what you're talking about. It reminds me also, there was a line I remember reading once in the Pidyon Hashechas that Amalek was a Yad Hasid, and then now it's a Ha- a Hasid a Yad.

39:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

39:57 Speaker 2 Right? There was a, there's a Yad... There used to be that there was a Yad who wasn't, like part of who he was or an important part of who he was, was a Hasid. But now, like almost in order to be a Yad, you have to be a Hasid. Like your whole Yiddishkeit is that you're a Hasid. So i-i-i-it's certainly a noticeable transition. I think, I think the very interesting question is, though, you know, like you were talking earlier, we were talking earlier about like the Maimram being almost... It tricks you to make you feel like it's too simple or it's so simple. Like what happens when you... You, you mentioned maybe it has to do with the Holocaust and coming back. I, I don't know. Like whatever the reason for it was, and I'm sure there are reasons that are much higher than any of us can understand, but the practical result is that, yes, on one hand, um, a person can go into Times Square and put on tefillin, like you said, but when you lose introspection, and you lose a Krias Shema Shelamit, and you lose the Skafia, and you lose the Sparnos, or, or you decrease in all of those things, there's also a cost, right? There's also a cost because it only works when you tuck it, take it to the end. But what, what, what I've, what I noticed for myself, and what I've noticed from looking around also is that it's very easy when you're talking about this

41:29 Speaker 2 kind of extreme form of Avoda to get... To inst-- to, to take the affect of it, the, the Cheitiness almost, the, the look of it without the actual Kichkes of it. Uh, what's the... There's an expression somewhere. Uh, it's an old Yiddish expression, the Chalba Ili, right? The guy's a Chalba Ili. The question is which, which Chal? The, the Chal that actually is a genius or just that he can't put his socks on in the morning, right? So like wh-which... There's a lot of Chalba Atmes today where like, you know, they, they, they, they're totally like en-engrossed in being a Hasid, let's say, but, but a lot of the basics of intr-- Like to put the question very simply, can you be a Hasid without introspection? Like can you be an Atme without introspection? Like I... And what happens if you don't have introspection? I think there are... You see what I'm saying?

42:24 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I-

42:25 Speaker 2 Uh, that's, that's, that's the question here. But at the same time, it doesn't change the fact that things did change. So, you know, one wonders, one... 'Cause I think the reason I'm bringing this up is 'cause you, you said that the Rebbe saw that people maybe weren't up to it or introspection would not work as much and so on. And, and so I mean, if we're going to start talking about like what the reason for the change is, I mean, sh- don't we also have to ask if, if there's a, a draw- a drawback, a downside? And, you know, it may be in a way it's better not to try to understand the Rebbe's motivation, meaning to say that, I don't know, a Hasid needs to have introspection, a Hasid needs to have all these things, and on top of all that- If you know what I'm saying, like, I don't know

43:17 Speaker 3 It's interesting. Uh, uh, uh, so a, a number of points on that. I mean, you're, you're bringing up a huge, a huge topic, and one that-

43:24 Speaker 2 We still have to get back to your Zaid, by the way.

43:25 Speaker 3 Yeah, right. Um, this is actually a discussion, an ongoing discussion that I've been having for years with others and with myself. Uh, so a number of points. Firstly, I, I, I do think that from sort of, if you wanna speak from the mystical point and from the Rebbe, as a, as a Rebbe, and also you had those points of view, um, we, we obviously, I feel you have to obviously see it in a bigger picture, which is the Rebbe's, as the Rebbe outlined in Tofshian Alef, this is preparation for the Avdachtaim in its fullest form, which is gonna be that expression of atsmus. And therefore, to get there, we gotta move into that realm. So quite literally, the Rebbe pushed us in that direction, and you see that in the Maimer Vata Detsava, which is the fa- last Maimer that we, that was mugah from the Rebbe, that we sort of, like the Bosie Lagani of Tov Shin Yud. This is-

44:21 Speaker 2 Right

44:21 Speaker 3 ... right? And in that Maimer, at least for me, what stands out is the Rebbe saying this very idea. "I've made you aware of Etzem. Now you could take and break the next step of making the final day of Tachtaynim." And I, uh, there's definitely, you see that in the progression of the years. But in terms of the actual point about sort of the drawback that happens, there's a number of things that obviously have to be looked at. Personally, I think that there's a lack of depth.

44:57 Speaker 2 Mm.

44:57 Speaker 3 I think there are deep people today, but overall, there's a big lack of depth. Um, we're living in an age of quick information, uh, right? Social media, TikTok, you know, moving fast. People don't ha-- people don't sit and, and think anymore. Very few people.

45:21 Speaker 2 So in the eighties, they were deep?

45:24 Speaker 3 In the eighties, they were moving away from depth. Um-

45:29 Speaker 2 Right. So, so it's not, it's not, it's not social media.

45:32 Speaker 3 No. What I mean by that is social media was providing for an existence that was already there.

45:37 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

45:38 Speaker 3 What I'm saying is, is that we've moved as, as people.

45:42 Speaker 2 Right.

45:42 Speaker 3 Right? As people, we have moved away. Today, I'm using TikTok and social media just as a very current-

45:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, fair

45:48 Speaker 3 ... example of it.

45:48 Speaker 2 Okay. Fair enough.

45:49 Speaker 3 But you could go back to advertisements, which started in the sixties.

45:53 Speaker 2 Right.

45:54 Speaker 3 Which is the same idea, right? Um, it's, it... The realm of the, of... Just as from a psychological, sociological point of view, people don't think anymore. People are not introspective.

46:07 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

46:07 Speaker 3 Uh, what people want is to have a quick high, get spiritual-

46:13 Speaker 2 Right

46:13 Speaker 3 ... and that's it.

46:14 Speaker 2 Right.

46:15 Speaker 3 So just sort of, you wanna say the, the, the, from a, from soc- from a societal point of view and from a, maybe you wanna say, collective conscious point of view, that's not the space we're in anymore. Um, and that obviously plays true in Judaism and, and, and even in that sense.

46:33 Speaker 2 Right. We all live in this world, ultimately.

46:35 Speaker 3 Yeah. So there's, there's, there's definitely that trend. There's definitely the sort of that path. Um, but there's o- there's another factor here, which is, um, to, to be introspective means you have the capacity to be objective.

46:54 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:54 Speaker 3 We don't have that capacity today. Um, we are not in tune with our emotions enough or properly to be objective. And what I mean by that is, is that , you know, p- there's almost like this, this irony that we're so open today.

47:13 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:13 Speaker 3 And we speak so much about, you know, our feelings.

47:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

47:17 Speaker 3 There's an openness for, you know, anybody to say and share what they want. And like, you would think that because of this openness, people are more in tune with their emotions. But I find-

47:27 Speaker 2 Right

47:27 Speaker 3 ... with my interactions with people, that almost the opposite is true.

47:31 Speaker 2 Right.

47:31 Speaker 3 And because we're not open with our emotions, we don't have that anchor that allows us to fully be objective in our exploration. I, I'll give an example.

47:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

47:42 Speaker 3 What I mean by that is, let's say asking the question about am I relationship with God, right? Is it that God just wants me to listen to His rules?

47:54 Speaker 2 Right.

47:54 Speaker 3 Follow Torah, mitzvahs as, you know, this is, this is the blueprint to life, and you do this 'cause this is life, or is it a relationship with God?

48:04 Speaker 2 Right.

48:05 Speaker 3 And then the question becomes, if it's a relationship with God, I understand a relationship as being two ways. I understand a relationship as being where there's a giver and a take. There is a give and take on both ends, mashvim hakabbalah on both ends, and I feel a certain security. I feel a certain serenity, a certain peacefulness.

48:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:29 Speaker 3 But then I'm acting religious, and I don't feel that way. So what that sort of provides, I guess, is this dilemma, this question.

48:41 Speaker 2 Right.

48:41 Speaker 3 Right? Of, so how do I, so now how do I figure this out? So perhaps Amalek Hasidim would say that's yetzar, right? The fact you're not feeling it is you have shabbos, it's gasus haklipos, it's too coarse. Learn Perekh Mem Beis of Tanya talks about ig之s habosor, ig之s hanefesh, and all that. You tell that to someone today, they're gonna tell you that's just a whole bunch of baloney. What are you talking about? You know? What I know is I feel comfortable at home in my gatkis.

49:16 Speaker 2 Right.

49:17 Speaker 3 I'm, I'm not interested in this, like, hard work type of mentality. You can't tell me a relationship is about hard work.

49:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:24 Speaker 3 So what to me, what to me the root of that problem is an emotional issue, which is because our emotions are so turned off, we're, we're looking for what I like calling synthetic pleasures.

49:42 Speaker 2 Right.

49:42 Speaker 3 We're looking to run away. I know I'm mentioning a lot of things at f- at once, but we're running... We're trying to find the quickest fix and the quickest ease and the place to go to that makes us feel the most, the safest and the most secure.

49:55 Speaker 2 Fast food emotions is what you're talking about.

49:57 Speaker 3 Yeah, basically, exactly. So, so, so what you're doing is, is that you're aware that your emotions are hurt.

50:03 Speaker 2 Right.

50:03 Speaker 3 There's something wrong.

50:04 Speaker 2 Right.

50:04 Speaker 3 But you're not really objective with them. You're not really asking the tough questions of yourself.

50:09 Speaker 2 You're not ready to go there, really.

50:11 Speaker 3 You're not ready to go there. And what w- what, what happens therefore is, is that when you're trying to then learn Hasidus from that introspective point of view, there's a massive block.

50:25 Speaker 2 Interesting.

50:26 Speaker 3 Y- y- it's, it's... There are people that have that openness.

50:30 Speaker 2 Right.

50:31 Speaker 3 But I would say a vast majority of people don't, and the concepts and ideas just, even if they resonate sort of like on an intellectual level-

50:42 Speaker 2 Mm

50:43 Speaker 3 ... when it comes to the emotional world, it's... There's, there's no, there's no like, uh, there's no proper channeling of that idea. So if we just be honest, I guess if you're saying fr- again, from a psychological, sociological point of view, introspection is just almost very, I would say, is left to the few that could and have that openness.

51:10 Speaker 2 Right.

51:11 Speaker 3 There's another side to this, which I think is, is almost like a counterargument or in another way looking at, is that it's not necessary anymore. Because what introspection does is, in some regards, it pulls you away from action.

51:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

51:30 Speaker 3 It pulls you away from doing. You know, if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're analyzing your relationship with your wife-

51:39 Speaker 2 Right

51:39 Speaker 3 ... you're not in the relationship.

51:40 Speaker 2 Right.

51:42 Speaker 3 So introspection in and of itself means you're calculating your, your behavior.

51:48 Speaker 2 Right.

51:48 Speaker 3 You're calculating your actions. You're... So how, how, how much are you in the action part? How much are you in the I do?

51:56 Speaker 2 Well, this is a of Tosafot, if I remember correctly, where the, where the rabbi explicitly says, and like you said, this is at the beginning of the Nesius, where any ... of Voodoo House, and I don't remember the exact lotion, but any that you start getting carried away in your mind is in direct, uh, detriment to the time you could spend in making it your

52:20 Speaker 3 Right. And, and, and, and the consequences of that are both positive and negative because you have all over the world-

52:30 Speaker 2 Right

52:30 Speaker 3 ... then some of them really being moisture nefesh-

52:34 Speaker 2 Right

52:34 Speaker 3 ... because the rabbi instilled that concept of atsmus-

52:37 Speaker 2 Right

52:38 Speaker 3 ... and not introspection.

52:39 Speaker 2 Right.

52:40 Speaker 3 And then you have a counter reality of people who feel dry-

52:46 Speaker 2 Empty

52:47 Speaker 3 ... and empty.

52:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

52:48 Speaker 3 Because they just see it as push, push, push.

52:51 Speaker 2 Right.

52:53 Speaker 3 So you're right.

52:54 Speaker 2 Right.

52:54 Speaker 3 There's definitely, there's definitely a drawback, and there's definitely what we're left with is, is, is, you know, I guess those that fully buy into it and the ones that don't. You know, I've asked myself the question, why does a Bochur Yeshiva? Where, where, where do you find a Bochur Yeshiva becoming disenchanted with the system?

53:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:16 Speaker 3 And there's obviously not one size fits all, right? Every Bochur, every person, every situation is different. But there's a certain aliena- alienation-

53:29 Speaker 2 Mm

53:29 Speaker 3 ... that a Bochur feels. And where does that, where does that start from?

53:33 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

53:33 Speaker 3 You know? And I think that for many, where it starts from is a certain... Well, I'll, I'll put it from two different... J- I think there's two general, there's two, two, two things here. There's the w- a certain shfira that happens.

53:52 Speaker 2 Right.

53:53 Speaker 3 Like this, this is, this is, this, this id- this idea just doesn't resonate with me.

53:58 Speaker 2 Right.

53:58 Speaker 3 You know? It's like certain people like finding out that there is like, you know, uh, you know, we believe that the Torah is, um, from Mount Sinai and God revealed it and, and all of that, and then you find out there's just the Hammurabi code that predates the Torah.

54:14 Speaker 2 Right.

54:15 Speaker 3 So one second. Is the Torah-

54:17 Speaker 2 Right

54:17 Speaker 3 ... min hashamayim or this is just a copy of the Hammurabi code type of thing?

54:21 Speaker 2 Or the, or the dinosaurs.

54:22 Speaker 3 Or the dinosaurs or any of these types of questions. So you, you're brought up in this very pure place, in this very, you know, uh, you know, uh, closed, I guess you could say, um, ghetto-ish-

54:38 Speaker 2 Right

54:38 Speaker 3 ... way, and then sort of like you, you're exposed, and what do you do with that exposure?

54:44 Speaker 2 Right.

