נשים בשירות צבאי

00:00 Speaker 1 This is Igress. As we spoke about last time, we are now looking at letters from both fifty and forty years ago. Today, we're looking at a letter from forty years ago, from Zion Shvat of Taf Shin Chaf Dalet. We looked at this letter for a minute yesterday, and we used it for a completely different purpose. This was one of the series of letters that we saw where the Rebbe says that a certain idea people have that is supposed to strengthen the land of Israel is, in fact, making things worse, and in the words of the Rebbe, adding fuel to the fire, pouring kerosene on a fire while attempting to put it out. We said we'd get back to some of those topics because they really are, each of them, their own, uh, their own special moment for the Rebbe. Uh, this is a big one. This is, uh, the same letter that we looked at yesterday. The actual of the letter, the topic, is whether women are allowed to serve in the military. And, uh, this is not something the Rebbe said as a one-off. This is not something that we can be in doubt as to what the Rebbe's shita is. Some things, most of the Shiurim, most of the Igress Shiurim, we do have sort of a, uh, disclaimer that is around all of our Igress Shiurim, which is that we're trying to put together shitas of the Rebbe by looking at multiple letters and multiple sefas, but we never really know exactly

00:56 Speaker 1 what the Rebbe's shita is. This is one of those cases where we know exactly what the Rebbe's shita is. The Rebbe is so clear that he does not want women in the, in the American army, Israeli army, in any army. The Rebbe does not want women in the military. There, I said it. Now let's read about it. Uh, it is-- the letter is again , and the Rebbe says, . "I received your letter." "I'm responding to your question." "You're asking me about your daughter." "First of all, you should know that religious women are exempt from the military draft in Eretz Yisrael." He then quotes several psukim. I pulled those psukim just so you can see what he's talking about. He says you should see Devarim chaf beis hei, chaf gimel yud, and chaf gimel tes vav. These psukim are-- let me make them a little bigger 'cause it's so tiny on the screen. The first one he's referencing is . "You're not allowed to wear-- Women can't wear men's clothing, and men can't wear women's clothings." What is the Rebbe talking about here? Not what you would think. He's almost certainly not talking about the uniforms. What, um, poskim are concerned about here is that the Targum Onkelos translates, uh, wearing a male garment for a woman as wearing weapons. And halakhah, it looks like women might not be allowed to carry weapons, use weapons, wear weapons. Certainly part of being a member of the military, i, i think that's a sort of a non-starter

02:09 Speaker 1 in the military, is you need to be around armaments, and it might be a nisadui, a Torah prohibition for women to be carrying, wearing, using armaments. The second thing is chaf gimel, um, uh, chaf gimel yud. That's Devarim chaf gimel yud the Rebbe references. "When you're going to war, you'd be particularly careful to not do any averas." And here the Rebbe's concern is, this is the concern brought in the poskim, that men and women who are mixed together in army units or are taking part in military activities together, they might get involved with each other, an avera could happen. And although that would be bad normally, it'd be doubly bad if they were at war. Because when you have a war camp, you have to be very, very careful about any potential averas. And mixing men and w-- mixing, mixing young men and women together in dangerous situations is kind of a, uh, the recipe for, uh, for those sorts of things happening. We now also have the Rebbe references Devarim chaf gimel tes vav that says that the reason why you have to be careful bec-- is be-- when you're at war is because because God, your God, is walking through the midst of your camp and his job when he's there, God is showing up to save you and to bring your enemies into your hands, and therefore your camp needs to be very holy. There can't be any in your camp. There can't be any inappropriateness in your camp because that would

