Marketing Products According to Halacha - Rabbi Yisrael Meatuf shlita

00:02 Speaker 1 You’re listening to “Lema’an Yishme’u,” a podcast from the Chabad Halacha Institute.

00:09 Speaker 2 In the previous classes, we learned how to set a price for a product and how to prepare it for sale—that you may not do things that mislead people by making a product look new, and so on. Now we’ve reached the stage where the seller stands before the buyer, markets the product and sells it. Today, selling is a serious field that people study. Salespeople are in demand. So the question here is: Where is the line between deceiving someone and doing your job? If you tell a salesperson, “Don’t say a word; don’t say this, don’t say that”—well, selling requires a little persuasion. It takes certain things. What is permitted and what is forbidden? Now, not everything is spelled out in halacha. There aren’t really explicit laws on how to market a product. We have to gather them from various places. I’ve collected a few sources here. One of them is the Shnei Luchos Habris, which I don’t have in front of me right now, so I’ll tell you from memory what it says. We’ll see that some things are all right. There were Tannaim who forbade more than we might think, but in practice we’ll see which things are permitted and which are forbidden. So let’s begin. First we’ll learn how to present a product to buyers. Then we’ll discuss methods of marketing and persuasion—what’s permitted and what’s forbidden—and, time permitting, the laws of discounts and special offers. You give a discount to persuade someone to buy. Is that allowed? Of course it is; everyone knows there are discounts today. But can someone else claim, “What are you doing? You’re offering discounts? You’re drawing all the customers to yourself and hurting my business”? And how should discounts be offered? We’ll also discuss withholding information about defects. Those last two topics are if time permits. We’ll explain. Now, first: how do you present a product to buyers? There’s what you tell them verbally—you say things that aren’t

02:38 Speaker 2 true. You might say it aloud, or you might write it on the product. That is certainly forbidden. Here, for example, we see grape juice labeled “100% natural.” If it isn’t really 100% natural, that’s forbidden.

02:53 Speaker 1 It isn’t a hundred; no.

02:54 Speaker 2 Now, throughout this discussion we’ll keep running into things that everyone does, and everyone understands they aren’t exactly as written or as stated. The question is how far that’s permitted. For example, “100% natural.” I don’t know exactly what the law says about it, but often a product says “100% natural,” and it isn’t really a hundred percent; it’s ninety-nine point something. Various ingredients are added that don’t prevent it from being called “100% natural.” Now, by the strict wording of halacha, “100% natural” means 100% natural. There’s nothing else in it. On the other hand, it’s customary to write that, and everyone understands. Regarding this sort of detail, we mentioned last time the practice of soaking meat in water so that it looks fatty. There, [unclear] writes that even though all sellers customarily do this, strictly speaking it’s permitted, but someone who guards his soul should stay away from it. Why? Because some people will look at it and think it really is fatty. Otherwise, why does everyone soak it—to make people think it’s fatty? So because some people may be misled, someone who guards his soul should stay away from it.

04:07 Speaker 1 Does that refer to the buyers or the seller?

04:10 Speaker 2 To the seller.

04:10 Speaker 1 To the seller.

04:11 Speaker 2 To the seller. I gave you an example: pictures on packaging that make the product inside look better, though everyone understands it doesn’t look exactly like that inside. Yes, I gave the example of Kariot cereal in milk: you see it leaping up with this special-looking milk and these special-looking pieces of cereal. You understand that it doesn’t look like that inside. Rather, you understand they do it to catch your eye. In a case like that, seemingly there’s no reason to say that someone who guards his soul should stay away from it, because no one in the world is going to be misled. Or there are all kinds of serving suggestions, labeled “serving suggestion.” But the point is, nobody sees croutons pictured with a fresh salad and thinks there’s a fresh salad inside. These things—

04:53 Speaker 1 For illustration only.

04:54 Speaker 2 What? Yes, yes, they also write “for illustration only” on a serving suggestion. I’m saying that from a halachic standpoint, if it’s something no one in the world would be misled by, there’s no problem. When does a problem begin? When some people might be misled. Now, “100% natural”—I don’t know, that’s a little... It could be that a product owner who wants to follow halacha fully, if it isn’t 100% natural, would need to stay away from that, as [unclear] writes. But strictly speaking, strictly speaking, it would be permitted.