54:44 Speaker 3 It just shocks the system, and then you start thinking that you were lied to.

54:47 Speaker 2 Right.

54:49 Speaker 3 Um, and then the introspection has lost. It's derailed to the point where you can't become objective. You know, like the Gemara says-

54:58 Speaker 2 Why? Because you're so angry?

55:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. Not because you're so angry. No, not because you're so angry. It's because-

55:05 Speaker 2 You don't trust

55:05 Speaker 3 ... you don't trust.

55:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

55:07 Speaker 3 You're afraid you're being lied to again.

55:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

55:09 Speaker 3 Once I lost the trust-

55:11 Speaker 2 Yep, trust is everything

55:12 Speaker 3 ... you know. It's like the Gemara says the story of, uh, Eliashib Ben Avuya, which is interesting. The Gemara tries to find how was it that such a great man gave up, you know, what we would call today fried out or went off the derech. Like-

55:29 Speaker 2 Right

55:29 Speaker 3 ... how did that happen?

55:30 Speaker 2 It's funny, they don't just attribute it to like HR.

55:32 Speaker 3 No. They find... Right. Exactly. But what they find actually in other different Gemaras, what they find is sort of either certain biological things based on his parents, his mother-

55:44 Speaker 2 Right

55:44 Speaker 3 ... or whatever. But then there's this story, the Gemara repeats itself twice, one in Hulin, one in Kidushin, the famous story of he saw a father telling a child, "Climb up the ladder, remove-"

55:54 Speaker 2 That's right. Yeah

55:54 Speaker 3 ... you know, do, and the child falls and dies. And he says the two psukim, the two-

56:00 Speaker 2 Two mitzvahs

56:00 Speaker 3 ... mitzvahs that the Torah commands that you know, that you live long And to me, that almost like is the story of so many.

56:09 Speaker 2 Right.

56:10 Speaker 3 Where like, "Yeah, I believe that also. That's the way I saw the Torah. It was exactly that way, and now you lied to me."

56:17 Speaker 2 Right.

56:17 Speaker 3 So you try to tell Achar, which he's called afterwards, "No, no, no, no, you have to understand, that was like-

56:24 Speaker 2 "He didn't really mean it that way."

56:25 Speaker 3 "He didn't mean it that way," right?

56:27 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

56:27 Speaker 3 Right, so like now I should believe you?

56:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

56:29 Speaker 3 Right? Now it makes sense.

56:30 Speaker 2 It was only a dark mashal. It was only-

56:31 Speaker 3 Right.

56:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

56:31 Speaker 3 So that's one side. So, so, so when you're dealing with introspection on that element, it's, you're, you're already... What I mean by, by trying to even explore that emotional hurt, y- you don't have any more an anchor to fall back on.

56:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

56:45 Speaker 3 'Cause the, the society and environment you grew up with is, to you, the problem.

56:51 Speaker 2 Right.

56:52 Speaker 3 And then I think there's another group of people, which is those that, you know, didn't get excited by 10 Kislev farbrengen, didn't get excited by the mitzvah yeshiva that was, you know, I don't know, preparing for your shvat.

57:06 Speaker 2 Right.

57:07 Speaker 3 And you ask yourself the question, "Am I crazy or are they crazy?"

57:11 Speaker 2 Right.

57:12 Speaker 3 The initial reaction is, "I'm crazy."

57:15 Speaker 2 Right.

57:15 Speaker 3 And when you think you're crazy, you, there's a lot of insecurity that comes up with that.

57:22 Speaker 2 Right.

57:22 Speaker 3 But you then have to find yourself.

57:25 Speaker 2 Right.

57:26 Speaker 3 And you find yourself as saying, "Well, this is not for me."

57:28 Speaker 2 Right.

57:30 Speaker 3 And you then turn around and saying, "No, they're crazy, and I'm the normal one."

57:34 Speaker 2 Right.

57:35 Speaker 3 And in that space, here again, there's a hurt, which is, again, that emotional space, which is-

57:41 Speaker 2 Mm

57:41 Speaker 3 ... you know, like, "Why didn't it work for me?" And I, I mean, I would, I would be honest, I would blame it on the system, and I, I know this is very, very in vogue, so to speak, to blame things on, on systems and schools, but what I mean by that is, is that there isn't one size fits all, and perhaps the way it was, it is, it is taught and the way it is presented is very, you know, one-dimensional.

58:09 Speaker 2 Right.

58:10 Speaker 3 But that's, that, that particular problem is another very common occurrence which makes, makes the bachur or the, or the girl, whoever it is, say, "I have to find a whole new identity, 'cause this identity definitely is not me, and I don't resonate with it."

58:28 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:28 Speaker 3 And that introspection is actually where the introspection goes very deep.

58:33 Speaker 2 That's where it begins.

58:34 Speaker 3 That's where it really begins.

58:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

58:36 Speaker 3 But they've sort of like said, "Chassidus doesn't talk to me anymore-"

58:39 Speaker 2 Yeah

58:39 Speaker 3 ... "because that's, that what I didn't identify with." So my journey is I'll read, you know, uh-

58:48 Speaker 2 Dostoevsky

58:49 Speaker 3 ... Dostoevsky, exactly.

58:50 Speaker 2 I have to show you a passage. Uh, I wish I knew it by heart. I just read it literally a couple days ago. Um, I'm forgetting who it was from. I know which book it was in, but forgetting who, who wrote it. Ortega.

59:03 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

59:04 Speaker 2 Um, and he writes about the glance of the shipwrecked. You know the f- uh, it, it, you know the passage?

59:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

59:10 Speaker 2 Where basically-

59:10 Speaker 3 Yeah, I, I don't know it by heart, but yeah

59:11 Speaker 2 ... you know what I'm talking about?

59:12 Speaker 3 Yeah.

59:12 Speaker 2 Where basically the ruthless glance of the person who realizes that they're adrift-

59:17 Speaker 3 Right

59:17 Speaker 2 ... and they need to find a new place to anchor themselves, and he says, "That one ruthless glance is when it all begins, because everything else is farce." Everything else is basically a joke. Um, you have to feel completely unmoored to actually begin finding an anchor, which, um, you know, that, that very much is what you're talking about here, is that it almost, you need that kind of dis- utter dislocation to actually have someone to talk to, which is why you, you find this, it seems like a paradox on the surface where, like, and you could probably talk to this from your experience, where you end up having these deeper, more ruthless, honest conversations about faith with the guy who doesn't wear yarmulke, doesn't keep Shabbos, 'cause it's all on the table at this point, right? Whereas, you know, the more kind of toeing the line bachur who's, uh, like you said, disenchanted, but hasn't yet, isn't ready to go all the way-

