Ep. 14 // "Happy Place Lubavitch" w/ Leibel Gniwisch

00:00 Speaker 1 It's not to say that, that, that our whole avodah now is to be nostalgic for that and to, and to, to try to become that person again. I'm never gonna be that. I don't wa- I don't need to or want to be that.

00:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

00:11 Speaker 1 What I want to do is try my best to daven three times a day, and do chitas, and learn Torah, and try to find a, you know, join Yiddishkeit. And that's really where I f- where it is my happy place even though I have so many, you know, things pulling me away.

00:29 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2023. My name is Bentzi Hofstien, and I will be your host. Let's begin. This week's guest is Leibel Ganevitch, a good friend of mine who lives in the neighborhood over. Leibel's a lawyer, a Ivy League school graduate. Over the past year or so, we've had a number of conversations in which we've touched upon many of the ideas and questions that have been discussed on this podcast. This episode we recorded in the summer. Whoever's watching can see that we're sitting outdoors. And it's less of an interview and more of a conversation. He does tell some of his story why he became a lawyer and what drove him to become a lawyer, but it's more a conversation about Lubavitch identity, what it means, what questions are worth asking, uh, what, what avenues are worth pursuing. And, uh, for that reason, I felt that it was worthwhile to share this conversation on the podcast and, um, kind of help explain a little bit of the thinking behind the podcast. Hope you enjoy. Why don't, why don't we start... I mean, we're not gonna start from the other people that I was speaking to. Um, you know, like, they grew up, their parents baal teshuva. Like, there's, like, a whole dynamic there. I don't know if we wanna go there here. We could if you want. I mean, why don't you talk about growing up in Montreal? 'Cause what, what are we talking about

02:01 Speaker 2 here? We're talking about, um, Lubavitch identity. You know, as I speak to more people, it becomes very clear to me what, what's really a very basic self-evident kind of idea, that, you know, our identity individually is of course, like, very, very much formed, or a big part of its form is what came before us, right?

02:29 Speaker 1 For sure. Yeah.

02:29 Speaker 2 Right.

02:29 Speaker 1 No, 100%.

02:30 Speaker 2 Like, where we came from, you know. The whole kind of joke of, like, are you gesher or not, there is some truth to it. Like, like, where you're from, and, and, and where your, and, and what your background is definitely shapes who you are. It doesn't determine who you are, but it shapes who you are, and it kind of sets you off in a direction, and either you c- go with it completely or you spend the rest of your life trying to, like, you know-

02:53 Speaker 1 Build around it

02:53 Speaker 2 ... or, or, or push it in another direction.

02:56 Speaker 1 Right.

02:57 Speaker 2 So I think, I think it's always important, you know, for later on in the conversation, probably best to start off, you know, you know, not from I was born on this and this date, but-

03:05 Speaker 1 Right

03:06 Speaker 2 ... you know, growing up in Montreal, you know, Montreal is f- for those, for those who know, it's... I mean, for those who know, they know what Montreal is. For those who don't know, and I only know a little bit of it, it's like it's... There's this, at least for a time, there was, like, a quaintness to it-

03:23 Speaker 1 Sure

03:23 Speaker 2 ... in the Lubavitch community.

03:24 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

03:24 Speaker 2 It's almost like it's Crown, it's like Crown Heights but with, but a little bit, but a lot more kind of low-key and for a while a little bit more old-fashioned-

03:33 Speaker 1 Yeah

03:33 Speaker 2 ... and quaint. Yeah, so why don't you describe a little bit what it was like growing up there and, um-

03:39 Speaker 1 They say it's... Yeah, so it's, uh, it's, uh, held up as a quin- quintessential Chabadish shtetl. Um, we had, you know, as I was growing up, and, and it's for sure part of my psyche in some way and part, part of, you know, my identity today. I don't know if it's, if I can necessarily point to part- specific events that, uh, fa- that fashioned me, you know? It's like we had Like, we, we didn't really have shluchim. Like, the, the, the... We... Our school was in Dom... It's because it was such a big Anash community.

05:48 Speaker 2 Right.

05:48 Speaker 1 Our school didn't have that shluchim versus, uh, Anash dichotomy at all.

05:52 Speaker 2 Hmm, interesting.

05:52 Speaker 1 It really didn't exist. I mean, there was like one, maybe one or two families who... And also, like, the shluchim in, in, uh, Montreal are not like the, the, the, the polished shluchim like, you know, Moshe Brisky. They're, like, simple guys who, like, they also, they had, they came in with their green old fedora- Like they were, they, and their kids were the same. They were just very simple, hardworking s- sometimes people. Um, there was like one fancy Chabad house in Montreal, MTC, you know?

06:20 Speaker 2 Well, and that was-

06:21 Speaker 1 With titles and the news, and every, you know, they-

06:23 Speaker 2 And that was a, that's, that's, that's not, it hasn't been there forever. I remember when it, when it, I was in, I think I was in B- I think I was in Bais Medrash when it was, when it opened up.

06:31 Speaker 1 Well, the big one. I mean, it's, it's been a-

06:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:32 Speaker 1 I mean, I grew up-

06:33 Speaker 2 The, the big one

06:33 Speaker 1 ... my father davened there.

06:36 Speaker 2 Yeah, but my, my question is, you know, you're in yeshiva, and you're... So I mean, it's interesting what you're saying. You're growing up in a, in a, in a community. I mean, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm taking a massive leap here, but my guess would be that there's a more, from what you're saying, there's a more healthy kind of acceptance of the role of the Hasidish Baal Habos than, let's say, in Crown Heights, where at least when I was, when I was growing up, I didn't grow up in Crown Heights, but when I'd come to Crown Heights, and I had cousins in Crown Heights, there's always this kind of like, you know, I'm in Crown Heights only 'cause I have to be. Like the, you know, the, the joke that like the ultimate Crown Heights is, is like, "I don't really wanna live in Crown Heights."

07:19 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

07:19 Speaker 2 "Like, 'cause like, what am I even doing? I should be on shlichas."

07:21 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

07:22 Speaker 2 You're saying that in Montreal, there, there was a little bit more of like a healthy kind of, "Yeah, we're here, and we live here, and, and, you know, we're not shlichim, but, you know, we're Baal Baotim." My question I guess is, is like, you know, you're in yeshiva, especially I think at the time. Again, I, I'm, I'm guessing here. I'm just ba- basing it off, you know, my timeline and what I saw in yeshiva. You know, we're talking almost 20 years ago.

07:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:48 Speaker 2 Right? You're talking about a time where Lubavitchers being in business, like not just finding a job to make ends meet, but like being in business, like wanting to be in business and succeeding in business was a very rare thing.

08:03 Speaker 1 Right.

08:04 Speaker 2 It was very, very few people.

08:05 Speaker 1 Right.

08:06 Speaker 2 And that was, that was kind of by design. Like in yeshivas, they didn't talk about, they didn't talk about business as like, as like, as like a, as like-

08:15 Speaker 1 For sure

08:15 Speaker 2 ... as like an objective, as like the goal. So my question is like, you're growing up in yeshiva, and, and there's, and there's one, there's one image of Chabad identity, one narrative being kind of presented to you, or maybe, uh, more than one, but there is, you know, the narrative being put, put forth by yeshiva that like, you know, grow up, and you be this, you be that. And here you see your grandfather who checks all the boxes Hasidish wise, and Frum wise, and Jewish wise, but he's living a life outside of that, you know, narrative.

08:51 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't know-

08:51 Speaker 2 Do you feel that way?

08:52 Speaker 1 I don't know if we necessarily got any messages in one direction or another.

08:56 Speaker 2 No?

08:56 Speaker 1 No. I mean, it's very, obviously a very conservative school. We didn't have any, didn't have proper Limudei Kodesh. Um, they had, you know, they had a Limudei Kodesh program, but we didn't go, you know. It's one of those Negaitnesht kind of thing. And we didn't want to 'cause we had like certain-

09:16 Speaker 2 All right. So how do you square that? How do you square that with, you know-

09:19 Speaker 1 I mean, but business wasn't seen as an inherent contradiction. We learn, we, we go to school, we learn.

09:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:24 Speaker 1 You know, we make trouble. That was like a big thing. We made a lot of trouble.

09:27 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:28 Speaker 1 A lot of, you know.

09:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:29 Speaker 1 Played rec- Recess was a big deal. We used to fight a lot over the rule. We were like Oley Torahnecks, like in a way. Maybe a little bit more, uh, sophisticated. I mean, slightly more sophisticated.

09:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:39 Speaker 1 But like, you know, every day after school, we would go to the park. We'd play baseball. Like, it wasn't like we weren't, we weren't, we weren't necessarily getting any, any messages about like-

09:49 Speaker 2 So there was no point-

09:49 Speaker 1 In eighth grade, maybe Mesivta like-

09:51 Speaker 2 I'm not talk- I'm not talking about earlier than that.

09:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:52 Speaker 2 I'm talking about Mesivta.

09:53 Speaker 1 Okay. Mesivta. Okay, fine. So Mesivta.

09:56 Speaker 2 At, at no point was there a place where like, they're talking about like the Shliach is like, you know, the Shliach-

10:01 Speaker 1 Oh, for sure. For sure. No, no, no.

10:02 Speaker 2 The Shliach is the hero.

10:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

10:03 Speaker 2 The Shliach is ultimate, and you're like, "Wait a second. I have someone, I have someone who I adore."

10:10 Speaker 1 Right.

10:11 Speaker 2 You know, who's a pretty good example, and I may very well maybe follow him in his business or follow him into business in general. Like how do you, how, how do you remember that?

10:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you, when I went to Mesivta, I, I kind of was one of the, the, one of the first people in my extended Ginevesh family that really took yeshiva extremely seriously and learned and, you know, took Avoda seriously, and my cousins will tell you that. Um-

10:44 Speaker 2 Where do you think that came from?

10:48 Speaker 1 I think it was, it was a number of just, I mean, serendipitous factors, Hashgacha Pratit. So for example, I mean, I al- I always had a, a, a good head and would try and like understand what was being taught in school. Uh, there was also, um, a, I think a pivotal, um, moment in my life was my father seeing that I had the, you know, these capabilities and setting me up with a Bachur in Zal. So then at, at that point, Montreal Zal was in the Cheder building, which was interesting. Um, and, uh, he set me up with Chevrusa, and I was in third grade, and we started to learn Gemara together, Gemara Tamid, I still remember. And, uh, this was an elder Bachur who took me seriously, and we would talk about all sorts of things. And I think that, I don't know, maybe sh- pushed me down a different path. And then there was Mishnas Baal Peh I took very seriously as a kid. There was the Chidon, I think was a big deal. Took it very seriously and, and, and, and did well. And, um, I think all of those things kind of s- put me down that path. I wasn't... Yeah, I mean, Shira Alf Mesivta was kind of finding myself, but by the time I got to Shir Bazan, I had the, again, the right Mashgim. And, uh, it just, I don't know, um, it resonated. It made me feel part of something, I think, um- It was what, you

12:16 Speaker 1 know, the Chevre were doing, and I didn't have any complexes about it, you know? And it... You, you can't be a Chassidishe Bachur unless you could sit and learn. Unless... I mean, you can, but it's more difficult.

12:26 Speaker 2 But the question here is not why your cousins didn't do it. The question is why you did do it.

12:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I think it had to do with a lot of those things, and, like, a big part of it was, was, was in Chicago at, at, at, at the time when it was becoming a very kind of the yeshiva that it, that it, that it was and it kind of is, you know? It's a very serious place where the Mashbim were very holy, and they-

12:48 Speaker 2 Yeah

12:48 Speaker 1 ... pushed the Bachurim in that direction. So, um, yeah.

