Ep. 91 // "Where Are Today's Baal Teshuvas?" w/ Rabbi Ronnie Fine

00:00 Speaker 1 I can be compelled by my mind and heart to do a mitzvah, or I can be compelled by a sense of identity, and that's what brings me to the mitzvah. So the seventies, sixties, seventies, whatever, people were compelled more by the mind and, and that which led to their heart, a passion to do the mitzvah. Now they're compelled by etzem, which is identity, which is deeper.

00:29 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-six. My name is Benzia Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty, we are here in Montreal in... What's this area called?

00:51 Speaker 1 It's called, uh, Cote Des Neiges.

00:53 Speaker 2 Cote Des Neiges.

00:54 Speaker 1 Queen Mary.

00:55 Speaker 2 Cote Des Neiges, Queen Mary, with Rabbi Ronnie Fine. I thank you very much. Good morning to you.

01:00 Speaker 1 Good morning. Pleasure.

01:02 Speaker 2 Thank you for coming on. And before we begin, for all those listening to this podcast and enjoy this podcast, please like and subscribe on the various platforms. And if you really like this podcast, please support the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Rabbi Fine, let's begin from the beginning of the story, and I know that always puts people in a bit of a lurch because where exactly does the story begin?

01:27 Speaker 1 Mm.

01:28 Speaker 2 But, uh, how about you just give us, uh, the broad, the broad strokes of where you grew up and what kind of, what kind of, what kind of, uh, atmosphere you grew up in?

01:40 Speaker 1 I'm born in Israel, but after two months, uh, my parents left. Raised in Toronto in a very secular home, but very Jewish, you know, Israel-oriented. Always felt very Jewishly connected, but didn't mean anything. Didn't translate into anything real. And, uh, until one day in high school, someone who was, uh, became r-religious themselves comes up to me in the library during a, uh, spare, during free time. I'm reading the newspaper, probably the sports section, I would imagine. And he says to me, "If you died right now, what would you say your life is worth? What'd you accomplish?" Well, he knew I was a tennis player and, uh, so you know.

02:33 Speaker 2 That's a, that's a interesting way to start off a conversation.

02:35 Speaker 1 Exactly. Especially my relationship till then was, "Hello, how are you? Goodbye," basically, you know.

02:42 Speaker 2 This guy was... There was something off with him?

02:45 Speaker 1 He's, uh, extremely intelligent. Um, e-extremely, um, insightful. So insightful that with me he made, he, he made that comment, not to others.

03:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

03:01 Speaker 1 I laughed him off like, what a kind of crazy individual is this, like you just said. And then I, uh, engaged him in conversation. Very brilliant. He had arguments for the belief in God, the Torah from, uh, from Sinai and everything. I didn't have, uh, comebacks. I figured he must've read a good book, and I need the rebuttal. So I took his arguments.

03:25 Speaker 2 Wait, you were, you were an atheist? You were-

03:27 Speaker 1 I wasn't an atheist. I was... No.

03:29 Speaker 2 Okay.

03:29 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say I was an atheist.

03:30 Speaker 2 Just a teenager.

03:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. It, it, it, it wasn't negeah. It wa- it didn't concern me. What concerned me was being Jewish, for whatever reason. I felt very strong and proud.

03:41 Speaker 2 Oh, you want-- You were positive in that regard?

03:43 Speaker 1 Oh, uh, totally positive. Absolutely. But as far as, you know, Torah from Sinai, you know, that was not part of the lexicon.

03:53 Speaker 2 Right.

03:54 Speaker 1 And he introduced it, and with solid, you know, arguments. I took his arguments and I debated other people, including my mother, Reform rabbis, Reconstructionist rabbis, and I saw one thing across the board. They, they were pushed in the corner. They didn't have real answers, so they just gave answers, you know, in order to kind of suit, um, their, their perspective in life. It wasn't like, you know, something really thought through and something that's real, real, and that was clear. Again, I wasn't, it wasn't coming from an observant position. It was just observing people and how they weren't real. They weren't honest. And that led me to other people to engage with and so on, that finally, uh, someone connected with me. Not a Chabadnik, but a very sincere individual. Said, "You know what? If you want to go to yeshiva, I'll send you off to yeshiva and I'll pay for you." Well, he had to pay for me because my parents weren't interested.

05:03 Speaker 2 One second, one second. Who was this Chabadnik?

05:06 Speaker 1 Not a Chabadnik.

05:07 Speaker 2 Oh.

05:07 Speaker 1 He wasn't a Chabad.

05:08 Speaker 2 He wasn't-

05:08 Speaker 1 He had a k- again, Shlomo Murnik, alav ha-shalom.

05:11 Speaker 2 Just a Jew in Toronto.

05:13 Speaker 1 A Jew in Toronto, connected with, uh, Ner Yisroel in Toronto.

05:17 Speaker 2 And you were part of an organization?

05:19 Speaker 1 No.

05:19 Speaker 2 How did you get matched with him?

05:20 Speaker 1 I met a f- through one thing led to another, meeting, you know, friends of this friend of mine, Larry. Um, met others and just got involved in some m- you know, people that were more involved in Yiddishkeit. Then it led me to this guy who actually, uh, himself became a rabbi. Uh, at the time he was single. And, uh, he offered to send me off to yeshiva. This is, we're talking about taf shin lamed hei, nineteen seventy-five.

05:50 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. He did this for other people? Is it, is this a thing?

05:55 Speaker 1 He did, I, I was one of the first, but he did it for other people. Yeah.

05:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

06:01 Speaker 1 So-

06:01 Speaker 2 And he was single at the time?

06:02 Speaker 1 He was single at the time. And I went to my parents and told them that I'm gonna go to yeshiva. My mother broke down and cried.

06:10 Speaker 2 Really?

06:11 Speaker 1 She's Israeli. She has a brother who was actually a . Uh, he came from. And, um-

06:20 Speaker 2 So she know-

06:21 Speaker 1 Actually was a, was-

06:21 Speaker 2 She knew where this, she knew where this ends up.

06:24 Speaker 1 She-- His chavrusa was, uh, Rabbi Dov Schwartzman, alav hashalom, who, uh, was the aidim of Aharon Kotler. So she knew from that world very well and, uh, that's not a world she wanted, you know. We're talking about Israelis, you know.

06:41 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:42 Speaker 1 Uh, way back in the, the founding of, uh, of Israel.

06:46 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's still kinda like that over there.

06:48 Speaker 1 Mm, no, it's changed tremendously. Uh, tremendously. But in any case, when I told them that they were, you know, kind of devastated, but I knew that there was truth there that I had to seek out. If I'm not gonna seek it out, I won't be, uh, I won't be honest, authentic to myself. Talking about I'm seventeen, eighteen, uh, I turned eighteen at that time. Um, I went to Israel, Ohr Someach. At that time, most of the people in Ohr Someach were picked up at the, at the Kosel, at the wall, uh, to come and learn there. I was one of the few that actually came to go to learn there at that time. And, um, I did, did quite well in my learning. And h- what-- Divine Providence, Hashgacha Protis, because I'm Israeli, so I had a deferment from the army for a year, but then I had to leave. And because I left, uh, Ohr Someach, I came back to Toronto, I learned in Ner Yisroel. And in Ner Yisroel, I met Rabbi Ezra Shochat, who was at the time there, the Rosh from, uh, California, from LA.

08:09 Speaker 2 He was teaching there?

08:10 Speaker 1 His father had just passed away. He got kinda stuck in, uh, in Toronto. He was in, uh, Ner Yisroel. He was, uh, rosh of a yeshiva in the second Seder.

08:20 Speaker 2 So just married or something?

08:23 Speaker 1 He was already married a f-- No, he was married a f- a few years earlier.

08:26 Speaker 2 Just, just married.

08:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

08:27 Speaker 2 Just married and starting out.

08:29 Speaker 1 So, uh, he had a chabura of guys. He had a bunch of guys that he learned Chassidis with.

08:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

08:34 Speaker 1 I learned Chassidis with him. So this is, um, after about o-over a year now of being in yeshiva and learning, and learning well and having a hatslacha, success in the learning. And, um, learning Chassidis, I saw something that was a little unique and different. And as a result, I decided that I was gonna go to Lubavitch Yeshiva. It was a bit of a problem, actually, because, uh-

09:04 Speaker 2 What, what do you mean by different, first of all? What do you mean by different?

09:07 Speaker 1 What do I mean by different? That's a good question. The truth is, m-my neshamah felt it at that time. I can't say that in-- I understood it then. Now I could explain what, what took place, what took place then. Um, at the time, though, I just knew that it, it just spoke deeper to the person, to the neshamah. It wasn't merely about do's and don'ts and the understanding of the do's and don'ts of, of, uh, Yiddishkeit, which that itself is important, to reveal parts of the, of the Torah, but to appreciate the soul of, of the Torah, to appreciate your own soul, the soul of creation, if you will. Um, that's what led me to realize that there's something more that was lacking there.

09:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:00 Speaker 1 And I-- Lacking. I was doing extremely well. Uh, had no reason to go. Looking back-

10:07 Speaker 2 Mm

10:07 Speaker 1 ...it's clearly that the rebbeim, the rebbes, they choose the neshamas who are going to be Chassidim. That's clear, because there's-- It doesn't make sense that I left.

10:18 Speaker 2 You left Ner Yisroel.

