Ep. 80 // "The Temptation to Spiritualize" w/ Rabbi Meni Even Israel

00:00 Speaker 1 My father came out of the Yechidus, so made a decision never to ask the Rebbe anything physical. You got the Rebbe going for spirituality. You don't go for physicality. Every Yechidus they did not let him speak about spirituality. I mean, they got into this, but the opening conversation was only about, you know, "How you doing? How's your family, how's Bill," you know, and it was much more physical. And if you look at it, this is really part of the message that the Rebbe always talked about with them, is the physical world, the physical existence, the, the be connected to the world, take more projects.

00:37 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2025. My name is Bentzi Yavtzon, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here with Rabbi Menie Even Yisroel or do you go Rabbi Steinsaltz?

01:01 Speaker 1 Even Yisroel.

01:02 Speaker 2 Even Yisroel.

01:03 Speaker 1 35 years.

01:04 Speaker 2 35 years.

01:06 Speaker 1 Not the rabbi part, the Even Yisroel part.

01:08 Speaker 2 And the rabbi part?

01:10 Speaker 1 Uh, s- 30 years.

01:12 Speaker 2 30 years.

01:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:13 Speaker 2 Okay. So we are here early in the morning in Yerushalayim with Rabbi Menie Even Yisroel, um, in the Steinsaltz Center. Um, thank you very much for making the time.

01:28 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

01:29 Speaker 2 And, um, yeah, this is, uh, part of a very, very fun trip to Eretz Yisroel, and, uh, hope to make it even more fun.

01:40 Speaker 1 I will do the best I can-

01:41 Speaker 2 Yes

01:41 Speaker 1 ... to accommodate you needs.

01:42 Speaker 2 Yes. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. So, um, before we begin, all those listening who enjoy the podcast, please like and subscribe on the various platforms. And those who really like it, please support the podcast at, at, at hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyway, Rabbi Menie, um, why don't, uh, why don't we begin at the beginning? Uh, there's a lot to talk about obviously, and, uh, I don't know if you wanna talk all about your father. Uh, I don't, I don't know. We'll see. We'll-

02:17 Speaker 1 Any way you like, sir. I'll play the game.

02:19 Speaker 2 You'll play the game.

02:20 Speaker 1 I've been doing this for a while, talking about what I am, what my father, you know, the differiat- differentiation, if they exist.

02:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, yeah.

02:28 Speaker 1 Of course, not in quality, in the conduct, what we do.

02:31 Speaker 2 Well, well, clearly if you are working in the Steinsaltz Center, you are, you're not running away from it. You're not running away from it, but, uh, I'm sure you have your own story as well.

02:42 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

02:44 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, I g- I, everybody heard of your father. I grew up hearing, uh, hearing about him from someone who I think was very close to him, and they had a very interesting relationship. You probably know more about it than I do.

03:00 Speaker 1 Not a lot about the relationship itself. I know they had a relationship. They, it's not like they shared information. They, both of them were very much, uh, Polaks in the mental level of it. Like, we don't share what you don't have to know.

03:12 Speaker 2 What you're saying with, with kids? With the, with the-

03:15 Speaker 1 Many-

03:15 Speaker 2 Or with each other?

03:16 Speaker 1 Many children

03:16 Speaker 2 ... or with each other?

03:16 Speaker 1 No, no. With each other, I think that they had shared more. But, um, like with the kid, w- I don't know how much information you had. If you were not there with them, you didn't know it exists.

03:26 Speaker 2 My, my father, my godfather would tell me stories. My father told me stories.

03:30 Speaker 1 Right. No, absolutely. What I'm saying, but that was story when happened. It's not like they had a relationship like we have today. I saying, "Yeah, what's up? How you doing? How's your family?"

03:37 Speaker 2 Ah.

03:37 Speaker 1 You know, it was like when they met together, absolutely.

03:40 Speaker 2 When they met together, yeah.

03:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:42 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, um, my, my, my grandfather would speak, would speak about your father a lot. Um, so it's, uh, I think I met your father once in the, in the Taanit Chabad Shul on Shabbos morning, but, uh, it's nice to meet you as an to that. So but, uh, why don't you talk about... I mean, when it comes, when it comes to your father, at least from my, uh, from my, from how I've seen it or from what I've observed, and, you know, tell me what you think about this, um, your father to me was always the ultimate insider outsider, um, or outsider insider. Um, you know, there's always this kind of binary of people who are on the inside, and there are people on the outside.

04:29 Speaker 1 Mm.

04:29 Speaker 2 And then I think the sweet spot is actually to be on, on the inside and outside at the same time.

04:34 Speaker 1 Right.

04:35 Speaker 2 Right? And, you know, your, your father, you know, he's the, you have a big picture here. He's wearing a hat. He looks like a Hasid. He's not trying to not look like a Hasid, right? Right?

04:45 Speaker 1 Right. Absolutely not.

04:47 Speaker 2 But he also had his own mind.

04:49 Speaker 1 His own mind, his own ideas, his own thing where he, you know... I don't know how deep this, this podcast goes. Who knows? I mean, but he has-

04:58 Speaker 2 As deep as a marble

04:59 Speaker 1 ... yeah, you know, some, some things that, you know, you don't want to say disagree, but he disagreed with the Rebbe-

05:06 Speaker 2 Yeah

05:06 Speaker 1 ... on, on the ri- on topics or s- or certain concept. They are, they, my father always concede his opinion to the Rebbe's in the end.

05:15 Speaker 2 Right.

05:15 Speaker 1 But they had a conversation.

05:17 Speaker 2 Right.

05:17 Speaker 1 And more so, as far as we know, and again, we're limited of the knowledge we actually have, the Rebbe, th- this, there's a term, this in Hebrew, it's called to break the distance, that when you need to go to the Israeli army, not everyone, but it's confirmed, is that in the first, I know, in your training, you have distance. You cannot... I presume that's in every army in the world. You're not allowed to, to talk to your commander by his first name. You're not allowed to-

05:45 Speaker 2 Right

05:45 Speaker 1 ... you know, it's, "Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir." But from time to time, after you finish your first training or higher level, you, the distance is broken, so to speak.

05:54 Speaker 2 Right.

05:55 Speaker 1 And you can talk more friendly. And several times, at least that's what my father told me, but I heard from other people, the Rebbe told him, "Speak freely."

06:04 Speaker 2 Like private, when they were private-

06:06 Speaker 1 When they were private. Even one time I know in public that the, the, the conversation was, "I, I, I heard what everybody else saying. I know their opinion. I, I got it, but you tell me what... Talk to me."

06:18 Speaker 2 Right.

06:18 Speaker 1 And you can see it, you know, that the way my father had a tremendous respect of the Rebbe in every possible level. I'm talking about the old-fashioned Hasidim. They came in every perspective of what the way it's supposed to be done. You know, never s- sit with the Rebbe. You know, the least of thing that Hasidim did. But there were time when the Rebbe told him, "Talk."

06:41 Speaker 2 Right.

06:42 Speaker 1 "Don't, don't hold back. Tell me the way it is." And, and sometime they argued, and sometime they... Again, I don't put it in the same equal level. The Rebbe is the Rebbe, and my father's my father. Yeah, don't... Let's make sure that people understand this. This is-

06:57 Speaker 2 Yeah

06:57 Speaker 1 ... Rebbe was the highest you can get in at least as far as I seen in this particular world of ours. My father was good, up there.

07:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

07:06 Speaker 1 But not on the same level.

07:07 Speaker 2 Right.

07:08 Speaker 1 But the way they talked, they really had a relationship which was much more personal and private and so on and so forth, that they... I think no other person, again, as far as I know him, my knowledge is limited, had this kind of kiruvim demands. As far as I know, as far as I know, we have a unique story, unique as far as I know about changing the name. Very famous story, but my f- I don't know anybody else that Rebbe told him to change his name, his last name. First name-

07:40 Speaker 2 Right

07:40 Speaker 1 ... Brocha's changed it before I got it.

07:42 Speaker 2 Right, so it used to be Even Israel.

07:44 Speaker 1 Used to be Steinsaltz.

07:45 Speaker 2 Oh, it used to be Steinsaltz.

07:46 Speaker 1 Right, and Rebbe told us to change it, and my father ch- Rebbe and my father choose with the Rebbe Even Israel. That was a few months later.

07:52 Speaker 2 How so your father changed to Even Israel?

07:54 Speaker 1 Yes.

07:55 Speaker 2 Okay.

07:55 Speaker 1 Originally was Steinsaltz.

07:56 Speaker 2 See, we kept the Steinsaltz Center, but-

07:58 Speaker 1 Kept the Steinsaltz Center because one of my predecessor here as a CEO came to the Rebbe crying that they can't sell anything.

08:06 Speaker 2 I see.

08:08 Speaker 1 And, uh, can he keep the name at least on the professional level? And-

08:12 Speaker 2 Because that's how he's known in the world.

08:13 Speaker 1 Right, so but his personal thing, and I can show you this later, his passport, his papers, his ID, all of them had only-

08:21 Speaker 2 Ah

08:21 Speaker 1 ... Even Israel.

08:22 Speaker 2 Ah.

08:22 Speaker 1 They had nothing. They had no Steinsaltz. He changed his signature. I don't know if you ever signed, you know, today people sign everything online, but when you sign hundreds and thousand s- signature a year because on books and so on, and you change your signature, it's a big deal.

08:38 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:39 Speaker 1 And really Rebbe asked something that as far as I know he didn't ask from anybody. It's-

08:43 Speaker 2 And did he explain why?

08:45 Speaker 1 No.

08:46 Speaker 2 So-

08:46 Speaker 1 Just the Rebbe

08:47 Speaker 2 ... just one day he told him-

08:49 Speaker 1 Yeah, my father went to the Rebbe. It's, it's a very famous video. Came to Rebbe, and the Rebbe told him from Tzar Agrah, he was, did some Torah then. And, uh, when everybody went out, Rebbe called him back again. And you know, traditionally, this referring to a new audience. Referring, you know, the Rebbe, when he call you back, it's represented a new conversation. Said, "I don't like to interfere in people's life, however," and told him to change your name. Again, was very, very nice and, uh, 'cause my mother just passed away. When she moved, when, when the Rebbe after he told my father to change the name, which it was a shock by itself. Think about it. This is a guy that he's, he's a brand name.

09:27 Speaker 2 Right.

09:27 Speaker 1 He's a brand name. This is not, uh, not Mr. Cohen.

09:30 Speaker 2 Right.

09:31 Speaker 1 The guy people know him as Steinsaltz, and the Rebbe tell him, "Change your name." So the Rebbe turn around to my mother, and he says of course with the permission of the wife. Yeah, the Rebbe was very clear. Obviously, my mother come from a family that was not, you know, obviously was not a big conversation.

09:47 Speaker 2 Yeah, 'cause the girls are always listened, that's for sure.

