להיות בינוני – הרב נפתלי זילברברג

00:00 Speaker 1 So I'm asking you a question. You always fast on Yom Kippur, right?

00:04 Speaker 2 Yes.

00:04 Speaker 1 Okay. Do, do you think next year you'll fast on Kippur?

00:06 Speaker 2 Yes.

00:07 Speaker 1 Oh, l'yavor.

00:09 Speaker 2 Right.

00:09 Speaker 1 Have said some... We have a l'yavor over here, right? You know?

00:11 Speaker 2 Right.

00:12 Speaker 1 How do you know? How do you know it's next year? And can you tell me that a million percent that you're gonna fast? No, you can't. You have bechir hachas.

00:17 Speaker 2 Right.

00:18 Speaker 1 But right now, Shmuel Wagner, Reb Shmuel Wagner, right? When it comes to that is l'yavor, l'yavor. How many other areas in their life-- in your life are there that are l'yavor, l'yavor? Now, what if I wanna start adding areas? That's a benimi area, and that's real. And that's something which is real. A benimi more, five minutes, boom. It's... It wasn't me, it was behavior.

00:36 Speaker 2 Um, the behavioral.

00:37 Speaker 1 And Tanya is about me. It's about transformation.

00:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. You know when you're at a good toychindike farbrengen and you wish it was being recorded? Welcome to Spreading the Springs: Conversations in Chassidus, a podcast farbrengen where we have real conversations about real Chassidus. Okay, welcome. We have in front of us Tanya. We have with us Rabbi Naftali Silberberg from, uh, Let's Talk Tanya fame. And the first thing I'm curious about is what got you into Tanya specifically. So howm- however much of your background and your history as a mashpia in general, um, you wanna go into and what would be relevant, but specifically, let's go straight to, um, how, how it related to you teaching Tanya.

01:33 Speaker 1 So I've told this story before, but back when I was a bachur, Tanya wasn't as popular as it is today. Baruch Hashem, today you see a new- a renewed chais in Tanya and all, and all segments of society within Lubavitch and Baruch Hashem also within those communities that, uh, don't yet identify themselves as Lubavitch. But when I was a bachur, a bachur learning L- um, Tanya was a strange thing. "But why aren't you learning some machlah? Like what's, uh... What, what are you losing Tanya?" But when I was around 18 years old, so I was learning that year in Chabad, and I decided I wanna learn Tanya. There was a certain bachur there, a shliach, a bachur shliach who had a koch in Tanya, had Rebbe's, um, tapes on Tanya typed up. It was written like, uh, like mimeograph, like typed up. I remember I borrowed them, and I started learning Tanya, and it interested me. But lchora, if it would've been just that, okay, so it would've been a passing fad as a bachur. I learned Tanya. I enjoyed Tanya. But then I started teaching Tanya. So at first I started teaching, I taught in Mesivta in Neve Yerushalayim. This is in the late, uh, 1990s. And it grew on me, and then I just started teaching Tanya in different places. I had this year in Flatbush that I started teaching. I started teaching, um... I don't even remember, a bunch of different places. And the one thing, the one thing I found is

02:55 Speaker 1 that there is no better way to learn Tanya than to teach Tanya. And when you teach, it, um, it really forces you to look at it and try to understand it in a different way. And like I said, there's this year that I had, um, in Flatbush for many years, every Thursday night teaching Tanya, and, and in that year, I actually finished the entire Tanya. I... There, there are probably parts of Kunta Sachar and maybe Igeres HaKodesh that till today I probably would not have learned well if not for the fact that I had to teach them. And so, so rewarding that I did teach them, and I learned them. And over the years, so the more I taught, the more I learned, the more I got into it, and it just, um, kind of, uh, became part of, uh, my identity to a certain extent.

03:39 Speaker 2 Right. And let's say let's skip ahead to the Let's Talk Tanya. So then how did that happen? Like, uh, was it your idea, somebody else's idea?

03:48 Speaker 1 It was my idea, but my idea was a very, a very simple idea which is that I've been teaching Tanya. I have a lot of different, uh, Tanya students. So for many years, I'm like, "Okay, so I should just make a voice note every single day and, uh, make a, make a WhatsApp group and send, uh, send to my students a short thought on, on the Tanya of the day." That was the thought. And I kept on pushing it off. This is like a... This, this thought came to me probably like, uh, I don't know, six years ago, seven years ago. So I pushed it off for two reasons. Um, the second reason why I pushed it off was because I, I, I wanted to wait till I actually finished teaching the entire Tanya, so I had like a grasp of the entire Tanya. Uh, the first reason was I was lazy. So and then-

04:29 Speaker 2 Atsas. Perek Alef.

04:31 Speaker 1 What?

04:31 Speaker 2 Atsas right there in Perek Alef.

04:32 Speaker 1 Perek Alef. Perek Chafuf. And then I decided, and I got a little push from someone, "You just have to do it. You just have to do it." So I actually started Let's Talk Tanya before I finished the entire Tanya. The, the... I mentioned it before, but the, the hardest pro-- the hardest perek of Tanya what's approaching actually right now in Chitas is the, the first perek of Kunta Sachar. I had not yet taught them, and I thought that by the time I get there, I would have, um, um, already taught them, but I didn't. So actually, the first perek of Kunta Sachar, I had to learn for, for Let's Talk Tanya before I ever taught them inside. Um, so the... So I decided, okay, so I'm gonna do a... I'll do a voice note every single day, and then someone said, uh, someone said or I thought, I'm like, "Okay, I know there are certain people who like to do, um, who like video." So I figured if that's the mitzvah is that some people like video, then it's silly to do it in a voice note and afterwards find out that people want video, and then you have to redo it again. "Well, 100 ways we'll do it in video." Okay. So I knew someone, um, a bachur over here, and I asked him if he can come and take some videos. So I, I did a few videos, and he sent them to me, and I was, I was horrified. It was so

05:36 Speaker 1 professional, and it's- ... it was not what I was looking... You have to realize I'm coming from a place where I'm sending a voice note to 70 people every single day, and suddenly professional video. I'm like, "No, we're not doing this. Forget about it." And, but I showed it to some people, and they're like, "Yeah, this is actually awesome. This is nice." Anyways, the funny thing is that those videos compared to what the product was at the end was actually much lower. We had to redo all those original videos 'cause we ended up doing it a much higher level quality, and it just took off in a, in a very, very crazy way. And, uh, it's a tremendous chass, not only in Lubavitch but also many communities outside Lubavitch, many people learning Tanya because of that. And then hopefully with other projects in, in this area.

06:15 Speaker 2 So, so two questions. One about skipping to the end about Let's Talk Tanya, one going back to as a mashpia. Let's start with the, with the end. When you had this idea to send a voice note of, uh, you, you said a, a th-thought of the daily Tanya, d-what, what was... what do you see the, the need as? Was it simply as a, a kitzur of the day's Tanya for people to push it, you know, just to have a kitzur on the Tanya, so whether it's, uh, someone who's not yet up to any chitas could hear just a kitzur, or someone who is on any chitas and wants to know what's the kitzur, you know. So similar to what you could find probably on, you know, chabad.org or probably other things, you know, written up maybe, uh, a kitzur on the Tanya. Or did you have in mind it shouldn't just be a kitzur, it should be like a thought on the Tanya? Meaning like either, let's say, how to make the, the, the, the point of Tanya practical on a, on a level or, uh, uh, explanation of one of the concepts in Tanya, um, on a, on a, a level. What, what was your first goal in Let's Talk Tanya?

07:12 Speaker 1 So that was a very long and thought out question. You're not gonna like my answer. I don't remember. I actually don't reme-- I remember I was gonna do a voice note, and what was the original kavana? I don't remember. It obviously evolved to what it is. I s- I actually don't remember-

07:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:25 Speaker 1 ... if I had that, uh, deeply thought out exactly what was going to be the specific niche in which I'm going to, uh, fit in.

07:33 Speaker 2 Right.

07:34 Speaker 1 I don't remember.

07:34 Speaker 2 And so in other words, was it even that you were looking for a niche, or was it like, "Yeah, why not? I teach Tanya. Let, let me do a kitzur on Tanya." Like-

07:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, probably that.

07:41 Speaker 2 So then it might've been more like a kitzur.

07:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. But I'd have to climb back into my head from five years ago, and, uh, Let's Talk Tanya's evolved since then, and, um-

07:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

07:49 Speaker 1 ... yeah.

07:50 Speaker 2 Okay. But okay, so th-then going back to when you were a mashpia teaching, when you started off in mesivta, and I'm assuming in mesivta already you taught Tanya. Actually, w-on that note, when you were a bachur in mesivta, did they learn Tanya? You were saying that, like, people were saying like, "Oh, mesivta didn't learn Tanya?"

08:07 Speaker 1 Mesivta learned Tanya, yeah.

08:08 Speaker 2 But that's it. Just mesivta.

08:09 Speaker 1 Just mesivta.

08:11 Speaker 2 Okay.

08:11 Speaker 1 And it was, um... And, and, and, and it's all-- And by the way, that has a certain stigma. It's something you learn in mesivta, and it's all we did, learn Tanya.

08:17 Speaker 2 I think it's still like that.

08:19 Speaker 1 Maybe.

08:19 Speaker 2 Uh, yeah. Uh-huh, okay. So when-

08:21 Speaker 1 A-a-and when I went there to yeshivas over there, you had, um, you had Rembel. Rembel for the first would give a share Tanya every single day at the end, the last, I don't know, maybe 15 minutes of the second Seder Nigleh. But when I got there already, he wasn't doing it anymore. Uh, that was . So that was, uh-

08:37 Speaker 2 No, it was his last year?

08:39 Speaker 1 Second to last year, yeah. But it was his last year for Chabad 'cause the next year he was ready. He was in England. He wasn't feeling well.

08:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:43 Speaker 1 Um, Rabbi Ginsberg out of Pinini HaTanya fame gave the share, but it wasn't-

08:48 Speaker 2 And still last 15 minutes of Seder Nigleh?

08:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:51 Speaker 2 That was it?

08:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:51 Speaker 2 Interesting. In, in town

08:53 Speaker 1 At 6:45 at night, something like that's right, yeah.

08:55 Speaker 2 Right. They, they used to have that... There's a whole of like back in Russia or Poland, that there was... You're aware of this? That there was a... Yeah, the, I heard the story. Um, but, but so when you c-became a, a mashpia in mesivta and you were teaching Tanya in mesivta, what did... So this is, this is, um, I guess the same type of question, but maybe as mashpia was stronger. What did you feel the, the l-- What did you feel that was lacking in the way Tanya was taught in... 'Cause in mesivtas it was being taught. Yeah, so start with that. How-- What, what did you feel was lacking in the way it was taught?

09:29 Speaker 1 So I-

09:29 Speaker 2 Especially from your

09:30 Speaker 1 as a bachur that you described. Right. So I feel that a lot of my answers are gonna disappoint you. I started teaching Tanya in mesivta at the grand old age of 21 years old, which itself, by the way, is a little of a commentary on how important Tanya is in the curriculum and the fact that you give it a 21-year-old bachur to teach it, as talented as he may be. Um, and I had one very, very clear goal, which is to control my class. Um, and that was it. And I... It took me years after that before, to really... I mean, as a bach-- When I started learning Tanya in the 18, 19, 20s, I was appreciating more the haskala of Tanya. And slowly but surely, you start realizing that this Tanya, which everyone, you know, study, you know, which you-- The haskala is what all I've been exposed to over these years, is actually very, very relevant to my life. But when I started teaching Tanya, I was not there yet. So I was, uh, definitely, uh, you know, very much in the, in the menucha, as they would say, right? And the, the yuchin and the haskala shabasa as opposed to the larger picture. By the way, the re-- the, the relevance emerges from the larger picture. It's, uh, part of the... 'Cause if you look at Tanya as, um, as actually as a program, and I don't wanna say these words, but it is. It's a whole self-help program. That's what it

10:47 Speaker 1 is. It's the... Which starts with perek alef and ends through perek lamed gimel. And, uh, if you're, you know, over-overly focused on any, uh, any single perek and just, okay, this, here is where it's at, and missing that this perek is part of a context, and it's really... It might be beautiful ideas, but it's one step in a larger program. But that took, uh, that took years.

11:06 Speaker 2 So when you started as a, as a young magid shiar mashpia, it was just the same, like the way you learned in yeshiva, like explain the deokim and make sure they understand the 15 taitchin of the word Tanya and, uh, and get to a certain point in Tanya by the end of the year.

11:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. But also, as you know, 'cause I believe I've spoken to, uh, off the record about this before, I, I question how much 14-year-old bachurim are able to anyways grasp the emotional depth of Tanya and the real relevance of Tanya. I don't know if they're mature enough at that point anyway, so I don't know if I did such a huge disservice to the bachurim I was teaching considering that... I don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very torn about that, about how Tanya should be taught to teenagers and at what age should they be exposed to it. And I recently, I had a thought that, uh, bachurim, younger bachurim, they should be learning Shaarei Chovot HaLevavot, not the Chayei Olam. By the way, I'm not saying kavod haiti and obviously, but there's, there's a svora in my head. What?

