נישואי תערובת

00:00 Speaker 1 We can start, right? We have a letter in front of us from Tuv Shin Lamed Gimel. The date is not here. It could be of any time in Tuv Shin Lamed Gimel. So it's possible it was from exactly fifty years ago. It's also possible it was from fifty years ago, plus or minus a couple of months, but it's from Tuv Shin Lamed Gimel, and this letter the Rebbe writes to parents of a daughter, Rachmana Liba, their daughter is going to or is planning to marry a non-Jew. So we're gonna talk about intermarriage today and the Rebbe's unique approach to intermarriage. I promised to, uh-- I promised in our, in our little discussion before this year, I promised to, uh, explain what I mean when I, when I sometimes refer to the teddy bear Rebbe. Um, i think that there is a, uh... This is my private opinion. I think that there is a tendency, especially in Chabad houses, but also outside of Chabad houses, also among Anash, to, uh, to turn the Rebbe into a Rebbe who is a teddy bear. The Rebbe is, of course, always deeply understanding of our problems. The Rebbe is the modern one. You know, there's those crazies in Eretz Yisrael who put a pashkeville on the wall. The Rebbe is this moderate, this considerate. The Rebbe never says anything directly hostile. If he has something that is harsh to say, he packages it in a, in a garb of Chesed. I think people think that's the Rebbe, and sometimes

01:05 Speaker 1 I guess that is the Rebbe. Sometimes the Rebbe is very uniquely kind in a place where other people would not be. But there are certain things about which the Rebbe is quite strong, and intermarriage is one of them. Uh, we're gonna see language here where he directly compares intermarriage to helping Hitler, uh, and those are the words he uses repeatedly in letters and in, uh, in, in private discussions about people who are interested in marrying someone from another religion. So we're about to go into a very intense letter, um, and, uh, I wanna know what order to do it in. Let's see. Let's not do the letter first. Let's look at some other things first. I'm gonna show you the supplement before we get into the letter. That was the preview of the letter. Here, let's take a look at what other Jewish leaders have had to say about intermarriage. Let's look at Ezra. Let's go all the way back to Ezra. We're going back to a, a Rebbe many, many Rebbes ago, Ezra himself. This is in Perek nine. You think intermarriage is a new problem? By the way, intermarriage is a new problem. You know why it's a new problem? Because until about two hundred years ago, they got killed for marrying us. Until recently, the Goyim didn't allow the Goyim to marry the Jews. So intermarriage didn't really become a problem until l-- until, uh, the world became a little more liberal. But anyway, it was a problem in, uh, in ancient

02:06 Speaker 1 Israel. So Ezra chapter nine writes this, It's on your screen. The leaders came to me and they told me, The Jewish people, the Israelim, the Kohanim, the Leviim, they had not separated from the other nations. They intermarried. There was intermarriage problem in Eretz Yisrael when Ezra returned from Babel to try to rebuild Eretz Yisrael. He discovered that everybody there or a lot of people there had intermarried. Then let's see what Ezra's approach is. Ezra's approach, when I heard this thing, I tore my clothes, and also my robe. I tore out the hairs of my head and also of my beard. and I sat down in a stunned silence. I gathered all those who feared God around me, and we sat there in stunned silence until until the evening. Evening, I finally stood up from my fast. and from my torn clothes and my robe and I bowed down on my legs. and I spread out my hands to God, my God. And I said I'm embarrassed to raise my face to you. Our sins have gone up all the way. God loved the Shamayim, and our guilt has gone up to the heavens. So not a small thing. Ezra was pretty upset. He sat Shiva for a day, and then he prayed to God saying that, uh, that, that he couldn't imagine a greater sin affecting the heavens. We have in Rambam, Mesoret Biah, that's a couple of Rebbes after Ezra and still a couple of Rebbes before ours. Rambam, Mesoret Biah twelve, seven and