05:23 Speaker 1 There’s the question of... You’re selling a product. We were given the example of strawberry juice. When you want to tell someone it’s really grape juice, and not grape-juice concentrate mixed with water or who knows what—even if the person understands that distinction, it doesn’t mean they rule out the possibility that preservatives have been added.

05:52 Speaker 2 Yes, I understand.

05:53 Speaker 1 So that it won’t spoil over time.

05:54 Speaker 2 I understand.

05:55 Speaker 1 So wouldn’t that also count when it comes to “100%”? It’s not that I added sugar or something else.

06:01 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. I’ll repeat the question for the recording—for those listening to the recording. You’re saying that often, when it says “100% natural,” it isn’t literally so. From the outset, people don’t take that to rule out a small amount of preservatives and so on.

06:13 Speaker 1 It’s natural.

06:14 Speaker 2 The point is that it’s natural.

06:15 Speaker 1 Yes, it’s not some added concentrate with—

06:17 Speaker 2 Yes, but seemingly the measure here has to be what the buyers understand. That’s the measure. You can write “natural grape juice” if you want them to understand that it’s natural and not synthetic. Yes. All right, but look—

06:37 Speaker 1 With a product, it’s almost impossible.

06:39 Speaker 2 Yes.

06:39 Speaker 1 For a product to meet the requirements of shelf life, a person—

06:44 Speaker 2 Yes, so that it can be—yes, right.

06:49 Speaker 1 All the...

06:50 Speaker 2 Right, right. It could be that this already counts as a situation where—

06:52 Speaker 1 If you go into a boutique shop, I’m saying, there’s a difference between how you view a boutique shop where it says “100%”—

06:58 Speaker 2 Yes.

06:59 Speaker 1 It doesn’t look like Super-Sal, but it says “100%.”

07:01 Speaker 2 Yes, he understands. You’re saying that he takes into account that there’s something preserving the product.

07:05 Speaker 1 Exactly, that’s exactly it.

07:06 Speaker 2 Okay. Yes. Now, that’s when you write something in words. “In words” means saying or writing it. There’s also a visual presentation. Here you can also see another grape juice with a picture of grapes. It doesn’t say “100% natural,” and it doesn’t say it’s made from grapes. It could be juice made from all kinds of other ingredients, without a trace of fruit. Right? Incidentally, even grape-flavored juice that contains no fruit has a picture of grapes, but it says “contains no fruit.” But if you make a bottle that looks like grape juice, put a picture of grapes on it, and write something on it so that everyone understands it’s grape juice, when there’s no grape juice inside—that’s also misleading. Where do we see this? Let’s look. We already read this at length, source number one here: “It is forbidden to beautify a person, an animal, or utensils that are being offered for sale. In the case of a person, for example, an elderly Canaanite slave who dyes the hair of his head and beard so that he appears young.” Here the Alter Rebbe is discussing dyeing his hair. When you put him up for sale, you aren’t saying, “I have a young slave here.” You’re only dyeing his hair. But that’s also forbidden, because you’re leading people to believe something that isn’t true. So that’s also a problem. Now, that’s the general principle. Let’s turn to permissible marketing methods. Afterward, we’ll move on to what’s forbidden. I’ve called this section “Legitimate Means of Persuasion.” We’re used to asking whether something is “legitimate,” meaning acceptable, but the point here is whether halacha permits it. So the first thing is emphasizing a product’s virtues. You’re selling a product, and you tell the buyer about it, emphasizing all its virtues. You say

08:56 Speaker 2 It’s this way and that way and that way. In principle, this is permitted. There’s a source here in Mesillas Yesharim that expresses a kind of general rule on this whole subject. That’s number two. Mesillas Yesharim says: “And if you say in your heart, ‘How can we possibly avoid making an effort in our business dealings to persuade others about an item and its value?’” How can you conduct business like that? Are we not allowed to say a word? You have to persuade people. That’s part of doing business: persuading someone about an item and its value, explaining how much it’s worth and why it’s good. Mesillas Yesharim answers: “There is a great distinction here. Any effort to show buyers the true quality and beauty of an item is good and proper.” You’re teaching the buyers, explaining how good it is and how beautiful it is—excellent. That effort is good and proper. “But concealing a defect in one’s merchandise is nothing but deception, and it is forbidden. This is a major principle of honesty in business.” In other words, there’s no problem with persuading someone, with explaining how good something is. If it’s true, excellent. You want to emphasize its good points? Excellent. Emphasize them. You’re not lying about it, and you’re not hiding anything. So that’s fine, and it’s permitted. If you hide things, that’s already forbidden. Now, there’s a phrase—I told you it was from Shnei Luchos Habris, but it doesn’t appear here. He writes, “And he should not praise it too much.” That’s what he writes about the product you’re selling: “And he should not praise it too much.” So I think that by “too much” he means more than is warranted. In everyday Hebrew, we say “too much” to mean a lot, but in Lashon Hakodesh it often means more than is proper, more than it is—more than the truth. Apparently that’s what he meant: don’t praise it too much, don’t

