Ep. 50 // The Blessing of Helping Others w/ Rabbi Mordechai Avtzon

00:00 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe gave me a bracha, which at that moment made me feel that, that I'm, I'm gonna dedicate my life to the, to the Rebbe shlichas. And the bracha that he gave me was that I should be, I should be resembling to be mena'eisen u'maaseh m'cheir u'maaseis. And I didn't really understand what that meant in those days-

00:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

00:21 Speaker 1 ... but I've explained to help other people carry out their duties as Jewish people.

00:31 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. So we are here, a very special jubilee episode of Homesick for Lubavitch, episode number 50, and, uh, it's my honor to have my, uh, my father here on the podcast. Rabbi Mordechai Afson, uh, shliach in Hong Kong, uh, first shliach in Far East Asia, and I believe at the time quite a bit more than Far East Asia. I mean, in terms of being the first in that part of the world, it's actually, um, last week was a kinnis and, uh, a thought occurred to me, I think over Shabbos, that at the time that you went out, um, I believe you were the furthest away probably by quite a bit from a functioning Jewish community, or you could even like a functioning minyan. Like, what was the closest minyan at the time?

01:56 Speaker 1 Sydney or Melbourne.

01:57 Speaker 2 Or Bris- someone said maybe Brisbane. And Brisbane's also eight and a half hour flight. So you're talking about c- a continent away. You're talking about a serious flight away anywhere, in any direction.

02:07 Speaker 1 Right.

02:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. Singapore, there were some traditional Jews, but they weren't a functioning community. They came to you. Correct?

02:16 Speaker 1 It was a struggling community in those days.

02:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. I remember one-- Well, who was the name of the guy who used to come to Hong Kong back in the-- before I burst out, like the balabos who used to come to Hong Kong, Singapore balabos. Used to come for business.

02:31 Speaker 1 Mr. Khafi.

02:32 Speaker 2 Mr. Khafi, yes.

02:33 Speaker 1 Sure. Very good friend.

02:35 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, so I say that just to point out that, uh, um, you know, 40 years, I- I- I should also point out specifically, you told me that this coming Chinese New Year, which is about February time-

02:52 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

02:52 Speaker 2 ... so in a couple of months, it will be 40 years since you went to Hong Kong.

02:57 Speaker 1 Correct.

02:58 Speaker 2 So, um, so I, I don't, I don't say that, I don't say that to, to brag on behalf of my father. Um, frank- frankly, anybody listening to the podcast knows that I'm conflicted about the idea of shlichas so far away from a functioning community. I don't know it's something to brag about, but it's just a fact. Um, and, uh, I, I, I say it more because, you know, as I, as I be-- as I get older and I am now a father of children who are, you know, the eldest is over 10, um, that's more or less the time that I remember well growing up in Hong Kong. And of course, I have memories from earlier, but the time that I remember well is their age. And so I begin to think about what it must mean to, to raise kids and raise a family in Hong Kong on shlichas, um, that far away from anything functioning. Uh, it's, it's qui- it's quite a thing. There's no question about it. And, um, I, I think, I think in terms of the people listening to this podcast, I think w- it would be very interesting for them, but also interesting for me to kinda get the backstory. You know, when you, when you grow up, uh, you know, I, I was obv- I'm obviously your son. I grew up, I grew up in your home. Uh, you take a lot of things for granted. I took a lot of things for granted, and I probably still

04:35 Speaker 2 do. Uh, but, uh, there's a backstory, and it's worth exploring.

04:40 Speaker 1 Right. And you also left home very young.

04:44 Speaker 2 I left home young, yes.

04:45 Speaker 1 Which is, uh, not a simple story.

04:48 Speaker 2 No.

04:48 Speaker 1 And maybe we'll get to that later.

04:51 Speaker 2 Uh-

04:51 Speaker 1 But before we, before we s- start with my story-

04:56 Speaker 2 Yeah

04:57 Speaker 1 ... I just wanna say that, that, uh, while I'm, uh, your father and, and, and adar, adam korov et halatz, my the, this podcast is, uh, providing an incredible service. I'm hearing it from the most likely and the most unlikely sources of people that, uh, including many people who were skeptical about this podcast. But it's, uh, it's becoming a true discussion, a genuine discussion where people are able to question in a respectful but in an analytical way. And, uh, I think this, this is, uh, well overdue, and, and a, and a big yasher koach for, for doing this.