03:44 Speaker 1 eight, he says that this is worse than all of the Araios, that when a Jew marries a non-Jew, specifically when a Jew and a non-Jew make a child together, they have done an Aveira worse than any of the Araios. And that's a tough pill to swallow. The Araios are pretty bad. And as a matter of fact, the Araios are a Chi of Kares, and as you may know, there is no specific Lav in the Torah to having relations with a non-Jew. There's a Lav in the Torah to marrying one, Chasnus, but not necessarily making a child together. Nonetheless, the Rambam says it's worse. The court doesn't kill you for it. You still shouldn't be lenient about it. There is a loss when it comes to intermarriage, when it comes to having children with non-Jews, that there is not for any of the other Araios. A person, uh, I don't know, sleeps with their sister, that's really bad. Their kid ends up a Mamzer. Or with a married woman, that kid becomes a Mamzer. But nonetheless, this child is that person's son and is considered a Jew at least. It's true, he's a Mamzer. But when it comes to a child that is born from a non-Jewish woman, that's not his son at all. So the Rambam's saying, "Look, uh, Araios are bad because they make Mamzerim, but at least a Mamzer's a Jew, and at least a Mamzer's yours." You know, if a, if a, if a man has relations with a non-Jewish woman, this

05:01 Speaker 1 creates a Goy who's not even his child. This causes people furthermore to connect to the Jew-- to the non-Jews. This causes us to have further relationships with non-Jews when we-- when, when some of us are intermarried, we all become close to the nations that God tried to separate us from. So this is all around a disaster. Um, just background there. Um, I wanna do the letter now. So with that background, let's look at the Rebbe's approach to intermarriage. I-- The reason why I think this is such a stark contrast to other approaches is that generally speaking, when you talk to-- Go, go to your local Rav and ask them what to do if somebody's about to intermarry. I think most Rabbonim, even very big Rabbonim, have sort of a, uh, a nuanced approach to it, what to discuss, what to say, how to convince them. There's a whole book, Why Marry Jewish? They bring the guy who wrote it to, uh, to like every, every event that's run by Chabad on campus. He's fantastic, but he has all these statistical reasons how to explain it to them in, in careful language why they shouldn't intermarry. This is what the Rebbe says. I wanna tell you, these p- these people, these are, these are parents writing to the Rebbe that their daughter is about to marry a Goy. So he says, intermarriage the letters on your screen. It is an actual disaster for both of them, for the goy and for the Jew. And if they

06:15 Speaker 1 even care about each other a little bit, not just some fleeting desire, which would leave anyway. So if they really care about each other in a real way, first of all, the Rebbe's saying in parenthesis if they don't really care about each other, I guess we don't have much of a problem 'cause this will, this will not last. But if they really care about each other, they will not allow the other one to live a life of disaster all of their lives. The Rebbe says that if one of them wanted to commit suicide, the other one would not allow it, so they cannot allow each other to intermarry. So the Rebbe's saying that intermarriage is the same thing. He's comparing it very directly to suicide and saying that the same way that we don't as a society allow people to commit suicide, even if they very badly want to, and even if they say that they are of sound mind and wish to, we as a society have a general understanding that we stop people from killing themselves. Certainly if we care about somebody, we don't let them kill themselves. The Rebbe says that if this couple cares about each other, they should not allow each other to kill themselves. These are strong words. Two, as if you thought it couldn't get any stronger, look at number two. This is a direct aid to Hitler, may his name be wiped out. Ma-- Uh, that is direct aid to the goals of Hitler, may his name

