Ep. 63 // "Every Chossid is Different" w/ Rabbi Choni Friedman

00:00 Speaker 1 What's the Alter Rebbe's problem that he's addressing in the Hakdama? His first problem is nobody is supposed to be the same. We are, and we therefore have to find an Avodas Hashem that's different.

00:11 Speaker 2 Right.

00:12 Speaker 1 And the job of the Rebbe or, or Tanya is to allow each one of us to find our own different way. So the whole Chabad from the very beginning was never about making some type of everybody the same system. I think that's one of the things that I think is most challenging in Chabad today, is that we always love to see the Rebbe in ourselves, and we have a very hard time seeing the Rebbe in another.

00:36 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Benji Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I am here with Rabbi Choni Friedman of Pittsburgh. What's the, what's the area?

01:00 Speaker 1 Here at Greenfield.

01:01 Speaker 2 Greenfield, which is a neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Um, pleasure to meet you. I, I, I do remember you vaguely from back in the day. I actually, I've -- I actually was in yeshiva here or school here for about a year, um, seventh and eighth grade. And I think it was about then that you got married.

01:22 Speaker 1 Possibly.

01:23 Speaker 2 Or Chesky. Your, your brother-in-law Chesky's bar mitzvah.

01:27 Speaker 1 Yes, I was there.

01:27 Speaker 2 I think you just got, you-- I think you had just gotten married. At least I, I remember-

01:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, a year before

01:31 Speaker 2 ... 'cause I was friends with Chesky, and I remember, like, his first sister got married, and I remember you coming over for Shabbos. I used to hang out with you from time to time. So that, that was, I think, the last time I've, uh, bumped into you. Um, anyway, thank you for coming on.

01:45 Speaker 1 No problem. By the way, before we go further-

01:47 Speaker 2 Yeah

01:48 Speaker 1 ... I'm gonna go down a side here. You're, you're hitting that glass. Do you hear it or?

01:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, whatever.

01:52 Speaker 1 It's fine? It's not fine?

01:52 Speaker 2 No, no. Yeah, you're right.

01:54 Speaker 1 No problem. I'm, I'm s-

01:55 Speaker 2 You're right. You're right. Um-

01:58 Speaker 1 So let me say as well, actually, um, I remember on one of your podcasts you were speaking about the, the story about you chazzaring a ma'amar by the oil. And I was like-

02:08 Speaker 2 I got like-

02:08 Speaker 1 I remember standing once, I remember standing once at the oil listening to Benji Afson chazzar a ma'amar.

02:13 Speaker 2 Oh, you were there?

02:14 Speaker 1 It could be. It was long-

02:15 Speaker 2 It was only, it was only one time.

02:16 Speaker 1 One time?

02:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

02:17 Speaker 1 And I was like, "Wow." But at the same time like, "Who would do this?"

02:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, look at, look at the... Uh, s- you know, one of the ways of dealing with, like, a moment that pisses you off is like, is number one is like, "Okay, this is a good story for down the road." This is way, way well before I had a podcast. But that's how you... People, people like, "How do you deal with... How did, how did you deal with that?" Well, that's a good story. It's a, a good story to keep in the pocket. You know? You never know when ... And I, and I, and I got my use out of it. That story, that story made its rounds. But, uh, that's funny.

02:49 Speaker 1 But I will say that I miss it.

02:51 Speaker 2 You miss what?

02:53 Speaker 1 Lately you go Shabbos to the oil.

02:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

02:55 Speaker 1 And I go. There is no chazzaras dach.

02:59 Speaker 2 That n- that didn't usually go on, uh, let's be honest. That wasn't going on every week there.

03:03 Speaker 1 But it was going on for a few years at the bigger Shabbosim that I came.

03:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

03:06 Speaker 1 At the end of Shabbos, there was like, there was something going on. There was-

03:10 Speaker 2 Right. They don't do seudah anymore?

03:12 Speaker 1 Maybe they do. I haven't seen it in the Shabbosim that I've gone.

03:15 Speaker 2 I haven't been there for years. I haven't been there for years. Look, I, I, I was a bit of a, an extremist when it came to chazzaring a ma'amar in a, in a-- back in LA already, in California. I was on schlichus in LA with, um, your fellow Pittsburgher, uh, Rabbi Eli Rubin. Um-

03:34 Speaker 1 He speaks of that.

03:35 Speaker 2 Yeah, about, about me going crazy in yeshiva.

03:37 Speaker 1 And chazzaring a ma'amar.

03:39 Speaker 2 Yeah. So that was, uh, yeah. So, so first of all, I c- I, I don't know if I took control or I was given control of, like, I was given, like, the acharayus of the ma'amar between min- you know, by saying the gun of Shabbos Mincha. And, like, the way it usually goes in yeshiva is you could ask a bachur to do a ma'amar, and then he, he maybe reads it before, maybe doesn't, and then he sits down, and he, like, reads it in front of everyone, and everyone's dozing off and sleeping, and, like, even he... I'm like, "To, to hell with this." Like, what would... Like, just better, in my opinion, just don't do it. So I made a policy that whoever's gonna chazzar a ma'amar has to know it by heart, preferably without a sefer in front of them. And if nobody else is gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And, you know, with practice, I don't have, like, a photographic memory or anything, but with practice, I was able to teach myself how in the course of a couple hours I could, you know, take a m- like memorize a ma'amar and chazzar it over. Not, not w- word for word, but in Yiddish or in English, I don't remember. Um, then to add to the, to add to the, the legend around it is I, I, I don't think I did this intentionally, but every Sha- every Shabbos afternoon I, we, I, I was one of the schlachim. We used

04:49 Speaker 2 to have a brain in the schlachim office. And so, you know, to put it, to put it lightly, I used to come to the, I used to come a little bit, um, you know, dizzy to Mincha. And yeah, uh, you know, I guess not dizzy enough, and that that was, I think, uh, something that people, um, found, found interesting.

05:11 Speaker 1 Here, Baruch Hashem, when, uh, Rabbi Eli Rubin came, so, uh, a little while later, we decided to start a seder chazzaras dach here in the shul.

05:20 Speaker 2 That's nice.

05:20 Speaker 1 Every Friday night, um, either myself, I do once a month, Rabbi Eli Leib does, and then we try to get other balabatim or other people to do. And, uh, every Friday night somebody chazzars a ma'amar. Um-

05:33 Speaker 2 That's nice

05:33 Speaker 1 ... and Eli Leib actually wrote a, uh, a, uh, a what is it called? A, uh, paper of based on different, uh, sichos of the Friediker Rebbe and the Rebbe how a ma'amar is supposed to be said.

05:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

05:45 Speaker 1 And it's meant to be it can't be longer than 12 minutes, and you have to say the tochen, not word for word. Basically, it's a giver and an inyan that people should be able to understand it, et cetera. And, uh, it's actually very nice. It's a, it's a, uh... And different people come and say, you know, "I," uh-

05:59 Speaker 2 Right. Look, look, just, just, just to go back to that ma'amar at the oil, I know it was longer than 12 minutes, but to defend it- It was, I think it was t- I think it was the Basse Lagani of Tosh Lamad Alef-

06:11 Speaker 1 Right

06:11 Speaker 2 ... which is an extremely long ma'amar, and I only chasid half of it. So it wasn't like, you know, gratuitously, you know, uh, metaras zabrius. Uh, you know, may-

06:21 Speaker 1 No

06:21 Speaker 2 ... maybe I was trying to show off, but I, I, I, I, I, I was supposed to chasid the ma'amar. How are you supposed to chasid the first four sifim and stop? Like, I did half.

06:29 Speaker 1 No. If anything, I have tinus the other way around. Number one, unbelievable. Good for you. I mean, like, like, like farkert. I wish that we could all chasid ma'amarim like this, and people would do it.

06:39 Speaker 2 Right.

06:39 Speaker 1 But I wish even more that we would care about it. We're in a new Lubavitch where we don't care. Lubavitch has become-

06:46 Speaker 2 Well, why, why, why, why do you think we don't care? We don't care because the people doing it don't care. Like, you cannot expect Bochurim to care about a practice when they see the people doing it at the top don't really care.

06:57 Speaker 1 Correct. So my-

06:57 Speaker 2 And, and one of the reasons I was f- first, I think, inspired to chasid ma'amarim was because if you go to Seven seventy, I don't know what goes on today, I haven't been there for years, but for a bunch of, for, for a bunch of years, every Shabbos afternoon, there was someone chasidim ma'amar, and, you know, they'd sit in the gunem, someone chasidim ma'amar, never with a Sefer in front of them, Baal HaBatim of Crown Heights. The, I think one of your uncles was, and, uh, there were other people. Every- It was different every, every week. And it's like, you see people that, that are g- maybe they're good at it, maybe it's easy for them, but at least they take it seriously. See Grunblatt in Argentina. See Grunblatt in Argentina. He's a shliach, he's busy, like, but he, he was one of the chasidim in the Lameds. He has a tremendous memory. He remembers a lot of the ma'amar from back then. And sometimes he has a Sefer in front of him, 'cause I don't know if he has time to ma'amar learn it by heart, but he's not talking from the Sefer, and he's talking in Castellano, in Spanish. We are, we were in Ar- we were in Argentina.

07:47 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

07:47 Speaker 2 And he's sitting there holding court for forty-five minutes between milchemuir, chasidim ma'amar, with his eyes open, talking to the peop- like, teaching it to them. And sometimes there's ten people in front of him. He doesn't care. You see a s- you see something like that, you care.

08:03 Speaker 1 Right. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going from a different... I'm going from a more, uh, uh, a bigger view perspective. You know, in Chabad, and you could say maybe in, uh, in, in, in the forty years from Tofshin Yud to Tofshin Nun Beis, maybe this changed slightly. But Chabad stood for Avodas Hatfilah and Chazarat Hasach. Now, I don't wanna get... Uh, uh, we could also go into shlichus and, and community work, which was always in Chabad. But if you talk about Chabad as like, what did our parents go to the Rebbe for? To hear chassidus.

08:37 Speaker 2 Right.

08:40 Speaker 1 What is Chabad if we're not chasidim chassidus? That means you're coming to the oil for a Shabbos, or you're coming to a, a, a group of friends for a Shabbos, whatever, and you're, you're trying to re-energize yourself. We wanted the Rebbe to take the Nasius by chasidim ma'amar.

09:02 Speaker 2 I just foc- that's what, yeah. Just focus on what about that.

09:05 Speaker 1 Right? Where have we gone... In other words... I think this is what I'm talking about looking forward. I mean, in, in, in, in, in when we started some of this conversation here, is that-

09:16 Speaker 2 Wait. Are you saying that Derech Shvi started in Tofshin Yud Alef?

09:19 Speaker 1 And not when?

09:20 Speaker 2 Tofshin Yud.

09:21 Speaker 1 I didn't mean that in any way.

09:23 Speaker 2 I, I don't know if I can talk to you.

09:23 Speaker 1 The Rebbe Rashab says Derech Shvi. The Frierdiker Rebbe says Derech Shvi. And even before-

09:27 Speaker 2 I'm, I'm just saying, I'm saying, you're saying the Rebbe's Nasius started in Tofshin Yud Alef?

09:30 Speaker 1 I didn't mean to say it in any way.

09:31 Speaker 2 Okay.

09:31 Speaker 1 It could be, it could be not. I'm not here for that conversation.

09:35 Speaker 2 I think it, I think it did, just for the record. But, uh-

09:39 Speaker 1 Well, you find it in, like, in Nun Beis, the Rebbe actually is in the sa- in the sicha there, I think, the Rebbe starts speaking about Yud Alef versus Yud. So you could take that, you could take that-

09:48 Speaker 2 I mean, I'm sure-

09:49 Speaker 1 I mean, and by the way-

09:50 Speaker 2 On some level, maybe, but I think basically it was t- when he said a ma'amar, he was accepting-

09:54 Speaker 1 So I don't know if the word is davka saying the ma'amar, but you see, for example, when it comes to the Rebbe Rashab, right? Um, it says that for eleven years he was-

10:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, he would only say ma'amar

10:02 Speaker 1 ... and then when he went into his father-in-law's... he went into his father's place, at Rebbe Shoshana Taf Rish Nun Daled, right?

10:07 Speaker 2 Right.

10:08 Speaker 1 He officially came back from the oil, he went to his spot. If you ask a chassid, he would tell you he was the Rebbe for the eleven years before.

10:14 Speaker 2 Right. But he would say no.

10:15 Speaker 1 He would say no. So I think it's in just ambiguous. Like, like when did the Rebbe officially... Does it make or make a difference to me? I don't even, I don't even... Uh, these things don't bother me. If it happened in Yud or Tofshin Yud Alef, I didn't mean it any way. I think there's, uh-

10:30 Speaker 2 It's what keeps you-

10:30 Speaker 1 There's what happened this day, there's what happened this day, there's what happened-

10:32 Speaker 2 It's what keeps you up at night, but oh, well.

10:35 Speaker 1 No, what I will say is that I think that even though the Rebbe moved away, the Rebbe's farbrengens was much more than ma'amarim.

10:42 Speaker 2 Right.

10:43 Speaker 1 But, but, but yeah, what is our identities? I think the question. What is the, what is the identity of Lubavitcher Chasid and we're not chasidim chassidus?

10:54 Speaker 2 Yeah.

10:55 Speaker 1 Not, not because of Avoda, just because if you go into a Lubavitcher shul, when was the last time you heard a ma'amar chassidus being, being said?

11:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. So what, what I would say as an answer to your question is a different question, or in my view, like, ta- like, I think I, I c- I'm not trying to be difficult, but the only way I know to answer this question is to a- is to think about another question, um, which is what, what does a... How does, how does it work to be a chasid in Derech Shvi? And what I'm... So what's the, what's the difference Derech Shvi and an- an- an- another time? I do feel that it's, it's pretty obvious that in previous days, it was pretty specific what it meant to... Like, from the, from the Rebbeim, it was pretty clear what it meant to be a chasid, right? Uh, not that they had easy lives, but, like, the focus was pretty specific, right? Um, yes, th- the identities of the chasidim I think were a lot more colorful and, and, and, and layered then, than we assume today. They weren't all the same. They weren't a monolith. But, you know, once Lubavitcher... Like, what it means to be a chasid is pretty, is pretty straightforward. Um, the Rebbe demanded Opposites. He said this, I'm not saying this. The Rebbe also spoke that other Bem, uh, the famous thing of hanachas atsmusa, the only way a bachur in yeshiva can handle the compulsory and the learning and the different learning, the different topics, um, meftayim hanachas atsmusa, shmiras has deur. Right? And so, you know, you could say the answer

12:33 Speaker 2 is hanachas atsmusa, but hanachas atsmusa is, is a, is a demand, is an ultimate demand, and it's an acceptance that we're dealing with im- with, with opposites and, and impossibilities. And we're demanding not the utmost from people, we're demanding more than the utmost. We're demanding contradictions from people. And so you say, what's Lubavitch identity today? Well, you first have to ask a question of what does it mean to be a Hasid when in a way to be a Hasid is impossible? And I feel that-

13:01 Speaker 1 Why do you say impossible?

13:03 Speaker 2 I say impossible because the Rebbe's, the Rebbe is demanding something that is impossible. So, so if, if, if you, if you, if-

13:14 Speaker 1 Why do you say he's demanding something that's impossible? What's the impossible there?

13:19 Speaker 2 The... Logically impossible, I should say. To say what I mean-

13:23 Speaker 1 Put words to it

13:24 Speaker 2 ... learning shlichus, chasidus, meftayim. Now, on some level, these all things all come to, they all come from the Aibishter. Right? But in the day-to-day, uh, the Rebbe would, Rebbe would say, "Look, you have to go meftayim, but only outside Shtarim. You have to be into meftayim, but you also have to be, you know, a bachur should be baki bashas." At some point, the, the, the hours of the day get taken up. You have to learn Gemara and Chasidus and Kochin learning, but also Rambam and Chitas. Also this, also that. Okay. Even if you are amazing at time management at the age of 18 years old, and, and ple- like, we're talking about in the world at large, the percentage of people with good time management at that age is what? Three percent maybe. Lubavitch, I think it's lower than three percent, but even if you wanna be super charitable, it's three percent. It's not. But let's say we're teenagers. Deal with teenagers, right? And like, like Lubavitch teenagers do not have a model outside of the Rebbe. Like, the Lubavitch lifestyle is not one of meticulous time management. We're not Yekkes. We show up late to things. We, we don't wake up early. Like, let's be real. Okay? So you take a bunch of people who are not great at time management and tell them that you have to live a life of meticulous, not shmiras has deur, and, and go from one opposite to the other. Right? Chasidus, davening, Gemara, Halakha, boom, boom,

14:50 Speaker 2 boom, half hour Halakha, half hour this, that. Okay. Meftayim, in the world, out the world, back. This is if it wasn't something that we accepted as what God wants, we'd say, "This is crazy. This is impossible."

15:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. The Aibishter is in the impossible.

15:10 Speaker 2 Right. So that's what I'm saying.

15:11 Speaker 1 I remember a farbrengen-

15:12 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying, no

15:13 Speaker 1 ... I remember a farbrengen with, uh... But that's not a question of, of, uh... I'll tell you what I'm saying. I remember a farbrengen with Rich Meir Kagan years ago speaking about, uh, the Seder of Simchas Torah by the Rebbe.

15:23 Speaker 2 Right.

15:24 Speaker 1 Um, the farbrengens, the hakafas, the going into Halakha, and he's describing how it doesn't stop, right? Then he starts speaking about all the shirim you're supposed to be doing. Chitas, Rambam, Ma'a-seder, Ma'a-seder, farbreishias as well. I mean... And at one point he's like, "How do you do all this?"

15:41 Speaker 2 Right.

15:41 Speaker 1 And he was like, just, you know, Rabbi Kagan in his way was like crying. The Rebbe

15:47 Speaker 2 Right.

15:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. And he was speaking about it then, you know. I, I, uh...

15:51 Speaker 2 But, but at the same time, but what does that mean? Well, one second, one second, one second. That's a beautiful word and like, if you... You know, I didn't meet Rabbi Kagan, but he sounds like a very geschmack Yid. And so, you know, you're saying at a farbrengen and he's crying and there's a f- you know, you're a little bit, uh, tipsy-

16:06 Speaker 1 It was 11:00, they could cry

16:07 Speaker 2 ... you're a little bit, you're a little bit t- dizzy like, like I said, and you know, and it, it... That, that feels good. Feels good. Okay. But, but now unpack it.

16:14 Speaker 1 So I'll unpack it.

16:15 Speaker 2 What does that, what does it... Well, yeah, what does that mean?

16:17 Speaker 1 So I had this experience-

16:18 Speaker 2 What does it mean to demand impossible?

16:20 Speaker 1 So I had this experience this, this, uh, past Friday morning, and I don't wanna get into all the details. I had Baruch Hashem an einikel.

16:26 Speaker 2 Mazel tov. Mazel tov.

16:28 Speaker 1 Um, and so basically my, my, uh, daughter having the baby was in New York, and it's happening through the night into the day, and as I'm waking up, I'm on shlichus here by myself. My wife's not in town, and, uh, I'm-

16:41 Speaker 2 You weren't useful there.

16:42 Speaker 1 What?

16:42 Speaker 2 You weren't useful at the delivery.

16:44 Speaker 1 No, there I wasn't useful. And the shalch manas to give out, there's a Purim program to make, there's a farbrengen to have. There's, there's d- there was different things in the community that had to happen. And I woke up in the morning to try to find like an update, like what's happening with the baby, and I hear it's, uh, whatever, it's gonna take time.

17:00 Speaker 2 Right.

17:00 Speaker 1 And it's what... And I couldn't fall back asleep. It's 6:00 in the morning, and I just slept for an hour or two. It wasn't like... And I'm like... And, and I'm up already, and I'm like, "What am I doing today?" And as I'm thinking how my day is gonna actually happen, I realize that I'm already holding by Adolayada. I'm already Purim Adolayada. It's Purim, right?

17:23 Speaker 2 'Cause you don't know what, which way it's gonna go.

17:25 Speaker 1 I don't know what I'm gonna do.

17:26 Speaker 2 It might be a Zay day, it might-

17:27 Speaker 1 No, I, I don't know how I'm gonna, how I'm gonna give out my shalch manas today.

17:30 Speaker 2 Right.

17:30 Speaker 1 I don't know what point, at what time I'll do it.

17:33 Speaker 2 Right.

17:33 Speaker 1 Uh, one of my kids hurt themselves. I was at a svara. I had to go to the hospital that day. It was just total confusion.

17:37 Speaker 2 Total chaos.

17:38 Speaker 1 Chaos. And I was like, "I feel like a soldier on the front line, who all I'm gonna do today is whatever my instinct says to do."

17:45 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:45 Speaker 1 "And that's what's gonna be right." Right?

17:48 Speaker 2 Is it?

17:49 Speaker 1 It, it'll end up being that way. In other words-

17:51 Speaker 2 I don't-

17:51 Speaker 1 ... what does a soldier think on the front line?

17:53 Speaker 2 Um, soldiers get, get hit by bullets.

17:55 Speaker 1 Well, they follow their instinct.

17:56 Speaker 2 They follow orders.

17:58 Speaker 1 Well, when-

17:59 Speaker 2 You're say- you're saying when things go, when things go chaotic.

18:01 Speaker 1 When things are going-

18:02 Speaker 2 Right

18:02 Speaker 1 ... they're on the front line. You got your order. You gotta go to this place. How do you do it? A lot of times-

18:06 Speaker 2 Right

18:06 Speaker 1 ... for a soldier, it's your training and what you've gone through in, in your previous training that you know exact.

18:12 Speaker 2 Right.

18:12 Speaker 1 An Israeli soldier, an American soldier is not going to die in the line of fire, but they walk into the line of fire-

18:17 Speaker 2 Right

18:17 Speaker 1 ... because they have training. They know how to work. They have their instincts. They tell them what's right. They make decisions. And what's gonna be the right decision? The one that you do.

18:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

18:24 Speaker 1 And I realized when the Rebbe would speak about

18:30 Speaker 2 Yeah.

18:30 Speaker 1 The Rebbe lived ad lo yada his whole life. What does it mean ad lo yada his whole life? That means he was pro- in a certain way, maybe never prepared for what the Aibishter was about to hand him. A new person with a problem, a new issue coming up, a new thing and, and what do you do? Whatever is demanded of you at that moment, and based on what decision? It could be just your etzem, just this is what you're gonna do right now.

18:52 Speaker 2 Beautiful.

18:53 Speaker 1 Right? I think that's the, that's the, that's the impossible that, that you're saying is do we keep time? Not sure we keep time, but we do keep time. We're, we're, we're, we're answering to the essence of who we are and when we're in that mode of being a proper shliach or I would say what the Rebbe would say, uh, you know, uh, that k'mo say mamash. Spring is here, which means that in two months many communities will be looking for a way to mark Gimmel Tammuz, the Rebbe's yahrtzeit. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World is a Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvlah Media, inspired by Basse Leigani, the first mimer the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basse Leigani is something that we think about and talk about a lot. And in this production, we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basse Leigani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad Houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the films, original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet, which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To

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20:22 Speaker 2 Can I be cynical though?

20:23 Speaker 1 Go ahead. Say, go.

20:24 Speaker 2 I mean, I mean, I am cynical, but c- can I be cynical over here? I, I think it's a beautiful thing that you're saying. I'm not, like, I'm not discounting it. Uh, you know, this... It's a, it's a beautiful... I-- The-- It's a

20:50 Speaker 1 I mean, I read Compass.

21:10 Speaker 2 No, no. I used to get-

21:10 Speaker 1 You're not a shliach

21:11 Speaker 2 ... I used to, uh, say... Okay. Lav davka. Anyway, so I I, I, I, uh... So there was a, there was an issue, uh, years ago where the cover was a shliach's desk, and there was bills and Sefardim and, and, and an oatmeal and a baby bottle dripping milk and, uh, like a balagan. And, like, it was presented as, like, lashevad, like, you know, or a shliach once told me, "Look, a shliach's schedule's not in his hands. He answers a call, you know. It, uh, uh, it's the morning and I don't know what my day's gonna be like," like, like you just said. And the cynical side of me says, "No, no, this, this is, this isn't, this isn't a, this isn't a good idea." You're right that there are moments of chaos where, where, like, the, the bullets are flying and all your, you know, rational thinking and order and schedule goes out the window. You just have to survive and kill the enemy or whatever and fulfill your mission. But that's not a game plan, right? Like, like, m- you know, the, the, the adrenaline is fired up. You're in a completely different zone. If you try to keep that going, you're gonna, you're gonna bust. Like, you're gonna die, period, end of story. Like, that, that, that c- that's a temporary, uh, reaction to a temporary situation. My, my point is that you cannot... Like, that there is a seudat Aharon in life. Ad lo yada every single day, chaos every single

22:35 Speaker 2 day leads to insanity.

22:38 Speaker 1 It's only if you're... I'll put it into words. Yeah, I think if you had a soldier who was not making his bed every morning-

22:44 Speaker 2 Right

22:44 Speaker 1 ... and was getting up late, and in his training was living a, a freilechle life, as they say-

22:49 Speaker 2 Right

22:49 Speaker 1 ... he wouldn't last in the army, and you would never want him on the front lines-

22:53 Speaker 2 Right

22:54 Speaker 1 ... for this exact problem. Uh, I'm not saying is we're all perfect. I'm not saying... What we're talking-- I'm talking here is that you actually do need your Chitas Rambam, your training, and being in a, in a... The more mesuda you are, the more successful you're gonna be. That's nothing to do, but it's because you have that training, is that you could kick into gear and all of a sudden accomplish things that other people can't do or deal with situations that other people can't. And I don't want to say davka other people. Talking about your own avodat Hashem, that all of a sudden you go into cruise control. When we... Cruise, cruise control means your, your nature takes over, and you're going to do all types of things this day, and you're only gonna know what you accomplished at the end of the day. It's almost like the Baal Shem Tov. He doesn't go to sleep-

23:34 Speaker 2 Right

23:34 Speaker 1 ... till everything in his house is cleared out. Tomorrow's another tog. What's for tzayn? It'll be figured out that day. The Aibishter is gonna give you your melacha. But if you're, if you're prashut, uh, just, uh, not mesuda or anything, then you're not going anywhere and you're not accomplishing anything. That's a whole different... Uh, one is not connected necessarily with the other. Ad lo yada here is not being builtis seider.

23:56 Speaker 2 Right.

23:56 Speaker 1 Ad lo yada is that your etzem of your training as a bachur in yeshiva, as a shliach of the Rebbe with your upbringing and your whole mahus could show up and lead you through a day of avodat Hashem without being able to, to, to, to go through that all, even though there may be stirus bedavra, you don't know how, and there was so much to get done and everything, and you're gonna make a massive difference in the world that day.

