שזר והרבי

00:00 Speaker 1 This is our Igrish year, and, um, today we're talking about something that I've been pushing off for quite a while. I've been, I've been looking at Shazar letters for months now and not using them and kind of compiling them and waiting until the moment that felt right to do, to do the Shazar story. We're not gonna have time to do the full story of the President of Israel, Shazar, and his relationship with the Rebbe. But, uh, today felt like a good enough day for it. Today is the day that, uh, over in Eretz Yisrael they're celebrating Yom Ha'atzmaut. So I'd, uh, I'd hoped to drag in some of our, uh, some of our Israeli regulars, but I hear they're too busy with their barbecues. So for now, we're just going to, uh, we're gonna talk about it. This is a sort of a, a connection with the Jews over there, right? We're gonna talk about Israeli politics a little bit, specifically Shazar. So I do wanna give you a little background, uh, I think before we go into our letters about who Shazar was and who he is. I don't think everybody when you say Shazar immediately knows who he was. He was born in eighteen eighty-nine in Mir, which was in White Russia. His parents were Chabad Hasidim going way back, and he's named for the Alter Rebbe. His name is, his name was, uh, Schneur Zalman Shazar. So he's named for the Alter Rebbe. He received Semikhah. I don't know if a lot

00:57 Speaker 1 of people know that. He had Semikhah, and a lot of letters the Rebbe refers to him has things like-- I think in one of them, the Rebbe calls him a Rebbe Hasid. Uh, the Rebbe refers to him under, under the language that he usually reserves for a Ba'al Shem Tov, perhaps because he actually did have Semikhah. He received Semikhah in nineteen oh five. When he was younger, he became very involved in Poalei Zion. Poalei Zion was this movement of Marxist, Zionist, Jewish workers in Europe, spread throughout the entire Europe, and a lot of them went toward founding the modern state. He visited Eretz Yisrael in nineteen eleven, but then he went back to Russia to serve in the army there, which I didn't know either. And then after that, he went back to Eretz Yisrael in nineteen twenty-four, and he started living in Tel Aviv. He was the editor-in-chief of an Israeli newspaper for a little while, and then he was elected to the first Knesset in nineteen forty-nine as a Mapai party member. That's the Democratic Socialist. So it kinda fits his, uh, Poalei Zion Marxist, Zionist roots. He was a minister of education under Ben-Gurion, and he was elected president of Israel in nineteen sixty-three. He served two terms from nineteen sixty-three to nineteen seventy-three, and he died only a year later. He died in nineteen seventy-four. So the last eleven years of his life, ten years of his life, he spent as the president of Israel, and he died only a year

01:59 Speaker 1 after that. Uh, he was deeply involved in Lubavitch throughout his life and deeply involved, or at least somewhat involved with three Rebbeim. He met the Rebbe Rashab. Did you know that? He met the Rebbe Rashab. He met the Rebbe Rashab in nineteen ten at a nesiva. There was a nesiva Serabanim. I believe he was there with the Zionist group. But according to a book-- And by the way, I should mention there is a, there is a book now, and it's been out a little while called, uh, Nesiv HaChassid, and it's a long book about everything that Shazar did that had to do with his relationship with Chabad. It's a thick book. I was flipping through it. It's on Eretz HaChachma. So I was flipping through and reading it. I got a lot of this from there. He met the Rebbe Rashab in nineteen ten at a nesiva. I believe he was there for part of the Zionist cause, but he was taking notes, and according to him, the Rebbe Rashab treated him like one of the Hasidim because he was clearly also representing Hasidic interests. He wasn't working against us, he was working with us. So he was treated like one of the Hasidim while he was there, and he took notes about everything the Rebbe Rashab said. He has a transcript of the Rebbe Rashab's speeches at this nesiva. In nineteen seventy-one, he gave our Rebbe that transcript. So he gave the Rebbe the transcript of what the Rebbe Rashab said at the nesiva.