07:25 Speaker 1 be erased. His-- What he was trying to do was to destroy the Jewish people, and this directly aids him. It's like a cage of silk. It's like a ca-- It's like captivity of silk. So sure, it's not the gas chambers. It's a gas chamber made of silk, the Rebbe's saying. I'm putting words in his mouth, but only slightly. It's a kind of destruction that seems nice, but it's destruction. It's aiding Hitler directly. This is what the Rebbe's writing to somebody interested in intermarrying, or at least to the parents. Based on all of this, my opinion should be clear. That it is the responsibility of them as parents and furthermore, as any Jew, not just as parents, but as any Jew who's aware of an intermarriage about to happen, to do everything that they possibly can to not allow their daughter to destroy her life, and also to damage the entire Jewish people. We have to prevent her from ruining her life and her from ruining the entire Jewish people. The Rebbe then has a, has a suggestion here that I don't know what to do with, but it sure is interesting. Maybe she should visit Eretz Yisrael. Maybe that would have an effect. The one thing the Rebbe says will not have an effect, there's no need for a private conversation or personal conversation with me, the Rebbe says. I've said everything that I need to say in my letter. So we have here, explain to them that they're destroying their lives. Explain to them

08:43 Speaker 1 that it's akin to suicide, and that if you care about someone, you don't let someone you love commit suicide. And explain to them that what they're doing is like what Hitler tried to do. And, uh, and then do everything possible to stop the marriage. That's what I mean when I say that the teddy bear Rebbe just doesn't stand up to scrutiny sometimes. This is-- maybe this is probably the harshest letter I've ever read. I really think it might be the harshest letter that I've ever seen from the Rebbe. The Rebbe did not just do this once. Lest you think this was a unique situation, there is a recording, and, uh, according to this, I found this in his but it says here that the recording is recorded and has been translated into English, but it also is-- we, we have like an audio recording of this. This is probably very precise, this, uh, this, this group that there was a, uh, there was a Jew from Brazil who wasn't so careful about Torah and mitzvahs, but he came along on a trip, uh, arranged by a to meet the Rebbe. When he got there, he's a very quiet guy. He, uh, he's, uh, he's not too interested in Yiddish standing near the back. They didn't expect him to talk much. But when he walked into he blurts out to the Rebbe and says that he has a goyish girlfriend and he plans on marrying her. And the Rebbe responds to him. If you look at

09:41 Speaker 1 the Rebbe's response to this it is very similar to what he writes in this letter, giving us the idea that this is not necessarily a letter that was just to this girl or this parent who needed to hear this, but probably the Rebbe Shlita. The Rebbe says, when it comes to when it comes to physical health and physicality, you can't change something. Such things are inherited. Certain, uh, certain things are inherited from both sides. This is accepted from scientists and it is also accepted that religion is one of those things that can affect someone's life. uh, these kind of, uh... I don't know what this word is, but it means intermarriage. What is this word? Oh, the, the statistics.

10:24 Speaker 2 Statistica. Statistics.

10:26 Speaker 1 I got it. Yeah, I got it. Statistica. statistically, the Rebbe says these sorts of weddings, these are ma-- this is a source of all sorts of problems in a marriage, conflict that is constant conflict, and is an actual danger to both of them. Look there again with the suicide. If one felt that the other was about to kill themselves, it is accepted the world over that you do whatever you can to prevent it. Even if this person says he wants to commit suicide, "I wanna do it. I've accepted upon myself the, the, the, uh, the costs," or whatever. should say the normal things nonetheless, everybody tries to stop them, even if they say, "I know what I'm doing." And when it comes to suicide, that is only a momentary disaster. They do it, and they're done. but here what we have is a long-term an that will last for many, many years, a disaster that will continue in intermarriage. So here he says intermarriage is worse than suicide. God should bless that-- you bless you and her should find their proper partner. both of you will be happy when you find your proper partner, her with a goy and you with a Jew. so that you won't have any with her anymore. not now and not later. you should go from strength to strength. And then the Rebbe handed him a dollar and said, "This is to help you break her up. This is to help you this is to help with the breakup. This

11:55 Speaker 1 is to help you to, uh, to, to destroy the connection between you." There is a letter that is from the Friediker Rebbe that has similar themes to it and a whole bunch of somewhat tricky Yiddish in the middle. But, uh, what the Rebbe says here that-- the Friediker Rebbe says here that I wanna point out, and please do read this on your own time, uh, we have at the very bottom in these last two lines, line begins with that aleph and goes over here . He tells the-- The basically says, "Tell them that it's gonna destroy their lives, and explain to a couple that's about to intermarry that this isn't going to work out, and that even if they think it's gonna work out for now, it's just gonna cause destruction to both of them." But I wonder if that's a misspelling. But anyway, if these things don't work and you're unable to convince them, this is talking to the parents- Huh? Yeah, 'cause I think, I think the way they spelled it is like bumblebees.