09:49 Speaker 1 Well, yeah, sure. But let them do whatever they want. Listen, yeah, very well. But i- i- it's part of the game, right? Part of the way you look. So the Rebbe had this kind of relationship with him, with my father that it was in my, again, my view different than others. As far as we know, as far as I know, again, I'm not done my, my research on this as I only still going through my father papers and documents, and there's more to do here. Father interfered in my father, or the Rebbe interfered in my father life probably 16 or 17 times. Talking about interference, not a brocha for, you know, morning, you know, Sunday afternoon. You know, this is a, when interfere in, in, in, uh, issues that are personal, and the Rebbe interfere, and he said, "Give you this instruction, that instructions." It, again, it, I think it's unique.

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11:52 Speaker 1 No.

11:53 Speaker 2 He's not embarrassed of it. Uh, yeah, he's known for this, so I think it's, it's clearly unique. He's known for it. Why would he be known for it if it was common?

12:00 Speaker 1 Right.

12:00 Speaker 2 It's not common. It, it, but I, I think, see, the interesting thing is, is I don't think that in itself makes you an outsider ... a character makes you an insider. There, there are, you, you have a very personal relationship with Lubavitcher Rebbe, then you, you're an ins-

12:17 Speaker 1 Insider

12:17 Speaker 2 ... you're an insider.

12:18 Speaker 1 Right.

12:18 Speaker 2 The problem is when you're the only one that has that kind of relationship y- vis-a-vis the other people, the, the, the other Chassidim-

12:25 Speaker 1 Right

12:25 Speaker 2 ... you're an outsider.

12:26 Speaker 1 True.

12:27 Speaker 2 Right?

12:27 Speaker 1 True. Very true. And, and my father also didn't, didn't care.

12:32 Speaker 2 No, I, I, I understand. I, that, that was famous.

12:35 Speaker 1 Right.

12:36 Speaker 2 But, but you, you do end up in this place. The famous thing, which I don't have to tell you about-

12:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

12:43 Speaker 2 ... is the, is the, the speech that he gave, I think after Hei Teves, right? But in some time it's, it's on video.

12:49 Speaker 1 Yud Shvat.

12:50 Speaker 2 Was it Yud Shvat?

12:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:51 Speaker 2 After Hei Teves.

12:52 Speaker 1 That was the day, if y- if I remember correctly, it's the day before the Rebbe told him to change your name.

12:56 Speaker 2 A- and that was after Hei Teves, right?

12:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's much, it's Teshri Nun.

12:59 Speaker 2 Oh, Teshri Nun, okay. So I thought it was the year of Hei Teves. And he g- gives a speech in 770-

13:04 Speaker 1 Oh

13:04 Speaker 2 ... telling e- telling everybody that you guys are out of your mind, basically.

13:09 Speaker 1 You're not doing enough.

13:10 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:10 Speaker 1 If that's the right terminology. You're out of you mind, but-

13:12 Speaker 2 It, it was a little bit more sharp than-

13:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, he used all the right term in, in, in the sense the biggest... Usually we expect when somebody come from the outside, he will speak in Hebrew or in English.

13:24 Speaker 2 Right.

13:25 Speaker 1 He spoke in Yiddish. Nobody could claim that the game is not on. Everybody was very clear where is he heading. But if you look on the Rebbe wording afterward, that's what the Rebbe basically said, "I want you to duplicate what you do. I want you to, whatever you have is very limited." Basically, the famous speech of the Rebbe-

13:47 Speaker 2 Right

13:47 Speaker 1 ... "I did whatever I can."

13:49 Speaker 2 Right.

13:49 Speaker 1 "Now it's your job." The same speech, just true a few years later, but it's the same speech.

13:54 Speaker 2 But that's how your father was saying. Your fa- your father-

13:56 Speaker 1 Mm

13:56 Speaker 2 ... was saying that people are not, are not being serious.

13:59 Speaker 1 Right. But that's the point, is Rebbe saying, "What are you doing? You didn't manage to do anything forward." It's not the same speech.

14:06 Speaker 2 No, but it, to me it, to me it, it, it seemed like your father was frustrated, like, uh, like, "I'm, he lead on this team of Lubavitchers or this group-

14:16 Speaker 1 Right

14:16 Speaker 2 ... and, uh, you guys seem like a bunch of jokesters. Like, like where, where, where are the people who are serious?"

14:22 Speaker 1 Right. So what's the difference and do whatever you can, the same language.

14:27 Speaker 2 Because, because it's, it's not like, um, he's not, he's not like, uh-

14:32 Speaker 1 Not trying to encourage

14:33 Speaker 2 ... like, for bringing in, you know, uh, you know, you have to do this, you have to do that, and like, this, this, it seemed like it really bothered him. I-

14:40 Speaker 1 Absolutely

14:41 Speaker 2 ... like, like, like, like, uh, like almost, uh, I mean, maybe it is the same thing. I think it's just more the, I think it's more this thing of insider outsider. You know, if a bring in, yeah, we all know the game. We're all in the game.

14:55 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

14:56 Speaker 2 Part of the game is to say X, Y, Z, and to, and to kvetched or, and to, and to berate ourselves, and then we continue on with our lives. You know, back to the-

15:04 Speaker 1 Definitely not. He did n- again, that's the reason I look at it as the same because if you're looking now past-

15:10 Speaker 2 A shcha, a bit close to the mic.

15:12 Speaker 1 If you're looking now past Teshri Nun daled, okay, after Rebbe's petirah. Why is now Lubavitch eight time the size? What happened?

15:23 Speaker 2 Right.

15:23 Speaker 1 We got a memo.

15:25 Speaker 2 Yeah.

15:25 Speaker 1 Rebbe's no longer here, we have to move around. Isn't that what happened? It's exactly what happened, in, in that perspective. There's many other reasons for it, but, but why didn't we have 4,000 shluchim Teshri Nun daled?

15:37 Speaker 2 Uh.

15:37 Speaker 1 Why didn't have... Forget it, 4,000, there was not enough human beings, okay? But let's say, why wouldn't have 2,000?

15:43 Speaker 2 Right.

15:44 Speaker 1 I mean, we know the amount of shluchim were there. Again, I don't know the exact number. I'm sure we can find out. Amount of shluchim there were Teshri Nun daled. Give or take, there were not were X, and now this X is four times-

15:56 Speaker 2 Four

15:56 Speaker 1 ... five times. Who knows how many?

15:57 Speaker 2 Right.

15:57 Speaker 1 These kids are shluchim to we, we can see the pictures.

15:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

16:00 Speaker 1 Start counting heads.

16:01 Speaker 2 Yes.

16:01 Speaker 1 That happened as a result of the Rebbe saying, basically, his major, major last speech, "I did whatever I can."

16:09 Speaker 2 Right.

16:09 Speaker 1 "I brought, I brought my queen or king all the way to the other side. Guys, if you're not gonna move forward, nothing gonna happen."

16:17 Speaker 2 Right.

16:17 Speaker 1 The, the, if you look in the world around us, no, no Jewish organization who's respecting self, that's not Lubavitch, says, "This is outstanding. It's unbelievable." A movement that had the prediction, definitely by other Jewish organization, was Lubavitch will collapse, literally. That was the conversation on the street, saying, "Look how big it is." I'm just saying that my father wording in that sicha was basically the same concept, said, "Look, we have potential." What he tried to say in the sicha is, "Look," in that his speech, was, "I'm one person. I run two schools. I run a yeshiva in Russia. I run th- this tremendous project of the, of the, of the Talmud in Hebrew, and French, and English. I have projects from here to the wazoo. I'm one person. You have an army. What's going on?"

17:11 Speaker 2 Right.

17:12 Speaker 1 So yeah, in a lot of ways, only an outsider can say it, but only an outsider understand the inside-

17:18 Speaker 2 Right

17:19 Speaker 1 ... play games of it. And I think that was his biggest benefit. He was, again, in and out.

17:25 Speaker 2 But did he real- did he really believe that Lubavi- that regular Lubavitchers were gonna, are... It's, look, your father had kisurinus that most people did not have.

17:33 Speaker 1 True.

17:33 Speaker 2 But so he wasn't, I don't think he was expecting people, other reg- other people to do what he was doing, but I think he w- he, what he probably meant, if I had to guess, is that people are not taking themselves seriously.

17:46 Speaker 1 Sure.

17:47 Speaker 2 Right?

17:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:47 Speaker 2 That you have, you have a potential that you're not, that you're not, that you're not, uh, actualizing, right? You-

17:54 Speaker 1 Yes

17:54 Speaker 2 ... you, you may not be me-

17:56 Speaker 1 Right

17:57 Speaker 2 ... but you-

17:57 Speaker 1 But not even you

17:58 Speaker 2 ... right, correct. D- you know, did he really think that they... So he sa- so it, it, it's, it's, it's not just that there's, it... Can you, can you be that without taking a step outside and being an outsider? Like, like, like so long as you're in the soup-

18:18 Speaker 1 Can, can you ever become your own chicken? Correct. Um It's a good question. I, I'm not sure that you can or you cannot, but I, I, again, let... Is it, the question, let's take a step backward. Let's say today, okay, when we know the situation. We know who's in the soup, outside the soup, who's playing near the soup, who's playing the stake, whatever it is. Is there ever a conversation, "Where we going?" Was anybody coming in and said, "Listen, Lubavitch should do A, B, C, D. We are Lubavitch, we should do A, B, C, D"? Nobody does that. Not in that, at least not in the, the global- Right ... right? And I think my father had this c- belief, dream, that the movement can become even more powerful, which, which clearly did. Which clearly did. There, there's no, there's no difference. There's no... There's a question, there's not even a question about it. Movement did move forward. Right. I mean, I talk, again, I try to talk as much as I can to Jewish organization, which is very entertaining. Right. And a lot of time they, they, you know, they look at Lubavitch with envy. I know maybe it's

25:15 Speaker 3 And my father gave a class Tanya in, in the Zibetsik, the, the 17th. And he- my grandfather said afterward that he's been teaching and learning Tanya, I don't know, for 50 years before, 40 years before. He said, "I never heard anybody teach our Tanya like this." It was a level beyond level that he understood that the men really comprehend it. The same-

25:35 Speaker 4 What, what attracted him to Tanya in the first place?

25:38 Speaker 3 His teachers. The teachers that he choose to become his teachers were Lubavitchers.

25:42 Speaker 4 Like who? Like who?

25:43 Speaker 3 Rav Sassonkin, Rav Eliazrov were two major figures here. His experience in yeshiva, in Lud, was done with, uh, Reb Chaim Sholom.

25:54 Speaker 4 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonialo, Torah Umesorah, and Hatalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Just one second, sir. I, so I don't, so clearly I don't know enough about your father. Your fa- I, I always thought that he, he, that he, he grew up, he grew up completely secular, correct?

26:57 Speaker 3 Yeah, but again, this is the fift- this is the '60s in Israel, '50s in Israel. The, the world is different then.

27:02 Speaker 4 No, but he grew up, he grew up in a family, what kind-

27:04 Speaker 3 It was a secular family completely

27:06 Speaker 4 ... His, his parents were secular academics?

27:08 Speaker 3 No, no, they were not academic. They were communists. They were-

27:11 Speaker 4 Communists?

27:11 Speaker 3 Yes. Not, not academic-

27:13 Speaker 4 But he-

27:13 Speaker 3 ... not just communists, yes

27:14 Speaker 4 ... was he kibbutzniks?

