ללמוד כמו בחור ב"תפארת בחורים" – הרב יעקב וגנר

00:00 Speaker 1 You're gonna need it to be repeated again, and then in a new ma'amar, and then in a... And each time you're coming across it, you have to stop and remember what makif really is, and what its application is, and you have to reignite, reawaken and rediscover on a whole new level the, the concept of makif.

00:22 Speaker 2 Right.

00:23 Speaker 1 And each time you rediscover it, there's a new light bulb that, that, that comes up, a new, "Aha, wow, this is what it means, and this is where it's relevant in my life." This is part of the process, without any question. And when you're starting, Baruch Hashem, with someone who is growing up from, who did grow up in a from home, and then w- w- was zecher to go to cheder and tishrei there's going to be the repetition of these things, and there's going to have to be each... at each stage of my discovery, of my growth, of my, uh, avoda, that I'm going to come up and say, "Aha, now I, I, I get it." And then tomorrow to say, "Yesterday I had no idea. Now I'm getting it."

01:11 Speaker 2 You know when you're at a good toichandike farbrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. Shalom Aleichem. I'm sitting here in Tiferes Zall in Marston, beautiful new Zall, um, plug, um, with my uncle, Rabbi Yaakov Wagner, mashpia rosh yeshiva, both.

01:42 Speaker 1 Menal.

01:43 Speaker 2 Menal. Menal of Tiferes. So first of all, as, as I know, um, that your family, my family did not grow up Lubavitch. Um, so what is your story com- becoming Lubavitch as a bachur, I'm assuming? Um, anything that's relevant that's, uh, that's pertinent to, to the journey of, of, of Chassidus, how, uh, how, how was that by you?

02:10 Speaker 1 So even though we didn't grow up Lubavitch, um, with my family's association with Lubavitch, with all my older brothers being Lubavitch through most of my childhood, um, uh, definitely my early teenage years, it was almost a foregone conclusion in many people's minds that I would end up a Lubavitcher. And there was a certain period in my life, in my early, earlier teenage years where I resented that, and I tried to distance myself from it. At a certain point, with all of the Sefarim that were around my house and, uh, my older brothers sharing, sharing various things, I ended up getting exposed specifically to Sichas more than to Chassidus per se.

03:15 Speaker 2 Interesting.

03:16 Speaker 1 And there was actually one incident when I was already in Zall, in my first year in Zall, that there was a chaversuev mine that found an old volume. It has the yeshiva, the stamp of the yeshiva where I was learning in Toronto, and somehow it ended up in the, um, Eitz HaSefarim in the yeshiva over there. It was an old volume paperback, white paperback, with a collection of the Sichas from Chelek Alef, Chelek Beis.

03:58 Speaker 2 Wow.

03:59 Speaker 1 Um, and it's, uh, uh, he found it, and he decided that he was gonna make a, a bonfire with it, and, um, I said, "I'll take it." That was my first volume of Likutei Sichos-

04:18 Speaker 2 Oh, wow

04:18 Speaker 1 ...that I owned. It was, although I was exposed to Yiddish growing up, uh, in Yesod HaTevah and, uh, in Mesivta, it was my first time reading in Yiddish. And, uh, when I used to speak in yeshiva, and I remember this even before I had that, and I needed something to say, so I'd open up some of the classic Sefarim that we had, and there was nothing that I felt that was innovative and something to bring across. But then I started looking in Likutei Sichos, and there were ideas which were so profound yet so relatable, and I would s- share them by a Shabbos, Sudar, yeshiva, whatever it was, by a Chanukah Mesiba. I remember even once, um, uh, sharing some ideas from Meshemenega-

05:19 Speaker 2 Oh

05:19 Speaker 1 ...and that was already in Zall. And the bachurim would come over to me afterwards asking me, "Where is this from? Where do you get this stuff from?" Because everyone was taken by the ideas. I didn't share. I didn't, I didn't respond. So there was this evolution when I was in Eretz Israel in learning in Mir. I purchased for myself, uh, from the street, they were selling the Likutei Sichos on Meyadim for Sukkot, Shemini Atzeret. So I had those two volumes, and, uh, I- I'm, uh, was caught learning it, but, uh, it was something which, uh, again, I was attracted to the ideas which w- were presented over there, but I was still far from making that step to becoming Lubavitcher. When I came home, when my father was niftar, um, Pesach time-

06:30 Speaker 2 You were then in Eretz?

06:32 Speaker 1 S- I was coming home from Mir.

06:34 Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

06:34 Speaker 1 That's g- That was my year in Eretz Yisrael.

06:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:38 Speaker 1 I ended up staying in Toronto, and, uh, staying in Toronto, I was learning Bais Hakivah together with Hakivah, and I was also learning in my old yeshiva in Toronto. I didn't feel, like, ready to go back to Eretz Yisrael at that time, and also davening for the Amud, which was a new experience for me.

07:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:06 Speaker 1 I felt much more comfortable, and I had a ready Amud always available, um, by Hakivah Yeshiva. So I was learning in both places a little bit. But in the summer when Hakivah Yeshiva went to Hamilton, I ended up going together with them.

07:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:23 Speaker 1 And over there I spent the summer, and, um, I started learning Chassidus a little bit more while I was there during the summer, and, uh, from there I was already neshtalzel.

07:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:39 Speaker 1 After that summer I was already, uh, fait accompli.

07:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. You went to a Lubavitch yeshiva for a year? Like, um, as a-

07:47 Speaker 1 So I learned Bais Hakivah Yeshiva, but it wasn't inside of any formal program.

07:53 Speaker 2 Right. These were all open-

07:54 Speaker 1 I was... Right.

07:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:56 Speaker 1 I was helping out, I was teaching a little bit, and I was learning over there. And I learnt in California, I was there as a dorm counselor for a little bit-

08:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

08:07 Speaker 1 ... and, uh, I learnt over there a little and, uh, then I ended up coming back to Hakivah Yeshiva.

08:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Wow, fascinating. So I wanna, um, touch on one thing you mentioned, which is probably the key of what you mentioned about the sichas. What you... Like, what, um, attracted you in the first place. So just to, um, expand on that a little bit, like, when you're saying what you f- saw the ideas in the sichas, um, and, like, you contrast, so you said like in other sfara, I mean, you know, there's, um, you didn't use these words, I'm assuming you mean like nice peshatlach, nice vertlach, but they're not like ideas. They're not, uh... So was, what, what attracted you then, because then you didn't have a background in Chassidus per se, was it the, the... In other words, I'm as- I'm assuming also it was the ga'inus of course everyone talks about. You know, the Rebbe, like you, I'm sure you saw that as a bachur that this was-

08:56 Speaker 1 To appreciate ga'inus, you have to have a little bit of ga'inus, which I don't and I didn't. Um, so, uh, it's not an appreciation of the ga'inus. It was a- an appreciation of there's, there's something new, there's something fresh, there's something real which is talking to me, which I'm able to share, and I'm able to give over.

09:18 Speaker 2 Right. Okay, yeah. So I am... Now that I say that, I didn't mean ga'inus per se. I meant, like, even within the nigla. That's what I mean. Like y- you saw the ideas even within the nigla. In other words, was it o- the-

09:28 Speaker 1 It, it, it's not something which is coming and just giving a speech. It's not something which is coming and, um, just giving a peshat. It's something which is taking Torah and making it into Torah cha'yim.

09:43 Speaker 2 Ah. Mm-hmm.

09:44 Speaker 1 Making it into something which is alive and real and relevant on every level.

09:50 Speaker 2 Wow. So eve- Uh, and, and I, I mean now as a Lubavitcher, like, uh, you know, it's hard to... I mean, for me, I grew up Lubavitch, but, uh, I'm assuming it's even for you it's a little bit hard to look back to, you know, hindsight. But now we know, we see that, like, um, even in the, even in the, the appreciation that the Rebbe gives to every word of Rashi or, you know, like, uh, already starting off the sicha, you know, with... You, you see the Rebbe's mindset of like To- like you said, Torah cha'yim, it has to be relevant. But then was it like at the end of the sicha when you, when the Rebbe spells out the haraon of ezas ha'adam? Or can you remember if you saw it then even in the way the Rebbe was going through the-

10:30 Speaker 1 So I, I was learning more chelek alef through daled at the time.

10:34 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Got it. So-

10:35 Speaker 1 Which is a different type of-

10:37 Speaker 2 Right

10:37 Speaker 1 ... sicha. Um, it's more, uh, uh, automatically that.

10:42 Speaker 2 Right. L'chatchila. Yeah.

10:43 Speaker 1 But what captured me even in those sichas was that you're not just coming to give over a powerful lesson, but you're coming to make it something which it, it's real, it's alive, and it's, has, it, it, it carries through the nigla, through the peshat, through the deeper dimension, and through every level it's something which is relevant and something which captures you.

11:16 Speaker 2 Right. It's, it's so, it's so geshmak to hear this because, like, we know this is what the Rebbe wanted and wants in his Torah, and like when we grow up with it, so it's like, okay, yeah, that, that's what it is. Like, it's so geshmak to hear it when, like, someone could... It's almost like a, a testimony that the Rebbe's derech was apparent, wa- you know, carried something-

11:38 Speaker 1 But this is where even when I shared it, when I was giving it over to other ta- other bachurim that were in the yeshiva where I was learning, it was something different. It was something that they recognized. This is a different srayer.

11:52 Speaker 2 Right.

11:53 Speaker 1 This is something we wanna hear. Where'd you get it from? Where did you even see this? Where did you read this?

11:57 Speaker 2 Right. It's fascinating. So mamash without even knowing that's supposed to be the Rebbe's shtitel, like it's, it's... Yeah. Okay. So that, that already is like- Is, is, you know, uh, you know, not that Rabbi needs our haskamah, chashamah needs our, our, our feedback, so to speak, but like it's, um, it-- The reason why it's kashmak to hear is because it reminds us again what we need to be doing when we learn chasidus, like what we have and therefore what we need to be paying attention to. So that's, uh, that's that. Um, okay. So then, you know, I guess skipping a little bit ahead, um, and then got married and you lived in Crown Heights first.

12:31 Speaker 1 I lived in Crown Heights. I was a year, a year in Crown Heights in Kehilal, and then I came here to Maristan. I started off in the cheder/mesivta. Officially, I came here to start a mesivta, to get a mesivta off the ground.

12:45 Speaker 2 Oh, wow.

12:45 Speaker 1 And that didn't take off then.

12:48 Speaker 2 And still hasn't.

12:49 Speaker 1 And it still hasn't. Um, so I ended up that following year coming over to Tiferes and teaching over here in Tiferes.

12:59 Speaker 2 Great. So as we all know, Tiferes was existing from the lameds, I think, uh-

13:03 Speaker 1 Tiferes existed from when Templit Mimim moved over to Maristan.

13:09 Speaker 2 From Newark.

13:10 Speaker 1 From Newark, when they moved to Maristan. So the Tiferes started already then as a whole Eshtalshtas Anyanim, which Rabbi Hirson has spoken about on numerous occasions and it's printed.

13:22 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:23 Speaker 1 That, uh, the, the shluchim that reached out to Rabbi Hirson and said, "You have a campus, you have space. We are looking for a place to have Baalei Teshuva."

13:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:31 Speaker 1 Rabbi Hirson wrote into the Rebbe then, and, uh, the responses were not immediately forthcoming. Um, the Rebbe didn't right away give, um, a, a okay for Tiferes to start, but he gave indications. Uh, I'm not gonna go through-

13:49 Speaker 2 Yeah

13:49 Speaker 1 ... all of the details of that story. But, uh, it started then already, and, uh, then it became the yeshiva that, uh, it developed into yeshiva which Baruch Hashem has proud alumni, uh, uh, is proud of its alumni and, uh, has alumni which are across the Lubavitch world in every community, in every place, um, uh, as ones who are helping the foundation of those communities.

14:17 Speaker 2 Right. Sure. And I'm, I'm gonna say it again. I know it sounds very corny, but, uh, I, I spent a lot of time in Maristan in past years. So when I walked into this room, which is the new renovated Tiferes Al, it used to be the Templit Al. It is magnificent. So if anyone watching this was ever in Maristan, you wanna come back and see this. So I know it's a corny plug, but, uh, it's taka, it's taka amazing. Um, so, so how did that happen with when, um, like who approached you for, about Tiferes? Like you were here, you said you were in the cheder, the mesivta, like trying a mesivta.

