האם נכון להאמין ברבי?

00:00 This is Yigras. Today, we're looking at a letter from Chaf Zayin Cheshvan from the year Taf Shin Lamed Daled, exactly fifty years ago, give or take. The letter is Yud Tav Tav Kuf Tzadik Ches, and it is a heavy letter. It's a heavy letter. Uh, it's about miscarriages. And the Rebbe is explicit that the person in this particular letter, in this particular case, had made a mistake in Tarfus Mishpacha. And as we'll see, when this person pushes back and says, "I'm sure I made no mistake," the Rebbe goes, "No, I'm sure you did." So this part of the letter, the top part of the letter, which is Negia de miscarriages, and explains to a woman who had suffered a miscarriage that she had done something in Tarfus Mishpacha, certainly, that had caused it, and that she needed to fix it before it happens again. It is super important to note that that is one of these letters and part of one of these letters that, uh, that is not a Herod the Rebbe. Uh, this, this does not mean that every woman who has a miscarriage has made a mistake in Tarfus Mishpacha at all. As a matter of fact, as the Rebbe notes in this very letter, and we're going to read it inside, several big tzadikim have had miscarriages, several big tzadikim were born after miscarriages. It's not always that. But in this case, it absolutely was. So we're gonna read that with an understanding that this is not a universal message, and

01:01 we're gonna look at the bottom, uh, for what I think is a much more universal message that we're going to develop as a shihta from the Rebbe, a complicated shihta of the Rebbe in the Shir itself. Uh, the spoiler for the end is that we're going to get down to the discussion of whether it's allowed, whether it's encouraged to have bitachon in the Rebbe, as opposed to bitachon in Hashem. And we're going to see the Rebbe address this from a couple different angles, and we're going to bring in Reb Mendel Futerfas, who had a big fabrangen, reconciled the apparent, the apparent differences in the Rebbe's Torah regarding how much or if any bitachon a chassid can have in a Rebbe, how much trust one can have in a Rebbe. So first of all, we're gonna do the miscarriage stuff. So the Rebbe writes, and there's a bunch of information below the line. Says here that this is written on the margin of a letter that the Rebbe had received that same year about a woman who had, Rachmanu Lotzan, had a miscarriage. And after she'd received a letter from the Rebbe and his berakhah saying that if she kept Tarfus Mishpacha, she wouldn't have to worry about another miscarriage, she got the letter, apparently, she was more careful in Tarfus Mishpacha, and she had another miscarriage. So she wrote to the Rebbe again and said, "It, it happened again. What should I do?" And the Rebbe didn't answer. So she wrote to the Rebbe a

01:59 third time and said, "Why haven't you answered me?" And this is the letter that he wrote back in response. So the Rebbe's answer. First of all, "Him nikifel zeh eida pam." I'm repeating myself again. I'm gonna tell you the same thing I told you last time. Two, "Ki shlamdu eida pam kol hakratom im yadas, im yedei yadas dinim." When you, you and your husband will learn all of the details of Tarfus Mishpacha with a man or a woman who knows all of the laws, "Yi sader etz lam mashale nispar," it will become clear to you what you did not keep. The Rebbe is emphatic here that they didn't keep something and that it will be clear to them if they learn the dinim properly with somebody who really knows the dinim. "Im adayin le idim zeh," if you don't already know it, which is the Rebbe implying that perhaps she already does know and has not been willing to admit that she knows. So the "im adayin le idim zeh," if you really don't know, then learn the din again with somebody and they will point it out. But there's an implication here that perhaps the Rebbe thinks she does know. "Azker al sinah eida pam," I'm gonna mention you by the Fi Li Ke Rebbe's, uh, ohel one more time. He doesn't say one more time, he says another time. Four, "Chatam. Uh, kol harashom lekamah nechel ek mizer." The reasons-- 'cause she wrote to the Rebbe saying, "Why does this keep happening to