03:15 Speaker 1 be a, that would be a problem for you and it would be a advantage for your enemies. Any inappropriateness in the camp, once again, would be inappropriate mixing of men and women. So the Rebbe quotes these three psukim and says based on these, certainly religious women are exempt from the draft in Eretz Yisrael, and as a matter of fact, that is the law that, uh, women, that religious women are exempt from the draft. Uh but this girl says, even so, she wants to help Eretz Yisrael. She knows she's exempt, but she wants to help her country. she wants to enlist. She wants to sign up on her own to join the military. uh, based on everything that i just told you, which is that this is a big avera. This is like somebody who says that they wanna put out a fire by pouring kerosene on it, by pouring gasoline on it. she says, "Look, this also, uh, this also puts things out. It flows like water, so maybe it'll put out a fire like water." So the Rebbe is saying here it is admirable that she wants to help. It's admirable and correct that she sees a fire, there is danger in Eretz Yisrael, and she needs to help and somebody-- i'm sorry, and somebody needs to help, that's true. But her solution of enlisting in the military is counterproductive. It would be like pouring gasoline onto a fire. The Rebbe says the same exact thing like a million times. I even have one

04:28 Speaker 1 for you. I don't have, uh, i don't think i have Sruly Friedman here right now. Sruly Friedman is our expert, but even i can read him- I am here. I am here. I'm here. I'm here. You are there? Oh, Sruly, you have a . This is for you. I only pick for you. Nobody else cares. You're the only one. so you can see that? I can read some of it. So this is a from the Rebbe who says, uh, it is well known the of our Holy Torah, the Torah HaChaim, the Torah of life. That it is asur for a Jewish woman to serve in the military, and it's a shock that anybody would even ask such a question. Nonetheless, people repeatedly ask such a question, so much so that there is an entire section on it in Shoel U'Mahshav. And rather than pull every single one of these letters and dig through them, I thought we'd just read through some of the letters that are listed in Shoel U'Mahshav because they collected almost all of them. There were like one or two good ones that they missed that i pulled for us to take a look at, but they got almost all of them and they were kind enough to cut out the stuff in between so that it's a faster read. So this is in Shoel U'Mahshav, which collects the Rebbe's letters on Halakhic topics. This is in Even HaEzer Siman chaf daled. There's a whole section on . This first letter Uh,

05:31 Speaker 1 has a weird source. It's I-Igrus and Minus page twenty-four, so I guess it didn't make it in Igrus Kadesh yet. But in any event, the Rebbe says this, "Mu van v'gam pashta, she'al bas Yisrael." It is understood that when it comes to a Jewish woman, "She'kol echad men michunas beshem bas Sar Rivka, Rachel, v'Lea," that every Jewish woman is called a daughter of Sar Rivka, Rachel, and Lea. "Aleha nemer kalkvod bas melech penimah," and about her it is said that all the honor of the king's daughter should be internal. That means that we expect them to be tznius. That's essentially what he's saying here, and he continues in this paragraph to say, "We expect all those who have influence on them to try to influence them in a tznius direction." I wanna go to the next paragraph. "Afilu im bein ebazar," even if when it comes to the way people see things. "Velegelei lenocham mi yesh bezet ha'ereis, harbe nagelei bnei Yisrael," even when it comes to non-Jews, they might see some advantage to this. "Harbe nagelei bnei Yisrael," when it comes to Yiden, "ma shehu hefefech hateira," anything that contradicts the Torah. "Lo lilba ad sheim bezet ha'ereis." It's not just that no good can come from it, "Elish mevagam chezek v'chorban bor," it destroys things. So when there is something in the Torah, the goyim might take a look at something in the Torah and say, "Uh, I don't see any point in this," and they don't have to keep it, and they're