27:17 Speaker 3 Not really. They, they, they were involved with it. No, my grandfather was real communist. He made Aliyah to Israel 1924 and '26 as a communist Zionist.

27:26 Speaker 4 A communist Zionist from Russia.

27:27 Speaker 3 From Poland.

27:28 Speaker 4 From Poland.

27:28 Speaker 3 From Warsaw. Um-

27:30 Speaker 4 So, and so your father grew up in a communist home, and then what happened-

27:33 Speaker 3 Communist home, and then, but my grandfather always insisted, I'm just going to find this, gra- always insisted that, that he will have good Jewish education. As the line of the family was, "It's better to be an Apikores than Am Ha'aretz." You know, you g- we don't mind heretics. Heretics we like. It's the ignoramus and the idiots that we cannot handle.

27:57 Speaker 4 Right.

27:58 Speaker 3 So that was my grandfather line, and he sent him to a very good high school in Israel called, in Jerusalem, called Ma'aleh, which was in a modern terms would be a modern Orthodox school. It was not modern Orthodox. There was no modern yet to the term Orthodox. It was Orthodox school.

28:14 Speaker 4 Right.

28:15 Speaker 3 Um, again, the boys and girls, that was kind of small and limited, but again, it was very, content-wise it was very important, but it was a religious school, so to speak.

28:24 Speaker 4 Right.

28:25 Speaker 3 Then when my father was, again, and I heard three different stories, about 12, 14, or 15, he attached him Talmud teacher to teach him Talmud.

28:34 Speaker 4 Who attached him? You said that-

28:35 Speaker 3 My grandfather, yeah, my grandfather. Teach him, uh, Talmud. And he said the same line, "I don't mind you be a heretic, but ignoramus you cannot be. You cannot be an Am Ha'aretz."

28:44 Speaker 4 So your father started learning Gemara only at 12, 13, 14?

28:46 Speaker 3 Maybe 14, 15, yeah.

28:48 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

28:49 Speaker 3 But he had, my father had a photographic memory or very close to it. So everything he read, everything he l- he kept-

28:57 Speaker 4 Right

28:58 Speaker 3 ... in his mind. He kept a meticulous list of what he learns every day, Gemara, Mishnah, Tanakh, Rambam, Tanya, Midrashim, Zohar, whatever you want. It's a whole list of it, what he learned every single day, and he kept a list of it-

29:11 Speaker 4 Mm

29:11 Speaker 3 ... what he did and what he didn't. Um, but again, the memory was unbelievable.

29:16 Speaker 4 Right.

29:16 Speaker 3 So when he decided that he's finishing high school, I think he was 16, 17, he went to yeshiva for about three weeks. That was his whole experience in yeshiva world, three weeks, maybe three.

29:27 Speaker 4 Just like ki- like a Mayanot summer, like-

29:30 Speaker 3 Yeah, Mayanot summer. Yeah, it was a bit of, I think Shlomo Carlebach was not like the, Shlomo Carlebach, yes, Shlomo Carlebach should be, be happy by the comparison, but you know, it was a bit more serious a prism then. I mean-

29:42 Speaker 4 Are, are you sure?

29:43 Speaker 3 No, but it's amazing. I, I, it seemed like he was more serious of a person than Shlomo Carlebach. Um-

29:50 Speaker 4 Yeah

29:50 Speaker 3 ... uh, that's what it seems like.

29:52 Speaker 4 But-

29:52 Speaker 3 My father appreciated that he was-

29:53 Speaker 4 Right

29:53 Speaker 3 ... a serious man and he has the ability to, uh, move people forward-

29:58 Speaker 4 Right

29:59 Speaker 3 ... in his own way. Um, a bit rough, but yeah. So my father experience was different.

30:06 Speaker 4 So he, why did he go to Lubavitch yeshiva in Lud?

30:08 Speaker 3 Because again, he's too mishpin, so to speak.

30:10 Speaker 4 In this school in, in Maaleh, he-

30:12 Speaker 3 No, no. There was, he's already was a bit older, but here's-

30:14 Speaker 4 But in, in Yerushalayim he was-

30:15 Speaker 3 In Yerushalayim, in the area, the people that he met. Look-

30:19 Speaker 4 So he, he l- he took a liking to these Lubavitchers.

30:21 Speaker 3 Lubavitchers. And this, and it seems to him-

30:24 Speaker 4 Yeah

30:24 Speaker 3 ... look-

30:25 Speaker 4 So he went to Lud for three weeks?

30:26 Speaker 3 That's the entire story. Again, he came to visit after back and forth-

30:29 Speaker 4 But that was-

30:29 Speaker 3 ... but his yeshiva experience, three weeks.

30:31 Speaker 4 Why didn't he stay more?

30:33 Speaker 3 I think he felt useless. What do you mean more? It's, it's, look, in the end of the day, he-

30:36 Speaker 4 Where did he go after that?

30:38 Speaker 3 University.

30:39 Speaker 4 University's not useless, or he needed a degree?

30:42 Speaker 3 He need, he wanted a degree and he did biology and chemistry, so it was not easy degree, so to speak. In Hebrew U then it was even harder than today. Um, no, but he wanted, I think he wanted his freedom. Yeshiva is very constraining. If you are a free person-

30:58 Speaker 4 Right

30:58 Speaker 3 ... yeshiva is the place you don't wanna be.

31:00 Speaker 4 Right.

31:00 Speaker 3 You have to wake up in the morning, go to Sdom, you know, and I presume the, the mishpin then were exactly the mishpin now. Mishnas were the same.

31:07 Speaker 4 Right.

31:07 Speaker 3 You know, you have to go, you have to wake up. I presume they didn't give you punishments then for giving you, uh, $10 knasses. Whatever it-

31:14 Speaker 4 Oh, what, $10?

31:15 Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. But probably 10 agorot or whatever it was, whatever it is. It was all. But I'm saying, in the end of the day, he, he did his experience, and he grew, and he... Again, I think if you have a memory that is unbelievable-

31:29 Speaker 4 Right

31:29 Speaker 3 ... and you have abilities that are unbelievable. I mean, I met other people who have photographic memory or tremendous memory, but they never used it. They never knew how to harness it properly.

31:40 Speaker 4 Correct.

31:40 Speaker 3 He did.

31:41 Speaker 4 Right.

31:42 Speaker 3 It didn't work very well. He had a tremendous concentration skills. You know, we talk about, uh, avoda. I mean, it was a really, a really term. The rabbis used to talk about this, real avoda, in the sense of concentrating on davening. My father used to pray for hours, not on every day. Every day he davened very quickly, but Shabbos, davened for hours. And when I asked him about it, he did talk about the idea that how you develop concentration for a longer period of time than just two and a half seconds. And, and he, he managed to develop it. He writes to my mother on the letters, we engage, "You should not be worried if you see me standing near a window for five hours without moving." These, that was his abilities. So that was... The Baal Shem Tov was different, though. The Rebbe decision-

32:34 Speaker 4 Oh, the Baal Shem Tov was different? Your father was different.

32:36 Speaker 3 Also, Baal Shem Tov was different. The, the, the Chochmah, Binah, Da'as was much more serious then.

32:41 Speaker 4 You think so?

32:42 Speaker 3 Yeah. I see it from the Rebbe Sichas. Rebbe, we, I presume, yeah, it's my presumption. Again, not knowledgeable enough.

32:49 Speaker 4 This is, uh, uh-

32:49 Speaker 3 Too young yet

32:50 Speaker 4 ... I published a disclaimer already-

32:51 Speaker 3 Yeah

32:51 Speaker 4 ... on the podcast.

32:52 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:52 Speaker 4 It's okay.

32:53 Speaker 3 But-

32:54 Speaker 4 That we're, we don't know anything, and that, uh-

32:56 Speaker 3 We assume what we assume and we-

32:57 Speaker 4 Yes, correct.

32:58 Speaker 3 Right. So my assumption is if you look at the Rebbe Sichas of the beginning years, they're much deeper. I mean, they're much deeper.

33:07 Speaker 4 Yeah.

33:07 Speaker 3 They bring, first of all, the Yiddish is harder. The terms are harder. Rebbe talks about much more Kabbalah. There's a lot more siddurs, much more demands approaching.

33:16 Speaker 4 I mean, and now often Beis Sichas are, they're hard to decipher.

33:20 Speaker 3 Right, but I'm talking about you go back to Yud, Yud Aleph.

33:23 Speaker 4 No, but I'm saying at the last years, they, they get pretty-

33:27 Speaker 3 Yeah, but they're not hard. They, they, they different. They're not, the language is not hard is what the Rebbe wants-

33:32 Speaker 4 Right

33:32 Speaker 3 ... is hard, it's different. But here, the Rebbe use a much, I think much higher pedestal.

33:37 Speaker 4 Uh-huh. No, I agree. I agree.

33:39 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

33:39 Speaker 4 That's how it looks to me also.

33:40 Speaker 3 Right. So I, I presume personally, my father has a great brain.

33:45 Speaker 4 Right.

33:46 Speaker 3 And he's looking for people to talk with.

33:49 Speaker 4 Right.

33:49 Speaker 3 What are the people that equal or above equal? How many can he look up to?

33:54 Speaker 4 Right.

33:56 Speaker 3 Who you gonna go? Where you gonna go?

33:58 Speaker 4 You're saying the, the, the Rebbe was a person who, who, who, who could, who could, uh, who he could, who, who he could be impressed by?

34:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. Who I can look up to and, and give. When the Rebbe gave advice, he took it. He understood the Rebbe had two parts.

34:13 Speaker 4 So why, why, you see, why did it take him so many years to, uh, you said he came to Yechidus in 57Lamed.

34:19 Speaker 3 As we said before, there was no money, man. There was no-

34:21 Speaker 4 It was a money thing

34:22 Speaker 3 ... uh, sure, and it was a health thing, and, and it was very hard for him.

34:26 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

34:26 Speaker 3 I think the, I think this was the second time he left Israel. One was get engaged, I think, and if this was the second time. And he was also, he didn't go on his behalf. He went on behalf of Shazar. He went to the, the , right, in 57Lamed

34:41 Speaker 4 That's when he went?

34:42 Speaker 3 He was sent by the, by Shazar, his representative to the Rebbe for

34:46 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

34:48 Speaker 3 That's the first time he left.

34:49 Speaker 4 So that was the first time he saw the Rebbe.

34:50 Speaker 3 First time he saw the Rebbe, but this is after the Rebbe already, already intervened in his life.

34:54 Speaker 4 So what was, you said, so he, we, so he came to Yechidus and?

34:58 Speaker 3 And he was saying, "We come to Yechidus, so let's start talking." Right? So they, we know the conclusion of it from the Rebbe perspective. Right? Father didn't talk about it.

35:07 Speaker 4 How do we know?

35:08 Speaker 3 'Cause Rebbe wrote to Shazar-

35:10 Speaker 4 That?

35:10 Speaker 3 ... that he saw many more qualities in him that even he wasn't even told about. My father came out of the Yechidus and made a decision never to ask the, the Rebbe anything physical.

35:22 Speaker 4 Why this?

35:23 Speaker 3 The, the Rebbe going for spirituality. You don't go for physicality. And we know what the Rebbe did. That's what father did tell me. Every Yechidus, they did not let him speak about spirituality.