14:50 Speaker 1 So I was working for Rabbi Markowitz at the time.

14:53 Speaker 2 Right.

14:53 Speaker 1 And Rabbi Markowitz spoke to then Alon Tiferes, and, uh, um, the-- I, I came, I gave a share of a year. I was connected to some bachurim already.

15:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:04 Speaker 1 Then some of the bachurim who were there then, and I started the following year, started teaching at Tiferes.

15:10 Speaker 2 That's what, like twenty years ago around?

15:12 Speaker 1 Um, 2005.

15:14 Speaker 2 Wow. That's twenty, twenty-four years ago. Wow. Okay. And the re- and the rest is history and current events. So, uh-

15:20 Speaker 1 Yes

15:20 Speaker 2 ... yeah. So yeah, not, not, uh, not to go through the history and the, um, the stories of it, but so s- so zooming in now to the, to the point, um, the reason why, and, and I said this to you, uh, a few times on the phone when I pitched this idea to you. The reason why, why I felt that this would be such a, um, important and insightful conversation for everyone, for anyone to hear, not only people who, you know, Tiferes alumni or, um, or Baalei Teshuva bachal, is because what I see myself personally and from my friends, my group of friends, is that there's a rediscovery of chasidus that needs to happen and that happens. And some people, it happens in their twenties, and maybe some people it happens in their thirties, maybe some people, you know, it happens later in life and whatever. And, and, and it's, uh, it's-- and it doesn't have to be a one-time thing either. It could be a re-re-rediscovery. But what I realize is that this rediscovery is crucial, which means Davka, a guy who grew up in the, in the system and learned chasidus and, and understands chasidus, you know, and, uh, and, and has a kavuis at him, you know, is fully involved. Um, there's a certain point where something clicks, and whether it's a one-time thing or a gradual thing, and all of a sudden it's like, like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ah, this is what it's-- what chasidus is trying to tell me.

16:38 Speaker 2 This is what chasidus is about." Um, and it could happen, you know, generally in chasidus, it could happen specifically like, you know, the Rebbe's memoriam, Torah Or, you know, it could happen in a specific area within chasidus, or it could be about in general the inyanim of chasidus. And what I realized, I don't know, at one point was that there's probably, um, a parallel between the rediscovery that a regular anash, a regular, you know, Lubavitcher from birth has in chasidus to the dis- initial discovery that a either a Baal Teshuva or someone who's, uh, is a tog komener, uh, to chasidus, chasidus Chabad. There's probably a parallel and there's probably a lot of insight into how that process should and could work to the, you know, the evidence of how it works. And you have, you know, uh, over twenty years of experience, I'm sure having dealt with hundreds, I don't know, I'm not... You know, maybe thousands, whatever it is, of people who've had this experience, and you've guided them, and you've seen their progress, you've seen their growth. You didn't-- It's not, you're not a guest mashpia coming, giving a one-time shiur and, you know, inspiring the masses. You're, you know, holding their hand, bringing them through the process, and I think that's where-- That's, that's what I wanna discuss with you today. That's the general idea. Um, what-- So let's start with the, the first question I guess would be: How do you... The first question is a little bit of a

17:58 Speaker 2 different angle, which is: How do you start off someone, a Baal Teshuva, with, you know, or, or meaning someone who's in Tiferes? Uh, how do you start them off with learning chasidus? Which means that, uh, I mean, if you want, you could start, you could go through b- even the technical things of like which seforim and, and what to learn. But that's-- A- and there's letters of the Rebbe about that, you know, and Obviously, feel free to share that, but more than just what to learn, I'm asking also specifically because there's so many... When I learned Chassidus, I realized that there's so many premises that like are-- that this vart in Chassidus, and, and I'll start with... I'll, I'll use an easy example of Achdus Hashem, which is obviously a fundamental topic of Chassidus. Achdus Hashem in Chassidus is predicated on the Hashkafos of Ani Maamin or Ikhves, whatever, the basics of Yiddishkeit. Here, you're dealing with someone who doesn't have that, so nothing wrong with learning that from Chassidus. I'm not asking if you need to learn, uh, Ani Maamin before learning Chassidus. I'm sure you could get those same Hanakos from Shaarei Haminim or whatever it is. But what is your experience in seeing people either struggle or be fascinated with these Yesodis as they're learning Chassidus? That's, that's the first question.

19:05 Speaker 1 I remember when I first started my first year teaching over here, Rav Levinsky approached me at one point and told me, with the Baalei Teshuva, he was talking then about Nigla, but the same is true for Chassidus. You can't sell them fluff words. You have to talk Emes. It has to be something which resonates. In other words, you were speaking about a reawakening. Why do you need a reawakening in the first place? Because things become rote. You have certain words which become buzzwords.

19:42 Speaker 2 Right.

19:43 Speaker 1 That's just... Yeah, you heard a word, and you throw it in. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's Chesed, whether it's Atzilus, whether it's Akh-- What-whatever it is that you're talking about, and the same is true in Nigla wh-when learning in Yeshiva. So I think it's different now. But the concept of skills, which is something which Tferes focuses on a lot, the main difference of Tferes from Temchei Temimim, the starkest difference, I think, is the focus on skills and a skill-based gradual building up. In other words, you're focusing on how to learn and how to identify words and how to identify concepts, how to translate ideas, how to fit them in. That's why there becomes an obsession in learning Chassidus with a map sometimes. Like, where does this fit? Where does this go? Where are the Zion Rekiem in comparison to the Daldelemus, and so on and so forth. Because y-you're trying to make things make sense in a real way. When you're learning in, in y-y-in a regular Yeshiva, the way that, uh, I learned when I was in Yeshiva, you never learned skills in gr- in learning Gemara. On the contrary, if you opened up an article, Gemara, that was something which was frowned upon. You had to do it Bechad Yechadim. If you wanted to be able to have skills, it, it, it's something which you had to pick up by osmosis. So the Rosh Yeshiva sits down, and he gives a share, and he starts talking to you about Zika.

