Ep. 79 // "Aiming for Higher" w/ Rabbi Michoel Gourarie

00:00 Speaker 1 If you exist, and I am I, and I remain I, but I'm growing. I wanna grow in Yishar Koach. I'll do another mitzvah next week. I wanna-- But I'm still I, then it's a limited growth-

00:09 Speaker 2 Right

00:10 Speaker 1 ... 'cause I never really leave myself. Chassidus, and perhaps ultimately Mashiach, is about, "Na, ani lo ne'e vereiz." It's olelos kos. My approach becomes different. I, I, I aim higher. Instead of aiming to three, I aim to 10 because I'm really striving for that, the truth. That's part of the answer about, you know, the relevance of Chassidus. Yeah, learn, learn. Delve in Sekhel. Spend a lot of time about where, where you should be because then your whole life perspective will change, and then where you can be becomes different.

00:43 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Hafetz, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here in Crown Heights, Council of Shomrei Habrachah with Rabbi Michoel Gurary, shliach in Sydney, Australia.

01:10 Speaker 1 That's right.

01:11 Speaker 2 Uh, we're here around the Kinus. Thank you very much for making the time.

01:16 Speaker 1 Great to be here.

01:17 Speaker 2 Thank you, uh-

01:18 Speaker 1 Thanks for the opportunity.

01:19 Speaker 2 Thank you, uh, dear friend of the podcast, Rabbi Mendy Gansburg, for the hospitality. I'll fix the mic over here. And to all those listening to the podcast, who will enjoy this podcast, please like and subscribe on the platforms you're listening to it, you're listening to it on. I didn't get those word-verbs right. And if you really like the podcast, please send a donation. Support the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyway, Rabbi Gurary, thank you very much. Thank you very much for doing this.

01:54 Speaker 1 Pleasure. Thank you.

01:56 Speaker 2 And, uh, yeah, we were speaking, we were speaking earlier about some, some ideas that we could, we could, we could get going on. But I think, uh, it behooves us at the beginning to let you introduce yourself and give us a little bit of a background, where you come from, what your story is, by all means.

02:13 Speaker 1 Okay. So my name is Michoel Gurary. I was born in South Africa, actually, and grew up there. Um, later on, I learned in, in the States. I was a shliach as a bocher in Melbourne, which is originally why I had a connection to Australia. And after we got married, my wife and myself, she's from here, she's from the States, we were offered a position in Melbourne, in, uh, Sydney, I mean. Um, my background is chinuch. I did chinuch for a number of years and then moved into chinuch of adults. So for the last twenty-seven years in Sydney, I run an organization called Binah, which is at its core, it's there to spread learning of Torah to the wide spectrum of the Jewish community. So we have different streams. Um, we have, uh, a regular basic midrash going on for men, for women, chavruses, Gemara shiurim, halakha, chasidus, just the regular mainstream textual learning. And then we have f- streams of outreach where we take people who don't have a background of learning, package the topics a little bit differently, although we try to stay committed to the authenticity of the content. It's all Torah. Um, but we do just different topics that will bring them in and, and Baruch Hashem successfully. Then we have young adults and all that sort of the whole full spectrum of the community. One of the, um, things that has happened through that journey is that we do a stream of personal growth, which is-

03:37 Speaker 2 Now one second. Can I, can I, can I-

03:38 Speaker 1 Sure, please.

03:39 Speaker 2 Can I, can I open up your story a little bit? First of all, uh, there's already a kinship here because Binah in chasidus is sometimes associated with yuvalah. Machshava ve'yuvalah. And my comp- my, my video production company is Yuvalah.

03:55 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. There you are.

03:56 Speaker 2 All right? So I-- for, for those who ask what yuvalah is, yuvalah is, uh, it means technically it's Aramaic for yoel, for shofar or for, for, for yoel jubilee.

04:06 Speaker 1 Right.

04:06 Speaker 2 And, uh, chasidus, chasidus, it's very often, uh, used as a reference machshava ve'yuv- it's brought from Zohar. Machshav yuv, yuvalah tren reindu lehi misparshin.

04:14 Speaker 1 Right, right, right.

04:15 Speaker 2 Right? And yuvalah, and so-

04:17 Speaker 1 It's very much kind of Binah

04:17 Speaker 2 ... machshava is chachmah, and yuvalah is binah.

04:19 Speaker 1 Right.

04:19 Speaker 2 So there we go. There, there's, there's a kinship right there, and that's also why I didn't call it Binah Productions because you already had it selected by yourself. Uh, no, but, but to go to your story, uh, you grew up in Austra- in South Africa. I don't know the, all the details. From what I, from what I've pieced together, your mo- your mother, uh, not pieced together. I know your son. Your, your gr- your mother's from South Africa, right?

04:42 Speaker 1 She wasn't born in South Africa. She was born in a very chasidish shtetl called Dokshitz.

04:46 Speaker 2 Okay.

04:46 Speaker 1 But she came to South Africa when she was four years old. So my, my grandfather, her father, was a Dokshitzer. Um, he was an interesting person. He was a-

04:56 Speaker 2 What was his name?

04:57 Speaker 1 Re- Rabbi Yirmiyall Aloi.

04:59 Speaker 2 Aloi.

05:00 Speaker 1 He was a, he was a big rav in South Africa and a dayan in the Beth Din. He was a Dokshitzer. He grew up with a very chasidish chinuch. However, he didn't learn in chasidish yeshivas. He learned in literature yeshivas like Mir, the, the original Mir.

05:10 Speaker 2 Where was Dokshitz? Forgive my ignorance. In today's map.

05:12 Speaker 1 It was like on the border. It was like sometimes Poland, sometimes White Russia.

05:16 Speaker 2 Okay, one of those-

05:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, one of those shifting border-

05:19 Speaker 2 Right

05:19 Speaker 1 ... towns. But it was a very chasidish shtetl. It, um, had five shuls, and four of them were the chasidim, were chasidish shuls, and one of them was more Litvish, Musar shuls.

05:30 Speaker 2 But chasidish not only Lubavitch.

05:32 Speaker 1 Sure.

05:32 Speaker 2 Come in-

05:32 Speaker 1 It had a Chabad shul there, I think. It was all, it was all Chabad chasids.

05:35 Speaker 2 Oh, all Chabad chasids-

05:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

05:36 Speaker 2 ... for shuls. So full of-

05:37 Speaker 1 That's right. But I think there was a Chabad shul there. But it's gone back generations, so-

05:40 Speaker 2 The Gordons are from there, right?

05:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. The Gordons, they were very close. Uh, even after the war, my, my grandfather came to America tav shin ches to visit, and he met Reb Yerachmiel Gordon, and it was a tremendous reunion. And, and yeah, so there was a lot of... Um, my grandfather was a ben a chaben. He was a ben a chaben from a chasid called Reb Zalig Dokshitzer. Who's mentioned as a Chosid of the Alter Rebbe.

06:05 Speaker 2 Hmm.

06:06 Speaker 1 Who's mentioned in Beis Rebbe, and he was buried in Dokshitz.

06:09 Speaker 2 So you go back generations in Dokshitz.

06:11 Speaker 1 So on that, on that side, yes. So he-- Although he wasn't such a full-fledged Lubavitch because he wa- he, he was a Lubavitcher, but he had a very Belzer Hasidic to him, but he'd always laugh at my father. Father was a Gerrari, you know. Lubavitch are Gerraris, right? He would laugh at him that, uh, he's actually more Lubavitch than he is 'cause he goes back all the way to the Alter Rebbe.

06:27 Speaker 2 Your father is, was Nosson Gerrari's brother?

06:31 Speaker 1 Nosson Gerrari from Montreal's brother.

06:32 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes.

06:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

06:33 Speaker 2 When, when we had-

06:34 Speaker 1 Azade was Rabbi Moshe Gerrari.

06:36 Speaker 2 Right. When we had Moshe Gerrari on the podcast who lives today in Toms River, whose zeide was Nosson Gerrari.

06:41 Speaker 1 Right. So-

06:42 Speaker 2 So his brother was your, was your father.

06:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. So N- that, that Moshe Gerrari's father is my first cousin.

06:47 Speaker 2 Right.

06:47 Speaker 1 Right.

06:48 Speaker 2 Right. So your fath- your parents moved back to South Africa 'cause your mother's from there?

06:53 Speaker 1 No. So yes, my mother grew up in South Africa in a very interesting... I mean, there was no-- The, the only Frum-

06:59 Speaker 2 Before the Shluchim came, I imagine.

07:00 Speaker 1 Way before the Shluchim. This is, uh-

07:02 Speaker 2 Right.

07:02 Speaker 1 She went to America to get engaged. It was תש"ח or י' or something.

07:06 Speaker 2 Wow.

07:06 Speaker 1 And, uh, she grew up-

07:07 Speaker 2 And she grew up as a Lubavitcher?

07:09 Speaker 1 So she grew up Bnei Akiva really 'cause there was only Frum Judaism around. But she heard from her father stories, and she was very open to Lubavitch. She wasn't like-

07:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

07:16 Speaker 1 I mean, she, you know, she was c- after she got settled herself a full Lubavitcher, but she knew she came from Chassidim. That was the, that was the background of the family.

07:23 Speaker 2 And your zeide considered himself a Lubavitcher?

07:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, he did. He davened Mesicha Hari. He called him in Hagim. You know, originally he didn't have a beard. Later on he had a beard.

07:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:30 Speaker 1 But yeah, so he, yeah, definitely considered... I mean, as, as he passed away, I found letters that he'd written to the Rebbe updating him on every move that he made in South Africa, like which Rabbonis was happening or what's going on with the Rabbonis and so on. So he considered himself... I mean, he saw the Friediger Rebbe five times. He considered himself a Lubavitcher, but he didn't... The Limud HaChassidus wasn't by him a big thing. He didn't grow up that way.

07:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:53 Speaker 1 And he, uh, he, he was very, he had, you know-

07:56 Speaker 2 Old school Lubavitch didn't have much Chassidus to learn. There was like four sefarim, right?

08:00 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I mean, but still he didn't like, you know, I wouldn't say he, uh, sat with a Likutei Torah or-

08:04 Speaker 2 But I don't think they did. That's my point. I don't think they were-

08:06 Speaker 1 No, the Lubavitcher Chassidim, I mean, my other grandfather, which was the same age, I mean, the same-

08:09 Speaker 2 But your, but your other grandfather was-

08:11 Speaker 1 Was a Musar Chassidus. I mean, he was a-

08:12 Speaker 2 But your other grandfather went to Lubavitch.

08:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:13 Speaker 2 This grandfather you said didn't go to Lubavitch.

08:15 Speaker 1 Right. So it's very-

08:15 Speaker 2 So it's very old school. It's-

08:17 Speaker 1 Exactly. So there were a lot of, um, simpler Chassidim in those days that didn't, weren't steeped in Limud HaChassidus or-

08:22 Speaker 2 Right. The Minhagim was like the main-

08:24 Speaker 1 Minhagim, they would consider themselves Chassidus, Chassidim of the Rebbe. When he had an issue of health in his family-

08:29 Speaker 2 Right

08:29 Speaker 1 ... he would definitely write to the Rebbe.

08:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's very interesting.

08:31 Speaker 1 Ask a bracha. He would, he would be shol eitzes of the Rebbe. He would follow the Rebbe's advice. So in that, in every... But he didn't like to wear a gartel.

08:37 Speaker 2 Right. He didn't wear a gartel.

08:39 Speaker 1 No, because he, he grew up in-- His adult life before he got married was in a, in a Litvish yeshivas.

08:43 Speaker 2 Right. Back in pre-war.

08:45 Speaker 1 Pre-war. He was in, he learned in the Mir, you know, the old, old Mir yeshiva.

08:48 Speaker 2 In Poland, back in Poland.

08:50 Speaker 1 In, in, in Lithuania. He was-

08:51 Speaker 2 In Lithuania. Oh, Mir's in Lithuania. Right.

08:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, he, he learned by Rabbi Ruchom, by Rav Chaim Shmulevitch, who was then known as Chaim Stutienia.

08:57 Speaker 2 Right.

08:57 Speaker 1 He was the, he was the young rosh yeshiva.

08:59 Speaker 2 Right, right.

08:59 Speaker 1 Um, he, he remembered the Finkel's. I mean, it was, you know, he had the, the original.

09:04 Speaker 2 Right.

09:04 Speaker 1 He learned in, he learned in Vilna, Ramailes yeshiva. He learned-

09:07 Speaker 2 And so what happened by the war? He, he came to South Africa before the war?

09:10 Speaker 1 He came before the war. He came two years before the war. He had a brother-in-law that brought him out. Even was start- some people were starting to move to South Africa. South Africa's doors were very open before the war.