1:00:27 Speaker 3 In denial

1:00:28 Speaker 2 ... yeah, you kind of tiptoe around it, a lot of passive aggressiveness and, like, you know, like, "Uh, uh, uh," but it's not, you're not ready to really get to the question, it's like, is there an Apikorsus or not? 'Cause he's not ready to go there either. Um, no, so you, you bring up a very interesting point about, like, the challenges for introspection and why, in so many ways, introspection seems su- like such a past, like a, an old-fashioned art. Um, you know, you think about all the stories of Cheshbon HaNefesh of the Chassidim, they used to, you know, the, all the stories that were told, the Chassid that every night his pillow was sopping wet, and, and the Chassid spent two hours Cheshbon HaNefesh like, where did that all go? And it's like, it's not just about the lack of interest in working. It's more like, it's, you gotta be ruthlessly honest to do that. Those guys weren't playing a game. Those guys were dead serious. But I mean, you said, you said so many interesting points there, you know, how also, like, in a way, almost paradoxically, again, the only way a pers- maybe it's not such a paradox when you think about it. The only way a person can be honest in intros- in his introspection, which is the only way to be introspective, is when he feels trust, and the trust goes both ways, meaning we'll let you go be shipwrecked. We'll let you get a, be cast adrift. You know,

1:01:54 Speaker 2 the famous kind of example that's brought is the Amish are so confident in the way they instill their values that they let their people go away for a year.

1:02:02 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:02 Speaker 2 Right?

1:02:02 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:03 Speaker 2 I'm not suggesting we do Refuim or anything like that, like Dafke. At the end of the day, an Aveira is an Aveira. There is a straight and narrow path that we believe in. But there's still a trust where, like, we trust you to make your own choices and to figure things out on your own, and only when you're tru-- It's, it-- There is a paradox here, and at least an irony, where, like, the only way a person can honestly stay in this faith is by you trusting him to, to choose whether or not he wants to stay, right? And once a trust breaks down, for whatever reason, you, you may have guaranteed that he will stay for a short term. Maybe he'll stay for the long term, but you've probably also guaranteed that it won't last past him or her.

1:02:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:02:50 Speaker 2 Right? It's, like, very interesting. The famous thing is in Shulchan Aruch, I think, where in Birkat HaTorah we say, "V'neuchal tz'tzenu," and then there's other lashon is, "V'tz'tzei," oh, we also say, "V'tz'tzei, v'tz'tzeiinu." Why, why is it davka the grandchildren? Because that's when you know that you've done something right, right? You c- you... There is a way, maybe it's become harder today, but there is a way to kind of force your children to follow your path, to control them, to try to, to really kind of, not bully them, but, like, but, but push them hard to follow your path. You could do that, but then you probably won't get your grandkids, right? Because, because there's no trust. The trust... And trust is what lasts. Um, coercion and power doesn't last. So there's so many things that you said. I, I think... Now, now I'm split. Which, which path do I wanna go, uh, go down? I, I, I think let's just wrap up a little bit what we were talking about earlier, is, um, I think, I think it's just worth posing the question again of what's a chicken and what's the egg? Meaning, there's one way of looking at it, and this is an interesting question. One way of looking at it is that there was no way there would ever be proper introspection anymore. For whatever reason, for better or for worse, the world is going in a direction where just people are not capable of, of this kind of inner, inner direct-

1:04:23 Speaker 2 direction where, you know, it was all about... I think Peter Thiel has a famous kind of, um, definition where he says, like, uh, at some point in the 1960s, America landed on the moon, and then a month later, there was Woodstock, right? There was a fork or there was a pivot where we went from, like, actual hard science that ended up with a rocket on the moon with, with, with the computing power that's in a half of a, or in a frac- fraction of an i- of a, of a, of an iPhone. And a month later, America decided, "Screw that. We're done. We're... Now we're just gonna wa- wallow in navel-gazing," and like you said, cheap, fast food emotions. And could be that's just where the world went, and so maybe that's the, maybe that's the chicken and the egg is, so then the only kind of chidduch that we have left is one that's very just kind of brutally directive-based and just this, "Do this, do this." Just kind of, "Don't think, don't think, just do." But it could also be that one of the reasons we're not introspective is because we've decided not to be introspective, and maybe that's a problem. You know, I'm, I'm not sure that I, that I accept that this is a way it has to be, is what I'm saying. Like, I, I think, I think depth and trust are, are skills that can be taught and skills that can be learned. Um, and, you know, I think,

1:05:50 Speaker 2 like, I think to give up on people's ability to, to, to go there, like, you're right that there will be many bochurim and girls who will be so frustrated by the way the system doesn't work out for them, that they won't be willing, at least in that framework, to really go there. I, I, I understand that. But you're also guaranteeing that nobody will do that ever if they never see their mashpiyim doing that, if they never see their hanhalah doing that. Like, if we cut off the, even the capacity to do it from, like, a priori, this is, we're not doing it, so then no one's gonna do it. Like, why should I do it if... You know what I mean? So I think that's-

1:06:33 Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, agreed. I think that there's definitely a problem in the fact that we're not, we're not teaching it and we're not, we're not being the, the duk machaya, right, for, for, for that introspection. I think where I would differ a bit is the fact that I think... Yeah, agree that there is a, there is an ability and a need to teach. One of the things I do, um, and I, I sort of like to pride myself, is, um, nurturing the mind for, for, for this type of analy- an- analysis and ability to think deeper and to probe life and to really ask these questions. I challenge my students, you know, to, to go that deep, to try to go that deep, and I, I do think that that's... There's a lost art there. Um, you know, the Frieda Kremer talks in Kollel Chinuch V'Hadracha, something which is a lost piece of art, I feel, that, you know, we're running off to all different types of experts today, and the Frieda Kremer really, I think, lays it all out, and it's an har- It's a hard book to read, but really lays it all out in there. And the idea of intuitive education, where you understand the student from where the student is and being able to nurture the student from that perspective, not about you, but them. And one of the things you build in them is this, these, these, the, the, the depth. The depth... I deal with a lot of You

1:08:13 Speaker 3 know, students have been hurt already. They've been already turned off, and because of that, the hurt and the depth that they have been... The, the, I'm sorry, the depth, the, the hurt has led to a lot of depth.

1:08:25 Speaker 2 So why don't you talk a little bit, just give a short background of, of, of what you've been doing the past, so as you're already-

1:08:31 Speaker 3 Probably fifteen years. I started out as, um... In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. The yeshiva in Wilkes-Barre now is actually in the Poconos, but-

1:08:42 Speaker 2 Right

1:08:42 Speaker 3 ... um, those who are not familiar, it's a yeshiva that was started for, you know, the teenager who doesn't fit into the system, what they call it, and I guess you could say was angry at first.

1:08:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:59 Speaker 3 Angry at religion. Um, I, I came there probably in twenty-oh-oh-eight, 'oh-nine, and I, I was there for many years, got married, and I moved to here, Los Angeles, and then the last four or five years, I'm working in a yeshiva, like a sister yeshiva, um, Jets in the Valley, that sort of works within the same type of-

1:09:23 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:23 Speaker 3 ... um, with the same type of approach.

1:09:26 Speaker 2 What, what, what, what led you to, to, to go... Like, why did you end up there? That's... It's not, that's not the kind of yeshiva you went to as a bachur, right?

