ההפלגה שחיללה את השבת

00:01 Speaker 1 This is Igris, and today we are launching-- Uh, you know what? We are embarking. We are embarking on a voyage. We are embarking on a voyage to discuss the Rebbe Shlicha on cruise liners. Not cruise liners nowadays. A lot of things have changed since the Rebbe's many letters on ships that were owned by Jews and, uh, how they traveled over Shabbos. But in the era where the Rebbe was talking about this, mainly in the fifties and sixties, this was, by all accounts, one of the Rebbe's greatest arguments, one of the Rebbe's greatest battles for the sanctity of Shabbos. It's a, it's a great moment in Chabad history, and as far as I can tell, it hasn't been covered all that well in other places, so we're going to do it as well as possible right here. Uh, to make a very long story short, uh, to put the entire, uh, multi-part Shir in a sentence, we're going to look at a bunch of letters, uh, mainly letters, really letters, no sichas, letters. We're gonna look at a bunch of letters where the Rebbe takes issue with a shipping company, with a cruise line that existed in, uh, the fifties and the sixties that was supposed to help Yidden travel from America to Eretz Yisrael. It was a lot cheaper than the El Al flights that were available. It was a lot cheaper than other ways of getting to Eretz Yisrael. It came with one caveat: the ship had to travel on Shabbos, and the ship

01:03 Speaker 1 was run by Jews. They had many reasons why they thought this was mutar. Some Rabbonim had reasons why they thought this was mutar. And the Rebbe, as not only an expert, of course, in everything having to do with Torah and mitzvahs and Halakha, but also as a literal expert in the construction and manufacture and running of ships. That was his job when he was in America before he became Rebbe. Before the Nesius, he was involved in naval engineering. So as an expert in ships and an expert in Halakha, the Rebbe waged a war and told everybody who would listen. He told first Chassidim and later on Rabbonim and, uh, later on the company itself that there was no way this was mutar on Shabbos, and, uh, and pushed and pushed and pushed. And we're going to see these letters. We're going to look at the, uh, we're gonna look at the letters that the Rebbe sent individuals. We're going to look at the letters that the Rebbe sent famous Rabbonim, including a back and forth between the Rebbe and Rav Mesha, although I don't think we're gonna get to that today, where Rav Mesha responds, says, "I agree with some of what you're saying, not everything." The Rebbe writes back. There's a back and forth between them. And finally, in Likutei Sichos, the Rebbe ultimately, uh, published a version of sh-sort of shailas and teshuvahs, kind of a Q&A on this inyan in the back of one of the volumes of Likutei Sichos, very similar

02:02 Speaker 1 to his Q&A that he put in regarding mitzvot tefillin. So we have a lot here. Uh, we're gonna start at the beginning. Uh, the beginning is a story. In nineteen fifty-three, the Zim, Z-I-M is usually how it's spelled. Sometimes it's Zim in Lashon HaKodesh, I believe. The Zim shipping company, they launched a transatlantic passenger line using a bunch of ships that they had bought with aid from German reparation funds. So the Nazis, uh, after they were done, the, the Germans felt bad, and they sent a lot of things to Eretz Israel. That's why when you're in Eretz Israel, um, you get all these, uh, all of what-- Aren't all the buses Mercedes or something? You have a lot of German, uh, German manufacturing in Eretz Israel. They gave us a lot of presents after World War II, and one of them was they gave us a whole lot of money, and we used it to buy a bunch of ships, a bunch of ships that could cross the sea. So they began offering passenger cruises to Europe, the United States, and to the Caribbean, and part of the idea was that it was a stylish and relaxing and less expensive way to get from America to Eretz Israel and back. Now, the voyages from Eretz Israel to Europe, they took under a week, and, uh, the other voyages also weren't such a problem, but those to the US, they took longer than seven days, which meant that every one of these ocean liners from the

03:02 Speaker 1 Zim shipping company were sailing on Shabbos. The Rebbe was not happy about this at all. This was, uh-- These had all Jewish crews, they had mostly Jewish passengers, and everybody was traveling on Shabbos, and the Rebbe was convinced that this involved Hillul Shabbos. He initially, in the early fifties, wrote to Chassidim, uh, wrote to individuals who were involved in these sorts of travels and told them how he was upset about it, but didn't make a very loud rash about it. The Rebbe did this very privately initially. So initially, we have a whole bunch of letters from the nineteen fifties all over Igris where somebody will mention to the Rebbe in passing that they went on such a ship, or that they just arrived on such a ship, or that they were planning on making a voyage on such a ship, and the Rebbe usually writes them a letter saying how upset he is about this and how they absolutely cannot do it. But this is really just letters to individuals until the middle of the nineteen fifties. So what we're going to look at first, uh, one example of this, really, there are at least fifteen examples of this in Igris. I'm gonna show you one example of someone who wrote to the Rebbe saying that his brother had traveled on one of these ships in order to attend his sister's wedding, and the Rebbe talks about how upset he is about this and how many sins he violated by being on this ship. So

04:00 Speaker 1 this letter is Hey Taf Kuf Lamed Daled. It's from Chaf Ha-Kislev of Taf Shin Yod Zain. It's one of the, uh, one of the earlier letters that we have between individuals, and this would be nineteen fifty-seven, right around the year nineteen fifty-seven. The Rebbe writes, "Shalom u-brekha. Never a good, never a good start to a letter. It was with great shock that I read your letter from Yud Kislev. He said that your brother had a great trial, a great test that he had to pass when it came to traveling on a ship on Shabbos Kodesh. So he talks about this like it's not a great thing, but also, you know, a, a challenge. Everybody has their challenges. My brother had a challenge. And the Rebbe says, " So the Rebbe begins like this, and then the Rebbe goes into some details. And the details are, this is one of the most brutal letters, letters I've ever read. The “Kamai, Kamai bechal l'yan muvan sheim gam zev niskayim aveira gereda saveira.” You should be aware, says the Rebbe, that with all things like this, one sin leads to another sin. And then the Rebbe lists every possible aveira this person might have done on the ship, including things you would never dream of. “Shbetchila,” first of all, “Ki l'shem mivtave mechasen emes. Umuvan ad kama muza b'til kazeve nigel aveira b'chlal.” Say due to lack of effort. You say that because of, you know, lack of, lack of effort, he ended up in this situation. The

06:36 Speaker 1 Rebbe says in parentheses, "I don't understand how you can end up in a-an aveira of kilul Shabbos because you weren't, uh, you weren't trying hard enough." But in any event, “Ki ninalsaveif,” and you travel in this way, “Shkfisha marchi l'rabira,” a way that I explained to you how this is a chilul Shabbos BeFarhesia. The Rebbe apparently told him already that this was a form of chilul Shabbos BeFarhesia. This was public desecration of Shabbos. Says, "When you travel in this way," “Umeila kadesham al yain.” So you were there over Shabbos, right? And you made kiddush on wine. Uh-oh. “Ashayach l'val einez,” who owned the wine? The people who owned the wine were the people who owned the ship, “anes m'chil Shabbos Farhesia,” the people who were driving the ship in public on Shabbos in a form of chilul Shabbos. Therefore, the wine, you weren't allowed to drink it. “Sheayen ese bashtia.” So when you made kiddush on this ship, you drank wine you're not allowed to drink. “Vashkacha zeharei zecha chava tilula.” Any sort of hashgacha that you would say is on this wine, that some Rav watched over to make sure it was kosher, is a joke. “Chacha v'tilula” is a, is a Gemara expression for a big joke. “Ken isi yenesh lamchal Shabbos Farhesia ivne maga akam v'kal avin.” There's no, uh, isi yenesh lamchal Shabbos Farhesia because of maga akam. The concern here isn't that a goy might have touched the wine. The co- the concern here is that it's owned by somebody

07:34 Speaker 1 who violated Shabbos in public. The, uh-- So he said, "Tell, tell me that they made sure no Goyim touched the wine." "I'm not worried that Goyim touched the wine," says the Rebbe. "All of you touched the wine." “V'lo ein,” furthermore, “El shedas kama gedelim afilu chesem b'secher chesem elo meod zeh.” According to many gedelim, even a seal inside a seal, even if you double-package this wine, that won't work in this particular case. “Kevon sheayen haya asar bashtia m'kedem” because the wine was already asar to drink from, uh, from beforehand. Anyway, “Umezen nerch b'safek im yesh l'varech alav.” Now, that was one aveira. So first of all, you did the aveira of chilul Shabbos BeFarhesia. You end up drinking wine that you're not allowed to drink. Now, when you drink that wine, what bracha do you make on the wine? “Umezen nerch b'safek im yesh l'varech alav.” You didn't know whether you were allowed to make a bracha on it. Okay. “Du machlikos b'sdom k'gein dol.” There's a machlikos whether you're allowed to make a bracha on, on yain, on yain nesach or things like that, yain that belongs to someone you're not allowed to drink. “Ov v'chalefen. Yesh bezeh isi dibeitzah be'achni et Hashem.” And even if you end up making the bracha, you violated another prohibition of beitzah be'achni et Hashem, which is that you're not allowed to make a bracha on an aveira. “Umezen nigra l'id safek,” now that leads you to another safek, another doubt. “Bim sadei s'laila b'lei kiddush.” Are you

08:30 Speaker 1 supposed to just eat that night without making kiddush at all? So now you've put yourself in a very strange situation. You have wine you're not allowed to use, that you're not allowed to drink. You're gonna drink it in theory, so you're gonna make a bracha on it. You make a bracha on it, you're either going to do one aveira or another, and in any event, if you decide not to drink the wine, you now have to have a meal on Shabbos without making kiddush, which is another aveira. “Ken, b'tach kara yishtamach b'eifen acher, b'electra sh'b'sfinah.” Certainly, you then read or did something else using one of the electric lights of the ship. You know where those electric lights come from? “She'anes m'atsav sh'lah hem m'nei Yisroel.” The, uh, the people who supply this light, who are involved in this, are Jewish people. “Umeila kolo are nasim b'shvilam asur gam l'acheirim.” Since everybody was benefiting from the light, why are they turning on the lights? They're turning on the lights for the passengers. And who are the passengers? It's all Jews on this ship. So since all the passengers are Jewish, even if a goy turns on the light, it's a problem. “Meila kolo are nasim b'shvilam asur gam l'acheirim afilu b'enyan, uh, b'enyan ner l'echad ner l'meah.” There's a normal halacha that if you turn on a light for one person, it works for everybody. So if the majority of the room is not Jewish, a goy can turn on a light for the non-Jews

09:27 Speaker 1 in some cases, and that's okay for the Jews who are in the room. But here, the light is for all the Jews on the ship, so you're not allowed to use the light. So the entire day you're on a cruise ship, the entire night you're on a ship, you're using the lights. Sin leads to another sin. So we had a problem with chilul Shabbos, led to problems with kiddush, led to problems with brachas, led to problems with the meal on Shabbos, and now you can't even walk around and read by the light. You're doing an aveira every time you use their light system. “Ken nigra mizeh oyd lishtias mayim.” And of course, you ended up having to drink some water, right? Did you drink any water on the ship? “Mideasi dai mashbas finas hadyes manenu,” and you had to wash your hands on these ships. “Mara ve'esen asiya lei chimes mei hayam.” The Rebbe knows how the engineering of this works, too. He says, while they're traveling, they take that water from the ocean, “Martich mesei,” and then they boil it, “kei laftam lamayim esukim,” in order to turn it into fresh water. They boil the salt out of it. So all the water you used on the ship the entire time, violation of Shabbos. “Mizeh muvan ashram mayim mishnam sh'bem balaila ubamartich hamiyim sh'lufanav.” And the way that it generally works is that whatever water you use at night comes from the boiling that happened the day before. “Al derech zamayim mishnam shem behem

10:20 Speaker 1 beyom.” And therefore, the stuff, the water that you used on Shabbos Kodesh, “Bai marasicha sh'lifnei z'shais,” that came from boiling that happened from several hours earlier. “Zei z'meras shemayim be'tokim b'sfinah be'em tza'yim heim eilush martich ham'balaila uvekadiyam Shabbos.” That means they came from Shabbos. The Rebbe says in another letter similarly that even after Shabbos is a problem because after Shabbos, when you use the water, it's water that was, uh, boiled on Shabbos. So he says even the water system you're using is going to lead to violations of Shabbos. “V'zeh din d'ner l'echad ner l'meah einei.” And there you have no exemption of ner l'echad ner l'meah, that one flame, uh, that is good enough for everybody covers everybody. That's that-- didn't we explain earlier that sometimes a non-Jew is allowed to start a process for a large group of non-Jews, and even if a Jew benefits on the side, it's not a big deal. “V'adef zav akam akam esodam.” And in this fashion, the Rebbe says, you just keep on violating, you just keep on doing aveiras. The Rebbe lists, says you did Mechil Shabbos BeFarhesia. One thing led to another. I can list, uh, I can, I can make a list of all the aveiras that you did on this ship in one Shabbos. “Bim, be'er tza shem, bim, bim be'er tza shem ha'aretz ha'nikra efshar shegeg.” Excuse me, “ha'maarets.” “Bim ha'maarets ha'aretz ha'nikra efshar shegeg.” If by an ha'maarets, by a person who doesn't know any better, we could say that all these