10:58 Speaker 2 praise it beyond what is warranted, beyond what is true. Apparently that’s what he means. Another thing you can do is add beauty and convenience. We mentioned this before. To attract someone to buy, he makes the product more attractive or adds various things that make it more convenient. We’ll see examples in halachah in sections three and four. Section three discusses new utensils, which may be painted to beautify them. The Alter Rebbe says: “And likewise, one may beautify them in other ways, even if their price rises and they are valued at more than the improvement itself is worth.” In other words, not only do you make them more attractive to draw buyers, you also raise the price because of their beauty. He says that’s permitted. “And there is no deception or overcharging here, because the person who pays extra for their beauty does so knowingly.” So it’s permitted because the person wants the beauty. Beauty is part of the marketing, and that’s it. The idea is to—what?

12:06 Speaker 3 Adding convenience.

12:07 Speaker 2 I added beauty. Now, if I check how much beauty I added—I gave an example last time: someone took several products and made a mishloach manos package. I calculated that all the products cost fifty shekels. I added a few flowers. How much do the flowers cost? How much does the work I did cost? Why should I raise the price to a hundred shekels? Nevertheless, it’s permitted. Now, this isn’t so simple. We’ll see the next example, which is a dispute among the Tannaim. The halachah rules that it’s permitted, but there is a dispute among the Tannaim. In section four.

12:37 Speaker 3 Like, for example, coffee—people are willing to pay for artistry, prices—

12:44 Speaker 2 Yes.

12:47 Speaker 3 They don’t come to—

12:47 Speaker 2 Yes, works of art. Works of art also have... That’s called a different market. They have a value of their own. It’s not that the laws of overcharging apply to works of art in the same way; they have their own value. Most of the time—

13:02 Speaker 3 Wait, but there are markets, and what—what do you mean? You mention the drawbacks as well as the advantages, but you emphasize the advantages more. Like, if I have an ordinary product for sale, it remains [unclear], and it doesn’t—

13:13 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, you emphasize them. Yes, yes. You mention the drawbacks—drawbacks that aren’t visible, right? If there are drawbacks that are visible in the item, you don’t have to mention them. The person sees them right in front of him; you don’t have to say anything. That would drive buyers away. Now, regarding adding beauty and convenience: beauty is what we’ve just discussed. Convenience is number four, and we read this then as well. The Alter Rebbe says: “One may sort the refuse out of groats and legumes so that they look attractive to the buyer. This is not considered deception, because it is visible to the eye, and the buyer can see and understand how much more they are worth once the refuse has been removed. He is happy to pay more for them so that he will not have to go to the trouble of sorting them himself.” This is an example disputed by the Tannaim in the Mishnah. Rabbi Yehudah forbids it. Rabbi Yehudah forbids cleaning the groats. What’s the problem? I cleaned them, and I’m selling them for more. Nevertheless, he forbids it. Why? Because if you check, previously you had, say, a kilo of groats together with their refuse, and you sold it for twenty shekels. Now that they’re clean, you sell them for forty shekels because they’re clean. If you check how much was actually added to the value of the kilo—take out and weigh the refuse you removed, and see how many groats remained from that original kilo—it won’t amount to another twenty shekels, just a little more. So Rabbi Yehudah forbids it, because you’re essentially drawing someone into buying, and he’s supposedly paying extra money for nothing. That’s Rabbi—

14:43 Speaker 3 How much extra?

14:43 Speaker 2 What?

14:44 Speaker 3 How much extra?

14:46 Speaker 2 Say it should cost thirty based on the quantity—

14:50 Speaker 3 You sell it for thirty.

14:50 Speaker 2 And you sell it for forty, or thirty-five—it doesn’t matter. According to Rabbi Yehudah, there’s supposedly an element of taking extra money from the buyer for nothing.