1:09:35 Speaker 3 No. I have, I've had, I never had an interest in this field. Education was never something that I sort of thought myself of getting into at all. It sort of just happened, if you wanna say fate.

1:09:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:52 Speaker 3 Um, my initial interactions was a cultural shock. Um-

1:09:58 Speaker 2 So you just ended up there, like, as a job?

1:10:01 Speaker 3 Well, yeah. I mean, my year after smicha, I was intended actually to go to Israel to get the Smicha Rabbonut, so to take my, you know, to take a, a full course in the smicha there. Um, I got, I was sick. I wasn't really able to travel, and then things just happened that I was home. And like mid-year, a friend of mine said that, "Hey, you know, the yeshiva in Wilkes-Barre is looking for someone to come to maybe, you know, open up a smicha program or something like that." And so I met up with, uh, the director, Uri Perlman.

1:10:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:36 Speaker 3 And we had a great conversation. Um, and we, I guess you could say hit it off then, and I came a few weeks later. I started then a smicha program then for the shluchim and some older guys. Most of the guys were older than me. Um, and I was sort of, like, living on this level, and I had to learn how to come down to this level, and I didn't know how to do that at first. So I decided that it's not for me, and I, I, I sort of had gone through this, like, rollercoaster ride as to whether this is really what I should be doing in life or this is... I'm capable of doing. Um, but I guess out of sheer sense of idealism, I kept on going. I kept on being there, you know. I, I, I believed in the concept. I still believe in the concept. I believe that my purpose in life is not, um, strictly for my selfish pleasure, um, which if it would be, I probably would prefer hiding away in a cave, you know, with a nice library. Um-

1:11:54 Speaker 2 Right on. That's what you like?

1:11:56 Speaker 3 Um, in my fantasy world. Reality obviously doesn't provide that.

1:12:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:02 Speaker 3 I mean, thank God I have a wife and kids, so-

1:12:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:12:04 Speaker 3 ... you know.

1:12:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, they can't come to the cave with you.

1:12:07 Speaker 3 They... Right, it'll be hard. It'll be hard. Um, but... And, and that has made the shift in itself, like priorities, interests, pleasures have changed because of that. Once you have a wife and children, things change because of that. But I, I, I came to the realization, I guess you could say, that what you know you're good at but you find the hardest to do is sort of your purpose.

1:12:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:12:39 Speaker 3 So for me, I saw, I guess I'm good at what I do, and I also recognize the struggle daily doing it, um, meaning being motivated to do it, and it's... From that idealistic point of view, I believe that's what I should be doing.

1:13:01 Speaker 2 But it almost sounds from what you've been talking about up to this point that in a way, that's the only kind of yeshiva that you could work in.

1:13:09 Speaker 3 Oh, for sure. Oh, no doubt about it. Uh-

1:13:12 Speaker 2 So you're saying the sacrifice is not this yeshiva over another yeshiva, it's whether or not to be in a yeshiva at all.

1:13:17 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

1:13:18 Speaker 2 But if you're gonna be in a yeshiva, this is the only kind of yeshiva you can work in.

1:13:21 Speaker 3 For sure. Uh, I, I, I have been asked, been approached by other yeshivas.

1:13:31 Speaker 2 But quote, unquote, "regular"-

1:13:33 Speaker 3 Mainstream

1:13:33 Speaker 2 ... mainstream yeshivas.

1:13:35 Speaker 3 And-

1:13:36 Speaker 2 No interest?

1:13:37 Speaker 3 I... No, I, I gave them a forty-five-minute rundown of why I think what they're doing is wrong.

1:13:44 Speaker 2 Yeah, so no interest, I guess is-

1:13:45 Speaker 3 And they said, "So you're not, not interested, you just wanna do it your way?" And I said, "Yes, pretty much."

1:13:51 Speaker 2 Oh, if you, if they would let you do it your way, you would go?

1:13:54 Speaker 3 In other words, if I could run my own system in their yeshiva-

1:13:57 Speaker 2 You would do it

1:13:57 Speaker 3 ... I would do it because I think that most bachurim currently in yeshiva could use that change.

1:14:04 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:14:05 Speaker 3 So why should they lose out?

1:14:08 Speaker 2 And so what does that change? It's what you're talking about here, where basically you're ready to question everything?

1:14:13 Speaker 3 Yeah. I started a class in Wilkes-Barre, um, theology class.

1:14:22 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:14:23 Speaker 3 And the premises of the class was that we are not going to, we are not going to bring in sources. We are gonna just be using our own minds to try to uncover truths about the world-

1:14:38 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:38 Speaker 3 ... existence, God, religion.

1:14:42 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:43 Speaker 3 I c- I stopped that class pretty fast because I realized that for some who were joining, they weren't ready for that journey. So I, I, I sort of learned a lesson from that, so I am a little bit-

1:14:56 Speaker 2 You're saying some people were on the fence, and then they got exposed to very-

1:14:59 Speaker 3 Yeah. In other words, people weren't ready. Like I spoke before about this objective-

1:15:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:04 Speaker 3 ... introspection, and I realized that although this is what I believe in or I feel is what's needed today, I also realized that I shouldn't be confusing people, you know, in that sense, right? The objective is to, to bring clarity and objectivity. Um, I still do it-

1:15:27 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:27 Speaker 3 ... but in, in, in a much more of a-

1:15:30 Speaker 2 Measured way

1:15:30 Speaker 3 ... measured way, yeah.

1:15:32 Speaker 2 I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to understand your philosophy more as we're talking. I mean, in a way, the only way a person can be an Atsmi, right? If, if, if, if the purpose is to be an Atsmi, the only way to be an Atsmi is to ask the questions that go all the way.

1:15:54 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:54 Speaker 2 Right? Right. An Atsmi cannot ask halfway questions. Meaning if an Atsmi... If one will argue that an Atsmi has answers that go all the way, you must also say that an Atsmi has questions that go all the way. So it's, it's a double-edged sword, for sure, right? Um, and I think that goes back to my original point, is that it seems like there's a lot of Atsmis who have all the answers, but fewer Atsmis that have the questions. But I guess a question that I would ask is, how do you see... Clearly, you think that that is the optimal way of, of Chinuch today, um, in a world where half-baked questions and half-baked answers, um, lose their appeal very quickly. But how does that vibe with the idea of a, like, in general, not even about Chinuch, but in general, like, with Emunah, like, how do we, how do we live with an Emunah where, where are we, are we ready to question that very Emunah, that very foundation? Like, we, like, are we allowed to go there? Or are we always convinced that none of that... There's always, like, Beovis, there's always an answer, but in that case, we're not really asking the full question, right? Like, in that moment of, of the question, like, how far are we ready to go?

1:17:30 Speaker 3 So I think there's two, I think there's two levels to your question. There's the question, at what age does this begin?

1:17:36 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:17:36 Speaker 3 Because-

1:17:37 Speaker 2 That's a more technical question.

