Ep. 76 // "The Mystery of Emunah" w/ Rabbi Yitzchok Kaufmann

00:00 Speaker 1 'Cause the Rebbe explained so much to us, we feel entitled to understand how all the metaphysics of things works together. But there's a concept called "" which means the HaShem has an individual relationship with each of us. We don't know what that person's life is supposed to do with the HaShem, and, and what the HaShem wants out of the person, and why the HaShem makes it for some people it's easier to be in touch with these certain parts of themself, for some people it's harder. And I think that should lead us to a lot of, you know, frankly, humility. If we take seriously this idea that we're individuals, and we have our own-- we're subjects in our own right, and the HaShem has a unique relationship with each of us, and which parts of our Nefesh Elokis or Nefesh Behamis or Nefesh Sichlis, our Guf plays a role at what point in time is how we contend with that. I think w-we have to, you know, realize that we're, we're, we're individuals, and you can't know why it's for this person, why not for that person.

00:51 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Hafetz, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I am here with Ari Skokofman of Maayanot in Yerushalayim, Yer HaKodesh. Um, it's hard to believe I'm in Yerushalayim. Just got here from, uh, Tel Aviv, and, uh, just got there from America, so I'm a bit disoriented. Maybe that'll be a good thing, maybe it'll be a bad, be a bad thing. We'll see where, where we, where it takes us.

01:30 Speaker 1 We'll make good use of it.

01:31 Speaker 2 We'll make good use of my disorientation. All right, uh, anyway, uh, many have asked for me to sit and have you on the con- on the podcast. I'm very glad you, uh, agreed and made yourself available. Um, it's late at night, but thank you for your time.

01:46 Speaker 1 Pleasure.

01:46 Speaker 2 And, uh, uh, before we proceed, um, for all those who listen and appreciate the podcast, please like and subscribe on the various platforms. And for those who really like the podcast and would like to make it stronger and better, please contribute to the podcast at hflpodcast.com/donate. Anyway, Rabbi Kaufman, um, I didn't say what you do. You teach in Maayanot.

02:12 Speaker 1 I teach in Maayanot.

02:12 Speaker 2 Of Maayanot. We'll hear more about that. Why don't you... Uh, the truth is, I don't know much about you at all. A few people that I respect told me I should have you on, so I asked you to come on. Tell me a little bit about where you come from. Tell us where you come from.

02:24 Speaker 1 Um, I grew up in mostly in Minnesota. I'm, uh, one of three, three children. My-- the oldest. I had a, say, turbulent childhood.

02:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

02:37 Speaker 1 And through a lot of interesting turns, I ended up, uh, Baruch Hashem, teaching in Maayanot, teaching other places, raising a family, Baruch Hashem.

02:47 Speaker 2 All right. It seems like you're skipping over a lot over there.

02:49 Speaker 1 There is a lot

02:50 Speaker 2 So that, so that's my job. Um, we don't have to go into the turbulent childhood if that-- if you want to skip that chapter.

02:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

02:57 Speaker 2 Uh, you had a turbulent childhood, and that was a, uh, that you, the-- you grew up in a, in a, in a home that would have led you to Lubavitch Yeshiva?

03:07 Speaker 1 M-my parents were Baalei Tshuvah.

03:08 Speaker 2 Okay. Lubavitch Baalei Tshuvah?

03:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, Lubavitch Baalei Tshuvah. I was born with the bracha of the Rebbe.

03:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

03:13 Speaker 1 Um, because of turbulent childhood, my parents got divorced. Uh, I ended up spending most of my childhood in public school.

03:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:20 Speaker 1 Um, and at a certain point, I guess a, a good starting point is that, uh, after a year of university, so my father asked me if, uh, what I was doing for the summer. Said, "I don't know. I don't have any plans." He said, "Why don't you go to yeshiva?" I said, "It sounds like a good thing." Um, I'd been frum throughout being in public school. And, uh, so he said, "Where do you wanna go?" I said, "I don't know. Different options." And, um, so I went to yeshiva for the summer. Maayanot, actually.

03:53 Speaker 2 So your father was trying to get you back into the yeshiva?

03:56 Speaker 1 Not really try and get me back into the yeshiva. My father is a little more sekhl than that. My father is, you know, yeah.

04:02 Speaker 2 He was hoping that you'd go back to yeshiva?

04:04 Speaker 1 No.

04:04 Speaker 2 Why, why did he bring it up?

04:05 Speaker 1 'Cause a Yid should learn Torah. If you have the summer off, why not learn Torah?

04:08 Speaker 2 Ah, just, just a summer thing.

04:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. My, m-m... I mean, one of the things I was raised with very much from, from my father is that being a Yid is something much more fundamental than, you know, going to the yeshiva or being in a particular institution.

04:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:26 Speaker 1 Um, that there's something core.

04:28 Speaker 2 But what had been your-- up to that point, you had-

04:30 Speaker 1 I was in university studying physics and math.

04:32 Speaker 2 But you had been, you had been in public school, you said.

04:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:34 Speaker 2 You had learned Torah before?

04:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, I learned with my father. I learned, learned with other people. It was Shiur on Shabbos.

04:38 Speaker 2 All right. So you, so you, you, you, you, you were not starting from scratch, per se.

04:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. No. I mean, yeah. I mean, there was a, you know, good am ha'aretz 'cause, like, how much do you know if you're learning in your spare time when you're in the mood with your father, whatever? But yeah, it wasn't-

04:49 Speaker 2 So you were, you were reading Hebrew. You, you were-

04:52 Speaker 1 Reading, translating was a little difficult, you know.

04:54 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

04:54 Speaker 1 Gemara was, uh, was, you know, without someone helping me was hard.

04:57 Speaker 2 So not from zero, but close to zero.

04:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. But in terms of Yiddish, I was very well informed. I read a lot and stuff.

05:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. And so you went to yeshiva that summer?

05:06 Speaker 1 Went to yeshiva that summer. I went to Maayanot.

05:09 Speaker 2 Oh, so you went here?

05:09 Speaker 1 I went here.

05:10 Speaker 2 Here back when it was-

05:11 Speaker 1 Back when it was over there.

05:12 Speaker 2 By Yellen?

05:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:13 Speaker 2 They were already in Yellen then?

05:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:15 Speaker 2 I didn't realize they were there that long.

05:16 Speaker 1 A long time ago. So, um, to make a long story short, I hated it.

05:21 Speaker 2 You hated it?

05:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:22 Speaker 2 You hated the yeshiva or you hated the learning?

05:24 Speaker 1 No, the yeshiva.

05:25 Speaker 2 The learning you liked?

05:26 Speaker 1 The learning I liked. The yeshiva-

05:27 Speaker 2 You didn't like... By, by yeshiva, you mean the, the, the Lubavitch thing?

05:31 Speaker 1 No, no, no. The frumkeit. The-

05:32 Speaker 2 The Seder?

05:33 Speaker 1 No, Maayanot is too, is too open to... It, it wasn't for me.

05:39 Speaker 2 You wanted more-

05:40 Speaker 1 I, I always had this, like, the... I know what truth is. I know what the real is. If I'm coming for real, I want something-

05:45 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm either in or out.

05:47 Speaker 1 It do- You know, Baruch b'tkhtanu. The, tell me how it is. Don't, uh, don't tell me, "Oh, it's free to explore," and this. It wasn't, it wasn't for me. I, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a very good thing. Many people need that. But for me, that's what was what I needed.

05:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

05:59 Speaker 1 So whatever. So I would stay for the summer or whatever, and, uh, I went, I went back to university, and, um-

06:05 Speaker 2 And you were studying what?

06:06 Speaker 1 Physics, math.

06:07 Speaker 2 You wanted to be what?

06:08 Speaker 1 Physicist, mathematician.

06:10 Speaker 2 So you're an abstract thinker.

06:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, I got, I, I got... became disillusioned with that as a life path.

06:20 Speaker 2 Well, it's not gonna make you any money, that's for sure.

06:22 Speaker 1 That was not the issue. Um, and-

06:25 Speaker 2 What... so what was the issue?

06:27 Speaker 1 So when I was in university, they had a, uh, a sign up in the, the dormitory.

06:33 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:33 Speaker 1 The honors physic- the honors physics dorm.

06:35 Speaker 2 Where was this?

06:36 Speaker 1 At University of Minnesota.

06:37 Speaker 2 Of Minnesota, okay.

06:38 Speaker 1 And the sign said, "I came here to study art."

06:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

06:43 Speaker 1 "But art is really psychology. Psychology is really biology. Biology is really chemistry. Chemistry is really physics. Physics is really math, and I hate math."

06:56 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's the saddest thing I've heard in a long time.

06:58 Speaker 1 So when I was a teenager, I, I actually had, I, you know, that, that was, I guess, my current, you know, mental model of reality is that Torah and mitzvahs are true, the Aibishter is real, you know, Ma'amad Har Sinai happened, you know, all this stuff is real and, and, and, and b'ly shom sofek, and that's something very core. But that kind of, uh, materialist, reductionist and, and seeing physics and math as kind of a window into ultimate truth was something I, I really got caught up in as a teenager, and values-

07:25 Speaker 2 Oh, so you, oh, so you liked that sign?

07:27 Speaker 1 I liked that sign until I realized that... until at some point I realized it was a sheker.

07:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:31 Speaker 1 And at some point it just didn't, it didn't... And maybe that had to do with becoming teshuva, maybe had to do with maturity, I don't know. You ne- you never really know why, but at some point it just seemed like what I, what I came here to find, I will never find.

07:42 Speaker 2 Well, I think we, it's worth exploring a, a line that you just said. You, you were in school, in public school your life. You, you dabbled on the sides a little bit of Torah, and yet you were convinced that Ma'amad Har Sinai was real.

07:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, so explain that.

07:54 Speaker 1 That I can't explain. The, the part of, uh-

07:56 Speaker 2 I mean, or at least, at least, at least explain how, like, like, like how r- how, how insane that is.

08:03 Speaker 1 No, that I know is insane, but, um, you know, Chassidus speaks about emunah.

08:07 Speaker 2 Right.

08:07 Speaker 1 And, uh, emunah is something that is real-

08:10 Speaker 2 Because what are we doing in yeshiva otherwise? What are we doing in cheder otherwise, keeping kids in school for 10 years if you got it without going to school?

08:17 Speaker 1 So, I mean, there were other people-

08:18 Speaker 2 This is what I'm asking

08:19 Speaker 1 ... there were other people from, from families who ended up in public school that I know and, um, I would say I'm the only one that made it out that way.

08:27 Speaker 2 No, but I understand in your case, obviously it's anecdote, but, but what, what, how do you read the idea that, that your, your, um, your faith didn't track at all with your learning?

08:40 Speaker 1 I think, you know, sometimes when you, when you, when you read something, you know that it's true because it, it perfectly conforms to your experience of life.

08:54 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:55 Speaker 1 And when Chassidus speaks about emunah, and emunah not being, uh, I believe this or I don't believe this. It's almost it's a, the, the... there's a, there's a, what's it? Elokut Pepshit. There's an, there's a, there's a absoluteness that this is true, that it doesn't even need, it doesn't need a justification for myself.

09:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:13 Speaker 1 And nothing can shake that. Nothing can make me question that. The only question I can have is what does it mean, right? That just always was true to me.

09:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

09:23 Speaker 1 Always was, and I don't know why. It's, uh, I, I think the Aibishter, I'd like to say every day, but it's relatively frequently because I think it's a gift. I don't think everybody has that, but I think that's... I've had questions. I've read a lot of kefira, and it never... it's always like, "Oh, that's interesting. That, that creates an interesting question. So what does Torah really mean then? What, what does the Aibishter really want then?" It was never how do I know? How can I be certain?

09:47 Speaker 2 Right.

09:48 Speaker 1 Um, and never feeling very... I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a ha'arah in Rebbe, Ma'amad HaRebbe in . Where the Rebbe says that the more emunah a person has, the less they're afraid to look into things.

09:59 Speaker 2 Less they're afraid to look into-

10:00 Speaker 1 Look into things because on the contrary, if you get-

10:02 Speaker 2 What are the words that the Rebbe uses? Do you remember?

10:05 Speaker 1 Uh, the exact quote, um-

10:07 Speaker 2 He, uh, no, no, I'm just- Huh.

10:11 Speaker 1 Something along those lines. It's a quote from the Aribishab. It's a ha'arah. I think it's ha'arah 33.

10:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

10:17 Speaker 1 Not that I know all ha'arahs by heart, but that's a favorite ha'arah of mine.

10:19 Speaker 2 But there's, this, when you quote it a lot, that's-

10:20 Speaker 1 It, it speaks, it speaks to me. It, it, it-

10:23 Speaker 2 You have no fear.