11:23 Speaker 1 things are a shegeg, that all these things were mistakes. “Ein gam limitzvos zemeni gel ben yeshiva.” There's no such meritorious way of looking at things when somebody's a ben yeshiva, when somebody knows Torah. If you know Torah, then I can't even say you were a shegeg when you did these things. You were involved, or your brother in this case was involved, with many, many aveiras, and you're a ben yeshiva, so there's just no excuse. The Rebbe says, "Move on to ‹speaks Hebrew› as a brother and a relative of this person, ‹speaks Hebrew› you might see the way that I'm describing this as being particularly harsh." And yeah, I do. ‹Speaks Hebrew› But when you think for just a little bit about the truth, ‹speaks Hebrew› you should understand that this is nothing. What I'm saying is nothing to compare it-- to compare to the severity of what you're telling me happened. ‹Speaks Hebrew› and the darkness that you find yourselves in. ‹Speaks Hebrew› You would call something like this a test, a big test, a big difficulty. How could you? ‹Speaks Hebrew› You could have sat down and learned Torah in a restful state. ‹Speaks Hebrew› And even in purity, ‹speaks Hebrew› in a yeshiva right here, ‹speaks Hebrew› instead of that, you traveled to “Eretz Yisrael,” a place where God's eyes are always looking in a way that is the opposite of “mitzvah.” ‹Speaks Hebrew› which is the equivalent of all the “mitzvahs.” Says, "You could have sat and learned Torah in a state

12:34 Speaker 1 of Torah, and instead you travel to “Eretz Yisrael,” a place where God is always looking to violate Shabbos, which is equivalent to all the “mitzvahs.” Uh, so the Rebbe says, "No, I, I don't think I'm being too harsh. I think I'm not being harsh enough." ‹Speaks Hebrew› If you have even a little bit of “Yirat Shamayim,” ‹speaks Hebrew› you'll find a “chacham” to give you a “tikkun” for this sort of “aveira” of traveling on the ship on Shabbos. ‹Speaks Hebrew› And maybe, just maybe, you'll be forgiven for it. Maybe, just maybe it'll work. So to give you an idea of the kinds of letters the Rebbe was sending to individuals in the '50s, this is one example. The fact is, this is an example that is very similar to like ten other letters that are just like it from the '50s, where the Rebbe talks to individuals about how upset he is about people traveling on Shabbos. So it's very clear how strongly the Rebbe feels about this. It probably isn't surprising, therefore, that, uh, that word spread pretty quickly that the Rebbe was not a fan of these ships. And, uh, one way that the word spread is that the Rebbe didn't just talk to the individuals. The Rebbe also started writing letters to “rabbonim.” Uh, we have, we have many of the letters the Rebbe wrote to “rabbonim.” He wrote to, uh, Rabbi Herzog. He wrote to Rabbi Moshe Feinstein. We're gonna look at one of those letters inside. He wrote to Pesach

13:33 Speaker 1 Frank. He wrote to Rav Reuben Katz. He wrote to Rav Unterman. He wrote to “Minchas Yitzchok.” I hope maybe we'll look at that “shulhan” inside as well. The “Minchas Yitzchok” responded with a “shulhan” that completely supports the Rebbe's position, uh, across several fronts. And most of the “rabbonim” that he wrote to agreed with his “psak.” So word began to spread that the Rebbe had this opinion, and eventually, the Rebbe's opinion was published in an Israeli newspaper in nineteen fifty-nine, and, uh, it was called “Ayin BeAyin.” It's an ‹speaks Hebrew› called “Ayin BeAyin.” I don't know “Ayin BeAyin.” And the headline was ‹speaks Hebrew›. The, uh, the Medina, according to Jewish law, the government according to Jewish law, the battle on the seas or the storm on the-- the storm between the waves. There we go. The storm between the waves. A good, good, good headline. Good headline. Um, and the Rebbe-- And they published the Rebbe's opinion, and they really-- The article was very defend-- was very much on the Rebbe's side. Even though it was coming from what sounds like a secular publication, it was very much on the Rebbe's side. They say, "Here we have a Rebbe who's not just an expert in Halakha, but is an engineer of ships, and he says that you-- he says you guys are ‘mekallel Shabbos.’" In response to this, Zim put out a statement. They put out a statement. They wrote a, they wrote a, um, a comment in response to this newspaper article, like a,

14:34 Speaker 1 uh, a letter to the editor responding. And there was a Mr. Frankel, who at the time was one of their chief engineers, maybe their chief engineer, and he explained that the Rebbe was severely misinformed, that the Rebbe is right in theory, but he doesn't know how these ships work. These ships are special. They are frankly magic. These ships run automatically. And he explained at length that these ships, every detail of them, are run automatically. Now, in response to that, the Rebbe, uh, in response to that, the Rebbe explained in not just an English letter we're gonna look at now, but also in several letters that he wrote to “rabbonim,” that given his expertise in engineering, he knows that's not true. The Rebbe calls their bluff. They claim that their ship was automatic, and the Rebbe says, "I know ships, and I know for sure." I mean, remember, this is the late nineteen fifties. The Rebbe, as of the nineteen forties, this is only ten years earlier, was literally building ships in the Navy Shipyard and was literally a ship engineer who had an expertise in ships. He knew what ships could do and what they couldn't do. And the Rebbe responds at length that-- And he actually, we're gonna see in this letter in English, lists the ways that they are lying, lists the lies that they're telling. He said, "I can tell you this can't be automated, this can't be automated, that can't be automated," and shows that they're not telling the truth. We're

15:34 Speaker 1 gonna look at that letter, but before we look at that letter, I just wanna tell you the bottom line. The bottom line is that after he sent that letter or after they received that letter, after Zim found out that the Rebbe was responding line by line to their claims, uh, Mr. Frankel left the company. So this chief engineer wasn't a member of the company anymore. A new guy was in charge of the company. So the newspaper went back to this new guy, and they asked him, uh, "Do you have any response to the Rebbe's claim that according to engineering, it is not possible? According to modern en-engineering of the late nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, it's not possible to have a ship that's fully automated." The new guy responded, ‹Speaks Hebrew› He says, "I have nothing to add to what Mr. Frankel said." So the company had no answer to the Rebbe. Let's take a look at some of the Rebbe's, uh, there's a letter in English. This is from twenty-one Shevat of, of, uh, Yud Ches, and this is the Rebbe's explanation of, uh, of how it's impossible that the ship is being run automatically. We're gonna scroll down to this part of the letter. Okay. "I mention this particularly in reference to your inquiry regarding the Sabbath desecration which is perpetrated by the Jewish ocean liners." You'll forgive the way I'm reading, but I am reading an English letter from the Rebbe, so I figure I should use his words. I'll translate from

16:40 Speaker 1 the English. "Perpetrated by the Jewish ocean liners. The claim that everything is done automatically during the twenty-four hours of the Sabbath," I'm gonna say Shabbos, "is absurd, and I state it with the fullest authority, being an engineer myself and having studied marine mechanics." Look at the Rebbe here. The Rebbe says, "I'm telling you that the claim that this is being done automatically is absurd. I state it with the fullest authority, being an engineer myself and having s-- myself and having studied marine mechanics. For one thing, certain machinery cannot be operated automatically, especially those connected with the steering, radio communications, services, and similar ones." The Rebbe says, "I know the parts of the ship that have no-- There is no tech to automate them, so not possible. No way Zim figured out how to automate ships in a way that nobody has up until now. Second, even if those machines which can operate automatically are-- even those machines which can operate automatically," the Rebbe says, "there are some machines on the ship that can be set to autopilot, but they are required by their very operation, as by international law, to be checked every few hours." The Rebbe says, "Not only do engineer--" And by the way, every engineer will tell you this about every automated thing. Even nowadays, even nowadays with automation, engineers are required to check things regularly by law, and things break down, things need to be watched. I mean, you, you probably know that a plane can fly on autopilot and do

17:43 Speaker 1 m-- Nowadays, a lot of airplanes can take off and land on autopilot. Nonetheless, there are laws that there are certain parts of the flight that pilots are not allowed to use autopilot for, and even in the parts that they are allowed to use autopilot for, they have to watch them 'cause they require small adjustments. The Rebbe is saying this even about ships back then, and certainly back when automation was not nearly as good as it is now, you needed somebody to make small adjustments all the time. So the Rebbe says, "Even machines that are operated automatically are required by their very operation, as well as by international law, to be checked every few hours, which involves direct Shabbos desecration a corresponding number of times during the twenty-four-hour period of Shabbos. They are ‘mekallel Shabbos’ every time they keep international law by checking these machines. Thirdly, certain so-called automatic machines, including some of the boilers, require a change of parts periodically every six hours." These are things only the Rebbe would know. The Rebbe says m-- the ship-- the boilers that existed on the ships back then required their parts to be changed every six hours. What are you automating? When the affected sections of these machines are stopped and restarted for that purpose, diminishing or starting again. When you do that, when you replace those parts in the boilers, you have to turn off the machine before you put the part back in. This is something only an engineer would know, but he's saying, "I'm

18:41 Speaker 1 telling you, every six hours, you need to be ‘mekallel Shabbos’ in order to keep your boilers running, so don't tell me it's automated." In addition to the above, there are so many instances of a ship plying the high seas, I love the English here, which involves Sabbath desecration, as anyone who is familiar with the technical aspects of modern shipping will know. The Rebbe says a lot of other ones. A lot of these we saw hinted at in the first letter. For instance, the water which is supplied for drinking, even running water in the cabins, comes from seawater. I'm gonna skip this section just because we read it already previously. Let's go down here. Unfortunately, the Rebbe says, there have been rabbis who have been misled and have misled others on this subject. In their ignorance of the technical aspects involved and under the influence of misleading statements by technicians who, for reasons of their own, did not choose to disclose all the facts, these rabbis have regretfully been misled into thinking or even declaring openly that no Sabbath desecration w-- he was here involves. The Rebbe says here, some Rabbanim are paskening it's mutar, and that's because they've been lied to by the engineers. And that's a real shame because now people are mechallel Shabbos because engineer lied and rabbis are an expert. Fortunately, we have an expert rabbi, and he's the Rebbe. You mentioned in your letter that one of your friends has spoken to a captain of a Jewish boat who is said

19:42 Speaker 1 to have declared that his boat was operated automatically on Shabbos. In this connection, I would like to enclose a copy of a questionnaire that I sent a year ago to the executive of the shipping company. The Rebbe sent a questionnaire to Zim, who had claimed that their ships are navigated automatically on Shabbos. This communication remained unanswered to this day for obvious reasons. Yeah. They never wrote back because the Rebbe said, "Oh, you say it's automated? Here's a list of things that I don't know how to automate. Can you explain to me how you did it?" And they never wrote back because they aren't doing it. They're, they're, they're mechallel the Shabbos. Who claim their ships are navigated automatically during the Sabbath. The communication is unanswered to this day for obvious reasons, for I am sure there will not be found anyone who will state that any of the enumerated items can be worked automatically. This is the Rebbe saying he's sure. You know, we've seen a couple letters where the Rebbe uses a lushon like k'im aduma, or I think, or maybe. The Rebbe is not using any hesitance in this letter. The Rebbe is saying in this letter, "You are not going to find anybody in the late nineteen fifties who's going to tell you that any ship can do what I say it can't." If he has any regard for the truth and does not wish to be caught in making false statements, anybody who cares about the truth and doesn't wanna get

20:36 Speaker 1 caught lying isn't going to tell you that these things I've enumerated on this list can be automated as of late nineteen fifties. Not possible. Uh, I do k-- I, I mentioned this just in passing a moment ago. I wanna emphasize this for a second because I think we're gonna have to end on the English letter today and pick up the other letters tomorrow. Uh, you, you probably-- we, we've been learning a lot of Igeres together. We've learned more-- I think we're up to, like, more than two hundred letters we've learned together. And, uh, we've seen the Rebbe when he is firmly-- when he feels something firmly in Halakha and when he doesn't feel something so firmly. You definitely-- I, I mean, a, a Rebbe's a Rebbe. E-everything's-- I, I don't wanna rank. But what I do wanna say is there's a sto-strong, strong difference between a lot of the letters we've seen where the Rebbe has said, "I, uh, check with Rabbanim," or, "It appears to me," or, "Have you checked?" Where the Rebbe's speaking about Halakha that isn't specifically his area. And what you see right here, where the Rebbe's talking about something that he knows he's an expert on the mitzvos of, where the Rebbe says, "I am completely certain that nobody else is right about this," it's a completely different story. You see answers like this regarding a-as far as I can tell, things that have to do with engineering. The Rebbe has very similar answers to very similar language about microphones