14:59 Speaker 3 He gets the merchandise.

15:00 Speaker 2 No, he gets the merchandise, but because the merchandise is clean, he pays more than—

15:05 Speaker 3 More than what it cost to remove the refuse.

15:07 Speaker 2 Yes, more than the value of the refuse you removed. So the Alter Rebbe says: “There’s no issue of deception here; it’s visible to the eye. The buyer can see and understand how much more they are worth because the refuse has been removed. And not only that—he wants it that way, and he’s happy to pay more so he won’t have to go to the trouble of sorting them.”

15:24 Speaker 3 They do that all the time with vacuum-packed products.

15:27 Speaker 2 For example, with vacuum packing, when a person doesn’t have to—good, that’s a very good example. When he doesn’t have to sort it himself, they sell it for more. Now, let me say something for a moment. There’s a question here: why are you selling it for more?

15:40 Speaker 3 More—there’s something to it, right? That’s what—

15:41 Speaker 2 So the person’s convenience—

15:43 Speaker 3 It’s the work.

15:44 Speaker 2 Is also worth money. Yes.

15:47 Speaker 3 What does it mean that everyone can see it?

15:48 Speaker 4 No, it isn’t that everyone can see it. He sees the grain [unclear], or is that it?

15:52 Speaker 2 He sees—

15:54 Speaker 3 The refuse. You can see the... Can you see it here?

15:56 Speaker 2 You can see that it’s clean.

15:58 Speaker 3 But the question is—

15:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

15:59 Speaker 3 If it’s just—

16:03 Speaker 2 Yes.

16:05 Speaker 3 The question is whether it’s—

16:05 Speaker 2 Right, there it’s more a matter of quantity. A person knows, more or less, that the increase in price is greater than the amount of product he gained, because he can see how much there is with the refuse and how much without it. But with flour, he doesn’t... He simply knows that this one is sifted and that one isn’t, and he agrees to that. He agrees to pay more because it’s sifted. But we really need to look at why the Alter Rebbe is so precise about its being “visible to the eye.” Apparently, why isn’t what he says at the end enough—that the buyer is happy to pay more to avoid the trouble? Why does he need to emphasize that it’s visible to the eye? Apparently the point is that there’s a rule regarding overcharging: a person has to know how much extra he’s paying. It isn’t enough for a seller to tell a customer, “Listen, my prices are high. Buy it anyway; my prices are high.” That isn’t enough. The customer has to understand. You say your prices are high—maybe you add one shekel to each product, when in fact you add five shekels to each product. You have to tell him, “Listen, compared to the market price, I charge ten percent more.” Only that way, when it comes to the threshold for overcharging. So here, too, apparently that’s what the Alter Rebbe wants: for the person to understand how much the price has been raised. So—

17:12 Speaker 3 He’s talking about the owner; only he knows what’s written there...

17:16 Speaker 2 Yes, seemingly. Seemingly. It still needs more thought, though. So what is happening here? Someone has added convenience, and you can charge more for it. So when it comes to marketing methods, if you add more convenience, more features, more things to attract a person, there’s no problem with that. Now, giving gifts. Someone gives gifts to attract people, and this isn’t just the familiar “buy something, get a gift.” A person comes to you and you give him a gift—not “buy and get,” but a gift before he buys anything. “Take this for free.” Why? Because there’s a principle in psychology that when a person... there’s a name for it; I’ve forgotten it. Reciprocity, I think. Receiving something creates a desire to give. So you’ve given him a gift—he walks into the store, you give him a gift on the spot, and now he wants to give you something in return. He’ll feel less comfortable leaving without buying from you, so he’ll buy from you. Seemingly, that’s a kind of pressure on him. But in section five we have a clear source permitting the distribution of gifts. The Alter Rebbe says: “And the second shopkeeper is permitted...” This is about someone opening a store next to another store, which, as we said, is a separate subject that we’ll devote a separate class to. So the second shopkeeper is permitted to hand out roasted grains and nuts to children and maidservants sent to the store to shop, so that they will come buy from him. And seemingly there’s something novel here: you’re not just giving a gift to the buyer himself; you’re giving it to the messenger, enticing the messenger to come shop here. He isn’t the one in charge of making the decision; he’s only the messenger. Nevertheless, it’s permitted, because the person who sent him doesn’t mind where the messenger shops. You give the messenger gifts, and he comes to buy from you. An example of this today

19:06 Speaker 2 comes up quite often with various agents, administrators of institutions, and purchasing representatives for institutions. They’re offered various perks to get them to buy from a particular place. Now, this is a little different. Why? Because for the child or maidservant going to the store, it really makes no difference whether they buy here or there. There’s no problem with it. But when we’re talking about a purchasing manager dealing with companies, we have to be careful that it doesn’t become bribery. Because bribery, although it was said—

19:45 Speaker 3 His own interests.