05:48 Speaker 2 Thank you. Appreciate it.

05:51 Speaker 1 So to start with my story, um, I'll start just a little bit with, uh, m- my, my, my, my parents' home Well, I was born in Detroit-

06:05 Speaker 2 Right

06:05 Speaker 1 ... as, as you know, obviously. And, um, it was an interesting childhood because we lived in Detroit where there were not many, that many ｡ at the time.

06:19 Speaker 2 Right.

06:19 Speaker 1 And certainly not many ｡

06:23 Speaker 2 Right.

06:23 Speaker 1 So while your average friend had maybe one or two siblings, we were kind of like the ones that sta- stood out even before the Rebbe came out with the mitzvah of having large families.

06:35 Speaker 2 Right.

06:35 Speaker 1 A fif- a family of 15 people.

06:37 Speaker 2 Right.

06:38 Speaker 1 15 children, and it was quite a contrast to the backdrop of Detroit.

06:45 Speaker 2 Right.

06:45 Speaker 1 And a family that was ｡ People didn't even know what that, what that means in those days.

06:53 Speaker 2 Right.

06:54 Speaker 1 To them, you went to the s- to the grocery and you bought a, a carton of milk.

06:58 Speaker 2 Right.

06:58 Speaker 1 It's just simple as that. An idea of having not only on Yiddishkeit, but on Hasidics and on, uh, and on, and on, you know, proper adherence to the Menahgem and so on, this was, uh, quite, quite a, a big story in Detroit.

07:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:21 Speaker 1 Many people kind of were puzzled, others almost felt bad for us, and others were admired us tremendously. As you know, my parents were not, uh-

07:34 Speaker 2 How did you feel about yourselves? Did you feel bad for yourself?

07:39 Speaker 1 I don't remember ever feeling bad for, for ourself, for, for myself. Um, my parents and my mother particularly gave me a sense of-

07:49 Speaker 2 Just for those who don't know, your parents are Meir and Chen Avson.

07:53 Speaker 1 Right.

07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

07:55 Speaker 1 And, uh-

07:55 Speaker 2 We're gonna, we're gonna have to do that a few times today.

07:57 Speaker 1 Okay.

07:58 Speaker 2 No, 'cause it w- Because I, of course, I know it, but other people don't.

08:03 Speaker 1 Right.

08:03 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:04 Speaker 1 So my, my, my parents, uh, their, their story was survival under Stalin-

08:11 Speaker 2 Right

08:11 Speaker 1 ... and survival of the hunger years.

08:15 Speaker 2 Right.

08:15 Speaker 1 My mother lost both of her parents at a very young and tender age, and, uh-

08:20 Speaker 2 She buried them with her own hands, didn't she?

08:21 Speaker 1 And one of them she buried with her own hands, and she had to stay and watch over the, the kever, uh, all night long to make sure that she would still have it in the, in the morning. Some of the details are not so clear to me, but some of my brothers know the story better.

08:38 Speaker 2 Did she ever speak about it?

08:40 Speaker 1 Very rarely. Very rarely because she, she didn't wanna t- she didn't, didn't want to arouse those feelings. But she was, uh, uh, she was a person of, of action, and her response to all those hunger years and seeing so many people die on the street was that if she would survive the war, and she would, she would be married, she would have as many children as possible.

09:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

09:10 Speaker 1 So much so that, uh, a well-known story in our family that after a good several children before I was born, um-

09:20 Speaker 2 You are, you are

09:21 Speaker 1 ... I'm number 10 of 15.

09:23 Speaker 2 Right.

09:24 Speaker 1 And, uh, my, my mother, my, my mother, uh, was expecting a child and had a very difficult miscarriage, and the doctors, uh, struggled to save her life. The baby was lost, of course, and they told her that she should never have, never try to have any more children because she's putting her life in danger. And my mother's response was ｡ "How? My, my purpose is, is to bring as many Yiddish kinder into the world." And she wrote to the Rebbe.

09:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:59 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe responded that the function of a doctor is spelled out clearly in the Torah, ｡

10:04 Speaker 2 Right.

10:06 Speaker 1 And not to be goy or goyeres.

10:08 Speaker 2 Right.

10:09 Speaker 1 And, uh, the Rebbe said, tell them that you'll have many more children, and she went on to have another eight or nine children after that.

10:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:16 Speaker 1 Not sure exactly where it happened, but I think it was nine children more. And, uh-

10:23 Speaker 2 So this was also quite a few more kids than other Lubavitcher families.

10:27 Speaker 1 In those days, for sure.

10:28 Speaker 2 Right. Did that feel strange?

10:33 Speaker 1 To us, it was just who we were. And, uh-

10:37 Speaker 2 So you were, you were at the time the largest family f- that you know of?

10:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:42 Speaker 2 Not just klapi, the secular community.

10:44 Speaker 1 I, I, I think, I think we heard of another family. I think there was a Yarmush family.

10:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

10:48 Speaker 1 And, uh, in fact, down the street from us was another family which was not Chabad, but very close and good friends, the Goldstein family.

10:57 Speaker 2 Wow.

10:58 Speaker 1 And they had 13 children, but, uh-

11:00 Speaker 2 So it wasn't unheard of, but it was uncommon.

11:02 Speaker 1 It was uncommon.

11:03 Speaker 2 Mm.

11:03 Speaker 1 Right. And, um, interestingly, in spite of having so many children and, uh, and, and, and, uh, being so involved in the community, I never felt that it was, my mother was inaccessible. On the contrary, I felt that she was always available and never felt shortchanged.

11:25 Speaker 2 I, I guess maybe to, to dig a little bit deeper, uh, maybe I'll get to this soon, but just to frame it. Y- you know, you're, you're growing up in, I wouldn't call, uh, you were growing up in Detroit, I wouldn't call it suburban America, but America. Midwest America.

11:42 Speaker 1 Right.

11:43 Speaker 2 Um-

11:43 Speaker 1 Well, in those days they would just call it out of town.

11:46 Speaker 2 Out of town. No, they still call it out of-- The New Yorkers, if anything, have, have call it more out of, uh, they're, they're more like that today. But, um, um, but you, where you lived was not suburban America.

12:02 Speaker 1 Well, n- where I was born was not suburban America.

12:05 Speaker 2 Right.

12:05 Speaker 1 But when that, uh, part of the city became uninhabitable for Jewish people- And became a very dangerous city.

12:14 Speaker 2 Right.

12:14 Speaker 1 So most of the Jews did migrate to the suburbs.

12:17 Speaker 2 So eight m- where, where was the suburbs?

12:19 Speaker 1 Suburbs started at, like, 8 Mile Road.

12:21 Speaker 2 Oh, that's already suburban America?

12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:23 Speaker 2 Okay, so that's cons- oh, so you were-

12:24 Speaker 1 It, it wasn't, it wasn't the posh suburban, but it was the suburban already.

12:28 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So you were born more in the city.

12:29 Speaker 1 Oak Park and Southfield is, is, is suburban America.

12:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. So you were born more in the city.

12:34 Speaker 1 Born in the city.

12:35 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

12:35 Speaker 1 But by the time I was, like, 10 years old, I was already living in suburban America.

12:39 Speaker 2 Oh, Oak Park. So you grew up, so you grew up in su- suburban America in the... This is the '60s, late '60s.

12:46 Speaker 1 Right.

12:47 Speaker 2 Um, so just, you know, whatever image you have of the, of America in the late '60s, it's certainly very, uh, uh, I would think upbeat. Um, maybe not. Maybe already then was, was it, was it Vietnam? Not yet. Was, was Vietnam starting? I don't know if it... I don't know if you would've paid-

13:06 Speaker 1 We were, we were quite sheltered from the news.

13:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. I don't know if you would've paid att- I don't know if you would've paid attention to it. My point is more that America, the su- suburbs were exploding at the time. The affluence was exploding at the time, 'cause after the war is when the suburbs really took off. Uh, and you are here with, you are here in a family of 15, um, which is very un-American at the time, right? So did you feel American? You had two very Russian parents, refugees, immigrants, probably spoke a broken English. I don't know. Zadie, I, I never met probably, but Zadie, I don't think ever spoke English.