06:28 Speaker 1 not interested. When it comes to an idea in Torah, a Yid who doesn't keep it isn't just going to not be able to benefit, they'll also cause actual harm. His Lashon here is, "Chezek v'chorban bor," a damage and a compl-- and a clear destruction. "vim emes chaf tzbitte tichyi l'shares es eretz milatev," your daughter really wants to help the-- her-- the land in which she was born. "L'haviteiv l'ami Yisrael," and to bring good to the Jewish people. "Kul evelei chas v'shalom le'aradalei." And she truly doesn't wanna harm them. She wants to help us. "Tazid v'gam le'sadan lisgayas v'tzadad," then she should immediately abandon the idea of enlisting in the military. These are very harsh words. The Rebbe's saying, "If a girl wants to help, she will not enlist in the military, and if she wants to destroy, then she will." He says, uh, the Lashon here is, "L'haviteiv l'ami, so kul evelei chas v'shalom leharalei," not chas v'shalom to cause damage to them. So she should, uh, abandon the idea entirely of joining the military. "Asher asu al pi Torah, it's asu al pi Torah k'mumara v'poskim," it's also us according to the Poskim. So he says it's an-- the Rebbe feels it's an isar areisa. Says the Torah prohibition, it's brought in Poskim that way. I will have you know that, uh, several of the Poskim who bring this, bring it as an aveira rayu of, uh, of gilei areias, which would make it one of the yareg val yavres. That is that it's

07:29 Speaker 1 not just us according to the Torah. A lot of Poskim put in the category of one of the big three things that a person has to die rather than do, rather than do, or at least an aveira rayu of those things. Which means that it's at least in the category and possibly practically in the s-- in the actual halakhic situation of if a girl was told she has to join the military or be killed, she would have to die rather than join. Now, there are a lot of other Poskim who didn't take it quite so far, but the Rebbe's saying there's, there, there, there's some real severity to this idea. "Ve'tok ли с аси в шетах хинах алтарис акейдеш," uh, she is welcome to get involved in chinuch, "altares akejdesh," to help with education, "kidz v'ze beine bayis," or to help with things that are home-related, house-related, family-building related. "Ve'kavod haderech l'bas Yisrael ли снага питера ли ес мушарес эмес." The Rebbe says there are many ways for a Jewish girl to, uh, act according to Torah and still live a happy life in truth. She can be happy doing things that are not aser. "Ov ya'ak nim ze las es chalka l'teveim ami sel kul," and she can also take on a portion of helping, of, uh, her portion in helping out the Jewish people in general. So the Rebbe says there are healthy ways for her to have a good life, a productive life, and a life of helping her fellow Jews, and

08:29 Speaker 1 one of those ways is not by joining the military. Now, the Rebbe mentions Poskim here. So before we go any further, uh, all the Poskim talk about this. This really is just about everywhere. There is an Igris Meshe though that is short, sweet, and has some really interesting Lashonus that I do wanna show you. Um, uh, Rav Brun, when he brings these letters from the Rebbe in clarifying that women are not allowed to join the military, is metsayan to this Igris Meshe also, so I thought I'd look it up. Here, he's talking about women joining the American military. "Giyus nashim l'tzava b'artzei zabris." And the-- this letter, uh, Rav Mesha Feinstein, he talks at length about how much he loves America, but still says he doesn't want the girls serving in its military. So this is from Yud Beis Chad of Taf Shin Mem, and, uh, Rav Mesha. Now, now it's an Igris Shir of any kind. Igris Mesha. It's an Igris Mesha Shir. "Hina, lekiach nashim basilus ben l'tzava, ben l'sheras acheres mem shamshala," taking Jewish girls, uh, to be involved in the military or some other sherut. And, uh, this may be refer-- in America, this isn't what it references, but Poskim wanna say that this also would include things like sher, sherut leumi. Uh, "hu neged toras Hashem yitbarach." Any sort of taking girls to take part in the military or any sort of government role, uh, is against the Torah of Hashem. "Vim chas v'chalila ezem shamshala kava cheik." If, God

09:33 Speaker 1 forbid, a certain government were to make a law, "asuras anashim basilus ishmael eze," if a certain government would make a law that women need to join the military, then it would be aser for women to listen to that. "Vehukig zeh mem shamshala havir al das." This would be like a government deciding that there was a law that everybody had to convert to a different religion. "Shas ishmael eze," obviously we wouldn't listen to it. So Rav Mesha says even if in America they made a law at, at-- that every woman needs to be drafted to the military, Jewish women would have to say no, and this would be considered the same thing as Jewish women saying no to a government forcing them to convert. "Velachen, kash nishma sheyeredtzim bedina shalana." Now that we're hearing that some people wanna do this in America, I don't know what was going on in nineteen eighty, but I guess people were talking about doing this in America. "Likva yecheik kaze," the Congress and Senate ev Washington, the Congress and the Senate in Washington, they wanna set this up, maybe make this a law. "Kasha yadu alanu she'ein dark mem shamshala anasim beditzino artza zabris las izgizeres al Israel neged dinei toraseinu hakdesha." We do know, however, that fortunately, we live in a country where the government and the president doesn't, uh, i-is not interested in making gezerots and making decrees that make us go against our Torah. "Urvadeh baza al idei chas anidiya." They must only be discussing this possible