21:22 Speaker 1 You have no idea what Zika is and where did Zika come in, and Zika is just being thrown around with Lamdus of Zika and with ideas of Zika. Wh-what's Zika? Zika's a, a, a virus from, from, from, from mosquitoes. Wh-wh-where, where is Zika? And that's how you become introduced to Zika, and then Zika just becomes a buzzword. And if it has a translation and a true meaning, what it is and how it fits and wh-- it's something which often you end up skipping over. And the same thing happens when you're growing up with Chassidus, and there are words which are thrown around from very young, and those words become just buzzwords which... They're just... They're thrown at you. So you could sit and give a share, and you could start throwing out certain Lamdusher terms. It's a Gavrah Tzechafzah, or you could start throwing out certain Chassidus words, um, and it, it automatically is something which fits, and you listen to it, and you, you shake your head because you're familiar with the words in a general sense, but they don't have that real personal meaning to you.

22:38 Speaker 2 Right.

22:39 Speaker 1 The concept of a reawakening is where it becomes something which is real in my life, similar to the way that I told you when I was younger, and I was learning Sichos, and the Sichos just like... It wasn't just repeating a concept which I heard a million times. It was something which was, "Wow, this is a way to look at it. This is a way to think about it. This is a way to approach it."

23:11 Speaker 2 Right.

23:12 Speaker 1 When you're sitting down with Baalei Teshuva, that's where you're starting from. You're starting from that point where it's something which it has to resonate, and it has to feel that, like, it makes sense in my own Sechel, in my own Weltanschauung and the way that I'm seeing the world. This has to fit in somewhere in my world, in my reality, because it's coming from a foreign place. And if it's just a foreign language and just foreign concepts, then how is it gonna mean something to me personally?

23:50 Speaker 2 Right.

23:52 Speaker 1 You're sitting down in a Chassidus share with a person who never learned Chassidus before. You're learning Tanya. Just to say the words of Tanya isn't going to work. Lessons in Tanya is amazing, and I find that for learning Tanya, there's a lot of English books which are out there now. It's the most authentic, and the, the, it, it covers the most in covering Tanya. But so many, um, Baalei Teshuva particularly, which is why so many English books have come out, and others also, that they open up a lessons in Tanya, they have trouble with it. Why do they have trouble with it? Because the words are speaking with an underlying Hanaka. And if you don't have that Hanaka, then it's difficult to connect to those words. So you need something else to bring it home. The, the words of Tanya, if you're teaching to someone who never learned Chassidus before, they have to be something which connect. Wh-wh-when I started learning Chassidus-

25:15 Speaker 2 Yeah, one second. Can you just, uh, spell that out? So w-what is that hanacha that you ha- that you're talking about? Like, how, how do you spell it out that, uh, when you're, the-- you said that they have... When they're reading the lessons in Tanya, you mean even in English?

25:26 Speaker 1 Even in English.

25:27 Speaker 2 Right, yeah, exactly. There's a certain hanacha.

25:28 Speaker 1 I, I-

25:28 Speaker 2 What's that hanacha?

25:29 Speaker 1 The, it's, it's a hanacha of the, the, the, there is the, the, the concepts, the underlying ideas that they're ones which are real to the person, and now you're coming and explaining how this fits and how that fits, what this means and what that means.

25:52 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

25:54 Speaker 1 There are seforim which they go and they, they, they translate it in a different ayin, and they don't have necessarily the, the, the, the fantastic authenticity that Lessons in Tanya have, has.

26:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

26:16 Speaker 1 But they resonate more with the reader.

26:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

26:19 Speaker 1 Now, when they're coming and bringing it too far away from Chassidus and too far out into, uh, whatever it may be, the world of psychology or the world of emotions or whatever it is, then you're losing the Chassidus part of it.

26:38 Speaker 2 Right.

26:38 Speaker 1 But when you're able to plug the two together, when you're able to open up a Lessons in Tanya and read it in a way that this is something which isn't just a topic and a subject in front of me, it's something which is real and true on every level and in every space. It's something which is relevant, obviously, in my interpersonal relationships. It's something which is relevant in my, uh, business life. It's something which is relevant in my happiness and my joy, and it's something which is relevant in my Avodas Hashem. It's something which is a, i-i-it's, it's truth, and if it's truth, it's true in Peshat, in Remez, in Drash and in Sod. If it's true, it permeates everything, and it goes through every single level. That's where it, it captures anyone who's listening to it and pulls them in and makes them feel excited on a whole different level.

27:48 Speaker 2 Right. So th-um, so that bridge of the authenticity of, that you get, let's say, from Lessons in Tanya, um, with the, the relevance, I guess, of, of, um, of other words, I'm assuming for a beginner in, in, in Tiferes or really anywhere, it would be the teacher, the mag- the mashpia. Um, but then as they continue, and I mean, even let's say within the seminar, I'm sure that you're also trying to help them, m-m-m- obviously, you're trying to help them that they should be able to do that by, on their own also.

28:21 Speaker 1 That's the most important thing i-in the three years, a talmid that stays here for three years. In the three years that a talmid is here, we want to be able to infuse them with the skills that a, uh, bachur gets growing up in cheder and in mesivta and in zal.

28:45 Speaker 2 Well, hopefully. That's what we're gonna get back to, but, uh

28:47 Speaker 1 But that-

28:48 Speaker 2 Yeah

28:48 Speaker 1 ... that's what we're trying to build.

28:49 Speaker 2 Sure, yeah.

28:50 Speaker 1 And a lot of those things, like I said earlier, they come in by osmosis, and they just, uh, you just have it. And over here, you're trying to infuse it within that short period of time and make sure that it becomes as integrated as possible, and Baruch Hashem.

29:05 Speaker 2 So that's how I'd like to know how you do that. So how, how, how would you help a... Again, besides for in, in a share, that's, that's, obviously, that's up to the mashpia, the magid shiur to, you know, to have the clarity and to be able to, um, you know, carry over the, the au-authentic words into real life, for sure. But then how would you give an example of, of helping a bachur learning Tanya on his own, maybe, maybe trying it for the first time? Obviously, not day one and maybe not even month one of being there. But eventually, how would, uh, how would that process look of helping someone do it by their own, on their own?