02:56 Speaker 1 He, throughout the nasius, was constantly giving the Rebbe little gifts from, uh, old transcripts, uh, handwritten documents from the Alter Rebbe, from the Rebbe Rashab. He gave him a couple. So he, uh, he frequently gave the Rebbe these artifacts. This is one of the artifacts he gave to the Rebbe, was a transcript of the discussion he heard from the Rebbe Rashab at the nesiva. In nineteen twenty-seven, he flew to Berlin, uh, to intervene and try to get the president of Germany to, uh, to get the Frieda Kereba out of prison when the death sentence was passed. So he was also involved in freeing the Frieda Kereba from prison. I'm not sure how important in the end the president of Germany was. I'm not sure how important this trip was, but he did fly to Berlin specifically to do that. So he was involved in trying to free the Frieda Kereba from prison. In nineteen forty-eight, and this is where things get pretty exciting, in nineteen forty-eight, he went to the UN to, uh, um, to go for the vote for, for the founding of the state of Israel, um, which I guess the anniversary of is right now. So he's at the UN and, um, they're waiting to see how the votes are gonna come in, and it looks like they don't necessarily have a majority, and everybody's very nervous. And he says that the day of the vote, the physic-- The, the day of the vote, the phone rings in his hotel room, and

03:54 Speaker 1 it's the Rashag. The Rashag's on the phone. Really, you're paying attention? The Rashag's on the phone. The Rashag's on the phone and tells him that the Frieda Kereba wants to know how the vote's going for the-- how the vote's going. Uh-huh. So the Frieda Kereba wants to know how the vote's going, which I, I-- I mean, this is just shocking to me, this entire story. I knew nothing about this. It's pr-printed in the book, and as a matter of fact, the story I'm about to tell you is so controversial that in the book, Nesiv HaChassid, they print seven versions of the story, seven girsas of the story, and all of them more or less say what I'm about to tell you. It's just wild that this happened. So the Frieda Kereba calls him in his hotel room and says, "How's the, how's the vote going?" At least the, the, the Rashag is relaying this from the Frieda Kereba. Uh, he says at the time he didn't know how the vote was going, so he says, "Amarti leRashag yagid bebakasha l'Rebbe ki tzrichim rachamim rabim." That he said back to the Rashag, "Please tell the Frieda Kereba we need rachamim rabim. We need incredible mercy. I'm not sure that we're gonna..." Implying, "I'm not sure we're going to, we're gonna win the vote, that there's going to be a state of Israel." Uh, the Rashag relayed this to the Frieda Kereba, and according to Shazar, the Frieda Kereba told the Rashag to say back to him,

04:54 Speaker 1 "Hashem yisbaruch ya'azer." That's the Russian that comes back, that God should help with the election, that God should help with not the election, the votes, with the UN vote to found the modern state. As you can imagine, this is a controversial statement enough that there are, again, seven versions of exactly what the Frieda Kereba said in this book, but all seven reflect the Frieda Kereba having called him, asked about the progress, and wishing him success in the vote, which is just, I don't think, known at all. Uh, he also told him to please visit the day after the vote. Shazar did indeed visit the day after the vote, and that's where they began talking about establishing Kfar Chabad. So this was also the first conversation about establishing Kfar Chabad, and Shazar was ultimately instrumental in establishing Kfar Chabad at the request of the Frieda Kereba. Shazar actually met the Rebbe, uh-

05:32 Speaker 2 Sorry, to, to visit who where?

05:34 Speaker 1 The-- Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't-- I'm, I'm using too many pronouns. The Frieda Kereba asked Shazar to-- The UN, the UN was in New York. The UN was in America.

05:41 Speaker 2 Oh, so he came as an ambassador.

05:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. He was in, he was in New York for the UN vote, and he asked-- The Frieda Kereba said, "When the vote come-- When the vote's finished, come and see me." So the Shazar went to visit the Frieda Kereba right after the UN voted to found the modern state. Um, and then, uh, and during that meeting, they had a conversation about Kfar Chabad the first, which ultimately led to the founding of Kfar Chabad Uh, he was also there for Yud Tes Kislev. He was there for Yud Tes Kislev that year, the nineteen forty-eight, and he farbrenged with the Frieda Kadesha Yud Tes Kislev, and that's where he met our Rebbe for the first time. So he met our Rebbe in nineteen forty-eight at Yud Tes Kislev. The dates do work. I thought about it a little. The dates work. Okay. Shezar ultimately met the Rebbe in person thirteen times. That's a lot of times, and they sent many letters back and forth. I went through Igress just on-- to check, uh, how many times these, these letters are in most volumes. Looks to me like most years they sent something like ten letters back and forth, which is just an enormous amount of mail for, uh, for any one individual to the Rebbe. These are letters the Rebbe wrote back. I have no i-idea how many he sent the Rebbe, but the Rebbe sent him at least ten letters a year, more or less. Uh, their most famous meeting is one that you often farbrengen

