Ep. 51 // "The Spiritual Revival of Chabad" w/ Rabbi Elisha Pearl

00:00 Speaker 1 There are numerous mashpiyim I can point to who I think are, like, really grappling with issues in a real way. Some grapple with issues and leave, as in they leave Chabad, they leave the system, they, you know, move into psychedelics or to, you know, call me any other name, right? But then there are others who are grappling in a real way, but that grappling leads them, um, to reclaim their tradition in a much deeper way. How can I create something real that's authentic for me, that's authentic for my talmidim? I can point to a lot of instances of, I think, genuine religious revival, um, in contemporary Chabad.

00:34 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here Motzei Shabbos. This is actually a first. I don't think I've recorded a podcast on Motzei Shabbos. So a good tov to you.

01:01 Speaker 1 Good tov.

01:01 Speaker 2 A good tov to everybody listening, even though you'll be listening on a Sunday or whichever day. But may the inspiration of Motzei Shabbos filter in through the airwaves or earphones with which you're listening. I'm sitting here with Rabbi Elisha Pearl. Are you a rabbi?

01:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I have smicha. I don't know if I'd call myself a rabbi. It depends on the context.

01:24 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

01:24 Speaker 1 In this context, I think I'm, uh-

01:26 Speaker 2 I mean-

01:26 Speaker 1 ... functioning as Elisha, not as a rabbi.

01:27 Speaker 2 Oh, there are plenty of people who don't have smicha and call themselves a rabbi.

01:31 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

01:31 Speaker 2 So, I mean, I suppose technically a rabbi at least. But Elisha Pearl. I'm sitting here with Elisha Pearl, who is the author of the book "Make Peace", uh, which is a book about the Rebbe Shlichim on Shlimus Ha'aretz.

01:45 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

01:46 Speaker 2 Is that the correct of describing it?

01:47 Speaker 1 Sure, yeah. I mean, that's the, uh, Hasidic way of describing it. The, uh, the English way of describing it would be "Strategic Guide to Lasting Peace in Israel Based on the Rebbe's Teachings".

01:55 Speaker 2 Yes. And, um-

01:56 Speaker 1 There's different registers we could speak in.

01:57 Speaker 2 Yeah, I'd like to get to it. I did read the book, um, when it came out. So, um, I read, I think, all of it, or at least, uh, maybe besides the appendices.

02:07 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

02:07 Speaker 2 But I read, I read, I read all the body, the main body of the book. I don't remember all the details, of course. Uh-

02:13 Speaker 1 Okay. But you got the general impression, the shima.

02:15 Speaker 2 The general impression. And, um, yeah, I don't know if, I don't know if, if, if this is a conversation to, like, go into the details of it, but I think the, the kind of the approach and the how you, how one attempts to reconcile the Rebbe's view of it with, with, uh, quote-unquote, "down-to-earth reality"-

02:34 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

02:34 Speaker 2 ... or geopolitics or real politic, you know, which I think you do in the book. You talk a little, a lot about real politics-

02:39 Speaker 1 Sure

02:39 Speaker 2 ... and stuff like that. Um, you know, that, that to me is a, is just an example in a way. I mean, it's a very, it's a very vibrant example and a very relevant example today, or at least may-maybe a little bit less today, but certainly last year was much more, much more in the, um, you know, what people were talking about.

03:00 Speaker 1 Right. So but just saying that, I mean, last year it's what people were talking about, but, uh, it's very, very much relevant to what's going on on the ground. I mean, we're recording this, um, a week after the fall of Syria.

03:09 Speaker 2 Right.

03:10 Speaker 1 Um, and, you know, I also, I've also been zecher to live for the past two years in Gush Etzion in the Har Yehuda.

03:15 Speaker 2 Right.

03:15 Speaker 1 Right? So it's very, very relevant to what's going on on the ground.

03:17 Speaker 2 You, you sign off the book from Gush.

03:19 Speaker 1 Yes, exactly.

03:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

03:20 Speaker 1 I think I signed off from the Judean Hills. But, uh, Seder Umdach that gets signed off-

03:25 Speaker 2 Trolling, trolling

03:25 Speaker 1 ... it gets, it gets signed there as Gush Etzion.

03:26 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Shmuly told me, Shmuly, my cousin Shmuly Offson said that you were in Gush, and then in the book it's Judean Hills.

03:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

03:32 Speaker 2 I like that. It was a nice troll.

03:35 Speaker 1 It's not trolling. It's, uh, asserting our right to the land, you know?

03:39 Speaker 2 No, but you're writing a book about strategic peace in Israel.

03:44 Speaker 1 Sure.

03:44 Speaker 2 And you're writing it from, um... You're basically saying, "I'm in the place that many of you don't want me to be in." That's kind of the point.

03:52 Speaker 1 Sure.

03:53 Speaker 2 So it's like a meta-

03:53 Speaker 1 A meta line

03:54 Speaker 2 ... a meta comment.

03:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:55 Speaker 2 A meta comment, and what we call today a troll. But that, but that, that's good.

04:00 Speaker 1 Okay.

04:00 Speaker 2 I think it's a kinda...

04:04 Speaker 1 It, it, it, it's all, it's all a function of how you look at things, right? I mean, trolling is coming, I think, with a certain, uh, a certain point, like a certain, uh, attempt to not take things seriously, right? Here, I'm taking things seriously. I won't call it hyperreal as opposed to trolling.

04:16 Speaker 2 I think trolling is very serious.

04:17 Speaker 1 Yeah?

04:17 Speaker 2 I think trolling is a very serious enterprise.

04:19 Speaker 1 Hmm.

04:19 Speaker 2 And I, I, I protest on behalf of, of, of-

04:22 Speaker 1 All the trolls

04:22 Speaker 2 ... trolls, including myself-

04:24 Speaker 1 Professional, professional trolls.

04:25 Speaker 2 Well, well, you see, first of all, you could be a professional troll, which already shows you it's something serious. No, but trolling, trolling is, I think, from what I understand, is, is a very serious enter- a very serious thing to basically in a j- in a, with c- with comedy or with sh- when it, str- strategy-

04:43 Speaker 1 Hmm

04:43 Speaker 2 ... getting people to reveal themselves in ways that they wouldn't otherwise.

04:47 Speaker 1 Hmm.

04:48 Speaker 2 So you, like, say a comment that kind of elicits a response- ... that, like-

04:53 Speaker 1 Yeah

04:53 Speaker 2 ... you know, like it, it, it's being provocative in a way that, that kind of gets your desired effect.

05:00 Speaker 1 Hmm.

05:01 Speaker 2 But, like, in a clever way. That's, that's what I think it is.

05:04 Speaker 1 Got it. Okay.

05:06 Speaker 2 Being, being obnoxious and being aggressive is not trolling. That's just being a schmuck.

05:09 Speaker 1 Right.

05:10 Speaker 2 Right? Trolling is like you say something in a way that people, like, don't know what to do with it, and they kind of react to it in a way that's at once predictable and hilarious.

05:19 Speaker 1 Hmm. Hmm.

05:21 Speaker 2 Anyway, um, so, um, no, I, I, I think I, I, I... My point was that, like, I think, you know, because people's attention span is so kind of, or people's bandwidth is narrow and overloaded with all kinds of things going on-

05:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

05:37 Speaker 2 ... um, you know, I, I think last year was more dominated by Israel, the, the, the question of Israel's survival-

05:45 Speaker 1 Right

05:45 Speaker 2 ... and in existential terms. I don't think people are thinking about it that way today.

05:50 Speaker 1 Okay. At, at least not in America.

05:51 Speaker 2 Right. Well, in Israel-

05:51 Speaker 1 I mean, the Jews in Israel are thinking about it very much.

05:53 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

05:53 Speaker 1 But today in America-

05:54 Speaker 2 I mean in America

05:55 Speaker 1 ... peop-people have moved on to the election cycle.

05:56 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes. No, they also-

05:58 Speaker 1 The administration-

05:58 Speaker 2 ... I think they feel, and I think they feel that Israel is out of the, out of the woods in the sense of, like, existential crisis. But whatever, we could get to that. But whe-whether I'm right or wrong, I feel like the, the, the application of The Rebbe's insights or the Rebbe's perspective to reality or, you know, to the current day is not just limited to this one example.

06:25 Speaker 1 Sure.

06:25 Speaker 2 Right? Right? It's a general question of how do you apply it? Um, is it, you know... I think we'll get to, let-let... we'll get to it. I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna shortchange you and, and-

06:35 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

06:35 Speaker 2 ... force you to answer it on one foot. Um, but s- but let's begin, let's begin with who you are.

06:42 Speaker 1 Sure.

06:42 Speaker 2 I have no i- I have no y- I have no idea who you are, and I've let you into my office. Uh, so I mean, that's just because I trust Shmully.

06:50 Speaker 1 Uh-huh, yeah.

06:50 Speaker 2 So if anything happens, it's his fault.

06:51 Speaker 1 Okay. Bechal, bechal, I feel like I'm, uh, connect with the Avsin clan through Shmully, through Levi, through the, uh, the, the broader Sichlings family. It was close. But, uh-

07:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, they're good people

07:02 Speaker 1 ... yeah, mamash. Um, yeah, so, um, who am I? I'm not sure, like, where to, where, where to begin, where to start with that question. Um...

07:11 Speaker 2 Um, where do you, where do you, uh, how did you enter into this Lubavitch Parsha?

07:18 Speaker 1 Oh.

07:18 Speaker 2 Are you born a Lubavitcher?

07:19 Speaker 1 Okay, so, okay, so that, that's actually an interesting story. So I, I had, I, I entered into this Lubavitch Parsha, um, in the, uh, late '80s.

07:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:27 Speaker 1 Um, my father grew up as a conservative Jew, like his mother grew up, uh, Shmer, uh, with, uh, Shabbos and kashrus. His father, um, this is my grandfather, um, his family had stopped with Shabbos and kashrus, were still traditional, so they... My father grew up in a conservative shul, um, you know, going to a Young Judea, the, uh, the Cha- the, uh, the Cheila. Uh, but still, his, uh, his parents', uh, trajectory and orientation was to raise children who would, um, follow the American dream. So my father, you know, following the American dream, uh, went to Cornell University.

07:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:59 Speaker 1 Um, and there in the late '80s, um, he met Rabbi Eli and Chana Silberstein, um, on, I believe, their first year of shlichus, um, at Cornell University.

08:07 Speaker 2 In Ithaca.

08:07 Speaker 1 In Ithaca, yeah.

08:08 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:08 Speaker 1 And he was their, uh, either their first or second Bal Teshuva.

08:12 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

08:12 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah. So that's, uh, that's the connection with fathers as my father was there, then he was, he had a job in Syracuse, so he met, uh, Yaakov Tuvia Rappaport.

08:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:19 Speaker 1 And then he went to, uh, Hadara Torah in Morristown, and, uh, had the whole, uh, the whole Vahl- Bal Teshuva vibe of the late '80s and, uh, early '90s.

08:27 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:28 Speaker 1 Um, and my mother actually, um, met, uh, Shlomo Brebasky, um, in the late '80s when he was a, for one year, a shliach in Atlanta, Georgia before he became a famous, uh, meat packer.

08:40 Speaker 2 Right.

08:40 Speaker 1 Um, yeah.

08:41 Speaker 2 Famous for other reasons too.

08:42 Speaker 1 Was that?

08:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:43 Speaker 1 Um, yeah, famous for, for, for, for, um, Emunah v'Bitachon Guila.

08:47 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:47 Speaker 1 Right? Which is, uh, a, a, uh, a whole different story. They're different, uh, yeah, different, different shluchim than the Shluchus-

08:52 Speaker 2 Right

08:52 Speaker 1 ... uh, the great Shlomo Brebasky makapanim at a very early stage of his Shluchus. He was, um, the chair of my, uh, my, my mother-

09:00 Speaker 2 Right

09:00 Speaker 1 ... um, and my uncle.

09:01 Speaker 2 Interesting.

09:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. So that, that, that was the, uh, Chabad, uh, the Chabad connection there.

09:06 Speaker 2 So you grew up in a family of Chabad Bal Teshuvas-

09:09 Speaker 1 Exactly

09:09 Speaker 2 ... essentially?

09:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

09:10 Speaker 2 Where is that?

09:11 Speaker 1 Um, so where'd I grow up?

09:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:12 Speaker 1 Um, oh, so that, that, that's also interesting story. Um, so I grew up in Flatbush. I mean, my parents had been in Crown Heights, but then, you know, Crown Heights in the early '90s, uh, was a, uh, very tumultuous place. Um, so they, uh, they-

09:23 Speaker 2 So don't, don't speak in, uh, euphemisms here. You're talking about the riots? You're talking about the Mishichism?

09:27 Speaker 1 No, no, I'm talking Mishichism.

09:28 Speaker 2 Uh-

09:28 Speaker 1 Meaning, meaning my parents got married, um, in-

09:30 Speaker 2 You, you like how I- ... how I, how I made those options?

09:33 Speaker 1 Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, the, the, the riots is before my parents got married, meaning by the time they got married, which is in, uh, '90s-

09:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

09:39 Speaker 1 ... um, things, uh, you know, quieted down a little bit. No, but the mid, the, the, uh, what's it called? The whole Mishichism was very, um... I don't know. I mean, my parents still had, still had a connection. You know, they'd, they'd be in Crown Heights the whole time. My mother was working in Crown Heights, but it was just very, you know, very sore, very, uh, very stormy. Um-

09:54 Speaker 2 What was their problem with it? They didn't buy it?

09:56 Speaker 1 Um, how do I, um-

09:58 Speaker 2 I mean, I don't want to... I, uh, if you don't wanna talk about your parents-

10:01 Speaker 1 Sure, sure, sure

10:01 Speaker 2 ... I, I understand.

10:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, meaning... I don't know. I think, I think it just, uh, it was, yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, respect my parents' privacy. But yeah, just like the... I, I can imagine. It's, uh, it's a very tumultuous thing, you know? The, like there's, there's a lot going on.

10:14 Speaker 2 Right.

10:14 Speaker 1 Um, you know, people are telling you say this, say that. It's, uh, you know, it's very, very overwhelming.

10:18 Speaker 2 Very interesting.

10:19 Speaker 1 You know?

10:19 Speaker 2 So, so did they, did they... When they left Crown Heights, did they also leave, like, Lubavitch?

10:24 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Meaning, uh, you know, we had, uh, pictures of Reb Mendel in the house, loads of, uh-

10:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

10:28 Speaker 1 ... Chabad Chassidam.

10:29 Speaker 2 Very interesting.

10:30 Speaker 1 Um, we actually were very involved in the Nash community started by Yosef Moss in Flatbush, Beis Nachman of Flatbush.

10:36 Speaker 2 Okay. Oh, yeah.

10:36 Speaker 1 Which went through a lot of, uh, different, uh, Gilgulim and, uh, Shluchis. But our makapanims actually even started-

10:41 Speaker 2 No, I know some of his kids, yeah.

10:42 Speaker 1 What was that?

10:43 Speaker 2 I think I know some of his kids.

10:44 Speaker 1 I mean, it's, um, you know, Chaim Moss from Rebbe Drive. No, not Rebbe Drive, sorry, um, Rebbe Responsa.

10:48 Speaker 2 No, no, I, I think I know... My wife I think is friends with one of his daughters.

10:52 Speaker 1 Hmm. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. So whatever it is, actually there, so I started at Lubavitch Yeshiva, um, on Ocean Parkway, but that was, uh, that was a little bit of a... You know, again, Lubavitch in the '90s was, uh, l- um, less Meshorrer than, less Meshorrer than it is today.

11:06 Speaker 2 Right.

11:06 Speaker 1 Right? So if I was like, you know, this is like, uh, pretty, pretty, pretty wild stuff, so my parents, uh, sent me to, uh, Chaim Berlin. So I grew up going to, uh, to Chaim Berlin.

11:14 Speaker 2 I love it.

11:14 Speaker 1 Um, you know, so Ch- you know, Chaim Berlin during the week, you know, Chabad Shul on Shabbos, you know, that, um, you know, learning the Chumash, you know, in the Chabad Shul during the week.

11:22 Speaker 2 Flatbush in general. Flatbush in, Flatbush it seems to me in general is probably like the last, I don't know the last, but it's, it's one of the last, like, holdouts of m- melting pot Judaism today it feels.

11:34 Speaker 1 Mm. Um-

11:36 Speaker 2 There's, there's Chassidishe, there's Litvish, there's Syrian, there's like-

11:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, there's, there's like a whole bunch of Lubavitch killers. You have, you know, Reb Rosa-

11:44 Speaker 2 Right

11:44 Speaker 1 ... Reb Digler.

11:44 Speaker 2 You have everybody. I... Like, where else do you have such a wide-

11:49 Speaker 1 Monsey, Pomona.

11:50 Speaker 2 Yeah, Pomona's suburban though. Everybody's in their own enclave. It's not-

11:53 Speaker 1 Right, right, right. You're saying where as in Flatbush you could have like one-

11:54 Speaker 2 Right, right, right

11:55 Speaker 1 ... you could have one block and like on four corners of the block-

11:57 Speaker 2 Yeah

11:57 Speaker 1 ... you have like Vizhnitz, Modern Orthodox, Yeshivish, Lubavitch.

12:00 Speaker 2 I was filming a few weeks ago by a Syrian family.

12:04 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:05 Speaker 2 And it was Erev Shabbos. It was a Friday morning, so I wanted to bring home something from, from Flatbush for my kids, like, uh, something b- uh, bakery. The Syrian family sent me to Shloime's Bakery.

12:16 Speaker 1 Mm. Right, right, right

12:18 Speaker 2 So what I'm saying-

12:18 Speaker 1 Syrians and Shlimes, yeah

12:19 Speaker 2 You see what I'm saying? Like-

12:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:20 Speaker 2 ... so I, I don't know that you have that anywhere else.

12:24 Speaker 1 Beit Shemesh.

12:26 Speaker 2 Okay. So I don't know Israel well, but, I mean, Israel in general is the melting pot of Jews. That's-

12:30 Speaker 1 Right. For sure

12:31 Speaker 2 ... that's the premise of Israel anyways. But although on some ha- on the other hand, it's very segregated.

12:37 Speaker 1 It, so, so, so it depends, meaning let's say a place like, uh, you know, Gush Etzion, right, is not, is not such a melting pot, but Beit Shemesh you have literally, you know, mikol kvei ha'keset or like, uh, Yerushalayim, Tel Aviv.

12:47 Speaker 2 Right. But Flatbush... No, I, I only bring that up not as like a, not as a random point of American Jewish history-

12:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

12:54 Speaker 2 ... but more, you know, you're describing being a Lubavitch kid in a, in studying Chaim Berlin. It's interesting.

13:00 Speaker 1 Right. And, and, and not only that, by the way, like all the kids from Beis Medrash Menachem Mendel, you know, were, that were either going to Chaim Berlin or to the Cheder.

13:06 Speaker 2 Beis Medrash Mendel is, is a shul where you go.

13:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:09 Speaker 1 Right. So, I mean, you had a whole, a whole bunch of kids, you know, who are like Lubavitch families but going to, to Sholom Ech. And A, because it was closer, but B, also perhaps 'cause it was more stable at the time.

13:19 Speaker 2 Look, um, you mentioned, you mentioned Shmuel Levi Afsin.

13:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

13:23 Speaker 2 My, my father and their father both went, I'm sure you know this, they both went to Yeshivah Mesivta in Tels, Tels Chicago.

13:30 Speaker 1 I didn't know.

13:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:31 Speaker 1 Fascinating.

13:32 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:32 Speaker 1 Even so, no, no.

13:33 Speaker 2 Yeah.

13:34 Speaker 1 Wow.

13:34 Speaker 2 I mean, I know for sure my father, you know, their, their father, Reb Ben Alav Hashalom, um, is just a couple years older than my father, and pr- he certainly went to a non-Lubavitch Mesivta. I don't know if it was Tels Chicago.

13:45 Speaker 1 Very, very interesting.

13:47 Speaker 2 Yeah. The Afsin boys went to, to Tels.

13:50 Speaker 1 Mm.

13:51 Speaker 2 For Mesivta, and then they went, ended up going to Morristown, wherever, but-

13:55 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

13:55 Speaker 2 ... Montreal, I don't know. But I followed to Morristown. But, um, yeah, so I'm, I'm familiar with that kind of, uh, at least one generation removed from, you know, being a Lubavitcher in a non-Lubavitch environment. Of course, I grew up on Hong Kong-

14:12 Speaker 1 Right

14:13 Speaker 2 ... where, um, it wasn't you know, it wasn't Ha- I wasn't studying in Chaim Berlin.

14:19 Speaker 1 Right.

14:19 Speaker 2 I was, I was going to Carmel School, and my friends were, were mostly Jewish, uh, but, but, but not at all religious.

14:27 Speaker 1 Mm.

14:28 Speaker 2 But-

14:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, ra-radically different experience.

14:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and I, and I, I think, I think there's, I think there's... And this, we, I had my father on the podcast, and, and this is something that we spoke about at least towards the end of the podcast. When you're not, you know, when you're surrounded by people like you-

14:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

14:43 Speaker 2 ... some of the, like, some of the most important questions are answered or you think are answered preemptively, so you don't even ask them. Like, "Why am I this way? Why do we do the..." 'Cause that's where everybody is. "Why do we do things this way?" 'Cause that's where everybody does. It's a norm, right? So you don't even ask. But when you're surrounded by people different to you, you have to ask those questions.

15:01 Speaker 1 Hundred percent, and people are asking those questions of you.

15:03 Speaker 2 Right.

15:03 Speaker 1 And you're, you're othered, so you have to a-

15:05 Speaker 2 Right

15:05 Speaker 1 ... I think contrast often creates depth.

15:07 Speaker 2 Yes. Precisely. And, and then you have to, you have to grapple with those questions in a way that, uh, you know, that, that forces for, forces very important answers and very import- at the very least important thoughts and, and conversat-

15:21 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

15:21 Speaker 2 ... you know, conversations.

15:22 Speaker 1 Internal conversations, external conversations.

15:24 Speaker 2 Exactly. Exactly. You know, w- why are we this way when nobody around us is like us?

15:28 Speaker 1 Right.

15:28 Speaker 2 Right? I mean, I, I remember as a kid asking that to my parents all the time. Like, "Why are we Shluchim? Why are we this when everyone around us is not like this? Why do we do this when every..." You know, and you're, as a kid, you're trying to make sense of the world, and when the world around you is so different to you, it's, it's, it, the questions are just in your face.

15:47 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Although I think Hong Kong and Charedi Brooklyn are so different because in Hong Kong the con- the contrast is why am I Jewish or why am I a Shliach in a sea of non-religious and, uh, non-Jewish people?

15:59 Speaker 2 Yes.

15:59 Speaker 1 Whereas in Charedi Brooklyn, you know, I think growing up in Flatbush where you're like your next door is Borough Park, you know?

16:06 Speaker 2 Right.

16:06 Speaker 1 And then you're going to Crown Heights or Williamsburg as like, uh, close by.

16:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

16:10 Speaker 1 It's like, why, why are we Lubavitch as opposed to Bobov, as opposed to Litvish? Why do we follow these Minhagim, you know, where the Litvish kids in c- in class are following-

16:17 Speaker 2 Fair. Fair

16:18 Speaker 1 ... uh, following different things. And there's almost a certain, I think, um, like fascinating tunnel vision, um, that you get, uh, with the kaleidoscope of, uh, of different Jewish options. There's almost like, I think a, uh, narcissism of small differences that develops, um, in these, uh, in these hyper-variegated Charedi communities. Which is, which is on the one hand a beautiful thing, but on the other hand also a myopic thing.

16:41 Speaker 2 Um, I think you think that 'cause you grew up around them.

16:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:45 Speaker 2 Like, uh, you think there's small differences 'cause you grew up around them, and it's true. It's true. At the end of the day, you know, the, you keep Shulchan Aruch, you believe in, you know, your Ikrimun are the same.

16:56 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:56 Speaker 2 And there's a lot to, there's a lot more in common to use that kind of platitude. There's a lot more in common than, than, than there is differences. But a Lubavitcher growing up in Crown Heights does not feel that it's s-small differences. They think it's all differences.

17:12 Speaker 1 Radical differences. Okay.

17:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes. I mean, that is... Look, I mean, not to oversimplify and not to speak for other people, I, I, I don't assume stupidity on behalf of everyone that I disagree with, you know? There are a lot of smart people, uh, that, that, that think things that I don't believe in or I don't think are right or that... You know, but like when you, when you, when you... The whole Mashiach thing-

17:38 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

17:39 Speaker 2 ... is the ultimate, in many ways, identity question. Like, 'cause it basically-

17:44 Speaker 1 When you say the Mashiach thing, clarify.

17:45 Speaker 2 Right

17:45 Speaker 1 Meaning the Messianism.

17:46 Speaker 2 The Rebbe's Mashiach.

17:47 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

17:48 Speaker 2 Right? Rebbe's Mashiach as a fact basically says, "Okay, so this is where Judaism is heading."

17:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:54 Speaker 2 There's only one, there's only one, like-

17:57 Speaker 1 Possible option.

17:58 Speaker 2 Yes. And it's very specific.

18:00 Speaker 1 Mm.

18:01 Speaker 2 That does segregate you. It's not... I mean, if you believe that, that's not a small difference.

18:07 Speaker 1 Sure.

18:07 Speaker 2 That's an everything difference. Now, you could say once Mashiach comes, then all Jews will accept that person as Mashiach, and then we'll all be the same.

18:15 Speaker 1 Right.

18:15 Speaker 2 But until that happens, you're talking about the most fundamental difference.

18:19 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

18:20 Speaker 2 Right?

18:20 Speaker 1 I hear, I, I hear, I hear that. I hear that.

18:22 Speaker 2 There's no room, there's no room, there's no room for option B.

18:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

18:27 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, you know, that that's-- I think that's in many ways for people that are, that are more skeptical or, or don't agree with that at all, including myself-

18:36 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

18:36 Speaker 2 ... um, you know, uh, that, that's, that's always the hesitation about it. Like, like you, you are, you are, you are taking a massive... Th-there's no-- this is, this is a ver-- this is the ultimate radical move of, of, of Jewish belief, right? Because you-

18:54 Speaker 1 You're saying it's

18:56 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's no, there's no way out. Like-

18:57 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

18:57 Speaker 2 ... like, like you're putting all your chips on the table and, and there's no, there's no way out. There's no way out. There's no -- 'cause there's no space for another-- no space for something else.

19:07 Speaker 1 Okay, but I think on a certain level it's all, you know, it's all theoretical until it happens, meaning you're, you're asserting that this is the case, and you're pushing in that direction, but at the end of the day, they're engaged in Torah mi'tes, you're engaged in Torah mi'tes. Um, I don't, you know, I, I, I think that the r-he rhetoric of, um, of denigrating or othering, um, other sects of Judaism is in m-my, in my opinion, in my experience, I think it's, it's something of a, of, of a fringe in Lubavitch. I think the mainstream of Lubavitch today-

19:34 Speaker 2 Right

19:34 Speaker 1 ... is generally very accepting, um-

19:36 Speaker 2 Fair

19:36 Speaker 1 ... of other, of other Jewish groups. There is a certain degree of elitism, right? But, uh, in terms of like accepting and embracing other Jewish groups, um, I think that's, uh, you know, pretty-

19:46 Speaker 2 I-

19:46 Speaker 1 ... pretty common

19:47 Speaker 2 ... I think that's only because the, the rhetoric, like you said, you used the word rhetoric.

19:53 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

19:54 Speaker 2 A lot of these ideas, and we don't have to focus on Moshiach 'cause I know like that, that it's just, uh, it's alt-- the alt-- like it just, it, it ticks people off one way or another.

20:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

20:03 Speaker 2 Although it should be discussed. I just don't, I just don't want to, uh, I, I wanna talk about that. I don't wanna talk about it like as a spectator. I would wanna talk, you know-

20:11 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

20:11 Speaker 2 ... directly and let someone, someone lay out the case. But it has become more and more rhetorical, right? And so, yes-

20:21 Speaker 1 Explain. What do you mean?

20:23 Speaker 2 Well, what you're saying means that there's no room for anything else.

20:28 Speaker 1 Mm.

20:29 Speaker 2 But you're-- at the same time, what you're, what you're, what you're arguing is that in reality, there is room for other people.

20:37 Speaker 1 For sure.

20:38 Speaker 2 Okay. That means that there's a split, in my view, between what you're saying. You're, you're, you're, you're... 'Cause it's not said as a theory. It's not said as a, as, as a hypothetical. It's not said as an aspiration.

20:48 Speaker 1 Mm.

20:48 Speaker 2 It's said as a fact. So if you're saying it as a fact, how is there room for anything else?

20:52 Speaker 1 Okay, but I don't, I don't think that's the mainstream focus in Chinukh and Chabad-Lubavitch today. I mean, I guess as, as a, as a-

20:58 Speaker 2 Because it becomes more rhetorical, it becomes something that you just say without realizing the underlying or the attending, the attendant things, the, the attendant, uh-

21:10 Speaker 1 Consequences of the belief.

21:11 Speaker 2 Yes. Correct.

21:11 Speaker 1 Or the, okay, or the, of the assertion.

21:13 Speaker 2 Correct.

21:13 Speaker 1 Okay.

21:13 Speaker 2 You're making an, you're making an assertion. You're, it... As it becomes more and more rhetorical as opposed to like, you know, it, it becomes like something that you say, and th-that's what rhetoric is very often. Rhetoric is, when we call something rhetoric, it's like it's, it's words that have become detached from their implications.

21:32 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay. So may-maybe I guess-

21:33 Speaker 2 That's how you went

21:33 Speaker 1 ... no, so mayb-maybe as, as, as a, as a brief aside, you know, um, so I've, uh, you know, i-in, in the wake of, uh, of writing this book, I've been going on a little bit of a book tour, um, which-

21:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

21:43 Speaker 1 ... has been a lot of fun. But, um, one, one, uh, you know, positive outcome, at least for me, um, is getting to go around, uh, to Chabad yeshivas, um, all around, at this point, the Northeast, but, uh, Bezrat Hashem, um, over the course of the next, uh, few weeks and months, uh, the United States, right? And I would say the overwhelming, you know, sense I'm getting in, you know, where, uh, Chabad and Lubavitch are holding today, meaning I've, you know, uh, I'm, I'm now thirty-one, so I've, I've, I've gotten to see a lot of, a lot of evolution.

22:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:12 Speaker 1 I mean, I would say like today, like they're, they're being mechanech kids in a, let's say, a very, um, Hasidish way.

22:18 Speaker 2 Mm.

22:18 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, let's say, you know, every, uh, Yom Im T'paryah is a big deal. You know, farbrengen for Yud Dalet Kislev.

22:24 Speaker 2 Right.

22:24 Speaker 1 And, uh, and, and all that. It's more the Chinukh is that you're, they're being mechanech kids and that we're, we're Hasidim of the Rebbe. We're hyper-in to the Rebbe's yontif. But it's more that we're, we're about bringing Moshiach. We're hyper-in to the Rebbe's yontif and like, but it's, but it's not, um, placing the, uh, let's say messianic fervor that was, uh, characteristic of the late '90s front and center. That's, that's, th-that's very much, I think, been sublimated into we're Hasidim of the Rebbe. We're bringing the geulah.

22:52 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

22:52 Speaker 1 We're doing the Rebbe's yontif, and perhaps there's a, um, you know, I don't know, I think a much more, um, sodadic, um, orderly, um, tokenadic one could say-

23:03 Speaker 2 Right

23:03 Speaker 1 ... uh, way of doing that than the chaotic energy, which I think was much more present and which, you know, I, um, I myself experienced, you know, in my, uh, you know, childhood-

23:11 Speaker 2 Right

23:11 Speaker 1 ... running around Seven Seventy.