11:58 Speaker 2 From the, from the academic, uh, viewpoint of understanding Tanya, of knowing Tanya, this is... And, and knowing 14-year-olds.

12:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. 'Cause there's two... Tanya is made up of Shaarei Chovot HaLevavot, which is the theol-theology of Tanya, the philosophy of Tanya. And then there is, um, Kuntem Arum, which is, um, the practical relevance, Kikhar Velecha. And I believe that kids at a younger age are able to relate to the abstract philosophy or theology of Tanya at an earlier age than they're able to relate to the real, real-time, real-life issues that Tanya discusses in the Kuntem Arum.

12:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

12:30 Speaker 1 Which is a thought that came to me.

12:32 Speaker 2 And what about that Avoda? Uh, what's...

12:36 Speaker 1 What do you mean by that?

12:36 Speaker 2 How are they, how are they not gonna get that Avoda from Tanya?

12:39 Speaker 1 Maybe, maybe a little, a l- a little later in life.

12:43 Speaker 2 But they're living through life already then. Like, uh-

12:45 Speaker 1 To put it in different w- in different words. Uh, okay. So yeah, they're living through life then, but to, to take them... I don't know, maybe, maybe, maybe, yeah. But to take Tanya to make it relevant to their lives, maybe it takes someone who's greater than, than me or b- a better Mechana than me, such as someone, such as you. Um, the idea of Hisabos to me this, right? The idea of Yichudila, Yichud... That's all the ideas discussed in Sheyichud VaMuna. That's something a 14-year-old can understand and can understand this well as I could understand 'cause it doesn't require an incredible amount of, of depth.

13:18 Speaker 2 You're saying a personal depth of like a-

13:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, and being in touch with yourself really-

13:22 Speaker 2 Self-awareness

13:22 Speaker 1 ...in a deep way. Yeah, self-awareness, yeah.

13:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:25 Speaker 1 But the Kuntem Arum is a different, uh, is a different story. It's all about the struggle. It's all about what's going on inside of you and, and it, it requires a certain amount of, uh...

13:33 Speaker 2 So, I, I mean, tell me if this is what you're thinking. I, I, and we're not-- I don't wanna turn this into a Chinuch thing, for sure not, and definitely not like how to structure a Mesivta. But, um, theoretically, like let's say theoretically, if you were explaining this con-- this idea, this pitch. So you're not saying that of course a bachur should learn, young bachur should learn Chassidis, Avoda, just maybe, I don't know, Kuntess Avoda, maybe whatever, 50 Kasim, we're saying something like that.

13:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:56 Speaker 2 Fine. So that, that's what I thought you would say.

13:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

13:59 Speaker 2 But what about the element of Tanya being Torah SheBeChsav? Does that mean in the sense of... Like let, let, let's, let's compare it to Nigla for a second. In Nigla, you can't learn Gemara if you don't know Chumash, at least the relevant parts of Chumash that you're ta- that you're learning about in Gemara. Um, so when we call, and you'll, you'll tell me who it's from, the, the Vart that Tanya is Torah SheBeChsav of Chassidis. Chassidim? They're-

14:23 Speaker 1 I think so.

14:24 Speaker 2 But, uh-

14:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's from the Friediker, but I'm not sure.

14:25 Speaker 2 From the Friediker, okay.

14:26 Speaker 1 I think so.

14:26 Speaker 2 So, so this Vart that... Which yeah, for sure the Rebbe quotes a lot. It's a real Vart, that Ta- Tanya is Torah SheBeChsav of Chassidis. Does it mean in that sense also that it's the building blocks, that you can't go learn another Vart of Chassidis if you don't have the basic awareness of, I don't know, let's say, uh, Nesher Kesher, Nesher Bahamis and the struggle? Or no, or Tanya meaning Torah SheBeChsav, is that like you could b- boil everything back down to Tanya and reverse engineer and find it hinted out in Tanya, like that kind of meaning of Torah SheBeChsav. But yeah, you, you could learn, you could start learning Avoda in, in other places. Well, how, how would you think, like?

15:01 Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know. But, um, one thing is for sure, that if you look in the letters from the Rebbe, whenever the Rebbe spoke to people Basayan from Tanya, it was never started, never with Kuntem Arum. And there are quite a few letters about this starting either, either with Shaarei Yichud Muna, and then moving on to Igar Zechuva, and then the Kuntem Arum, or sometimes the cl-- um, um, Igar Zechuva first, then Shaarei Yichud Muna. And which is very interesting, even for adults.

15:23 Speaker 2 That's, that's very interesting.

15:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:24 Speaker 2 So then why take it? Why-

15:26 Speaker 1 I don't know.

15:27 Speaker 2 So-

15:27 Speaker 1 I don't know

15:27 Speaker 2 ... so you think that this is really the way it should be done, or it was like-

15:31 Speaker 1 I'm telling you, this was the, the, the... There are quite a few letters, people who started from Chassidis and asked about learning Tanya, and which to me is a little interesting. In other words, because you would think that the Avoda come before the Haskala.

15:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:42 Speaker 1 But, um-

15:44 Speaker 2 And is that what you think it is? That, that the reason why the Rebbe's saying to start with Shaarei Yichud Muna, you think it's 'cause the Haskala's come before the Avoda or a different reason?

15:52 Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know.

15:54 Speaker 2 None of the re- the letters seem to give a reason?

15:58 Speaker 1 I don't remember. Nothing stuck out at me from those letters.

16:04 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

16:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:05 Speaker 2 So yeah. So let's, let's, let's-

16:06 Speaker 1 Right

16:06 Speaker 2 ... let's, uh, track it back. So you learned Tanya as a bachur. You got very farkacht in like what you missed out on, um, in Mesivta, what you didn't, what you didn't get to appreciate in Mesivta. So you, you started teaching Tanya, but you, uh, started repeating the vicious cycle of, of, uh, you know, Mashpiyim doing what they were... did in Mesivta, in Yeshiva. And, um, then you advanced to starting to teach Tanya and maybe on a more real level, I would say, to real audiences as opposed to bachur who's being forced to come and put his head down and, and not put his head down in class. And all of a sudden, Tanya started becoming more... I mean, you didn't really say this. I'm kind of putting this into your words, but-

16:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. It was a very... It was a long evolution. It was not something happened that I, I can't point to a certain point and say, "Oh, this is what had happened," or, "That's..." But o- over the years, and suddenly it's like Tanya becomes more and more alive and-

16:50 Speaker 2 As you're teaching it, like you said before.

16:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:52 Speaker 2 Like put-

16:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:52 Speaker 2 ... you're teaching it more, so-

16:53 Speaker 1 As you're teaching it-

16:53 Speaker 2 ... you're appreciating it more

16:54 Speaker 1 ... and then, and, and as you're learning it more and, uh, yeah.

16:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

16:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:57 Speaker 2 Okay. So th- so this is a big, um-

17:01 Speaker 1 By the way, teaching women, I taught, uh, I taught a... For many years, I taught a class in Machane Chana in Tanya. Not, not, not Machane Chana, Machane Chana. Machane Chana had a program called iLearn, which was basically Lubavitch women here in Crown Heights. By the way, that, that Tanya shiur that continued and only ended last year.

17:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

17:17 Speaker 1 Um-

17:18 Speaker 2 For how long?

17:19 Speaker 1 I was probably doing it for 12, 13 some years. Finished the whole Kuntem Arum and finished all Igar Zechuyos with the whole Shaarei Yichud VaMuna, I think, a lot of Kuntessacha and the later perakim. And then I did re-- and then the Kuntem Arum a second time.

17:33 Speaker 2 So it was the whole five Sefarim? 'Cause it-

17:35 Speaker 1 Not the whole five Sefarim.

17:36 Speaker 2 Oh.

17:36 Speaker 1 I didn't, I didn't do Igar Zechuva.

17:38 Speaker 2 Oh.

17:38 Speaker 1 'Cause another teacher was doing Igar Zechuva.

17:39 Speaker 2 Ah, okay.

17:40 Speaker 1 And I didn't do the first part in Kuntessacha.

17:42 Speaker 2 Okay, fine. But, um, almost... Besides Igar Zechuva, almost all Tanya.

17:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:45 Speaker 2 And then again, the Kuntem Arum, and that took 13 years, a weekly shiur?

17:50 Speaker 1 Uh, something of that sort, yeah.

17:52 Speaker 2 Wow.

17:52 Speaker 1 But the point is that women, they process things differently than men.

17:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

17:57 Speaker 1 So it, it forces you also to think in a certain direction when you're learning Tanya. They're not, they're, they're not, uh, they're not as abstract, to the contrary. I've ... So I remember the first time I taught the, uh, women's class, I taught Peirush HaTanya. So I had taught Peirush HaTanya a few times already to, in m- in, in, to men. And I re-- I was always remember how exciting it is, uh, teaching the Hagah- And teaching about the Machlikis between the Maharal and the Rambam, about HaKadosh Baruch Hu, and there's, uh, Pshitos, there's Hashem Chochmah. And every, every time I taught it, everyone was so excited. And I'm teaching it to these women, and their eyes are glazing over. And like, it was like lessons to me, it was like this whole, you know, the whole abstract philosophy just didn't talk to them. But it also gives you... It forces you to, to, to find a different language, and that language actually is a very, um, incredibly relevant language.

18:43 Speaker 2 Right. What about you? You said that the abstract philosophy doesn't talk to them as much, but let's say when it comes to She'echet Hamunach.

18:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. Doesn't talk to me much.

18:51 Speaker 2 Oh. So it's not-

18:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

18:52 Speaker 2 ... it's not about that it's like a pilpul, Maharal and then Rambam and whatever, and Kabbalah, but just any concept that's not... If it's not able to be practicalized.

19:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. Listen, there's a, there's a reason why women are malchus. You know, men are zeh, women are malchus. They're much more concrete.

19:09 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So and, and did you find yourself needing to do that, let's say in She'echet Hamunach, of, uh, of bringing a practical example for everything, or no, this is, this is-

19:17 Speaker 1 It's not about practical examples, it's about showing why it's relevant to my life.

19:20 Speaker 2 Right.

19:20 Speaker 1 It's about... Yeah. But the thing is, what I gained from that is that I started doing that in all my classes, including to the men's classes. And that became like, uh, that, that, that's like, yeah, of course, when you learn a perek you have to show the people how it's relevant in their lives, even if it does seem to be abstract. So that became a k- kind of a signature which probably led into very much into what's talked Tanya, that nekuda.

19:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. And it's a, it's a great topic, if you wanna head into that, about like, w- w- women maybe might need it more, but you said that you started doing it more for men. Is that what chassidus needs to be? Does chassidus need to become relevant in every person's life? If does every person-

19:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Relevant chassidus. So what's that question all about?

20:04 Speaker 2 Uh?

20:05 Speaker 1 What's that question all about?

20:06 Speaker 2 What's wrong with learning a perek of Tanya and appreciating haskala of it?

20:11 Speaker 1 There's nothing wrong with appreciating haskala, but there's something very right in bringing everything down to the level of the peh.

20:16 Speaker 2 Is it a bonus feature or is that what chassidus is about?

20:18 Speaker 1 It's in the Hayyim Yayyim, which was... Where the Rebbe says that the, the inyan of, of, of chassidus, I think it's in, in Kislev, that the inyan chassidus is to take every, every single thing that you learn, and there he's talking about niglah.

20:28 Speaker 2 Yud-gimmel chassidus, I think.

20:29 Speaker 1 Okay. So what's, uh, the... In niglah to, to-

20:31 Speaker 2 Yeah

20:32 Speaker 1 ... to understand it, what its shirayosh is in the, in the hilchos yayyim, and to know what the hira is for yourself. So madah, when you're learning Shir Hashirim, Agadas, Sefarim, you're learning a piece of Gemara to, so achas kama v'kama when you're talking about chassidus.

20:43 Speaker 2 Right.

20:43 Speaker 1 Now, at the same time, there's one of my favorite, uh, sichas is Mishpatim in, uh, chelek alef. Of course, it's chelek alef, oof. You'll get there. Oof.

20:50 Speaker 2 Right.

20:50 Speaker 1 Let me know when you get there.

20:51 Speaker 2 Okay.

20:51 Speaker 1 It's reish.

20:51 Speaker 2 It's the Shir and Simla on the Sefarim.

20:53 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, but, uh, so that's the first sicha. So later on in the-

20:57 Speaker 2 Okay

20:57 Speaker 1 ... there's the sicha from Keser Tov HaVasami.

20:58 Speaker 2 Okay.

20:59 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe there talks about learning chassidus every day. And that even on a day when you're evri v'al aviri, even if it was the day the Reish Lakish said, "A rabbonon, kum va-aseh, yesh eval ta'aseh," don't miss your shiray chassidus in that, don't miss your learning chassidus in that day, and also the Mashma says, "Don't miss your avodas hatfila." A-avodas hatfila on that day.

21:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:15 Speaker 1 And there the Rebbe says, "On that yahrzeit you should learn, learn, learn chassidus, learn a ma'amar, and lo davka an aveida d'ka ma'amar, but even a haskala d'ka ma'amar, even if it's such a deep haskala that you have no idea how to, how, how to, how to make it pra-practical or relevant in any way." Which is interesting, the, the britte of the Rebbe over there.

