Ep. 13 // "The Other Side of Nostalgia" w/ Dr. Tali Loewenthal

00:00 Speaker 1 See, the other side of nostalgia is the here and now-

00:04 Speaker 2 Right

00:04 Speaker 1 ... as a beautiful reality. And the other side of iso-isolation is you did nothing. You know, that sense of friendship, that's something so powerful and so important.

00:21 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-three. My name is Ben Siafsin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I'm sitting here with Dr. Lowenthal. I got it right, right? Dr. Lowenthal, um, told me it's not professor, it's doctor. And, uh, first of all, thank you very much for agreeing to do this. I know you just got back from Australia, and, um, I am from that side of the world, so I, I know what kind of trip that could be. Um, you know, I... As I was preparing to meet you tonight, I was reading the introduction to your book, and to, to your recent book. And you wrote there about something that has been coming a lot-- been, been coming up a lot in recent conversations, which is the struggle between belief and reasoning, or, uh, emunah and, and hakira, I suppose. And I know there's so much to talk to you about, but I know that many people look up to you as a person who has, if not reconciled the two, has been spending a lifetime on figuring out how one might reconcile the two. And, um, I know, I know many people look up to you as that kind of example. Many are inspired by your example, and I think it would be great to talk a little bit about that, that struggle that many of us deal with or think about, and how you've gone about, um,

02:15 Speaker 2 working on that. So maybe you can just... I, I know that if, if I ask you to tell your story, we could be here all night, which- ... which I don't mind, but I'm not sure that I'm not sure that, uh, that's what you signed up for. But maybe you could just outline a little bit the, the framework or the background with which you first realized that you had that struggle in the first place.

02:44 Speaker 1 Um, I think that, uh, the Rebbe sort of pushed me into that struggle because in my first yechidas, I was in the middle of doing what began a PhD, a doctorate, about Hasidism, but not about Hasidism Chabad. And my basic question to the Rebbe was, "Should I go ahead with this doctorate or should I drop it and instead do snicha or go into business?" I like to think the Rebbe was a bit amused by that said third option. Um, and the Rebbe said I should go on with the doctorate. So I said to the Rebbe, "But if you're doing a doctorate, you have to read a lot of apikoses."

03:53 Speaker 2 Right.

03:54 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe said, uh, "You should write all the footnotes you have to write," which means, you know, reading this or that, and you put a footnote, you know, so and so says this. With a big smile. So in other words, the Rebbe, you know, as I understood it, you know, later talking about it with different people, mashpiyim, you know, the Rebbe was pushing me that I should, uh, you know, get involved with these areas which are problematic and, uh, find a way to deal with them.

04:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:37 Speaker 1 And, um, based on inyanim that the Rebbe himself says in various sichas, quoting, I think quoting the Baal Shem Tov, you see, um, whatever kasha there might be, whatever question there might be, any aspect whatsoever. So there's a kasha. But if you go to a higher olam, then there's no kasha.

05:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:06 Speaker 1 However, in that higher olam, you're gonna find another kasha.

05:13 Speaker 2 Sounds like-

05:13 Speaker 1 So then-

05:14 Speaker 2 Sounds like fun.

05:15 Speaker 1 So then you have to go to yet a higher olam, and so on.

05:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:21 Speaker 1 And, uh, I believe that that is an extremely profound teaching. I can communicate that in simple mathematical terms, that if you have two things in the same, uh, like a one-dimensional thing, and they are behitnakshut, they're conflicting with each other.

05:46 Speaker 2 Right.

05:47 Speaker 1 And they bump each other. They, they can't agree. But if you have a two-dimensional plane, then suddenly they're able, they're, they're able to coexist.

05:58 Speaker 2 Right.

05:59 Speaker 1 And if in two dimensions they can't coexist, then you go to three dimensions, and then you go to four dimensions, and N dimensions, and so on. So you can always go up a, a level. So that means from the point of view of seichel, there's actually always a way out, which is very interesting. Because seichel, when you take seichel in its rainiest, in its purest form, it cannot be categorical. It can only say, you know, X equals A in this situation, or it looks like A, but it might not be. And that's... You know, we, we, we interpret the world. You look at a room. In fact, your eyes are doing an amazing computer analysis of the information that's coming in.

06:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:58 Speaker 1 And it could be completely... It could be interpreted completely differently.

07:02 Speaker 2 Right.

07:04 Speaker 1 So, um, so if you look at seichel in a more rigorous way, seichel and emunah do not have to conflict. In fact, there's a beautiful statement, um, the, the Rebbe in a ha'arah, in a footnote, in a ma'amar. It's the ma'amar Ketz Som LaChoshech.

07:30 Speaker 2 All right.

07:31 Speaker 1 A ma'amar that, uh, uh, the Rebbe said. I think it was said on Tisha B'Av that fell on a Shabbos, I think. And in a ha'arah to that ma'amar, the Rebbe says, quotes in the name of the Rebbe Rashab, that seichel does not have to be afraid of exploring further and further and further because it has, the person can have their point of emunah clear, and so they're not afraid where the seichel's gonna run. It's, uh, you can deal with seichel. Rather like the Rebbe Rashab writes in, uh, Torah Shalom or says, which is written in Torah Shalom, uh, about the way in which the Rambam... He compares the Rambam, l'havdil, to Aristo- to Aristotle. So he says Aristotle, it's seichel which is going here, there. You don't know where it's gonna go. Whereas the Rambam puts the point of emunah in the middle, and then the seichel is like a circle around that point of emunah, but it's, it's anchored. You-

08:46 Speaker 2 Right. So, so that's a beautiful image of the seichel anchored around the emunah. It also... There's, there's something, there's something a little bit haunting about that image as well, where there's the emunah in the center, and then there's a, there's a circle that kind of wanders off almost or is outside of that center and feels like it's on the outside. And yet, in some way, it's still revolving around that center. You know, and, and to pull that into the lived experience as opposed to just the theoretical, you know, th- this is... From, from what I'm hearing and, and seeing and, and also experiencing on some level, there is that tension between how, how far can I wander or how far can I explore and still feel that I'm revolving around that center? And I, I could ask another question. Is it at all... Like, is it even advisable to explore outside that center? Like, maybe, maybe we shouldn't even do it. Like, maybe, maybe that's just like, you know, the good old-fashioned yetzer hara. Like, how do we know?

10:09 Speaker 1 Well, first of all, um, this reminds me of the mamarim of the Friediger Rebbe in the Taf Shiyuns, um, about his b'anus. And he speaks about the way there's the nekuda of chochma, the nekuda of the, the points, the central point of the idea that the person is contemplating. And then they start wandering around in bina, in, in contemplation, in understanding. And they might sometimes wander too far away, and they have to draw themselves back.

10:47 Speaker 2 Right.

10:48 Speaker 1 And sometimes he gives a very beautiful image, like an artist who's painting a painting, and he suddenly feels, "No, no, the painting's not saying what I want to say," and he rubs it out. Um, and, and, and you have to rub out that track. It's no good.

11:05 Speaker 2 So this is a, this is a Friediger Rebbe's ma'amar?

11:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, certain mamarim. I don't think only one ma'amar. It's, uh, at the beginning of the Taf Shiyuns when the Friediger Rebbe was in America. He was, like, teaching people how to do his b'anus.

11:21 Speaker 2 Right. I see.

11:22 Speaker 1 Taf Shin Daled, uh, Taf Shin Alef. And, um, I think the same thing here, that every word has to be measured.

11:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

11:37 Speaker 1 Um, it could sometimes take me, uh, you know, a very long, very long time writing an article or, you know, something that became a chapter in my book, just thinking, you know, exactly how it should be phrased. It should be phrased like this, should be phrased like that. And very often with a sense that this is a, um, a very, uh, you know, gesher tzara. This is a very, like, narrow situation, tightrope, uh, and that a word can throw it into something really negative, and you have to rescue it. And that's why Well, Hashem, every word I wrote in the academic world, I, I showed to Mashpiyim. I remember writing to the Rebbe about this, and, uh, I mentioned Reb Nachman of Breslov, uh, and Solonier of Shmolu. And, uh, the Rebbe put like a circle around those two names. And, um, and so I wanted to give things to Reb Nachman. I said, "Look, show Rabalu." So he became my, uh, my guide in, in academic things. And to this day, the today itself, I, I was giving a lecture in, in college, and I showed him a printout of the PowerPoint that I was gonna show, um, you know, just to, to have his comment. You know. So you, it... You always need another person, a Mashpia, um, a critical eye-

13:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

13:25 Speaker 1 ... uh, looking at what you're doing. You have to have a critical eye, and you, and you need critical eyes beyond you yourself.

13:32 Speaker 2 Right.

13:33 Speaker 1 One of my students is doing a PhD, very spiritual guy. And-

13:40 Speaker 2 Where, where do you teach? Sorry.

13:41 Speaker 1 So I teach in University College London, which is part of London University. In London University, there are many colleges, and this college, Berumtich, you know, it claims to be one of the best colleges. But, uh, so, you know, you have a few big colleges, King's, Imperial, and UCL we call it, University College London. So, uh, one of my doctoral students, so he was telling me how he has this, um, group of Mushelim that he has, and he darshans to them in, you know, Jewish spirituality. So I said to him, "Look, in your only course of life, do you have anyone who can say, 'Wait a minute. That's nonsense?'"

14:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

14:36 Speaker 1 He said, "No." Because all his people are just drinking in his words.

14:42 Speaker 2 Right.

14:43 Speaker 1 So I said, "Then you got a big problem." You have to have someone who can say, "Ah, come off it. Uh, nonsense." You know, "Shtuz. Beis va."

14:54 Speaker 2 So y-you're saying basically, it's almost like when you go swimming in the deep waters in the ocean, very often it's recommended to swim with a partner-

15:04 Speaker 1 Yes

15:04 Speaker 2 ... a buddy. You know? Because the risk does increase the deeper you go into the water. So you can't get rid of the risk entirely, but at least, at least have someone there who can mitigate the risk and, you know, maybe notice something wrong or pull you out or help you out if something goes wrong. That's what it sounds like. I mean, uh, may-maybe I can ask like a, like a, a more direct question. Like, you must know that there are quite a few Lubavitchers who openly have taken up this pathway of trying to bring chassidus to the academic world and marry the two, uh, marry the two, um, universes or horizon... Uh, I think Reuven Lei calls it horizons. I was just by Reuven Lei in Cambridge yesterday, and he just got his own doctorate, right? And, um, and of course, he cites you as an example of someone who did it before him. Are you happy that other Lubavitchers, and I'm not talking about Reuven specifically, but there are many others. Are you happy that others have kind of followed your path, or do you wish that nobody would have known about it or nobody would have thought that that, that was an example?

16:16 Speaker 1 Well, look, uh, the, the difference is that I was already doing a PhD the first time I came to the Rebbe.

16:26 Speaker 2 Right.

16:27 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe's general derech with Lubavoner, people who were becoming Lubavitch, Baalei Tshuva and so on, is that what they were in the middle of, he would rarely tell them to stop doing that. Rather, they should complete it and use it in the most positive way.

16:47 Speaker 2 Right.

16:48 Speaker 1 Um, and I saw this with a number of other people. Whether, uh, on average, a Lubavitcher who is knowledgeable in the deepest philosophy imaginable in terms of Chabad Chassidus, whether it's the Kotzker of the Alter Rebbe going down through the Rebbe, Ayn Beyis, Reb Rashab, the Rebbe's mamar, the sichas, other inyonim, the subtleties of the Igris Kodesh. Whether a chassid who is steeped in that needs to take any other aspect of knowledge in order to communicate the deepest truths to society, I don't believe that. I believe that the Lubavitch yeshiva and the Lubavitch process of internalization of what he learns in yeshiva is, um, fully enough to transform the world. Now, certain people Might feel a need for themselves for this reason, for that reason, um, that there's, uh, you know, this extra dimension of communication that they wanna get into. They've, you know, they've learned their Chassidus. Now they want to, um, publicize it, let's say, communicate it on another level. Like you might say, you know, you've learned some very beautiful maimas, you wanna make a video about it. All right, so that's one thing. Or you wanna write an article about it, so where do you wanna put the article? You wanna put it in, uh, uh, a Frum publication? Okay, so you can write about the Maima as a Maima. The Rebbe Rashab said such and such or, you know, the Lubavitch Rebbe. Um, but it could be that you want to en-enter into a completely cold world of seichel chutzah

19:15 Speaker 1 sh'b'chutzah. So you have to be melbish the Maima or the insights from the Maima into completely, um, different clothing, different levushim, uh, where you're quoting this, uh, philosopher or that philosopher. All right, so that's, uh, ala v'oyda. I know that Reuven did everything he did with the advice of a mashpia, you know? So-

19:42 Speaker 2 No, I'm not talking about him specifically, but I mean, I, I just, I just happened to be with him yesterday, and he's very open about it 'cause he published a book about it. That's why I used his name.

19:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

19:50 Speaker 2 And I also know that you know him. But there, there are quite a few others. But I guess my question then would be-

19:55 Speaker 1 Well, so the, the crucial thing is mashpia. You know, the kind of thing that you would ask the Rebbe in yechidus, "Rebbe, should I do this or that?"

20:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:06 Speaker 1 So now we ask a mashpia. So the Rebbe's empowered the whole system of mashpiyim. And so working with a mashpia, you know, "Should a person do this? Should a person do that?"

20:19 Speaker 2 D- But, but what you just said earlier, just to, to follow up on the questioning, so you said that you believe that, um, a, a... There's no need, besides for trying to reach a world that only speaks a certain kind of lingo or, or thinks a certain way, for the person himself or herself, there is no need to learn philosophy to develop their thinking of Chassidus, correct?

20:49 Speaker 1 That's it. That's true.

20:52 Speaker 2 But so how, how then do you explain... W- so but there are many people who feel that just by learning Chassidus, for example, I, I think there's two things that I, that I've picked up on. Some people feel that just by learning Chassidus itself, um, they don't feel like the vocabulary is available enough for them to really understand it. So when they go to other, other kinds of l- other kinds of texts, they pick up ideas that then help them understand the Chassidus in a different way. Maybe because the English is more sophisticated, or in general, they're approaching the ideas from a different vantage point, and now they can see it, the, the original Chassidus ideas in a new light. I've heard people say that. I've also... I also think a lot of people fall into these other philosophies, whether it starts off as a more casual perusing of, I don't know, something, uh, in the news that mentions a kind of philosophy. Like I know myself, and I know others who started reading some existentialism more as, initially as a curiosity than anything, and then eventually got a little bit deeper into it. And many people are far deeper than I. Um, so d-do you, do you, do you, do you believe that there's no reason at all for, for certainly younger people today to feel like that just Chassidus alone, maybe, maybe there is all the truth in there, beinyan, but in terms of accessibility, they are looking for other tools, or they're

22:34 Speaker 2 looking for other vocabularies just to fully engage their mind? Or is that just, in your view, yetzer hara?

22:46 Speaker 1 L- Leave the yetzer hara out of it.

22:49 Speaker 2 Okay.

22:51 Speaker 1 Um.

22:51 Speaker 2 I don't know, I don't know, 'cause that's what people tell me all the time.

22:53 Speaker 1 Yetzer hara, it's easy, you know, it's, uh, it's an easy, uh, catch-all. But let's just look at what's the best advice for a person. Um, so let's say there's a certain inyan that the person has learned in Chassidus, and the question is, what meaning does that inyan have for him or her?

23:16 Speaker 2 Right.

23:17 Speaker 1 Is it something grippingly relevant?

23:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

23:22 Speaker 1 Or is it something which is just, you know, like words that, um, you know, a person teaching a maim, you know, the Rebbe's hag. You know, it's like, uh, from a far-off, uh, world.

23:39 Speaker 2 Right.

23:40 Speaker 1 So then we have to try and find ways to get to deeper and deeper levels of that inyan itself. There's a beautiful letter from the, uh, Friediger Rebbe to a young woman called Chaya Sima Michailova. She was one of the Aches HaTmimim group in Riga. And she wrote a letter to the Rebbe, to the Friediger Rebbe, saying, "What should I do about rekus hameisim?" The emptiness of action.

24:17 Speaker 2 Mm.

24:18 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe replied with a very, very profound letter that if it had been written to, uh, Rebbe Chadokov, for example, it's, it's a little bit comparable to letters that were written to Rebbe Chadokov. You would say it's a stunning letter. But it's written to this young woman, unmarried woman, eighteen, nineteen. There's even a photo of her, uh, available. So a y-young, a young woman. And, uh, Lubavitch woman. And, uh, or a girl in Aches HaTmimim. She did various things, uh, like, you know, activities, uh, translating things into Latvian, I think. Um, so, um, so the Rebbe gives her, the Friediger Rebbe gives her a way of taking a concept and going into its depths. That there's the meise, and then there's the dibbur, and then there's the machshava of that concept. It's an idea mentioned in Tanya as well. But then you take the level of machshava, there's maaseh shebhamachshava, and then dibbur, and then machshavas. You get like machshava squared, you know, machshava times machshava.

25:36 Speaker 3 Okay.

25:36 Speaker 1 And then you can go even higher and higher-

25:39 Speaker 3 Sure

25:40 Speaker 1 ... with the impression that what you're doing is you're getting closer and closer and closer to the elokus, which is in that idea.

25:50 Speaker 3 Mm.

25:51 Speaker 1 Now, this is an amazing thing and a letter from the Rebbe to this young woman. But every word that we learn in Hasidus or in Kabbalah, for that matter, has this spiritual power in it. And the challenge for us, whether it's machanim or as students, or as mashpiyim is, or mushmuim, is to find that elokus, like the famous, uh, saying which the, um, the Baal Shem Tov says in, uh, in his letter, uh, the Igeres HaKodesh, the one which, uh, we often quote, uh, about the Chassidim futzuman et zecher chutzah. The letter actually goes on. It's in Keses Shem Tov on the first page. The letter goes on and it says, "This I can tell you." He's writing to his brother-in-law, Reb Moshe. "This I can tell you." Bechol asfer ason, every single letter that you daven or learn or say, there's olmos, neshamas, and elokus.

27:02 Speaker 3 Right.

27:03 Speaker 1 Worlds, souls, and Godliness. And the letters join together and become a word, and the words rise higher and higher, and you should join your own neshamah in with that as it's going up, and it comes to a ecstatic simcha, ecstatic joyfulness. Now, this elokus, which is there, uh, there's another word in Hayom Yom about the sechel which is in a concept, the chayas which is in the concept, and the elokus which is in a concept. Very similar. The idea that we should be looking for the deepest level. Now, whether reading existentialism or some other form of philosophy is gonna help that process or muddle it up, is, is, uh, you know, is a, is a, is a discussion point. The point is that people... I mean, I, I think people have different types. You know, some people like black coffee and, uh, others don't. They prefer mint tea.

28:16 Speaker 3 Right.

28:17 Speaker 1 So can you be marbitch, your Hasidus in a cup of black coffee? Or does it have to be mint tea if, if you happen to prefer coffee? So the Aibishter created us in such a way that the different tchanas that we have, you know, we can put it into this, we can put it into that. Like, you know, what are people shlichim? Where are they shlichim? What kind of shlichas? You can be a shliach among farmers, you can be a shliach among professors, you can be a shliach with children, teaching children alephs. You can be teaching, um, year 12 kids, uh, uh, subtleties of philosophy and ethics. It's, uh-

28:58 Speaker 3 Right

28:59 Speaker 1 ... you know, where's your chayas? So, uh, usually the Rebbe would put a person into, you know, what they really, you know, where they could really enjoy, enjoy doing what, you know, they might become good at. They might not be good at it at the beginning-

29:23 Speaker 3 Right

29:23 Speaker 1 ... but they eventually become good at it, and, and they do it. And the reason why the enjoyment is important, because, uh, obviously we say, oh, it should be kapel gesol and so on, is because when it's with enjoyment, it's with chayas.

29:38 Speaker 3 Right.

29:38 Speaker 1 It's alive. And you gotta be able to communicate that chayas to whoever you're talking to. You might be talking to a businessman, you're asking him for $100,000. You might be talking to a 16-year-old girl, and you, you, you want her to become a little bit more dedicated to Yiddishkeit.

29:59 Speaker 3 But I, I, I underst-

30:01 Speaker 1 Which is worth more than $100,000.

30:05 Speaker 3 Fair. I mean, I understand the point that you're making. You know, i- almost like... If what I understand what you're saying is that, yes, perhaps, or even let's say that learning some kind of philosophy helps you articulate an idea in a, in a more sophisticated way, that doesn't mean you're coming closer to the true intention of that idea, which is Godliness, right? Um, and so one, one must question whether, whether sophistication in fact equals the true intent of, of, of, of, of this study, or sophistication in this case really getting in the way of it. But I think in some way that kind of leaves the whole question in a abstract space, which I guess for people that like intellectual pursuits, that's exactly where they want it. But I, I do believe, probably because I'm not such an intellectual myself, that most of these things begin in a more emotional place, uh, or in a more personal place. And that is that people want to feel grounded in this world, and they want to feel like, like-- And, and I think I, I, I'm, I'm speaking favorably about what one's intent might be in, in delving in both in the world of Chassidus and philosophy, is that they want the Chassidus that they're thinking, or they want in general their, their mindl- their mind pursuits that they're engaged in to be in a language that carries over to, to, to their engagement with the world as well. So to phrase it as a question, don't

31:55 Speaker 3 you feel that demanding from someone to study Chassidus as Chassidus, meaning only as Chassidus, which just the intent on godliness places a massive, if not impossible challenge on a person to depart from, depart from the world essentially in a certain way? Um, because yes, I under- I understand that the true intent of Chassidus is godliness, but, you know, w- we're-- that's a struggle for a person to identify with that and to feel associated with that, right?

32:31 Speaker 1 Okay, look. Okay, you're wrong.

32:33 Speaker 3 Is that, is that, is that a fair question?

32:34 Speaker 1 Uh, I think it's a fair question, but I think it's based on, um, me not expressing properly what I'm trying to say. Uh, I think that Chassidus is not only godliness, it's godliness as a guide to life and as an analysis of life and as a critical view on life. Life the way it's lived by men, women, children, society, different things that happen. Um, the civil atmosphere of a city, of a community, of a country. All of this is something that Chassidus directly, directly re-relates to.

33:13 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

33:13 Speaker 1 Now, philosophy is a different dimension, you know. And in fact, while in France, famous philosophers are famous like film stars. You know, everyone's heard of them.

33:27 Speaker 3 Sure.

33:27 Speaker 1 And, and, uh, you know, if one of them turns up somewhere, "Oh, wow," you know, "Think who's here." You know, so and so. But in England, it's certainly not like that, and I don't think it is in America either.

33:42 Speaker 3 No, it's not. Nicole Kidman, Nicole Kidman.

33:47 Speaker 1 Um, so, um, i- if you want to engage with reality, you know, that, that's what Chassidus is about. You take the godly Chassidus and then engage with reality. Philosophy is like a kind of alternative strand, as it were, of using sekhel in order... Well, originally, from the way that the Rambam understands it in terms of what Aristotle was trying to do, you know, engage with Elokut. That was what philosophy was. And then philosophy disengaged with Elokut, and-

34:26 Speaker 3 Are, are you talking about recent philosophy, like postmodernism and-

34:30 Speaker 1 Well, so, so then you, so then you come to later, you know, uh, later varieties of, uh, of philosophy. So postmodernism, postmodernism is an interesting question. So I'm just te- speaking from my own experience. So when I began reading about postmodernism or reading postmodernism, let's say, I was very attracted. I thought this very interesting. This is a way to explain what Chassidus is doing.