02:54 me?" The Rebbe says, "First of all," I mean, for the reasons, it's anything on this list or "chelek mizer" or some of the things on the following list. These are the reasons why you are having miscarriages. And once again, not Herod the Rebbe, and this was to her. Number one, "Prat vishli nishpu Tarfus Mishpacha kanal." This is close to a Herod the Rebbe. I'm gonna show you a few other letters very briefly wherein frequently after miscarriages, the Rebbe told people they had to be more careful with Tarfus Mishpacha. So this is, uh, this is close to Herod the Rebbe. He says, uh, "Be careful of some details that were not kept in Tarfus Mishpacha." He gives her a couple other reasons why she might be having trouble having a baby. Reason number two, uh, or a baby that lives. "Kam vekam benei Yisrael beteicham gam gedolei Yisrael neldu dach lach leavlah." Many, many of the Jewish people, and among them, gedolei Yisrael, only gave birth after-- or, or were born, excuse me, were born only after their parents had already had a miscarriage. So another reason is just this is something that happens. A lot of Jews have miscarriages, a lot of gedolim were born after miscarriages. It might just be part of life, and in addition to that, it might be what heralds the birth of a big-- of a, of a, of a gadol Yisrael. Reason number three, "Echa meazivog ishneha," maybe one member of the, of the, uh, husband-wife team or both

03:56 of them, "Amad bateikh lach lish nisavra," said firmly after she had already become pregnant that they either were mesayer dash meaz Tarfus Mishpacha or al ibur vekulo, that they regretted keeping Tarfus Mishpacha or that they regretted having the child. Saying, not just saying it in passing, the Rebbe says saying bateikh, saying bateikh in a strong way that they regret the pregnancy, Chas v'Shalom, they regret having kept Tarfus Mishpacha, Chas v'Shalom. These are things that can cause a miscarriage. Reason number four, and this is the one that I wanna focus on for the majority of the Shir. Azug, um, azug shekecha Shem hu makara berakhah venesan-- venes nevukulu ubitkhu rak bebene adam be basar vedam kama bi. Look at that. Says they are-- they have forgotten that Hashem. The couple has forgotten that Hashem is the source of all berakhahs, and he's the one who gives birth, and they've believed only in humans who are basar vedam, flesh and blood, and then he puts a kama and says, "Bi, me." They believed in me. So the Rebbe says, "One of the reasons why you're having a problem with miscarriages is you've stopped believing in Hashem, that he's the one who's going to help you, and you've started believing in mortals, specifically in me. And belief in me is one of the reasons why you're having trouble." Now, I don't wanna spend too much time on other letters about miscarriages, but I will point out, I brought you two of them here in the source sheet that

05:06 I gave you. In both of them, he mentions similar in yonim. He mentions that they have to be more careful about Tarfus Mishpacha, which is something that I think comes to a Herod the Rebbe, comes close to a Herod the Rebbe, that if a person's having any regular problem in anything that has to do with fertility, the Rebbe's go-to message is be more careful with Tarfus Mishpacha. Another thing the Rebbe mentions in this letter, this is Gimel Tav Tav Lamed Alef from the year Taf Shin Tes Zayin. We're just gonna look at this paragraph. He says, uh, "Ki neitzad chai levarim hayai im lo hayai beshiddukh shelo impigiah bekavod ben avot Yisrael." There's other advice that we see from the Rebbe frequently when marriages or anything relating to a marriage is not going well. The Rebbe says you should check if maybe in your shidduch you ended up offending somebody else. "Kim nogeim hu zeh sheyehi bedibur la-- bedibur," uh, I think that's lush and hepekh berakhah, Chas v'Shalom. Or maybe if you, uh, you, uh, you say curses about people, the opposite of berakhah, Chas v'Shalom, you may be more careful about how you talk. "Vehe keim einam nagilum daber al atzmo ahlates." Maybe they aren't people who keep their ahlates every time. There's another thing the Rebbe says might be an issue, that they make ahlates, then they don't keep them, so they should try to make ahlates and keep them. The Rebbe gives only three pieces of advice here that we don't

06:01 see in a lot of other letters, specifically to combat the problem of miscarriage. But then he adds, "You should also see a doctor," which is very important. And then we have some of the classic advice down here to check tefillin, check mezuzahs, and to, uh, make sure she gives tzedakah before halakhat sneres and that he should give tzedakah before davening. And this is the Rebbe's advice to another couple who had been suffering miscarriages. Quick review of that, 'cause again, I'm flying through these so we can get to the stuff about the bitachon in a Rebbe. He says here, um, "Make sure you didn't offend anybody in your shidduch. Make sure that you're not cursing pe-- cursing people. Make sure that you are keeping all of your ahlates. Make sure you see a doctor, and make sure you check your mezuzahs and tefillin, and that she lights Shabbos candles and gives, uh, and gives tzedakah before her Shabbos candles, and you give tzedakah before davening." We have another letter somewhat similar to this. It's Daled Tav Tav Chaf Daled from the year Taf Shin Yud Zayin. Again, somebody writes to the Rebbe about miscarriages, and again, the Rebbe gives similar answers If I can find the one paragraph I wanted to show you. We're not gonna look for too long. You can look in that letter, it's in your package. There is more of the similar advice in this letter. Also, he mentions Taris Mishbacha. So we have a couple general rules for how the Rebbe,