1:17:38 Speaker 3 That's technical, but it's important in, in, in dealing with this question.

1:17:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:17:43 Speaker 3 Um, I do think a person has to be, as Altreb explains in Chinuch Katan, there has to be the "Chanech l'na'ar pida," you do have to have some sort of foundation upon which you are building. Um, I, I would like to believe that the Rambam was able to write the Moreh Nevuchim-

1:18:01 Speaker 2 Right

1:18:01 Speaker 3 ... and still believe in God, not because he proved it through his Aristotelian, you know, principles that he laid out in Moreh Nevuchim, but because he believed in God to begin with, and that was so real to him. Now he's gonna talk to those who are, as he writes in the introduction, you know, knowledgeable in both Torah and philosophy, and how do we merge the two together, sort of something like that idea.

1:18:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:26 Speaker 3 Um, I think for the, you know, for, for, you know, this type of questioning, there needs to be at least... You know, you can't just shoot up a rocket going nowhere. You have to have some sort of base where you're working off. So that's the question of age, which I guess, uh, maybe it's not answering anything, but just something to keep in mind. But to answer the question, um, yeah, I think we do need to question our faith. Not asking... You see, there's two different types of questions. There's the question of, how do I know that God exists?

1:19:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:19:05 Speaker 3 Um, that's, that's an intellectual question that's not answerable.

1:19:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:19:12 Speaker 3 There is no answer intellectually to know that God exists.

1:19:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:16 Speaker 3 You could talk about a first cause, which philosophers talk about, right?

1:19:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:21 Speaker 3 Uh, you could talk about a, uh, designer.

1:19:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:26 Speaker 3 Right? Sort of if you talk about the Elohai.

1:19:28 Speaker 2 How, you could talk how it's pro- the most probable-

1:19:30 Speaker 3 Reasonable, probable-

1:19:32 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:32 Speaker 3 ... idea, but f- well, that's not the God we're talking about anyway.

1:19:35 Speaker 2 No.

1:19:35 Speaker 3 When Altreb talks about, you know, in, in, in Shaarei Yichud ve-Emunah, that it's, uh, 'cause it's "Anachnu maaminim be-emuna," he means "Anachnu maaminim be-emuna," that's why we believe in that, in the God of Yichud V'Elo.

1:19:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:48 Speaker 3 So when you're asking h-how do I know God exists, I would just say that's a foolish question. Because my definition of God, which is a problem in terms even to use such language, but if I would say my definition of God resides beyond logic.

1:20:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:20:07 Speaker 3 If it resides beyond logic, I can never use logic to understand it.

1:20:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:11 Speaker 3 Furthermore, logic itself is a tool that is contradictory.

1:20:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:16 Speaker 3 Every thesis has an antithesis-

1:20:18 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:18 Speaker 3 ... as Kant has pointed out. So you can't really go down a path of asking, "How do I know there's a God?"

1:20:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:28 Speaker 3 Um, and to make the point even stronger, especially if we, if we believe in certain Kantian ideas and even postmodernist ideas of sort of a subjective reality, you're working off a question as if there's some sort of objective ontological system through which you could prove the existence of God, which the Rishonim have tried, the earlier philosophers have tried, and there's always a counter answer to that. So when you're asking about the questions of basic Emunah, that type of questioning I don't think really gets you somewhere.

1:21:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:07 Speaker 3 But if we're dealing with the question in terms of how do I know anything, period, sort of epistemologically, how do I know anything exists, which has been the quest of s- philosophers and science for the past three, four hundred years, starting with, you know, Rene Descartes and the Enlightenment. You know, Rene Descartes is famous for saying that the only thing he knows is the I, 'cause, you know, the consciousness-

1:21:32 Speaker 2 I think, therefore I am

1:21:32 Speaker 3 ... I think, therefore I am. Um, but that concept in itself, right, that concept in itself of trying to know anything, of knowing that there is any existence, any reality, I think that is very important. That type of question has to be asked. And within that qu- within that quest, that the existence of God plays a role.

1:21:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:22:00 Speaker 3 So I do believe that's important.

1:22:02 Speaker 2 So, so is the division that you're making between ontology and epistemology, or is it more a question, a, a, a division of trying to understand the objective reality as opposed to trying to understand my subjective reality? Like, what am I grounded in?

1:22:22 Speaker 3 I think they're tied together.

1:22:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:23 Speaker 3 Because I think that if you ask the question epistemologically, I personally, I may be called a kofer, but I personally don't believe that there is a real objective reality that we can know of. In that sense-

1:22:41 Speaker 2 Right

1:22:41 Speaker 3 ... that question of the ontological-

1:22:45 Speaker 2 Why are you a kofer? Isn't the whole thing of, of Matan Torah that in that, uh, we saw it, and, uh, nobody else, and, and we... I mean, those are senses.

1:22:55 Speaker 3 Yeah. So agreed.

1:22:56 Speaker 2 That's, those are subjective... That's the whole point, isn't it?

1:22:59 Speaker 3 That's Abarbanel's point. Abarbanel says there's only two-

1:23:01 Speaker 2 Abarbanel says that?

1:23:02 Speaker 3 I think Abarbanel wanna, either hear or-

1:23:03 Speaker 2 But the, the, the original lessons from the Rambam.

1:23:06 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:06 Speaker 2 But, uh, Abarbanel explains that in the Rambam?

1:23:08 Speaker 3 And the Marin of Ucham, I believe that's the way he explains that concept, that there was sort of like that subjective intuition, if you wanna say, that, that had that. I mean, that was an experience.

1:23:17 Speaker 2 Subjective intuition?

1:23:19 Speaker 3 Well, yeah. I mean, it was our experience.

1:23:21 Speaker 2 Right. And it was passed on by tradition.

1:23:24 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:24 Speaker 2 That's the whole point, which by the way, goes back to the idea of trust.

1:23:27 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:27 Speaker 2 If you, uh, the moment trust is broken-

1:23:30 Speaker 3 The whole thing falls apart

1:23:30 Speaker 2 ... there's no maser. Like, what, are you gonna go start arguing now? Like, you, you... Anybody that has a friend or a classmate or a brother who's kind of lost this, what we call emunah, you know very, very, r-right away that the argument here, or the debate, or the discussion, whatever your relationship is, it's not about proofs whether or not God exists. Right? That, that's, that's not what's going on here. Right? What's going on here is a broken trust. That's what's going on here.

1:24:04 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

1:24:04 Speaker 2 It's a broken trust, okay? And, and, and I think that go, you know, so, so the question then becomes, if the person is looking to rebuild trust, which is a very big if, how do you rebuild that trust, right? Um, a-and, a-and, um, all I would venture to say is, is that there's no way you're going to rebuild trust with somebody else if you don't have trust in yourself.

1:24:30 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. And that's part of the problem, that w-w-w- the reason why you could perhaps lose the trust of someone else so, and have such a, ha-have such a deter- detrimental effect on you is because you didn't really trust yourself to begin with.