23:12 Speaker 2 Right.

23:12 Speaker 1 You know?

23:14 Speaker 2 This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is a Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlah Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over three hundred years to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding on to a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad house and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. I'm not arguing that, that everybody's full of crap.

24:02 Speaker 1 Okay.

24:02 Speaker 2 No, that's not, that's not my argument. My argument is that this specific kind of, this specific belief that, that, that people still talk about-

24:12 Speaker 1 Mm

24:13 Speaker 2 ... as like, like a throwaway kind of like th-this is what, what I believe, you can, you can push and see. No, do you really believe it?

24:20 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

24:21 Speaker 2 Because these are the implications of it, right?

24:23 Speaker 1 Right.

24:23 Speaker 2 And, and do you really, do you really, do, do you really, are you really ready to go where it takes you?

24:29 Speaker 1 Mm.

24:29 Speaker 2 And that's where you find out, is it, you know, is it a belief or is it rhetorical?

24:33 Speaker 1 Mm.

24:34 Speaker 2 That's what I mean.

24:34 Speaker 1 Got it.

24:35 Speaker 2 And, and I, you know, I, I think that, I think that these kind of things, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not uber focused on the Moshiach thing 'cause I, I agree with you that by and large, the Moshiach thing has, has receded as a, as a real kind of like, you know, who is Moshiach is not really front and center of most Lubavitchers, at least in America. I know Israel's a whole different-

25:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah

25:02 Speaker 2 ... a whole different world, but-

25:02 Speaker 1 Wow. Is-

25:03 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:03 Speaker 1 ... Israel's a massive segment we'll get to.

25:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. But America is, I, I don't think it's like a, like a central factor of Lubavi- most Lubavitchers' identity. But I think, I think it is a good example of, in general, Lubavitch beliefs, in general b- Jewish beliefs, beliefs in ge- in, in general, right?

25:20 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

25:21 Speaker 2 Like, beliefs can be... Especially when they, when they, like, you know, to use the kind of techy term, when they're scaled, when they're sc-

25:30 Speaker 1 Mm.

25:31 Speaker 2 When it goes from what one person believes to what a thousand people believe to what ten thousand believe-

25:35 Speaker 1 They evolve

25:35 Speaker 2 ... or a hundred thousand, beliefs-

25:37 Speaker 1 The meaning changes

25:38 Speaker 2 ... beliefs, they lose kind of their organic roots-

25:40 Speaker 1 Mm

25:40 Speaker 2 ... and they become rhetoric. They can become rhetoric.

25:44 Speaker 1 Right.

25:44 Speaker 2 Right? They can, they can become like, "This is what we believe."

25:47 Speaker 1 Right. Oh, so-

25:48 Speaker 2 Right? And like, and like once you've, you know-

25:50 Speaker 1 Then a big aside is that you, is that w- with the, if the, if those are the slogans, I think that-

25:54 Speaker 2 Right

25:54 Speaker 1 ... that everyone has the, um, obligation to, to dig into the slogan-

25:59 Speaker 2 Right

25:59 Speaker 1 ... and figure out what does this in fact mean? What does this mean for me?

26:02 Speaker 2 Right.

26:02 Speaker 1 And how can I make it authentic?

26:03 Speaker 2 Right. Precisely. Precisely, right. And, and I think as, in general, beliefs in general, uh, you know, the, there was a whole Machlokes when it came to the Rambam and his Ikrim, I think m- mainly for this reason. Like, you know, when you're codifying a belief system, the more beliefs that you codify- ... I think many people felt like the more you're kind of, you're, you're making Yiddishkeit very rigid.

26:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

26:25 Speaker 2 But you know, like, there were a lot of people that told the Rambam, I mean, it's a whole argument, right? The Ikrim, I think-

26:30 Speaker 1 For sure, for sure, for sure

26:31 Speaker 2 ... I'm not so familiar with it.

26:32 Speaker 1 The, the, the, that saga is harided.

26:34 Speaker 2 Right. Let's cut it down to two or three.

26:35 Speaker 1 Right, right.

26:36 Speaker 2 And then, like, let-

26:36 Speaker 1 Baal HaKamtza's three.

26:37 Speaker 2 And, and then... What's that?

26:38 Speaker 1 Baal HaKamtza.

26:38 Speaker 2 Yeah. Right. Like, you know, there's the three things and, and then everything else is, is what people have to figure out on their own. We can't-

26:43 Speaker 1 Right

26:43 Speaker 2 ... like tell people, we can't... Like some, right? But the Rambam clearly disagreed, and he felt that you have to codify it to s- to a much larger extent.

26:52 Speaker 1 Right.

26:53 Speaker 2 Right? And, and there is risk with that. There is risk. That was the whole argument, right?

26:57 Speaker 1 For sure. But I, I think also you have to remember that, uh, there's layers upon layers in, in the Rambam's theory. Like, the Rambam is a very, very, uh, fascinating character.

27:05 Speaker 2 Right.

27:06 Speaker 1 And, uh, I think the more you study the Rambam, the more you see the complexity in his, uh, in his Ikrim.

27:10 Speaker 2 Oh, no, no. I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a lansman of the Rambam.

27:13 Speaker 1 Oh.

27:13 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to argue with the Rambam. I'm saying that the, the people that are, you know, people far greater than me-

27:19 Speaker 1 Mm

27:19 Speaker 2 ... like the Baal HaIkrim and so on, this was the, this was the ar- this was the dispute.

27:24 Speaker 1 Right.

27:24 Speaker 2 This was a dispute because there's something... There's, there's a risk here.

27:26 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

27:27 Speaker 2 Right? The Rambam clearly felt that it was worth that risk.

27:31 Speaker 1 Sure.

27:31 Speaker 2 Right? And, and, and that is not s- you know, I am not arguing with that. Um, I'm just saying I think that's what, what, what, what's lying at the, at the foundation there, right? And because faith, faith is something, by definition, something that is always elusive, and it ha- like the moment you tie it down too much, you know, that, that pa- that, that, that, that kind of, um, the irony almost that the more faith becomes concrete, the, the more it becomes real, the less, the less re- the less real it becomes, right? The more c- the more c- the more tangible you make it, the less real it is. Which, right?

28:08 Speaker 1 Mm.

28:08 Speaker 2 In a way. Um, I, I think-

28:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah

28:12 Speaker 2 ... I think if you wanna, if you wanna lend a Hasidis, Hasidic gloss to it-

28:15 Speaker 1 That's true

28:16 Speaker 2 ... like Makif and Pnimi.

28:17 Speaker 1 Sure.

28:18 Speaker 2 Right? You're, you're constant- you constantly need to have the Makif of it. If, if-

28:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

28:22 Speaker 2 ... once it be- once it's not Makif anymore-

28:24 Speaker 1 It's no longer faith

28:25 Speaker 2 ... it's, right, it's Sechel.

28:26 Speaker 1 Right.

28:26 Speaker 2 Right? And that's always the, there's always a tension. It has to be Makif K- in Pnimi, and, and so you're constantly... You, you, you... It has to be something that you can touch but cannot grasp.

28:38 Speaker 1 Mm.

28:38 Speaker 2 To use that language, but, uh, yeah.

28:40 Speaker 1 Negia v'im negia. Mati v'lo mati.

28:42 Speaker 2 Right. Right. There has to be, there has to be something elusive. There has to be something... I mean, if, if you wanna put it in sharper language, it has to be, in a way, at risk of being lost.

28:52 Speaker 1 Mm.

28:53 Speaker 2 Right? It's not, it's not a safe proposition, right?

28:59 Speaker 1 I'm not sure about that. Meaning, I think if there's, if, if you're touching something which is beyond you, right, if there's a certain element of Hafla, right? It doesn't mean that the, that it's, that it's, uh, being lost, right? I mean, if you're touching t- if you're-

29:09 Speaker 2 Safe?

29:10 Speaker 1 Is it safe? Um, no. Right?

29:13 Speaker 2 That's what I said.

29:14 Speaker 1 But the, uh, the, the thing is, I... O- okay. But meaning I, I, I think unsafe in d- in different sense, but I think y- the sense you're ta- saying it mean safe would be safe in a logical way, right? I think it's, I think that-

29:25 Speaker 2 No, I, I-

29:25 Speaker 1 No?

29:25 Speaker 2 I, I, no. I, I, no. Oh, no, no. I, I don't mean like is it, is it safe to consider this? More is it safe in the s- like is it something that we can rely on? Like, um, is it so- is it something that we can... No. How do I... What do I mean by safe? S- safety is, is, is, uh... When, when you say that, when you say that something is safe, when you say that, uh, that, uh, this thing is safe with me-

29:53 Speaker 1 Mm

29:54 Speaker 2 ... you know, it's, it's... There, there's a, there's a cer- there's like a, there's a certainty to it.

30:02 Speaker 1 Surety. Sure.

30:02 Speaker 2 A surety to it, right? And I don't thi- I don't think... I think by definition, faith doesn't have that.

30:08 Speaker 1 Hmm. I don't know. Meaning, I guess, I guess let me, let me maybe push back on that point.

30:13 Speaker 2 Sure. No, go for it.

30:13 Speaker 1 I, I, I find it fascinating we're, uh, going from, uh, you know, from Eretz Yisrael to Flatbush to, uh, the epistemology of religion. Be that as it may. Okay. So, so-

30:23 Speaker 2 I, I, I-

30:23 Speaker 1 But so, so epistemology and what's Shabbos.

30:25 Speaker 2 I, either that, either that's a good idea or it's, um, a very Makif type of conversation. But-

30:31 Speaker 1 What? No, no, no, no. It's good. It's good. So yes, it's maybe, maybe to jump in, right. So I, I think that a, um, good way to look at faith propositions is the, uh, the inimitable line of, uh, quoted in Shut Reish Hash, quoted in, uh, Sheshet Sateah-

30:45 Speaker 2 Right

30:45 Speaker 1 ... perik tes, then quoted by the Rebbe again and again, right, "Animi staal v'atza tinok," right?

30:49 Speaker 2 Right.

30:49 Speaker 1 And there's a lot of complex philosophy there, but I, I, I, um-

30:52 Speaker 2 Yeah

30:53 Speaker 1 ... I pray as a child, right? So I think when it comes to, let's say, in Emunah and the Ibster, right, meaning you can, you know, learn the Mitlaim HaShalem Emunah, you know, and, uh, all, and Meir Tovim, all, all the, uh, all, all the good books, right? But there's, there's a certain element where you want to relate to these Inyonim, um, as a child, right? Meaning-

31:11 Speaker 2 Okay. So you're talking about the pintel Yid.