07:02 um, faces the problem of miscarriage. He tells them to focus on the mitzvahs that are shayaach to miscarriage, to focus on the mitzvahs or the possible averas that are shayaach to the shidduch and their marriage. He also gives some specific advice about how they, uh, about lack of bittachon. And in our particular letter about regretting, excuse me, about regretting the birth, regretting the pregnancy, regretting Taris Mishbacha. These are all things that can sometimes contribute to a miscarriage. Of course, the part that I'm most interested in is this one line at the very bottom, that this zug, this, uh, this couple, shachu, they've forgotten Sheshem Hamakor Habrachah, that Hashem is the source of all blessings. B'nees Nan, he's the one who gives the blessings, v'chulu. Uvittchu racu b'nei Adam bas vedam bi. My first thought when I read this was, what exactly is the Rebbe's problem with us believing in him? Uh, why do I ask that question? 'Cause of the classic sicha that was, uh, that was from the second day of Shavuot of Tav Shin. That is the incorrect date. Is from Tav Shin Yud. I'm just editing the page. From Tav Shin Yud, where the Rebbe defines the Rebbe as being Atzmus, Atzmus Hamachus, as being the essence of God in a physical body. You would think that that would be something worth believing in. I have the quote here, it's a classic. The Rebbe says, "Rebbe, hu zeh shemekushim Atzmus Hamachus ein se baruch." A Rebbe is someone who is connected to

08:17 Atzmus Hamachus ein se baruch, the eternal God of Melah, and therefore automatically, "Lanu lanege'ela lehis'kashru seled reb," blah, blah, blah. So for us, all that matters is connecting to the Rebbe. We don't worry about connecting to God because the Rebbe's connected to God completely, so we can connect to the Rebbe. We don't have to worry about connecting to God. "Al yadei mis'kashim anuim Atzmus Hamachus ein se baruch." Al yadei, by way of connecting to the Rebbe, we connect to Atzmus Hamachus ein se baruch. We connect to the highest level of Hashem. As the Rebbe says in other places, a Rebbe is a memutzem, a memutzem mechaber. He's a connector, but he's a connector that connects two things, not one that becomes an, a, a distinguished piece, uh, sort of like a, a melding force between us and ein se baruch. You would think that connecting to the Rebbe, trusting in the Rebbe, believing in the Rebbe is something that works as well as connecting to God directly, at least from that sicha. And the Rebbe himself says this about Rebbeim. Despite the fact that this is the standing assumption, uh, when it, when you come out of that sicha, that it'd be okay to believe in Bas Vedam, and you wouldn't necessarily think, you know, I'm sure people say this all the time, I'm sure I hear this all the time, that they trust that the Rebbe will take care of the problem, they trust the Rebbe will take care of this. This is the

09:11 Rebbe Zacharias. Uh, the Rebbe seems very uncomfortable with this in our letter. Says the problem is that they're trusting in Bas Vedam and not trusting in, in me. They're trusting in me and not trusting in Hashem. In a lot of other places, it looks like that's sort of what it is to be a Hasid. Where you really see this fall into stark contrast is in a very famous sicha from Yud Gimmel Tishrei of Tav Shin Mem Gimel. Is anybody old enough to remember Tav Shin Mem Gimel? It's possible. I don't know. In any event, yeah? W-would you remember the sicha? Were you there at the time? You don't remember it. It's a very long- I was eleven years old. Okay. So, yeah, maybe, so you might, you might remember the scene . There was a sicha from Tav Shin Yud Gimmel Tishrei of Tav Shin Mem Gimel, where the Rebbe complained at length, I mean, at length, at length. It goes on for like ten pages about people looking at him during davening. And the reason why this is a key sicha for our discussion is the Rebbe repeatedly refers to himself as Bas Vedam and repeatedly says, "I want you thinking about God and not about flesh and blood," which sounds a lot like what's going on in our letter. I can't read this whole sicha to you. It'll take us, take us literally an hour, but I pulled out some of the most important sections. The Rebbe says, "Ad ki dekach shehakavana klalis