35:05 Speaker 3 Hmm.

35:06 Speaker 1 'Cause, uh, this idea of, uh, taking away the polarity of things, you know, taking away the hierarchy, recognizing the individual, uh, the closeness of the Rebbe to the Chassid as opposed to the distance of the king from the subject. And not only that, each person being the center of attention. That's a very postmodern idea, and I was, um, uh, I was following a sort of track, um, in terms of talking about Chassidism as postmodernism, as a kind of postmodernism. Now, of course, there are problems 'cause postmodernism is notoriously un- uh, religious in-

35:53 Speaker 3 Right

35:53 Speaker 1 ... in its approach, in its style. Uh, so I thought, no problem. You can have, um, uh, postmodernism incorporates different styles. You can have a religious bit and a non-religious bit, you know. So you can have a postmodern perspective on life, deconstruction, deconstructing polarities, and at the same time, uh, you are, uh, you know, nizar in a, in a, uh, e- everything that a Chassid's supposed to be careful about. Um, but then I suddenly remembered something the Rebbe said to me in Yechidus, and that was in my first Yechidus. So he's talking to me about writing a PhD, and there was a whole thing about Apikosis. Then the Rebbe suddenly said, "Don't compare it to any philosophy."

36:43 Speaker 3 Don't compare Chassidus to any philosophy.

36:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. And at the time when the Rebbe said that to me, I never dreamt of comparing Chassidus to philosophy. What I might have been attracted to was, uh, you know, there's La Havdalah, there's Hinduism, there's this, there's that, you know, like a whole lot of, uh, different things. So the Rebbe was saying, "Don't compare." So bechal I kept away altogether from comparative religion. And then when I was getting into this whole postmodern thing, I suddenly remembered, don't compare Hasidis to philosophy. It would be mugbel Hasidis.

37:23 Speaker 3 Mm.

37:24 Speaker 1 And so I stopped, you know. So my book has, uh, my recent book has a title, Hasidism Beyond Modernity. You know, so it's not exactly... I-it would've been called Hasidism and Modernity if I'd have finished it early enough. But by the time I, uh... You know, as time went on, modernity disappeared, there was postmodernism. Then to be honest, postmodernism also disappeared, you know, so we're now in a post-postmodern time. Um, so it's called, um, uh, so, so it's beyond that. But Hasidism Beyond Modernity has a little, you know, tincture of the postmodern, but it's not mugbel, not limited by it, hopefully. That's, that was my goal.

38:11 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

38:13 Speaker 1 And so therefore, you know, if you extrapolate from that, uh, you know, in the sense that when the Rebbe said something to one person, it's not only to them, you know, it can be applied to other people in similar situations. You know, don't, um, don't try and limit Hasidis. Um, and I don't, you know, I don't think most people do. I think, I think people try to maybe develop vocabularies. You see, you can, you can use words. Certain words are useful. You know, let's say the word deconstruct. So deconstruct, it's like destroy and construct, you know?

38:53 Speaker 3 Right.

38:53 Speaker 1 So you're taking something apart-

38:55 Speaker 3 Right

38:55 Speaker 1 ... but you're actually building something. So it's a useful word, you know.

39:00 Speaker 3 Right.

39:00 Speaker 1 So, uh, how many hours of, uh, Limudei Chaim have to go into the ability to use that word? I don't know.

39:07 Speaker 3 But isn't that, isn't that the nub of the question? I mean, the, the problem, uh, uh... Let, let me, let me pose a question, but also explain why in a way I think it's silly for me to pose a question. The question I would ask you is, like, don't you, aren't you happy that you have these tools, these vocabulary tools, these logical tools, these philosophical tools that you've picked up in school to learn Hasidis? Don't you feel it helps you understand it better? In a way, I'm hesitant to ask that question because I know you said the Rebbe told you to continue it. But I s- thinking about that now, I suppose even if the Rebbe told you not to continue, you would've had that already in the, in the pocket from before. So aren't you happy that you were given... Like, don't-- I shouldn't use the word happy, but don't you feel- Uh, 'cause I think that, I think that's a loaded question and an unfair question, but, like, we don't choose our circums- we don't choose our initial circumstances, so why would... You know. But don't you feel, don't you f- don't, don't you see it as a benefit, or do you see it as a benefit when you learn Hasidis today that you do have these tools? Or do you see them as a necessary evil and a hindrance to get to the essence and the godliness in the Hasidis?

40:31 Speaker 1 I mean, let's put it this way. I would not advise one of my children or grandchildren to study philosophy.

40:42 Speaker 3 Hmm.

40:42 Speaker 1 You know? So the people, the people I care most about, you know, I might learn Hasidis with them.

40:51 Speaker 3 Right.

40:51 Speaker 1 But, um, uh, and, and very much appreciate the subtlety of their understanding and, um, um, be, um, moved by that. Um, but why, you know, the, the, um... To walk in a derech which is full of sakana. The sakana is, it's a sakana of sort of drying out the lechos of the mind. The mind has a certain sap of Yiddish chayas, spiritual chayas. And it's very easy when one is studying some kind of philosophical thing or, you know, any, uh, intellectual structure that, uh, you know, the university, uh, revolves around, you know. Um, uh, it's possible to just lose one's grip on that chayas and just be left with empty shell. Um, which I think the poverty of academic thought, um, contributes to the problems we're seeing at this very instant with, uh, massive, uh, antisemitism on campuses where they are... You know, I'm quite sure these young men and women, you know, you talk to them about postmodernism, they can give you a, you know, bright but beautiful 3,000-word essay.

42:42 Speaker 3 Right. They're very vacant with, with, with, with Kant.

42:46 Speaker 1 And, um, and I heard the Rebbe speak about Kant himself, you know, that, uh, uh... And, and, and, uh, you know, the link of Kant with Nazism.

42:59 Speaker 3 Right.

42:59 Speaker 1 You know, so you can have a, um, a subtle concept which becomes a, a dangerous concept.

43:07 Speaker 3 Right.

43:07 Speaker 1 It's, uh... And, and so why walk onto this dangerous ground if you don't have to? Now, some people have to, A, because they already find themselves on that ground, so you've got to utilize it in some positive way.

43:24 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

43:24 Speaker 1 You know, the Rebbe didn't say to me, "Oh, yeah, quickly jump back into the yeshiva world, do semikhah, you know, forget about all that stuff."

43:33 Speaker 3 Right.

43:33 Speaker 1 You know, so that's not the way of Chabad.

43:36 Speaker 3 Right.

43:36 Speaker 1 The way of Chabad is to explore everything and to try and find the highest which is there in everything, which of course is what makes Chabad so suspicious to the, to the black-and-white mind.

43:49 Speaker 3 Right.

43:49 Speaker 1 You know, the black-and-white mind likes to say this is kosher and that is treif, you know, which is like tzimtzum k'pshatah. Some things are holy and some things are not holy.

43:59 Speaker 3 Right.

43:59 Speaker 1 Chabad is the inyan of tzimtzum sh'lo k'pshatah.

44:03 Speaker 3 Right.

44:04 Speaker 1 So everything is holy. You've just got to find the holiness. But who has to find it? You know. So the Rebbe would do the baseball whatever it was with this guy who used to come, this baseball coach. And, um, uh, and the, and the Rebbe said, "No, uh, halavai, I didn't know it, but as m- as it happens, I know him." And so, so that's the, uh, you know, it's b'di'eved. So there's, there's living b'di'eved and living n'chatchilah.

44:35 Speaker 3 Sure. Sure.

