Ep. 57 // "Chassidim That Work" w/ Rabbi Rafi Tennenhaus

00:00 Speaker 1 So the night before the Rebbe became Rebbe, and this I heard directly from my father. He walked into Yechidus, he told me, and he told the Rebbe, "Vos daf der Rebbe der kop veyter." It started to bother my father-

00:12 Speaker 2 Yeah

00:12 Speaker 1 ... that the Rebbe's gonna lose, lose his private life, and he told the Rebbe that the Rebbe can zitzen in a vinkl and lernen. Everybody was telling Rebbe, "Become Rebbe, become Rebbe." And he was in Yechidus, where the whole all, the whole group.

00:24 Speaker 2 Right.

00:24 Speaker 1 And my father s- signed the tzaddik's haschos. The Rebbe answered, "Az ich vil helfn chassidim, vos veln arbetn, iz dos geday."

00:35 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-five. My name is Bentzi Yafetzon, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All right. We are here live with Rabbi Tennenhaus, the one and only, and, um, people who've been listening to this podcast will have had some introduction to him, uh, through, uh, Rabbi Pini and Druzier. Um, but we're, we're not gonna rely on that. We'll, we'll give you your full, uh, your full due. And I just gotta say, um, we're here in the library, which is off the side of, of the, of the shul, and, uh, I think it can be labeled seven-seventy South. It's, uh, it-- but only in the good sense. A, a lot of, uh, energy, a little bit, a little bit of tohu and chaos, just enough, but a lot of davening and a lot of learning and, um, uh, a, a new hub of, uh, of Yiddishkeit and, um, Yiddish energy in, uh, South Florida. So thank you very much for having me, uh, just a week or so before Pesach.

01:51 Speaker 1 My pleasure. I just wanna welcome you-

01:52 Speaker 2 Thank you

01:53 Speaker 1 ... to, to the hood. And this place was not always a little mini seven-seventy.

01:58 Speaker 2 I know.

01:59 Speaker 1 And the last few years, there's been incredible changes, and we're uti-utilizing it to the max. And Baruch Hashem, uh, we're seeing the dividends and the, the success of, uh, so many young couples that have moved into the neighborhood, and, uh, I'm blessed to, to be part of it.

02:20 Speaker 2 So I wanna go, I wanna go to the, to the beginning of your story, and then, and we'll get-- and, and work our way back. But before I do, so I don't forget, was, h- was this something that you had in mind when you came to Florida? You know, you-- a shlichas that is essentially a Lubavitch community. Is that something that you were entertaining or something you were interested in?

02:45 Speaker 1 When I went on shlichas, I was very naive. I probably still naive. Actually, every day I wake up, I feel it's my first day on shlichas.

02:54 Speaker 2 Mamash.

02:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's-- I feel every day, uh, we're now closing in on forty-five years.

03:00 Speaker 2 Forty-five years.

03:01 Speaker 1 And I-- Baruch Hashem, I wake up, I feel it's my first day on shlichas.

03:04 Speaker 2 Huh.

03:05 Speaker 1 So when I came down, number one, I didn't even realize I had to fundraise. I thought that you're becoming a rabbi of a shul, that the shul will pay you, and that was it. I had no idea that there was fundrai-fundraising involved. I just was totally, uh, oblivious to this all.

03:20 Speaker 2 You started off with a shul or you didn't even have a shul?

03:22 Speaker 1 There was a shul.

03:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

03:23 Speaker 1 There was a balabos.

03:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

03:24 Speaker 1 And Dr. Schuster, alav ha-shalom, who just passed away, he had a minyan in his house, and then before I moved down, he o- he bought a house specially to be a shul. It's a mile away from here. And I didn't even think of fundraising. As far as where to go in the future, I was ready to go anywhere. I had many offers, including South Africa. And my wife, God bless her, she wanted to be near her family. And the Feligs, like myself, originally from Montreal, they had moved to Florida back in nineteen seventy-eight, and we got married here in nineteen seventy-nine. And my attitude was, I just wanted to go on shlichas. I wasn't picky, like, where and what. You wanna be near your mother. "Okay, we'll, we'll move near your mother." That, that was my approach. But I had no vision as to Lubavitch community, not Lubavitch community. I was just ready to go on shlichas and whatever, whatever, where the chips will fall, wherever it may land, and that was my attitude.

04:23 Speaker 2 And that attitude stayed that way after forty-five years.

04:25 Speaker 1 After forty-five years, despite the incredible changes that have taken place.

04:30 Speaker 2 All right. So I, I think that's-- uh, hopefully we're gonna circle back to that and, and understand where that philosophy comes from. 'Cause I think it's a bit easier said than done, um, in the sense that when you start off, yes, there's gonna be a lot of innocence and a lot of, uh, openness to what might happen. You don't know yet what's gonna happen. But as you start building, and this is true of every company or anything, where you start building and you start seeing hatslacha, and you're like, "Okay, I need to solidify this, and I need to focus on this," and suddenly you have to change, it becomes very hard. That's why a lot of businesses go out of business, and that's why, you know, very often, to be blunt, a lot of shluchim don't like when their Chabad House turns into a, a Lubavitcher shtiebel, because I built up a Chabad House not for this. I built it up for, for that, right?

05:14 Speaker 1 Yes.

05:14 Speaker 2 And so it'd be very interesting to come back to see where, where you get this philosophy from. So let's go back to the beginning. Um, uh, how does the story of, uh, of, uh, Refi Tennenhaus begin?

05:27 Speaker 1 On shlichas or in my life?

05:29 Speaker 2 No, life. I mean, y- you didn't, you weren't, you weren't born-

05:31 Speaker 1 I wasn't born on, in nineteen eighty. I was born in nineteen fifty-seven.

05:35 Speaker 2 Okay. I wasn't, I wasn't prying, but okay. So you're about my father's age, a couple years older than him.

05:39 Speaker 1 Correct.

05:40 Speaker 2 I don't know if you know my father.

05:41 Speaker 1 Yes.

05:41 Speaker 2 Oh, you do know him. Okay.

05:42 Speaker 1 Yes.

05:43 Speaker 2 Okay.

05:44 Speaker 1 So I was born actually in a little small town.

05:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:48 Speaker 1 Tiny town in the maritime provinces of Canada. I don't know if you know of the maritime provinces.

05:54 Speaker 2 No.

05:55 Speaker 1 There's four provinces on the east of Quebec.

05:57 Speaker 2 The east of Quebec.

05:58 Speaker 1 There's four little provinces.

06:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:00 Speaker 1 And I was born in a town called Bathurst, New Brunswick.

06:05 Speaker 2 Okay, I've heard of New Brunswick

06:07 Speaker 1 So Bathurst, New Brunswick was a town with maybe 10 Jewish families

06:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

06:12 Speaker 1 My father, Oliver Shalom, moved there. He, he emigrated from Romania with his parents and his siblings in 1938

06:20 Speaker 2 Before the war

06:21 Speaker 1 Before the war, they got out of Romania, and he ended up, had to, he had to support his parents, and a lot of his family members from the Dolphin family, his grandmother. His mother was Esther Dolphin, the oldest of nine Dolphin children

06:40 Speaker 2 So kind of-

06:40 Speaker 1 Related, related to the Lubavitcher Dolphins, but a distant relative

06:44 Speaker 2 I see

06:44 Speaker 1 Not, not... But it's Dolphin with an E. It's a big Mishpacha in Montreal, a very big family

06:48 Speaker 2 I see

06:49 Speaker 1 And he went in 1940. He arrived in 1938. In 1940, he went to Bathurst, as did other family members. They went to New Brunswick to make Parnassa in the Shmatta business-

07:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:01 Speaker 1 ... among other things

07:02 Speaker 2 It's a manufacturing town

07:04 Speaker 1 It... No. It was just an opening. I guess they fig- figured-

07:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:08 Speaker 1 ... that Montreal was already covered, so they went to a new province

07:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:11 Speaker 1 And they went to different towns in that province. Many of my family members. One is Hatman, one is Sand

07:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:19 Speaker 1 And, uh-

07:20 Speaker 2 Outs from Eden?

07:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

07:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

07:22 Speaker 1 But not, not like my father was

07:25 Speaker 2 Right

07:25 Speaker 1 My father was on a different level

07:27 Speaker 2 Same, were there, were there communities there? There were shuls there?

07:30 Speaker 1 Some had, some didn't. Bathurst, New Brunswick, where I was born, only had a minyan on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. So when my father had Yahrtzeit, he would go into Montreal

07:40 Speaker 2 And how far is it from Montreal?

07:42 Speaker 1 It's about 525 miles

07:44 Speaker 2 Okay, so you're talking about a serious, like, a 10-hour drive almost

07:47 Speaker 1 Yeah, or usually he would take the train

07:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, but it, it's not three hours

07:50 Speaker 1 No. No. So my mo- my mother, before my father built a mikvah in M- in, in Bathurst with the Rebbe's Brocha, and the Rebbe gave financial assistance in the mid-1950s. Before my father built a mikvah in that little town, he, my mother would either go to the mikvah in Moncton, New Brunswick, which is a big city in New Brunswick, so to speak-

08:09 Speaker 2 Right

08:10 Speaker 1 ... or to Montreal

08:11 Speaker 2 And how far is Moncton from?

08:13 Speaker 1 I'm not sure the mileage, but it's, it's, it's a trip

08:16 Speaker 2 Also a trip

08:16 Speaker 1 It's, it's a trip. It's not as long as Montreal. It's much closer

08:19 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

08:20 Speaker 1 So, uh-

08:21 Speaker 2 And, and what was your shайchus to Lubavitch? How did he end up at Lubavitch?