1:24:45 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:45 Speaker 3 You're relying on the other in the sense of that. And this w- this goes back to the point I was making about this epistemological journey-

1:24:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:24:54 Speaker 3 ... to knowing that God exists, because as the Rabbi points out in the Sikha, if a person just has emunah-

1:24:59 Speaker 2 Right

1:24:59 Speaker 3 ... the simple, a simple challenge to it, it pops.

1:25:05 Speaker 2 It pops.

1:25:06 Speaker 3 So you lost the trust. But the reason why you lost the trust is because there wasn't a trust, there wasn't a real trust to begin with. A real trust means, is that I know who I am, and I know my limitations, and I've explored the reasons, reason here has to have a certain connotation, but it has a certain connotation, reasons as to why I trust.

1:25:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:31 Speaker 3 Like if you learn Shar Batachan, right? Rabina Bahaya lays out seven reasons, sort of why you should trust God, right? Now, trust is not a reasonable thing. It's not logical.

1:25:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:40 Speaker 3 It's not, it's not, it's not a reasoned... That doesn't take you through reason, but it grounds you in being able to trust.

1:25:47 Speaker 2 All right.

1:25:49 Speaker 3 And when you don't have that, so you just kept, uh, like you said, you just kept the flow of the tradition going, and as soon as someone stops you and says, "Hey," you know, you know, like the, the story of Rab Levius, like if someone was running in the marketplace, and Rab Levius stops him and says, like, "Where are you running?" You know? He says, "Well, I'm running for my pranos." He says, "How do you know pranos is this way? Maybe it's that way," you know?

1:26:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:10 Speaker 3 All of a sudden, everything freezes and stops.

1:26:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:12 Speaker 3 Oh, really? You know.

1:26:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:13 Speaker 3 So I've been believing this whole thing my whole life, and it's really not so true, you know?

1:26:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:18 Speaker 3 So, but if you know that your pranos is that way, and now someone stops you, I'll explain to you where I'm coming from, type of thing. So the Rabbi points that out in the Sikha, and I think that-

1:26:30 Speaker 2 I, I wanna add a little bit to that point. It could be that your pranos is taken that, that way, but if you learned how to make the cheshbon, I mean, if you're running there because you have decided, you have figured out that your pranos is that way, when someone points out to you that you made a mistake-

1:26:52 Speaker 3 You don't fall apart

1:26:52 Speaker 2 ... you don't fall apart. You okay, okay.

1:26:54 Speaker 3 Yeah. You're right.

1:26:55 Speaker 2 I, I, I adjust.

1:26:56 Speaker 3 I adjust. Exactly.

1:26:56 Speaker 2 I adjust. It's only when you never made the cheshbon in the first place, someone else told you, you just followed them blindly, when someone points out to you that, that it's wrong, you're like, "Okay, I was lied to."

1:27:09 Speaker 3 Exactly.

1:27:10 Speaker 2 Right? It, it's, it's such a perfect mashal.

1:27:14 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:14 Speaker 2 Such a perfect mashal. It, it's That's what tr- that's what's so beautiful about trust, and, and, and Balak says, talks about it at, at length, the idea of, of, of shur, right? That you, shur is, is, is how you trust someone despite the other person's failings, despite, despite all the reasons to the contrary, you still trust because there's a deeper bond there. Meaning, you're, you're assuming that that person is gonna make mistakes, and certainly can make mistakes. That's the whole point. If you, if you, if you don't have that assumption, you don't need trust.

1:27:49 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:49 Speaker 2 Trust assumes that there, that there's, that there's, that there is-

1:27:52 Speaker 3 Disappointments also.

1:27:53 Speaker 2 Yes. And, and, and yet you still trust. Why do you trust? Because, because there's a deeper connection. It's fascinating.

1:28:02 Speaker 3 And, and, and, and, you know, even in my own world, I like the French... I like saying about myself, I have my intuitive sort of bitl side, and my intellectual yes side.

1:28:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:17 Speaker 3 In other words, intellectually, I have all these questions, and not necessarily they're answered intellectually at all.

1:28:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:24 Speaker 3 But then I explore the intuitive side, which is what I believe is that more epistemological side. And, you know, this is running through a bigger discussion about, you know, you know, goes back to the argument between Kant and René Descartes of how do you know something to be true?

1:28:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:42 Speaker 3 That's been a core of philosophy over the last few hundred years. I, I believe, and this is my process, and this is what I try to teach my students, is that we journey through our subjective self through that intuit- intuitive process. In- in- intuitive input, uh, uh, the, the epistemology, my epistemological journey is through my intuition. And I know there is obviously people that question what that means and all that, and I guess we'll leave that for a second. But what that helps one discover is, like you said, that trust of that I know this to be true. And, and a very simple analogy for this, I think it's like almost obvious, you know, why does anyone get married?

1:29:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:34 Speaker 3 I'm talking about married.

1:29:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:29:36 Speaker 3 I'm not talking about someone that is looking to, you know-

1:29:38 Speaker 2 Shacking up.

1:29:39 Speaker 3 Right. So there's nothing logical about marriage.

1:29:43 Speaker 2 No.

1:29:44 Speaker 3 In fact, it's count-

1:29:45 Speaker 2 I mean, your question is, why does anybody stay married?

1:29:47 Speaker 3 Okay, but that is rooted in why you even got there, really.

1:29:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Right.

1:29:51 Speaker 3 You know, like-

1:29:51 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:51 Speaker 3 ... to say, "I do," right? Or, or, or the way I present this in another way is, like, when I, I, I would ask you a question, do you think your mother loves you? Do, do, do, if I, it... Does your mother love you?

1:30:04 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:30:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:30:05 Speaker 2 Prove it to me.

1:30:05 Speaker 3 Prove it to me. Or better yet, why?

1:30:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:09 Speaker 3 As soon as you put it now into that logical structure-

1:30:12 Speaker 2 It-

1:30:12 Speaker 3 ... all of a sudden it falls apart. You'll be ecking and becking and saying, "Well, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right."

1:30:16 Speaker 2 That's, well, that's what's so nauseating about academia, right?

1:30:19 Speaker 3 Oh, for sure.

1:30:19 Speaker 2 When you see, like, an academic paper on, like, the, the Hasid-Rebbe relationship, and then they start saying Schneerson, you know, and it's like, it's not even the lack of respect. It's just the, like, the, the, the total tone deafness.

1:30:32 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:30:33 Speaker 2 Like, like you're trying to break down analytically something that is well beyond analysis. Like it's not, that's not what this is about.

1:30:43 Speaker 3 No.

1:30:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:44 Speaker 3 If you're taking what I believe common sense, you know, the Declaration of Independence has this line, "We hold these truths to be self-evident."

1:30:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:53 Speaker 3 I mean, what does that even mean?