21:35 Speaker 1 on Shabbos, very similar answers about other electronic things that people are messing up, simply because on this particular area, nobody-- the, the Rebbe ha-- the Rebbe outranks everybody in spirituality, but he also has incredible daas haEretz for the way things work, right? He always says, "Talk to Rabbanim, talk to experts." bedside manner Here, the Rebbe knows he's the expert. What other Rav in America, what other Rav in the world was as well-versed in engineering and Rabbanus as the Rebbe? So I think here th-this sorta shows that. Remember the pasuk at the end of Massekhet Sota, where the Rebbe explains that, uh, that humility is not, is not saying, is not saying you're nothing or that you're not as good as you are. Humility is recognizing that you are-- recognizing your place in the world and that somebody else with the same tools might have done better. You see that kind of humility here. The Rebbe is saying, uh, the Rebbe is effectively saying, "I know that I'm the world's leading authority on this, and I'm certain I'm right," and there's just no hesitation. I would like to comment also on your reference regarding the kashrus of the food served on these ships. The Rebbe says, "Let me just throw in the kashrus issue." You can easily see, any rabbi will confirm this, that when food is served by Jews who openly desecrate Shabbos, like on these ships, the kashrus of these foods is under a serious question mark. That's generous. Moreover, even if a mashgiach

22:37 Speaker 1 is engaged to supervise the kashrus of these ships, it would not change the situation since the mashgiach himself is guilty of open Shabbos desecration. His reliability as a mashgiach would therefore be jeopardized. Can't have kosher food on these ships. It's being served by people in mechallel Shabbos, and it's being watched over by a mashgiach who by being on the ship is mechallel Shabbos. The question has been asked if the operation of the Jewish ships involves such a violation of Jewish law, why is there no storm raised in protest in the Holy Land to stop it? Why is nobody-- if-- the Rebbe's making this very clear that it's asur, so the question has been asked, "Why are the other Rabbanim not screaming about it?" And the answer is, the answer will become self-evident from the following two instances. Point one: For some ten years, the supply and distribution of milk in the Holy Land has been in the hands of cooperatives and farmers, many of which have been known to raise pigs under very strong suspicion of tampering with the milk, which therefore made the milk treif. Yet, until last summer, nothing was done about it until finally Rabbi Nissim, he was one of the, one of the chief rabbis, stepped in and banned such milk, inducing the farmers to give up their pig breeding since they did not wanna lose the more lucrative milk business. No doubt you have read about in the paper, surely no one would declare cow milk mixed with pig m-pig

23:31 Speaker 1 milk as kosher, yet for years, this disgraceful thing went unchallenged. The Rebbe says, "I wanna give you a couple things that have happened in Eretz Yisrael where the Rabbanim just haven't stood up until the, until the eleventh hour." One, they used to, uh, there used to be some real funny stuff going on with milk, that the farms that were supplying it also raised pigs, and finally they made a stand, but only, only quite late in the game. Number two, uh, connected with Shabbo- Shabbos violation that was longtime practiced by the paper factory in Hadera. Apparently, they were mechallel Shabbos. This too was only recently stopped by Rabbi Nissim when he banned such paper from use by publishers of sacred literature, said that you can't use it for sfarim. Again, the issue is not in doubt, for no one will say the Torah permits a Jewish pa- paper factory to desecrate Shabbos because it's in Eretz Yisrael. So the Rebbe says this has happened twice lately. Finally-- Now, i-I don't-- What i-- what, what, what, what-- Is this an answer to the question? I don't know. Um, the question asked was, "Why has there been no storm to stop it?" And the Rebbe says, "I'm giving you two cases where there also wasn't a storm to stop it." I think what the Rebbe is saying here is that, uh, that a lot of problems where the s-- where people in Eretz Yisrael were openly violating Jewish law are only recently become-- are only recently getting addressed.

24:29 Speaker 1 And I'll give you two other examples of things that were only recently addressed, and this is one that you're going to see addressed soon, but just isn't there yet, I think. Finally, I must forestall another argument in connection with Jewish ships. All these letters are long. Some interested parties refer to a book written by Rabbi Waldenberg that has to be, that has to be the, uh, the Tzemach Tzedek. That's, uh, that's his name. In which the legal aspects and conditions under which a Jewish ship could theoretically run this course on Shabbos are examined. I'm gonna summarize here because we're running out of time. The Tzvi-- The, the-- Excuse me. The Tzemach Tzedek had given a list of conditions that a ship would have to meet in order to be able to run on Shabbos, a modern ship. And the Rebbe says, "Very interesting, but the ships do not meet any of those requirements, so I don't know why people are quoting the Tzemach Tzedek to me." Now, the Rebbe says, "I wanna mention that a group of Jewish girls were planning on going on one of these ships. I spoke to them about the, uh, chilul Shabbos involved. They were Mizrachi or Hapoel Mizrachi. They were, uh, they were not, they were not Lubavitcher girls. They were not Ashkenazim girls, they were Sephardim." And the Rebbe explained to them there would be an Issur, and they changed their plans, and they went by air instead. And the Rebbe says, "These girls certainly deserve credit. Actually,

25:23 Speaker 1 would it not be ridiculous were it not for the grave issue involved for a person desirous to go to the land which is reg-regarded even as holy by non-Jews, that he should choose a way of transportation which involves open violation of one of the Ten Commandments." The Rebbe says, "These girls deserve credit, but also at the same time, I'm not sure they deserve that much credit 'cause it's kind of ridiculous for anybody with half a brain to travel to a land that is regarded by everybody as being holy, and in that form of transportation violate the rules of the one who makes that land holy." Just wild. The Rebbe says finally, "I trust that you surely know the Shulchan Aruch begins with the admonition, 'Do not be influenced by scoffers.'" That's the opening of Shulchan Aruch. Don't listen to scoffers. "I sin- sincerely hope that this will be so in your case. May God help you to save others from the open desecration of Shabbos, which when committed unwittingly, is one of the most serious offenses, espec-especially as insofar as the onlooker is concerned. The distinction between conscious or unwitting Shabbos desecration does not apply. With pray-prayerful wishes for your success in all your affairs and in connection with the above, in particular, with blessing," the Rebbe's signature. So we're going to obviously continue this tomorrow. We have a lot more to talk about. What we covered today, just as a quick review, we told the whole story of the Zim Shipping Company. We talked

26:23 Speaker 1 about how in the early years of this going on, in the early mid to mid-1950s, the Rebbe wrote a lot of individual letters to people. We read one of these letters where he very harshly explained how serious it was to, uh, to be on these ships on Shabbos, the violations of Shabbos that were involved. We talked about how the Rebbe reached out to a lot of Rabbonim to get support for this, and that ultimately, the Rebbe talking about this behind the scenes started going public. People started finding out about it. They published a big newspaper article describing the Rebbe's Shita, and Zim put out a statement saying, "No, Rebbe, you're wrong. We are automated." In response to this, we just read a letter in English where the Rebbe at length describes point by point the things that cannot be automated on a ship, tells us in this letter that he actually sent the Zim Shipping Corporation a, a questionnaire asking them, "Can you tell me line by line how these things are au- are, are automated when I know they can't be?" And they didn't answer, and the Rebbe says, "They didn't answer because I know they're wrong, and they don't wanna lie or be caught in a lie." So we have the Rebbe analyzing how the automation is not possible. What we are going to just-- I, I think I told you, but I'll mention it again, that, uh, in response to this, the newspaper went back to Zim and said, "What do you,

27:19 Speaker 1 what do you answer-- what do you respond to that, to what the Rebbe is saying?" And they said, "We have nothing to add." So the answer was they had nothing to add. Obviously, the Rebbe was completely right. What we're going to look at tomorrow, with God's help, is we're going to look at the letter that the Rebbe sent to multiple Rabbonim. He sent one form letter to several major Poskim. Um, the Rabba- the Rabbonim Eretz Yisrael, uh, essentially just agreed with his letter, so there's no follow-up. But Rav Moshe pushed back a little bit, and we're going to look at the back and forth between Rav Moshe and the Rebbe on the Rebbe's Shita regarding ships. And finally, at some point, probably our third class, we're going to look at the Shailas and Shuvas where the Rebbe put together a Q&A on frequently asked-- more of an FAQ. An FAQ, uh, frequently asked questions about this Inyan that is finally printed in Likutei Sichos. Okay, that's it for now. This is Igress, and this is the second part of our multi-part series on the Rebbe's Shita, the Rebbe's battle against the, uh, ships that would violate Shabbos, the ships from the Zim Shipping Company. Uh, just as a quick recap, we discussed yesterday how the Zim Shipping Company, the Zim Shipping Company from Eretz Yisrael, they began offering transatlantic cruises from Israel to the Ni-- to the United States. These cruises took more than a week when they traveled between the US and Israel. Uh,

28:25 Speaker 1 the ships were piloted by Jews. They had essentially fully, uh, Jewish passenger lists, so they were clear violations of Shabbos. There was no room for a heter at all. Uh, we spoke about how the Rebbe began in the 1950s speaking about this to individuals who wanted to embark on these voyages somewhat quietly. I don't know how quiet it was. The Rebbe would send pretty loud letters. We read one of those letters where the Rebbe just goes through the list of Issurim this person's brother had violated by using one of these ships to travel over Shabbos. Uh, but by-- o-over time, the Rebbe's opinion became much more widely known. It was published in newspapers, published in magazine articles. People started publicizing what the Rebbe thought about this. And the Rebbe began writing to Rabbonim. We listed some of the Rabbonim that the Rebbe wrote to, asking them to formally come out with a Psak against this ship. In all of these letters, the Rebbe leverages his unique expertise in both Torah and engineering to say that he's an authority on Torah, but much more importantly for these letters, that he is the only authority on Torah, says the Rebbe, who about himself, the only authority on Torah who's qualified to talk about the engineering of ships, given that that was his area of expertise, something that throughout the '40s he had, uh, spent a lot of time on in the Brook-- in the, uh, Brooklyn shipyards working on, working on naval vessels. Uh, we saw letters

29:29 Speaker 1 that described the issues. We heard that, uh, Zim essentially lied to him, that they, uh, that their response to a magazine-- to a newspaper article about this was that everything is automated. This really set the Rebbe off, if you can say such a thing. I don't mean to say that. It didn't set him off. You know what I mean. This really got the Rebbe going because, uh, the Rebbe knew that you couldn't automate these things. Then we saw, uh, that the Rebbe sent them a questionnaire explaining, "Can you explain to me how you automated each of these systems that I know cannot be automated with modern technology?" And they never wrote back to the questionnaire. We saw a long English letter where the Rebbe goes point by point over the things that cannot be automated and the things that would require regular input. Some very simple things that even it doesn't take, uh, an engineering background to understand, that all automated systems will require some degree of maintenance. But some of them were really surprising. The Rebbe said that he was aware of one system that required maintenance every six hours no matter what, which was an actual violation of Shabbos to maintain it. So the Rebbe unveils this as being completely false and, uh, demonstrates that, uh, this definitely would be a violation of Shabbos. Now, the, uh-- I forgot to tell you, we're gonna see it a little bit today, that the Rebbe had a simple solution for Zim. He had two possible

30:30 Speaker 1 solutions that would, that would, uh, not require them to shut down their business or not travel between Eretz Yisrael and America.