12:54 Speaker 2 So was there, was there a point where-

12:56 Speaker 1 Oh, so, so, so to finish my thought, it was like, by the time I started to think about who I was, what my identity was, I always said that, that those are the Chassidishe, Chassidishe Balabatim or, or nice Balabatim, the gute Yidden, but that wasn't for me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, "I'm gonna learn Shluchas."

13:13 Speaker 2 So did-

13:13 Speaker 1 'Cause Shluchas is top of the highest, you know?

13:15 Speaker 2 You did think that.

13:16 Speaker 1 Of course, yeah.

13:17 Speaker 2 At, at what age?

13:18 Speaker 1 Probably 10th grade already. It's your base.

13:20 Speaker 2 And till what age?

13:22 Speaker 1 So till what age? So till what age? So you had, you had your pivotal year in 1770.

13:28 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:28 Speaker 1 I had my pivotal year on Shluchas. Shluchas was a complete disaster for me. Complete... I broke down as human, like, as a human being.

13:34 Speaker 2 Really?

13:35 Speaker 1 It was, it was horrible.

13:36 Speaker 2 Where do you go on Shluchas?

13:37 Speaker 1 So I went on Shluchas to Tzeria Shluchim.

13:39 Speaker 2 To us.

13:40 Speaker 1 To us.

13:40 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

13:41 Speaker 1 And it was the first year that I was really on my own.

13:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

13:46 Speaker 1 Um, and it wasn't... I'm saying it wasn't h- we didn't have... We... There was no on Halacha. There w- on top of the Shluchim.

13:53 Speaker 2 It's a very weird, it's a very weird setup.

13:55 Speaker 1 It's very weird.

13:55 Speaker 2 It's an extremely weird setup.

13:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. I remember-

13:57 Speaker 2 Extremely weird setup. You're an ex- you're an example to the Bachurim of how to be a Talmid, but there's no... So c- that's the idea. But there's no... But you have no rules the way they do, and there's also very few expectations like, like they have.

14:12 Speaker 1 I don't know if I would-

14:12 Speaker 2 It's like, it's like, it's like, say, it's like, what is this?

14:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:14 Speaker 2 What game are we playing? It turns out that you're essentially free babysitting to, to, to handle some, you know, troublemakers.

14:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:22 Speaker 2 And, and kind of help Dunhall.

14:23 Speaker 1 No, we had a good time, and I, I still, I mean, I still believed, I still do believe, but I, I, at the time, I still believed in everything. It was just, um, I struggled with, you know, with a lot of things, and I would wake up late. And, and the funniest thing was, like, the Bachurim had no idea. 'Cause, like, we had one... I had one Chavrusas with a Bachur for, for Girs... Say their Girsah. And I would show up every day at 4:30. I would go to sleep 6:00 in the morning every day.

14:47 Speaker 2 Ramish.

14:48 Speaker 1 And wake up at 4:30 in the afternoon every day.

14:49 Speaker 2 Ramish.

14:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's terrible.

14:52 Speaker 1 And, uh, I was, I was-

14:53 Speaker 2 I mean, uh, that, not even from, like, a ru- not even from a spiritual standpoint, just from like

14:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a disaster. I, I-

14:58 Speaker 2 Like a mental health standpoint

14:59 Speaker 1 But like I, I was still... In my mind, I was still like-

15:03 Speaker 2 You're in yeshiva

15:03 Speaker 1 ... I was still a Shliach. I was still a yeshiva. Like, I remember, like, I wasn't finding Sviyus Haratzon from being in yeshiva, so I would go down and hang out with all the, like, you know, Ascent, Ascent and... But I was still a Shli- like, I was still farbrengen with them over there, but it felt different, you know? The Ch- the, you know, the people, the, the, the, the Olim and the s- the people passing through and, you know. It was, it was, uh, it was interesting. I met a lot of interesting characters that year. Um, and I don't know if the other Shluchim necessarily had the same experience that I did. But, um, that was really what kind of... I remember the first time... Like, for me, the, the idea of not davening Shacharis was such an impossibility.

15:47 Speaker 2 Not davening Shacharis at all?

15:48 Speaker 1 Not davening, period. Like I, I would land at 6:00 AM after staying up all night, and I would be like, "I can't go to sleep without davening Shacharis," because I'm, I... I would put on my tallit at 6:00 AM, daven, and then go to sleep. Like, the, the musing of, like, m- missing Shacharis w- it was just like an impossibility, and I remember the first time that I, that I didn't daven the full Shacharis. I brushed tallit and tefillin and did like Yishtabach and Shemoneh Esreh, and it's like, I realized, like something broke. Like, you know, the, the, like you lose your innocence in a way. Like, I lost my innocence that year.

16:19 Speaker 2 Mm.

16:20 Speaker 1 And I remember I had a, a chaver who I, who I talked to a lot about these things, and he, he was, he was, he was a cynic. Was a very, very deep thinker. Um, I think one, one of the things we, we... And, and, and I still had this idealized vision of like what a, what a Yid was, what a Hasid was. That, that didn't change. Like I was, I wasn't... I was struggling. I, I wasn't fitting in to what I was supposed to be. And I remember him showing me a video of a Mashpia at a yeshiva in Tzfass smoking weed and from a bong that was made out of a Gatorade bottle that a b... And I was m- I was shocked. My... You know, that was a, it was a Mashpia doing weed, like what's going on over here? And like, he's like, "What are, what, what talk is the problem? Like, let's, let's think about this objectively." And I think he made me realize, and through that and many other conversations, that these id- these kind of these, these ideals that I've been, you know, taught all the time, like these cultural ideals I think more, more so than authentic ideals were, were, weren't real.

17:24 Speaker 2 Uh, okay. I, you know, there's a word for that in English. It's called nihilism. It's called nihilism.

17:32 Speaker 1 I don't think he was nihilistic necessarily, and I think he was trying to boil-

17:36 Speaker 2 Put the glass over here.

17:38 Speaker 1 Where?

17:39 Speaker 2 Over here.

17:40 Speaker 1 I think he was trying to boil Chassidus down to... He was at that point a Chassidishi, still a Chassidisher Bachur.

17:46 Speaker 2 I, I don't know what his motivations were.

17:48 Speaker 1 No, he was just trying to boil... He was trying to strip away a lot of the c-

17:52 Speaker 2 I mean-

17:52 Speaker 1 ... cultural Chabad aspects that infiltrated what we consider to be authentic.

17:58 Speaker 2 Well, I'm, I'm going, you know. I, I-

18:00 Speaker 1 Let's give an example. He basically was... It'd be like this. He would say... He once opened up a Yayim Beim, and it said something about how Avas, Avas Hashem and Yiras Hashem are the two pir- pillars. It's like, why aren't... W-why is it that Masitistus are, are screaming at the Bachurim wearing a hat and jacket in the street when- Open up a Yoyim Yom. Let's, let, let's use this as our manual for how to be a Hasid, and not some of the cultural trappings that may-

18:27 Speaker 2 Oh, oh, okay. Yeah

18:28 Speaker 1 ... That was the idea. It was like, it was like think deeply about your, your notions. Back up your notions with a source. Don't just, you know, you, you've kind of, you've, you've come to accept certain cultural norms as authentic and legitimate in and of themselves-

18:42 Speaker 2 Mm

18:43 Speaker 1 ... detached from anything real. Try and, try and, uh, think about those prejudices in a way.

18:51 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Yeah, that, yeah, that's called growing up.

18:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:54 Speaker 2 That's called growing up.

18:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

18:55 Speaker 2 I mean, your, your, your, your first example was about a Mashpia with a bong, and like, and like kind of like-

18:59 Speaker 1 That was the, that was the, that was the-

19:01 Speaker 2 Like everyone's full of crap. Like that, you know, that, that-

19:03 Speaker 1 No, I don't think that's the, that's the point

19:04 Speaker 2 ... Oh, so that's how I understood it.

19:06 Speaker 1 No. The Mashpia was a serious guy, and he never stopped being a serious guy, but, but maybe taking a hit with some of his Bakrem who... Uh, y- I'm not justifying it. I'm not saying everyone should do weed. That's not the point. But maybe for that person at that time, it was okay, and-

19:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

19:22 Speaker 1 ... just because in my mind a Mashpia doesn't-

19:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a challenge, it's a challenge of growing up. You know, um, it's-

19:31 Speaker 1 So I grew up that year.

19:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:32 Speaker 1 Let's say, let's say that year.

19:33 Speaker 2 Like it's, it's, it's, it's an ongoing challenge of growing up because, you know, as you grow up and you learn more and you see more and you experience more, you ha- you're for... You know, the truths that, that were relevant to you and animated you when you were younger don't just hang along by themselves. Like you, you, you should be growing out of them. So does that mean you leave everything behind? No. That means that you have to constantly revisit those things and kind of pour water into them-

20:10 Speaker 1 Sure

20:10 Speaker 2 ... and like, and like, and, and, and nurture them and help them grow and then, you know, and, and just, and just cultivate them. It's like, it's like a plant, you know. If you don't water it and you don't tend to it, and you don't come back to it season after season, eventually it's gonna fall off. Like it doesn't just stay there by itself. And you know, so as you grow up, the things that you took for granted when you were younger, you have to constantly come back to them, and it's not always so simple because like you don't always have... "Wait a second. It, it doesn't make sense to me anymore, and I don't have either the energy or the, or, or the... I don't have the tools with which to like make this be relevant to me anymore, or I don't care to." You know? It's, it's, it's... You know, I think for that reason a lot of times there is a tendency to not grow up, and like you'll have, you'll have like, you'll have this weird kind of split where you'll be talking to somebody, and on everything outside of like Rochnius, outside of Yiddishkeit, they talk to you like their age, 35 years old. You know, they, they, they probably have a family, you know, they have, they have, you know, they have a business or there's, you know, financial concerns. You know, there's a life going on that, that's different from what it was 10 years ago. And, and

21:31 Speaker 2 you can have a conversation with them, and you feel like you're having a conversation with a 35-year-old. Then it comes to And all of a sudden it's, it sounds like this person was in a coma for the past 10 years.

21:40 Speaker 1 Right.

21:40 Speaker 2 It's like right back to the 20-year-old dialogue, and it's like wait a second. H- how, how are you living at 35 with, with, with a language that, that worked 15 years ago? Like h- how have you not up-

21:55 Speaker 1 There has to be an-

21:55 Speaker 2 How have you not up-

21:55 Speaker 1 There has to be an Ayin BaEmza. I think in order-

21:57 Speaker 2 How have you not updated your software?

21:58 Speaker 1 I mean-

21:58 Speaker 2 And peop- because it's very hard. It's very scary because for you... Like you said, the Ayin BaEmz is extremely scary.

22:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:04 Speaker 2 It's much, much more comfortable to just say, "You know what? This stuff I'm gonna just kind of... This is what it is. This is... I'm gonna just kinda live with it in this kind of stasis, kind of protect it and, you know, like freeze it." Cryo- cryogenic Yiddishkeit, right?

22:21 Speaker 1 Cryogenic Yiddishkeit. I, I think, I mean, we, we've talked this many times. I think that's, that, that, that, that, that's happening on a communal level, and I think it, it needs to change, as we've spoken.

22:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:32 Speaker 1 But, but, um, but yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's as it says, right? Ev- every, every growth happens. You have the seed and then it has to disintegrate before growth happens. There has to be a, a period of trauma or some... Like I, I was really... Yeah, it was, it was a tough year. One of the things I, I recognized was that I had a very hard time seeing a project through to the end.

22:53 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

22:54 Speaker 1 I would, uh, become over- very overwhelmed by a series of tasks that had to be tackled one after another to complete a project, and I think at that point I realized I can't... Like I can't be, I can't be in this open environment with no structure. Like I don't succeed in those environments. I need to-

23:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

23:10 Speaker 1 ... be in a structured environment. I can't... Those were, that, that planted for me the seeds of like I can't go on Shlichus because I can't run, run a Beis Midrash.