10:33 Speaker 1 obligation, this new law, because they don't know that it would go against our religious freedoms. "Mif'yon las es kole achrei lishtadel sheyadu anasi v'chan chek Congress, v'chan chek Senate shu neged hateira." Therefore, Rav Mesha's calling on all the rabbis and everybody involved to tell people in Washington that this is forbidden for us so they don't make it a law. "V'gezer l'havi al dasu," and to tell them that this is what-- that we consider women joining the military, being forced to join the military, the same thing as being forced to convert to another religion. "Vi aser l'chabas selichan gezer zu," and that if you do make this rule, we're not gonna be able to follow it. We're gonna have to forbid all the girls from doing it. "Tu achlanu shiamen amen alikve din kaze," I'm certain that if we tell them this, they're not gonna make such a law, "shu gezerah," because it's not a law, it's a gezerah. It's a decree against us. "Vi et ha'teiv lanu ami seruv bedina zu," and it will be good for us in this land, "eshet himna lanu kol hayam," which has been good for us all these days. Uh, "asnna anachnu b'ami Yisrael ohev ei mei sanav av ha'gemura." We love this land with a total love, says the, says, uh, says the, uh, says Rav Mesha Feinstein. "Va'anach beitesh nemanen lemidina lemishal v'leiv v'nefesh." We are, uh, citizens of this place with lev and nefesh, with our hearts and our souls. "Shken diya gam leaban," that will

11:31 Speaker 1 also be the case in the future, but we're not moving on this girls enlisting thing. "V'tigui g'dei lu b'trach and gamar ani kese v'chesem m'shem ha'teira hakdesha v'shem kol Yisrael." The-- says Rav Mesha Feinstein, "I'm writing this and signing this in the name of the holy Torah and in the name of the entire Jewish people." So when the Rebbe says Poskim are pretty strong about this, uh, he's not-- it's not an understatement at all. Let's keep on reading a couple more letters from the Rebbe. This letter is in-- This is the letter that we already read. The next one, is our letter. The next one is in Igris Kodesh, volume twenty-seven, page seventy. The Rebbe writes responding to your question. And he says "I'm shocked that you are even in doubt." It is a psaktin borur b'Torah she'hinuch deshen, our holy Torah, that it is forbidden for a woman to join the military. So I'm, I'm qu-- I'm wondering why you're even asking. Is that the saviad? I don't think that's the saviad, just similar lesson. Okay. Uh, we have a letter from volume fifteen, page two fifty-two. Regarding women in the military, I'm completely shocked by this. that you didn't talk about the most important thing. Here he's talking to some Rabbanim. He's talking to Askanim, maybe Rabbanim that are, uh, that were involved in, that were involved in, uh, in this project. Uh, I'm surprised you haven't brought up the biggest problem. You haven't mentioned the fact that this isn't just a problem