31:14 Speaker 1 Sure.

31:14 Speaker 2 You're talking about, you're talking about the, the Emunah Pshuta of Yidden.

31:17 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

31:17 Speaker 2 Okay. I, I, I'm not talking that, about that 'Cause that is an innate, that is at least what, how Chassidus describes it. That is an innate connection, an innate faith that a Jew has.

31:28 Speaker 1 Sure. But I'm, I'm thinking, I think even on an experiential level.

31:31 Speaker 2 Right.

31:31 Speaker 1 Right? Meaning, I think at le- at least for me, like I, I, you know, try to, you know, go through, g- uh, in, m- there I think there's different layers or different layers of the psyche, but like, I try to g- to go, to go through life, you know, alm- almost, you know, in a certain child- childish sense, you know?

31:45 Speaker 2 Fair. Fair. Fair, but I'm not, but fair. Fair. And, and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not making fun. I'm not, I'm not mocking that part of it.

31:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

31:52 Speaker 2 That, that, that's a, that's a, in many ways, that is the whole fart of Chassidus, is that instead of thinking of the emunah peshuta as, as, as, as like the, the b'dieved of Yiddishkeit.

32:04 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

32:04 Speaker 2 In many ways, that's the l'chatchilah of Yiddishkeit. Like, halavai after everything else that you do, you come up to the level of the, of the Yid with the peshat emunah.

32:12 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

32:13 Speaker 2 Right? But ultimately, the whole enterprise of Chassidus, all the books of Chassidus, it un- is, is based on the understanding that you cannot operate on that alone. People have minds that wander.

32:25 Speaker 1 For sure.

32:25 Speaker 2 People have minds that engage with the world, engage with their, the stuff around them.

32:29 Speaker 1 Right.

32:30 Speaker 2 And ideas around them, and you have to grapple with your mind.

32:33 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

32:34 Speaker 2 And with, with your, with your s- with your psyche, you have to grapple with faith.

32:39 Speaker 1 For sure.

32:39 Speaker 2 Right? And, and that's what I'm talking about. That faith that, that you're constantly trying to kind of boil down to some words and some sentences and say, "Okay, this is what I believe-

32:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

32:52 Speaker 2 ... and this is, this is what my faith is about." In a way, the moment you try to, to capture it, what, like, what you're left with is a bag of air. 'Cause what you're trying to capture is not capturable, right?

33:04 Speaker 1 Sure. Sure. Although I, I-

33:05 Speaker 2 And that's what I mean by not safe.

33:07 Speaker 1 Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, so I think that Ch- that Chassidus Chabad is functioning in a very different way, um, than Hakira, than Jewish philosophy.

33:16 Speaker 2 Okay.

33:16 Speaker 1 Right? I mean, I think if you, if, if s- if you go, let's say, to the "Mishnah Berurah" for example, right, you're gonna see, um, sh- uh, you know, strong philosophical arguments-

33:24 Speaker 2 Right

33:24 Speaker 1 ... um, you know, relative to a certain framework-

33:27 Speaker 2 Right

33:27 Speaker 1 ... uh, for God's existence, right? You're going to see rational explanations, uh, for why you should engage in Torah and mitzvahs.

33:33 Speaker 2 Right.

33:33 Speaker 1 You know, uh, responses to theodicy, right? The problem of evil. I think if you go to Chassidus Chabad, Chassidus Chabad is much less interested in, um, engaging in philosophical proofs, and almost, uh, takes a lot of, uh, things for granted.

33:48 Speaker 2 Right.

33:48 Speaker 1 Right? Meaning, for example, you know, let's say divine revelation, right? Chassidus Chabad is not busy trying to p-prove divine revelation to you. I mean, that's gonna be-

33:55 Speaker 2 Right

33:55 Speaker 1 ... like a sideshow and ingress when the rebbe is talking to somebody who's living in a different head space, the rebbe is gonna, gonna, going to respond to them where they're at. But there's not a single Laitmer the rebbe where the rebbe is, you know, going to say, "Now, l- let me, let me prove to you, you know, Ma'amar Ha'tanya, let me prove to you that God exists."

34:08 Speaker 2 Right.

34:09 Speaker 1 I mean, it, it's, it's taken as a, as a, um, as a, um, hanhaga peshuta, right?

34:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:14 Speaker 1 And I think that all the r- a l- a lot of the intellectual exercise in, in Torah Chabad is more taking, um, concepts, uh, you know, frameworks, uh, we could say even tropes, right? Meaning, let's understand what is our makif, what is our pnim in a deep way or like, uh, or, or narratives even, and, uh, understanding them in a very, uh, deep way with our minds. But it's, it's not that we're trying to prove, uh, you know, this or that, uh, using our minds.

34:43 Speaker 2 Yes, but there are still ideas. Fair, fair point. You know, the famous distinction, the Kuzari of the God of Aristotle and God of Abraham.

34:50 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

34:50 Speaker 2 Right? And one, you know, and, uh, the God of enlightenment and the God of revelation-

34:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

34:54 Speaker 2 ... I suppose you could say is a difference, right? And, like, it's, Chassidus is all about the ma'amar. It's the, the, the ecstatic, right? Not about the... Like you said, it's not, there's very little, very little talk about how we prove that God is here.

35:09 Speaker 1 Sure.

35:09 Speaker 2 Torah, Klal Yisrael, you know, we, we, we take for a granted that God created the world, and you're very quickly talking about at, um, you know, before the Beri'am and a- after the Beri'am-

35:20 Speaker 1 Yeah

35:20 Speaker 2 ... and like, you're right away talking about Aflos HaInsof. Like, like that is what they explain. This is not, not the whole way we get to the belief in God. I, that's, that's fair, but I, I, I, precisely for that reason, the things that Chassidus are talking about are always fundamentally elusive, right? They, they, they are based on something that we, we, we accept as a truth about the Yid, that the Yid has an emunah, and that we believe about ourselves that we have the emunah.

35:47 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

35:48 Speaker 2 But these are not tangible things. That doesn't mean they're not real. That does not mean they're not true. Uh, what I mean by not safe is that the, the there, there, there is, the, it's a risky proposition in that sense. It, it, you're not, you're not, you're not basing it in something that, that, that two p- you know, two plus two equals four.

36:09 Speaker 1 Sure.

36:10 Speaker 2 Even though it, it's just as real as two plus two equals four, but it's not, it's not as tangible. It's... When you lose it or when you, when, when, when you're in that moment of darkness, you cannot reassure yourself with, "I don't know, but two plus two is four. It is four," right? You're, you're-

36:24 Speaker 1 Right. Although I, I would say, I think the only philosophical argument, uh, that Ch- that Chassidus, Chassidus makes is the argument for HaKadosh Baruch Hu, right? That, that, that's the one point that the Alter Rebbe wants to, uh, drive home on a, on a philosophical level.

36:36 Speaker 2 You're talking about bitul elemis.

36:38 Speaker 1 Um, yeah.

36:39 Speaker 2 Bitul elemis, right, but you have to first believe that there's a God.

36:44 Speaker 1 I hear, I hear, but I mean-

36:45 Speaker 2 I mean, you, you, that's not, I wouldn't, like the philosopher, if you, like, if, like, for the philosopher to g- even begin entering that conversation you're talking about, like their whole-

36:54 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Meaning if this, meaning I'm, I'm referring to, uh, Shaul, I believe Shaul Yichuv, Shaul Yichuv L'emunah Perik Beis, right?

37:00 Speaker 2 The argument about, yeah, again, but that you have to believe in God.

37:03 Speaker 1 No. I mean, no, no, no. So mean, I think, I think, I think, I think it's like this, right? Meaning we, we have a world here, right?

37:07 Speaker 2 Right.

37:07 Speaker 1 Does the world necessarily exist, right? So most people... And necessarily exist means does it have to exist? Does it have to be here?

37:13 Speaker 2 Right.

37:14 Speaker 1 Right? Does it have to be the case that you and I are sitting here having this conversation right now?

37:16 Speaker 2 Right.

37:17 Speaker 1 Right. So most philosophers in the, would, would say, no, the world does not necessarily exist Right. Uh, so the question is what grounds, um, that, uh, that existence?

37:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

37:26 Speaker 1 Right? And then the, the, the response would be that there needs to be some, some metaphysical principle which is, which is grounding that existence. The Alter Rebbe's trying to tell you that the, the world, uh, does not, um, necess-- or trying to bring you philosophically to the fact that the world doesn't necessarily exist, right? And therefore, there must be something grounding that existence. And what, what is that thing? The thing is the one or the Ein Sof.

37:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

37:50 Speaker 1 I mean, a, mean, meaning to, to the extent that, um, philosophers of the, of the rat-- of the so-called rationalist school, um, you know, were busy proving that the, that the, that the, the world, uh, or that, that the one exists and that-

38:04 Speaker 2 So the Alter Rebbe-

38:05 Speaker 1 ... that's a said Musar

38:05 Speaker 2 ... the Alter Rebbe is arguing, in other words, with people who believe in God but don't believe in miracles.

38:13 Speaker 1 Um, no. I think-

38:14 Speaker 2 Like, like interventionism.

38:15 Speaker 1 No, no. I, I, I think he, I think he, I think in, in, right, right there, he's trying to just tell you that there is the one.

38:21 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

38:21 Speaker 1 Right? I mean, he's also talking about the, the idea of, of his, of his havah bechol reah, that there's radi-

38:26 Speaker 2 Right

38:26 Speaker 1 ... that there's radical contingency. The world is radically contingent and needs God to exist.

38:30 Speaker 2 Right.

38:30 Speaker 1 But the point is, I would say that, that there, there, there plenty of philosophers, um, you know, both, both of old and, uh, and contemporary philosophers who are very busy, uh, proving mathematically that the only thing that exists is the one. It's a very, very counterintuitive, uh, proposition. But, uh, you know, meaning actually a, a mentor of mine who I was zecher to study by for, uh, several years, um, uh, Dr. Rabbi, uh, Aaron Siegel of Hebrew U, uh, like, has a whole, uh, three hundred and sixty page, uh, mathematical proof to explain, you know, that the one, the one is the one.

39:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

39:00 Speaker 1 Right? But I, I think that's the, that's the one, the one philosophical argument that, that this is making. But then from there, you know, meaning we take, we take most things as a, um, as a-

39:08 Speaker 2 But, but, but lay out the distinction to me. What do you mean by-- What... Why is that more philosophical? You're saying 'cause he's using logic?

39:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. He's trying to give you a logical argument. In, in most cases, there, there is no logical argument, you know, to explain to you, um, that, you know, let's say in this portion, right, that we speak, we speak about the idea of, uh, you know, the eight kings, right? So in Kabbalah, there is all the... um, what do the eight kings symbolize? They symbolize the, the, uh, the, um, the sefirot of Taiyu.

39:32 Speaker 2 Right.

39:33 Speaker 1 Right? Uh, whatever, the sefirot of Taiyu, the last king is, is Tekun, what-whatever the case may be. Right, but there's no philosophical proof, right, which, uh, you know, brings you, brings you to that, uh, you know, to, uh, to the fact that, that that archetypal framework in, in fact, is manifesting or did manifest in our reality, right? There's no, um, philosophical proof laid out to prove to you that Moshiach will one day come, right, and, uh, and, uh, turn, uh, this world into a garden, right? Um-

39:57 Speaker 2 Yes. So, so, so the... I mean, remind me, the Alter Rebbe in Perek B, Sha'ar HaEmunah, is basically saying that he brings a rayeh from Kirchas Hamsofra.

40:08 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

40:10 Speaker 2 That if you-- that if the, if the Ein Sof would cease to hold the water up as a wall, it would go back to being a river.

40:16 Speaker 1 Right.

40:17 Speaker 2 Is a rayeh that, that the world-

40:20 Speaker 1 Is radically contingent, meaning it does not need to exist on its own, and the Ein Sof needs to have a bechol reah v'reah.

40:25 Speaker 2 There are no presupposition-- there are no Hasidic presuppositions there? It's pure philosophy?

40:31 Speaker 1 Um, I think that, yeah, from, from a, from, on, on a philosophical level, right, meaning there is a philo-

40:36 Speaker 2 What's, what's a philosopher argue?

40:38 Speaker 1 There's, there's a, there's a, there's a fundamental question, right? Is the world necessary or is the world contingent, right? So one, one of the, like, classical philosophical arguments for the wor-- for, for God's existence is the claim that there needs to be some necessary being. This is, uh, you know-

40:50 Speaker 2 Right

40:50 Speaker 1 ... in, in philosophy, it's called the ontological argument.

40:53 Speaker 2 Right.

40:53 Speaker 1 Right? And you'll have, you'll have arguments here and arguments there, meaning a whole, a whole, uh, you know, machlik-- meaning this is really the, the, what I would say the machlik is between what we call the empiricists and the rationalists.

41:01 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

41:02 Speaker 1 Right? The empiricists are people who look at, you know, the world as it is. They, they look at, uh, experience and start from there. Rationalists, um, start from reflection first principles. Right? So most, I would say many rationalists basically end up at some mystical conclusion, right, claiming that there's, that there's the one or the necessary being or, uh, you know, mean, the one necessary being. Question, the question is to what extent is that necessary being a personal God, um-

41:28 Speaker 2 But kam uchluv v'amitiyus.

41:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

41:30 Speaker 2 Okay.

41:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. So meaning, um, I think that, that, that, uh, as, as from a, a rationalist philosopher's perspective, this, you know, the Alter Rebbe's argument would be an argument that they would buy. In a contemporary, in a contemporary context, they would just, uh-

41:42 Speaker 2 They would, they, they-

41:42 Speaker 1 ... dress it up with three hundred, three hundred pages-

41:44 Speaker 2 No, but they would-

41:44 Speaker 1 ... of mathematical arguments

41:45 Speaker 2 ... they would buy that, that God is, is involved in the world on a, on a constant basis?

41:51 Speaker 1 Not necessarily in a, um, conscious way caring about you as your father cares about you, but the fact that God needs to be involved in the world's existence at every moment, they might.

42:01 Speaker 2 They might. But that's what I'm asking. Does, does a philosopher-- 'cause I, I mean, I, I, I haven't studied it recent-- like, I haven't studied it closely recently, but it seems like the Alter Rebbe also over there, it starts at the Maamar of the Baal Shem Tov.

42:14 Speaker 1 Right.

42:15 Speaker 2 Like, uh, it doesn't seem like straight philosophy.

42:19 Speaker 1 Um-

42:20 Speaker 2 Uh, he refer-- who does he refer-- he refers to his opponents as what? Kofrim or Chetkim? I don't remember.

42:25 Speaker 1 Um, it's, so in Perek B, it's, I'm pretty, pretty sure it's the Kofrim.

42:28 Speaker 2 Kofrim, right?

42:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:30 Speaker 2 So he, he's not arguing with philosophers.

42:31 Speaker 1 No, he is.

42:33 Speaker 2 Kofrim as philosophers?

42:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I th- I mean-

42:35 Speaker 2 Like philosophers that be- that believe in philo- philosophers. So you're saying he's taking a philosopher's position.

42:40 Speaker 1 I think so. I mean, I th- I th- I th-

42:41 Speaker 2 That you can reach, you can reach the Emunah V'Hashem through philosophy.

42:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Meaning the Rav Yosef Vart in Shaarei HaEmunah, right, it's called Shaarei HaYichud V'HaEmunah.

42:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

42:49 Speaker 1 Right? The, the gate of union and the gate of faith, right? And I believe Rav Yosef's contention is that the Perkim Alef through Zayin are, um, are Shaarei Yichud, right? That they, that they are a philosophical proof. Or as Baal HaTanya told, uh, Goyim from Shaarei HaEmunah.

43:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

43:02 Speaker 1 Right? Um, and then, uh, and then Chesed Beis, which is talking about the, the union of, uh, of God's attributes with God, meaning, which is more dealing with, like, how can there be a personal God, um, if God is one, right? That, that's Emunah, that's faith, 'cause that, that's, that's a, a mystery of faith.

43:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. I would say for some reason, I just... I don't... It, it almost feels like to argue that that is philosophy It's such a short text.

43:29 Speaker 1 Very good. Very good. So the, so the thing is, I think that the, the Bechalal, a lot of the enterprise of philosophy, um, is-

43:35 Speaker 2 Is to waste, waste ink on paper?

43:37 Speaker 1 Um, no. Um, is to take, uh, particularly, like say, contemporary analytic philosophy-

43:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

43:42 Speaker 1 ...um, is taking fragmentary arguments from earlier philosophers and developing them into, like, super long, complex mathematical proofs, right? So for example, this, uh, this, uh, um, Aaron Siegel fellow, right? Dr. Rabbi Aaron Siegel, shlita, right? Has, you know-

43:56 Speaker 2 But, but, but Aristotle didn't agree with Pereg Beis Tanya, right?

44:00 Speaker 1 Aristotle probably not, but I, I, I think that you, you could, uh, easily see Plato, uh, working into Pereg Beis, the Pereg Beis chapter one.

44:06 Speaker 2 Really?

44:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. Pub-- mean, meaning the, the-

44:08 Speaker 2 So then how does Alter Rebbe argue with Aristotle?

44:11 Speaker 1 How does Alter Rebbe argue with Aristotle? Um, I'd have to like, uh, be, be looking down in inside Pereg Beis-

44:16 Speaker 2 I'm saying it doesn't feel like, it doesn't feel like-

44:16 Speaker 1 ...and, and Aristotle's Metaphysics. Uh, I'm not gonna be able to give you the, uh, the, um, the view offhand. Meaning for, for, for those who are interested, you can, uh, look up, uh, Aaron Siegel on Academy Med.edu.

44:26 Speaker 2 But you think Ar-- you think, you think the Alter Rebbe could convince Aristotle on his terms?

44:30 Speaker 1 Um, I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. 'Cause the, the vort, the vort, the vort is with philosophy, right? Um, you know, philosophers have been arguing for, uh, for thousands of years, and, uh, they haven't come to any, uh, any, uh, conclusive conclusions.

44:43 Speaker 2 I'm just... What I'm trying to ask is not to test your philosophical, you know, knowledge. It's more your, your, your contention is that the Alter Rebbe in Pereg Beis over there is talking in philosophical language.

44:55 Speaker 1 I think so.

44:56 Speaker 2 So you think Aristotle would understand what he's saying, and either agree with him or not agree with him?

45:00 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think that you could-

45:01 Speaker 2 But-

45:01 Speaker 1 I think that you could take a lot of the propositions in Shomer Emunim and, um, and philo-- and, and articulate them in language-

45:08 Speaker 2 Without any, without anything else. Without any, like, so-called Emunah or, or like, like-

45:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

45:14 Speaker 2 ...Jewish-

45:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think so

45:15 Speaker 2 ...straight philosophy.

45:16 Speaker 1 I think so.

45:18 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I haven't worn my analytic philosopher's hat in a little while.

45:24 Speaker 2 No, no, I don't mean to put you on, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but, uh, no, it's interesting.

45:27 Speaker 1 No, meaning, meaning, you know, to, to, uh, you know, perhaps, uh, take a, uh, you know, another example, and this might be, uh, might be controversial, right? So meaning we know that, uh, Shomer Emunim, Pereg Vaov, the Alter Rebbe quotes, uh, the, the line, um, Ele King BeMatir Atava, right? So that line comes up in part of this, the Ramak, right?

45:43 Speaker 2 Right.

45:43 Speaker 1 Which is being written in the late fifteen hundreds.

45:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

45:47 Speaker 1 Right? It's called Iggeres HaChochmah, also late fifteen hundreds.

45:49 Speaker 2 Right.

45:49 Speaker 1 But, uh, Spinoza, right? Uh, who did, who did study Kabbalah, just FYI.

45:54 Speaker 2 Right.

45:54 Speaker 1 Right? Um, uses that line, right, of Ele King BeMatir Atava, in the famous Latin line, Deus sive Natura, right? And then in, in his whole, uh, the, the whole, uh, you know, I don't know, thesis of the, of, of the ethics, right? Uh, which is his, uh, at least the first Shaar, is his book on philosophy. Right? So the whole thesis of the ethics is he's trying to prove from a philosophical perspective, from a purely rational perspective, that everyone should, uh, believe that, that there's only one thing that exists, and that one thing is God.

46:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

46:23 Speaker 1 Right? So meaning, I mean, the, like the, this, this philosophical enterprise has been going on, meaning certainly since times, since, certainly since, since the times of Plato, probably before, right? Proving that there's, there's only one thing that fundamentally exists, and that thing is God. Now, what, what is the nature of the one, right? How do we relate to it? Is, uh, is, is, is a Breitha Neisa.

46:39 Speaker 2 No, no, no.

46:40 Speaker 1 You know?

46:40 Speaker 2 Uh, what, what I, what I'm try-- what I'm trying to get to is not trying to come to summary of, of, of, of religious philosophy. What I, what I, what I'm interested herein is what you're saying is that there's a part of Chassidis that can be seen as pure philosophy.

46:56 Speaker 1 I mean, I think to, to be, to be very honest with you, I think that, uh, Shomer Emunim is, is straight metaphysics, right?