10:19 Speaker 1 That I left Ner Yisroel. Does not make sense at all that I should leave because of the success that I was having there.

10:26 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company that I have run for close to ten years. Today, Yuvala Media works with organizations all around the country, bringing their stories to life in a way that is both meaningful and memorable. Whether it's a video for a milestone dinner, an online fundraiser, or a building campaign, we begin each project with the same question: What does your audience need to know about you to feel more connected to your cause? Once we answer that question, we tailor-make a video that best addresses this need. Over the years, we have built a reputation for top-of-the-line visuals while also being responsive and reliable. As one of our clients put it, "A combination of technical excellence and real heart." If you are looking to make a video for an upcoming dinner, fundraiser, or building campaign, please reach out to us to schedule a fifteen-minute phone call to see if we can make something beautiful together. Email us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the show. Why did you go to this yeshiva in the first place? Just, just curiosity?

11:32 Speaker 1 Probably. Wh-why did I debate Larry in the first place? And I'll ju-- I laughed him off first.

11:38 Speaker 2 No, no.

11:38 Speaker 1 Why did I, uh, why was-

11:40 Speaker 2 That's what teenagers do

11:40 Speaker 1 ...I was open, okay. I was open-minded. I was-

11:42 Speaker 2 As teenagers do

11:43 Speaker 1 ...I was still a teenager. I was nineteen years old.

11:45 Speaker 2 Fair. So but I'm saying you were looking, you were s- you were looking to debate. You were just cu-- you, you were open to ideas. You, you liked the Rosh.

11:56 Speaker 1 Good question. You know what? Actually, prob-probably who I became close with was a Ger Hasid, who was a little older than me, he was a bachur. Um, and with him, I used to farbreng a lot And he opened me up, you know, through Ger Hasidus, Sfas Emes, Chidesh Harim, and, uh-

12:19 Speaker 2 He was in the yeshiva too.

12:20 Speaker 1 He was in the yeshiva too. He was a Torontonian, and he was in the yeshiva. And, uh, probably a little bit from hi-- um, for sure from him. Remember we were talking about this is nineteen seventy-six, so this is fifty years ago.

12:33 Speaker 2 Right. Was this shi-

12:36 Speaker 1 Tell me definitely

12:37 Speaker 2 ... wa-was this shiur of the Rosh, was it, uh, was it, like, uh, was it, was it kosher from the yeshiva standpoint, or was it, like, uh, undercover?

12:45 Speaker 1 It was undercover.

12:47 Speaker 2 Oh, that's-

12:47 Speaker 1 Thursday night it was-

12:48 Speaker 2 That's why you went.

12:48 Speaker 1 Ah.

12:50 Speaker 2 That's, uh, that's probably why you went.

12:53 Speaker 1 The Toronto community, so much of it was from that shiur, from the Bochurim that were in Eretz Israel at that time.

13:00 Speaker 2 Really?

13:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. S-Steiner, Rosenzweig, Lifton, and, uh, and others.

13:05 Speaker 2 What was the yeshiva thinking, bringing this Lubavitcher? Because he, he, he was openly a Lubavitcher at that time, no?

13:12 Speaker 1 He learned in Brisk, so he's openly a Lubavitcher.

13:15 Speaker 2 His brothers-

13:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, he, he-

13:16 Speaker 2 They already were involved, his, him and his brothers were-

13:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, they, of course they were. His, his parents too. But, uh, he learned in Brisk in Ere-in Eretz Israel, so you know, and he's a Talmid Chacham.

13:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's no question.

13:29 Speaker 1 You know, so whatever. The truth is, there was undercover Lubavitchers there too. There was a, a, a wine stock. There was a Makarov. I, I forget the Bochur's name. And I was once, uh, I was taken by s-by Sichas, and we were learning upstairs during Seder. I was learning a, I think it was a Rashi Sicha, if I'm not mistaken. And, um, the, the Rosh Yeshiva came and saw me, Rabbi Hochman, uh, and he got so upset. He said, "In the middle of Seder?" And they looked me. And, uh, so, and, and it was the Ro-

14:11 Speaker 2 What did the Ro-- I-I only ask you, what did the Rosh learn with you? Tanya? Was it the, the Likutei Torah? Do you remember?

14:16 Speaker 1 It wasn't, I... It wasn't inside.

14:18 Speaker 2 It wasn't inside.

14:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, we didn't have a Sefer that we followed. Uh, it was probably on the Parsha or just in Yanai of Hasidus, so, you know, were fascinating. Uh, enough that I realized that there's something more that's lacking in where I am right now.

14:34 Speaker 2 Huh.

14:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then when I decided to leave, first I was thinking, uh, uh, decided to leave. I was gonna go to Miami to Rab- uh, Leib Shapiro. Uh, I had to sneak out of the yeshiva 'cause he was concerned that, oh, because of him, someone went to Lubavitch.

15:00 Speaker 2 HaRashofat was concerned.

15:01 Speaker 1 He was concerned. So I ma-I make a Viyachad. I was going to Borough Park to check out a yeshiva there. In the meantime, I actually went to the, to Crown Heights. And, and then from there, I went to, to Miami to learn in yeshiva.

15:17 Speaker 2 What was Crown Heights like for you? This is the first time you're going to Crown Heights?

15:21 Speaker 1 No, actually, I went befo- I actually went to a Pegisha before going to Eretz Israel. Before I went to Eretz Israel, um, December nineteen seventy-four, I went to the Pegisha. And when the Bochurim found out that I was going to Eretz Israel, oh, did they try everything that they could that I should go to Morristown.

15:41 Speaker 2 And you, you weren't interested. You, you had it, you had it figured out.

15:45 Speaker 1 First of all, I'm going to Israel.

15:46 Speaker 2 Right.

15:46 Speaker 1 You know, go to Morristown.

15:49 Speaker 2 Right. Where's that?

15:49 Speaker 1 Whatever that is.

15:50 Speaker 2 Where's that? Yeah.

15:54 Speaker 1 Um, yeah.

15:57 Speaker 2 So what was the Pegisha like?

16:00 Speaker 1 A Pegisha?

16:00 Speaker 2 Well, what-- No, I know what the Pegisha was. It was like gr-uh, uh, the coming together of college students, right?

16:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. Exactly.

16:06 Speaker 2 This was in the early years of the... Uh, it started in the sixties, right?

16:09 Speaker 1 I think it started the end of the sixties, yeah. I'm not exactly-

16:13 Speaker 2 So it was one of the earlier ones.

16:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:14 Speaker 2 What was it like for you as a college student? Uh, what was your impression of it at the time, if you can separate it from how you retrospect of it after?

16:23 Speaker 1 I was definitely taken by it. Um-

16:26 Speaker 2 Not that much, though.

16:29 Speaker 1 I mean, not, not enough to change my plans. I was going a month later-

16:32 Speaker 2 Right

16:33 Speaker 1 ... to Eretz Israel.

16:34 Speaker 2 Right. But, uh, you know, like I wanna become a Lubavitcher.

16:37 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no. I didn't have that kind of experience. No, no, for sure not. Um, Solomon Posner was a great speaker. Um, I s-so I-

16:49 Speaker 2 Right

16:49 Speaker 1 ... I, I hung out with him a bit, you know, even when he wasn't officially speaking. Um, Dr. Block. Actually, I drove in from Toronto with Dr. Block. It was interesting. And who else? Those are the two that I recall. And the, the Bochurim that tried to, you know, in-influence me, inspire me. Actually, one even gave me Tefillin.

17:14 Speaker 2 You didn't have Tefillin yet at that time?

17:16 Speaker 1 I, I was... This was-

17:18 Speaker 2 Oh, you weren't in yeshiva yet?

17:19 Speaker 1 I wasn't in yeshiva yet. I wasn't, I wasn't, uh, I wasn't observant. I was just-

17:25 Speaker 2 But you knew you were going to yeshiva, so you were planning on buying Tefillin?

17:29 Speaker 1 At that time, I was going to-

17:29 Speaker 2 You were planning to buy Tef-- or you didn't even think about it?

17:30 Speaker 1 I'm not even talking about, well, I'm not thinking about Tefillin. It, it-

17:32 Speaker 2 You'll figure it out there.

17:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. It wa- It wasn't, it wasn't part of the equation. It, it wa- it was in the seventies, the sixties and seventies, people's in- finding Yiddishkeit was more than anything was-

17:50 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

17:52 Speaker 1 ... more than anything was a pursuit for truth, a pursuit for something greater than self. Today, I wouldn't say it's the s-- it's not the same. Now it's lifestyle. Today, people are seeking lifestyle, and they find it's a better lifestyle. But then it was more a pursuit of truth. Pursuit-

18:14 Speaker 2 You're saying idealistic?

18:15 Speaker 1 Time was more idealistic back in the day Which that's what the seven, you know, th- that era was, and that's what the Rebbe spoke about, about that era, the, the, the idealism of the era, and that, you know, it's a opportunity to, to hop to the minds and the hearts of young Jewish people. I was one of them.

18:36 Speaker 2 So you think, you think that's what... So I mean, it makes sense, the story where this, where this fellow is talking to you about what y- what your life would mean in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I, I don't know. I'm sure people are still having those kind of conversations now, but today it's more about efficiency. Like, how do you maximize your time, and how do you, how do you opti-

18:57 Speaker 1 Better quality of life

18:58 Speaker 2 How do you optimize your time and optimize your life? Not so much what would your life mean in the grand scheme of things.