10:10 dalet nimyata emet." What is the kavana of tefillah dalet nimyata, nimyata emet? You're supposed to know who you're standing in front of. You're supposed to be thinking about Hashem during davening. And this thing is so important. He begeder chiyuv min haTorah. It's begeder, it's at least within the realm of a Torah obligation during davening to at least be thinking about the fact that you're in front of Hashem. Kol shakla v'tari im tefillah hu min haTorah mid, mid, mid Rabanim, chayatzeh shayach rach kedem she'amid l'sful. The entire back and forth about whether tefillah itself, davening, is deoraisa mid Rabanim, that only applies before you start davening. Himi yesh chiyuv min haTorah l'sful bizman zadavka, which means that there's a halakhic discussion whether I have a chiyuv to daven Shacharit. So before I start davening, we can have a discussion whether I had to in the first place. Aval, kasham navan l'sful HaKadosh Baruch Hu. Once I've decided to daven, ve'imeh barakh tah Hashem, and I say, "Blessed are you, God," peshitah yesh n'chiyuv min haTorah lachshaveh dizu HaKadosh Baruch Hu. It's very interesting, says the Rebbe. Says we can have a ma-- we can have a debate over whether tefillah is deoraisa. But once you choose to daven, we know for sure that it is Torah-mandated that you only daven to Hashem, so that when you say barakh tah Hashem, you're thinking about God and nobody else. That's a Torah obligation. Movin, shezehu inyan ikari b'klalis din ha tefillah. Says the Rebbe, it's understood that this

11:12 is an essential part of tefillah. Klalimer, od lifnei shelemdim kuntus, kuntres tefillah, kuntres ha'avoda. Long before you've learned kuntres ha tefillah from the Rebbe, the Sha'ar HaAvoda, all of these deep piec-pieces of chasidus on how to daven. Shan yohnes chasidus, afilu lifnei shelemde es ha'meimar ha'mishnah, ein hamid l'sful boteach kevod rash. Even before you learn the expression in the Mishnah that you should only daven with sincerity or with, uh, with a kevod rash, with a seriousness. Yudim kair shebeshas tefillah tzrichin lachshev ezus HaKadosh Baruch Hu. The first thing you need to know is that when you daven, you have to think only about Hashem. V'haparesh kasha m'chanich yeled katan leomer, "Me'adanu l'fanecha." And so when we teach a small child to say, "Me'adanu l'fanecha," ma'aspirim laish beshas ma'asa al lachshev ezus HaKadosh Baruch Hu. We teach him, he has to think about Hashem. Me'kevin shehu pendah l'Kadosh Baruch Hu v'lo me'adanu l'fanecha. The first thing we teach kids is that they daven to Hashem. V'lach ko zeh nihiyeh kan seder. Now, the Rebbe, I cut out a big section in the middle. The Rebbe says, after all this introduction about the importance of thinking about Hashem during davening, nihiyeh kan seder. There has become a seder here. Shekash mis'asni yachad l'tefillah, when we all get together to daven, kinim makam l'sful boteach sidur v'lachshev ezus HaKadosh Baruch Hu, rather than davening in the siddur and thinking about Hashem, nevadnu l'stakal baBas Vedam. They wanna look at Bas Vedam. Ve'efin shel achshonas lo hefsek. And they

12:18 do it in a stubborn way without stopping. So the Rebbe's referring to the phenomenon in Seven Seventy. People would gather there to daven, and instead of looking in their siddurs and davening, they would look at the Rebbe the entire time. He says, "This is, uh, how did this happen? This is the seder now in our area." Ve'zeh hem z Hu, more than, more than that. Anakehu hu hafchliyes shpitz chasidus. This has become the defining factor of what it is to be a real Hasid. Klalimer, kol mi shehu Hasid galuy es, so the bigger the Hasid is, asal lo hafsik, afilu l'rega echad l'stakal baBas Vedam meshul chol zaman tefillah. The Rebbe says it's gotten to the point where if you wanna show you're a real Hasid, you're not allowed to stop looking at, at Bas Vedam, the Rebbe's saying himself, for the entire time of tefillah. Yesh din beshuulchan aruch, says the Rebbe. V'nigala kaminiyanim sheyeefshar lachshev bez nachshav es b'vas achas. There's a din in Shulchan Aruch, says the Rebbe, that it is impossible to think two thoughts at once. He then has a little digression here where he says that the Rebbe Maharash was able to think two thoughts at once, but this was a pele by him because normal people cannot. He continues, v'nigala leninu, when it comes to us, kash atzvitch lachshev ezus HaKadosh Baruch Hu, and we have to think about Hashem. Yeefshar ba'ez hashar lachshev, it is t'nui siyata d'Shmaya, ma'nisas ma'alis shel plei. It's impossible when you're thinking