06:41 Speaker 1 about. We've heard about it a lot. My most famous meeting was in nineteen sixty-six. This is shortly after Shezar became president. There was a lot of pressure from the Israeli government for him not to go see the Rebbe. They said it's inappropriate that a president of Israel should go to a Rebbe. The Rebbe should come to him, and he asked the Rebbe, "Would you be willing to change our usual seder and come visit me in my hotel rather than me coming to seven seventy to see you?" And the Rebbe considered it. Uh, according to the Yumanim that are published from that time, there are a bunch of journals from that period, the Rebbe went to the oil, and when he came back from the oil, he called Shezar and said, or had somebody call Shezar and say that he didn't get permission from the Frieda Kadesha to go to him at the hotel, that he didn't have permission. Says, "I..." The, the, the Lashon that he told Shezar, according to Shezar, he's the-- he told Shezar in Russian, "I'm not a Balabas anymore. I can't make these sorts of decisions," that the Frieda Kadesha said, "I can't go to you." So, uh, in light of that, Shezar ultimately came to the Rebbe. It was at eleven thirty PM on Motzei Shabbos. There was a lot of fanfare. The Hasidim stood outside and sang the Napoleon's March. The Rebbe came out, they kissed, they hugged, and there's a Yuman that says that Shezar was so overcome

07:35 Speaker 1 with emotion at this moment that he grabbed the Rebbe's beard and he cried out, "Rebbe, Rebbe," while holding the Rebbe's beard. Um, this is recorded in the journals at the time. I don't think we have any pictures of that. There are pictures of them meeting and hugging, and there's a, there's a lot of close physical contact. At one point during this yechidas, Shezar mentioned a few Rabbonim by name who spoke out against Eretz Yisrael and Medinas Yisrael, and he thanked the Rebbe for never doing so, and the Rebbe said that they too love Eretz Yisrael deep down, they just don't say it very much. Another interesting thing that came up in this yechidas is that according to Shezar, Shezar later on told people about his yechidas, that, uh, that Shezar said that the Rebbe told him that, uh, one of the main reasons that he was unable to visit him in the hotel is that this is the place, this seven-seventy is the place where the Frieda Kadesha danced on some chasera, cried on Tisha B'Av, and where thousands of Yidden received guidance and strength, and you can't bring that to a hotel. Shezar said the Rebbe told him in, in yechidas. So that's Shezar's biography and sort of his relationship with Lubavitch. I picked three letters for us, two of them from our year and one from ten years before our year. Our year was his last year in office. So our year that we're learning this year is exactly fifty years ago, which

08:33 Speaker 1 would have been nineteen seventy-three, his last year in office. And, um, the Rebbe has, uh, two letters to him that are sort of about the end of his term as president. Before we look at those though, I wanted to go back in time to exactly ten years before that, where the Rebbe congratulates him on becoming president. And I think through these three letters, you get a really good idea of sort of the hadracha and also closeness that the Rebbe and Shez-- that the Rebbe shared with Shezar. That in addition to being a... I mean, that-- what do I mean by it? I'm trying to think of how, of how I mean this exactly. I'm looking for the right word. I feel like the Rebbe gives Shezar a lot more hadracha than he gives other people in letters. He almost talks to him like a mashpia, not just like a Rebbe. And I think you'll-- maybe you'll agree, maybe you won't when you see the Lashon, but he sort of, he's providing guidance in a way that is very personal, I think. Okay. So over here, this is Tamuz Chaf Gimel. This is the year that he became president, and this is the letter that the Rebbe wrote to him congratulating him on becoming president. So he writes, It's on, it's on your screen. the, uh, results of the elections have come in for president. to, to your honor The Rebbe says that I'm sending you a congratulations, a heartfelt, uh, congratulations that it should be