13:45 Speaker 1 Not properly, no.

13:46 Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't remember her speaking it at all. But probably spoke English, probably broken.

13:50 Speaker 1 She... Rose, I suppose, spoke English with a very heavy accent.

13:53 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So, so they, they weren't Americans. Did you feel American?

14:01 Speaker 1 Um, I, I, I think in, in those days, people's identity was, uh, you know, people were not so busy with worrying about their identity. Life was just, uh, much, much simpler in those days than it, than it is today.

14:16 Speaker 2 Well, I think, uh, life's, I think, always simpler when you're a child. It's more looking back, did you feel, did you feel like you shared reality with your parents or not? Did... I, I'm not, I don't think you thought of it in those terms at the time, but-

14:28 Speaker 1 No, we just felt very blessed that we were born in America and not have to go through-

14:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

14:32 Speaker 1 ... the suffering and the fear and the dread that they, that we understood that they went through almost on a daily basis. So we felt very blessed.

14:44 Speaker 2 Right. Because it's a very interesting... I don't what the, what the word is, but it's, it's interesting to think about because if your, your, your, your parents are both refugees who escaped the horrors of the old world, right? And yet Lubavitch, in terms of its narrative and mythology, is all in that world, right? The, the Malchik Hasidim, the, the Malchik Yeshivas, the Malchik Derers, right? Your father w- went to Ten Chatum somewhere in Russia and so on. You know, so is that a world that you look back on with fondness and yearning, or is that a world that you're happy to have escaped? And I think that, you know, that translates also to the child growing up in America. Is this, is this the promised land or is this a gosha, gosha medina? Is, is... That's what I'm trying to get to.

15:34 Speaker 1 Right. I, I never, never gave that, that much thought, but I, I think that my father was very grateful to make it to America.

15:42 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:42 Speaker 1 And he knows that America is a country that opened its arms to him and his family. But at the same time, he was even more conscious of the dangers of America in those days of... 'cause America was known as the melting pot.

15:57 Speaker 2 Right. Of course.

15:58 Speaker 1 And he said, "This is not gonna happen with me, and I'm gonna try to make sure that it doesn't happen with my family either."

16:05 Speaker 2 Did he, did he mind when you played baseball, for example?

16:09 Speaker 1 He didn't mind if we played baseball, but when he would find out that we would sneak over to a friend's house and watch baseball on the television, that was a little different.

16:18 Speaker 2 That was not okay.

16:19 Speaker 1 That was not so okay.

16:20 Speaker 2 So, so you could play sports, but you can't follow the... You can't, you can't follow the sports.

16:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, uh, to him, like, first-

16:27 Speaker 2 Was it-

16:27 Speaker 1 ... it was at best a waste of time, and besides that, to him, television in the house was, was proper Avodah Zarah.

16:36 Speaker 2 Was... Could you go to a baseball game?

16:39 Speaker 1 Um, probably if we didn't tell him.

16:43 Speaker 2 Actually, yeah.

16:46 Speaker 1 I mean, if, if the school was going, then, you know, then, then, then, uh, and it was properly supervised.

16:52 Speaker 2 So is, is that something that you at some point look back at with, like, um, uh, like was... Is that something that you feel that y- that you wanted to get a... That you wanted to grow, grow out of and become your own man and be able to watch baseball? Was like... Or, or, or-

17:14 Speaker 1 Look, I was-

17:14 Speaker 2 ... 'cause there's... I'm not, I'm not trying so much to psychoanalyze your childhood. I think it's an important question because the generation of mine growing up, and we'll soon find out about the generation of our children, but the generation of mine growing up grapples a lot with, with this, um, you know, d- d-disconnect or distance between generations, and, and it's always interesting to me to figure out when it began. I mean, you know, uh, uh, uh, a lot of people my age think that people your age, our parents, are more similar to their parents than we are to... That there's a... Many people my age think that the distance between you and your parents is closer than the distance between your generation and us, right? That's what a lot of people think. I happen to be unsure about that. I would even say I happen to think it's wrong. I think that at the end of the day, my generation and your generation, for the most part, was born here, whereas they were born there. That's a much vaster distance that's harder to negotiate. But I think people s- so I think that's why, that's why I'm asking. I'm not trying to over psychoanalyze your childhood, but that's what I'm trying-

18:28 Speaker 1 No, my, my, my view on this, and maybe it's simplistic, is that m- my parents faced existential issues.