10:24 Speaker 1 I, I, no fear. I've never, I've never, I've never read something or heard something that made me, shook me up as to the foundations of, of, of Yiddishkeit. It's only asked, made me think, "So then maybe I have a shallower understanding of Torah, maybe a shallower understanding of what the Aibishter wants out of us."

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12:03 Speaker 2 have some friends as well, of course, everybody today does. And, um, you know- Something that I've heard from them a number of times that I've begun to pay more attention to more recently is they've told me, like, "You have to understand, it's not like I don't want this to work for me. To the contrary, I, I would love for this to work for me. It'd make life so much easier. I, like, I'm in tension with my parents, I'm in tension with my fam- I'm in tension with my past. It pusht, doesn't work for me. It pusht doesn't work for me." Um, and like, like, in a way, it's just almost like, like, what you're describing is, like, it just worked for you.

12:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:45 Speaker 2 Is that really what the rabbi means by, by emunah? The-

12:48 Speaker 1 So, so the, in that main merkit, so in the differentiates very clearly between the effect of ratzo on a person's sechel and emunah on a person's sechel.

12:56 Speaker 2 Right.

12:57 Speaker 1 And how there's a, there's a something that you're after, that you need to be the case, that can exert the pressure on your sechel to try and get yourself to, to make sense of things in a certain way. And then there's a total different thing, which is almost... Passive is not the right word, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's softer. It's just... It, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't need to work out a particular way, 'cause of course it's gonna work out.

13:22 Speaker 2 Hmm.

13:23 Speaker 1 So say to yourself a big question, and then I'll find the answer, and then I'll have another question. I, I mean... And, and maybe I'll ask this of my father. I remember my father, um, would not... Every time I used to have questions, my father would say, "Okay, so let's try and find an answer. If you have an answer, great. If we don't, it's also fine. We'll try and find an..." You know? Um, but I, I, I think when a person is driven, they, they, they... I see this in other areas, not in areas of Yiddishkeit, in areas of, of, you know, other things, uh, relations with people. You want it to work out a certain way. It's really important to you that, that a certain vision of things materialize. And that creates a pressure and an urgency. And, and the experience of the way I understand what Chassidut is talking about emunah, and it's always resonated with me, is it's just not that. It's, it's just that there's, there's something which I can't doubt, even if I... It, it doesn't even make... Even using the word doubt with it doesn't even make sense. Like, I can't 'cause I'm not allowed to. It's like I, I don't even know what that would mean.

14:23 Speaker 2 But the problem that I, that I, that I, that I see is that it becomes, in a way, a tautology. Like, those who have it, have it, and those who don't have it, have it.

14:30 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah.

14:30 Speaker 2 So, but so what, what, what Chassidut is doing, is it saying that some people are born with it and some people are born without it?

14:35 Speaker 1 I think that's-

14:36 Speaker 2 How, how do we, how do we account for the people who it doesn't work for?

14:38 Speaker 1 Well, I think, if I'm gonna be very honest, that, um, I, I, I believe that every- everything true has a klipa to it. And one of the klipas of Lubavitch is that we, because the Rebbe explained so much to us, we feel entitled to understand how all the metaphysics of things works together. But there's a concept called tzaddik hahashkachah, which means the Aiblisht has an individual relationship with each of us. And we know certain basic things. We know that, um, as a general rule, that, you know, yayin nesach is, creates a certain timtum ha'mayach v'eiv. We know that, we know that, uh, Torah and mitzvahs helps make a person sensitive to their neshamah. But once we move beyond those generalities, we don't know what that person's life is supposed to do with the Aiblisht, and, and what the Aiblisht wants out of the person, and why the Aiblisht makes it for some people, it's easier to be in touch with these certain parts of themself, for some people, it's harder.

15:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:28 Speaker 1 And I think that should lead us to a lot of, you know, frankly, humility. So, you know, I mean, it's not like, "Oh, this is a system, and this is how it works out." It's like, no. So this is descri- has described something that I, I, I, I see reflected, and that doesn't provide, you know, it's not a philosophical position. I can't argue that. I mean, you can get engage in philosophy. I love philosophy. It's, like, probably my favorite pastime. Um, but I, I, I don't think that, that, that you, that, that if we take seriously this idea that we're individuals, and we have our own, we're subjects in our own right, and the Aiblisht has a unique relationship with each of us, and which parts of our nefesh elokis, or nefesh behamis, or nefesh sichlis, our guf, plays a role at what point in time and how we contend with that, I think w- we have to, you know, realize that we're, we're, we're individuals, and you can't know why it's for this person, why not for that person.

16:16 Speaker 2 Right.

16:18 Speaker 1 Um, which is why I don't usually go up to people and say, like, you know, "I know this is true, so therefore you have to, like, agree with me." It's not like... I don't, I don't think that transfers over like that.

16:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, I mean, you work at Mayanot. I'm sure in many ways you're, you're, you're literally at that... You're, you're, like, at a ver- at a place where those differences are very, very obvious.

16:40 Speaker 1 Yes and no. I mean, somebody usually doesn't go to Yerushalayim to learn in yeshiva unless they already have something that they feel for themself is drawing them there.

16:50 Speaker 2 No, but you're seeing how people, uh, you're seeing how people are, are in, like-

16:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, contending with things

16:56 Speaker 2 ... trans- transferring and moving from one place to another.

16:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

16:59 Speaker 2 It's-

16:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:59 Speaker 2 And, and people are doing their own kind of things here-

17:02 Speaker 1 Yeah

17:03 Speaker 2 ... relatively.

17:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:05 Speaker 2 To other yeshivas, the, like, the, the sy- there isn't much of a system.

17:09 Speaker 1 Um-

17:10 Speaker 2 There's, there's, there's-

17:11 Speaker 1 Yes and no. When it comes to, like, the, the learning and the limud Torah, there is really a system.

17:15 Speaker 2 But personality-wise?

17:16 Speaker 1 Personality-wise, no. There isn't, like, this, like, we're gonna now, you know, you're gonna come in, and we're gonna turn you into, like, you know, a card-carrying member Lubavitch.

17:24 Speaker 2 All right.

17:24 Speaker 1 And so, yeah, it doesn't have that style to it at all.

17:26 Speaker 2 All right. So s- so just to open up this idea, 'cause I, I think, I think it's a very important idea. You're basically... You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're laying out this idea of, of, of emunah being something that is available to some, or available to most, but not available to others. We don't know why or how. Where does that leave the person in terms of working on it?

17:54 Speaker 1 So, I mean, I think-

17:56 Speaker 2 If you feel like you're someone who wasn't, for whatever reason, gifted this, you know, it doesn't, you don't, you're the black sheep in your family.

18:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

18:03 Speaker 2 Everybody seems to take it easy, and you have it hard. You say, "Okay, like, God, God basically decided that it's not for me."

18:11 Speaker 1 I mean, I think that's where-

18:13 Speaker 2 And what does it-- what about the person who has it? Do they have to wor- Is, is it they're good?

18:16 Speaker 1 No. No. 'Cause I think... I mean, one of the, the things that I've found that, again, resonates very much in learning Chassidus is that Chassidus doesn't lay something out as a, "This is the path of how it, you know, you have-- or how it works, so this is what guarantees that you're set." Everything has costs, everything has opportunities, and there's a tremendous amount of, of personal autonomy, you know. The, to use like a very cliché analogy, right? If someone's going through a difficult time in life, um, when do you give up and when do you keep going? And if we'll be honest, there aren't, like, objective criteria that we can use to make that determination. At some point, the person has to make decisions and bear the consequences of those things, and a person can spend their whole life looking for Emunah. There's a famous story of Isaac Komler. Isaac Komler, you know, who's a great student of the Alter Rebbe, great student of the Mitteler Rebbe, and he wrote, "Tzetel after Tzetel," he writes that, that Achdus Hashem should be Munach by him. He just felt he, he... As much as he didn't, he didn't really get it. Whatever that means. I'm, I'm not him. And he begged the Tzemach Tzedek, and at one point, the Tzemach Tzedek finally agreed and took him into Yechidus and said, "Amaimer." And he says, uh, "An arrow went through my heart and I, I, I would've run into the street, but I had a reason not to."

19:31 Speaker 1 Uh, this Isaac Komler was, was, was, was, was decades by, by the Alter Rebbe and by the Mitteler Rebbe, and it wasn't until this later years of the Tzemach Tzedek, something in his experience of what, what it means to be connected to the Abraham, what Achdus Hashem means. So I think a person, you know... And sometimes people, they make, uh, decisions and they come back and revisit them later, sometimes years later. I, I, I think that believing... You know, just, you know, going back to this Parsha, right? The Lech Lecha, Meretzva. Going back to the thing that the Abraham comes to a person and says, "I'm calling out to you. I'm not calling out to generic humanity. I'm not calling out to generic whatever." And nobody, nobody gets the script beforehand.

20:10 Speaker 2 Oh, very interesting.

20:11 Speaker 1 You have your experience and, and Chassidus does sa- sh-shed some light and it, and it gives you the contours of things and it gives you language and it... But even with that, what does it mean, you know? What, what does, what, wha- what does a parek tanya mean teaching at 40 and teaching it at 22? It doesn't mean the same thing.

20:27 Speaker 2 No, not at all.

20:28 Speaker 1 So like, I'm... I, you know, I, I joke with the Bochurim, I say, "Something I'm teaching you is wrong, you just don't know which parts yet."

20:35 Speaker 2 Right.

20:35 Speaker 1 When I find out, though, I'll, I'll hopefully correct.

20:38 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. Uh, you, you bring up Lech Lecha and, um, uh, Le- Lech Lecha and Terah. I just r- I was learning it the other day. Um, and, uh, the Alter, the Alter Rebbe talks about how the Terah starts with Avraham Avinu at seventy-five years old, even though he lived a very... Uh, uh, you could say, uh, Emunah dikka life. I mean, he's the, he's the father of Emunah-

21:04 Speaker 1 Right

21:05 Speaker 2 ...that started before, but it was only Lech Lecha because i-i- one of the things that Alter Rebbe explains is that Avraham Avinu for seventy-five years was working on, on internalizing what ha- he had in his machen into his middes, and that's why he had to leave from Charan, which is a place where... And so, in a way, it's something of what you're talking about here, that, that Avraham Avinu had to toil for seventy-five years in anonymity.

21:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:31 Speaker 2 Right? The, the... There was no, there was no gushpankah of Terah on his seventy-five years of work, right? And it was only by Lech Lecha that, that, like, he, he finally got that dagger, you said, or the arrow in the heart. And so-- And, and the, and, and the Ribash tells him, "Okay, now I, I'm giving you a script," or, "Now I'm giving you something that makes it." We have to work on it. A- and like the Alter Rebbe explains that, that light also what the, the Lech Lecha, but he didn't do the work before, so what happened to him? Right? So i-i-i- it's, uh, it's... You know, uh, I'm su- I'm sure you know more about this field than I do, but in many ways, the criticism of Judaism by other religions, Lehavdil, has been that we're too focused on the deeds. Like, and we're not enough on the, on the feelings and the fa- and the Emunah, right? And in a way, what you're talking about is because the deeds you can control, and you have to... You can, you can work... You, you can work until you get there, even if you don't have that f- that feeling of it ma- of it working, you could technically-

22:39 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't know that, that.

22:40 Speaker 2 No?

22:40 Speaker 1 I think... No. I think that, that, that differentiation between Emunah and the, the deeds is a... I, I think it's an artificial one.

22:48 Speaker 2 Uh, 'cause if you don't have Emunah, why would you believe in the mitzvahs?

22:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's something, I think, I mean, very profound about pausing and realizing what you're doing. You're, you're, you're spending, you know, whatever it is, a few hundred dollars for a fancy lemon and you're waiting around. That's what you're doing. Right. So like, on some level, you have to be okay with the fact that you're doing that.

23:18 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:18 Speaker 1 Right?

23:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:20 Speaker 1 So I think-

23:21 Speaker 2 Or you have to, or you have to be able to pay a credit card. I mean...

23:23 Speaker 1 No, but I'm saying you, you, you, you're holding it, right? Then you're waiting-

23:26 Speaker 2 Right

23:26 Speaker 1 ...around and, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, uh-

23:28 Speaker 2 I mean, that's a mitzvah that actually I understand why people do it. It's easy to swipe g- g- g- g- this on a credit card, but I, I get their point.

23:34 Speaker 1 No, but, uh, if you stop and reflect a little bit about, like-

23:38 Speaker 2 Did you see what Americans spend money on? I mean, I guess you live in Israel, people here are a little bit more conscientious.

23:42 Speaker 1 No, but, uh-

23:44 Speaker 2 I get what you're saying. Yeah. You're... You know.