44:36 Speaker 1 So for my eynikleh, I want n'chatchilah, and that's, that's their passion, you know? So, um, the ones who are interested in philosophy, okay.

44:45 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:46 Speaker 1 That's good. So we'll talk about philosophy together.

44:50 Speaker 3 Yeah. I-I love, I love the way you phrased it as n'chatchilah and b'di'eved because, you know, in many ways that's how I see some of my own choices in my life where, you know, I wish that I hadn't gone down a certain path or stuck to a previous path. But then for whatever reason, whether it was just curiosity or rebelliousness or boredom, whatever, you know, it's not relevant now to go through it, I, I took a different path, and then suddenly now I'm... Like now I just have to constantly deal with that. Like it's... I mean, really every time a person is, I guess, does an averah has that issue of, "Now I did that, I have to fix it." But here it's a more kind of, i-i-i-it's a more consistent, um, issue 'cause it, it's how we, it's how I think or how, you know, it's how, it's how one thinks. Um, yeah, so you know, i-in many ways, in many ways the question then gets framed of like do, do we believe... I mean, I think many people today feel like they live in a b'di'evedik reality. Like they, they feel that, they feel that, you know, they, they're, they're hanging on, they're trying to hold on, but there's so much, they're s- they're so surrounded by the world, they, they, they don't f- they cannot cloister themselves or they, they don't f- find themselves cloistered in a world of purity, of just Hasidus. They see so much going on around them, and

46:24 Speaker 3 they're, they're aware of it, that they feel, they feel, they feel that they have to, for Hasidus to hold a candle, it has to measure up with like, with, with the same kind of sophistication. And I know we said earlier that sophistication might not be as sophisticated as it seems. But I feel like many people feel that they are living b'di'evedik, like they don't have a choice.

46:47 Speaker 1 Okay. My, my advice, um, for what it's worth-

46:53 Speaker 3 Sure

46:54 Speaker 1 ... is avodas hatfilah.

46:56 Speaker 3 Okay.

46:56 Speaker 1 Because avodas hatfilah is the experiential side of Hasidus. And that's where it becomes really a part of the person's life with as much concrete reality as, as marriage. You get married to a woman, beautiful woman, you're married, and it's real, and you have children, and this is absolute reality. There's nothing more real than that.

47:27 Speaker 3 Right.

47:27 Speaker 1 And if a person is able to put their heart and their soul a little bit, and their mind, into avodas hatfilah, into a parvet hamit hanemes, a few words with the truth, that is the point of reality in a person's day, in a person's week. And, um, the world with all its supposeds, you know, its pretenses, its falschheits, and we are really now witnessing the falschheit of the world in a most incredible way, you know, where anyone worth their salt in the academic world is perplexed at why everyone is just going with the flow in such a shocking way.

48:26 Speaker 3 Right.

48:26 Speaker 1 And, uh, in such a negative flow, and really canceling out all the discoveries since the, you know, the Holo- Holocaust, the rights of man and stuff like that. And, um, uh, just, uh, it's, it's all being swept away in a most tragic way. And, um, uh, you see that what you thought was a building, in fact, it's just made of paper, cardboard, gets knocked down in the, in a wind.

49:00 Speaker 3 House of cards.

49:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

49:03 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know, it's interesting that I was, I was talking to somebody actually who today is no longer religious. He grew up in a Lubavitch family, and, and right now he's in the space of his life where he's left, um, at least for the, for, for, for the meantime. And one of the things we were talking about is that like in the past pe- people would leave, and they would claim or... And they would sometimes really believe to themselves that the world was what it was cooked up to be, like they have it figured out. Whereas today, a lot of people leave because something doesn't work for them here, but then they go there, and there's also nothing there. And so people are, are terribly isolated in that regard.

49:48 Speaker 1 Absolutely. I have a student, she wrote her, uh, um, a, a dissertation, um, a master's dissertation on, um, people who, um, go off the derech. And the, um, the sakai call of her dissertation is they are always exit- exiting. They never actually exit.

50:19 Speaker 3 Yeah.

50:20 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

50:21 Speaker 3 Yeah, there, there is something about that. So I, I think, I think, I think you've made a, a very, a very, uh, strong argument, compelling argument, um, to at least be critical. Sus- I don't know if the word... I don't know if I should say the, the word suspicious, but certainly critical of sophistication. Sophistication isn't as sophisticated as it, as it, as, as it is said to be. I think that's a very compelling argument, especially today, where the proof is in the pudding. But reversing it a little bit or turning the other direction, you know, the, the other option that you seem to have been speaking about, and I, I think, I think there's more to it, so I wanna see if we can flesh it out, is if, if not sophistication, then it seems like, okay, then sincerity is, is, is the, is, is the other option. Like you said, a parverter with kavana. And I feel that what some people, including myself-

51:17 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

51:17 Speaker 3 ... if I'm gonna be honest, would say about that is sincerity is, is all, is all nice and good, but it's hard to know... I mean, the same way that it's hard to know if sophistication is sophisticated, it's, it's hard to know if sincerity is sincere. And what I mean by that, not just a silly play on words, is that, like, to, to put it, to put it one way, something that seems or f- or, or i-i-it's, it... By definition, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to define. Like it's... W-what do you do to get to sincerity, right? To, to study a certain philosophy or to even to study Hasidism, you have to-

51:58 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

51:59 Speaker 3 ... you have to, you have to build up your understanding, build up your vocabulary. How do you build sincerity? How do you find your individuality in sincerity? Doesn't sincerity kind of, kind of just bring us all down to this lowest common denominator or... I shouldn't use that, but like just a, like a overly simplistic kind of way of life where you just kind of throw everything to the side and get simple.

52:37 Speaker 1 You see, um, sincerity is that somehow the, the ego, the garbage has been moved out of the way, and it's been dissolved, chopped up, something. Um, now even within, let's just take the academic world in its more positive side. Uh, one often sees that, um, a really eminent scholar is actually very humble, and it's the minor scholars who are full of themselves.

53:33 Speaker 3 Right.

53:34 Speaker 1 And the truly eminent scholars are, um... You know, I remember being in a class in, uh, Hebrew University. Um, uh, I was very young and, uh, there was an eminent, uh, scholar who was lecturing, and I asked a question, which was probably nonsense. But the attention he gave to that question, you know, I was... Later, I was struck, you know, by the humility of this scholar. Now let's... Now as Hasidim, we have to find that root in Hasidus, and to be able to, you know, to, to have and not have, to know and not know.

54:27 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

54:31 Speaker 1 You know, the... To realize what we don't know, and, and that idea, you know, that, that, that is a sort of a universal idea. The more you know, the more you realize how little you know. And that gives a person a different perspective on life. The whole problem with the moral relativism and things that we're seeing now is people who think they know. They know, so they can criticize Israel. They know this, they know that. But really, we don't know. And, uh, and, and, uh, or, or certainly we, we know in a completely different way. So, um, I think that these are spiritual qualities which we have to search for as mechunachim, as people, as Hasidim, as men, women. We have to look for a intimacy with Hashem and an intimacy with other people in a positive way, al pitur, that we are able to see the grandeur in another person. A very kind reviewer of my book, a rabbinic woman, noted that one of the things I found very inspiring, which I write in the book in the last chapter, is something that one of my year 10 students said, and I found that extremely inspiring, and I'm still inspired by it And I think we all have to be able to be inspired by a year 10 student or a seven-year-old child. And that gets us out of the thicket of what is real, what is not real. You know, let's look for reality where it's actually available. There are some things which

56:35 Speaker 1 are, you know, in a thick volume, uh, by some famous name, and there might be something there. And, uh, some people have the, uh, arduous task of traveling across the desert, you know, and then finding, ah, look, an oasis. But it's, um, it's not everyone's cup of tea, as, uh, Rab Messiah would put it. So...

57:04 Speaker 3 You're saying we've gotten carried away with ourselves, like, there... That, that we need to find some special idea somewhere else when sometimes it's right here all along.