09:19 Speaker 2 And a lot of Lithuanian Jews were moving to South Africa, right? That's the main-

09:22 Speaker 1 Volumes. Volumes of them. That's the whole st-

09:24 Speaker 2 German and Lithuanian Jews moved there.

09:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. There was, when I grew up, there was one shtreimel in the entire South Africa.

09:28 Speaker 2 Right.

09:29 Speaker 1 Uh, and I think it's still that way. I don't think there's any shtreimel

09:31 Speaker 2 It's pretty hard for a shtreimel, right?

09:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so I mean, but so he came two years before the war, and then he brought his wife, my mother, who was then four years old, and his father-in-law, my mother's father, uh, my grandmother's father.

09:47 Speaker 2 Wait, he brought his, he brought his wife, your mo- who's four-

09:49 Speaker 1 He, he, his wife, his father-in-law.

09:52 Speaker 2 They were already married?

09:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, yes. He was married to my grandmother, but he, those days that's what happened.

09:55 Speaker 2 You had to, you had to go first and then bring-

09:57 Speaker 1 You had to go first. You had to make a bit of money.

09:58 Speaker 2 Right. Sure.

09:59 Speaker 1 And then send for your family.

10:00 Speaker 2 Right.

10:00 Speaker 1 That's how it used to work, right? So-

10:01 Speaker 2 Always. In America, too.

10:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was all before the war, by the way. After the, after the war, South Africa closed to Yidden. It wasn't so... We didn't have survivors there.

10:08 Speaker 2 During the war or even afterwards?

10:09 Speaker 1 During the war or even afterwards. There was no survivors came to South Africa.

10:12 Speaker 2 They didn't let them in.

10:13 Speaker 1 Not really. It was before the war that they were-

10:14 Speaker 2 Oh, the British. The British didn't let anybody in.

10:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

10:16 Speaker 2 Not to Israel, not to-

10:17 Speaker 1 But South Africa let them all in before the war.

10:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

10:19 Speaker 1 All the Lithuanians, they, they came streaming in.

10:21 Speaker 2 'Cause they, they weren't Yidden then. They were Europeans.

10:23 Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, something like that, I suppose.

10:25 Speaker 2 You had to build up the white population somehow.

10:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll tell you a quick little story. My grandfather came to the Friediger Rebbe תש"ח.

10:32 Speaker 2 Just don't, don't touch this. Yeah.

10:34 Speaker 1 He, he had, he had seen the Friediger Rebbe four times in, back in Europe. Um-

10:40 Speaker 2 In Lithuania. When he made the trip out after Russia?

10:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, he was, yeah, he was, 'cause he learned, he came back to get married before, as he was a choson. He traveled where the Friediger Rebbe was traveling around in Poland at that time.

10:50 Speaker 2 So after the Russia era, yeah.

10:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. After Russia. All after Russia. He only, he saw the Friediger Rebbe the first time he was already a choson.

10:56 Speaker 2 And the Friediger Rebbe came to Lithuania also, I think, a few times.

10:58 Speaker 1 Lithuania, but he came, but he came, but he came to, yeah. So he saw the Friediger Rebbe f- four times. He knew Polish, so one time the Friediger Rebbe came, I think it was to Gluboke maybe, and he helped out in Moskires for a week.

11:09 Speaker 2 Oh.

11:10 Speaker 1 And actually met the Rebbe then, which was known, he was known as the Ramash. And, um, then there was a, a break in the war. There was loss of communication-

11:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

11:17 Speaker 1 ... loss of mail. It was a, it was a very tough time, obviously, even though he was already in South Africa. After the war, af- after he brought my mother and, and, and my grandmother, my great-grandfather, he traveled to America תש"ח. It was a big, in those days, that was considered a very big nisia. He had two pur- he had two intentions. One is to see a half-sister that he had that was a r- living in America already, who had come before the war. And, um, he also wanted to see the Friediger Rebbe. It was a big reunion. He hadn't seen the Friediger Rebbe. He hadn't heard from the Friediger Rebbe, really. And when he was there, a guy called Verwoerd became the prime minister of South Africa. He was the one that introduced p- apartheid. And people knew him as like a bit of a Nazi. Like, I mean, that's, that's the... The apartheid Afrikaners actually had that mentality. So Reb Yefu and Gordon and all these friends he had here in Crown Heights or around here, whenever it was, and

12:04 Speaker 3 Um, they, they said, "You hear it's a mess. You gotta send for your family right away. Go to Europe, or it's gonna be terrible." He says, "Okay, but I've gotta go into the Friediker Rebbe." Like what you asked before, he was a Hasid that way. "I've gotta go into Friediker Rebbe and ask him." Friediker Rebbe was, was older, he touched the face. Friediker wasn't the... The Friediker Rebbe had in Yechidas then, so Rabbi Simpson used to come and-

12:23 Speaker 1 Right

12:23 Speaker 3 ... and interpret what the Friediker was saying 'cause he was hard for him to speak, et cetera. He had already gone to Yechidas. He went into again to Yechidas to ask the Friediker Rebbe this question, whether he should tuck or bring his family, whether they shouldn't think. Friediker looked at him, smiled, made with his hand, and said, "Ah, resembling date."

12:38 Speaker 1 Hmm.

12:39 Speaker 3 So he went. He listened to him back.

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13:44 Speaker 3 The optimistic take on South Africa started nach-

13:47 Speaker 1 Then, then already, yeah. The Friediker Rebbe said-

13:49 Speaker 3 The Friediker Rebbe's times.

13:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. He said it's gonna be fine.

13:51 Speaker 3 Oh.

13:51 Speaker 1 And then they built an amazing kehila there. I mean, it was like, the South African kehila was amazing.

13:56 Speaker 3 So you-

13:56 Speaker 1 Still is, actually

13:57 Speaker 3 ... so he was a-- Yeah.

13:58 Speaker 1 So my mother grew up in that, in that, in, in that era. So she came two weeks before the war. My grandmother, my mother, and my great-grandfather came on a boat. The boat arrived two weeks before the war. That boat was sunk by the Germans on the way back.

14:12 Speaker 3 Wow.

14:13 Speaker 1 So I mean, uh-

14:14 Speaker 3 The last way in.

14:15 Speaker 1 Last way in. Mom was the last one.

14:18 Speaker 3 Wow.

14:18 Speaker 1 And-

14:18 Speaker 3 How did she end up marrying a Gurari?

14:20 Speaker 1 Oh, so what happened was she grew up pretty Bnei Akiva, but always knew she comes from a Hasidisha family. Rabbi Weinberg started coming to South Africa in the late Tof Shins. I think Tof Shin Ches is the first time he came as well.

14:33 Speaker 3 Ari'el Weinberg.

14:34 Speaker 1 Ari'el Weinberg. He came for these shiva. But those days, when he came to South Africa, he would stay there for like weeks or months even.

14:41 Speaker 3 Right.

14:41 Speaker 1 You didn't... There was no hopping into a plane and-

14:43 Speaker 3 No. For-

14:43 Speaker 1 Right

14:43 Speaker 3 ... like four flights at least probably.

14:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he came, he stayed for a while. My grandfather ended up being the one to help him. They became very, very close.

14:50 Speaker 3 Hmm.

14:51 Speaker 1 He came again two years later. He was in South Africa. About Yossele Weinberg, just a bit of the Babish history. He, he was, I mean, he was a, he was one of the Polish Bacharim that came. He was very close-

15:00 Speaker 3 Sure

15:00 Speaker 1 ... to the Friediker Rebbe and the Rebbe afterwards. Um, he was in South Africa, Yut Shvat.

15:07 Speaker 3 Huh. He missed Yut Shvat.

15:08 Speaker 1 He missed Yut Shvat. A, a telegram came to the house to let everyone know about these talkus. The Fried-- My grandfather was then like one of the representatives as Chabad in South Africa, even the Friediker Rebbe's times. Uh, him and another guy, another Hasid called Rabbi Sholoch Hazdan. And, um-

15:23 Speaker 3 Oh, I know, I know some of their grandkids.

15:25 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hazdan. Yeah, yeah.

15:26 Speaker 3 They're, they're-- They go back as that far as well.

15:27 Speaker 1 Yes. Rabbi Sholoch Hazdan was from Hummel.

15:30 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

15:30 Speaker 1 And he came... The whole story, he married a, a South African girl afterwards when he came, and, uh, they grew up in South Africa. So a telegram came. He, he-- My grandmother called my grandfather, who was at the beis din. She says, "You better come back. I don't know what's happening to Rabbi Weinberg. He's walking around in socks. He's, he's crying. He's, he's, he's, he's..." So they get, and they all, you know, they got to know about it. But he was there. So they became very, very close. Um, eventually it come, came time for my, my mother to look for a shidduch, so Rabbi Weinberg said, "Why don't you come and, and we'll try and help?"

16:03 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

16:03 Speaker 1 So she came to... She came then it was, at the beginning it was, it was Tof Shin Yud Dalet, tes vav, something like that. And, um, she had never seen the Rebbe, the Friediker Rebbe, oso not, but she, she went to Yechidas and, and the Rebbe knew about-

16:17 Speaker 3 Girls would go into Yechidas by themselves?

16:20 Speaker 1 By the Rebbe, yeah, yeah.

16:21 Speaker 3 And not only when they were married or getting married?

16:23 Speaker 1 No, no, they would go if, if... And no. But I think she went with her grandma. No, she came with her mother.

16:27 Speaker 3 Okay, that makes more sense.

16:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I think they would go anyway.

16:29 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah?

16:29 Speaker 1 I believe so, yeah. I think it was, it was unlocked or whatever the... Yeah, but yeah.

16:32 Speaker 3 No, I'm not worried about Yichud.

16:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

16:34 Speaker 3 It's more a question of, like, I just never heard that younger girls-

16:38 Speaker 1 Well, she was a makor. I mean, she was over 20 really. I mean, she was-

16:41 Speaker 3 Right. No, I'm saying like, like the same way Bacharim wouldn't, girls would also go in. Well, when would they go in? By their birthday?

16:46 Speaker 1 I don't know. Not-- She came from overseas, I guess. And, and-

16:48 Speaker 3 Ah, as like an overseas guest

16:50 Speaker 1 ... I guess so. I'm not 100% sure.

16:51 Speaker 3 Interesting.

16:52 Speaker 1 So Rabbi Weinberg thought... Sorry. Rabbi, Rabbi, Rabbi Weinberg thought that maybe she should marry like a more modern Bachar without a beard. You know, those days beards were considered a crazy thing.

17:03 Speaker 3 Yes.

17:04 Speaker 1 That time in America it was like unheard of to wear a beard.

17:06 Speaker 3 Yes. Even, even Lubavitch itself.

17:08 Speaker 1 Even Lubavitch. So maybe he thought that's type of Bachar, and it didn't work really. So he said to her once, "Do you-- Are you interested in meeting a Bachar with a beard?" So she said, "Let's give it a try." And that was my, my father. My fa- It came from two worlds. It was-

17:20 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying

17:21 Speaker 1 ... it was an amazing shidduch, and they had a beautiful marriage.

17:23 Speaker 3 Your father grew up in, in Tel Aviv, right?

17:25 Speaker 1 Correct. And he never learned the word L'mod L'chol in his life. And he, and he, he came from Rabbi Shugary's house, and he came from Chasidim. I mean, Tel Aviv at that time was a very Chasidish-

17:34 Speaker 3 Shaul Brook and-

17:35 Speaker 1 Shaul Brook was his Rebbe throughout, throughout his formative years.

17:38 Speaker 3 Right.

17:38 Speaker 1 Um, he knew Rav Folekan. He knew the... I mean, all the guys, all Chevre, right? All big names.

17:42 Speaker 3 Yeah. He grew up with... I don't know. He was probably younger than Reb Yael, or was he the same?

17:45 Speaker 1 He was a bit younger. My, my uncle Nosson was-

17:47 Speaker 3 But he grew up, grew up in that-

17:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. He knew Reb Yael very well.

17:50 Speaker 3 Right.

17:50 Speaker 1 Um, um, but, but he, his, his brother was Reb Yael's contemporary, yeah, Nosson.

17:55 Speaker 3 Right.

17:55 Speaker 1 He was a bit older than my father. So that was the world he came from or-

17:58 Speaker 3 They came together to 77. They're on the same boat.

18:01 Speaker 1 Reb Yael and Nosson came, yeah.

18:02 Speaker 3 Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:03 Speaker 1 It was part of a chutz of six that the Friediker Rebbe had said they should come separately 'cause- 'Cause of my father, because my-- it wouldn't be nice for my grandmother. It would be hard for her two sons to go at the same time.

18:13 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

18:13 Speaker 1 That's why, uh, Riestov and, and my uncle Nelson came was y- just after Yeshivat.

18:17 Speaker 3 Right.