12:47 Speaker 1 for the women. Men are not allowed to be in the military if women are in the military. There's-- You're causing problems for the men too. So it's not just that we need to make sure that women don't join the military. Also, once women join the military, it becomes also for men to be in the military. So the entire thing is a problem. There's more details in this letter than what I want to get into right now, but if you're reading on the screen, you can probably see why. Ask me later, and I'll tell you what he means by that sentence we're skipping over. Um, not because it's a bad sentence to read, just because it would take me twenty minutes to explain it, and I just don't have it. Uh, Igris Kodesh, v-volume twelve, page thirty-three says, when it comes to enlisting women or, uh, women getting drafted, when it comes to women who are particularly hector, here he means non-religious women, . So you would think that as, uh, as I think some of us know, uh, especially if you were here, uh, before we started the recording when we were talking about it, uh, Mandy Friedman filled us in a little bit. There is a law that exempts-- that in Israel that exempts religious women from military service, but the Rebbe doesn't think that's good enough. The Rebbe says, as a matter of fact, non-religious women are a bigger problem in the military than religious women. Religious because the biggest issue that we

13:47 Speaker 1 have here, we have an issue of possibly them carrying weapons. Now, the biggest issue is an issue of tznius, that there's a lack of tznius and, um, a certain impropriety when young men and women are together. A religious woman might be able to withstand temptation and bring a certain kedusha to her camp. She's not allowed to do it, but at least there's a, there's a, there's a chance that she will, uh, that she will keep the camp holy. Uh, this is a much smaller chance with women who are not religious. So the Rebbe says, all the more so, non-religious women should really be exempt from the draft. That's an even bigger issue to have women who are, uh, who are somewhat promiscuous in the military. We have one entry here on Sherut Leumi, which is an alternate national service that, uh, that some women do and that some men do too as well, I think. I, I don't know. But in any case, Sherut Leumi is an alternate to the military service. Um, and, uh, there's one letter that seems to cover some of this. This letter is, I'm sorry, from Igris, volume eight, page one thirty. It's our last letter in this little series. regarding everything we talked about, going with everything we talked about, it's a good time to have an effect on Rav Yitzhak Isaac HaLevi Herzog, that he should put out with a psaktin borur the bitter Sherut Leumi to get rid of Sherut Leumi. So that does not seem to

14:52 Speaker 1 be in favor of national service. This is no worse than speaking to her from across the gate. That also is a bag I really don't wanna open, but just very quickly, uh, if s-- if we know that a guy is going to die, if he can't sleep with somebody he's not allowed to sleep with, the Halakhah is that we let him die. We can't, uh, we can't have him, uh, we can't, we can't sacrifice the purity of a, of a, uh, of a Jewish woman in order to cure a guy who's sick. Uh, let's say that he doesn't need to have relations with her. Let's say that he just wants to talk to her, that if he just talks to this, th-this girl, and they don't-- let's say he doesn't even have to see her. He's on the other side of the wall. He is sick and dying, and the doctor tells us the only cure is for him to speak, uh, from across a wall to a certain girl who he's not supposed to be with. Uh, we say still let him die because even in that case, we're not willing to sacrifice even the, even the notion of the purity and tznius of a Jewish girl, even to save a life. So the Rebbe wants people to come up with a psaktin borur that even for things that are, in theory, permissible, we're not talking about women going to war with men. We're talking about women working in an office or engaging in

15:51 Speaker 1 national service or national acts of chesed as a sort of, uh, as a sort of auxiliary to the military. The Rebbe says, "I don't see the difference between that and saying that, uh, that uh, that, that you wanna talk to a woman from across the wall." We don't match with these sorts of things. And when it comes to a-- when it comes to the tznius of Jewish girls, we have no, uh, no viturum. We don't give in at all. It's called I knew I got it from somewhere. You know, in some corners says the Rebbe, they consider this, uh, which means that it is similar to, uh, to actually, uh, to joining the military and even Sherut, Sherut Leumi to, uh, to violating one-- to violating the prohibition against Gilyarayas, against, uh, forbidden relationships in the Torah. And this is something that would be yareg v'ya'var, that a girl would have to die rather than do. And he goes on to discuss that a little bit. We're not gonna read the rest of that letter. There were a, s-couple of really interesting letters that didn't make the cut for some reason, and I also wanna show you a, uh, so let's just keep on moving. I know we're already short on time, but this is too good to skip. Um, this letter is Vav Tav kuf Samech Gimel. The year is Tav Shin Yud Tes, and this was written to Mar Eliezer Steinman, and there's a paragraph down here I wanna show you. the Rebbe