57:13 Speaker 1 That's right. The famous Breslov story of the treasure under the bridge.

57:18 Speaker 3 Right.

57:19 Speaker 1 Right? The guy had a dream of a treasure under the bridge, and he goes all the way to Leipzig to the bridge, and he wants to dig up the treasure, and he meets another man. The other man says, "What? You had a dream about a treasure under this bridge? You're crazy. I had a dream that there's a man in a certain village," and he names his village, "and under the fourth floor in the kitchen, there's a treasure. I'm not gonna go all the way there to find the treasure." He goes right back, and he finds the treasure at home. So for Reb Nachman, that meant the treasure's at home, but you gotta go to the Rebbe in order to find it. And I think that that's, that's true all the way through. The treasure is at home, and we have the treasure in our amazing, amazing Torah. I mean, the Sefarim of Torah, Negle, Chassidis, Hakira, Mashkova, you know, all the different things. It's just absolutely incredible what there is. And, um, one of the things I would tell people when I was moving towards Lubavitch is that Lubavitch has a bigger bookcase. Because in Breslov, you can't study this, and you can't study that, and, uh, the, you know, e-each, um, uh... In Lubavitch, you got everything, every field of Torah endeavor of any kind whatsoever. And it's reich. It's reich. That reich thing, that's... And, uh, and it's, it's reich in the context of the modern world, and find a lotion to express

58:51 Speaker 1 that, okay. So, um, um, one might learn a certain lingo, um, in order to be able to express it. You know, very often campus shluchim, you know, so they're on a campus where a lot of people are studying philosophy, so they read a bit of the philosophy, you know, just to be able to say something. Actually, you're... Actually, you know.

59:18 Speaker 3 Right.

59:19 Speaker 1 I, I, I can remember, you know, for bringing in the yeshiva here, you know, and saying, "Look, people don't wanna know what you think about psychology. They wanna know what you think about elokut."

59:33 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I, I, I... I mean, point taken. I, I think it, it... I, I was, I was talking more of a cavalier for oneself. Um, and I think that has to do more with people who, who are not shluchim, who are, like, b'dieved already living a split life, which maybe itself is a problem, where, you know, one foot in, one foot out, one foot in the Beit Midrash, one foot out in the, in the larger world, and trying to be honest about the two worlds that they straddle. They try to find, they try to find... I mean, I could be honest about it here, you know, myself. Like, when, when I, when I read some Dostoevsky, what was that for? Was that to, um, find the vocabulary? No, but it was... I felt like I didn't... I mean, if I'm gonna just be ho- I'm thinking about it now. I felt like I didn't wanna be... I live in the world. I, I communicate with people in the world, but not so much, like, individuals that I'm spoiled from, just the world. You know, I, I read people's ideas, I read their essays, which maybe itself is a problem. And I d- like, there were certain things that people took for granted that you knew, and I didn't know them, and I was like, "I don't wanna be an idiot." Right? Um, and I, and I think that's very often where, where things start, where it's like I'm in the world already. Maybe

1:00:59 Speaker 3 that's b'dieved. I, I don't wanna live where, where I have this rich thinking that's only over there, and I have to escape there, you know, I have to escape to my shul to, to feel learned, and then here I feel like, like a, like an eighth-grader. Uh, you know, I, I think you've already argued why that might not be as convincing an argument as, as I thought it was. Um, which, which fair. Um, you know, it, it's good to, it's good to get a... I mean, I-I'm thinking-

1:01:31 Speaker 1 I mean, what, what, what I'm feeling is that, is that you and Chaverim should have farbrengens. And the farbrengens-

1:01:41 Speaker 3 What do you think I'm doing here? That's what I'm having right now.

1:01:44 Speaker 1 And the farbrengens are the classic way. It... And, and very profound. You know, the farbrengens are a very profound concept. They are the classic way to get to a deeper level of oneself and what one is thinking-

1:01:59 Speaker 3 Right

1:02:00 Speaker 1 ... and its meaning and what is reality. And, uh, you know, it's heightened whether with mashgiach or nigunim and, um, and, and it, it's an ultimate beautiful way of communication of Neshamos, the nefsh elokes communicating with another nefsh elokes.

1:02:22 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:22 Speaker 1 You know, and the oisios, the language that the nefsh behamis gives us can be transformed. And that's really what life is about, for us to take what looks like part of reality, scientific reality-

1:02:48 Speaker 3 Right

1:02:48 Speaker 1 ... logic, and see that those oisios, like there's a beautiful Maimon, the Mitler Rebbe talks about, uh, you know, Ir Elokeinu, the city of Hashem, and the oisios are like the bricks that makes the city.

1:03:07 Speaker 3 Sure, sure.

1:03:07 Speaker 1 And they're all the different combinations of the bricks. But in those combinations or in those bricks is suddenly revealed the Elokus, which is in them, and then you have the indwelling of the Shechinah in the Ir Elokeinu. And that's a day-to-day process.

1:03:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:26 Speaker 1 And, um, what I would recommend is some kind of creative pursuit, which you obviously have, you know, making videos and stuff like that. But, um, bechalal, you know, um, to have a society of people who, you know, are not, you know, official shluchim, but every person is a shliach. The Rebbe wrote this to a friend of mine here in London. I was walking behind him for, at Koshel Bracha, and, um, the Rebbe gave him a bottle of mashke.

1:04:03 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:04:04 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said to him, "This is for the shlichas."

1:04:07 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:04:09 Speaker 1 And this guy was a businessman. I mean, then, he's retired now. So, uh, he was a businessman. He, he had a business, uh, in the city. And, uh, he wrote in to the Rebbe the next morning, you know, "The Rebbe gave me a bottle of mashke for my shlichas, but, uh, which shlichas is it?" And the Rebbe wrote back, "Every single Jew," I can't remember the exact Lashon in Lashon Hakodesh, "Every single Jew is a shliach of HaKadosh Baruch Hu wherever he is." You know, and I, I see that as a, you know, very, very important concept, that every single person's a shliach. And, um, y- whatever world one is, uh, you know, in, half inhabiting, you know, there's the Beit Midrash, there's davening, there's, there's learning, uh, Chitas, Rambam, Chassidus, um, Shas, uh, Yut Hasichsin, whatever one is learning, you know, at the same time, one has a job, one is doing this, one is doing that, relaxing. Um, but to see oneself as a shliach.

1:05:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, to go to your original, the, to the first point you made there about Farbrengens, um, I mean, the, in, in, in my life, and I don't wanna turn this into, in, into just about a, a self-reflection here like this, but I think it's useful, um, to, to respond to, to your point. I think when I began to become less convinced in the potential of Farbrengens is certainly an inflection point of like, I have to look elsewhere. And so I think in a larger sense, I think, I think, I think I can see what you're saying, that in many ways, a lot of these feelings of needing to find something elsewhere comes from a sense of isolation in the first place, where... I mean, if, if... In general, it seems like what you're talking about is that for Chassidus to work on a proper level, not just on a cliché or, you know, just like dabbling kind of performative or, or ritualistic level, but in a proper, in a proper way, it has to have some kind of... It has to cycle back into reality, right? Because it seems to me what you're saying here is that that's where you find the profundity of Chassidus, is that it, it's not just an intellectual abstraction, but it, it, it then touches the parvere of a tzfilah and then so on and so forth. And I think what... The s- the sense of isolation is when that cycle has broken, and you, you no longer

