כשכל השאלות נעלמות – הרב שלומי שטרנברג

00:00 Speaker 1 There's times when the Rebbe's bringing the Eishes to us, and he's bringing down Elokus in more of a practical way, and that's more in Igress and in Sichas. And there's some times where the Rebbe tells us, "Come with me to where I go. Come with me to Vuleg Ich, what, what am I into?" And I'm into Olam Hazohrim. I'm, I'm into Olam of Shlif Netzimtzim. I'm into Es Esphiras Agnusis. I'm into Es Esphiras Datzilus. I'm into Es Pshutim. I'm into Es Meterm. That's, that's my life. That's where I live.

00:38 Speaker 2 Shalom aleichem.

00:41 Speaker 1 Aleichem shalom.

00:59 Speaker 2 Today I have the zechus of sitting with Rabbi Aishelami Sternberg, mashpia in Chevevei Zal, I believe.

01:07 Speaker 1 That's right.

01:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, um, there's a lot I would love to discuss with you. For the sake of the audience, and maybe also for your sake, I'll tell you what, uh-- I mean, you're a normal mashpia, and, uh, you've been around already when I was a bachur. Um, I wasn't in your class. But I once walked into a farbrengen, nit as kislev, in one of the shuls here in Crown Heights. I was right after another farbrengen, so it was very late. It was towards the end of the farbrengen. And it was a farbrengen for, uh, a shul of a nash. It wasn't bachurim. And you were farbrengening. It was like the, it was like the, the part of the farbrengen where tameish, there's a small crowd, and it's, you know, it's geshmak. And you were farbrengening about learning Chassidus. And you were, you were moaning. You were very, very expressive that learning Chassidus is not a, it's not a, uh, self-help, you know, uh, journey. Um, of course, everyone knows that Chassidus has all the answers and, and, you know, and this is, uh, a tremendous benefit that you get from learning Chassidus. You get clarity in many areas of life. But you were, you were expressing that, that first and foremost, Chassidus is-- not first and foremost, that Chassidus is a limud of Hashem. It's a limud of Elokus. You're learning about Hashem, and n- you don't have to make it practical. You don't have to make it meaningful and relevant. Um, if I remember correctly,

02:33 Speaker 2 the example you gave was like, "You're learning about Atzilus? You learn about Atzilus. Immerse yourself in Atzilus. Dive into Atzilus. What, what is it-- why does it have to be negeah to your shul and bayis?" I think that was an example you used. Why does it have to be negeah to your, uh, to your, to your life? Y- y- you find something that's meaningful, that's relevant. First of all, ma toiv. Second of all, yes, it's probably there on purpose. Like, it's, of course, meaningful. But that's not your, that's not your goal. That's not your, that's not the point of learning Chassidus. And I, I, I pushed that tremendously. Um, I, uh, we-- and we got into a very, very geshmake farbrengen. I don't even think you knew who I was, 'cause I remember at the end you, uh, you asked me for my name. Um, it was a very, very geshmake farbrengen. We, we went at it for a good hour, uh, just, uh, arguing about this point. I was saying that I think inherently, in order for Chassidus to be, to be meaningful, in order for Chassidus to be relevant and practic- practical for the person, not practical, but relevant for the person, in-- the person needs to start off with a certain interest, with a certain, like, this is talking to me. I was timing that, uh, people are biased and subjective by nature. So there needs to be a bayin, there needs to be a connection that they feel, um, in order

03:51 Speaker 2 for it to be meaningful. And you were timing that. And, uh, it was a, it was a geshmake farbrengen. Now, this was a wh-- uh, many years ago. Since then, I've, uh, I've-- since then, I've learned a maimar, um, Vechol Banai Chachamim Al Af Inloket. And over there, the Rebbe s-- I'm going straight into, like, the, the-- I mean, you, you can start from whichever angle you want. This is my, uh-- we did not practice this. I, uh, um, the Rebbe over there says that-- the Rebbe quotes the Tanya of, that, that the Alter Rebbe says f-fundamentally that Chassidus is a mitzvah ramah v'nisah, u'meviya v'eil halvana, u'meviya v'eil halvim, that Chassidus is a tremendously lofty mitzvah, and it brings to a complete heart, which is the basic Lashon used for that Chassidus makes a person tameim, makes a person be able to serve Hashem, avdei avodah. So the Rebbe over there splits it up. The Rebbe says there's two yinonim here. There's Chassidus as a mitzvah ramah v'nisah, and then there's, there's Chassidus as meviya v'eil halvim. Meviya v'eil halvim is the birurim that Chassidus accomplishes. The mitzvah ramah v'nisah is how-- is Chassidus by i-i-itself is lamad u'mi birurim. Lamad u'mi is sl- it's shaloi b'derech hislapshos, the Lashon of the Rebbe. It's shaloi b'derech hislapshos. And the, and the fact that there is birurim that comes from Chassidus is, is basically, the Rebbe is basically saying is not the main point. The-- in, in, in its highest form, Chassidus is lamad u'mi

05:10 Speaker 2 birurim, and it's mitzvah ramah v'nisah, which is, which is basically your, your vart. In fact, uh, my teachers, as a curriculum to my students in Mesivta, um, and I'll tell you, uh, um, we have a-- I've, I made a booklet of Toras Chassidus, what Chassidus is all about. And part of it, I go into this topic, and then I quote the maimar, and I tell them this story. I, I don't say your name, but I say it was a big mashpia who was at farbrengen, and I argued, and I said, "This maimar is, is proving his point." So how do we fit this together with, uh, with, with everything we've learned till then from the Kotit HaBoren and from the Frieda Kireba, that if you learn Chassidus and it's not, and, and it's not negeah l'avodah, you missed the whole point of Chassidus. The whole point of Chassidus is le, le, um, le, v-, um, le, you know, um, to be, to be, um, l'shanas tzidus midosav. Um, so that's the whole point of Chassidus. How does that work together? Fine. So that's-- so I have my pitch for them. I have my, my, my, uh, my idea. That's, that's the opening. So first of all, it's always in my memory as a Gishnol Chaf Bringin, so I knew that I definitely wanted to, to have a conversation with Chaf Bringin with you about this topic, about Chassidus in general. Um, and I guess that's, that's not my starting question, but that's my opening, uh,

06:20 Speaker 2 that's my introduction. Um, okay, let's take it from there.

06:25 Speaker 1 Okay, so I'm happy to hear that someone remembers something from a Chaf Bringin.

06:28 Speaker 2 Absolutely.

06:30 Speaker 1 So l'chaim.

06:30 Speaker 2 L'chaim.

06:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't remember exactly what I was saying then, but I'll tell you what's on my mind. We're coming from Yut Askis Liv.

06:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:44 Speaker 1 And it's something that's always on my mind, the two sides of this. And I don't know if I was focusing on that this is-- that there's the Birurim and there's Yiddias Hashem. I think the greatest Birur is when we're uplifted by talking about the Ibrishtar and not talking about ourselves. I think we could put it this way, you know, just like the Rebbe, uh, sends us on meftzoim, sends us on shlichas, and there's most of the time we're bringing the Rebbe to the world, and then there's some times when we bring the world to the Rebbe. When we bring Balvatim to the Rebbe, bring Yidden to seven seventy, bring Yidden to the oil, and back in the day, bring Yidden to Fabregin, bring Yidden to, to, to see the Rebbe himself. And everyone understands that as impactful as it is when a Shliach brings the Rebbe to his community, the real change in his mekarev is when he can bring them to the Rebbe, and that's when they become a Chassidim.

07:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:53 Speaker 1 The transformation is when they come to the Rebbe. And I think when the Rebbe is the Shliach to us, he does the same thing. There's times when the Rebbe is bringing the Ibrishtar to us, and he's bringing down Elokos in more of a practical way, and that's more in Igress and in Sichas. And there's some times where the Rebbe tells us, "Come with me to where I go. Come with me to vulig ich, what, what am I into?" And I'm into Olam HaZoyrim, I'm, I'm into Olam Shofshlif Neitzimtzim, I'm into Es Esphiras Agnusis, I'm into Es Esphiras Datzilus, Areus Pshtim, Areus Miterm. That's, that's my life. That's where I live. That's my Rebbe. And come with me. And as powerful as it is that Chassidus has the answers to all of our questions, and it does, and, um, Chassidus can change our lives and change our middas and enhance our marriage and Ben Adam Lechaverei and Ben Adam Le'atmai. Amazing. As amazing as it is that Shlochim bring the Rebbe to their communities. But the real transformation of becoming a Chassidus Yid is from being into Chassidus, the way Chassidus is talking about the Ibrishtar and not into Chassidus the way Chassidus is talking about me. And that's also in Lashanis Tevhamideis and changing us and changing our mahus and changing our identity. Like he grew a beard and he put on a kapota. You know, he went from being a Balabat Hasid to Chassidus Hasid. I don't think that could ever happen from someone

09:36 Speaker 1 getting an eitza from Chassidus about his marriage or about his anxiety or about his depression. I think that happens when he starts being into higher things as opposed to lower things.

09:49 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:51 Speaker 1 And, and that, that's a shinim mina katza lakatza. That changes our identity, a change of address. I'm a Chassidus Hasid, I'm not into Olam Haz, I'm into higher things. And that's besides Yiddias Hashem, which is a mitzvah of Neatzma, the shinui, the change of, uh, of the person. I think there's a greater change from the koch in Elokos. And that's Kveve Bracha Latmai. I think that's the main nekuda of Chassidus, you know, of picking us up. And, um, rather it's, I think, I, I believe it's Tav Shen Lamid. The Rebbe's talking about the difference between the Chassidus of the Baal Shem Tov and the Chassidus of the Alter Rebbe, the kitrug on Torah of Baal Shem Tov and the kitrug on the Alter Rebbe. The famous question, the Alter Rebbe already took care of the kitrug by saying to save the Ben Hamalech, we need to grind the Even Sheva Kasra Melech, the gem. So why was there a kitrug on the Alter Rebbe? So the Rebbe says the Alter Rebbe's Chassidus was not to save the Ben Hamalech. And to say that the Alter Rebbe's Chassidus is to save the Ben Hamalech is like saying the Matan Torah was to heal the blind.

11:10 Speaker 2 Mm.

11:11 Speaker 1 There were never blind people. We needed to help them and save them, so there's Matan Torah to save the blind people. No, that was completely a side perk that, that happened to be that the sick were healed, the blind were, were healed.

11:25 Speaker 2 The Rebbe makes this comparison?

11:26 Speaker 1 The Rebbe makes this comparison. And the Rebbe says, "Chassidus is Agili of Mashiach. Chassidus is picking us up to the Emes of Elokos, a mein of Lasid Lave, when then there's only going to be that we're going to be completely on a higher level, living a higher life. So to pick us up a mein of Agul Adika life, that's what Chassidus is." And this was the whole kitrug, to pick up Anashim Kerkeinu, simple peoples on Ligin Hecher should, should be citizens of, of Atzilus, should be citizens of Areus of Shlif Neatzimtzim. So that was Yut Askis Liv, that was the N'tzach of Yut Askis Liv, and Ken, Ken Zechu Feiv in Abisl.

12:04 Speaker 2 Great. So, so I hear what you're saying. It's, uh, I'm, I'm just gonna repeat it in my words to see if I, see if I got it. That there's, you know, what, what, there's, there's the chassidus that talks more directly to the person. Uh, I'll, I'll use the word mata l'maila. I think that's the idea. Like, like you said, like address or like a sicha where the person-- where the Rebbe's like, the, the address is the person's problem, and then there's chassidus coming to help that. And then there's, I would say, l'maale l'mata where the, where chassidus is, is coming down as a gibor of chassidus, of pure halachos, and automatically that changes the person. Automatically that lifts the person up to the chassidus is coming from l'maale l'mata, and with that it, it, uh, rebounds and it, uh, and it makes the person a better person.

12:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:52 Speaker 2 It, it changes the person to, um... Like I said, it's, it's, it's a sh- it's davka. I think we're saying is like davka that makes a shinoi. In other words, the first way, mata l'maila, can maybe make a tikkun, can maybe fix something that's negative. But to totally transform the person into someone that's, uh, different, that's not, that's not a, a, a sechel nashim behamas or neshas tivus, and to start thinking with a sechel nashim bekis, that is only when the person immerses themselves in the chassidus that's, that's not, that's beyond his own, you know, frame, uh, you know, uh, perspective.

13:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

13:26 Speaker 2 So I, I, um, when, when you're describing that, it's, it's, uh, the-- what came to mind is like the, what we hear about the Mitler Rebbe's chassidim, like that, that tkufa where two things. Number one, like we, we know about like the Mitler Rebbe's saying chassidus hours on end average, like no, nothing to talk about. You know, uh, sha- three lamar on a Shabbos, and then, uh, what was it, sixteen, eighteen, eighteen hours of limer once, uh. And, and the chiddush was that the chassidim stood for eighteen hours or whatever the number is. And that was a culture that was by the Mitler Rebbe, the Mitler Rebbe built. Yeah, so we hear that. Then we hear the o- so to speak, the other side of it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand is that, um, the Mitler Rebbe's chassidim were davka, a lot of them were very prushde people. I mean, we have the famous example of, um, of, um, of, you know, of, um, like, um, who the Mitler Rebbe wrote in Rabino for. Um, Isaac Hummler? No. No, no, no.

14:26 Speaker 1 You must be getting closer to my age. Okay.

14:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. That who he, he, that, that, you know, we look at him as a massive chassid and everything and, and, and he, and he was davka a very simple person. It says that it, it was, it was, uh, it was, um, confirmed by the Rebbe that he had simple kochas, simple chushim, and the, the chassidus prushde developed him. And that's an extreme example. Then we have Nim and like a whole story to it. But, um, but the-- but bechalal, I mean, they were farmers. They were ch- chances are they weren't, they weren't tzadikim. They weren't, uh, people that, that could naturally sit and hear a limer. And the Mitler Rebbe's limer are, are right? And this, this totally changed the, the, the conversation. This totally changed the thing. Now, now, okay, so what? So that, you know, so it's only in time the Rebbe? Of course not. But as that, as that, um, as that relates to us, it's also, it sounds like we're describing is more like the life of a bachur. Um, and, and you're a mashpia in yeshiva, so it's fair to say. You know, like, uh, a bachur in yeshiva, he's learning halacha there, three hours of the chassidus with a mashpia who's guiding him, who's helping him. And those are his transformational years anyway. Uh, anyway, also. And, and yes, hopefully if done right, if done properly with the mashpia, then the bachur could actually become like a different, a mamesh, a different neshama. What about a balebos? What about

15:44 Speaker 2 a balebos who's sitting and learning chassidus and, you know, even if he has his kviutus, you know, few, few minutes in the morning, whatever it is, and, and Shabbos morning a little bit longer. It's harder to-- I, I, I say this every, every conversation. It's, uh, depending on when this is being released, it might be a cliché already. But this is not a chassidus podcast. It's not a podcast for chassidus for bachur. It's for everyone. It's for all chassidim. So for bachurim, I see this as being like a mission statement. Learn chassidus and just dive into it. A balebos, e- even a good balebos, meaning a balebos who-- what I mean by good is like he got a down path and he made himself a kviutus. He made has a chavrusa. He goes to a shiur. He listens to the podcast, the chassidus shiur and whatever, and, uh, Shabbos morning, et cetera. How is he supposed to dive into that mindset? It's a lot harder, I think, for a balebos to be able to, to learn chassidus in that kind of, um, subme- immersive way that it could really penetrate him and change him. Chances are it's gonna be, I don't wanna say a quick fix, but it's gonna be more like, uh, you know, you learn a limer. There's a beginning, there's an end, and there's an inspiration. There's a, you know, and obviously he's gonna have to put in the work and he's gonna have to think about it and daven with it

16:51 Speaker 2 and halayva. But is that, is that, uh, is that-- I don't wanna say it's possible. Is it possible? Of course it's possible. But is it practical? Is it, is that a, is that a way that a balebos could, um, imagine his life of learning chassidus?