21:31 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. So th-there's... E- everyone knows that chassidus is supposed to be practical. I think it's a balance. I, I, I don't know if this is not the particularly the topic that, uh... I don't know if you wanna get into this, but, um, every... The question is, like, is it a bonus feature or not? W- uh, how mechuyav are you when you learn a ma'amar to stop and make sure that you could connect to it on a, uh, on a concrete, practical level in a, in a relevant way of your life, versus like you could appreciate that you learned a sodia, you learned a ma'amar, and not saying not to try to figure out a lesson in avoda, but it's, it's totally fine if you didn't get there.

22:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:16 Speaker 2 How much of a-

22:17 Speaker 1 How, how many, how many, how many ma'amarim are there from the Rebbe that, uh, where the Rebbe doesn't end with some sort of practical application and relevance?

22:24 Speaker 2 And like you said, even the sichas, uh, that are nigleh sichas.

22:26 Speaker 1 My point is that this is something the Rebbe kind of trained us in. This idea that when you learn something, it has to... You have to carry it on, what does it mean to me?

22:34 Speaker 2 Right. Not as a bonus feature. Saying this is a-

22:36 Speaker 1 Mechaya

22:36 Speaker 2 ... right.

22:37 Speaker 1 Mechaya, yeah.

22:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, you could probably connect it also that the Rebbe is atzmus, so everything has to fuse together automatically.

22:41 Speaker 1 Oh, I love, I love, I love those words. Can we talk more about that?

22:44 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Absolutely.

22:46 Speaker 1 I get excited when I hear sefira right there.

22:48 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Go for it. What, what, what, what, uh, when the Rebbe-

22:53 Speaker 1 No, so you, you realize, you realize that you just lost me when you said those words? For the exact reason what we're, what we're talking about over here right now.

22:59 Speaker 2 Of course.

22:59 Speaker 1 Good. Okay.

23:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:00 Speaker 1 As long as we're on the same page.

23:01 Speaker 2 So let's, so let's break, so let's break that down. So, so when you learn any ma'amar of the Rebbe or any sicha of the Rebbe, especially in the later years, the Rebbe's using osios of atzmus. The Rebbe's talking about the, the, the, the kesher atzmi or the inyan atzmi or the, um, atzmus or, you know, about the, the connection to atzmus. And we don't really have words to explain what atzmus are on a, on a, on a s- on a definitive term, right? Because part of what atzmus is, is that if you define it in a certain way, then probably that's not atzmus. It's one element in which atzmus could be manifest, could be expressed. So that's, I think, where there's a big challenge of what we're talking about, of h- how practical is atzmus. Not how practical is atzmus itself, but how practical is it to always be focusing on atzmus as opposed to something else.

23:57 Speaker 1 It's a great question. Could be that for our, for our next, uh-

24:01 Speaker 2 Sure. Absolutely.

24:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:02 Speaker 2 Okay. This is, uh... Yeah. It's... All right. Let's back up.

24:06 Speaker 1 We're sit- we're sitting here in the week, uh, in the week of Parshas Chayai Sara, right? Chayai Sara and Nun Veis. So just, uh... We can have a whole podcast just on, uh, whole episode just on that.

24:16 Speaker 2 That's the-

24:16 Speaker 1 What we're saying over there

24:17 Speaker 2 ... the Knes HaShluchim.

24:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, okay, so let's back up. The, the, the, um... But, uh, but, but it's still about this vort of relevance, okay? So let's, let's, let's b- go back to Tanya. So you're learning Tanya, and especially in, you know... Okay, let's, let's say you're not a 14-year-old bocher that maybe can't get it to a certain extent, but you're learning Tanya and you're learning about the beinoni. And you're not just learning about the beinoni, it's sefer shel beinonim. So if we plug in that question of how relevant and how practical it should be, this, this, this opens up a famous can of worms. So I, I, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal your line 'cause we, we've spoken many, many, many times. Um, d- you, you say this line: "Do you know of a beinoni?" Right? So, you know, w- there's a reason why you ask that question. What happens when you ask that question to most people? Y-y-

25:17 Speaker 1 Uh, do you know of a Bnei Yoni?

25:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. W-what's the question they usually ask? You usually ask, uh-

25:22 Speaker 1 Do you wanna be a Bnei Yoni?

25:23 Speaker 2 That's another question.

25:25 Speaker 1 I don't recall asking do I, do I know of a Bnei Yoni. I kinda figured you are, by the way.

25:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Well-

25:29 Speaker 1 Unless you've graduated since-

25:31 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:31 Speaker 1 ... from chasadic, um-

25:32 Speaker 2 Ah, okay. That I'm a Bnei Yoni.

25:34 Speaker 1 Un-again, unless you've graduated.

25:35 Speaker 2 Right. Chasa-chasadic, uh, Bnei Yoni, like, nu, nu Dagen Chasadic maybe. I'm a Bnei Yoni, so why am I, why am I a Bnei Yoni? So you're saying you know a Bnei Yoni, and I'm a Bnei Yoni. Why am I a Bnei Yoni to you?

25:47 Speaker 1 I-- There are many people who I know who by me are yitasuf ekesef that they're a Bnei Yoni. I can't, I can't know for sure, but there are many people who, uh, who I know by the people you mention, my betachlas and, uh, sumirava, saytev, holy Jews.

26:03 Speaker 2 When most people learn about the Bnei Yoni, when you teach Tanya to m-to, to... How do you present the Bnei Yoni?

26:09 Speaker 1 Uh, I, I talk about it a lot. It's not something which, which is oirech halacha. I talk about it-

26:14 Speaker 2 Sefer Sh'mo.

26:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:16 Speaker 2 So when you get to pa-

26:16 Speaker 1 I don't start teaching Tanya before I give a, a complete class on the topic of, of Sefer Sh'bnei and what it means. Um, what's your question?

26:27 Speaker 2 How practical is it for a regular person to be a Bnei Yoni?

26:35 Speaker 1 To, um, paraphrase Moshe Rabbeinu, um, karov omed.

26:45 Speaker 2 So when you look at Paracute Base-

26:47 Speaker 1 And by the way, if we didn't b-believe Moshe Rabbeinu, 'cause maybe we figured that maybe three thousand years ago, things were la-la-la-la. So now the Alter Rebbe comes and reinforces, so, uh, we know for sure that must be correct.

26:55 Speaker 2 Perek Zain. You're saying when he says, "Ter nisges and..."

27:00 Speaker 1 The whole Tanya is based on this idea of karov elokei avotai, that, that being a, being a Bnei Yoni is karov.

27:04 Speaker 2 Right. But-

27:04 Speaker 1 And karov doesn't mean easy, just by the way, stop. Well, um, in terms of translation, karov means practical, accessible. It's possible.

27:12 Speaker 2 Right.

27:13 Speaker 1 But l-l-l-let's reframe Tanya. It's not about being a Bnei Yoni. Um, it's not about being a Bnei Yoni. First of all, let's try to use English words. Um, it's about self-mastery. What is a Bnei Yoni? A Bnei Yoni is someone who struggles. And we'll talk more as we go along. May- We'll, we'll actually get to maybe more precise and a better definition of what a Bnei Yoni is, but on a very simple level, a Bnei Yoni is someone who struggles and nevertheless does what he or she knows is the right thing to do. In English, the word to that is self-mastery, self-control. Self-mastery and self-control, which in Tanya words are known as ma'ayech satz al alef. We all want self-mastery. We all, we all wanna have a greater, um, degree of self-control in our own lives. And ma'ayech satz alef means it's possible, right? We, we don't do-- Are, are we giving up on ourselves? No. So if I'm struggling and I wanna gain self-mastery, Tanya ca-here, Tanya gives you the tools how to do that. So how is that not relevant? A Bnei Yoni is someone who struggles, but nevertheless is successful. So what are you gonna say? You're gonna say, "I don't know if I will get it to a hundred percent of the, of the time." I'm not... Why, why do we have to argue about that? Why is that relevant?

28:31 Speaker 2 That's um, that's, that's the first question that comes up when you, when you learn Tanya and you learn the Alter Rebbe's definition of a Bnei Yoni. "Ov avir mi yom av li avir lo oilam v'lo nikla shom roshaf filu sha'achas." The Alter Rebbe makes it sound very absolutist.

28:44 Speaker 1 To get to the top level of Bnei Yoni, it's an absolute certain something, yeah. But, and if I don't get there, then it's useless? If I understand what w-the methodology, what is the point the Alter Rebbe's saying here? Alter Rebbe's saying, "I understand that you struggle. I wanna teach you how to be successful when you struggle." So if I, so if right now I am successful in struggles twenty percent, and I'm very bothered because I wanna be successful in other areas. So I look, look... Well, so what's Tanya? Tanya teaches me how to be successful. So let's say I'll get from twenty percent to eighty percent. How is, how is that not the most relevant sefer that I have?

29:17 Speaker 2 If you look at it as that concept, but doesn't it sound like the Alter Rebbe doesn't frame a Bnei like that? In other words, we, w-let's say we grew up in Yeshiva, so we get to Paracute Base and, uh, it's the million-dollar question. Alter Rebbe defines a Bnei. It's, it's the definition of a Bnei Yoni. Paracute Base, v'al Bnei Yoni hu that sh'lo oilam, the nefsh hachamas doesn't, does not control him. Na b'dibah, na b'machshavah, na b'ma'asah. And lo ovir avir mi yom av li avir lo oilam v'lo nikla shom roshaf filu sha'achas v'rega echad kol yamav. The Alter Rebbe mamash puts it in li- three lines, that a Bnei Yoni is someone who never did an aveira, never will do an aveira, never i-goes into Rasha's zone, even for one moment of his life. And, and we already appreciate what a Rasha is from Paracute Alef. So we already know that a Rasha is someone that even once has a machshavah dibbur ma'asah v'an aveira. Fine. So that's the definition of a Bnei Yoni. Then you continue reading the rest of Sefer Sh'bnei, and yes, the Alter Rebbe, you know, first of all, in Paracute Daled, Alter Rebbe says that everybody could be a Bnei Yoni, and then of course, there's the, the, the, the, the, the anxiety that the Bnei Yoni deals with, and Alter Rebbe spends all those chaf prakim, lamed prakim, et cetera, dealing with the feelings of the Bnei Yoni and the depression that the Bnei Yoni might have. Uh,

30:24 Speaker 2 why, why does Hashem do this to me? Why do I have to struggle? So it starts getting... It starts fee- it starts feeling more practical as you go through Tanya, but the definition of the Bnei Yoni, the Alter Rebbe's d-o-opening words, a Bnei Yoni is, it already starts s-it sounds not practical.

30:40 Speaker 1 Shmuel, I love you, but I feel you didn't hear what I just said before. You were very focused on your question. I'm trying to tell you something. I feel that you didn't hear it.

30:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

30:47 Speaker 1 But it's fine.

30:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

30:49 Speaker 1 I, I wanna... I wa-

30:50 Speaker 2 Yeah. You said that the, that Tanya's giving you a way that you could become better in your life So, but, but, but, but that doesn't-

30:56 Speaker 1 Tanya is about self-mastery.

30:57 Speaker 2 Right.

30:58 Speaker 1 If I want more self-mastery, learn Tanya.

31:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

31:00 Speaker 1 Now, how, how much self-mastery will I, will, will I attain? As much or as little as I avail myself of the tools that Tanya gives me. And if I wanna go all the way, I could go all the way. And if I don't, and if I, if I go for less, it's... But wh-whatever-

31:12 Speaker 2 So-

31:13 Speaker 1 -degree of self-mastery I want, the answer-

31:14 Speaker 2 Right

31:14 Speaker 1 ...is gonna be in Tanya.

31:15 Speaker 2 So why does Alter Rebbe need a Benei to be the guy who's Lev Eliyahu?

31:19 Speaker 1 Okay, so-

31:20 Speaker 2 Why can't we talk about the Ohr HaDagim, the entire pekeach hazos?

31:22 Speaker 1 Very good. Okay, so let's talk about that. But if you wanna talk about that, we really need to back up.

31:26 Speaker 2 Yeah.

31:26 Speaker 1 I need to talk about what a Benei is.

31:27 Speaker 2 Let's go.

31:28 Speaker 1 Um, a-- and to go a little deeper-

31:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

31:31 Speaker 1 ...than the average, uh, understanding. Where do we start?

31:44 Speaker 2 Not Bereishit B.

31:53 Speaker 1 So if I were to ask you, if you have a person whose Nefesh Elokis and Nefesh Behamis are both at full strength. Neither one of them has managed to, in any which way, compromise the other. Neither one of them has managed in any which way to gain an unnatural upper hand over the other. What's the name of that person?

32:23 Speaker 2 A Benei.

32:24 Speaker 1 Benei. Okay. That's good, because most people would answer Rasha. Because the obvious question is, right, um, obvious question is-

32:34 Speaker 2 He's feeling the desire-

32:35 Speaker 1 Then why, why is the person doing all the mitzvahs? If the, if the, if the, if the Nefesh Behamis is at, is at full strength. And the answer to that is because Meréshat HaLev. So when they're both at full strength, the Nefesh Elokis and Nefesh Behamis are both at full strength, so the, um, the result will be that the person will only do mitzvahs because a Nefesh Elokis at full strength will always be able to, um, defeat the Nefesh Behamis at full strength. So that is a Benei.

