Ep. 93 // "American Chinuch" w/ Rabbi Herschel Lustig

00:00 Speaker 1 I remember hearing maybe in the earlier years when I was in Alter Rebbe in South Africa, there's a fellow by the name of Koppelbacher. When he was once in Yechidus with, uh, his family, the Rebbe spoke to his father, then turned to him and asked him what his name is. So his father answered for him. So the Rebbe said, "In America, children speak for themselves."

00:27 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benji Afsin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Alrighty, we are here in Crown Heights for another episode of Homesick for Lubavitch with Rabbi Herschel Lustig, the dean of Alter Rebbe for forty years, and today the dean emeritus of Alter Rebbe, the largest, I think by far, Chabad boys' school in the world. Is that correct?

01:03 Speaker 1 I think that's true, yeah.

01:05 Speaker 2 Yes. Certainly the largest. I don't know if by far we can, we can let others debate, but certainly the largest and-

01:10 Speaker 1 And growing

01:11 Speaker 2 ... and growing. And, um, one of the things I look forward to hearing you speak about again, I've had the, I've had the good fortune of interviewing you before for other projects, and, uh, hearing from you how Alter Rebbe began as a very small school. There was no, uh, nobody thought that it would, it would ever be this big. You know, today people think that Alter Rebbe is just there. You know, it's, uh, it's kind of a fact of life. Um, but, you know, y-you were involved in many ways, uh, in the growth of Alter Rebbe from a very small school to what it is today, and I look forward to hearing a b-- more, more about that from you, as well as many other things, im yirtze Hashem. But before we begin, let me just ask those listening to like and subscribe on the various platforms that you're listening to. It helps grow the podcast. And if you really like the podcast, please, please support the podcast or donate to the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Rabbi Lustig, thank you very much for making the time and agreeing to do this.

02:15 Speaker 1 Pleasure.

02:15 Speaker 2 I had another opportunity to interview you before, and, uh, that was about-

02:20 Speaker 1 My mother

02:21 Speaker 2 ... your mother, and we heard the very inter-

02:22 Speaker 1 The Rebbe and, uh, work.

02:24 Speaker 2 Yes. And we sp-- I heard the, uh, the backstory of, uh, of growing up, uh, with your parents and their story. I think we should begin there. I think it's important.

02:34 Speaker 1 Sure.

02:34 Speaker 2 So, so why don't you tell us a little bit about, uh, your father and your father's

06:02 Speaker 1 And they knew some chiddush.

06:04 Speaker 2 Right. For tho- for those that listen to that podcast, she, she told the story. They m- they m- her f- their father took them to a, to a, in a vacation town, one of the places where the fidika went for, for fur. One of these springs, you know, the hot springs.

06:20 Speaker 1 And they met him over there.

06:21 Speaker 2 And he took them to see a godol, you know, and they were gechapt by him, something like... They, they, they were taken-

06:26 Speaker 1 Right

06:26 Speaker 2 ... by his look, something like that.

06:27 Speaker 1 Right. So, um, so this Eliyahu Kalbach had a, uh, a Tanya shiur on the roof of Torah Vodaas every Thursday night for the 14-year-olds.

06:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:40 Speaker 1 My father was one of those 14-year-olds. So that was his connection to Chabad. That, that, that started it off. Shevuet Tof Shen Yud Beis, he had some of his bachurim walk to Crown Heights because you could walk through Bed-Stuy at that time. Um, it was all, all white Jewish. And he, uh, and he got himself into the Friediker Rebbe's fabrengen, talked his way in. They didn't let everyb- everybody-

07:05 Speaker 2 Not Yud Beis, Beis, Tof Shen Beis.

07:07 Speaker 1 Tof Shen Beis, I'm sorry.

07:08 Speaker 2 Right.

07:08 Speaker 1 Tof Shen Beis. Yes. He was a young bachur.

07:11 Speaker 2 Right.

07:11 Speaker 1 He was 14, 15, but he got his way in there somehow, and he, uh, like you mentioned, he saw the Friediker Rebbe's face, and, and he was taken.

07:22 Speaker 2 This is your father now?

07:23 Speaker 1 Yes. He saw the Friediker Rebbe, uh, four times in his young years, um, on, on other occasions. I'm not sure exactly what they were, but, uh, he was already, um... You used the word gechapt, he was taken. And so then, and Reb Shlomo Efraim Mandelovich who was the menahal of Torah Vodaas, he had a minyan, sort of Lubavitch minyan you can call it, that whenever any Rosh Yeshiva came to America from Europe, he would send 10 bachurim to help him start a yeshiva. So when the Telzer Rosh Yeshiva, Reb Eliyahu Bloch came, he sent 10 bachurim to Cincinna- to, uh, Cleveland.

08:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

08:06 Speaker 1 And my father was one of those 10. Maybe he sent him there because my father, his family was in Ohio, I don't know.

08:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:12 Speaker 1 But he sent, he was one of them there. So he went to Telz, but he was already, uh it was already in his blood. He was already a-

08:20 Speaker 2 Lubavitcher

08:20 Speaker 1 ... he was already a Lubavitcher, so.

08:22 Speaker 2 Did he ever describe to you the, this, th- this, what the Friediker Rebbe looked like? Did he ever, did he ever try to describe it to you, or...?

08:28 Speaker 1 He said he looked like a malach. I don't know what that means exactly, because I don't know what a malach looks like, but

08:33 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, but neither did he.

08:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. He didn't look human, put it that way.

08:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:38 Speaker 1 He looked all, you know, heaven, he looked heavenly, I guess you could say.

08:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:42 Speaker 1 He, he was, uh... He said he, once he had that image of the Friediker Rebbe in his mind, that was it.

08:48 Speaker 2 Did he ever describe to you the difference between the Friediker Rebbe and then, and the Rebbe after him?

08:52 Speaker 1 No.

08:52 Speaker 2 No?

08:53 Speaker 1 No. No.

08:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:56 Speaker 1 So he, um, so when my father got married, he moved to Chicago, and, uh, I was born in Chicago, and my father had some good positions over there. He brought me to the Rebbe, this Rebbe, uh, when I was four years old. I don't remember that yechidus at all. Um, the Rebbe asked me to say, "Mai Dani" and "Tzedakah," gave me a silver dollar, which I still have.

09:24 Speaker 2 That's before, obviously, before the

09:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. This was in, uh, I don't know the, in, in, in, uh, Tof Shen Yud Gimel.

09:34 Speaker 2 Right.

09:34 Speaker 1 Way back.

09:35 Speaker 2 So what was the word to "Tzedakah"?

09:38 Speaker 1 I don't know. I mean, that's what my father tells me. I, I don't remember.

09:40 Speaker 2 Was that something that people, was that something that people used to say in school? Was it like...

09:44 Speaker 1 I gue- I was a little kid. I was four years old. So what are you asking a four-year-old kid to say?

09:48 Speaker 2 Right.

09:48 Speaker 1 To, uh, what is he supposed to know?

09:50 Speaker 2 Right.

09:50 Speaker 1 "Tzedakah," I guess.

09:51 Speaker 2 Right, right.

09:51 Speaker 1 Uh, or, or Mai Dani. Uh, what else should he know?

09:54 Speaker 2 Right.

09:54 Speaker 1 I don't know.

09:54 Speaker 2 Right.

09:56 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe gave me a silver dollar, but I don't remember that. The first time that I remember, uh, hearing from the Rebbe was later when I, we lived here already. Um, I was about, probably about eight, nine years old. I was standing at, on, at the staircase at the back of 770, where the Rebbe would enter when he came down to daven from upstairs.

10:19 Speaker 2 This was, uh, this was wh- when the, the first, the first basement?

10:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. The first basement was around.

10:26 Speaker 2 So already in the basement.

10:26 Speaker 1 I don't even know if it was a shul yet. It was maybe just a-

10:29 Speaker 2 A shalash

10:29 Speaker 1 ... shalash, yeah. I'm not even sure it was a shul yet. It was, uh, built. I mean, it was maybe been just a place.

10:34 Speaker 2 Right.

10:35 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe was, came in there, and I was at the foot of that staircase, uh, having a little, uh, physical fight with another boy who was beating me up. Uh, and we didn't see that the Rebbe was coming down the stairs, and then suddenly he was there, and we froze. And then I don't remember the Rebbe's words, but he, he, he told me that as obvious as Shlomo, it's not nice to fight, whatever, he gave, give us a little lecture, and then continued on his way. So that's the first thing that I remember.

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12:06 Speaker 1 In any case, I went to, to yeshiva one year In Chicago. At that time, there was no yeshivas. Today there's Chassidishe yeshivas, Litvishe yeshivas-

12:17 Speaker 2 Right

12:17 Speaker 1 ... big yeshivas, small yeshivas. There was, uh, just a co-ed school.

12:23 Speaker 2 Really?

12:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So when I-- the best kid in my class who read the best when I learned how to read was a girl.

12:31 Speaker 2 Ah.

12:32 Speaker 1 So at the end of that year, my father said, "My Hershel, uh, this is not the chinuch I want for him." And we packed into the car and moved to New York. That was in the end of '56.

12:43 Speaker 2 So the Telz, the Telz Chicago had been open, had been opened up yet or not even?

12:47 Speaker 1 No, no. It was much later.

12:48 Speaker 2 Later. So there was not even a yeshiva there. There was nothing.

12:50 Speaker 1 It was a paro- it was called a parochial school or something.

12:53 Speaker 2 So I'm saying there wasn't a yeshiva that started a-

12:55 Speaker 1 There was nothing

12:55 Speaker 2 ... a Yeshivish community.

12:56 Speaker 1 Nothing.

12:57 Speaker 2 Nothing.

12:57 Speaker 1 The Frydiker Rebbe when he actually started the yeshiva there, I think, uh, I think, uh, maybe, uh, Itche Groner from Australia may have been there.

13:05 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

13:06 Speaker 1 Or, or one of the other shluchim, but they, they folded up.

13:09 Speaker 2 And Rabbi Schusterman was there already?

13:11 Speaker 1 He was there. My father-

13:12 Speaker 2 The older Rabbi Schusterman

13:13 Speaker 1 ... was working for him. Yes. My fa-

13:13 Speaker 2 Oh, your father was working for him?

13:14 Speaker 1 Yes.

13:15 Speaker 2 That's what he was doing there.

13:16 Speaker 1 That's one of the things. He had a few positions.

13:18 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

13:18 Speaker 1 But one of them was that.

13:19 Speaker 2 This is the older Rabbi Schusterman, the father of-

13:20 Speaker 1 Yes

13:20 Speaker 2 ... the one in Beverly Hills.

13:22 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

13:23 Speaker 2 Right. Uh, the shul where, where Rabbi Hertz is today, right? Is it that sh-

13:28 Speaker 1 I don't know, but-

13:29 Speaker 2 Was it Anshe, what's it called? Anshe Reuben something?