17:13 Speaker 1 You know, there's, uh, in Tanya, there's the tzadik and there's the beinyoni. And, um, if you wanna compare them now to, to a bachur and the yungerman in a way. Now, the bachur is living in yeshiva all day, and the beinyoni experiences that during davening. So during davening is his tzadik moment.

17:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

17:38 Speaker 1 So the rest of the day he's white-knuckling it, he's fighting. And once a day or three times a day, he has the experience of a tzadik. He has, he has the real thing. Now, why is that so important? Why can't a beinyoni just daven with Kabbalah so it'll daven like a beinyoni? Who says a beinyoni has to daven like a tzadik?

18:01 Speaker 2 You're asking like even the Vart and like Tanya, like-

18:03 Speaker 1 What's Shat and Tanya? Why, why does a beinyoni have to daven like a tzadik?

18:07 Speaker 2 Like why is that such a important part of the description of a beinyoni?

18:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and if he davens Pirkei Sh'moneh Esreh and he says every word and he thought what he was saying, he was yetzer the mitzvah. He is a Shulchan Aruch. The beinyoni is a Shulchan Aruch. Why does he have to feel- That feel most , at least a taste of it during davening. Why is it a requirement? And there's different, there's different . I think the practical pshat is that practically, we're not saying this is a requirement. Oh, if today you didn't daven like a, like a tzadik, you're not a baal teshuvah. You, you failed. Practically, you can't white-knuckle day in, day out. You can't fight day in, day out when you don't know why you're fighting. When you're not picking yourself up to that higher place, or you're looking at all your struggles, and laughing at them and saying, "They're so silly." Like, "Why is that even a struggle for me?" If you never pick yourself up to that place, you're not going to win every battle. Practically, it's not gonna happen. And therefore, even the baal teshuvah needs to feel like a tzadik once in a while. If it's once a day or once a week, if it's Shabbos davening, if it's, if it's one ti-once a month. You can't live without that. You can't survive all the without a moment of of, of . It's all stupid. And I think that's the same nekuda when we're talking about learning Chassidus. It's not about kamus of how many hours. It's about pick myself

19:43 Speaker 1 up to a higher world. You know, people are, are very into that the Alter Rebbe says that Tanya has all the answers to all your questions.

19:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

19:52 Speaker 1 And where exactly is the answer to my question in this ma'amar that's talking about das elyon and das tachton, the three levels of ? And I think the answer to that is that no, those ma'amarim are not answering your questions. Those ma'amarim are changing your questions.

20:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:10 Speaker 1 Now, your question is not, "So how do I deal with the fact that my wife burnt my, my dinner?" Your, your question is, "Why do I have to eat to begin with? What am I doing in this world, Becholal?" Like, "What's tuich, though? Like, like, what am I doing here?"

20:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

20:28 Speaker 1 So that's a different, that's a different type of answering my question. Not with validating my question, saying, "Yes, but..." and here's the answer, which maximum that's going to be bit la'esh of my question. My s- my question stays a very good question. It's like if, uh, if I, a bachur comes to his rosh yeshiva after the shiur with a to slug up the shiur, right? So if, if the rosh yeshiva spends a half hour fixing up the shiur to answer his question, his question was answered, but his question still stayed a good question. He's not ashamed of his question. He's ready to publicize his question. If it took the rosh yeshiva a half hour to answer it, my question's a good question.

21:09 Speaker 2 Right.

21:10 Speaker 1 My position is a valid position. But if you come to the rosh yeshiva and he laughs and tells you, "I guess you need taitsis with nekudos, because you, you misread the source you're quoting," then you're ashamed of your question. You're, you're not publicizing it in your name.

21:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:30 Speaker 1 And that's the same thing. Our, our, our, our questions need to be answered. They, they could be answered in different ways. They could be answered, "Yes, that-that's, that's a valid question, but you have to work on yourself and refine yourself. And if you do this, and if you think that, you're this, that. Even when you get insulted, you'll control yourself, or you won't get so insulted," which is very important. And we have to talk about that. That's . But I think what's less discussed today, and there is, there is, I don't want to call it an obsession, but there's, there's a koch in where is Chassidus answering my question? And we might be forgetting the main point, which is Chassidus showing us you don't have a question. The question's a different question. And, um, that answers the question of bitul hamatzis. Not bit la'esh, it's bitul hamatzis.

22:20 Speaker 2 Right.

22:24 Speaker 1 I think, I think even for, and especially perhaps for someone that's not constantly in yeshiva and has that much time to have the ichus of that kind of dive in. Right now, there is this ma'amar, and it's not, you know, a hit and run. I come Shabbos and learn a piece of this ma'amar, and then I come next Shabbos, learn a piece of that ma'amar. To have a ma'amar Chassidus that I'm, that I'm getting back to and learning it more loimek and more loimek and more loimek, that I'm being uplifted into this, into the ma'amar. And not just bringing the ma'amar down to me, but picking myself up into the ma'amar.

23:01 Speaker 2 Could it happen if, uh... I'm saying practically, like, is that gonna happen when, uh, uh, someone just has a little bit of time in the week to learn Chassidus? Like, you know, a balabos who doesn't have that much time. Can he learn for half an hour? Half an hour is generous. Can he learn for five minutes a day, ten minutes a day, you know, and then Shabbos a little bit more, and, and that's gonna happen? It's like by the time, by the time you mentally put yourself into, into the ma'amar, five minutes, it's already done. Like-

23:29 Speaker 1 And, you know, in, in, in five minutes you need a Tylenol.

23:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:32 Speaker 1 Uh, so, so maybe then you hear an inspirational five-minute, uh, drasha from someone that might tickle you. Um, but real limud Chassidus, I think the minimum, you know, the minimum is, is a half hour to get into something. And if it's not something new every time, there's your ma'amar you're getting back to, and you're chazering a ma'amar again and again and again, getting deeper and deeper into it, or it's your hemshacha you're learning. So you're connecting again with where you were last week or where you were a few days ago or yesterday.

24:05 Speaker 2 Right. In, in, in Becholal, the earlier Rebbeim probably had, you know, I would say a lot more and maybe even, like, only the Chassidus that... Not, not only, of course not only, but a lot more of that type of Chassidus that was giving you a new velt, a new world. Uh, besides where, I mean, before you said about, like, igros and sichas versus ma'amarim. So for sure, you know, from the earlier Rebbeim, at least we don't have, we don't know of, um, sichas, you know?

24:36 Speaker 1 Right.

24:37 Speaker 2 Before the Rabbi Shabbatai Shna, I mean, you know, maybe here and there. But, um, even in ma'amarim, like, by the Rebbe, like, every ma'amar ends off with hayah. Like, uh, and, and maybe not in the words hayah, but every ma'amar ends... I shouldn't say every, but most ma'amarim end with bringing it a little bit more, you know, connecting it back to the parsha or to the time of year, the Yom Tov, in a way that's like, um, ma'aseh b'payot or, or if even if it's not a ma'aseh b'payot, like a sicha. Um, the earlier Rebbeim, I'm saying the, the ma'amar, even if it's the ma'amar on the parsha, but, like, you know, it's clearly just an excuse and, like, you know, just, uh, the first three lines and the last one line is, is connecting it back to the Parshah.