35:34 Speaker 4 Did not let him?

35:34 Speaker 3 I mean, they got into this, but the opening conversation was only about, you know, "How are you doing? How's your family? How's Bilka?" You know, and it was much more physical.

35:43 Speaker 4 Very interesting.

35:44 Speaker 3 If I say, well, it seemed like the Rebbe, like, knew it, like he made a decision and Rebbe, but like, "No, I'll, it's my way."

35:51 Speaker 4 Very interesting. So your fa- your father wanted to spiritualize the Rebbe almost.

35:55 Speaker 3 Yeah, in that sense.

35:56 Speaker 4 To spiritualize the relationship.

35:57 Speaker 3 In relation.

35:58 Speaker 4 And your, and the, Rebbe-

36:00 Speaker 3 No, and, and it's funny because one of the last things Rebbe told my father, right, was that, told him, "From Sara Agra." Father went to all the, uh, controversy with the local, uh, Litvaks, and, um-

36:17 Speaker 4 Oh, they're, they're, they're, they're very hard to get into a fight with.

36:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. Way. They're very, very polite, kind men. And, um, so, but he suffered from it tremendously. When he went to the Rebbe-

36:27 Speaker 4 What, they were coming after him for being too open?

36:29 Speaker 3 For the Gemara. No, for the Gemaras. They, they, you know, they, he came forward about the, you know, the claim was Tsuras Afa, which mean, of course, there's no holiness and it's, it's all made up nonsense, and we can tell, we know the Gemaras look for the years. That was a meshuga.

36:45 Speaker 4 Your father didn't enjoy this controversies?

36:48 Speaker 3 No, it was very painful, and, and, uh, and, uh-

36:50 Speaker 4 Why? He felt-

36:51 Speaker 3 No, first of all, the threats on life. I mean, women, they, they, they-

36:54 Speaker 4 Oh, they threatened his life?

36:55 Speaker 3 Well, we get phone calls at home. It was a terrible ordeal. It was really hard time.

37:00 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

37:00 Speaker 3 It was not, didn't last long, but you know, it's three, four weeks that get bombarded every day. Phone calls, curses on the phone, sp- you know, spitting in the street, you know, very-

37:11 Speaker 4 Pash, Pashkevil? The, the Pashkevil.

37:12 Speaker 3 Pashkevil in the entire project, entire project.

37:14 Speaker 4 Oh, wow. You got, you got the whole mesh on the few minutes.

37:16 Speaker 3 Yeah, but it wasn't even mesh. It was more done by outside sources above that.

37:20 Speaker 4 Ponovitch.

37:21 Speaker 3 Yeah, that area. Um, and- And, you know, but when we came to the Rebbe, the Rebbe told him, "No," and once he said, "According to the pain, according to suffering, the reward."

37:35 Speaker 4 Right.

37:35 Speaker 3 It was the first time. My father nodded his head. Second time I think the Rebbe told him this, almost sure it was second time, told my father, the Rebbe told my father, "Nu, where is the aggrah?" My father, the Rebbe tell my father, "Nu." So my father said, "Maybe efshar baolam haba." He said, "No, here in this world." I'm still waiting, but you know, th- that was the, the relationship. Every time my father... It seems like it was a normal, common practice. My father wants spiritual. The Rebbe said the physical world is very important. And if you look at it, this is really part of the method that the Rebbe always talked about with him, is the physical world, the physical existence, the, the be connected to the world, take more projects. It's more spiritual, it's more physical, not spiritual.

38:18 Speaker 4 Very interesting.

38:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. That's, that's the way I look at it. And, and because my father so-

38:26 Speaker 4 Did your, did your father, was your father Mekubal this in the end? Did he saw this as like, um, as like, uh, something that he had, like, like what, did he explain how, what this, what this, what this taught him?

38:38 Speaker 3 No. No, he didn't. But he, I think what it meant to him, it meant for everybody, the Rebbe wanted... Second thing is the Rebbe is probably one of the only Rebbes, if anybody else, who talk about the physical wealth of his Hasidim, that he wants everybody to be rich, he wants everybody to be wealthy.

38:54 Speaker 4 Right.

38:54 Speaker 3 I think even the Rebbe demand, if you think about retrospect, everybody will wear kapotes and shtreimels.

38:59 Speaker 4 Right.

39:00 Speaker 3 Silk kapote, which the Rebbe insisted.

39:01 Speaker 4 Right.

39:02 Speaker 3 Which I know, don't know why they don't keep it as much, but Rebbe talk about silk kapotes is signs of richness.

39:09 Speaker 4 Right.

39:09 Speaker 3 You know, because it costs more money, you have to spend more time wearing, and you have to ch- and it, in a few years it break, and it's broken apart, tearing, you know, it's silk, it's not there. You have to buy a new one. Th- there's something there with Rebbe want Hasidim to be financially set, physically s- You know, Rebbe cared about this stuff, which again, I think that my father with it is very serious, that you have to do physical world as important. And if you look at it in retrospect about everything we do, everything we publish, we're one of the only publishers that took care of the outside appearances, not just the content-

39:48 Speaker 4 Right

39:48 Speaker 3 ... it's also the shape and the format and the, you know, and the, and the... Again, if you j- just show the Rambam Mishna. You know, when you have the... Again, we have a good partner this-

39:58 Speaker 4 Yeah

39:58 Speaker 3 ... you know, the, the, the Koren Publishing, but it's colorful, it's pictured, there's images, there's information there that might be more interesting to-

40:04 Speaker 4 You're saying your father could have easily said that it's more the content, I don't care about the publication-

40:10 Speaker 3 Right, I'll make it, right, I'll make it a black and white

40:11 Speaker 4 ... let everybody just deal with it.

40:12 Speaker 3 Exactly. And he didn't. From the get-go, he was worried about the shape and the form and so on and so forth. Anyway, show the one, even from the first Gemara, 1961, before they actually, the first book came in, it's all very, have images of it. Uh, that was a perspective. So it's very similar in that sense. You know, you have to take care of yourself. You have to worry about appearances. You have to worry about to look good, to be-

40:40 Speaker 4 In a way, it's harder to have, uh, in a way, it's harder to have, um, to have, I guess, a Rebbe like that than it is to have a Rebbe that's purely Rochnius, I feel.

40:54 Speaker 3 Right.

40:55 Speaker 4 I, I, I think there, it, it, there is, there is almost something intuitive about, you know, it, the Rebbe is Rochnius and, and, and that's where, that's where, that's where I'm gonna keep him because that's, that's going to make it feel more, uh, respected and higher.

41:13 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

41:13 Speaker 4 And yeah, but the real, the real, the real, uh, uh, the real point is that it's not just there, it's not just Rochnius, it's also in... Like I'm not, I'm not going to let you, uh, what would be the word? I'm not gonna let you, uh, you said spiritualize me. I'm not going to let you, I'm not going to let you, uh-

41:32 Speaker 3 Idolize me in this-

41:33 Speaker 4 Uh, yes

41:34 Speaker 3 ... this level.

41:35 Speaker 4 Correct. I'm not gonna let you spiritualize me. I'm going to force you to, to, to see me as I am, and, and still, and still find respect or still find-

41:46 Speaker 3 Right

41:46 Speaker 4 ... still find something.

41:48 Speaker 3 Yeah, I, I, and, and look, but if you look at it, you... Again, I think it's very apparent if you look in that perspective, the Rebbe give dollars, it's tzedakah.

41:56 Speaker 4 Right.

41:56 Speaker 3 Usually Hasidim go the other way around, you give tzedakah to the Rebbe. Lubavitch is the other way around. We, we are the one-

42:03 Speaker 4 Right

42:03 Speaker 3 ... who receive the dollars.

42:05 Speaker 4 Right.

42:05 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe, a lot of time, you see the Rebbe when he talks about, he wants the, the, the gashmius to be good. Take something, take it to another level. The fact Lubavitcher women are wearing sheitels that cost millions of dollars, um, it's a, it's concept to Lubavitch. Rebbe didn't say to cover your hair and put a sheitel in your head. You know, you can go to the old-fashioned English-

42:32 Speaker 4 Right

42:32 Speaker 3 ... wigs, you know, ugly, disgusting, made from horse hair, whatever it is. You know, he wanted people to look good, and it's part of the physical-

42:40 Speaker 4 Well, he also, he also wanted people to wear sheitel, and he knew that if they didn't feel good about it, they wouldn't wear it.

42:47 Speaker 3 Right. But I'm saying, but it's exactly the same conversation. The Rebbe is only a spiritual Rebbe. I gave an order, you do it.

42:52 Speaker 4 Right.

42:52 Speaker 3 You don't ask the question about if I should wear human, human-made hair-

42:58 Speaker 4 Right

42:58 Speaker 3 ... and human custom-made and blah, blah, blah. You don't even think about it. You're like, you know, okay, I'll have a sheitel and that's it. Look, some of the Hasidim wear sheitel already in Russia.

43:08 Speaker 4 Right.

43:08 Speaker 3 I have to say these things today will not pass anybody as a sheitel. It was not even grade level. But that was part of the thing that Rebbe talked about it. So I think, yeah, the physical thing was an important thing.

43:21 Speaker 4 Mm.

43:22 Speaker 3 Again, I, I think some, obviously there's limitation to everything, you know, but-

43:28 Speaker 4 As we approach the two-year mark of this podcast, Homesick for Lubavitch has become a household name in the Lubavitch community, with thousands of views each week on YouTube alone, as well as thousands more on the various podcast platforms. We have a devoted audience that listens regularly to the conversations and shares their thoughts with their families and communities. If you would like to sponsor an episode or advertise on one of our episodes, please reach out to bentzi@yuvalamedia.com. That's bentzi@yuvalamedia, Y-U-V-L-A media.com. You, you kind of mentioned it earlier with, with, uh, Shalom Chaim and the, and the nostalgia of the past. And some of that, some, some of that has, has accuracy or, or has truth to it, obviously. But there's also a thing where it, it's easy... Uh, there's this tendency, well, Lubavitch was then because, eh, you know, it, it has this, it has this feeling. There's no, there's no internet. People were living this... And it's like, yeah, but that's not the kuntz. Even if it's true, that's not the point.

44:32 Speaker 3 Right.

44:32 Speaker 4 The point is you have to make it now.

44:34 Speaker 3 True.

44:35 Speaker 4 The world that, the world that feels mundane and feels, uh, familiar and feels boring and feels, uh, occ- preoccupied with other stuff and, you know, uh, you, you wake, you, your, your, your, you're waking up and doing the things that feel very, very, uh, ordinary.

44:54 Speaker 3 Right.

44:55 Speaker 4 That's where it's at. It's not-

44:56 Speaker 3 Absolutely

44:57 Speaker 4 ... it's not, it's not in the world of the romantic world of-

45:00 Speaker 3 Of the past

45:00 Speaker 4 ... I think that, I think that's a word. I think people like to romanticize, romanticize Reb, romanticize Lubavitch, romanticize Hasidus.

45:09 Speaker 3 Right. And, and-

45:09 Speaker 4 And you come, and you come into, you come... If, I mean, in your father's case, he comes to Hasidus, and like, "I'm gonna make the rebbe my, you know, rochnius."