18:37 Speaker 2 Right.

18:38 Speaker 1 You, you either conformed to Russia or you, or, or you were harassed and persecuted and often killed-

18:46 Speaker 2 Mm

18:47 Speaker 1 ... or sent to Siberia never to come back home or never to return to normalcy. So they kind of viewed, and my father and mother were different in the, in this sense. My father was a little bit more on the edge with this because he, uh, was running from the KGB for years, and that, that became kind of his, his built-in psyche. But he, uh, he, he s- he saw the challenges of America, while they were not as malicious and, and, and, and as, uh, a- and as, uh, harsh as the ones in Russia, he, they s- he saw them no less, uh, threatening to our identity. And in a l- great, in a large sense, he's, he's right. He was right because, uh, in America, you know, you just, uh, take life a little bit more relaxed. Uh, y- it's impossible for us as children born in America to have been, to, to be, to be as, as intense as he was with that, with that fear. So we learned to respect it, but we were of course much more chilled on that, that, you know, going to a baseball game is not gonna be the end of, is not gonna, is not gonna be the, the, you know, the, it's not gonna be the end of the world. But, uh, to him, you know, America was, uh, a, one, a Medina Sokhesed, but a very treif in a Medina, a very, very unkosher place, and that a person had to be as careful

20:24 Speaker 1 about the threats of the cat as the threats of the rat.

20:28 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So, so he, so he, he felt relieved to be, to be away from the KGB, but he was still on edge?

20:39 Speaker 1 Oh, there was no question about it.

20:41 Speaker 2 Not just from the paranoia of the KGB, but from, but from America itself.

20:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I think it carried over.

20:48 Speaker 2 Right.

20:48 Speaker 1 And he, you know, and he, and he s- he saw how many people in America had, uh, grandparents who were Frum.

20:56 Speaker 2 Right.

20:57 Speaker 1 And they were completely out to lunch as far as Yiddishkeit was concerned, and he knew that if he's gonna just, uh, lay back on this, he, his, his, you know, his chances of witnessing that would be very high. So he was very determined, first and foremost by f- by personal example, to, you know, he would get up early in the morning, and he would learn every day, and he would, uh, learn with us and, and constantly remind us of where we came from. And of course, he did it in a much more Russian, old h- old school kinda way.

21:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

21:36 Speaker 1 But, uh, nonetheless, he was definitely a towering figure and a very inspirational figure, and his, uh, and his, uh, love for Yiddishkeit was unquestionable. So it was

21:49 Speaker 2 You said your mother was different?

21:58 Speaker 1 My mother was, uh, much more pragmatic and, and, and reaching out to people rather than, than analyzing them or, or, or, or lamenting their, you know, their, their lacks, their, their, their relaxed attitude to Yiddishkeit.

22:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

22:16 Speaker 1 And she was, uh, I mean, she was admired by the entire community as being, uh, an activist. She welcomed hundreds of families from Russia and organized Bris in for them and organ-

22:32 Speaker 2 Right

22:32 Speaker 1 ... helped them find, uh, work, and, uh-

22:36 Speaker 2 So she made herself at home here, basically

22:37 Speaker 1 ... and right. So she was, she w- she was much more your typical, she, she, she, she behaved like a typical shlucha would, would behave-

22:46 Speaker 2 Right

22:46 Speaker 1 ... in those, in those years.

22:48 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I mean, it also shows that she, she learned English.

22:55 Speaker 1 Right.

22:55 Speaker 2 Whereas your father did not.

22:57 Speaker 1 Right. Also because my father came to America and had to start working right away to provide for a family.

23:04 Speaker 2 Right. I'm sure there are other reasons, yeah, but y- you're describing-

23:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:07 Speaker 2 ... a, a, a logical reason. If, if, if he was more suspicious of America-

23:12 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:12 Speaker 2 ... then there would be, there would be less of an interest in learning its language, and, uh, the first step to assimilating is to learn the language.