33:06 Speaker 2 And, and let's just clarify, and he's still not Tzadik because he has a desire to do Averis that he has to conquer.

33:12 Speaker 1 No. He's not a Tzadik 'cause he's not a Tzadik. 'Cause what is a Tzadik? Let's talk about what a Tzadik is.

33:19 Speaker 2 That he doesn't even have Yetzer Hara.

33:21 Speaker 1 A Tzadik is someone who there's an imbalance. The Nefesh Elokis has gained an advantage over the Nefesh, uh, over the Nefesh Behamis.

33:31 Speaker 2 Of?

33:33 Speaker 1 Either-

33:33 Speaker 2 An advantage of?

33:34 Speaker 1 It could be in, in a way of a knockout blow, in a way of transforming it. But as opposed to the Benei, where the Nefesh Elokis and Nefesh Behamis are both at full strength, neither one of them have a shlita in the words of Tanya over the other one.

33:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

33:44 Speaker 1 The Tzadik, there is an, um, a degree, the Nefesh Elokis has gained the upper hand. Not only the upper hand in terms of because of Meréshat HaLev. Meréshat HaLev means only that Nefesh Elokis wants one thing, Nefesh Behamis wants something else, so the person will do l'paleach what the Nefesh Elokis wants. No, no, but that's not a shlita over Nefesh Behamis.

34:00 Speaker 2 Right. Shlita over the outcome.

34:02 Speaker 1 It's a shlita over what the person is going to do.

34:04 Speaker 2 Right.

34:05 Speaker 1 You know, the, the third, the third judge.

34:07 Speaker 2 Right.

34:07 Speaker 1 By the Tzadik, the Nefesh Elokis actually has gained an advantage over Nefesh Behamis, has control over Nefesh Behamis.

34:12 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:13 Speaker 1 There-- so there's an imbalance. The Rasha is someone who there's another imbalance. The balance is the other way around, which is that the Nefesh Behamis has gained an advantage over the Nefesh Elokis. The Nefesh Elokis has been weakened. Just like by the Tzadik, the Nefesh Behamis has been weakened. By Rasha, the Nefesh Elokis has been weakened. That is what a Tzadik, a Benei, and a Rasha is. So if someone comes along to you and says that someone... That if you do an Averia, you're a Rasha. If you do an Averia, you become a Rasha. That's not true. No, you do an Averia because you're a Rasha.

34:54 Speaker 2 Hmm.

34:54 Speaker 1 A Rasha is an internal state. It's a state where there's an imbalance where your Nefesh Elokis has been weakened. If your Nefesh Elokis has been weakened, you are going to do Averias. Now, how many Averias are you gonna do?

35:07 Speaker 2 One second. What about Bechirah Chofshis?

35:09 Speaker 1 Oh. Really not.

35:13 Speaker 2 Why? Why really not?

35:14 Speaker 1 Because the Bechirah is to... I-in working on yourself.

35:18 Speaker 2 You're saying the Bechirah is to get to that state?

35:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:21 Speaker 2 Really?

35:23 Speaker 1 But really for another time.

35:24 Speaker 2 Okay. 'Cause... Okay.

35:32 Speaker 1 How many... I-if your Nefesh, Nef-Nefesh Elokis has been weakened, how many Averias are you going to do? So it depends how big of a Rasha you are. The bigger Rasha will do more Averias. A lesser Rasha will do, um, um, less Averias. But you don't become a bigger Rasha by doing more Averias. The contrary. The bigger the imbalance, which makes you a bigger Rasha, the more Averias that you're going to do. If the imbalance is a smaller imbalance, then you're a smaller Rasha. A smaller Rasha, the smaller Averias. Meaning, Nefesh Elokis has the advantage of Meréshat HaLev. So, if the Nefesh Elokis has only been weakened a little, so then in a lar-- to a large degree, the Meréshat HaLev still is, is still there. On-only when the person's under a lot of stress and once in a while will a crack and the person will do an Averia. The more the Nefesh Elokis is weakened, the more, the more Averias a person will do. But Nefesh Elok-- but Tzadik, Rasha, Benei are internal states. So if I were to ask you, what happens if a Benei does an Averia? What would your answer be?

36:35 Speaker 2 So previously, my answer would be, now he's not a Benei.

36:37 Speaker 1 And now you know that it's a true question.

36:39 Speaker 2 Right.

36:39 Speaker 1 Right? There's no such thing.

36:40 Speaker 2 Right.

36:41 Speaker 1 If you did an Averia, it's because he's not a Benei. 'Cause a Benei can't do an Averia. That's an internal state.

36:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:47 Speaker 1 This is huge. Why is it huge? Because this is, this is not a small, small idea. In the first period of Tanya, the Alter Rebbe moves us away from a con-- the conventional understanding of Tzadik, Benei, and Rasha. And the obvious question is, why? What's bothering him? The way it's conventionally understood and the way in most places in Chazal, tzadik is someone who's mostly mitzvos, and a Rasha is someone who's mostly averos, and a Benei Yisrael is someone who's half and half. Alter Rebbe, uh, no, no, no, no. Now think about it for a second. If the goal of Tanya is ki kar vi'elecha davar miyed, why is it that we have to change definitions in order to get the ki kar vi'elecha? Make it a sefer shel tzadikim, if you get what I'm saying.

37:22 Speaker 2 Right.

37:22 Speaker 1 Go with the conventional understanding as a sefer shel tzadikim. Why does Alter-- And by the way, this is a chiddush of Alter Rebbe's.

37:28 Speaker 2 The Benei, the whole Benei picture.

37:29 Speaker 1 The whole part of the Benei Rasha is a chiddush of Alter Rebbe's.

37:31 Speaker 2 Right.

37:32 Speaker 1 Why does Alter Rebbe have to do that? And traumatize Yidden, atzei v'kal ateres, not Lubavitchers, 'cause we're not traumatized.

37:39 Speaker 2 'Cause we're desensitized.

37:41 Speaker 1 Oh, no, no, we're showing, uh, Rasha. I was a Rasha. I am a Rasha. I will be a Rasha, and I think we should have a Rasha pride parade tomorrow-

37:47 Speaker 2 Right

37:47 Speaker 1 ... down Eastern Parkway, and I'm gonna go with a lot of, uh, with, with my flag because every Lubavitcher knows Rasha. But you should know that outside of Lubavitch, when people learn Peirush Ha'Talmud, it's a huge problem.

37:56 Speaker 2 Right.

37:56 Speaker 1 I, I've experienced this personally. People who partially, they, they, they... You telling me I'm a Rasha? I know some-someone reached out to me, a shlucha somewhere, teaching a class, uh, to, to, to frum ladies, and the class almost blew up because of this, be-because of this thing. Why is it, why does Alter Rebbe have to do that?

38:15 Speaker 2 Can I just throw in an, uh-

38:16 Speaker 1 Yeah

38:17 Speaker 2 ... uh, the story in, in my family is that, uh, when my great-grandmother, Bubby Rovashkan, zal ain irin, when she, uh, when she was a kid in Nevel learning, so her father, z"l, chazan, hired a melamed to teach them Tanya. And, uh, she came home first day crying. You know, she learned Peirush Ha'Talmud, so, so, uh, I... now I know what a tzadik, Rasha, Beni is, so what are we? So her father answered, "Mir zaynen shtam Yidden." Uh...

38:46 Speaker 1 And let me ask you a question.

38:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

38:48 Speaker 1 Bubby Rovashkan is not a Beni?

38:49 Speaker 2 Uh, Bubby Rovashkan is a Beni.

38:51 Speaker 1 So, no, no-

38:51 Speaker 2 That's, that's absolutely true, but-

38:52 Speaker 1 So, so going back to what we were talking about, uh, beforehand.

38:56 Speaker 2 Bubby Rovashkan's not everybody.

38:58 Speaker 1 I didn't, I didn't say everyone's a Beni. I didn't say that.

39:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

39:00 Speaker 1 But every person knows they're B-- Yidden are part of good Yidden or nizah in, in, in Shulchan Aruch, absolutely, a hundred percent.

39:07 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Oh, one second. So going back. So this is, so, so the way we learned it in, in, in yeshiva, the classic thing when you get to this million-dollar question of, uh, every person's a, could be a Beni, but, uh, Beni never did averos, so the class-

39:18 Speaker 1 You're jumping ahead. You're jumping ahead. Uh-

39:19 Speaker 2 Okay. Fine

39:19 Speaker 1 ... there's still a ways to go.

39:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.

39:20 Speaker 1 Still a ways to go.

39:23 Speaker 2 So you're saying, so why did Alter Rebbe have to do this?

39:26 Speaker 1 The classical way of understanding tzadik, Beni and Rasha is about behavior. How many mitzvos did you do? How many averos did you do?

39:30 Speaker 2 Right.

39:32 Speaker 1 And the Alter Rebbe feels a very strong need to tell us, "No, no. I need to pull, pull you away from that, away from behavior, and explain to you a tzadik, Beni and Rasha is who you are, not what you do, but it's who you are."

39:45 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

39:46 Speaker 1 Which is very interesting because you think about it for a second. The Beni and the tzadik of Tanya in terms of behavior are the exact same.

39:53 Speaker 2 Right.

39:54 Speaker 1 It doesn't-- They might, they, they, they might be, they might have the same behaviors, but they're completely different people. In what way? One of them has a full, a full strength nefshat Chayyim, is the Beni. And one of them, the nefshat Chayyim has been radically weakened. These are internal states. These are internal states that express themselves in behavior, but they're not about behaviors, which is why the Alter Rebbe says in Peirush Ha'Talmud that tzadik, Beni and Rasha, the way the world understands it, is a shem hamushol. Shem hamushol doesn't mean it's wrong.

40:19 Speaker 2 Right.

40:20 Speaker 1 Chazal say, use these words. What does shem hamushol mean? It's true, but it's true to describe the behavior. It's not true to describe you. To you, our shem, our to you is-- I wa-- When I wanna talk and say, "Are you a tzadik?" The truest definition is not about your behavior, but it's what's going on inside you. We're talking here about a, about, about a state. Okay. Which by the way, this is also connected to the whole revolution of nefesh Elokis and nefshat Chayyim, as opposed to yetzer tov, yetzer hara.

40:46 Speaker 2 Right.

40:46 Speaker 1 'Cause nefshat Chayyim also is not about behavior, it's about, it's a- it's about identity.

40:50 Speaker 2 Energy. Yeah.

40:51 Speaker 1 Right? So this, everything, ev-ev-everything's connected. Now, let's fast-forward to Peirush Ha'Talmud.

41:00 Speaker 2 One second. Did, did that answer why the Alter Rebbe had to do that? In other words, w- and why the Alter Rebbe wanted to talk about who you are versus what you do?

41:06 Speaker 1 Because this is Chabad. This is Chabad. This is not a just do it. This is not, "Oh, you didn't do mitzvos? Try harder." The whole Chabad is about avoda, changing yourself. The entire, the entire Be'er Hasava Chabad is not about, "Let me teach you what to do." It's about starting with Cha- with Chabad, starting with y- by changing your perceptions, your understandings, the things, right, the way, your, your perspectives, which then changes your feelings and change, changes your behaviors. That's-- So we, we always start in the deepest part. We always start with the deepest part, which is our sechel. So this is the, this is the yesod of Chabad. And someone who takes Tanya and reduces it to behaviors i-is missing out the entire point.

41:46 Speaker 2 Right.

41:47 Speaker 1 Okay. Let's fast-forward now to Peirush Ha'Talmud. Now we understand tzadik, Beni and Rasha are, are, are, are, are, are internal states. So Alter Rebbe says a Beni is someone... So the words he uses, "A Beni is someone v'lo yaavor aveira miyamav, aveira, Beni never did an aveira, v'lo yaavor leolom, never will do an aveira. V'nikra lo shem Rasha af lo she'achad v'regel chayei avodah. He was never called a Beni, uh, Rasha even one, one moment, uh, um, for his entire life." Now, let's remember, Beni is not about behavior. It's about s- it's about, about internal states. So we have to understand everything because first of all, there's obviously so many questions over here as the Rebbe himself says, "Vayidakush, you do it, what does this mean?" But h-how is it possible to say that if you did a, a, a, an aveira, you can't be a Beni? So first, let's, uh, let's establish one thing. One, one more thing we-- I, I wanna establish. A person whose natural case has been... Is, is, is weak, is weakened in any which way can't be a baal nefesh by definition. Correct?

43:27 Speaker 2 It has to be balanced.

43:29 Speaker 1 It's not balanced. The word ba-- I don't like the word balanced even though... Because balanced, uh, uh, the natural... In the natural state, the natural case will enjoy, um, superiority or sovereignty over their yetzer hara, but-

43:40 Speaker 2 Because of .

43:40 Speaker 1 'Cause of yeah. But if the natural case is weakened, then by definition you're a rasha. That, that is the definition of a rasha. What is the most common thing that weakens a nefesh elokis? It's very practical.