1:30:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:55 Speaker 3 There's a certain intuitive sense that tells you all men are created equal. I don't know if that's true, but l- let's assume-

1:31:05 Speaker 2 That, well, that's what they decided

1:31:06 Speaker 3 ... that's what they decided. In other words, there's a place, whether you wanna call it, let's say, Jung may call it a collective unconscious, you know?

1:31:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:13 Speaker 3 It's sort of, but there is definitely a space beyond reason-

1:31:18 Speaker 2 Right

1:31:18 Speaker 3 ... which, you know, there's a letter that Jung himself wrote where he was once interviewed, his last interview, where he, he was asked, does he know there's a God? He says, does he believe there's a God? He says, "I don't believe. I know." And then, like, all the leftists got all angry, like, "Oh, you know, you're saying there's a God," and he wrote a whole letter explaining basically what he means by God. But essentially, what he's describing in that letter is this intuitive epistemology.

1:31:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:41 Speaker 3 What, that's essentially what he's saying. Uh, or as Kier- Kierkegaard, who also describes, you know, "With all the philosophy in the world, I look up in the sky, in the heavens or whatever, and I, I can't deny."

1:31:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:54 Speaker 3 What that means is, is that what you're rooting yourself in, just like you know your parents love you-

1:31:59 Speaker 2 Right

1:31:59 Speaker 3 ... and just like you made a decision, and you keep on staying married despite the ups and downs, that's, and that's on trust. That's where that trust is built, and I think every, I think it's a, it's, it's, it's an imperative of not just Chabad Hasid, but every Jew, to go to that place.

1:32:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:32:19 Speaker 3 And I think that's part of what I think the Rebbe challenges us, going back to before, in the Mayim Arah. Because he's asking those questions that would make you think, "Well, maybe not." And you have to go through that intuitive journey to-

1:32:37 Speaker 2 That's so interesting, 'cause a lot of people would say the Mayim Arah are, like, very forceful, like, that there isn't a question.

1:32:45 Speaker 3 The, you see, okay, so this is sort of like a, a dynamic of the Rebbe, and obviously we're talking here with, obviously we're trying to, to, to understand this as much as in a And it turns off people.

1:33:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:27 Speaker 3 Like you said before, the fallout, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, the, the pushback as a result of such a idealistic approach.

1:33:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:35 Speaker 3 And the way I look at it, and again, I could be wrong, and I ask mechilah from the Rebbe and from anybody else listening to this who thinks it's different. I think the Rebbe is s- telling us, "This is the ideal."

1:33:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:49 Speaker 3 And if you're living in that space, in that ultimate trust, you could do this.

1:33:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:56 Speaker 3 Right? Now, are you there yet?

1:33:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:34:00 Speaker 3 The Rebbe's job is to get you there. The Rebbe's job is to wake you up and make you realize, like I said, "Vat et tzav mimeid," saying, "You really have this capacity."

1:34:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:09 Speaker 3 Now, at the end of the day, we are, uh, self-preserving human beings-

1:34:15 Speaker 2 Right

1:34:15 Speaker 3 ...that look out for ourselves-

1:34:16 Speaker 2 Sure

1:34:16 Speaker 3 ...and deal with a lot of anxiety.

1:34:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:20 Speaker 3 And because of that, we're may not be holding there.

1:34:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:34:25 Speaker 3 That's not a contradiction.

1:34:26 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:34:26 Speaker 3 The Rebbe is not saying, you know-

1:34:29 Speaker 2 I see what you're saying

1:34:30 Speaker 3 ...kill yourself. It's not like sacrifice yourself, you know, uh, and, and sort of just like give up on reality-

1:34:39 Speaker 2 Right

1:34:39 Speaker 3 ...and be- g- give up on yourself for this higher idealism.

1:34:42 Speaker 2 You could do it.

1:34:43 Speaker 3 You could do it. Empowering, that's the word, you know, like-

1:34:46 Speaker 2 I see, I see what you're saying, empowering and challenging at the same time. What you're saying is that when you learn the Rebbe's Maimon, there's this, there's this possibility to see, oh, it's very simple. It's very glut. Like it's, everything just very, very smooth, it flows. The, the questions are answered and, you know, very nice. You're not discount... You're not saying... So that's where a lot of people say, "Well, in many ways, it's, it's not so challenging. It- if anything, it almost feels too simple." What you're saying is that it's only so simple because you don't realize that there's a distance. You're, you're, you're, you're missing the point in a way. You're, you're taking it as another abstraction. When, what the Rebbe is saying is that this is a reality, now see how do you stack up against this reality?

1:35:42 Speaker 3 Exactly.

1:35:43 Speaker 2 Right?

1:35:43 Speaker 3 That's the challenge also.

1:35:44 Speaker 2 And when, when, when you make that, when you, when you, when you include that in the cheshbon, suddenly that's where it starts sounding like the cheshbon ha-nefesh of an atzmi. Right? Maybe it's not cheshbon ha-nefesh of, of kind of traditional introspection that focuses on a specific detail and, you know, spends a lifetime working on this middah, let's say. But it's, it's constantly con- confronting the ultimate truths, which is far more exhausting, actually. Right? It's like... And, and I love how you're putting this whole family planning thing, which by the way, I had this very identical conversation with somebody last week, not on the podcast, but, and I literally made the same point that you did, which is, like it's, it's, the, the whole, the whole framework is kind of... I feel like the, the, the debate, if there is a debate, a public debate about it at all, it's kind of missing the point. It's like, it's like team big family, team small family. Like, like, and then everybody tries to kind of fit the Rebbe into their, into their team, right? So the team big families says, "Well, the Rebbe said clearly to have a big family." The team small families says, "Well, the Rebbe didn't really know." It's like the Rebbe's talking here, guys. He's talking up here. We're all down here, right? So, so be honest with yourself and say, "Okay, this is, this is a truth that the Rebbe's talking about." We can all see where it's coming from. Now, the

1:37:24 Speaker 2 next question is: Where do we stand in relation to that truth? Right? A- and I think it's that kind of, it's that... It's a very tricky thing, though. It's a very tricky thing because the moment you go into this space of, you know, terutz atzmus, the chassid, that's an atzmi, all these kind of things, you are asking people to live constantly in this tav ve'puchah space, where on one hand, the Maimon is completely plat- platonic and, and, and very, very simple and somebody once told me it's like, like, like engineer-like, very like, very black and white. But at the same time, it, it exposes all your inadequacies and challenges you to the utmost. Right? It's, it's tav ve'puchah constantly.

1:38:19 Speaker 3 Well, I actually think that is, that is the definition, if there is one, in, you know, the famous story of the Pach and Panim trying to explain that's atzmus. But that's paradox, that's atzmus, that's God. What I mean by that is, is that these two, these, these... You brought out the duality or this paradox in one way.

1:38:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:37 Speaker 3 This tav ve'puchah in the sense of, you know, is this just a systematized, you know, dogmatic almost approach to life versus is it actually a process of self-exploration to get into that deeper realm and being challenged by something more. That is the reality we live in. We live in a reality where we're faced with a certain straightforwardness and simplicity, and we buy into it.