23:21 Speaker 1 Right.

23:21 Speaker 2 Right? Whereas your mother, your, your mother... So at home, I imagine your parents spoke Yiddish, both of them, both of them spoke Yiddish?

23:27 Speaker 1 To each other for sure. My mother and, and my father spoke only Yiddish to us.

23:32 Speaker 2 Right.

23:32 Speaker 1 And, uh, my mother practiced her English with us.

23:36 Speaker 2 Oh, so she did speak to you in English?

23:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, very often she spoke to us in Yiddish as well, but she liked practicing English.

23:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

23:44 Speaker 1 And, uh, and she, uh, you know-

23:47 Speaker 2 Right

23:47 Speaker 1 ... she spoke with a very heavy Russian accent.

23:50 Speaker 2 Right.

23:50 Speaker 1 But, uh, she definitely felt that this was necessary, that otherwise how could she be effective here? And, and she saw her presence in Detroit as a, as an opportunity to bring Yiddishkeit in a warm and welcoming way to as many people as possible.

24:09 Speaker 2 Did you f- did you, did you... So, so I mean, so you're basically an, an immigrant's child, which is not particular or, or unique to Lubavitch. You know, the, the, the immigrant, the immigrant's children growing up in America is, is a story as old as America itself of course. Um, but did you see Am- America as like your future, as like this is where my, my parents are unsure about it, but this, this is my place?

24:40 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. As, as growing up as a child, we were very, uh, I'd say even proud Americans, proud, proud Jewish Americans, as a, as a place that, uh, we can live as a proud Jew.

24:57 Speaker 2 Right.

24:58 Speaker 1 And as a place that, uh, we have rights like anybody else.

25:03 Speaker 2 So you were Americans?

25:04 Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely.

25:05 Speaker 2 Right. This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is A Garden, a new film and concert production by Uvlah Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basay Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over 300 years, to see this world as God sees it, as his garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding onto a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad House and community. Share the message and vision of Basay Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com. You're describing growing up in America, um, as, y- you know, obviously there's no way back to Russia. You're not going back to Russia. It's not desired. It's also not possible at the time. This is still obviously during the Iron Curtain. Um, so Amer- America is where it's at. America is where it's at. Um, how d- how does being a Lubavitcher boy fit into America in your mind?

26:24 Speaker 1 I, I think that, uh, you know, we were, we were fortunate in Detroit that it was l- you know, less, uh, people there are in, in, in what with, what, what New Yorkers call out of town-

26:38 Speaker 2 Right

26:38 Speaker 1 ... are much less judgmental about one another, and they, you know, we lived in a community.

26:43 Speaker 2 Midwestern, yeah.

26:44 Speaker 1 Right. And it was a very communal feeling. And yes, you have Chabad Minhagim, but it was not a big deal, so much so that in fact, this was before Lubavitch really set down its roots in Detroit-

26:59 Speaker 2 Right

26:59 Speaker 1 ... with Shluchim and so on. As a child, our, our shul was a Satmar Shtiebel.

27:05 Speaker 2 So there were Satmar Hasidim?

27:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. There was, there was a Satmar Yid. His name was Reb Sender Deitsch.

27:09 Speaker 2 Right.

27:10 Speaker 1 And he was a very nice man.

27:12 Speaker 2 A Shtreimel or more-

27:13 Speaker 1 Oh

27:13 Speaker 2 ... a, a full avos?

27:15 Speaker 1 Full on. Full on.

27:16 Speaker 2 Ah.

27:16 Speaker 1 Shmoneh BeGedim.

27:17 Speaker 2 No, 'cause there were a lot of Satmar Hasidim that, that did-

27:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, but Shmoneh BeGedim and so on.

27:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

27:21 Speaker 1 And it was a Satmar Shtiebel, and I remember even some of his Nusach on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

27:26 Speaker 2 What was he doing in Detroit?

27:28 Speaker 1 He, uh, I, I, I don't know. I, he see, there were probably a couple of Yidden from Hungary or from, or from Czechoslovakia-

27:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

27:37 Speaker 1 ... or that part of Eastern Europe that probably told him to come there, and, uh, they would, uh, help him start a Shtiebel.