1:07:00 Speaker 3 see your ideas reflected in, in the reality or the experience that you share, both with yourself, with the world around you, and with others. And you, you... That cycle is broken, and now you're just isolated, and you're roo- you're, you're left without roots. And, and suddenly you're like, "Where do I find something to hold on to?" And so, I mean, this isn't a question, I'm just accepting what you're saying, um, as a, as a form of diagnosis that, that you were making. Although you, you, you, you suggested it as a, as a, as a, as a, as a cure, but I think it's also a prog- it's a diag- it's an accurate diagnosis that, um, isolation is in many ways the, the cause of, of, the cause of many, uh, problems or complications. And I, and I don't know to... I, I... To be honest, I don't know really... Yeah, I understand that it would be wonderful to have Farbrengens, and I think it's, it's definitely, it definitely could be a good thing. But, you know, I mean, that, that, that, that... It seems to me to be a, a quite deep, uh, malaise right now, at least from the people that I know, at least for myself. I don't wanna project onto others, but there is, there is a sense of isolation. But I also feel that, at least, uh, again, in my experience, I know this is becoming a lot about me, but, uh, I, I mean, I don't wanna talk on behalf

1:08:24 Speaker 3 of others- As I talk to more and more people, and with the, with the direct focus of talking to them about this, which I guess is a form of farbrengen, right? 'Cause it's concentrated conversation. I do feel more and more hopeful and more and more optimistic i-in some way. Even though I'm talking about the problem, it feels like, you know, the problem, the problem shifts a little bit, or the problem is, is contextualized in a way that, that makes me more hopeful about it, if that makes more s- if that makes sense. 'Cause there's people to talk to. There's people to talk to. This isn't... I, I f- I don't feel isolated about this problem of isolation, and I think that's already a very good first step.

1:09:12 Speaker 1 Hmm. Interesting. Um, I think the ability to have a friend-

1:09:21 Speaker 3 Right

1:09:21 Speaker 1 ... is a crucial thing. And I can remember a Mendel Furus. We were sitting at a farbrengen very often, thank God, here in London. You know, we had farbrengens very often when he was here. And, um, someone mentioned the words yidid nefesh.

1:09:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:42 Speaker 1 And Mendel said, "Oh, yidid nefesh. Yidid nefesh." You know, that sense of friendship, that's something so powerful, so important. And it could be that, uh, you know, in the rough and tumble of life, you know, with people going through, you know, high school, yeshiva, whatever, you know, camp, all the different things, you know, do they retain these friendships? In my work in the Lubavitch Senior Girls School, you know, one of the things I tell the girls, like farbrengen with the class, you know, I say, "You are gonna be friends in thirty years' time, forty years' time. You'll be grandmothers. You'll be friends."

1:10:30 Speaker 3 Hopefully.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 Hopefully. But it's a shame. And we see it from our school. It is like-

1:10:35 Speaker 3 I see

1:10:35 Speaker 1 ... class, uh, WhatsApp groups, you know?

1:10:38 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:39 Speaker 1 Where ladies with grandchildren.

1:10:42 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:42 Speaker 1 You know? And this quality of friendship, you know, I mean, it needs a lot of things. It's not only what is, uh, you know, like, quote-unquote, "a farbrengen." You know, it means people caring about one another.

1:11:00 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:00 Speaker 1 And if people care about one another, that's one of the things where, you know, in the academic world, very often, thank God, not in the department where I teach, but very often in other places, is this tremendous hierarchy in looking to succeed, often at the expense of someone else that's-

1:11:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:28 Speaker 1 And, um, I remember a friend of ours, uh, she was gonna write an article attacking another person, another friend. But she waited till this other friend got tenure in the Hebrew University before writing that article, which was attacking her. 'Cause if she'd have written the article before she got tenure, she'd have never got tenure. So I thought of that as a very positive Hasidic approach of-

1:12:01 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:02 Speaker 1 ... you know, together with all the, you know, stabbing, as it were, that takes place in the academic world. I remember once in Chabad, uh, there was a series of letters backwards and forwards with someone attacking a certain sefer that had come out. I think it was a mafteach on something, some book of Hasidism. Then someone wrote an attack on the mafteach, and another person wrote another attack.

1:12:27 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:12:27 Speaker 1 And so some academic said, "Hey, you know, you... These Hasidim, they seem to attack each other just like professors."

1:12:36 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that. I mean, it's funny you mentioned that. I mean, w- I noticed that recently with the whole, with the whole, uh... I would hope that you... that, that you paid even less attention to it than I did. But there was, like, a whole to-do, like, a year or two back about the Erub in Crown Heights or-

1:12:56 Speaker 1 I see.

1:12:57 Speaker 3 And, and there were different letters, like, posted from either side, and it was so vicious, and it was, like, over-the-top vicious. Like, I kn- I knew for a fact that I actually knew some of the people involved. Like, I've met them before, and they're very normal, nice people. There's no way that they would have spoken to each other in person this way. Like, it's obvious to me. And I think that's, I think that's a fair limuzos on them. But, like, why are we talking this way to each other in public? Like, I, I, I feel like, you know, you know, the way you're describing it, like, the, the importance of friendship and the important... I mean, it's, it's been the... If I have to think, it's been the through line of the entire conversation. If you're going to go into philosophy, need, you need someone to be there with you to c- hold you in check. Maybe if you have someone to hold you in check in the first place, you won't go. Right? It's been the through line of the whole thing, and it's like... And it, it's so true. As I think about it, it's so true how so much of what I'm noticing, and this could just be my little vinkel of me and my broken friends, but I, I don't think so. There is a f- there is a malaise of, of isolation, and that's, that's the whole world, uh, is feeling it. The whole world is talking about it. And,

1:14:14 Speaker 3 and I do feel that, you know, to, to kind of attack each other in public, have you calculated the price of what this might, of, of what this might cost? Like, is it really worth it? I understand that you may have very formed opinions on the Erub in Crown Heights, and I'm not trying to take sides. Uh, it's not my... Not... I don't even live in Crown Heights. But, like, is it really worth this kind of vicious attack, like, for you to get your way? At what price?

1:14:43 Speaker 1 You're, you're 100% right there. But just going back to the sort of the other central thread of this conversation, philosophy, my favorite philosopher, whose name is Lev Shestov, he's not very well known.

1:15:00 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:15:01 Speaker 1 Lev Izakovitch Shvartsman was his proper name, and he was a white Russian who left Russia at the time of the revolution. Then he lived in Paris, and he published some fascinating books. So one of the things he wrote was, "The last word of philosophy is loneliness."

1:15:24 Speaker 3 Really?

1:15:24 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:15:25 Speaker 3 The la- the last word of philosophy?

1:15:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:27 Speaker 3 Not the first word?

1:15:27 Speaker 1 No, the last.

1:15:28 Speaker 3 So you're saying philosophy leads to loneliness?

1:15:30 Speaker 1 That's right. So-

1:15:35 Speaker 3 Yeah, uh-

1:15:35 Speaker 1 And the, and the upset are Hasidish of Chaverim Al Pi Torah.

1:15:40 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:41 Speaker 1 Very suitable for this time, Yut Tes Kislev, Dach Hasidus.

1:15:45 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:46 Speaker 1 Was that the Zayde Gavol, that it's you're together like a mishpacha.

1:15:52 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:52 Speaker 1 And certainly in a mishpacha you shouldn't shout at each other about the Eruv, but you know what? In mishpochas people shout about the most ridiculous things.

1:16:00 Speaker 3 No, no, look- Look, look, look, look, look. I, I am not here, I'm not-

1:16:04 Speaker 1 I think maybe the Eruv has some mysterious quality- ...to trigger off the most incredible, uh-

1:16:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. I, I'm not here, I'm not-

1:16:12 Speaker 1 I mean, there's an argument about the Eruv in Northwest London, the, you know, attempts to make an Eruv in this part of London.

1:16:20 Speaker 3 Well, the, the Eruv is a form of bringing people together. And what, what better way to divide the Jewish people than to talk about coming together? Right. Achdus neged mi.

1:16:29 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:16:29 Speaker 3 But, but, um, but yeah, I mean, like this, this, this idea, this idea of, of camaraderie, just to, just to flesh out a little bit more, um, you know, you, you brought the wonderful example earlier of family and, and of a spouse.

1:16:47 Speaker 1 See, let me give an example.