29:37 Speaker 1 So there's two parts of it. There's the ideas, and there's the practical skills of reading and translating and all that.

29:44 Speaker 2 Right.

29:45 Speaker 1 The-

29:45 Speaker 2 So I'm not talking about the, the, the, the reading and translating. I'm talking about the, this nekuda of the-

29:50 Speaker 1 Right.

29:50 Speaker 2 Right.

29:50 Speaker 1 The, the, but the Tiferes is built to be able to give all of that.

29:54 Speaker 2 Sure, sure.

29:55 Speaker 1 The general way that Tiferes succeeds is through a total immersion process.

30:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

30:01 Speaker 1 That even a student that comes from college for a single Shabbos-

30:06 Speaker 2 Right

30:06 Speaker 1 ... as we have all the time, that there's a student which is coming, whether by himself or with a shliach, he st- spends one Shabbos in Tiferes, but it's an entirely different experience than he has in his Chabad house.

30:18 Speaker 2 Right.

30:19 Speaker 1 Because when he's in his Chabad house, over there, it's, there's you, your life, your world, and Yiddishkeit. And when you come into the total immersion, they have to become one. We had a Shabbaton, um, with about 50 students from different colleges this past year. And so many of them are coming from Chabad houses where they're so close to the shluchim, and the shluchim are so ibgegebnen to them, spending so much time learning with them and, and, and doing various things with them. But when they came here for a Shabbos, it was their first time in their lives keeping Shabbos for a full Shabbos.

31:04 Speaker 2 Right.

31:04 Speaker 1 Because over here- The objective is that the, the, the way of the integrationism, it's like that with the other skills too to a certain degree, but the, the objective is that you're throwing yourself into yeshiva completely, and that's why what's accomplished in yeshiva, it's very difficult to accomplish that in the Chabad House because in the Chabad House it's very difficult to have a visitor, someone who's coming, a mikurv, be completely immersed. He's coming to the Chabad House, and the Chabad House is his spiritual center, but then he has so many other centers, and over here, this is your entire life.

31:46 Speaker 2 Right.

31:47 Speaker 1 And-

31:47 Speaker 2 Which is the whole, like, idea of temuktum in the first place.

31:49 Speaker 1 Correct.

31:49 Speaker 2 Right.

31:50 Speaker 1 And that's what has to happen with Chassidus as well, that the Chassidus has to become something which becomes completely integrated, completely like it describes in the beginning of Tanya, that it's completely surrounding the person, and it's completely inside of the person. It's in his And it's, it, in other words, it's completely captured inside of him, and it's also all, all around him. And when the ideas of Chassidus become relevant to the person in such a way, and he becomes connected to it, and obviously learning and hearing from the mashpiyim, from the shiurim, and so on and so forth, there's a structure of shiurim over here going from level to level, bringing the talmidim to, uh, from first being able to understand the basics to going further and being able to understand deeper ideas and further still until they're already analyzing it and understanding how they would go and present it and teach it to others.

32:52 Speaker 2 Right.

32:52 Speaker 1 In other words, it's something which is permeating them, And bederech mimeila, they're able to go out and then share it with others.

33:05 Speaker 2 Right.

33:05 Speaker 1 We have, uh, a- as an example, one of our alumni, Simcha Kanter in Chicago.

33:11 Speaker 2 Sure.

33:12 Speaker 1 So he has simply Chassidus-

33:14 Speaker 2 Yeah

33:15 Speaker 1 ... which is where he goes and takes my Maram and breaks it apart into, uh, uh, uh, uh, sections that anyone could sit down and read and understand and see the questions, the answers, where they're coming from, and relate to the ideas and bring it home. This is what happens when you approach Chassidus in such a way, and you had to go and break it down in such a fashion. Then bederech mimeila, you're able to go and help others also, and that's why so many of our alumni, Baruch Hashem, are teaching in various places to others, whether they're business people, whether they're doctors or lawyers, whether they're shluchim, but they're teaching to others and bringing the Chassidus the way that they learned it here and the way that they connected, uh, to it over here to others as well.

34:08 Speaker 2 Right. So if I had to, um, it sounds like the key of, of the success ultimately, besides for the introduction of the, in- well, introduction and throughout of the mashpiyim, and like you said, there's different levels of shiurim, and it's, and it's progression, and it's carefully monitored, I'm sure, um, and there's skills like you mentioned. But besides for that, because that's still all the teacher, it sounds like ultimately the key that you're, um, zooming in on is the immersion. Um, you know, you spoke about that in terms of, like, just the general experience of, of Yiddishkeit and then ob- same thing in, within Chassidus, that the immersion in it, you, you start re- uh, the, I, I s- the immersion of it within the framework of it being relevant and within the framework-

34:52 Speaker 1 Right

34:52 Speaker 2 ... of it being-

34:53 Speaker 1 Emes.

34:53 Speaker 2 Emes, yeah. That's-

34:55 Speaker 1 Emes from alef to tav.

34:56 Speaker 2 Right. Um, so the, the, so the immersion within that framework is ultimately what makes it click and, and, you know, with the skills that are being, um, advanced, et cetera. So that's, that's interesting because technically, and in a way you mentioned this before, that's the way the regular system, so to speak, meaning someone who grows up Lubavitch or e- we could say the same thing in Nigla for, for, for someone who grows up Habad, but let's talk about Chassidus. Someone who grows up Habad, that's technically how it happens, how it's done also, which means, you know, you start learning Tanya, whatever age, um, and then you advance to

35:50 Speaker 1 The disconnect-

35:51 Speaker 2 Oh, right. This is what we're gonna get to. Right.

35:53 Speaker 1 The disconnect is where things just skim off the surface, and it just becomes, like I said earlier, a buzzword.

36:04 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:05 Speaker 1 And it doesn't become something which is real. If I were to go back to the idea, the, the example I gave earlier of reading lessons in Tanya, you could read lessons in Tanya and go through lessons in Tanya and come out with just the wealth and breadth of Tanya, or you could read it and it's just words that don't really have any practical importance to me.