13:32 Speaker 1 I, I don't know.

13:32 Speaker 2 You don't remember.

13:33 Speaker 1 I don't know.

13:34 Speaker 2 Right. It's an old, old shul, I think from the times of the Rab Reish Lak or something.

13:37 Speaker 1 Could be.

13:37 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:38 Speaker 1 Could be.

13:39 Speaker 2 Uh, someone will correct me with the actual-

13:40 Speaker 1 He was there, and also Reb Shlome Zalman Hecht was there already.

13:43 Speaker 2 Bnei Reuben.

13:43 Speaker 1 Bnei Reuben, that's what it was called, correct.

13:46 Speaker 2 Right.

13:46 Speaker 1 Reb Shlome Zalman Hecht was also there.

13:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:48 Speaker 1 The oldest of the Hecht brothers.

13:50 Speaker 2 At the same time?

13:51 Speaker 1 Yes.

13:52 Speaker 2 Together with Rabbi Schusterman?

13:53 Speaker 1 He wasn't the rabbi in the shul. He was like the shliach.

13:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Of the Frydiker Rebbe.

13:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't know if he had any positions. Maybe he had a shul also, I don't know.

14:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

14:02 Speaker 1 He was the sh- he was the main head shliach of, of, of Chicago-

14:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

14:06 Speaker 1 ... for the Frydiker Rebbe. And Schusterman was there. And, um, I don't know of anybody else.

14:12 Speaker 2 You're saying there was, there was hardly a f- uh, a footprint of a frum community at that time.

14:18 Speaker 1 There were old-timers who came, you know, before the war or during the war.

14:20 Speaker 2 Right, but today you go to Chicago, there's a-

14:22 Speaker 1 Today there's, yeah, many shuls.

14:24 Speaker 2 Right.

14:24 Speaker 1 It's a different-

14:24 Speaker 2 Right

14:25 Speaker 1 ... today you have-

14:25 Speaker 2 But those days, Cleveland and Cincinnati were bigger frum communities than Chicago.

14:30 Speaker 1 I don't know if Cincinnati was a frum community. Cleveland-

14:33 Speaker 2 Cleveland. Had a yeshiva. Telzer yeshiva

14:34 Speaker 1 ... had a yeshiva, and then around the yeshiva-

14:36 Speaker 2 Yeah

14:37 Speaker 1 ... grew a community, yeah.

14:38 Speaker 2 Right.

14:38 Speaker 1 I'm not sure how many people were there.

14:40 Speaker 2 Right. So, so apparently you come to Crown Heights, and so this, this whole time, but we also haven't spoken about your mother. Your mother-

14:47 Speaker 1 No

14:47 Speaker 2 ... your mother came from-

14:48 Speaker 1 My mother came from-

14:50 Speaker 2 Also came from

14:50 Speaker 1 ... my mother was born in Romania.

14:51 Speaker 2 Right.

14:52 Speaker 1 And she was, uh, her father was a Chashuve Lubav and, and, and, um, and a Ivri yeshiva. He was a Rosh Yeshiva at a big, pretty big yeshiva. It cost 100 bochurim, um, mesivta age level, in a little town called Strimtiere, which is in the Carpathian area of Romania. And, um, she was taken to Auschwitz and, um, Bergen-Belsen, and she went through the war and survived it miraculously.

15:20 Speaker 2 As a teenager, right?

15:21 Speaker 1 Yes, as 15-year-old.

15:23 Speaker 2 Wow.

15:23 Speaker 1 Fifteen-year-old teenager. And she, and, um, she, you know, worked on many occasions and was creative and figured out how to save her life. I mean, it wasn't so simple.

15:35 Speaker 2 No.

15:35 Speaker 1 Um, and, um, so she, after the war was over and after liberation, she w- um, she was, went to, um, Sweden. There was a girls' school there, um, and, um, she was there for two years. And the entire time that she was there, and also in the camps, she kept on memorizing her uncles. Her, her mother had brothers in America who came before the war. They lived in Williamsburg, and she knew that when she would eventually get to America, where is she going?

16:11 Speaker 2 Right.

16:12 Speaker 1 So she memorized the address. It was on Hooper Street. I, I can't remember the number. Let's say 182 Hooper Street or whatever it was. She sh-

16:20 Speaker 2 In Williamsburg

16:20 Speaker 1 ... she just memorized that number over and over all the time.

16:24 Speaker 2 How about that?

16:24 Speaker 1 And then when she finally came to America, she just went there, and they took her in.

16:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:29 Speaker 1 And then she got her own apartment, but at least she had the fir- the first, first step was she's went somewheres.

16:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:36 Speaker 2 The, ev- ev- you're, you're, you're sitting in that, in that dark place, and you, all you have is an address.

16:43 Speaker 1 All she had was the address, yeah.

16:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:47 Speaker 2 And so when she met your father, I mean, people didn't think about things so, so defined in those days of, uh, Lubavitch, not Lubavitch. People, things were more-

16:57 Speaker 1 I, I don't know. She didn't know really my father was a Lubavitcher when they got married.

17:01 Speaker 2 Did, did he know?

17:01 Speaker 1 He wasn't-

17:02 Speaker 2 Was he, was it like unofficial?

17:03 Speaker 1 He was, he was a Lubavitcher at heart, and he did certain things. He maybe nusach, maybe, maybe learned Chassidus. He learned Chassidus, yes, and, and, and other things, but there wasn't a, such a visible, uh, external kind of Lubavitch, you know? No, but eventually he-

17:17 Speaker 2 He didn't have to live in a Lubavitch community necessarily.

17:20 Speaker 1 No, but then when we moved here in the end of '56, we moved to Crown Heights, so that was already, that was already more of a revealed state of being a Lubavitcher.

17:31 Speaker 2 Uh, '56 you said?

17:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:33 Speaker 2 '56, but there were a lot of other people living here, right?

17:35 Speaker 1 Sure. Uh, Lubavi- Crown Heights at that time had, um, uh, probably a minority of Lubavitchers.

17:42 Speaker 2 Right.

17:42 Speaker 1 There were a lot of, uh, frum people who lived here. A lot, first of all, there were a lot of not frum Yidden here.

17:47 Speaker 2 Right.

17:47 Speaker 1 It was Eastern Parkway especially, all the doctors and lawyers and, um-

17:51 Speaker 2 President Street

17:52 Speaker 1 ... President Street, right.

17:54 Speaker 2 Right.

17:54 Speaker 1 And, um-

17:55 Speaker 2 Those houses didn't build themselves, right?

17:57 Speaker 1 Right. No, no, there were wealthy people there. It was a fancy neighborhood-

18:00 Speaker 2 Right

18:00 Speaker 1 ... at that time, and a lot of frum people. And, uh, but then when they all started leaving in the '60s, that's when, you know, Lubavitch became the, the sole The sole guardian of the community

18:13 Speaker 2 So your mother fit in, essentially. It wasn't like a big deal that she's-

18:16 Speaker 1 At that time, yes

18:16 Speaker 2 ... moving to a Lubavitch community.

18:18 Speaker 1 My mother never had close relatives, but she had, uh, her, she had cousins, and she was very close with them.

18:23 Speaker 2 In Williamsburg.

18:24 Speaker 1 First cousin, Williamsburg, and yes, they were like sisters to her, really.

18:28 Speaker 2 Right, I'm just saying, like, it's not like you move to Carleites and you're the only not Lubavitch or-

18:33 Speaker 1 No, not then, no

18:34 Speaker 2 No

18:34 Speaker 1 Then, then there were a lot of people, yes.

18:36 Speaker 2 Right

18:37 Speaker 1 A lot of people.

18:37 Speaker 2 It was a melting pot in that sense.

18:38 Speaker 1 It was in that sense, yeah. For, for a good 15 years it was, it was everybody was there.

18:45 Speaker 2 Right. So for you, I, I mean, we're gonna eventually talk about Ohel Torah, but when you moved here, there was no Ohel Torah, obviously.

18:51 Speaker 1 So I went, there were, there were three-

18:53 Speaker 2 How old were you?

18:55 Speaker 1 Six, seven

18:55 Speaker 2 Ah, you're young kids still

18:56 Speaker 1 Uh, so there were several schools here. For boys, there was Lubavitch Yeshiva on Bedford and Dean, the famous Lubavitch Yeshiva.

19:05 Speaker 2 Sure

19:05 Speaker 1 That served Lubavitch kids, maybe 20% of the school, I don't know exactly, and all sorts of kids that are Toras Hadas type, let's say.

19:15 Speaker 2 Right

19:15 Speaker 1 They're Frum, but you know, not Hasidish, not, you know, not modern.

19:18 Speaker 2 American boys. American boys

19:20 Speaker 1 Then there was a yeshiva, a yeshiva of Eastern Parkway, which was similar.

19:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

19:25 Speaker 1 Then for the Hasidish kids-

19:27 Speaker 2 What, a Chabad yeshiva?

19:28 Speaker 1 No, no

19:29 Speaker 2 A regular yeshiva for-

19:29 Speaker 1 A regular yeshiva

19:29 Speaker 2 ... for re- for Frum American boys

19:31 Speaker 1 Frum American boys. But m- the, the Frum ones, not, not the modern one, not modern Orthodox.

19:37 Speaker 2 So, so more Fr- more Frum than-

19:38 Speaker 1 Same like Lubavitch Yeshiva. I, I-

19:39 Speaker 2 More like Bedford and Dean

19:40 Speaker 1 Yes. And then there was, for the Hasidish kids with the payos, they went to Bobov Yeshiva, which was on Brooklyn Avenue and Park Place, I think.

19:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

19:51 Speaker 1 And then there was a modern, uh, Orthodox place called Yeshiva Prospect Park Day S- or Prospect Park Day School, which was on, um, uh, Parkside, right across the park.

20:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

20:05 Speaker 1 And there was that, and, um, and maybe they, and there was also, uh, in Bais Rivkah, and there, maybe they were in, in the... I think they were in the building of Bais Rivkah originally-

20:18 Speaker 2 I see

20:18 Speaker 1 ... where it's on Bais Rivkah and Crown Street

20:21 Speaker 2 What was that?

20:21 Speaker 1 Could be

20:21 Speaker 2 It's Prospect Park?

20:22 Speaker 1 Could be, I'm not sure. But there was a, a, a modern school-

20:25 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

20:25 Speaker 1 ... also around at that time. These were the schools, so everybody went, uh-

20:29 Speaker 2 Where did you go?

20:30 Speaker 1 So I went to Bedford and Dean

20:32 Speaker 2 Your father didn't want to send you to the Hasidish yeshiva?