18:18 Speaker 1 And then, and then became apparent that the rest should come anyway, and my father came 5750.

18:26 Speaker 3 Wow.

18:27 Speaker 1 So he met... This was-- And he learned here for a few years, and then he went out with my mother. They were two completely different worlds, but it clicked.

18:34 Speaker 3 Amazing.

18:34 Speaker 1 And they had an, an amazing marriage. And, um, because my mother was from South Africa, they ended up-

18:39 Speaker 3 Did he ever, did he ever learn English?

18:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, he spoke English.

18:41 Speaker 3 With a South African accent?

18:43 Speaker 1 With a-- not a South African accent, with a-

18:44 Speaker 3 But he learned English in South Africa.

18:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he, but he s-still couldn't say some of the syllables or some of the, you know, the-

18:49 Speaker 3 That's amazing.

18:50 Speaker 1 And, uh, he never learned how to spell. That was a, a family joke.

18:54 Speaker 3 Mamish.

18:54 Speaker 1 He could never-- He used to spell, misspell everything.

18:56 Speaker 3 And what, what, he was a businessman or-

18:58 Speaker 1 So an interesting story. He, he asked the Rebbe at that time. My fa-my father also was a

19:06 Speaker 3 The Gurary family.

19:29 Speaker 1 The Gurary family, exactly. I, I didn't-

19:31 Speaker 3 Moshe Gurary was a businessman?

19:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. He wasn't from the big businessmen, the Gurarys, but Nelson Gurary was a very big businessman. Moshe Gurary was a business... Yeah, he'd, he would-

19:38 Speaker 3 Nelson Gurary, your, your uncle.

19:39 Speaker 1 My, no, my great, my great-grandfather.

19:40 Speaker 3 Your great-grandfather.

19:41 Speaker 1 Moshe, Moshe's father.

19:42 Speaker 3 Right.

19:43 Speaker 1 Um-

19:43 Speaker 3 How does that connect to, uh, the famous, uh, Shmuel Gurary?

19:45 Speaker 1 So there were three brothers. Nelson Gurary, Shmuel Gurary, and Menachem Mendel Gurary, who was the father of the Rashag.

19:51 Speaker 3 Ah.

19:51 Speaker 1 Shmuel Gurary and Nelson Gurary. All the Gurarys today, like Zalman Gurary, Shmuel Gurary, they're all from Moshe's. They're all from Nelson Gurary.

19:57 Speaker 3 They're all from Nelson Gurary.

19:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

19:59 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

20:00 Speaker 1 Um, s-but the Meisels couldn't get a visa unless he became a rabbi and a teacher.

20:06 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

20:06 Speaker 1 So he did in the beginning. I, I mean, the Rebbe knew about it, and, and that was the way he can get in. And the Rebbe was so spot on because rabbonis was not for him. He hated it.

20:15 Speaker 3 Not for him.

20:17 Speaker 1 And after seven years, it fell apart. He was a Right. But the, is it-- I mean, this is a little bit off topic, but not really. There's a, there's a legend that I heard in yeshiva about your s- your, your, this would be your, it would be your Zayde, right? Moshe Gurary was your Zayde.

23:11 Speaker 3 Yeah.

23:12 Speaker 1 Um, he came for and he said they didn't understand anything. They just got the, the amazing, like, kochak. So this kind of like-

25:20 Speaker 4 Impression of

25:20 Speaker 1 ... yeah, it was just made a tremendous impact on them. And now later, he, he, he learnt more by him. But-

25:25 Speaker 4 Right

25:26 Speaker 1 ... um, so the Rebbe said to him an amazing line. The Rebbe said to him, "Farshayn darfn, abber men darf nisht veln farshayn." You have to understand, but you don't have to want to understand.

25:40 Speaker 4 Hmm.

25:41 Speaker 1 In other words, I guess it's like the Right

26:17 Speaker 4 ... which includes your brain.

26:36 Speaker 1 So in other words, I can be totally bittul to the HaShem. That is the foundation. Um, I-

26:43 Speaker 4 And, and I should be happy with that

26:44 Speaker 1 ... and I should be happy with that, and I'm fine with that, but that's not what the HaShem wants. But then you, what you've done is you've ignored part of you is not serving the HaShem, i.e. your brain is not serving the HaShem.

26:52 Speaker 4 Right.

26:53 Speaker 1 Um-

26:54 Speaker 4 To want to understand would indicate that you're not satisfied with, with, with, with just acceptance.

27:02 Speaker 1 Right. Right. And the foundation, if you just go... It's a little bit like the Rebbe explains in-

27:06 Speaker 4 But actually we don't have to wanna understand. It doesn't say

27:09 Speaker 1 Men darf nisht veln farshayn, always.

27:11 Speaker 4 Men darf nisht veln farshayn. Oh, you mustn't. Okay.

27:15 Speaker 1 You mustn't want to understand, I guess, as a condition for going all the way. You have to go all the way if you understand or not, 'cause the foundation is

27:24 Speaker 4 Ah, interesting.

27:25 Speaker 1 But, but you must understand because, because that's, because you've gotta serve the HaShem with every part of you. It's a little bit, I think-

27:31 Speaker 4 But if you want to understand, that could end up being a limitation on, on, on going all the way.

27:36 Speaker 1 On your bittul, on your Kabbalah soul, on your, on your commitment, on your surrender.

27:38 Speaker 4 'Cause you're constantly s- you're constantly saying, "I, I wanna understand what's going on." Like-

27:42 Speaker 1 In other words, you're making the differences, like the things I understand will make it easier for me to serve HaShem with other things. Like a mitzvah that I understand, for example, or a concept that I understand will make it easier then to, to do or to engage in.

27:54 Speaker 4 That's such, you know, it's, it's such an interesting, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's such a foundational-

27:59 Speaker 1 Very foundational

28:00 Speaker 4 ... thing. Um, th- 'cause Chassidus on one hand is all about grappling with understanding, and y- you can easily go down the rabbit hole of, of, you know, philosophizing, where-

28:12 Speaker 1 Yes

28:12 Speaker 4 ... you get carried away with your mind.

28:13 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. I think that's, I think it's-

28:15 Speaker 4 And, and, and the Rebbe also spent ti- a lot of time thinking and understanding.

28:18 Speaker 1 100%.

28:18 Speaker 4 Right?

28:19 Speaker 1 I think it's b- it's a misconception time, sometimes because people say Chabad Chassidus, that's all about understanding, right?

28:24 Speaker 4 Right.

28:25 Speaker 1 We actually, I think n- you need to reframe that statement. It's not about understanding. It's about taking that which is higher than understanding-

28:30 Speaker 4 Right

28:30 Speaker 1 ... and bringing it into understanding.

28:32 Speaker 4 Right.

28:32 Speaker 1 It's about both.

28:32 Speaker 4 It's about also understanding.

28:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, because you gotta bring-

28:35 Speaker 4 That, yeah

28:35 Speaker 1 ... you gotta take your foundational transcendent emunah-

28:39 Speaker 4 Right

28:39 Speaker 1 ... and then translate it into understanding, which was the, the Rebbe explains is the Chiddush of Chabad Chassidus. It's taking the emunah of the Bashemtah, which is higher than sekhel, and bringing it into sekhel. S- but actually the starting point is the emunah.

28:53 Speaker 4 Right.

28:53 Speaker 1 Not, not the sekhel.

28:54 Speaker 4 Right.

28:54 Speaker 1 Um, I think it's a little bit like the Rebbe explains the famous sicha about matzah and chametz. Like, if matzah's so bad, then why is chametz a mitzvah? I mean, if chametz is so bad, then why is chametz a mitzvah seven weeks later, right?

29:05 Speaker 4 Right.

29:05 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe says the same thing. You have to clean yourself out from everything, surrender everything, become nothing, no yeshes, no you, no self. That's the foundation. Once you've done that, then within that context, you've gotta introduce everything that you have, your sekhel, your middos, everything.

29:20 Speaker 4 Hmm. It's, it's, it's a vort. Uh, did your grandfather or your father ever like, ever ex- like, expound on that vort, or it's just a family tradition and-

29:29 Speaker 1 No, it's, it's, a, it's a story that's around. I mean, people know the story. It's, it's, a-

29:32 Speaker 4 No, but what, did they ever expound on what it meant to, what it meant to your grandfather, what it meant to your father? Or just-

29:38 Speaker 1 No

29:38 Speaker 4 ... that's what the Rebbe said, and figure it out on your own?

29:40 Speaker 1 My, my father, by nature, wasn't a huge schmoozer in that way. Like-

29:45 Speaker 4 Yeah

29:45 Speaker 1 ... I mean, he would talk concepts of Chassidus. He was a big Yekke Shomer, big Talmud Chacham. He'll, he encouraged us to learn all the time. But, uh, he wasn't that kind of, like, he wouldn't go through these things and talk about them and schmooze them and analyze them. It wasn't his style.

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31:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, a lot. I mean-

31:15 Speaker 4 Who did he speak to? Or just learned by himself?

31:18 Speaker 1 He learned by himself a lot. I mean, later when the shluchim came, he had a few people that he became quite close to.

31:22 Speaker 4 Mm.

31:23 Speaker 1 Um, my father was also big bal nigleh. He loved nigleh.

31:27 Speaker 4 Mm.

31:28 Speaker 1 Um, but he learned Chassidus. I remember growing up, he learned, uh, I mean, first of all, for him, Minhagi Chabad and his Chassidus was like he didn't eat breakfast before he finished Chitas, and-

31:39 Speaker 4 Hmm

31:39 Speaker 1 ... like that was the thing, and he learned it very, very slowly.

31:43 Speaker 4 Was Chitas something that was a big deal, like, in the old gen-- like, the Friediker Rebbe's times? Was it such a-- 'cause the Rebbe for sure, like, stories about-

31:49 Speaker 1 It's interesting. I don't know that, but I think-- But my father, uh, uh, my father's emphasis on, on Chitas would've been from the Rebbe because he-

31:57 Speaker 4 Right

31:57 Speaker 1 ... you have to understand, he was from the bachurim that spent the first five years with the Rebbe. Like, those were-

32:02 Speaker 4 Hardcore

32:03 Speaker 1 ... hardcore years there. And the, also the yachas to the bachur was a very small crowd. There was a very individual relationship with the bachur.

32:11 Speaker 4 Right. I mean, if you think about it, uh, the, the, that first year, you know, every, every bachur pretty much in yeshiva l- at some point is introduced to learning the Sichos of Tav Shin Yud, right?

32:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

32:21 Speaker 4 Um, I just imagine the bachurim there, y-like if, I don't know if, you know, I don't know if it's a Chassidish way to ex-to, to describe it this way, but the Rebbe's, like, working out his emotions in public, like vis-a-vis the Friediker Rebbe. Like, he's talking extremely, extremely personal things of how he's relating to the Friediker Rebbe. Like, he's-

32:40 Speaker 1 Right

32:40 Speaker 4 ... it, it, it's, it's very-

32:41 Speaker 1 From what I understand from my father, they, they related more to... They didn't see it as someone working through their emotions. They saw it as a Rebbe. My father once told me a loshon, and he said-

32:49 Speaker 4 But the Rebbe didn't speak that way later on.

32:52 Speaker 1 Right. But yeah, I mean...

32:53 Speaker 4 No, that's what I mean. I don't, I d-

32:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. Correct. Correct. No, I understand

32:55 Speaker 4 ... I don't mean it in a disrespectful way. I mean it that the Rebbe's speaking, he was speaking about himself a lot, about the way he-

33:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, but maybe because that was the, the, the time to do that. I mean-

33:05 Speaker 4 That's what I'm saying. It was a very, it was a u-- Like, it didn't happen again. They were the ones present to it. No one else was.

33:09 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, there were Sichos later that, you know, the Rebbe spoke, especially around the din of nazak story that-

33:14 Speaker 4 Right

33:14 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe spoke about, you know, become the Rebbe's more here and now, not less here, all these type of things. So he kind of re-revisited some of those concepts. But, but you're right. I mean, those were Sichos that were like... I mean, my father was balefor brayng with the Rebbe's sidder first maamar, like-

33:27 Speaker 4 I was about to bring up that first maamar.

33:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

33:28 Speaker 4 I mean, listen to that first maamar and the, and the Rebbe's, the Rebbe's wrestling with something inside. You know, if y-if people wanna say, "We don't wanna go, we don't wanna think too much about it," I respect, I respect the d-the distance that people wanna keep to it. But you ca-- Like, you listen to it, it's a very, very personal... It's almost hard to listen to how-

33:46 Speaker 1 It is

33:47 Speaker 4 ... personal it is

33:47 Speaker 1 ... it's just, I mean, I think we just don't look at the Rebbe as a regular boss of it. I mean, obviously, he's a human being, but he, but you know, I don't think struggling or talking about emotions is the same as we would talk about our emotions. That's what I'm saying. But-

33:57 Speaker 4 Well, I mean, uh, if I could press you on that a little bit, what's, what's the danger if, uh, to, to, to, to steel man the argument on your side of it, what's the danger of a Hasid seeing the Rebbe as someone wrestling with emotions?