30:35 Speaker 2 Uh, one of them, he said, "Why don't you just stop in the middle of the ocean on Shabbos? Just stop in the middle of the sea." ZIM claimed that was dangerous. The Rebbe says that he knows better, and it's not dangerous, and we're going to see in the letter that we're gonna read today, the Rebbe's gonna explain to the Rabbonim why it's actually not dangerous for a ship like this to stop in the middle of the sea, and he's gonna explain the engineering that makes that completely safe. At the same time, the Rebbe says, "Fine, you don't wanna stop in the middle of the sea? Why don't you stop at a port on the way?" ZIM had responded to, uh, people who'd asked them this question that there were no ports available along the way, and the Rebbe just lists them in some letters. He goes, "What do you mean? There's Bermuda, there's a..." He lists all the places that you could stop that would make sense. The Rebbe's sitting there with nautical maps going, "You could stop here and here and here." So the Rebbe gave them solutions. They did not-- They were not interested. The Rebbe couldn't stop them. The end of the story. Again, I didn't tell you the end of the story last time. Probably should have when we were doing the, uh, introduction. Eventually, in the late 1960s, ZIM shuts down, and the reason why they shut down is simply because air travel becomes more affordable, and nobody really wants

31:28 Speaker 2 to take boats anymore. So this is a problem that lasts for something like, uh, the early 1950s till the late 1960s, about twenty years total, maybe eighteen years total, and that's it. Anyway, we're jumping back into our story, which is- They shut down only their passenger, their passengers, uh, s- Yeah, I mean, I mean, their cruise, their cruise lines, yes, yes. Their cruise, their cruise ships between Israel and America stopped in the late 1960s. Um, the, uh, the thing that we're gonna look at today is the Rebbe's letters to Rabbonim. And one-- the main letter, the Rebbe wrote to many, many Rabbonim, uh, but he wrote something of a form letter to most Rabbonim. Most Rabbonim got the same letter, and we have that letter. Uh, it's published in Igris, but they also put it in Itur Igris, the Neshamah Sheh, which was the easiest place to find it 'cause it's collated nicely, and, uh, that's the letter in front of you. It's written on the year Tuv Shin Tes Zion, so earlier than you might have expected. This is before the big, uh, the big article that we read. Uh, so Tuv Shin Tes Zion, uh, 'fifty-seven, 'fifty-six, fifty, fifty-six, I guess it's fifty-six, and it's a long letter. We might spend our whole time on this letter, but here the Rebbe lays out multiple reasons to the Rabbonim why he believes they should aser this, this voyage. Uh, what I'd like to do today, if we have time, and if we don't, we're

32:30 Speaker 2 gonna do it tomorrow, is that this letter got sent to, uh, the Rabbonim, the Rabbonim of Eretz Yisrael, the chief Rabbonim of Eretz Yisrael. It was sent to many other Rabbonim as well, and among them, Rav Moshe Feinstein. And when it was sent to Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote a teshuvah back that is published in the first volume of Igris Moshe. And the teshuvah specifically is written to, look at that, I have it on the screen. It says, "I'm writing to Rav Atzadek, Agudat Meforsim, uh, the Rebbe Shlit"a, Milabavich. So the, we, there are letters in Igris Moshe that are specifically addressed to our Rebbe, and, uh, this is about this topic that, that he's responding to this letter. So we're gonna at some point learn the Igris Moshe as well. And the Rebbe was not fully happy with this letter in Igris Moshe. We have the Rebbe's response to this letter in Igris Moshe. So I'm hoping to do that over the next day or so, and to conclude with the FAQs that the Rebbe published in the back of Lukete Sivas. Okay, we've taken up enough time with my introduction. Let's read. "Shalom Rav Uvrach," the Rebbe says. It's on your screen. This is the letter the Rebbe wrote to the Rabbonim. Uh, following all of the excuse me, faxes, not faxes, uh, what are-- telegrams, Shoshlachti, that I've sent to the holy Rabbonim, Shlika, Nachav B'Gash Ut'Chasah, Shlika B'Efen Dechal. I'm sorry that I sent them with such an urgent,

33:37 Speaker 2 uh, I don't know how you send telegrams, but I guess they can be sent with an urgent marker on them. The Rebbe apologizes for sending an urgent telegram about this issue. Kivshashaila Am De'Al Teref, V'Kamacham Nashim Minashim Min Yisrael, Charedim L'Dvar Hashem Al M'Vucha, Ki Pito, Ki Pito Es Am B'Amor L'Ham Ki Yesh Chatet Bar M'Rabbonim S'Rashis. The Rebbe says, "I had to hurry up with this telegram because a lot of Jewish people are coming to me and telling me that these are people who fear Hashem, these are Charedim L'Dvar Hashem, these are Charedim, these are frum Jews, and they're very confused because they were told, they were lied to, they were convinced that the Rabbonut HaRashit, that the, uh, that the chief rabbis of Eretz Israel had allowed them to make this journey. And, uh, Linsevanim Es Yisrael, they say, "V'Amdu Laflik Kaveri Yam Ma'Chadim B'Erev Shabbos K'De'Shahu." And they're planning on leaving this Erev Shabbos, uh, these boats, as I'll show you in some subsequent letters, all left on Friday, which does not help halakhically at all. So they all left on Fridays anyway, which is, uh, halakhic-halakhically problematic even in, uh, even, uh, a lot of the heterim you can use for traveling before Shabbos in ways that will violate Shabbos don't apply on Friday. So anyway, the Rebbe says, "I had to send an urgent telegram because people are trying to board these ships now, and there's a rumor that you guys allowed it." Kivenshe B'Neem Hayu K'M'Kei L'Shapanu Elai V'Shaila

34:42 Speaker 2 Mamarti L'Hem Al Pi Divver V'D'Halan. Based on what I'm about to tell you, people who turn to me with this question, I give them the following answer. Sh'Bora B'Enai, that it is very clear to me. Sheyefshad Av HaShav Hanus HaRashis Hiptira Nisiach Efu, that I'm sure that the Rabbonut did not matir this. So people, there was a rumor going around that the Rabbonim of Eretz Israel had said this was mutar, and people who asked me the shaila, says the Rebbe, I told them that I, based on what I am, the everything that I'm about to tell you, I know it's asur, so there's no way they matir it. This just isn't true. She'Ezavnei Alehem M'V'Er G'D'vara Inyan, and it's Al Ti L'Shleach M'Brachman Al, so I had no choice but to, uh, send these very urgent telegrams to clarify the matter. And then the Rebbe says, U'Muvun Gadel HaSifuk Ruchani V'Yiskav Av Divrach. Uh, you should understand I was incredibly satisfied, I was relieved, that's the best way to put it. The Rebbe says, "I was very relieved to find out She'Ein Nachon HaDavan L'Neh Kavah Hetter Mehem, that, uh, this was not true, the rumor that you guys had given a heter on this, and that they, you, they, they, they had not received this heter from you." So the Rebbe starts off by saying in these first two paragraphs, people were saying that the Rabbonut was okay with this, and that's why I had to send urgent telegrams. I'm very glad to hear

35:41 Speaker 2 that you're not okay with this. Vayid'as Lidi. Since this entire issue has come to my hand, however, says the Rebbe, and here is where the fun starts. Avekiz Ebbe Izni Kudush HaLem B'Mesisis Chavestati K'Mar Midvaki V'Lo Yavi Kan K'Mar M'Kemish B'Vareh Nitzach L'Doch D'Vi Yaduin. The Rebbe says, "As long as I'm here anyway, as long as we're talking about this, I'd like to explain to you why I feel so strongly about this, and I'm going to explain line by line," the Rebbe says, "all of my issues, uh, in Halakha here, and I'm not gonna bring in the Maamakeinis. I'm not gonna tell you my sources because you're big Rabbonim. You don't need my sources. I don't need to tell you my sources. You guys will figure it out." Excuse me. I feel my, feel my voice going. A shaila ana. The Rebbe says, first of all, I want you to understand that the shaila we're asking right now is not a Shulchan Aruch shaila. It's not brought in Shulchan Aruch in the places you would expect. You're not gonna find this in a normal book. The normal case in Shulchan Aruch, and I have it on the screen here 'cause we're gonna need it when we look at the Igros Moshe. There's a case in Shulchan Aruch that's in Siman Resh Mem Tes, uh, whether you're allowed to embark on a ship on Shabbos, and there's dinim about when you're allowed to go, when you're not allowed to go, if you're allowed to go three

36:46 Speaker 2 days before, uh, three days before Shabbos Friday. There are dinim about how to embark on a ship that's going to be traveling over Shabbos. The Rebbe says, uh, that's not the case here. That's not what we're talking about. The situation we have at hand, the question is whether you are able to be on a ship that can also travel on Shabbos, whether that's also. So the question here isn't whether the ship is violating Shabbos. The question is about this ship, . The Rebbe says, "Let me put this in other words." The first psaktin needs to be, let's talk first of all about the people who own the ship. So first of all, let's ask the question whether the people who own the ship are allowed to set up the times of their travel so that the ship will be traveling on Shabbos and that the machines there will be working over Shabbos. Or whether since these are Jewish people who own the ship, they are obligated to set up their schedule so that the ship does not travel on Shabbos. Either by stopping at a dock or by stopping in the middle of the ocean. The Rebbe says, "The real question here isn't about whether you're allowed to get on the ship. The real question is whether the owners of the ship are allowed to do this, and that's not something addressed in Shulchan Aruch." Shulchan Aruch doesn't talk about whether a Jew owning a ship can have machines on their ship running over Shabbos.

38:09 Speaker 2 That's obviously not the case we have in . So the Rebbe says, "The question I really want to address is whether the owners of the ship are doing anything wrong." Because remember, the owners of the ship here are Jewish, so the question is whether they're allowed to schedule their ships to run during these hours anyway. The thing we need to decide in this case, we only need to figure out one thing, says the Rebbe, and that is, does operating these ships on Shabbos violate, violate Halakha? That's all we need to know. If it does violate Halakha, then all we need to figure out is whether it's Pikuach Nefesh, because that's the only time you're allowed to violate Shabbos, right? So the Rebbe says, "That was very systematic. We have really two questions on the table. Question one, does running this boat on Shabbos violate Shabbos? And question number two, is that violation something that's mutar because of Pikuach Nefesh, because it's dangerous not to do it that way?" The Rebbe says, "The final thing that we need to address is whether it would be better if I don't say anything, right? Maybe it's better if people make mistakes. They're better they should be sheging rather than they should be aware of the thing that they're doing wrong." The Rebbe then puts in parentheses that, uh, if they're coming to us with a shaila, we have to give them an answer, so that isn't really going to get us out of any trouble. But the vast

39:19 Speaker 2 majority of people traveling on these ships aren't asking Rabbonim whether it's mutar or not. Would it be better not to make much noise about this in the first place? Now, the Rebbe is going to, uh, over many pages, uh, go through these three points. That is point number one, the Rebbe is going to establish that indeed it is asur to operate these ships on Shabbos. Point number two, he's going to establish that there's no Pikuach Nefesh here whatsoever, and they should just stop in the middle of the sea or at a port. And point number three, he's going to establish that it doesn't make sense to say they'd be better if they were sheging again because of reasons of Hillul Hashem, and because of reasons, uh, because of other reasons that he'll list in the letter. Okay. The real meat of this letter is, of course, the first point, the Rebbe proving that the ship may not be operated on Shabbos. Anybody who knows, at least a little bit of how these ships work, anybody who knows how the machines work, how the ship works, anybody who knows how these ships work will tell you, and even if you only know a little bit about how these ships work, they will tell you that Shabbos violations we have here, definitely ma'avir, definitely making a fire, definitely mevashal, definitely, uh, cooking stuff, to many others. That's just because of the way that these machines work. There also are going to be legal violations. You might remember

40:33 Speaker 2 some of this from the English letter. The Rebbe is summing up some of these points, and in some cases, going to expand upon them. There's also legalities. Very frequently, several times every twenty-four hour period, you need to measure certain things. You need to write things down in the ledgers. Uh, cer-certain details must be written down according to law, and you can't say for twenty-four hours you're not gonna fill out the logbook. So the Rebbe knows enough about shipping to know that in addition to the mechanics of the shipping, there are simple, there are laws here. And if an Israeli shipping company says that for twen-twenty-four hour period every week, we're not recording anything in our logbooks, we're not gonna write down... Even when you check machines, you need to make certain measurements. We're not gonna write things down. That's ridiculous. Everybody knows according to law they need to write these things down. They also need to send telegrams. They send telegrams all the time from ships. They also receive telegrams. When they're steering the ship, they have to receive all sorts of wires and transmissions constantly. So, uh, it's, it's, it's impossible that, uh, first of all, the machines themselves violate Shabbos, but second of all, the people who are working the machines are constantly having to write. They're constantly having to receive. There's all sorts of things they have to do. And you should note that a lot of these things involve turning on and off electric lights. And I don't know anything about

41:44 Speaker 2 ships, but my guess is because, because I can picture what, I can picture what happens in ships. You know, you have to flick switches, and these flick switches that you flick turn on lights. So a lot of these transmissions and these recordings involve turning on tiny lights. And these tiny lights, every time you turn them on or off, violate Shabbos The Rebbe says, "I heard something very strange." "I heard something very strange," says the Rebbe, "and it seems that because a lot of people are not experts in this, they've accepted it as fact when it makes no sense." And that is the following. We can guess what this is. That is the automation idea, right? The Rebbe says, "I've heard a strange rumor that some people seem to believe that these ships can all be run automatically on Shabbos." Says that this does, uh, make some sense, says the Rebbe. If you know what they're talking about, you know what they're talking about. This is somewhat automated, but it has nothing to do with us. For Shabbos purposes, nothing's automated here. The Rebbe says it's true that the machines can run for a certain amount of time automated. So if they're just telling you that the machines are automated, they're telling the truth, but they're not halakhically automated. What the Rebbe means by that is . A couple times a day, you gotta oil them, first of all. The, and now, any, any scientist would call that automated. If something runs on its own, you