20:35 Speaker 1 That was Bobov style. You know, with the payos, it was not our style, you know? Um-

20:41 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying he came all the way from, from Chicago for a Frum chinuch.

20:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, Frum and, but not, not with payos, you know. I wasn't that type of kid, you know?

20:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

20:49 Speaker 1 So, um, I went to Bedford and Dean for four years. Um, at some point in those, at the end of those four years, my father wasn't extremely pleased.

21:00 Speaker 2 Who was your first teacher, if I can ask?

21:02 Speaker 1 Rabbi Fuchs, alav ha-shalom

21:03 Speaker 2 I think someone spoke about him

21:05 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:05 Speaker 2 Rabbi Fuchs

21:05 Speaker 1 He was in Shanghai, if you're not too far from Yew

21:07 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. No, I heard about him from-

21:10 Speaker 1 He wa- he was, he was, uh, if I may, uh, you know, go off on a tangent and tell you about him

21:14 Speaker 2 Dr. Saleksen's friend, right? Dr. Se-

21:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

21:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, so-

21:17 Speaker 1 He was, he was, although he was, uh, you know, from Shanghai and he was, uh, he was a very modern teacher in the sense he had modern approaches. For example, in those days, there was no such thing as a good list. The blackboard always had only a bad list, right? If you're bad, you got in on that list

21:35 Speaker 2 You're saying that's how teachers taught?

21:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:37 Speaker 2 That was-

21:37 Speaker 1 There was no such thing as a good list

21:38 Speaker 2 No. That's, that's-

21:39 Speaker 1 He had-

21:39 Speaker 2 That's, that's expected, yeah

21:40 Speaker 1 He had a tov list

21:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

21:42 Speaker 1 And other such, I'll give you another example. He was-

21:44 Speaker 2 You're saying he was ahead of his time sort of?

21:45 Speaker 1 Ahead of his times, absolutely. He, he would, for example, um, if you're learning a Gemara maklek is abaya and rava, he would say, um, "Okay, Lustig, stand up, you're abaya." And then he would say, "Gansburg, stand up, you're rava. Now have a debate in front of the whole class."

22:01 Speaker 2 He'd bring it to life

22:02 Speaker 1 And, uh, how could you say that as a Mishneh? And no, it's a raaya. Hash- opshlag. It, it, it, that Gemara it's different than when you just learn it, you know, and, uh

22:12 Speaker 2 I, it's coming to life for me already now as I-

22:14 Speaker 1 These, these-

22:15 Speaker 2 ... I'm just thinking about it

22:16 Speaker 1 These, these things were not done then. They were, he was the only teacher in my-

22:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

22:19 Speaker 1 ... younger years that ever, that did such a thing

22:21 Speaker 2 Other, other yerim it's not always done

22:23 Speaker 1 That's also true, unfortunately

22:25 Speaker 2 So, so you're saying he was, he, he, he was a good, he was a good teacher for you to come into?

22:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. He was a very good teacher, very special teacher. And then I had Rabbi Altoiz, Binyamin Altoiz

22:35 Speaker 2 He ended up in Australia, the same one? No

22:37 Speaker 1 No, no, no. No

22:38 Speaker 2 No, that's his, probably his nephew

22:41 Speaker 1 Uh, and then I had Rabbi Brisky, who lived here on this block

22:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

22:46 Speaker 1 And then I had-

22:46 Speaker 2 Oh, the father of all the Briskys

22:47 Speaker 1 Yes

22:48 Speaker 2 Right

22:48 Speaker 1 And then I had Rabbi Goldman, um, Moshe Goldman. He was the, uh, he's father of the, uh, he lived till recently. I think he just passed away maybe two years ago, three years ago. He lived a long life. He was, um, um, he, he, this, he was the son-in-law of Rabbi Simpson from Borough Park. He had, he's the father of one of the Goldman, Yossi Goldman, if you know, and, um-

23:09 Speaker 2 Right

23:10 Speaker 1 And the one, there's one in Brazil, and there's one, uh-

23:12 Speaker 2 I think one's Myan, married to Shalom Rav tonight

23:15 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:15 Speaker 2 Yeah

23:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, so he was my teacher. And then after that, I left and went to my father's, put me in Torat Vadas in Williamsburg

23:24 Speaker 2 So your father probably didn't like the Lubavitch Bilti Seder-

23:27 Speaker 1 He was, uh, he was, uh, not a Lubavitch-

23:28 Speaker 2 The Bilti Seder

23:29 Speaker 1 ... a blind Lubavitcher, I have to take it all

23:31 Speaker 2 I'm saying what he didn't like is-

23:32 Speaker 1 I like it. If I like what I like, I like. What I don't like, I don't, no

23:35 Speaker 2 Right. I'm saying what didn't, what didn't he like? Probably the Bilti Seder and the Melavamalkia of it

23:39 Speaker 1 I, those days, parents didn't share with their children exactly what, what, what the, the, the teacher is good or bad or the school is good or bad or-

23:46 Speaker 2 I'm saying what do you remember of the school? It was a Balagan?

23:48 Speaker 1 No

23:49 Speaker 2 No

23:49 Speaker 1 No

23:50 Speaker 2 Ah, so that wasn't it

23:50 Speaker 1 It wasn't a Balagan

23:51 Speaker 2 That wasn't it

23:52 Speaker 1 I mean, you know, I, it could have been better. I mean, I was a principal of a school, so I know, I know what I, you know, how to make it better, but-

23:58 Speaker 2 Right

23:58 Speaker 1 ... uh, it wasn't a Balagan, no. But he, he didn't think they're learning enough and, um, whatever. I don't know exactly

24:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

24:07 Speaker 1 So he transferred me to Torat Vadas in Williamsburg, and I was there for about 10 years. Not always in Williamsburg, because Torat Vadas moved. They were in, on, uh, I was on, uh, on, um, Bedford corner Taylor, they had a building. Then they had a building in South Third Street. Then they had a building-

24:24 Speaker 2 Oh, they're also in Bedford. Bed- they, they're also on Bedford

24:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, but, uh, quite a distance out

24:30 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

24:30 Speaker 1 Corner of Taylor, right

24:31 Speaker 2 Rabbi Mendelovitch was still there when you came?

24:33 Speaker 1 No. No, he wasn't alive anymore

24:35 Speaker 2 Wasn't alive anymore

24:36 Speaker 1 And-

24:36 Speaker 2 He seems like a fascinating figure

24:37 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. He had a ashpo on all the Bochum. He's the one who, who got all the talmidim to, to devote their lives to chinuch

24:44 Speaker 2 Right. Your father spoke about him at all?

24:47 Speaker 1 Little bit, not much

24:48 Speaker 2 Oh

24:48 Speaker 1 My father would only tell me that, uh, he started Torat Mosair and started the yeshivas in exclusive of the Friediker Rebbe. Why so? Because he said, my father says he remembers this. He said, "If the Friediker Lubavitch Rebbe can..." Before that, America was, anything out of New York was frozen solid

25:07 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

25:08 Speaker 1 Either you were in New York, had a yeshiva. Outside of New York, there was no hope for any Yiddishkeit, any Frumkeit, any yeshiva. But Rabbi Mendelovitch said that, "If the Friediker Lubavitcher Rebbe can do it, I can do it as well." So he also started sending, uh, encouraging his bochurim to-

25:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

25:23 Speaker 1 ... go out to yeshivas, and he even made a school in Monsey. It was called Aish Das, where they taught, um, methodologies, and, um, didn't last too long. I'm not sure why. Um, but he w- he wanted the teachers to have the, the background that they needed and to be trained properly. Yeah, he was very, uh... And like I said, just sending yeshivas, sending bochurim to all the new-

25:48 Speaker 2 Right

25:48 Speaker 1 ... giving away 10 of your bochurim.

25:50 Speaker 2 Right. And there weren't so many bochurim to work with in those days.

25:52 Speaker 1 Correct. And he'd give away 10 to here, and then 10 to all the other yeshivas that came. I'm not sure of the whole list. Probably could, you could see. You could find it.

26:00 Speaker 2 No, he, he was a special man, you read about him.

26:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he was inspirational, and he, uh, he himself taught Tanya-

26:07 Speaker 2 Yeah

26:07 Speaker 1 ... amongst all the Sefardim.

26:08 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, yeah.

26:08 Speaker 1 He didn't like when Rabbi Jacobson turned the Bo- He was giving a Tanya shiur in yeshiva. He didn't like when he turned the bochurim into Lubavitchers. He wanted the school to be, uh, open to all Frum kids in America, so people shouldn't be uncomfortable sending-

26:24 Speaker 2 Right

26:24 Speaker 1 ... their children there. If they're gonna become, uh, with beards, and they grow beards, and they become Chassidim, and the-

26:30 Speaker 2 Right

26:31 Speaker 1 ... they're not gonna want. That's also why the Malachim who were, uh, he asked them to leave the yeshiva for the same reason. He didn't, he wanted it to be, you know-

26:39 Speaker 2 Open

26:40 Speaker 1 ... open to every- everybody.

26:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, he also, he, I mean, reading his biography a few months ago, he also, he was hoping that in America there could be a new kind of yeshivah that took in all the ma'alos of-

26:55 Speaker 1 Of everybody

26:55 Speaker 2 ... of, of everybody, you know? He, like, he, he, in the book it wr- they write how he, he was, for a few year, for a few years, more than a few years, he lived in America without his family. It took them a while till they came over, and he was teaching somewhere in New England or something. Maybe it was Worcester. And he had a tree that he would show his family whenever he went back there, that this was a tree that I learned Tanya. He sa- I learned Tanya at this tree with, during his-

27:18 Speaker 1 He blended, you see, he, he blended the yeshiva. He t- he, he, he took a Litvishe derech halimud.

27:23 Speaker 2 Right.

27:24 Speaker 1 He hired Litvishe roshei yeshivas because he held that, that that's the best way to learn. But on the other hand, he wanted a little bit Chassidishelach ruchnius in the yeshiva. So the nusach was Nusach Sefard.

27:34 Speaker 2 Right.

27:35 Speaker 1 They would sing by Lecha Dodi. There were Shalosh Udos.

27:37 Speaker 2 Right.

27:38 Speaker 1 And-

27:38 Speaker 2 Shalosh Udos, he refused to say it without tears. It's only for singing.

27:42 Speaker 1 Uh, right. And he, so he try, and he, he taught all the Sefarim. He taught Tanya, and he taught, uh, Ramchal Sefarim. He taught Rabbi Shamshel Paul Hirscher Sefarim. He taught Mesilas Yeshorim. He taught all of the... He felt that you gotta take the best from everybody.

27:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, so it's-

27:56 Speaker 1 That was his shiita

27:57 Speaker 2 ... yeah, that was his shiita. The Peleg, the Peleg is probably mesiah to some extent, but it seems like in the end everyone-

28:01 Speaker 1 Because people, when they learn something, and if they're taken by it, they just go all the way. That's, that's-

28:06 Speaker 2 Right. Chabad-

28:07 Speaker 1 ... especially, especially teenagers.

28:08 Speaker 2 Right, Chabad became more Chabad. Litv- uh, you know, Lakewood became hardcore Lakewood, and so on.

28:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, and so that-

28:13 Speaker 2 But, uh, he was trying. He was trying. So you, you, you were, you were saying that, so you went, you went to, you went to Torah Vodaas for 10 years, and, and, and then what happened?

28:23 Speaker 1 And then, but during this entire 10 years, I lived in Crown Heights.

28:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

28:27 Speaker 1 So I was always by the Rebbe's tkiyas and by the Rebbe's hakofas and by the Rebbe's nuni gunalim some Kosara morning, and by, uh, occasionally by farbrengens when I was, uh, 16, 17 years old. When, um, you know, so I was always connected with the Rebbe and with Lubavitch being here, living here.

28:45 Speaker 2 So you were like the Lubavitcher in Torah Vodaas.

28:47 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. And I, and I ha-

28:49 Speaker 2 Were there others?

28:49 Speaker 1 Yes, there were. Uh, and basically, they were my mishpochim. There was a whole group of guys who, so I would learn Chassidus with them, and, uh, some of them eventually came here, some didn't.

29:00 Speaker 2 But there weren't other Lubavitchers from family, Lubavitch families in Torah Vodaas.

29:04 Speaker 1 There was Silberberg, Meir Silberberg, who, uh, or ca- who became, his parents became from, in the Bronx, so he was already Lubavitcher. His family was Lubavitch.

29:15 Speaker 2 Oh, this one in Detroit?

29:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

29:17 Speaker 2 He was with you in Torah Vodaas?

29:18 Speaker 1 Yes, we were chavruses.

29:19 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

29:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. And we, and then we came here together. We both asked the Rebbe if we should come here, transfer here, and the Rebbe told me the famous answer that he gives many, that the person learns b'makom she'o libe chofetz, where he enjoys, where he wants to be. And, um, there was in, in my days in Torah Vodaas, the person who was the inspiration for Chassidishkeit, for, for the bochurim, was Rabbi Moshe Wolfson. He was the one who brought a little Chassidus into this place.

29:50 Speaker 2 He passed away a few years ago.

29:51 Speaker 1 Correct.

29:52 Speaker 2 That one.

29:52 Speaker 1 Correct, yes.

29:53 Speaker 2 So he wa- he was mashgiach there, right?

29:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, well, he was mashgiach, but he wasn't just mashgiach marking attendance.

29:57 Speaker 2 Mashgiach ruchni, like-

29:58 Speaker 1 He, he, he actually, he-

30:00 Speaker 2 Right

30:00 Speaker 1 ... he inspired the bochurim to go beyond learning just be-bekama. He, he-

30:06 Speaker 2 No, I mean, their word mashgiach usually means, uh, ru- uh, uh, a mashgiach-

30:09 Speaker 1 So it, it's interesting that when I, I told him that I would be asking the Rebbe, um, if I should transfer to 770, so he wrote a letter to the Rebbe and gave me a copy. He told the Rebbe basically that he doesn't want an an- the, the, he doesn't want to get an answer from the Rebbe. Whatever the Rebbe will tell me, that's my, that's his answer. He's fine with that. And he writes like this, "The over posheto etzli, it's clear to me she-ki she-nichnas talmid eitz l'raboi," that when a student asks his teacher for advice, "shene-skabel biYisrael lishmoi eitz mipiv, az harei hu keshomeia mipi ha'navi."

30:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

30:49 Speaker 1 Strong words.

30:50 Speaker 2 Right.

30:50 Speaker 1 It's as we're hearing from a prophet. So whatever the Rebbe's going to say to me, that's fine for him. He's just told the Rebbe that I did certain things in yeshiva, and that I was a-

31:02 Speaker 2 I love that

31:02 Speaker 1 ... alter rebbe, and then I helped out, whatever it is.

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32:14 Speaker 1 So I came to Summer 70 and, uh, learned here for a year or two and then got married and lived in Nekailu. And, um, after that, I went to Al-Itayra.

32:27 Speaker 2 After that, you went to teach, you went to start off as a teacher there?

32:31 Speaker 1 No, I started off as a principal there as Menahil. I had teaching experience in the camps for a couple of years before that. Um, I'd been in Camp Teravidas and I had, um, head of the Masmidim and I, I did a lot of teaching in various places.

32:47 Speaker 2 But before we get there, you, you were in Yeshiva, you were in, you were, you were, you said you were in Teravidas for 10 years, then you came to, what, 770?

32:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

32:55 Speaker 2 What was it, what was for you, what was that transition like?

32:58 Speaker 1 We, we, I, we had already learned, uh, quite a bit of Hasidus, Neil Silverberg and myself. We had, and, um-

33:04 Speaker 2 No, I'm talking about the Aviram or the-

33:07 Speaker 1 Well, it was different, very different, but I was, I was to a certain degree used to it. I was, I told you I lived here.

33:13 Speaker 2 Right.

33:14 Speaker 1 So I was, 770 was my second home, or maybe it should be my first home, but it was, it was home to me already from before. Not in Yeshiva, but I was always hanging around here.

33:23 Speaker 2 What was Yeshiva like? This is upstairs 770?

33:25 Speaker 1 Only upstairs. There's no downstairs.

33:27 Speaker 2 What was, what was it like? What was it like? Who was Rosh Yeshiva? What was it?

33:30 Speaker 1 Rosh Yeshiva, when I came, there was still Rabbi Piekarski from Queens.

33:34 Speaker 2 Oh, he was there for a long time after also, no?

33:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. And Rabbi Mantlik was there. So I don't know who had the title Rosh Yeshiva. I think Rabbi Piekarski.

33:44 Speaker 2 Right.

33:44 Speaker 1 Rabbi Mantlik was there. David Raskin was there. And, uh, Shloime Zarchi. And, um-

33:52 Speaker 2 Shloime Zarchi was there. When did you come?

33:53 Speaker 1 He was Mashgiach. Uh, Lamed Aleph or something like that.

33:58 Speaker 2 I see. I see. So he had just started, I assume, no? Shloime Zarchi.

34:01 Speaker 1 Could be. He was a young man, yeah.

34:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:03 Speaker 1 And there was also, um, um, Reb Sholom Marazov, Sholom Marazov.

34:09 Speaker 2 He, he worked in the Yeshiva?

34:11 Speaker 1 He was Mashgiach during, he was, he had, he taught Hasidus, I think he was Mashgiach by Nigla.

34:17 Speaker 2 Was Reb Sholom Mashgiach marking people's attendance? Is, this was, this was a man baki in Hashas.

34:23 Speaker 1 He was, he was baki not only in Hashas, he knew everything. I still remember once, uh, when he would, he would say a lot of Tehillim during the time he was being Mashgiach.

34:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

34:32 Speaker 1 So I remember one of the bachurim, not very respectful, would say, "Reb Sholom, aren't you supposed to be," uh, in Yiddish obviously, "Aren't you supposed to be answering questions, not saying Tehillim?"

34:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:44 Speaker 1 So he said, "How do you know? If I didn't say Tehillim, how could I answer the questions?"

34:50 Speaker 2 Right.

34:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he, yeah, he was, he was, uh...

34:54 Speaker 2 Ah, so they had, they had him there as a Mashgiach.

34:56 Speaker 1 A-

34:57 Speaker 2 Reb Yael was there also, no? Or he was not involved?

34:59 Speaker 1 Yael was more in, was I think in Ocean Parkway at the time.

35:02 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

35:03 Speaker 1 Or in Chaim Vey, maybe it was in Chaim Vey.

35:04 Speaker 2 So who was, who was giving shiurim Hasidus?

35:07 Speaker 1 I got some shiurim I got from Rabbi Jacobson.

35:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

35:10 Speaker 1 He was still giving shiurim.

35:12 Speaker 2 So he was a Mashpia of, of 770?

35:14 Speaker 1 He was, he was, he was very elderly at the time. He was like, uh, official Mashpia. I'm not sure if he had the, who had which titles, but it was him, Shloime Zarchi was.

35:23 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

35:24 Speaker 1 Um, I don't know.

35:27 Speaker 2 So Reb Yael was teaching in Ocean Parkway?

35:29 Speaker 1 I think so.

35:29 Speaker 2 What was Ocean Parkway, the younger bachurim?

35:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:32 Speaker 2 The younger bachurim.

35:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:34 Speaker 2 Interesting. It's interesting that he wouldn't be teaching the older bachurim. I wonder why.

35:42 Speaker 1 I'm, I'm not sure.

35:43 Speaker 2 Who knows? Yeah. Interesting. So w- w- what, what are your, uh, what were your impressions of the Yeshiva then?

35:53 Speaker 1 Look, it was, it very different from, um, from Teravidas.

35:58 Speaker 2 It was different.

35:58 Speaker 1 Very different. So Hasmod obviously was, was less.

36:02 Speaker 2 Was less.

36:02 Speaker 1 I remember, uh, Rabbi Mantlik was asking me that, asked me that question. He came over to me, he asks me, "Where do they learn with greater Hasmod, in Teravidas or here?" So I told him in Teravidas. He says, "I don't understand. A bachur here learns Tanya, and he learns that when you learn Torah, how you connect to Hashem Yisbarach, and how you mamish, how you mamish one with him, and so on and so forth. Isn't that, uh, in Teravidas, they learn to become a gadol, become a Rosh Yeshiva. And here, but here it should be much more." But it wasn't. On the other hand, bachurim here, you know, had the, the, the, the, the, the devotion to, to, to spending your life and, and doing what, what, uh, the Rebbe wants, what the Ebeshter wants. Uh, you know, it was, you didn't have that over, over there. My friends were all, um, building careers. They were going to, to college and after five o'clock or whatever, and become all sorts of professionals. That was the goal.

36:59 Speaker 2 Right.

37:00 Speaker 1 Very few bachurim sat and learned the whole day. Here it was a Yeshiva where everybody, whoever was, you know, learning was, it was a se- it was-

37:08 Speaker 2 How do you explain that? How do you take explain that?

37:12 Speaker 1 Because, um, it's, uh, we're all human, so, you know, if you, if you, if you, if you tell a child, "I'll give you a prize," it's, it's gonna motivate him more than if you tell him that, "If you learn Torah, uh, you become connected to Hashem." It's, it's not so easy to feel that, you know? I kn- I learn it. I, I read it. I hear it. But I believe it, but, you know, it's not the same as, uh-

37:34 Speaker 2 But they weren't becoming daylim there. You're saying they were becoming lawyers.

37:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, some. Yeah, but even somebody who was learning full-time or even if he's becoming lawyer, so he was gonna be about a, a c- a, a firm of Balabos, as they say. He would be a lawyer, and he'd be You know, they, they had the-

37:54 Speaker 2 No-

37:54 Speaker 1 They were good guys. They were, they were-

37:55 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying what, what, y- why, why, why did they have more of an incentive for hasmadre if they weren't becoming a godol?

38:02 Speaker 1 I guess that, then maybe I was referring to those who were learning full-time.

38:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Uh-huh, I see. I see.

38:10 Speaker 1 There were those also, so.

38:11 Speaker 2 So you, you, you, you felt that, you, you felt that there was more hasmadre back in Tervadas?

38:17 Speaker 1 More hasmadre. They sat and learned, you know, morning till night, and, and, you know, it was-

38:22 Speaker 2 Did that bother you at all back then?

38:24 Speaker 1 No, not, not so much, no.

38:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Interesting. I mean, my, my, my father also, uh, um, when he was in m- he went to Mesivta in Tels, I think in Cleveland.

38:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

38:38 Speaker 2 But he was in both Cleveland and Chicago. I don't know which one came first.

38:41 Speaker 1 Cleveland.

38:42 Speaker 2 No, I don't know which one he-

38:43 Speaker 1 Or where your father was first

38:43 Speaker 2 ... I don't know which one he came, went to first. I think he was in both of them at some point. Um, and then he ca- yeah, you know, it's, uh it's also, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, like, over there it's a singular focus. All you have to learn-

38:57 Speaker 1 That's very true

38:58 Speaker 2 ... is Gemara. You come to Lubavitch, and first of all, you have to learn Gemara, you have to learn Chassidus.

39:04 Speaker 1 They also-

39:05 Speaker 2 Then you have to learn

39:06 Speaker 1 ... so you have to do, yeah

39:06 Speaker 2 ... you have to learn

39:06 Speaker 1 And, um

39:06 Speaker 2 ... you have to learn

39:06 Speaker 1 ... and, and Messian, but Messian didn't exist then yet, but there was what they call tzach pulas. There was going out and spreading Yiddish guide, helping Yidden, going out to places.

39:15 Speaker 2 Right.

39:15 Speaker 1 So there was always a, an, an, a value system of what's more important in life. There were a number of things like you're pointing out.

39:22 Speaker 2 Right.

39:22 Speaker 1 It wasn't singular in, in Tervadas or in Lu- in Litvish yeshivas was just learning Torah, nothing else.

39:28 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, also there was Chabrainians, like all these things like you, we, we think, "Oh yeah, yeah, I just do another thing, another thing." If, if, you know, if you're, if you're running a business, you're a principal of a school, you're, you're anything, and you, you have five tasks in front of you-

39:45 Speaker 1 You don't do any of them 100%.

39:46 Speaker 2 You don't do any of them, right? It's always a struggle. I used to think of-

39:49 Speaker 1 Yeah, but the Rebbe, the ex- the Rebbe expected us to, when we learn Torah to be in and not to think about Messian or not to think about anything else. Now, and when we do something else, not dominating, not to think about, but we're human-

40:01 Speaker 2 Right

40:01 Speaker 1 ... and we don't, it's very hard to be that way.

40:03 Speaker 2 Right. It's easier said than done. Chabad want primus, and that's how it's supposed to be, but yeah, it's, it's difficult. And so I think like, eh, to me that sounds like that's the easiest explanation of... 'Cause at the end of the day, the bachurim in, in a Litvish yeshiva, they're, they're human, right? Bachurim in Lubavitch yeshiva are human. And, and so when you look at why in one yeshiva is it like this, in another yeshiva is like that, to me the, the easiest, the, the most obvious explanation is that a singular focus does— and that's probably why they do it that way, if I had to guess. That's probably why they, they structure the yeshiva to be only Gemara.

40:37 Speaker 1 It's only Gemara.

40:38 Speaker 2 Okay.

40:38 Speaker 1 And they a little bit Mosser, a little bit Halacha, but basically it's Gemara, Gemara, Gemara, so.

40:42 Speaker 2 I th- I think it makes sense. If, if, if you want people to become, you know-

40:47 Speaker 1 To excel in that area, then that's, you gotta be completely focused on that.

40:50 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

40:51 Speaker 1 That's true.

40:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, so, so that leads us into to Ohel Torah, is that you come to Ohel Torah, you're pr- you're principal of Ohel Torah.

40:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:00 Speaker 2 Uh, in your mind, which, which model do you want to, uh, to have over here? The model of Tels? I mean, it's, uh, not entirely up to you, but h- how are you thinking about, you know, do we, do we try to d- do, do we try to encourage boys to learn the whole day? There's other things like, uh, like pulas and other things that are-

41:20 Speaker 1 Okay, look, I was dealing with children, elementary school.

41:23 Speaker 2 Right.

41:23 Speaker 1 So I'm not dealing with bachurim necessarily. It was elementary school. But even in elementary school, the f- we, we ins- try to instill in the bachurim, uh, that when they finish the system, they go out on shlichas-

41:36 Speaker 2 Right

41:36 Speaker 1 ... and they do Rebbe shlichas. That's the ultimate goal. Um, as opposed to just s- being able to learn a lot Gemara and a, and a posse of Chumash.

41:46 Speaker 2 Right.

41:46 Speaker 1 But it's the goal of going out to be the Rebbe shlich. That was the ultimate goal.

41:51 Speaker 2 Already then?

41:51 Speaker 1 Already then.

41:52 Speaker 2 Already in Te-

41:53 Speaker 1 Yes

41:53 Speaker 2 ... in the lameds?

41:54 Speaker 1 In the lameds. I remember that, um, we used to have the Kinus Hashluchim in yeshiva in Ohel Torah when it would fit in the early years. So people would say, "Don't allow it. They disturb because it's hard to run a yeshiva when there's a thou- 2,000 people walking around," and this and that.

42:09 Speaker 2 Oh, you're talking about the Kinusim in the later years?

42:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, but even in the early years when it was smaller, um, they would, it, it, it disturbs.

42:15 Speaker 2 Right. Sure, sure.

42:16 Speaker 1 They're using our classrooms, they're using this and that. But I think that that accomplished more of instilling in the children. They saw a live thing, shlichas. They saw people excited and, and learning from each other and accomplishing and describing what they accomplished. So it, it, it gave everybody the cheshek, "I also wanna be a shlich. I also wanna do what the Rebbe wants. I wanna be part of this."

42:39 Speaker 2 Did you feel at the time that this was gonna be at the cheshbon of hasmadre that you had seen in other schools when you were younger?

42:46 Speaker 1 Not, not by elementary school kids. I, I don't think that it had... That, that's when they're bachurim. I don't think that's, that's-

42:52 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

42:52 Speaker 1 ... relevant to kids. Kids do whatever, whatever the teacher do- tells them to do, they do.

42:57 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So, so may, may, maybe let's talk a little about, I know we've, we've spoken about this in the past, um, but, uh, you, you spoke, uh, you spoke about, uh, there's a very unique group of people that you were, that you were working with in, uh, in, in Ohel Torah back then. There was, uh, there was Rav Michal, there was Rabbi Rosenfeld Right. Uh, he came there before you, right?

43:21 Speaker 1 Before me, yes.

43:22 Speaker 2 Right. He came back from California, and he, he, he was instructed by Rabbi Chodikov, I think, to, to, to take the job of Alterra. Something like-

43:31 Speaker 1 That, that I don't know, but, um-

43:33 Speaker 2 Someone told me that at the time.

43:34 Speaker 1 Could be.

43:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:34 Speaker 1 Could be.

43:35 Speaker 2 And, uh, uh- So y- I think, I think you were telling me about there was a very interesting, um, tension there. There was a st- a story with the, with, with the new buses or something.

43:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. So Machol was a Yid who, well, was a Mesirus Nefesh Yid. He, back in Russia, he was a Melamed. Um, you know, he was ultra-Chasidis back there. He would daven for hours and be a Melamed of, uh, many, many of the yungerleit that live in Crown Heights if they're, if they're alive still. Uh, he started the yeshiva because the Rebbe said so, and, um, he never took a penny from the yeshiva ever in his life. It was just l'shem Shamayim, the whole thing. He was a Shamash in the shul in East Flatbush.

44:21 Speaker 2 So that's what he made his parnasa from?

44:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, uh, whatever, whatever, whatever parnasa, I don't think it was very great, but whatever it is-

44:28 Speaker 2 Could you imagine? Yeah.

44:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, so he was completely devoted to that and, and, um, in the early years, in the early years, uh, the Rebbe would-- The Rebbe told him that he should worry about the ruchnius of the yeshiva, and I'll take care of the gashmius. The Rebbe paid the salaries, can you imagine, in the first few months or a year, I don't know how long.

44:58 Speaker 2 Of Alterra?

44:59 Speaker 1 Yes. And then Reb Nissan Demanov from France came here and heard what the Machol was doing and gave him over the head, "You're taking money from the Rebbe. You're supposed to be giving money to the Rebbe, not taking money from the Rebbe." So that stopped, and then the Rebbe got Dovid Deitsch, the famous philanthropist from, uh, New Haven, to take over the gashmius of the yeshiva. So it was the Yissachar-Zevulun relationship. Machol was the Iz-- was the Yissachar. Dovid Deitsch was the, um, Zevulun.

45:29 Speaker 2 Did they go back to Russia? Did they have a relationship back in Russia? Was this-

45:32 Speaker 1 Could be. I don't know.

45:33 Speaker 2 Right.

45:34 Speaker 1 Could be. It's very possible. I don't know. Um-

45:37 Speaker 2 Machol was from Russia, right?

45:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't know. And Deitsch was as well.

45:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure.

45:41 Speaker 1 I don't know whether they, whether, uh, you know, he learned by him. I'm not sure. Uh, Machol brought in people into yeshiva, people like Rabbi Eli Chaim Rotblatt, you know, a real also Chasidishe Yidden, and there was nothing else in their life except doing what Hashem wants. So that was him. He was the inspiration of the yeshiva and the boss, literally. He was, um, dictatorial in a sense. There was no, you know, what he wanted had to be, and the way he wanted it had to be. Rabbi Rosen-

46:09 Speaker 2 What, what, what did he get involved in? Everything? The gashmius, uh, the-

46:14 Speaker 1 Uh, everything, really. Everything and fundraising, but he didn't-- He wasn't hands-on. It was, he didn't run the day-to-day operations.