13:14 about Hashem to also be thinking about whether some individual at the front of the room has moved his right or left hand, which is what they were doing with the Rebbe, watching every small motion he do. V'at kasha ein zeh hishak lasatan. This not just looking, that you're not just looking at the Rebbe, va'avar ba'ama, just passingly looking at him while you're like, you know, passing around the room, you see him for a second. Ki ve'efin di yatak hamashchat b'chezek. This is them putting their minds, investing their minds in the Rebbe. He zun zun lashon Tanakh uses to describe das. Oh, lashon Tanakh perech gimel. Nice. Sh'lo yafse shum, klat v'shum t'nua. So they won't miss any detail or any movement. So the Rebbe here says- And that he is very, he's very upset by the fact that people are staring at Basar Vedam during davening, staring at a person, 'cause he says that first of all, the most important part of davening is thinking about Hashem. Whether or not it's darais to, to daven, it's for sure darais should only think about Hashem during davening. And here-- and we know for sure you can't think about two things at once. Since you can't think about two things at once, if you're thinking about me, you're not thinking about Hashem, and this is an enormous problem, so you gotta stop looking at me. So this is a very harsh sicha. Again, it goes on for like ten pages, and it again, it sounds like our

14:10 letter, "Stop trusting in me, start trusting in Hashem," but it doesn't sound at all like this idea that is central to our understanding of what a Rebbe is in Chabad, I think very specifically in Chabad, that a Rebbe represents Atzmus Olam, that he's Mekushet Atzmus Olam, Ein Sof Baruch Hu, and therefore, we can connect to a Rebbe and not have to worry so much about Atzmus Olam, Ein Sof Baruch Hu. How do you, how do you reconcile that with the Rebbe saying, "Don't look at me on Basar Vedam," the Rebbe saying, "Don't trust in me on Basar Vedam"? It doesn't sound like that principle in connecting to the Rebbe. Reb Mendel Futerfas, immediately after this farbrengen, uh, m- after Yud Gimmel Tishrei of Mem Gimmel, he gathered everybody together, and he gave a very long farbrengen, and it's printed only-- the, the bottom line and not the farbrengen is printed in the book of Reb Mendel. I don't know if anybody ever published notes from this farbrengen, but the bottom line is in the farbrengen, and I think it's incredibly instructive. This is an excerpt from the book of Reb Mendel. So, "La'acher, haRebbe diva b'kev rav," after the Rebbe spoke with great pain in the Sefer Yud Gimmel Tishrei Taf Shin Mem Gimmel, "al tach," about the fact, "shemistaklim alav ve'shas tfilot makam listakak be'seder," that people are looking at him during davening instead of in a seder, "ve'l'chaven peresh hamiyus," and they're not focusing on what the words mean, "mistaklim al basar vedam,"

15:12 that they're staring at basar vedam, "yizvad Reb Mendel kol halaila." Reb Mendel gave a farbrengen that went the entire night, and the Rebbe's-- and Reb Mendel's bottom line, "Hu diva eida sach isar nagdol." What is the real problem here? "Shemistaklim al haRebbe k'basar vedam," that they're looking at the Rebbe as though he is basar vedam. So Rebb- I've, I've read somewhere else where somebody expanded upon this a little bit. I'll tell you exactly what Reb Mendel means, and I'll show you how I think you could be midayak that in the ma-- in the sicha itself. The Rebbe is not complaining according to Reb Mendel that we're staring at him. The Rebbe's complaining that we see him as some sort of holy man, and if he's some sort of holy man, there is somebody standing between us and God, and we're not thinking about God, we're thinking about the holy guy at the front of the room. But if we adopt this perspective, that is that a Rebbe is not basar vedam, that I'm not looking at flesh and blood, I'm not looking at a physical person, I'm not even looking-- and I'm, I'm not, I'm not really noticing how his hands are moving or what his beard looks like. I'm not focusing on the person. I'm focusing on the fact that this is something that is Mekusher to Atzmus Olam, Ein Sof Baruch Hu, and if I am connected to that, I could be connected too. The Rebbe is not complaining about that, says Reb