24:23 Speaker 2 So you're talking about kabbalat ol and an achzat smuseh. That's what you're talking about. That, that's the answer you're giving.

24:28 Speaker 1 But it's deeper than that.

24:29 Speaker 2 You're, you're, you're-

24:29 Speaker 1 'Cause an achzat smuseh very often means, "I don't think."

24:32 Speaker 2 I understand. You're, you're, you're teaching an achzat smuseh not as being a robot, but as, but as, but as c- as, as stripping down all the thinking to instincts and to, and to th- what's deeper in you. Not, not more superficial in you, but what's deeper in you.

24:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:48 Speaker 2 Yes.

24:48 Speaker 1 So like you're a commando in the army that could do almost anything because of your training, and you naturally will react to things properly.

24:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay. F-fi-fine. I mean-

24:57 Speaker 1 Now, how often do we get that in our lives?

24:59 Speaker 2 So that's what I'm-

25:00 Speaker 1 If I experience it only purim, I'm happy

25:01 Speaker 2 ... so, so, so, so that's my point. That's, that's my point. That's my point, is that even the answer asks a deeper question. Right? I mean, uh, like what you're talking about here, like it reminds me... I don't know if it's true, I, I didn't verify it with family members, but they say that my, my, my Zeyde Bencha would s- would, uh, sometimes daven at the end of the day because he, he wanted his whole day to be with that kind of, uh, um, burden of foreign daven. You know, like, I'm only gonna do it if it, if it justifies pushing off davening. Like, there's that kind of, uh, you know, like, you know-

25:35 Speaker 1 You're making me laugh 'cause I once heard that my Zeyde Hanah Reuven also would daven at the end of the day

25:39 Speaker 2 For the same reason?

25:39 Speaker 1 No, for the reason that he never had a chance to daven

25:41 Speaker 2 'Cause he was busy with the, the Rebbe Zachan

25:44 Speaker 1 To feed the children, do this, do another thing. He was the, the

25:46 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

25:48 Speaker 1 ... took over his day-

25:49 Speaker 2 Right

25:49 Speaker 1 ... to the point that, that, that his davening came when all of a sudden there was no other choice, right?

25:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

25:55 Speaker 1 There, there was nothing. Which again, I, I, it... Yeah, I think there's a certain element and... By the way, I, I wanna go back to this. I think I, I think this is an interesting, uh, you started this off and I don't know if I wanna get so excited so easy, but so early. But can we start getting to some possibility? I think when we talk about this, of being able to live this way, it's a little bit what I call being more Rebbe-like than Chassid-like

26:19 Speaker 2 Oh, that's exactly where I wanna go .

26:20 Speaker 1 Okay.

26:21 Speaker 2 That's exactly where I wanna go. That's my point

26:23 Speaker 1 When we talk about a-a-adolayada and all of a sudden living a life of ... we're talking about a Shliach trying to think of himself to live the way that a Rebbe lived rather than live the way a Chassid lives

26:35 Speaker 2 That's my point

26:36 Speaker 1 And you might say it's impossible, but the Rebbe demanded this of us the entire, uh, Nasius, and I would say at the end even more so. We could get into that in more detail. Um, but it brings up something which, again, I'm just gonna blow this up for no reason. I, I just, I'm just having fun with you

26:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, let's have fun

26:54 Speaker 1 Let's have fun. Uh, it's one of the reasons why, uh, I should say this, I've always been triggered by this, that the term Derushvi bothers me

27:03 Speaker 2 You weren't always triggered by it 'cause triggered didn't exist until 10 years ago, but

27:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, but you know what the feeling is in my heart. The term Derushvi bothers me, and the reason why the term Derushvi bothers me is because, is because to me it means people just trying to hold on to the past and not thinking what does it really mean to be a Chassid today?

27:26 Speaker 2 You're saying Derushvi after Gimel Tammuz-

27:28 Speaker 1 Correct

27:28 Speaker 2 ... bothers you. Okay.

27:29 Speaker 1 Correct. Now, I don't know if we're Derushvi, not Derushvi. It makes no difference to me. In other words, what I mean to say is I don't... These semantics don't bother me.

27:35 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

27:36 Speaker 1 I think the Rebbe wanted Mashiach, the Rebbe wanted Mashiach to come, the Rebbe wanted us to be a

27:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

27:39 Speaker 1 ... wanted us to bring Mashiach. Th- these slogans that we put on-

27:44 Speaker 2 Uh, I agree

27:44 Speaker 1 ... I, I don't know what they mean. The Rebbe never really told it to us in any way that it's like some type of-

27:48 Speaker 2 There were seven Re- there were seven Rebbeim and there were seven Deres, end of story. You know, like I, I, I... And then Dere passed away, and so that ended that, that, the, the Deres of Tanoim, that Deres of Am Yisroel, then the end

28:00 Speaker 1 Correct.

28:01 Speaker 2 That's all I said

28:01 Speaker 1 And then what happens? So then the Dara goes on forever? I mean-

28:04 Speaker 2 No, no, no, no. It doesn't

28:06 Speaker 1 So if you wanna say yes, yes.

28:06 Speaker 2 No, it's, it's not-

28:07 Speaker 1 If you wanna say no, no

28:08 Speaker 2 ... but it's not Der- it's, it's not Dershimini. It's, it's the, the Deres were the Rebbeim. They built, they built their thing and then-

28:14 Speaker 1 Fine. So I, look, I, I-

28:15 Speaker 2 It doesn't bother me

28:16 Speaker 1 ... I don't wanna get into the philosophy of-

28:17 Speaker 2 Yeah

28:17 Speaker 1 ... this whole thing. That's a whole different discussion, and, and the Rayes from this stuff. I'm getting into a whole different issue. There's this element of we're trying to hold onto the past

28:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. We're stuck in time

28:29 Speaker 1 We're stuck

28:30 Speaker 2 Yeah

28:30 Speaker 1 Derushvi, because Mashiach didn't come the way we feel the Rebbe envisioned it in his first Maamar, whether we reading it correctly or not-

28:40 Speaker 2 No, many subsequent talks as well. It wasn't just a Maamar

28:43 Speaker 1 Of what?

28:44 Speaker 2 The Rebbe said Mashiach's coming now and he's-

28:46 Speaker 1 No, no, no, but there has to be Dafke and Derushvi-

28:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh

28:48 Speaker 1 ... and nothing else, and we have to read the Maamar Dafke-

28:50 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah

28:50 Speaker 1 ... to mean it that way.

28:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

28:51 Speaker 1 Which again, I, I could question that, and if somebody wants to talk to me in their free time, I could. What I'm saying is-

28:56 Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I agree with you that it's a, it's a lot more ambiguous than people make it to-

28:59 Speaker 1 Okay. So it's not 100% clear. The Rebbe's talking about bringing Shechinah L'maalah, that the Rebbe does say.

29:04 Speaker 2 100%, 100%.

29:05 Speaker 1 Shechinah L'maalah-

29:05 Speaker 2 Venizke zenzich is, is different than saying it's for sure going to happen. There's a word Venizke there

29:10 Speaker 1 Right. Venizke zenzich also, if you look in the, in the, in the, in the, in the footnote, it's about Rebbe coming to make Kiddush for his family . So I'm saying is that, yes, it's very ambiguous and that's not the, the, the, the, the point I wanna make. The point I do wanna make is, is that the Rebbe, when he did call for Derushvi, he actually was making a change from before

29:34 Speaker 2 Right

29:34 Speaker 1 That means the Rebbe should have said we're still in Derushishi

29:36 Speaker 2 Right

29:37 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe right away took the Histalkus to mean new mission, new thing, we have something to do

29:43 Speaker 2 Right

29:43 Speaker 1 We've gotta make it happen. We've gotta figure this out, and we've gotta make it happen

29:46 Speaker 2 Right

29:47 Speaker 1 And we use Derushvi to say the exact opposite

29:51 Speaker 2 Yes, we do

29:53 Speaker 1 We're still stuck. It's the same. Nothing's changing. Is it?

29:57 Speaker 2 Well, well-

29:57 Speaker 1 I would say Gimel Tammuz one of the biggest changes in Lubavitch history

30:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're in Pittsburgh with, with Rabbi Rubin, so it's a rupture for sure. Rupture

30:06 Speaker 1 A rupture

30:07 Speaker 2 It's for sure a rupture

30:08 Speaker 1 Tzimtzum Hagadol

30:09 Speaker 2 Yeah

30:10 Speaker 1 And just to tell me that we're just... it's all the same

30:13 Speaker 2 Yeah

30:13 Speaker 1 I was a bachur and I mean, I was 18 years old, Gimel Tammuz, so I lived through that, my bachur years-

30:18 Speaker 2 In Detroit?

30:19 Speaker 1 No, I was in Ohel Torah and in New York during, you know, days... Nun Gimel Elul I was in New York

30:24 Speaker 2 Oh, you moved to-

30:25 Speaker 1 I was in Zau then

30:25 Speaker 2 ... New York after Chozah Nadal, like to be there or that was planned?

30:27 Speaker 1 So, no, no, no. So Nun Dal- Nun Beis was my last year in Mesivta

30:31 Speaker 2 Okay

30:31 Speaker 1 Nun Beis

30:31 Speaker 2 In Detroit

30:32 Speaker 1 In Detroit. And then Nun Gimel Elul I was already in, in, uh, I was a year and a half in Ohel Torah-

30:37 Speaker 2 And you're sched- you're scheduled to be on Ohel Torah

30:38 Speaker 1 ... and a half a year I was in Montreal during that period

30:42 Speaker 2 So you're, you're Moshe Guerer's age, about

30:43 Speaker 1 I'm two years older

30:44 Speaker 2 Right. Okay

30:44 Speaker 1 I'm a class older than him

30:45 Speaker 2 Yeah, I had him on the pod. Yeah.

30:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:46 Speaker 2 Okay

30:47 Speaker 1 Yes. So my Zau years-

30:50 Speaker 2 Wait, so but you were in Detroit when Chozah Nadal happened

30:52 Speaker 1 Correct

30:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, so he was ta- yeah, I was talking about what it was like then, yeah

30:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. So he was a class younger than me

30:57 Speaker 2 Right

30:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. But, but then the years of Nun Gimel Elul-

31:00 Speaker 2 I mean, that, that must have been very rough for you. I mean, it was rough for everybody, but like you're about to go, you're about to get

31:07 Speaker 1 A taste

31:07 Speaker 2 Correct. Yeah, I remember this

31:09 Speaker 1 And it gets complete- completely ripped out from under you

31:11 Speaker 2 It reminded me of a farbrengen that I speak about that, uh, uh, we, uh, in Detroit in camp, so Tav Shonun Beis, Tav Shonun, Tav Shonun Beis, right?

31:21 Speaker 1 The summer

31:21 Speaker 2 Summer

31:21 Speaker 1 Su-sum-summer after Hoshanah

31:22 Speaker 2 We were thinking, "Should we still go to Ohel Torah or not?"

31:24 Speaker 1 The summer after Hoshanah, they just-

31:25 Speaker 2 Correct

31:25 Speaker 1 ... put it, yeah

31:26 Speaker 2 And we were thinking, "Should we go maybe to Manchester or stay in Ohel Torah?"

31:29 Speaker 1 It's too painful. You're saying it's too painful

31:30 Speaker 2 No, 'cause we weren't gonna learn a word

31:32 Speaker 1 You knew you were going into, like, utter chaos

31:35 Speaker 2 Yeah. At that point, the Rebbe had come out on Shavuot-

31:37 Speaker 1 Right

31:38 Speaker 2 ... if you remember this

31:39 Speaker 1 I wasn't there, but I've heard of it

31:40 Speaker 2 And, and it was, it was like a-

31:40 Speaker 1 No, I'm much younger than you

31:41 Speaker 2 ... it was a traumatic experience, I understand-

31:43 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

31:43 Speaker 2 ... for most people

31:44 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:44 Speaker 2 And so the Rebbe didn't come back in-

31:45 Speaker 1 That was the first time, that was the first... It was at the front door of 770, right?

31:48 Speaker 2 Correct

31:48 Speaker 1 And it's the first time they saw him after

31:49 Speaker 2 Correct

31:50 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:50 Speaker 2 And-

31:50 Speaker 1 And it wasn't what they had anticipated

31:52 Speaker 2 Correct

31:52 Speaker 1 And also what, what, let's be honest, what they hadn't been, they hadn't been told what they were about to see

31:56 Speaker 2 Correct

31:57 Speaker 1 Right.

31:57 Speaker 2 Correct. And so the I'm not, I'm not asking to, like, should've, could've, but, like, do you think he was right?

33:18 Speaker 1 I don't know. Right or wrong, I think that it, that, that it made... A-as, as I, uh, when, when, when I speak with my friends, my, most people, their years of zal, for the years before, for the bochurim before me, it was their first time they were by the Rebbe's farbrengens, and they got to, you know-

33:33 Speaker 2 Okay

33:33 Speaker 1 ... experience the Rebbe's farbrengens and hear Torah, et cetera, from the Rebbe, and live with the Rebbe in that way. Um, for others, you could say zal was they went to a yeshiva, and they sat and learned Torah. For us, our, my first two years of zal was Pasht living the gashmiyus with the Rebbe for two years

33:52 Speaker 2 And with the Rebbe is, like, health

33:53 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. That's what we lived with. That's what, in my experience-

33:57 Speaker 2 You, you didn't learn much

33:58 Speaker 1 We learned in our free time a lot

33:59 Speaker 2 You did?

34:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. We-

34:00 Speaker 2 What, what's you have free time when you weren't at the hospital?