16:56 Speaker 1 says, "I wanna explain what I'm talking about." And here he is not talking about drafting women in the military, but he's gonna get to it. I'm not worried about individual problems, individual phenomena. Um, I think that's separate swimming pools, yeah? Maybe. Giyus haNashim, the enlistment of women, Yeah, it is, it is, it is, it is swimming pools. Okay, sw-swimming pools. I have no idea. I have no idea what some of these things are. Um, must be something, something in the . I guess selling- Could it be-- Could it-- No, could it be , like the concept of prohibition against, uh, pigs? Yeah, maybe pigs. Yeah, yeah, there we go. Yeah. Yeah, that's almost certainly that. Yeah. That's it. That's it. That-- I remember the Rebbe talking about this. Yes, the question of whether they can sell, um, uh, pig products in Yerushalayim, . So I'm not talking about individual problems, separate swimming pools, enlisting women in the military, selling pigs in Yerushalayim. Because I think all of these things are really part of a bigger problem, which is a war against religion itself. So the Rebbe puts Giyus haNashim, the enlistment of women and the, the draft of women into the Israeli army, as one of the things that he considers a of that is considered a, uh, a war against religion itself. Then the Rebbe says, . It's possible that some of those pushing for this just don't like individual religious people, or maybe they hate a particular religious sect, um, and they may,

18:16 Speaker 1 may as individuals, but not as religious people. But but at the end of the day, the Rebbe says, at the end of the day, there's no . I see this as one of the things that is a war on religion itself, which I think gives us an idea of how serious the Rebbe takes Giyus haNashim, because in addition to telling us over several letters that it's and that's a real problem in Torah, the Rebbe sees this as a social and a political problem that the, that the initiative to enlist women in the military is really just a war against religion itself. Not even religious people, religion itself. There's a from the Rebbe that I didn't wanna pull out of a book, so instead I pulled it off a page of his which is why it looks funny on your screen. Uh, the Rebbe mentions a wild story. Uh, this is the-- This is in a in... I just wanna get it right. It's in . It's, uh, they, they since then have printed that so you can actually get it, but it wasn't on my . Anyway, the Rebbe says, "A certain Rav turned to me and asked if he could sign a certain document, and, uh, I asked, 'Well, what's on the document? I can't just tell you if you can sign it or not. What's on it?' And he answered me that this is a document that's an announcement from Rabbanim that, uh, wanna support a or they want to support a public

19:17 Speaker 1 service announcement of Rabbis of elder rabbis that are forbidding women to join the military." So this Rav asked the Rebbe, "Can I sign a document along with other rabbis saying that women are not allowed in the military?" I said back to him, This is what the elder Rabbanim think. What's the question whether or not to sign? The Rabbanim think that they shouldn't, uh, the women shouldn't be in the military, obviously sign it. "This guy said back to me," says the Rebbe, "They're gonna fire me if I do that. I'm gonna get fired from my job." That's what he said back to me. The Rebbe says, "I thought he was exaggerating." "But later on, I found out that they actually fired him." The Rebbe says, "This is, this is unbelievable." Can you believe that people fired a Rav from his job because he signed a paper that they didn't agree with? This isn't even the only time this happened. This is like murder. It's like murdering Rabbanim. And also their family members. You're leaving them without . So the Rebbe tells a story of someone who signed a document that was in support of women not joining the military and lost a job over it. And, uh, the Rebbe says uh, to give you an idea of the severity. This is a and, uh, there is a note. This is-- I found this in the, in a I forget what volume, but there's a volume of where they have an addition on Giyus haBanot. And there,