23:18 Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

23:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:19 Speaker 2 Interesting. So-

23:20 Speaker 1 Like, like if it meant sitting and farbrengen with like a college student... Like I also spent a few summers at the National Jewish Retreat.

23:27 Speaker 2 Okay.

23:28 Speaker 1 I was, I was a bachur and I was sitting with like a bunch of college students and farbrengen.

23:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

23:32 Speaker 1 It was, it was interesting. A lot, a lot of the campus people were, were a wary I think, at least if not initially, then eventually. But like-

23:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean that-

23:41 Speaker 1 It wasn't-

23:41 Speaker 2 That meshuga in general of a bachur farbrengen with people and like telling them his Hashkafos in life is just, it's just such a sight.

23:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:51 Speaker 2 You know? It's like-

23:52 Speaker 1 But it's, it's nice. I... It was good. It was good. It was a good time. I... Yeah.

23:57 Speaker 2 I mean, that, that, that naivete is, is just so beautiful and so precious.

24:02 Speaker 1 I could read you emails, my friend. I could read you... I have receipts. I could read you emails. I was actually talking to a friend of mine recently, and we were talking about this, and I was sharing with him some of the correspondence that I had with some of those students, and they're, they're very, they're beautiful and c- and, and, and I would never write anything remotely like that now.

24:22 Speaker 2 It was like, well, where do, where do-

24:23 Speaker 1 There is something beautiful and tragic about-

24:25 Speaker 2 Well, we just told... Yeah

24:25 Speaker 1 ... uh, those emails.

24:28 Speaker 2 I, I mean, to me the word is more pathetic than tragic .

24:33 Speaker 1 I don't know pathetic. I mean, they were, they were authentic to who I was then.

24:35 Speaker 2 Uh.

24:35 Speaker 1 There's nothing pathetic about authenticity I don't think, unless you're a cynic.

24:39 Speaker 2 Oh. So I guess I'm a... No, it's pathetic that... Okay. Yeah, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fight on this one.

24:45 Speaker 1 We were both kids, right? It's not like I was talking to like a professor and like telling him-

24:48 Speaker 2 No, but it's just like, it's just like, it's like, it's like where, where do we get this kind of, this-

24:56 Speaker 1 Confidence

24:56 Speaker 2 ... this-

24:57 Speaker 1 Confidence

24:57 Speaker 2 ... uh, cockiness? It's like, you know, like, like, yeah, cockiness is probably a better w- There, there is probably a better word but, like, you know, like you, you speak to a student who's studying math and getting a master's in math, and like you'll start telling him about like some letter you read from the Rabbi that like Chabad.org, and it's like about Feynman's theorem or, or, or what's it, Royman's theorem, and like, "Yeah, right." It's like, "What are you, what are you talking about?" "What are you talking about?" I mean, listen. You, you read three lines about something that you don't understand, so what's your argument? That the rabbi knew math? Okay, fine. No, no, I agree with you. I, I'm not talking about talking to these people- No, but and I, I- ... about their area of expertise ... and I feel, I feel the rella- okay, let's make fun of 20-year-olds. Okay, we, we all do ridiculous things at that age. Like to, to, to, to, to, to, to poke fun at 20-year-olds, like naivete is, is a silly sport. I like, you know. I see a 20-year-old talking that way, it doesn't bother me. Right. If I give him the gan- mitnagged of hearts, like, "Have fun, brother." Like, "Enjoy it while it lasts, man." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go for it. But I do feel that that kind of cockiness, at least a collective cockiness, like we, we have all the answers. Right. They ha- they have the questions, we have the

26:13 Speaker 2 answers. Right. That sets us up for, for failure down the road because- Yeah ... we don't have the answers. Yeah. And we don't even have the questions. The fact we don't have the answers, M'mela, we're human beings, of course, we don't have all the answers. But we don't even have the questions. In other words, we don't even have the tools with which to look for answers. Yeah. And it's, it's almost kind of tying back to Yeshivat Shlichas. So you say, well, Shlichas was your mashbir, it was like, it was like, it was like the, the moment of crisis when everything fell apart. Was there ever any effort beforehand in the yeshivas to prepare you for that moment? 'Cause it would come, I... It would come at some point. It would come either on Shlichas, it would come 770, it would come after you get married. It would, it, it comes. It comes. That moment will come. You will not live forever in innocence. And what do we do to prepare for that? And I, and I feel like the really- Actually, I mean, I feel like- Yeah ... the mashbim are, are still there, though. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're still at the, at this heightened state of idealism, and they're talking to the bakr. They, they don't, they don't even necessarily know about, you know, about the, the other side of it, in a way. I mean, you know, you never wanna generalize with mashbim. Yeah. But I, I did... I had

27:34 Speaker 2 a very interesting encounter once where I met my mashbir from yeshivat back from Monsey. I was in Monsey for Shabbos, uh, about a couple years ago, and punkti was davening in the shul that I was davening. I hadn't seen him for years. I remembered him from yeshiva, very chassidish. He, he was, he was actually like the only mashbir who like took the whole idea of kabbalah like really seriously, like showed up every day on time, was at every single sod there, prepared his shiurim diligently, was always on time, didn't forbring to random hours of night. Like had a, had a, had a life, in other words. And was very, you know... He was a little bit loony in his like meshich stuff, but- Hmm ... whatever. He w- he was a solid guy, looking back. Yeah. Like... Anyway, I meet him in shul. He tells, he tells me he's no longer a mashbir, he's in business. Interesting. So, apparently something was going on in yeshiva. Like he, he was kind of vague about it. I don't know what it... I don't know what's transpired, so I, I can't speak to what happened there. But I said, "You know, it's interesting. It's an opportunity to ask an interesting question, or a q-question that interests me, which is if you could go back in time and tell your mashbir self something that you've learned now that you're in business, what to tell bakr, what would you tell them?" And he says, "You know what? It's a good

28:52 Speaker 2 question. I think if I would go back to myself then, I would say you can't demand anything from bakr because you have no idea what, what they're up against." "You can't tell them, you can't tell them about life outside of yeshiva because life outside of yeshiva, like I'm struggling with it. Like what could I tell them? Like what, what right do I have to talk about it?" Interesting. And I was like, "Wow." Like the disconnect. And of course, it's just one anecdote. Yeah. It's one guy. But like we all know, we, we all know the mashbir that we went to yeshiva with, and this kind of reality is true. None of them have ever been outside of yeshiva and come back. You mentioned Semakhim earlier. I think one of the things that made Semakhim such a unique mashbir was he, he was intimately involved with running the yeshiva, and that included the finances of the yeshiva, I think. Like he was intimately involved with real life. Um, and yeah. And he, not to mention that he was also intimately involved with the whole upheaval of that time of escaping Russia and, and World War II and all of that, the orphans. It was just terrible time, like... No, I wanna, I wanna just caveat that slightly and, and, and, and just to show the flip side is I think there's something quite beautiful about kind of receiving from those people. You don't see them often. They're kind of like gurus or people who seclude themselves

30:10 Speaker 2 and, and obtain, you know, attain a certain level of holiness and purity. And I don't know what happens in their houses behind closed doors, and I'm not gonna make any judgments, but at least at the time and till today, they do seem more transcendent, and it's, it's nice. Everyone around us is, seems to be more tainted than some of those mashbim, and I think it's, it's cool that, that we had those people in our lives when, when, when, when we did. And in a way, fine, they didn't prepare us for that breaking point, but Baruch Hashem, I think we survived it and, uh, we're, we've, we've weathered the storm. And I don't know if everyone does successfully, but hopefully they do. I don't know. Look, I, I don't wanna go down the route here of like fixing problems, you know- Yeah, yeah ... fixing world problems, like what I think should happen, what shouldn't happen. I think the more, you know, pertinent question to me or the more pertinent debate here, difference of opinion, I'm not sure that we're debating, is- Yeah, I, I think you, you, you, we've, we've discussed this before. You know, you feel the fact that there's a idealized version, you know, whether it's your, your time in your youth or these kind of idealized people that, that you remember. You know, that it's not only better than nothing 'cause that's, that's better than nothing isn't much at all. But, you know, that's, that's in a way the best thing that

31:31 Speaker 2 we, that, that, that we could hope for, and, like, let the chips fall where they may. People are gonna fall apart. Life is gonna fall apart. One way or another, it's gonna fall apart. Yeah. At least there's a moment of purity that you can hold onto. Yeah. And, and, and to, and to steel, to steel man your argument, you know, I, I think, I think there is something to that. I think there is... I mean, I think, I think I just kind of made the argument where it's like every- everything... Th- there's no preparing for everything. Yeah. There's no preparing for every outcome. There's no ensuring that, like, here is the way with which you're going to survive through all the possible eventualities of life. Not gonna happen. So let's, let's, let's strive for the ideal. Let's give it all we got. Let's, let's have this moment of, of, of, of pure something, and, you know, have that pachasemen. You know what I mean? Like, like the story of Hanukkah, like, like everything will go to, everything will go to smithereens. The Yavan are gonna come. They're going to come. They're gonna Hellenize you. Yeah. You know, they, they're gonna ruin you. But come... Like that, that, that- But, but you... But, but- For the Shevet Ben Yoheved friend ... underneath- Asher Temchatzimim. Right. It's the best. I mean- Underneath, underneath, underneath a crack somewhere where you- You go- Where you didn't even know- You go to a place where you go and- 'Cause you

32:46 Speaker 2 couldn't defile it. There you go You go and you hear like a, uh, Oh, yeah. Or, uh, Cl- Cl- That's Argentina. You'll love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. My, my hero's the one that brought it there. Yeah. No, it's, uh- Z- Zumel Silver brought it there. Like, it was his thing, and then like Asher got into it. Yeah. Okay, if I bring in. Yeah. It became his lullaby. Yeah. Yeah, it, it was the thing. Yeah. And, um, the Klimovitch Nigun. The, the, the... Some people call it the Alviene Malkinen Nigun. Yeah. So, so, so I hear what, I hear what you're saying. It's a pachasemen. It's like, it's like, like there ha- you, you kind of, yeah. But, but, but again, that's, and this is also part of our conversation is like, it's not to say that, that, that our whole avoida now is to be nostalgic for that and to, and to just try to become that person again. That's not what I'm advocating for. I'm ne- I'm never gonna be that. I don't wa- I don't need to or want to be that. Mm-hmm. What I wanted to do is try my best to daven three times a day, and do chitas, and learn Torah, and try to find, you know, join Yiddish kite. And that's really where I f- where it is my happy place, even though I have so many, you know, things pulling me away in the form of technology and all the garbage

33:52 Speaker 2 that is out there in the world. But, like, but, but the, the person I am today is because of that, you know, deep, like, authenticity that I, I feel like I experienced when I, in my youth, whether it was from my grandfather or from my Mashpiyim Yeshiva, who I still res- you know, respect and admire till today. And yeah, there's many things they did wrong. I mean, Chicago wasn't good for ev- and for the people Chicago was good for, it was great for. The people of Chicago it wasn't good for, it was disastrous for. So it's not like a, it's not necessarily, I'm not idealizing existence. Yeah, we're not, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. What I'm saying for me personally, I think it was, it was... I, I'm happy that I, I'm very happy that I went through that experience. Very happy. I'm, I'm, I mean- I remember you me- you may saying that you're, you're not necessarily happy that you went through that experience. Uh, I said I'm not, I'm not happy. I mean, no, I, I, it's not... I, I don't... I mean, look, at the end of the day, it probably depends on the day, you know what I mean? Like Yeah, by the way. You know. By the way. Things are, thi- you know. Moments are, you know, t- there, there are mixed feelings. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and, and depending on, on- I'm, I'm saying by the way 'cause it happens to me all the time.