34:14 Speaker 1 I think the general danger, danger of making the Rebbe, like, one of us, just a better human being, like-

34:22 Speaker 4 Uh-huh

34:22 Speaker 1 ... and the Rebbe is very clear in, in, in, in different places. I mean, I mean, it's, uh, a kind of, to me, it's an obvious idea, but Rebbe spells it out in a maamar of Likbei Torah that the, the chiluk between Rebbe and Hasid is, is ein ha'reuch. It's not like-

34:36 Speaker 4 Right

34:36 Speaker 1 ... he's a human being like me. He struggles with the same thing like me. He just does it better than me. You know? It's, it's an ein ha'reuch relationship.

34:43 Speaker 4 Yeah. I, I think the famous vort was, I think Rabbe Elazar far, far bring about this a lot, and I think he quoted from another Hasid, like the, the vort from the Ramak, that more than the ein ha'reuch from atzilus to taasiya is ein ha'reuch from atzilus to ayin saf.

34:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:57 Speaker 4 And he would say the same thing, that more than the ein ha'reuch from the cat to me is ein ha'reuch from me to the, to the Rebbe or so-

35:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

35:04 Speaker 4 You heard such a vort before?

35:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, I have. Yeah, I have. Um, um, yeah.

35:06 Speaker 4 Yeah. So I mean, this for sure. I, I just... But, but, but the, uh, therefore what? Therefore, if there's a public, if there's a public wrestling with, with, with, with, with, with emotion, w-

35:19 Speaker 1 So I don't-

35:20 Speaker 4 What, what, what's that, what are we supposed to-

35:21 Speaker 1 The way I take it-

35:21 Speaker 4 ... what are we supposed to do with that? Just it's, it's, it's, it's like, uh-

35:25 Speaker 1 Well, we have to know that things are-

35:26 Speaker 4 ... history/Hashem?

35:26 Speaker 1 So no. So there's, there's... We can learn from it, and we can learn Hashkafa from it. You know, there's a Sicha at the end of Chavsei Shvat, the end of the shiva, where the Rebbe does almost like a similar thing. He talks about the tkufas of aveilus and how you go from one to the other, and how it's hard and... But look at it, so yeah, on face value, it's, it's written that way, and so you can certainly learn. You can learn maybe how we are supposed to apply it. But to say that the Rebbe's going through what I would understand it in my human context, I, I, I don't think so. It's, it's something, something much greater happening and something happening on a completely different level.

36:03 Speaker 4 But what's the difference between if we're, if we try to understand the maamar of the Rebbe, we're also pl- we're also fooling ourselves-

36:09 Speaker 1 Oh, so-

36:09 Speaker 4 ... on some level

36:10 Speaker 1 ... no, correct

36:10 Speaker 4 We're also saying that we understand, we understand the maamar, but we d-we don't understand anything. Like, uh, you know, uh, the same way students thought they understood Basse LeGani, and then the Rebbe spent 40 years showing how nobody understood a word of Basse LeGani. So w-we're always kind of playing a game where we're, we're ma-- like we're, it's almost this game of making a-

36:29 Speaker 1 'Cause we have to, we have to learn and understand things as best we can on our level, but at the same time to remember that it's not, it's not in a human context like us. It's knowing that it's ein ha'reuch. Although we... You're right. So we understand in Basse LeGani, we think we understand it, then we know we don't understand it. I mean, now still don't understand it 'cause it's probably so much more. So we know that there's so much, it's so much more there, but we understand it. We, we, we understand. We can understand. What's taught to us, we understand as best we can.

36:54 Speaker 4 And so when the Rebbe's expressing an emotion, it's not a, a teaching the same way?

37:01 Speaker 1 Look, the Rebbe is a tzaddik gome from Tanya, so, so-

37:04 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

37:04 Speaker 1 ... he has no, he doesn't have the same struggle that we have. So it, it must be, it must be in a different context.

37:09 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm. No, I, I'm not, I'm not-- Like, no, it's-- I, I'm not... I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, uh, I'm trying t- it's not even a matter of, of, of, of, of, if, if I feel that way, I'm just trying to understand the argument. I-it's, it's beginning to make more sense to me. You're, what you're suggesting is, is that, that the idea of, of, of, of, of, you know, the whole idea of a Rebbe teaching a, a, a Talmid, especially according to Chassidus of, with the inner, with the idea of inner reach is, is itself a massive accomplishment, right? The whole, all the Mashalim of Rav and Talmid and the inner reach between them. And you're saying that it's one thing when it's an idea. Yeah, the, the Rebbe's communicating idea, and you understand the Mashal, maybe you don't understand the Nimshal, but you understand the, the Rebbe's able to make you understand the Pratem of the, of the Nimshal in the Mashal and all the things Chassidus explains about that communication. Where at-- But, but somehow over there, but, but over there also, you could say that the Rebbe, if a, a Tzadik has Sechel Aloki, not messed up by, by the Sechel of Neshamah Bahamis. It's Sechel of Kedushah. So, uh, like it's the same inner reach as, as, as a Midas, no? It's the same inner reach as an-

38:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, so we'll try to understand it the way it's written, but what's really going on, I don't know. I want-- What I want to say is the Rebbe's struggling with something, 'cause that's-

38:26 Speaker 4 Oh, so you don't like the word struggling?

38:28 Speaker 1 No, it's like, it's like saying, it's like he struggles, I struggle. No, it's not like that.

38:32 Speaker 4 Hmm.

38:32 Speaker 1 It, it's something different, something like-

38:34 Speaker 4 That's right. Well, like, uh-

38:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, throughout the years, the Rebbe was upset about certain things. Uh, absolutely, but, but what, I don't know what that means.

38:40 Speaker 4 But, but, but for example, in Yeshiva, uh, you tell me if I'm pushing this too far. I-i in Yeshiva, for example, like, there, there was always a talk of, you know, the Rebbe would go and spend time with his mother every day, and the tea, or even, you know, when you get older and you hear from your Chassid teacher that the Rebbe would say that the half hour he had tea with the Rebbetzin was, was his most important or most precious time of the day or something to that effect. You're learning something from the way he interacted with his mother, with his wife, right? So why can we learn from that and not learn from-

39:15 Speaker 1 No, we, we, we could. We can learn from it. You can learn from that. Like I'm saying, like the Rebbe, I heard that Sicha where the Rebbe spoke about the different stages of Aveilus, for example. You could learn from that. But what I wouldn't go as far as to say that, you know, I go through those stages when I lost my parents and, and the Rebbe was going through the same stages. I don't think so. Like, I don't know what the Rebbe was going through. But I can learn from what he's telling us and teaching us, of course, 'cause it's a rof as.

39:37 Speaker 4 Uh-huh. Something to think about. To think about it. So but, so I think this leads us to, uh, this leads us to something you were talking about before we started recording, which was, I, I think it, I think it's gonna lead us back into it.

39:51 Speaker 1 Okay.

39:52 Speaker 4 The difference between psychology and Chassidus, 'cause that's pretty much what, what you're, what, what you kind of fell back into with this, with this tangent we just had, where there's a, there's a, a, a tendency, uh, or there's, there, there, there's a, there's a growing trend of trying to find a language and a vocabulary that's been built up in, in other schools of psychology and self-help and so on, and to use that to understand Chassidus. And I think your kind of insistence on the inner reach is, is, is of a, is of a, is of a pattern here.

40:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:25 Speaker 4 Yes. Am I, am I correct?

40:26 Speaker 1 Yes. So, so let me give you a bit of context if, if I can.

40:29 Speaker 4 Yes, of course. Of course.

40:31 Speaker 1 So first of all, I, I... You know, sometimes people do that, and someone will say, "No, it doesn't. It's Chassidus and that," but they don't know anything about psychology either, right?

40:40 Speaker 4 Right.

40:41 Speaker 1 I feel somewhat a bit more qualified to talk about it because I actually do know the psychology part of it, right? Because in the work I do, I do a lot of personal growth lecturing, as I said before, and I-

40:50 Speaker 4 Within, within your framework as a Shliach or separate?

40:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm a Shliach. Um, what, the way it started was that I started giving Shiurim on personal growth topics like relationships, like, like, like, um, self-growth, like anger management, like, uh, um, communication, uh, you know, all these types of things, right? Um, and then eventually leading even to mental health issues. First of all, I, I, I like these ideas and, and, and I also like seeing what's out there and what is Torah's view, right? So I started to do that a lot. So I, I, I'm familiar with a lot of literature. I'm familiar with the, the trauma stuff and the self-esteem stuff and, and, you know, all these different things that are happening, and I, I kind of stay up to date because I, I... it's important for me to actually know what's going on out there in terms of, you know, what people are doing with that vis-a-vis Chassidus. So just a bit of background. So no, so because, the reason why I did that eventually, uh, originally in my work was because there was an unbelievable framework to bring people to Shiurim that wouldn't go, wouldn't dream of going to a Shiur.

41:50 Speaker 4 Right.

41:50 Speaker 1 But they found it relevant because I'm talking about relationships, I'm talking about things that are, that are relevant to them, right? Relevance is a very big thing-

41:57 Speaker 4 Yes

41:58 Speaker 1 ... in, uh, in, in education, particularly if you wanna bring people closer to a-

42:02 Speaker 4 Uh, in life. In life.

42:03 Speaker 1 In life generally, yeah.

42:03 Speaker 4 Yeah.

42:05 Speaker 1 Now, obviously, we believe everything in Torah is relevant, but for a person that doesn't have that background-

42:09 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

42:09 Speaker 1 ... they need, like, tangible relevance in terms of their day-to-day contemporary issues that they're dealing with, right? So I did that and, and, but... And, and even sometimes I'll even take a book that's out there, not, not a Torah book necessarily, and base a series on the book. But what I'll do is I'll bring where is Alpi Torah, where Torah already has this concept before, and where it's, where it's against Torah. And these aren't, these are, mm, secular people, but they've got used to me, and they trust me, and they don't mind if I'll take a concept that's out there and bash it up because it's just not according to Jewish thought, right?

42:41 Speaker 4 Pro ayahuasca or anti-ayahuasca? I'm just kidding.

42:44 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Let's leave that. I've spoken about that. We'll leave that, we'll leave that as a discussion.

42:48 Speaker 4 Just kidding.

42:49 Speaker 1 So, so, um, so all of that stuff. So then I realized what's happening is there's a lot out there, and the world of the... So there's a tendency that's become very, very prevalent to take a new modality or a new approach in psychology, whatever the case is, or in personal growth or in self-help, and suddenly to say, "Oh, that's-- I'm gonna use that terminology now to explain Tanya."

43:15 Speaker 4 Right.

43:15 Speaker 1 Right? So-

43:17 Speaker 4 Where do you think that comes from?

43:18 Speaker 1 Sorry?

43:18 Speaker 4 Where do you think that comes from?

43:19 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll tell you why I think where, where, where it's coming from, I think. It comes from a m- a mistaken notion and a struggle that people have, which I think we should address because it's actually a really important topic, that Chassidus talks too high and it's not relatable, it's not talking to the person.

43:35 Speaker 4 Right.

43:36 Speaker 1 Now, suddenly I come and I explain Tanya. So to give you an example, there's a modality out there called IFS, Internal Family Systems, which has become very, very popular.

43:45 Speaker 4 I had a feeling you would bring that one up.

43:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I heard a podcast, uh, I'm not gonna talk about names now, that's not relevant, but that person was very, very passionate about it. I'm not saying, by the way, it's such a bad modality necessarily, but, but that's what Tanya is talking about.

44:01 Speaker 4 Yeah.

44:01 Speaker 1 That is Tanya.

44:02 Speaker 4 Yes, I think I heard that podcast too.

44:04 Speaker 1 Okay. So I got a couple of things, first of all. F- a couple of comments, right? First of all, the Chassidus of the Alter Rebbe was not that he came first.

44:12 Speaker 4 Right.

44:12 Speaker 1 Right? He talks Tanya, different language. Uh, the, I've forgotten the author of IFS, but the founder always talks, talks IFS. And then, and then... But, but the Alter Rebbe had it before, so he was, he was very great 'cause he came up with it before, right? There are many things in, in psychology, legitimate things that taka, Torah came first, 'cause Torah Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story, as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonial, Torah Umesorah, and Atalathan, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast.

50:04 Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, it, it look, it comes back to what we're t- what, what I was wrestling with earlier, um, uh, whi- which is this, this, this question of NRH. I think, I think in many ways that's, that could be the foundation of it, um, where-

50:17 Speaker 1 So this is a secular key.