09:39 Speaker 1 vesha-- that it should be in a, in a good and proper and successful hour. there should be success in all the specifics. And he says, especially since when it comes to the Jewish people, gashmius and ruchnius are one. Uh, gam gashmius benei Yisrael is their ruchnius, their gashmius is their ruchnius. as a continuation from a letter that I sent earlier this week, assuming that you've received it in this proper time. The Rebbe goes on to say, the Rebbe goes, "It's a mitzvah for us to say mazel tov when you win an election, but the truth is, it's gonna be a lot more work." He says, it's gonna be very hard for you. you're gonna have new responsibilities. nonetheless, which means it's true. Certainly, the Rebbe says you were given all of the strength that you need in order to fulfill all of these responsibilities you'll have as president. certainly you'll also get significant help. the Rebbe gives him a bracha that they should all-- his term should be in good health and with joy and with a goodly heart. along with all the meanings of this in Chassidus. and then from the Alter Rebbe. this was the-- What is that? That's the hundred and fiftieth year since the Alter Rebbe's hilulos was that year. the Rebbe goes on to give more brachas. 'cause that was the time of year. And then there is sort of a, a, uh, a PS. And the Rebbe's PS, I will note, just to make it more exciting, look at

11:22 Speaker 1 the very bottom of his PS, where he apologizes for the PS. That's how you know it's gonna be a good one. Whenever you get an apology at the bottom, you know it's a real zinger. Look at the last line. it's, uh, there's room to say that this was not protocol for me to write this to you. so I wrote it after the signature. and if there is need for it, I'm sorry. So here's what the Rebbe says that he thinks needs to go below the signature that he needs to apologize for. it's inappropriate to talk about people who are already dead. I still feel like I can't hold back from something I've thought a whole lot. that it seems like in the days before your election, you started changing your tune a little bit in your public speeches. um, what is that? What is that abbreviation? Uh, le-- yelech le... I don't know. I think it means he's not alive anymore, though Right What can be Yeah. That's the word I was looking for. Thank you. So what had happened is, I believe, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but I think his predecessor had just died, and what he's saying in his speech is that the-- I mean, the previous president of Israel had died, and he started saying in his speeches close to the elections in order to win more votes and more confidence that he'd be continuing the legacy of his, of his, of his predecessor, that he'd be acting like the

12:37 Speaker 1 previous president. The Rebbe does not like this at all. It is my hope, and I hope that it will happen practically. You won't just use the possibilities that are available to you in your position right now. You'll open them up wider, and you'll increase them. And you'll do this in a pleasing way, but you'll also do this in a pleasant way, but you'll also do it in a harsh way. The Rebbe is saying that don't just keep the office of president what it's been in the past. I expect you to peacefully, but, uh, with, with, uh, with a force, expand the role. Certainly all of your actions will be in the spirit of the Jewish people. Which is in line with what, with, with, with, with the Torah, which we received at our Sinai. And what happened regarding your predecessor, who's not alive anymore, should have no effect on the way you act right now. The sign in Hazal, and I think the Rebbe is knocking his predecessor here with this lashon. It's a lashon from Kulen that has very little to do with the context, is some people want, and they can't. some people can't, and they don't want. but we want somebody who both wants and wants. And you have the will to do this, too. I think what he's saying here is that his predecessor either didn't wanna do things or couldn't do things, but either way, things didn't get done. And he doesn't want him to just follow in the footsteps

13:58 Speaker 1 of his predecessor, but to expand the role and do a lot more with the role of president than whatever was done previously. And as I said, the Rebbe ends this letter by saying, "I know this is in protocol, and it comes after the signature, um, because of that, but if I do need to apologize, I'm sorry." They're somewhat, uh, strong words, but he's giving him direction at what kind of a president he wants him to be. So ten years later, we come to our letter, which is the focus of today, these two letters. Uh, this one is right before the end of his term, right before the end of his second term. He won two terms. It's right before the end of his second term, he writes to Shazar. Now remember, a lot's happened in between. The visit we talked about has happened in between. About ten letters every year have happened in between. They've met several times in between. So a lot's happened over this ten-year period. Now we're looking back at the end of his time as president. And he gives him this long introduction up here. I don't know what half of these mean, but I know that is the most choice of his nation. he's raised up above his people. somebody who seeks out good for his people. somebody who has a generous nature. who is a descendant of great family, which, uh, I believe he's related to the Alter Rebbe, not just from the-- I think he's related to the