19:03 Speaker 1 Right. Actually, today it's in, it's in a certain way, it's, it's more, it's more, to me, is it's deeper in a way because it's about quality of life, and people recognize that leading a Jewish life is the best quality there is.

19:18 Speaker 2 Interesting. You're saying that, uh, well, you could say that i- idealism, idealism does have a, a, a flaw or has a shortcoming where it's pie in the sky.

19:33 Speaker 1 Right.

19:33 Speaker 2 You get carried away with the big questions. It's, you know, it's, it's very romantic. It's like, you know, the hippies had, you know, love and all kinds of other grand things figured out, but, you know, God help us if they had to make their bed or-

19:48 Speaker 1 Right

19:48 Speaker 2 ... you know, sweep, sweep the floor. Like, and their life was a mess, but they had the big... You know, so there, there's something about, about, you know, idealism does have a shortcoming where you get carried away with, with big, big questions. Uh, uh, you know, I think similarly, going off on a tangent here, but similarly, I think, uh, Chassidus also has that, that pitfall. I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it has to be, but it's a pitfall where, you know, you get carried away talking about and so on. And, you know, y- that's, that's wonderful, and that's a macro story for sure, but on the day-to-day, life is a lot more, um, grounded and, and, and, uh, I don't know if the word's banal, but you know, uh, regular almost.

20:41 Speaker 1 Mundane.

20:42 Speaker 2 Right, mundane.

20:43 Speaker 1 Right.

20:44 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

20:44 Speaker 1 Right.

20:45 Speaker 2 You have the and, you know, talking about like all the big... It's talk- It's hitting all the notes at the top, and then this is the last memoir that the goes out, right? And, uh, it's, the Rebbe saw it very clearly as his last will and testament. And, and what does, what does, what, what does the memoir end off with? Uh, doing business honestly, with a minion. You know, like, wait, all that for this? Yeah. I... You know, so it's interesting.

21:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. You're, you're right. Um, when it comes to Chassidus, it could be left as very abstract. Um, and of course, we need to translate it into something that is personally meaningful, and that brings us to another mitzvah. Uh, absolutely. But that, uh, can at times be a challenge, you know, in teaching.

21:38 Speaker 2 So you, you think, you think, you think back in the day was, was more idealistic, and today people are more, are more grounded?

21:46 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Absolutely. There... When, when I started off in Shlichus, how many people became Baal Teshuva? You know, we were... You-- When we first came, my wife and I, we were at Chabad House on Peel Street with students on campus.

22:01 Speaker 2 That's how you started off in Montreal.

22:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. So a girl, Hanukkah time, she happens to be downtown, and she sees the, the menorah in front of the Chabad House, so she walks into the Chabad House, and she's in the library. I was finishing with students downstairs. It was Hanukkah at a restaurant there, so they came, and they were, whatever, lighting menorah with them. I come upstairs, I see someone I don't know, a young girl, um, you know, a, a university student. I say, um, you know, I greet her. Said, "Come, you know, we're lighting menorah upstairs." Uh, a couple of kids that I had at the time. "Come and join us." She came, lit menorah, spoke. Said, "You know what? Next week we're going to Bikisha." A woman's Bikisha. "Why don't you come?" I think on... I think it was more or less on the spot she said yes, if I recall correctly. This, you know, we're talking about, uh, forty-three years ago, forty or forty-two years ago, on the spot. And she came with us with a, a group of other students, and, uh, today she's a Lubavitcher who, um, has a family grand-- She's a grandmother, ra- um, with a beautiful Lubavitch family. Where did it come from? She was looking for something. The lights of the menorah talked to her. Uh, seeing little kids and going when you meet someone for the first time, and they... And you say, "Yes, I'm gonna go to... We're going to the Rebbe. We're going for a Bikisha. Why don't you come for

23:41 Speaker 1 a Shabbaton?"

23:43 Speaker 2 Right.

23:43 Speaker 1 On a spot that someone's gonna say yes, that's idealism. You know, you don't get that today in the same way.

23:50 Speaker 2 Interesting. Yeah, 'cause this is, this is a very... I mean, th-this feels a little bit like a topic that w- that was covered, you know, i-in, in, in, in yeshiva za'ars late at night. Um, but you know, it's, it, it's, um, it's, it's... I've heard it spoken about since then as well, which is, you know, where'd all the, where, where did all the Ba'al Teshovas go? Like, you know, and, uh, some people use it as, um, or some people see that as evidence of, of, like, a slide. You know, oh, once upon a time, the Shluchim were way more, you know, tzum zach, and that's why they had their Ba'al Teshovas. And today, Shluchim are busy with other stuff. And you're, you're suggesting a different, a different theory, which is very compelling, which is that, uh, once upon a time, Ba'al Teshovas looked... The, the look was more obvious. The before and after was more drastic.

24:37 Speaker 1 Right.

24:37 Speaker 2 And so it was more, you know, from dreadlocks to kapota in, you know, spee- you know, zero to sixty kind of, you know, at the speed of light. Transf- the transformation was much more apparent, and so you're able to, in a way, quantify it. Today, you have a lot of people who, you know, maybe they, they're taking practices in much more gradually, and so you don't necessarily see that change, and you don't... You-- There, there are a lot of people who you ca- they wouldn't call themselves Ba'al Teshovas, and you wouldn't call them Ba'al Teshovas, but their life has changed.

25:10 Speaker 1 Right.

25:10 Speaker 2 Is that what you're saying?

25:12 Speaker 1 Take... Add to that is that I was a, a unique person who went to yeshiva in Eretz Israel, right? Um, that was a unique thing to, to happen. Um, a community coming from that was not observant, not just my family, but a, a, a community. Today, there's frum people everywhere and mixed in, you know, whether they're completely frum with wearing a black hat or whether they're just, you know, keeping Shabbos. But Yiddishkeit is much more prevalent today than it was 50 years ago.

25:51 Speaker 2 Right.

25:51 Speaker 1 And therefore, it's not gonna be as pronounced. The individual and in the individual's journey itself, like you said, it's not gonna go zero to 60 because you're already mixed in. You know, everybody has a relative-

26:06 Speaker 2 Right

26:06 Speaker 1 ... that is gone to yeshiva.

26:09 Speaker 2 You're saying it's not in or out.

26:11 Speaker 1 Right.

26:11 Speaker 2 There's, there's a spectrum.

26:12 Speaker 1 There's a spec- Just like in Lubavitch today, right?

26:14 Speaker 2 That's right.

26:15 Speaker 1 It's not in or out.

26:16 Speaker 2 Right.

26:17 Speaker 1 Not in or out. It used to be, in the Jewish world, if you married out, you were out.

26:23 Speaker 2 Right.

26:23 Speaker 1 Today, it doesn't mean that.

26:25 Speaker 2 Uh, and that's not only out of the religion. There were communities, you know... My, my wife is Persian, uh, Sephardi and, and other, you know, there are Sephardi communities, there are Hasid- Hasidic communities like that, where if you married out of your community-

26:38 Speaker 1 You're out

26:39 Speaker 2 ... uh, y- you're married from outside the s- the, you know, the community that came from the city from the back home, but same country, but the different city-

26:45 Speaker 1 Right

26:46 Speaker 2 ... you're out. You can't daven in shul, you know? But yeah, that, that's all changed because those categories are obsolete.

26:53 Speaker 1 Right. Because we're getting to a deeper place in everybody and their identity. Your identity is more core. You're a Jew.

27:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

27:03 Speaker 1 Period.

27:03 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

27:04 Speaker 1 You're a Jew. Than it was, you know, what affiliation you have. The affiliations are kind of breaking down.

27:12 Speaker 2 So you think it means that people are, we're in a deeper place?

27:16 Speaker 1 I think it's a deeper place, absolutely.

27:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

27:18 Speaker 1 It may not, it may not seem that it's deeper because if you're g- coming from idealism and if you're coming from a, a thought out, you know, and struggle in your Yiddishkeit, so it seems that that's... What do you mean? What could be more deeper than that? In, in, in the lashon of Hasidus, that's the, the gili of the nefesh. That's the revelation of the soul, but it's not etzem haneshama.

27:42 Speaker 2 Right.

27:42 Speaker 1 Right? It's not the s- the core of the soul. This is an expression of core of the soul.

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29:19 Speaker 2 the etzem, right? 'Cause s- that word is often interchangeable, like piryei v'atmeus, and, and the word sometimes does go as a synonym. So etzem is, like, the whole of who you are, which is a very intense idea. But piryei also means, like, the thing that fits into a keili, right? That's limited, that's defined. And, and, and, and, and defined not... You know, atmeus is self-defined, which is, again, very intense and doesn't give you anything to, to hold it with, by definition. It, it, it, it's-

29:52 Speaker 1 And that's, and therefore, it's not intense because of that. Because of that. Definition creates intensity.

30:00 Speaker 2 Right.

30:01 Speaker 1 'Cause definition creates boundaries.

30:03 Speaker 2 So maybe they're less scary.

30:03 Speaker 1 And the boundary, the boundary-

30:05 Speaker 2 Right

30:05 Speaker 1 ... right, i- is what creates the intensity because till here, not further, right? But etzem, like you said, it's self-defined. It's not defined by anything outside of it. Um, and in that r- way, it's actually not intense 'cause in the end, that's you.