46:20 Speaker 2 So he was a boss in what sense? If something he-

46:22 Speaker 1 Any decisions, uh, you know, had, that had to be made about what to do, to hire a teacher, fire a teacher, b- uh, uh, open a new class, get a new building, change the curriculum. What-whatever it is, whatever there was, or, or even, for example, on a day of a big snow, uh, he would personally go with the school bus. There would be a driver, and he would go and stop at people's houses and tell them, "You gotta send your son to yeshiva in the, in the snow." You know, he, he was, he was all the way. There was no, there was nothing in his way.

46:53 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, oh, so the, the, the no-snow days started with him?

46:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. Absolutely.

46:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. I, I guess from Russia, you're not snow from a little bit of snow.

47:01 Speaker 1 No. No.

47:03 Speaker 2 How, how was it for you to, to go from being this American boy, basically, to working for this hardcore Russian dictator, like, uh, Russia style?

47:13 Speaker 1 Well, he was one man, but there was Rabbi Rosenfeld, and Rabbi Rosenfeld was, uh, an American boy.

47:18 Speaker 2 Right.

47:18 Speaker 1 He grew up in Brownsville. And he, at the time when I came, he was involved in everything, but his main focus was fundraising, covering the budget of the yeshiva. That was his job. But he un-- You know, he was American himself, so he was, he was, uh, you know, in the same, same ballpark I was, you know? They were... And there were other people who were very involved at the time, Reb Mendel Marazov.

47:41 Speaker 2 Right.

47:42 Speaker 1 Um, and he was a very in-

47:43 Speaker 2 Sholom's brother.

47:45 Speaker 1 Correct. He was, um, an intelligent person and had s- good ideas and understanding of what to do and how to do. And, um, we grew the yeshiva. Now, what, what, basically what I did at the very beginning was, the first couple of years was change the yeshiva from being a shtiebel to being a yeshiva. Uh, to be, you know, there's the curriculum. There's what you, what each grade had to learn, what each teacher had to learn at d- at eleven o'clock and at twelve o'clock, and how much you had to cover, you know.

48:14 Speaker 2 You Americanized it.

48:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, I made it into a school.

48:17 Speaker 2 Right. So the-

48:18 Speaker 1 And people appreciated that.

48:19 Speaker 2 There was no resistance from Machol, for example?

48:22 Speaker 1 No. Why should he?

48:23 Speaker 2 I would say, I would say 'cause of cul-culture, culturally, there's a reason why Lubavitch mosdos were, were, were blah, blah-

48:30 Speaker 1 No, because he, the way he started it, it was like that.

48:32 Speaker 2 Right.

48:32 Speaker 1 It was Haimish, you know?

48:33 Speaker 2 So it didn't bother him that you're making these official-

48:35 Speaker 1 No, and, and, and also because Rabbi Chodikov was behind me.

48:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

48:38 Speaker 1 Uh, he, uh, insisted on seeing everything I do or, or I used to make a lot of workbooks and, 'cause there was nothing available in Yiddish for the kids to use. Um, s- he would, uh, um, a curriculum, he would ask to see everything in the early years. And Machol had asked the Rebbe advice about something in Chinuch, and the Rebbe told him that all questions of Chinuch he should ask Rabbi Chodikov, ""Baal Ehud HaYaroz Mishver."" He has, uh, instructions from the previous Rebbe.

49:08 Speaker 2 About Chinuch?

49:09 Speaker 1 Yes. So after that, so when I came, it was, that was after that story. So we never, ever asked the Rebbe any questions about Chinuch. All questions were directed to Rabbi Chodikov, and, and, and we followed his, his, uh-

49:23 Speaker 2 So Rabbi Chodikov in many ways had, was very deeply involved with Alterra.

49:27 Speaker 1 Yes, I would say so. In many ways.

49:29 Speaker 2 And Rabbi, and Rabbi Chodikov you said was behind you. He, he was the one that told you-

49:32 Speaker 1 I mean, he backed me for-

49:32 Speaker 2 He was the one that told you to go into the school?

49:34 Speaker 1 No, no, but I mean, uh, but he wanted to also run a school in this way. I think he ran one himself like that back in, in Latvia.

49:41 Speaker 2 Right.

49:41 Speaker 1 He was a-

49:42 Speaker 2 In Riga, yeah.

49:42 Speaker 1 He understood how a school has to be. Uh, it's gotta be a curric-- There's a, there's a booklet, a pamphlet I should say, published by America's Lehiyanu Chinuch, which has, lays out the curriculum for entire elementary school. It's almost impossible to follow, you know, to finish 50 kumshi teru by this grade, to learn kumush, to learn this, to learn that. He would call me and insist that-

50:01 Speaker 2 And this was written by Rabbi Chodikov?

50:03 Speaker 1 I don't know if he wrote it. I'm not sure.

50:05 Speaker 2 But it was published under his-

50:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, he would, uh, call me about make sure we're learning Nach, and we're learning Dikduk, and we're learning, uh, And then we, we spend time on proper penmanship and all these things. He was-

50:18 Speaker 2 Proper penmanship?

50:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. He was always, um, on top of all of these things for first couple of years that I was there.

50:25 Speaker 2 Wow.

50:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:26 Speaker 2 How, why did you take the job? I didn't ask you.

50:30 Speaker 1 Why? I wanted to be involved in the Chinuch or Rabbonis. I had two options at that time, and this one came up.

50:37 Speaker 2 Why Chinuch? What you... Was it something that-

50:39 Speaker 1 I was very inspired that I would, I would devote my life. It was, that's what the Rebbe want, Shlichus or Chinuch.

50:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:45 Speaker 1 That was, that was the, um, what I wanted to devote my life to. This came up.

50:50 Speaker 2 So Chinuch was something that people spoke about as a, as a calling back then?

50:55 Speaker 1 The Friediker Rebbe pushed it a lot.

50:57 Speaker 2 Right.

50:57 Speaker 1 By the Friediker Rebbe, Chinuch was the big thing.

50:59 Speaker 2 Right.

51:00 Speaker 1 This wasn't so much later, you know.

51:01 Speaker 2 So you think you got it from your father, maybe? Your father's connection-

51:05 Speaker 1 Possibly

51:05 Speaker 2 ... to the Friediker Rebbe, yeah.

51:06 Speaker 1 Possibly, you know.

51:06 Speaker 2 And your father was also involved with different schools.

51:08 Speaker 1 And in Tomchei Tmimim I got it also, the devotion. The Chinuch, Chinuch was the, the-

51:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

51:11 Speaker 1 ... the, uh, the goal if you really wanted to devote your life instead of becoming a doctor or a lawyer. If you wanted to do, uh, you know, spend your life doing worthy causes, spending it, uh, so Chinuch was the, was it.

51:23 Speaker 2 So c- can you-- Wou- you would go and ask Rabbi Chadikov a question, or you, or-

51:28 Speaker 1 Either I would or Mendel Marazu would or Rabbi Rosenfeld would.

51:31 Speaker 2 Can you describe what that was like? I, I don't know that, that-

51:34 Speaker 1 You could call him on the phone or you could go into his office and, uh... I didn't do it often, but I'm saying occasionally.

51:40 Speaker 2 And you would just tell him your question?

51:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, and he would respond. He always responded. You never knew if his response was his own or the Rebbe's. You never ever-

51:48 Speaker 2 Did he respond on the spot?

51:50 Speaker 1 Yes, sometimes, and sometimes not. But whatever, or sometimes he would call you with, with, to, to, to ask you to do something. You didn't know whether that was his idea or the Rebbe suggested that. You had no way of knowing. He never s- he never, uh, let on.

52:05 Speaker 2 Right.

52:06 Speaker 1 So that's, that's the way it, that's the way it was.

52:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. It seems like by design it was like that.

52:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he, uh, he called me and for... He also, he had a, um, he had a grandson in Yeshiva, Yossi Chadikov, who's now in Florida someplace. His father was working in the post office. He wasn't home when school was over. So every day, Yossi would go into his grandfather's office. Can you imagine? His grandfather's room was the size of, you, you were ever in that room?

52:33 Speaker 2 No, but someone mentioned it to me the other day. I know it's a small room.

52:35 Speaker 1 Very small. So he would go in and, and he would tell his grandfather what's going on in Yeshiva. So based on that, I would get a call the next day. "Well, how about this? How about that?" Uh, for example, when Yossi told his, uh, Zayde, Rabbi Chadikov, that they were going on a trip the next day, he called me and he gave me 13 tips on what's important to worry about when you first of all count the children when they go on the bus, you know, you're bringing everybody back. Take, take, uh, extra yarmulkes if they blow out the window, because there was no air conditioning in those days.

53:07 Speaker 2 He's a practical man.

53:08 Speaker 1 Uh, make sure you have Band-Aids. If they get, if they get hurt on the way, they should have Band-Aids. And make su- I, you know-

53:14 Speaker 2 But I don't understand. He, he didn't think that you had thought about these things?

53:19 Speaker 1 I'm just, I don't know. This is-

53:21 Speaker 2 Interesting

53:21 Speaker 1 ... this is what it was.

53:22 Speaker 2 Right.

53:23 Speaker 1 He, um-

53:25 Speaker 2 Very interesting. I, I, I didn't know he was so deeply involved. I mean, why would I know? But I never even heard that he was so deeply involved in the school.

53:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. He would call me with various, uh, various ideas and things and, uh, Kibbud Av Va'em. Before Yom Tov, for example, he would always call me and tell me that, uh, we should talk to the children about Kibbud Av Va'em. If the parents will see that the school encourages the children to respect their parents, they'll, they'll, uh, support us. If they see we're supporting them, they'll support us.

53:57 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

53:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:59 Speaker 2 Interesting. Uh, 'cause that's not, that's, you talk about people thinking ahead of the game.

54:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's what he did.

54:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

54:09 Speaker 1 He, um-

54:12 Speaker 2 You, you need to have the parents buy in, essentially.

54:15 Speaker 1 Yes. It's very important in the school.

54:18 Speaker 2 Right.

54:18 Speaker 1 So in order to get parents, and I don't, that's not the only goal of Kibbud Av Va'em, but it's one of them. In order to get the parents to support you, your endeavors, if they see that the school is encouraging the children to respect them, you know, they're gonna-

54:33 Speaker 2 Right

54:33 Speaker 1 ... recip- reciprocate.

54:35 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Did he speak to you at all, you mentioned earlier this idea of positive teaching. Was that something he spoke to you about?

54:42 Speaker 1 No, no.

54:43 Speaker 2 He had any shitas about Chinuch like Bechalal or like he-

54:46 Speaker 1 He must have had, but he didn't tell me.

54:47 Speaker 2 Or did he share with you?

54:48 Speaker 1 He didn't, no. No.

54:49 Speaker 2 No.

54:49 Speaker 1 No. He must have had because he was a, um, s- a minister of education or something back in Latvia.

54:55 Speaker 2 Right.