34:57 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like one day I'll, I'll, I'll be very passionate about a certain cause, and then the next day I'll be- Yeah. It, it is. I don't know what I said when, and I, I'm not- Yeah, yeah ... I'm not uber consistent about my like, about my, my, my, my self kind of self figured out, figuring out-ness. Like, whatever. It is what it is. Um, but no, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't look back with regret, and I don't look ba- And I, and I look... There, there is, there is fondness, but like we were talking earlier about like sa- you know, Satan negunim, and it pulls you back, and the pachasemen and whatever, and like, you know. If, if that's what, if, if that's how we're going to refer to, like, there's that thing in that crevice that you're like, "Oh, oops, I, I didn't defile that yet. It's still there. It's still pure." Like, it's still innocent. Like, and let- let's keep it there. Um, like I don't think that's a bad thing, but I do think that there's a... I, I'm not, I'm not convinced that this is, that this is the best way. I'm not convinced that this is the best way, but again, I don't wanna go here to like what, how I think yeshivas should run. But I think the relevant, the relevant, the relevant conversation would be like, is, is, is, is, is that, is- I think, I think- Is that what we're really- I

36:13 Speaker 2 think it's the way it should run, and then what needs to change is not the yeshivas but, but our communities need to change, I think. I think our post-yeshiva communities need to change. We need to, we need maybe set up that- But I don't think that... But I don't... You see, that's, that's exactly where I di- disagree with, with this premise because when you set up yeshivas to be this idealized version of innocence... You know, I, I, I, I've, I've, I've been reading a little bit of Dostoevsky recently, so I've been listening to, to some like, you know, podcasts about him and, and his, and his philosophy, and there's this very interesting take that somebody had, um, where according to Dostoevsky, idealism is cynicism, just more sneaky. What does he mean by that? What he means by that is that, you know, when you, when you, when you ha- like for example, when you have an ideal of loving humanity, you know, I, I, you know, we have to love all of humanity. Like how could we love one person and not everybody? Yes, but those, but a person who has a kind of ide- idealistic love very often cannot stand the person sitting next to them. Mm-hmm. Right? In many ways because, because I need to have this perfect ideal love, it never m- and real life never measures up to the ideal love. There's some nudnik who's, who's annoying me- Mm ... and getting on my nerves, and I'm not feeling that idealistic

37:36 Speaker 2 love, so screw it. You know, forget it. Forget it. If I can't have the i- if I can't have the ideal, I'm not gonna have anything. Yeah. And so it's a cynicism but just more s- a more sneaky form of cynicism. For sure. I- And I feel, I feel that there's a, there's an issue with that too. When you, when you said yeshivas where it's just kind of this tzumel sticke thing, it's like, okay, that's beautiful, and, you know, you say like the kasher ten chutz min ha'em or the, or the bachur who, or you know, the person who's not frum anymore- Mm ... and 30 years later remembers a nigun or remembers a vort, and as the sayer. Beautiful stories. But as a rule, we're setting ourselves up for d- for disaster. Right. Because, you know, just to, to go back to the argument before where like everything's gonna fall apart anyway. There's going to be a mo- there's going to be a collapse. There's going to be a catastrophe at some point. You may as well, you might as well give it what you got when you have a chance. You could flip the argument and say, "Yeah, there is going to be a mashber. There is going to be a, a, a, a crisis. Things are going to fall apart. Are you going to have the tools with which to rebuild?" Right. And when we're focused entirely on idealism, and focused entirely on this kind of innocence of youth, no, we don't

38:52 Speaker 2 have the tools, we don't have the tools to rebuild. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I can only- So that, you see, that, that to me is the argument To, to- And, and, and, and, and, and, and the relevant part in this conversation would be that, you know, what is, what w- what is the kind of foundation of our identity? Is the foundation of our identity some kind of nostalgic memory of our youth, where like there's something that's kind of out of our reach, we're never going back to that. We can't go back to that. We're too jaded. There's too much water under the bridge, but we know it's there, or we think it's there, and we kind of hold on, uh, you know. If only, you know? Like- No, no. That's not even what I'm saying ... people come back to yeshiva, you know, if people come back to yeshiva and they're like, "Oh, I wish I could be back here." No. As if. Yeah, but- Nobody has ever meant that in the history of meaning anything. Of course. I'm not saying, I'm... I mean, I, I don't believe that people haven't meant that. But I- You mean you think that people do mean that? They, they, they want... No, they mean it in the sense that they wanna go back to that innocent pl- it's like- They don't wanna pay their bills ... it's like Mendel Schneerson- They don't wanna, they don't wanna pay their bills is what they're saying ... sitting by the

39:53 Speaker 2 fireplace, you know? That's a great song. They don't want- Sitting by the- If he's a bachur, that's different. I know, but like it still- When a married guy comes to yeshiva, when a married guy- ... it captures that feeling ... when a married guy comes to yeshiva and tells you that he wishes he's back in yeshiva, what he's telling you is, is that his mortgage is due, and he doesn't wanna deal with it. No, no, no, that's not even... Uh, maybe. Maybe. I'm less cynical than you. Again, I, I think people do genuinely wanna feel that feeling of like all-encompassing holiness, that bubble of yeshiva. But- How many people would actually trade in their life with their family and their kids and whatever's going on to, to g- to go back to a place where the mashgiach is telling you what to do? How many people? I think people. I think there are people. My question is why doesn't anybody do it? It's not like the yeshivas won't accept them. Because they can't. I mean, they have a wife and kids. They pashut can't do it. They're saying they want to but they can't. Maybe they want to bein yan, but they, yeah, there's nothing about their life that makes that possible. Uh-huh. Okay. Or, or, or, or they, they, or their, the- their taqah have all that water under the bridge, and they can't go back anymore. Ah, okay. But they'd love to like- See, that's what I meant ... fix their brain and

40:52 Speaker 2 go back to feeling that, that, and the innocence. Right. So I, I feel, I feel that it's i- you know, we're either going to have an identity where our, our kind of North Star or maybe even a better, a more accurate North Star or, or what was it? Our lighthouse, like the thing that, that we navigate around is going to be that, that moment in time. Right. Again, I'm trying to say that that's not what I'm advocating for. I'm not advocating that that become our lighthouse. I just, I'm, I'm ad- I'm saying that it is positive that that's part of our DNA. I think it's a healthy thing, and it's, it's a, it's a good thing that, that we have that as part of the bricks that create the building we have today, and I, I believe that we need to build something else with those bricks in there, right? I feel like without those bricks, then we'd be much more a- far, further adrift. But, but so, so, so, so let me tease this out because so long as... Okay, so, so you, what you're saying is let's keep, let's preserve this, this memory of our youth, and let's kind of use that to rebuild. Not u- n-not using that necessarily, but, but I'm just trying to say- Rebuild around it? Not even build around it. I'm just... All I'm saying, I'm not saying what we should do or ought to do. I'm not even making- How do you do it? With the question

42:14 Speaker 2 here is how do you do it? How do I do it? Um, I think that, that those... How do I do it? I, I, my, my avodah right now is to try and be a frum Yid and, and a Chassidishe Yid, and that probably looks very different now than it did then. Um, I think it's, it's a healthy lifestyle. It's a positive lifestyle. And, uh, that's, and, and it's what God wants, which is, you know, why I strive to do all those things. No, my question is, my question is how do you... So, so let, let, let, let, let, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's t- let's pause this detail for a second. Let's talk a little about when you decided to... You, you said something interesting earlier where you, you know, you realized that you couldn't operate in this kind of, um, freestyle environment. Yeah. Where you kind of have to figure it out by the seat of your pants. That wasn't for you. Yeah. And so that's when you realized yeshivas wasn't for you. Yeah. Is that when you decided to become a lawyer? I think it was- Born of conversations, I think the first step was I can't run a but I could work for another . But then I think what re- what really sealed the deal for me was, like, going to a like I s- didn't like the feeling of like, I don't know. It just didn't f- it just didn't feel, it just didn't feel like I'd, I'd

43:45 Speaker 2 be able to find a from this kind of work. I don't know. Um, and also like there's something unique about being a I think. And, and this is something... I'm not gonna get this exactly right, but there's a guy named David Whyte who wrote, who wrote a book called Crossing the Sea: Work as a, as a Pilgrimage or something. Mm-hmm. You ever read it? He's a Scottish poet. It's a fantastic book. But he writes about two different kinds of work. He talks about the work that you just kind of go in and do. You come in, you go home, and then there's the work where it becomes your whole life. Right. So if, if he gave an example of like being an artist. Mm-hmm. It's like people's perception of your work is very much... If an Amazon guy delivers this package wrong, and like the guy co- he gets a citation, it's like it's not gonna hurt him personally. But if like you're an artist and, and somebody criticizes your painting, it might, it, it hits you in a different way. Right. And I heard that to hear about . It's like is not just a job, it's, it's who you are, which I think is why a lot of kind of end up getting into scraps with other . It's very consuming, yeah. It's, it's, it's consuming- It's all-consuming ... but it's also like, it, it's your life's missi- mission. Yeah. It's not just a job. It's ultimate kind of consuming. And I felt

44:55 Speaker 2 like maybe I, I wouldn't necess- like working for another is not necessarily an easy thing to do or a pleasant thing to do. So that was... So that eventually, you know, fell off the table, and then there was like, I wanna do something. I don't wanna just like, you know, scrounge around until I find a job and like become an, you know, work at B&H or something, you know. See, see, so- I wanted to do something grand, I guess. Mm-hmm. Something like, something, uh, outside of like the s- small-minded kind of community, you know. I don't know. I don't... I, I'm not being articulate, but that, those were kind of the, the, some of the thoughts that were, that were floating around my brain. And, and then I took a look at my toolbox, what I, what I thought I'd be good at, what I thought I'd, I'd excel in, and law, you know, made sense. Law made sense. Yeah. 'Cause it's, it's, um... It was easy, first of all. You know, you can get your bachelor's degree from yeshiva and go straight to law school. And, um, it fit into the way I saw myself as an analytical person, someone who appreciates, uh- Mm-hmm ... breaking something down and understanding it at, at its finest point. So you just said you, you were looking to do something that was grand. Yeah. It's not like, it's not like being a lawyer is some novel concept. No. No. But, but I, I think what I'm understanding

46:24 Speaker 2 from you is you were looking to do something that you hadn't ever thought was within the kind of list of eventualities- Yeah ... of where your life was heading. Yeah. Like, you know, okay, I'm probably gonna... You know, I could go in the family business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I could, I could, I could go in shluchas. Yeah. I could go teach in yeshiva. Yeah. Lawyer? Well, well, who's gonna be a lawyer? Oh. Yeah. I'm gonna do that. Yeah. I'm gonna do the one thing that like nobody or I didn't even anticipate happening. Yeah. Yeah. That's, uh... Yeah. That's, that's, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. So that to me is, you know, the, uh, th- that's why I wanted to get back to your story because that to me is, you know, like I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having these conversations to better understand what Lubavitch identity is today. And what I'm learning is, you know, and I ha- I hate to say this 'cause this is such like, this is such a, uh, trap of words. But, you know, the identity, it's very hard to put your th- to, to put your finger on exactly where that identity begins and where it ends because it's ever-shifting, it's ever-changing. And I don't know if that's a way of making a mockery of an identity where it just becomes so fluid, to use the very loaded word, that, that it becomes ridiculous. Or is that just, is... Or is that just a