45:17 Speaker 3 Mm.

45:18 Speaker 4 And yeah, like you, like you're saying, it interesting that the, the rebbe always pushed back and, and, and, and-

45:24 Speaker 3 In town

45:24 Speaker 4 ... and insisted that, that, uh, you, you can't romanticize me.

45:28 Speaker 3 Right. And it-

45:28 Speaker 4 You can't romanticize this.

45:30 Speaker 3 Right.

45:30 Speaker 4 We're gonna have a relationship that, that, that can feel-

45:33 Speaker 3 Right

45:33 Speaker 4 ... a little bit too ordinary.

45:35 Speaker 3 Right. So my father actually asked the rebbe, I saw it la- It's a book was coming out, mm, soon as we call it here, which we don't know how long that will be soon.

45:46 Speaker 4 You have a new book coming out?

45:47 Speaker 3 Yeah, we always have books coming out. It's not, it's not a chidush. I mean, the next one we have, you know, the we call it Mishna and Rambam in English, which is a big deal, but the book about interviews with my father through the years.

45:58 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

45:58 Speaker 3 It's like a selection of interviews. In one of the interviews he quotes himself saying, "I asked the rebbe about two things. One is, what do you feel about the guru-like reverence that people look up to you? People look at you as a guru, you know, everything you do, every action you do is, is, is holy and spiritual." And the other one he asked him, "What do you think about using LSD and other drugs?" That was the same, in the same, probably was the same letter. One day we'll find it, but-

46:27 Speaker 4 Uh-huh

46:28 Speaker 3 ... if it was a letter, maybe it was a conversation, I don't know. But he said that the rebbe answered, on the guru thing, he said, "I could not feel more detached from it."

46:36 Speaker 4 The rebbe wrote to your father-

46:37 Speaker 3 Yeah. Or he wrote or he said, I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't have it in front of me, but-

46:41 Speaker 4 But your, the, your father said in an interview that he had asked the rebbe this question-

46:44 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah

46:44 Speaker 4 ... and this was the answer.

46:45 Speaker 3 He said, the, the, there's nothing more detaching. People look at the rebbe... And, and my father explained this n- this notion, people look at you like with these big cow eyes. A big oh. This is not what Lubavitch is. It's not what the rebbe wanted.

47:02 Speaker 4 And, and he didn't like it.

47:03 Speaker 3 He didn't like it at all. Then he said also about the med- the using drugs and so and so, he said-

47:08 Speaker 4 What did he say about that?

47:09 Speaker 3 He said, "You need to remember that all the chidush of Hasidus," the rebbe said, "is that human have the ability to control themselves."

47:17 Speaker 4 Ah.

47:18 Speaker 3 If you have to use other substances, something there is even wronger than, is even wronger than you think. A person take care of himself. That's all the chidush of Hasidus, that you overcome the- Yeah. That's the big chidush. And obviously, if you have doctors and he tell you, you have to take them on time for something else. I'm talking about something in a regular ba- this is not a solution.

47:39 Speaker 4 Yes.

47:40 Speaker 3 That's, again, but that's two things the rebbe said. So one of them was about the guru thing, and I think rebbe, if you think about it, if you look in a lot of ways, if, again, when we have... Let's put it before, before, uh, 1992, before Teshte moon base, okay? Rebbe didn't like, in a lot of ways rebbe did not like this blind do everything I do. A lot of the things changed later, and when you look at the, it took the rebbe time till example, he insist or told everybody to pray Rabbeinu Tam.

48:12 Speaker 4 Right.

48:13 Speaker 3 Have full... I did not have Rabbeinu Tam in, in Shuloth nor Shirothana. I mean, it was, it was more rare over in my time, Darshin and Zion were already rare. Most people already have two pairs. It was not unheard of.

48:25 Speaker 4 Why didn't you have?

48:26 Speaker 3 Well, father decided I'm not ready yet. He said I should be 20 when you should get it.

48:30 Speaker 4 Ah, so your father didn't, didn't accept that Rabbeinu Tam-

48:33 Speaker 3 Well, yeah. No, he said you should have Rabbeinu Tam, I agree, but later. I got it when I was 15 and a half when I was 16, but it's part of the thing we did to do more spiritual things, but he, I did not have Rabbeinu Tam when I started. Um-

48:46 Speaker 4 So I wanted to ask you, y- y- we're talking a lot about your father, which I, I, this whole conversation about the, the physical and the spiritual is very, very interesting. But it's not only about your father, I'm talking to you. What was it like for you to grow up in a home, um, where, where your father is on one hand a Lubavitcher? I, I, I think you, you... Is, is that how you thought of it?

49:09 Speaker 3 No.

49:10 Speaker 4 That's a, that's a, like, but, but you're being sent to Lubavitch yeshiva.

49:15 Speaker 3 But yeah, but that was very interesting also.

49:17 Speaker 4 How, how did you deal with this dissonance, is my question.

49:20 Speaker 3 I, I, I did not. I did not deal with it. I mean, in a sense, look, I went, I was sent... Let, let's put it that way. When my d- my sister was about to go, I think, to elementary school, maybe high school, they asked the rebbe where to send her.

49:35 Speaker 4 Where, where do your parents live at the time?

49:37 Speaker 3 In, with the still... I mean, sorry. No, in the timeline. They're still in the same place in the German colony in Jerusalem. This is about, uh, two kilometer.

49:45 Speaker 4 I'm coming from there.

49:46 Speaker 3 Yeah. I live in the German colony.

49:47 Speaker 4 Your, your parents' home was-

49:48 Speaker 3 Yeah

49:48 Speaker 4 ... that's where you grew up.

49:49 Speaker 3 Yeah.

49:49 Speaker 4 The German colony.

49:50 Speaker 3 Yeah. In Ga- Gretz Street.

49:52 Speaker 4 Ah, yes. Sure.

49:52 Speaker 3 Jascha Street.

49:53 Speaker 4 Sure. Sure.

49:54 Speaker 3 So m- m- m- again, I don't know if she was in high school or elementary school. They asked the rebbe where to send her.

50:03 Speaker 4 Hmm.

50:03 Speaker 3 And the rebbe did not send her to Lubavitch school. If-

50:07 Speaker 4 The rebbe's answer was not a Lubavitch school.

50:09 Speaker 3 No. He sent her to Skipper in Makom Shalibo Chafetz. I think it was probably a, uh, probably was high school already. Makom Shelo Ba Chofetz doesn't work on, on a elementary school. I think, again, I don't know the date.

50:21 Speaker 4 Well, that, but that also means that your parents hadn't sent her to Lubavitch school beforehand.

50:24 Speaker 3 No, for sure. No, no, but that I understand, you know. Whatever, they were different-

50:28 Speaker 4 Your mother considered herself Lubavitcher or also-

50:30 Speaker 3 Oh, God. My mother? Mother never moved. My mother was Lubavitch through and through.

50:36 Speaker 4 But she-

50:36 Speaker 3 Anything else

50:37 Speaker 4 ... but she deferred to your father on these things.

50:40 Speaker 3 I don't know if she deferred to my father. I think it might be even her decision. Maybe she felt the Lubavitch education was not good. Can be, Mother went to the Sorbonne.

50:47 Speaker 4 Ah.

50:47 Speaker 3 Mother had a master's in psychology. She, she might have different feeling.

50:51 Speaker 4 Oh, so she identified as Lubavitcher, but she didn't do everything like every-

50:55 Speaker 3 I don't know. That I, I have no idea how to define my-

50:57 Speaker 4 But you, but y-

50:58 Speaker 3 No, I don't know where, I don't know where she come from. I don't know what-

51:01 Speaker 4 But you said she didn't vouch as a Lubavitcher.

51:03 Speaker 3 No, I didn't think she didn't send to school, she didn't send to school, but she, you know, she was one of the heads of the Shevet Chabad Yerushalayim. I mean, again-

51:10 Speaker 4 So she also had this-

51:11 Speaker 3 Absolutely, but she mu- she was much more closer to the typical Lubavitch and, and much more of us. Again, but we were different.

51:18 Speaker 4 There's a reason why she married your father.

51:20 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

51:21 Speaker 4 Okay.

51:21 Speaker 3 There's no question about it. There was a reason for that. Listen, she, she came to Eretz Israel, and she-

51:26 Speaker 4 So the shtitel that you grew up with... Oh, sorry, continue.

51:29 Speaker 3 Let's g- um, go back this. You, she came to Eretz Israel and she looked for a class for women in Chassidus.

51:35 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

51:35 Speaker 3 This is 1963, okay?

51:39 Speaker 4 After she got married?

51:40 Speaker 3 Before.

51:40 Speaker 4 Before.

51:41 Speaker 3 This was before. She, she came, I think she finished school, and she came here for, like, post-high, post-grad school, post college.

51:47 Speaker 4 Right.

51:48 Speaker 3 Like for a few weeks, few months. She looked for somewhere to teach Ch- Chassidus class. You understand, 1963, nobody taught women anything.

51:55 Speaker 4 Right.

51:55 Speaker 3 And definitely not Chassidus. Somebody told her that there's a rabbi, a young man, not even a rabbi, I think, teaching a class in the pr- pr- president house, maybe she can get an invitation.

52:07 Speaker 4 Oh, that's how they met?

52:08 Speaker 3 That's how they met the first time.

52:09 Speaker 4 Ah.

52:09 Speaker 3 Then they went on, so on and so forth. But I'm saying she was very intellectual, very, very astute. So I understand that, why she did not send. Again, I don't think it was, I'm not even sure what the situation in the community was. Maybe it was too far. Could be thousand reasons.

52:25 Speaker 4 So when we're talking about you growing up with a uncertainty of, of, of where exactly you stand, it was not-

52:31 Speaker 3 So-

52:31 Speaker 4 It was not between your parents.

52:33 Speaker 3 No, no, no.

52:33 Speaker 4 The dissonance was not between your parents.

52:34 Speaker 3 No, no, no. It was, again, what was the, this, it was a dissonance between the school I went to some of the stuff we did at home.

52:41 Speaker 4 Correct.

52:41 Speaker 3 But then because my father was a unique person, I could not tell you that it was because Lubavitch or anything to do with Lubavitch. Everything was because my father and mother were different people.

52:50 Speaker 4 You're saying wherever you would have gone, there would have been this-

52:52 Speaker 3 Yeah, it won't make any difference. I mean, it'd be Lubavitch, it, it doesn't matter. But the, but then we start going to Tzemach Tzedek. I mean, I mean, there was four or five. We went to Tzemach Tzedek, where my father was the acting rabbi of the Tzemach Tzedek shul in the Old City.

53:06 Speaker 4 Right, right.

53:07 Speaker 3 Which I'm now running over that, which is my, my position right now. At least officially. I don't, it doesn't have any power, obviously. But in theory, I'm the rabbi of Tzemach Tzedek. Um, I-

53:19 Speaker 4 Is the, is the kiddush better?

53:20 Speaker 3 No, a bit better. We gotta be better than the herring and... We got a little bit. It's a bit- ... upgrade this much. I'm saying it, their choices was not, wasn't because of Lubavitch, not Lubavitch. They were different people. I knew from a very young age that my father's a different person. Nobody of my friends had a parent like that. First of all, my father was flying a lot relative to people. People we had in the house, nobody could come to school and say, "Hey, the Prime Minister blah blah, or the Professor so and so was yesterday at home."