50:19 Speaker 4 Right.

50:19 Speaker 1 And therefore it's inner ache.

50:20 Speaker 4 And it leaves us in a way almost in... Therefore, it leaves us always hungry in a certain sense. Um, although on the other, on the other hand, you know, like Gemara says that there are some things that the more you feed it, the more hungry it gets.

50:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:33 Speaker 4 And there are some things that the more hungry, the more, the more you starve it, the, the, the more full it gets.

50:38 Speaker 1 The more full, yeah.

50:38 Speaker 4 Right? And, and there's something about-- And I think it's also sometimes typed in the Ruchnius echo as well. I don't remember exactly. But in this, in this context, like it could be the fact that Hasidus reminds you again and again how little you understand that that puts your mind in its place. Like the story, the beautiful story you said of your grandfather earlier. But on a, on a basic level, you know, the, it's very hard to live in a world where you're, you're, you're constantly talking a language that, that just not even goes over your head. T- e- the little bit of it that goes into your head tells you that it's completely beyond you. And, and so people are, are, are, are sh- are looking for a way to i- to, to, to, to integrate it and a way to make it feel relevant. How I see it though is it's more, it's not so much an issue of mis... I, I see it more push it on a like the problem is translation, and the problem is language, but I see it on a more basic level. Not that we're missing a, a, a language or a framework like I- IFS or something else. We're push it missing the, the, the, the work that was done by, by Hasidim in old generations of translating it, the ideas of Hasidus, but translating it into their, into their spoken language. We haven't done that in Eng- in English, and I, I think that is a-

52:00 Speaker 1 So maybe, and, and maybe like to, to use a Hasidush sort of framework is that's kind of, you know, you learn the mind, and then there's the fabrikan afterwards.

52:07 Speaker 4 Right.

52:07 Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? We're-

52:08 Speaker 4 We're missing that culture that, that assimilates ideas into-

52:12 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:12 Speaker 4 ... into lived experience.

52:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So maybe. And, and, and maybe that needs to be done more. That's, that's true. Now that's correct.

52:18 Speaker 4 But you can do that without borrowing from IFS.

52:21 Speaker 1 No. Yes, you don't have to borrow. No.

52:22 Speaker 4 You can... You have to build a culture around the ideas that, that, that begin to make them come alive in a lived way.

52:29 Speaker 1 And then, and then what happens is that the, the danger of all this is that sometimes what ha- the, the, the reality is that a lot of the... I, I have a lecture that I've done, a, a personal growth lecture that I've done to bring out a real Torah point. That's why I do it that way. But... And I call it, um, Freud, Viktor Frankl, and Brené Brown.

52:52 Speaker 4 Right.

52:52 Speaker 1 What, what's the idea?

52:53 Speaker 4 But the Rebbe's pro Viktor Frankl.

52:54 Speaker 1 Yes, exactly. No, so that's my point. My point is-

52:57 Speaker 4 I meant that a little bit sarcastically, but whatever.

53:00 Speaker 1 No, but no, but I mean, not truly the Rebbe was. The Rebbe held, Rebbe was like this because even in the world of psychology, psychology has its place. There's those perspectives of psychology that are Al Pi Torah, and there's On Pi Torah. Now, that's a good example. Let's talk about Viktor Frankl, for example. So Freud got it wrong. He didn't understand the neshamah. He honestly just thought that, uh, the person was just at, at his core, just a, a maltaiba, basically, right?

53:20 Speaker 4 Right.

53:20 Speaker 1 Okay. Came along Viktor Frankl and introduced with great difficulties. We know the famous stories about, about his almost giving up.

53:27 Speaker 4 Right.

53:27 Speaker 1 Where he talked about living for a life, a live, a life of meaning, living a life where you go out of yourself, something higher than yourself, et cetera, et cetera. Now, that's a philosophy that is Al Pi Torah. It's not Torah. You don't make berakhah Torah when you read Man's Search for Meaning, right?

53:40 Speaker 4 That, that was my sarcasm.

53:41 Speaker 1 Yes.

53:42 Speaker 4 That was my sarcasm.

53:42 Speaker 1 No, 'cause the verse like this, is there's a huge difference between Al Pi Torah and Torah. I mean, Viktor Frankl himself, when he talks about meaning, although in his writings, he, he, he agrees that religion is a really good way to live a life of meaning, but he says it's not limited to religion, right?

53:56 Speaker 4 Yeah. It's one way.

53:57 Speaker 1 It's one way.

53:58 Speaker 4 Right.

53:58 Speaker 1 Al Pi Torah, there's only one way of meaning, and that's Al Pi Torah, right?

54:01 Speaker 4 And even Al Pi Torah, meaning is not for the sake of meaning. Meaning is, is truth.

54:06 Speaker 1 Right. Truth and connection to HaShem.

54:07 Speaker 4 It's, it's not to give you... It's not there to make you feel-

54:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

54:10 Speaker 4 ... fulfilled.

54:11 Speaker 1 Content, correct. So but nevertheless, the Rebbe pushed it as a therapy, and when you need therapy, that is the one we should really be looking at, right? The world's gone away from that now because Viktor Frankl gave birth to a lot of other philosophies like CBT and positive psychology, blah, blah, which were all following his shita to some degree, right? And they were very positive. When I first started giving these lectures, this, that was more the style. And I used to make jokes to my shiurim, and, uh, and they would come up with different theories, and I would say, "You know, it's a real pity that, uh, they didn't ask me before they did the study because I would've shown them where it's in the Zohar or it's in the, in Torah. It could've saved all the money," right? But nowadays, it's shifted. We've become a very self-centered world.

54:48 Speaker 4 Brené Brown.

54:49 Speaker 1 Brené Brown and, and the, the, the, the kadima, right? And it's all about me now. It's about my authentic truth and my this and my that, right?

54:58 Speaker 4 Right.

54:59 Speaker 1 It's very different. They've gone away from... Recently, I read some other studies-

55:03 Speaker 4 Is that a return to Freud?

55:04 Speaker 1 A, a little bit because it's a return to pre-- I don't know if it's Freud per se, but it's a return to pre-Frankl world. And I'll tell you why I say that. I just recently came across interviews on YouTube, fascinating stuff from Viktor Frankl, which I didn't know existed. Um, and he be- he bemoans a world to which he responded to by coming up with his logotherapy and search for meaning and so on. And today's world now has gone back to that world that he's talking about, just on steroids.

55:33 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

55:34 Speaker 1 Even worse. In other words, the whole self-centeredness and the whole lack of meaning and the lack of purpose and being... There's an interview where someone asks him about, "What do you think about self-actualization?" Now, in today's modern world, that's a big thing, self-actualization.

55:46 Speaker 4 Right.

55:47 Speaker 1 He starts to laugh.

55:48 Speaker 4 Right.

55:48 Speaker 1 He said, "What's self-actualization?"

55:50 Speaker 4 Waste of time.

55:51 Speaker 1 Waste of time. He says, "Live a life of meaning, and you'll find yourself." Start with meaning.

55:56 Speaker 4 Right.

55:57 Speaker 1 So we've gone back to that world. So the problem is when you start mixing psychology and Tanya, what's... Besides that there is inner ache and there's a nefesh chaya, there's a nefesh hakdesh, and so on, there's a sekhel hakil and a sekhel, uh, not a hakil It, it's also we become so „fachap" sometimes with some of the stuff that's going on, that actually we put it into Chassidus, and not only it's diluting Chassidus, it's actually destroying Chassidus 'cause there's no way Chassidus is talking about that. It's a very yeshstike approach.

56:23 Speaker 4 Yeah.

56:24 Speaker 1 And it's very dangerous. I think it's a very dangerous path. So I'm not against therapy when it's needed. I'm not against using the "yesh chochma bagoyim taiman," but it's, it's a separate sugya. Now, that doesn't mean that some concepts are not, you can't find in Torah. It doesn't mean that simultaneously when a person's going through healing, when they're dysfunctional or they're not health- they're not healthy, it doesn't mean that they also at, at the same time cannot be learning Chassidus as a support, 'cause we know that the more meaning you get in your life, the heal- the faster the healing is and the stronger the need. All that is true, but don't mix them because they're two different things. They're completely different things.

56:58 Speaker 4 Oh, you were talking earlier about your father coming to South Africa and, and on one hand being, you know, living in South Africa, married to South- a South African girl, being a businessman there, and then not being a South African. It's a tough life to live, to, to, you know, ha- uh, be both in the world and not in the, not in the, or not of the world, right? To, to, to be in America or to be wherever you live in the quote-unquote "modern world" and the world of authenticity and meaning, and then to have Chassidus, and then Chassidus basically is this language or this, this, this, this theology, for lack of a better word, this way of life, this way of experience that completely doesn't fit into, into how we, how we understand-

57:43 Speaker 1 The, the environment that you're in.

57:44 Speaker 4 Yes. It doesn't, doesn't fit. That cannot be described. I mean, so much, you know, that I'm not taking the side of the, of the people who translate Chassidus into, 'cause I also have a instinctive rejection of that, of that point. Um, probably with a less educated background in, in the psychologies that you mentioned. I've read a little bit of it, but, you know, instinctively I'm like, "There's no way that Tanya is, is a book of psychology," mainly for the reason you said, 'cause it starts from a different foundation altogether, that these people don't even claim to talk about the psychology, and even if they, if they claimed, I certainly wouldn't believe them. You have to be a rabbi to talk about these things. But it is hard to, to live with this, with this thing, with this, with this worldview that completely... That has no, has no anchor, has no frame, has no f- has no context, has no context in, in, in, in the world, in the world around us. I mean, I think so many of us are basically living in a w-weird way the life that your father was living. The pe- like if you wanna learn Chassidus today, you might not live in South Africa, you know, being the only Chassid-

58:51 Speaker 1 Not in the same

58:51 Speaker 4 ... but you're, you're in that situation where, like, you have your Sefer Chassidus, right? You probably have a wife who, you know, most people who have, have a wife who, it probably didn't learn Chassidus the way that they learned in yeshiva, right?

59:05 Speaker 1 Right.

59:06 Speaker 4 And you're by yourself. You're by yourself. What are you, what are you supposed to do?

59:08 Speaker 1 I mean, I think it's, yeah, I think it's broader than that. I mean, I think it's the, it's the challenge or let's say the opportunity of Derech Shvi, really. That's what it is. It's, it's, uh, because that's what, that's what the Rebbe said about Yishvat.

59:20 Speaker 4 Right.

59:20 Speaker 1 "Haridul hash'kana lama'ata," right? You gotta bring it down.

59:23 Speaker 4 Right.

59:23 Speaker 1 Which means, and that's why the Rebbe's analogy often was about Yosef HaTzadik as opposed to the Shvatim. So the Shvatim, it was easier for them because they just lived outside of the hustle and bustle of Olam HaZeh.

59:35 Speaker 4 Right.

59:36 Speaker 1 Um, we are Yosef. That's what the Rebbe tells us. We are the Yosef. We have to live, uh, uh, in the midst of Mitzrayim, Erev Asaras.

59:45 Speaker 4 Right.

59:45 Speaker 1 Which is the antithet- the culture which is the antithesis of, in, in terms of everything, in terms of its values, in terms of its approaches, in terms of its perspectives, the antithesis to everything we know of Chassidus. And it is challenging, but I think that's what the Rebbe's charge was, that you gotta, that now we have to actually bring the perspective of Chassidus into that environment.

1:00:11 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:00:12 Speaker 1 And that's, it's, it's hard, but we believe there's Koach HaZman, and we have to stay true to it. And I think the first step is l-live it ourselves. In other words, develop the perspective, like, the connect and develop and learn Chassidus in its purity, and then figure out, "Okay, now how do I package this and bring it to the, to the environment, or to the person on the street, or to the person I'm being, trying to bring closer to Yiddishkeit?" Right? So you could, you know.