54:55 Speaker 1 So he must have had some, but.

54:57 Speaker 2 So there was a story you shared with me the other time about, uh, about the buses that I think illustrates a little bit the generational, and I think the Rebbe got involved also, right?

55:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. So they happened to be here on Brooklyn Avenue corner Eastern Parkway.

55:08 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

55:09 Speaker 1 There was a, there was a school bus, I think it was, that was for sale, a used bus. And Rabbi Michoel and Rabbi Rosenfeld were looking at it, examining it to buy for the school. And the Rebbe walked by, he would walk by himself those days, and asked them what they're looking at, and they told him. So the Rebbe told them, "How can you buy a b- how... The mothers will never allow their children to ride on such a bus."

55:34 Speaker 2 It was, it was, it was-

55:35 Speaker 1 I guess it wasn't in good shape

55:36 Speaker 2 ... it was very used.

55:37 Speaker 1 It was very used. He says, "Today you gotta buy a bus that the, that the mothers will be happy to send their children on."

55:44 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

55:45 Speaker 1 Something to that effect. Rabbi Rosenfeld would tell it to me. I don't know exactly the words, but that was the point, that you can't buy an old, old jalopy, they used to call these, these cars those days, you know, banged up and, and it has to be nice and presentable, you know.

56:00 Speaker 2 It's very, it's very interesting. I mean, it's like- People, people see in many ways Oholei Torah is like a throwback school, uh, you know, to, to how things used to be. But when you go back to the origins of, of the school, you know, yes, the person who was founded it, the Rebbe Michoel, uh, was a very old world, old, old school person. But you're saying here that Rabbi Halikov and the Rebbe and Rabbi Rosenfeld, I- the whole-

56:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes

56:28 Speaker 2 ... the, the, the, I mean, not so much. I mean, Rabbi Halikov and the, and the Rebbe are both advocating that the school, you know-

56:36 Speaker 1 Yeah

56:36 Speaker 2 ... modernize in, at least in the way that, like-

56:39 Speaker 1 Be acceptable to American parents.

56:41 Speaker 2 Right. And function-

56:41 Speaker 1 Even though there weren't so many American parents at the time, 'cause most of the parents were, uh, Russian, European, and-

56:47 Speaker 2 But that the school be functional.

56:49 Speaker 1 Yes. Absolutely

56:49 Speaker 2 The school be functional.

56:51 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

56:52 Speaker 2 If... Well, what, what in general do you think about this? Because there's a tension there, obviously, where-

56:57 Speaker 1 Which by the way, the Rebbe also looked ahead. We're talking about the Rebbe looking ahead. The Rebbe wanted the t- the building to eventually become Oholei Torah's building.

57:08 Speaker 2 Which building? The, the one you're in now?

57:09 Speaker 1 67 Eastern Parkway, the Brooklyn Jewish Center. So while it was still the Brooklyn Jewish Center, the Rebbe called in Herschel Hitrik and, and asked him to become a member of the Brooklyn Jewish Center Conservative Temple, together with Judah Krinsky.

57:26 Speaker 2 Right. I-

57:26 Speaker 1 And nobody should know that he told them to do that.

57:30 Speaker 2 Right. I heard this story.

57:32 Speaker 1 He told him himself, and so he became a member, and, and he was also a wealthy Yid, and he was influential, and he was on their board of trustees. So when it came time for us to buy it, we had, we had somebody inside, you know, you know, um, batting for us. It was a-

57:47 Speaker 2 Right

57:48 Speaker 1 The Rebbe also told him, uh, there was a time towards the end when they didn't... They used to give out a, a, a bulletin, they called it, um, uh, several times a year, and it had information about the upcoming holidays, Yomim Tovim, and some other articles, whatever they had in it. But they didn't have any more money, and they were gonna cease publication of this. So the Rebbe told, called in Herschel Hitrik and told him that he should give ten thousand dollars to the Brooklyn Jewish Center to be able to continue printing their, uh, the bulletin. He was hesitant, you know, "If he's gonna give ten thousand dollars tzedakah, I don't wanna give it to Brooklyn Jewish Center. Give it to some holier cause."

58:30 Speaker 2 Right.

58:31 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe told him, "If you don't give it, I'm gonna give it."

58:35 Speaker 2 Do you know why the Rebbe was sure?

58:36 Speaker 1 Because I, I'm sure because in there it had a little bit about Pesach and a little bit about Hanukkah. Otherwise, these people who read that bulletin and got it in the mail don't even heard of Hanukkah, at least they know you're supposed to light menorah.

58:47 Speaker 2 Menorah, actually

58:47 Speaker 1 I'm guessing. It, it was, it was not a Frum bulletin, but it was at least some Yiddish guide in there. There was something there which would remind people, wherever those people were.

58:57 Speaker 2 But you're saying that the Rebbe had his, his sights on the, on the-

59:00 Speaker 1 So-

59:01 Speaker 2 ... on the building

59:01 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe wanted, why did the Rebbe want Hitrik to be in there? Because we should be able to get it when the time comes.

59:09 Speaker 2 Wow!

59:10 Speaker 1 Why else would he want him to be in there?

59:12 Speaker 2 Right. Was there a point where you, where you began to realize that you were, that you were onto something? That you were, that you were, you know, the, the school's taking off. It's no longer a small cheder.

59:25 Speaker 1 Yes, and I'll tell you when in a moment, but I wanna say something else, that the, the, the Rebbe was also involved in, in, in s- in the following way. In starting from Tov Shin Mem Dalet, maybe before, when Sivis Hashem started, the Rebbe would have rallies with the children each month and suggest to them how they should, um, fight the Yetzer Hara during that month in, in the way Abraham Avinu did, in the way Isaac did, in the way Jacob did, through Chesed, through Torah, through Tefillah, and so on. And in Yeshiva, in that month, we had to make programs and, and, and, um, exciting contests and various things to get the kids involved in that.

1:00:03 Speaker 2 Every month, the Rebbe was-

1:00:04 Speaker 1 In the beginning, for a year or two, it was every month.

1:00:07 Speaker 2 So Rebbe would have a rally and speak about it

1:00:08 Speaker 1 Rebbe would have a rally. Before Pesach, he had w- he started what was called the Matzo Ball Contest.

1:00:12 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:13 Speaker 1 So helping your m- your mother at home, clean for Pesach. So the Rebbe i, in that way, became involved also. As far as when did I feel this, um-

1:00:22 Speaker 2 Was it difficult to run a school where every month you have to come up with a-

1:00:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, it wasn't easy. Yeah. You had to, uh, because you didn't know exactly what the Rebbe would say, and then suddenly, uh, tomorrow morning you gotta be on the job already.

1:00:32 Speaker 2 So does-

1:00:33 Speaker 1 The Rebbe always wanted things right away

1:00:34 Speaker 2 Did it make the school on wheels in a way or?

1:00:36 Speaker 1 No. It, it helped the school. It encouraged, it made a lot of excitement and inspiration, but, um, but for the people like myself who had to prepare all the materials-

1:00:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:46 Speaker 1 ... um, all the Sefer Hamitzvahs, had to prepare stuff so that the teachers could teach it. Um, but what happened is like this. In, when I came into Oholei Torah, Oholei Torah was like a pyramid, meaning that the first four grades or five had two classes on each, two parallel classes on each level, and then only one, and with only a half a class.

1:01:13 Speaker 2 As you got older

1:01:14 Speaker 1 Starting from grade five or six.

1:01:16 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:16 Speaker 1 Why was this? Because the Rebbe had, uh, once said when he spoke about, uh, um, you know, Oholei Torah, he had said, um, encouraged it to be until the age of nine.

1:01:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:01:29 Speaker 1 And, um, so nine years old is about that age, so a lot of, uh, you know, we have such an intense, uh, uh, the Modikai de Shoshiva. The Rebbe had once mentioned something about age nine. But after two, three years, it changed, and people stopped taking their children out and stopped leaving.

1:01:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

1:01:49 Speaker 1 Which may have been either because, um, the island became more Hasidish and more interested in doing what the Rebbe wants, or probably also because of the fact that I made it into Yeshiva. People were, were satisfied to be, to have their children to go to such a school. It wasn't a sh- it wasn't just the Heimish Shtiebel, it was a school. It was a Yeshiva.

1:02:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:11 Speaker 1 So, and, and then after that, nobody was leaving, going anywheres. There were two classes and then three, then four, then five, parallel all the way up.

1:02:20 Speaker 2 Right. So you're saying that's when you went-

1:02:21 Speaker 1 So, so when I saw that were happening, that that was happening, I realized that then it was successful in that sense.

1:02:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay, it's-- I mean, you're talking about the, the, you know, the making, making a seder in Ohel Torah, which maybe came from other schools that you were in. You, you also mentioned the, a story to me last time about your mother with Bikkurei Ha'ir, you know, the, with the Rebbe involved, ask- s- telling them to involve Hungarian.

1:02:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:02:52 Speaker 2 You know, maybe, maybe you'll share that story and, and-

1:02:55 Speaker 1 I didn't know that story then, but this she told me much later on. But, um, so my mother, uh, was involved in Bikkur- before she was involved, there was, um, Mrs. Klopman and, um, maybe Mrs. Mintz, I think, was the one asked-

1:03:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:11 Speaker 1 ... who asked the Rebbe, uh, what to do to get, to get the Bikkurei Ha'ir to be-- It was becoming needed. It was a big

1:03:20 Speaker 2 Of Crown Heights

1:03:21 Speaker 1 ... but, uh, of Crown Heights, but it was, it was floundering, the organization. What should they do? So the Rebbe told them to hire, to get, uh, to hire, to, to take three Hungarian ladies and put them in charge, and they'll build it up. And that-

1:03:36 Speaker 2 Why?

1:03:36 Speaker 1 Because they do in Bikkurei Ha'ir, you see, in Southbury, in Williamsburg, Bikkurei Ha'ir is a big thing by them.

1:03:42 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:42 Speaker 1 So you had Mrs. Steinmetz, and you had Mrs., um, um, what was his name? The tall guy who built the first seven seventy. Klein.

1:03:52 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:03:53 Speaker 1 And my mother. Those were the three Hungarians.

1:03:55 Speaker 2 Mrs., Mrs. Lustig. Now, I, I, I ask you to share that story because it's, it's, it's, you know, there's, there's, uh, I- I'm not, I'm not here to make fun of it, but there, there's, uh, we'll leave that for another time, possibly. But, you know, there, there's a strain of, of Spitz Chabad, you know, that has to be, uh, you know, the, the, we, you know, we're the best and there's nothing to learn from -

1:04:18 Speaker 1 From anybody

1:04:19 Speaker 2 ... from anybody else

1:04:19 Speaker 1 But you see also when the, the Rebbe would tell, um, people in the working with educating the girls to learn from Beis Yaakov as far as tznius goes.