19:46 Speaker 2 Yes, exactly—that the messenger shouldn’t pursue his own interests. There are situations where one company offers better terms to the person who sent him, but because the messenger was enticed and given something, he’ll go to the other company. So we have to be careful here. There’s a fine line between what’s permitted and what’s forbidden. Although the Torah speaks of the laws of bribery in relation to a judge, the author of Shiltei Giborim says that they also apply to anyone whose position involves making decisions. He may not accept a bribe that would change his decisions. So we need to pay particular attention to that. Okay.

20:29 Speaker 3 I’m wondering... Could it also be forbidden to give it in a way... Something worth a hundred shekels, for less than a hundred—

20:37 Speaker 2 We should say that gifts are permitted up to a certain limit.

20:40 Speaker 3 So that’s the point. It’s like there are people, religious and nonreligious.

20:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

20:43 Speaker 3 But the small question is what we need to understand about the perks he offers.

20:46 Speaker 2 Yes.

20:54 Speaker 3 To give something in return for... the return that... and yet the patients aren’t receiving it.

21:32 Speaker 2 Ah, okay.

21:33 Speaker 3 Even so...

21:34 Speaker 2 All right, okay. That’s—

21:35 Speaker 3 That’s what he’ll tell me. I really understand.

21:38 Speaker 2 Okay, I’m only now understanding what you’re talking about—the issue of treatment for...

21:43 Speaker 3 They aren’t getting the proper treatments.

21:45 Speaker 2 Yes.

21:46 Speaker 3 It isn’t a matter of life and death, but it is a matter of quality of life. That happens because in dentistry, too, [unclear]. It’s an issue of [unclear].

21:59 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Okay, these are matters for—

22:03 Speaker 3 It doesn’t always...

22:04 Speaker 2 Leaders need to weigh them and really consider the public’s welfare against the issue.

22:11 Speaker 3 It isn’t always in the public’s interest.

22:14 Speaker 2 Yes. Okay, so here he says that it’s permitted to hand out gifts. He says that the other shopkeeper can tell him, “I hand out nuts; you can hand out almonds.” I can give those gifts too. And we emphasized that he goes on: “Therefore it is permitted to lower the price or increase the quantity, because his competitor can do the same.” It’s because his competitor can do the same. There could be a situation—and many poskim discuss this, and it can be inferred from the Alter Rebbe’s words—where a person opens... This is a subject in its own right, right? But in a word, someone opens a store, a business. Often, in its first year, the business operates only at a loss, because he’s planning and building for the future. So throughout that first year, he sells at a loss to attract all the customers to him. In that situation, what the Alter Rebbe writes—that his competitor can do the same—doesn’t apply. He’s selling in a way that his competitor can’t match. He’s in his first year, so he’s decided to take the plunge and do it. If it’s something within normal business practices, then it’s possible. Today, any supermarket can sell you one product for ninety agorot and lose money on that item, because it makes a profit on all the other products. It can do that with this product or that product. But if it reaches a point where competition is no longer possible—he lowers prices so much that he disrupts the market and could cause the other store to close—that’s already a problem. And that’s a subject in its own right. Another thing is creating a shopping experience. This is similar to appearance and convenience. People use a pleasant scent, put on music, all sorts of

23:50 Speaker 2 things. It has an emotional effect. There’s no problem with that; there’s no deception involved. Intellectual persuasion—of course you’re allowed to persuade someone—and an emotional connection: you ask a person, “How are you? How are you feeling?” and build a relationship with him. Up to this point, it’s within acceptable bounds. Now let’s move on to things that are problematic. Concealing negative information. It’s very common, but it’s forbidden. If someone is selling something and knows the product has a defect, he must disclose its defects. This comes up most often in sales of secondhand homes or cars. It’s very hard to tell someone about a recurring leak or things like that, but halachah says you have to disclose it.