34:02 Speaker 1 In other words, we were learning things like Sefer Haidesh and things like that, that I was learning a lot-

34:06 Speaker 2 But there was no shtar. There's no writing

34:06 Speaker 1 There was in Ohel Torah there was

34:07 Speaker 2 But there was shtar

34:08 Speaker 1 I'm not gonna say that, that, you know... For me, it was very difficult years because when you're farbrengen and, and y-your life is upside down, you don't really come to seder that well

34:16 Speaker 2 Uh, w-well, I mean, upside down 'cause there was a siren, and you run to 770 or-

34:19 Speaker 1 No. No

34:20 Speaker 2 ... or just, just uncertainty

34:20 Speaker 1 I think just emotional rollercoaster

34:21 Speaker 2 Uncertainty

34:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. I also think maybe now that I opened up the zal now-

34:24 Speaker 2 You're saying-

34:25 Speaker 1 I think it's the age also

34:26 Speaker 2 Yeah

34:26 Speaker 1 The age of first two years of zal is a very-

34:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's hard enough to take a teenager and, and get him in get him to change that chair out

34:33 Speaker 1 That jacket. It's a tough-

34:34 Speaker 2 Yeah

34:34 Speaker 1 ... it's a tough few years

34:35 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah

34:36 Speaker 1 But with everything going on, you know, then it was mischasdim and this. There was a lot of... There, there was a-

34:40 Speaker 2 That's it. What, what, oh, you're saying, oh, you're saying the, the original kind of... Okay

34:45 Speaker 1 All those things were going, and I came from Detroit-

34:47 Speaker 2 I mean, everyone was

34:47 Speaker 1 ... so I'm an outcast

34:48 Speaker 2 Wasn't everyone mischasdim at that time?

34:50 Speaker 1 Except a f- except a class of mine who just came from Detroit-

34:52 Speaker 2 Oh, you guys were al-

34:53 Speaker 1 ... and learned in Ohel Torah

34:53 Speaker 2 ... you guys were already antis

34:55 Speaker 1 I w- Yes, I would say this.

34:57 Speaker 2 Oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh

34:57 Speaker 1 We used to have farbrengens with, with, with your grandfather and with my, and your uncle, you know-

35:01 Speaker 2 You're like the, like the only two-

35:02 Speaker 1 ... and Tasha Kvillen would go out

35:03 Speaker 2 ... the only two antis, and Sh- whatever, the Shapiros like to, you know, that, that Shapiro family likes to protest that they were also anti, but okay

35:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. You have to realize also-

35:11 Speaker 2 So it was like four, it was like five people

35:13 Speaker 1 Yeah, but also my family. I b- I'm, I was a Friedman-

35:15 Speaker 2 Other Friedmans

35:16 Speaker 1 ... and one of my uncles is married to a Krinsky. We were, we were, you know-

35:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

35:19 Speaker 1 ... we were involved in what was going on a little bit

35:21 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

35:21 Speaker 1 Actually, for me, it was one of the hard things 'cause on the other hand, I had my grandfather was a Marozov, who-

35:26 Speaker 2 Right. He went the other way

35:27 Speaker 1 Correct. It, it, it was, it was a tough time

35:28 Speaker 2 Men- oh, Men- Mendel is your grandfather

35:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

35:30 Speaker 2 Yeah

35:30 Speaker 1 It was a, it was a tough time for me as a bochur, as, as a-

35:33 Speaker 2 Yeah

35:33 Speaker 1 ... and all this turmoil

35:35 Speaker 2 Right

35:36 Speaker 1 It just, it didn't, it didn't... It wasn't good for me to get up in the morning and to, and to, and to, and to learn regular shtar. I mean, not like I didn't learn-

35:43 Speaker 2 So was it worth it to save Kirschman at the Rebbe's room?

35:46 Speaker 1 Again, it's what shaped me. I'm not sh- I'm not looking back-

35:48 Speaker 2 It is what it is

35:49 Speaker 1 ... I'm not... Exactly. I'm not looking back-

35:50 Speaker 2 You don't-

35:50 Speaker 1 ... and saying I should've done something else. No

35:52 Speaker 2 You don't look back with regret

35:53 Speaker 1 No

35:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

35:54 Speaker 1 No. Not at all. I think there's an experience of I was there every time the Rebbe came out on the porch-

36:02 Speaker 2 Right

36:02 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and, and lived that and, and was there. There, there's, there's... It's part of your identity, you know? It's part of your being involved in that and, and being... There was a certain... And I say even afterwards, even with the time when the Rebbe went to the hospital later, there, there was experiences of you felt the, the, the, the closeness to the Rebbe and the shaping of what was going on and as a, as, of the shaping of Chabad-

36:28 Speaker 2 Right

36:28 Speaker 1 ... that was happening at that time. Let's, let's be honest. Chabad, in those five, six years, and I would say really in that two-year period, shaped Chabad as we s- it, it's like the seeds that made all these different directions that Chabad goes in today

36:45 Speaker 2 Hmm

36:45 Speaker 1 A lot of it happened at that time, you know?

36:47 Speaker 2 Yeah

36:47 Speaker 1 And, and-

36:48 Speaker 2 It cer- it certainly, the fragmentation, uh, accelerated then. I mean, you were there, I wasn't. But the way I, the way I read it is that, like, the fragmenta- like, something was, something that was holding everything together broke, right? And, and people, people, people started... The splintering started, and it's-

37:06 Speaker 1 I think the splintering started openly

37:09 Speaker 2 Right. No, it's-

37:09 Speaker 1 There was already frictions before

37:10 Speaker 2 ... Oh, it was well before. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's my, that's, uh... I mean, that's one of my main, like, positions on, on this podcast, which I, I, I don't, I don't understand how it's even debatable, but I guess it's always how people think when they think they're right. That, like, this idea that Lubavitch changed, like, the... What we're dealing with now is all post-Gimel Tammuz. What, what are you talk- Like, post-Gimel Tammuz didn't happen in a vacuum. Yes, that was a massive game changer event, but, like, the results that happened after d- like, they can't all be attributed to Gimel Tammuz. The way people reacted to it and dealt with it in the different ways tells you that something was going on before, and it doesn't take much digging into the nuns and the mems to realize that something wa- something was afoot well before Gimel Tammuz, and something was already, uh, probably even before the mems, but certainly was at the surface in the mems.

38:00 Speaker 1 Right. But I think that that's why I think as a kid and going through that time, et cetera, y- you, you, you know, when the Rebbe says, you know, who, who was it? Was it your grandfather? That, uh, the, as, "Zos vis ner from Lubavitch." What was the, the, the term?

38:16 Speaker 2 Oh, he wanted his kids to know. No, I, I've heard the story. Yeah.

38:19 Speaker 1 A ner from Lubavitch. So there's this element of the Bochurim, you know, my group of friends and the guys who were older than me that were still Bochurim.

38:28 Speaker 2 Did the Rebbe said that to my grandfather or he said it to you guys?

38:29 Speaker 1 I don't remember. It's just mentioned in a sicha the Rebbe says it-

38:31 Speaker 2 Right

38:31 Speaker 1 ... or somebody said this.

38:33 Speaker 2 Right.

38:33 Speaker 1 But what I'm saying is, is that th- these guys, and all of us, I would say, at, at that point, there was total dedication to the Rebbe and the Rebbe's inyanim and to the furtherance of the Rebbe's inyanim.

38:46 Speaker 2 Right.

38:48 Speaker 1 And I think that for us, and this is where I'm really getting to, is that right afterwards it became a discussion of what does it mean? What does it mean? What is it? Where are we going? What is this? Like, we just went through a tzimtzum. We went through the rupture as we just used the term before.

39:02 Speaker 2 So you said earlier that that means that you're, you're, you're, you're more the... You're not so much a Hasid, you're, you're doing a Rebbe's shliach avoda.

39:10 Speaker 1 I said that, yes, that I think as I'm here today, I think that one of the things that we have to look at ourselves and realize the Rebbe wanted when you're talking about the idea of shlichus, shlichus means shlichus Chabad nikmasi.

39:22 Speaker 2 Right.

39:22 Speaker 1 The Rebbe wanted us... When you talk about the idea of the Rebbe saying, you know, "Tut altfas a kent."

39:29 Speaker 2 Right.

39:29 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe's saying, "Each one of you." What is the Rebbe really saying? The Rebbe's really saying that it has to be with the pnimius and by your, from your perspective. The Rebbe wants a didan b'tachonim in each of you equally to me. I think it's one of the themes that, you know-

39:45 Speaker 2 But don't you see how... That, that was my original point. Don't you see how asking Hasidim to do something that's traditionally expected of the Rebbe, w- I, I don't think the Rebbe was expecting them to become Rebbeim, but asking them to transcend what being a Hasid always meant is at the very least setting things up for there to be a massive fragmentation of identity. Because you're, you... There's, I mean, there's a reason why there are norms. There's a reason why, why there, why peop- why very often leaders will ask people for something that's more midat ha'gbala because you are, like, otherwise you're breaking the system. Right?

40:30 Speaker 1 But I don't think the Rebbe was looking for a system.

40:32 Speaker 2 Right. That's my point. That's my point. Th- like, you cannot talk about the identity of Lubavitch without first unpacking what did the Rebbe look... What did th- wh- what was, what was the Rebbe looking for in the identity of a Hasid? What was he demanding? What did he expect? How much of it is, how much of it is, uh, expectable on a, on a rational, you know, our level kind of thinking? Like, we cannot have this conversation about Lubavitch identity if we refuse to take a s- to go a step back and say, "Wait a second, the Rebbe changed the calculus entirely." That's what I... That, that, I'm, you know, so I don't-

41:10 Speaker 1 I don't think there's a question about that.

41:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, I don't think it's a controversial statement, but, like, a lot of times people will be like, "What does it mean to be a Lubavitcher today?" And it's like, wait a second. In the past, a Hasid was supposed to be a Hasid, and it was pretty straightforward what he was supposed to be. Like I said earlier, I think the Rebbe demanded the impossible, right? He demanded the impossible, and he believed that people were capable of it. But what, what, what the Rebbe says and what the Rebbe believes doesn't transfer to me automatically because I'm a Lubavitcher. It... I could maybe feel that that's true or believe that it's true and hope to reach that, but it doesn't just transfer to me. Because the Rebbe says that I can, you know, eizeh der, ein yide eizeh der chmel likken ay sie, and that's a way to live, doesn't mean that I automatically am compatible with that. If anything, nu farkert, you're not. You have to try to get there. But your, your teva is not to get... You see what I'm saying?

41:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I think that after Gimel Tammuz when the Reshimas came out, so in Reshima of, of, I think it's Shevuos. I think it's Reshima Yud. Um, he speaks there about, um, uh, about Rav or Chaya saying that, uh, that, uh, about when Moshiach will come, right?

42:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

42:22 Speaker 1 In Belachil of LeShlia. So anyway, there it says that, uh, he brings down that, um, that Nashim, that the women are gonna have a greater zechus than the men when Moshiach will come. They'll get greater reward. And so I don't wanna go into the, the, the... But he brings down a pasuk about, uh, I don't remember the exact blush in Nashim Shananis, if you... I don't know if you remember, if you know what I'm... Um, Banis Boitris and Nashim Shananis. It's, it's... And the Rebbe's machalik between Nashim and Banis. And the Rebbe says Nashim, they're a separate matzias from their husband. They are two that get married.

43:00 Speaker 2 Right.

43:00 Speaker 1 But she's promised, and she has, she's batua. She's, she, she's... Shananis means she's, she's very calm that she'll be getting her reward. It's owed to her.

43:11 Speaker 2 Right. So, yeah.

43:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Masham kim Banis de-boitris. The Banis- She's a b- she's beiteach. She believes that she's gonna get-

43:20 Speaker 2 Trust. Trust

43:21 Speaker 1 ... she trusts that she's gonna get her reward.

43:22 Speaker 2 Right. So contract.

43:24 Speaker 1 The difference is she's one and the same of her father, but she's never with her father.

43:30 Speaker 2 Right.

43:30 Speaker 1 She goes to mechakeim with another person, with another man.

43:33 Speaker 2 Right.

43:34 Speaker 1 And she's going to be a, a, a queen somewhere else, and she's gonna bring her father there. And for this-- And when this hashem came up, we were talking about this as Tav Shin Nun Hey, about this difference of, like, before Gmar Tammuz and after Gmar Tammuz. We're speaking about this concept a little bit, but I think it goes back to this though.

43:49 Speaker 2 Well, one second. How did you, how did you talk about it?

43:52 Speaker 1 That after Gmar Tammuz, like, we're a child of the Rebbe. The Rebbe has put his atmos- his atmos into you. You see this sto- you see this, you see this concept in, uh, L'maasha in the, in the Chetevus Maamarim, um, especially from, uh, Tav Shin, Tav Shin Mem Tes maybe it is. The maamar about, uh, about, uh, uh, Samech Gimmel Tefillah.

44:15 Speaker 2 Right.

44:15 Speaker 1 Where he says that Yosef puts the g'viyah b'amtachas Binyamin, and there he speaks that that's the ruchade'shavet b'gaveh which is the same term that's used in Siman Chof Zayin in Tanya about ruchade'shavet b'gaveh with regard to a, the, the Chassid having part of the ruach of the, of the Rebbe. Th-this, these, this theme of the Rebbe-

44:33 Speaker 2 Well, one second. It sounds like you're, you're, you're covering up... You're, you're skipping over something.

44:37 Speaker 1 What am I skipping over?

44:38 Speaker 2 You're, you're talking about after Gmar Tammuz that the daughters, that you've, that this idea of trust and, and, like, in-inherent, like, unbreakable connection with a, of the daughter with the father.