47:53 Speaker 2 moment of flux in history when identity just becomes more... You know, there, there's things are changing, and identity kind of just- Has to go along with it. Yeah, sure ... change, and like has to adapt, and has to be revisited. Like we discussed earlier, values have to be revisited. If, if identity today is exactly like it was 100 years ago, something is off. But I feel like that, I mean, that, that crisis is happening in the Chabad community today writ large because things were so clear before Gemilut Chasadim. And then after Gemilut Chasadim there was the sense that we need to preserve as much as we can the pre... Like, and, and- Oh, I don't agree with that, but that's a whole different discussion. You don't agree that, that, that, that, that's what we should do? Or you don't agree that- I don't, I don't agree with the whole... Uh, Gemilut Chasadim to me is not the line of demarcation for Chabad identity. Interesting. In my view. Interesting. It's, it's not... Uh, that's not where things... That's where it was a, an accelerant, and it was certainly a like, you know what they call in a story an inciting event. Like certainly things started spinning as a result of that, there's no question, but I don't believe that's when the crisis of identity happened. I believe the crisis of identity happened the second that Chabad landed in America. Second the Lubavitcher Rebbe's... Rebbe came to America and said, "We're going to set up shop here

49:07 Speaker 2 in the very country that 10 years ago we definitively were not going to set up shop in for the reasons that remain true, and if anything, more true today than they did then." Right. The crisis was set in motion. A- and- I mean, this is a historical question, but if you read, let's say, Liz Harris' book, um, I believe it's called "Good Days." That was about her... She was a, she's a professor of journalism at Columbia, and she stayed with a, a Chabad family. Hent- with... She, she calls them the Konigsbergs, but they were the Gansborg, Hesha Gansborg and, and Hensha Gansborg. Okay. Simon Jacobson features in the book also with a pseudonym. But, um, Lubavitch did seem then, like for example, like no one... Apparently there was no fry of pe- like no one fried out in this, in the chas. Yeah. Well, uh, yeah. But I'll tell you, I, I mean, first of- There were no Baali Teshuvah. First of all, it t- It was a very kind of closed system ... it turns out that there are more people that left than, than, than you know. No, I mean, in, in time it appeared. But, but, but yeah, but as a rule, as a rule... Look, I'm old enough. I'm 35 years old. I remember like watching like a, a car crash in slow motion where like it, it's that clear in my head where, like, you know, one guy fries out, another guy fries out. This guy drops out of yeshiva,

50:21 Speaker 2 this guy drops out of yeshiva. You know, like, oh, what's wrong with the family? Like, what did the parents do wrong? Right. It was like a, it was a massive What did the parents do wrong? Like, oh, your, your kid's friends with the wrong families. Mm. And then people start whispering, "It's happening everywhere. Oh, my goodness. I remember these things, like, circulating in the community these kind of lines. And then there was Chabad Light. Do you remember Chabad Light? And then there's a crisis, and Chabad... Chabad Light was later. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But this was like, this was like crisis. "Oh, my goodness, it's happening everywhere." Yeah. Like, what's going wrong? Yeah. So I remember s- to me, the issue was always underneath the surface, and it just started bubbling up. Yeah. Right? I mean, at the... But, uh, again, I don't wanna, uh... We could get lost now- Yeah ... in this ocean of, like, community identity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could, we could spend endless hours- Yeah ... just talking about it. But in your case, like, your story of, like, you know, you, you became a lawyer because that was... Like, you weren't, uh, from what it sounds, you, you were, you didn't become a lawyer to, to like, you know, to prove to your parents, like, "I don't need you," or like- No, definitely not ... or like, you know, you know, some people come from a background where, like, you know, "I'm gonna make money," and, you know, like, "I'm

51:29 Speaker 2 gonna, I'm gonna..." That, that wasn't- No. Right. Exactly. Which, which in a way is interesting to me, right? Like, you became a lawyer because you're like, "Okay, I'm a Lubavitcher. I'm a Lubavitcher bocher." Uh, were you still... You were still single at the time, right? I was single, yeah. You were single at the time. "I'm a Lubavitcher bocher. I always thought that I was gonna go on shlichus or something shlichus adjacent, something in that realm. That's not working out for me for a number of reasons. I, I don't think it fits me. I don't have the fire for it anymore. So what am I gonna do? I'm going to do something. I'm not just gonna kind of..." Or like that, like that famous poem, "I'm not gonna go off q- gently into that, into that- Yeah ... into that night." Uh, it said better. "But I'm not gonna go off gently into, into that, into that quiet night. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a ruckus. I'm gonna make a statement." What are you saying to me? Like, what are, what are you saying when you're doing that? You're saying, "Look, like, I am not going to just, like, give up, and, and, like, kind of wither and just, you know, just, like, kind of fall into the soup," to go back to that, to, to that, to that very morbid, uh, image. "I'm not gonna fall. Like, I'm going to push the boundary. Like, I'm gonna see how far I can push this. I'm gonna,

52:45 Speaker 2 I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna test, I'm gonna test the boundaries." And what I'm realizing, like, as I'm speaking to more people about what their, their Lubavitch identity means to them, I'm realizing, "Wait, wait a second. Like, what Lubavitch identity, like, where does it begin, where does it end?" Like, I'm defining it f- I'm defining it for me. And so, like, how can I even ask a question of what does it mean to be Lubavitch today when everybody's pushing at it in different directions? Right. You know? I think the question starts becoming, like, how flexible is this identity? How, how resilient is it that, that it can, like, withstand all this pushing in different directions? Like, people are... Everybody's kind of testing the limits. Mm-hmm. Like, you know. So I think, I think that'd be an interesting place to kind of, to, to, to continue for a little bit where, like, you know, you become... You, you, you're becoming, you're becoming a lawyer it sounds like is, is, is a, is almost like an idealistic kind of move. But not because so much you believe in law, but because you're like, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I could be a Lubavitch lawyer who still holds true to some kind of ideals?" Yeah. No, I mean, every- everything you're saying rings true about my own kind of inner struggle. Like, I never, I never considered, um, changing who I was or, or how I practice or how I behave as a result of that decision.

54:12 Speaker 2 And which is why till today I'm staying. Like, I, you know? I'm... You know? This is who I am. And I'm very, very much proud of my Lubavitch identity and, and my identity as a, as a, as a lawyer in a, in a way. Um, what was I gonna say? I mean, it, it, it also came out in Shidduchim, right? 'Cause I was, I was... I think I mentioned this to you at one, at one point where I was like, the kind of girl I was looking for was a Chabadisha girl who, who only wanted to date a guy that was going on shlichus. But he's not gonna go on shlichus. So, so, like, finding... So I was having a hard time at, in the beginning because the second someone found out about law school it was like, "Who is this gu- I don't wanna go out with a guy who wants to go to law school." Right. "That must mean X, Y, Z about him." Yeah, exactly. "That must mean X, Y, Z." But, like, but I don't wanna go with a girl that wants to go with a guy who's going to college, 'cause what does it say about her in a sense? Like, it's like the Groucho Marx, "I don't wanna be a member of any club that would have me as a member." Yeah. No, but Baruch Hashem, I found my wife, so. It all worked out in the end. It all worked out. The funniest thing was that at a

55:21 Speaker 2 certain point we were gonna keep it quiet, right? It was supposed to be hush-hushy. Yeah. Only on the third date we're supposed to tell the girl that, that I'm going to college because we were getting too many no's up front. Oh, you weren't in college yet. No, but I knew that I was going to law school. It was, like, kind of non-negotiable. It wasn't something I was... I would consider. That's what, that's what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. The funny thing was, like, I told my wife on my, on our third date, "By the way, I hope it's okay with you. I'm going to, I'm planning to go to law school." She's like, "I know." Like, we knew. It was fine f- you know, from the outset. It was funny how we thought we were gonna- Outsmart the shadchan. Yeah, exactly. No, no, the shadchan got you. Shadchan was smarter than you think. Yeah. The word was already... The cat was out of the bag. But anyways, not every- everything, everything, uh, all the rejections led to that. So thank God.

56:05 Speaker 2 Looking back now, after three years of, after three years of law school, and, and, and, um, after three years of law school and, and a year of practicing law, um, do you feel like your idealistic decision holds up? Like, is it, is it... Are you as excited about that, that move as you were then? So it's funny. I, i- in a way, yes, for sure, and then, you know, I, I, I'd like to think that I showed people that you can do both, and I think that's healthy. Um, I don't know that everyone can do both. Maybe they can, but, but, but I do have a lot of chaverim now that, that are in law school and are still, you know, dedicated to the cause. We talk. Um, that said, I think I'm coming to a place where I, I, I'm, I'm once again reaching another, um, pivot where I'm like, I s- I wanna be doing more. R- I wanna make more of a ruckus than I am now. I'm not making enou- I, I, I, I'm way too normal right now. I go to shul on Shabbos, and I see people. They're all working. We're all just having a chat. Right. Like, I need... I, I wanna make another ruckus. That, that's what I was gonna ask. That's... I, I felt like I needed to reframe the question. Do you, do you feel like you solved your problem? So y- a little bit. Right. Somewhat, but I'm not, uh- The problem's rearing its

57:33 Speaker 2 ugly head again. Yeah. It, yeah. Uh, the way I like to frame it is, like, I feel like there's more I could be giving to the world, and I... A- and, and, and it gets back to that initial issue, which is I'm so bad at seeing projects through to the end, so even if I have grand ideas or the things I wanna do, I can't. I, like, I almost, like, physically can't see these things through. Um, so that's where I am right now, where I'm like- Wait, so y- you want, you want, you wanna make more of a, you wanna make more of a splash? Is that, is that what it is? You're, you're impatient to kind of t- to make a splash, or is it that you feel- I wanna, I wanna push Chabad identity more. One of the ways that I wanna do that is, is some- showing again that, that the... I don't know what it is about me. I w- I wanna be able to demonstrate that two identities can exist together. Things that seem incongruous can fit. I don't know if I'm doing that as a service to people. I don't know if the, if, i- if that's what, what I'm motivated by- Uh-huh ... or it's my own self-actualization, but I feel very passionately a- about my Chabad identity, and then I'm trying to, like, kind of branch, branch a- that out into different ways. So, so why do you feel- Which I think this podcast is trying to

58:46 Speaker 2 do as well. Yeah. I think what you're trying to do is give voice to, to, yeah, kind of more br- broader visions of Chabad identity. Yeah. So my question is, like, uh, why, why do you feel that you're not content with, with your, "No, this, this is who I am. Like, I, y- I, I daven three times a day in shul. I'm a Baalabus." You know? Like, a little bit like my grandfather in that regard. Like, I had the model. Nothing, nothing revolutionary. It is what it is. Why, why do you feel that there's, that you're not content with that? Why, why... What, what do you ascribe that to? I think it's like, uh Like, I do feel like I have more. I have more inside of me- Uh-huh ... that I want, that is, is, uh, kind of calling to come out. Mm-hmm. So, now, 'cause I wanna clarify, 'cause it could sound like, like, you know, people like, "You know, I need to leave a mark on the world. Like, like, I, I'm gi- I have more to give to the world. Like, I..." In other words, "I wanna be more famous." No. Right. That's not what I'm motivated by. Right. Right. I'm saying, I'm saying that, that that's one way of understanding it. The way I'm understanding it is that almost like, you know, i- if all I do is basically show that I could be like my grandfather or be like some other guy, like, okay, what have I done? Like,

1:00:02 Speaker 2 what have I done? So, so, like... A- and I'm not trying to get into the weeds of, like, you know, any grandfather complex. I'm just saying, like, the... whether it's your grandfather or some other model of a, of a person who's, who's been a lawyer or, or done this already, it's like, "Wait, it's been done already." Like- Right ... you know. That, that's an, that's an interest- that's an interesting, you know, that's an interesting question. Like, like, are we all kind of... Is, is that a nor- is that a regular thing? I don't, I don't know if that you can ask if it's normal, but is it a regular thing? Is it a typical thing for people to feel that, like, to be, to feel not content with kind of just... Like, what kind of identity do we have as Lubavitchers if so many of us are, are looking to redefine that identity? Like, is that what identity is in general? Like, kind of like, like, like something that, that we hold up to beat? Like, like, like, like, like, like a punching bag? Like, like this is, this is here for everybody to take a swing at. Is that what identity is? Yeah. Or is that a particular Chabad thing or a particular Lubavitch thing today where we're all so unsure of what this identity is, and we're also like, "Wait a second. It... This can't be it. There's gotta be something more. There's gotta be something that, that I make my own, that