23:48 Speaker 1 To, to put it, to put it, uh, slightly differently, yeah. The, um, the, the Bochum, when you, when, when Shabbatone, we had a problem with electricity, went to some place, I don't remember where it was, the north, and electricity kept going out right before Shabbos.

24:04 Speaker 2 Right.

24:04 Speaker 1 Too many, too many platas in the-

24:07 Speaker 2 Right.

24:07 Speaker 1 And so you're trying to figure out where's the short, where's the this, and, you know, the clock is ticking, right? And shkiya is coming. And I, I, I, I tell the rabbi, I, I tell the Bochum, I says, "You know, w- when we get to one minute before shkiya, whatever it is, is. We're not going past the one minute before shkiya." And there was just like... It's like a davar... It was like a davar aresh.

24:25 Speaker 2 Right.

24:25 Speaker 1 And so you just have a... There's no way that you can do that and not be okay with it on some level. So now what does that mean? You call that Emunah, you call that this. I, I-

24:37 Speaker 2 I seriously-

24:37 Speaker 1 But you can't, you can't-

24:40 Speaker 2 So then where does the person start if they don't have that f-- You said a person still can choose their way of life. What, what would be the basis to choose if you can't even start with mitzvot?

24:50 Speaker 1 You could choose the mitzvot.

24:51 Speaker 2 Why would you choose that if it's... Like, like the, the-

24:54 Speaker 1 The-

24:55 Speaker 2 The Rambam does talk about they were taking away from pare. If you're saying that someone-

25:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:00 Speaker 2 I mean, are, are you-

25:01 Speaker 1 No. What I, I mean-

25:02 Speaker 2 What, what's the, what's the foundation of starting if you feel like you're, like you're out of the picture?

25:06 Speaker 1 So I think, I think my personal s- sense of life is that you're never starting, in the sense that you, you're always, you're always in the middle of something. You were born. You, you, you, you literally start your life inside somebody else.

25:24 Speaker 2 Correct.

25:24 Speaker 1 Right? You come into the world with family. There is already reality. You already have social bonds. You come into a society with a culture, right? You want 𝚫ְבָרִים וְרֹחְנִיים, you have a נְשָׁמָה, you, you have experiences.

25:36 Speaker 2 You have a יְרֻשָּׁה, yeah.

25:37 Speaker 1 You, you, you're, you're already in the middle.

25:39 Speaker 2 Right.

25:40 Speaker 1 Like, uh, uh, the famous vort, right? We start from Daf Beis 'cause, you know, what's the first, the first question of the Gemara is, right? Uh, is it, uh, תַּעֲהֵי חֲקָי. Like, why, why are we so certain you have to even say Shema? Where are we coming from, right? The-

25:50 Speaker 2 Right.

25:50 Speaker 1 And I think, being honest, that we're never... There is a beginning of something.

25:55 Speaker 2 Mm.

25:55 Speaker 1 But y- a person himself is never at the beginning.

25:58 Speaker 2 Right.

25:59 Speaker 1 Maybe אָדָם רִאשׁוֹן. It's an interesting question. But beyond that-

26:02 Speaker 2 Well, uh-

26:02 Speaker 1 ... we're never really at the beginning.

26:04 Speaker 2 Well, look what happened to him.

26:05 Speaker 1 Right. So I, I, I think, uh, you know, probably over a decade now of being with friends and saying like, you know, the, the question is just what am I after and what am I before?

26:17 Speaker 2 Mm.

26:17 Speaker 1 And so maybe it's the beginning of that. And so, yeah, a person can say like, "Well, why should I do the mitzvah? Why should I learn this?" Or, "Why should I..." I- to have a conversation with a real person, you can say that. In the abstract, it's meaningless because, like, what, what's the context? Where's, who, what has that person experienced? How does that person see that choice that's in front of them?

26:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

26:38 Speaker 1 You know, we know general trends. We know, you know, Chazal say, אַחֲרֵי מַיְסֵי נְשָׁכַח מְלָבָיו is our actions dictate how we feel to a large extent. We know that the, the, you know, Chassidus teaches the power of מַיְסָה 100%. But, but a, a real person's in a real life situation, and it's the only... there's no way to, like-

26:54 Speaker 2 I, I understand

26:55 Speaker 1 ... trap that.

26:56 Speaker 2 I, I, I may be playing devil's advocate here. I don't think I am.

26:59 Speaker 1 Please.

26:59 Speaker 2 I know, but I don't think I am. But, but, but I, you know, I don't mind, I don't mind if I am, if that's what it, if that, if that's how it seems. You know, aren't you in some way trivializing emunah in the sense that we say מַאֲמִים בְּנֵי מַאֲמִים? Like, in some way, the whole foundation of מִפְתְּאוֹם or שְׂלִיחַς of reaching out to Yidden is every Yid גְּלֵיט.

27:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:22 Speaker 2 על יִדּן גְּלֵיטן, right? And every Yid has a פינטל יִדּן every-

27:26 Speaker 1 Right.

27:26 Speaker 2 And, and you're saying in a way, or correct me if I'm wrong, that emunah is just like a tool. Like, some people are-- most people are born with it.

27:34 Speaker 1 Oh, no, I wouldn't say it's a tool.

27:35 Speaker 2 So, okay, so, so, so, so, like, y- you're saying it's one way, it's one path to get to the end.

27:40 Speaker 1 No, no. I, I don't think it's one path.

27:42 Speaker 2 So, so what's, what, so-

27:43 Speaker 1 I think-

27:44 Speaker 2 What do those people that don't ha- So what is the emunah that... Th- that distinction that you make that some people are born with it, that it works for them, and some people it doesn't work for them, is that emunah per se or just-

27:54 Speaker 1 No. So I think, I think that's the question of your relationship with emunah, I think.

27:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Okay.

27:58 Speaker 1 I think emunah is, is, is, is fundamental.

28:01 Speaker 2 Oh, so, okay.

28:01 Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's, it's, it's so fundamental. That's why it's... That's why, you know, sechel's like a plaything when you, when you, when you sense emunah very strongly. It's like, you know, you can play Legos. You can move the ideas this way, you can move the ideas that way.

28:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

28:16 Speaker 1 It's, it's why ratzon has a certain, uh, it, it, it, it, it, it, it seems small in comparison. But we are conscious beings. We experience life, and the question is: How do I experience emunah? In what way do I experience emunah? How settled is my emunah, right? Chassidus speaks so much about this idea of emunah בְּפְנִים, emunah בְּסִיָשְׁבוֹס, whether those are the same thing or not is a discussion, you know? But, uh, you know, a, a חִצָּוֹנִיּוּ스 relationship with emunah, it's a superficial relationship with emunah. It's, um, you know... And, and that's where the individuality is. In other words, uh, to, to, to use, uh... Human beings, right? אָדָם is a מְדַבֵּר. He has a la- linguistic faculty, right? That, that's just inherent, but we all know that people have different r- relationships with language, and some people have a very difficult time with language.

29:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. I see.

29:07 Speaker 1 So it's a בְרָכָה when a person's articulate. It's a בְרָכָה when a person knows how to use language. But language is not a tool.

29:13 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

29:13 Speaker 1 Language just touches on something about what it is to be a human being.

29:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

29:16 Speaker 1 And emunah touches on what it is to be part of this relationship that the Aibishter started with Avraham and gives us as a יְרֻשָּׁה. And if a person has some sense of it, they should have... That's amazing, and the question is, well, what do you wanna do with that? How are you gonna deal with that? Are you gonna grow it? Are you going to rely on it? Are you intimidated by it?

29:37 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonnie Olim, Torah Umesorah, and Hatalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. If I can recap to make sure I understand you. W- y- I love the, I love the metaphor or the, or the analogy of language. Or, uh, um, everybody's... At least according to Torah and according to Chassidus, every Yid is born with, with emunah. Every Yid has a נְשָׁמָה, מַאֲמִים בְּנֵי מַאֲמִים. But some people are, some people are born with more immediate or, or obvious access to it, and some people are born with less. And, and those who are born with more, in a way, have a, have a leg up in the sense that things come to them easier, the same way that some people are born naturally- With, with a, a, a

31:09 Speaker 2 gift for writing or a gift for expressing themselves or any kind of gift, and some people are born with, with less of a gift. And so there's an advanta- there's an advantage r- where that it comes to you easier, things go smoother for you, you g- you excel at school. But the same way when it comes to language or to reading, people that are dyslexic are very often, in the long run, far more successful-

31:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:29 Speaker 2 ... 'cause they have to figure out a way to, to, to reorganize or to conne- right? To, to, to, to, to find that capacity.

31:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I think also-

31:37 Speaker 2 Something like that?

31:38 Speaker 1 I think so, but I would add that I don't know that I would, I would put in terms of easy because we have a, a... something that Yiddishkeit teaches us, that the Aibishter doesn't give something a person, th- give the person something they can't handle. They have... Which means if something comes easy to you or something is more readily available, that doesn't necessarily mean that things are easier. That just means that that's readily available to you. I mean, if I use myself as an example, right? I went to public school, I went to a little ... Would I have come through all... It was very turbulent and, and, and even the relationship with Yiddishkeit when you move beyond the, the fundamentals, you know, sh- you know, th- those are very, very difficult things. And so did the Emunah give me a, a sense of a, of, of a ground and a steady ground to, to, to, to, to walk on while dealing with all that? Sure. But does that make it easier? I don't know if that makes it easier. Um, you, you know, sometimes a person, you know, use language as an example, someone who may have a tremendous faculty of language, and they can use that to engage in self-deception.

32:50 Speaker 2 Right.

32:50 Speaker 1 And they can make their life more difficult, and the Aibishter says, "Look, your challenge is gonna be integrity, and so I'm gonna give you language."

32:55 Speaker 2 Ah, very-

32:55 Speaker 1 So it's not, it's not-

32:56 Speaker 2 Very interesting

32:57 Speaker 1 ... you don't know what the Aibishter is after. You have to live life and-

33:00 Speaker 2 I love it. Yeah, I love it. Uh, basically, when I, when I say easier, that's already a comparative word.

33:05 Speaker 1 Right.

33:06 Speaker 2 And so I'm buying into a structure of a system where in terms of making it through the yeshiva system, it's easier-

33:13 Speaker 1 I didn't-

33:13 Speaker 2 ... if it works

33:14 Speaker 1 ... I didn't go through the yeshiva system.

33:15 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying-

33:15 Speaker 1 Right, right

33:16 Speaker 2 ... that- that's what I'm saying when I say for that guy it's easier, like for the parents it's easier. The parents are not gonna have to worry about this kid, like, drifting away, right? But in terms of whatever this person's life story is, it might make it harder because he might, like you say, be completely self-deceptive. Like, he feels like he believes everything, and that's what he thinks, but in the meantime, his life is completely c- going off the rails, and he doesn't even realize it.

33:43 Speaker 1 There's a story-

33:44 Speaker 2 Very interesting

33:44 Speaker 1 ... uh, there's a story of the Alter Rebbe where the Alter... I don't remember the source, but, um, so the, the people who know the sources will correct us.

33:51 Speaker 2 Yes.

33:52 Speaker 1 But, um-

33:52 Speaker 2 They, they, they don't listen past the- ... past the trailer anyway. It's okay.

33:56 Speaker 1 So the Alter Rebbe, when he came to Mizrich, he was very bothered by something that had motivated him, which is that he... Torah came very easy to him, and we know that, uh, "Lo yegayti u'metsosi al taman," right?

34:11 Speaker 2 Right.

34:11 Speaker 1 It's like... And, uh, especially al p- pnimi Sefei Torah, right? That that which comes free is from Klipa.

34:16 Speaker 2 Right.

34:17 Speaker 1 So he's very concerned. This is not, not how it's supposed to work.

34:19 Speaker 2 Correct.

34:20 Speaker 1 And, um, he comes to the Maggid of Mizrich, and the Maggid tells him that his shlichus in life is to bring citizens to pnimus.

34:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:28 Speaker 1 Because that is so daunting, he was given Torah for free.

34:31 Speaker 2 Oh, wow. Okay.

34:32 Speaker 1 So I don't know. Does that make it easier? I, I, and am I... I think to a certain extent, that story is true of every person. Every person has a certain thing they're gonna have to contend with, and the Aibishter gives them other things that are gonna help them contend with that.