47:02 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

47:02 Speaker 1 And then Igeres HaRachamim and, uh, and, uh, Likutei Amarim, um, you could read as ethics, right? Now, it happens to be that the ethics of, um, the ethics, the psychology, um, of, uh, of Likutei Amarim and, and the Igeres HaRachamim are definitely working with a lot of, um, let's say, religious, um, suppositions. But they-- that's-- I think they could be, they could be recast in, um, you know, in ethical and, um, and, uh, and s- and psychological terms. Bechalal, also I would, I would add that I think ethics and psychology as, as domains separate from religion is, is re- is a relatively new concept.

47:38 Speaker 2 Right.

47:39 Speaker 1 Meaning-

47:39 Speaker 2 Right

47:39 Speaker 1 ...you know, if you look at ph-- let's say-

47:41 Speaker 2 Well, science separate from philosophy as well, right?

47:43 Speaker 1 Philosophy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Meaning, uh, you know, meaning, uh, Bechalal, meaning, meaning Spinoza's whole project, right? The, the, the, the whole beginning of, of the Sefer Hamiddas, of the, of, of, Rabbeinu Bachya, right? Is it starts with, uh, you know, the, the f- the first Shaar is explaining to you that, uh, you know, that, that, that, that, uh, you know, that Ein Mol Vadey, right? That there is-

48:00 Speaker 2 So how does a good, how does a good Lubavitcher Rebbe learn Spinoza? Tell me, tell me that story.

48:05 Speaker 1 Oh, that story. Fine. Well, let me just finish the sentence, and I'll tell you. Right? Um, yeah. So Akapanim, right? So meaning the first Shaar is explaining to you that, that, you know, that, that, that, that, that alts is God and God is, God is alts, right? As the Chabad would say.

48:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:19 Speaker 1 Right? And then based on that, right, that why it is that you shouldn't be, uh, you know, overcome, um, by your, by your nefesh, bevama and your emotions, and, uh, you should live a balanced life.

48:27 Speaker 2 You're talking, you're talking about Spinoza?

48:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. The Sefer Hamiddas, the book of ethics.

48:30 Speaker 2 What was the problem with Spinoza?

48:31 Speaker 1 What was the problem with Spinoza? See, so in, in addition to the ethics, which is a very nice book, right? Um, which actually there's a few, a few in the Torah, right? He also wrote a book, um, called, um, the, the Tractatus, uh, uh, Log-- uh, what is it again? Mix it up with, with... Uh, yeah, the, uh, Tract-Tractatus Politicus Theologicus, or something along those lines, right? On, on theology and politics. Oh, so Spinoza was, uh, you know-

48:54 Speaker 2 Is it from Eid?

48:55 Speaker 1 Uh, no. You see, he started out as a Firmit. He grew up in Firmit. He went to Alfamatiga.

48:58 Speaker 2 That, that I know, yes.

48:58 Speaker 1 You know? Um, around the age of, uh, twenty, he started, uh, questioning Nevuah, Lishah, and Edah, you know.

49:05 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:05 Speaker 1 And, uh, thi-things of that nature. And, uh, he started, uh, talking, farbenying about this with the youth.

49:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:11 Speaker 1 And he was, uh, kicked out of the community, um, for those, uh, for those, um, um, opinions. And, uh, he moved in with the, uh, the Dutch freethinkers. But I would say the real, the real issue is not with, uh, the ethics. I mean, the problems with, with the ethics is he's pretty much Shay-Lo and Bechir Chofshis. He takes a hard deterministic view.

49:29 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

49:30 Speaker 1 Right? Which in Judaism we're not into. We're, we're very into the idea of Bechir-

49:32 Speaker 2 Right

49:32 Speaker 1 ...particularly in Chassidus Chabad, we're very into this, this idea of radical free choice.

49:35 Speaker 2 Right.

49:36 Speaker 1 Right? I mean, aka the Kach that, uh, you know, you could say that, um, there's actually a conversation with, uh, with, with Shmuly Yavetz, um, that, uh, that, that, that, that, that even though Chassidus usually says that Tayinu is Gevoyim Mikol Kol Chassidus Nefesh, really, if you read between the lines of Alter Rebbe, Bechir is harder than Tayinu.

49:50 Speaker 2 Right.

49:50 Speaker 1 And that's certainly true in the Rebbe's in Ramålsa.

49:52 Speaker 2 Right.

49:53 Speaker 1 You know, so it's, you know-

49:54 Speaker 2 Right

49:54 Speaker 1 ...and, uh, you know, in your next conversation with Shmuly, you can talk about, uh, Bechir, Bechir and Tayinu.

49:58 Speaker 2 I, I, I don't know that they're on the same continuum.

50:01 Speaker 1 They are.

50:01 Speaker 2 Are they?

50:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:02 Speaker 2 Yeah?

50:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure.

50:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

50:04 Speaker 1 I would, I would argue. But, uh, but, but, but be that as it may, right? So meaning in addition to-

50:08 Speaker 2 No, because, uh, I would... It seems like, it seems like... I haven't, I haven't thought about this before in these, in these words, so I, I... There's no, there's no, th-there's no heft to what I'm saying here, but just as you're saying it, tayinug is seen, even though it's a makiv dike thing, it's, it's still a koach of the nefesh, right?

50:30 Speaker 1 Sure

50:31 Speaker 2 I'm, I don't, I don't know that the bechirah that you're talking about, bechirah, like bechirah atzmis, like-

50:35 Speaker 1 Sure

50:35 Speaker 2 ... I don't think it's a, it's a koach of the nefesh. I think it, it is, it is, it is an, it, it is a nefesh itself.

50:42 Speaker 1 Mm. Mm. Mm.

50:42 Speaker 2 That's the whole point.

50:43 Speaker 1 So it's-

50:43 Speaker 2 Like the fact-

50:44 Speaker 1 Uh-huh. Uh, very good. So, so, so, so-

50:45 Speaker 2 The fact that you're, the fact that it's a Yiddishe nefesh-

50:47 Speaker 1 Uh-huh

50:47 Speaker 2 ... and the Aibishter has ultimate bechirah, He invested in the nefesh, like the quality of the nefesh itself is that it's a f- like a truly free spirit.

50:58 Speaker 1 Mm. Mm. So means... Ah, so very good. So, so, so you're, you're tying that, that, the, the, the bechir-bechirah is in fact, um, higher than, higher than tayinuk. It's more atzmi.

51:07 Speaker 2 It's, it's higher but it's on the continuum. It's like a, it's like it's, it's the nefesh itself.

51:11 Speaker 1 Mm. Mm.

51:12 Speaker 2 I mean, it's higher and because it, because it's, it, because it's, it's... Everything else it seems is, is on a, is on a continuum, right?

51:21 Speaker 1 Right

51:21 Speaker 2 There, there's, there's a lower koach, there's a higher koach, there's midah, sechel, ratzon, uh, tayinuk-

51:27 Speaker 1 Right

51:27 Speaker 2 ... machlikis, which one's higher, and so on.

51:28 Speaker 1 No, but michlis and machlis, tayinuk's higher. I mean, even some-

51:30 Speaker 2 Right, right, the whole, right, right. It's the whole, whole pilpul, right?

51:33 Speaker 1 Right

51:33 Speaker 2 Which part is higher than which, but bechirah I don't think is a, is like a, I don't think it's another koach. I think it-

51:38 Speaker 1 Oh. Oh, oh, so this is a very deep vorts, right? So this is against the whole idea of tzadus and shebchesed, right? What are the tzadus and she... Right, so radla is the highest, as we know, co-coming up on, uh-

51:45 Speaker 2 Right

51:45 Speaker 1 ... this case of tzakl panim. Um, you, there's... Whatever, you, one could make the argument, the argument has been made that, that radla, which is, you know, tzadus and shebchesed, radla is right-

51:53 Speaker 2 Is bechirah?

51:53 Speaker 1 ... right above tayinuk, yeah, would be associated with bechirah.

51:56 Speaker 2 Okay. So either-

51:56 Speaker 1 Which would be associated with emunah

51:57 Speaker 2 That's a more Kabbalistic part of chassidus. And, and the Rabas at least it, it strikes me that like bechirah is, is a nefesh itself.

52:04 Speaker 1 No, very good, very good, very good.

52:05 Speaker 2 That's what radla is?

52:05 Speaker 1 But they, they... Oh, no, so radla, right, r-radla is rosh halayisi ha'at, right?

52:09 Speaker 2 Right

52:09 Speaker 1 Meaning, so rosh halayisi had the unknowable head. The unknowable head of what?

52:12 Speaker 2 Right

52:12 Speaker 1 Right? It's the unknowable head of an, of, of, of nefesh, right? It's all there. It says what's radla, right?

52:15 Speaker 2 Right

52:15 Speaker 1 Ro-rosh halayisi ha'at, that's the unknowable head of, of tayinuk.

52:19 Speaker 2 Right

52:19 Speaker 1 Right? Of, of atikim, right? Tzadus and she... Right.

52:21 Speaker 2 Right

52:21 Speaker 1 Radla, rosh halayisi ha'at, the rosh halatik and rosh ha'ach.

52:24 Speaker 2 Right

52:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So, this is going a lot deeper than I expected. It's like a panim-

52:31 Speaker 2 Have fun, man

52:32 Speaker 1 What?

52:33 Speaker 2 Have fun.

52:33 Speaker 1 Okay. No, it's like a panim, right? No, it's the whole vorts, right, of, um, of-

52:37 Speaker 2 I'm still gonna ask you how you learn Spinoza

52:38 Speaker 1 Sure, sure. I'll get there. I'll get there. I'll get there. No, but the whole, the whole vorts, right, of, of, um, of radla is so where is the tayinuk coming from, right? It's coming from, it's coming from bechirah, right? Bechirah would be, would be that, would be that atzmis dike place which is, which is deeper even than tayinuk.

52:51 Speaker 2 But at some point you rub up, you rub, you... Sometimes you rub up against the, the nefesh itself, and you're... And to me, bechirah strikes me as what expresses a nefesh itself.

53:03 Speaker 1 Mm

53:04 Speaker 2 Not a state of the nefesh, but what is the nefesh? Like, where do you see the nefesh itself? It's in bechirah-

53:10 Speaker 1 Mm

53:10 Speaker 2 ... because that is, that is, that is God.

53:13 Speaker 1 Mm.

53:14 Speaker 2 That is God. Tayinuk is not God, right? Tayinuk is a, a, a state of the nefesh where you know that the nefesh is more fully expressing itself.

53:25 Speaker 1 Or most fully expressing itself.