44:48 Speaker 1 You're one instead of two.

44:50 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand.

44:50 Speaker 1 That was-

44:50 Speaker 2 I understand but what, what-

44:51 Speaker 1 The Rebbe lives in you rather than you.

44:52 Speaker 2 But why did you feel that you used to be the other one? Well, did you feel that a contract was broken or?

44:57 Speaker 1 No. No, no, no. It was the feeling of... And, and by the way, I look back at it-

45:03 Speaker 2 Like before Gmar Tammuz was the other one?

45:06 Speaker 1 I don't think we were looking at... I think we're just looking at... We were interpreting what does the day look like today. What is today? What is our new challenge? What is, what is the meaning of our day today? What does it m- I don't mean the day of that day, the new time, this new era. What is it?

45:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:20 Speaker 1 And you're looking at things and learning it into your, into your, into the, into your time. And what I'm saying is, is that you're sitting here in Nun Hey and we're, we're thinking about why is today different than «ma nishtana halayla hazeh mikkol haleylot»? Like, what is this?

45:34 Speaker 2 Right.

45:35 Speaker 1 And if you look at this and take Siman Chof Zayin in Tanya, at least the way I understand it today, that you say that before the histalkus of a tzadik, the way you had Emunah and his Ava and his Yira was being in his presence.

45:49 Speaker 2 Right.

45:50 Speaker 1 Right?

45:50 Speaker 2 Right.

45:52 Speaker 1 And then what about today? The Emunah and the Aven, the Yira is supposed to be of you. It's supposed to be within you.

46:02 Speaker 2 Right.

46:03 Speaker 1 What's the change in dynamic? The change in dynamic is before, and this is the way I'll say it. Before, if you wanted to live with the Rebbe, even though by the Rebbe you find this, even then the Rebbe would say even on Spring is here, which means that in two months many communities will be looking for a way to mark Gmar Tammuz, the Rebbe's yarzeit. If you're looking for an event that is memorable, meaningful, and affordable, let me recommend This World Is A Garden, a film and live concert production created by us here at Uvla Media, inspired by Basse Legani, the first maimar the Rebbe said. If you're a regular here at HFL, you know that Basse Legani is something that we think about and talk about a lot, and in this production we use the power of cinematic filmmaking and a live concert by a string quartet to bring the beauty of Basse Legani to your community and your audience in a way that they've never seen, heard, or experienced it before. The production has already been hosted by Chabad houses around the country and has drawn wonderful reviews. Our package comes with everything that you need to put on the production, the film's original arrangements for string quartet, publicity materials, everything besides the string quartet which we recommend that you hire locally to save on travel costs. To find out more about this production, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Again, thisworldisagarden.com. And now, back to the show. It would be a very poor world if

50:24 Speaker 1 the Rebbe was the same in every person, or if there was only one Hasid that was the only guy that we could... Like, he's, like, it, I, I think, I think I once put it this way. Like, the Rebbe is „lashon yachid." Like, by definition, you can have... There's, in general, there has to be one leader. There has to be one CEO. That's even „beGashmius." But „Ruchnius," also, there has to be one head. Otherwise, otherwise you're going off in different directions. There has to be one Rebbe at a time. But there has to be-- But there's... I mean, I know there has to be, but there's definitely a possibility of there being multiple Hasidim. That's not a ‹stira›, right? So Hasidim is... A-a-and in a way, he understands this, right? Because by definition, no Hasid can ever be a Rebbe. So how, how is, how is, how, how, how are the Hasidim like a, a ‹klei› for the Rebbe? And like in the ‹lashon› of ‹Hayom Yom›, like, how is the Rebbe ‹nishtalent›? 'Cause there are many Hasidim, right? The, the, the, this big Rebbe can, can, can connect with all these Hasidim, and they can all bring out a different element, a different teaching, a different, different resonance, right? That's how it's supposed to work. Instead, we've kind of, uh, whatever, for fear, for whatever reason, um, you know, and I think there are explanations, tendencies that c- that, that make sense. For whatever reason, we say, "No, no. There has to be, like,

51:40 Speaker 1 one definitive... What, what is a Hasid? And one way and one way only, and my way is the highway, and I need certainty, and I can't tolerate something else." It's, like, such a poor, poor, impoverished world to be in.

51:52 Speaker 3 But you realize-

51:52 Speaker 1 It's such an impoverished world to be in. Like, so boring and so miserable. Like, like, there's such a interesting world out there of people who are different than you, and they teach you lessons. Like, this is what, this is what Chassidus talks about, ‹hiskalelus›. We call them ‹lamdei›... I mean, ‹perakeos›, we call them ‹lamdei kalti›. Chassidus talks about ‹hiskalelus›, right? Like, and just, just to, um, turn it back to a little bit what you were saying earlier, like, you know, w-w-what does it say? I forget. I f- I f- like, h- I think the, one of the Rebbe, maybe the Rebbe said about, about ‹Skas Hasidim›, Rebbe, or maybe one of the earlier Rebbeim, that the way to be ‹mekushar› to the Rebbe what passed away is by ‹limud Chassidus› and, and, and ‹dark Chassidus Chassidushe farbrengen›. Like, wait a second. W-w-what is a ‹Chassidushe farbrengen›? Like an Indian schooling that we talk about the Rebbe, which is, of course, how people... Which is, uh, like, I, it, to me, I don't, I don't get it. Like, how does that... It helps you a little bit, but that's not what it is on. No, it's because, like, if, if, if you're on an island all by your own, the chances of survival are grim. Right? If you're going to insist that your way is the only way to exclusion of all else, the chances of survival are grim. So you need to learn the Rebbe's Chassidus because otherwise you have no, you have no, you

53:10 Speaker 1 have no connection, you have no basis of anything. But then you have to open it up to other ideas and other opinions and see where other people stand, 'cause that's the only way you're gonna survive. You're gonna survive. Forget about them.

53:20 Speaker 3 So I wanna speak to ‹hafla› of what we're talking about here a second because, number one, p-people... It's, it's easier to ignore this, but whatever. Go to the ‹Hakkdama› of Tanya, right? What's the Alter Rebbe's problem that he's addressing in the ‹Hakkdama›? His first problem is nobody is supposed to be the same.

53:41 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

53:43 Speaker 3 The whole Tanya is that we could all be different.

53:46 Speaker 1 No, we are different.

53:47 Speaker 3 We are, and we therefore have to find an ‹avodas Hashem› that's different.

53:50 Speaker 1 Right.

53:51 Speaker 3 And the job of the Rebbe or, or Tanya is to allow each one of us to find our own different way.

53:58 Speaker 1 Right.

53:58 Speaker 3 Not the same way.

53:59 Speaker 1 Right. That's what Yechidus was for, exactly.

54:01 Speaker 3 Different.

54:01 Speaker 1 Each person on their own.

54:02 Speaker 3 So the whole Chabad from the very beginning was never about making some type of everybody the same system.

54:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Not at... Right.

54:08 Speaker 3 It was everybody different.

54:09 Speaker 1 Right.

54:10 Speaker 3 That was the whole thing.

54:11 Speaker 1 Yes.

54:11 Speaker 3 Now think about this. As we're all different, the Alter Rebbe is demanding us, of us that if somebody wrongs another person, you should care for him like Yosef and ‹machav›.

54:19 Speaker 1 Right.

54:19 Speaker 3 Yosef, these were all his brothers. Here, we talk about Rebbe ‹kivan›, his Talmudim. Okay, they had-- They were all trying to be the same.

54:26 Speaker 1 Right.

54:26 Speaker 3 They had differences in the way they looked at it. Here, the Alter Rebbe is trying to make us all different.

54:30 Speaker 1 Right.

54:31 Speaker 3 And yet all sit by a farbrengen-

54:33 Speaker 1 Right

54:33 Speaker 3 ... and see not only the Rebbe in yourself, but the Rebbe in somebody else.

54:37 Speaker 1 Right.

54:38 Speaker 3 And be able to respect it and speak to him that way and, and, and, and engage with him that way. And then to treat him like Yosef and ‹machav› even if he did something wrong to you. Why? Because ‹aveichod lekulanu›. There, there, there's a ‹hafla› here that we're not saying is we're all the same, and therefore let's treat each other the same. We're saying we're all different. We should, we should love each other's differences and then have even greater ‹aves Hashem› to each other-

55:04 Speaker 1 Right

55:04 Speaker 3 ... with those differences.

55:06 Speaker 1 Well, but that's the ultimate reality check. Do you love, do you love, in this case, are you connected to the Rebbe or are you connected to yourself? Right? What does it say in ‹Hayom Yom›? What does it say in ‹Hayom Yom›? That, like, if, if you, if you have ‹aves Hashem› and not ‹aves Yisroel›, you probably don't have ‹aves Hashem›. So is that just like some kind of like, uh, you know, like ‹shtech›? No, it's a, it's a reality check. If you think you have ‹aves Hashem›, but, uh, God is bigger than you. So how do you know if what you love is an extension of yourself or something that's truly bigger than you? Well, one way to find out is can you handle and love someone outside of you who pisses you off or, or you think is completely bonkers, right? And the more you tolerate-- not tolerance, the more love you have for different... Not, not for difference for the sake of difference, but for people who have a connection but are difficult for you, the more we, we can believe that you actually love God and not yourself, right?

55:58 Speaker 3 Or as I say, the more you could appreciate somebody else who's different than you is the more Rebbe-like you could become. Right. Okay. So- 'Cause the Rebbe's able to tolerate 600,000 different people. Yeah. Okay. If you could do two, three, we're doing better already. Yeah. Look, I, I have an, I have an instinctive problem with, like, the whole Rebbe-like thing. I, I understand where you're coming from, and because I, 'cause I tense up from it doesn't mean it's wrong. But, um, I, I just feel like, like, like, like, like if the Rebbe's take, and I think he is, way above, infinitely above a regular person, beruch nis. Mm-hmm. So we can't pass that chasm by, by just saying Rebbe-like. So I wanna say something. You see what I'm saying? Like, uh- And you, you spoke, you spoke about how you learn, uh, Torah l'Ikut HaTeyvah. When did I say that? One of the podcasts. Give a share. Oh, with what's his name? With, uh, from YU. I don't know his name, but, uh, that was, uh- Oh, Bashefin? Bashefin, yes. Is he from YU? Yeah, he's from YU. Yeah. So I think in, uh, one of the first Mamarim of Sukkos, maybe it's Shemini Atzeret, but I think it's Sukkos, the, uh, Alter Rebbe starts speaking about how in the time Beis Hamikdash they had the little venessek shiva yamim, right? Right. And they had Mamarim. He goes through all the different things, and now that we don't have it, therefore, right? I don't, I

57:09 Speaker 3 don't remember. That's the way the Mamar begins. I'm not by counting Alter Rebbe l'Ikut Ha... Fine. I didn't claim that, did I? No, I didn't let you say I, I did for a while, but I learn every week, yeah. Yeah. So but that's what he says. You have to find it in yourself. You know, think about it. We're about to go to Pesach. And the night when you read the Haggadah- Right ... how much of the Haggadah is about what happened in the Beis Hamikdash? Um, a little bit. The Korban Pesach. Mention it. Yeah, very little. But most of it is about the seudim that happened right after the Horban. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And all their struggle of, of Right. And if this is even possible. Okay, that's already just to be in the psukim- Right ... but then you have at the end, Rabbi Gamaliel says, "Call me Right. Uh, I see what you're saying. The, the whole... The, the... It, it's a, it's a Galutistic, uh, document, is what you're saying. Yeah, and the whole end of all the pirushim of how many, uh, makkos there were. It's all, it's all in the past. Okay. Yeah. Here we go. No, I'm not saying the past. I'm saying it's our Haggadah. I'm saying it, we're t- we're... It's positioned in Galus, not- Right, but we're, we're talking and celebrating- Right ... seudim that happened in Galus already. Right, right, right, right, right. Right? Megillas Esther is similar, yeah. Okay. What I'm saying is, is

58:24 Speaker 3 that I don't understand. Why aren't we talking about the G- why aren't we talking about the Beis Hamikdash? Right, right, right, right, right. You know, we talk about, and this is, I think, the, the issue that I, that, that, you know, we talk about Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai. He saved Yavne. He made a major change in Yiddishkeit. Right. Instead of it being a Beis Hamikdash, he said, "Right. It's gonna be in a yeshiva. Right. And I'm gonna save the yeshivas. And what happened from it? That we have the whole Torah Shebe'al Peh and everything we have, and even more so, we talk about... One time we were farbrengen with Rabbi, Rabbi Rubin. We were speaking about this, that the whole idea of Rashbi saying, "Man pnei ha'adam d'Rashbi" is only because the Beis Hamikdash was destroyed. Right. That because there's no Beis Hamikdash, now all of a sudden it's reflective in a human being. Would we ever say that there was a Mishkan in a human being, right, if there was still the Beis Hamikdash then? You're romanticizing Galus over here. No, I'm not. Well, the Rebbe also a little bit spoke about the Avodah of Galus and, and, and- Well- What I'm saying is we say, what's like, what's the greatest generation that ever lived in history? Yeah. The Hashmad of Rashbi, which is a little bit mind-boggling because it's the third generation of Galus bechol, right? Right. My point only is, I'm making that up, I'm saying all of this is, is, is