1:00:39 Speaker 4 But pure, pure, p-pure is a hard place, pure is a hard place to be, right? It's a lonely place to be. You know, uh, you know, uh, pe-people that listen to this podcast are probably expecting by now a reference to, uh, the Ha'ktama, the Kuntres HaMa'ayan, which is my, which is my thing, at least for the past couple of years. But, um, the, uh, it, it, the Ha'ktama Kuntres HaMa'ayan. Kuntres HaMa'ayan itself was written, uh, to a, uh, as a response to Chassidim who had asked for something to learn as part of an initiative of the Rebbe Rashab called Machzikie HaDath, which was an effort to strengthen Baal Batim throughout Russia and I think also past, past the borders. Uh, not just Lubavitchers, by the way, but also, also Kehillat Sevenach. And the Rebbe Rashab's point at the time, and you could think he was talking to us today, um, especially in that Ha'ktama and the K-Kuntres HaMa'ayan itself, he's, he says, he, he says that m- uh, men basically, the Chassidish men, they're, they, they've basically become isolated, and they've become, uh, like scared or weakened to, to, to create the, the world around them that matches their, what they believe. And so even the ones who believe something or think something, they basically do it in private. They're s- They're, they're ashamed of their own family to, to kind of push a certain standard. And so everybody kind of retreats to, like, their private nook and cranny. In other words- The context is

1:02:12 Speaker 4 so foreign to you, the context of even your own home is so foreign to what you believe that you just, you, you, you hide in, in your privacy. Um, and, and Konsh Zomayin and Somach Zikiadas effort was a way to, to, to galvanize people, to bring them together and tell me, "Not on your own." And, uh, at the same time, you are on your own. You have to be a man. You have to be... You, you have to find the starkit within you. That's what Konsh Zomayin's all about.

1:02:39 Speaker 1 Correct. But I think-

1:02:39 Speaker 4 You have to fight, you have to fight the shtus of Elamaza.

1:02:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:42 Speaker 4 And, like, to me, that is, he's talking to us, it's, it's, it's talking to us today.

1:02:48 Speaker 1 Although could be-

1:02:48 Speaker 4 Like, there is no other way.

1:02:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. But it could be the outcome is a bit different today only because I think the Rebbe's view is that we're now at the point where we actually can bring it, can bring the environment along with us if we try hard enough.

1:03:02 Speaker 4 Yeah, but you have to start with yourself.

1:03:03 Speaker 1 Correct. 100%.

1:03:04 Speaker 4 There's that, that doesn't go away, right?

1:03:06 Speaker 1 No, correct. Yeah.

1:03:06 Speaker 4 You have to start, you have to start with yourself and, and it is gonna be hard. It is gonna be hard. I, I don't know that there's a way around, I don't know that there's a way around the, the ha-hardship of I, for whatever reason, went to Yeshiva in Techetim. I learned these ideas. I have these ideas, you know, that, that, that do imp- if, if I care about them at all, that means that they've impressed me on some level, and I have no idea how to fit them into this world that I live in. Like, they-- I have no language, I have no... It, it just feels completely at odds with, with, with, with e- with everything else. With, with the whole zeitgeist, with the whole, with, with my whole conceptualization of the world, it just doesn't... It just, it starts from a completely different starting. It, it starts from a completely different point, right? And the answer is exactly. You have to start from there. You're not gonna-

1:04:02 Speaker 1 You have to start from there, but you also have to develop an identity where actually you're not bespoke from that world. In fact, the world-

1:04:09 Speaker 4 Right

1:04:09 Speaker 1 ... in your eyes becomes what your world is. That's the real world. I once heard a good word. Um, you know, people in Gemara, there's one of the mefarshim, one of the commentaries of the Gemara is the Meiram.

1:04:19 Speaker 4 Yes.

1:04:19 Speaker 1 And whenever he asked a question, he says, "Makshin haOlam." The world asks the question. So the question is, which world exactly was he talking about? The few bochurim who were sitting there in Frankfurt and learning with him? I mean, like, what does that mean?

1:04:30 Speaker 4 Right. Right.

1:04:31 Speaker 1 And third says, "That's exactly right." Those few people learning the Gemara and asking the question, they, that's the world.

1:04:36 Speaker 4 That's the world.

1:04:36 Speaker 1 That's the world.

1:04:38 Speaker 4 Right.

1:04:39 Speaker 1 The, the rest is Havdalah. I'm saying it's like... So I think that's a similar idea, like we have to understand, no, the world is... You know, there's a fascinating sikkah. Um, I think they were talked about in a few places, but there's a fascinating sikkah. Um, uh, uh, I mean, it, it was very ingrained in me because I'll just tell you a, a cute little anecdote that, um, I was a bochur, as a shliach, I was in Melbourne-

1:05:02 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

1:05:02 Speaker 1 ... in Yeshivat Gedolah. And we're very far from Granites-

1:05:05 Speaker 4 You're one of the fir- you are one of the first.

1:05:06 Speaker 1 No, I'm not. I was the ninth I always tell people, I always tell shluchim and regular some, but I always say you have to have a kif to learn things that you're not gonna use for your next year.

1:08:29 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:08:30 Speaker 1 See? Right? Have a shiur on Samech Vav, a tifa Mayim of the Rebbe, whatever the case is.

1:08:35 Speaker 4 You can't give a shiur on Samech Vav?

1:08:36 Speaker 1 You could. What I mean to say, eventually you'll find concepts you... But right, right now I'm not holding by Monday morning my shiur to this, to the-

1:08:42 Speaker 4 Right

1:08:42 Speaker 1 ... but I'm not giving a shiur on Samech Vav, right?

1:08:43 Speaker 4 Right.

1:08:44 Speaker 1 But derech klal. But that's what you have to learn 'cause you have to go back into that world completely and remem- and never forget that world, right? And understand that's who you really are, and understand that everything else is a lavush, it's a garment. And the Rebbe says, "Yes, you have to get into the lavush hamitzvah," and you have to get into that world, and you have to put, put on those garments, but only as a garment.

1:09:06 Speaker 4 Right.

1:09:06 Speaker 1 Right? As soon as you start to give it chashivus, you've undermined your own shlichus.

1:09:13 Speaker 4 All right.

1:09:14 Speaker 1 And to farbrengen about it, always remind yourself who you really are. You're a bachur in 720, you're a young man that came from 720. You're, you're Yosef. Yosef, learn that sefer. That, the world is, is nothing. All the fancy stuff that we have to give chashivus to because that's the only way we can be successful and get the message across, that's all lavushim. That's not, that's not true. It's not, it's not a real... It's a package. It's the package on a product. The product cannot, can never change.

1:09:39 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:09:40 Speaker 1 I think that's, that's the... You know, we talked a little before about, about the Friediker Rebbe said America is nisht anders. That's exactly the point. Of course, the application is different in terms of how you deliver it and the language you use. The Friediker Rebbe himself said, "You say if I'm wearing a yiddish in, in, in, in America," right? Um, which wasn't exactly the same as the, the mamarim of the tzaddiks, right? So, so, okay. So whatever the case is, but the kernel, the, the, the truth, the authenticity, the what it is and who you really are, we need to work on that Yosef idea of it always being the same. And it's hard. It is hard, 'cause sometimes you get more nispel, less nispel. You, you're affected more, affected less, but that has to be the, the, the, the cook.

1:10:25 Speaker 4 As we approach the two-year mark of this podcast, Homsik for Lubavitch has become a household name in the Lubavitch community, with thousands of views each week on YouTube alone, as well as thousands more on the various podcast platforms. We have a devoted audience that listens regularly to the conversations and shares their thoughts with their families and communities. If you would like to sponsor an episode or advertise on one of our episodes, please reach out to bentzi@yuvlamedia.com. That's bentzi@yuvlamedia, Y-U-V-L-A media.com. When you say to learn Chassidus and to retreat into that world of yeshiva, basically, of, uh, you know, to bend down, okay, so yeshiva, isolated from the world or innocent of the world, are you... Is, is, isn't that a kind of escapism from, from, from reality? Meaning i-i-is, is, is, is that even me at this point? Like if, if I... And let, let me, let me add a little bit to the question. Don't we end up having this kind of schizophrenic identity where there's me in life, and that's not just on shlichus, it's me vis-à-vis my wife, vis-à-vis my kids, vis-à-vis myself most of the day, and then I retreat to this kind of, uh, old version of me that gets excited about a pilpul in Chassidus about, you know, da'as elyon, da'as tachaton. Like there's a massive split there that has to be negotiated.

1:11:55 Speaker 1 So it's an interesting language you're using, right? The old you and the new you. That's the point, I think. It's not the old you and the new you. It should never be. First of all, I think the way Chassidus teaches about avodas Hashem is it's, it's always schizophrenic. It's ratzo v'shuv, right? Ratzo v'shuv is back and forth. It's never... That's the point. Ratzo v'shuv is you're never comfortable anyway. Why? Because really, you know, the kavana lyone is ultimately you, you, you're doing what the Hashem wants when you should, when you're in the world. But, but, but we know, but if you're in the world and that becomes you and you're comfortable there, then you're not really doing the kavana lyone. You always have to wanna go back to exactly where ratzo v'shuv is, right? Because it's not-

1:12:33 Speaker 4 It's, it's certainly an interesting take on ratzo v'shuv. I, I've never thought of it that way. Uh-

1:12:37 Speaker 1 I guess, I think it's, I think it's-

1:12:38 Speaker 4 You're saying there is a, there is a schizophrenia that's actually a healthy kind of thing.

1:12:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's... And I, that's why I don't think it's, so I don't think it's escapism. I think it's a re, it's a re... It's visiting who you really are, reminding yourself who you really are. I think-

1:12:52 Speaker 4 But why am I so, why am I s- why is that language so... If, if it's who I really am, why is that language so disconnected from the rest of my day?

1:12:59 Speaker 1 Because... No, because... Well, it shouldn't be. That's the word. It shouldn't be disconnected. In other words, the language will be very different, but at the essence, at, at its heart, you're communicating who you really are.

1:13:09 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:13:09 Speaker 1 So I think the, a simple mashal for that is like Shabbos and the weekdays, right?

1:13:13 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:13:13 Speaker 1 So we know, I mean, you know, there's the Sicha in Korach,

1:13:52 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

1:14:22 Speaker 1 ... Were you, were you here that year?

1:14:34 Speaker 4 No, I was in Sydney already.

1:14:35 Speaker 1 You, you didn't come back for the Kinus?

1:14:37 Speaker 4 No, in those days. I came... When I used to, from Sydney, I used to come to Israel. I didn't come.

1:14:41 Speaker 1 Right.

1:14:41 Speaker 4 So I don't know, more than once a year, it was like

1:14:43 Speaker 1 If you're gonna come, you're gonna come.

1:14:44 Speaker 4 Only later I started going back and forth a little bit, but-

1:14:47 Speaker 1 Right

1:14:47 Speaker 4 ... depending on the year. But, um, no. So yeah, I didn't come. And also it was, it was Kinus Hashluchim in London, but it wasn't so like-

1:14:54 Speaker 1 No, it wasn't like today.

1:14:55 Speaker 4 Yeah, it wasn't like today. Yeah. So, and the Rebbe spoke this whole thing, it was all based on the shlichus, this Kabbalistic name of Shiur. And then towards the end, he just gives like a really interesting hör på, that shluchim should finish the Kodatei Torah and Torah.

1:15:06 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:07 Speaker 4 Like it's fascinating. These are busy guys. I mean, like, you know, everyone knows the shluchim are really busy. They're running around, they're fundraising, they're doing pulas, and they should be busy. If they're not busy, it's a problem. They should be busier, and the whole thing, right?

1:15:18 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:18 Speaker 4 But don't forget, you need to learn Torah and like the whole thing, you should finish. I don't know, I looked at it again now. I'm not sure if it meant mamash every year, but, but anyway, at least we should try, right?

1:15:27 Speaker 1 You should learn a lot.

1:15:28 Speaker 4 You should learn a lot of Torah . Right.

1:15:30 Speaker 1 If, if you get through half of it a week, you're learning a lot.

1:15:32 Speaker 4 Yeah. Like, like how does that fit into it? Like, you know?

1:15:34 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:35 Speaker 4 I-I-I'm giving talks on, on, on, on mindfulness and, and Torah, how it fits into Judaism and-

1:15:39 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:41 Speaker 4 yeah, 'cause Torah declares who I am.

1:15:43 Speaker 1 It's who I am.

1:15:44 Speaker 4 And, and, and when I, when I give a, a lecture on, on, on, on self-esteem or mindfulness or, or, or relationships or whatever, trauma, whatever, whatever the series is.

1:15:54 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, it's what you... Yeah, it's what you were, you were... You said you wanted to get back to it. I don't know if we-- if you feel like we covered it already, but there was that, that you, you brought up the idea of how Chassidus insists on including, from Tanya, it's very explicit, the idea of tzadik, tzadik , tzadik . The... Talking about madrigas that are clearly out of our reach and fundamentally out of our reach. What's the point of it, right? And, and, and fundamentally, or at least the obv-- the obvious point, and there's many points to it, but the obvious point is that our, our starting point, our, our, our center should not be the weekday, it should be Shabbos. Our center should not be who we are right now, but who we really are supposed to be.

1:16:36 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:36 Speaker 1 Right? And, and not even supposed to be. You might not ever be that, but, but who you are in be'etzem, who... Like, who you're, who you are on a level that might even be out of your reach, but it's still you somehow.

1:16:48 Speaker 4 Right. Right.

1:16:48 Speaker 1 Right?