42:58 Speaker 2 just have to occasionally pour oil on it, that would be called automated for a scientist. That's not automated for halakha. You're still doing something. You also have to occasionally, uh, set them up again. I think probably means to calibrate them. Sometimes you need to set them up from new. I know, I, I know you're nodding, Surly, but I'm surprised that word jumped into my head. I always have trouble when I need to translate something like that. Calibrate. Calibrate. Anyway, between each of these adjustments, it does run automatically, but it requires adjustments. There's a difference between automation and a perpetual motion machine. It's not a perpetual motion machine. It requires input. Not only rearrangement from beginning, you also have to change the, uh, you have to change, uh, things as the machines are working. You have to change things all the time based on what's going on outside these machines. The Rebbe says, "I don't have room here to explain to you what I'm talking about, but there are multiple adjustments necessary in these machines." So they're not exactly lying, the Rebbe's saying. They're not exactly lying. The reason why they're getting away with telling you it's automated is because scientists call that automated, but that's not automated bec-- in ha- in halakha. A lot of these things you need to do to keep the automation running are . So two things can be true. The ship can be automated, and it can require to keep it automated, and that's what the Rebbe's saying. Every machinist

44:14 Speaker 2 will tell you this. The Rebbe says that if they're making the claim that they can set up these machines before Shabbos in a way that's going to make them run automatically for the entire Shabbos without any input and any adjustments from a mechanical perspective is something that we would call the greatest , the greatest, the greatest, uh, ignorance. Obviously, these things are not automated in that respect. And this is just a really cool parenthesis. I, I have no logical explanation for this parenthesis except that the, uh, uh, except that the Rebbe wants to say it. The Rebbe says, "You should know, at least theoretically, we could one day make a ship that would run fully automatically." The Rebbe just says this in parenthesis. The Rebbe says, "I envision a ship with a... I envision a ship that could one day run perpetually with no outside input for an indefinite amount of time." But it'll be many years before this is possible. So I, I, I don't know what that's doing there, but it sure, it sure does tickle my fancy. I'm happy to see that. Tesla. Tesla. There you go. I mean, those require charging stations like every twenty minutes, right? But at the same time, he's saying that in theory, you could, you could make such a ship one day, but not in the nineteen fifties. Okay, so that's point one. Point one is that the Rebbe has established that running this ship does violate Shabbos, and that was the Rebbe's first goal. Now,

45:38 Speaker 2 the Rebbe's second goal, if you remember his goals at the top of the page, goal number one was to establish that this ship violates Shabbos, and goal number two, over here, was to establish whether there is a problem of Pikuach Nefesh, whether we can say that we are protecting lives by, uh, by allowing this sort of violation of Shabbos. Regarding the second point, right here. Eh, whether there's room to say that there's a sakana here, that, that basically you set up before Shabbos, and then on Shabbos, if they don't make these small notations and these adjustments, people's lives will be at risk, and therefore, this Shabbos violation is permissible. At least there may be a possibility of a danger to a life. The Rebbe says, "I know for sure you could stop this ship in the middle of the ocean, drop anchor, or stop it at a port over Shabbos, and it's poshut that that wouldn't be an issue. Therefore, you can't tell me that you need to keep these machines running for Pikuach Nefesh when you could plan your route to have a twenty-four-hour layover at a port." The Rebbe says, "I'd also like to add," and this is the Rebbe saying in response to claims that Sim had made. Sim had made claims that stopping in the middle of the ocean was dangerous. The Rebbe says, "That's not true at all. There's not even a small danger to stopping a ship in the middle of the ocean." Now, I was thinking about this,

46:54 Speaker 2 and it sounds like it would be dangerous. The Rebbe's gonna explain why not, but then I remembered something else, which is that we right now have a, a bunch of aircraft carriers sitting in the Gulf of, uh, sitting in the Gulf, right? That, that's where they-- All, all the time, the Navy sends ships to sit in place, and they, they, they don't keep moving. It, it is not necessarily dangerous if you know what you're doing to, I mean, obviously, you need to keep a track of weather reports and move ships out of the way if there's dangerous things happening. But ships are allowed to stay still in the middle of the ocean. They're big, they're, they're big vessels. That's exactly what the Rebbe's going to say, is that, "What are you talking about? I..." The Rebbe works in the Navy. He knows that, uh, worked in the Navy at this point. He knows that you can keep ships in the middle of the ocean, uh, for twenty-four hours. I'm sorry. I think I skipped a line. Uh, yeah. There we go. Not even in, not just in the normal winds. You're gonna tell me in good weather conditions you can leave a ship in the middle of the ocean, but not if it gets rocky. Even in pretty strong winds, you can keep a ship right there in the middle of the ocean. The way that a ship is built allows the ship to withstand that sort of rolling. The period should go there. I

47:58 Speaker 2 think they put the comma in the wrong place. Because it's built properly, it's not going to have those sorts of problems. As long as you build the ship right, it can stay in the middle of the ocean. So Tim, if your ships are that rickety, maybe no one should be on them. That's my words. Sometimes it's true. You see like a hurricane coming, and that you can forecast, and you do need to move the ship away from that. But at the same time, most weather conditions, you can plop yourself in the middle of the sea. And furthermore, and this is the main point, these are, these days are not like the days used to be. We have forecasts for hurricanes. You don't get surprised by hurricanes anymore. Not at sea, and certainly not in people who are involved in shipping. They see the storm patterns far in advance. There's all sorts of, uh, there's, uh, there's all sorts of, uh, ways to know if there's going to be a problem over Shabbos, and the Rebbe says that if you do-- So let's say we, we drop anchor on Sha-- we drop anchor Friday night, we keep the ship in the middle of the ocean over Shabbos, and then we hear that a hurricane is coming, and we got an hour to get out of the way. The Rebbe says, "Okay, then that is a Ko-- that is the Koach Nefashot. That is the Koach Nefashot. That's a problem." But then the Rebbe says, "I know

49:07 Speaker 2 these ship machines. Don't tell me you can't just boot them right up and start moving the ship again. Haul the anchor up and move the ship again." The Rebbe says it doesn't take any time to get these ships back online once they're offline, uh, and sta- and stalling in the middle of the ocean. So, uh, in response to that claim, the Rebbe says, "Ridiculous. It's definitely not the Koach Nefashot. You must travel over Shabbos once you're embarked on this journey. You have multiple options. You can stop in the middle of the sea safely, or you can stop at a port." The Rebbe says, "I, I've-- This is the strangest thing I've ever heard." The Rebbe says it's, it's extremely Mozeh, extremely strange claim that you're more likely to hit another ship while you're standing still. And I, I don't need the Rebbe's paragraph to explain why that doesn't make sense, 'cause as the Rebbe himself is going to say, you don't need any engineering or shipping expertise to know that something standing still is less likely to hit something than something moving. Everybody knows that doesn't make sense. Ships move quickly, in our days. It's harder to change their direction. As, uh, as a bridge, right? Uh, it's hard to change the direction of a ship once it's moving. If you see... If you're on a ship and you see another ship coming toward you, there's not a lot of time to move out of the way because everything's moving so quickly. Sorry. Uh, whereas

50:37 Speaker 2 it does not apply if the ship is standing still. So, uh, if there's a, if there's a, if there's two ships that are both in motion, it's very difficult for them to both alter the way they're going. But if you see from a distance that there's a ship standing still, you can just go around it. It's actually easier to move out of the way. This also applies to things like, uh, I mean, this applies to cars. It, it, it, what's more risky, hitting a moving car or hitting a parked car? I mean, it just doesn't make sense. It also, the Rebbe says, you, you just, if somebody says this doesn't understand shipping, modern shipping. Nowadays, the way shipping works is that there's a whole seder for who's allowed to go where in the sea. They send telegrams constantly. Nowadays, even more so. They're sending these, uh, radar pings all the time. Everybody knows where everybody is. There's all sorts of ways that ships communicate to make sure that they don't bump into each other. So you're telling me that if a ship stands still, other ships aren't going to know that there's a ship standing still there? Everybody knows. They also have lights on the Special lights on the ships to make sure people don't bump into you. So the way that the The Rebbe says, "These are the systems, the ones I'm listing, the radar systems and the, uh, and the telegram system that they use and the lights that are on the ship.

51:43 Speaker 2 These are the things that exist to prevent two ships from colliding, not movement. Movement is not what prevents two ships from colliding. As a matter of fact, movement is what makes ships, two ships more likely to collide. So, uh, don't tell me that it's dangerous to put your ship in the middle of the sea." "The truth is, I don't need to expand upon this," says the Rebbe. The Rebbe says, "Why am I saying all of this? Because I heard there are some people giving out a heter, and there are two groups of people giving heterim to be on these ships, and the two groups that are giving heterim are actually contradicting each other." And this is really interesting. Listen to this. One group of people who are allowing this. One group of people say that there's no need to, uh, worry about being on the ship on Shabbos because the ship can be run automatically, and therefore it's mutar. The second group says the exact opposite. That's a big sakana if people aren't constantly watching over their ship. Needs special watching. You can't leave a ship alone in the middle of the ocean. So the Rebbe says these two opinions don't work with each other. I wanna unpack that for a second 'cause it's so interesting. What the Rebbe is saying is that you have two reasons people are giving me why this should be allowed on Shabbos, and they don't work together. Reason number one is that this is automatic, and the ship can

52:58 Speaker 2 do everything by itself. Reason number two, oh, well, you can't stop it in the middle of the ocean. This requires constant human input to make sure it's safe. Wait a second. Constant human input on your automatic system? Explain yourself. Right. So the, the Rebbe is highlighting the, the, the fact that they're, that they're, they're making a joke out, they're making a joke out of ignorant people. They're telling people who don't know enough about ships something so that they can sell tickets. Uh, the Rebbe then adds in parentheses. The Rebbe says, "At the same time, I don't know why they don't just stop at a port and make everything easier. There are harbors everywhere." The Rebbe says, "I'm aware of many islands and ports that they are allowed to use that are between here and there." The Rebbe knows the nautical maps. "They put out another heter recently, another reason why they must keep traveling, because they cannot reach from America to Europe in six days." The Rebbe says, "They, they seem to not be mentioning that there are several ports between here and Europe where they could stop." In addition to the fact that they can stop in the middle of the sea. So the Rebbe's giving them two completely workable options, and the problem with these two workable options, al pi halacha, is that since there are two good ways that you could schedule this ship to not, but to not put yourself in danger, either by stopping in the middle of the ocean

54:12 Speaker 2 on Shabbos or by stopping at a harbor on Shabbos, you're not gonna get a heter from pikuach nefashos to do this laf pila. So you're not able to travel on Shabbos on the boat according to the Rebbe's point one, because it violates Shabbos, and you can't tell me I'm allowed to keep traveling 'cause it would be dangerous, because who said you have to keep traveling? Pull over, right? Based on everything we said, it should now be understood. Even if nobody was asking. We couldn't say it'd be better that they're just being shegig rather than meizid. It's better that they should violate Shabbos unknowingly rather than do it on purpose. The Rebbe says, "We're dealing here with a derasa. I've established here we're dealing with a Torah prohibition. Since it's with a Torah prohibition through and through, we can't say, when, when, when you see somebody violating Shabbos b'derasa from a Torah level, you can't say, "Uh, don't tell them. It's better if they don't know." Then you have to tell them." Uh, so that answers Rebbe's question number three. And we're gonna go over time a little bit, so if you have to leave, please feel free. But I would, do wanna finish this letter at least, then I guess we'll do Rev Meshugga tomorrow. In addition to that, many of the people traveling are people who listen to psak din. They listen to halacha, to Rabbonim. They would not travel on ships that were traveling on Shabbos if you told them not to. So

55:25 Speaker 2 if this became a psak and everybody knew they couldn't do this, they would lose a lot of money by not catering to the frum crowd that doesn't wanna travel on Shabbos, and therefore, they would change what they're doing. This is a politic, this is a public message. That would be worthwhile for even one ship. So the Rebbe's saying here is, "Let me also give you a social reason to come up with this psak. Besides the fact that I've already told you it's a, it's a derasa, and I've already told you that pikuach nefsh-- that, that, uh, that sakanas nefashos won't get you out of it, and I've already told you that the idea that they should be shegiging won't get you out of it, let me add another dimension here," says the Rebbe. The other dimension being that, uh, if you come out with a psak forbidding this and tell everybody that they're not allowed to, they might lose enough customers that even one ship changes its route. And if even one ship changes its route, so if they say, "We're gonna make a, a frum ship that leaves the-- that stops on Shabbos," that, that would be one less ship violating Shabbos. A lot of the, a lot of the groups that are putting this out claim that they have something to do with religion. They, they fly under the flag of religion. They would follow this hera if you put it out. So the Rebbe saying that there's a lot of social reasons

56:26 Speaker 2 for this. These letters are all on the long side. The Rebbe says, "I do wanna add." So the Rebbe says, "Now, uh, this is going to be important for tomorrow, so we may as well say a little bit of it now," which is that, "I wanna add," says the Rebbe, "that some people are saying, 'Okay, fine. It's an issur de'oraisa to drive these ships. It's an issur de'oraisa to keep driving these ships. And we have to tell them, and it's good if we change what the, what the Jewish ship pilots are doing. But if the ship's leaving anyway, why can't I go on it?'" You know, sort of the, uh, the classic stump the rabbi question, "Why can't I ride the subway on Shabbos if I don't have to pay? The train doesn't change because I'm sitting on it," yeah? So they're saying, uh, "So Jews are violating Shabbos, that's a shame, but at the same time, they're gonna do it anyway. Why can't I hitch a ride on the ship?" So the Rebbe's going to answer that question now. First of all, you are able to travel on ships that don't belong to Jews. Even if you're gonna tell me that there's somehow a mitzvah of buying from fellow Jews that o-- supersedes the problem of encouraging Shabbos violation, which isn't true, you could, if you really wanna support your fellow Jews and really wanna travel on these ships, you have a way to do it that's kosher. And you know what you do?