43:57 Speaker 2 Oh.

43:57 Speaker 1 There is.

43:59 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

44:00 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't mean that in a spiritual sense. I mean very practically, if you take someone who's, uh, for the last five years or, or has never missed saying hitah a day in their life, and then one night they come home and it's eleven o'clock at night, and they're exhausted, and they have a headache, and they're stressed, and they're not in the mood, and they're, you know, their, their boss screamed at them that, that day, what are the chances they're gonna miss hitah that day? Very, very slim. It, it cannot, right?

44:33 Speaker 2 Conditioned.

44:34 Speaker 1 It's, "That's what I do."

44:37 Speaker 2 Right.

44:38 Speaker 1 What about someone who missed hitah two weeks ago, one day, and then a, a month ago, a day, and then two or three months ago, a day? The chance that they miss, miss a hitah is very, very high. In the words of Chazal, "Aveira goreret aveira," which is not a spiritual thing, it's partially a psychological dynamic.

44:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:53 Speaker 1 Or the idea of, "Aber v'shana naseh lecha heter." So the problem with having done an aveira isn't the fact that you did an aveira. The reason why a baal nefesh can't be someone who has an aveira is not because there's a, "In the past I did an aveira, I can't be a baal nefesh now." How, how is me doing aveira in the past impact my state now? If a baal nefesh is a state, one minute ago to, uh, two years ago. The answer is that the aveira that you did exists in your present. To put it in somewhat different words, and if we're gonna go may-maybe fly a little high over here. There's the past, there's the present, there's the future. But the truth is, there's the past and the future as they exist in the present.

45:36 Speaker 2 Why the future?

45:38 Speaker 1 Why the future? 'Cause if I look at you and say, "Ah, I think that tomorrow you're going to, uh, do ," because I know you. Uh, I mean, .

45:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:48 Speaker 1 How do I know that? It's the future as it is, a-and if I know you well enough-

45:52 Speaker 2 Because of that

45:53 Speaker 1 ... I'm able to predict... Uh, not that, because who you are right now.

45:55 Speaker 2 Okay. Well-

45:56 Speaker 1 All it is, well, your, your, your, your, your, your present reality is made up of your past and therefore dictates your future.

46:02 Speaker 2 Right.

46:03 Speaker 1 Right?

46:03 Speaker 2 Yeah.

46:05 Speaker 1 So your state right now, when we're talking about your state, your state includes your past, includes your present, and includes your future, but all as they are, all as they exist in the current moment.

46:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Right.

46:15 Speaker 1 So the Alter Rebbe saying something over here, a baal nefesh can't have done aveira. Why? 'Cause then he can't be a baal nefesh, 'cause then he's weakened. Does that mean that he couldn't have done aveira? Of course, he could, could've done an aveira, but he has to now have reached a point where that aveira doesn't exist anymore. To put... Like, how long would it take if I missed hitah last week, how long would it take for me to get to a place where I am as strong as someone who never missed hitah? It's possible, but it takes, first of all, repetition. It takes also focus. It takes certain, um, learning about it, thinking about it, a certain passion and, and then when I do that, I'm a baal nefesh in that area. Because if I'm not weakened any longer by that aveira, then that aveira doesn't exist. I saw, um, Rabbi Evan Yisroel. Did you see what he says on ?

47:03 Speaker 2 No.

47:03 Speaker 1 He's awesome. He says that sometimes a person looks at themselves and say, "I did something that wasn't me." You look back at something you did five years ago, "I, I, I can't do something of that sort. I can't believe I did it. That's... It wasn't me."

47:20 Speaker 2 Right.

47:20 Speaker 1 Or to use the words of the Rabbi in right there-

47:22 Speaker 2 Yes

47:22 Speaker 1 ... about someone who says, "I'm not that person, I'm someone else." Think about that for a second. What do you mean, "I'm not that person"? You're not... Yeah, it's true. You are not the... The person who you are today is not the person that did that aveira, and therefore, you don't have that connection even. It doesn't weaken you any longer. And you're a person that you're at a certain... You, you, you're... So who's a baal nefesh? Someone who hasn't been weakened by any aveira in the past, even if he, even if he or she has done aveira in the past, and someone who because of their state are not gonna do an aveira. Now, tomorrow, maybe they won't be a baal nefesh, they will do an aveira. But that's, but that's the, that's the future as it is in the future, not the future as it is in the present. This is so yesodistic because when you understand that a baal nefesh is a state, what is that state? As opposed to, and anyone who I taught Tanya knows that this is a pet peeve of mine. You're familiar with this, my-

48:14 Speaker 2 Mm, go ahead

48:14 Speaker 1 ... baal nefesh moments?

48:16 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

48:16 Speaker 1 Okay.

48:16 Speaker 2 That's what I was gonna get to.

48:17 Speaker 1 Oh.

48:17 Speaker 2 That's what we were taught in yeshiva.

48:19 Speaker 1 Oh, so-

48:20 Speaker 2 That's, that's-

48:20 Speaker 1 A baal nefesh moment, taking Tanya in my, in my humble opinion-

48:23 Speaker 2 Right

48:23 Speaker 1 ... and I'm gonna get hate mail for this.

48:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

48:25 Speaker 1 But taking Tanya and putting-

48:26 Speaker 2 I'll, I'll put your email on the, on the link.

48:28 Speaker 1 Thank you very much. Okay. Um, taking Tanya and using it as proof or trying to use it as a source for, for a baal nefesh moment is, is such a perversion of what Tanya's trying to accomplish.

48:38 Speaker 2 Let's, uh, let's, let's develop this because this is, uh, this is, this is big 'cause I think this is the way most people teach Tanya, I think. That, uh, the, the question in... The, the, the question that you said before the Rebbe first was a um, which I wanna go back to, is the defines a baal nefesh as . They never did aveira, never will. In the Rebbe says that a baal nefesh that every person could be a baal nefesh. So every person could be a baal nefesh. So how could every person be a baal nefesh if a baal nefesh never did an aveira and I did an aveira? So that's the million-dollar question. So, uh, uh, uh, so first of all, in, in the Rebbe's Torah, over many, many and letters, so on every level of the Rebbe's Torah, the answer is-

49:26 Speaker 1 What I said.

49:27 Speaker 2 Right.

49:27 Speaker 1 That's not-

49:27 Speaker 2 Which, which is that, that your current state, your current state is, one, that it's as if you never did an aveira, and therefore you're likely not to do an aveira. I think you developed it very beautifully, which is that it's not just like, "Oh, so it's a cop-out because you're talking about the current state." I think you framed it in the bigger picture of Tanya that, yes, the whole Tanya is about the current state.

49:47 Speaker 1 Exactly.

49:47 Speaker 2 And, yeah.

49:47 Speaker 1 Once you understand what the Alter Rebbe's trying to accomplish with, with baal nefesh, you realize it's not, it's not a, it's not a little gimmick over here. It's actually a description of where we're moving people away from in terms of the understanding of baal nefesh, which is behavior, be-behavior, be-be-behavioral, right?

49:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

50:00 Speaker 1 Which in the Alter Rebbe says, "Uh-uh." I mean, not uh-uh, but it's a . And this, this is actually the most incredibly pithy-

50:07 Speaker 2 Mm

50:07 Speaker 1 ... if I can use that fancy word-

50:08 Speaker 2 Right

50:08 Speaker 1 ... description of a baal nefesh right here.

50:10 Speaker 2 Right. So, so the... So what most people, I guess, what you could say miss with that is that the Alter Rebbe is sounding very absolutist, very literal, and a baal teshuvah is someone who never did an aveira. And I, I'll put in here, I know, I know we, we discussed this, uh, uh, in the past, that you have, let's say, from Reb Gefalle Kahn in, printed in a Talmid where Reb Gefalle gives one suggestion. A, a bachur submitted this question in Talmid, which was a journal in Tomkhei Tmimim in, back in Poland, where bachur were able to submit questions and they were answered by Mashpiim in, in the future, uh, epis- in the future, um-

50:45 Speaker 1 Editions

50:45 Speaker 2 ... editions. And the, and the bachur asked this question, and Reb Gefalle gives a whole three-page answer, and one perspective in his answer, one derech that he goes with, not his maskona, but one derech he goes with is that, "Yeah, taka. You can't be a baal teshuvah. If you've never... can't be a baal teshuvah. What, what are you, uh, what are you getting all, uh, tied up about that?" So I wanna get back to that part of it. But so you have this way of learning Tanya in a very literal, absolutist way, that a baal teshuvah is someone who never did aveira, never will do an aveira. So now we wanna make it practical to, you know, so a bachur comes to his Mashpia and says, "So what's Tanya for me? I did an aveira." So the, so the Mashpia talks about the baal teshuvah moment. So why do you have to think about all or nothing? Why do you have to be 100 or, or zero? You, you... right now you could be a baal teshuvah. R-right now you could, you could hold yourself back from doing an aveira. Yeah. Okay. So right now you could be a baal teshuvah. Um, and, and, and now it's a avoda of, of furthering that experience of a baal teshuvah moment more and more quantity-wise throughout your, the rest of your day. So you're saying that that's feeding the perspective where the Alter Rebbe was being absolutist, and now we need to filter that into that it

51:45 Speaker 2 shouldn't be literally absolutist because then I can't do it if it's an absolute, if it's an absolute avoda. Can't be all or nothing 'cause th-then I'm automatically by nothing. So you're saying... so, so the Mashpiim say that like, okay, so it's not, um, it's not literally all or nothing, but it's the all or nothing for right now.

52:00 Speaker 1 Okay, you're mixing up two different things, in my humble opinion.

52:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

52:04 Speaker 1 There's the absolute... Because everything I said is still very absolutist. It's a certain state of le'olam v'le'olamim. I have to be right now in a situation where I'm not weakened by any aveira, and where I, I'm in m-my state, yehideh alav, yehideh et olam hazeh-

52:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

52:16 Speaker 1 ... so that, that's also very difficult.

52:17 Speaker 2 Correct. I'm talking absolutist in time also. Like, in other words, that I cannot, uh, think about the future. A, a regular teenager, a regular bachur, he's, he's, uh, he's saying, "What do you mean? But I know myself. I know I'm gonna do an aveira, so why should I even try to be a baal teshuvah now?" Or the po- opposite, that I know my past-

52:31 Speaker 1 So you wanna go... You wanna tell someone, "Hello, for the next five minutes don't do an aveira"?

52:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

52:37 Speaker 1 That's a great thing.

52:39 Speaker 2 Great.

52:39 Speaker 1 Habakash loves when people don't do averas. For the next five minutes you'll do mitzvahs? Awesome. But v'chasos tanya.

52:49 Speaker 2 W- Well, what about v'chasos mitzvas tanya? Isn't tanya supposed to be the guiding-

52:53 Speaker 1 Well, ever since Moshe Rabbeinu gave us the Torah 3,300 years ago, we knew we're not supposed to do averas and supposed to do mitzvahs. And we also knew that sometimes if it's too much to bite off, so you do five minutes.

53:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

53:04 Speaker 1 What does that do with tanya? What does that do with baal teshuvah? Why are you using the word baal teshuvah?

53:07 Speaker 2 Mm.

53:08 Speaker 1 It has nothing to do with baal teshuvah. If you understand that baal teshuvah is a state, not doing an aveira for five minutes has nothing to do with being a baal teshuvah.

53:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

53:14 Speaker 1 It's a great thing to serve the Habakash. But by doing that, you're, you're, you're giving people a misunderstanding of the baal teshuvah and of tanya, what we're trying to accomplish here.

53:23 Speaker 2 Hmm. So this, this may be now I think maybe add more clarity on what you meant before about that. A b- a 14-year-old bachur might not have enough self-awareness or maturity to be able to understand this because you're saying that it's not about, um, a, a sefer of getting to do the right thing. It's a sefer of learning to appreciate a, a, a identity of, of who you are and who you should be. And you're saying maybe a bachur will get caught up in the behavioral part of it, the tanya's coming to help me be a better-

53:55 Speaker 1 Halavai .

53:56 Speaker 2 Well, halavai. But even, but yeah. No, but-

53:59 Speaker 1 That's really the biggest problem that a bachur gets caught up-

54:01 Speaker 2 Of course. But what you're saying, that's what chitas is for.

54:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I, I was... No, that's not what I meant earlier. I meant the bachur relating to the different struggles the Alter Rebbe's talking about and the nefesh elokis, nefesh behamis, and the yetzer hatov and the, and the, the atzlus, and there's just have many of these things that are, uh-

54:16 Speaker 2 A 14-year-old doesn't want atzlus?

54:20 Speaker 1 Uh, no. No. I-

54:24 Speaker 2 Why not?

54:25 Speaker 1 Do you know what atzlus is?

54:28 Speaker 2 Do I know what atzlus is?

54:28 Speaker 1 Can you tell, tell, tell, tell it to me in English words?

54:31 Speaker 2 Atzlus is feeling that there's no hope and no point in doing anything.

54:42 Speaker 1 Okay.

54:42 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay. You don't wanna go there.