08:23 Speaker 1 So how did my father end up in Lubavitch? So he came as... He grew up in Vizhnitz

08:27 Speaker 2 Right

08:28 Speaker 1 As a Vizhnitzer Hasid, and-

08:30 Speaker 2 He grew up in Romania as a Vizhnitzer Hasid

08:32 Speaker 1 Yes. His father was a Vizhnitzer Hasid

08:35 Speaker 2 Right

08:36 Speaker 1 And that was a, the hub. It, it's, he was in the town of Radovitz, which is near Czernowitz, so that area kept on changing between Ukraine-

08:44 Speaker 2 Yeah

08:44 Speaker 1 ... and Romania

08:45 Speaker 2 Okay

08:46 Speaker 1 So now, uh, you know, you always hear of Czernowitz, many stories, so that's... The, the big city near Radovitz or Radaut is Czernowitz. So he told me that he, he heard about, uh, when he was young, uh, about the Alter Rebbe Shochnor. He knew of the Alter Rebbe Shochnor, but he didn't know about Tanya until he came to Montreal. And when the Bochurim, the nine Shluchim of the Fifth Rebbe-

09:11 Speaker 2 Mm

09:12 Speaker 1 ... were arriving, he specially came in from New Brunswick, he was already living in New Brunswick, because his father had told him that there's a big Simcha, B- Yeshiva Bochum. That's all they knew, that Yeshiva Bochum who were saved from the Holocaust, w- it wasn't called then the Holocaust. It was, uh, in 1941 when they arrived, that they were arriving in the station, the train station

09:34 Speaker 2 Right

09:35 Speaker 1 They had come by boat

09:36 Speaker 2 From Shanghai

09:36 Speaker 1 From Shanghai

09:36 Speaker 2 From Shanghai

09:36 Speaker 1 They went, they landed in San Francisco, and then they took a train. They only got visas to, to Canada, so they had the train

09:43 Speaker 2 Oh, they came in 1941 already

09:44 Speaker 1 '41, the nine Shluchim, yeah

09:46 Speaker 2 Okay

09:46 Speaker 1 From the Fifth Rebbe

09:47 Speaker 2 So they came before the rest of the sh- uh, the rest of the yeshiva that was stuck in Shanghai

09:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. Some-

09:52 Speaker 2 A lot of them stayed till after the war, I think, right?

09:53 Speaker 1 Some, not all of them came then

09:55 Speaker 2 Right

09:55 Speaker 1 But they had-

09:55 Speaker 2 Okay

09:55 Speaker 1 ... visas to go to Canada, not the United States

09:59 Speaker 2 Right. Right

10:00 Speaker 1 So it was a Thursday night that they landed, these nine, and my father specially came in from New Brunswick 'cause it was like a Simcha in the town that nine boys from Europe through Shanghai were coming

10:10 Speaker 2 Right. Right

10:11 Speaker 1 And all they heard was-

10:12 Speaker 2 Also, also a lot of them themselves were, themselves Pelishe kids from the beginning

10:16 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct

10:16 Speaker 2 They weren't-

10:16 Speaker 1 And they weren't young boys

10:17 Speaker 2 No

10:18 Speaker 1 They weren't 18-year-olds

10:19 Speaker 2 No

10:19 Speaker 1 They were older boys. So what happened was at the train station-

10:22 Speaker 2 Just for people that don't know, Rabbi Greenglass, right? This Rabbi Greenglass

10:24 Speaker 1 Rabbi Greenglass, Rabbi Kramer

10:26 Speaker 2 Right

10:26 Speaker 1 Rabbi Handle

10:27 Speaker 2 Right

10:27 Speaker 1 So these were, you know, very Hashgaha Yidden

10:30 Speaker 2 Right

10:30 Speaker 1 And learned people

10:32 Speaker 2 Right

10:32 Speaker 1 So they, my father comes to the train station with the whole town, so to speak, showed up

10:39 Speaker 2 Mm

10:40 Speaker 1 And he sees from the train, coming off the train, there were about 20 boys with no beards

10:48 Speaker 2 No beards. Right

10:48 Speaker 1 'Cause there was also Talmidim from Mir, the Mir Yeshiva boys

10:52 Speaker 2 Wow

10:52 Speaker 1 And then nine boys came off. They looked totally unkempt

10:57 Speaker 2 Yeah

10:58 Speaker 1 And they weren't young, and the president of the Montreal Jewish community announced publicly when he saw them, "Boys, tomorrow we're taking you to the barber shop" 'Cause it was unheard of

11:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

11:10 Speaker 1 The Rabbonim in Montreal, most of them-

11:12 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

11:12 Speaker 1 Most of them didn't have beards

11:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, this was before the whole Hasidisha community of Tosh and so on

11:17 Speaker 1 Correct. The Tosher Rebbe originally davened with Lubavitch when he first came to town. He didn't have his own minyan

11:22 Speaker 2 But this was before he came

11:23 Speaker 1 I'm just saying

11:24 Speaker 2 Right, right

11:24 Speaker 1 When the Tosher Rebbe came, he davened in Lubavitch on Park Avenue

11:26 Speaker 2 Right, right, right

11:27 Speaker 1 So in-

11:29 Speaker 2 So Montreal's a much smaller community is, is the point

11:31 Speaker 1 Right, and it's also a very Hasidisha community. It, it... Where, where I grew up in Montreal-

11:36 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying back then it was a smaller community

11:38 Speaker 1 It was a much smaller community, but it was very traditional

11:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

11:41 Speaker 1 But even this was a, was totally a-

11:43 Speaker 2 A

11:43 Speaker 1 Uh, it was totally a, it shifted the paradigm-

11:47 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

11:47 Speaker 1 ... as they use it. They didn't use that word then, but it made a big shift. Rabbi Handle told me that a few months after he arrived, they s- found something that wasn't correct in the community mikvah, the women's mikvah, and they fixed it

12:04 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

12:05 Speaker 1 So these Bochurim were big scholars. They were big Talmidie Chachamim

12:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

12:09 Speaker 1 And they immediately got involved with the community

12:12 Speaker 2 How soon did they get married? I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but I-

12:15 Speaker 1 Again, I, I'm not a historian, so I can't tell you

12:17 Speaker 2 No, I'm not, I'm not looking for exacts

12:18 Speaker 1 But, but probably most of them got married in the, in the 1940s, I would, I would say.

12:22 Speaker 2 No, I'm just, I'm just... It's more, like, that these guys, they, they came as bochurim, and the, the sense of responsibility that they had, an agency, like ownership of what they were doing. Like, uh, so many times it's like, "Yeah, a bochur is just, uh, whatever. Uh, when... L- let's, we'll take him seriously when he gets married ," you know?

12:39 Speaker 1 But, but they... The Frienger Rebbe put a lot of koichez.

12:42 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying.

12:42 Speaker 1 I know he sent Reb Shmuel Witten early on to help out.

12:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

12:46 Speaker 1 And-

12:47 Speaker 2 But I'm saying-

12:47 Speaker 1 ... there's letters from the, the Frienger Rebbe in the Igros Kodesh-

12:50 Speaker 2 Right

12:50 Speaker 1 ... when they arrived, and in the, the second letter was to Rabbi Hendel about my grandfather. 'Cause Rabbi Hendel had written to the Frienger Rebbe describing one of the people who greeted him when he arrived, and this made a roishim on my father. First of all, seeing the guys coming out with beards.

13:10 Speaker 2 So this is Zayde Tenenhaus?

13:12 Speaker 1 M- my, my f- yeah, my Zayde.

13:15 Speaker 2 Tenenhaus?

13:16 Speaker 1 Tenenhaus.

13:16 Speaker 2 Your father's father.

13:17 Speaker 1 Yes. My father's father, Yisroel Tenenhaus.

13:19 Speaker 2 Okay.

13:19 Speaker 1 And he passed away young in the '40s, as did my grandmother, but they were close to the bochurim. My Zayde and my bubbe, my bubbe was very worldly, and the bochurim used to come to her with their issues. There was no psychiatrists or psychologists or therapists in yeshiva then.

13:39 Speaker 2 Or, or wives.

13:41 Speaker 1 Correct. So they, they knew that she knew worldly matters.

13:46 Speaker 2 Right.

13:46 Speaker 1 And they would come to discuss things with her, like, she would give them advice.

13:49 Speaker 2 I mean, these were also orphans, weren't they?

13:51 Speaker 1 Correct.

13:51 Speaker 2 Their, their parent... I mean, I don't know if they-

13:53 Speaker 1 Again, I don't know if they knew-

13:54 Speaker 2 Right

13:54 Speaker 1 ... particularly when-

13:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, but they had a sense, I'm sure

13:57 Speaker 1 They had a sense, and, and the community wanted them to go to the Lorentiens when they first landed.

14:02 Speaker 2 Lorentiens, what's that?

14:03 Speaker 1 The Lorentien Mountains. That's the, the mountains where, where Gan Yisroel is.

14:07 Speaker 2 To, to recover, like?

14:08 Speaker 1 To, to take a rest before the yeshiva started. So the Mirrer boys took the community up on it, and they went to the Lorentiens to-

14:16 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:16 Speaker 1 ... to vacate. And the Lubavitcher started the yeshiva Sunday. They, they came on Thursday night, and Sunday... But what made the, what made the biggest roishim on my father-

14:29 Speaker 2 Yeah

14:30 Speaker 1 ... was Rabbi Mendel Tennenbaum because that Shabbos my father stayed-

14:34 Speaker 2 He was one of the bochurim?

14:35 Speaker 1 Yes.

14:36 Speaker 2 And then-

14:36 Speaker 1 So was Rabbi Yosef Weinberg. So was Rabbi-

14:38 Speaker 2 Right

14:38 Speaker 1 ... Yehoshua Kutlarsky. Eventually, they moved to New York. So, so my father saw Rabbi Mendel Tennenbaum davening that Shabbos.

14:46 Speaker 2 Which Tennenbaum is this? Is-

14:47 Speaker 1 Mendel Tennenbaum. He used to be the Baal Tekiah.

14:50 Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

14:50 Speaker 1 He was the principal.

14:51 Speaker 2 Okay. So the Crown Heights Tennenbaum family now.

14:53 Speaker 1 Correct. So my father saw Mendel Tennenbaum davening that Shabbos.

14:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:00 Speaker 1 And he saw him davening till a few minutes before shkiah.

15:03 Speaker 2 Right.

15:04 Speaker 1 And then he saw him make kiddush right before shkiah. And in his years in, 17 years living in, in Vizhnitz territory, he never saw such a davening.

15:15 Speaker 2 So your father?

15:16 Speaker 1 Correct, and that's what won him over. Literally, that's what m- moved him to, to get very close to the Lubavitch Hasidim and to the Rebbeim.

15:24 Speaker 2 Okay. So fast-forward a few years, he reaches out to the Rebbe about the mikveh, just to-

15:29 Speaker 1 Well, fast-forward, he, he had two yechidim with the Frienger Rebbe.

15:33 Speaker 2 Your father?

15:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:34 Speaker 2 So he tr- so once he, once he connected with these Lubavitchers, he traveled to New York?

15:37 Speaker 1 He was very close to him. He would come Yutzes Kislev, let's say, to Montreal for, for Brangy.

15:41 Speaker 2 But then he traveled to New York?

15:42 Speaker 1 He traveled twice to the Frienger Rebbe.

15:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:45 Speaker 1 It wasn't easy a- after the war. It wasn't easy during the war, but after the war, in 1946 was the first time he had yechidas. But because he grew up in a small town in Romania, and he was living in a small town in Canada-

15:59 Speaker 2 Right

15:59 Speaker 1 ... Bathurst, New Brunswick, so when he came to 770, he saw a sign about the second floor that was the Frienger Rebbe's yechidas room and house, and he had no idea how to use the elevator. He was clueless.

16:18 Speaker 2 Huh.

16:19 Speaker 1 So he was pacing up and down the lobby where the zal is because there was nobody around, and he just, he didn't know how to get to the Frienger Rebbe.

16:28 Speaker 2 Oh, so he had an appointment, and he-

16:29 Speaker 1 He had a yechidas.

16:30 Speaker 2 And he-

16:30 Speaker 1 It was arranged

16:31 Speaker 2 ... had to know how to get up.

16:32 Speaker 1 But he didn't know how to go- ... up the elevator. And-

16:36 Speaker 2 That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a deep metaphor over there. Deep, deep metaphor.

16:40 Speaker 1 So, so wait. It gets better. So there was a younger man in the zal then. It was probably after Seder.

16:45 Speaker 2 Right.

16:46 Speaker 1 There was a younger man with a gray hat and a blue suit in the zal, and he saw that someone was pacing up and, up and down the corridor. So this younger man asked my father if he could help him, like, "What's, what's going on?" So my father told him that he has a, a yechidas with the Rebbe, and, uh, he doesn't know how to go to use the elevator. So this younger man was the Ramash.

17:12 Speaker 2 Ramash.

17:12 Speaker 1 My father didn't know who he was, and the Ramash, as the Rebbe was known then, tells my father, who was a linguist, and he spoke seven language- languages fluently, my father. He tells my father in a very heavily accented Russian accent, "Kriechtik niepel." If you listen to the Farbrengens in the early years, you'll hear that the Rebbe's Yiddish was more heavily, heavi- heavily accented with the Russian, just the-

17:46 Speaker 2 So a Ru- a Russian-accented Yiddish?

17:48 Speaker 1 A Russian-accented Yiddish, and my father did not understand what the Rebbe was saying, and he kept on repeating, "Kriechtik niepel. Kriechtik niepel." He didn't-- he was clueless. So the Rebbe took my father upstairs and brought him into yechidas. So that was the first time he met the Rebbe.

18:03 Speaker 2 Oh.

18:04 Speaker 1 And then he had a second yechidas, and that was also a very interesting yechidas with the Frienger Rebbe. It had to do with a shidduch. And, uh, then-

18:14 Speaker 2 Did, did he describe the Frierdiker Rebbe to you?

18:16 Speaker 1 Very much. He said the first time he walked in that, that time, he wanted to run out.

18:22 Speaker 2 Mamish?

18:22 Speaker 1 The fear, the eyes, the Frierdiker Rebbe's eyes-

18:24 Speaker 2 Ah

18:24 Speaker 1 ... just w- went straight, straight through him. He felt like running away.

18:27 Speaker 2 I, I heard that, I heard that from someone else also. But it's c- so interesting because the pictures of Frierdiker Rebbe is so, like when he poses for pictures, it's much more like, uh, smiling and like a Zeide almost.

18:39 Speaker 1 But when my father told me the first time he walked in, he felt like running out 'cause it was like two darts-

18:44 Speaker 2 Wow

18:44 Speaker 1 ... going through him, and, and he, it was hard for him to stay in. That's how overwhelming it was.

18:49 Speaker 2 And they had a conversation?

18:51 Speaker 1 They had a conversation. I don't know much about the first yechidus, but at that time already, the, my father's family was already s- supporting the Lubavitch Yeshiva.

19:02 Speaker 2 In Montreal?

19:03 Speaker 1 Correct, and there was already correspondence my f- father already had from the Frierdiker Rebbe-

19:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

19:08 Speaker 1 ... before he went to see him.

19:10 Speaker 2 Right.

19:10 Speaker 1 He already had correspondence. He had correspondence with my Bubbe and Zeide, the Frierdiker Rebbe. And my father told me he could not understand without Rabbi Simpson.

19:20 Speaker 2 Right.

19:20 Speaker 1 He couldn't understand. It wasn't audible for my father who didn't know the, the Frierdiker Rebbe's, uh, difficulty in speaking. He couldn't pick up what the Frierdiker Rebbe was saying.

19:30 Speaker 2 There were very few people that could, right?

19:31 Speaker 1 Correct. So he had to hear it from the secretary. So I don't know much what went on, but obviously I know that, uh, my u- my great uncles, they helped publish the Sefer Hasichas Tof Shin Hey. They lost a brother, and Rabbi Greenless was very involved with them, uh, sup- uh, donating the publication of Sefer Hasichas Tof Shin Hey. So there's letters-

19:53 Speaker 2 Right

19:53 Speaker 1 ... in the Igros Kodesh, uh, from the Rebbe who was also obviously very involved with the-

19:58 Speaker 2 Chozas, yeah

19:58 Speaker 1 ... with chozas and with the Sforim. So the, the, the name and the family was a very familiar, uh, name to the Frierdiker Rebbe. From then on, after the first yechidus, the Frierdiker Rebbe, when he wrote to my father, wrote Yedidi-

20:14 Speaker 2 Hmm

20:14 Speaker 1 ... as a title. Before that he didn't, but only after they met. Frierd- the Rebbe didn't use that term generally to people in titles. But after that, the first yechidus, second yechidus, which I tell-

20:26 Speaker 2 Well, what do you chalk that up to? 'Cause someone else mentioned that to me.

20:30 Speaker 1 I, I think the Rebbe w- I know, uh, again, this is my own analysis.

20:33 Speaker 2 Yes, of course.

20:33 Speaker 1 We always say that the Rebbe was malkus. I mean, the Rebbe was just, uh, on a different level as far as, uh, the Rebbe's demeanor was much more malkus than, than any of the Rebbeim. And perhaps that's why the terms of endearment were not that, uh, common when the Rebbe addressed someone. It, uh, that's, that's the way we just spoke about it in yeshiva.

21:00 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is a Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlamedia. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basse Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding on to a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad House and community. Share the message and vision of Basse Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. Yeah. There, there is something about that, uh, um, not, not, not to get too carried away with this, uh, digression, but, um, I was reading recently the memoirs of my grandfather, Afつtsin, Meir Afつtsin, and he remembered the, he was wr- he's writing about the last time, the last Fabregin, the last Mochtarah, I think, that Frierdiker Rebbe had with the Bachrim in Russia before he was exiled. So after Beis Tammuz, he had a few months to pack up and leave. Or maybe he was already outside of Russia. I don't remember. But it was the last time that he was seeing these Bachrim, and he says like these lines where like, "I would call you my brothers, but because I was a single child and I never had brothers, I can't

22:27 Speaker 2 call you brothers. I can call you Rebbe instead." Like you can see this, he was a Rebbe then already. Like, a- and they were going through, it, you know, he was also in a very exalted space of, of, of, of, which that comes from the trials and tribulations that he was suffering, and you can see him trying to articulate a closeness. And it's like, yeah, the Rebbe would never speak that way. Like, I don't know, it's just-

22:51 Speaker 1 It, it was a diff- it was a different style.

22:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:53 Speaker 1 You could see in the letters.

22:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:55 Speaker 1 You could see in the letters it's a different style. But we always used to say that it, it was malkus, that the Rebbe is, uh-

23:01 Speaker 2 Right

23:01 Speaker 1 ... the Rosh Yeshiva, and it's malkus, and that's how we just understood it.

23:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. The Rebbeim were different people. They, all of them dealt with things differently. They all had different, I mean, to put it grub, they all had different personalities and different dispositions. It's just interesting. Anyway, sorry, sorry to-

23:17 Speaker 1 So my father was not at the levaya of the Frierdiker Rebbe. He couldn't make it.

23:21 Speaker 2 Right.

23:21 Speaker 1 I guess by the time he heard the news, he wasn't shayoach to make it. But-

23:24 Speaker 2 But he already considered himself a Lubavitcher at that point.

23:27 Speaker 1 Uh, already.

23:27 Speaker 2 Already.

23:27 Speaker 1 Correct. He already had shlichasin from the Frierdiker Rebbe.

23:30 Speaker 2 Right.

23:31 Speaker 1 Specific shlichasin, what to do in New Brunswick.

23:33 Speaker 2 Was he told to stay there? Was there ever a ch- time where he's like, "Okay, I, I've, I've made a f- I, I, I could move back to Montreal"?

23:40 Speaker 1 In 1960, when my oldest brother, Oliver Shalom, was 10 years old, and the rest of us were seven, five, three, I was three, so because of chinuch, he asked the Rebbe for permission to leave, because he was doing shlichas, but he wasn't officially a shliach.

23:58 Speaker 2 Right.

23:59 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe told him, "Just stay for the Yomim Noraim, and then after the Yomim Noraim you could go." And then it, he took on a whole new career when he came to Montreal.

24:07 Speaker 2 Oh, so you did, you did end up moving to Montreal.

24:09 Speaker 1 We end up moving to Montreal in 1960 when I was three, and like I said, he, my father was not at the levaya-

24:17 Speaker 2 Right

24:17 Speaker 1 ... but he was at the first farbrengen-

24:19 Speaker 2 Oh

24:19 Speaker 1 ... of the Rebbe the next year, the Yud Aleph Shvat, early Yud Aleph Shvat, Tof Shin Yud Aleph. So he came in from New Brunswick, and the night before that farbrengen, which was early Yud Shvat, so it's mentioned in Yemei Bereshis the way that a lot of the Montreal Hasidim had yechidus that night, and there was actually a general yechidus. Montreal was from the leaders of the Kisavez Kashrus and-

24:44 Speaker 2 Right

24:44 Speaker 1 ... pushing that the Rebbe should become Rebbe.

24:47 Speaker 2 And your father was involved in all of this?