1:01:25 Speaker 2 so long as I feel that I'm just kind of following somebody else's rhythms, I'm just not... deep down I'm just not content. Like, I, I, I, I know- I, I- I know that there's something else to it ... I mean, you, y- What do you think? Your sample size, uh, your, y- your, your, you have an interesting sample size and, and you know. I mean, you're picking people who seem to be pushing the envelope in some way. I'm not talking about my podcast. I'm talking in general. I know, but, uh, the- You've never heard these conversations before? Of course, but there are so many people that are just regular. There are so many regular people that, like, to ask whether this is a Lubavitch trait, I don't think, I don't think that's being honest about the data. I'm saying that, yeah, there are definitely Lubavitchers who are pushing the envelope a- and that- that's point A. Point B, I mean, look out, look out, I mean, look outside in the world today. I mean, ev- identity is such a big deal Everybody's trying to figure... Gender is now, like, the big... It used to be race, now it's gender. Maybe it's still race in a way, but, like, people are so, are, are s- striving so hard to i- individualize themselves and to discover their identities, and it's creating a huge crisis. I, I don't even know if I'm necess- Right, and, and, and there may- I don't feel a crisis about my identity. You

1:02:27 Speaker 2 don't feel a crisis. I, I don't feel a crisis. I don't feel like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna be self ac- I'm not gonna be happy with myself and I'm very happy, Baruch Hashem. You know, I'm happy. I have a job. I'm busy. I have kids. I, I have a good time. I, you know, it's not what it is. I just- Life is good. Life's good, yeah. Exactly. Life's great. Yeah. Thank God. Thank- Yeah, no, honestly, no complaints. Thank you, Hashem. Thank you, Hashem. It's so funny. Okay, so I, I've... It's funny, you caught me at a, at an interesting point. I, I, uh, I, I, I listened- Thank you, Hashem always brings it out, man. Thank you. It always... I, I, I recently listened to, uh, a podcast that, that was paradigm shifting for me for about a week. It's starting to wear off already. But it was about this idea about personal prayer, and I started, like, doing some more personal prayers, and it's been interesting just talking to God in the car. But anyways, thank you, Hashem. I always end up my s- my, uh, speech, my little personal prayers with thank you, Hashem. And I was telling my wife, I was like, "Am I becoming one of those thank you, Hashem people?" You get a bumper sticker? Anyways, no, I h- I hope not. But anyway, um, yeah, it, it's not about I'm not having a crisis of identity. I just think I have more to give, and maybe

1:03:39 Speaker 2 in the hullabaloo of getting married, and having kids, and going to law school, and starting to work, that's been quieted. But now lately, it's starting to bubble up again, where it's like, I wanna do things and I can't, and, you know, let's... Yeah, but it's not more... You're not saying more to give like, "I wanna in service of the community, I wanna give. Like I want to, I wanna give more back." What you're saying is, "I have more to give in the direction of what does this identity mean?" Yeah. Right. And so- But I also think that, like, people who- I'm, I'm- ... people like us bring c- bring a lot of comfort to, to other people who are going through similar things, and I think that's part of it as well. It's like, what if I am someone who is artistic and Chabad, I'm a kid, and I don't think those two identities can meld? Those two idents can, don't, can exist. Or I'm a bucko who thinks that I wanna go to law school, but I don't have any models of Lubavitcher lawyers who are, you know, both Mm-hmm ... cherish the guys and, and also in law, and I think that what, what people like us can do is give people a measure of comfort. So by, by- I'm not, I'm not, I'm not ready to take on that responsibility. I don't know if I'm thinking... I, I, that, that is one thing that sits at the back of my mind is,

1:04:46 Speaker 2 like, I don't... Because I don't believe that those pieces are mutually exclusive, I think that being Lubavitcher is a very wide tent that it can include a lot of pieces that a lot of people don't think fit into the puzzle. Like, one of the things that, that, bringing it back to that conversation on the bus with the, with my friend about the weed and everything, is like, a lot of the limits we place on ourselves are cultural, are, um, kind of, are, are not real limits on, on where that identity can go. I, I also think Lubavitchers we're, we're all, we're very, we're free. I don't know what it is. I mean, more than other Haredi groups, it's like we're s- we have- Uh ... a certain freedom with our identity. I, I, uh, freedom, confusion, um- I don't know if it's con... I don't, I'm not confused. I'm, but look, uh, I'm not saying that confusion... Okay, okay, I guess if I, if I say confusion, it would mean that you're confused, or it, it would mean that identity is confused. I'm very much not confused. But, okay, so, so yeah, fair enough. I mean, I, I, you know, it's, it, it's too big of a, of, of, of a discussion to have right now. But like, you know, at what point does something becoming so big tent, and so tolerant, and so, so open-minded, you know the famous line, like- Then your brains fall out ... it's open-minded, your brains fall out. That's

1:06:03 Speaker 2 right. Like, your, your, your identity is so, is so open that your identity falls out. There's nothing left, like, like- That's, that's a, that's, that is a very fair question, I think. A- and, and so, and so, so that, th- you know, that's, that, that to me is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is a crux of the issue, which is, you know- I mean, what you're describing is the reason why more people don't s- don't necessarily bring other parts of their person into v- You know? People are afraid of that. People are afraid of stretching the identity too far. Maybe I'm a little bit less afraid. Maybe, again, going back, all these pieces of our conversation are tying together because maybe because of my experience in yeshiva, like, I do feel like I'm anchored in some way to... And let me know where you're hold- you know, where time, where time is holding. No, no, no, I'm looking at the volume. You're good. Okay. You go. You go. Um, no, I do- Just talk to the microphone ... I, I do feel anchored to, I mean, the rebbe is still the rebbe and, and, and, and he still kind of st- sets the standard. But, but, but, but, but yeah, so there's the rebbe, there's Hasidism, there's Halakha, like all those things are still there. Like, nobody's advocating, at least I'm not advocating for going outside of those things, but I'm talking about more maybe more of the cultural constraints. Like, can you be

1:07:19 Speaker 2 a Lubavitcher who reads Dosto- Dostoevsky? I think you can, absolutely. Um, and then that becomes part of the way you, you see the world, and, and, and again, as long as it's not, doesn't rub up against those hard lines. Maybe it's a, it's a, yeah. I mean, I don't, I mean, can I be a Lubavitcher who reads Dostoevsky? Look, I'm a Lubavitcher that's wearing a gray shirt now, right? Yeah. That doesn't mean that that gray shirt's part of my Lubavitch identity, or that I can make it part of my Lubavitch identity, right? That, that itself depends on how malleable is that identity, right? And how, and how, and how absorbing, how absorbent is that identity? Like, j- like I'm a Lubavitcher, comma, who reads Dostoevsky. Right. Right? Not necessarily everything I do can somehow be- Right. Not everything ... like, oh, that's part of my, that's part of me being a Lubavitcher, you know? Um- But, but I think, I think the problem becomes, that's what I meant earlier by confused. Maybe the w- maybe the better word than confused is more like porous. Like, the, the identity doesn't have hard borders anymore. We're kind of pushing it in places. We don't even know where... Like, where exactly does this space end? And we kind of think that it include-- it could include this, it could include that, it could include all these things, and at, at some point we're like, "Where are we?" Like, where, where, where even are we? Like, like- Yeah ...

1:08:44 Speaker 2 like, how, how, how far can we push this out? Like, uh, are we even still pushing it out? Maybe we've just left it behind us at some point. You know, maybe at some point what I'm doing and who I am has nothing to do with being a Lubavitcher, just to be with me, who, who, who I am, and I don't know, maybe I've lost, maybe I've, you know, maybe I've lost the plot. Yeah. In that, in the Lubavitch regard, you know. But, you know, that's, that's- I think it comes down to what- ... the problem when identity is, is... it's a problem when identity starts becoming... Uh, that's why I do, I do have sympathy for, for kind of the hardliners who say, "Look- Yeah ... like, the world is, the world is confusing." Yeah. There's way too much, you know, uh, way too much gray and, and- Yeah ... ambivalence and- Yeah ... ambi- sorry, ambiguity. Like s- you know, no man's land. We're gonna keep it really, really, really tight- Yeah ... and hardcore black and white. Like, you know, a little bit of clarity is- Yeah ... you know, too much clarity didn't kill anybody. Yeah. I, I could, I c- I could see where they're coming from. I, I don't think it holds up, and I don't think, I don't think it's sustainable. I heard a line was that it, it, that, that, um, ex-extremeness, is that the word I'm looking for? Extremity? The, the, the, the, the, the state of

1:10:00 Speaker 2 being extreme. What's the word? Extremism. Extremism, of course. Easy. Yeah. Not effort. That's, that's on my mind. Okay. He said extremism is the easiest but the hardest to justify. Right. Yeah. Well, 'cause it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's a very childish- Yeah ... way of looking at the world that's black and white. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like, sometimes, like I, I, I do see... Look, as like you said earlier- No, I'm not disagreeing with you ... we yearn for that innocence. We yearn for that. Yeah. We yearn for that. But, you know, the problem is, is that there's a disconnect between the lives that we live where we are at least thinking that we're more sophisticated and thinking that we're engaging in the world and more mature. And by mature doesn't mean more modern and more aufgeklärt, but just more adult kind of tolerance of, of ambiguity and, a-and doubt. You know, we, we, we engage the world that way. Can we really engage with, in our Lubavitch identity with these kind of simplistic black and white, you know, uh, clarity? It... I just don't s- I just don't see how it works. That's what I go back to what I said earlier, that to me there has to be from the get-go in, in our, in the seeds that we plant o-of our identity, in the... Whether it's in yeshiva when we're younger, or even today when we're thinking about our Lubavitch identity, that identity has to be thought

1:11:26 Speaker 2 of in the form of questions. It has to be form of... thought of in the form of tools, not in the form of static kind of, you know, yard, yard posts. Right. Like, this is where it ends, this is where it starts. It's more, it's more, it's more the why and like, and the how. Like, the, the questions that underneath it that, that, that, the... And, and, and, and, and the, and the ability to ask the right questions and, and the ability to tolerate questions, and the ability to be able to ask a question without, with, without risking e-everything while risking everything. That is the, you know, the there's a beautiful thing about Agdas Yutza where like why Data was able to end the Perek with a question, right? So Data was able to end the Perek with a question because he's asking about if the world is or not. That kind of question. Right. In, in She'ari Hakomona. Right. Like there, there's, there's... But like in She'ari Hakomona, exactly. The idea is that like there are qu- you know, we're supposed to be able to ask questions that are, that are so powerful that they could shake the entire foundation of our existence, but we ask it in such a way that we're comfortable with that kind of upheaval. Not comfortable, but we, but we're, but we're... I don't... It, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a complete paradox. We're like, we, we are, we are, we are comfortable with up- with upheaval.