27:45 Speaker 2 I... That was his job.

27:45 Speaker 1 And he, he was, he was like a Shtikel Rebbe, you know?

27:48 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

27:48 Speaker 1 And, and, and we were Maspallem by him in his shul.

27:54 Speaker 2 Uh.

27:54 Speaker 1 And everything was hunky dory. It was just, well, it was, everyone just got along with each other. It became a little tense after the Six-Day War when the Rebbe came out and said that this is a miracle equal to the miracles of Tanakh, and so on and so forth, and Satmar claimed that this was the Koyach of the Sitra Achra, and it became a little bit tense.

28:14 Speaker 2 Right.

28:14 Speaker 1 That, you know, treifene Tzionim and so on and so on, right? You know.

28:18 Speaker 2 Right.

28:19 Speaker 1 But, uh, until then, everybody just did their thing, and, uh, people were less focused on what, uh, on, you know, it was just a simpler existence.

28:33 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I, I think, I don't know if I've shared it on the podcast, but I, I, I went a couple years ago to, to Detroit for a project, um, for a film project.

28:49 Speaker 1 I remember.

28:50 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I went there to interview Rabbi Yehudi Baxt, who's today the Rosh Yeshiva of the, uh, I forget the name of the Yeshiva.

28:58 Speaker 1 Bais Y- well, it was, it's, it's, well, it used to be part of Bais Yehudah, but now it's called, it has its own name.

29:02 Speaker 2 Right. Right, right. The Litvisher Yeshiva in Detroit, um, which is only a few blocks from, from, uh, where the Lubavitch Yeshiva used to be, I think.

29:12 Speaker 1 Right.

29:13 Speaker 2 Uh, anyway, I, I, I met with him, and he already beforehand told me, "Oh, you're Aftson. You know, I know your uncles." So he knew that, he knew that he, he... I already knew that he knew the family, but when I met him, he was, he was so, so warm about it. Um, and he was telling me how, h- how he, um, he Farbrenged on his Kislev as a little boy with, with, it was a, the Aftson. And, uh, I think your brother Isaac was his, was his, uh, was his c- was his age. They were, they were two little boys who used to Farbreng with. He had nobody else to Farbreng with or something. And it just struck me that, yeah, that t- he was at the time the son of the, of his father, who was at the time the Rosh Yeshiva, I think, right?

29:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:00 Speaker 2 Uh, the Rabbi Baxt Senior was Rosh Yeshiva, was the first Rosh Yeshiva there. Now I think it's two brothers. So he was describing an era where the son of the Litvisher Rosh Yeshiva was Farbrenging with Meir Aftson on his Kislev. And I think he even said that he, uh, uh, oh, I don't know if I should say on the podcast, but y- you know, the Far- the, the Farbrengen on his Kislev. A- and, uh, and yeah, so there, the, it does sound like, and it's not only Detroit, but you hear it all over the place. It does sound like there was a time where in these smaller communities, people, people didn't have large enough communities to segregate. People needed each other more.

30:44 Speaker 1 It was a, it was a post-war generation.

30:46 Speaker 2 Right.

30:46 Speaker 1 And Jews were in the mode of, were survivors.

30:49 Speaker 2 Is that what it was?

30:50 Speaker 1 And also, you know, without, at the risk of, of getting trapped in cliches-

30:56 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

30:56 Speaker 1 ... I think the '60s and the early '70s, maybe even throughout the '70s, were golden years.

31:03 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

31:04 Speaker 1 You know, there, there, there, there were, there was much less machlokes between Yidden and pe- people did not demarcate themselves that this is my way and this is not my way. This is reflected by the fact in those-- how many Lubavitcher Bochurim in those days married out of Lubavitch? It was, it was totally common.

31:23 Speaker 2 Right. No, uh, we, we had someone on the podcast talk about it. I think Yankee Tauber spoke about it in one of the episodes, how, uh, he-- I think he, he, he felt that it was to even into the '80s that the community-- Lubavitch was a lot more fluid with other communities.

31:40 Speaker 1 Right.