30:24 Speaker 2 Right. No, what I meant was that-

30:26 Speaker 1 So-

30:26 Speaker 2 ... the word, the word is scary. It's, it's, it's, it's frightening.

30:28 Speaker 1 I understand the word, but, but to tie it in-

30:29 Speaker 2 Right. Right

30:30 Speaker 1 ... with what's happening now, um, since it's more, uh, atmeus, so therefore, it's more it's me.

30:38 Speaker 2 Right.

30:38 Speaker 1 And that ties in with self-determination that we have more today than ever before, which is reflected that even people think in a, in obviously in a strayed way that, you know, I can even determine, you know, my gender, right?

30:53 Speaker 2 Right.

30:53 Speaker 1 Why, what does that mean? It means so much power that I have of the core essence of, uh, who I am. That I can determine. Now, that's true, but all you, all you can determine is to reveal that. You can't determine what it is.

31:11 Speaker 2 But-

31:11 Speaker 1 So the core essence of you is a Jew.

31:13 Speaker 2 Right.

31:13 Speaker 1 And therefore, people are not coming to, oh, Orthodox Jew or, um, you know, uh, someone who is, you know, uh, fought the demons and whatnot, just, "Hey, I'm, I'm a Jew, and this is something that talks to my core of who I am as a Jew."

31:31 Speaker 2 Right. Right. You-you're saying if, if you can get past the labels, in a way, in a way, the labels is, is a more comfortable place to be because, "Oh, I, I'm this, I'm that," or, "I'm not this, I'm not that." And then once, once you strip away the labels and the labels become irrelevant, so then the quest- you, you can't fall back on them, so now you have to just ask the simple, almost binary question are, are... So in a way, it is in or out, but it's a different kind of in or out. Like, are you a Jew or you're not a Jew? Like, you're not, "Oh, I'm that kind of Jew." It's irrelevant, right? So that forces you to, to face it. What, what I was getting at before was, I think you can even say that pnimius in the way that people see as a smaller kind of pnimius is actually much more than people assume it to be. You have pnimius of like, um... The pnimius that's contained by a vessel, by definition, is actually a space that, that, that, that reflects the, the higher kind of pnimius as well. It's a miracle that this kind of pnimius exists. Like, one of... I think one of, at least the way I read it, that one of the, one of the insights of Chassidus is, is that not everything has a pnimius, so not everyone has access to a pnimius. I mean, so God is always a pnimius of things, but a

32:48 Speaker 2 Yid has a pnimius that he has access to. It's not, it's not, it's not taken for granted that everything has this interior world that has, that is much larger than, than the superficial side of it or the out, the exterior side of it. And so you may think that, "Oh, it's just me, you know, this is just me. This is just my small little life that I have to change, and there's nothing much going on here." But seeing it from the inside is actually a reflection of something much larger. And so it seems to me that what you're talking about is that, you know, in a world where people are, in some way, not asking the big questions and kind of just living their life and trying to optimize their day, which may seem very small and kind of just narrow-minded and inward, there is, there is potential there for, for tremendous lasting change. Not, not to even mention Beruch Nis, how something, a small change like that, what kind of impact it has going forward. But even, even on a more, uh, you know, a more obvious, immediate way, there, there's tremendous, there's tremendous space for innovation within one's own life that doesn't entail turning it on its head.

34:06 Speaker 1 Right.

34:07 Speaker 2 Uh, so by the pnimius is, I think.

34:09 Speaker 1 So m-maybe let's put in, into these terms. Tell me what you think. The, the things that I do, right, the ma'aseh. There is the pnimius, which is the way I s- perceive it and feel about it, sechel and midais. That's pnimius of the neshamah. And then there is the etzem, which is identity. An identity. So I can, I can be compelled by my mind and heart to do a mitzvah, or I can be compelled by a sense of identity, and that's what brings me to the mitzvah. So the '70s, '60s, '70s, whatever, people were compelled more by the mind and, and that which led to their heart, a passion, um, to do the mitzvah.

35:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

35:13 Speaker 1 Now they're compelled by etzem, which is identity, which is deeper. Identity is deeper than, um, as Rav explains. It's a deeper thing of identity. And you see today, you know, you put on tefillin with people, they're not arguing with you. "You know, I don't believe this and that." Very seldom, you know, you'll have such a person. And why they, they acquiesce is because, you know, they feel that this is a Jewish thing that I have maybe a small sense of identity with, but it is an identity of me.

35:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:51 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't understand it. I don't feel for it, so why are you doing it?

35:56 Speaker 2 Right.

35:56 Speaker 1 Because there is an attachment because of a deeper thing of an identity. "I'm a Jew, so you put on tefillin." As the famous story of Mendel Futterfas, "Me Jew, you Jew, you, me tefillin, you tefillin." What was that talking to? It wasn't talking to his mind, wasn't talking to his heart. It was talking to his etzem and neshamah, which is an identity.

36:16 Speaker 2 Right.

36:16 Speaker 1 The identity that I'm a Jew, and this is a Jewish thing, so you know. Now, the d-- the, the challenge with that is it, on one hand, it's, it can be very strong, but it can also be very weak.

36:27 Speaker 2 Right.

36:27 Speaker 1 Because if you lose that sense of identity, you don't bring it in pnimius. If you don't understand and appreciate and, you know, with your mind, and you don't unders-- have a feeling towards it with your heart, then it's gonna get lost. So that's, um, you know, where we need the two things.

36:45 Speaker 2 Right. Uh, no, so it's very, it's, it's, it's very interesting, this idea that the '60s and '70s was an era of ideas, which is obviously true. People were carried away with ideas, and very often that's romanticized as people being more serious about the, quote-unquote, "big questions."

37:03 Speaker 1 Right.

37:06 Speaker 2 In many ways, really what's going on is ideas are being debated, but the people are irrelevant. Like you, you-- no one's asking, "Well, well, what about me? Like, what does this, what does this mean to me?"

37:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

37:16 Speaker 2 "What does it mean to me?" It's more about what do you think about war or love or whatever they were into then, right? But asking like, you know, what does it mean to me, on one hand can feel very like, oh, so, you know, ther-therapy world where everything is about me-

37:32 Speaker 1 Right

37:32 Speaker 2 ... and everything's about, you know, just constant navel-gazing and so on. But there is a side to it which says, "No," 'cause like there's something, there's something about me that's larger than the idea, right? And it, it's a, it's a fine line, I think, because it can become just this constant harping on myself, which is the opposite of, of Etzem. But, but there's so- there's something of-- there's-- uh, if putting yourself into the story in a way, in a way that doesn't make, that in a way that doesn't limit, limit the story to how you see yourself in the first place, right?

38:12 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

38:12 Speaker 2 And finding out what the, what, what, what you, what you're here for. It does seem like that is, that, that, that is underrated in, in the, in the, in the kind of romantic language of, of ideas.

38:25 Speaker 1 We, we live in a world today of information, bina, right?

38:30 Speaker 2 Right.

38:31 Speaker 1 Some chachmah. There is chachmah out there, right? But really, uh, information age, that's bina.

38:36 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that?

38:38 Speaker 1 We, we have a lot of information today more than ever before, right?

38:41 Speaker 2 Right.

38:41 Speaker 1 It's at your fingertips. AI today, you know.

38:43 Speaker 2 Right.

38:43 Speaker 1 Before that, Google Rabbi, right?

38:45 Speaker 2 Right.

38:45 Speaker 1 You have everything at, uh, all the information of the world is now more available than ever before. We're in an information age, right? What's lacking is daas connecting with the information, that it, it becomes relevant to me. That it's not just a piece of information, like you say, pie in the sky, abstract, w-whether it's philosophical or whatever, but where am I in the picture? Daas is to bring it home, that to put me and how, what that means to me or how that affects me and changes my life. That's-

39:19 Speaker 2 But how do you make sure, how do you make sure that that doesn't turn into therapy talk? And I, I'm not, not to, not to knock on therapy per se, but, but how, but, but that kind of world where it's, it's, it's this constant engagement in myself and my story and, you know, you can sink into, you can sink into this kind of, uh, uh, maybe the word narcissism is too harsh, but just this very small world where you're upset.

39:44 Speaker 1 Well, let, let, let, let's, let-- well, let's put it this way. If you're learning a maimer, right? And, and, and, and, and you appreciate the message, right? And you think that the message that you're learning right now, oh, you know, my wife, she should hear this, or my kids, oh, they need to hear this. You missed the point. If it's not talking to you personally, then you, then it's information. If the maimer is not talking to you and what you're going through in your life, then, then it's bina, it's information, it's a nice abstract idea. But if you put yourself in there and it's talking to you and it's giving you a message on how, what, you know, and something that you're dealing with in your life, that's daas. That's called learning Torah. That's putting yourself in. Not in a narcissist way and not in, uh, call it, we, I don't, I wouldn't call it therapy. I mean, it, it is therapeutic. I wouldn't call it what you would call traditional therapy, but you know, that's what it is. Let's take it a step further. We're learning Shaarei HaEmunah now.

40:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

40:58 Speaker 1 Right? Very abstract, right?

41:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

41:01 Speaker 1 Very abstract. Um, when I give, uh, Tanya classes, sometimes I have to give a little more because it's from phys- pure physics of the universe, not everybody likes physics, right? So, um, real- what, what is it really teaching us? Is God is te-- is, is, today's Tanya, as a matter of fact, right? Is dibor, God's word. Um, what does it mean God is c- is, is creating the world every single moment? It means he's communicating in every single thing in this world every moment. So it means he's actually talking to me through everything that he is creating in this moment. Now, if you think that you understand the message and what God is creating in everything this moment, then you're, you're meshugenah, right? Is it the truth? Yes. Is there things in th- that we should, um, take the message of what is happening around us in a personal way 'cause God's talking the world into being? Who's he talking to? The world was created for me. So is there a message there that I should take from me? Absolutely. What? Okay, that's a different story. That's already, you gotta work that out. But, but the fact is, the whole thing, that's what's happening in creation. That's what's happening around us. In Hasidism, it's easy to s- it's easier to see it. In the world around you, that's already, that's avoda. That's real avoda.

42:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, the Chita says, right? That, that in the big pictures, this goes back to what we were talking earlier. There are the big macro things where the Dibor of Hashem is much more explicit. I cr-- Hashem says, "I create this," and, and, and we see that it's God's creation, right? Or we see it more obviously. Then there are the, the domim, the evan, the small, the, the avonim, the small things in life, the pebbles-

42:52 Speaker 1 Right

42:52 Speaker 2 ... that we k-kick with our feet, and God communicates with it, speaks to it, speaks it into existence, but it's bechilufei asvan, right? It's-

43:02 Speaker 1 Right

43:02 Speaker 2 ... the, the letters are changed around. It's gematrias. It's, it's, it's convoluted. It's not, it's, it's, it's-

43:06 Speaker 1 It's not obvious

43:07 Speaker 2 ... it's, it's, it's, it's deliberately confused, right? The, Hashem's not leaving a paper trail. This is a very complicated shell, shell, shell corporation, right? And, um- And, and that, it goes to a similar idea where there, there are these grand ideas, there are these grand ideas that, that are obviously in-- that are obviously intense or obviously big, and, uh, oh, it-- yeah, I know God is there, or I know that that's impressive. But if you're not able to see God in the small things, then in a way you're, you're making a fundamental, making a fundamental mistake-

43:44 Speaker 1 Right

43:44 Speaker 2 ... because you are now, you are now worshiping a h- a holy God, but a very impotent and irrelevant God, right? And, and, and it, it kind of, you know, you're kind of just, you- you're, you're shouting at the sun. You're, you're doing nothing, right? Which is what the critique that a lot of people make of, of the hippies, right? Like, you guys, you, you spoke a lot, and you, you composed a lot of wonderful songs, and you had Woodstock, but, but, but but-

44:11 Speaker 1 What else did you give?

44:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, but now, but, but now you just saddled us with a lot of national debt, whatever. I mean, that's American politics more. But, you know, I'm just saying, like, it, it, you know, it's like y- the, the famous boomer critique is that you had wonderful songs, but you're not a wonderful parent, for example. Um, you know, so I, I think, I think that's a, I think that's a very interesting connection to Tanya, where there, there's the, the obvious things and the less obvious things. Yeah.

44:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. Absolutely. And, um, but the, the, I guess the, the important message would be is that, um, God's messaging us.

44:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

44:56 Speaker 1 Right? We're, we're, we're... And, and we, uh, keep our eyes open, like, like what's going on in Eretz Yisrael. We see it on a, on a, on a, on a macro level, the, the miracles that are happening in the last few years with pain, with challenges, with difficulties. But, uh, the, the metamorphosis that's taking place in Eretz Yisrael and how... I, I was in Cancun Airport, and I went around to put on tefillin. I couldn't find an Israeli to put on tefillin with because they are already all put on tefillin. Right? Half a dozen Israelis there, um, and, and they had put on tefillin. I'm talking to someone with an earring, with tattoos, uh, and so on. Because getting back to the idea of etzem, in etzem you can have an identity of putting on tefillin and also an identity that you put it on your skin as a tattoo.

46:04 Speaker 2 Right.

46:04 Speaker 1 Right? And they don't see it as a contradiction because it didn't come into pnimius, it didn't co- wasn't internalized that they can appre-- you know, to appreciate that there might be some kind of, you know, contradiction.

46:18 Speaker 2 But you could, you could say, you could say in a way that it's pnimius because pnimius can also mean compartmentalized, right? There's different, there's different containers.

46:27 Speaker 1 Right. But pnim-- What's pnimius? Pnimius, it means right? Our understanding and our, and our emotions. So if you're taking your i-- uh, your identity, right, the etzem and neshama, right? And now you're bringing it in and internalizing it, so your identity is not gonna be with an earring, your identity won't be then with a tattoo, right? It, it won't be that way. Being that it's not brought into a pnimius, so then w- in other words, appreciating and understanding and learning and having a, a true passion for your Yiddishkeit, then, uh, you know... I mean, some, uh, some people obviously do. I'm, I'm not making a general statement here. I mean, maybe I am making a general statement, but, um, but for those that it, it doesn't is because it's touching a, a deeper place, but in that deeper place, in etzem, you can have two opposites that can coexist at the same time that are not healthy and appropriate to coexist, but they can coexist erroneously.

47:33 Speaker 2 Right. Hayinu k'chol mim.

47:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:35 Speaker 2 Hayinu k'chol mim, right? The, the, the-

47:36 Speaker 1 Right

47:37 Speaker 2 ... in time of galus, it's like a dream where dreams obviously by definition are, is a space where, where opposites exist. Uh, I think the Gemara says a elephant going into the hole of a pi- a-

47:49 Speaker 1 Man

47:49 Speaker 2 ... pithole, right?

47:50 Speaker 1 Right.

47:51 Speaker 2 Uh, and yeah, you do see, you do, you're, you're, you're suggesting that that, that that is a, that is a, another sign of, of, of a time where people are talking about their etzem, where, where, where it's who I, who I am without, without recourse to labels or convenient cate-- or, or more comfortable, no, um, familiar categories. You know, it, it, it was interesting. To, to make this more, uh, to, to bring it more to Lubavitch kind of, uh, language, 'cause very often this becomes a discussion about, about teshuvahs from the outside. You know, a, a few weeks... A, a while ago, I was spending some time in work with a, with a younger, uh, Lubavitcher, and he, uh, told me that he had just been on a, on a, on a, on a backpacking trip in Asia. He grew up in the same ki-- just as Lubavitch family as I did. You know, we, we, we, we both go back however far we go back, right? So is, you know, his, his, his... What do you say it in, in French? His provenance, where he comes from, is, is, is, uh, uh... That's not, that, that, that's... It, it was, it was fine. Uh, it was great. And, but, you know, he, he, he's on his own journey, and he told me that before he went on this backpacking trip, he kind of just said to himself, "I'm gonna go." This is all the way in another part of the world. "I'm gonna go

49:18 Speaker 2 and, and I'm gonna see what I end up doing. I'm not making any choices." Uh, you know, "Everything's on the table."

49:24 Speaker 1 Right.

49:25 Speaker 2 "Kosher, Shabbos, tefillin, yarmulke, everything is on the table. Let's see, let's see how things shake out."

49:32 Speaker 1 Shake out.

49:33 Speaker 2 Right? And he told me that there were some things that he kind of didn't do, and he found that, "Ah, I thought, I thought I would care about this more, and I don't." And there are some things that, that I, that, that I thought I wouldn't care about that I did. You know, and it was very interesting because I felt, you know, it... There, there's, you're talking about etzem, uh, you know, people talking about, like, real questions about who I am as opposed to what group I belong to. And these are like, these are real profound questions that he's asking, you know? And so I, I... The way I saw it was, you know, the fact that you kept kosher for two months when no one was watching, and you literally didn't have to, and you're not even held by guilt 'cause you're open to it. You, you don't care. Like, you're, you're... Meaning not that you don't care, clearly you do care, but you-you're not, you're not... You, you, you're, you're open to, to a changing. You're not being held down by, by ropes, and you, and you hold onto-

50:33 Speaker 3 You're, you're making choice rather than being compelled.

50:35 Speaker 2 Right. And so the way I phrased it was, like, you know, if, if, if, if, if the generations had been reversed, the Chassidim in Russia would be for bringing about you going on this trip, you know, keeping kosher for two months for no other reason besides just because, right? Instead, w-we spend the whole day feeling, feeling guilty that we, you know, that, that, that we take showers three times a week, uh, more than three times a week but more than they did. You know what I'm saying? And like, that's the language that we have. Like, why aren't we as Chassidish as they were? But, but really there's another side to it, which is, yeah, maybe they were, they were doing things that we should aspire to, like that davening with more kavanah and so on, uh, and maybe living a more spiritual ide-ideal-idealistic life. But this question of who am, who I am with the... You know, the, the flip side of it or, or the, the, what's so, what's so, um, intense about the question of who I am, who am I, is that you can only ask that question if you're really open to finding out that you're someone entirely different, right? If you ask, "Who am I?" And you already know the answer, "Well, of course, I'm a Fulda Babacher," you didn't ask a question.

51:46 Speaker 3 Right.

51:46 Speaker 2 That was no question.

51:47 Speaker 3 Right.

51:48 Speaker 2 Right? That, that's, that's what people don't like to talk about when, when we go to this kind of Etzem talk. It's like, yeah, you can go there, but, but there's a reason why it's been kind of held, held off limits for all these generations. Because if you... Once you open up that conversation, you can only open up that conversation by definition, if on the other side of it is a possibility of, of stepping out.