34:44 Speaker 2 Okay, so maybe this is going a little bit sideways. You tell me if I bechal I'm, I'm talking, if, if, if what I, if this assessment is correct. But on one hand, I love this kind of language because it, it... for whatever reason, talk about the way people are just not, like, I, I, it, uh, I, I always f- the second I found the language of existentialism, however much I bechal know about it, it always resonated with me, and there's something very existential about what you're saying, where basically all sy- forget about all the systems. Everybody has their own thing, and relative to their own thing, we don't know what's easier or harder, right? But on the other hand, it does s- the danger to me is that it does seem to, to make things very, like, uh, relativistic or, or just very, very, very, very vague and, and, and chaotic, where nobody knows anything. Everybody's all, like, in their own space, right? And so what's easier is harder, what's harder is easier. We don't have any measurements anymore for anything. Like, are, are you at all concerned that as true as what you're saying may be, I'm not even arguing about the veracity of it, that the conclusion that, like, where, where it leads, I'm talking more practically. Not ph- philosophically, it's fun, but practically, it just leads to a place where nobody knows anymore where the heck they are.

36:08 Speaker 1 So I mean, I-

36:10 Speaker 2 Is that bechal a fair question?

36:11 Speaker 1 I think it's a fair question, but I think it's because we've taken something out of context.

36:16 Speaker 2 Okay.

36:18 Speaker 1 I- if we're, we're, if we're talking about Yiddishkeit, at the end of the day, Yiddishkeit is not s- grounded in just the individual.

36:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:30 Speaker 1 It's grounded in, in family. It's grounded in history. It's grounded in community. It's grounded in, in so many different axes and dimensions. And so, you know, yes, if you take this one thing and you just, you know, me as a single human being with my own subjective experience, and what does Hashem want from me? Yeah. Okay. But I know from the, from what Yiddishkeit is, regardless of how you get into the specifics, that there's a promise that Hashem makes that the way he guided us and taught us how he wants us to live as a people and as a community At Har Sinai is something that, that, that has continuity.

37:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

37:15 Speaker 1 And so I need to, I need, I need to reconcile with that. I know that there's a notion of shalom. I need to reconcile with that.

37:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

37:22 Speaker 1 I know there's a notion that, that... We, we quote this all the time. We don't stop to think about it so much, which is a problem of a lot of things, right? That our, our children are guarantors. What does that mean, our children are guarantors? Whatever you're doing, if it can't live past you, that's, that's an issue. There's something off there.

37:38 Speaker 2 V'nihiyan acharitz atzeiinu.

37:39 Speaker 1 Right. So I think when you start embedding yourself back in the reality, it's not just your own subjective experience of things. That's one important element of a picture, and a person is, is honest with himself about it, which, which you have to choose to be honest with yourself. I don't think that that doesn't l- that doesn't allow for the kind of chaos you're describing. In other words, I'm not saying, "Oh, we celebrate the I don't know how to..." A-and even... It almost makes it silly 'cause it, 'cause if it's really my internal thing between me and the Aibishter , then, then the whole notion even comparing to someone else is also kind of a silly thing. Like, stop. A person who has decent shalom bayis doesn't sit around thinking, "Do I have better shalom bayis than my neighbor?"

38:17 Speaker 2 Right. No, no, that, that's a first sign that something's wrong with you.

38:19 Speaker 1 Right.

38:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

38:20 Speaker 1 So i-i-yes, it's true if I'm gonna sit and put on the philosopher's hat, we can have that discussion. But if I'm, if I'm living, if I'm living in relationship with, with, with, with the Aibishter, if there's a behart a'bachayim and I'm, you know, trying to... So then do I... D-does it matter if it's harder than someone else or it's easier than someone else? It's, it's, it's my thing. But my thing is I have wife and I have children, I have parents and I have community and I have a history, and I have a, I have a, I have a future. I have a future as a people which I know the rough outline but not the specifics.

38:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. I see.

38:49 Speaker 1 And I have to, and I have to, I have to make sure that I'm, I'm, I'm not, you know, rushing to one thing 'cause it's, it's simple for me to hold onto and then forgetting the rest of life-

38:58 Speaker 2 Yeah

38:58 Speaker 1 ... the rest of the reality. And I think that's the chacham of the Aibishter in giving us Torah and mitzvahs.

39:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, I, I understand what you're saying, or I, I, I see what you're saying. The, the, the... Like, to me, that's very much the idea of darkeich chassidis.

39:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:13 Speaker 2 Right? Like, a darkeich chassidis is... Like we were talking earlier, the story of Rav Manguel, that, you know, to give an elbow to someone out of havrayan. Um, darkeich chassidis ensures that you don't get caught up in your own head, right? A chassidis can become very quickly this, this, this... What, what's that-

39:31 Speaker 1 Let me tell you a funny story. One... The one, like, really positive thing, like really, really, really, really positive thing that happened to me on a Meir note. There was a rabbi who taught here.

39:39 Speaker 2 You're talking about that first summer?

39:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, first summer.

39:40 Speaker 2 That was the only time you learned here?

39:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, for six weeks.

39:43 Speaker 2 Until you came back to teach here?

39:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

39:46 Speaker 1 Which is a whole different story.

39:47 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:47 Speaker 1 So, um, there was a rabbi here named Rabbi Slavin.

39:50 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:52 Speaker 1 And, uh, he, he taught, uh, he taught sichas, he taught gersha, rezons gersha this year. And, um, he used to, he used to hit me f- quite regularly in shir.

40:04 Speaker 2 Hit you?

40:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, like, you know, pssh.

40:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

40:06 Speaker 1 Give a patch. Friendly.

40:08 Speaker 2 Friendly.

40:09 Speaker 1 Um, I, um... And I had long hair at one point.

40:13 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

40:13 Speaker 1 And so when I was there, I was l- I had long hair. And, um, I cut off the long hair but kept it and put it under the yarmulke to still look like I had the long hair, and he used to sometimes yank my hair. So one shir he yanks the hair, and the hair wasn't attached anymore, so he falls back off the chair.

40:28 Speaker 2 Oh, you cut off the ponytail-

40:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:29 Speaker 2 ... and like, and, and, and clipped it to your hair just-

40:31 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:31 Speaker 2 ... just, just-

40:32 Speaker 1 So it was all stuck under the yarmulke, so you couldn't... If I... I mean, if you looked closely, you could tell, but so he pulled it. There was nothing... There was no tension, so it... But, uh, those patches, that hair pulling, uh, probably did a lot more to, to give me a sense of what, you know, that, that the elbowing, the being a chassid than, than a lot of other stuff that I've experienced.

40:52 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there was a, you know, the... I... There's something about... What, what's that phrase?

40:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:57 Speaker 2 ... and like, on one hand it's like, come on, like, is it really, is it really that important for me to, you know, squeeze with people that stink and, like... And yeah, and the answer is kind of yeah.

41:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:09 Speaker 2 Like, it is important bec- Why? Because w- you can very quickly get caught up in your own brain, in your own mind-

41:17 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:17 Speaker 2 ... in your own reality.

41:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:19 Speaker 2 And the danger is that you, you, you end up mamash in a different space that's com- And what you're saying is, is that for all the truth that's out there of, of your own specific journey and whatever, there's something about you're back in the room with people. You're, you're, you're in this space. There's something about the physical congregation-

41:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:41 Speaker 2 ... the, the sweatiness of it that, that, that forces you back to reality. Don't get too carried away.

41:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:47 Speaker 2 But, but you also need-

41:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:49 Speaker 2 You do n-need your mind.

41:51 Speaker 1 100%.

41:51 Speaker 2 Otherwise, otherwise you... Otherwise it's just sweat. It's just-

41:53 Speaker 1 You become a sh... Otherwise you become a shell.

41:55 Speaker 2 Right.

41:55 Speaker 1 And I think, I mean, from listening to your podcast a lot, it sounds like a lot of people do go through the yeshiva system end up with feeling a bit like a shell, that there's a, there's a hollowness, there's an emptiness. I, I learned to manage on one level, but inside I'm missing something.

42:09 Speaker 2 Are you reading through what people are saying or people are saying that about themselves?

42:12 Speaker 1 It sounds like some people saying that about themself, that in their time in yeshiva was like, you know, I... Even if you... I managed how... I, I, you know, you, you learned how to do this, you learned how to do that. Not everybody. I'm not, I'm not one of these people that's like, "Oh, we have to criticize the yeshiva system." I, I think that's, you know, like, going back to what I was saying, that some people, you know, their issue is how do I... I'm very, you know, I'm in touch with myself, how do I, how do I live a normal life? And some people are really good at meeting everyone else's expectations, but don't know how to be in touch with myself. And some people are very good at using ideas, but are not very emotionally connected. I think everybody has their own-

42:43 Speaker 2 Right

42:43 Speaker 1 ... you know, thing, and so it's not like a criticism of one thing or the other. Um, but that's why we need to have those different, those different points. We need to-

42:52 Speaker 2 Right. I-is it... Like, to, to open, to, to, to reframe the conversation a little bit, but along these lines, which I find very, very important and interesting. Do you ever wonder if chassidus in general, the... if there's a risk of compared to, you know, more strict like learning Halakha or Gemara or whatever, that chassidus can take us to a space of endless- ... reflection, endless self-reflection, this kind of infinity pool

43:22 Speaker 1 I think that Chassidis doesn't have that risk. I think the absence of niglah, the absence of knowing Mefarshim Tanakh, I think the absence of knowing Midrashei Chazal, I think the absence of working on Shlom Bayis and raising your children does that. I don't... I know it's, it's like saying, "If I only, if I, if I, if I," Chassidis , "If I only eat oil." So what's the problem? I don't think the problem is the oil as much as the fact that you're not getting other nutrients.

43:55 Speaker 2 Right.

43:55 Speaker 1 And Chassidis, I don't think that the Rebbe, in fact, I'm, I'm, I'm quite sure the Rebbe never intended for Chassidis to substitute everything else. I, you know, the, there, there's so- the, the, the, you know, you know, a person needs bread, a person needs water, right? These things, a person needs many things, and Chassidis is not a substitute for the other things that a person needs. And when, when a person tries to get everything out of one thing, that, I think that fails. I mean, if you think about in relationships, and you try to get all of your social and human needs met out of one relationship, it's your marriage, if it's your best friend, it's gonna fail. No human being can be everything for you.

44:30 Speaker 2 Correct.

44:30 Speaker 1 And it's the same thing. No one facet of, of the Aibishter's Torah can be everything for you. That's why there are many facets. That's why, you know, the, these, um, there's a beautiful Midrash, um, I think it's Pirkei DeRabbi Elchanan, but I don't remember for sure, um, where I think Rabbi Elchanan says that when the Aibishter taught Yidden the Torah, when he taught them Midir-- and when he taught them Mikra, he had a very angry face, like a teacher of small children. 'Cause back in the day, you know, teachers of small children, they would threaten, they would hit. When he taught them Mishnah, he had a very... The Aibishter had a passive face. Uh, I don't remember the exact lashon, I think panim... I don't remember the exact lashon. When he taught them, um, Gemara, uh, then he had a shining face, panim iros. And when he taught them Agadata, it was a panim seichah face. A person needs discipline. A person needs play. A person, uh, uh... But you can't have all of one thing.

45:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:25 Speaker 1 And okay, we go back to thinking what's the right measures? Everybody's a unique individual. But I do think maybe there's some sort of a, of a danger that we immediately associate learning Torah, uh, to, to Dafka, you know, learning Maamar, and learning Sichas, and, and, and that's the only thing that there is. A-and it deprives us even of appreciation of Chassidis. Of dep- you know?

45:44 Speaker 2 Right.

45:44 Speaker 1 And so, yeah, a person needs to learn Gemara, and, you know, if they're a capable person needs to, to learn Halakha, a person should, you know... The, I mean, the Rebbe says, you know, Yanag Gil Moshiach starts with learning what do, what do the Nevi'im say about Moshiach, you know? I mean, th-I, I do think that's part of it. So I don't, I don't know if the Chassidis is the... Too much Chassidis is the problem. It's the absence of the other things that maybe is more of the problem.

46:04 Speaker 2 So, so let me, so let me flip it. What, what makes, in your mind, Chassidis unique or, or, or, uh, ir- um, irreplaceable? What makes Chassidis, like, critical to... What do, what do we get from Chassidis on this front that we don't get e-elsewhere?

46:23 Speaker 1 We get a discussion about what it means to be connected to the Aibishter without buying, having to buy into a, a specific filter, what that means. To, to give you... Explain to you what I mean. So if you have, like, a, a, if you If you study Hakira, there's certain suppositions we have to make about how things can make sense, what can't make sense, what's a valid explanation, what's not a valid explanation. If you study Kabbalah, there's a certain framing that you have to have for the whole discussion. Um, if you think about, as, as just an analogy, when you have relationships with people, there's a framing. You know, is, am, am I the person's teacher? Am I their father? Am I their husband? And that frames how you interact. Chassidis very much says, "The Aibishter is the Aibishter, and you are you, and all of these things are on the table. Let's," for lack of words, "let's, let's talk about that."