36:34 Speaker 2 Right.

36:35 Speaker 1 And it, it, it's not written in a way, that's what I was mentioning, that's gonna capture you and pull you in and automatically make it relevant to you. That's what yeshiva tries to do. That's what yeshiva tries to accomplish. But the, uh, uh, w- the, the content is there. The teichen is there, and the concept that you mentioned earlier of a reawakening is where it suddenly clicks and says, "Wow, this is what I've been holding onto. I'm holding a suitcase of diamonds." And I, I'm just looking at the externality of it. I'm just looking at the fact that it's a suitcase of vinyl, and that's all beat up outside.

37:20 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So, um, uh, something that maybe clicked while you were saying that is that it's almost like, you know, the, um, going through the system and learning Chassidus, and then the-- f-seeing this stage of where people start feeling like, not even neg-- chas v'Shalom, not negative feeling, chas v'Shalom. And again, you know, people learn Chassidus all the time, but feeling, I guess, disconnected is the, is the word they use, probably the best word. So in-- So it's almost like I w-- I'm think-- I'm coming to-- I'm coming... think of it as a negative thing, and then, like, how do we, um, stop that? Not stop that, but how do we prevent that from happening? How do we solve that issue? Um, f-what I'm g-- what I'm understanding now, based on what you're saying, is that it's not... No, it doesn't mean that there was a problem. That's part of the process, and the same way that, uh-

38:18 Speaker 1 The baal teshuva.

38:19 Speaker 2 Well, same with baal teshuva, but yeah, and also the same way that y-that this bachur or this younger man was taught Chassidus and introduced to it for the first time. Uh, let, let's use an example.

38:29 Speaker 1 If he wouldn't have what he was given in his childhood, then he wouldn't be able to accomplish what he's accomplishing now.

38:36 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, right.

38:37 Speaker 1 I may not have been taught certain skills and certain... But if I wouldn't have been given the framework of chinuch that I was given, then it would have made it very difficult for me to suddenly dive into the Gemara later on in life and see it and understand it and appreciate it the way that I do.

38:56 Speaker 2 Right.

38:57 Speaker 1 And it's the same thing with Chassidus as well, that the framework which children are being given in the chinuch process is something which is allowing them, it's giving them that immersion, which is allowing them to have-- to open up later and say, "Wow, this is what I'm holding on to."

39:19 Speaker 2 Right.

39:20 Speaker 1 "This is what I have." Obviously, you want to try and avoid making it something which is too easy to skim off the surface, which is too easy to not penetrate. You wanna try to make it as relatable and as absorbable as possible, but it's there, and it's what we're-- it's definitely what we are giving. The, the, the system definitely has it inside.

39:50 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. That's, that's, that's a very... Well, first of all, positive outlook, but, uh, also a very beautiful outlook. Like, uh, let, let, let's, let's... I, I wanna break that down, what you're saying. So let's use an example of a topic in Chassidus, and obviously, I'm, I'm, you know... Let's say makif hampnimy, right? The concept of makif hampnimy. So you're-- let's say you're first introduced to it, and again, I'm talking about a regular-- a guy growing up from growing up Lubavitch. So you're introduced to it, I don't know, let's say in, um, you know, Tanya perek daled heh. You mentioned before about toirah being, uh, lavosh and mazon. So you're introduced to the concept of makif hampnimy, let's say, shaar m'siftah, right? And you, uh, w-whether your mashpia, like, fully, you know, spent time on a tangent explaining the whole concept of what makif hampnimy is with some examples or not, or he just gave a basic, you know, basic type/ch-- uh, explanation of what makif hampnimy is. But you were just introduced to the concept of makif hampnimy. Now, you hear the words makif hampnimy hundreds of times. Then you get to zal. N-now, do, do you know what makif hampnimy is? Probably not, really. Uh, like, you know, especially those are essentially, especially makif, davar this, and it's makif, right? So it's, like, ethereal. Um, then you, then you enter zal and, you know... Whatever. Again, I'm just... And then you, uh, you, you're learning a hemshech somewhere, and the, the whole topic

41:09 Speaker 2 is makif hampnimy. So all of a sudden, now you have much more of a-- you're, like, focused on makif hampnimy, and all of a sudden, you start understanding things, and you're, like, realizing a lot is clicking in, in all your-- everything you learned as, as you're n-now understanding more-- better what makif hampnimy is. So that process can now continue. So when you're, you know, a yungerman learning Chassidus randomly by yourself, and, like, you're skimming through the Kuntress, whatever it is, and it's makif hampnimy, makif hampnimy, and all of a sudden, one day, maybe it hits you that, like: "Hey, what-- like, I don't-- like, what is that?" Like, my brain... That's not-- That rediscovery that you force yourself to, it's not-- It's, it's, it's-- not only it's not a negative, um, but it's, it's exactly what-

41:46 Speaker 1 It's part of the process.

41:47 Speaker 2 Right. And it's a-- it's, in, in a way, it's almost a repeat of what happened originally, just now on a deeper level because you're a deeper person now 'cause you're older.

41:54 Speaker 1 But let's take the word makif itself.

41:56 Speaker 2 Right.

41:57 Speaker 1 So there are many places in Chassidus from all of the Rebbeim where it repeats, like, over and over again. In other words, it doesn't rely on the fact that it's said it once already. It repeats it again, that makif doesn't mean surrounding from the outside.

42:12 Speaker 2 Right.

42:13 Speaker 1 That makif means that it's not aras bekelim. It's in the inside, but it's not being translated through a keli-- a keli. It's not being broadcast through a keli. Why does Chassidus have to repeat it over and over again? Because the way that we naturally will see this word is that makif means surrounding. But you need to use the word makif, which means surrounding, and it, its initial way of understanding it means from the outside, in order to be able to bring across what makif is. You're not gonna get to makif without a word makif, which means something which isn't really translated literally into what, what it's supposed to mean.

43:03 Speaker 2 Right.

43:03 Speaker 1 And even though you're gonna read it once in a maamer, it's not gonna help because you're still gonna tend back to what the normal translation might be. You're gonna need it to be repeated again, and then in a new maamer, and then in a... And each time you're coming across it, you have to stop and remember what makif really is and what its application is, and you have to reignite- Reawaken and rediscover on a whole new level the, the concept of makif.