52:10 Speaker 3 Right.

52:11 Speaker 2 You cannot be... You cannot decide that you're in if you never thought of being out.

52:15 Speaker 3 So it's interesting what you say. We're before Mashiach. What's the, the, the, uh, the of Mashiach is lamata lamaila, not lamaila lamata. From above, from below to above, meaning it has to come from within, right? What does that mean, has to come from within? Think about it. Two hundred years ago, the Alter Rebbe's times, and you were some villager in some village, right? Or town. Came Friday night, what choice did you have? You make Kiddush on this wine or that wine. If you had enough money, you had maybe the choice of two wines, right? You had, you had a choice? No.

53:05 Speaker 2 Right.

53:05 Speaker 3 You were compelled. You were compelled to keep Shabbos. You didn't really choose it. You were raised with it. You know nothing else. The non-Jewish world won't let you into their world, and you don't wanna be part of that world anyway, so they hate you.

53:20 Speaker 2 Right.

53:21 Speaker 3 So what world, if you were in that milieu, you really didn't have a choice or minimal. And the, and, and those who did choose were completely out, right? If they chose to marry out or they chose to not be, uh, to be from, they were, you know, basically out. Today, everything's on the table. All the choices are there. And now we have more choice than ever, which is dangerous, obviously. You know, this thing called a smartphone, right? Um, opens up the world like never before. And as a, uh... So there's a great downside to that because you can have a slippery slope very easily going down, and we see that with... Because the world is so accessible. But on the other hand, what really that means is now I'm really choosing. I'm choosing 'cause this is what I really want. Why do I want it? You know, well, if it's because I came to it intellectually or I came to that this, I realize that this is a, you know, my who I am and what I wanna be. That choice has never been in all of history of the Jewish people till today.

54:41 Speaker 2 Hmm.

54:42 Speaker 3 That's Mashiach. That's Mashiach, that they have to choose that they want. Have to choose the king, that God is your king. That's what he wants in Melach Mulay Am, that there has to be separate people who are truly choosing. So it really never existed in the way that it exists today, and this is really a sign of, of the times of Mashiach, that people are making that choice. Now, how are they making that choice? Are they making that choice all in or all out? No, because... I mean, for the most part they're not. Maybe some are. But for the, for the most part, it's people who are saying, "This is something that I'm choosing. I'm choosing this, the kosher."

55:25 Speaker 2 Well-

55:25 Speaker 3 "But this I'm not yet." Right? Uh, this-

55:28 Speaker 2 But in your language, they are choosing in because-

55:30 Speaker 3 They're not-

55:31 Speaker 2 ... in is not defined by specific acts. It's the actual who am I, and I'm a Jew. Well, I may not, I may not display it, or I may not practice it XYZ.

55:40 Speaker 3 No, so that, but that, in, in choosing kosher, why am I choosing it? Not because I'm compelled.

55:47 Speaker 2 'Cause I'm a Jew.

55:47 Speaker 3 Because I, I'm choosing.

55:49 Speaker 2 Right.

55:49 Speaker 3 'Cause I'm a Jew. Why am I, why am I choosing it? For the most part, it's not because of an, not because of, uh, abstract ideas, not because of the, the pro... uh, the, the, the, the hippie times of that you went through looking for the truth. That's not why you chose it. Even that's compelling. Truth is, you know, the mind will compel. Here, there's nothing truly compelling except me. Me and my... I'm choosing my identity. I wanna be a Jew that expresses his Judaism or his Jewishness better in this mitzvah, whether it's right now just putting on tefillin or keeping kosher or whatever mitzvah that a person, you know, takes upon themselves.

56:26 Speaker 2 Hmm.

56:27 Speaker 3 I think that's very unique.

56:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and I think it's also worth, worth pointing out again that f- you know, we-- as, as Lubavitchers, we very often think about the choices that other people make to come in. But you cannot have it... You-- It cannot be a one-way street, right? The... You talk about the times of Moshiach that people are choosing to be in. Uh, there, there are gonna be people who are gonna choose to be out, or they're-

56:53 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

56:53 Speaker 2 Or they're gonna go out and in.

56:54 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

56:55 Speaker 2 And, and, and, and you know-

56:56 Speaker 3 Absolutely. Otherwise, it's not a choice.

56:58 Speaker 2 Right.

56:58 Speaker 3 You're right. Otherwise, it's compelled.

56:59 Speaker 2 Right. And I-

57:00 Speaker 3 The fact is that you're right. There has to be the f- the flow of in and out. For the most part, though, there's more opting in. Why? Because in the end, it is the truth of who you are.

57:11 Speaker 2 Right.

57:12 Speaker 3 But, uh, absolutely correct. If there is no... If no one is going out, that means everybody's choosing is really not choosing. They're being compelled-

57:21 Speaker 2 Correct

57:21 Speaker 3 ... by something external to them that's compelling them, and that's not truly choosing them. Truly choosing is, "I'm choosing. No one's forcing it upon me. Not the ghetto that I live in, not the neighborhood that I live in, not even the family that I live in." Because today, you know-

57:39 Speaker 2 Right

57:39 Speaker 3 ... it's, it's a different world.

57:40 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like having a discussion with someone and saying, "Yeah, we should, we should, you know, we disagree, but let's have a conversation just to, you know, to really, to really flesh out our ideas and see if we can find common ground. However, I know I'm right and you're wrong." It's like, you know, then, then, then you're not really open to the conversation. You're, you're open to persuasion of the other guy. You're not open to-

58:02 Speaker 3 Right.

58:02 Speaker 2 You're not open, right? And so, you know, well, you know, the... I-if, if we embrace openness, if we embrace a time of openness, and not openness for the sake of being open-minded, right, which celebrates doing things differently, but openness for the sake of openness, where people choose because that's who they are and it's done in a true way, if you embrace that, you are embracing inevitably, and, and without... You cannot negotiate this. You are embracing a, a time of serious flux from within as well, right? And, you know, you start... You mentioned earlier the idea of the Rebbeim handpicking their Chassidim. For some reason, we believe that the Rebbeim handpicked their Chassidim, you know, from all kinds of places, but then every single child of every single Chassid is going to... Y-you know, it's not hand... Like, it's not a matter of being handpicked anymore. Now it's just, it's, it's static. It's, it's, it's a given. And there's no such thing.

59:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

59:01 Speaker 2 There's no, there's no such thing. And, and, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it, the two go, the two go to, the two go together, the two go together within a person's own life, in my, at least in my experience. You cannot choose to be in, in your own way, y-in your own life. You cannot choose to be in if you haven't seriously contemplated being out, right? And, and it's, it's, it's a scary place to go. It's a scary place to go. I can talk from experience to some extent. And not... And everybody's journey is different. I can't speak to someone else's experience. But being in a place where you are seriously contemplating whether you're in or out, and it could be religiously, it could be with your group of people, you know, being a Lubavitcher and so on, this is a scary place to be. But it's the only way you make a choice.

59:52 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

59:54 Speaker 2 All right. So I, I, I wanna just go back to your story a little bit. Uh, we, we went off on a serious tangent here. But there was a, there was something you spoke about before. You mentioned it in passing that when you were, when you were, um, when you were speaking to this girl coming to come to the Pogisha, you framed it as an encounter with the Rebbe. Was that how it was framed to you? Or how did you remember that when you first came to Pogisha?

1:00:18 Speaker 3 Hmm. I think all of the above. Um, what spoke more to me?

1:00:33 Speaker 2 How was it framed? Was it like, "Come meet the Lubavitcher Rebbe"? Was that how it was? Or was it, "Come meet other college students"?

1:00:45 Speaker 3 I don't think it was framed, "Come meet Lubavitcher Rebbe." I don't think so. I think that was part of, you know, um, the packaging, if you will. Um, "Come for a, a weekend encounter with Chabad," right? That's the, uh, English of Pogisha. "And have a, an encounter," right? "Have a, an experience that..." Which is, I think, at least then, it was probably more about the experience as general, including the Rebbe. I think later on it became more focused on the Rebbe. And later, you know, for me at least, I mean, maybe 'cause I became a Shliach, and therefore that became the focus and... But at that time, I don't think the, the, the focus was as much on the Rebbe as it was on the entire encounter of a community, people-

1:01:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:47 Speaker 3 ... um, incl- a-and of course, the Rebbe.

1:01:50 Speaker 2 Do, do you remember, was there a Yechidus then? How did... What, what was the encounter with the Rebbe in this Pogisha that you came to?

1:02:06 Speaker 3 You know what? Actually, I have to look it up because I don't remember if there was a farbrengen that Shabbos.

1:02:13 Speaker 2 Wasn't certainly nothing that you remember vividly.

1:02:15 Speaker 3 Definitely that, nothing that I remember vividly. That's for sure. That's for sure.

1:02:21 Speaker 2 There was no yechidas or anything?

1:02:22 Speaker 3 No, there was no yechidas, so I can't remember if there was a farbrengen. And if there was, we were like, you know, only there shortly probably.

1:02:32 Speaker 2 Yeah, they wouldn't keep you there.

1:02:33 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, we were there for a short time, so it's definitely didn't make the imp-- You know, at the time I was, um, I was eighteen years old, seventeen years old.

1:02:52 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you would have a story that you remember.