57:45 Speaker 2 Get on the ship before Sh-- get on the ship before Shabbos, travel until Shabbos, get off the ship, and then get on another ship after Shabbos, right? You can always, you can always disembark. The Rebbe says, "A-after that sure would be inconvenient, really make the trip a lot longer, but, uh, don't tell me that you have to support Israeli businesses this way." And, uh, then he gives a lot of sources about whether this would have a problem with the rule that we saw a little bit in Shulchan Aruch that we're really gonna dive into tomorrow about whether, uh, departing three days before Shabbos, uh, helps in this case or whether either way you're in trouble. You always can take the plane. You can certainly, on a weekday, travel by air, and then they'll be able to get there in a single day. And as a matter of fact, I think we saw yesterday that there's a, uh, there's a story where the Rebbe at one point, I think the Rebbe mentions it, the, the Rebbe mentions that a bunch of girls went by plane. I think what the Rebbe doesn't mention is that, uh, he personally played, paid for a lot of plane tickets to get people not to take these ships. After the Kfar Chabad disaster that happened also, I forget the year, but in the late nineteen fifties, early sixties, had to be, uh, the Rebbe personally paid for El Al tickets for each of those bochurim that he sent over to Kfar

58:57 Speaker 2 Chabad because the only alternative was them going on this ship, and the Rebbe said, "No way." So he paid for the plane tickets. So the Rebbe, uh, feels very strongly. You can, you can choose a non-Jewish shipping company. You could choose a Jewish shipping company and get off the boat. You could choose an airplane. There's many other options. Don't tell me it's motza to get on this ship. Besides, there is the fundamental question here. I'm not gonna read this one inside because we essentially saw this already in two other letters. But what he says in this section here is, "I also wanna add that if you're traveling on the ship, uh, it's true you might be able to get around benefiting from a Jew's work on Shabbos because they're driving the ship anyway, and it's not changing because you're on it. You're going to have to violate Shabbos by being on the ship." And this is the thing that we saw in the English letter, this is the letter we saw yesterday, that all of the water systems on the ship are tied to electricity, are tied to work that has to be done on Shabbos, that all the electrical systems are for every Jew on the ship, so it's not that all the food on the ship isn't kosher because it's being watched over by people who are not frum and not keeping Shabbos, that all the wine on the ship is a shaybe, won't be able to eat, won't be able to drink.

59:57 Speaker 2 Uh, the Rebbe then in this paragraph says that, "I can also prove to you you can't be on this ship because functionally, you can't be on this ship. You'll violate Shabbos by being on it." Also, the Rebbe says, "I wanna point out when it comes to these very big ships," the Rebbe says, "I just wanna add some halakhic language here, that there's a pesik reisha on this ship. I'm willing to say there's a ps-pesik reisha. That means a certainty, a halakhic certainty, that at some point something will go wrong with one of the machines over Shabbos and will require actual repairs on Shabbos, which makes it similar to the dinim that we say like a bicycle, for example." One of the reasons why you're not allowed to ride a bicycle on Shabbos, even inside an eiruv, according to a lot of poskim, is because it is, uh, somewhat inevitable that the bike might break down. You know, a chain slips off and you might have to fix it. So the Rebbe says, "I just wanna add that in here too, that you wouldn't be allowed on the ship on Shabbos 'cause there's a pesik reisha that one of the machines is gonna break, because machines break every single day." Okay, this is vigorous, and I believe this is the last of our three-part series, although no promises. It could end up a four-part series if it takes us too long to get through this. But, uh, we are continuing the saga of the Rebbe's war

1:01:02 Speaker 2 on ships that are traveling on Shabbos, and the discussion today is going to focus on the end of the Rebbe's letter that we, uh, we finished up yesterday. The Rebbe, as you might recall, wrote a long letter to many, many rabbonim, among them Rabbe Meshulam Feinstien, but many, many other rabbonim as well, including the rabbonim in Eretz Yisrael. And, uh, in that letter, in that letter, he gave many reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to travel on Shabbos. I wanna summarize the Rebbe's major points because we did get cut off a little bit last time. So, uh, first of all, the Rebbe says that there's no need to talk about any existing seafaring Shabbos suggias, although suggias are kind of irrelevant to what we're talking about here. There's only one pertinent question, and it's whether it's motza for a Jewish company to have Jewish captains and sailors and staff. Uh, operating a ship for Jewish people on Shabbos. That's the only question, on-only question on the table. The Rebbe demonstrates that the operation of these ships on Shabbos entails multiple Torah prohibitions, and in response to the claim that these ships are somehow automated to run on their own on Shabbos, the Rebbe has multiple counterclaims that stem from his engineering expertise, and we've seen those at length. The, uh, second point the Rebbe addresses in this very long letter is that, uh, he has to figure out whether once Shabbos begins in the open sea, the ship acquires the din of safek safek safek,

1:02:08 Speaker 2 where it would then be permitted to violate Shabbos to protect all the people who are on board. To that effect, the Rebbe says absolutely not. He demonstrates, he demonstrates that these ships can safely stop in the middle of the sea without fear of weather or collisions, or make use of a number of harbors between the US and Europe. So the Rebbe makes it very clear that we don't have a safek safek safek chet here, so there is a real violation of Shabbos for anybody driving the ship. The final point is whether we can make the claim that it's better that these individuals who are on the ship act unwittingly rather than intentionally, motzi sheshegigan, and to that, the Rebbe says that when we're dealing with a clear issur Arayot, uh, a Torah violation, there is no room for this sort of logic. So the Rebbe has three major points then in this letter. Uh, number one, operating the, operating the ship is an issur Arayot, Torah violation. Two, there's no safek-- no, uh, no safek safek safek, uh, no fear of, uh, no danger of death that would justify it. And three, we need to tell everyone about it. A-as for the passengers, the Rebbe describes in that letter multiple ways that they'll violate Shabbos and Halakhah by being on this ship. We've seen a lot of them before, but the Rebbe rehashes a couple of them, using the water systems, eating the food, benefiting from the electrical systems. And the Rebbe soundly rejects the

1:03:08 Speaker 2 idea that the mitzvah of assisting the State of Israel financially by going on these joi-- on these voyages or, or letting them travel on Shabbos would justify the violation of Shabbos. The Rebbe concludes the letter by saying that there's also hilul Shabbos in public. There's this, a problem of hilul Shabbos b'farhesia, in public, a sort of a public desecration of God's name, by the fact that a ship flying under the flag of Israel, seen in the entire world as being representative to the Jewish people, shows everybody many, many Jews violating Shabbos. And he talks a little bit at the end of this letter about how that damages us in a more existential sense. So the Rebbe sends this letter to many Rabbonim. He sends this letter to the Rabbonim in Eretz Yisrael, and he also sends this letter to Rav Moshe Feinstein. What I wanna show you today is that Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote back, and his response is published in Igrut Moshe in the first volume, and it is a fascinating response. It's a letter specifically addressed to the Rebbe, so it's not just Rav Moshe weighing in. It's a letter addressed in response to this letter that actually the dates line up. So if you look at the date of this first letter that we just read, it was, uh, 20 Tammuz of Five Thousand Seven Hundred. This one is 1 Av, so this was only a week later or two weeks later. Rav Moshe responds, Five Thousand Seven Hundred, and he writes

1:04:11 Speaker 2 that he's writing to Yedidi. He calls him my dear friend, my beloved, my dear friend, ienia, the Rebbe's name, uh, Admor Milabov-- Milobavich. So he writes Yedidi, which I think is very kind, that he's very friendly with the Rebbe, says he's my friend. And, uh, and we have here on the screen, I know this is an Igrut Shiur about, uh... This is officially a Rebbe Igrut Shiur, but today it's an Igrut Moshe Shiur, because today we're gonna look at a letter from Rav Moshe. Uh, I'm sorry that the copy is so funny, the, the page kinda curved on the end. Anyway, uh, this first paragraph is astounding. The, um, Rav Moshe writes, I received your letter and the copy that you sent to me that was also sent to the Rabbonim Eretz Yisrael. Says that this has nothing to do with me. I don't know why you sent me the letter. So that's what Rav Moshe says, "I don't know why you sent me the letter." Because it's simple. I don't know why you have to send me simple things, 'cause of course, I agree with you that it's asur for them to be running these ships on Shabbos. Completely agree, uh, that it's forbidden to drive these ships on Shabbos. Even if these ships depart on a Sunday, it's completely asur. Why? Because nowadays there is no danger that would permit them to keep on driving it on Shabbos. They could leave it in the middle of the sea. Even if I didn't have

1:05:25 Speaker 2 your engineering expertise, says the, says, uh, says Rav Moshe, I would be okay. You don't need to be an expert to know that it's not dangerous nowadays to stop the ship. He says even a non-expert knows that even automated things need input from normal people who are not automated, presumably. So he says, obviously asur. Obviously, not even a, a non-Jew can't do it. Obviously, a Jew can't do it. And he says, I never would have thought, God forbid that I would have ever machered such a thing. So if you were writing me this letter in order to inform me of the din, you didn't have to. I, I, I don't need to be an expert in engineering to know that you're right about this. That's how Rav Moshe opens the letter. Rav Moshe sounds hurt. He said, "How could it have even occurred to your greatness that I would have allowed such a thing?" I never would have done that. It should also be known, it, I mean, it's well known, it's publicized that I've told people that it's asur for them to drive these ships on Shabbos. That's not the question that we are addressing right here, he says. So this is where Rav Moshe takes a turn. He says, "First of all, of course, I agree. Second of all, that's not the question that's been brought to me. The question that I'm supposed to be answering is a slightly different question." That's not the question. It doesn't make any sense to ask these

1:06:46 Speaker 2 sorts of questions in America, and Rashaim don't ask questions. What he means by this is twofold. First of all, he says that the question of whether these ships should be, should be, uh, operating on Shabbos is not a question for American Rabbonim. That's what he means that it doesn't make sense to ask this question in America. And, uh, as to people who are going to violate Shabbos anyway, not going to listen to what the Rashaim, they're not going to ask me shailas. So who exactly is asking me shailas, says Rav Moshe. The, the pilots of these ships, the, uh, captains of these ships, the shipping companies, Zim, they're not reaching out to me, says Moshe. And the Rashaim, the people who are violating Shabbos, and he calls them Rashaim a lot of times in his letter. The Rebbe obviously does not, but Rav Moshe constantly. So Rav Moshe says, the Rashaim aren't asking me questions, and the company's not asking me questions. So you're mistaking my role here. My role is not to answer the question that I agree with you on. My role is to answer a question that I don't agree with you on. And here Rav Moshe dives into the second half of the letter. So part one, Rav Moshe says, I agree it's asur to run these ships on Shabbos, the shipping company is wrong, and no one asked me, so who cares? Now, , the question that is being asked to me, Rav Mesha says, . Individuals are coming to

1:07:45 Speaker 2 me asking, , if they're allowed to be on this ship, because they're not going to do any malacha, they're just sitting on the ship. on one hand, it's true, they are benefiting from work that is being done by a Jew on purpose on Shabbos. said, "Actually, I think that's totally fine. I think it's totally fine." Why is it totally fine al pi halakha? Because it's not more strict than if they were violating Shabbos themse-themselves, and they themselves would be allowed to violate Shabbos in this scenario. Why? they were to sail, they were to leave, uh, leave America on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, it would be mutar for them to leave. even if they know for sure that they're going to be in a situation of danger, and they will then need to do certain actual malacha, actual violations of Shabbos, they would, uh, they would, e- they're allowed to depart on these days even if they know they're going to encounter a situation of pikuach nefesh, and they certainly can't stop the boat because they're not people who are driving the boat. So they have exactly one choice. They can't jump off the ship. Their only choice is to keep on traveling. furthermore, it's mutar m'kol sh'ken. First, let's add on. So first of all, he's saying here that, uh, even if you were driving the ship at that point, um, and you had some sort of control over it, uh, we, we, we would allow you to actually violate Shabbos to protect your life,