25:20 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

25:20 Speaker 2 So in a-- I mean, in a way it seems like the Rebbe was trying to do that in a, in a way. Like, trying to connect the Chassidus back to the person's life. Um, not that it wasn't an immersive experience. There's the whole meat of the Ma'amar and Fekart, like the Rebbe's Ma'amar, and no one's gonna s-- it would be foolish to say that they're simple, that they're, that they're easier. Not at all. But there's almost like, i-can we say that the Rebbe was trying to, um, make Chassidus a little bit more practical, make Chassidus a little bit more relevant, even in the depth of Chassidus numbers, kept... You know, it was, um, um, let me, um, re-- let me rephrase the question. When you learn the Rebbe, Rebbe, a Hemshach Rebbe Shab, right? You, you're not really gonna be able to pause even at the end of the Ma'amar and say like, "Okay, what was the lesson of this Ma'amar? What was the takeaway of this Ma'amar?" Uh, i-in, in, in Avodah. Not going to do that. Now, not that it's impossible because, you know, there's always like the, the, what, what it connects to in Avodah. But definitely not in the Ois of this Ma'amar. There's no takeaway in Avodah, at least not apparent. But the Rebbe, it's almost like every Ma'amar, the Rebbe wants it to be very tangibly, uh, uh, a connection to Ma'aseh B'payo, or a connection to fe-feelings of B'payo, whatever. But the point is the connection to B'payo,

26:43 Speaker 2 connection to this world. Eh, we could talk about the Rebbe Shabi, we could talk about the Rebbe Tachtami. I'm sure there's, you know, many great Ois why. But in, in, in practical Ois, it seems like the Rebbe wants it to always have a, a entry point into Ma'aseh B'payo, no? Like, uh...

27:03 Speaker 1 So first of all, if we're going to, you know, we, we could sit here and start, you know, measuring how much hascal and how much avodah-

27:11 Speaker 2 Right

27:12 Speaker 1 ... there is in the Rebbe's Ma'amar compared to the previous Rebbeim, I, I would argue and say there's more avodah in the Ma'amar of the previous Rebbeim, where there are Ma'amarim that are talking about us. Let's take the Fridi Rebbe's Ma'amar where-- this Ma'amar where he's drilling it in. Um, and the whole Ma'amar is talking about you.

27:33 Speaker 2 Right.

27:36 Speaker 1 You know, we have on one hand Ma'amarim that are that way, um, from the Rebbe. And most of the Ma'amarim, the Rebbe's talking the, the deepest in Yonom Chassidus. More abstract, straight to atzmus, right? Straight to Lifnei Atzmut. Um, more in, in ratio of, of jumping straight there, more than the previous Rebbeim. And definitely less explanation of the concepts to us and more into the concept itself, into the depth of the concept. So there is more of a connection to Ma'aseh Shevo'ah. Um, there are Ma'amarim that by the end are mourning something. Um, but not that the Chassidus itself is being translated as, you know-

28:29 Speaker 2 Right. Psychology.

28:30 Speaker 1 What, what-- Or, or again, you call it psychology. Call, call, call it talking, talking to us, that that's what it's talking about. Now, there's no question, and you know, you started the conversation with Vafa bringing from, from years ago, and it's something that I, that I have a kachen. I, I believe the other side is very important as well. And I believe that if we're only picking ourselves up to Chassidus and never bringing Chassidus down to us, we're missing something. Like in all the Ma'amarim of, of Yudus Kislev, Yud Kislev, Yud Kislev, and Chanukah, the Rebbe talks about the ma'ala of the Bir m'maala l'maata, the ma'ala of the Bir m'maata l'maala. And if you only have the Bir m'maala l'maata, you're missing a pumistic, uh, change. And I don't know if this is okay to bring up over here, and if not, you'll cut it out. You know, sometimes you wonder, you see a real Chassidishe Yid. He doesn't care about the way he's dressed, and he doesn't care about the food that he's eating, and he's mamash a Chassidishe Yid, and he knows a ton of Chassidus. And when it comes to certain inyonim and Midas b'ein adam lechaverei, he could mamash be a nano. He could mamash. And you're like, "Where's the Chassidus? Where's the Chassidus?" And you see it coming out by Chassidus of Fabregin, and if you know what's going on in Shalom Bayis, and, and you could see it in Shalom Bayis. And like, what's going on? And like,

30:06 Speaker 1 uh, uh, Leftecher. He's a Her Yid. He davens for hours. He looks like a Chassidishe Yid. He acts like a Chassidishe Yid b'derech klal, and he's not refined in, you know, when it comes to real practical things in life. Avein adam lechaver, bein ish le'ishto, where you see he's not refined. You see jealousy. You see, you know, barednen in the tzveit, uh, you know. Some bumps into him in seven-seven, and he can react like, like unrefined. And I think that's, that's one of the nekudos where it's very important, where we need to, I'm not sure exactly what the ratio is of how much of a m-maala l'maata, how much of m'maata l'maala of-- but there has to be that m'maata l'maala of applying Chassidus oibazoi Then what does that mean between other machavere? And what does that mean between ish lishte? What does that mean, you know, in, in my-- why am I in a bad mood? Like, if that's true, where's my bitachon? And if that's true, like, my, my, my respect for other people, the way I look at another Yid. Like, I really believe this, this neshamah, kasach haneshamah, v'et Haibishter, like, the sin has a neshamah. And, and, and when we never do that, and we're only meheitz achov checher, there's a certain disconnect between where we're ins-- you know, we're inspired, and we're uplifted, and a change of address that's true, and a change of identity. And I'm not into gashmiyas, I'm not into chomiyas, and I'm a chassidishe Yid,

31:52 Speaker 1 and it's so b'shemak, it's beautiful to see. But there's a total disconnect when it comes to poel mamash and their personal life. There's something lacking. There's something lacking. And therefore, there's a need for both. It's part of the b'shalom b'shalom. You need the shalom of mamay lemaata, and the shalom of maatal mayla. But again, the change of address happens with the mamay lemaata. No one became a chassidishe Yid from maatal mayla to chassidis. Maybe he became refined, and he doesn't get angry, and he doesn't talk bad about people. And, you know, he'll never blow up, and he's the best husband, and he's the best father, and he's the best friend. He's the biggest mensch. He's mamay lemaata. He's, he's, he's, he's not a chassidishe Yid. He's not a chassidishe Yid.

32:37 Speaker 2 That's all mussar. That's all, it's all shofnar.

32:39 Speaker 1 Again, and that's the best mussar, and it's the best shofnar, and it's the best psychology, and it's, it's, it's, it's all of them plus, and, and all with, with chassidishe geshmak. But what picks him up that, that changes the identity? Who is it that's acting like a mensch? Am I a citizen of Eretz HaChayim, or am I a neshamah that's put into this sack in Eretz HaChayim, and I have to deal with it? So who am I? Am I my neshamah? Am I a chassidishe Yid, or am I an American, right? Do I-- am I a chassid that lives in America, or am I an American that learns chassidis? Um, I think that change of, of address is, is from the checher yanam chassidis.

33:28 Speaker 2 So it sounds like you're saying that there's, there's two discussions. There's a discussion of chassidis being relatable. In o-in other words, there's a quest-- there's a discussion of, like, chassidis talking language of relatability and teaching, like, you know, everything into, um, into, uh, I don't wanna say modern, but teaching everything into, like, um, psy-psychology and, and, you know, um-

33:59 Speaker 1 Again, the word psychology means the way our psychic works.

34:02 Speaker 2 Right. In other words-

34:02 Speaker 1 So when you realize a chassidis is showing you where your s-- how your psychic is working and why you're making that error and experiencing things the wrong way, and if you look at it through the lens of chassidis, your psychic will change-

34:18 Speaker 2 Yeah

34:18 Speaker 1 ... to, to the right approach.

34:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:20 Speaker 1 So you wanna call that-

34:21 Speaker 2 I don't mean psychology as in, like, a, a-

34:22 Speaker 1 I, I get it, right. And, and that's important. And that's important.

34:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So there's, there's a discussion of the chassidis l'chatchilah talking in relatable terms, um, versus chassidis talking in, in, in, uh, terms of Halikhos. And then there's a-- that's one discussion. Then there's another discussion, which is the effect that it has on the person. So, you know, so kuli alma meidu, obviously, it's not a question that the second thing has to happen, that the, the bottom line, the chassidis, you know, this what we quote from the Chafetz Chaim Rabbi, that, that if a person learns chassidis, anything chassidis, and it doesn't change in avoda b'payo, I think that's the exact words of, you know, because it learn, um, it doesn't change in avoda b'payo, so then he missed the whole point of kol ilin chassidis.

35:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

35:10 Speaker 2 That's the bottom line. That's the avoda that comes after the learning. The learning itself, um, i-i-it sounds like you're saying not only it should be, uh, the-- a, a learning of terms of Halikhos, but farkert, that's the only way that it's really gonna make this, this change. So in other words, it's not a question of should I, um, you know, when I'm l-- sitting down to learn the Maimonides, what's this Maimonides going to teach me? What's this Maimonides going to make-- how is this Maimonides gonna make me a better person? That you, that you're only gonna know at the end. But for the time being, while you're learning the Maimonides, it shouldn't be a discussion of the human being, so to speak. I mean, a-again, like you said, there's obviously chassidis that talks directly about the human being. Tanya, you know, a lot of Tanya itself. But, you know, let's, let's say, uh, let's say a ran- a regular Maimonides of the Rebbe, an average Maimonides that's talking, like you said, that's talking, that's talking. There, it's not a discussion of the human being. It's not a discussion of the matola maila of, uh, of, of the way you're living your life.

36:10 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

36:10 Speaker 2 It's, it's a discussion, yeah, of, of, of reality. That's, that's why it sounds like there's these two steps, so to speak. There's a step of the actual learning chassidis itself and the way that you, uh, relate to the learning chassidis itself, and then the after effect, the-- what comes from that.

36:24 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

36:25 Speaker 2 Right.

36:26 Speaker 1 Uh, again, it's not like we're not allowed to think in the middle of a Maimonides, "Wow," you know, how that would change our day-to-day life and what that would mean and translated what that means in our practical life. That's a good thing to do.

36:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:42 Speaker 1 But that's not the only thing to do, and that's not the only-- when we're saying changing us, that's not the only type of change. There is a bigger and, and deeper change.

36:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:53 Speaker 1 And, and I think when the Chafetz Chaim was saying every Maimonides has to change you, learning chassidis has to change you, that's including both in yanam. It doesn't have to be a changed Um, you know, my ben Adam HaChaveri today. It changed my davening. It changed my edelkeit. It-- I'm not learning it as, as just a, a subject. I'm living in it, and it's picking me up, and it's making a tremendous tikkun change. But again, it could be a change of, of the mahus, a change of my, my general identity. You know, even... Take even the practical things in life. That itself could be done in more of a musar dikah way, more of a chasidish way, right? Let's say like, like, shalom bayis itself could be affected by this and could be affected by that. And ben Adam HaChaveri could be affected by this, so it could be, "Oh, so it's my yeshes, and it's my jealousy, and it's my this, and my yeshes is, is foolish, and it's disgusting." Or it could, neshamah. It, it could be neshamah-oriented. Take even the concept of iskafya. So there's iskafya that's about self-refinement. And if you want to lakos also chabling, my dear, and you wanna be more of a edeler person, if you're given every-everything you wanna eat, you eat. You're pashut, uh... Once my mashpia told me, this is what's practical iskafya today. He said, "There has to be one thing you like that you don't eat." I said, "What's one thing? I could

38:30 Speaker 1 have a thousand things I like." He says, "What's the one thing gonna do?" He says, " 'Cause if you eat everything you like, you're blig vo achazer." "Your achazer has no agbala. If there's one thing that you don't eat, your achazer is mugbal. Blig vo are bein ha'aretz." Good. So, so there's iskafya of, of being more edel, and that's a great thing. And then there's iskafya that's a different type of iskafya, that ma'atam tiyuli. These are k'toshem elikechem. I'm married. I'm, I'm mekudeshtev ha'ivrishte. My source of pleasure is supposed to be Elokos. I'm not looking to derive pleasure from other places. So I'm not, I'm not into that. I'm not into that. I'm, I'm staying away from that. I don't wanna get into that relationship. I'm in a relationship. That's a whole different, that's a whole different world. That's a much higher level, and, and, and I'm talking about having a, a, a smell of that, a mein of that, where I'm, I'm into higher things. I'm not into those things. That schleps me in a different direction. I'm, I'm moving in that direction. So it's not about me being refined. It's, it's about being associated with something bigger. And that's the same with everything, with every practical shinui that could be in our life. It could be more about, "Come on. Come on. We're, we're shach to something more." Or it could be, um, like talking to our nefshab hamas in his language and answering his question and telling him that even for you,

40:11 Speaker 1 this is, you know, this is what's gonna be more gishmak and more edel and deeper and more real and a better life. So it's needed. There's but both make a shinui. Both are mevar the nefshab hamas to make a shinui, but in-- it's, it's two different styles.

40:31 Speaker 2 Right. So it's, um, uh, uh, uh, recently I was at a farbrengen, and we were talking about, um, this concept of, of, uh, of, of daas. We were talking about daas specifically and of connecting to the chasidus that you learn. So someone, uh, one of my friends at a farbrengen, he's-- he said, you know, like, he, he said that, you know, he was recently by a farbrengen before that and, um, you know, that-- and this became the conversation about chasidus has to be practical and relevant. And he asked the mashpia, uh, uh, the friend said he asked the mashpia over there at that farbrengen, "So, so tell me, how is this ruden, uh, uh, you know, pr-practical and relevant?" And then the mashpia started eching and beching, you know, and, and, like, uh, my friend, he's, he's a smart guy, he's a funny guy, he said like, said, "You know, mashpiim always have their, their go-to examples of, like, the chasidus that's relevant and practical and, like, you know, how you could take an inion and, like, make a ch-- you know, uh, uh, thing. But then you, you put them in the corner with the, with the hard ones, with the deep ones, and, uh, all of a sudden eching and beching and, and then they get a phone call." So, uh, so, so we were talking about that idea, but what it-- what I think you're saying is actually very powerful in, in being able to explain this-- uh, in being able to

41:50 Speaker 2 answer that question and many such questions, which is chasidus is always going to be available to make you a better person, let's say it like that, make you a better yid, make you a better chasid. It doesn't have to be a topic that's talking about you. It doesn't have to be a topic that's talking about the person and his day-to-day avoda. And yes, you could find-- you, you, you, you might, you know, the mashpia might be able to find osios of how chveilas, you know, uh, the, the eses chasidus gnuzos is really, uh, vurt in, in, in the way you look at yourself and the way you look at other people, whatever, and, and it could be very true, but that's not the-- that's not necessary in order for the chasidus to be talking to you, um, even, even talking to you. It's talking to you by telling you, by, by making you aware of a whole nother reality, of a whole nother, uh, conversation.

42:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

42:41 Speaker 2 Um, and then, and then that itself, you're saying, makes a person a better person. And yes, there needs to be the, the avoda also l'mata maya. So, uh, I think that's very clear. I think that's very, that's very important. Um, I would ask you, like-- and again, going back to this, uh, this, uh, mythical balabas who's, uh, learning chasidus, you know, every once in a while and, and... So let's say he's gonna be learning, um- I also like what you said. I think you gave a very clear framing of hascala versus avoidah. It doesn't have to be, avoidah means, I think what I'm understanding from what you're saying, avoidah is when it's l'chachil talking about nefesh ha'adam. And hascala is where it's talking about nunim v'lakos. So like you said, actually most of the rebbes mamarin are hascala, even if there is a practical money at the end, et cetera, which is pretty clear. So let's say a guy's learning a hascala of a maimer. And again, he's learning half an hour. What would you say is the important, like maybe the kavanah, so to speak, that he should have before, right? Like the rabbi talks about having this kavanah before you start davening, right? L'shmah, of the remembering about Hashem. What would be a practical, like thought process to have before you start learning a maimer that this is going to, that I'm not just going to escape into, not just the mamayla makah, but I will also be able to emerge with a

44:18 Speaker 2 mamayla mamayla dikka experience from it?