12:44 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

12:45 Speaker 1 'Cause I think it should be without the verb. I don't know. If these things are not-- The things that we described have not, uh, have no effect and you're unable as parents to stop the child from marrying a goy, you have to tell your son who's about to intermarry, you're not gonna see him anymore. You're gonna cut him off. God will have mercy on him. He'll ultimately regret what he did. Eventually, he's going to regret what he's done. And eventually, he will end up marrying a Jewish girl. But here, the tells parents that, uh, that if they're unable to convince their kids to, uh, to not marry a Jew, they-- To, to... I'm sorry, to not marry a goy, the suggests cutting them off. Now, I don't know if he's suggesting doing it or just saying you'll do it, right? The here is that at least tell him that, and if you tell him that, he might change. But, uh, that's quite extreme. Um, I have that over here. Uh, oh, right. So I just have a note down here that apparently the in many other letters says that if you really can't stop them, you have to encourage the goy to convert. And also, is, is Mendel here? Is Mendel Sandhaus here today? Your grandfather's getting an honorable mention. Apparently, Rabbi Leib Groner wrote that many times the rebbe encouraged non-Jewish people should be before the marriage, or if it was not done before, to do so as soon as possible after the marriage

13:55 Speaker 1 if you really can't convince them. So I don't know if cutting them off is the only approach. But, uh, we have here a, a, a that seems too harsh to work, right? I, I think that, um, this is all very good, this is all very academic. But if we have to sit down and talk to somebody, and I had to on a few occasions in my work, uh, in, in-- on when I was on had to talk to people who were interested in marrying or dating very seriously a non-Jew. Um, I think we all hesitate to go down this road, to take the rebbe's approach. The rebbe's approach being to explain to them that it's akin to suicide and we stop suicides and to tell them that they're helping Hitler. Um, but that's not because it doesn't work. That's because we're too scared to use the rebbe Um, I do wanna, uh-- I have two stories down here that I wrote-- that I put as notes for myself to tell-- to myself to tell you about. I think we have time for both. So I'll tell you both stories. One of them, do you know the story of Schwartz in Brazil? This is one that makes the circle-- This makes the circuit around It is a fantastic story. Schwartz of Brazil, he ran a school in Brazil. He tells this story himself, says that he had a boy in his class, and the parents of the boy came to him and said that they-- that

14:55 Speaker 1 this boy's older sister, who was never in his school because she was, uh, she graduated before he showed up to start the Jewish school. But this older sister of this boy in his school, she was going to marry a non-Jew. She'd already decided. They'd made-- They, they, they'd set the date. Things were done, and they couldn't stop her. Could he maybe talk to her because they know that he's the local rabbi? So he went to her house and talked to her. She was very respectful and said, "Yeah, I'll hear you out, but, uh, but you didn't change my mind." He gave her all of the reasons, and they didn't work. He was desperate. He was not a Hasid. He was a Hasid. But he knew that when you're stuck in situations like this, the only one you can call is the rebbe. So he called the rebbe, and he got Rabbi Hodakov on the phone. He asked-- He asks the rebbe through Rabbi Hodakov, uh, what to do. Rabbi Hodakov says back, "Tell him that, uh, that there is a Jew in Brooklyn that can't sleep at night because he's worried about her. Tell her that. Tell this girl that, that there's a Jew in Brooklyn worried at night, can't sleep because of her, uh, because of what she's about to do." And, uh, I guess we would all have taken the hint, right? But he did not. he said to Rabbi Hodakov, "Who's the Jew? Who's the Jew in Brooklyn who's worried?" And the