24:48 Speaker 1 He wasn't so much involved in the Kisavez Kashrus, but he was involved in, in hoping that the Rebbe would become Rebbe.

24:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

24:56 Speaker 1 But after the Rebbe sort of told the Montreal group to leave when they were telling him to become Rebbe, m- many of them had personal yechidusin, including my father. So the night before the Rebbe became Rebbe, and this I heard directly from my father, and he didn't talk too much. He wasn't, he didn't tell me many stories of his interactions with the Rebbe 'cause he didn't think it was a big deal.

25:20 Speaker 2 Right.

25:20 Speaker 1 It was just a different relationship.

25:22 Speaker 2 Right.

25:22 Speaker 1 So he walked into yechidas, he told me, and he told the Rebbe, "Vos daf the Rebbe de kop veydek." It started to bother my father-

25:32 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:32 Speaker 1 ... that the Rebbe's gonna lose, lose his private life, and he told the Rebbe that the Rebbe can zitzen in a vinkel and lernen, and the moment he becomes Rebbe, that he won't have a second to himself, and he won't have a private life.

25:45 Speaker 2 So he didn't want him to be Rebbe?

25:46 Speaker 1 He didn't-- He, he wanted him to become Rebbe. He just expressed that he had pain-

25:50 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:51 Speaker 1 ... what's the Rebbe's gonna be going through.

25:52 Speaker 2 Huh, and what did the Rebbe say?

25:54 Speaker 1 Which i-it was published in Kvave Chabad after my father passed away, and a lot of people were very interested in this 'cause it was a whole different heregish that my father was expressing. Everybody was telling the Rebbe, "Become Rebbe, become Rebbe," and he was in yechidas where the whole, all, the whole group-

26:06 Speaker 2 Right

26:06 Speaker 1 ... and my father s-signed the tsavas kasherus.

26:08 Speaker 2 And what did the Rebbe say?

26:10 Speaker 1 The Rebbe answered, "Az ich vil helfn chassidim vos veln arbayten iz dos kedai."

26:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

26:16 Speaker 1 "If I have chassidim who will work, it'll be worth it."

26:19 Speaker 2 Wow.

26:20 Speaker 1 So unlike the others who he was telling them, "No, no, no," he alluded to, which the next night he spoke about at the farbrengen, and from day one, my father was a soldier in the Rebbe's army because he was very involved with the mefotsayim and any campaign that the Rebbe started.

26:36 Speaker 2 Can you unpack that a little bit? Can you unpack that story a little bit? I think it's a very important story because there's the-- It's, it's a moving story, right? But there's-- Because there, there's-- I think what's so, uh, you said people were, were surprised by it. I think w- 'cause the idea of a chassid like, um, worrying about the Rebbe, right? Especially, you know, maybe later on when the Rebbe's health, you know, and Rebbe, someone else needed to... But at that time where, you know, the, the Rebbe's fully in control, and you're gonna worry about him, ve'ebistu, you know? And if anything, you have to push him like the other people. So I think that's already surprising. But it, like you said, it's reverse. Like the, the, the chassidim who were pushing the Rebbe to be Rebbe, the Rebbe's saying like, "Because it, it, in a way makes sense. You're telling me what I need to do. Well, what about what you what about what you need to do? Like, what are you telling me what I need to do? Mind your own business, right?" And here where you're like, "You're concerned about me," then, like, there's a, there's a more healthy relationship almost where if you're concerned about me, then I, uh, then I can trust you i-in return, something like that. Do you-- What do you see in that story? It's-

27:52 Speaker 1 My father had a lot of ahavas haShem, so he, he, he just expressed the human aspect that he was concerned with that when-

28:00 Speaker 2 But why do you th- Yeah, but why do you think the Rebbe, why do you think the Rebbe reacted so much more openly to his gesture than, than, than, like you said, the other ones? He was more defensive or more-

28:14 Speaker 1 I can't answer that

28:15 Speaker 2 You don't know that

28:16 Speaker 1 I can't answer that the way-

28:17 Speaker 2 You haven't thought about it

28:18 Speaker 1 No, I never thought of it.

28:19 Speaker 2 Okay, fair.

28:20 Speaker 1 But, but it's interesting 'cause when I just-

28:22 Speaker 2 'Cause it just, it, there seems to be something about... Okay, it seems to be that, that, that like there's something sometimes gets forgotten in the whole kind of hurrah of chassidishkeit and hasgosherus. Like basic, almost like, I don't know if the word's meshichist, but basic like there's another person on the other side of the desk here, right? And if you're going to, to begin with forget about that I'm a person too, then there's, we can't, we can't work together, right? And like there's a s- there's something like you almost see like the, the Rebbe with like American chassidim or even not chassidim, there's like a certain like almost ease that he has with people that are down-to-earth and straightforward and aren't c-caught up in the... You know what I'm saying?

29:06 Speaker 1 Now, I-I'll fast-forward just to one little-

29:08 Speaker 2 Sure

29:08 Speaker 1 ... something. When I first went out of town to yeshiva, which I was 16, I went to Morristown.

29:13 Speaker 2 From Montreal?

29:14 Speaker 1 From Montreal. The first time I went out of town to yeshiva. A few months later, I was home, and I saw my father was in the middle of writing a letter to the Rebbe.

29:22 Speaker 2 Mm.

29:23 Speaker 1 And I, it caught my eye the way he addressed it. It just caught my eye, and I didn't look at the letter. I just saw the way-- And like, and I said something to my father, probab- I was probably pretty chutzpadik as a kid. He addressed-- He was writing in Yiddish, and he wrote, he addressed it. He didn't write it

29:42 Speaker 2 Huh.

29:46 Speaker 1 And-

29:47 Speaker 2 Chabad. Wow.

29:47 Speaker 1 And, and I said, "It's not the way you're supposed to write."

29:51 Speaker 2 Right. It's not, it's not, it's not formal.

29:53 Speaker 1 And he looked up at me with what I call the Archie Bunker look. I don't know if you know who Archie Bunker was.

29:58 Speaker 2 No.

29:58 Speaker 1 So Tovya leChabrach if you don't know.

29:59 Speaker 2 No, I, and I know some other nonsense from there.

30:01 Speaker 1 All right. But the, the, that look, you know? He gave me a look like, you know, like mix out. Like, "Do you know my relationship with the Rebbe?" Like it-

30:09 Speaker 2 Right

30:09 Speaker 1 ... and I backed off. But it was a certain-- He had that certain human-

30:15 Speaker 2 Uh

30:15 Speaker 1 ... relationship with the Rebbe. He, he sent Mayor Plot-Plotkin of Montreal, should live and be well. He told me that in the 1950s, before people celebrated Yud Alef Nissan, he said, "My father used to send the Rebbe a birthday card for Yud Alef Nissan with, with a note on it."

30:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

30:32 Speaker 1 And, and he said he also used to send anniversary cards to the Rebbe and the Rebbetzin. So it was a little bit different, his relationship, to the point, and that's the one which, which most people are amazed, and those who remembered it told me it was, it was phenomenal. In Tov Shin Yud day, Simchat Torah, it was upstairs, haKafes.

30:53 Speaker 2 Right

30:54 Speaker 1 And there was a table of what they called the Montrealers, even though my father was from New Brunswick, but he identified with the Montrealers.

31:00 Speaker 2 So he would come in for Tishrei

31:01 Speaker 1 He would come in for Simchat Torah.

31:03 Speaker 2 Simchat Torah

31:04 Speaker 1 And, uh, the table collapsed.

31:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:07 Speaker 1 Upstairs And when everybody was getting up, the Rebbe did not dance the first couple of years with the Roshag. He danced with older Hasidim. So-

31:19 Speaker 2 With who?

31:20 Speaker 1 I can't say. Th-those in the know will tell you who it was. I can't say, but it was with older Hasidim.

31:24 Speaker 2 Okay.

31:24 Speaker 1 But when my father got up from the pile, there was an arm on my father's shoulder, and it was the Rebbe's arm, and my father put his arm back on the Rebbe.

31:36 Speaker 2 And he that's-

31:37 Speaker 1 He grew up in Vizhnitz. He didn't have any qualms. He didn't have any doubt what to do.

31:41 Speaker 2 These, these stories don't bother me. I love these stories.

31:43 Speaker 1 So they danced. It was the Nigun of Kmohei Feaseisi before it became a song of Kmohei Feaseisi. It was just a tune.

31:50 Speaker 2 Yeah. Ai, ai, ai, ai, ai.

31:52 Speaker 1 Ai, ai, ai, ai. Forty-five minutes one-on-one they danced with the Rebbe.

31:55 Speaker 2 Really?

31:55 Speaker 1 Forty-five minutes. And they published this in Chabad when my father-

31:58 Speaker 2 Just your father and the Rebbe?

32:00 Speaker 1 Just the father and the Rebbe, and they each had a s- uh, um, a secretary.

32:02 Speaker 2 So wait, wait. So, okay, so this story's fascinating. But we haven't yet... What did your father look like? He had a full beard at this point?

32:08 Speaker 1 He, he had a beard. He used to trim it a little bit.

32:10 Speaker 2 Trim beard.

32:10 Speaker 1 But he had a beard. He had a be- He started growing a beard a-after his mother passed away. He didn't-

32:13 Speaker 2 A kapote. He was wearing a kapote.

32:14 Speaker 1 He didn't wear a kapote. No.

32:15 Speaker 2 So, so-

32:16 Speaker 1 He had a gartel, but no, no, he never put on a kapote.

32:18 Speaker 2 So a post-war Hasid, like a, like p- like a lot of, a Veltische post-war, like we s- saw them all, all over the place in Borough Park, a lot of them. Did shave, didn't shave, but a, a small black hat on Shabbos maybe.

32:29 Speaker 1 He, and he had a black hat always. He always wore a black hat.

32:31 Speaker 2 Yeah, a small black hat, a, a regular suit, and a gartel.

32:35 Speaker 1 Gart- always with a gartel.

32:36 Speaker 2 Right.

32:36 Speaker 1 Always with a yarmulke. Even in the goyische town. In the goyische town-

32:39 Speaker 2 Right

32:39 Speaker 1 ... where he owned a few businesses-

32:41 Speaker 2 Right

32:41 Speaker 1 ... there was a store that the, the, the, the market was Fri- Saturday was the busiest day of, uh, business.