44:23 Speaker 1 So I think setting it up, like we said before, I don't think hit and runs work. And it has to be das. The first tool of das is yatik machshav tebechezik. Stay there and don't run away. You can't go window shopping in a skull of chiddes and expect it to elevate us. So we have to be into it and stay into it. And even if it's once a week, and it's better if it's more than once a week. So that's how das happens. From being in it long enough for it to marinate in it until that becomes your flavor. So it's not about me finding an application. That's not the das that Alte was talking about. Pash to das is that you're in it long enough until that changes. You're pickled. You're marinated. You change flavors. And that's l'chayir, without applying it to myself. This is applying myself to chiddes, not applying chiddes to myself. Something we could think about, I think the mashal that I used before of the shliach bringing his balabas to the rebbe. Now the rebbe's taking us to his rebbe. Now the rebbe's taking us to where he recharges. You know, it's usually the shluchim are recharging the people in the Chabad houses and they're going to the kinas ha'shluchim to recharge. And they bring the three biggest kelim with them. Come. Come recharge where I recharge. And think that the rebbe's taking us with him. And that's, you saw that when the rebbe said a maimer. He was holding

46:12 Speaker 1 on to the handkerchief. You saw the rebbe was in a different place. He was physically in a different place, like doctors say from Tav Shalon. That's what they were able to see. The rebbe's taking us with him to what he's into. And I think if we think about that, wow, that's a whole different experience. I'm not just learning about something. Yes, the way we do it is with Chabad and I need to understand it. But this is, I'm being uplifted right now. It's actually an interesting letter from the rebbe. There's someone that wrote to the rebbe his personal issues. Very personal things, a detailed letter. And he got back from the rebbe a michtav klali prati. Michtav klali prati was a, you know, it was a nusach that was sent to many people in that time of the year with another line or two addressing him specifically. And sometimes not even just his name on it. But the nusach was pretty generic, if you could say that. And he wrote back to the rebbe a little disappointed. I wrote to you my, you know, my personal issues and you gave me this michtav klali prati. So the rebbe responded to him by saying, I thought you would be interested in knowing what I'm into these days. So I sent you a letter of pu'ich koch. I see that you wanted me to be into where you are these days. Okay, I'll address that. I'll address that. So for us to realize that that's what the

47:47 Speaker 1 rebbe's doing. That's what the rebbe's doing. If you want to put it in other words. It's mevor in chassidus that there are different types of neshamas. There's zera adam and zera behema. So tzaddikim are considered zera adam. Adam has das. They're shayech to have das in alukos. And all those that are not tzaddikim yet are behemoths. They're not shayech to have das in alukos. That's the way we are. You know, that's the way we're born. What does a rebbe do? So just like by Moshe benu it says, venasati eisav besodcha livhemtecha. Chassidus explains that he gave eisav. Eisav is the das livhemtecha. And he gave das in alukos to behemoths and transformed neshamas that are not shayech to das in alukos to have das in alukos. That's what a rebbe does. That's what chassidus is. That the rebbe turns an animal into a human being. Take someone that, again, his questions are how can I deal with this trauma and how can I deal with the fact that my food doesn't taste as good as I want my wife to prepare it. What's the answer to that question? And instead, venasati eisav besodcha livhemtecha. He starts thinking like a mensch. And he's into what the rebbe's into. That's a nes. It's a nes that we can even understand it. It's a nes that we could get into, that we could start arguing about if we understood chassidus this way or that way. That's a nes. We're behemoths. And we're having human discussions. That's a brain

49:26 Speaker 1 surgery. That's a brain transplant. So the rebbe's picking us up or, you know, in the issues of bonim and avadim. So it says in Zohar, a eved, a eved needs to know what he's told. A ben, everything's his business. Right? He's always searching. It's natural. You know, all kids, I'll talk for myself, but I think this is true about anyone that's a child or that was a child. You're always interested in knowing what your parents don't want you to know. You want to listen into their private conversations when they're out of the house, go searching through the closets and finding what they're hiding from you, right? it's not coming from being nosy. If, if, if, you know, if you would be an eved, that's nosy. You know, the cleaning lady shouldn't be crawling, you know, all this kitchen. But if you're a child, it's coming from a very authentic place where I'm one thing with my parents, and, you know, sapadness that there's something that they're hiding from me. I'm not comfortable with that. And Tzadikim feel that way, that they're curious to know everything they were just hiding entirely, what's they were just hiding in their ienia. The Gemara says, "Don't look up, don't look down, don't ask what happened, don't ask what's gonna be. Just do what you're told." Because most of us, that's what we're really inherently shaiach to. But if we have... You know, the Ebed brings us to, to a place or, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a

50:59 Speaker 1 brain transplant. It's a change of identity that you're shaiach to have a Ben experience and feel like a child, to have the curiosity. "L'da'as kol razei de'achatet". I wanna know this. And, and you see that in Mukrishit, that the Baal Shem Tov and Alter Rebbe and the Rebbeim brought this Tzimimoin that you could say Kol Yisroel as a whole is curious to know the Yivshuta secrets. So we were picked up to be Monim that have that curiosity and have the capacity to, to appreciate it, to get it, and, and to be interested and, and have a koachenet. I- if we realize that this is not just, oh, interesting text, and it's, you know, it's a good philosophical discussion. It's, it's a nes. It's, it's a nes happening every time we're able to learn a mayim or we're able to connect with it, and what it does to us is a nes. It picks us up.

51:56 Speaker 3 Uh, so, so that's I think the, the, the point of the question. The-- Like, let's say the, the thing you said about the nes, right? And, and I think there's a迷with the Chassid Alter Rebbe that the Alter Rebbe, he, he-- the other people sort of were making fun of him that, that he doesn't have迷. And then punkt the Alter Rebbe wrote a letter to the, like, the Chassid that was, like, helping him, um, uh, uh, that, uh, um, you know, get this letter, the, the And then, then, then the Chassid was blown away, and the Chassid, the, uh, the veteran Chassid told him like, "Bulak," like, the, "The biggest nes is that, uh, that a Baser Avodam could have a shaiachus to..." Chassidus, forget the exact question, right?

52:39 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

52:40 Speaker 3 So, like, we have-- So, so let's understand this for a second. What, what exactly is the nes? Is-- Uh, uh, and not only about that story, in general, what you're saying. The nes is that we're able to learn and talk about and, and think about inyonim of Elikos, that we're able to have three dagus in Notsilos, whatever, like, three ways of understanding Notsilos. Um, I, I, I think obviously the answer is no, it's not just about the understanding because you could have philosophers that, uh-- I'm saying if the concept of philosophy is, is about thinking about abstract concepts that, uh, that might be way beyond the person's grasp. Um, obviously, there's something deeper in the-- in what is that nes, what is that discussion of learning Elikos. Or to ask the question a little bit differently, um, you know, there's a basic idea of what's the difference in Kabbalah and Chassidus. And Kabbalah is, I mean, one, one way of answering at least is that Kabbalah is just a discussion of concepts of Elikos in a way that's very moshet, davka moshet. And you have to be able to be moshet in order to be able to learn Kabbalah, and that's why Ka- can't-- not everyone can learn Kabbalah because and this is, this is the words I was using then by the Farbrengen with you. I said that, you know, human beings, we're, we're by default, we're, we're subjective. We're, we're very biased by nature. Everything needs to be centered around our perspective. Um,

54:07 Speaker 3 and that's why that was the problem. That's the problem with Kabbalah, because if you're learning Kabbalah and you're not able to be moshet , so then it's, then it's bad. So as a-- So Kabbalah is just that discussion. Chassidus is the discussion of Elikos as it relates-- I mean, this is where maybe we could, we could, uh, fine-tune the wording. But as it's, uh, you know, as it, as it's neget ha'avodah, what, what, what exactly would you-- how would you finish off that sentence?