15:52 Speaker 1 rebbe's voice came on the line, and the rebbe said his own name. The rebbe said his own name on the line that it's him. So, uh, he went to her door, knocked on her door again, said, "I'm sorry, just one more thing. I need to tell you that there is a Jew in Brooklyn-- a Jew in Brooklyn who's worried about you and, uh, can't sleep because he's worried you're about to do this thing." And she said, "Can you show me a picture of him?" Now, I, I... You can tell what, what era I live in. I was like-- My first thought was that he took out his phone and showed a picture. This is too-- He says that-- he says he had to run back to his house and dig around through books trying to find a picture of the rebbe somewhere. Like, did he have a picture somewhere? He had to work hard. So he, he turned his whole house upside down. That same night, he finds a picture of the rebbe somewhere and runs it back to the house to show it to her. So he shows her the picture, and she says, "That's the guy. That's the man." She says that every single night, she has had a dream where he's come to her and tried to convince her not to marry a goy and, uh, and that she knows he can't sleep because he's in her dreams every night, and that if that is indeed the person who has spoken to

16:44 Speaker 1 her, she's not gonna do it, and she called off the marriage. So, uh, the rebbe came to her in a dream to stop her. This is forceful. This is not, you know, uh, you know, "Come to the Chabad house and we'll see." This is, "Don't do it." Um, the story that I did wanna mention from my own experience is that I thought I ended my on like my fourth day there. I was very new to campus and, um, and I was also... You know, new are on fire in a way that I wish old were. Maybe it's better that they're not, but that's for better or for worse. I was on fire at the time. I was familiar with the rebbe's about intermarriage and, uh, a boy at the table asked me what I thought about intermarriage 'cause he wanted to trap me. I figured that, uh, we're all Jews at this table. What do I know? I had like fifty people at the table. And he asked me what, what, what is the Jewish view on intermarriage? And I told him that it's absolutely destructive, it's like suicide, and that, uh, it's helping Hitler. And he stood up and walked out with a fair contingent of students, walked out of the room. It turned out later he said he would never come back again. Um, and he told many students he'd never come back again. Turned out he had been very ser-- He was a senior. He'd for four years been very seriously dating

17:42 Speaker 1 a non-Jewish girl. They were planning on getting married, and if I said that he was like Hitler, he wasn't coming back. How dare I call him Hitler? Now, of course, I didn't call him Hitler. That was not what I did at all, but that was the way he understood it. And I remember thinking that this like, maybe I'm not cut out for this at all. I remember thinking this was, uh, whatever disaster intermarriage is, my disaster might be greater at this point. Um- A couple of years later, uh, I, I stayed in touch with him to some degree, but he was always angry at me after that. He never really came back after that. Um, and although we stayed in touch, I didn't-- About a year ago, I discovered that he now lives, he now lives in the general area of Upstate New York. He's, he's, he's not far from us. And, uh, and he's very seriously dating and planning on marrying a Jewish girl. He broke up with a non-Jewish girl, and he's, uh, and he's very likely to end up marrying this Jewish girl he's now been seeing for years. Now, I'm not saying it's because what I said worked. What I'm saying is what I said did not work. It didn't turn him off to... In, in, in, in a way-- I mean, he's very involved in Judaism right now. He's dating a Jewish girl. I do think that if we, with a real heart, do use the Rebbe's approach to explain