32:48 Speaker 2 Right.

32:49 Speaker 1 He always closed the store.

32:50 Speaker 2 No, there were a lot of these people like this. Perl Weiss was like this for many years.

32:53 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I'm talking about here in a little goyische town.

32:55 Speaker 2 Right.

32:55 Speaker 1 So in the winter, Shabbos ends very early.

32:58 Speaker 2 Right.

32:59 Speaker 1 And he used to open the store, like, a half hour after Shabbos, and he would tell the, the customers to look in the sky, and when you see three stars, you'll know I'll soon be there.

33:10 Speaker 2 Right.

33:10 Speaker 1 So I always wanted to make a, a di- a picture or, or a children's book of a goyische town, Main Street. His store was on Main Street. And here you have Goyim looking up to see when David is gonna be coming because it, it, the Sabbath will be over.

33:27 Speaker 2 What's the urgency to buy shmatas on Motzei Shabbos?

33:29 Speaker 1 Because people came in from other cities. It was a market day.

33:32 Speaker 2 Oh.

33:32 Speaker 1 Fri- Saturday was the busiest retail day in, in the town.

33:36 Speaker 2 So he lost out.

33:37 Speaker 1 He lost out. He, he didn't care.

33:38 Speaker 2 So it was, it was real pronosa that he was losing out on.

33:40 Speaker 1 He was losing out, but he would open up. In the winter, he would open up a half hour after Shabbos.

33:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

33:44 Speaker 1 And the Goyim would be looking in the sky to see-

33:46 Speaker 2 How early is that? That's 5:00 in the evening.

33:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, 5:00 in the evening, or 5:00, 5:30, whatever it was.

33:51 Speaker 2 But is it-

33:52 Speaker 1 I always-

33:52 Speaker 2 Yeah

33:52 Speaker 1 ... would like to see an, uh, a drawing of how they would be looking up.

33:56 Speaker 2 Well, today with ChatGPT, it's a few minutes on the internet.

33:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

33:59 Speaker 2 Ask one of my grandkids.

34:00 Speaker 1 When, when he graduated, he, he had a, a number of degrees. When he graduated in New Brunswick, so a f- a few of his aunts, they all came to the graduation. He was the first one to have an education in his family, in the Dolphin family. So they all came. It was a few hundred people, but it was a Catholic-

34:15 Speaker 2 I thought your grandfather lived in Montreal.

34:17 Speaker 1 Grandfather lived in Montreal. I don't know if they were still alive, but when he graduated in the '40s-

34:22 Speaker 2 Oh, so he was already married, he graduated?

34:23 Speaker 1 No, he got married in '49.

34:25 Speaker 2 So he went as a single to New Brunswick?

34:26 Speaker 1 He was a single, yes.

34:27 Speaker 2 Ah.

34:27 Speaker 1 He was a single.

34:27 Speaker 2 I thought he went with your mother to-

34:28 Speaker 1 No. No, no.

34:30 Speaker 2 He went-

34:30 Speaker 1 He, he was single.

34:31 Speaker 2 For many years he lived by himself.

34:32 Speaker 1 And the second you hear this, it had to do with the shidduch.

34:34 Speaker 2 Oh, it's his shidduch.

34:34 Speaker 1 Second you hear this shidduch with the, with the Freidiger Rebbe, it had to do with his shidduch.

34:37 Speaker 2 His shidduch. Okay, so he went to New Brunswick by himself.

34:39 Speaker 1 By himself.

34:40 Speaker 2 Oh.

34:40 Speaker 1 And he had a, uh, he had a uncle who had hired him, and then he went on his own.

34:45 Speaker 2 So he was there all alone, a Frum Yid.

34:49 Speaker 1 All alone, Frum Yid, and he learned-

34:50 Speaker 2 Middle of nowhere Canada

34:50 Speaker 1 ... he used to sit with a Gemara in his store.

34:52 Speaker 2 Middle of nowhere Canada.

34:53 Speaker 1 Middle of nowhere.

34:54 Speaker 2 Wow.

34:55 Speaker 1 Middle of nowhere.

34:57 Speaker 2 It's, yeah.

34:58 Speaker 1 And he, he was very close to the shluchim and to the Anash in Montreal.

35:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, but yeah, but-

35:03 Speaker 1 He would come in for special occasions.

35:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, but those days, I mean, even today, when you're living in a different city and you have access with the phone and internet, you're still by yourself, uh, and physically, like physically by-

35:13 Speaker 1 But, but I'd say the family, every Sunday, 'cause they had different cities in New Brunswick, they would have a barbecue, and they would get from Glatt in Montreal.

35:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

35:20 Speaker 1 Every Thursday, the train would bring the meat-

35:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, but the-

35:22 Speaker 1 ... and the kosher food

35:23 Speaker 2 ... Shabbos he spent by himself.

35:25 Speaker 1 Se- spent by himself.

35:26 Speaker 2 Shabbos he spent by himself, and most, and the week he spent by himself. Wow. Hmm.

35:31 Speaker 1 But, uh, both n- both my parents were intellectuals. They were big readers.

35:36 Speaker 2 That's the idea.

35:36 Speaker 1 My father learned a lot.

35:37 Speaker 2 Right.

35:37 Speaker 1 So they were, you know, always, always had what to do.

35:40 Speaker 2 No, I'm not having a chamutz for -

35:42 Speaker 1 No, I'm just saying, like-

35:43 Speaker 2 It, it-

35:43 Speaker 1 ... it was just a, it was a, just a different, different way of life

35:46 Speaker 2 ... but, but it's also, like, the idea of, of frumkeit that is, is, like, individual and not dependent on... It's, it-- In Lubavitch, we kind of take for granted with the idea of shlichus, right? But even shlichus, it's like, uh, you're going married most of the time, and you're building a community. Here's the idea. Like, this has a lot-- This reminds me a lot of the stories of in Russia, the Krechmer, these people living by themselves in the middle of nowhere, Frum Yidden.

36:11 Speaker 1 So, so when he graduated, one of my great aunts, his aunt, told him, they called him Duchu. David was Duchu. They said, "Duchu, you know, the galach gives you the, the diploma," 'cause it was a Catholic university.

36:25 Speaker 2 Right.

36:25 Speaker 1 "It's, it's not nice that you wear your yarmulke when you get your, uh, diploma. Maybe-

36:32 Speaker 2 Right

36:32 Speaker 1 ... when the galach gives you the yarmulke, you shouldn't be wearing a yarmulke." My father never took off his yarmulke.

36:36 Speaker 2 Right.

36:36 Speaker 1 He said he's not going to not gonna take off his yarmulke. They all were in the audience.

36:40 Speaker 2 Right.

36:40 Speaker 1 It's a few hundred people in, in the, at the graduation. They call him up, and the galach looks at my father and he says, "We should all learn from David Teitelbaum to be proud of your faith."

36:50 Speaker 2 Huh.

36:50 Speaker 1 "And not to..." And then all the aunts were clapping And so happy.

36:54 Speaker 2 Uh.

36:54 Speaker 1 So that was his tevel. He, he didn't g- He went against the tide.

36:59 Speaker 2 Right. But but going, but going back to that relationship with, with, with, with, with the Rebbe, it's, it, it's, it's, it's, it's for sure something that I've, that I, that, that, that one notices, um, with these, with, with, with different... There's like, there is a pattern there of this kind of dynamic of- He respects Rebbe tremendously. It's not that he is mezalzel or has less tercheres for the Rebbe than, than, um, than, than, than, uh, you know, a, a, a, a strong mekushar dershvi, you know, bachar, like you said, the story of you confronting him. But, you know, it, it reminds me a lot of, um, Rabbi Zeligson was talking about his father, Dr. Zeligson, and the way Dr. Zeligson, you know, interacted with the Rebbe. And there's a lot-- There-- It seems like there are some similarities there. A very personal relationship with a massive amount of respect, like, like infinite respect almost, uh, with R- Dr. Zeligson. They were involved in stories that are incomprehensible. Like, nobody really knows what was going on there. But then, you know, then comes the next generation, and you're, you're being mechanech in yeshivas, and in your mind, to write to the Rebbe, my, my, what you say? My, my, my liebe taate-

38:13 Speaker 1 My liebe Rebbeshlite.

38:15 Speaker 2 Right.

38:15 Speaker 1 Rebbe was like f- I'm, I'm, I'm-

38:17 Speaker 2 Right

38:17 Speaker 1 ... just came out of yeshiva for a few months.

38:18 Speaker 2 What are you, a four-year-

38:19 Speaker 1 I- I'm an expert in how you're supposed to address the Rebbe.

38:22 Speaker 2 Right, but-

38:22 Speaker 1 And I said, "How do you write to the Rebbe? You're supposed to write krikus with Agmeshlite."

38:25 Speaker 2 But you didn't change your mind afterwards.

38:27 Speaker 1 Did I change my mind how I should write-

38:28 Speaker 2 Yeah

38:28 Speaker 1 ... or how my father should write?

38:29 Speaker 2 No, how you should write.

38:30 Speaker 1 Nah. I didn't change my mind how I should write, but I, I wasn't gonna mix into how my father would write.

38:34 Speaker 2 Right. So, like, the, the-- it's always that way it seems, where on one hand these people had this kind of connection, but then the next generation, um, doesn't, right? Like I remember a similar kind of episode that I saw, I may have said on the podcast before, where I was once at a meeting of Shluchim in Philadelphia back in the day, and people were talking about, you know, things ab- uh, that they heard the Rebbe said or whatever. And my zeide walked in, Harav Shemtov, and they were asking him about it. That does he know about this story? Does he know about this story? Like, what does he think about it? He said, "Look, in my days, we didn't speak so much about the Rebbe. We spoke to the Rebbe." Right? And, um, and also similarly, like I w- I would drive my grandfather around a lot, and I drove a lot of times to the oil because he-- my grandfather went to the oil multiple times a week. Um, and I, as a bachur also, I didn't notice... I was, I was taught the oil is something, you know, it's a gan zechuna, and you, you don't just go in, and you need a whole day. You know, it's a whole, a whole thing, right? And my grandfather would, would, would come to the oil and sit down and write, uh, a tzedakah, I don't know, sometimes 10 pages long. And sometimes he was taking phone calls in the middle 'cause he has a

39:54 Speaker 2 moysed that's try- You know, it, it wasn't personal stuff. It was everybody that knew my grandfather knew his phone was never off, besides for when he walked into the oil or other, you know. But I-- To me it was like, w- wait one second. They teach me this is not, this is not-

40:11 Speaker 1 A different generation.

40:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, so but, but, but so how do you see that? Like, uh, do, do you feel, do you feel that, like, you wish you could be you-- that maybe your father had a point, maybe he was right, or is it that each generation has its-

40:23 Speaker 1 It was his relationship. He wasn't a tomim.

40:25 Speaker 2 Right.

40:26 Speaker 1 He had to go to work right away.

40:27 Speaker 2 Okay, interesting.

40:28 Speaker 1 So his brother was, and then he w- made Aliyah. He went there to Israel in 1948. But it's different when you grow up in Vizhnitz, and you didn't, you weren't learning in Tomchei Temimim. And even if you had a big connection to the Rebbe and, and love for the Rebbe, but it, it was still a different relationship. One day, one, one of the yechidim that my father had-

40:50 Speaker 2 Okay

40:51 Speaker 1 ... he came in-

40:52 Speaker 2 Should we close the door?

40:54 Speaker 1 He-- One, one day In the mid-1950s, my father came in, and he put down the, his tzedakah, and the Rebbe looked at him and says, "" Let's talk Latin.

41:20 Speaker 2 Right.

41:20 Speaker 1 Now, my father, one of the subjects he taught was Latin.

41:23 Speaker 2 Oh, your father was a teacher also?

41:24 Speaker 1 He was when he came to Ca- uh, to Montreal.

41:26 Speaker 2 I see.

41:26 Speaker 1 So he was like the director at the, the beginning of the Beis Yankiv High School secular studies.

41:33 Speaker 2 I see.

41:34 Speaker 1 So he taught Latin, math, French, and history. So when he came to the Rebbe, the Rebbe knew all because he used to discuss with the Rebbe when he was, uh, taking his exams and whatever. So the Rebbe said, "Let's talk Latin." So they spoke for 40 minutes in Latin. Now, when I was sitting shiva for my father, the, the colleagues of his, then he was already teaching in public school-

41:55 Speaker 2 When was this? When did your father pass away?

41:57 Speaker 1 Nine months before Gimel Tammuz. Gimel Tishrei, 5704. So when I was sitting shiva for my father, his colleagues came over to me and they said, "You should know that your father was the only professor in Montreal who spoke Latin as a language. Years ago, it was common, maybe in the Vatican some of them knew."

42:15 Speaker 2 Right.

42:15 Speaker 1 He says, "Nobody could speak it as a language."

42:17 Speaker 2 Right.

42:17 Speaker 1 "Your father spoke it as a language."

42:18 Speaker 2 Huh.

42:19 Speaker 1 So in, in the mid-1950s, he once walked in, and the Rebbe said, "in Latin." And they spoke for 40 minutes in Latin.

42:28 Speaker 2 About what?

42:29 Speaker 1 I don't know. All I know is that the Rebbe was also fluent in Latin.

42:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

42:33 Speaker 1 And short, I had read a few years ago the, the Sefer HaToldos of the Rebbe Maharash. The Rebbe Maharash was fluent in Latin. It seems all the Rebbeim were, were-

42:42 Speaker 2 And your father enjoyed speak-- Uh, is it a thing that people like their-

42:45 Speaker 1 For some reason-

42:46 Speaker 2 ... history Latin, they enjoy it?

42:47 Speaker 1 My, my father enjoyed it. He, he enjoyed-- He, he taught French, and he enjoyed, if you were a Parisian, to speak the French way from Paris.

42:56 Speaker 2 Right.

42:56 Speaker 1 Or the gutter Québécois. Uh, Quebec, it's a total different, uh-

43:01 Speaker 2 He could, he could speak both.

43:02 Speaker 1 He could do both. He could switch it, you know-

43:04 Speaker 2 Okay

43:04 Speaker 1 ... depending who he was speaking to.

43:05 Speaker 2 No, they say Latin's a very enjoyable language. A lot of like the pretentious universities have, uh, in their valedictorian addresses at the end of the year, they have like one Latin address.

43:14 Speaker 1 So-

43:14 Speaker 2 And when you listen to it, it's a beautiful-

43:16 Speaker 1 So they used to teach in all the high schools Latin-

43:18 Speaker 2 Right

43:18 Speaker 1 ... but they dropped it.

43:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:19 Speaker 1 And, and then I only just found out a few years ago that In, when he was teaching in Bais Yaakov, Friday he taught Latin. In middle of the Latin class, he would teach Chassidis. And there was a... He got a lot of from the Rebbe what to do in Bais Yaakov because he, he was like the, he was like the, the, the living example of a Chassid in, in the Bais Yaakov school. So he had a, a lot of on the girls of the Bais Yaakov.

43:44 Speaker 2 Did he-

43:45 Speaker 1 Even though he was teaching secular subjects, but he would smuggle in Chassidis and a story of a Rebbe. He would, he would get that in during his-

43:53 Speaker 2 Did, did he, did he at, at some point feel a need to, like, go full Lubavitcher in the sense of kapote and beard or whatever?

44:02 Speaker 1 Let's, let's put it this way. He used to wear a kittel originally when I was a little kid for Pesach.

44:06 Speaker 2 Right.

44:06 Speaker 1 But then he take, he took it off. You know, we, we were like-

44:09 Speaker 2 Right

44:09 Speaker 1 ... you know, we would, we would work on him a little bit, but he, he wouldn't, uh... We weren't busy with, uh-

44:15 Speaker 2 He never, he never felt a need to, like... He, he was himself to the end.

44:19 Speaker 1 He, he was himself to the end.

44:20 Speaker 2 Hmm. All right, I don't wanna make it all about your father-

44:23 Speaker 1 Sure

44:23 Speaker 2 ... although it's fascinating. I love these kind of stories. But so, so let's move along to, uh, to, to what happens next. So you, y- you end up in yeshiva. No, so, so just to... Y- you grew up in this small town. Eventually, your parents moved to Montreal.

44:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was still three, so I have very-- a few little memories.

44:41 Speaker 2 Right

44:41 Speaker 1 But very few of them.

44:41 Speaker 2 So it didn't affect you so much to grow up-

44:43 Speaker 1 Not too much, no

44:43 Speaker 2 ... in a small town. So you grew up in Montreal, but you're being brought up as, as a Lubavitcher.

44:48 Speaker 1 Correct.

44:49 Speaker 2 Okay. Well, what, what's it like to grow up in Montreal in those days?

44:53 Speaker 1 Montreal, so we actually never moved to where the yeshiva was.

44:57 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

44:57 Speaker 1 So we would... There, there was a Lubavitcher minyan, the original Lubavitcher minyan, which at one time when the yeshiva was on Park Avenue, then it moved to Jeanne Mance. That's, you know-

45:08 Speaker 2 Runge Street

45:08 Speaker 1 ... near, near Outremont. But those, you know, those who know Montreal will know.

45:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure.

45:12 Speaker 1 So that, like, Jeanne Mance had a lot of Chassidish yeshiva, and we used to rent from b- the Belzer Girls' School for Shabbos to have the minyan.

45:20 Speaker 2 Why did your parents move there? Was there a job or just moved there on the house?

45:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, that, that's where everyone lived. Before the Rabbi Kramer built the new yeshiva-

45:26 Speaker 2 Ah

45:26 Speaker 1 ... everyone was living there-

45:27 Speaker 2 I see

45:27 Speaker 1 ... in the older neighborhood. We, we never moved.

45:29 Speaker 2 I see.

45:30 Speaker 1 And eventually, we moved to Côte Saint-Luc, which we jumped over Snowdon-

45:35 Speaker 2 Oh

45:35 Speaker 1 ... 'cause my father was transferred to Wager High School, where it was a public school with 95% Jewish kids.

45:41 Speaker 2 Oh.

45:41 Speaker 1 So and he, he wasn't driving a car, and for him to take the bus was too much.

45:45 Speaker 2 Right.

45:45 Speaker 1 So it was already 1972, a year before I went to Morristown.

45:48 Speaker 2 Right.

45:48 Speaker 1 So I didn't live there for too long. So growing up in Montreal, it was, uh... We were grade, I was grade one of Lubavitch Yeshiva when the new building.

45:57 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:58 Speaker 1 That was, uh, I think it was 1962, '63 when they opened, and we had 25 kids in our class. None of us had grandparents. Most of them were childrens, children of survivors.

46:10 Speaker 2 Right.

46:11 Speaker 1 And there was maybe three Lubavitcher boys in my class. It wa- it wasn't like it was...

46:15 Speaker 2 Right

46:15 Speaker 1 ... this, the yeshiva was attracting kids from all different backgrounds.

46:18 Speaker 2 Was it the only Frum school at the time in Montreal?

46:19 Speaker 1 There was another yeshiva, the Mirker Chassidut.

46:22 Speaker 2 Was it the Litvish?

46:22 Speaker 1 There was another yeshiva. That was the Litvish yeshiva.

46:24 Speaker 2 Okay.

46:24 Speaker 1 So Rabbi Hechtman was more involved with that one at first.

46:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh, uh-huh.

46:28 Speaker 1 But eventually he shifted over to Lubavitch.

46:30 Speaker 2 Right. But-

46:31 Speaker 1 And my father had a part of that, but we don't wanna make this about my father.

46:34 Speaker 2 Sure, sure.

46:35 Speaker 1 So I don't wanna-

46:35 Speaker 2 No, I don't mind, but I don't wanna g- I, I don't... I wanna give you the opportunity to, to, to move forward with the story. So, so y- this was basically a school of mainly Chassidisha kids.

46:45 Speaker 1 Not necessarily Chassidisha kids.

46:47 Speaker 2 Not even Chassidisha.

46:47 Speaker 1 Or kids who came from, the parents came from Frum, Frum backgrounds in, in Eur- Eastern Europe. Yeah.

46:53 Speaker 2 So why'd they come to Lubavitch and not the Litvish school?

46:55 Speaker 1 Some chose. Just Rabbi Kramer was very outgoing. He knew-- The whole town knew him.

47:01 Speaker 2 Right.

47:02 Speaker 1 They all respected him. And I guess they made a choice whether to go with the Chassidisha or the Litvish. You have to remember-

47:09 Speaker 2 Right

47:09 Speaker 1 ... somebody once wrote a book, they said two-thirds of Eastern European Jewry was ch- uh, connected to Chassidim.

47:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's true.

47:16 Speaker 1 So, so a lot of-

47:16 Speaker 2 A lot of, a lot of Litvisher are really Chassidish

47:18 Speaker 1 ... yeah, a lot of them. So for whatever reason, and Lubavitch Yeshiva had a new building. Mirker Chassidut didn't.

47:25 Speaker 2 Right.

47:25 Speaker 1 So it was, you know, it had its advantages.

47:27 Speaker 2 But my point is more that the lines were quite blurred. It wasn't like, uh, Chassidisher, Litvisher, Lubavitch here, Lubavitch not here.

47:34 Speaker 1 We knew that this one was the, the not Lubavitch, this one was the Lubavitch.

47:38 Speaker 2 But the student body was-

47:39 Speaker 1 But we knew, we knew the kids. We knew the, we knew all the kids.

47:41 Speaker 2 Right. Uh-huh.

47:42 Speaker 1 We knew. It was a small enough town that we knew-

47:44 Speaker 2 Uh

47:44 Speaker 1 ... kids from both schools. When Mirker Chassidut closed, when I was in grade 11, I went to high school. I chose to go to high school. So in secular-

47:52 Speaker 2 This is before Morristown

47:53 Speaker 1 ... before Morristown. So I had one year Bais Medrash in Montreal while I was in grade 11. Montreal, you finish in grade 11. So when Mirker Chassidut closed, the Litvish yeshiva closed, there was one year before the Yeshivas Gedola opened, which was the, the next Litvish yeshiva to open. And then nine boys from Mirker came to the yeshiva for grade 11.

48:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:16 Speaker 1 So it was, you know, small town in many ways. But Rabbi Hechtman already started the, with the yeshiva probably in 1965 even.

48:24 Speaker 2 And who were your teachers that stand out?

48:26 Speaker 1 Teachers? I mean, I could tell you my grade one

48:29 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying anybody stands out-

48:30 Speaker 1 There was Pat

48:31 Speaker 2 ... any, any, any, uh, any personalities that stand out to Montreal back then?

48:35 Speaker 1 Everyone was a personality.

48:36 Speaker 2 Okay.

48:37 Speaker 1 They all, many of them smoked in class.

48:39 Speaker 2 Ah, that wasn't, that wasn't, that wasn't-

48:40 Speaker 1 And, uh, many of them hit us.

48:41 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, but that's, uh, that's what everybody did back then.

48:43 Speaker 1 That's what, that was what it was. And, uh, but I have very good memories. Very good memories from the yeshiva.

48:49 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonial, Torah Umesora, and Atzlachon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Were you going in with your father to 770 through these years?

49:45 Speaker 1 Occasionally. Occasionally. The first time that I remember was in 1963, Havdalah, Rosh Hashanah Havdalah.

49:52 Speaker 2 Oh, you went for Rosh Hashanah.

49:54 Speaker 1 I went for Rosh Hashanah, and I met not only the Rebbe, and I had a little interaction with the Rebbe by

50:06 Speaker 2 Hmm

50:06 Speaker 1 ... Right

50:06 Speaker 2 ... so Rebbetzin Chana was different than Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka. She was a public rebbetzin.

50:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. She, she was more open, yeah.

50:12 Speaker 2 She was open. She had her place to daven in 770. She had a place by Farbrengens.

50:16 Speaker 1 Right.

50:16 Speaker 2 And after davening she would often stand outside. People would greet her and wish her a good Shabbos or a good Yom Tov, whatever it was. So my father took me and my brother over to Rebbetzin Chana, and like I told you, he wasn't shy, and he-

50:30 Speaker 1 He knew her?

50:31 Speaker 2 He knew her, and he said to her, He wished her a good year and a good Shabbos, whatever it was. It was a three-day Yom Tov, Rosh Hashana was Thursday, Friday, and he said,

50:47 Speaker 1 Mm.

50:48 Speaker 2 And Rebbetzin Chana gave us the . She said it to us-

50:52 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah

50:53 Speaker 2 ... yeah. She smiled and she said the whole

50:57 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. It's a very interesting dynamic that you had the rebbe's wife who was very private. You had Rebbetzin Chana, and then the, at the, this was also while Rebbetzin Cha- Rebbetzin Chana Dinah is still alive, no?

51:06 Speaker 2 Correct.

51:07 Speaker 1 But she was also very private.

51:09 Speaker 2 My father knew her also. My father told, told me that people would go to her for brochos.

51:13 Speaker 1 Oh, they would? Okay.

51:14 Speaker 2 Back maybe in the, the, in the '40s.

51:17 Speaker 1 Right.

51:17 Speaker 2 I can't tell you for sure what happened after that, but, um-

51:21 Speaker 1 Interesting

51:22 Speaker 2 ... this was, uh... And then when she passed away, the next year my father flew in for the levaya, for Rebbetzin Chana's levaya.

51:28 Speaker 1 Go- coming in for Rosh Hashana is something that Chassidim in general do? Like, like a Viznitzer does that?

51:34 Speaker 2 You know how it worked in Montreal? I could tell you how it worked in Montreal. If you went once a year to the rebbe, it was Yutrat.

51:40 Speaker 1 Right.

51:41 Speaker 2 That's how it was. The buses would leave-

51:42 Speaker 1 Right. That's what I'm trying to understand why your father thought about coming for-

51:46 Speaker 2 For whatever reason, he had the opportunity, and he took us, and it was something that I'll never forget. I was six years old. I was, I was closing in on seven, and I remember many, many aspects of that, uh, Yom Tov.

51:56 Speaker 1 And he took you into Yechidus as well?

51:58 Speaker 2 In the

52:01 Speaker 1 And for your bar mitzvah he brought you in for Yechidus?

52:03 Speaker 2 Yechidus, it was Yut- it was right after Yutrat HaGadol.

52:06 Speaker 1 Right.

52:07 Speaker 2 1970. My father could not be there. They would not let a 12-year-old, 'cause it was a few weeks before my bar mitzvah, 12-year-old couldn't go in his, by himself to Yechidus.

52:15 Speaker 1 You were there?

52:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. So you're-

52:17 Speaker 1 Oh, you came for Yutrat?

52:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. We always used to come for Yutrat.

52:20 Speaker 1 But your father didn't come?

52:21 Speaker 2 That, that Yutrat he didn't come.

52:22 Speaker 1 Oh, you came-

52:22 Speaker 2 I came with the school, the class.

52:24 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

52:24 Speaker 2 Everyone would come in. So Rabbi Kramer brought me into Yechidus.

52:28 Speaker 1 Ah, okay.

52:29 Speaker 2 And so the first part of the, in Rabbi Kramer's Yechidus was my Yechidus for my bar mitzvah. The rebbe asked me,

52:36 Speaker 1 I heard you a little bit.

52:37 Speaker 2 So he, he... Yeah. I said, "Yeah, the Maimer." I was very hoarse. I always used to get hoarse, especially after a New York trip.

52:42 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

52:42 Speaker 2 So they took us all over in New York. So I said, "Yeah, the Maimer." I was holding the desk, and the rebbe said, "Well-"

52:48 Speaker 1 Why were you holding the desk?

52:49 Speaker 2 I was just like-

52:49 Speaker 1 People would stand so close to you?

52:51 Speaker 2 I was that close. I was just holding onto the desk. So the rebbe said, "the Maimer." So I said the first four paragraphs of the Maimer.

52:58 Speaker 1 Right.

52:59 Speaker 2 And then the rebbe asked me questions at the end of the Maimer, and I was answering, not just my answers, but my brother taught me the Maimer with some of his Biurim, and I was answering the rebbe. And Rabbi Kramer said I did very well. All I knows I just kept on talking.

53:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:15 Speaker 2 And three-

53:16 Speaker 1 So you weren't so misspelled yet?

53:17 Speaker 2 No, I was very, uh, I was very overwhelmed. I had then Yechidus five years in a row for my birthday.

53:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

53:23 Speaker 2 13, 14, 15, 16, 17.

53:25 Speaker 1 Would you have been comfortable speaking that long when you were older?

53:28 Speaker 2 No.

53:28 Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying.

53:29 Speaker 2 No. I never, I never spoke... That was the only time I spoke in Yechidus.

53:32 Speaker 1 Huh.

53:33 Speaker 2 By my bar mitzvah. From then on, I never said a word.

53:35 Speaker 1 Why? 'Cause you weren't comfortable or 'cause you didn't-

53:37 Speaker 2 I was-

53:37 Speaker 1 ... weren't given the opportunity?

53:38 Speaker 2 I was full of fear-

53:39 Speaker 1 Huh

53:39 Speaker 2 ... in Yechidus. Very full of fear.

53:41 Speaker 1 So what ch- what changed between 12 and 13 years or 13 and 14 years old?

53:45 Speaker 2 Probably I was younger, and the rebbe asked me to say the Maimer, so I said it, you know. But if, if let's say I was-

53:52 Speaker 1 You're probably also prepared. People knew that you had to say a Maimer or a Pilpul, right? That was a, that was a custom, I think.

53:58 Speaker 2 Probably. The rebbe would often... I knew I w- I might get cut, but I wasn't fearful.

54:02 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

54:02 Speaker 2 I wasn't fearful. But I do know that in later Yechidun, you know, you would write a tzetl, and sometimes the rebbe would not address something that you wrote.

54:11 Speaker 1 Right.

54:11 Speaker 2 But if the rebbe wouldn't address something that I wrote, I would never have the chutzpah-

54:17 Speaker 1 To-

54:17 Speaker 2 ... to ask it if the rebbe didn't... And, and, and some-

54:21 Speaker 1 Pe- people did? You've heard that people did?

54:25 Speaker 2 I'm sure they did.

54:26 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

54:26 Speaker 2 But I know that I would never... If I wrote something in a tzetl and the rebbe didn't address it, I wouldn't... But I, I did notice-

54:33 Speaker 1 But, but we're talking between 13 and 14. What happened? Was it something that they taught you in yeshiva?

54:38 Speaker 2 No, because, no, because when I turned 14, the rebbe didn't ask me to say anything.