53:26 Speaker 2 Right. Right. That's why it's in a state of fl- you know, probably to use modern terminology, a state of flow or a state of-

53:33 Speaker 1 Tayinuk's in a state of flow

53:34 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying similar in the sense of flow-

53:36 Speaker 1 Say, when, when, when, when one is in a state of flow, one is in a state of tayinuk, right?

53:39 Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

53:40 Speaker 1 Mm.

53:40 Speaker 2 There's like, there's like... 'Cause, 'cause everything's in sync.

53:42 Speaker 1 Mm.

53:42 Speaker 2 When every-everything is working, right? There's no, nothing is being jammed up. That's the problem with ratzon. The problem with ratzon is ratzon is very often fighting up against something.

53:52 Speaker 1 Exactly

53:52 Speaker 2 Which is why it's not as fully expressive as tayinuk, right? But bechirah is not, is n- I, I've never, I, I, I've, haven't understood it as, as an, as an, as another expression of the nefesh.

54:02 Speaker 1 No, very good. Very good. But meaning the vorts be it's radla, it's rosh halayisi ha'at, the unknowable beginning, right?

54:07 Speaker 2 Right

54:07 Speaker 1 It's unknowable beginning from where everything else is flowing, right?

54:10 Speaker 2 Right

54:10 Speaker 1 Which would be, which would, which would be as a nefesh.

54:11 Speaker 2 Okay. So at some p- at some point you're no longer on a continuum of koachs.

54:14 Speaker 1 Okay.

54:14 Speaker 2 'Cause at some point, at some point you are, this is what it is.

54:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

54:19 Speaker 2 Right? I would think.

54:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Meaning I, uh, I, I would have to, uh, you know, l- um, like-

54:25 Speaker 2 Like there's categories.

54:26 Speaker 1 Right

54:26 Speaker 2 There's, there's like, these are all koachs, and then yet within the, within the koachs there are subcategories, and then there's another thing which is, no, no, this, this is it.

54:35 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Right. So i-identifying bechirah with that nefesh, yeah, I mean, that definitely sounds plausible.

54:41 Speaker 2 Whatever. That's my, my, my, my attempt at being a, being a maskil for tonight.

54:46 Speaker 1 It's, it's mishmak.

54:47 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonialam, Torah Mesora, and Athalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. Let's go back to h-how a nice little Lubavitcher boy is learning Spinoza.

55:44 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. Fine

55:45 Speaker 2 How that happened

55:45 Speaker 1 How did that happen? Okay. So there, there were, there were, there are a few more steps, right, between, between a Chaim Berlin and Spinoza.

55:51 Speaker 2 As a Lubavitcher, I'm convinced that every Chaim Berliner ends up learning Spinoza.

55:55 Speaker 1 Um, you know, you'd actually... It's, it's actually quite striking, um, that, uh- First of all, it's 'cause... No, first of all, it's, it's actually not the case.

56:01 Speaker 2 I'm kidding

56:01 Speaker 1 Um, it is very striking. I spent a lot of time hanging out with the Yeshivas, um, and there are a lot of people who I think walk around with, um, with Emunot ve-Deot there, and like they're, they're, they're like, you know, they're doing great.

56:11 Speaker 2 Right

56:12 Speaker 1 Um, and like I think with like cer- a certain like Emunot ve-Deot which is, um, almost like, um, more- Um, naive and, uh, and, uh, childish that than, than what's usually on offer, um, in, uh, in Lubavitch. Um, but that said, like one thing that I found very striking about hanging out in, uh, you know, in Lakewood and Yeshivas Chevrin is in the Haredi Chevrin-

56:32 Speaker 2 You learned in Lakewood? Are you-

56:33 Speaker 1 I hung out in Lakewood. I didn't learn in Lakewood. Um, but I, I, I, have a tendency to hang out in places.

56:38 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

56:39 Speaker 1 Um, but B'ezrat Hashem, yeah, I, I did find there were a lot of guys who are, um, like struggling with the moon in like very, very serious ways, and I think that, um-

56:48 Speaker 2 More than Lubavitch?

56:50 Speaker 1 Um, I think that, uh, Chabad is m- is like offers so much more color. Chabad offers like so much more depth and color and, um, uh, philosoph- and philosophically interesting sources to look at. Whereas in the Litvish world, very often you have very, very limited, um, philosophical palette, um, to choose from, and you're, you're basically studying Gemara all day.

57:14 Speaker 2 What about non-Orthodox?

57:16 Speaker 1 Oh, non-Orthodoxy. That's, uh-

57:17 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying I'm not trying to like pick on, uh, groups. I'm just saying is it a Litvish thing or is it a Lubavitch thing?

57:24 Speaker 1 Um, I think that at least in, in my, uh, in, in my experience, I think that, that, uh, Chabad just offers something very, very, uh, philosophically, um, rich.

57:36 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

57:36 Speaker 1 You know? I mean, I think, I think in the... Like I've seen in the, in the Dati Leumi world, the religious Zionist world, um, there's, uh, you know, perhaps, um-

57:44 Speaker 2 So Rav Kook world you're talking.

57:46 Speaker 1 Um, no. So Dati Leumi world is, is very, very diverse. Like say we have the Hasidic world, right? You have that, that Dati Leu- that, that Dati Leumi world. Yeshivat-

57:53 Speaker 2 There's no Dati Leumi world that's not Rav Kook. That's like anti-Rav-

57:55 Speaker 1 Very, very-

57:56 Speaker 2 That's anti-Rav Kook, like-

57:57 Speaker 1 For sure. Yeah, yeah. For sure.

57:58 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

57:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, the Dati Leumi, the, the Dati Leumi world is, is like, it's, it's like this kashe that you have Satmar Lubavitch in Litvish world.

58:03 Speaker 2 You have that kind of-

58:04 Speaker 1 You have, you have that, you have, you have that, you have that range. I mean, Dati Leumi world, I would say ranges, you know, like the, the leftiest left would be like Yeshivat Har Etzion, which is, uh, you know, the feeder school or, or proto-halakhic galitarianism.

58:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

58:16 Speaker 1 You know, all the way to, um, Har Hamor, which is like more frum than anybody you've ever met. And like, you know, their kids like know Tanakh by heart at age of fourteen.

58:26 Speaker 2 Right.

58:26 Speaker 1 And you know, Mishnah by heart at age of sixteen.

58:29 Speaker 2 Right.

58:29 Speaker 1 And they're medakdek on every last beer halakha and like every last, uh, you know, Taz in Shulchan Aruch.

58:36 Speaker 2 Right.

58:36 Speaker 1 Right? And, uh, you know, so the, the Har Hamor people are actually super, super hardcore Tsiyyud, or Tsiyyud people. Not, you know, not Rav Kook the father, but Rav Kook the son.

58:45 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

58:45 Speaker 1 Meaning even Rav Kook the father might be too radical for them in some senses. But then-

58:48 Speaker 2 Too ra-too radical...

58:49 Speaker 1 Too radical religiously, you know, in terms of the things he was thinking about, the poetry he was writing.

58:53 Speaker 2 He's too open, you're saying.

58:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:55 Speaker 2 He's too open.

58:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. So Tsiyyud-

58:56 Speaker 2 He wasn't frum enough.

58:57 Speaker 1 What?

58:57 Speaker 2 He wasn't frum enough.

58:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Tsiyyud is more conservative.

59:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

59:00 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. But then even the Dati Leumi world, you have those who, you know, reject Rav Kook as saying of a, of a false prophet, and-

59:06 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

59:06 Speaker 1 ... uh, you know, they're moving in a much more, um, Hasidic direction. Um, you know, but like literally, you have guys there who like know the ganz mitn a Yechid, you know, all thirty-four perkim are being explained in the whole mitn a Yechid-

59:16 Speaker 2 Really?

59:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. For sure.

59:18 Speaker 2 In the Dati Leumi world.

59:19 Speaker 1 Exactly. Yeah.

59:20 Speaker 2 They're learning Chassidus-

59:21 Speaker 1 Yeah

59:21 Speaker 2 ... like hardcore stuff.

59:22 Speaker 1 Majorly. Like, you know, Seder Da, Sameche, Sankefaf.

59:25 Speaker 2 Seriously?

59:26 Speaker 1 Yeah. Straight up.

59:27 Speaker 2 Who are they learning it from?

59:28 Speaker 1 Um, so there's different characters, meaning, um, I think Moshe Shilat, uh, was very-

59:32 Speaker 2 Yes

59:33 Speaker 1 ... uh, was very helpful in that regard. Um, you know, meaning he started, I think, around, I don't know, twelve years ago, um, a, a program which brought Torah Chabad of Nei Yeshivot. Um, but he used that in the Dati Leumi world, there's like very serious, very rigorous-

59:47 Speaker 2 But who's teaching it to them? Who's teaching these texts to them?

59:49 Speaker 1 Um, so first of-

59:50 Speaker 2 Self-learn?

59:51 Speaker 1 Okay. So first of all, there's a guy in Torah Chabad named, uh, Rav Eliyahu Kirschbaum, from Eliyahu Kirschbaum, who wrote, um, you know, I don't know if you've seen Derech Chitzah before.

59:59 Speaker 2 No.

1:00:00 Speaker 1 Okay. So there's, uh, they, they put out ganz Derech Chitzah beer on, on all Derech Chitzah, which is very, very good. Very, very good.

1:00:05 Speaker 2 But Derech Chitzah is more, more accessible than the classic-

1:00:08 Speaker 1 Derech Chitzah is pretty kabbalistic.

1:00:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. But-

1:00:10 Speaker 1 I would say Derech Chitzah in certain sense is hard on Tzarua.

1:00:11 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:00:12 Speaker 1 You know what I mean? It, it's, it's much more, it's a much more dense read.

1:00:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:00:15 Speaker 1 Right? But they, so they have on, on Derech Chitzah, they have on, uh, Torat Kohelet, right? They have on, you know, all of Tanya, you know.

1:00:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're just talking about other things.

1:00:23 Speaker 1 What?

1:00:23 Speaker 2 Shayech, shayech.

1:00:24 Speaker 1 Ah, ah. Mitn a shayech. Fine. Very good. So is Rav Steinzaltz, right? Rav Steinzaltz, um-

1:00:28 Speaker 2 Has a work on shayech?

1:00:29 Speaker 1 He does not have a work on shayech to the best of my knowledge, but he was teaching this, and he was, uh, popularizing it.

1:00:34 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:00:34 Speaker 1 Um, then there's also Rav Yitzchak Ginsburg and his, and his, uh, and his chug. Um, you know, Yitzchak Ginsburg, meaning, uh, you know, slang yarn. I think he just turned eighty. Um, but, uh, you know, he's, uh, busy popularizing Ayin Beis, teaching Ayin Beis, and he has like a whole massive circle of talmidim.

1:00:50 Speaker 2 Mm.