24:39 Speaker 5 What he knows about.

24:40 Speaker 2 Yes, what the person—anything the buyer can’t see for himself and the seller knows about. Misleading presentation is an example we discussed earlier. You put up a picture of grapes. Someone is selling shoes and places various things beside them that make people think the shoes he’s selling are genuine leather. He hasn’t said anything—he hasn’t said or written that they’re genuine leather—but he leads people to understand that they are. That’s also forbidden.

25:09 Speaker 5 The law also says that on products, you have to write it clearly.

25:14 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. Write it beforehand. Fake discounts.

25:22 Speaker 5 Exactly.

25:22 Speaker 2 And we’ll devote either a whole class or part of a class to this entire subject of discounts: how, and under what circumstances, they’re permitted or forbidden. But briefly, if someone raises a price in order to offer a discount, that’s a form of misleading someone. The person thinks he’s getting a discount, but he isn’t getting any discount at all. Now, there are situations where it’s permitted and situations where it’s forbidden. There are stores that offer—for example, appliance stores. You walk into the store and see very high prices on the products, but at the register, everyone always gets a discount when they make a purchase. So that’s a little different. We’ll discuss it at length another time. Now, all sorts of dishonest tactics. Someone says, “Listen, by tomorrow I have another buyer who already wants to buy,” or things like that. If it’s true, there’s no problem. Even though it puts pressure on the person, you can say it: you’re stating the facts. He has the right to buy or not to buy. But if it isn’t true, it’s forbidden. It’s misleading someone. Like an extreme—

26:36 Speaker 5 What? I’m not saying a percentage.

26:38 Speaker 2 Yes. Then that would be a problem. What? What?

26:54 Speaker 5 He doesn’t—

26:56 Speaker 2 What are you saying? In practice, he has twenty... He has people who’ve expressed interest.

27:01 Speaker 5 But he isn’t doing anything. He... but he knows he’s saying it because he does—

27:06 Speaker 2 If he has... he needs to say it, to convey the message accurately. If he has a lot of other people interested, he can say, “There are a few others interested; there are a few others who want to come and see it.” He can’t say, “I have serious buyers.” It’s very difficult. I’m not saying... finding a clear standard for real-estate agents is very difficult, but that’s the halachah. That’s it. Now I thought of a few examples and wrote them down.

27:39 Speaker 5 The particular aspect of the work of

27:42 Speaker 2 Geneivas daas—deceiving someone—if you aren’t getting an extra shekel out of the buyer, it’s a rabbinic prohibition.

27:49 Speaker 5 You mean withholding negative information, for example? I’ll give the example of an apartment. A person doesn’t tell you exactly all the... And often a person won’t tell you

28:01 Speaker 2 the way it is.

28:01 Speaker 5 The apartment as it—

28:02 Speaker 2 Yes. Now, if these are things he can check and see with his own eyes, and you tell him, “Please, inspect the apartment,” then you don’t need to tell him. But if they’re things he can’t know, and only you know—

28:15 Speaker 5 He can check, or he’s looking here...

28:19 Speaker 2 No, not in my view. You come to see the apartment. I had a recurring leak. They kept painting over it and treating it, and it kept coming back, again and again. I found it very hard—

28:29 Speaker 5 That’s a different story.

28:30 Speaker 2 Yes, I painted over it.

28:31 Speaker 5 If it happens a minute after the person—

28:33 Speaker 2 Let’s talk about a minute afterward. Even a month afterward. But I know it comes back every month or two. So I told the person. I said, “Listen, there’s this issue here. This is what I discussed with a professional, and this is what he told me. There’s a problem with the waterproofing. You’d have to redo the flooring [?]; all the waterproofing needs to be replaced. Just painting over it doesn’t solve it.” I gave him all the information; he replaced it and bought the apartment. But it isn’t simple. I also had a crack, for example. Maybe that’s a relevant example right now. There was a crack, and I painted over it. I brought in a professional and had it painted. He told me, “Listen, it might come back. It might come back, or it might not.” I don’t know; I didn’t tell the buyer. Okay? But that’s a bit more of a gray area.

29:16 Speaker 5 A crack...

29:18 Speaker 2 What kind? A crack that appeared in the paint. It comes from the building shifting.