18:40 Speaker 1 to people that this is a line we do not cross, the most serious thing that can happen, and we talk about it that way, I, I'm not sure that won't work. And, uh, I don't think the Rebbe would have in letters and in yechiduses and in many places told us over and over again how serious this is and how to speak about it in that way, and told parents to speak about it in that way if he didn't want that to be the way that we speak about it. So, um, just academic? No, I don't think so. I, I, I think practical. I think completely practical. I think halacha l'maaseh, this is how we talk about intermarriage. Um, as far as what to do when nobody listens to us, I think then we have to rely on the, uh, on the shitas that appear below to try to, try to figure out a conversion. Obviously, somehow in pedakionim darkei shalom. A postscript I wanna add that I do not understand, that if you ask any Chabad Hasid what you're supposed to do in the case of an intermarriage, they will all tell you to very forcefully try to stop it. And even to you-- They will frequently tell you about the Friediker Rebbe's letter where it says to cut them off if they won't, but to stay in close contact and always love them. And I don't understand how you cut someone off and tell them they're Hitler and stay in close contact and always

19:39 Speaker 1 love them. I, I, I don't understand the shita, but this is the one you'll get if you, if you ask most Chabad rabbonim, and good luck. Uh, as for what we should do practically, I guess prevention is the, uh, prevention is the best cure. In any case, uh, yes, we have a-- I have a raised hand. Nobody ever raises their hand. But in any case, I'm done, so please talk.

19:57 Speaker 4 I think, um, correct me if I'm wrong, Rabbi Hirschberg, Hirschberg in, uh, Montreal had a child that... I think a daughter that married a non-Jew. And he, uh, they reached out to the Rebbe about it, and the Rebbe told the family members to keep contact with the, uh, girl. He sat shiva with them. Um, and then later on when she broke up with the, the goy, um, she came back to the family and the Rebbe said not to tell him anything. He-- I guess he was really older. I don't know. I'm not sure. Maybe Shruli, uh, knows the story better, but, uh, there's that story.

20:43 Speaker 2 I don't know the details of the story. I, I remember hearing about it, but I don't know the details of the story. Um, I, I had some... Two, two, two questions. I mean, one comment and, and one question. Uh, comment would be that, um, I think the Rebbe's shita definitely, if presented the right way, would, would work. Um, just meaning to say that it's-- it could be that it doesn't work when it's blurted out at a Shabbos table, you know , you know, like Hitler. Um, but in a conversation where somebody can really one-on-one have a discussion with somebody and discuss with them the, the, the values of being a Yid and the importance of the heritage as mentioned before, you know, in one of the-- in, in the, in the sicha from the Rebbe, the heritage that's inherited in a person's DNA, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, all that stuff I think is, is very important. And if it's done in the right way, um, you know, I think it would, I think it would, uh, I think, I think it could work, number one. Number two is, do we find that the instructions were different from the Rebbe when it was a Jewish girl to marry a goyish man? Is it the same severity in the Rebbe's letters?

21:47 Speaker 1 The reason why I think it is, is because our letter is about a girl marrying a Jewish man, and the yechidus is about a Jewish boy marrying a goyish girl, and we find the language is almost identical. Both of them call it suicide. The Hitler thing-

22:02 Speaker 4 The kids are coming, but they cannot stay.

22:04 Speaker 1 But yeah, I mean, the-

22:05 Speaker 2 I-

22:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, the, the, the... If, if you think the yechidus and the letter are the same, then I guess the answer is yes. If you think they're different, then no.

22:12 Speaker 2 Right. My, my-- The reason why I think it would be different would be because, you know, when you talk about destroying the continuity of the Jewish generations, you don't destroy the continuity of Jewish generations when it's a Jewish woman marrying a goyish man. You still have the, the hiskarvus that you have and the Rambam mentions over there about being close to the, close to, um, you know, close to the, um, close to the goyim and intermingling and destroying Klal Yisrael in a certain way by bringing that yakhas together, but you're not destroying Klal Yisrael because every child that's born from that union is a Jew.

22:43 Speaker 1 This letter, though, from Tef Shin Lamed Gimel where he, where he, uh, where he calls, calls it helping Hitler and, uh, and, um, and what? Uh, and suicide, that's to a, that's to a girl about to marry a Jewish-- a non-Jewish boy.