1:02:54 Speaker 3 No, I was, I'm saying that farbrengen didn't make that im... If there was, I don't even remember now.

1:02:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:59 Speaker 3 If, if, if there was, curious to know. But definitely we weren't there for that long. If we were, um, it's far before dollars.

1:03:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:11 Speaker 3 So no, no dollars. Um, later on shlichas, definitely bringing people to the Rebbe was a huge thing, especially when there was dollars.

1:03:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:03:31 Speaker 3 So that was definitely a huge incentive for people, the young people to come. So we're talking about times that we bring a full bus, sometimes even two buses.

1:03:43 Speaker 2 From Montreal?

1:03:44 Speaker 3 From Montreal of st- of young people, all young people. And today at Lubavitch Hasidim, you know, many of them in Lubavitch community, Montreal and, and elsewhere.

1:03:53 Speaker 2 And so the main, the main focus then was that-

1:03:57 Speaker 3 Definitely.

1:03:57 Speaker 2 -they want to meet the Lubavitch Rebbe.

1:03:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:04:00 Speaker 2 It's interesting how things changed.

1:04:02 Speaker 3 Totally.

1:04:05 Speaker 2 When did it change for you in, in terms of your-- 'Cause it's very interesting. You speak to people about their story of coming to Lubavitch, and sometimes it's a story of, "Oh, I met the Lubavitch Rebbe, and, you know, I need to be a Hasid," kind of story. Um, which if I'm being cynical for a moment or, you know, I'm usually a bit skeptical of those stories, like, let's dig a little bit deeper. Was it simple? Was it literally just you came and you saw, "Well, I need to ch..." Like, usually it's more, but, you know, there are stories that do have that kind of emphatic point of like, "I met the Rebbe, and I was gonna be his Hasid," and so on. But there are stories where it's, it's, it's around, you know. It's, it's, "I met the Hasidim around the Rebbe, and I learned..." You know, "This, this Hasid taught me something, and I developed a connection to him, and I wanted to see what he..." So when, when did it, did it, or w-when did, did it change for you, and when did it change for you?

1:04:58 Speaker 3 So it's actually interesting. There's, um, when I was in, in Miami, in, in Yeshiva.

1:05:06 Speaker 2 Right, so getting back to your story.

1:05:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. So we're talking about now, I came the end of the first shluchim, ta- the end of Teshrin lamed vav in, in Av. And this is probably a year and a half later in Yeshiva. An incident happened with, uh, a bachur in Yeshiva, was a baal teshuva. Didn't really have family, this and that, and he was a little odd, and the bachurim didn't particularly like him.

1:05:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:05:44 Speaker 3 He, it was, he was odd, that's true, but he was harmless. And something happened, I don't recall exactly, uh, uh, whatever it was, he was kicked out of Yeshiva. He-- Not because he did something or whatever, I don't remember. Not because he did anything bad. And I actually felt that it was wrong. I, I was really upset. And not, not gonna 'cause I was even really, I wasn't close with him, or I wasn't really a friend, but I just felt it was unjust.

1:06:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:17 Speaker 3 And especially, it's a baal teshuva doesn't, he doesn't have, he didn't really have a, any solid place to go.

1:06:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:25 Speaker 3 Right? And I felt the injustice of it, and it pained me to such a degree. I was thinking, "What am I doing in Yeshiva here?" Like, like, "What am, what am I doing?" And, and we're talking about, you know, the Rosh Yeshiva. In the end, he was kicked out not by bachurim, but the Rosh Yeshiva, right?

1:06:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:45 Speaker 3 Uh, and that was very, um, to such a degree you're saying, you know, in, out, right? What am I doing here? It's like, how could such a thing happen in Lubavitch Yeshiva? And then, then I realized, "You know why I'm here? I'm not here because of anybody but the Rebbe." And, and at that moment, it, it was the epiphany of, like, the deep connection that I felt, uh, that kept me, and kept me and keeps me, and I think keeps many of us.

1:07:20 Speaker 2 One second.

1:07:20 Speaker 3 I feel it-

1:07:20 Speaker 2 One, one second, though. W-how did the Rebbe suddenly appear in your life the way that you're describing now?

1:07:26 Speaker 3 I, I was in a year and a half in the Yeshiva, so I learned Hasidism. I was by farbrengens.

1:07:30 Speaker 2 You thought, oh, you went in and out to New York?

1:07:32 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We went in, yeah. I was there Tishrei. I was there, I was there Tishrei lamed zayin. Lam, I was there lamed heh by the, the Rebbe's, uh, Shemini Atzeres.

1:07:43 Speaker 2 Oh, you were there?

1:07:44 Speaker 3 I was there.

1:07:45 Speaker 2 What was that like for you?

1:07:48 Speaker 3 Um, Simchas Torah, dancing till seven in the morning, and at the end of the morning, we're singing, "The Rebbe is gezunt." The big, the, the nights we're singing, "The Rebbe is gezunt." The Rebbe is... In the morning we're all singing, "The Rebbe is gezunt."

1:08:05 Speaker 2 But there was no, there was no information in between, right?

1:08:07 Speaker 3 Uh, Leib Groner came down several times, you know, saying that singing and the dancing is, you know, giving the Rebbe- Uh, highest, um, but, but w-w-what became the epiphany is the, the, the re-recognition of why I'm connected is not because of an individual or individuals or a group. It's because of the rebbe, it's because of Hasidism, 'cause it's-

1:08:35 Speaker 2 Yeah, what do you mean by that, that you're a „Hasid“ because of the rebbe? Like, what do you mean?

1:08:40 Speaker 3 Here, here was something that was done that I felt was a, a terrible avla-

1:08:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:08:45 Speaker 3 ... to a bocher.

1:08:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:46 Speaker 3 Right? Um-

1:08:48 Speaker 2 Which made you mistrust the people running the yeshiva or the-

1:08:51 Speaker 3 So I was kind of like, uh, how, you know, justice was not meted out properly the way, you know-

1:08:57 Speaker 2 Fair enough. Yeah

1:08:58 Speaker 3 ... and then I'm questioning, like, uh, like it bothered me to the, the degree that like, what am I doing here? Like, if, if, if the, if this wasn't done-

1:09:07 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:07 Speaker 3 ... you know, it, it-

1:09:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't respect these pe- I don't respect these people at, at the moment

1:09:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, so then why am I, why am I learning here?

1:09:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:15 Speaker 3 So, you know, why I'm learning here is the rebbe's yeshiva.

1:09:17 Speaker 2 Why? So what's... I'm trying to understand, what does that mean? Like, what, what does the rebbe's yeshiva, what, what value does that have to you?

1:09:22 Speaker 3 It's because my, my con- uh, because m- because my connection is not because of them. My connection is deeper, right? It's the rebbe's yeshiva, and I'm connected, feel that-

1:09:33 Speaker 2 But who does the rebbe, what does the rebbe mean to you at that point?

1:09:36 Speaker 3 The rebbe meant the rebbe.

1:09:38 Speaker 2 What does that mean?

1:09:39 Speaker 3 „Rebbe Israel“.

1:09:40 Speaker 2 That's how you felt?

1:09:41 Speaker 3 What do you mean? Rebbe Israel, it meant, uh-

1:09:43 Speaker 2 No, because some peop- because some people say that they, that, that the rebbe answered their questions, and they felt that the rebbe cared about them. The rebbe understood them. They, they felt, uh, they, they, they, they f- they connected to his personality and, you know-

1:09:56 Speaker 3 So I, so I can't, I can't say that, you know, that there's a-

1:09:58 Speaker 2 Right, you had a bocher, you know, being in Miami, and I would, you know, what, you know.

1:10:03 Speaker 3 You haven't brought up some kind of impactful „ichiddis“ or something.

1:10:06 Speaker 2 No.

1:10:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:08 Speaker 2 No.

1:10:08 Speaker 3 S-so, so who, so who is this... If you, if you lose trust... 'Cause it, by the way, this is a very, this is a very important story because a lot of people s- you know, they, they... You, you, as you grow up, the people that you looked up to, inevitably you find out that they're flawed individuals .

1:10:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:29 Speaker 3 Now, as you get even older, you realize your children-

1:10:32 Speaker 2 As, as, as-

1:10:32 Speaker 3 ... when they look at you as a k- as a kid and when they grow up, they say, "Oh."

1:10:37 Speaker 2 Well, and then as you get even a bit older, then you realize that's the whole point. The flawed individual is worth looking up to because s- right?

1:10:46 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:10:46 Speaker 2 ... that, that's what human, humanity is. But it's, this is a story that happens all the time. People like, "The system's screwed up."

1:10:53 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:53 Speaker 2 "This yeshiva's screwed up. My teacher's screwed up." Whatever it is, and there's corruption. I mean, there's, you know, you're in shlichus. Something, uh, uh, there are people who are in shlichus, and they see stuff going on in shlichus, and it's like, "Oh, these people are f- you know, my colleagues are full of crap." Whatever it is, 'cause people are people.

1:11:10 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:11 Speaker 2 And you, you're looking to ground yourself or, or fasten yourself to something that's more foundational and more true. What, what does that mean, though?

1:11:22 Speaker 3 That's the rebbe.

1:11:23 Speaker 2 What, what's that? Is it just a catchall for, for, for truth?

1:11:27 Speaker 3 Um, I mean, you know, I think to, to quantify it would, wouldn't, wouldn't capture it. You know, of course you can.