1:09:04 Speaker 2 even if you left on a Sunday. And furthermore, these are passengers. The passengers, they don't do anything . And as a matter of fact, they are benefiting against their will. Some of them have no benefit whatsoever because they don't care if the ship stops for a day, and as a matter of fact, they would prefer it. So Rav Mesha is saying that from a halakhic perspective here, um, I would never maftir the captains to make this decision to drive their ships on Shabbos, and I'm saf saf that you would even suspect me of such a thing. Um, but what I'm totally going to allow is passengers to depart this ship, to depart on the ship on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. Why? Because halakha allows it. Rav Mesha says, "I'm a posek. You're not gonna get around me on this one. Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, uh, you are allowed to do so for any reason al pi halakha, even if you personally know that you are going to have to personally violate Shabbos for a sakana, and this will apply even more so if you're just benefiting from another Jew doing it, and you don't actually want them to do it. Uh, you'd be fine if they waited in the harbor, so you don't care. You're not doing any isur whatsoever." Now, Rav Mesha asks, . Obviously, I can't allow this on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday for any reason. even if there's a mitzvah for the tra-- even if, even if, uh, even if there's a

1:10:07 Speaker 2 mitzvah for the travel. There's a yesim that's brought in the Magid of Ram. I debated showing you guys the Shulchan Aruch, but the truth is, we will run out of time even if I don't show you the Shulchan Aruch. The chet mitzvahs, just trust me on this one. The chet mitzvah, chet mitzvah, isur ein l'chater. Just trust me on this. I checked it, and he's right, that the chet mitzvah, that you're allowed to go on certain voyages that will ultimately violate Shabbos for a mitzvah, this only applies, uh, . That would only apply if there's no other way to get there. That doesn't apply nowadays. There's other ships nowadays, um, other ways to get from, uh, from either from America or, uh, excuse me, other ships from Eretz Yisrael to Eretz Yisrael, from America or from other countries. You don't need to travel on this ship that violates Shabbos. But when it comes to a chet there for those first three days, for Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, there's a specific rule in Shulchan Aruch that on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, you don't have to be concerned about entering into a situation that three days later is going to be a danger for you. There's no isur there. So Rav Mesha says, "I'm just answering the hal- the, the shailah. They're not doing anything asur by getting on that boat Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, even if it's going to require them to violate Shabbos, and certainly if it's gonna vi-require the crew to violate Shabbos on

1:11:20 Speaker 2 their behalf." Even if it's for no reason at all, you're allowed to go on a walk, and this is the same thing. He says, "Even if there is, uh, no need for it at all, you don't need to get, you don't need to be on this voyage. It's a pleasure voyage. If you go on this, uh, you go on a pleasure cruise, you're allowed to leave on a Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday knowing for sure that a Jewish crew is going to violate Shabbos for you, uh, when Shabbos comes because of a sakana. As a matter of fact, you can do it knowing you'll have to violate Shabbos for a sakana. You don't need a good reason. Any reason, any reason will suffice. So if these, if these passengers tell me, "I saved a little bit of money," or, "The trip was more pleasant this way," I can already maftir it because there's no particular rule for this chet there. This is what I ruled. This is my reasoning. So what, what Rav Mesha is saying over here, just to, uh, to summarize as we keep on moving, is that, uh, we can't allow it on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. They definitely can't get on the ship on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday because that's not allowed even for a mitzvah if there's any other way to get there per the Magid of Ram, uh, and there are certainly other alternatives. So Rav Mesha is saying, "Of course, I would give no chet there for the latter

1:12:23 Speaker 2 half of the week." And as we're about to see, since all of these ships were departing on Friday at the time, he was not giving out this chet there kipel because they were all departing on Friday, and he says that's asur. But if you're asking me Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, they need no justification. Anyone can depart on a journey that's certain to require Shabbos violation and a sakana, even for no reason at all. So obviously, it's mutar. That's the ruling I gave, and that's my reasoning. Now, Rav Mesha says, "I, I'll meet you halfway on Svara. I would love if somebody would make a rule that nobody is allowed to go on these ships. Maybe this would prevent the Roshei," again, he calls them that, "from traveling on Shabbos. Maybe this would prevent the Zim Corporation from running their ships if somebody would come out with a statement." So Rav Mesha says, "I would love it if that happened. Then tell them that maybe they would have to stop at a certain port rather than traveling on Shabbos. Rav Mesha says, "That's outside of my jurisdiction. I can't make a, I can't make a psak that affects the entire Eretz Yisrael. I'm an American rabbi. So since the question here is not about the entire shipping company, it's about individual frum people who are gonna be on the ship, I have a clear answer, and it is mutar. Rav Mesha says, "Not really negel v'neisa because they do take off only on Fridays right now, and

1:13:34 Speaker 2 I do say that's asur. They would take off if they would, I don't know, cast off on Sunday, Monday, or, you can tell I don't know boats or ships, uh, alef, bet, gimel, on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday. You certainly would have to give them a warning. To tell them, uh, you have to give them, you can give them the chet there, tell them not to use the lights, as you mentioned in your note, kademah. I've, I've said this to Fedish." Uh, so then Rav Mesha, Rav Mesha signs his name. So Rav Mesha is saying to the Rebbe, um, "I would love to, uh, forbid this entirely for everyone, but that's outside of my jurisdiction. That's gotta be the rabbinate. And if the ships leave Sunday through Tuesday, uh, I'm gonna tell them it's mutar, and I'm going to, to be on that ship, and I'm gonna tell them that they need to be careful not to use the lights and not to use the water, and, uh, and that's that." So Rav Mesha sends this letter back to the Rebbe, which essentially says, "I agree with you in theory about the ship itself, but if you're asking me how I'm going to rule on individual frum people who wanna be on this ship, it's mutar, and I'm not gonna say it's asur for any reason whatsoever." So that's the, Rav Mesha's answer to the Rebbe. Uh, sort of friendly but firm. Friendly but firm. Uh, Rav Mesha has an answer. Excuse me, the Rebbe has

1:14:35 Speaker 2 an answer to Rav Mesha, and, uh, we're going to spend the rest of our time on this answer. And with that, I believe we're going to conclude our, uh, our series on the ships because the Rebbe's answer here reveals a lot about the Rebbe and a lot about Rav Mesha. And what it really does, and it's so interesting to me, is that up until now, we've been commenting on this throughout, that the Rebbe usually doesn't sound like such a posek. He writes in a different way. He doesn't write like he's writing psak. But up until now, we've seen him writing psak, and we gave reasons for this. The Rebbe recognizes himself as the foremost expert in this field, and he's writing like a rav, not like a rebbe. But in this letter back to Rav Mesha, after Rav Mesha voiced these concerns, the Rebbe writes like a rebbe, and he writes like a king. So here you stop seeing it. The, the, the Rebbe takes off his rabbi hat and puts on his melech hat, and you really see it happen right here on the page. Uh, so without further ado, this letter is from Yud Dalet Menachem Av. So the Rebbe sent this. Then Rav Moshe's letter was on Ches Menachem Av. The Rebbe sends this only a few days later. Only a few days later, the Rebbe writes back, "Shalom u-bracha. I'm responding to your letter from the tenth day of Menachem Av," which is interesting 'cause in Igrot Moshe it's published as

1:15:31 Speaker 2 the eighth day. Maybe that's when the Rebbe received it. "B'kes v'desheila aniase sheb'mechtavi." You, uh, responded to my letter about the boats. Uh, "k'nir sh'lip rash tematzov k'dei tzarchei." The Rebbe says, "I must not have explained myself well enough, so allow me to clarify." Now, remember the Rebbe, the Rebbe's letter was like nine pages long, but he said, "I guess I didn't explain the situation well enough, so let me do it again." "Vehuhu. Betach gam l'kaved harasi yedua matzov sheba'ven es haRabballe aniase yishma l'psak din hashof. Onach rim bimiatan tsare miditan." The Rebbe says, "Let's talk, let's talk about the situation. You know the situation." It's ver-- It's, it's for better or for worse, and the Rebbe here says for worse. Because of our many sins, the situation on the ground is that they're only going to listen if they're to, to Halakha. That Zim Corporation, this group running these ships, is only gonna listen to Halakha if they gain something from it or, "yes na'ach nimhirush eidech kim apsakti nim lehefetz moaz," or more appropriately, if they feel they're going to lose something if they don't. We need to make this a financial thing for them, or they're not gonna listen to the psak. "Perish yugrem es va'anes." We need to see that because they're violating Shabbos, they need to see that they're losing passengers. "Sh'lo chas cheres aide aniase. V'lachein. Kol nise b'nia machlish aide ze efshari shishma onalu psak tera." Says every single person you're putting on that ship is weakening the

1:16:37 Speaker 2 possibility that they're going to listen to a psak, that they're not allowed to, that they're not allowed to pilot their ships on Shabbos. Because as long as there's people who are going on the ships on Shabbos, they're not going to listen to us. Rabbonim can tell us that it's asur, and they're going to say, "We don't care. Our bottom line is what matters." So it's gotta hurt their bottom line. "Kemish nasiya aniabor shel sura filu bim tafli bim alaf." Since it's clear that driving the ship, as you agree in your letter, as Kavod, as Kavod Harasi writes in his letter, as Rav Moshe writes in his letter, that the company itself is doing something asur even if they weren't to depart on, on Sunday. "Arzei sefas heter chas u'shem nise ba aniazu afilu hayah heter barum m'kol b'kol." Even if you had a ironclad heter, and the Rebbe's saying, "Afilu ima heter barum m'kol b'kol," as if the Rebbe's not so sure it is. Even if your heter was as clear as you're making it sound, "Shev shadi shesev zeh nitukin filu Shabbos v'ehassia." It is, it is getting rid of the possibility that one day we will fix the public desecration of Shabbos that's happening. "L'as derai salei dei baal aniase." So the Rebbe here is telling Rav Moshe that, uh, every single passenger on this ship gives Zim a financial incentive to violate Shabbos and is, in a way, complicit. So even if your heter is rock solid, it removes any chance of

1:17:37 Speaker 2 us fixing this. And, uh, here you really see the Rebbe's priorities are shifting. He's saying, uh, he's not, not-- It's not that the Rebbe's going over the head of Halakha, but the Rebbe's saying, "You're, you're, you're being too short-sighted when it comes to this. If you allow people to go on these ships and tell them that it's mutar, even the individuals for whom you think it's mutar, even if you're right that it's mutar, you are also making it impossible that the situation ever gets any better. So you're helping feed, you're helping feed the situation and, and make it so that they'll never stop violating Shabbos." "Shve den dan mechiv kolech ve'achli shabam niaz zeh. Leilecheineini decho yisroel haRebbe zeh." Here in this paragraph, the Rebbe says, "We all need to work together to stop this, and this is everybody's responsibility." Every passenger on that ship has a responsibility to try to prevent the ship from violating Shabbos, which means they have a responsibility to vote with their feet by not attending. And the Rebbe says this is not just because, "Kol yisroel arevim zeh ba'zeh." I'm gonna jump through this paragraph a little bit, um, although I would like to read some parts of it. It's good. The, the Lashon is just so much fun. Says also, the nations of the world see Israel as being the thing that represents the Jewish people, and because of that, this becomes a, uh, a public relations nightmare for us. This becomes an issue where the entire Jewish

1:18:36 Speaker 2 people look like they're violating Shabbos. "B'kesh lozeh lo afli safik melavia timhoni." I'm not able to stop my shock about this. And then the Rebbe says, "Ve'adei asei," I do need to read this part inside because this is so relevant. The, uh, the Rav Moshe had said in his letter that he feels that it's outside of his jurisdiction to, uh, be telling the entire state of Israel what to do. I mean, a rabbi in America isn't allowed to pasken for Eretz Yisrael. And the Rebbe says, "You're totally wrong about that. You should be pasuking for Eretz Yisrael." Look at this. "Dez ashri vadi nade gam she-" Oh, excuse me. "B'kesh lozeh," uh, here we go. Uh, I'm not able to hold back. Uh, yeah. "B'kesh lozeh. Lo yochan li safik melavia timhoni." I'm not able to ex-- to hold back from expressing my wonder, "ve'adei setari," and even more so, my great pain. "Asher haguda sarabanim shetechas v'chol ha'amim," that the haguda sarabanim in America is being quiet about all this. "Ashri vadi nade gam lahem shehalach v'niguel et datias v'eretz ha'kedesh tibonem sekineru dasa ka'al artzeh sabris." Everybody knows that what goes on in Israel is heavily influenced by what goes on in America. The general public, especially when it comes to religion, mainly cares what American Jews think much more than they care about what Israeli Jews think. Israelis might not admit that, but Americans know that, that what we think matters to them a lot more than they're willing to admit. So