47:24 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:25 Speaker 1 And, you know, we wanna use the, the language we're familiar with, Etzem, but, but I think Rebbe sometimes says, "I am having a relationship with you," you being the Aibishter.

47:34 Speaker 2 Right.

47:34 Speaker 1 And, and, and everything's on the table. And, and, and, and so for instance, if you celebrate, like, the mystery and the uncertainty of it, like, that's a, that, that, that's a framing. If you say, "Oh, we have to know the truth. We know absolute," that's a framing. And so you find both things in Chassidis.

47:48 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:49 Speaker 1 Um, that's to me, you know, the, the w-what's unique about Chassidis, and that's to me what the, the Rebbe gets at in Kudsha Yesod Hatorah's Chassidis and, and why it's so connected to, to Moshiach and these things. Almost every idea, if a person is well-researched enough, you can... That you find in Chassidis, you can find kein that idea somewhere else also. It's not the idea. It's what are you doing with it?

48:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

48:11 Speaker 1 Are you trying to build a model of what Judaism is, or are you trying to be honest of what does it mean that a, a, a, a Yid, on all the levels of what it means to be Yid as individuals, a member of a family, as a member of communities, a member of history, all these things, right? As a, a spiritual being, as a physical being, stands in relationship with the Aibishter in an absolute way. What does that mean?

48:34 Speaker 2 So anti-framing.

48:35 Speaker 1 But not even anti-framing, 'cause, like, anti-framing is a framing. It's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like this, this, that. Like, that's not the issue. We're not- Yeah. It's like I'm not... I don't care. It's like it's not, it's not like I'm, I'm not caught up in the game. It's like-

48:49 Speaker 2 Right. Oh, okay. Okay. I see what you-

48:50 Speaker 1 It's like I'm, I, I-

48:51 Speaker 2 Okay

48:51 Speaker 1 ... I care more about the Aibishter than having the right language.

48:54 Speaker 2 Okay. So, so now my disorientation that we mentioned at the beginning is beginning to, uh, I don't know, play to advantage or disadvantage. It's certainly coming into play, uh, because what we're talking about here is inherently destabilizing and, and, and, and, and-

49:07 Speaker 1 If you abstract it, if you abstract it from real life and from Torah and mitzvahs

49:11 Speaker 2 ... No, but, but if you ta... Wait one second. You, you... The idea of, of a, a, a, a relationship with the Aibishter that doesn't have a frame, and, and you can't even say it's not... You can't even say it's the shliel of a frame because that too is a frame. You know, it... What is it then? Like-

49:29 Speaker 1 Oh. So, so-

49:30 Speaker 2 What, what is it? You know, and, and, and so it becomes almost like how do you, how do you enter into something... Uh, we were talking, your, your unusual friend, Shri Kilov. He, you know, he had a beautiful thread on X about, about, about giyur and Yiddishkeit compared to other... That by giyur and Yiddishkeit, like, you, you're only in by being in. You, you, you... There, there's no other way in.

49:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

49:55 Speaker 2 Right? There, there-

49:55 Speaker 1 Is there... There... He sent me the thread. Yeah.

49:57 Speaker 2 He sent it to you. He sent it to you. Like, there's, there's a, there's a-

50:01 Speaker 1 He wrote it all out and sent it.

50:02 Speaker 2 What's that?

50:02 Speaker 1 He wrote it all out and sent it to me, yes.

50:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. Is it... So, like, there's a, like, the, the, there's... The, we push the person away until they're in, and w- at that point they're in.

50:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think But I think the point that I'm making is that when a person gets... I love abstractions. It's my, like, natural, natural playground. It's, you know, uh... When a person doesn't know what they mean, they get lost.

50:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

50:31 Speaker 1 When you know that you're talking to someone, even if you don't have a full philosophical way of conceptualizing it, the man, the, the, you don't need a framing because I'm speaking to you. I, I, I-

50:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:43 Speaker 1 We just met. I... Okay. So the, there's a story that the Rebbe's favorite tefillah was Mei Dan.

50:49 Speaker 2 Right.

50:50 Speaker 1 Um, I don't know if I have a favorite tefillah, but one of the contenders is Elokai Neshamah.

50:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

50:56 Speaker 1 And the reason why I like Elokai Neshamah, aside from the fact that Chazal were matzlan, it's the first thing you're supposed to say when you wake up in the morning. The reason we don't do it that way, but, but-

51:03 Speaker 2 Well, it's also a kind of kein mei dani. It's a-

51:05 Speaker 1 It's a kein mei dani. But I l- I, it, it... The f- what I really like about the Elokai Neshamah is that it, it starts off with Elokai, and then there's a period. That orients the whole thing.

51:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

51:21 Speaker 1 My God. Like, I, I have a God, and now-

51:26 Speaker 2 Uh, interesting

51:26 Speaker 1 ... let's... So, so there's an anchor point.

51:28 Speaker 2 So you-

51:28 Speaker 1 But the anchor point is him and me.

51:29 Speaker 2 It's not Elokai Neshamah. It's-

51:31 Speaker 1 It's Elokai, period.

51:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

51:33 Speaker 1 Now I can start talking. The neshamah sh'zatu v'et-

51:35 Speaker 2 Neshamah sh'zatu v'i, right.

51:36 Speaker 1 That, you know, I know what it means to talk to my children at night. I know what it means to, to have a wife. I know what it means to speak to a student. I know what it means to have a friend.

51:43 Speaker 2 Right.

51:44 Speaker 1 Do I know what it means to have a God?

51:45 Speaker 2 Right.

51:46 Speaker 1 And now i-if, if I start making that entirely abstractions, okay, I'm gonna have a problem, but I have to go to have a chakras.

51:53 Speaker 2 Mm.

51:54 Speaker 1 But I have to keep kosher. But, uh, I have to mend the stevis because, because, because He's there with me. He's real. He's my... We, we, we're in this together, right? There's a Lech Lecha, right?

52:06 Speaker 2 There's a nice touch of, uh, uh, "Ani mesabed das, das nechinik."

52:09 Speaker 1 Right.

52:10 Speaker 2 That it's not, it, it, it's not... No, 'cause, uh, there are a lot of times where it's tayshes, like, here's this big, uh, I forget who said it, uh, big kroiker, big makubal. Who was it that said it?

52:19 Speaker 1 It's in, um... I think it's in... Why don't... I wanna say it's in The Truth of Sri Vaush, but, uh, uh, for some reason, I'm thinking that-

52:27 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right. Um, but one of the Roshinim says, you know, "Ani mesabed das nechinik," and like it's seen as, like, the godless of this person who's humble, you know? But what you're saying is, no, that's, that, that's, that i- i- in a way, that is the framing, but it's a framing that isn't the framing.

52:44 Speaker 1 Right.

52:44 Speaker 2 It, it, it's, it's real.

52:45 Speaker 1 It's not hefker. It's anchored in something that so that it, it doesn't need a box.

52:50 Speaker 2 My father's my, my father's my father is not a framing.

52:51 Speaker 1 Right.

52:52 Speaker 2 It's not a framing. It, it, it's a, it, it's a reality.

52:55 Speaker 1 Right.

52:55 Speaker 2 The more I try to frame it, the less I, the less I'm-

52:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

52:58 Speaker 2 ... the le- the less I'm describing it. That's a problem.

53:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:01 Speaker 2 Right?

53:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:03 Speaker 2 So, so it has to... It ha- It, it, and it maybe going back to your thing, consciously and unconsciously, Chassidus, like, i-in general, where, where does, where does Chassidus fit into, into... Uh, like a lot... There are times where Chassidus is seen as part of mikra or part of peshat in a way, right?

53:20 Speaker 1 Right.

53:21 Speaker 2 Because Chassidus can... Chassidus, the whole point is to kind of come back to the foundation and make sure that you don't disconnect from the foundation 'cause you could, you could get-

53:31 Speaker 1 Right

53:31 Speaker 2 ... caught up in the chakras.

53:31 Speaker 1 That, that's exactly... Yeah. I mean, I, I remember f- one time I was farbrengen with a bunch of Polish Chassidim who were getting into Chabad, and the whole farbrengen was Chassidus wants us, that when we read the pasuk, w-we take it kepshute.

53:45 Speaker 2 Right.

53:45 Speaker 1 Not childish, but kepshute. When it says, "B'reishit bara Elokim et shamayim va'etza," it means Taka, the Eibishter made the world. When it says, "Lech lecha," the Eibishter really does say, "Lech lecha." Uh, it... When, when the Eibishter... Like, but now I can relate to that on whatever level of person I am. So if I'm a more sophisticated, more sophi- less sophisticated, less physical, more emotional. Chassidus is, is, is the Rebbeim's way of reaching us in th- on that place and trying to guide us to that place.

54:14 Speaker 2 Right.

54:14 Speaker 1 Which is why Chassidus is not Kabbalah. It doesn't, it, it doesn't have a limitation. It's shayach to everybody 'cause, 'cause everybody can say Elokai. Everybody can say... You know, I was putting my, my, my, my five-year-old to sleep, and he asked me, "Why does the Eibishter make us, make it nighttime?"

54:32 Speaker 2 Right.

54:32 Speaker 1 "I have to go to sleep."

54:34 Speaker 2 Right.

54:34 Speaker 1 It's like, okay, I mean, if I, I know him well enough to like, "Well, let's see. Let me hear what you have to say. Tell me." So he says, w- with all the sincerity of a five-year-old, "Hashem just wants us to do time mitzvahs. But if we do time mitzvahs, then we'll be tired. So he made nighttime so we can go to sleep, so we can do more time mitzvahs."

54:54 Speaker 2 Uh.

54:55 Speaker 1 Now, I, I don't... Uh, the reason I'm giving the story is not because of what he said. Where do you... Where in his mind is he coming from that he has the question, he has the answer? That's not... So, so an adult can have that, a bubby can have that, a philosopher can have that, a mystic can have that. In Chassidus, everybody can have-

55:15 Speaker 2 Yeah

55:15 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and, and have that as an individual, and have it as a member of a family, and members of community, and members of part of an eternal people.

55:21 Speaker 2 Right.

55:21 Speaker 1 And, and okay, we have to figure out how to, how to do that.

55:25 Speaker 2 If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Basse LeGani, the first mimer, the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basse LeGani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basse LeGani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. In art, uh, however much I'm, I'm involved in what-- in, in the pretentious world of art, uh, but in a way, art isn't... That's part of the problem. It's not supposed to be pretentious. It's supposed to be real. But, you know, there's this idea that, like, to make something simple is actually the hardest thing, right?

56:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:44 Speaker 2 To, to, to, to, to get to the simplicity of it to where it's becomes obvious, like, obviously, like, "Who didn't-- How couldn't I think of this before?" It-- that's, that's the godless-

56:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

56:54 Speaker 2 I mean, it's very easy to be pretentious and be a, be a smug, you know, Foucault. You know, like, "Eh." I mean, you know, it's, it's easy to, to, to, to, to, to, to, um, to show off and to, and to, and to make things complicated. It's hard to make something that, uh, is resonant and, and strikes you on, on the most obvious, obvious level. My-Maizev the Shemtov, he has a st- uh, like, one of his, one of his, like, one of his favorite stories and things that people know him for, uh, didn't happen to him. It's something that he observed. He, he was a head counselor or director at that point in Gan Yisroel. Um, I think it's... When the Rebbe came to visit, um, that's one of the summers the Rebbe came to visit, and a little bit after, it was visiting day. And it was this-- those days, of course, most of the camp were not Lubavitch kids. And he overheard this child telling his parents about the Rebbe's visit. And I, I don't know that the father... He was listening to the conversation. I don't know if the father was antagonistic, but this father was curious. I mean, a little bit, like, cynical, whatever. "I don't know what, what the Rebbe-- what was so special? The Rebbe-- What did the Rebbe say?" And again, it, it's a little child that's talking. So what did the Rebbe pick-- What did this child pick up from the Rebbe? So the child says, "The

58:08 Speaker 2 Rebbe said the Mashiach's coming." And the father, "That, that's what impressed you? I, I told you that all the time. You've-- Everybody that you know has told you that the Mashiach's coming." So the ch-child answers the father, "Yeah, but he really means it."

58:22 Speaker 1 Right.

58:23 Speaker 2 Right? A-a-and, and, and Maizev li-liv-lives with this story, you know? Um, and, and, and there's something about that where... And in a way, that's the hardest part, at least in my experience, the hardest part of Chassidus is that after all the sophistication, it has to come back to simplicity. It has to strike like a, like a arrow in the heart, and it's hard.

58:50 Speaker 1 It is hard. A-and, and I think on that level, no matter who a person is and what gifts the Aibishter gives them, there is an element of that that's going to be hard because that's on a core level the Avoda, right? The Avoda is to, you know, say Heyem Yehe, right? The Emes itself is the Avoda.