43:37 Speaker 2 Right.

43:37 Speaker 1 And each time you rediscover it, there's a new light bulb that, that, that comes up, a new, "Aha, wow, this is what it means, and this is where it's relevant in my life." This is part of the process, without any question. And when you're starting, Baruch Hashem, with someone who is growing up frum, who did grow up in a frum home, and then w- w- was zecher to go to cheder and tishrei, there's going to be the repetition of these things, and there's going to be the falling back on the, the, less, the, the, the more literal meaning of it-

44:15 Speaker 2 Right

44:15 Speaker 1 ... and the less, um, practical, the less real meaning of it, and there's going to have to be each, at each stage of my discovery, of my growth, of my, uh, avoda, that I'm going to come up and say, "Aha, now I, I, I get it." And then tomorrow to say, "Yesterday I had no idea. Now I'm getting it."

44:39 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah, that's, um, I mean, first of all, just on a technical level, is that, is that like the process of Hasagas HaShlilah we described? Like, like the fact that makif, uh, is originally assumed to mean something and, and, and we, and we, and we're supposed to take it like that, and then realize that no, it's not that. Is that, is that what Hasagas HaShlilah technically is?

45:02 Speaker 1 W- Hasagas HaShlilah itself is because there's something which is totally beyond our comprehension.

45:08 Speaker 2 Right.

45:08 Speaker 1 We're talking about things which are within our comprehension, but even within our comprehension, th- we can't necessarily... I- it- it's not just two plus two is four. It's not something which that's where it is, and that's where it stays. It's something which grows and develops with me.

45:30 Speaker 2 Right. Well, a- and I'm assuming that's what makif is, basically.

45:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:33 Speaker 2 Makif is probably one of the best examples for that.

45:34 Speaker 1 But, but pl- but plnimus is the same thing. It's just on a different level.

45:38 Speaker 2 Ah, ah.

45:38 Speaker 1 In other words, when you come to plnimus, even though I was describing it in makif, 'cause makif is something that you see the chassidis has to go and repeat it again.

45:45 Speaker 2 Right.

45:45 Speaker 1 Like, like other things where you see that it's... But the plnimus is also the same thing, and the way that I relate to plnimus today is not the way that I relate to plnimus tomorrow. And when I appreciate it on a new level, and I'm able to work with it in my avodas Hashem on a new level, and I'm able to grow with it, with me as I grow, that it should grow too, then it becomes something new on a whole new, on, on, on a whole new space, on a whole new level. That's why every single time we learn a Gemara, every s-single time we learn a blad Gemara, it's brand new and we see in it and we appreciate in it, and that's because it is terech chayim, because it's alive.

46:28 Speaker 2 Dynamic.

46:29 Speaker 1 It's, it's not something which is just two-dimensional.

46:32 Speaker 2 Right. So as you were starting to explain this idea of in makif, about that it's, that it's not, it is on the inside, but it's not, uh, it's b'chelom. So as you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, you know, it would be fascinating if you could, um, do, like, a mock tferes. In other words, like, how would you, how would you say that to a tferes bachur?

46:54 Speaker 1 So I... It's something which I have to explain often.

46:57 Speaker 2 Right. Probably.

46:57 Speaker 1 And wi- with regards to the idea of makif, so one example that I give is that you have radio waves that are right here, right now. V'chulu v'chulu, many, many other waves. But without a radio that's tuned into this specific channel and the, the, the exact keli, it's not being broadcast. And Baruch Hashem, you don't hear all of it, and you don't, because that would make a person go crazy. In other words, the makif doesn't mean that it's not here. The makif means that it's not being, it, it's not being published. It's not being expressed. It's not finding its ability to be able to have the hagbala of getting expressed. Now, the difference between makif and a radio wave is that makif usually in chassidus, even though it's not always, but usually in chassidus, makif is something which is properly makif, and it can never be expressed.

47:57 Speaker 2 Oh, right. Mm-hmm.

47:57 Speaker 1 And over here, it's something which technically can be expressed if you have the right keli.

48:01 Speaker 2 Right.

48:02 Speaker 1 But the idea is there nevertheless, uh, that there are other, uh, mashalim that I give. Anytime you walk into a chassidus class, especially a beginner's chassidus class, um, the key is, uh, and this is what we've been saying the whole time, basically, the key is to using various mashalim to help it become an idea which is emes, an idea which is... It, it resonates, and it's, it, it, it's, "Wow, yeah, that's clear. That's obvious."

48:35 Speaker 2 Right.

48:35 Speaker 1 That, that, that's, that's something which just makes sense. It's not a deep philosophical idea. It's an idea which is, uh, something which I see all around me at all times.

48:47 Speaker 2 Right. What... Can you, uh, give some examples of, like, when, when you see a clicking by a bachur? Like, I, I, I mean, it could be a story per se, obviously, you know. I don't know if you wanna go into the specific, uh, stories, but what would be... I'm talking chassidus specifically, not Yiddishkeit in general and, and, or Gemara. But w- what does it look like when a person connects to chassidus, connects to the ideas of chassidus? Again, beyond Yiddishkeit in general. How does that, how does that look?

49:24 Speaker 1 So first of all, usually it looks like a smile.

49:27 Speaker 2 Okay. That's good.

49:28 Speaker 1 When you see someone sitting in class, and this could happen the very first time they're ever learning any type of chassidus-

49:35 Speaker 2 Right

49:35 Speaker 1 ... and it happens sometimes like that. When you see someone sitting in class and there's just a smile on his face-

49:43 Speaker 2 Right

49:43 Speaker 1 ... you know that you're connecting, you know that you're, you're reaching him.

49:49 Speaker 2 Right.

49:49 Speaker 1 Now, obviously, in the development of a Talmud and tferes, so it is something which becomes clear as you see that Talmud growing in his chassidishkeit, in his hanhaga, in his, um, relationships to others, v'chulu, and you see that chassidus is becoming part of his life. But that smile is where first see the click.

50:16 Speaker 2 Right.