53:54 Speaker 4 Right.

53:55 Speaker 3 I did.

53:56 Speaker 4 Right.

53:56 Speaker 3 You know? Or, or, or, you know, oh, my fa-

53:58 Speaker 4 Your father's a famous, he's a, he's a celebrity.

54:00 Speaker 3 He was a cele- yeah, in that sense he was celebrity. I mean, if he was probably living today, he'd be the rabbi of Instagram. Um, he was very, very popular.

54:07 Speaker 4 You, you think so?

54:08 Speaker 3 No, no. I don't think Instagram is the right platform, but no, it can be definitely the, the voice of the people, maybe in a good, whoever podcast will be very, uh, impressive, people listen.

54:18 Speaker 4 Yeah.

54:18 Speaker 3 Um, so I'm saying it, it's clearly, clearly was a different house. So the Lubavitch thing was not the issue. They, they were just different people. You come home, just imagine that as a child.

54:30 Speaker 4 So how do you deal with that? How do you deal with that? Y- y- y- you know, you, you're basically saying y- I, I asked if you felt like you are Lubavitch. No, we weren't Lubavitch. So, so, so-

54:40 Speaker 3 No, so in-

54:41 Speaker 4 ... so what are you? 'Cause, 'cause you gave-

54:42 Speaker 3 One second. One, one second. You have to, you have to be give in, giving the, again, the Rebbe the credit. When I was 13, finished school, finished elementary school.

54:51 Speaker 4 Which school did you go to?

54:52 Speaker 3 Horev, it's a modern Orthodox school down the street here.

54:54 Speaker 4 Where your parents thought it was a good education.

54:56 Speaker 3 That was the best education at that time. I didn't learn anything, but they, they thought it's the best education.

55:01 Speaker 4 Yeah.

55:01 Speaker 3 I personally-

55:02 Speaker 4 Right

55:02 Speaker 3 ... didn't like it too much. Um, they asked the Rebbe where to send me.

55:06 Speaker 4 Right.

55:06 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe, without blinking, said to go to Lubavitch Yeshiva.

55:09 Speaker 4 Why?

55:11 Speaker 3 Really, did you, did Rebbe ever explain to anybody why he does what he does?

55:14 Speaker 4 No, so how do you... I, I, I'm asking if, to say, if, if you-

55:18 Speaker 3 Again, I have, I have a theory.

55:19 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

55:19 Speaker 3 I'm working on it, but it's a theory, okay? This is again, I, I'm working-

55:22 Speaker 4 'Cause your sister is there, said, Rebbe said-

55:24 Speaker 3 No, absolutely

55:25 Speaker 4 ... where she wants.

55:26 Speaker 3 Where she want, right. But again, I make my stories even better. So I asked the Rebbe-

55:29 Speaker 4 You have an older brother or you're a brother somewhere?

55:31 Speaker 3 No, I'm, I'm the first son.

55:32 Speaker 4 So you're the first son.

55:32 Speaker 3 She's older than me. My sister's only, I'm after. So Rebbe said, "Go to Lubavitch." You understand I didn't wanna go. I mean, I went to, I was, I went to a modern Orthodox school.

55:43 Speaker 4 Right.

55:44 Speaker 3 Going to Lubavitch seemed like a, a ridiculous concept-

55:49 Speaker 4 Right

55:49 Speaker 3 ... at the time, right? So I forced my father to ask the Rebbe again.

55:54 Speaker 4 You wore a black hat by bar mitzvah?

55:55 Speaker 3 Yeah, but I was bar mitzvah, you know.

55:57 Speaker 4 Uh-huh, right.

55:59 Speaker 3 You know, I did not pay attention to too much after that I forced my father to ask the Rebbe again

56:05 Speaker 4 Right

56:05 Speaker 3 'cause I, I really was not happy with it. And the Rebbe said, "Baal Teshuva."

56:11 Speaker 4 Uh.

56:11 Speaker 3 I went to Lud, okay? Right, we're not gonna talk about Lud, but Lud, Lud was an experience.

56:16 Speaker 4 And upset.

56:18 Speaker 3 And upset, right? But when I graduate Lud, okay?

56:22 Speaker 4 Yeah.

56:23 Speaker 3 When I graduate Lud, sorry. When I graduate Lud again, I asked the Rebbe again, and this time I ask, and my father's the one who submitted it because, you know, you need to get some connection to get answers. I asked the Rebbe where to go. Is it Yeshivat Ponevez?

56:37 Speaker 4 Right.

56:37 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe answer was, "Malchum Shaliach Chafetz." I did go to Mir, but-

56:43 Speaker 4 So the Rebbe wanted you for a few years in Baal Teshuva.

56:45 Speaker 3 Right. So my theory is that it had to do with the fact that I had cancer after.

56:49 Speaker 4 You had cancer after?

56:50 Speaker 3 I had cancer when I was 15 and a half, which was Shiur Beis, Shiur Katana. So I believe, and the Rebbe saved my life. It's a famous story. Um-

56:58 Speaker 4 What's a famous to me?

57:01 Speaker 3 How long we have? Um, the, the, it's a very famous story. The famous story. I mean, I'm alive.

57:07 Speaker 4 When was this?

57:08 Speaker 3 This is now Taf Shin Nun. Taf Shin Nun.

57:12 Speaker 4 Taf Shin, you, you're diagnosed with cancer.

57:14 Speaker 3 Diagnosed with cancer at AML4.

57:16 Speaker 4 And the prognosis, and the prognosis is bad?

57:18 Speaker 3 It is 12%, 12% survival. Um, and the Rebbe took care. Rebbe basically gave Brochos , whatever you want. you name it. And the big thing that the Rebbe took responsibility, which my father, my father also mentioned in his book, My Rebbe, is that there was a point there if I should do bone marrow transplant. Right? The doctors in Israel were, um, debating it. There was opinion yes and no, but majority were for doing bone marrow transplant. And we asked the Rebbe. Rebbe said, "No. "

58:03 Speaker 4 Hmm.

58:05 Speaker 3 And when I came back to the doctors and told them this, they said nobody want to go for another sess- session of chemotherapy ever. And I came to the doctor smiling and saying, "Look, the Rebbe said, 'You're basically in a doubt,' 'cause you don't have one opinion, and therefore I do, not gonna do bone marrow transplant." They changed their opinion. They became unison. Came to me, to my father and myself and said, "We have to do bone marrow transplant. That's our new decision." So we asked the Rebbe again. Rebbe said, "No."

58:35 Speaker 4 Right.

58:35 Speaker 3 And Rebbe gave me a Brocha then that, um, which is a nice blessing by itself. So the Rebbe took care of me, really, and, and it, it's amazing 'cause the stories I heard, again, I was 15 and a half with cancer and, and my feeling about myself was a bit less. Anybody who came to ask a Brocha for me, anybody, next-door neighbor, cousins, family, friends of my father, friends of my mother, who came to ask Rebbe, gave a Brochos. Talking about Brocha, Brocha

59:24 Speaker 4 Right.

59:25 Speaker 3 So it was very, very unique in that perspective, okay? But then I graduate Lud, and then asked the Rebbe again, and then Rebbe go back to Malchum Shaliach Chafetz.

59:36 Speaker 4 So you, so the, uh, what's the connection between the two?

59:39 Speaker 3 So I have a feeling that the, the Rebbe felt that, again, Rebbe felt, the Rebbe predict that it'd be good for me to be there. Be easier to accept the Rebbe Brochos if you're in Lubavitch setting.

59:52 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

59:52 Speaker 3 Again, a theory. I'm still working on it. I'm not sure that is the-

59:56 Speaker 4 Mm

59:56 Speaker 3 ... most accurate thing. It's, it's very obvious that we have things in our life that you only can process them decades and decades after. So yeah. So then you become, obviously, you become Lubavitch. You make decisions accordingly as a child, as, as a young man.

1:00:16 Speaker 4 Right.

1:00:16 Speaker 3 That's where, you know, my own perspective changed.

1:00:18 Speaker 4 Uh, it feels like the, it, it, it based on what you said about your father and the ruchnius, gashmius thing, it feels like you could give a different explanation for your story.

1:00:27 Speaker 3 True.

1:00:28 Speaker 4 Which is the opposite almost, which is that after the Rebbe gave you this kind of Brocha and saved you, uh, right?

1:00:35 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:00:36 Speaker 4 Um, if you go to Lubavitch, you could, uh, lose your, you could lose who... I- if you continue in Lubavitch, you, you, you'll lose your, uh, your, you'll lose your grounding. It, it, you could very easily spir- like just completely spiritualize-

1:00:55 Speaker 3 New existence.

1:00:56 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:00:56 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, true.

1:00:57 Speaker 4 You're living on a Brocha now, right?

1:00:58 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah. And I think-

1:00:59 Speaker 4 It's like, like, no, no, you, you must remember that you have a little Chafetz in you. You have to-

1:01:04 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:01:04 Speaker 4 ... be real.

1:01:05 Speaker 3 True. Yeah.

1:01:06 Speaker 4 I- I'm just saying-

1:01:07 Speaker 3 Please help me do that

1:01:07 Speaker 4 ... I'm saying there's a, there's a, there's a-

1:01:09 Speaker 3 No, we can talk about the theories. Yeah. Look, it took time. But also the different, it was a different time. In that sense, Lubavitch was different. Every, every-

1:01:17 Speaker 4 But how do you deal with it is the question, right? 'Cause there is-

1:01:19 Speaker 3 How you deal with it?

1:01:20 Speaker 4 No, uh, no, because no, no, no, no.

1:01:21 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:01:21 Speaker 4 How did you, how did you deal? Uh, uh, can I ask you? I- I'll, I'll explain to you why it matters, at least to me. Okay. At the end, like anybody who doesn't fit in or doesn't feel like they fit in to the kind of normative, like, you know, the, you know, you, you, you, you, you have this insider-outsider-

1:01:42 Speaker 3 Perspective

1:01:42 Speaker 4 ... uh, po- position. Yes. Which I think everybody has on some level. I mean-

1:01:46 Speaker 3 Sure

1:01:46 Speaker 4 ... a lot of people have, and some people more, some people less to either side. You know, one of the biggest challenges of it is, okay, what about my kids?

1:01:58 Speaker 3 Right. So-

1:01:58 Speaker 4 What about my kids? Like I can basically kind of just do my thing And but then my kids, like, where do they go? So do I put them in back in... Like, I have walked out of the, I have climbed out of the soup.

1:02:11 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:02:11 Speaker 4 And I'm holding onto the, to the top of the pot for dear life.

1:02:15 Speaker 3 From the outside.

1:02:15 Speaker 4 So I don't... Well, from the inside, from the outside. I just don't wanna fall back in.

1:02:18 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:19 Speaker 4 And I have kids now. Am I going to throw them out of the pot, or am I gonna throw them back in the pot? Like, is there a way to, or am I going to insist that they hang on for dear life with me? And-

1:02:31 Speaker 3 I don't know. It's a very big question. I, I-

1:02:33 Speaker 4 But you know what I'm asking.