54:38 Speaker 1 So obviously, Chassidus was given to us. We should serve the Haibishter in a higher way, in more of a geulah d'keva way. And the, and the way it's given to us in a pnimius d'keva way, that it should penetrate, is that it comes through chacham binodas. It comes to our heart. It doesn't go straight to our heart talking avodah d'keshebach.

54:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

54:56 Speaker 1 It's going through our brain to our heart, and that's when we really internalize it, and that's when it stays with us. Um, so that's the chidush of Chassidus Chabad, bringing it into chacham binodas besides the giluy. But, you know, I, I'm not sure I, I disagree with what you said before about a philosopher can understand everything. 'Cause some people wanna look at it that the Alter Rebbe was a Litvak that was nesakar of Chassidus, so he took concepts of Chassidus and explained it. You know, that was the Litvak part of him.

55:26 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

55:27 Speaker 1 Where he explained it, uh, in taam ha'daas.

55:30 Speaker 3 This is, like, written somewhere? Like, this-

55:31 Speaker 1 I've, I've heard people say this. The Alter Rebbe was, you know, the, uh, the, the achdus of, of- Uh, kind of just, uh, no way of explaining, like, what the Al-

55:40 Speaker 3 Okay.

55:41 Speaker 1 That's not what it is because if, if ayal pil be'kupa d'machat is nimna nimnois. Is nimnois. It's, it's, it's impossible. You can't put an elephant through the hole of a needle, even though they're both limited. These concepts that we're learning about and that we could even think that a philosopher could understand it- Is a miracle bigger than putting an elephant through the hole of a needle? Because these are concepts that are not something that a philosopher can understand. As soon as we get higher than the chitzonius of mamalek olam, the practical part of mamalek olam. A goy can't understand seviv. A goy can't understand even the, the truth of the pnimius of mamalek olam. Definitely not in a way that it's resonating, that he, that he really gets it. Um, but this that we could even think so, that it makes so much sense to us, is a nes of taking a concept that even Mekubalim. Like there are certain things we learn in Chassidus, M'kubal didn't have Rashash to talk about, or Ramak lo yada minyan et tzimtzum. Whether he didn't know or he wasn't allowed to talk about it, or this wasn't passed down to everyone. And these are concepts, or some explain he co- he didn't have a way to explain how we went from Ein Sof to, to Ak, so he just didn't talk about it. Whatever the explanation is. We're talking about concepts that are inherently lamay lamitav das. They're concepts of emunah, and emunah coming b'pnimius, emunah coming into

57:05 Speaker 1 das is a nes. It's taking belief and bringing it into guf. And we're talking about things that are much more abstract than quantum physics, which is all bia. And probably what today's, uh, it's all asia. But, um, we're sech lo nu sheki get to is trei lama bria.

57:27 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

57:27 Speaker 1 It's the most abstract. To get to elokus, that's not-- That's a nes. It's a nes that it works, and that, that we could connect with it, and that, that it talks to us and sehi ptum sof, it, it works. It's-- And that's what, that's what Alter Rebbe did. So philosophically, it's a nes that Reu kal baser yacht of kpia vayediber. Yeah, not just tzaddikim. Everyone's going to be am echulam tzaddikim b'goli, and that, that everyone can have their own elokus, and we understand that that's not... Right? So de'ah Hashem, the daas to have a shayas, that's also-- that's, that's something that wasn't supposed to happen in the goel's plan. And the Alter Rebbe gave us geulah, at least in that, in that area, me'ein of losid, of, of this nes happening, of ma'alar it's de'ah Hashem, at least in, in something of daas, if not, if not in ruyah, but at least in daas.

58:28 Speaker 3 Right. So in other words, you're saying that the, the nes is in just in the learning part itself, just in the havana part itself. Um, it also sounds like you're sa-- I mean, we, we mentioned this before about daas. It sounds like you're, you're talking about daas. Not talking about, you're, you're, you're framing daas not as the part of ahilat hasamidas, not as the part of the emotional, um, attachment that comes from it, but just in the, just in the hiskasos stage, just in the oymek stage. Um, you know, there's, uh, I mean, the, the Rebbe defines daas, right, vargemol as, uh, hiskasos. The, uh, Rabbi Sha talks a lot about hakarah and hargasha even, um, which hakarah and hargasha already the way that it more m- changes the person's entire perspective. It changes the person's entire-- Like the Alter-- the Rabbi Sha talks about how from hakarah could have, uh, hachlata. That a person could, could be so deeply convicted that it takes over their entire life, that they can make decisions based on that. So you're saying that there's also the element of-- I mean, of course, there's also the element of daas as just that you, you, y-you, you weren't thinking about yourself. It wasn't talking about your life. You were just learning for the sake of learning. Like, uh, the, the, the oymek of, of what you were learning in a way, not how then it could become the source of a midah, but in the, uh, in, in the-- that

59:58 Speaker 3 the learning itself was, was real. The learning itself, like you said before, was the over marinating.

1:00:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes, but not only. I think that marinating, that's real daas. Um, daas is not changing the words and applying it verbally-

1:00:10 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

1:00:11 Speaker 1 ... to answer my questions. Daas is when I connect with it, there's hiskasos, and then it becomes mine. It says, "Mine, Tata." And that's going to change the way I feel. That's going to automatically change the way I feel in everything.

1:00:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:26 Speaker 1 So again, if, if certain things, if we don't bring it down to our kiruv self, if we don't bring it down to our practical self, if we don't bring it down to myself the way I'm hungry, okay? The-- to myself the way I'm tired.

1:00:39 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:40 Speaker 1 If I never talk to that part of myself, there are those times where I'm not in that hecher place, and I'm caught off guard, and I can be a total animal. And, and there's a need for m'umata lamaylah. But the m'umata lamata of Chassidus is not just taskol and staying there, and I marinate it in that. Of course, it changes the way I feel and, and my whole feeling towards Olam HaZeh, my whole feeling towards, towards life. It changes, and my feeling towards the Aibishter. We're talking about the middos we're talking about in Tanya, the whole perek Lamed Heis, Arba Einayim Lamakom. So my Yiras Shamayim, how real it is to me that, that the Aibishter's here, well, the more I learn Chassidus, right, the ata. Well, how does this affect my davening, the Pirush Hamillos? Who I'm talking to. So now every Meimer is explaining this halachah or that halachah, but the ata, who am I talking to? Who am I standing before? This that it's real, this that he's really here, right? And to have real Yiras Shamayim, the Aibishter has to be real. So it's not about answering my questions. It's about, you know, he's really here. It's real. And then Ahavas Hashem, Yiras Hashem, that's what the Alter Rebbe's talking about. Those middos in our relationship with the Aibishter is when the Aibishter becomes real. Now, the Aibishter becomes real when we talk about him, and, and when we understand it, that brings it b'pnimius. So, so- My, my rational mind

1:02:11 Speaker 1 understands that the Ibrist is here as much as it understands that this table is here, or that electricity is here, or whatever it is that's here, even things we don't see. And then, Vavdeu believe of Shalom, Vavdeu. So that's what we're talking about. So we need to apply it to our practical life in order to have Avas Hashem. Maybe that could help in certain areas if you want to, like, apply it to, like, Taichois, that this is talking about this. You have this and you have that, and that's all from the Ibrist and Taichois and Ashlacha Pratas, and I see the Ibrist involved in every detail. But that's, again, not Taiching your Ois, what that's going to mean today when I come home. That's Taiching Ois in Halbasha, in Hasbara. What we're talking about, the Malach Alamin means that the Ibrist is constantly involved with me in a very unique way. And that expresses itself in Ashlacha Pratas and expresses itself with, okay, that's Taiching your Ois. But Taiching Ois, the Inyan, the Ibrist, not saying that this is talking about your personal life in other areas, which, again, it's Kevei Bracha Latsi, but that's, that's not what Alta was talking about with DAS, of applying it. It's applying myself to it till that becomes my father, and then it's gonna change the way I feel.