59:38 Speaker 3 that this idea that become Rebbe-like, when we say that we do the things today, Zecher l'Horban, meaning... Ze- sorry, Zecher l'Mikdash, where we take a little venessek shiva yamim- Right ... and we do different things that weren't done, but we're now copying what was in the Beis Hamikdash. Why are we doing it? Right. 'Cause we're saying is that what happened in Beis Hamikdash, now it's to happen in us. Why are we davening three times a day? Right. We're Zecher l'Mikdash. It's Bemakom Tmidim Tiknun. Well, you tell me the Tmidim of the Beis Hamikdash is happening in you? You're taking it... You're saying let's take the words literally. Okay, I hear you. So if you're saying that going from before Yom Kippur is a time of G'lah and you're talking now about a time of Galus and you wanna use that language- Right ... what is the language? The language is now it happens in you. Right. So then become more Rebbe-like. More Rebbe-like means when you sit by a farbrengen, you don't curse somebody out because that's what Hasidim did. A Rebbe would pick somebody up. You also- He would show love. You also don't get shicker. Also. No, I'm serious. Yeah, yeah. I think a shliach just going out and getting shicker and, and, and- Forget about a shliach. Yeah. I'm saying any person who's a responsible person. Right. You're responsible to make a No, not to mention the Rebbe said not to get drunk, but... No, I understand. What I'm saying is that

1:00:49 Speaker 3 all this together, I'm, I'm, I'm not... I'm saying Yeah, yeah. Now, the Rebbe sometimes did drink by a farbrengen, and I'm saying- Yeah, yeah ... if somebody does it in the right way, I'm not here to- Yeah. There was one But I'm, I'm giving, I'm giving o- I'm giving over the- I understand ... the general idea. Are you, are you trying to find the Rebbe somewhere else? Like I have to go to the oil to find the Rebbe. I've gotta go to 770 to find the Rebbe. Well, the place you're gonna find the Rebbe is in your heart with another Jew. I understand what you're saying. Where is it? When the Rebbe spoke to whole Hay-Tavs, and you mentioned it also, "Ein chassid ma'azar b'chaiim af hu b'chaiim." Right. One chassid, the Rebbe left. The Rebbe didn't say, "My books." The Rebbe didn't say, "My institutions." I think this is one of the most amazing things that I think we don't really fully appreciate by the Rebbe. By other Rebbeim, they said, "Ich wol zikh diks ovim." Right. "Ich wol zikh," uh, the Rebbe spoke about in the Chasam, with the n- right? Right. They left different things. What did the Rebbe leave? At least the Rebbe left everything, but what did the Rebbe speak about leaving? Ma'azar b'chaiim, his children. Well- The Rebbe spoke about- Well, you know why. I mean, there's an obvious reason why. Why? Because other Rebbeim had someone after them. But then why'd they say the Svarim? They could've said

1:02:00 Speaker 3 the next Rebbe. No, but they were talking to the Rebbe. The Phi- the Rebbe Shaliach was talking to the Philip Rebbe, "I'm leaving you the ksavim, but you're the Rebbe." I, I hear you

1:02:10 Speaker 1 I, I, I think that, I think that's like, like, like also something that is overlooked. It's like the Rebbe was the first Rebbe talking where if Moshiach wouldn't come, there was no, there was no heir apparent. There, there was no heir, period. And he knew that.

1:02:26 Speaker 3 Right. But, but I'm saying it's something more than that. When the Rebbe tells you how to find out an answer about, uh, his Tadrus-

1:02:31 Speaker 1 But I'm saying, but I'm saying-

1:02:31 Speaker 3 What should you do?

1:02:32 Speaker 1 But I'm saying-

1:02:32 Speaker 3 Rebbe says go-

1:02:33 Speaker 1 But then, but there's no, there's no Rebbe, so, so the only thing that's there is Chassidim. That's it.

1:02:36 Speaker 3 I understand, but who does the Rebbe tell you to go to if you have a problem what you should do in work? What does the Rebbe tell you to do?

1:02:42 Speaker 1 Go to Mashpia.

1:02:43 Speaker 3 No.

1:02:43 Speaker 1 No.

1:02:44 Speaker 3 The Rebbe says, "For Yoni avoid to go to Mashpia, to a Mashpia."

1:02:46 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:46 Speaker 3 "In Yoni his Tadrus go to two Yidden of Yavinim."

1:02:49 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:49 Speaker 3 Who are your two Yidden of Yavinim?

1:02:50 Speaker 1 Right. Do you have two Yidden of Yavin? Yeah.

1:02:52 Speaker 3 Well, you should, I hope.

1:02:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:54 Speaker 3 That's back to the first thing we said. But-

1:02:56 Speaker 1 That's, uh, that's very far Keshes Parshah, but-

1:02:58 Speaker 3 Yeah. But I'm saying is two Yidden of Yavinim. Who are these two Yavinim? Are they like Rebbe-like people? Like, and the Rebbe's telling you, "This is the answer that I'm gonna give you through these two people."

1:03:07 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:09 Speaker 3 You don't even trust them.

1:03:10 Speaker 1 Wait, wait-

1:03:10 Speaker 3 The Rebbe does

1:03:11 Speaker 1 ... he uses those words, "I'm gonna give you an answer through them"?

1:03:13 Speaker 3 Well, the Rebbe's basically saying that if you wanna know what to do and how to get an answer, this is what you should do, right?

1:03:17 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:17 Speaker 3 Three doctors, uh, two Yidden of Yavinim or your Mashpia.

1:03:21 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:03:23 Speaker 3 The Rebbe's just giving us some nice advice-

1:03:24 Speaker 1 So, so, so-

1:03:24 Speaker 3 So the Rebbe's trusting human beings-

1:03:26 Speaker 1 Right

1:03:26 Speaker 3 ... to say, "This is where I'm continuing."

1:03:29 Speaker 1 No, that's what I'm asking. Did the Rebbe use a lotion that I'm going to answer through them or is it this is how Chassidim are going to operate from now on?

1:03:35 Speaker 3 I don't, I, I'm not looking, I'm not-

1:03:36 Speaker 1 It's a big difference. We say there's a big difference here

1:03:38 Speaker 3 I know, but I'm not looking at it right now.

1:03:40 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:40 Speaker 3 I do believe it's that this is the way to get an answer from the Rebbe.

1:03:43 Speaker 1 'Cause with the Mashpiyim, like I, I know that the Rebbe said like that's going, like that's how I want, like, like that's gonna be... But okay, interesting.

1:03:50 Speaker 3 These are the last Farbrengens that were weekday Farbrengens.

1:03:53 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:53 Speaker 3 I read it this way, that look, it's what happened also in the whole story of Rebbe Yehoshua right after the Churban.

1:04:00 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:01 Speaker 3 Torah Lebush Shamaim. He knows he's gonna come and say some Malach or some Navi or some guy told you. The bottom line is it's gonna be decided by three Rabbonim. Which Rabbonim? The ones who live right now.

1:04:10 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:10 Speaker 3 And they're gonna dictate Torah.

1:04:12 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:12 Speaker 3 And they're gonna s- dictate the Eibishter.

1:04:13 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:14 Speaker 3 Nitzchoni Ban- That the Eibishter's gonna say Nitzchoni Banai.

1:04:16 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:17 Speaker 3 And that gives Nachas to the Eibishter. There's a certain love that a father has that his kids actually make him a decision.

1:04:24 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:24 Speaker 3 It doesn't have to be perfect. It has to be that they made a decision and did something special.

1:04:29 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:29 Speaker 3 The, the Rebbe wanting us to become Rebbe-like doesn't necessarily mean in a certain way, in a certain picture, in, in a certain perfection.

1:04:38 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:38 Speaker 3 It means that the Rebbe trusted us to invest himself into us, and that we could each have a Dibba Tachtanim in us.

1:04:48 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:49 Speaker 3 And I th- And, and ultimately, I wish that we would, uh, we would appreciate it ourselves and, and, and appreciate it in others. I would say it that way. Um, but I do think that if you look through all the Sichas and Ma'amarim of such a time, you'll see this type of language.

1:05:02 Speaker 1 "B'seichei l'naamara b'seicham," every Basolei Gani.

1:05:05 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:05:05 Speaker 1 There, there, there is no B'seichei in this world if there's no B'seicham. There's no like Lashon Yachid anymore.

1:05:10 Speaker 3 Right.

1:05:10 Speaker 1 It's not gonna happen.

1:05:11 Speaker 3 I went to ask my Uncle Manis, uh, one of my, my first years after I got married. I asked him if I should put 36 Hadasim into my Lulav.

1:05:19 Speaker 1 Uh, uh-huh.

1:05:20 Speaker 3 So he told him it's, uh, he told me that, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a... He says, "It's your, uh, you should only do 35."

1:05:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, that sounds like, yeah.

1:05:31 Speaker 3 But I still did 36. Why did I do 36? I want my kids to know what the Rebbe's Lulav and Esrog looked like.

1:05:37 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

1:05:39 Speaker 3 Why, why am I not celebrating the Rebbe's Lulav and Esrog? Why are we so scared to, to, to say, "Yeah, the Rebbe lives in our lives"? And we have to bring that out more and more and more.

1:05:49 Speaker 1 Fair.

1:05:50 Speaker 3 And that's, that's our duty here. And it's our duty... And, and this is now going back into... The question is, is, you know, and this is I think the next, uh, the next question of, of this. Do we accomplish this with our children? What are we telling our children? To tell our children that, that there was a Beis Hamikdash, and it was in the past, and I'm just going to... I- is that a, is that a lang- And I'm, I'm not taking this away from the fact that many children are sitting and learning and watching the Farbrengens more than we did. And, and, and in other words, because we just grew up at that time, I was never really at Farbrengens.

1:06:26 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:26 Speaker 3 Farbrengens were on Shabbosim. I was in Mesivta in Detroit already. I never experi-- A kid today could watch Farbrengens every day.

1:06:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:06:32 Speaker 3 And because of the fact that you're doing it with your own free choice-

1:06:36 Speaker 1 I can't

1:06:36 Speaker 3 ... you're Mamish living it.

1:06:37 Speaker 1 I couldn't do it. I was never able to do it.

1:06:40 Speaker 3 I'm saying but-

1:06:40 Speaker 1 There's other Bachur that do it

1:06:41 Speaker 3 ... there are Bachurim who do it, and it's unbelievable. But I'm talking about the, the, the, uh, yeah, the average Bachur, the average person who's growing up in Pittsburgh-

1:06:51 Speaker 1 Right

1:06:51 Speaker 3 ... or in, uh, where are you? Philadelphia?

1:06:52 Speaker 1 I live in Philadelphia.

1:06:53 Speaker 3 In Philadelphia, in, in, in many of these communities. Um, this is back what we, we spoke about before, about what identity, what, what is the identity? What are we teaching them? What are we telling them? What is Chabad today? Where are we going? What is it? Something that was, something that, that... In other words, I'll ask you a question. Uh, an average kid in Philadelphia in the community that you're in, I don't know what, uh-

1:07:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:07:13 Speaker 3 ... um, where are they for the Mashal, uh, a regular Yontif?

1:07:17 Speaker 1 Oh, they're in Philadelphia.

1:07:18 Speaker 3 In Philadelphia.

1:07:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:19 Speaker 3 So Bachurim, they're... So the Israeli Bachurim, Baruch Hashem, I think they all come to 770. They come to the oil. There's like all groups.

1:07:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:25 Speaker 3 And I think there's a lot of other Bachurim in other places who do similar things. But I'm thinking as the average kid growing up in, and, and, and by the way, I think back to the point we said before, how diverse we are.

1:07:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:35 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe made us diverse.

1:07:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:38 Speaker 3 Where, what's the identity that these, that these boys are getting today from the perspective of Chabad, Lubavitch, Rebbe?

1:07:44 Speaker 1 Forget about boys, adults.

1:07:46 Speaker 3 Adults?

1:07:46 Speaker 1 It's interesting, it's interesting. One of the, one of, like, uh, in a way, what kicked off this whole podcast or the idea of this podcast in my mind years before I started it, year, like I was talking about 10 years ago, um, I think, I think it was actually at the home of one of your, your wife's cousins, um, Wolf.

1:08:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:08:04 Speaker 1 Uh, she- they lived in Philadelphia for, she was married to, uh, Hecht, and they lived in Philadelphia for like a year or two. Uh, and we were at Shabbos lunch by them. And there were a few other Lubavitch, uh, families there. And maybe it was a week before Kimat Tamuz, I don't remember. It was already a while ago. And it, the conversation at the table came to, like, what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? And I don't even remember what people answered. Uh, probably obviously, siralsh, lichas, whatever. I thought Semeyonis. It's probab- it wasn't like the answers weren't anything... But what's interesting and what stuck with me was every person had a different answer. I went, "That's interesting." Like, what's going on there? Like, or what's going on here? Like, everybody has a different answer, and you could chalk it up, "Oh, this guy's more Lubavitch, that's..." Okay, irrelevant. Each person feels Lubavitch, and when you ask them what it means to be Lubavitcher, not like how Lubavitch do they act and how much is it, what, what it even means conceptually, everybody has a different answer. So that's already people my age who are not kids growing up. But again, I think, I think the... I understand what you're saying about Rebbe-like. I understand what you're saying, like, Ad Dei, Zecher, Zecher L'Mikdash, and, and the idea of, um, you know, realizing that ultimately it's up to you to, to, to make this work now, and so you have to internalize it, you

1:09:20 Speaker 1 have to embody it on some level, and that that has, you know, that that's how the whole golus Yiddishkeit is, works at all. But at the same time, it's very hard. And, and I, you know, I, I, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think those two things are in tension, where to be a Hasid today is to be Rebbe-like, but then you still be yourself. Because if you're yourself, how are you Rebbe-like? Right? And I think, I think that... So I think that's where, I think that's where the tension is. I'm not saying it's impossible to negotiate. Fekert, what you're say- like, Mazal B'Chaim, Mafu B'Chaim doesn't mean that you become a zarai. Fekert. You are who you are. That's precisely who you're meant to be. You're not going to be someone else. You're never gonna reverse that. Time doesn't reverse, right? You don't become the father. You're the zarai. However, if you are alive with, with whate- with, with something that was given to you from your father, which-

1:10:18 Speaker 3 Which is your essence

1:10:19 Speaker 1 ... right, and you allow it to come out, and you, you embody it, and you... Then what, what he was is still alive in this world, albeit in your shape, in your, in your form and your experience.