1:02:34 Speaker 3 Absolutely. And I have the s- I have a very hard time with my kids, and the same thing, and the same idea.

1:02:41 Speaker 4 How do you think your father dealt with it?

1:02:43 Speaker 3 My father, my father dealt with it. He really believe in the individual growth. So when you decide a way, he supported you. He laughed at you if he thought it was a bit, you know, ridiculous or a bit, you know. I remember I came back one day from yeshiva, and, uh, I just discovered, I think I was 14, 15. I just discovered that Lubavitch only Lubavitch pita. I never knew that, and I'm not really sure every- anybody ever does that. But in theory of it-

1:03:11 Speaker 4 Right

1:03:11 Speaker 3 ... that was in yeshiva. I know when you're bocher-

1:03:13 Speaker 4 Right

1:03:13 Speaker 3 ... everybody come with sticks, and so this is one of those-

1:03:16 Speaker 4 And you came home ki with a noach, with a noach-

1:03:19 Speaker 3 Noach lota. You didn't come with, ah.

1:03:20 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:03:21 Speaker 3 And my mother, my mother explained me that, uh, it's very cute, but, uh.

1:03:25 Speaker 4 Not here.

1:03:25 Speaker 3 Not here. And we, you know, obviously we keep

1:03:28 Speaker 4 Right

1:03:29 Speaker 3 ... said, "Go do yourself. Do whatever you do."

1:06:06 Speaker 4 Right.

1:06:07 Speaker 3 You know, I worked in the Shliach for a year and a half, and then I worked for Hillel on campus for, for several years.

1:06:13 Speaker 4 Here in Eretz Israel?

1:06:14 Speaker 3 In, uh, in overseas. I did in the United States. I did in Geneva. I did, uh, in Virginia. I did, uh, I did, uh, New York, then some Baltimore. I did eight years altogether. Then he came and said, "Come, come back home." And, um, I, I think, yeah, in one way he want you to grow the best you can, but in the end of the day, this is family. Take care of the, what a family does.

1:06:39 Speaker 4 Right.

1:06:39 Speaker 3 But I think it was a much more him than me. I think he had something that caused him to come to me and say, "Come back home."

1:06:48 Speaker 4 What do you mean?

1:06:50 Speaker 3 I think that he's the one who changed. To say, "I want you to come work back with the family." Because to- it was really hard for him to have somebody in the family taking over and so it, it was a process by him.

1:07:04 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:07:04 Speaker 3 He, he really believe in professionals, that people who ran this place were, their, whatever, their perspective were professionals, were not part of the family, were part of, not even all the same mindset.

1:07:15 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:07:15 Speaker 3 Professionals with the CEO, CFO, whatever it is.

1:07:17 Speaker 4 You're, you're, you're saying he, at some point, he, he maybe felt that independence isn't everything.

1:07:23 Speaker 3 Right. That you have to be part of it.

1:07:26 Speaker 4 Ah, interesting. Very interesting.

1:07:27 Speaker 3 Absolutely. And again, when people ask me now, I know, like I'm only 50, but people ask, "Oh, what's gonna happen in the future?" So am I taking now his example and keeping my kids away from this place till, uh, another 23 years? He was 73 when he chose that I'll be... When he called me to come work for him. 63, um, when he asked me to work for him. Is that what I have to do? Do I have to follow exactly the same instruction? Is that a spiritual thing? Do you keep exactly the same method? I don't know. I haven't even think about it yet really thoroughly. I'm saying he cared, and I think that's what, what's very important. He want you to be, as you said, we said at the beginning, at the beginning of the conversation, he wants you the best you you can be. Don't imitate me. Don't look at me, as the rabbi said, "Don't look at me as a guru."

1:08:17 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:08:17 Speaker 3 Take what I do, take what I did, and make, and grow with it. In, in a lot of ways, what he want, what he liked people to do was, "I'll give you a key, and you build a house around it. I'll give you the tools, but now become as big as you can."

1:08:30 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:08:31 Speaker 3 "Grow as much as you can." And even when, when I came here to the Steinhardt Center, and he told me, "Here's the keys. Build your house," really, we moved forward. I mean, when I came in here, again, this is my, uh, Hebrews, Hebrews, is that, you know, we, we started. We had, you know, we didn't finish the Hebrew Talmud yet.

1:08:54 Speaker 4 Right.

1:08:54 Speaker 3 Tanya was not done. The first three years I was here, we finished the Talmud, 2009, and then we took on Talmud in English, we have everywhere. Mishnah in Hebrew, Rambam in Hebrew, Tanakh in Hebrew.

1:09:09 Speaker 4 Right.

1:09:10 Speaker 3 Finished the Tanya. I think since I'm here, we printed about 300 titles.

1:09:15 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:09:16 Speaker 3 And we, we're about halfway through, maybe a bit less. My father left tremendous amount of quantity. So yeah, you have to grow. You have to do the best you can to make the most amount of ability that you have.

1:09:30 Speaker 4 Hmm.

1:09:30 Speaker 3 I, I keep telling to people, it took me time not to imitate my father, to be my own person, and it takes time, and a lot of time it's very hard to differentiate the differences between his method, his ideas, his concept to what I am, what's acceptable. It takes time, and part of you grow with it, and you have to make decision what is good for you, what's not good for you, what you can do, what you can't do. Just take the time it takes.

1:09:59 Speaker 4 You s- very interesting. You, so you said that your father, which is very interesting, your father, um, prioritized independence more earlier on, and then seems like he tr- he came around a little bit on that. Did he come around vis-a-vis the Lubavitch identity as well? Like, the, this idea that independence, but then maybe it's more important to have a little bit of a tribe or a little bit of a group?

1:10:25 Speaker 3 No.

1:10:26 Speaker 4 That it didn't come-

1:10:27 Speaker 3 No

1:10:27 Speaker 4 ... to the end.

1:10:28 Speaker 3 No, not to the end. More so, he was actually concerned-

1:10:33 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

1:10:33 Speaker 3 ... that people of, are just following instructions and not thinking. He-

1:10:40 Speaker 4 So until the end, he was concerned.

1:10:41 Speaker 3 Yeah, he was very concerned. His line was Lubavitch is a very good of creating junior level commanders.

1:10:49 Speaker 4 Right.

1:10:49 Speaker 3 Junior level officers, but they're not really creating major generals.

1:10:54 Speaker 4 Oh.

1:10:55 Speaker 3 And it's true till today.

1:10:56 Speaker 4 The opposite of Jonathan Sacks.

1:10:58 Speaker 3 Yes, in that sense.

1:10:59 Speaker 4 No, the opposite of the Jonathan Sacks line.

1:11:01 Speaker 3 Well, no, the, we create amazing commanders. We have people who are gonna run the platoons all the way down. They'll do the right thing, but they're not-

1:11:08 Speaker 4 But not generals

1:11:09 Speaker 3 ... they're not generals. And, and if you look at it, this, this, again, that's what his perspective was all the way till the end. He did not like conformity in general.

1:11:18 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:11:19 Speaker 3 That's the reason my father was famous for his blue shirts, which I personally like, but you know, he was famous for that.

1:11:26 Speaker 4 Right.

1:11:26 Speaker 3 He did not wear a white shirt. I mean, he had white shirts, but-

1:11:29 Speaker 4 But the, the, the joke is that 30 years earlier, nobody wore white shirts

1:11:33 Speaker 3 Right, obviously. That, that was-

1:11:35 Speaker 4 So you're saying when people changed to white shirts, he refused-

1:11:37 Speaker 3 Right

1:11:37 Speaker 4 ... to go along with it?

1:11:38 Speaker 3 Right. When my yeshiva, I mean, the line makes yeshiva decide one day, woke up in the morning and decided everybody should wear this, uh, six-piece, uh, yarmulkes, you know, the-

1:11:47 Speaker 4 Yeah

1:11:47 Speaker 3 ... fact I had 12 hours conversation with him, the longest conversation I had with Rosh Yeshiva about the yarmulkes, in fact, explain me why this is better than-

1:11:54 Speaker 4 Right

1:11:55 Speaker 3 ... regular-

1:11:56 Speaker 4 Right

1:11:56 Speaker 3 ... I don't know. I still didn't figure out.

1:11:58 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:11:58 Speaker 3 12 hours, didn't get it.

1:11:59 Speaker 4 12 hours of

1:12:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. My, very important, yes, and the fact the shirts have to stop being, you know, colorful to, and it was be- that was after my time, but that was the movement was there. The shoes, everything became all conform- formation. Father thought it, so I actually had called my father because they threatened to kick me out from Mir, the Leimic, for not wearing the right kippah.

1:12:20 Speaker 4 Really?

1:12:20 Speaker 3 Yeah, and my father said, "As long as you're in yeshiva, that's the rule of the yeshiva. You have to accept them, the yoke." But outside? No way. I mean, he, he couldn't, he, there was something that, you know, that the fact you wanna put him in a box was something that he will literally get upset. And I think everybody, if you think about it, everybody, you know, you're asking somebody, "Please define Lubavitcher."

1:12:49 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:12:50 Speaker 3 It's a very hard definition. Yes, you have the Mohicans, right? I presume. Most of my family, the Azimov, the Raskins, yeah, they're all fine. They're all in that box. But there's thousands, maybe tens of thousands outside who are 90% in, 95 in, 94 in, 40 in. What do you do with guys who, they can take my favorite, my favorite topic, beards. Don't have beards, but they're Lubavitchers.

1:13:16 Speaker 4 Right.

1:13:16 Speaker 3 I mean, they're born through Lubavitchers. The Rebbe, the ... Shukras, the Mammas, the Brins, they're great people. What do you do? I mean, and those who no longer wear kapotas, or those who never wear kapotas. You know, those, you know, all those kind of things are, are, Lubavitch is much bigger than that. Now, I believe in not saying that this was always like that. That's actually, I believe that was beginning in time. You had Lubavitchers who were 100% in, 90%, 70% in.

1:13:44 Speaker 4 Of course. Yeah, yeah.

1:13:45 Speaker 3 That's very obvious to me, that, that it was like that. And I'm not sure that everything, you know... I, I remember the first, first time I came to the Ohel Rasforum of Lud. There was Ohel. There was a variety of books there.

1:14:01 Speaker 4 Right.

1:14:02 Speaker 3 And we learned more than just the Rebbe Mamorin.

1:14:04 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:14:05 Speaker 3 People learned everything. I think we, I think we even have Breslov in the, in the library.

1:14:11 Speaker 4 Oh.

1:14:12 Speaker 3 With the years that go by, and it's all become very conformist, very small-minded, it's a problem.

1:14:20 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:14:20 Speaker 3 I tell people that one of my advice for shluchim, when people ask me, "What's the best advice to be a shluchim?" I said, "Keep learning," because if you only repeat the same sentence, there's always gonna be somebody in the last row in the shul who's gonna go, "Remember what you said last year."

1:14:34 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:14:34 Speaker 3 So you have to continue learning.

1:14:35 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:14:36 Speaker 3 You don't become very, very limited, and that is, this is something that I think is very important, in general, not to be part of the box, and the Rebbe wasn't.