14:58 Speaker 1 line somehow. I don't know exactly how. But even if he's not, he's related to great people. He's a descendant of the Bach, actually. I, I found that somewhere lying around. So he certainly has great ancestors. I think that's . What is that? What, what's usually? What's that one? Do you know what that one usually is? Yeah. So that's once again, I said the Rebbe in a couple cases, he does call him Rav. He does have as we talked about earlier. This is the Shazar. And the earlier ones, the earlier ones are Wow. Thank you very much. and what's the last one? Okay. But I put in the chat box earlier that Shazar stands for Shazar Rubashov was his last name. Right. His last name was what? It was something with a Vay. What's his last name? Ruba-Rubashov. Rubashov. Okay. In any event, he writes, and the first part of this we don't really have to read. He tells him to have a good Pesach. I mean, you can read it on your own time, but I don't wanna spend too much time since we're already, we're already probably going over. Okay. We have down here our PS, which is where all the action always happens in Shazar letters. Shazar letters are all about the PSs. He says, "I've received what you sent over and, uh, thank you very much." The Rebbe goes, "In addition to that, however, I am very surprised." It is an upset surprise. Not a good surprise, a bad surprise. The way

16:16 Speaker 1 that you've been acting and the way that you've been speaking, sort of the spirit around you these past few, uh, these past few days, I guess, this-- recently. Recently, the sort of that you've been in. the reason why you've been acting in this way, I think, says the Rebbe, appears, you'll end up-- um, I should translate better. Uh, the, the, the reason appears to be that in these next few weeks, you're going to be ending your term as president. And so you think maybe it's already time for you to look like somebody who's, who's stepping out of office. You're trying to wind down things, close up shop. You're trying to close, uh, close your responsibilities here, and so you're speaking in a way of somebody who's ending their job. The Rebbe says, The Rebbe goes, "First of all, that's not, that's not acceptable at all. It's not right." So I'm going to apologize very much. And certainly, your goal is to work with faith, that your goal is that your job should be done with faith. Therefore, you should understand that every single day you have an obligation to fulfill your mission in this role. just like you did on the first day of your presidency ten years ago. So Rebbe says to him, "I don't want you winding down. Down until the last day you're in office, I expect you to work just as hard and with the same spirit that you did on your first day in office." Along with that, Furthermore, you've

17:37 Speaker 1 been given all every-- you've been given everything you need in order to fulfill your role. You also are getting all sorts of merit for fulfilling your role. So he says to him, "You have all the energy from God that you had on day one. I expect you to do all the things that you were doing on day one, and you'll get all the you were getting on day one. Nothing should be stopping. There's no such thing as winding down just because it's near the end of your term." But it says there's no room at all for the mood that you've been in. I could go on. Certainly this is not, uh-- Certainly you don't need that. I also am worried that I'm gonna end up sounding like a Maggid in Mussar. I don't wanna give Mussar in a letter. So I'm going to end off with the way that they end off, which is fundamental. That we should end, that we should end this time of Galus entirely. And, uh, the yield should be fulfilled And this was sent on Pesach of the year that we're studying now. A couple weeks later, of course, he did actually end his term, and this is in the final days of ER, Teshrin Lamed Gimel, fifty years ago. And we're going to look at what the Rebbe sends him now that he's actually done being president. So the Rebbe wants him to finish out his term with Chayas. Now the presidential term is over. What does the Rebbe

18:45 Speaker 1 want from him? By the way, in the year after this, the Rebbe sends-- they send back and the Rebbe sends him another eight or nine letters in the year after this, and the year after that he's gone. This is one of the final letters that he sends Shazar, and certainly the one immediately after his term of president is over. He writes to him, "President Shneer Zalman." I don't know why that's the intro here. He's not the president anymore, and, uh, he dropped all the other things. I don't know-

19:06 Speaker 3 Funny, when he's, when he's, when he's president, the Rebbe calls him Morenu Harav.

19:09 Speaker 1 That's right.

19:10 Speaker 3 When he's no longer president, he calls him president.

19:12 Speaker 1 It's really something. So here he's President Shazar. Okay. Look at the lesson there. In honor of the fact that you are now rising to a stage in your life of freedom That you're free from the chains of the, uh, of the elections. or of, I guess of, of, of, of ceremony. and of all the limitations you had before. a Aliyah to a life of great possibilities. There you go. There's our word of the day. of, uh, an independence and of actions of independence. true independence. In addition to the fact that you'll now be able to fulfill your shluchus. The Rebbe says to him, "You're not going down. This isn't your final," uh-- How's he encouraging somebody who's just finished his term in office? He says, "Now's an Aliyah." He goes, "Congratulations on your ascent to a life of freedom and a life of true independence where you can actually, uh, expand, where you can actually explore all the possibilities that are inherent to you without being limited by the office that you held before." he says, "God should do-- It should be God's will." and health and happiness. You should seize on your talents, that God gave you. then through the, uh, things that you learned through your work over the past few years, and the lessons and the nisayon, and also the, um, all the challenges that you faced when you, when you were president Basically, I hope you take all of your experiences from the past ten years and use them. That should