1:16:49 Speaker 4 Or it's your mokar at least, you know, like in Tanya, right? Just 'cause I guess recently gave a shiur on it again. And, um, you know how the Rebbe's those three madrigas that and also

1:17:02 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:02 Speaker 4 In other words, we talk about the etzem ha neshamah, the etzem ha neshamah, right?

1:17:05 Speaker 1 Crazy levels.

1:17:05 Speaker 4 Yeah, crazy levels where we... And one, and that's what gives us . Now, do we feel it consciously? No, probably not. We all have a ni- very nice nefesh habhamis. We have plenty of ego.

1:17:14 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:14 Speaker 4 We, we find it very hard to tolerate the next person.

1:17:16 Speaker 1 No, later on in Tanya, the Alter Rebbe says even when you're doing a mitzvah, you think it's your nefesh elokis, it's really your nefesh habhamis.

1:17:21 Speaker 4 Yeah, and all, all those kind of things, right?

1:17:23 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:24 Speaker 4 But, but if you wanna have more , go back to who you really are. Do you feel who you really are all day? No. But know the truth. Know that your neshamah in its core is, is this crazy madrega, right?

1:17:34 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:35 Speaker 4 So exactly. So I mean, that's one thing, and the second thing is just generally to like go back to, yeah, to the emes, go back to what the, what the, what the goal is, like where, where you're headed, where you-

1:17:45 Speaker 1 So there is a duality there. There's gonna be a duality. I mean, maybe schizophrenia is, is a wrong word because for some people it's a devastating, uh, condition. But the, the... You know, when it's used as more of not a clinical description, but as a, a, a kind of split in one's life, it seems like, like, like there is, there is something there where, you know, there's, there's this part of us that's completely, completely beyond... That for some reason the imagery that's coming to my mind is so many times when we use the word anchor, you know, we use it the way the, the way it is in reality usually, which is an anchor is you have a ship, you have a ship at sea, and you try with this heavy thing to kind of find solid plot at the bottom of the ocean to, to, to have a firm-

1:18:32 Speaker 4 To hold it down. Yeah

1:18:32 Speaker 1 ... to hold it down. And Chassidus says, "No, I'm gonna take the anchor, and I'm gonna throw it up to the sun, and you're gonna be anchored up... You're gonna be anchored to the sun. Good luck with that." But that's gonna be your anchor. Like that's where, that's, that's where your source is. Your source isn't the mud. Your source is the sun. Not try to, you know, try to... And in a way, it's a... It... That's not a more comfortable way of life. That's not even a more stable way of life, right? 'Cause good luck being anchored to the sun. But that's kind of what's going on, right? That your, your, your, your etzem, your s- your, your essence, who you are, stripped of everything else. You know, I was today... You, you, you said you were into chinuch, so you, you, you might appreciate this vort. I don't know how you'll take it. But, um, I was today working in a, in a not Lubavitch yeshiva, filming in a not Lubavitch yeshiva. Uh, a very respected yeshiva here in New York, a very successful yeshiva, and a yeshiva that has a lot of hanakos that, you know, a Lubavitcher could relate to. Um, a lot of, a lot of and, um, and, uh, so there are a lot of things there that, that aspirationally are, are things that you hear growing up in Lubavitch as well, but not a Lubavitch yeshiva. Anyhow, um, so I was talking to one of the menahelim there, and

1:19:52 Speaker 1 he was telling me a st- he used to... He had a... He's already... He's in chinuch for, for 40, 50 years. But he started off before he was a menahel, he taught first grade. So, um, so I, I was... We were talking about the ma'ale of, of teaching first grade. So he said that, uh, he said that, um, one of the ma'ales that he had, uh, one of the ma'ales he feels in first grade is that in fir- when you teach a kid in eighth grade, it's really the same kid as first grade, just with a whole bunch of layers that have been put on top to, put on top of it, and now you have to deal with all the extra layers. Whereas in first grade, you're dealing with the same child, but now the child is still pure. And in many ways, that's like the, that's the idea of the etzem ha neshamah, right? There's, there's you before we put... Naked of all the, all the other things that we've layered on top of you, and at this, at some point, you have no access to that part anymore, but it's still, it's still true. But it's, it's not you. It's, it's, it, it's you, but it's not you.

1:20:54 Speaker 4 Well, it's the real you. I mean, it's a little bit like it says in Tanya later on about nefesh habah is nefesh elokis, right? That it depends what you mean by, by you. Like the conscious you is nefesh habammis. The Alter Rebbe says that hiya od matzvoi, except for Hillel who went to do kindness with his goof, right?

1:21:11 Speaker 1 Right.

1:21:12 Speaker 4 Um, and that's what Alter Rebbe says sometimes you have to be, you know, you have to mevatish, nefesh habammis, et cetera. But, but it is for most people, that's, that's on a day-to-day, that's who they are. But they then realize that the pnimiyus really it's not their you. It's their conscious you, but it's not really their you. Their you is the neshamah. So I think same thing. Like of course, I mean, we're not, we learn all these big madrigas and things like that, and we, and we, and we delve into, we retreat into the purity of chasidus, right? That's, that's who we really are. We might not feel that day-to-day. It's like, again, the Shabbos and weekday. You maybe don't feel the Shabbos so much during the week, but that's who we really are. That's who we, that's when we, we at home.

1:21:54 Speaker 1 You know, uh, I'm not doing this just to, just to, just to, um, be conciliatory. That's, that, that's not a bad thing to be, but I'm coming, thinking back to the, the discussion we had earlier about trying to identify or even describe the Rebbe's struggle with, with feelings or whatever. You know, in a way, I think that kind of is, uh, to steel man your ar- your side of the argument, there's like, there's, there's a certain, there's a certain consistency here. It kind of, it kind of, uh, makes sense based on what we're talking about right now, which is that the, the, we have, we, we want to feel that things are not just in a selfish way centered around us, but we wanna make sense of the world with our stor- starting point being how we understand the world and how we understand ourselves. And then we say, "You know what? Okay, so there's a higher level, but it's a higher level of me," right? A higher... Because I, I want, I don't wanna lose, I don't wanna lose grasp on what I'm talking about, right? I don't, I wanna talk about, "Oh, this is my Rebbe. This is someone I look up to. I wanna learn from him. I want..." But it needs to be in my grasp, right? I don't wanna lose, I don't wanna... If, if he's my Rebbe and he's out of my grasp, then part of me is now out of my grasp, and that's a very scary thing

1:23:21 Speaker 1 to do, right? So there is a desire to make it something more relevant. And what you're saying is, in a way, it's, it's, it's the opposite. If you make it, if you, if you try to make it more relevant to you, you're shrinking the entire thing into, into a reality of you that's not really a reality of you.

1:23:39 Speaker 4 Maybe it's just a better form of you, but it's, but it's you still at the end of the day.

1:23:42 Speaker 1 Uh, but it's not, it's not the real you.

1:23:44 Speaker 4 I'm saying, but I'm saying the you, the, the, the esher stiker you, right?

1:23:46 Speaker 1 But it's, it's, I mean, that, that's a problem that we have when we use these words.

1:23:49 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:23:50 Speaker 1 Who is a you? But the, the, the point is, the starting point, the starting point sh- is, like in a way, you could almost say that the Rebbe's here, like they say the, the line that the, the, the King of England serves a very good purpose to remind you that you're not the king.

1:24:07 Speaker 4 Right.

1:24:07 Speaker 1 At the very least, you're, you should know that you're not the king, right? He's a shmendrik, but but he reminds you... I'm sorry, you know, for, for South Africa.

1:24:14 Speaker 4 South Africa.

1:24:15 Speaker 1 I don't wanna offend your sensibilities, but the king might be a-- They, they all think he's a shmendrik. The, the, the, you know, the king might be a shmendrik, and I'm a, and I'm a proud American. The king should be a shmendrik, might be a shmendrik, but you're, at least he's tells you that you're not the king. Like, there is something about the, the Rebbe, the Rebbe. One of the things the Rebbe does is reminds you that there's, the starting point is not, is not what you think the starting point is of you.

1:24:43 Speaker 4 You know, uh, it's an interesting thing. I've, I've been asked a number of times in, in the mishum that I give, you know, from sometimes I give the, the young adults, particularly something more of sort of the Kabbalah, what they call a Kabbalistic she'ar and all that, and they're like, they like the Kabbalah and start. So I've been asked a few times, "Can you be spiritual without believing in God?" And they're expecting me obviously to say, "Absolutely not. You have to have God and all of that stuff." And I say, "Yeah, no, you could." So they look at me like, "What do you mean?" I said, "You could be spiritual, just c- just can't be godly."

1:25:12 Speaker 1 Right.

1:25:13 Speaker 4 Right? I said, "Because spirituality at the end of the day is just a f- a, a deeper form of yourself. What you're describing or you, the way you're describing spirituality-

1:25:21 Speaker 1 Right

1:25:21 Speaker 4 ... is really just another expression of yourself. A deeper expression, a more refined expression."

1:25:25 Speaker 1 Ruchnius is not the same thing as gashmius, right?

1:25:27 Speaker 4 Exactly. Exactly. So I think this is the word, right? Sometimes even when you look at something and you're becoming a better person, but it's still you. The Rebbe's, you know, the... And I think this is like part of what people struggle with in terms of making chasidus relatable or relevant, right? You know, when you tell, sometimes people get nervous, you talk chasidim, stories of chasidim, the Mesiras Nefesh and the Skafia and then all of that. So yeah, every generation, Skafia looks differently, but it doesn't mean... At, at the core, it's the same thing always. So like if you learn about someone, I mean, the Rebbe even said this, right? The Rebbe said, um, 'cause the Rebbe had this view that any story that's told that we know about, even if it's about tzadikim and even if it's very high levels, it's got something to do with us. The Rebbe's lashon was, "Efes minehu Hashem mezakeh otzehu," or something, right? So the Rebbe told that story about the Alter Rebbe that he didn't, he kept eating the food even though it was salty because he said that from the time he came back from the Maggid, he lost the, the ta- the sense of taste, right? So obviously, that's not shayach to any of us, right? The Rebbe said, "Yeah, no, it is because," Rebbe said, "Of course, it's not shayach in its, in its application, but the idea that maybe once in a while, you know, that we, we could sit, that we can get

1:26:35 Speaker 4 to the madriga, that once in a while or if it's in a blue moon, we can put ourselves a little bit higher where, you know, the, what the food tastes like doesn't matter so much and so on," right? And it's the same thing, like what chasidus at its core is, is bittul. It's about connecting with a completely different world, which is the world of the neshamah really. In other words, going out of your conscious you. And, and I think it's with the Rebbe the same thing. The Rebbe allows us to go into his world. It's a different world, right? Um- And, and then learn that in its purity, in its absoluteness, and then find a way how do you apply, how do you apply it? And that's the Ɣaχol ve-yedaχa. And for one person, it might be just to take another step, but guide yourself. It's the same word. In other words, no matter where you are, learning that idea of bitul, learning of connecting to the Aibishter's world and, and a higher world, and you do something about it, and you do your yesh kaf yeah, which might mean, for one person might mean, I don't know, starting to negel vasser each night. Or for another person, just doing something that's uncomfortable, which is not the popular way of doing things today.

1:27:41 Speaker 1 Uncomfortable.

1:27:43 Speaker 4 Huh?

1:27:43 Speaker 1 Uncomfortable.

1:27:44 Speaker 4 Be uncomfortable. Do something that's uncomfortable.

1:27:46 Speaker 1 Right.

1:27:46 Speaker 4 It's not gonna be Rabbeinu Yonah, it's not gonna be Rabbeinu Yonah's level, not gonna be Rabbeinu Yonah's level, certainly not gonna be in Rabbeinu Yonah's level. But, but, but apply it to your context. Like the Rebbe once told someone, I think it was a bit secular, he was the head of the federation or something. So the story goes, and he came to Yechidas, was very impressed with the Rebbe, and he said to the Rebbe, um, "Is it disrespectful if I tell you that I wanna be your Ɣasid?" And he didn't look like a Ɣasid, didn't act like a Ɣasid, obviously. So the Rebbe said that every year that goes to sleep at night and he makes res- his resolves that will be d- tomorrow will be better than today, I'm proud to call him my Ɣasid. But in other words, it's the, it's the... And that's why telling stories of Mesirut Nefesh is so important, telling stories of ultra-Ɣasidim is so important. Not because we can, we can mamash reach, do the things that they did, and we're not responsible for the things they did necessarily, but we can put ourselves in that framework, in that, in the way of thinking. Like the Rebbe said in the last ma'amar of Ateret Zevach that there's two Mesirut Nefesh, and he doesn't say these words, but essentially it's the Mesirut Nefesh of Russia and the Mesirut Nefesh of America, right? That's-

1:28:51 Speaker 1 Yeah, everybody understands it.