54:44 Speaker 1 This is sort of episode number six, so of, of, of the, uh... That's a whole... A-what atzlus is, is a whole, uh, yeah. Here's a story out of Shmona. A-as, as you may know, in, in, in... instead of baal teshuvah moments, I advocate for baal teshuvah areas. I re-

55:04 Speaker 2 No

55:04 Speaker 1 ... never discussed this?

55:06 Speaker 2 Maybe not. I don't remember that term.

55:08 Speaker 1 A baal teshuvah area is an area of struggle in your life to try to become a baal teshuvah. And that's real because that's... You wanna reach this state of baal teshuvah in that area of your life.

55:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

55:21 Speaker 1 Our lives, all of our lives, were made up of, of three columns. There's tzaddik areas, there's baal teshuvah areas, there's rasha areas. A rasha area is an area where my nefesh elokis is stronger, and therefore I fail anywhere between 100% of the time to 0.1% of the time. But if I fail on that struggle, right, a baal teshuvah is somewhere where I just think it's failing, period. We all have those areas in our life. Example I always give is eating on Yom Kippur.

55:46 Speaker 2 Okay.

55:46 Speaker 1 Right? Every one of us is a baal teshuvah in that area. Then tzaddik areas. A tzaddik area is the area, let's say, I, I don't... not only I don't struggle, but I have a... Not, not only do, not only that I don't be able to do something wrong, actually it's not even a struggle. I enjoy it. I, it's something which I've, I've no, I've no taavah for something or a mitzvah-

56:00 Speaker 2 That would be on Yom Kippur

56:02 Speaker 1 ... example.

56:03 Speaker 2 Yom Kippur example is not a tzaddik?

56:04 Speaker 1 If, if, if when someone brings me a, a slice of pizza on Yom Kippur, I, I, I start feeling nauseous, that would be a tzaddik.

56:13 Speaker 2 Okay. That, that's what I thought you were going with.

56:15 Speaker 1 No.

56:15 Speaker 2 Okay. Like you don't even have the time to eat.

56:16 Speaker 1 A tzaddik, the example I give for, for, for a tzaddik here is when it comes to Pesach by night, the first night of the seder, I'm not like, "Oh man, do I have to do a seder?" Okay. But, uh, uh, I'll go do it. Like Yom Kippur, I'm not excited about fasting. I wanna eat.

56:29 Speaker 2 Right.

56:29 Speaker 1 Which says-

56:29 Speaker 2 Ah, okay.

56:31 Speaker 1 Uh, but, but-

56:31 Speaker 2 You, you, you feel hungry, but you don't think of eating. You don't-

56:35 Speaker 1 But, but I, but I don't... I... In other words, also the benoni is someone the Alter Rebbe says that

56:43 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

56:43 Speaker 1 I want it, but it's not ..." A tzaddik doesn't want it

56:46 Speaker 2 Mm. So a tzaddik doesn't even feel hungry on Kippur?

56:49 Speaker 1 I don't know if a tzaddik d- doesn't feel hungry, but the thought of eating,

56:52 Speaker 2 Mm.

56:52 Speaker 1 Pashut is like, he has no, he has no desire to eat. Anyways, one day-

56:56 Speaker 2 Okay

56:56 Speaker 1 ... one day when I'll get there, I'll let you know the-

56:57 Speaker 2 Okay

56:57 Speaker 1 ... the experience-

56:58 Speaker 2 Yeah

56:58 Speaker 1 ... what it's like. Um, the point is, so if I say to you-

57:05 Speaker 2 The benoni here is-

57:06 Speaker 1 ... would you like that you learn Yichudus every single day? It should be like, like, like, like, like, like saying

57:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:12 Speaker 1 ...

57:12 Speaker 2 In other words, just like on Yom Kippur, you do Mm-hmm.

57:15 Speaker 1 And there, it's nothing more to talk about. Is that an achievable goal? And but, but the point is to get to the place where I'm someone who says Yichudus every day. Not that, not I say Yichudus every day. I am someone who says Yichudus every day. Because a benoni is not someone who does the right thing. He's a person who, his ma'aseh v'hanefesh is such that doesn't, it's not

57:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:41 Speaker 1 It's a... 'Cause the benoni is always about the status. In certain areas in my life, it's not like when... So I'm asking you a question. You always fast on Yom Kippur, right? Okay. Do, do you think next year you'll fast on Yom Kippur?

57:53 Speaker 2 Yes.

57:54 Speaker 1 Oh, le'olam va'ed.

57:55 Speaker 2 Right.

57:55 Speaker 1 I would say so. We have a le'olam va'ed over here, right? You know?

57:58 Speaker 2 Right.

57:58 Speaker 1 How do you know? How do you know it's next year? And can you tell me that a million percent that you're gonna fast?

58:02 Speaker 2 Mm.

58:02 Speaker 1 No, you can't. You have a cherichas.

58:04 Speaker 2 Right.

58:04 Speaker 1 But right now, Shmuel Wagner, Reb Shmuel Wagner, right?

58:08 Speaker 2 Right.

58:08 Speaker 1 When it comes to that, it's le'olam va'ed. How many other areas in the li- in your life are there that are le'olam va'ed? Now, what if I wanna start adding areas? That's a benoni area, and that's real. And that's something which is real. A benoni more, five minutes, boom. It's, it wasn't me, it was behavior.

58:23 Speaker 2 Behavior.

58:23 Speaker 1 And Tanya is about me. It's about transformation.

58:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Okay. So first of all, whe- the, the... Two questions. Number one is when the Alter Rebbe writes that, so it's definitely much clearer the way you're saying it, as opposed to thinking that it's a matter of a whole life and time, literally, and then needing to for answer it as, as, you know, as all these, um, questions are trying to for answer it. But it's still, it's still a very dramatic statement, which means it's still a statement saying le'olam va'ed, and now you need to taysh it. So you're saying, yeah, you need to taysh it based on what you learned throughout Tanya. So I think the question still is, why did Alter Rebbe have to start off like that? Why have to, the Alter Rebbe have to start off defining the benoni like that? Because at the end of the day, if we're talking about that it's relevant for every Yid, e- every Yid, where they're holding now, they need to work on what you're saying, being, having a benoni area, and another benoni area, another benoni area. And you're right, not a moment, because then it's not you, it's just what you're doing, but a benoni area of your life. So, uh, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that like th- basically describing the oved v'lo kim peru kesef?

59:38 Speaker 1 I'm listening. It went a little way.

59:39 Speaker 2 So, you know, a oved v'lo kim is someone who's, who's constantly battling their, their nefesh behamis and constantly growing in their service of Hashem, as opposed to the eved, um, who already conquered that, already mastered that, or the lo yavodai, which is that it's easy for him. Fine. That's-- without getting into the nuances of peru kesef. But the point is oved v'lo kim. So why can't we just define the benoni as the oved v'lo kim? Why can't we just say the benoni is someone who is struggling, but he's... A- and, and, and throughout the peru, the Alter Rebbe makes it very clear. But it's the beginning that throws people off. And, and I, and-

1:00:11 Speaker 1 But lo yavodai is also the benoni.

1:00:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. Exactly. So why can't, wh- why can't the Alter Rebbe just start off, "Labeni hu oved v'lo kim," and describe that situation of oved v'lo kim?

1:00:19 Speaker 1 Because it's not.

1:00:20 Speaker 2 Why not?

1:00:21 Speaker 1 I, I don't hear the... Why, why, yeah.

1:00:23 Speaker 2 Be- because the lo savon lo ya'avor-

1:00:25 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:00:25 Speaker 2 ... sets us up for this problem, sets us up for this question of absolute, like of, of, of, of, of, of, of all or nothing. Doesn't it sound like all or nothing, le'olam va'ed?

1:00:34 Speaker 1 I... Yeah. A- a- again, with a shallow look. But if you, if you read the whole Tanya and you understand we're not talking here... V- v- very simple. Um, pei yud.

1:00:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:00:50 Speaker 1 Tzaddik.

1:00:59 Speaker 2 Correct.

1:00:59 Speaker 1 Not behavior.

1:01:00 Speaker 2 Correct.

1:01:00 Speaker 1 Pei yud alef.

1:01:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, it is behavior.

1:01:09 Speaker 1 So, so the fact that everyone is messed up, not everyone, there's so many people, they're, they're, they're learning it wrong. Don't, don't blame that on Alter Rebbe. And... Alter Rebbe is very clear. Starting from pei yud alef, he's moving away from behavior, and he's telling you it's about a state. What is the state? Of le'olam va'ed. That's what it is. Now, if you're saying that it's too much to accomplish le'olam va'ed my entire life, okay. So start small. Le'olam va'ed this area, le'olam va'ed that area.

1:01:37 Speaker 2 Right. No, so that's exactly my question. So why is Alter Rebbe not allowing us that?

1:01:41 Speaker 1 I don't know. In other words, if you, if you're asking-

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:43 Speaker 1 ... the deeper question-

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Mm

1:01:44 Speaker 1 ... why is it that nowhere in Tanya does Alter Rebbe say explicitly go... But, but, but maybe it's a deeper pashut that-

1:01:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:01:49 Speaker 1 ... this is when, when I'm guiding people on Tanya-

1:01:51 Speaker 2 Right. And yeah, uh-

1:01:52 Speaker 1 But why does it say explicitly, you know what? If you don't... It doesn't, it doesn't have to be everything. Start with something. Why doesn't say that?

1:01:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:01:57 Speaker 1 I don't know.

1:01:58 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:01:58 Speaker 1 It's really simple.

1:01:59 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and I, I told you this before, uh, two years ago, I learned with a Yid from Williamsburg, Tanya, and that was an, that was an amazing experience, um, which you were the

1:02:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:02:14 Speaker 2 ... Still waiting for We learned from 6:00 AM to 6:45 AM every day, Monday through Thursday, and we covered from after Sukkot till Shavuot, so we covered an entire five sefer of Tanya. Obviously, extremely lagersa. It was one of the best chavrusas that I had. Now, obviously, I had to know Tanya enough. It couldn't have been my first time learning Tanya like that to teach it like that. But we, we... There, there were some days we did three perakim in one day, and it was so... I never, ever learned Tanya like that. You know, even Chitas, it's, it's whatever it is, and certainly not in yeshiva. But this is like you, you... Like what you talked about before, the bigger picture. You got to see-

1:02:52 Speaker 1 It's called, it's called bingeing.

1:02:54 Speaker 2 Bingeing. We binged Tanya and, uh, let's, let's binge Tanya. That'll be your next one. So, uh, so the-- So a-and, and, and like I said, you, it s- it gives you a glimpse of the bigger picture, which I think I, for sure I was missing out before I did that. And, uh, after I was on a high, I told my friends, "You have to do this. You have to just sit down and learn Tanya like that, like three perakim at a time." And anyways, so when we got to Periké Beis and we learned the Leolam V'leolam, and of course, you know, I was, I launched on with all the explanations, all the Rebbe sichas, maamar, and, uh, and he asked me, "So why didn't the Alter Rebbe write that?" That... And, and I, and I, sh-it shocked me. Like I'd never thought of that, and it was so... I, I was f- I was dumbfounded. Like, yeah, why didn't the Alter Rebbe write that? Why did the Alter Rebbe... This is again, this is the defining moment of the beginning. It's the climax of Tanya in a certain sense. And Leolam V'leolam, and then we have Tefillin sefer. And again, whether we're gonna Tefillin sefer it the other way, you know, that it's a beginning moment, whether we're gonna end fer- Tefillin sefer it the way you explained it, which I think is, is really, uh, which I think is really true. Um, and, and I wanna get back to that in a second. But

1:03:56 Speaker 2 what... So that, that was his question. Now, that's been bothering me. It's really been bothering me ever since the past few years. Taka, why'd the Alter Rebbe have to write it this far? Now, I teach Gemara for a living, so I know what it means if Rabbi Yonatan writes things cryptic, and we get the same question. Why did Rabbi Yonatan have to write the Mishnah like that? Why couldn't he just explain it the way you explained it? Okay, so that's beautiful. That's easy to answer because, yeah, Rabbi Yonatan wants to write in a way that will get you to break your head and to understand then because Taka, uh, de-dev-dev-dev-dev-devrah kim chaim and, uh, all the answers of the Gemara were all in Rebbe's mind when he wrote it, and not only that, you could say he learned it from Hashem. Hashem wrote the Chumash in the exact same way. Fine. But Tanya's not like that. Tanya is a, a, a, a relevant sefer. Is a relevant sefer, as we've been saying. So I think the question is a lot stronger in Tanya than it is in Mishnayas. Like, why would the Alter Rebbe write it like that and then need to have it, uh, explained?

1:04:48 Speaker 1 So I think that Tanya... So basically, what I'm saying is if, I think if Tanya is learned correctly and properly, the entire time with the focus being on this is about the person as opposed to about a behavior in any given moment. In other words, how many Lubavitchers would answer that question correctly about is it true to say that i- that, that if you do, if you do a, a, um, an averah, you become a rasha? I would think, I think 95% of people who learn Tanya would answer it's correct, and it's not. It's not. Just learn Tanya again. You'll see. Um-

1:05:17 Speaker 2 You gonna explain it?

1:05:18 Speaker 1 You do what you do if you... Because you're, because you're a rasha, you do averas. And it's by the way, they... I'll give an example of this.