1:12:59 Speaker 2 We are, we are secure with, uh, with, with the insecurity. Like that is to me the cutting edge of, of Hasidic thought, where, you know, we, we, we, we, we tackle these very, very hard questions, um, you know, with, with, with, with some kind of foundational, I don't know what it is, but, but, but, but really deep and profound, uh, foundation that allows us to ask questions and allows us to probe. But you don't think that's the that we got? I mean, if I, if I wasn't- Well, it's not the one- ... saturated with Hasidism when I was a bachur, you don't, you don't think that some of these questions might have unsat me or, or, or, or, or, uh, uprooted me? Uh, I, I can't tell you what you grew up with. I mean, it's not what I'm hearing. No, I think, I think so. What I, what, what... It's not... I mean, I, I get... Look, I guess, I guess you could say, look, the fact, the fact that we've been having this conversation, the fact that we're even having this conversation in this and this year, in this and this stage of our lives when, when both w-when, you know, we've decided to not do what we thought we would do when we were growing up, and we're still having this conversation, doesn't that show that we were educated in a certain way that allows us... Maybe. You know, if we... This, that sounds very oblivious to me. Like, like, uh, that's

1:14:22 Speaker 2 like a massive limits close to the point of a stretch, but I hear you. I mean, I, I can't, I c-I can't say no, but what I could say is that I, I don't, I don't like- Do we still, do we still have the audience? Do you think people are still, uh, interested in this conversation? I don't care. You don't care. It's not about the listeners. All right. If you need to go, you can go. Oh, no, no. That's not, that's not the point. I'm just wondering if we're- I don't know. I mean, I, I can't, uh... You know, it goes where, it goes where it goes, man. Yeah. It goes where it goes. Um, yeah. There was something interesting that we were, that we s- that, that you mentioned to me once where I think you said, you said it by WhatsApp, where you, you said that like you, you've been to Ivy League schools and you, you like, you, you've, you've kind of... You've been in the room with, you know, the best and the brightest of law, and it doesn't come close to a, to a Duna Ningamura. Uh, I think it'd be interesting for you to unpack that a little bit, 'cause I think, you know, I think that would also be... I think that would be interesting in terms of, you know, how, how do, how does, how does pu- you know, pushing your identity into one direction, like, things kind of even out. You go over here, and now

1:15:44 Speaker 2 you see what you li- what you, what, what, what-

1:15:46 Speaker 3 Right

1:15:46 Speaker 2 ... what you have over here, you see it differently. Like, but by, by, by, by taking a step in one direction, you can look back and see where you were before in a different light.

1:15:55 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:56 Speaker 2 So, so, so unpack that a little bit.

1:15:58 Speaker 3 So what I said was that I, I was at the pinnacle of American academia. So, like, w- as far as, as, um... I mean, I don't know. It's, it's not... Maybe law is not true academia. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm disclaiming what I said. Um, it's true to an extent. I mean, there's a whole world of, of academia that I, that I didn't touch upon, which is, like, the PhD programs or the Jewish studies, where it's much more about... They're in it for the love of the game much more than the, the law.

1:16:23 Speaker 2 I know what you meant. You meant the world that everyone's in spell from.

1:16:26 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. And yeah, but... Yeah, and, and what I said was that, like, that type of Limud doesn't bring me any joy or, or en- or enjoyment or geshmack as much as sitting with a chavrusa that I connect with, that I have a sprach with, and going-- and, and, and who knows how to learn as well, and going through a sugiah with them. It's such a... It's a beautiful experience, and something that you don't have anywhere else. It doesn't exist in other forms. And I said that to you in the context of, like, on days when I'm like... When, when people have the struggle of, like, "What am I even doing here? I'm keeping kosher, keeping Shabbos. It's, it's infringing on my ability to excel at law. It's infringing on my ability to connect with my colleagues." Let's say, right? And you need to... In order to a-answer that question is you need to be connected to Limud HaTorah. And, and, and with the right people and learning the right things, because it reminds you why you're here, and there's... It's re- it's a, it's a really special and awesome experience that does, it does not have a parallel. That's it. Uh, end rant.

1:17:39 Speaker 2 It's not a rant. Um, but my question is: what did, what, what has that... How, how do you think, how do you think that's changed? You said earlier that you wanted to go in law to see, to, to prove that you could be a Lubavitcher who does law. But now that you do law, and now that you've, you know, you've gotten to an Ivy League, is Pe- Penn is-

1:18:01 Speaker 3 Penn is Ivy League.

1:18:02 Speaker 2 It's Ivy League school

1:18:02 Speaker 3 It's actually now nothing but a number four law school in the country.

1:18:04 Speaker 2 Right. You... Well, it's irrelevant what it is now. It's relevant what it was when you got in.

1:18:08 Speaker 3 Yeah. Fair.

1:18:09 Speaker 2 Okay. But, you know, Ivy League school. You got into Ivy League school, a hard school to get into. You, you, you hung around people that, you know, are looked up to. You know, a lot of a, a lot of people outside of that space and around the world would be very misspelled from that, understandably, right? You... So, so now you have that experience that most people do not have, do not have. How has that... You said that that would change how you saw yourself as a Lubavitcher, but how, but how it... But I think you meant it then as like, "Let me show you the, where a Lubavitcher can go."

1:18:43 Speaker 3 Right.

1:18:43 Speaker 2 But how... Looking back, what does it, what does that, what, what does this experience affirm to you? Um, let, let me, let me put it more directly. What, what has been the pos... Like, what, what it, what it... How has it made you prouder of your-

1:19:01 Speaker 3 Right

1:19:01 Speaker 2 ... of your, of your Lubavitch identity?

1:19:02 Speaker 3 Well, in, in the way that I just described, and I think I didn't nec-- I didn't come to this right away. I came to this recently. I, I was asking myself... I heard a, a line in a podcast. Funnily enough, it was by someone who most would consider a goofy guy, like Jimmy. It was Jimmy Fallon, and he was talking to Mike Birbiglia on his podcast. And he said someone had told him that you have the ability to make choices that make you happy.

1:19:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:19:28 Speaker 3 We, we know what makes us happy. We know what brings us joy, and we have the ability to choose those things and do those things that make us happy. Um, that was, like, the best piece of advice he's e- he's ever received, and it was like, yeah, it was something... A-and I was like... I, it's funny, I ha- I have a lot of these epiphanies when I go to Lakewood for Shabbos by my grandparents, 'cause, like, there's a certain culture there that's to be admired, where people really take Limud HaTorah seriously. And I was like, you know, or maybe you can look at it as a context of, like, Shavuot Bonu Shav Avim, the Baal Shem Tov says that there's a Basco that comes out, and that Basco manifests as a Hiru Tшуva. So I had this Hiru Tшуva where I was like, "Learning makes me, makes me ha... I like to learn, and it makes me happy. It brings me joy. Why am I not doing more of it?" And I made a chutz at that point where I'm gonna ch-

1:20:16 Speaker 2 But, but, but that's what you're talking about, like, how, how you can be, how you can be strong today. I'm asking, like, what has it made you... Your being in law school and seeing that world that you're, you're saying it doesn't compare to Limud HaTorah, how has it changed your, like, maybe this, maybe this identity that I thought was kind of small-minded and provincial in the first place-

1:20:40 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

1:20:40 Speaker 2 ... wasn't as provincial as I thought it was?

1:20:42 Speaker 3 Yeah. The... Yeah. I, I, I never put it in those terms because I ne- I also was never... I was not necessarily conscious of that, of like, I wanna leave Chabad identity when I was at... I, I always felt like this was inherent in the identity that I had. Like, my, my version of Chabad identity isn't provincial. That was like... It wasn't, it wasn't about necessarily, um- It wasn't necessarily about going outside of, of this... I spoke-- It was so funny

1:21:09 Speaker 2 So do you feel, do you, uh, to put it, to put it more, to put it more cleverly, do you feel... Now that you saw the world that you felt you needed to make a splash in, now that you've seen it, if you had to do it all over again, would you do it all over again?

1:21:24 Speaker 3 I think so.

1:21:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:21:25 Speaker 3 I mean, it was a wonderful exper- law school was a wonderful experience. I would recommend it to anyone. I mean, it was, it was fantastic.

1:21:30 Speaker 2 But now that you've had the experience, do you feel like you, you would, it would still be as enticing as it was then? Like, like is it as, as still a big of a deal in your mind?

1:21:38 Speaker 3 I think so.

1:21:38 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:21:38 Speaker 3 I think so. I think, I think it's, it's, it was like a homecoming for me because it was the way I saw, it, it was the way I saw Chabad identity, which was it, it is this broad tent thing, and there's nothing. I wanna show everyone that there's nothing to stop someone from doing, from being a Hasid and from, you know, going to law school. Like it didn't-- I want to like kind of like demonstrate that that's not a siren. I would do it aga- I would do it again because I think it's, it, it, it's true, you know-

1:22:09 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:22:09 Speaker 3 ... to me.

1:22:11 Speaker 2 But would it feel as ambitious?

1:22:15 Speaker 3 I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, it's a interesting thought experiment but also, you know, it, there's all the questions about like time travel.

1:22:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:22:24 Speaker 3 If you go back in time, I mean, all the factors would be there too. It would be rare. It would, it would be just as rare. It'd be-

1:22:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:22:29 Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't know.

1:22:30 Speaker 2 No. All right. Oh, I'm not asking you literally if you went back in time.

1:22:32 Speaker 3 No, I get it. Of course. I, I just, uh, I don't know the answer to this.

1:22:34 Speaker 2 So let me, let me, let me, let me end off with by, by asking the flip question. So I asked you like how being in law school has, would've made you prouder to be a Lubavitcher.

1:22:44 Speaker 3 There was other ways. It was manifested in other ways too. I think, um, I was married. I had a kid when I came into law school. The, the people I was in law school with were m- my age and slightly younger, who didn't have that kind of stability in their lives. I was friendly with the 30-year-olds in law school because there's certain maturity that marriage and kids give you. There's certain maturity that being Lubavitcher gives you that some of these kids were just kind of like still figuring their lives out. And I'm not saying good or bad, I'm just... I appreciated very much that I had that cult- that I came from a culture where, where, you know, I, I had a very strong identity coming into law school.

1:23:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:23:20 Speaker 3 Where people, where some of the other kids were still figuring out who they were. Uh, there's also like I had a certain vocabulary that other ki- other kids didn't, a certain vocabulary that surrounded the law in particular, but also surrounding ethics and a way of thinking about ethical questions and, and existential questions that unless you majored in philosophy, you, you know, you wouldn't necessarily have. And even those that did. Um, like I would talk to kids about, uh, you know, should I have kids? The guys, guys I went to law school with, I had a good, good friend who would like tell me about like, we'd talk about whether or not having kids was like a, a moral thing or... And, uh, yeah, I felt like I brought something to the conversation in that way, and it made me proud of where I came. And I, and I also didn't feel like I was lacking anything coming into that classroom, um, both intellectually and, um, you know, culturally. Maybe less, le- less so than some of the other frum kids that I was with maybe. I felt like I was, I melded pretty well with the other students of, of any background, and I'm still friendly with them till today. Um, and I did pretty well. I e- I excelled in that environment. It's not like I went in there and I-

1:24:35 Speaker 2 And you ascribe that, and you ascribe that to your upbringing and to your, your Lubavitch identity?

1:24:39 Speaker 3 Lubavitch identity, I mean, my parents definitely helped, uh, educate me. Um, I read a lot of books as a kid, and that's due to my, to the way my parents brought me up. And, um, being Lubavitch maybe helped me converse with people that I, that I, that... And, and articulate myself to people that didn't agree with me 'cause I was a, I'm a Yom. I always, I was never about like, I was never a Tehillim guy. I was never like, "Let's put on Tehillim," and that's it. I always wanted to like make an impact on people intellectually. So I would... I was 13 years old, 14 years old, I would, I would took my Tehillim extremely seriously. I would, I would have chavruses with people. We would talk with... I went, I went to this, to lawyers and, and, uh, in, in downtown Chicago, like really serious guys, and I was 14 years old. I would sit in their office, and we would talk philosophy, we would talk religion. I was pishish. And they, they, they, they lo- uh, probably it was like the novelty of like this little kid. It was funny because I had this, this one woman I would see every week, and she was quite secular, and we'd have all sorts of interesting discussions about religion. She took me very seriously as this kid. And I went back, and then I left, uh, ninth, tenth, eleventh grade. So I was si- 16 or 17 when I left. I came back when

1:25:50 Speaker 3 I was 20, maybe, so that was like three or four, five years out. And I decided to go on my old route. And I walked into her office and she says, "Leibel." The second I walk in. And it was like she had fallen off the radar. You know how that happens, where like people switch offices or the ne- next year shulchan don't have the same records.