29:21 Speaker 5 Yes, but it’s not a crack in the—

29:23 Speaker 2 No, it isn’t... Right, and it isn’t a defect that causes any problem with the sale [?].

29:28 Speaker 5 It’s a bit borderline.

29:29 Speaker 2 Yes. Now, with a secondhand item, people understand there are all kinds of things that aren’t... It isn’t new. But there’s something that, in my view... The Rambam writes, and it’s in the Shulchan Aruch as well: What is the definition of a defect, of a flaw? He writes, “Anything that the people of the place agree would justify returning a purchase as a mistaken transaction”—something to that effect. In other words, something people recognize as a problem. A car that’s been in an accident is a problem with the car in people’s eyes. You don’t expect that; it’s a problem. But if there’s a button you have to press a little harder—I don’t know, things like that—it’s secondhand, and that’s part of the deal. By the way, there’s another solution the Alter Rebbe brings—no, the Alter Rebbe doesn’t bring it; it’s mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch. You tell the person, “I’m not going to get into what flaws it has or doesn’t have. I’m selling it to you for a hundred shekels less, and that covers whatever flaws it has.” And that really is the truth. So he understands that there are flaws, he understands it’s worth that much less, and he buys it. There’s no problem with that, because you’re bringing him into a different level of understanding. It’s like telling someone, “I don’t care about the market price. I’m telling you what I paid for it and what I’m selling it to you for.” The person goes into it knowing what he’s getting into. Now—

30:43 Speaker 5 …

30:43 Speaker 2 Yes. Now, examples of various things people say. For example, someone says, “Listen, you’re getting a good deal here. Listen, it’s a good deal; it’s worth it for you.” Often a salesperson in a store, the clerk, will say that. Or he says, “You’ll enjoy this. I have one at home, and I really enjoy it.” Or, “You won’t find this cheaper anywhere else.” Now, here’s what I think; tell me what you think. First of all, it’s customary to say these things. It is. The question is this: Earlier we gave the example of soaking meat, which everyone commonly does. Someone who comes in and sees fatty-looking meat knows that this is the customary practice. The question is whether, here too, a person knows that it’s customary to say these things even when they aren’t true. All the marketers say, “You won’t find it cheaper,” and so on—that’s true, they all say it. But do they all say it falsely? I don’t know. In my opinion, often when a person says, “You won’t find it cheaper,” it’s because he genuinely believes you won’t find it cheaper. I’m not sure you can say that it’s every merchant’s practice to say, “You won’t find it cheaper,” and that everyone who hears it understands that he actually will find it cheaper. I don’t think it has reached that point.

31:55 Speaker 5 You mean that abroad...

31:57 Speaker 2 Now, for this type of product. Could be. If it’s a different type of product, then there’s no problem.

32:02 Speaker 5 That he has one at home...

32:04 Speaker 2 Right. And if that’s really the case, excellent. But if it isn’t, then it’s a lie, and it’s forbidden, even if marketers commonly say it. But in my opinion, when someone says, “Listen, this is a good deal. I recommend it; it’s a good deal,” I think that with a statement like that, it’s obvious that a person who is an expert will recommend it to you. I mean, perhaps it’s in the same category as the fatty-looking meat, where the Alter Rebbe says, “People can disagree about whether it’s fatty.” Why can they disagree about that? Because someone might genuinely think it is fatty. Here too, perhaps someone will be naive and think, “He really recommended it to me, so it must be worth it.” But it seems to me that most people understand he’s recommending it because he’s selling it. I don’t know. These things aren’t written down; you have to use your judgment. Now, as for statements that are outright lies, those are certainly forbidden. There’s an example here, in items six and seven. Number six is from the Aruch Hashulchan. He says: “Conducting business faithfully does not mean merely refraining from theft.” When we tell a person to conduct business faithfully, it doesn’t just mean not stealing, because stealing is obviously forbidden. What’s the question? Someone who does that is a wicked person too. Rather, he gives several examples here, and one is that when a person says how much the merchandise cost him and that it is good, he must not lie in the slightest. In other words, he’s selling it at the proper price. He’s selling it without stealing even a shekel from the buyer. But he must not lie in what he says during the sale either—about how much the merchandise cost him or that it is good. That is called conducting business faithfully. No, no, that’s something else. “Conducting business faithfully” appears twice. It appears in this [unclear] of conduct, and it appears in “Did you conduct business faithfully?” Yes, it’s a concept that you have to... conduct

33:49 Speaker 2 faithfully.