1:05:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:05:24 Speaker 1 Okay. Um, is it accurate to say that, um, because, um, because John killed someone, he's a murderer? Sounds, sounds right, no? But it's not.

1:05:39 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:40 Speaker 1 It's not.

1:05:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:41 Speaker 1 He killed someone because he's a murderer. Think about that for a second. Shmuel, can I ask you a personal question?

1:05:46 Speaker 2 Can I ask?

1:05:47 Speaker 1 You ever killed anyone?

1:05:48 Speaker 2 No.

1:05:49 Speaker 1 Why not? Now, think about it. You've ever been angry at someone? You're angry at someone, you pull out a gun, you kill them.

1:05:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:05:53 Speaker 1 Why haven't you killed anyone? You know why? 'Cause you're not a murderer.

1:05:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:58 Speaker 1 If you were a murderer, then you get angry at someone, you kill them. That's what a murderer does. That's, that's the gedar of a murderer, right? So if someone kills someone, it's mekalel, that's what they were. You don't, you don't become... I'm, uh, I'm obviously not talking about if he kills someone, kill someone by mistake.

1:06:12 Speaker 2 No, right, right.

1:06:14 Speaker 1 You know that, right? And leheitch.

1:06:15 Speaker 2 Oh, by the way, this, this explains the sicha of Shegig, why a Shegig is in Sicha Gimel, I believe, of Vayikra. That why a Shegig is, uh, the Asham Talui is more expensive, uh, than the Asham because a person does averah beShegig, it shows where his nefesh is.

1:06:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:06:31 Speaker 2 So I think-

1:06:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

1:06:32 Speaker 2 ... we have a, it's on topic. Yeah.

1:06:33 Speaker 1 And, and to a, a more pleasant example.

1:06:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:06:36 Speaker 1 If you see a poor person and you go, you run, you give him a dollar. Are you a kind person because you gave him a dollar?

1:06:40 Speaker 2 Right. No. It stops it. You, you gave it because you're a kind person.

1:06:43 Speaker 1 That's Tanya. You're not a, you're not a rasha because you did an averah. You did an averah because you're a rasha. Why did, why, why did you do an averah? Because there's an imbalance inside of you. That's what caused it. You couldn't do it otherwise. And once you understand everything that Rebbe's talking about internally, and therefore the journey of Tanya is an internal journey, so we don't make that mistake. Leolam V'leolam, we're obviously we're talking about your state, and we're talking about now because that's what we're talking about.

1:07:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:07:07 Speaker 1 Now, at the same time, I do wanna concede something, which is, I do... I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's a maamar, Vayuchah Yasar Et HaAdam Min HaHeh. You familiar with the maamar?

1:07:17 Speaker 2 A little bit.

1:07:18 Speaker 1 A little bit. Okay. There's a maamar there, which is, by the way, there's probably like, Baruch Hashem, today the Tanya Shalom came out, so it's very easy to, to look up everything. Rebbe, there's probably like ten places where the Rebbe answers this question, where Rebbe addresses this question of Leolam V'leolam. In every single place, the, uh, and we're talking about, uh, starting in, in your Shmas and in Igris and in Sichas and in Maamarim and in letters, right? The Rebbe always says what I said, um, the other way around.

1:07:47 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:07:48 Speaker 1 Good.

1:07:49 Speaker 2 The, uh, uh, the matzav ha'ata.

1:07:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:50 Speaker 2 That based on the way you are now is that-

1:07:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:07:53 Speaker 2 ... it's, the person who did the averah is not you, and you would never do this averah.

1:07:56 Speaker 1 Which is, again, exactly what-

1:07:58 Speaker 2 Leolam V'leolam

1:07:59 Speaker 1 ... but in the context of Tanya, it makes so much sense that it, it's not, it's not a zertal. That's, that's a, that's a-

1:08:04 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:08:04 Speaker 1 ... a deep understanding of what's going on over here, of what, of the whole tzaddik ben yudas situation.

1:08:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:08:10 Speaker 1 Then that's a maamar, Vayuchah Yasara, the Rebbe says, um, suddenly the Rebbe continues on and says, and Rebbe says that you really, you could answer-

1:08:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:08:19 Speaker 1 ... that's matzav ha'ata. The Rebbe's not happy with that, right?

1:08:21 Speaker 2 Ha-ha, nineteen if you wanna check it out.

1:08:24 Speaker 1 What is that? So you tell me

1:08:26 Speaker 2 Well, th-th-that because the Alter Rebbe adds ""So it's more literal that he never did an Aveira."

1:08:34 Speaker 1 So suddenly the Rebbe's reversing course on everything. And "" Also, the Rebbe, the Rebbe adds "" This is, this is-

1:08:44 Speaker 2 That's a similar guy.

1:08:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:45 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:08:46 Speaker 1 Which is very clear, though, the Rebbe's learning "" This is the way the Rebbe's saying it. So "" which I believe is the last time where Isata, which the Rebbe addressed it. Oh. Answer this question. Or maybe there's a Sikha that was mugel later or something, uh-

1:09:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Okay

1:09:01 Speaker 1 ... like a "" I don't know what maybe what was that mugel. The Rebbe talks about it over there.

1:09:06 Speaker 2 That's right.

1:09:06 Speaker 1 You know, they said, you know, the Han HaFatah Sikha about, uh, famous Sikha about, uh, the-

1:09:11 Speaker 2 Oh, of course. The, the, the-

1:09:12 Speaker 1 Kinyan LePi-- Kinyan Le-

1:09:13 Speaker 2 Right. Kinyan DeHakol K'neged Kol.

1:09:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:09:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:09:17 Speaker 1 So there the Rebbe says, suddenly the Rebbe, Rebbe's not so happy with the answer he gave all these years, and the Rebbe gives a new answer, a radical answer that, uh, through Teshuva MeAvah. So therefore, his "" so therefore, you can reach a place where there's no Aveiras Bechel Lamash. It would seem that "" the question that you're asking. So why didn't the Alter Rebbe write it in the way which is a little clearer? So I think that's what the Rebbe's addressing in Mem Hei.

1:09:43 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:09:44 Speaker 1 At the end of the day, you wonder why Taka... E-Even though Poshtut Pshat remains the way that the Rebbe, uh, explained it twenty times. But, uh, why Taka-- Did the Alter Rebbe use such absolute terms to be Meramez? There's something else also, which is at the highest level, the highest aspiration of the Benoni is that you should reach a place of Teshuva MeAvah, where Taka, the Taka was no Aveiras. But I don't think that that Maamar in, in, in, in, in Mem Hei comes to supplant and say, a-and give over a different Poshtut Pshat in Tanya as opposed to everything else the Rebbe said in the earlier, in the early years.

1:10:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So in other words, so if I understand correctly, so the regular understanding of the Benoni r- uh, dealing with his past, in other words, dealing with his problem in Tanya, is that the past happened, but it wasn't you. It wasn't the person that you are now. It wasn't your identity now as a Benoni. And in Mem Hei, the Rebbe is saying that the Benoni could even embrace what happened because Teshuva MeAvah as the Rebbe quotes from the Gemara, Teshuva MeAvah, it uproots the Aveira. I'm sorry. It, it uproots it and transforms it to a m- to a Zechuyes.

1:10:43 Speaker 1 Right.

1:10:43 Speaker 2 To a positive experience, so the Benoni could actually then embrace that experience of the past because it is part of his identity with his Teshuva MeAvah. The-

1:10:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:10:54 Speaker 2 That's the difference.

1:10:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:10:54 Speaker 2 In other words, it's about ignoring the past because the past wasn't you, or is it the past was you, but it's fine because Teshuva MeAvah transforms the past.

1:11:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:11:01 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:11:01 Speaker 1 By the way, practical, Moshe. It's Friday night. You come home, you ate somewhere, and suddenly you realize, "Oh my gosh, the light is off in my bathroom." And you're annoyed. You're very annoyed. So what are the chances you're gonna turn on the light, huh? I'm assuming the answer is somewhere between zero and zero, right? Now imagine someone who's a Baal Teshuvah. I, I don't mean a Baal Teshuvah as in Chassidis, uh, the term Baal Teshuvah, but the colloquial-

1:11:30 Speaker 2 No, literal Baal Teshuvah.

1:11:31 Speaker 1 Not, not, not literal. Not literal Baal Teshuvah. The colloquial, what we call today a Baal Teshuvah.

1:11:36 Speaker 2 That's the literal Baal Teshuvah, no?

1:11:38 Speaker 1 Literal Baal Teshuvah is what I wanna become. So, uh-

1:11:44 Speaker 2 I would say that's the non-literal Baal Teshuvah. That's the-

1:11:47 Speaker 1 Okay. We all, we all do-- We all, we all have Aveiras, except for th-those people who are Benonim, right?

1:11:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:51 Speaker 1 I mean, I have no Teshuvah. There's like a Rebbe, Rebbe of Teshuvah, me not. Like, uh... Anyways. Someone's a... And four weeks ago, he started, he, he decided to start keeping Shabbos.

1:12:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:12:01 Speaker 1 And now they come home, and the light's off. What are the chances they're turning on the light? Much higher, right?

1:12:07 Speaker 2 Correct.

1:12:07 Speaker 1 Four weeks ago, they turn on the light, and the, the, the, and this, the, the, you know, the, to every... It's a mess. They need the... How long does it take for that person to get to-- How long of keeping Shabbos and focus on Shabbos and enjoying Shabbos does it take for them to get to the place where they are just as strong as me and you in that area? Uh, I, I don't know about that exactly.

1:12:32 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

1:12:32 Speaker 1 But, but it's definitely-- But it, it happens. You have people here in Crown Heights, or ma-many, many people walking on the streets, hundreds, thousands of people who are Baal Teshuvahs, so when they were, when they were twenty, they were turning on lights on Shabbos, and today, for them to turn on a light on Shabbos is just as Mufrach as it is for me and you.

1:12:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:12:49 Speaker 1 That's this.

1:12:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:50 Speaker 1 That's this. Le'olam Va'ed. There's a... Th-There is no, there is no Aveira version.

1:12:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:55 Speaker 1 Practical. And we can do that. In other words, the Rebbe's telling you that you can reach a place that not only that you're not doing Aveiras poshit, you don't have, you didn't do Aveiras. It's not, that's not who you are.

1:13:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:06 Speaker 1 And that's, that's pretty incredible. And it-- and if you can't do that in every area of life, yet, start with one area, start with two areas. But you can do that.

1:13:16 Speaker 2 So I wanna, uh, I wanna-

1:13:18 Speaker 1 Dav-- let's say davening with a minyan.

1:13:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:13:20 Speaker 1 An example, right? It's not the sa- the same idea, right? Some people, by them,dikui aver, three times a day. Some people not. And if some person, person is not that kind of person, so, uh, the smallest thing, you know, can, can stop them. What if I wanna become a Ben in that area? I wanna become Le'olam V'le'olam in that area. You can do it. That's the whole point. "" Any area that you want, and Bechol life as a whole, but specifically any area you want, you can reach a place of Le'olam V'le'olam. And that's a very empowering, um, um, idea.

1:13:51 Speaker 2 So it, it, uh, that was a great, uh, finale in a way, and, and I don't wanna ruin that, so I wanna get back to that. But first, back up. You mentioned Tanya Shaalim, and, you know, they, and they collect all the things from older Rebbeim, all the Pirushim from older Rebbeim, mas-- uh, monumental work, um, on Tanya. And when you open that part of Tanya, and you look for wha-what are the explanations about this question, which the Rebbe calls a Kushya Yedua. And there's nothing from the previous Rebbeim. There's nothing from the previous Rebbeim. There's, like you said, there's tens from the Rebbe and all that kind of Matzav HaYata and then the Chiddush of Tashlamim Hei, the Maamar Vayochal Yisroel. And there's... And you dig, and you find the, you know, the Rebbe himself qu-- in his letters quotes Reb Efraim's, Reb Efraim Kahan's answer in a Taryag. So you do the research, and you pull that up. And, um, you've mentioned to me in the past that there's from other Chassidim, Bu-- uh, um, Research Shlome Chaim and Graham, and they, and you said they explain the same way. Matzav HaYata, basically. That the way-

1:14:52 Speaker 1 No.

1:14:52 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:14:53 Speaker 1 No.

1:14:54 Speaker 2 They say that they explain what?

1:14:57 Speaker 1 The, the, the, the, the first answer of Efraim Kahan.

1:14:59 Speaker 2 Oh, that it... The Taryag? That it's, uh, that... Oh, you mean the technical answer, that, that the B-- that he's not describing the Benoni, he's describing not the Tzadik?

1:15:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:07 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Fine. Okay.

1:15:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:08 Speaker 2 So let's leave that alone.

1:15:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:15:08 Speaker 2 That's... Yeah, fine.

1:15:09 Speaker 1 No, no. It's a very-

1:15:10 Speaker 2 It's nice Pshat.

1:15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:10 Speaker 2 It's a nice Pshat.

1:15:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:10 Speaker 2 It's from Diche.