50:17 Speaker 1 It means, yeah, y- you're reaching him. The smile means, "Wow, this is real."

50:25 Speaker 2 Right.

50:25 Speaker 1 "This is obvious."

50:26 Speaker 2 But, but I'm sure that could, that could just push back. I'm sure that could happen technically in a class about, I don't know, about, uh, Shabbos. I don't know. Like, teaching about Shabbos or teach- Like, meaning is that, is that something specific about Chassidus?

50:39 Speaker 1 Of, of course.

50:39 Speaker 2 Like, Yiddishkeit in general? I, I

50:41 Speaker 1 Of course it could.

50:43 Speaker 2 Right.

50:43 Speaker 1 But when you're teaching Halcha Shabbos, there isn't, um, uh, often -

50:53 Speaker 2 Right. Halcha Shabbos, Shabbos is definitely not a good example for that

50:55 Speaker 1 ... that kind of reaction.

50:56 Speaker 2 Right.

50:56 Speaker 1 Um, but i- if you're working on a difficult question in Tosfos and-

51:03 Speaker 2 Yeah

51:03 Speaker 1 ... you understand the answer, so there's what's called the eureka moment where a person says, "Wow." There's a, the, a thrill like Chassidus describes in Konchos Amaim and other places, the e- e- the excitement of appreciating a deep concept, a deep idea, that it's something which transforms me from the inside, and there definitely is that thrill, that, that, that simcha, that, um, uh, taanug-

51:36 Speaker 2 Right

51:36 Speaker 1 ... which is the deepest taanug that a human being can experience. Now, in Chassidus, the difference is that it's not just a concept, it's life.

51:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

51:49 Speaker 1 It's not just an answer to a question in Tosfos. It's, i- it's the pnimius of Torah, and it's touches a person in a different way.

52:00 Speaker 2 Right. So I guess, like, I guess what you're saying is that you could see if the smile is just coming from an intellectual taanug versus a taanug of, of nefesh, of, uh-

52:11 Speaker 1 Sometimes

52:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Um, I-

52:15 Speaker 1 I don't necessarily have that havchana

52:18 Speaker 2 Right. Saying sometimes it comes out, like, uh-

52:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

52:20 Speaker 2 ... yeah. Uh-huh. Um, I, I, obviously the reason why I'm, I, I wanna know that is, uh, and I think it's obviously in the context of this conversation, that it's not a, it's not a, a, you know, a, a documentary or whatever about deferes, obviously. It's, it's because, um, we wanna know this for ourselves. You know, like, like, um, we... Uh, maybe specifically when we learn so much Chassidus, you know, talking about the immersion before. You know, like, uh, uh, I don't know who discovered water, but it wasn't a fish, right? Like, uh, um, the, the maybe dafka sometimes when we're so immersed in something is when we feel that we're not, we're not able to tell what it did or what it was. Um, you know, like the Chassidim were always called the Freilecher, right? So in the first generation, l- there w- people probably appreciated that more, and maybe that's even when it was used more because, like, you had this, you know, Ivui from Vitebsk or whatever it was that was, uh, part... I mean, not part, but, like, you know, he was a serious Chayseilos, you know, learning Gemara all day, and then you learn Chassidus and you saw it became a f-

53:34 Speaker 1 The contrast was much more stark.

53:35 Speaker 2 Correct. Right. Um, maybe in later generations, I'm saying even in, in Telshe, Mirash, et cetera, maybe, I don't know, I'm not saying this historically, but maybe, like, that wasn't even necessarily the, the benchmark of the Chassidim or the Freilecher because, like, they grew up with Chassidus. They were always Chassidim. Um, yeah, whatever. Again, historically, technically those, in those generations they only started learning Chassidus usually after their chasuna. Fine, whatever.

54:00 Speaker 1 Right.

54:00 Speaker 2 But definitely Temchetimim-

54:01 Speaker 1 But, but-

54:02 Speaker 2 ... you know, post that generation where we're, we're growing up with it literally. So that's why I think that question is so valid and so important of how do we check in with ourselves to see that, that we got the Chassidus in? You know, uh, o- one thing you said, which is that you see that he's living on a Chassidish, more Chassidish halachas and such are fine. That's for sure a very clear benchmark because it translates to Havdalah, and I'm not negating that.

54:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, but that, that happens almost easier-

54:30 Speaker 2 Right. Because it-

54:31 Speaker 1 ... because that could be more makif.

54:33 Speaker 2 What could be more makif? Than hagos?

54:34 Speaker 1 Than, than hagos.

54:35 Speaker 2 Ah. Okay, fine. I understand. Fine.

54:38 Speaker 1 The, if you want the answer to that question, I think it's the taanug.

54:43 Speaker 2 Right.

54:44 Speaker 1 If a person sits down and learns a Maamar, and he feels, "Wow." He feels a, a certain taanug. That taanug is something which shows that it's not something that you're just learning, it's something you're connecting to.

55:01 Speaker 2 Right. Wow. Okay . So this is, uh, this is definitely a, a feeling like that for me. Like, uh, I'm saying that, that, uh, kinda aha, um, idea. Um, I guess, like... Let's wrap it up also because we have a, we have a hard end time. Um, I guess the question, like, to wrap it up is how... For a regular person learning Chassidus, what's the balance between learning Chassidus, like, in the immersion style so to speak, versus stopping to make sure, like, you, you understand those terms? Like, like, l- let's use that example before, makif hapnimiu, right? So you're learning makif hapnimiu, you know, learning So what's the balance or maybe what are the telltale signs when it's necessary to, to, I guess, rediscover, that's the word we're using, um, because you can't always do that. You need to learn. That's, that's immersion. So what's, what's, uh, what's the balance for that?

56:21 Speaker 1 So, so this always accepts, ex- ex- expects a b'chen from us. The b'chen doesn't have to be from the whole entire moment which I learned. It could be one b'chen. Ev-- uh, almost every sicha, the Rebbe comes and the Rebbe brings a, the b'chen. And that b'chen sometimes is the most exciting part of the sicha, the most gishmeke part of the sicha, because it's the one where it's just like it's taking it and this is where we started and what we spoke about a number of times throughout. It's taking it through everything, right? It's, it's making it