1:03:33 Speaker 3 It's interesting because I, um, I was once teaching this Suggi of DAS. So I asked a, a veteran Mashbia, um, I asked him, like, what is there, is there some, like, as I, I noticed this concept that Alta Rebbe talks, defines DAS as a Skashros. Um, and later, I think, like, Memvov or something, I think Memvov, he, he mentions the word Hakara. Um, and then the Rebbe Shab, like, Mamish, Barucha, Hakara, Hargasha, and the Rebbe Shab even defines the, the quality of Hargasha, of Hakara, and I'm not getting into that now, but that's not the point. But, um, so I asked this Mashbia, like, why, like, is there, what's the reason? Like, what's going on here? It's like, what's this? Yeah, whatever, he said, interesting, you know, he said, do you wanna write a thesis on this? Like, well, no, so, uh, so it, it, but now, and again, not, not, not to write a thesis on this, but now it's sounding like is that, is that the Heskashros is the, the step for DAS for itself as it relates to Chach Mamvina. In other words, as it relates to the Haskalah of what you're learning. And the Hakara and Hargasha almost sound like that, like, express, like, clearly verbalizing the outcome that should be happening if the Heskashros is, is being done correct. And I was like, like what you said before, that, yes, of course, the Heskashros that Alta Rebbe was talking about is the Ligin Zech in the Inyonim of Alikos. But

1:04:58 Speaker 3 yes, of course, that's gonna bring an outcome. Um, like you said, the Dayin Tata, the written story that the Rebbe, the, the story with the Chas, the, the Melamed who told the, the farmer about the, his father passed away, and then the, the farmer fainted, but the, the Melamed didn't faint because it wasn't his tata. And the Rebbe spelled out that when you're learning Chassidus, it has to be, you're learning Dayin Tata. Um, so of course, there is gonna be that, the, the fainting outcome. In other words, the, the practical, um, um, connection, the, the, the connection in a practical way. Um, so, but, but, but again, it sounds like what you're saying, that the Alta Rebbe's focusing it just on the part as it relates to you learning, and maybe the Rebbe Shab is spelling out more in Oyesius what that's gonna look like in the, in the person's Avida.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 I think definitely Skashros is the etzem of what DAS is.

1:05:50 Speaker 3 Right.

1:05:51 Speaker 1 And when you have Skashros, it's as if that's my personal opinion. I, I, I recognize him. I, I, it's not something, it's not a subject I'm learning that I'm a student of the concept. This is the way I see it. And, and therefore, I intellectually experience it. So it's not just theoretical. I, I feel I'm, I'm in it. But it-- Why do I have a Karagasha? Because I, I, I'm synchronized with the concept right now. I'm, I'm one with it. So I think Skashros is the main, is what it is. And a Karagasha are describing what the experience is going to feel like and what that's going to do to you.

1:06:30 Speaker 3 Right. Okay. I'm gonna, um, here's a question. It's, uh, it's, you know, if, we'll see if, uh, basically, I'm curious 'cause, um, the, w- w- someone who's a Mashpia in Yeshiva dealing with Bakhar, and so, uh, they have, uh, the, the quality of it being their, their whole life, their, their day job, you know, of, um, you know, teaching Chassidus and, and obviously living with it themselves. And I'm curious about this that we're talking about, basically how, you know, going back already to the way you said in the beginning, where you, there's a Shimanim Muhus L'Muhus just by being immersed in learning Chassidus. And like I asked in the beginning that, like, this sounds like it's more, it's gonna happen more by a Bakhar. Um, can you, can you give me an ex-- obviously without names, but can you give me an example of, uh, of-- I, I'm not so much asking for the, the Bakhar's life story and how he changed, but more about, like, uh, and, and you're, you're a known Mashpia that, uh, that you're very close with the Bakhar, and Bakhar are very close with you. I personally have a lot of friends that, um, you know, that, uh, diff- that look up to you as their Mashpia, and they're very close with you. Um, so not so much about the Bakhar's life story, but more about, like, what it was in Chassidus if a Bakhar shared with you how something in Chassidus really, like, changed him, um, a concept. And,

1:07:58 Speaker 3 and again, hopefully, uh, hopefully anyone, even a Balabas, even a, you know, an adult shou- could and should be able to have such an experience. But sometimes when we hear, like, real-life examples of it, it, it resonates more as in, like, like, the connection. So again, it's like kind of putting you on the spot and like, uh, obviously we would have to stay confidential, but like, um, the more, more focusing on the topic of Chassidus and the oisus of how it changes someone.

1:08:31 Speaker 1 So I'll, I'll tell you, I think that the-- there's a general effect of being into Chassidus and getting involved in Chassidus that, that changes many people's lives just from, just from getting involved. Specifically, um, there was a, a bachur that approached me several years after he was in my class. When he was in my class, we were learning Be'adai Temaskla. And it's a maymer that discusses Avay willkommen kol echad. There's a skull apart. The first half picks us up, and the second half comes down and talks to us. And, um, we were learning that maymer. We learned the maymer from the Rebbe, the hemshach to that of, uh, Chanukah maymer, Chanukah lamed he. Uh, where the Rebbe talks about nisyonos and failed nisyonos and, and how to overcome that. And this bachur that came to me years later, he was going through a very-- he went through a very hard tegufah in his life. And, um, he told me, "I'm, I'm alive today." You know, "I, I survived that nisayon, that..." I'm not gonna get into details of what he, of what he went through, um, thanks to those, those maymerim that he learned. And what he was holding on to the whole time, "This is a nisayon, this is gonna pick me up. And even if part of this nisayon is that it was caused by my own errors, that's Hashgacha Protis as well, and that's an opportunity to grow from that as well." He said, "I'm sane today. I'm alive today. And what

1:10:12 Speaker 1 I was holding on to in those hard moments were those, those shiurim and those, those maymerim that we, that we learned." One thing that comes to mind, uh, there's, there's a bachur that, you know, I, I told him, "If you, if you get involved in Mussar Dis, you take a maymer, you learn it many times, I'll give you a dollar from the Rebbe." I, I felt like he really needed something to, to, to get him involved. When I gave him the dollar, he said, "I want you to know that what I got from this maymer was much more than a dollar from the Rebbe. I got a Rebbe."

1:10:46 Speaker 3 Wow. Wow.

1:10:47 Speaker 1 You know, before I learned the maymer in a, uh, in a premiestnik way, it was the Rebbe of my parents. It was the Rebbe of what I'm supposed to be. You know, I'm supposed to be a Mekushar, I'm supposed to love him, I'm supposed to have a relationship with him, but I didn't. 'Cause ever since I, I took a maymer from the Rebbe and learned it again and again and again, I have a Rebbe. I, I, I dream the Rebbe, I write to the Rebbe, the Rebbe answers me. I, I, I, I have a Rebbe. So he's very thankful for the dollar. It's good to, to hold something from him in my hand. But, but now it means something to me because I, I have a Rebbe that I got this dollar from.

1:11:27 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 And you could, you know, weigh those two stories. Um, and, and what's a bigger, what's a bigger effect? We'll leave that up to, to you to decide for, for everyone to decide for themselves. But I think we need both. I think we need a Rebbe, and we need to be mentioned. We need to make it through, uh, the challenges of life. So...

1:11:51 Speaker 3 Yeah. Wow. Okay. Hashgacha Iyach. Thank you very much for taking the time and, uh, making this happen. And, uh, l'chaim that this should take a-- it, it-- this was a discussion. And so this was a discussion for the sake of the discussion. And, uh, hopefully it, it helps people and, uh, gives people the realization, number one, that there's, that there's, there's, uh... I'll, I'll go backwards. Number one, that, that Chassidus needs to pick us up, and it needs to, uh, you know, change us and, and, and make us better people and better Chassidim and better Yidden. But number two, that, that it will happen when, when, when we just learn it, when we just get involved and, uh, and, and, and, and immerse ourselves in the world that Chassidus has to offer. L'chaim.

1:12:44 Speaker 1 L'chaim.