22:53 Speaker 2 It is? Doesn't, doesn't answer-

22:55 Speaker 4 But also, ki yatzar et bincha me-achari-

22:57 Speaker 1 Shruli, practically, maybe you're right.

22:58 Speaker 4 Ki yatzar et bincha, when you have a Jewish child born to, to a goyish father, then the goyish father may encourage... Meaning, you-- It's actually in a sense worse because if a Jewish child who's now being turned away from Yiddishkeit by his goyish father, in a sense, yes, a goyish child is cut off, but it's worse to have actually a Jewish child who's being raised by a goyish father with goyish values and being taught to become a goy. That's in a sense worse.

23:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you have the opportunity-- But you always have the opportunity for teshuva. You have the opportunity-

23:25 Speaker 4 You have the opportunity, but you can't really count on that.

23:28 Speaker 1 You certainly can.

23:28 Speaker 2 But again, but you're not-- It's not a de-

23:30 Speaker 4 There's a mother there also that can fight too

23:31 Speaker 2 ... it's a distraction and not a destruction because you can't destroy a neshamah, right? You can't destroy the inherent Jewishness of a person-

23:39 Speaker 4 Shruli

23:39 Speaker 2 ... if they're Jewish.

23:41 Speaker 4 Shruli. Shruli.

23:45 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:45 Speaker 4 I think it depends on the stage that you're at. Like, let's say if, if you're dealing with a situation where they're still gonna get married, you have to do every, every possibility to try to convince them out of it. But once it happens, then Chazal are right. That's, that's the point, that the, the child is no Jewish.

24:03 Speaker 2 But the, the, the, the letter that the Rebbe writes about, um, uh, it's not your son-

24:07 Speaker 4 Shidduchim and nisuyin

24:08 Speaker 2 ... is written by the father, right?

24:12 Speaker 4 Which one?

24:14 Speaker 2 One where, where it's, "It's not your son." It's, it's not here, right? It's the other one, right?

24:18 Speaker 1 That's, that's, that's the, um, that's... What's it called again? That's the Rambam, right?

24:23 Speaker 2 Oh, that was Rambam?

24:25 Speaker 1 Right. So definitely Rambam was only talking about a, a boy marrying a non-Jewish girl because he's talking about it not being your son, not being a goy. That would sort of tell him the flag.

24:33 Speaker 2 I believe, I believe in the Sefer of Shidduchim and Nisuyin that came out, uh, in the mems or maybe late mems. There's a Se-Sefer, a, a whole blue Sefer on Shidduchim and Nisuyin. I believe over there, there is guidance from the Rebbe written over there. I'm not saying that this other stuff isn't there, but when it gets to intermarriage or maybe the Rebbe's over there talking about after they've already been married, I'm not a hundred percent sure, or once they've already decided there's nothing to do about it, about the being mekarev the goy and working towards, uh, towards gir, halacha.

25:02 Speaker 1 Absolutely. So Rabbi Groner said this a bunch of times, that the Rebbe-- This was heard as Rebbe said that many times. Once it's already happened or once it's, uh, inevitable that it'll happen and we really can't stop them, we have to try to get a gir kehalacha. Um, and, uh, in a way that we don't normally push. You know, normally push gear. Here, the idea is to bring them close and really try to convince them to convert. Yeah.

25:22 Speaker 4 Um, side note. Isn't that a problem at Meche-- that Ezra ripped out his hair after hearing the bad news?

25:30 Speaker 1 I wondered that. It uses the lotion that the Torah forbids, right? That, that's why-

25:33 Speaker 4 I mean, that's all-- that's not a mess, but sim-- but it's a similar concept. Like, he was crying because it's like a destruction of Jewish people, like mess.

25:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know. That's a, that's a great question.

25:43 Speaker 2 Perez, you cannot mix topics. I'm sorry.

25:45 Speaker 4 This was on this shi-share.

25:49 Speaker 2 This share? Sorry, that's a different topic.

25:54 Speaker 4 You decide.