1:10:30 Speaker 3 Correct.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 Right? So but that, but it's, you know, it, it, it's, it's possible, but I think that is a challenge because when you, when, when, when, when the message is... So for example, there are certain pockets of Lubavitch, like, like the Spitz Lubavitch, right? Where, like, Rebbe-like is to dress like the Rebbe or to be... You know, I, I'm not saying it's, it's widespread. I'm not saying everyone's like that. I'm not even, I don't, I'm not even sure if it exists, although my guess it does somewhere. But you see it happen over there, where it's like, it's all about the mo- like, there's only one way, and, like, there's a competition of what's the way because there's only one Rebbe, right? And I think there is a, there is a tension there that has to... And I think that's what lies at the tension. I, maybe it's being resolved. I think you, as you speak to more and more people, you realize that there are different ways to be a Hasid, so clearly people are figuring it out on their own terms. But what does it mean to be a, to get to your question, what does it mean to be a Hasid today? What does it mean to be a Lubavitcher today? To answer your question in short, it means to, to live, I think, by the Rebbe's ideals and by the Rebbeim's ideals. I know it's only the third Rebbe. There's many, there's seven Rebbeim. By their ideals, and to live with it, and

1:11:42 Speaker 1 to be courageous enough to live with it on your terms. That's what I think Lubavitch identity is, which is more of an, a question than an answer. But I think that's what it is. Like, Lubavitch to me today is about courage, and it's about... I don't like the word authenticity because it, it, uh... Anyway, I'm telling you what I think. I'm not saying what I know for a fact. But if I had to answer the question, I don't like the word authenticity because it's, it's just bandied about as an excuse for, for half-thought answers and then, like, laziness very often. But I think it's about courage. I think it's about honesty. It's about, it's about, about risk. Like, I'm gonna try. Like, this is what I think. This is what I believe. And if I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

1:12:26 Speaker 3 So I think one of the things that I think make this difficult, and by the way, what you said is good because you actually brought out even more of what I'm thinking here. Because there's nothing more that the Aibishter, the Rebbe would want than true Nimnah Hanemnah is. Like, you know, excuse me, like some nobody being mamish Rebbe-like. That would be like, you know, like the Sneh Nenu Uchal. I mean, that, that's, that's like the, the, the, the, the, the picture of, like, Chabad Hasidut. Sneh Nenu Uchal.

1:12:55 Speaker 1 That's a good chap, you're saying. It's a divine chap.

1:12:59 Speaker 3 It, it's probably the divine kavana.

1:13:00 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:00 Speaker 3 I mean, that the holy Starshalis is probably to get to some point like that.

1:13:04 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:04 Speaker 3 Which, which, right? It makes sense.

1:13:06 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:07 Speaker 3 And not only that, that there should-

1:13:08 Speaker 1 No, but it, but it says, like, um, that, that, that a melech likes a tinok haMedaber 'cause it's, uh, it's a Chiddush.

1:13:13 Speaker 3 Correct. Yes.

1:13:14 Speaker 1 A novelty.

1:13:15 Speaker 3 Correct.

1:13:15 Speaker 1 So it's a chap.

1:13:16 Speaker 3 Correct.

1:13:16 Speaker 1 It's a divine chap, yeah.

1:13:17 Speaker 3 Correct. And so Fekert, I, I, I, I... You're, you're actually strengthening my, my, my, my thoughts here.

1:13:24 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:24 Speaker 3 But at the same time, um-

1:13:26 Speaker 1 You don't have to argue.

1:13:27 Speaker 3 No, no, it's good. The, the, the, um, I think that there's a, a, a, uh, an, an, an element here which I think is, is, is... When we look at the Rebbe, the Rebbe always, uh, for whatever reason, was so gekacht in Mashiach, right? Mashiach, Mashiach, Mashiach. And I've always asked myself, like, "Why? Like, what was the Mashiach?" And one of the things that came to me was, is that Mashiach is, uh, something that's BeEtzem, but it's by all people equal.

1:14:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:14:03 Speaker 3 Moisha Rabbeinu, he has to have a, the rosh, the rosh Bnei Yisroel. The Mashiach, right, the Moisha SheBeDor is the, is the, is the Nasi of the dor. And through the rosh, the rest of the body gets, right? And then you have places where it says, by the way, any Talmid Chacham is M- is Moisha SheBeDor. Fine. But, but, but it's yet through this hierarchical structure, if that's the right word to use.

1:14:25 Speaker 1 Right.

1:14:25 Speaker 3 Mashiach is this essence where he and all Jews are equal.

1:14:29 Speaker 1 Right.

1:14:30 Speaker 3 At least in the Hasidut.

1:14:31 Speaker 1 Right.

1:14:31 Speaker 3 If you learn in, in, in the Amaram, like, uh, Yud Zayin and, and Achd Mishah Pesach, other places, him and all Jews are equal.

1:14:38 Speaker 1 Right.

1:14:39 Speaker 3 And you find this, the Rebbe would quote this all the, all the time in Torah, how the thing it said about Mashiach, we say Veyikuiyam Banu or, or, or-

1:14:47 Speaker 1 Right

1:14:47 Speaker 3 ... these types of things. It's almost if the Rebbe looked at it and said, "You know, really we're not different." We're really not different. And therefore, I can demand from you exactly what I'm demanding of myself. In this Mashiach structure, it's about everybody being totally unique, yet everybody being totally one and beyond, beyond the world. Something, something totally beyond.

1:15:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:11 Speaker 3 And what I'm saying is, is that, and I just wanna go into this, is that it's easy just to scream Mashiach and things like this, and put a bumper sticker, et cetera. But let's think about the Rebbe. The Rebbe, the Rebbe wasn't driven to change a world.

1:15:28 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:30 Speaker 3 That means if you were to ask me and you were to say, "What did the Rebbe really want?" I would say the Rebbe wanted every Yid, Goy, and every animal in this world should be, like, serving the Aibishter somehow. Well, they're all serving the Aibishter, we know that. But, like, in a revealed way, and this world becoming a perfect place. I mean, like, like, like, you know, we walk out, we give out a few Shevet Mitzvah Bnei Ak cards and whatever people do, and they feel like, "Oh, we're making a change in the world."

1:15:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:15:51 Speaker 3 I think the Rebbe w- was expecting, like, the whole world to change, right? I think that in this regard, the Rebbe was very different than the previous Rebbeim.

1:16:02 Speaker 1 Right.

1:16:02 Speaker 3 And I think in the previous Rebbeim, they themselves were invo- involved in hatzklah, some Hasidim were.

1:16:07 Speaker 1 Right.

1:16:07 Speaker 3 But for the most part, they were demanding of the Hasidim themselves, their own avodas Hashem.

1:16:12 Speaker 1 Right.

1:16:12 Speaker 3 But the Rebbe, the Rebbe demanded us to push it, go out and change the world. It was about changing the world, a drive that, that, that was unsatiable.

1:16:21 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:16:22 Speaker 3 And I think that one of the problems, one of the issues that have become because of not, uh, dealing or not moving the Rebbe's message forward and speaking about what the Rebbe demands of us, is that for many of us, we become complacent. That the, the, the, the, this generation of being a Lubavitcher today has now a complacency to it.

1:16:45 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:16:45 Speaker 3 "I'll be fine. I'll do my hitas, I'll do my Rambam, I'll go on meftayim, I'll, I'll, I'll..." Or sometimes you have, you know... We, we have here one of the, a person who was the president here, moved away a few, a few, uh, year ago, two years ago. So he decided to start a block party of whatever, every Rosh Hashanah. Since then, every yontif he has, I think, 50, 100 Jews coming to his house, like a Chabad house. Here, Baruch Hashem, the blocks are full of Yidden, and they're not from Yidden, and they're all coming, and they're, and they're, and they're and they're... And it's, it's like a shlichas. Ev- every one of us could be driven-

1:17:19 Speaker 1 Right

1:17:19 Speaker 3 ... could be, could be making a difference. Is that Rebbe drive in you still going? Or we feel like, "Oh, I'm disconnected from it because of, uh, politics, because of the way somebody spoke to me, because I don't have an identity in it." Um, you know, when I grew up, uh, everybody just reminded me that I should have a white shirt, and I should, uh, and I should, uh, do hitas, and so that's what makes me a Hasid.

1:17:41 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:42 Speaker 3 Do we-- Who's the, who is the one pushing forward with this, um, with this call, with this identity, with this... The bachurim are growing up and they're saying, "I want more than just being a regular Jew. I want more than just being, I would say, the Hasid of pre-Tosh Minod."

1:18:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, no one's gonna... Well, in a way, by definition, no one can and no one should. That's, that's a point that you're making. You know, uh, you ask why there is spoke of Mashiach, I don't know why. Um, I, I don't, like... Not because I'm some big-

1:18:22 Speaker 3 Neither do I. It's just my theory

1:18:22 Speaker 1 ... No, I'm saying, not that, not that, not that I'm some big, like, Hasid or, like, 萝卜, but, like, uh, I, I, I, I, I don't have, like, a... The Rebbe on the surface had many different positions that don't all add up to me, and, and-

1:18:36 Speaker 3 And by the way, simply, he probably should've wanted Mashiach.

1:18:38 Speaker 1 No, yeah, no, no, I, I, like, like, like, you know, I, I don't, like, even begin to believe that I understand all of his motivations. But I think one of the things that I, I, I, I see what you're saying about, um, Mashiach being, quote-unquote, "democratic." But I, I think what I would, what I would s- what I would, the way I would p- uh, get at it is that, you know, again, I see it that the Rebbe was the final Rebbe. One way or another, he was the final Rebbe. Either Mashiach was gonna come or he wasn't gonna come, but he was gonna be the last Lubavitch Rebbe. It was clear to everyone, it was clear to him, okay? There was no, um... And, and so, a- and, you know, especially if you feel that, like, you know, the, the seven sfiros is how it was always meant to be. How, whether, you know, whether it's just how it was or how it was meant to be, leave it up to you, but he was the final one. And so every project has to be, at some point, wrapped up and in a way, like, what's a final word on all of this 200 years plus of, of Hasidism, of, of, of, of, of, of, of the Rebbeim, of this growth and, and development of, of Lubavitch and, and the ideas and the way of life and so on. What's the final words? Where does this lead us? Does this lead us back inward,

1:19:53 Speaker 1 where everybody retreats to their own corners? Or does it lead us to a kind of, uh, uh, homogeneous, like, everybody has to come back to one way of living, and we all kind of, like, we hunker down in a certain way and say, "This is it," and that, and every, like, s- like, push everyone else out? Like we spoke off the podcast of, like, you know, we're only gonna have a school for these kind of kids, a camp only for these kind of kids, because that's what feels Hasidish, and we don't want any... Like, are we gonna do that? Or are we gonna say, "Look, at the end of the day, guys, this is Chabad." Is, is, like, it's nothing if not a, a, a, a, a, uh, a, a declaration of, like, going all the way. Like, we go all the way up to atzmus, and then, like, in the world, it's all the way to the endpoint. Like, that's it. You cannot have it halfway, at least, like, to be intellectually honest, right?

1:20:45 Speaker 3 Or in other words, every single Jew of every single 萝卜, of every single non-Jew is going to be affected by Hasidism.

1:20:53 Speaker 1 Uh-

1:20:53 Speaker 3 This isn't stopping by me and you.

1:20:54 Speaker 1 No, I understand. I understand. But even within Lubavitch or even within Hasidism Chabad, like, you cannot limit it at, like, some artif- like, everything, any, any limitation is artificial Right? Any, any like, oh, it's, it's, it in-includes this and that, it includes this way, it doesn't include that way. Like you're saying. Includes this way, it doesn't include that way. That's artificial because, like, what Mashiach... Like, I remember growing up in a yeshiva, but like, uh, but, uh, I don't know where this started from. It sounds like it started in Detroit 'cause it's that crazy, but I don't know. Maybe it came elsewhere. Like, that like, like there was a big, like, worry that like on one hand we want Mashiach to come because that will mean the Rebbe farbrengen. But at the same time, if Mashiach comes, that means that we're gonna have to share the Rebbe with all the other Yidden. It's gonna be annoying that like, that like now we have to pack in the-

1:21:39 Speaker 3 I think, I think both statements are wrong.

1:21:42 Speaker 1 I'm just... Yeah, of course. Yeah, the... I told you it's crazy, but

1:21:45 Speaker 3 See, I don't look backwards.

1:21:47 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I-

1:21:48 Speaker 3 I personally believe when Mashiach will come, the Rebbe will be listening to you farbrengen.

1:21:51 Speaker 1 No, I, uh, I, I hope not, but I, I, I-

1:21:53 Speaker 3 Why, why do you hope not?

1:21:54 Speaker 1 No, look, I certainly would hope that he has a nicer shul to farbreng in. And I, and I, and I think it would be nice if, if people had normal, um, like, like if not seats 'cause it's not bacovedick, but normal, like, places to stand.