59:10 Speaker 2 The Emes itself.

59:10 Speaker 1 There's a, there's a... The truth. Truth is simple.

59:13 Speaker 2 Right. It's right there in front of you.

59:15 Speaker 1 Right.

59:15 Speaker 2 There's nothing to d-- There's nothing to argue about.

59:17 Speaker 1 Right. But, um, you know, and, and I mean-

59:21 Speaker 2 So what are we doing here then? You're teaching in a yeshiva. What are we doing here? Are we, are-

59:24 Speaker 1 What, what-

59:25 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying are we engaged in semantics? So why don't we just-

59:28 Speaker 1 Because, because we're people.

59:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

59:29 Speaker 1 And people have to work through people, and people have emotions, and people have sekhel, and people have families. And the, the, the Torah and mitzvahs address us on all those different levels. It, it's so important that a person learn Torah because you do have a mind, and you do make constructs, and you do make sense of things. And if that's not in, at the very least, dialogue with the Aibishter, if not grounded in the Aibishter, then it's not gonna work. Now, is that enough? No. It needs to be davening. There needs to be, you know, assuming, BeEzrat Hashem, that's hap-- I have to, to build a family.

1:00:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:05 Speaker 1 Right?

1:00:06 Speaker 2 You have to have friends.

1:00:08 Speaker 1 Right.

1:00:10 Speaker 2 The-there is no simple solution because simplicity, simplicity is not a button.

1:00:15 Speaker 1 Right.

1:00:16 Speaker 2 It's like davening every day, right? The, the climax of davening, according to Halakha and even according to Chassidus, although it's, it's, it's less obvious in Chassidus from the way it's written about, is Shemoneh Esrei. You come into the Heichal HaMelech. The whole point of tefillah is to be mesakan in-

1:00:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:00:32 Speaker 2 ... before Hakadosh Baruch Hu, right? And to, and to be mevakshe shochov. That is the definition of tefillah. And yet the majority of davening and the majority of what Chassidus talks about davening, if you're gonna look at Pirkei Avos, is everything that leads up to it. Right? Pesukim-

1:00:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:45 Speaker 2 DeZimra, Birchas Kerishah, Kerishah. And, like, uh, in many ways, it's the same idea. The, the, the Nekuda, the, the, the, the, the Emes of t- the simplicity, the obvious part of tefillah is mevakshe shochov. But you're coming from your bed to, to talk in front of a king. You can say you're talking in front of a king. You can imagine it, but is it... Like, it, it's, it's obvious and also impossible at the same time.

1:01:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:11 Speaker 2 And so you have to spend as much time as you spend working your way to that kind of clarity.

1:01:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then you have to come back to... You know, I mean, one, one of the things of Chassidus... It's a question, why do we say, uh, Vidui right after Shemoneh Esrei?

1:01:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:28 Speaker 1 So one of, one of the explanations is that w- you say Vidui before death. It's when we say it for Kerishah Shalomita, right? 'Cause, you know, going to sleep, it's like passing away to some degree. And BeEzrat Hashem, a person does wake up in the morning. A person standing in front of the Aibishter, they're gonna leave.

1:01:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:01:50 Speaker 1 They're not staying there. They're going back into the world of Klipot and Sitra Achra, a world of, uh, you know, all sorts of things. And they're going there because the Aibishter has, uh, what that-- what he wants us to do there, right? The Shlichus.

1:02:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:03 Speaker 1 You're going th- You're going to the battle zone.

1:02:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:06 Speaker 1 Uh, a soldier who's going to the battle zone, you know, has to make peace with the fact that it may be a one-way ticket.

1:02:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:12 Speaker 1 And so there's a, there's a kind of a, a, a kind of a realization that- If I really stood in front of the Aibishter, and then I look back at going back into my life, whatever my life is, if it's internal things, it's external things, uh, there's a sense that I'm... Instead of facing the Aibishter face to face, I'm, I'm turning around, and he's behind me, and I'm, I'm carrying out something on his behalf, and I'm encountering something and, and I don't know how it's gonna work out, and I, I-- and we ask, you know, Tachnun, we ask that they should guide us and give us the, you know, the ability to handle it. So if we're... Just, just like the work-

1:02:47 Speaker 2 Are you saying the Pesukim of Le-davar lecha?

1:02:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:50 Speaker 2 Hadichah mamitacha?

1:02:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so the same, the same way there's a work of coming to be able to, to stand in front of the Aibishter and ask what you need and, and Baruch ata Hashem in a, in that kind of way. There's also the work of realizing you have to turn away from that and come back to whatever it is.

1:03:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:03:08 Speaker 1 And, you know, there, there's a Navoi, I think there's, it says that some of the Tzemach Tzedek was makpid to try to daven with a minyan from Shemoneh Esreh to the end. That part he felt he needed the Kohach Tzibur.

1:03:19 Speaker 2 There's such a-

1:03:20 Speaker 1 I, I, I remember hearing such a thing as a bachur. I don't know, I remember the bonkers. Ken zein it's true, ken zein it's not true. It's good Vort anyway.

1:03:27 Speaker 2 So let's not ruin it with, uh... Yeah, no, hmm.

1:03:31 Speaker 1 So I think, I, I, I think that when, when a person is not, not coming and saying, "I want this," but I'm, I, I... Like it or not, no matter where I o- go, there I am. No matter what I do, I'm still me, and the Aibishter is going to be my Aibishter, is gonna be the, the Aibishter of, of the Yidden bechalal mi befrat, and okay, let's deal with that.

1:03:54 Speaker 2 I mean, the way, in a way, the only... In a way, this whole theology, which you can't call theology 'cause that's also framing, but this whole approach, whatever-

1:04:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, but the thing is, like, at some point you say, like, you know, bite the bullet. So what? So w- w... If I'm not afraid of framing, so I'll use a frame when I need. What are they, what are, what are, what are they, what are the sociologists say, right? "No model is perfect, but some models are useful." It's like, okay.

1:04:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:17 Speaker 1 If a framing works, we'll use it.

1:04:18 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. So I saw, I saw, I saw a joke today about, like... Which it's about economists, but it, it just, it just, it just, it just shows the, the, the, the silliness of framing and, and when people get carried away with abstractions that, uh, two economists, two e- economists are walking through a field, and one econo- They, they come across a pile of, of drek. One economist turns to the other and says, "If I... If, if you eat this pile of drek, I'll give you a hundred bucks." So he, he eats a pile of drek, and he gets a hundred bucks. They walk to another field, and the, the con... And there's another pile of drek, and the economist who ate the pile of drek before turns to the other economist and says, "If you eat this one, I'll give you a hundred bucks." So he eats it, and they turn around, one of them turns around to the other and says, "What did we gain? We both, we both have what we started off with, and all we have is we've eaten a pile of drek." The second economist turns around and says, "What do you mean? We added two hundred dollars to GDP."

1:05:26 Speaker 1 It's a good joke.

1:05:27 Speaker 2 It's a great joke. It's a great joke. It's like you end up in a place where, where, where pashut your, your models end up taking over your life a- and nothing... A- and you end up pashut eating drek. You end up pashut eating drek.

1:05:40 Speaker 1 And at the same time, if you're too afraid to use a model, you end up, uh-

1:05:44 Speaker 2 Right. So you, you have to-

1:05:45 Speaker 1 Being, being silly and not having, you know, whatever.

1:05:47 Speaker 2 But, but what's very interesting about what you're saying to me is that, like, sometimes people say, "Okay, you know, the, the fact that you have a family and the fact that you have, uh, real... You know, a, a life." Uh, okay, this is all in, Chazal talks about in, in Chesed Levav is... He explains one of the reasons people have to fight for parnasas, pashut, so they don't get off the deep end, right? Like, it keeps people grounded and, and, and not asking terrifying questions and questions that take you to insanity. But a lot of times it seems like it, it, like it's a limiting mechanism. Like, you know, if we, if we let you dabble too much in the, in the, in the esoteric, you're gonna go crazy, so we're gonna ground you, and your wife is gonna tell you, "Stop it. Make a living," and your... You know. But what you're saying, at, at least the way I'm reading it, is much more than that. Like, in many ways, the emes is there in front of you. The, the way this approach works is that, yeah, but part of the emes is also the life that you're living.

1:06:45 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:46 Speaker 2 The life is not just to make sure that you hold on... No, the, the emes is all, is the life, right? And the life is just... The, the, the life is, in a way, what makes sure that, that the emes remains real.

1:06:59 Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's in, it, it... Emes is emes, so that, that's also part of the emes.

1:07:04 Speaker 2 Emes has to, emes has to be embodied, in other words.

1:07:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:07 Speaker 2 Right?

1:07:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:07 Speaker 2 We do not believe-

1:07:09 Speaker 1 In a disembodied emes.

1:07:10 Speaker 2 We do not believe in the Greek emes.

1:07:11 Speaker 1 No.

1:07:12 Speaker 2 No.

1:07:12 Speaker 1 No. We also, we also, we... I, I, I think-

1:07:15 Speaker 2 That's the only way chesed works is-

1:07:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

1:07:16 Speaker 2 ... is, is, is what you're saying.

1:07:18 Speaker 1 I, I, I mean, I, I... That seems to me to be the case. I-

1:07:22 Speaker 2 Yes

1:07:22 Speaker 1 ... you know. I think, I think when we speak about the chesed, it's very much about achdus Hashem. If you stop and say, "What, what, what does that mean on a very, very, very simple level?" That means that if I compartmentalize and I say, "This is where the Aibishter is, and that thing is something, whatever," it's not achdus Hashem.

1:07:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:47 Speaker 1 So, okay. So it's not, "Oh, you know, achdus Hashem is found in learning a ma'amar, but then I have to go make a living."

1:07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:55 Speaker 1 And say, okay, you can start giving all sorts of biur and explanations, but before we get to the biur and explanations, an Aibishter that you only find in a ma'amar and can't find in making a living, an Aibishter that you only find in, in, in, in, in, in, uh, some one area of life but you can't find him in another area of life is Navoi Dezorah.

1:08:14 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:08:16 Speaker 1 Before we get to the hesber, before we get to the explanation, a- a- as, as, as a hanacha in, in one's sense of there's me and there's the Aibishter-

1:08:25 Speaker 2 'Cause you're saying that there's a part of the, of your life that's, that's Godless.

1:08:29 Speaker 1 Right. And so then that means whatever the, whatever, whatever sense of God that you have is, is something that you've conjured up.

1:08:35 Speaker 2 It's also not God. It's also not God.

1:08:35 Speaker 1 It's also not God.

1:08:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:08:36 Speaker 1 So don't worship it.

1:08:37 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I, I, I, uh, I was... I, I, I, I, I paid attention last week. I was so enamored by, uh, the Mayim Rabim of the Alter Rebbe, which, you know, a very famous Mayim, uh, of, of Torah. And it was, it was striking to me because I, I, I was previously reading Kudsha Mayim where the Rebbe Rashab speaks for pages about the shtus of Tzidkas Hapanim. You know, very Chabad Lubavitch, uh-

1:09:08 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:09:08 Speaker 2 ... you know, and very... It's a beautiful, it's a beaut- I love, I love Kudsha Mayim, and it really spoke to me 'cause it, it feels almost like the Rebbe Rashab is skipping 100 years and talking to the American businessman who can actually make a living. He's talking about the shtus of making a living. Nobody in Russia's making a living. There's like 10 people in St. Petersburg. Everybody else was not. Like, the 10 in the Kudsha Mayim, they're... It's, the Chabad was also spelling out how Yidden partially had no money. So who's he talking about the shtus of making a parnasah? I, I, I feel like he's skipping 100 years and talking to us. I felt... But then... A-and it's true what he's saying, obviously, it make... But the Alter Rebbe in, in, in Mayim Rabim, he, he d-doesn't say the Mayim, the, that Tzidkas Hapanim is... It might be a shtus, but it's not therefore fake.

1:09:54 Speaker 1 Right.

1:09:54 Speaker 2 It's real. And, and, and not only is it there in order to make you stronger, that itself is an expression of Vayelam eto yo. It, it's, it's... God's there too, right? It's the whole part that, that, that the Baalei Hasaggim, their tefillah can be stronger and, and, and higher, I think, than is, than the-

1:10:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

1:10:12 Speaker 2 ... than the Yisroel. The, the-

1:10:14 Speaker 1 That, that whole Mayim Rabim-

1:10:14 Speaker 2 There's God there too

1:10:15 Speaker 1 ... that whole Mayim Rabim, uh, I have a little bit of a pet peeve with that Mayim Rabim.

1:10:19 Speaker 2 Oh, you go on.

1:10:19 Speaker 1 Not with the Mayim Rabim itself, with how people learn the Mayim Rabim.