25:55 Speaker 2 I, I, I had a-- I ha-- I have a glush-- a glush worker who was, who was dating a Jewish girl at some point, and I was very torn. I, you know, I didn't think he would listen to me 'cause he w-- you know, he was, he, he was the guy kind of thing. I just hoped very much that they would, um, they would break up. And apparently they did, and he's actually married now to a non-Jew and having a baby soon, which is cool.

26:21 Speaker 4 Mazel tov.

26:22 Speaker 2 Unfortunately, I have a cousin and a nephew who not only married a non-Jewish girl, but have kids as well. Tragic, really.

26:37 Speaker 1 And practically, in the case of-- if-- unless it's too personal, I'm just curious, in the case of your, your family members that you had this experience with, um, was there any, any of the tactics used to, to try to dissuade them, or was the Shidduch?

26:52 Speaker 2 All, all, all I know is, is that, you know, like in general, they worked with-- meaning not, not related to, to the intermarriage 'cause it's, um-- specifically, but with regards to their general approach to them, they worked with that guy. What's his name? Um, you know, there's a guy who's well, well-known, you know, tries to help families, you know, sort of navigate that, uh-

27:13 Speaker 4 Oman?

27:13 Speaker 2 What?

27:14 Speaker 4 Rabbi Oman?

27:16 Speaker 2 No. Oman?

27:16 Speaker 4 In Sydney.

27:17 Speaker 2 No, no.

27:18 Speaker 4 He's big into this.

27:19 Speaker 2 No, there, there's a guy here. He's a, he's not a Rabbi guy.

27:22 Speaker 1 Fishoff.

27:22 Speaker 2 He's an organization-- What?

27:24 Speaker 1 Fishoff. Avi Fishoff.

27:25 Speaker 2 I think so, yeah. So they, they worked with him, and they, they went sort of his, his whole approach of, of, you know, maintaining that connection, all that kind of stuff throughout. Um, and I think these kids are very much still a, a relationship, and I think they, they keep that up. I, I, I don't know. I, I'm not-- I wasn't privy to what efforts were made, you know, during, during that, uh, you know.

27:46 Speaker 4 One more comment. The Frieda kind of mentions about cutting off and the Rebbe did not. Is it possible that maybe that tactic would have been more effective in the times of the Frieda Rebbe when people had a bigger connection with their parents and cutting off was a bigger deal, so it was actually more of a viable threat? Whereas today's day is cutting off is actually more detrimental and less likely to be successful.

28:08 Speaker 1 Totally possible. And as a matter of fact, I did, I didn't find the Rebbe saying it anywhere. Um-

28:12 Speaker 4 So I think maybe-- I don't think it's a different approach. I think, I think the facts are different, meaning I think that the family unit was a lot different in times of Frieda Rebbe, and being cut off from your father was a lot big, big of a deal in society than today. So maybe then it was an actual tactic to use, and now it's just a, uh, count. Now it's just wiping your hands clean without actually being any effective. It looks like, you know, difference from hitting your children back in the day and now.

28:38 Speaker 2 Yeah. Kind of that's-- that, that's the case now. Most Rabbonim tell you to keep in touch, but-

28:44 Speaker 4 That's what I'm saying. I, I, I'm trying to put perspective on the Frieda Rebbe's words and not that the Frieda Rebbe was, like, out of touch, but I think maybe it was tactic more effective for those days.

28:51 Speaker 5 I think the circumstances play a huge role. If you tell a Frum kid he's gonna be like Hitler, he'll just curse you out and say, "I don't care." You tell a kid that's coming from a Frum background and may be a little more sensitive, that may help. But I think the circumstances play a huge role here.

29:09 Speaker 4 Right.

29:10 Speaker 5 If you have somebody that, that, that doesn't know better, that's, that's, that's dating a non-Jew, that, that is different than a Frum kid that goes off and decides he wants to marry a Goy. I think it's two totally different things.

29:29 Speaker 2 Can I