20:31 Speaker 1 there is apparently a with Rabbi Yoslovsky, and, uh, it is not word for word. So you can't really, really be in the words, but they did print his memory of it. It said, and this is, uh, these are from memory. We're not taking responsibility at all for the specific words, but this was an interesting question. They asked the Rebbe, um, "You're very against women in the military. Can we do on women in the military? Can we do with them?" Uh, because on one hand, we wanna help everybody, even if they're doing something that we don't agree with. On the other hand, are we putting a are we putting a, a stamp of approval on women in the military if we're doing with them? And the Rebbe's answer in and a couple others who asked him this question, regarding women, um, doing with female soldiers, every single time they do this, they need to ask the again. That is, every time they have a new idea, they need to go to a Rav and say, "Can I run a Purim party for this group of female soldiers?" There isn't gonna be a blanket . Every time they wanna do a it's gonna need to be asked specifically. And even this council should be done somewhat privately. And it would be ideal if you did not make it public that this came from us. So really, the Rebbe does not want to link Chabad with female soldiers, lest people think that this is something that's okay. If

21:46 Speaker 1 you end up having to speak to a Rabbanim from Yerushalayim like the make sure that when you speak to them, that it doesn't lead to any sort of for Giyus haBanot. We wanna make sure that our support for the women soldiers who need religious aid is not going to be translated or misunderstood as support for the idea and lead to a that will end up allowing women to join the military, which is something, of course, the Rebbe is very against. So this-- I found this very surprising. Now, the truth is, like we said, this is . This is someone's memory of a . We don't even know if it's right. But if it's right, and it does have a pretty reliable source of Yoslovsky saying it, th-this is a, um, bit of a bombshell. I would not have guessed that, uh, the Rebbe's opposition to women joining the military would translate into an opposition to Chabad doing activities with them. But the Rebbe does seem to be concerned about this. This regards to this regards this regards any of the normal things that we do with women as part of our the Rebbe is concerned about doing it with the soldiers and wants the s- wants the be asked afresh every time to Rabbanim who are aware of the situation at hand. There's one more thing I wanna show you. With that, we're gonna conclude. And the reason why I'm showing you this, this is also not a terribly reliable, uh, piece of information. This

22:53 Speaker 1 is an interview that the Rebbe gave a journalist. And, um, in his they take it as though it's word for word the Rebbe says, "I don't know how you can do that." I, I, I think people trust journalist quotes more than maybe they should. I've, I've been known to clean a quote or two in my day, so I can't be completely sure that, uh, can't be completely sure this is exactly what the Rebbe said. But, uh, the reason why I'm showing you this, uh, is because there is definitely an idea out there That, uh, and the Rebbe mentions this when it comes to Israeli soldiers normally who are not frum, that, uh, people want to, people want to trash, uh, non-- people wanna trash non-frum soldiers because they're not frum. And you always get people like the Rebbe, and really in Chabad we're very good about this, saying, "This is not the time. It's a time for unity. I don't want you to look at the soldiers and think about their averas. Uh, it's a time to recognize these people are standing on the front lines defending our lives. Now is not the time to pick at them." Uh, this does not seem to be a courtesy that we extend to female soldiers. Um, this is what the quote from the newspaper says about the Rebbe. The Rebbe says that-- the Rebbe apparently said to this newspaper reporter that when it came to Mivtza Sinai, when it came to the, uh, the, the, the, the,

23:50 Speaker 1 uh, the Sinai mission, there were all sorts of miracles. Despite the fact that there were incredible miracles, we cannot look away from a, from a disadvantage, from a negative thing that had-- that, that we saw in this mission. And that is that there were women who were fighting alongside men. This is something that when it comes to a religious perspective and a perspective, Torah prohibition, this put everybody in the entire military in danger. I think the reason why the Rebbe is willing to say this, even though, uh, normally we have a rule that when we're looking at people doing something positive, we don't, we don't nitpick them, is because, uh, the Rebbe says this is a danger for everybody. It's like watching a bunch of soldiers do something that you know could have got them killed. The Rebbe's looking at this, looking at male and female soldiers together. He holds that this puts them in a and so the Rebbe's saying, "I watched this mission, and there were incredible miracles, but they put themselves in horrible danger by having men and women fighting next to each other." This is an incredibly serious thing. You have to keep your camp holy. The military needs to have a particularly special kind of holiness. a irli-- a non-yet, not yet religious person who enters the military, even in times of peace, needs to take on extra kedusha. As the Torah explains, that God Himself is walking through your camp, and He's going to bring your enemies into your