1:26:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:09 Speaker 3 So nobody had been going to her for those three or four years, but she still remembered me by name when I walked in. But the point I'm trying... That, that, all that is to say that maybe that helped me, allowed me maybe to, to talk to people who I, you know, didn't see eye to eye with completely.

1:26:26 Speaker 2 What, what, what did law school, uh, this, this, this to me is, is, is, is my final question.

1:26:33 Speaker 3 Am I answering your question? I don't know.

1:26:35 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. What did law school, what did law school teach you about Chabad? Like, you know, okay, this, it, it, it revealed, it revealed the strengths that you had in your education and your, your personality and your identity, et cetera. But what did it teach you? Like what, what, what were some of the hard knocks or like the things, you know, okay, but, you know, there's something that, there's something that we, that there is for us to learn in law school.

1:27:03 Speaker 3 Oh, so much.

1:27:05 Speaker 2 We should have started with this. Okay.

1:27:06 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. Lots, lots and lots. Um- Uh, one thing that it opened my eyes to was that women can be just as smart and learned as men. That's like some of the smartest people in my class were women, and they handle with the Sugia just as well as any guy. And I think the reason why women in our community are not there is because they haven't been given the tools. Which is why I've made, like, women learning something that I'm passionate about because I don't think-- I think it's something that's been kind of taken from them. That joy that I experienced with sitting and learning a Sugia, I don't think should be dep- women should be deprived of that. Um, that's one thing. Um, uh, there's a certain seriousness with which, with which people take, you know, the academics, but I think that's just... You can't really get that out of yeshiva because there's a job and a degree attached to-

1:28:00 Speaker 2 Right

1:28:00 Speaker 3 ... there's a prize.

1:28:00 Speaker 2 There's no, there's no material, there's no material, yeah.

1:28:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, it's just, uh, it is what it is. I mean, and people wouldn't take law school seriously if that, if that wasn't the end.

1:28:07 Speaker 2 They wouldn't go to law school. Yeah.

1:28:09 Speaker 3 No one would go. Exactly. Um, yeah, there's a certain classiness with which people handle themselves, a certain degree of respectability. There's, um, there's a respect for the basic humanity of everyone. I mean, we've talked about this before, but, uh, I also learned a lot about, um, politics and the way, and American history through the lens of law, and, and that's definitely changed the way I see, you know, my, my role in this country, and, and I think that labavchers could, you know, learn a dose of kind of civic engagement, but that's, its own discussion. Um, what else? Um, yeah, I think it's kind of, uh, hits the high points. I'm sure we can squeeze more out if I, if I thought more deeply about it. But those are good thing. I'm very happy I, I learned them, and I think I've, I've learned to kind of meld the two and-

1:29:12 Speaker 2 So it's been an enriching experience.

1:29:14 Speaker 3 Oh, yes. Absolutely. And, and a friend of mine, a very good friend of mine who, um, went through a traumatic experience right before he started law school, and it was, it was weighing on him, and it was difficult for him, and he said, like, law school kind of freed him from that. And he's still, again, still from such a guy. But I think it's, it, it gives you a very strong sense of identity for those three years 'cause you're, you're doing this thing, and you, and, and there's always like you're working towards something, and it, it's really, it, it, it's healthy, I think. Because, because the opposite, the, the, the, the opposite of that is kind of feeling, uh, rudderless and anchorless. Like, you don't really know what you're... What, what am I doing? Where am I going? Like, what's going on? Like, that gives you something very... For those three years, it allows you to kind of find yourself in that very strong structure.

1:30:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, like, what I find interesting, uh, about this, and where this, where this will end is that, you know, I think there's a Gemara, I don't remember the exact question, but I think there's a Gemara that one of the reasons they should spread the, the Eden around the world is to-

1:30:20 Speaker 3 My wife and I were just talking about this Gemara

1:30:21 Speaker 2 ... to add gerim, right.

1:30:22 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:30:23 Speaker 2 To, to, to, to, to attract new people into the fold.

1:30:27 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:30:27 Speaker 2 Even though we don't proselytize, but by, by, by, by going out, um, you know, tho-those, those people who are always meant to be Eden, like we un- like we understand, I don't know what are these sentences. We understand they were always supposed to be Eden. Gershon and Sky are... They should come, they, they, they should come in, right? And he says let's talk about that as like About cynicism-

1:33:14 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:33:14 Speaker 2 ... about idealism

1:33:15 Speaker 3 And, and, and, and-

1:33:15 Speaker 2 About many thi-, about many things

1:33:16 Speaker 3 And that, and that teaches me-

1:33:17 Speaker 2 About many things

1:33:18 Speaker 3 ... about who I am as a person and who I am as a Chassid. Like, that, th- th- those things don't have to be mutually exclusive.

1:33:22 Speaker 2 And, and about who I am as a Russian.

1:33:24 Speaker 3 And as a... Exactly. Your Russian id- your Russian identity is important as well.

1:33:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So-

1:33:28 Speaker 3 Uh, but, but, but, or learning from other s- strands of Judaism, right? Or like-

1:33:33 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:33:33 Speaker 3 ... y- listening to, to a leased Moshe guy talk about something and being this ball or listening to a Breslover, whatever it is, or even sometimes if you, if you listen to like, you know, a conservative rabbi who has an interesting insight. Like, those are... We shouldn't be afraid of, of, uh, of, of learning things and, and integrating things and, and obviously you have to check it against what we know to be true, which is why the anchor is important. And yes, there's always a fear, there's always a risk of us taking certain ideas too far and, and if we normalize this kind of drifting, then people may drift too far. But I think the, the risk of not doing that is, is, is worse, A, uh, because we become kind of like just like kind of dead inside. But also like, like, there are so many people that, that are, are, that think that, that the, that Dostoevsky and Chabad are mutually exclusive, so if I like Dostoevsky, I can't be Chabad. And like, I think that, that we could be talking to them too and saying, "No." I mean, it, it... Yeah. And, and, and not everybody has to do this 'cause-

1:34:37 Speaker 2 I mean, I, I-

1:34:37 Speaker 3 ... you know, some people could, uh, you know, l- learn to this and, and be a Yid and, uh-

1:34:42 Speaker 2 I think your example earlier about, about, about, about-

1:34:44 Speaker 3 I don't know what I'm saying

1:34:45 Speaker 2 ... I think, I think your example earlier-

1:34:47 Speaker 3 Let's see.

1:34:47 Speaker 2 Of gir-

1:34:47 Speaker 3 Let's see

1:34:48 Speaker 2 ... of girls, of girls, of, of like, of, of having classmates who were girls who, you know, in, in the frum world, whether you like it or not, men are within our framework. Yes, people go to school afterwards, but within our school system, the, the male school system is more intellectualized than the girls-

1:35:06 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:35:06 Speaker 2 ... school system. There's no question about it.

1:35:08 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:35:08 Speaker 2 Nobody's gonna convince me otherwise. And nobody will even try.

1:35:11 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:35:11 Speaker 2 I don't think anybody even makes believe like it's-

1:35:13 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:35:13 Speaker 2 ... like it is. And you're saying, look, like, I see that, that I was in a class with girls and they were able, they were, they were my equals.

1:35:23 Speaker 3 100%.

1:35:23 Speaker 2 They were, they were, they were not-

1:35:24 Speaker 3 In every way.

1:35:25 Speaker 2 You know, they were my equals. And, um, you know, why can't, why can't we demand the same for our daughters and, you know, and for, for our community? You know, and of course, that's a very easy case because and I, I hate to like, to like, you know, bring-

1:35:41 Speaker 3 And they never wanted it. I'm saying-

1:35:42 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, but I hate to go there where like, I, I, I-

1:35:44 Speaker 3 Like, they never wanted the way to learn on the highest level.

1:35:47 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, but I hate to go there 'cause like everybody likes to say whatever they think is what the rabbi said.

1:35:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:35:50 Speaker 2 But like, I, I do happen to know that the rabbi said that about Beis Rivkah.

1:35:54 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:35:54 Speaker 2 Like it's all, the, in, in this world-

1:35:55 Speaker 3 But, but Lubavitcher, I mean, Nalam are too afraid to take it there.

1:35:59 Speaker 2 No, because, because I think... Look, at the end of the day, this, you know, again, this, this would have to be a whole different conversation, but, you know, the rabbi was talking, rabbi was talking truth.

1:36:10 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:36:10 Speaker 2 And truth is always not just hundreds of years out, it's infinite years out.

1:36:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:36:15 Speaker 2 Right? The, the s- the, the gap between Emes Le'mitoy and the world as it is, is, is infinity.

1:36:22 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:36:22 Speaker 2 Right? So it takes a very long time for a community to get there.

1:36:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:36:27 Speaker 2 It might take infinite time to get there.

1:36:28 Speaker 3 Yeah, not like resentful or upset or anything.

1:36:29 Speaker 2 It might take infinite time to get there.

1:36:30 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:36:30 Speaker 2 You know, the rabbi's talking here and, and, and we're talking in a ti- he's talking at a dinner of a, of a Beis Rivkah school right after World War II, which was one of the first girls schools in the Jewish community ever.

1:36:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:36:41 Speaker 2 And I don't feel it was the first or one of the first. And he's talking about it being, you know, a place where girls are given an intellectual or a, a, a, um, a, a, a, a very, a very thorough intellectual upbringing. Okay. You're talking about someone who's talking generations ahead of the curve right now. Okay? At the very least. So yeah, I mean, but one of the ways that we get there, one of the ways we get there is by people pushing the envelope, and it's not, it's not about like it's a right thing or wrong thing. I'm not the one to decide right or wrong. That's not what the discussion is about. But people that do go there for whatever reason and, and, and, and, and they're still negotiating with their Chabad identity, they still believe that, that that's something valuable and important, and they bring back from their, from their travels, from their experiences, they bring back things that can strengthen and, and, and cultivate that identity. You know, who am I to say if it's a right or wrong thing, but I, I don't see any other way.

1:37:44 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:37:45 Speaker 2 Anyways, uh, been a pleasure. We talk all the time. Uh, if it isn't obvious to anybody listening to this, we spoke, we, you know, this was-

1:37:51 Speaker 3 It was a, it was a, a serendipitous, uh-

1:37:54 Speaker 2 It was a-

1:37:54 Speaker 3 ... meeting, and one that I- I'm very thankful and grateful for. I'm happy that our paths crossed and, and, uh, I enjoy to, uh, to, uh, the exclusion of almost all el- all, everyone else sitting with you and, and, uh, learning and kvellinging.

1:38:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:38:12 Speaker 3 I feel like you're a kindred spirit.

1:38:14 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:38:14 Speaker 3 And, and w- and we're, we're not a dime a dozen.

1:38:17 Speaker 2 The feeling is mutual, but it, it's, it's wrong that you waited two hours-

1:38:22 Speaker 3 To butter your bread

1:38:22 Speaker 2 ... to, to say this. Not to say this. Who, who's gonna be listening at this point? Anyway.

1:38:27 Speaker 3 Put this as like the excerpt that every podcast has, like right at the beginning to catch people's attention.

1:38:32 Speaker 2 Oh, that you like me?

1:38:33 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1:38:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:38:34 Speaker 3 You need to make a little, a little self-serving, uh-

1:38:37 Speaker 2 Okay. Now we're falling off even

1:38:37 Speaker 3 ... scoop.

1:38:38 Speaker 2 Anyway, yeah. It's been a pleasure.

1:38:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:38:40 Speaker 2 I have to go to bed.

1:38:41 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:38:41 Speaker 2 Anyways, hag sameach.

1:38:42 Speaker 3 Hag sameach. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.