20:37 Speaker 1 be God's will and through-- That with, uh, health and with joy, you'll use all of your prior experiences. what should you use them for? for the good of the general people. the good of everybody. in a way that increases evermore, uh, for many, many years and for many, for many days and for many years. The merit of the masses is, uh, going to help you for the rest of your life. and and you'll be, uh, escorted by the blessings from the Rabbonim, from everybody. with all sorts of honor and blessings and, uh, with honor and blessings. the Rebbe says blessed are you when you leave this job that you had before as president to the one you've had up until now. and also you should be blessed in your, in your arrival. to a higher takupa. where you'll now be able to act, and action is of course the most fundamental thing, and the Rebbe's signature is there. So what we have in these three letters, as a quick review, is we have him, we have him becoming president, the Rebbe saying, "I expect you to expand the role, make it a bigger role than it ever was before. Not to follow-- Not to be content to follow in your predecessor's footsteps, but to turn the office of president into something that we can really use." And, uh, and he really encourages him to expand the role. Ten years later, as things are winding down, he's starting to wind down too, and the Rebbe tells

21:52 Speaker 1 him, "I expect you to go strong until the very last minute because the strength that you have and the, uh, abilities you have are given from on high, and you're expected to be doing your job, and for that you'll get all sorts of zchus." And when his time in term-- when his term in office is over, the Rebbe seems to feel that this is the beginning of the most important years of his life. Um, as it was, it was only one year of his life, but the Rebbe feels this is the most important stage that will exist and that he'll, that he'll have, 'cause now he's no longer limited by the office and now he can truly, now he can truly expand his horizons and, uh, and help. And I think this might be a dig down here a little bit, that in a lot of cases, the president's office, especially the president in Israel, is unable to actually practically do very much. And now the Rebbe's telling him perhaps that now that he's free of the chains of that office, he's now able to explore practically helping, uh, not just speaking in theory or giving speeches, I don't know for sure. But in any case, the Rebbe's definitely celebrating a new tikupa in his life, uh, which is obviously the opposite of what people think when they're done their term in office or done their term of work. The Rebbe's saying, "Now's the time for you to really, for you to really fly." Okay.

22:47 Speaker 1 That's it.

22:50 Speaker 3 So the only-

22:51 Speaker 1 Do you-

22:51 Speaker 3 The only comment I have, this is fantastic. I just wanna make one comment when we're talking about who was the predecessor. I believe that the predecessor the Rebbe's talking about here is, uh, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi. And the reason why I say that is 'cause Yitzhak Ben-Zvi died in nineteen sixty-three. Um, and this-- I've just Wikipedia-ed it, and I saw Yitzhak Ben-Zvi. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't know a lot of the history, but Yitzhak Ben-Zvi is, like, a very, very known, um, very known fierce Zionist. Uh, I don't think he was very religious at all, if I'm not mistaken, but I could be mistaken. But if you're looking at the timeline, the one that he's talking about in the first letter is most likely Yitzhak Ben-Zvi.

23:25 Speaker 1 That makes sense.

23:26 Speaker 2 So what was he trying, what was he trying to differentiate-- What-- How was he trying to, to separate them? Meaning-

23:35 Speaker 3 I don't know, because I would have to know more. I would have to know more about-

23:37 Speaker 2 Do you know what Shazar was going through then the Rebbe was agai-- the Rebbe was getting upset about?

23:41 Speaker 3 I would have to know more, I would have to know more about Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and his, and his, uh, political stance and also what Shazar was saying at the time. Because the o-- the other person between Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and Zalman Shazar was somebody by the name of Kadish Luz, who, uh, who was-- who died in seventy-two, which is, you know-

23:56 Speaker 2 But that was just the interim guy till the election.

23:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. When, when I'm looking online now, it's saying that, uh, it's saying that this was, uh, that he was-- he's considered his successor as the president. There's nothing-

24:04 Speaker 3 He was an acting, 'cause he was just an acting prime minister. He wasn't full prim-- uh, full president. He was an acting president.

24:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:10 Speaker 3 They have a few presidents that were acting presidents along the history here. They have a, a woman by the ma-- name of Dalia Itzik, who was the acting president in July twenty-- two thousand and seventh. So you have some people that were acting, and this guy was-- Kadish Luz was an acting, uh, president for, um, what? For how long was he? From, uh, April nineteen sixty-three to May nineteen sixty-three. So he's-- He had, he had a one-month, uh, acting president gig.

24:34 Speaker 1 So yeah, I, I definitely think you're right. It's almost certainly this, uh, this Yitzhak Ben-Zvi. And I don't know what exactly the Rebbe didn't want him to follow in his footsteps in doing. Um, the only thing we do know is what it says in the letter, which is that one of the things was that he seemed to want the office to be a certain size, that there's a certain role for president, and the Rebbe did not want that to be the role. He wanted the president to have more of a role.

24:53 Speaker 3 And Ben-Zvi also, I believe, had Lubavitcher cousins, had, uh, some, some krovim that were Lubavitchers.

24:57 Speaker 1 Makes sense. The internet says he was born in Poltava. I don't know if they had a lot of non-Lubavitchers in Poltava was, uh, our part of Ukraine, maybe Russia.

25:08 Speaker 3 No, where's the Poltava Nigun?

25:10 Speaker 1 Is that how we're ending-

25:11 Speaker 2 Yeah.

25:11 Speaker 1 Is that how we're ending nigun here today, the Poltava Nigun? Parrot, hit it.

25:15 Speaker 2 It's really the Poltava. I mean, come on.

25:19 Speaker 3 No, this is, this is a very, very, very interesting, interesting, interesting share. But I love the fact, again, I'll reiterate, that the Rebbe calls him, uh, Morenu Harav, Vasya BaChasad, Ish De'a LeChim, while he's president, and then a year later-

25:31 Speaker 2 Perhaps-

25:31 Speaker 3 Just President Schneerson Al Musliha.

25:34 Speaker 2 Perhaps the Rebbe was trying to elevate him to do what he wanted by saying, "Listen, you're the Harav, you, you, you..." It's-- We have to know what the context was, what he, what he wanted to do. It could be, and it could be... I think, I think he became less hardline in his stance about peace, peace with, with the neighbors, I think. Um-

25:52 Speaker 3 I think also what you can, you can also say, interestingly, I just thought of it, is that, that when he's calling him as president, you look at the context of the letter. The, the context of the letter is, "Okay, now you're free, but you still have a, a posthumous status by being a president of Israel." So that gives you still a certain credibility and, and a capability of doing things, even when you're, when you're not in office, just based on your status. So he e- he, he basically addresses him as his, as it with his posthumous status that will actually give him the opportunity within his freedom to accomplish more. I mean, I don't know. I'm just-

26:24 Speaker 2 Yeah.

26:24 Speaker 3 I'm just guessing here.

26:28 Speaker 2 Um, Estam, on the subject of him having a smicha, I think he was very young when he got smicha, no?

26:35 Speaker 1 I-- When I did the research, like he was sixteen.

26:37 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

26:38 Speaker 3 Wow. That's pretty young.

26:39 Speaker 2 Um, they say, they say a story, whether or not it's true is not important, but the story is funny, that, uh, he-- you know, in Israel, everybody sits on Shabbos by the bus stops, and they chew, chew sandwich bread. Some far sees it on Shabbos. So he said-- they say he was driving by some Lubavitcher Bochur, and he sees him eating sandwich bread. So he rolls down his window, and he says, "Alter Rebbe Pasman, you know I'll eat sandwich bread on Shabbos. So it's on Shabbos."

27:04 Speaker 3 It is possible. And I also-- I, I-- It's, it, it would make sense, is also they-- I f- I believe that there was once an account, an, a recounting of one of his, um, his driver that took him to the Rebbe or took him back from the Rebbe, that spoke about the niggunim, the Chassidishe Nigunim, and the bechiyus, and the tears that he would cry on his way back from visiting the Rebbe to the hotel. There was sort of an account of that somewhere. Might be in that book that you're referring to.

27:28 Speaker 2 Also, y-you mentioned earlier that the Rebbe gave him a lot of hadracha, and it's very possible that the Rebbe thought he was a keli to actually follow. The Rebbe wouldn't push things that he didn't think would actually happen, I think. But somebody who was a keli to, to listen and to take it internally, the Rebbe gave a lot of hadracha to.