1:28:52 Speaker 4 Yeah, everyone understands that way, right? But really what the Rebbe's saying is, it's the same thing. In other words, that was Mesirut Nefesh, which meant you actually had to give up your life or risk your life at least, right?

1:29:01 Speaker 1 Right.

1:29:02 Speaker 4 Now it's just about, in a way, it's harder 'cause things are more comfortable, and you don't have the adrenaline of being threatened. But it's the same thing. Do something that-

1:29:10 Speaker 1 We're in New York now. People feel that-

1:29:12 Speaker 4 Yeah, okay. That's-

1:29:13 Speaker 1 Some, some people feel that.

1:29:14 Speaker 4 Yeah. Fair enough. But, but-

1:29:15 Speaker 1 If you're on, if you're on the internet a lot

1:29:16 Speaker 4 ... but the point is Mesirut Zevach is be a Ɣasid, but where you are, but just grow, become better. Like, do something difficult.

1:29:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:29:24 Speaker 4 Don't be afraid, don't be afraid to be uncomfortable. Don't be afraid to, to push yourself a little bit.

1:29:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I think, I think in some ways you could even explain that, that the, the whole thing about Mashiach, and maybe, maybe I'm psychologizing it now, you'll push back if I'm wrong. But the whole thing of Mashiach in many ways, the focus on Mashiach in many ways is t- is in some ways the same exact point. You're gonna anchor yourself to something. Ev- everybody has an anchor. Everybody has something that the, that serves as their starting point, right? Is your starting point gonna be yourself? Is it gonna be your, your, your current matzav, right? Or is your, your, is your anchor gonna be who you were yesterday and you're comparing yourself to yesterday, which is still yourself? Or is your anchor gonna be something completely outside of you? I mean, the ultimate.

1:30:15 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:30:15 Speaker 1 Like, when the, the Rebbe spoke so many times about... Look, I'm not an expert on this, and I haven't gone through the suggias the way I should, but in, there's a famous sicha that the Rebbe talked about Mashiach and the, the, and the way the Rambam sees it as part of being the shleimus of Torah. Mashiach is perfection. That's in many ways what Mashiach is just everything at its, at, at its perfect state. And b- by the Rebbe saying, like, this is a unequivocal, this is, this is, this is the only sta- this is really the only starting point. There's no negotiating where, where things must end up and where things should be. And so you, you, you're never comf-- You're anchored to the sun, essentially. You're anchored to the sun. Look, I, I'm not trying to, to water down all the other things that come with that kind of focus on Mashiach.

1:31:00 Speaker 4 No, sure.

1:31:00 Speaker 1 But I think at its core-

1:31:01 Speaker 4 No, I think that's correct. I think, you know, when the Rebbe says we should live with Mashiach, right? I think part of what it means is, like, are you, are you being you and remaining in you, but just doing some good things and Torah and mitzvahs, and maybe even growing in Torah and mitzvahs, but essentially you're still you? That's kolos, right? Mashiach is gila elokos, where the truth comes out, right? So in other words, it's the Yiddishkeit that you're growing to, but you make your center elokos. In other words, it's com- like, and becomes who you are. More and more becomes who you are. I, I, I'm not, I'm not... You know, like the Rebbe always used to talk about the two versions of Ani nivrei shelisham shel kreini, right? So ani nivrei shelisham shel kreini means I'm created, but I'm created to serve a higher purpose, but it's I'm created.

1:31:44 Speaker 1 I'm here.

1:31:44 Speaker 4 I'm here. Where the second girsa, which the Rebbe would emphasize quite a lot, and I think that's a similar idea. Ani lo nivrei. I, I'm not here. Elo, my entire being only is my identity, my definition, lisham shel kreini. It's very different.

1:31:59 Speaker 1 But darf nisht vel vershteyn.

1:32:01 Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. So, and, and what difference is that gonna make? So, you know, there's a, a beautiful word, um, that I heard, you know, by Farbrengen, and I think Siddy used to say it over, about the cheshbon hanefesh of Elo when you, when you reflect on your year gone by, right? This, you say like this, he used to say that there's three parts of cheshbon hanefesh. One is you have to make a real reckoning of who you are, where you should be, and where you can be, right? So where you should be, we know. We have to learn Tanya, we have to, we should be a Ben Ali. I mean, like, that's what we should be, right?

1:32:37 Speaker 1 Really a tali- a talmid chacham.

1:32:39 Speaker 4 A talmid chacham. Yeah, yeah.

1:32:40 Speaker 1 Ya'arah ruach u'memara.

1:32:41 Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's what we should be. We should be giya. Machshava d'var ma'ase at least completely 100%, right? Where I am? Okay. Yad dehesh benafshe, possessed through a cheshbon. He's where he is. Where can I be? I can't be. Realistically, I can't be who... What's in that. But I can... Tanya is 100, I'm a, I'm a two. I, I can be a three.

1:33:00 Speaker 1 All right. So, so say that again. So this is an old Chabad shavar?

1:33:02 Speaker 4 Yeah. That's all.

1:33:03 Speaker 1 This, this is an old Chabad shavar?

1:33:04 Speaker 4 Yeah, apparently. It's the... I think Shlomo Chaim used to say it all the... So they asked the question What's the point of that? Other words, what's the point of making a chizzun the way I should be? If, if that doesn't match where I can be, so just make a chizzun the way you are and where you can be. Finished.

1:33:19 Speaker 1 See.

1:33:19 Speaker 4 Sometimes where it's a poshet. Because if you make a real chizzun the way you should be, then the way you can be will become different.

1:33:25 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:33:27 Speaker 4 And I think the same thing over here. If you-- ani nivrei shel shama v'sh'chone. If you, if you exist, and I am I, and I remain I, but I'm growing. I wanna grow in Yiddishkeit. I'll do another mitzvah next week. I wanna... But I'm still I, then it's a limited growth.

1:33:40 Speaker 1 Right.

1:33:41 Speaker 4 'Cause I never really leave myself. Chizzun this and perhaps ultimately Mashiach is about nar, ani nivrei. It's all of a kus. Um, but, I mean, Mashiach didn't come, then I'm still, I'm still living. But then my, my approach becomes different. I, I, I aim higher.

1:33:59 Speaker 1 Right.

1:33:59 Speaker 4 Instead of aiming to three, I aim to ten because I'm really striving for that, the truth.

1:34:05 Speaker 1 Beautiful.

1:34:06 Speaker 4 So it makes a big dent, and I think that's, that's part of the answer about, you know, the relevance of chizzun this year. Learn it, learn... Delve this. Spend a lot of time about where, where you should be because then your whole life perspective will change, and then where you can be becomes different.

1:34:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, look, I have to, I have to say, uh, it's, it's something that I have got... I've gotten back to, um, you know, uh, Baruch Hashem the past couple of years. Um, really the past year, I would say. Um, not, not, not nearly at the quantity that I would like, but, you know, learning, um, that like you said, the... I mean, I'm, I don't... I'm not the, I'm not in the position to be teaching on a regular basis anyhow. I have the opportunity from time to time. But just learning, you know, the way I used to learn in yeshiva. And yeah, there is something, there is something... S-something m-mysteriously works about it. I can't explain it exactly, and I can't... I maybe s- Uh, maybe there's a psychological language for it. I don't really care. I'm not looking for it to explain how it works. But there's something about you do, in a way, exit your world and your space for some time. You do. You, you're talking about things that are, that are... You're, you're being mafal in, in Madregas. This, you, you cannot touch these things. You, it, it, it takes you away from it. You're, you're in the, you're in the language of the Rabbeim for some time. You're departing from, from your regular-

1:35:32 Speaker 4 You're going to their world.

1:35:33 Speaker 1 You are going to their world.

1:35:33 Speaker 4 They're inviting you into their world.

1:35:35 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. I... Yes. There, there, there's, there, there, there's, uh... Maybe it's a maturity thing for me. There's more and more a feeling of, you know... You, you listen to what they say for a few minutes and just hear them out, you know. Hear them out. Um, you know, Sukkos, I, I felt that, you know. The... Maybe it's like, maybe it's just the ni-- it was the nice weather, but also the idea of those shpizin. You know, you go into the Sukkah, you take out a maimar, you open it up, and you learn it.

1:36:03 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:36:03 Speaker 1 And it's like they come into your world, and you, you... But, but they say their piece, right? It's, it's, it's they're coming into your world. Like, it's not diluted into your world. They're coming and delivering something that's a whole dif-- a whole... They're a guest. It's a whole different experience. And somehow that does translate into your life. I, I don't know how to make sense of it exactly, but it's just, it's just, it's just-

1:36:29 Speaker 4 Lifts you up and, and therefore your, your perspective becomes different, and your belief in what you can do becomes different.

1:36:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. A-anchored, anchored to the sun.

1:36:40 Speaker 4 You, yeah, you can, you can... You're not different. Yeah. You operate on a different frequency.

1:36:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. There, there's, there's something about thinking about the Rabbeim. You know, ironically, I, I think I got this formulation from, uh... Maybe it's not ironic. I got this formulation, surprisingly is the right word. Surprisingly, I got this formulation from Professor Elliot Wolfson, who from all the people on the podcast probably is at least looking like a Lubavitcher Hasid. He doesn't... He certainly doesn't... His, his, his, his outward way of life does not look like a Lubavitcher. Um, but, you know, he described the Rabbeim as a family of people, 'cause they are, they are all related to one another, who, who, who poshet had a con... A, a, a consistency of thinking that... And, and, and, and, and also, how did he phrase it? I don't remember the exact words. But a willingness to go to the absolute depths or maybe the word not depths, but the, but the furthest reaches of, of, of, of, of language and mind to c- to, to, to talk about the essence of things, the, the, the truth of things, and to take you all the way there. Not-- to not shy away at all from going all the way with you. And this group of people were, were simply generous enough to share this perspective with all of us. I mean, there... Maybe that's a very grubby way of putting it, but it's, it, it, it's-

1:38:12 Speaker 4 Well, it's one way of framing it. I mean, it's, it's an amazing... It is an amazing gift. I mean-

1:38:17 Speaker 1 It's generosity is what, is what I'm trying to say.

1:38:20 Speaker 4 I, I, I... I'll just tell you-

1:38:22 Speaker 1 It's a, it's a gift that they gave us, right?

1:38:23 Speaker 4 I'll tell you a cute little story. The first time I came back when I moved to Australia in 1988. I came back, so it was, it was Tammuz. I didn't come for that Tishrei 'cause it was just a few months after I'd arrived there. But I came for Tishrei Tosheenu, and I couldn't come for Rosh Hashanah, but I arrived 12 Tishrei. And, um, I hadn't seen the Rebbe for a while. I, I'd been away for a long time, and I heard the Rebbe said a sicha that it wasn't for bringing during the week 'cause it was after Chaf Teshvat, and he said a sicha, and he was giving out a kundrus, a maimar, a new maimar in the middle Rebbe, whatever. And, and, um, I jumped... I came from the airport. I jumped into the Mikvah Ram 770, and there was still a lot of pe-- I mean, the line was still very long. And as I was standing in line, I met an elderly Hasid, Mendel Beraza falavashol. We knew each other because he had two daughters that lived in Sydney.

1:39:15 Speaker 1 Right.

1:39:16 Speaker 4 So he had come, and he farbrengen there.

1:39:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:39:18 Speaker 4 I said, "Shalom aleichem," you know, we're on the line. And he nod... He shakes his head. He says, "Ezucht poshet arbit." Talking, talk, talking about the Rebbe. He's looking for work. The Rebbe had just given out a Tanya or something. It'll be Urim and Tanya Erev Rosh Hashanah. Just a few days later, he's giving... Standing out for hours again, giving out a maimar. He's looking for work. I'm just saying it because you said about the generosity. It is like that. The Rebbe, I mean, you know, I, I, I, I wasn't physically the Yes. Physically very, very hard, and it was clearly tired afterwards. And, and, and yeah, and we just need to accept the invitation. Right? We need to-- He says, "Come into my world. I'm giving you a world of elokus. I'm giving you a world of, of, of, of lamele menateve. I'm giving you a whole different way to operate and to think." And that's the world we have to lift up into. Uh, uh, and then ob-obviously we, we are limited people, but if we operate on a different frequency, we become this whole different thing. It's a beautiful, beautiful story to end this conversation. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Pleasure is mine. Thank you, and hatzlacha with all, all that you do. Hatzlacha to you, and I imagine you're going home in the next few days or next week or so. Yeah, Im yirtzeh Hashem, next week I'll be traveling back to Sydney. A safe, safe voyage home,

1:40:56 Speaker 4 and, uh- Thank you ... only good news Im yirtzeh Hashem. Amen, and you too. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Sor and Adav Bahar, and is used with their permission.