1:04:27 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:28 Speaker 1 He-- when he saw something good elsewhere, he said, "Learn from it."

1:04:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:32 Speaker 1 You know?

1:04:32 Speaker 2 So you, so you have your, your mother being involved in Bikkurei Ha'ir because the, you could see that these other communities, I think similar to what we said earlier, you know, the, when the, when people have a focus on something, it, it leads to results, right?

1:04:46 Speaker 1 That's what the lady, what does a lady in Williamsburg have? She doesn't do much time. She doesn't speak any words with-

1:04:51 Speaker 2 I get you, much time. It's this

1:04:52 Speaker 1 That's her thing.

1:04:52 Speaker 2 This is her much time

1:04:53 Speaker 1 That's her much time

1:04:54 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:54 Speaker 1 That's her much time. And anybody who goes to any hospital in New York, uh, and maybe other cities as well, knows what they do. It's fantastic. You know, you get, you get meals and you get-

1:05:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:05:04 Speaker 1 Uh-

1:05:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, somebody, a friend of mine once explained to me once, he was telling me this story how they, he was with the Hasidish guy, and the Hasidish guy wanted to, to buy him like a, wanted to buy him a, a croissant or something for, for breakfast. He's like, "I don't eat." And then he realized that, like, this, this Hasidish guy's buying him a croissant the way he puts on to somebody-

1:05:23 Speaker 1 That's right

1:05:23 Speaker 2 ... in a store, right?

1:05:25 Speaker 1 Exactly. Collect- collecting Tzedakah for people who need and giving, and Bikkurei Ha'ir, that's their-

1:05:30 Speaker 2 Right. And so, like, I, I, it's, you know, it, it's not a matter of better or worse. It's a matter that, you know, the, the-

1:05:37 Speaker 1 Different people focus on different things

1:05:38 Speaker 2 There's, there's, there's 12 Shvatim. There's different kinds of, uh, what does the Gemara say or the Medrash say about the leaves and the, and the, and the, and the fruit. And there's all kinds of Eden with all kinds of Ma'alas. Everybody has their, their path.

1:05:51 Speaker 1 That's right

1:05:52 Speaker 2 So, you know, it makes sense that some people would focus on this and excel at this as well

1:05:57 Speaker 1 They tell the story, um, I don't know if it's exactly true or exactly what happened, but one of the, they say that the Tzelem HaLev, who was, uh, one of the first people involved in kashrus in America, of course, uh, uh, cholov Yisroel milk and, um, and kosher wine and whatever else, uh, told the Friediker Rebbe that he was, um, concerned that maybe Lubavitch would start doing it. I'm not sure exactly. The Rebbe said to him something to the effect of, "Your, your job is to, um, uh, to make sure there's kosher food available for the people we're gonna make, people should want kosher food. We're gonna find you the people that are gonna want it-

1:06:37 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:37 Speaker 1 ... create people who want it, and you have to provide it."

1:06:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, basically, we're gonna spend money so you can make money.

1:06:42 Speaker 1 No, we're, we're gonna run a shul-

1:06:43 Speaker 2 The story of Lubavitch

1:06:44 Speaker 1 ... that's gonna bring in people who-

1:06:45 Speaker 2 I know. I'm kidding

1:06:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:06:46 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:06:47 Speaker 1 Yeah, and that, that was the soul of Lubavitch, always the focus is spreading Yiddishkeit.

1:06:52 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:53 Speaker 1 And like you said earlier, earlier on, it's just, it, that's the main focus here. So you can't do everything.

1:06:59 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:00 Speaker 1 People can't, can't, uh-

1:07:02 Speaker 2 No, but it's just-

1:07:02 Speaker 1 ... tear themselves apart like that.

1:07:04 Speaker 2 Right. No, so it's interesting that, like, uh, this, like you saw your mother bringing her influence into, or her, her-

1:07:11 Speaker 1 But she also had another thing, which, uh, uh, although she didn't necessarily say that, but I, I think that it was inherent in what she did. In the camps, in Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen, the, the girls or the inmates in, or if you call them inmates, whatever they were, uh, survived basically by helping each other.

1:07:30 Speaker 2 Right. Sure

1:07:31 Speaker 1 By being there for each other. She used to tell stories about that when she would talk about it in, in various groups. So Bikkurei Ha'ir was right up that alley, you know? Um, helping somebody else and caring for somebody else and assisting somebody. She knew that that was what kept her, what saved her.

1:07:50 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:51 Speaker 1 She was helped, and she helped others.

1:07:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:54 Speaker 1 Um, like for example, she would tell the story that, uh, one of the things they had to do was they were given, the girls, they were given, um, the Nazis gave them some kind of yarn to make, I'm not sure, carpets or curtains, and they had to... It was for some military use. I'm not sure exactly what the purpose was. And everybody got a certain quota how much they had to produce. If you didn't reach your quota Uh, you, you know, you, you, you, you may have to pay for it with your life. They had g- armed guards standing all around watching. So, but not everybody's equally skilled or equally fast. Some people do things and quickly, and some people take their time, takes them longer.

1:08:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:36 Speaker 1 So my mother describes them, and she would finish. She wo- she worked fast. I mean, she would see another girl who, who wasn't finished, and she's not gonna finish her quota, it's gonna be a problem soon. So they would watch. When the guards weren't watching, they would quickly switch places. Even they knew that was , 'cause if you got caught doing that, that was the end of you. But she went there to the other girl's place, finished it for her. In the lines, in, in this, uh, Im Achshav Mai, Dr. Mengele's lines, you had to be on the right or on the left. The right was to live, and the le- left was to die. She was on the left, and she got to the right 'cause people helped her sneak into that line. Everything, on and on, there were stories where, where the only way that they survived was by helping each other. So that became really part of her.

1:09:22 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah, look, I mean, the, the, the story of Yidden, um, su- surviving and just all these stories, that they're, they, they have so much to offer in terms of what the, the richness that they provide to, to the people who benefit from them. Um, you know, in many cases, sadly, from tragic, from tragic history. But so people like your mother, I, I don't know how they did it, took their tragedy and turned it into some kind of positive story. Yeah. And, and, and like the idea that you, that there isn't what to learn from these people and isn't what to gain from these people is, is, is, it doesn't make sense to me. And so, you know, it's interesting to see that like a, a school like Alter, like people say an Alter Rebbe, it doesn't get more Lubavitch than an Alter Rebbe, right? Then you f- you find out that the influence of Alter in many ways is coming from different places.

1:10:18 Speaker 1 True.

1:10:18 Speaker 2 You know, y- I, I still think you could say Yesh Das Avare Koish. These people are Yidden, and it's comes from traditions and so on.

1:10:24 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

1:10:25 Speaker 2 And, you know, you're talking about Rabbi Chadikov being involved, and where do you think that came from? But, you know, he, the, the old Chassid in Russia's like, "Why do I need a new school bus?" And he, it makes sense in his world. A- and they're always saying you have to think about the parents who are in America.

1:10:39 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was, was always thinking ahead.

1:10:40 Speaker 2 You know, people in America, you can't expect from them-

1:10:42 Speaker 1 Twenty, twenty-five, fifty years ahead

1:10:43 Speaker 2 ... You think it was ahead? It wasn't for that time?

1:10:46 Speaker 1 Y- you're right, it's for that time also. But even if it's, the Rebbe was always thinking, "This, this bus isn't gonna last very long." It's not what ultimately-

1:10:53 Speaker 2 I see

1:10:53 Speaker 1 ... these buildings and ev- everything Rebbe always... You see from, from the answers throughout the years to the shluchim to build larger and bigger and better. Don't, don't, uh, you know.

1:11:03 Speaker 2 What surprises you most, uh, what surprises you most about what happened th- with Alter being involved in it for so many years? You look back at it, what, what, what surprises you most when you look back at it?

1:11:14 Speaker 1 Surprises? I don't know what you mean.

1:11:16 Speaker 2 Well, what, uh, that you didn't expect. Is there something, you know... You're, you're probably every day just making sure every- the, that, that the c- classes are running on time and so on.

1:11:25 Speaker 1 Well-

1:11:26 Speaker 2 When you look back at it, what-

1:11:27 Speaker 1 You could say r- r- the, the issue becomes today, w- like I told you, we, uh, we, we inspired our talmidim to wanna grow up to be shluchim. That was the ultimate goal.

1:11:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:39 Speaker 1 It is unfortunately not so available today anymore.

1:11:42 Speaker 2 To be on shlichus?

1:11:43 Speaker 1 Yes. It's hard to find and, um, and if, unless you wanna be a teacher, then that is easier, a little bit easier. It's more available, but shlichus, shlichus is hard to find because everybody, there's the head shliach, and, uh, you know, he has his, his children and his nephews and his, uh, grandchildren, and it's hard for somebody just who has no, no connections to anyone to, to become a shliach. It's very difficult today. It used to be you had to just work on yourself to wanna go.

1:12:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:16 Speaker 1 Your father went to Hong Kong, it was not easy, I'm sure-

1:12:19 Speaker 2 Right

1:12:19 Speaker 1 ... to go to. But, but today, there's no such thing anymore.

1:12:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:23 Speaker 1 So the question is, Chinuch today has to be nuanced a little bit. We have to, we have to go back to telling the children, uh, that, uh, Chafetz Hayyim is like the Friediker Rebbe would say, around you, in your dalor am is people you work with, people you daven with, people who live near you, your neighbors, whoever it is, that you have to get them to be stronger in Yiddishkeit, in learning and davening. Whether you're gonna be able to go out and be a shliach, possibly yes, but possibly no. You can't make that as the only... That if you didn't, if you went through all the and you came to the end, you finished the system, and you couldn't find the shlichus, that you're a failure. You're not a failure. That's, things change, you know? The world is not, uh, not the same anymore.

1:13:06 Speaker 2 Right. Interesting.

1:13:09 Speaker 1 I know they, they struggle with it in and in other places. Uh, uh, we're always telling the children, "Shlichus, shlichus, shlichus," but then they can't. They come to the end, and they can't find one.

1:13:19 Speaker 2 Chinuch is interesting in that regard because on one hand, Chinuch is about transmitting the past, right? This is a tradition from Amalek and so on, you know, all the way back to Har Sinai. On the other hand, you're being, you're educating people for the future.

1:13:34 Speaker 1 Correct.

1:13:35 Speaker 2 Right? And so what you're saying here is that if you're gonna educate children today from the past of what they did 20 years ago, but they're growing up today-

1:13:43 Speaker 1 It's not gonna work

1:13:44 Speaker 2 ... it's not gonna work. So Chinuch, a- a- again, that, that whole thing of Rabbi Chadikov and even the Rebbe's involvement where you have to think about the future.