1:10:22 Speaker 2 Okay. I wanna hear.

1:10:24 Speaker 1 I think sometimes people just completely miss the point.

1:10:27 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:10:27 Speaker 1 'Cause this whole thing, Tzidkas Hapanim, everyone learns, like, they, they, they start learning Kudsha Mayim in that Mayim Rabim.

1:10:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 You're not supposed to have Tzidkas Hapanim.

1:10:33 Speaker 2 It's op-it's opposite.

1:10:33 Speaker 1 And the whole point of it is no, no, this is, yeah, you're that grub. You're that whatever-

1:10:38 Speaker 2 You're overwhelmed

1:10:39 Speaker 1 ... that you're, you're overwhelmed with Tzidkas Hapanim also, and you don't see the truth. And you know what? That doesn't mean that you do not have a powerful connection with the Abyssinian that can be real.

1:10:48 Speaker 2 I don't care.

1:10:48 Speaker 1 That's the whole point of the Mayim Rabim.

1:10:49 Speaker 2 That mabul- ... that, that Tzidkas Hapanim is a mabul, and that mabul comes from God.

1:10:54 Speaker 1 Right. And-

1:10:55 Speaker 2 That is your deepest encounter with God

1:10:57 Speaker 1 ... and I, I just... I have lots of, uh, what? Friends, people I speak to who, who, who do have Tzidkas Hapanim, and they, they keep trying, like, "How do I get that Tzidkas Hapanim?" It's like, I mean, we even could have a discussion, but that's not what this Mayim Rabim is telling you.

1:11:07 Speaker 2 This Mayim Rabim, yes.

1:11:07 Speaker 1 This Mayim Rabim is not telling you this.

1:11:08 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:11:08 Speaker 1 This Mayim Rabim is telling you that, for lacking, I'll just say, lean into the fact that you have Tzidkas Hapanim also-

1:11:13 Speaker 2 Yes

1:11:14 Speaker 1 ... and recognize it. That's the reality of who you are, at least for right now.

1:11:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:17 Speaker 1 And, and, and there's something about beauty, it means to, to be connected to Abyssinian and to daven that you have-

1:11:24 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:24 Speaker 1 ... that's real.

1:11:25 Speaker 2 Right. Be real.

1:11:26 Speaker 1 Be real with that.

1:11:26 Speaker 2 Push through it.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 That's, that's what the, that's what the... Yeah.

1:11:28 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:28 Speaker 1 And so, again, it's not a problem with the Mayim Rabim, it's just I, I... How many conversations I've had with people say, "So, so, so how much am I supposed to really wear?" It's like, uh, that's not what the Mayim Rabim is getting at.

1:11:37 Speaker 2 No, that's Kudsha Mayim. And, and the other-

1:11:39 Speaker 1 It's also true. It's also true. It's also very important.

1:11:41 Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah. No, so I, I, I, I push it. I, I, I I, I, I, I loved it. I, I pushed, loved it. And I think that's what you're talking about here also, is that the, that's the only way this works because if, if, if we, if we, if we, if, if, if we become too s- if we come too, like, uh, r- you know, uh, formulaic, you do this, like, there's a schedule to you, this guide, it's clear that Chassidus is trying to push through that. There has to be inspiration. There has to be feeling. There has to be sponta- there has to be life. That, right? But you can therefore think, "Okay, the point is to push past, past life, pa-" But no, but then, like you're saying, that that's, that's also missing the point. It's not just that life has to ground you. The... This is what it's about. You just ha- you have to make sure that, that, that it's em- that it's completely imbued and, and, and like Shemen Rav Faya Bechol Dover.

1:12:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:12:40 Speaker 2 Right? The point is not to find the oil on top of the water. The point is for the oil to seep through everything, right? It... Listen, okay, maybe to you-

1:12:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:12:49 Speaker 2 ... it seems like you're nodding your head, like it's a dvara pashut. To me, it is a dvara pashut.

1:12:52 Speaker 1 I, it-

1:12:52 Speaker 2 It is a dvara pashut when you put it that way.

1:12:54 Speaker 1 It's a dvara pashut when you sit in a classroom and have a conversation, you whatever. But, uh, it's not always dvara pashut when you're, when you have things going on in life. It's not always dvara pashut when you, when you want a break and to, to feel elevated and spiritual. When, when, when a person, when a person's honest, we, we, w-we have this thing that we're somewhere, and we often want to be somewhere else where we-

1:13:19 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:13:20 Speaker 1 And, and a lot of what Chassidus is saying is that, "But you are still here."

1:13:26 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:13:26 Speaker 1 Like you are still you.

1:13:28 Speaker 2 Oh, I love that. I-

1:13:28 Speaker 1 And, and so, like, the... Okay, that desire is true, and you also have, uh, whatever the, the reality of things.

1:13:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:13:36 Speaker 1 And, and the Abyssinian has to be found in, in the Vayehi Erev Vayehi Boker Yhiye Mechad. The Erev and the Boker together become one day. The achdus is found-

1:13:43 Speaker 2 Through the Erev. Through the Boker

1:13:44 Speaker 1 ... through the Erev and the Boker together, not preferring one over the other.

1:13:47 Speaker 2 Yeah. I, I tell you, um, this past Tishrei, um, I don't wanna go on a whole memoir about it now, but I, I, you know, for, for, for us grub in the live, uh, us, if they ever decide to live in a Chutz La'aretz.

1:14:01 Speaker 1 Be Tahara. Be Tahara.

1:14:02 Speaker 2 Be Tahara, yes. I, uh, uh, and a little bit, a little bit extra grubkeit, uh, you know, but whatever. Um, you know, the, one of the ma'alas though is that we have to do Ziyun Tif, so, you know-

1:14:12 Speaker 1 It's a big ma'ala.

1:14:13 Speaker 2 It's a big ma'ala. I, I, I... As I get older, I love more and more to do Ziyun Tif, especially, you know, you can have a, you can have a cigar and, you know, sit with a Mayim Rabim and, you know, talking about grubkeit, whatever, sitting in the sukkah learning. But, uh, you know, I push it. I, I loved every minute of it. I still miss it. I can't... You know, I, I, I mamash miss it. And that's only a couple weeks ago, it's hard to believe. But there was this line that I, that I learned in the, in, in Te- in the Kudsha Torah of Shemini Atzeres. I don't even know if I... It wasn't like... I don't even know if I was p- if I pushed myself to learn the rest of the Mayim Rabim. I don't think the Mayim Rabim grabbed me. It was this line that in the time of, uh, Churban Habayis or after Beis Hamikdash, I forget how he phrased it exactly. Tarich Nimsei Divichefitz Benafshe.

1:15:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:15:02 Speaker 2 Right?

1:15:02 Speaker 1 I think it's the first Shemini Atzeres.

1:15:04 Speaker 2 Yes. Correct.

1:15:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:05 Speaker 2 Correct. And it could be it's a common phrase. I, I, I don't know. Like, I don't know where-

1:15:09 Speaker 1 It's, it's a special one

1:15:10 Speaker 2 ... but... No, and I was thinking about it, and the more I thought about it, push, it grew on me. and 'cause it's what you're talking about. It's, like, so many people, and you see it online, and you see it from people that are very thoughtful, so much of life, even people that are mega successful, everybody's always regretting, "Maybe I could have done something else." Everybody's trying to-- Everybody's thinking about being somewhere else, right? In their own lives, in someone else's life. It's very hard to commit to something and go with it. Everybody, everybody's wondering, you know, maybe i-in the secular world, you know, maybe I, maybe I should, uh, I should, I should marry this person because maybe someone else is gonna come around, uh, f-for me, and maybe I also think that way. Uh, you know, I'll choose... I, I don't... I can't commit to this career 'cause maybe another career. Commitments become very, very hard to find 'cause everybody's worried maybe there's something better out there. And and it's not just about careers, obviously, or whatever. To me, it was like, I have to find it here. Like, and it can be found here. Like, there's just... There, there's a treasure here in my, in my space that I'm just... I, I have to find it. It's there, but I have to find it. I-

1:16:24 Speaker 1 But it's in all of our space.

1:16:25 Speaker 2 No, no.

1:16:25 Speaker 1 No, I mean, saying, I'm saying when a person says, "In my space," like say, "I can find it in this corner of my life," but if it, if it's really that treasure-

1:16:32 Speaker 2 Oh, in, oh, in all of my space

1:16:33 Speaker 1 ... all of my space, it's in my, it's in my, my, it's in my Shalom Bayis-

1:16:37 Speaker 2 Right

1:16:38 Speaker 1 ... or it's in my business, it's in my, my learning, it's in my davening, it's in my skeletons in my closet.

1:16:45 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:16:46 Speaker 1 If, if it's really the treasure of the Aibishter, the, the Aibishter, he's the context of our entire life.

1:16:54 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:16:54 Speaker 1 So, so going back to that achas Hashem thing, it's, it's real. That, that, that... So if f-f-f... If I start... I, I could make the mistake I'm looking for it over here, I'm looking for it over there, but I could also make the mistake, "Oh, it's, it's right here," but it's in this corner of my life.

1:17:09 Speaker 2 Right, right. I see what you're saying, yeah.

1:17:10 Speaker 1 It's not davka in that corner. It's in, in all the corners.

1:17:13 Speaker 2 And I thought you meant in all of our lives-

1:17:15 Speaker 1 Oh, that's-

1:17:15 Speaker 2 ... plural also.

1:17:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. Also true.

1:17:16 Speaker 2 But you were, you were emphasizing... Yes, I agree with that. It c- 'cause it's the same problem. You have to find it everywhere, but benavsheh is everything.

1:17:24 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:25 Speaker 2 Yeah. To go back to something we were talking about before we started recording, the, you know, that, that, that story that, uh, you know, the famous story is brought in Bas Sefer HaGani. I think it's brought up at l- I, I know it's brought at much longer length elsewhere, and we all know it about the Marash with going, traveling all this way, and it was known that Marash didn't have time and was, you know... And, uh, he traveled all this way to go to a casino, and he rented a room, right? Then he walked into the gambling floor, and he walked over to this, this guy who looked like a complete hedonistic, you know, grubkite. And, uh, and he... A Trump-like figure. Sorry. Sorry, all you Trumpsters. And, you know, he walks up to him and, and he w- and he says, "Yungerman, yungerman, uh," right? And for, and for, you know, for as long as I can remember, I know this story forever. For as long as I can remember, I always saw myself as like, "Okay, the rabbi's telling me that," you know, 'cause it's brought in Bas Sefer HaGani. It's part of the That's a lesson to all Chassidim that we should all go. Shlichas. Find a Yid and, like, be mekarev him. And then I realized, "Wait a second. Maybe, maybe I'm that person in the casino." Right? I'm not the person finding the person in the casino. I'm the person in that casino. And the reason I bring it up

1:18:52 Speaker 2 is because the, you're talking about Chassidus permeating our lives. The, the Rebbe comes up to you in the casino of your life, the place that you would be horrified for him to find you in, the place that you're horrified to f-see yourself in, and he whispers it. Look, everybody can tie themselves up as they want, okay? Everybody has, I think, s- moments of deep, deep shame. And, you know... And so it's like, "Oh, what would the Rebbe say if he saw you this way?" Maybe he would come up to you and whisper to you in your ear and tell you softly, "I've come all this way just to, just to lend you a hand, to tell you, like... And I'm not berating you. I'm pashtut reminding you that you're c- you know, you're, you're, you have a neshamah, and, and, and you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're forgetting about God in this dark place."

1:19:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. The... One of the, one of the things that, uh, I think is a... I find to be a very useful technique, and I've, I told it to, to bachurim sometimes I've asked is that before you learn a maimer, is to remember who said the maimer, and they didn't say generically. He said the maimer to you. Hmm. But I will say, you know, the, the, the-

1:20:23 Speaker 2 He would have said it to you if it was just you in the room.

1:20:25 Speaker 1 Right. And, and, and we can even get into all questions with but the Rebbe, the... There's a famous story the Rebbe said about the Rebbe Rash and the, and the Rebbe Rashab, that the Rebbe Rash sometimes would say that he's going to read Chassidus and sometimes zog Chassidus, and that's the lashon. Hmm, the Rebbe Rashab realized there's, there's a difference between the two. And so Rebbe Rashab didn't go and ask right away 'cause apparently he tries to figure out himself. But when he realized he couldn't figure it out, he went and asked the Rebbe Rash. Rebbe Rash said... I don't remember which lashon was which. But when he says a maimer and he thinks to shame him, people who are hearing will be able to understand it, so he uses one lashon to do the maimer. I don't remember which one was which. But if he says a ma'amar but he thinks it's negeah to them, ch- them or to, to their children and their grandchildren, then he uses the other lashon.