1:14:48 Speaker 4 Right.

1:14:49 Speaker 3 I think, again, I don't know how the Rebbe got his information, and I'm sure people did research on it. In fact, the Rebbe knew what's going on in the world.

1:14:59 Speaker 4 Right.

1:15:01 Speaker 3 From art to data, the information, military, social, whatever, Rebbe knew that. Somebody had to feed it in.

1:15:13 Speaker 4 Right.

1:15:13 Speaker 3 Yeah, and the Rebbe did it, and Rebbecared about it. Rebbe had a world... I had, again, I have several stories, but the Rebbe tell somebody, "Go see a show."

1:15:23 Speaker 4 Right.

1:15:23 Speaker 3 You stay in New York, go to the zoo. You're in New York, go to the show. You know, Rebbe gave a very spread thing, and we, and the biggest, my father, in that sense, my father in that sense never want to limited the Rebbe.

1:15:36 Speaker 4 Don't make me ruchnius.

1:15:38 Speaker 3 Don't... Yeah, it's exactly the same line. Don't make me only ruchnius. The Rebbe was, uh, you think about it, the Rebbe had Machneh Israel.

1:15:45 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:15:46 Speaker 3 Machneh Israel is the most bizarre thing, right?

1:15:49 Speaker 4 You're talking about the development fund?

1:15:50 Speaker 3 Yeah, the development. The Rebbe, the, this bunch of rich people-

1:15:54 Speaker 4 Right

1:15:54 Speaker 3 ... that Lubavitch convinced many years to go year by year, give a nice check. Those times were big checks. 100 grand, I think, was their minimum requirement. And y- and if you look at the pictures of it, which there's videos, pictures, they, they came as couples usually.

1:16:11 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:11 Speaker 3 Not always, and they talk to the Rebbe as couples. They, they, they come, say it's different.

1:16:17 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:17 Speaker 3 A lot of I hear now, a lot of Rebbes said they don't talk to women.

1:16:20 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:21 Speaker 3 They have been told not to talk. This is passage by Lubavitch.

1:16:25 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:25 Speaker 3 That's the reason when, when I, when we talked about it and, you know, we mentioned about, oh, the good old days, yeah?

1:16:31 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:16:31 Speaker 3 People believe the good old days because we didn't have internet. There was other things. Lubavitch al- at least with Rebbe, Rebbe taught us, again, it was, I'm not sure it was always like that, that the world around us is our tool to use.

1:16:45 Speaker 4 Right.

1:16:46 Speaker 3 And I'm sure if the Rebbe was alive now, we'll have a Instagram page, and hopefully-

1:16:53 Speaker 4 You think, you think so?

1:16:53 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolut- I mean, somebody will have. I'm sure there's now Instagram page of the Rebbe. Twitter account, for sure. No question about that. Facebook.

1:17:01 Speaker 4 Huh.

1:17:02 Speaker 3 I'm not sure about TikTok. Okay, maybe TikTok is a bit too low, but you know.

1:17:05 Speaker 4 Ah.

1:17:05 Speaker 3 Yeah, but that's, look, we're the fir- the Rebbe made this, what, broadcast from-

1:17:09 Speaker 4 It's a-

1:17:09 Speaker 3 ... nobody thought about it

1:17:10 Speaker 4 ... it's a interesting question to think about, yeah.

1:17:15 Speaker 3 You, you have to take it as, mm, we have to use every tool we can to bring people back home. Now, I just believe that the home we have is a very big home. You don't have to be in one small box.

1:17:28 Speaker 4 Right.

1:17:28 Speaker 3 You have to be, you know, is a very big room.

1:17:31 Speaker 4 Right.

1:17:31 Speaker 3 As you, as, as, as somebody here mentioned experience that we come to Jerusalem and you realize it's not only about the small segment of the population.

1:17:39 Speaker 4 I said that.

1:17:39 Speaker 3 Yeah, I know. That person. Um, and I'm saying, but that's exactly the point. The first time when my, when my father actually told me to, when, after I got married, my father actually wanted to be outside, said, "You have to see the Jewish people. You have to see the way they actually are." It's not only about the 10 Orthodox people in the community-

1:17:58 Speaker 4 Right

1:17:58 Speaker 3 ... or the two or the zero. It's much more than that. Judaism is much more diverse than that, and I think what that's Rebbe, when Rebbe send people outside, that's what he meant, that you, yes, you bring in that. Obviously you're being exposed to things. Near ‹foreign», you're going to ‹schlichas in, in, in, you're going to ‹Mitvahs in Manhattan, not everything you see is Torah ‹Sakrosh».

1:18:18 Speaker 4 Right.

1:18:19 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe didn't care.

1:18:20 Speaker 4 Right. Right, he cared. He felt that they could, they, they could, they could, uh-

1:18:24 Speaker 3 Bring light to the world.

1:18:25 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:18:26 Speaker 3 Right, and he said, "I, I will take the, the chances."

1:18:29 Speaker 4 Right.

1:18:29 Speaker 3 'Cause if you really do good and you care about what you do, yeah, that's what it is. A person like myself, get instruction of the Rebbe to do a, to really to continue my life from a ‹fatso and ‹Limud Torah. I take it seriously. Now-

1:18:45 Speaker 4 Right

1:18:45 Speaker 3 ... the Rebbe give it, Rebbe give it to a promises to a child who has cancer, right? Any hope will be good, but you take it seriously. You have an impact. You start taking the thing, and I think the Rebbe gave all of us a lot of instructions. You have to find what fits you. Some person for them, doing ‹Mitvah every single morning, going to put tefillin on people, that is the light of the nation. Some people is about doing political work.

1:19:12 Speaker 4 Right.

1:19:12 Speaker 3 And you have to find the right way, what's the right tool. I've, again, I'm 100 per- I, that's my belief. The Rebbe did not, Rebbe had the conversation about the public, and the whole, and the, and everybody, and everybody should do A, B, C, D. You know, but some people never learn ‹Chitas. Some people never learn Rambam.

1:19:31 Speaker 4 Right.

1:19:32 Speaker 3 Rebbe want everybody to do so, but Rebbe understood that not everybody fits to that.

1:19:36 Speaker 4 Right.

1:19:37 Speaker 3 You know, I do whatever I can to make everything accessible and available, so, you know, I'm, what I promised my father to finish all his sets, ‹Morah, Mishnah, Tanakh, Rambam, and Tanya do it both in Hebrew and English, which thank God we're getting close now to finish the Mishnah and Rambam. Even that, you know, I made a decision in the Rambam that we'll have the Rebbe comments on the Rambam in our Rambam. In my father commentary, we'll add the Rebbe notes. It was the first book we ever did this, 'cause I think the Rebbe wanted people to learn that.

1:20:06 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:20:07 Speaker 3 And even that is, if you take that perspective, I'm sorry I'm going on a tangent here, but it's in my mind.

1:20:12 Speaker 4 You have to talk to the microphone, though.

1:20:13 Speaker 3 Sorry. It, it, it's very clear to me that the Rebbe specifically used Rambam and not Talmud.

1:20:20 Speaker 4 Why?

1:20:20 Speaker 3 'Cause it's a great perspective on victory. You have success every three weeks. You finish another book, another book, another book. Talmud, you learn some time, and you, like, you spend a half a year learning one tractate, and there's nothing. And the fact you don't remember anything, but that's a small detail.

1:20:36 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:20:37 Speaker 3 And I think the Rebbe vision of it is unbelievable. He basically, the Rebbe circumvent the business, said you would tell me you're learning Daf Yomi every day, which is very important obviously, but hey, how much you remember? How much you hold?

1:20:51 Speaker 4 Right.

1:20:52 Speaker 3 Rambam, 15 minutes, and it's Hebrew now. Soon it will be good English, but it's very clear.

1:20:59 Speaker 4 Right.

1:20:59 Speaker 3 You have a success constantly, and that again, back to the physical concept He wants you to feel good.

1:21:05 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:06 Speaker 3 You finish now, people now learning Daf Yomi, Maseches Zevachim, is a hard tractate, and it's not really as edited as other, other tractates. So you went to, you go to Daf Yomi every day for between 80 days or 90 days, what do you remember from it? Rebbe wants Rambam. It's easy, it's accessible, it's available.

1:21:23 Speaker 4 Yeah, everybody who has in the Rambam.

1:21:26 Speaker 3 Still, how long it takes?

1:21:28 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:29 Speaker 3 And, and you remember it, and it's this small. In the end of the day, it's one book.

1:21:33 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:34 Speaker 3 You know, and you, weekly you have another victory because you finish Mishnah, you finish this and that. It, it's this concept that the Rebbe looked at it, looked at 40 years ago. So I think that there's a perspective here, the Rebbe was really smarter than most people, not all.

1:21:50 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:21:51 Speaker 3 And he played the game well. Played the game well. And I think that there's a part when... Remember when we had a conversation internally here about if to do, uh, a website-

1:22:02 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

1:22:02 Speaker 3 ... and a portal. That was the good old days in the, the early 2010s, and people thought, "Oh, we're still gonna buy books, and it's very important. You know, your security, or, you know, people are gonna copy it." And I, in retrospect, really? Somebody gonna take my Talmud and print a book in his home, all 900 pages, really? Go and tractate them. That's one by the whole set.

1:22:22 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:23 Speaker 3 Obviously not. You make it available and, and accessible. You know, we, we, we made, uh, our app. We, we made, I think, 12 different cycles of learning, so you can choose whatever you want that's available.

1:22:35 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:35 Speaker 3 You don't have excuse. That's what Rebbe wanted. Rebbe took the very practical initiative, not only spiritual, back to the same concept. You know, it, it's a int- interesting perspective in, in taking that view. Very practical, very do things, and not, not just deal with the spirituality of it.

1:22:56 Speaker 4 The, the, the projects should be, should be with a lot of hatzlacha.

1:22:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:22:59 Speaker 4 When's it coming out?

1:23:00 Speaker 3 The?

1:23:01 Speaker 4 The Rambam in English.

1:23:02 Speaker 3 So the first volume of the Rambam is just went to print now. It's after Mada Ha'avoda.

1:23:06 Speaker 4 Uh-huh.

1:23:07 Speaker 3 It's a nice book. It's gonna be out. And immediately as we speak now, I think next two weeks, Zmanim will go to print.

1:23:14 Speaker 4 Oh, wow.

1:23:15 Speaker 3 We schedule to finish the entire thing by 2020, it's the end of 2027, in two years.

1:23:20 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:23:20 Speaker 3 Finish the entire set. So you have a set of eight volumes of the Rambam. And we hopefully also to have it in soft cover-

1:23:26 Speaker 4 Hmm

1:23:26 Speaker 3 ... so people can buy a booklet instead of the entire book and walk around with it. And similar in the same time, we also do the Mishnah in English.

1:23:33 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:23:33 Speaker 3 It'll be a bit bigger. Yeah, it's all going, and I'm, I'm very, very happy. My partners in Koren, actually, they're good. They're good.

1:23:41 Speaker 4 Should be with a lot of hatzlacha.

1:23:43 Speaker 3 The best we can.

1:23:43 Speaker 4 And, uh, thank you very much for making the time.

1:23:46 Speaker 3 Sure.