25:06 Speaker 1 hands. And if there is not the condition of you keeping your camp holy, and the Rebbe means by this making women are not in the military, then there is no guarantee that God will bring your enemies into your hands. The entire success of the military, the Rebbe says, depends on not having women in it. Uh, on that note, I think that's it for now. I definitely wanna hear what some of you have to say 'cause I know some people know a lot more about the situation on the ground than I do. So if anybody who knows, uh, who has particular knowledge of the, uh, of the Israeli army and of women in the military would like to add something, that'd be-- we'd be very grateful. But that's it for now. Thanks.

25:43 Speaker 2 I think it's gonna become a very prevalent issue after some of the reports that would happen on Simchat Torah. I don't know if people in America are aware, but there was a whole story that came out about this, uh, all-female tank unit that was very heavily involved in the fighting and did very, very good work. And so the question is being very, very asked now. And, and in general, the Rabbonim who are involved in these type of shailas in Israel in general are not exactly from the Haredi world, as you would say, right? Because in general, like you said, the, the law is very straightforward. If you're from the religious world, you can sign a paper and go home. But the, the questions really come up more in the, the Tzilimi world, and there, there's kinda, like I said earlier, a big, big, big machloket that's going on now in general about the, about the topic.

26:26 Speaker 1 To me, to me, what's surprising, to me what's surprising is the sh- the, the Sherut Leumi part because in the Sherut Leumi, there's, there's very, very, um, there's some very, very benign office type of activities and office type of work that could be very, very conducive to Haredi women, uh, number one. Number two is were there at the time that Rebbe was writing these letters, these all-Haredi units? Because they have, for example, all-Haredi male units that are like, let's say, half the, like, these hesder units, um, I think Mendy knows a lot more about this, like, that are half yeshiva, half combat. They're completely separate. There, there's, there's mik-- there's a mikvah wherever they go. I mean, they're very, very, like, focused on making sure that they have the right type of environment. I just don't know how, how... Maybe that's within the last thirty years they created those, those types of units, and maybe they weren't around at the time. Because to say that, that if you're a male who's in the military, and there's some unsneazik, a woman in the military as well, or promiscuous, or whatever you wanna call them, um, y- is, is somehow gonna endanger a Haredi person in a Haredi unit. It's very difficult to know that. Um, my only guess is that when you look at the Sherut Leumi letter, uh, when he talks-- when he-- when the Rebbe references this idea of speaking to a woman from the other side of a gate, um, it, I mean,

27:40 Speaker 1 I'm, I'm being midak in, like, one line here, so this is shaky territory. But it looks like the Rebbe's willing to take this a lot further than just are they in a unit together fighting together, that if there's even something that smells of a lack of tznius, you've, you've, uh, you've put everybody in danger. Do you know, Mendy, do you know what Chabad Rabbonim are saying, whether they've changed because of the different, uh, Sherut Leumis?

27:58 Speaker 2 In general, Chabad Rabbonim are against it in general, but there, there, there's a few other sociological aspects that go into it. But in general-

28:04 Speaker 1 That Sherut Leumi also, or is that just, uh, is that just, uh, army service?

28:07 Speaker 2 Including, including-- Army service is miklal a non-starter, and then Sherut Leumi is also, uh, more of like, you said, a case-by-case basis almost. But a lot of it also goes into, um, um, what it feels like here, especially the, the more like, uh, the Tzilimi Rabbonim like Moredechai Haliaw and these types, is more about that, that what you said earlier about this, this, this issue of eighteen-year-old men and women together that leads to this kind of potential for issues and less about the, the other, you know, mechalas mitzvot vehulah. There, there's obviously an issue of it, but it's not, you know, it's a common non-starter that, that women should obviously not be in a, in a combat role, for example. But, uh, support roles, et cetera, that's also a question that comes up a lot.