16:09 Mendel. The Men-- the Rebbe is complaining about the fact that people stare at him like he's a person. This would definitely work with our letter, 'cause in our letter, he says they've forgotten that Hashem is the maker of the berakhos, and they're trusting basar vedam, they're trusting me. What if they're hanoakh? Right? If the Rebbe himself represents Hashem, then trusting the Rebbe is trusting Hashem. But if you see the Rebbe as being some person who you can trust instead of Hashem, that's one of the reasons why you're having trouble. You can actually see this in the Rebbe sicha a little bit. I think I know what Reb Mendel was-- How could I know? I, I suspect this is what Reb Mendel was midayak in, is this section right here, where the Rebbe says, "You can't have two thoughts in your head at once. You can't be thinking of Hashem and also thinking about me." And the Rebbe's complaining about the fact that they're trying to think about him and also think about Hashem, and it's just not going to work. Says Reb Mendel, "Don't make the, don't make the differentiation. Don't think about Hashem and think about the Rebbe. Think about one thing exactly and connect them completely. Because if you see the Rebbe as separate from Hashem, then you've created an idol, and if you see the Rebbe as one with Hashem, then you haven't done that at all." This goes back on the Rebbe's, uh, explanation in a couple places about how we

17:08 go to the oil and how we, uh, how we ride a pan and how we connect to a Rebbe in general without it being a mamotza, because it is also for us to do shituf, it's also for us to daven to a Rebbe, God forbid, it's also for us to daven to a person, it's also for us to ask bakashas, to write letters to a person, how exactly-- instead of God, how exactly are we doing it? And the Rebbe's recurring answer was that if you see the Rebbe as a person, if you see the Rebbe as a, as a tzadik who's separate from Hashem and is going to help you connect to Hashem, then this is a form of avodah zarah, it's a form of shituf. But if you see the entire Jewish people as one body, and you're just part of that same body, and the Rebbe's the head and you're the foot, and the foot says to the head, "Hey, tell-- Scream out because I stubbed my toe," then that's not you making a mamotza, that's a mamotza mechaber. That's, uh, that's, that's the Rebbe's part of you, the Rebbe's part of Hashem, you're part of Hashem, you're part of the Rebbe. If you see everything as completely one, then relaying things up the ladder isn't a hashkafic problem or a halakhic problem. But if you don't see things that way, which apparently is the way most people don't see things that way, they see the Rebbe as an individual, as a mortal.

18:00 We had this discussion in shul recently. We ta-- I remember, remember, Surly, a couple, maybe, uh, six months ago, uh, we were talking about the fact that there was, uh, there was somebody saying that, uh, that we have to have a little rachmanus on the Rebbe and at least sometimes see him as a human. I would argue that if you do that, you better not look at him during davening . Because if you're seeing the Rebbe as a human, uh, and if you're seeing the Rebbe-- If you're seeing the Rebbe as basar vedam, the Rebbe's herah is explicit, "Do not look at me during davening, I'm basar vedam. Don't trust in me, I'm basar vedam. Don't relate to me that way, I'm basar vedam." But if you don't see the Rebbe as basar vedam, Reb Mendel says it's open season. You absolutely can relate to the Rebbe on these levels, l'cher in a way of bitachon, certainly in a way of even looking at during davening, if you don't see the Rebbe, in fact, as basar vedam. Uh, this is only one approach. I'm very interested in hearing if people have other approaches. There certainly is, Reb Mendel aside, there certainly is what appears to be a stira in the Rebbe's explanation of a Rebbe, because the Rebbe is very clear that he doesn't want people looking at basar vedam, he doesn't want people trusting in basar vedam, and also very clear in other places that a Rebbe is not basar vedam. So, uh, so

18:58 I'm interested in hearing if anybody has alternate explanations beyond what Reb Mendel says, but at least from one very famous mashpia, we do have an explanation for this possible stira. Okay, I'm done.