1:11:49 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:49 Speaker 3 But I felt the rebbe as, as a caring father, you know, in not necessarily in a very specific way to me at the, at that time, at that time. Um, you know, the truth is to be careful because we're talking about something that happened almost 50 years ago, so, you know, I could be... You know, what I feel now the connection and what it is now compared to what it was then is, you know, very, uh, very much devel- you know, grown. And, uh, so I have to be careful to make sure that I'm not just seeing it from today.

1:12:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:36 Speaker 3 Um, so that, that, that, that would be hard to specifically, um, answer that question, except that I felt very connected and, um, devoted to the rebbe and Hasidism and this way of, of life. And that's what gave strength at that moment.

1:13:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:13:05 Speaker 3 That's, that's, that for sure is very clear. How to quantify it at the moment or to qualify it, uh, uh, um, I don't know how to-

1:13:15 Speaker 2 Well-

1:13:15 Speaker 3 I, I, I don't know how to, what to say from 50 years ago. Today, you know, may be a little different, but you know.

1:13:21 Speaker 2 Right. Fair enough. Yeah. Diagnosing it from my vantage point, and I, I, this is without any qualifications. I have no letters after my name. I haven't been trained in this, but, but just from what you've told me, it seems to me like just the story that you're saying, you know, you're on a train, and you find out that, let's say the, the ticket, the ticket oper- the, the people that come to punch your tickets and the attendants of this, on this train, uh, they don't seem to really, to really know what's going on. Or if, or to make it even a little bit, a little bit more striking, you're on a plane, okay? And if you've ever been on a plane and there's a little bit of turbulence, th- you, and you're, you're worried about it, look at the steward, stewardess. Very often it doesn't rattle. They do this all the time, right?

1:14:13 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:13 Speaker 2 So if you look at them, and they're usually pretty chill about it, you're like, "Okay, this is just normal stuff." Where you can start getting a bit concerned is when their face gets concerned.

1:14:22 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:22 Speaker 2 Okay? It's happened to me a couple times. Now, that doesn't happen that often, but sometimes you see the stewardess look at each other, and they're, they're scared. You're like, "Oh no, what's this about?" Right? Right? And so you're, you're on this kind of trajectory, and the people that are... have always been just, like, symbolically assuring you that things are in good shape, all of a su- they start to shake and falter, and you're like, "Oh no, what's going on?"

1:14:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:50 Speaker 2 But really who you need to know about is the pilot, right? 'Cause who cares about these people? They're not running the plane. If the pilot is c- if the pilot's confident, then, then you're in good hands, which is ultimately rationally what you have to remind yourself-

1:15:04 Speaker 3 Right

1:15:04 Speaker 2 ... whenever you're on a plane. For , you know, for any people scared of flying or listening to this, you have to remember that the pilot's been trained, and the likelihood of anything serious happening is ex-is almost not, not, doesn't, almost doesn't exist. And this is what they do, and they're trained actually to be calm in these situations. And it's not ex-in a perfect mashal, but it seems to me like, like your thing is that, you know, you're in this-- you're on this path that you've chosen 'cause you didn't grow up this way, and you actually switch from one yeshiva to another yeshiva with, wi-which always inevitably means, "Well, maybe I took the wrong choice," 'cause that's the definition of a choice, right? Right. And all of a sudden you have reason to really doubt what you're doing. "Why am I here? These people, you know, they're not, they're not up to snuff." And maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but that's how you felt. And then you know that, well, the person driving this train or flying this plane, whatever the metaphor is, him I can trust. Right. Right? Which, which basically says I, I-- Lubavitch is in good hands. Lubavitch is in good hands. Chassidus is in good hands. I, I, I'm an adherent of this school of thought and this way of life, and no one else gets to define it for me besides the person who's appointed to be its caretaker, which is what, essentially what a rebbe is. Mm-hmm. Uh,

1:16:31 Speaker 2 that's, that's, that's my, that's my- Good. Very good ... that's my diagnosis of your story. Very good. That, that's my diagnosis of your story. The, uh, I-I... Perhaps for anybody that's listening, the, the, um, the obvious message and the important message is, um, everybody will experience on the journey some turbulence and, um, you know, if you're mature enough, then you'll recognize w-who you have to look at rather than who you shouldn't look at in that time of turbulence. And if there is someone who is an authority figure that did something that was, you know, wrong, inappropriate, whatever the case may be, um, first of all, know they're human. We are all human, and we can all make mistakes. Um, and just know that you're in good hands, and don't look at just, at that micro moment or experience, and recognize, um, or, or, or look back and, and think about is, do you have a commitment because of the Rebbe? Do you feel a connection to the Rebbe? Um, and that is something that needs, of course, to be developed. You know, it's interesting, the Rebbe I think spoke after thirty years by Yitzvat, the Friediker Rebbe, and people saying thirty years, you know, time has passed on, and you forget. Right. Or you're less connected. And the Rebbe said, "Chas v'shalom." With time, you know, the Rebbe, he said, "The Friediker Rebbe is more real. He's more accessible," and, and so on, were his, some of the words he used. And I think we

1:18:34 Speaker 2 find that in our generation, which is quite unique. Coming to Gimmel Tammuz, Lev Shana, thirty-two years, it's hard to believe. Um, I think, I wouldn't say across the board, but for many, they feel actually more connected to the Rebbe today than they did ten years ago or twenty years ago, or maybe even when the Rebbe was physically alive. I think there are as many that have that. How, how's that possible that if you go by dollars and the Rebbe looks you in the eyes and gives you a brachah v'hatzlacha, even if it might be just a moment, or by your farbrengen by the Rebbe, hearing, uh, sicha, maimar, and so on. How is, how is it possible? Uh, how does it, how does it make sense? It does, because the Rebbe's emes and Torah and, and Chassidus is emes, and the more you engage in it, the more you engage in the teachings, the more you see the emes of the teachings. We learn the Parsha every week, every year. We do Re- uh, we do Tanya every year. Uh, now, you could just read it, but if you're learning it, alei v'daemes, you're gonna learn in today's Tanya something more, and it's gonna be more relevant to you and more real to you than it was a year ago or ten years ago. Right. Which means the ma'ar shebe Torah, the Rebbe, where, where it comes from, becomes more real and more something that you feel connected to. It's a hundred percent true. It's

1:20:14 Speaker 2 not... And it's all lo yracheikihi. It's not something distant. But what, what it demands from us is to learn, not learn for the saking, sake of, you know, 'cause I feel good about myself that I learned, you know. Because then you're just being yetzer. Learning in a way that, that you're, it's talking to you. It's more real to you. It's more authentic to you, the teachings now than ever before. That's who we are in our generation. That's really a choice. That is a, a choice that needs to be made. It's not a choice once. It's a choice every day. Every day, you're, you're, you're doing Cheitas Rambam, or you're doing whatever you're learning, a choice that, that I'm Want to see more of the truth of its teachings and, and be more connected. And that has to be an awareness and a constant engagement. It's not something that, you know, we just take on autopilot. That's the uniqueness of where we're holding today, I think more than ever before. Um, having that choice, making that choice, and therefore living more connected to-today than ever before. I think that is actually happening with many, many people. I won't say everybody. Well, that's by definition. It can't- Right ... be with everybody. Well, because they're not make-- only for one reason, they're not making the choice. Well, that's a... My point is, if it's a choice- Right ... it can't be with everybody. Right. It can't be with everybody. You know, you said how could it be--

1:21:50 Speaker 2 how is it possible? And according to what we're discussing, it, it, it makes sense. It's not inevitable, but it's possible because at dollars... I wasn't-- I was there as a little boy, I don't remember it, but the, you know, the idea that you go to the rabbi and he looks in your eyes and, and your life changes, that's, that's, that's, uh, that is a idea. That is, that is hippie land in many ways, you know? It's, it's, it's, it's these kind of encounters that, that aren't real life. Mm-hmm. They seem, they seem... You know, even then, they, they only happened there. It didn't happen anywhere else. And so it's, it's not... It's, it's real, but it's not, it's not regular life. It's not, it's- It's not through our world today, for sure not. No, but even back then, it was, it was you... You know, what people don't like to see sometimes is like the, you know, we, we, we see the gemified version of the '80s where, you know, the Farbrengens. But, you know, there, there are videos of literally in 770 during a Farbrengen on the other side of the bleachers, people are schmoozing. Or you can see a video of, you know, outside... I once came across footage from a TV station that was filmed during the riots. And so you see they had like a t- a TV trained on the front of 770. The rabbi's in his office. He's right there, and there's a bunch of people standing outside the

1:23:11 Speaker 2 front door of 770 bullshoving like they bullshove today, right? Like, life was going on. Life, of course, was going on. There were these encounters that people had that in their mind, and, and I, I don't doubt them, felt very, very unique. But that, in many way, that's hippie talk. Like it's, you know, you, you, you're living your life, then you go, you jump up here, and then you're right back down here. Right. And, uh, what, what you're talking about here today is that what's, what's much more real is a choice that someone makes that, that because it's Etzem, because it's core of who I am, it actually cuts much deeper. It's riskier, but it cuts much deeper and, and, and, and, and is more true. So- Yeah. All right. Thank you very much. Uh, appreciate your time. And, uh- Of course ... Shbith machatzlacha. Amen. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Sor and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.