33:50 Speaker 5 All these situations are Grade A.

33:53 Speaker 2 It says on it—

33:54 Speaker 5 He’s selling a product, selling a Grade B product.

33:57 Speaker 2 It depends. I mean, in Israel it really isn’t common. It says “Grade A” on it. If there’s no Grade B, that’s fine. If you take... Is there? With [unclear], when I came to buy it, there was Grade B.

34:15 Speaker 5 In America there aren’t many things like that.

34:20 Speaker 2 But that’s a grade... It’s an example of something. Let’s say there’s no Grade B, only Grade A. You write “Grade A.”

34:24 Speaker 5 Everything here is Grade A.

34:27 Speaker 2 Yes. So you write, for example, “Fine-quality merchandise,” or something like that. You’re not misleading anyone; you’re just highlighting something good. That’s an example of emphasizing a product’s merits. Now, for the seventh point, there’s an interesting book here, Yosef Ometz. It’s by a dayan I wasn’t familiar with, Rabbi Yosef Yuzpa Hahn—I’m not even sure how to pronounce his name. He was the head of the dayanim in Frankfurt. The book was printed exactly 300 years ago, in 5483, so it’s quite an old book. He writes: “Even if he does not say much—for example, if he says, ‘So-and-so wanted to sell it to me,’ or ‘I can buy it from him’...” By the way, there seems to be a mistake here, because those are the same thing: he wanted to sell it, and I want to buy it from him. He must have meant the reverse case, buying versus selling; you can see that from what follows: “...for this amount, and nevertheless I will buy it from you, or sell it to you for this amount, out of affection for you.” So that’s the example we gave before. You tell someone, “This normally costs 120, but I’m giving you a discount and selling it to you for 100.” Here it goes even further: he says he’s doing it just for you, out of affection for you. In truth, the regular price is 100. He isn’t stealing any money here, but the author concludes: “This is a lie that also involves the prohibition of misleading someone.” First of all, it’s a lie, because you’re saying something untrue. But it also involves misleading someone. Now, in the cases we mentioned earlier, sometimes there’s no lie, but there is still deception. You put up a picture of a product, things like that. You don’t say anything false; you don’t violate the prohibition against lying, but you mislead the buyer when he purchases something that isn’t what he thought

35:59 Speaker 2 it was. Ah, false promises. People do this a lot too. Someone says, “Delivery within two days,” when he knows it isn’t going to happen. And that, incidentally, is prohibited by Torah law. The Alter Rebbe says that if someone says he’ll do something and doesn’t keep his word—no, people are not pleased with him. He made a promise and didn’t keep it, though no formal acquisition was made. The Alter Rebbe holds that a person should keep his word. But if, when making the promise, he already knows he won’t keep it, the Alter Rebbe says that this is a Torah prohibition. The verse says, “Let your ‘yes’ be honest”—your “yes” should be truthful. You shouldn’t be saying one thing while thinking another. Saying one thing while thinking another, the Alter Rebbe says, is a Torah prohibition. So when someone sells something and says, “It’ll arrive on such-and-such a day; it’ll be like this,” while knowing he won’t follow through, that’s a Torah prohibition. And one last thing: applying physical or emotional pressure. Earlier, we spoke about doing things that create an emotional connection; that’s fine. Here the line is a little gray—exactly where the transition is. If someone applies emotional pressure to another person, the test is this: the person doesn’t want to buy, but buys because of the pressure you put on him. In that case, you’ve essentially forced him to buy. There’s a similar case in the Torah: forcing someone to sell, which violates the Torah prohibition of “Do not covet.” A person doesn’t want to sell, and you pressure him until he does—that’s “Do not covet.” The reverse situation, where you pressure him to buy, isn’t a Torah prohibition stated explicitly, but on the face of it, you’ve essentially

37:46 Speaker 2 forced him to do something he didn’t want to do, so that too would be prohibited. In short, the rule is that you can make a product look appealing, create a good experience, emphasize its qualities, and do all sorts of things to make the customer pleased with the purchase and its value, as Mesillas Yesharim says. There’s no problem with anything that’s true. But once you start doing things based on untruth—concealing a defect, for example, or saying things that aren’t true or accurate—even if you’re only trying to persuade him to buy and aren’t taking a penny more from him, all of that is prohibited as a form of theft.