1:16:48 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:48 Speaker 1 Today, I meet a guy, he says, "Oh, so and so is having an operation today."

1:16:56 Speaker 3 Right.

1:16:57 Speaker 1 "Maybe you could call him up. It's, uh, you know, just today he'll be coming home from the operation."

1:17:04 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:04 Speaker 1 So, and I was so grateful to this guy who knew that he was having the operation and telling me so that I could call him up.

1:17:14 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:14 Speaker 1 You know, I, I think that's beautiful.

1:17:17 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:17:17 Speaker 1 I think that's really-

1:17:18 Speaker 3 No, 'cause I, I-

1:17:18 Speaker 1 You know, so I called up. You know, the, the, I got his answer phone, I left a message, uh, from me and my wife, you know, just calling to see how you are, you know?

1:17:27 Speaker 3 Right. I understand, I understand what you're talking about. I, I think you mentioned earlier the idea of a spouse, and, and the more I think about it, it's like what's, what makes a marriage beautiful is that there's a reality that they share that nobody else is privy to. In a way, that reality doesn't exist for anybody else. That's the whole point, right? And so they need each other, besides all the other reasons, they need each other to validate that reality, right? Which is probably the reason why it's so hard for someone when their spouse breaks that reality, because now my whole reality has shattered too. I needed you to, to validate and reinforce my, this shared reality. And I-- Now, based on what you've been s- talking about, I think that, that, that's a wonderful mashal for the need for Dach Hasidus too. If someone learns Hasidus, he's entering into a reality that he shares with others, and he needs the others to validate that reality. And if he doesn't have others to validate that reality, that reality begins to crumble, because is it even real if I can't share it with anybody? Like, I don't know, it, it, it's a w-- it's an interesting thought experiment. Can there be a Hasid, only one Hasid in the world? What do you think?

1:18:53 Speaker 1 Well, let's put it in slightly different terms. You're there with a group of friends, but your experiences are completely different to theirs, and you don't feel you can share your experiences with them.

1:19:09 Speaker 3 Right.

1:19:10 Speaker 1 Can you still have... Is this still a viable group of friends for you?

1:19:16 Speaker 3 Right.

1:19:16 Speaker 1 Right? Now, I think it can be.

1:19:19 Speaker 3 It can be.

1:19:20 Speaker 1 It can be. Because each person has their own private domain.

1:19:27 Speaker 3 Right.

1:19:29 Speaker 1 You know, let's imagine someone who, uh, the rabbi gave him a secret task, something like that, and he can't talk about it.

1:19:39 Speaker 3 Right.

1:19:39 Speaker 1 It's very, very important to him, but he can't talk about it.

1:19:42 Speaker 3 Right.

1:19:43 Speaker 1 And, um, whatever, you know, we, we can relate to people in those ways we can relate to them. You know, a teacher with pupils can be very close. Even though the teacher doesn't reveal this aspect, that aspect, you know, you-

1:20:02 Speaker 3 Right

1:20:02 Speaker 1 ...you're, you're guarded what you communicate, what you don't communicate, otherwise you'll just muddle up the student. So the, um, uh, I think it's the ability to be able to take other people for what they are.

1:20:18 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:18 Speaker 1 That's very important.

1:20:20 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:20 Speaker 1 To not be needy. The needy person wants the other person to drink in every aspect of me.

1:20:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:30 Speaker 1 But the facts of life are that not all aspects are to be revealed for whatever reason.

1:20:38 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:39 Speaker 1 So it's, um, so you find ways, different ways of communicating.

1:20:46 Speaker 3 Sure, sure. A podcast. No, 'cause like, to me, a- and, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, uh, uh, I'm not, I'm not asking you to validate, to, to, to val- to, uh, to validate this by you agreeing to be here, but the premise of the podcast Which, which I didn't-- uh, uh, which again, disclaimer, you did not, you did not, you did not agree to. That wasn't the c- you know, we didn't go through this before, so this is, this is on my achara. It's not on, not on, not on the doctors. But the premise of the podcast, Homesick for Lubavitch, is that over time, maybe it was Gimmel Tammuz, maybe it was everyone going on shlichus and dispersing around the world. Maybe it was, maybe it was even before that. Who even knows? To me, at least, and to a lot of people that I know, there's a feeling of dispersion, isolation. I'm in it by myself. Nobody understands me. I'm yearning for a Lubavitch that once was, and I'm homesick for it because I'm isolated. I'm not there. There was a there, and I'm not there right now. I- and, and that sense of nostalgia, which is very interconnected with isolation, 'cause if you weren't isolated, why would you be nostalgic, right? And that to me seems to be like a, a, a compelling or a, a, an apt description of the malaise that I've observed and also experienced. And there's no question in my mind that coming together, whether

1:22:22 Speaker 3 it's on a podcast or whether it's in person, and figuring out ways to relate to each other. And like you said, it doesn't mean we have to like somehow all become the same again. That may be, that may be too far gone for everybody to be living the same exact shared reality. If that was once true, maybe it's no longer... May- if it was once possible, maybe it no longer is. But you're suggesting that the mere coming together and talking and being there for another person and, and being open to that other person's need for communication and solidarity, that in itself is already a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a path on which we can mend or, or deal with this sense of nostalgia or this sense of isolation. Am I understanding you correctly?

1:23:16 Speaker 1 I think that sounds very beautiful. Um, to the extent that with the help of God-

1:23:23 Speaker 3 With the help of-

1:23:23 Speaker 1 It won't be nostalgia, and it won't be isolation.

1:23:26 Speaker 3 Are, are you-

1:23:27 Speaker 1 It'll be, it'll be reality.

1:23:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:29 Speaker 1 You see, the other side of nostalgia is the here and now-

1:23:33 Speaker 3 Right

1:23:33 Speaker 1 ...as a beautiful reality.

1:23:35 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:35 Speaker 1 And the other side of iso-isolation is Yud-Aleph.

1:23:41 Speaker 3 Right. Beautiful. Beautiful. Are, are you, are you ever homesick for Lubavitch?

1:23:49 Speaker 1 The, um... To me, it's a succession of changes which have to do with the whole transformation of the world. Like when I first saw the Rebbe 50 years ago, Baruch Hashem, people were frightened to be seen by the Rebbe. Like people would be waiting outside 717, suddenly the Rebbe would appear, everyone would hide.

1:24:24 Speaker 3 Right.

1:24:25 Speaker 1 Right? It was a particular way that the Rebbe had. You know, later on, everyone was happy to be standing there. The Rebbe's coming, you know, and the Rebbe would pass by and nod to me. You know, like different style.

1:24:39 Speaker 3 Right.

1:24:40 Speaker 1 And more and more different style. You know, Mashiach in every breath. Uh, uh, a sort of waves and waves of a global reality, you know? So I'm not nostalgic for the past. I'm looking forward to the future.

1:24:59 Speaker 3 So, so you, you, you, you, you have, you have managed to live in the here and now. You are, you are excited about the here and now is what you're saying.

1:25:07 Speaker 1 BeEzrat Hashem. Yeah. That's what it is.

1:25:10 Speaker 3 Oh. So, so wo- so wonderful to hear that. So wonderful to meet you. Uh, it, it's definitely what, what I feel right now sitting with you. Um, although we never met before. I, I do know your, your son quite well. But, um, you know, what... It, it's been such an uplifting conversation. I, I-

1:25:31 Speaker 1 Well, I wish you a lot of hatslacha, personally for you.

1:25:36 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:25:36 Speaker 1 I'm gonna think of you now as a new friend.

1:25:39 Speaker 3 Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. I'm honored.

1:25:42 Speaker 1 And-

1:25:43 Speaker 3 I'm, I'm deeply, deeply honored

1:25:44 Speaker 1 ...and also for the work you're doing, that you should help everyone live in the beauty of the here and now.

1:25:53 Speaker 3 Amen. Amen. Hashem should help. Thank you. Thank you again. Thank you. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn and David Bachar, and is used with their permission.