1:22:07 Speaker 3 Do you think... You know, I have this imagination, by the way, that when two bochurim sit today and learn a Maimor in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or they sit down and they sit down to a farbrengen. And I'm, by the way, I'm just illustrating the idea of ma, of, of, of, of, of, uh, of, um, uh, um, not, um, Baal Shem Tov emit connect day. You know, the story of the Friedik Rebbe, um, listening into the farbrengen that the Rebbe speaks about.

1:22:32 Speaker 1 Right.

1:22:33 Speaker 3 I have no qu- I'm al- I'm al- I almost have no question that the theater, and like you said, the chidush of two Lubavitcher bochurim sitting right now and learning a Maimor together or, or, or farbrenging together and talking about whatever it is, I have to imagine, like, all the Rabbeim are like, "Oh, what's that? Let's go c- let's go watch this." This is much more entertaining. This is much more, this is much more inspirational. This is much more... I would think that the Rebbe would rather be there than, like, going to hear the Rambam say some Torah.

1:23:08 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said that about the Friedik Rebbe. He said about the Friedik Rebbe, I forget in what context, in t- in the t- in that first year of that the, the Friedik Rebbe with No, but, but to answer-

1:25:01 Speaker 3 But why?

1:25:01 Speaker 1 But, but to answer why?

1:25:02 Speaker 3 But why?

1:25:03 Speaker 1 Why?

1:25:03 Speaker 3 And by the way, in a certain way-

1:25:04 Speaker 1 Why? Because, because-

1:25:05 Speaker 3 I'll say this for girls even more than for boys.

1:25:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, but I'll tell you why.

1:25:08 Speaker 3 When was, when was the last time, uh, our girls or your girls experienced what I would call a, a, a Rebbeshe-type event?

1:25:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't, I-

1:25:24 Speaker 3 You realize that till Gimel Tammuz the women came to farbrengens. The women came to our confess.

1:25:30 Speaker 1 No, they got a kuntras, they got-

1:25:31 Speaker 3 They got the kuntras-

1:25:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

1:25:32 Speaker 3 ... and they were equal in everything.

1:25:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:25:34 Speaker 3 And since then, the men go to the oil, the men go to seven... Well, se-certainly the women go, too.

1:25:37 Speaker 1 Well, what's that?

1:25:38 Speaker 3 But if you ha- but if you have the farbrengens that they have, Base Refka.

1:25:41 Speaker 1 So they have, they have, they have Nshe, they have Nshe Chabad farbrengens. They go to school. I, I hear what you're saying, but I, I think... Look, I think, I think, I think girls and women, and obviously I'm generalizing here, I think they have this idea that you talk about in, like, being a Hasid in an internal way has always been instinctive to them, and also the way, like... Yeah, they went to farbrengens, but they also didn't go for many years when they were mothers. They wouldn't go. And so, and so they had to figure out, and they figured out instinctively that you can be a Hasid without always being in the Rebbe's proximity. And it's, it's, like, my fa- my husband's or my father's going to the farbrengen and I'm not going, and it's, I'm still a Hasid. And so they were already dealing with that before.

1:26:19 Speaker 3 Right, but I'm coming from a different perspective. The perspec- the perspective I'm coming from is do we sit as leaders or as people, whoever we are-

1:26:30 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:26:30 Speaker 3 ... thinking about the Rebbe or thinking about the kids?

1:26:37 Speaker 1 I, I-

1:26:37 Speaker 3 And this goes back to the core-

1:26:39 Speaker 1 I think, I think-

1:26:39 Speaker 3 ... about what we're speaking about before.

1:26:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, I, I think-

1:26:41 Speaker 3 If the Rebbe is in our children-

1:26:43 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:26:44 Speaker 3 ... looking at our children is really where we should be looking for all the answers and for everything that we have to move forward.

1:26:50 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. I think you're going a bit far there. I, I, I, I-

1:26:53 Speaker 3 Say why.

1:26:54 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, because I, that's a very American, uh, t'nua of basically absconding or abdicating relationship and saying, "Okay," you know, absi- abdicating responsibility and saying, "I'm..." you know, "I, it's too hard to be an adult, so let me look for answers in my kids."

1:27:09 Speaker 3 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:27:10 Speaker 1 I'm saying-

1:27:10 Speaker 3 What I'm saying is that if I-

1:27:11 Speaker 1 Kids are takka tumistik and takka have wonderful things, but they're also just kids.

1:27:15 Speaker 3 No, no, no. What I'm saying is something else. I'm saying is if I wanna create a mashal, um, an experience of Simchas Torah-

1:27:21 Speaker 1 Right

1:27:22 Speaker 3 My goal is not trying to make it as traditional as it was by the Rebbe. It's trying to do what the Rebbe did, to make it as adaptable to the kids as possible.

1:27:31 Speaker 1 So I, I s- I still disagree. I'm, I'm not saying it's wrong, but I disagree. I think, I think what we... 'Cause it all starts with us. I'll give you an example of, uh, a s- a similar, a similar idea but in a different topic. Like a lot of times, like why are Bochurim not If you say so. I live in Philadelphia, I don't know what's going on.

1:32:24 Speaker 3 That's fine. And I think very often you go to events wherever they are, and people are trying to, uh, uh, what I call keep... They're f- A lot of these issues that they're fighting about or they're arguing about, et cetera, is the integrity of the Rebbe and Lubavitch.

1:32:45 Speaker 1 Right.

1:32:47 Speaker 3 And I wish they would spend much more time on the integrity of our children and the Rebbe being in their lives and how to do that.

1:32:55 Speaker 1 Assuming the future.

1:32:56 Speaker 3 Correct.

1:32:56 Speaker 1 Who in the future? Okay. Okay, not kids as kids, but like, like what's like y- what's the point of protecting something that nobody's gonna care about down the road? Is that what you're saying?

1:33:05 Speaker 3 But not because of the political perspective. It's because you're looking in the wrong direct- direction.

1:33:09 Speaker 1 Right.

1:33:10 Speaker 3 The Rebbe didn't ask you about Gimmel Tammuz.

1:33:12 Speaker 1 Right.

1:33:12 Speaker 3 He gave you a job.

1:33:13 Speaker 1 No, but it's also practical. If nobody's gonna care about it in 20 years, what's, what's the point of h- these arguments at all? What's the point?

1:33:18 Speaker 3 Yeah, but I'm saying even more than that. It's not even about the argument per se.

1:33:22 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

1:33:22 Speaker 3 I'm talking about also the, the, the- The, the, the... What's the way to say this? I'm gonna... When was the last time that older Chassidim, let's say, whatever it is, went around to all the yeshivas to, like, farbrengen with bachurim, speak about the Rebbe's inyanim, et cetera.

1:33:41 Speaker 1 Well, it's hard for them to travel, but I think that-

1:33:42 Speaker 3 They're able to travel to New York to deal with all the issues-

1:33:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

1:33:45 Speaker 3 ... they're dealing with.

1:33:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, especially... There was a time where, like, yeah, my grandfather with the Guf was trying to, like, get Chassidim to go to different communities.

1:33:51 Speaker 3 That was communities, et cetera, and it happened for a while. But no, what I'm saying is, in the old days, leadership meant-

1:33:56 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:33:56 Speaker 3 ... what it said, the Parashat Shlach Lecha barzel.

1:33:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, but-

1:33:58 Speaker 3 And they went around to go bring about-

1:34:01 Speaker 1 There's no lead- there's no leadership coming. And I think, I think-

1:34:03 Speaker 3 What?

1:34:03 Speaker 1 There's no leadership happening.

1:34:04 Speaker 3 No, no, no, no, no. So I'm not talking about... I don't wanna say that, but what I'm saying is, is that our focus-

1:34:09 Speaker 1 All right

1:34:10 Speaker 3 ... in, in, in, in, in, in our world of what I call, in the inner Lubavitch world-

1:34:15 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Right

1:34:15 Speaker 3 ... so I think there's an unbelievable focus in the, in what I call the Guf of Chabad. The Guf of Chabad is this, uh, hafatsah shlichus, in that it's unbelievable. There's moistes galore-

1:34:28 Speaker 1 Right

1:34:28 Speaker 3 ... uh, to, to broaden it and to widen it and to, to... It, it's, it's... And the Rebbe probably wants it to grow even more than it's growing.

1:34:35 Speaker 1 Right.

1:34:36 Speaker 3 And it's sad that not every single kid is going out on shlichus-

1:34:38 Speaker 1 Right

1:34:38 Speaker 3 ... in one way or another. Why isn't it our responsibility to make sure that the Rebbe wanted every kid should go on shlichus? Everyone should be able to go out, every single person.

1:34:47 Speaker 1 Right.

1:34:48 Speaker 3 Who's supposed to be caring about that?

1:34:50 Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

1:34:50 Speaker 3 Who's caring about that?

1:34:52 Speaker 1 Look, the-

1:34:53 Speaker 3 Do we actually care about-

1:34:55 Speaker 1 I'll give you a great story that you're gonna like. I'll give you a great story that you'll like. If you finish your thought.

1:34:59 Speaker 3 Am I... And this is all the same part of this. What I'm saying is, is how much time are we investing in our yeshivas, in our bachurim? From this perspective-

1:35:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

1:35:06 Speaker 3 ... this isn't chollas. They do their own thing. They, they go to another yeshiva, another yeshiva. And I'm saying 'cause there's some great on chollas-

1:35:11 Speaker 1 But, but-

1:35:11 Speaker 3 ... and there's great people

1:35:12 Speaker 1 ... but I think you're having it both ways here. You, you... The whole idea that you laid out about Mashiach being everybody and not being hierarchal, hier-hierarchical, is that, yes, in post-Gmar Tammuz Lubavitch, hierarchy is not, is not feasible. Like, you can't, you cannot wait-

1:35:29 Speaker 3 But people are fighting for it.

1:35:31 Speaker 1 So do they. Let them fight over. That's their problem. That's not my-

1:35:33 Speaker 3 No, and that's what I'm saying. The Hashkafa issue is-

1:35:35 Speaker 1 Uh

1:35:35 Speaker 3 ... we should be saying-

1:35:37 Speaker 1 Who cares?

1:35:37 Speaker 3 Oh.

1:35:38 Speaker 1 Who cares what they do?

1:35:38 Speaker 3 I don't... Oh, I, I don't know.

1:35:39 Speaker 1 Who cares what they do? That's what we, that's what we should say. "Who cares what they do?"

1:35:41 Speaker 3 No, no, no. 'Cause I think-

1:35:42 Speaker 1 'Cause you be... You, you, you be a-

1:35:42 Speaker 3 Oh, I do care. Wanna know why?

1:35:44 Speaker 1 No, but you be a leader, but I don't, I, I don't need to.

1:35:46 Speaker 3 You know why?

1:35:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:35:47 Speaker 3 'Cause I think if one of these people would go down to a yeshiva once a month-

1:35:50 Speaker 1 Say that

1:35:50 Speaker 3 ... by the way, but I'm talking about this way

1:35:52 Speaker 1 ... but, but I'm getting... No, but I'll tell you, I, I actually think that's an abdication in a way of, of our own responsibility, especially according to what you're saying, which I agree with. Okay. Like, I was thinking the other day, uh, Nachshon ben Aminadav jumped into the ocean. Was he a leader before that?

1:36:09 Speaker 3 He was married to Aharon HaKohen's, uh, brother.

1:36:11 Speaker 1 Uh, but he wasn't... We don't see any mention of him.

1:36:13 Speaker 3 He was one of the Nesiim-

1:36:14 Speaker 1 After

1:36:14 Speaker 3 ... of his, of his-

1:36:15 Speaker 1 After.

1:36:16 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:36:16 Speaker 1 After.

1:36:16 Speaker 3 Okay, I, I'm fine.

1:36:17 Speaker 1 Moshe Rabbeinu's standing at the water. Let me ask you another question, and maybe it's been asked in the past, maybe they've had a sicha about it. I, I, I, I, I apologize for my ignorance. Why didn't Moshe Rabbeinu jump in? Why didn't Aharon, why didn't Aharon HaKohen jump in? Why didn't anybody else that we know about jump in? Well, I don't know why they didn't, but I, I, I could tell you that sometimes leadership... Like, sometimes the leaders can't do certain things. If they had done it, it wouldn't have proven anything. Okay, Moshe Rabbeinu's jumping in. Okay, he's Moshe. He's Moshe Rabbeinu.

1:36:51 Speaker 3 So I'm laughing. So your point is, yeah.

1:36:53 Speaker 1 So, you know so-

1:36:53 Speaker 3 So that's why I started a yeshiva right now.

1:36:55 Speaker 1 No, so call it... So, so, so Nachshon ben Aminadav, he didn't, he wasn't a leader. He had courage, and he said that, "To hell with this. We have to get there. No one else is going there. I'm gonna go there." And he walked until he almost drowned.

1:37:08 Speaker 3 I feel like that's where I'm going.

1:37:09 Speaker 1 There you go. I'm just... No, I'm just saying, like, like, you're, like... You, you... A lot of people make this point where, like, we have to move past the leaders, but we're the leaders. The leaders-

1:37:16 Speaker 3 No, no, no. So I don't really-

1:37:17 Speaker 1 The leaders are stuck-

1:37:17 Speaker 3 I don't mean it-

1:37:17 Speaker 1 ... in an old model.

1:37:18 Speaker 3 Right.

1:37:18 Speaker 1 You, you can't fix that. You have to... A lot of the leaders are older. A lot of the leaders are older. They grew up their whole life thinking of things like, "One day, I will have to be X, Y, Z."