1:15:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:12 Speaker 2 Why? Why is it very Diche? Because this is the defining moment of the Menashe, and you're right, you're telling me I'm not Tzadik. So, uh, okay. Yeah, fine. So whatever. We're, we're playing, uh, like you say, inside baseball. So, uh, so-

1:15:23 Speaker 1 And also, l'chor that we say v'af shel yuaver averah, not v'lo yuaver, v'af.

1:15:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:27 Speaker 1 Right?

1:15:28 Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah, exactly. So let's leave that alone. Whoever, whoever wants to look it up, look it up. But the point is, there's nothing from the earlier Rabbeim, and that struck me very odd. So, it struck me not just odd but disturbing because I'm sure Chassidim had this question before, so did they just rely on their Mashpi'im to discuss it? Which does... That-that's fine with me. That's fine with me. And again, we do have, let's say, you said from Gerer Rebbe, that's, that's already from the Rebbe Shab, right? Um, and so I'm sure there's much b-before that and not documented.

1:16:02 Speaker 1 He discussed the Rasha.

1:16:02 Speaker 2 What?

1:16:03 Speaker 1 The Rebbe himself was discussing Rasha.

1:16:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I understand. I'm saying Mashpi'im from the times in-

1:16:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:16:06 Speaker 2 ... the generation of the Rebbe Shab.

1:16:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:16:07 Speaker 2 And, uh, and, and I'm sure this is from before also, just not documented necessarily. Fine, no problem. So if the answer is that the Mashpi'im-- the local Mashpi'im had to explain to you, if I have Sicha, say, left negative, they don't should be here, whatever. Uh, so then, uh, so then no problem. But it, it's still a little bit interesting to me that none of the previous Rabbeim discussed this. It's not like they don't have on Tanya. The way you're explaining it now, it, it makes actually a little bit more sense, which is that it wasn't... If you learned Tanya right, then you shouldn't... Eh, you could still talk about it, you could farbrengen about it, the Mashpi'im will, will explain it, but it's, it's not a kasha, it's not a kasha. I still... So then the question is, so why by the times of the Rebbe did it become a kasha yedua? We started perverting Tanya, the whole thing.

1:16:43 Speaker 1 No, but I'll tell you also, it's, it's reverse engineering. In other words, am I arrogant enough to say that if not for what I saw, the way the Rebbe's explanation-

1:16:52 Speaker 2 Right

1:16:52 Speaker 1 ... that I would have arrived at that because this is could be lav davka. In other words-

1:16:57 Speaker 2 No problem

1:16:57 Speaker 1 ... it's reverse engineering. After I solved the Rebbe's question-

1:16:59 Speaker 2 Sure

1:17:00 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe's answer, and the same thing that bothered you bothered me, like, the Rebbe's answer seems like a dech.

1:17:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:05 Speaker 1 I thought about it a lot. And then one day, like, as they say in Hebrew, the Simon, how do they say the, the, the talking father.

1:17:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:17:11 Speaker 1 I'm like, "Wow, what the Rebbe's saying here is so deep based on everything." Uh, so I worked backwards. They didn't have the Rebbe's answer, so I don't know if they were, you know-

1:17:20 Speaker 2 No, so what, so what, so what, what about the Rabbeim? Mm-hmm. Okay. But okay, so then, so, so to finish it off in a, in a more practical... I mean, not to finish it off, but the next question is, uh, not to go back into history and analyze history, but the... What you're saying, I think, is actually monumental in teaching Tanya. So my question to you is, if someone was starting to learn Perkei Avos or teach Perkei Avos, how would you say it's absolutely crucial to introduce Perkei Avos? Not only to answer this question, so... And, and not only to, like, answer in a way that the, that the, the person learning it might even know the question and he's waiting to pounce the question and you're gonna Bavarian the question he shouldn't even ask in the first place. But how would you introduce Perkei Avos that he should, that the student or the teacher should have the correct hanacha, which as you're saying is the, is the, is really the whole idea of Tanya, of Sefer Shulchan Aruch. W-how would you frame it? So-

1:18:23 Speaker 1 If you got through-

1:18:24 Speaker 2 And you did it-

1:18:24 Speaker 1 If you got through Pirkei Gidalef, then you shouldn't have a problem with Pirkei Avos. Let me explain to you why. 'Cause if, if you got through Pirkei Gidalef and the fact that someone who does mitzvahs ninety-nine point nine percent of the time and does an averah zero point... Once every six months does an averah kalah is called a Rasha, how did you explain that?

1:18:49 Speaker 2 It's not me then.

1:18:51 Speaker 1 Oh. Well, uh, but once you understand we're not talking about behavior, 'cause in behavior such a person is befedir Shel Tzadik.

1:19:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:00 Speaker 1 Befedir Shel Tzadik. And therefore, when you go out in the world and someone say: "What do you mean I'm a Rasha?" You say: "What do you mean? Well, I always thought a Rasha do, do, do mostly... Is mostly, is mostly averos. I'm not mostly averos." The answer to that person is, "You're right. You're farkheyrte Tzadik."

1:19:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:19:15 Speaker 1 And it's true. In the, in this, in, in, in the scale or the use by Chazal and, and the same Hamushol, which is absolutely used by Chazal because they're, they're a Tzadik. The Rebbe's introducing something deeper, which is Tzadik Ben Yochanan is talking about the Nefesh. And therefore, the fact that a person does an averah once, what does that tell you? There's an imbalance in the Nefesh. He called a Rasha. Why? Because it's the definition of a Rasha, is someone who has that internal imba-imbalance. So once you... I-if, if you're able to explain Pirkei Gidalef, that it should make sense, then but you're, you're ready on your way to Pirkei Avos making sense.

1:19:47 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:19:47 Speaker 1 But if you don't... I-if you're looking at Tzadik and Be... A Rasha and Ben Yochanan behaviorally, then how did you explain, how did you explain Pirkei Gidalef?

1:19:53 Speaker 2 Right. And you were, uh, still getting bothered by the question like, "So how? So we're Rashaim?"

1:19:58 Speaker 1 But besides the fact, how did you teach Pirkei Gidalef how the Shayach? How does Shayach to say that someone, who again, we're talking about a Yid who is a Shomer mitzvahs and, uh, everything, and once every three months or six months he's, uh, a chet, uh, you know, he, he fails, he does Bitul Torah for two minutes or says, uh, uh, a shame Lashen Hara, right? That's a Rasha?

1:20:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:18 Speaker 1 How's that possible?

1:20:19 Speaker 2 See, I said before, the Bashert are totally comfortable with that.

1:20:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, but that's a different-

1:20:22 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:20:22 Speaker 1 That's a, that's a different, uh-

1:20:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. Right

1:20:26 Speaker 1 So if, uh, we're basically saying if you, if you were on the right path until you get it, once you get it, this is just the cherry on top of the-

1:20:31 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:32 Speaker 1 ... top of the, top of the ice.

1:20:33 Speaker 2 And I, I think it ties back to what you're saying about the important maturity to learn Tanya. And, and I think also because now all of a sudden the, in a way, the Avodah Tanya became more philosophical. Because, and like you said, clearly, that Tanya is not trying to... It's not a farbrengen in the sense of trying to encourage you to do Torah mitzvahs. It's not, it's not here to encourage you to keep Torah mitzvahs. That, that's what Shulchan Aruch is for, that's what Torah is for, to c- to encourage you to do mitzvahs.

1:20:59 Speaker 1 That's what Hagadah is for. It's inspiration.

1:21:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:01 Speaker 1 Tanya is about transformation. In a very deep way.

1:21:03 Speaker 2 Right. Which, which starts off as a philosophy, and therefore, the ability to connect that to the relevant part takes maturity and takes the patience. And I think we said also about seeing the bigger picture, where's Alter Rebbe heading with this whole discussion, and then we can appreciate what's... But at the same time, it's relevant because like you're saying, not the Be'ei Nei moments, but the Be'ei Nei areas. To take that deep philosophy and to translate into one area of your life and then another area of your life.

1:21:34 Speaker 1 Anyways, for all those who are going to be listening to this podcast, the many, many, many tens of thousands of people, um, so I'm sure many of them are gonna say, "But there's a story about Reb Nissan."

1:21:46 Speaker 2 Yeah, with the...

1:21:47 Speaker 1 "There's a story about Reb Nissan."

1:21:48 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:21:50 Speaker 1 So first of all-

1:21:50 Speaker 2 Just say it.

1:21:51 Speaker 1 Uh, they say, they say, they say that there was a k-kid asked, well, maybe it's someone... One of his ainuk or someone asked Reb Nissan that, "How can... How is it trying to be a Be'ei Nei?" So Reb Nissan says, "Can you be, can you Be'ei Nei for the next two minutes?" The kid said, "Yeah." Reb Nissan say, "Okay." So two minutes after that, two minutes after that-

1:22:06 Speaker 2 That's the Be'ei Nei moment smoker. That's... Yeah.

1:22:10 Speaker 1 So a few things. Number one... Oh, okay.

1:22:14 Speaker 2 Exactly.

1:22:15 Speaker 1 And if it is a true story, and... But I'm sorry, I learned Tanya. I understand... I mean, I am sorry if that sounds a little... But that's not what Tanya says. So the story is, is it's not as if it's a mesorah min hashamaynah. And, um, I think Tanya is very clearly... That's not what Tanya is, and it's not what the Be'ei Nei is. That's number one. Number two, who said the story is true? Number three, even if it is true-

1:22:36 Speaker 2 I like how that was number two.

1:22:36 Speaker 1 What?

1:22:37 Speaker 2 I like how that was number two.

1:22:38 Speaker 1 No, no.

1:22:38 Speaker 2 Not number one.

1:22:39 Speaker 1 It is.

1:22:39 Speaker 2 Like, yeah.

1:22:39 Speaker 1 Because even if it is true, I'm not his fault.

1:22:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:22:42 Speaker 1 But number three is that he was speaking to a little kid.

1:22:45 Speaker 2 Right. That's it. Yeah.

1:22:46 Speaker 1 A little kid, little kid. And maybe that's what the 10-year-old kid was able to make up.

1:22:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:49 Speaker 1 Um...

1:22:50 Speaker 2 Yeah. I think that's the, the most important answer of the three answers that-

1:22:54 Speaker 1 No. The first answer is the most correct answer.

1:22:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:22:56 Speaker 1 No, I'm serious.

1:22:57 Speaker 2 Why?

1:22:57 Speaker 1 Because if you learn Tanya, that's what it says. You... The fact that you hear a story about Reb Nissan, it doesn't... It shouldn't change it. In other words-

1:23:03 Speaker 2 Right. But-

1:23:03 Speaker 1 It shouldn't, uh-

1:23:04 Speaker 2 Right. You say that that's what he tells a little kid, and then you need to know what the other answer is. That's, uh... Yeah. In, in, in the, in the, in the bigger picture of Tanya, how does this relate to the, the feelings that a Be'ei Nei goes through? In other words, uh, how is that not like talking about identity? Isn't that... Or is that... In other words, once Alter Rebbe defines what the Be'ei Nei is, which we're saying is much more of an identity, then the way the Alter Rebbe goes into the feelings that a Be'ei Nei, isn't that more, so to speak, behavioral, so to speak, more self-help in the sense of, uh, of trying to... And, and I don't think there's a problem if yes.

1:23:43 Speaker 1 Um, which feelings are you talking about though?

1:23:45 Speaker 2 The... The chaf, chafe, chavav, and on.

1:23:47 Speaker 1 That's troubleshooting. That's because in order to attain a sta-that, that status, there can be... Those, uh, negative emotions can be a problem for that. That's a topic for another day.

1:23:56 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's troubleshooting.

1:23:59 Speaker 1 You know, people, they struggle, and they're like, "What? I'm struggling. Are you gonna help me? How are you gonna help me?" What Alter Rebbe is saying is, "You can become a different person," and you could. It's very different than saying, "I'm gonna teach you how to, to white-knuckle." You ever heard the expression white-knuckle?

1:24:16 Speaker 2 No.

1:24:16 Speaker 1 It's in, uh, recovery. Uh, willpower. You know, uh, the... Tanya is much more than that. Tanya is actually, you can become a person of the Ohev Avot VeImot. Can you imagine that? But again, don't imagine that in everything-

1:24:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:24:32 Speaker 1 ... because then you're... Be-be-be-because then it becomes a little too, uh, too, too much. You're, you're biting off too much.

1:24:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:38 Speaker 1 But imagine an area in which you struggle, and if you know that Tanya can help you become to a place of the Ohev Avot VeImot in that area, that's powerful stuff. That's not only that behavior, uh, uh, control. It's... We're talking about something much deeper, and that's where derech haluchah and derech eretz comes in. Derech haluchah, derech eretz are transformational, um, uh, um, um, um, tools.

1:25:03 Speaker 2 Nice.

1:25:06 Speaker 1 Hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did.

1:25:08 Speaker 2 Absolutely. Absolutely.

1:25:10 Speaker 1 And we'll, uh, we'll take this topic again some other time.

1:25:11 Speaker 2 There's too many... There, there were way too many things there that we said is for another time, so yeah.

1:25:15 Speaker 1 That's right. Jot it all down and, uh- ... take notes and we'll do this some other time.

1:25:19 Speaker 2 Thank you, Rav.