1:21:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:13 Speaker 1 I, I... Not a rebbe. I don't, I don't know how rebbes do what they do.

1:21:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:16 Speaker 1 But there's a, there's a ruach hakodesh, and I don't mean that in a, in a, like, a, a mystical way. I mean, there's a sense that the Aibishter is, is, is, is making his hashgachah in the long term felt through decisions and the things the rebbe says. And so if the rebbe says a ma'amar and you end up learning that ma'amar-

1:21:42 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:43 Speaker 1 Right? There's, uh, uh, yes, it's, it's meant for you and, and the rebbe has a message for you. And okay, I would learn the ma'amar very differently if it came in the mail and it said Yitzchak Kaufman and had the return address, uh, Rabbi Schnerson seventy East of Berkeley. I would probably learn the ma'amar differently.

1:22:01 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Put on the guard-

1:22:03 Speaker 1 And so-

1:22:03 Speaker 2 Put on the guard phone.

1:22:03 Speaker 1 Right. And so, you know, uh, y- just to a, a, a second, mamash a second of his bais nusach of that before learning a ma'amar, learning a sicha, it, it changes something.

1:22:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:22:15 Speaker 1 Another, another technique, you know, sometimes, you know, there's, you know, personal- to personalize things, you know. I was talking to a friend in shul. He says um, he was talking about Shehecheyanu, right? Talking about the, you know, the nivra and there's the, there's the nivra and Elokus in the nivra and there's the Varvai in the nivra. I said, "You know, it's all very well and good you talk about the nivra, but if you take out the word nivra and you say me"

1:22:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:22:35 Speaker 1 All of a sudden Shehecheyanu becomes a whole different sefer.

1:22:38 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:22:39 Speaker 1 Right?

1:22:39 Speaker 2 Right. My grandfather used to say that they... The, the, the joke that him and his f- that him and some of the businessmen in Philadelphia would say was one person would shtech, one person would shtech the other, "Nu, so what do you say about the human race?" And the response would be, "I say you join it." Right? We, we, we, we like to separate ourselves-

1:23:03 Speaker 1 Right

1:23:03 Speaker 2 ...from the klal.

1:23:04 Speaker 1 The Alter says in Tanya, right? You know, don't, don't say... You know, the whole zibernus, everybody should be part of the avodah and include yourself.

1:23:10 Speaker 2 Include yourself. You're part of us, so.

1:23:13 Speaker 1 So I, I think that, that, that, uh, I don't know what you call it, personalizing, taking ownership, but something along those lines I think is a very important part of daas yechidus.

1:23:21 Speaker 2 I love... Yeah. I love the taytch that you're saying ruach hakodesh because it, it makes me think that, like, you know, there's this science fiction-y way of ruach hakodesh where like, yeah, how does... And it becomes this whole question of how do you see the fu- future? Kilu that you're gonna understand how it works, and that kilu if you knew how, understood how it works, it would make a difference. It's like this whole, like, trying to understand the machinery of it. Um, but there's also, like, the, like, in a way, like, uh, the Rambam, you talk about Moreh Nevuchim, the little bit of Moreh Nevuchim that I know, the, the way he describes lashon hakodesh, that what makes, um, lashon hakodesh unique is that, uh... No, actually, this is not the Rambam, this is the Ramban.

1:23:57 Speaker 1 It's Ramban.

1:23:57 Speaker 2 Lashon hakodesh says that, uh, the Rambam says that it doesn't use any, any double words.

1:24:01 Speaker 1 Doesn't have any double words, right.

1:24:02 Speaker 2 But the Ramban uses lashon hakodesh that, that this is the actual reality of the world.

1:24:08 Speaker 1 Right. It's the language the Aibishter uses to bring reality into being.

1:24:11 Speaker 2 So it's actual, it's the actual stuff of reality.

1:24:14 Speaker 1 It is, it is-

1:24:14 Speaker 2 Everything else is descriptive and, and groping for, for approximations. Lashon hakodesh is. When it, when, when you call something by the word lashon hakodesh, that's what brought it into being. That is its existence. It's the stuff of reality.

1:24:26 Speaker 1 That has a, that has an effect in how you learn Torah, by the way.

1:24:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:24:30 Speaker 1 Because that means the one thing that's real-

1:24:32 Speaker 2 Is the Torah

1:24:33 Speaker 1 ...is the words of the Torah.

1:24:34 Speaker 2 The words of the Torah.

1:24:34 Speaker 1 My understanding of it-

1:24:36 Speaker 2 Right

1:24:36 Speaker 1 ...can grow and can change and can revise.

1:24:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:39 Speaker 1 Right? The... But it's like, uh, uh, Mashal like to use is, like, there's a gemstone. You can put it in different settings and make different jewelry, but it, it... There's a reality to it.

1:24:48 Speaker 2 Right. True.

1:24:48 Speaker 1 This is the words. These are the words of the Rebbe. These are the words of Chazal. And the Aibishter is, is engaged with us through them and, and it will take on new meaning in different ways as I grow and as I change and say them.

1:24:58 Speaker 2 So it's like the, the opposite of what you said earlier. Before you said that when you give a shiur, you say, uh, "I got something wrong. We'll find out what it is." In a way, it's like, uh, everything I'm saying is right. We're just, we're not sure wh- wh- we-

1:25:09 Speaker 1 No, both things are true.

1:25:10 Speaker 2 Both things. No, I'm saying-

1:25:11 Speaker 1 Some of it's pashat haTaCh.

1:25:13 Speaker 2 Yes. No, but I'm saying-

1:25:13 Speaker 1 And some of it's a certain layer of, uh, and there's other layers.

1:25:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:25:16 Speaker 1 They're not contradictory things.

1:25:17 Speaker 2 Right. So I think ruach hakodesh, the way, the way you're describing it here is similar, where it's, it's not so much, like, the, the, the effects or the machinery of it and the capabilities of it. It's more there's a spirit of kedushah. What does that mean? There's a spirit that... There's a, there's a, there's a, there's an, there's a, a way of seeing the world where it, everything is permeated through and through, and there's no approximations. There's no distance between the spirit, the, the, the, the, the, the ruach of it and, and what it's, and what it's describing, what it's seeing. Right? There, there's no, there's no distance. It-

1:25:58 Speaker 1 There's, there's, there's, like... If you think about it, like, there's a health between what's happening in the world and how the Aibishter wants to relate to the world, that there's, there's... You know, a person's healthy and they wanna move their hand, their hand moves.

1:26:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:12 Speaker 1 A ruach hakodesh is the, the... What's happening in the world, be'einei basar, the, it, it, it brings out what the Aibishter wants in a very real way. And so it has effects and it has reaching. And so a, a, a, a, a tzadik, a rebbe is, is, is a conduit for that, to what, what he's experiencing, what he knows, what he doesn't know. I mean, the rebbe didn't, like, write a diary and told me what he was thinking, right? I don't know. But it's very clear that, that, that, that some, you know, some things are carry, carry a tr- a, a truth to them that, that, that is applicable far beyond what, what a person's able to necessarily understand, a regular person understand. So if, if a rebbe says a ma'amar and the hashgachah protis, I get that ma'amar, right? Alder, you know, we say neviim, right? The neviim, they said a nevua, and then Shkest will put it down, and now you're reading a haftar. It's, it, it's meant for you.

1:27:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:05 Speaker 1 It's not generic whatever. So there's the, there's, the Aibishter wants to reach you, and this is the- It's reaching you and it's coming to you.

1:27:13 Speaker 2 So just to bring this full circle, and maybe it's a mistake for me to do this 'cause we could have, we could have just ended on a very high note. I'm taking a gamble. Maybe we're gonna, maybe we're gonna descend, maybe we're gonna go even higher. We'll see. But I wanna bring it full circle 'cause at least personally, selfishly, I wanted to ask this question. You, you mentioned earlier, a little bit offhand, that, that, uh, you know, you've dab- you've dabbled in philosophy or it's your favorite pastime, and it never... It's... Personally, it's never affected you. It's never made you really-

1:27:42 Speaker 1 Not that it's ever affected me. It's never affected me on that level.

1:27:44 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand.

1:27:45 Speaker 1 No.

1:27:45 Speaker 2 No, no, I, no, I understand what you mean. Like, it's never... You, you... "Oh, that's an interesting question," but never like, it never shook your foundations, if I understand correctly.

1:27:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:27:54 Speaker 2 Is it-- Are you ever worried in a way, like, in a kind of, like, meta way that, you know, when you're so secure about the truth of, of what you're mechabbal that maybe you're being naive? Because that, to me, seems to be the w- the Achilles' heel, if possible, about this whole, this totalizing or this whole kind of very comprehensive, uh, experience of the world or it's, or, or theology, again.

1:28:21 Speaker 1 I mean-

1:28:22 Speaker 2 Is that, is that... It's so, it's so complete and so tidy, and it, it kind of circles you completely that it's like you, you have no objectivity to it.

1:28:34 Speaker 1 I mean, I, I think you asked two different questions.

1:28:36 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:28:37 Speaker 1 So one is naive. I don't think it's naive 'cause I think being naive thrives on ignorance.

1:28:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:28:43 Speaker 1 And, and when a person... And, and that's, I mean, that's not me. I- ... I, you know, I, I like to know things. Sometimes, sometimes you have to do Kabbalah so where the Torah says, "Maybe you shouldn't be reading this." And it's okay, maybe it just doesn't want me to read it, so I shouldn't read it, but I like to know things. I'm very curious and, uh-

1:28:58 Speaker 2 Okay

1:28:58 Speaker 1 ... I w- I, I, I wanna know the things I don't know, and I wanna h-hear the questions I haven't asked. And, uh, so I don't... That doesn't strike me as the issue of being naive. The other thing about objectivity, I, I, I would say, yeah, but I just... I, I don't think that... I think there's a false notion of objectivity. You can sort of stand outside your life and with some measure that's, you know, I think purely just a fiction, somehow determine whatever, determine truth. And I just don't think that that's... That's not what we are. That's not what people are. That's not what a created being could be. And th- it's... So if I'm a person, I'm a created being, uh, so I have to be what I am. And, and i-i-it's like, you know, like, I also don't have wings and can't fly. It's like

1:29:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:47 Speaker 1 You know? Um.

1:29:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

1:29:50 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I, I don't... I-it-it-it-it-it-it-it's like it, it... It's... I feel like it's, like, the ultimate straw man.

1:29:56 Speaker 2 I don't have to take heroin to know it's bad.

1:29:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:30:00 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, your... How could you be objective about heroin if you don't take it? It's-

1:30:04 Speaker 1 It's not that I don't believe in objectivity. I mean, I do believe in objectivity.

1:30:07 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:30:07 Speaker 1 But I believe objectivity is-

1:30:09 Speaker 2 Overrated.

1:30:12 Speaker 1 It's, it's over... It, it, it's overrated because, for lack of words, people aren't being very objective about what they mean by it. And therefore, they end up deifying it and making it a fiction-

1:30:28 Speaker 2 Oh

1:30:28 Speaker 1 ... that doesn't, that isn't real.

1:30:29 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:29 Speaker 1 But there is an objectivity to things, and there's levels of, uh, kinds of objectivity. And, uh, you know, one of... I, I like, I like knowing why we use the words we use for, for... You know, it's interesting why an objective is both a goal and has something to do with this notion of, like, you know, truth. There's a reason why I am, okay. But knowing what do you mean by objective, why, what do, what are the different meanings that people mean? And understand, oh, okay, so, like, yes, there's a place for it, but it can't do the work that it can't do.

1:30:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:30:56 Speaker 1 A maimer can't tell you how to pasken a shalom in hilchot Shabbos. Objectivity can't ground life.

1:31:02 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:31:02 Speaker 1 But a life without objectivity is, is, is hefker and is, and is, and is, and is, and is, is, is arguably, it, it, it's mafes itself. So okay, it has a very important place.

1:31:12 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:31:13 Speaker 1 So, you know, uh, you know, you don't worship the sun, you don't worship the moon, you don't worship objectivity, you don't worship subjectivity, you worship the Nishtar. That's what we worship, hopefully.

1:31:22 Speaker 2 Very good.

1:31:22 Speaker 1 Or who we worship, however you're putting it.

1:31:24 Speaker 2 I'm very glad I asked that question. I'm very glad I asked it. All right, thank you very much.

1:31:28 Speaker 1 My-

1:31:28 Speaker 2 It's been a lot of fun.

1:31:29 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

1:31:29 Speaker 2 I hope, I hope you've, uh, enjoyed, and I hope everyone that's listening-

1:31:32 Speaker 1 My pleasure

1:31:32 Speaker 2 ... enjoyed. All right, good tonight.

1:31:33 Speaker 1 You too.

1:31:36 Speaker 2 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bahar, and is used with their permission.