54:42 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

54:43 Speaker 2 So it was just, it was just... And as I was getting older, I guess I was learning more Chassidis. You start learning-

54:49 Speaker 1 Right

54:49 Speaker 2 ... Chassidis and this, and you start understanding more, and I was always extremely, extremely quiet. Even, like I always say now, if I would take people to dollars, 'cause I used to take people for dollars, balabatim. So now I would say things that I, I couldn't say in my younger years. I w- I would be less shy.

55:11 Speaker 1 Once you were shliach?

55:13 Speaker 2 Even when I was a shliach, I was extremely shy when I took balabatim to the rebbe.

55:17 Speaker 1 You're saying now if you went to the rebbe you would be less shy?

55:19 Speaker 2 I think I would be less shy. I think-

55:20 Speaker 1 Ah, interesting

55:21 Speaker 2 ... with age you mellow and you... For example, I'll just give you one example. The-

55:26 Speaker 1 Very, very interesting

55:27 Speaker 2 ... there was a lady who used to make our cholents. She, she was the last... Her and her husband were the last couple married by the Satmar Rov in the town of Satmar. The next day he took the train.

55:38 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

55:38 Speaker 2 The Kastner train.

55:39 Speaker 1 Right.

55:40 Speaker 2 So I took them to the rebbe for dollars.

55:42 Speaker 1 Oh, they were here in Florida?

55:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. They were here in Florida. They helped us a lot, and I introduced them, but I couldn't, I couldn't tell the rebbe she makes the cholent. I was too shy to say that.

55:51 Speaker 1 Shy or scared? Not scared. Shy or, or, or, you know, like, uh, scared is a little bit of a harsh word.

55:58 Speaker 2 I just felt it, it's not, it doesn't behoove me to, to go into such-

56:03 Speaker 1 Are you a shy guy in general? You're a shliach in Florida making events in, uh, in front... At, at, at the, at the basketball games

56:11 Speaker 2 I'm not, I'm not shy, but it was... I just felt the Rebbe's time. I, I just felt that I couldn't-

56:16 Speaker 1 So it's a deep respect for the Rebbe. It's not shy.

56:21 Speaker 2 But it wa- it was a little bit timid.

56:23 Speaker 1 Timid.

56:24 Speaker 2 And I think as you get older, you get less timid. So I always say to myself, "Now I would tell the Rebbe that she makes the challah." But then I couldn't tell it. I, I just couldn't-

56:34 Speaker 1 Uh

56:34 Speaker 2 ... get the words out of my mouth.

56:35 Speaker 1 Interesting.

56:35 Speaker 2 The Rebbe gave her, like, $13.

56:38 Speaker 1 I- is it less timid or you realize that there's a diff- like, that's not the bitul that's being looked for over here?

56:46 Speaker 2 I don't know. I think, I think with age, people are less inhibited.

56:53 Speaker 1 Because I think what's interesting, I, I'm not, I'm not looking to, to, to, to, to drive you crazy, but what, what, what, what was interesting to me, I had a similar conversation the other day, um, you know, with this guy who grew up in Bedford and Dean. Uh, you know, he was an orphan, accepted. It'll be on the podcast either before your episode or after. Um, but, you know, a- an orphan from Washington, DC, comes to Bedford and Dean for 10 years, spends... He goes every year for his birthday to Yechidas, but never becomes a Lubavitcher. He's, he's, he became a frum yid. But it was always like, you know, the Rebbe's in charge of this organization, and he's, like, the head rabbi here, and he's a very special man, clearly, and he does moysim and things that I don't understand. But I'm not... You know. And I realize that, like, you know, they say about art, for example, that you could take the most beautiful painting, and if you don't give it the right frame, people will walk by it and not pay attention to it. You could take the most beautiful music, and if you play it in the subway... They did this experiment once. I don't know if you know. They did this experiment where they took the world's top violinist and had him play in the subway of Washington City, and they videoed it, and nobody stopped for him. It's like people pay thousands of dollars to listen to this guy,

57:59 Speaker 1 and when you don't know it's an or- you don't... I say that because a lot of times there's this idea, like you said earlier about your father, that he walked into the feed of Rebbe and, like, the eyes, he wanted to run out. But what... But in the... There's also this thing where, like, some people walk into the Rebbe and th- you're 12, 13 years old, bar mitzvah. It's not... You're able to talk, right? As you get older, a lot of it is, a lot of it is based on the context and your understanding of what you're seeing in front of you. We have this impression of, you know, you saw the Rebbe and immediately uplifted, immediately moved, and, uh, not everybody, right? Right? It has a lot to do with what's going on inside of you. Right? It's, it, it's not like you saw the Rebbe and, and something happened to you automatically. So I, I think, like, that, that's what, that's what I'm, that's what I'm getting at with these questions of, like, you know, as you, a- as you get older, what happened that suddenly it's, it's more, there's more year or pacha in front of the Rebbe? Is it that, that the Rebbe changed, or is it that you understood more about who you're standing... You said you learned Chassidus. What does learning Chassidus have to do with being shy in front of the Rebbe? What does one thing have to do with the other? 'Cause you're, you're learning about what

59:11 Speaker 1 this represents, right?

59:12 Speaker 2 Correct. Correct.

59:15 Speaker 1 And maybe as you get older, like older older, you realize that the mannerisms of shyness or the mannerisms of bitul are less important than telling the Rebbe that this is who this person is because actually it's better that the Rebbe knows like-

59:29 Speaker 2 Again, I'm saying this now.

59:31 Speaker 1 I understand.

59:31 Speaker 2 That today I would tell the Rebbe that she makes the challent because maybe it would, it would give the Rebbe, like, a certain or give the lady some special feeling that, uh-

59:41 Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying.

59:42 Speaker 2 Right.

59:42 Speaker 1 Like, that's... Maybe that's the real bitul, right? So it's very interesting. Like, you know, it has a lot to do with what's going on inside of our own minds.

59:50 Speaker 2 Correct.

59:51 Speaker 1 Right. Which, which, which, r- which, which is important because especially, you know, in, in a post-Gimel Tammuz time, a lot of times it's like, well, if the Rebbe was here, X, Y, Z. If I was... If only I was there in the Yud's or the Chaf's, ev- Saying that really, I mean, maybe, I mean, to some extent of course, but it depended where you were at then too. Very interesting. Very interesting. Um, so, so you, you, you, you're talking about Yechidas. You're, you're come... You're... Or, or you're s- You're, you're, you're beginning to come into the world of Lubavitch more and more, uh, and then you eventually leave home and come to Morristown. Uh, what's that like?

1:00:35 Speaker 2 It was definitely a major change, just, just the, the environment and, uh, you get a little bit of Mashgiach here and there, and sitting by Chabadniks by Mashfiha. I happened to enjoy Melech Tzibal's Chabadniks very, very much.

1:00:52 Speaker 1 Who didn't enjoy them? There are people that didn't-

1:00:53 Speaker 2 No. His Shiurim I didn't appreciate as much as his Chabadniks-

1:00:57 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

1:00:57 Speaker 2 ... for example. His Chabadniks I enjoyed-

1:00:59 Speaker 1 His Shiurim are very dense, right?

1:01:00 Speaker 2 It just, for whatever reason, I identified much more with his Chabadniks than with his Shiurim.

1:01:05 Speaker 1 Was that in general you enjoyed the, uh, room of Chassidus and the learnings you saw with him?

1:01:09 Speaker 2 Just, no, it, it was just his mannerism by-

1:01:10 Speaker 1 Right

1:01:10 Speaker 2 ... Chabadnik was, was, uh-

1:01:12 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

1:01:12 Speaker 2 ... very special. I enjoyed Shmuely Kaber was then giving me-

1:01:15 Speaker 1 Right

1:01:15 Speaker 2 ... Shiurim.

1:01:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:16 Speaker 2 The first year I enjoyed very much. I could say that he... I could give him credit for my enjoying to learn. He gave me a-

1:01:24 Speaker 1 A shmootz learning

1:01:25 Speaker 2 ... shmootz learning, no question about it. And, uh, I enjoyed also the Mivtzoim aspect in, in, in Morristown and then later on in, in New York.

1:01:37 Speaker 1 Why did you choose to go to Morristown? That was the only yeshiva then?

1:01:39 Speaker 2 I think Rabbi Fegelstock suggested us, that we should go.

1:01:41 Speaker 1 Were there other yeshivas?

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Were there other yeshivas then to choose from back in 1973?

1:01:52 Speaker 1 Montreal didn't have a yeshiva.

1:01:54 Speaker 2 Montreal did.

1:01:54 Speaker 1 Oh, it did have a yeshiva.

1:01:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. But I think Rabbi Fegelstock wanted us to go away from home-

1:02:00 Speaker 1 I see

1:02:00 Speaker 2 ... to, to be fully immersed twenty-four/seven.

1:02:02 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:03 Speaker 2 So a bunch of us went. We actually didn't even sign up. We... They... For two days we had to go back to New York till they signed us up, 'cause we just went. We showed up and, and then, uh, we, we officially got registered and-

1:02:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, different time.

1:02:16 Speaker 2 It was a different time. Different time. And then, of course, we were exposed much more to the Rebbe's farbrengens

1:02:21 Speaker 1 Coming once a month or so

1:02:22 Speaker 2 Come in, and any time, any special event, and, uh, I got my place for f- farbrengen, which I had, uh, I had one place from when I started till for three years, and then I changed my place. I got a, a different place for farbrengen, but that was, that was that. So I, I, I was not on shlichus as a bachur. Like, uh, my yeshiva, some, some of the boys went to Seattle. I didn't go. And, uh, I stayed in, in Chovevei Torah and then 770. But from when I After-

1:02:55 Speaker 1 In those day- in those days, some bachurim would go, would be selected to go on shlichus, right?

1:02:59 Speaker 2 Correct. Correct.

1:03:00 Speaker 1 Was that like a hard thing to not be sent?

1:03:01 Speaker 2 It was hard because they split me and my best friend, Abe Perlmutter.

1:03:05 Speaker 1 Oh, he's your friend.

1:03:06 Speaker 2 So that was like a very... He w- he was shocked, and-

1:03:08 Speaker 1 Where did he go? To Seattle?

1:03:09 Speaker 2 Seattle. So we, we grew up, we went to kindergarten together. Actually, it was at America's Torah 'cause I don't think he-

1:03:15 Speaker 1 Oh, he's from Montreal

1:03:15 Speaker 2 ... he's also a Montreal boy.