1:19:40 Speaker 2 the Rebbe says, "Velu lo hayim yifchadim bim yanum sheim pachad sha." If the American Rabbonim were not afraid of imaginary fears, "u'megalom dapim bruur," and they would reveal their clear opinion on this matter, "b'gel ah al halas ani," is when it comes to driving these ships on Shabbos, "lechamim b'gel acharin yam miyados asher shamon," also regarding other Jewish principles over there. If American Rabbonim would be loud and proud about their opinions, "borer Asher matzoh sham HaShem legam ra shehu ata." The entire religious situation in Eretz Yisrael would change. "Va'atanah kezeves. De'esham marade asra v'kula." The, uh, mistaken, the, the dishonest claim that there is somehow a marade asra over in Eretz Yisrael, and so it's forbidden for any Rabbonim in America to mix in because they have rabbinic authority over there. "Mu v'shein la kol achizim matias." That has no relation to reality. "Kei v'shi yadu ah she'al chamah magen al hadash ela ban b'eretz ha'kedesh tibonem sekineru tali bim yirush eizim lam eretz esibris." Because it is well known that if we wanna defend the rabbis of Eretz Yisrael when they're right about something, the only backing that we can give them is by pasukening like them, because people trust American Rabbonim in Israel more than they trust Israeli Rabbonim in Israel. "Kemich mikhan ba amomim ve'kes yanna gam al zeh gam al af." Furthermore, that's where the money comes from. So they trust Americans 'cause Americans are the ones who supply their money. So the Rebbe's saying, "Don't give me this claim that

1:20:48 Speaker 2 somehow American Rabbonim should mix in in Israeli issues because, uh, because that's, uh, that, that's infringing, hasagos kul, infringing on their rights." It's the opposite. Uh, the only thing that can really bolster Israeli Rabbonim is American Rabbonim, who control the purse strings and also control public opinion, weighing in and backing them up. So this isn't an issue of jurisdiction. This is an issue of American Rabbonim not backing up their Israeli counterparts and using the full force of the power of being in America to influence Eretz Yisrael. And, uh, you know, you can never read into anything too deeply, but, uh, but, you know, a lot of arguments were made, uh, to the Rebbe that he should be in Eretz Yisrael, especially given his global reach, and the Rebbe pushed back for many reasons, but this is certainly not the least of them. The Rebbe, a, a Rebbe in America has a lot more influence than a Rebbe in Eretz Yisrael. That's without a doubt. Now, the, uh, I wanna make sure we got all of this. Yes, we, we, we spoke about that. Good. Okay. Now, in this part of the letter, the Rebbe says, "I just wanna respond to the tshuva itself." So first of all, the Rebbe has established that the general, the general, uh, answer doesn't make any sense what Rav Mesha is saying. We need to make sure that no individuals go on these ships because every individual that goes on is complicit in the Shabbos violation of this ship. And

1:21:51 Speaker 2 in the response to the claim that you, Rav Mesha, aren't able to issue a psak that forbids the Zim Corporation from operating from America, says you're totally wrong. You absolutely should be issuing that, as should all the American rabbin. But now the Rebbe says, "Let's get into the meat and potatoes of your actual tshuva." Says, "But first I want to add on," and then this paragraph, he just summarizes Rav Mesha's points. Says, "You brought, uh, what you mentioned is mentioned in many of the Shanim, and you mentioned your Sefer Sefarim there, and, uh, regarding this situation." Now, the final say, the Rebbe says, "Interesting tshuva, but I don't think it has anything to do with what we're talking about." So, uh, the final say, in my opinion, says the Rebbe, your, your, your tshuva has nothing to do with the situation. The Rebbe says, "I believe that, uh, that you will, you only get a heter on those first three days, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, if there's some reason to go. You can't go for no reason. It doesn't have to be a good reason. It doesn't have to be l'tzarich mitzvah, but there has to be a reason." If there's no particular reason to take the boat, and you can always go some other way, obviously, you have to do that rather than go into a situation you know is gonna violate Shabbos. Now, this is simple logical, but the Rebbe brings a lot of sources down here. Says, there's a lesson in Menachos that

1:22:57 Speaker 2 means you're, uh, you're being intentionally thick, intentionally foolish in order to prevent, in order to, uh, exempt yourself from something. This is, uh, the Rebbe's using logic, but then he also brings Maareh Makomot. But the thrust of this paragraph is probably what you were thinking when we originally read Rav Mesha's tshuva, which is, you're really going to tell me that, uh, you're really going to tell me that I can leave for a trip on a Sunday knowing for sure that I'm going to be violating Shabbos on Shabbos, uh, for no reason? That doesn't make sense. Obviously, there has to be some reason, and here there is no good reason. So the Rebbe goes on. In our particular situation, even if they did have to do it, even in that case, you as the Rav who's giving this heter is going to have to clarify that your heter is a really limited heter. So it's true. If they need to, for some reason, travel on Sunday, uh, and get on this boat on Sunday and the ship were to run on Sunday, you could give that heter that you describe in your note. But you're forgetting, you're gonna have to say a lot more than that. You're gonna have to explain that the heter is only for them to be on the boat. But they can't use the water, and they also can't use the electricity. And the Rebbe just goes through his list again. Uh, I'm not going to read that inside, but the Rebbe

1:24:02 Speaker 2 again goes through the list of things that they won't be able to use. Now, I wanna point out further, says the Rebbe. This is a very creative paragraph. What the Rebbe says here in this paragraph is that, uh, hilul Shabbos b'farhesya, when you violate Shabbos in public, the definition of that is violating Shabbos in front of ten people. Now, I don't know what the Rebbe's source is for this, and it might be that the Rebbe is the primary source for this. The Rebbe makes a claim here that there is a bigger hilul Shabbos b'farhesya, a bigger public violation of Shabbos in front of twenty people than ten people, and in front of thirty people than twenty people, and in front of a hundred people than ten people. So the Rebbe's claim here is that if there are people, we all agree that the guy driving the ship is mechallel Shabbos, right? We all agree he's violating Shabbos, Rav Mesha and the Rebbe. Now, if there's ten people watching him, that's mechallel Shabbos b'farhesya, which is a terrible avera that causes hil-- uh, causes hilul Shem Shamayim. It's, it's terrible that there's ten people watching the Shabbos violation. Every person you're adding to that ship, the Rebbe says, even if they're allowed to be there, are witnesses to somebody violating Shabbos, and that makes it worse. The Rebbe is telling him, "You are contributing to the hilul Shabbos b'farhesya by putting frum people on this ship who will watch people violate Shabbos." It is a very

1:25:09 Speaker 2 creative claim. Uh, says, These are, uh, these are people who are, who are getting on the ship to violate Shabbos for this purpose. Says, Certainly hilul Shabbos among ten people is, uh, is, is not the same as hilul Shabbos among hundreds of people, so you're adding to the problem. Here it says, And a further reason why I don't think your tshuva is exactly right. I also don't know why you didn't stand by this particular point. There's also a kosher kitchen on this ship, and the kosher food in the kitchen is not kosher, as the Rebbe explained in many other places. As the Rebbe explained in many other places. So also there's a kashrus issue. It's very important, says the Rebbe. If you have a second to stay, this one paragraph is very interesting. Uh, says, The Rebbe says in this paragraph, he's teaching Rav Mesha psak. He's saying to Rav Mesha, "Certainly you know that you can't ask a Rav a shaila, and he gives you an answer, and he doesn't tell you the details of the other things that this answer is going to cause you to violate." Uh, you might have thought that you could tell this, uh, you could, that you could tell this person, "You're allowed to get on the boat on Shabbos and just be quiet about the kitchen problem or about the water problem or about all the other issues." The Rebbe says that's not how psak works. This is the thing that we're dealing with. Giving any heter

1:26:32 Speaker 2 for, to allow them to travel on the ship. If somebody hears that you said that it's mutar for them to get on this ship, they're going to think they're allowed to eat and drink on the ship. They're going to think they're allowed to use the water and the electricity. Certainly, they're not going to fast on Shabbos, so they assume that if you're giving them a heter, you're giving them a heter to eat. They can-- Nobody assumes you're giving them a heter to starve themselves. So obviously, when you give this heter, you're going to have to explain this heter is to get on the boat, but to do nothing on the boat, upon which it's not really a heter. So what kind of game are we playing? Now, the Rebbe in these final two paragraphs says that in the coming weeks, there is a ship leaving. It's very important you publicize your opinion as quickly as possible that it's asur so that people don't get on the ship and do these esorim, and hopefully, they will switch over to air travel instead. And the Rebbe says, With honor and with blessing, and I await good news from you. And we have the Rebbe's signature. To summarize this letter from Rav Mesha, the Rebbe's response was that, first of all, every passenger, Rav Mesha had allowed passengers to get on these ships, at least on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. And the Rebbe's answer is that every passenger is giving Zim a financial incentive to violate Shabbos and

1:27:30 Speaker 2 is therefore complicit. So even a very good heter won't be good enough for us because it actually makes the problem worse. It makes it very difficult, near impossible, that we're ever going to get Zim to stop doing this. Uh, the Rebbe says we need to fix this problem, first of all, because of Arvos, second of all, because of the hilul Hashem of a group associated with Jews, the entire state of Israel, in the eyes of the nations violating Shabbos. In response to a claim that this is a rabbinic matter, the Rebbe pushes back very hard and says American rabbonim need to weigh in because Israelis care what we think, and in deference to Israeli-- and, uh, any sort of deference to Israeli rabbonim is somewhat ridiculous, uh, because our voice would support, not undermine them. So it's not really deference, it's failing to back them up. The public cares what American Jews think, particularly because we have money, but also just culturally, they care what American rabbonim think. And regarding the teshuvah itself, the Rebbe has a few points. The first is that none of this should apply if there's another way to travel that won't violate a mitzvah de'oraita, and we shouldn't fool around with Halakha. His second point was that the Rav giving this heter is going to need to clarify that the people on the ship can't use anything on the ship, uh, including the water, including the food. And obviously, a posek can't close his eyes and pretend that you're only

1:28:29 Speaker 2 asking one shailah if he sees a heter that will lead you to multiple other issurim. And finally, there was a very creative proof from the Rebbe here that this, that this heter is going to cause a problem, that there's more hilul Shabbos. And the, the more public a hilul Shabbos is, the more public the desecration of Shabbos is, the more, the more hilul Shabbos there is, the more hilul Shem Shamayim there is. So every single person you're putting on this ship, even if you will find a way to make it completely mutar, even if they bring their own food, even if they don't touch the water, even if you have a million reasons why they're allowed to be on this ship, every single person on this ship is causing two major problems. Number one, they are giving Zim a financial incentive to keep on doing this. And number two, they're adding to the degree of hilul Shabbos b'farhestia. There are many, many other letters from the Rebbe on this topic, but almost all of those other letters, as far as I can see, play directly into the things we've already discussed. So I do believe this concludes our discussion of the Deveshita on ships on Shabbos. We, uh, told the whole story about, uh, we told the whole story about how the Zim corporation started up. We saw letters from the Rebbe speaking to individuals about how they, uh, about how they should not be on these ships, and the Rebbe writing letters that were

1:29:27 Speaker 2 very impassioned to individuals about the dangers of being on these ships on Shabbos. Uh, after that, we saw that the Rebbe, um, in response to, uh, there was a, there was a magazine article, a newspaper article. We saw that the Rebbe in response to that was part, was interviewed for that article or was quoted in that article, not interviewed directly, but quoted. And then after his opinion came out, Zim came out saying that, that actually everything was automated and the Rebbe was wrong. Chas veshalom, the, uh, Rebbe responds by, uh, listing all the things that cannot be automated on this ship, and ultimately turns to the rabbonim saying, "You guys have to join me in a psak on this, that this is asur," and explains in a very lengthy letter that we read together all the reasons why this is forbidden. We saw that Rav Moshe pushed back a little bit, and the Rebbe really acting like a, acting like a Nasi more than anything else, comes out and says that, uh, in addition to the fact that I'm not sure your teshuvah is so watertight, I'm not sure that your halakhic conclusions are so watertight. What I'm really sure of is that your conclusions would have disastrous effects on the state of Judaism in general, from the entire Jewish people. And whereas Rav Moshe is thinking about the four or five people who are asking him this shailah and trying to give the correct answer, the Rebbe's thinking about the entire Jewish people and

1:30:28 Speaker 2 the entire world. And I think there's maybe nowhere more clearly than in this letter between the Rebbe and Rav Moshe do you see the difference between the way that a, the way that an adam gadol, a gadol bateira, the posek hador Rav Moshe acts, as opposed to the way that a Nasi, who's responsible for the well-being of the entire Jewish people acts. And it's really not a, uh, a good or bad or a right or wrong kind of situation. It's a simple, it's a simple delegation sort of issue, where different people have different roles among the Jewish people. And Rav Moshe here is very clearly giving a strong halakhic answer, a direct halakhic answer, and, uh, a clear-minded halakhic answer. And the Rebbe's saying that's fine in Halakha, probably, but it's just not going to cut it when you're trying to be a manhig for the entire Jewish people. Okay, that's it.