31:40 Speaker 2 And then it kind of like shut its gates or maybe the gates were shut on it from the outside and, uh-

31:46 Speaker 1 Right.

31:46 Speaker 2 Whatever. But it's a... Yeah, but the... Yes. Yes. Uh, yeah, so that's a, that's a, that's a interesting conversation for itself. But to, uh... for the sake of this conversation, I suppose my question is, you know, where are you? You're, you're the son of, you're the son of immigrants. Their world is not available to you, right? Their, their, their, their path of life, what-- their story, their, their, um, their example in a literal strict, in a strict literal sense is not available to you, right?

32:24 Speaker 1 Right.

32:25 Speaker 2 Right. You can't join-- Your father didn't build a family business for you to join, right? He obviously didn't have a family business. Um, his way of life, his, his, his, his, his whole trajectory was not available to you. So what do you see as a kid growing up? What's your, what's your path? What's your path? Like a lot of immigrant kids, you know, their, their, their parents, their parents work super hard, um, you know, at a, at a menial job very often so that their kids can go to college, so that they, you know, so they can kinda climb the American ladder.

32:58 Speaker 1 Right. So I, I can't remember exactly when, when this dawned on me, but from a very young age, I was, uh, very inspired by the stories of... that my parents went through in Russia. And, uh, at, uh, at-- I remember clearly when I was 11 or 12 years old, uh, Russia started to open up and to let Jews out.

33:23 Speaker 2 Right.

33:23 Speaker 1 And it was actually possible to buy out families and get-- and buy them visas to America.

33:29 Speaker 2 Right.

33:30 Speaker 1 It sounds like a joke today, but in those days you could buy out a family for like two thousand dollars.

33:35 Speaker 2 Right. Well, two thousand dollars then was a lot more.

33:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, two thousand dollars, and I took it upon myself with a couple of friends that we were gonna raise two thousand dollars. And, um, uh, by the time I became Bar Mitzvah, I had only raised a few hundred dollars. I remember exa-- in fact, the exact amount because my father always reminded me that it was Biga Matri Eliazer three hundred and eighteen.

34:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

34:01 Speaker 1 And, uh, he suggested that I take it to the Rebbe in Yechidas and tell him about my activities.

34:08 Speaker 2 Right.

34:09 Speaker 1 So I took it, I took it-

34:10 Speaker 2 One second. How did you raise the money?

34:12 Speaker 1 Uh, by making picnics and by going door to door with the little, uh, milk cartons that had little like piggy banks in them, and that had a bear on them, and Russia was the coun-- the, the-

34:25 Speaker 2 Right

34:26 Speaker 1 ... anim- the, the symbol of Russia is a bear.

34:28 Speaker 2 So people, people were giving you quarters, maybe a dollar bill.

34:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. No. A dollar was a huge donation.

34:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:35 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

34:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:36 Speaker 1 Right?

34:37 Speaker 2 Yeah. Sounds like Detroit.

34:39 Speaker 1 You're talking about, you're talking about the early '70s.

34:42 Speaker 2 Sorry. I, I had to put it in there.

34:43 Speaker 1 Right.

34:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

34:44 Speaker 1 Early, late '60s, early '70s, right?

34:46 Speaker 2 Uh, adiem.

34:48 Speaker 1 Okay. But, uh, but it was, uh, but it, it, it wa- it was a lot of fun and, and my father encouraged me to take it to the Rebbe, and I, and I, you know, just innocently went along with that idea. And, uh, when I came to Yechidas, uh, my father mentioned to the Rebbe, I don't remember if he said, if he said it, uh, if he s- if he said it to the Rebbe or he wrote it to the Rebbe, that, uh, that I've been doing this. And the Rebbe gave me a brocha, which at that moment made me feel that, that I'm, I'm gonna dedicate my life to the, to the Rebbe'sh Shlichus.

35:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

35:25 Speaker 1 And the brocha that he gave me was that I should be, I should be "..." And I didn't really understand what that meant in those days.

35:37 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

35:38 Speaker 1 But the Rebbe explained to help other people carry out their duties as Jewish people.

35:44 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

35:45 Speaker 1 So in my young mind at that time, I kinda... I said, "Amen" and my, my, my thought was that I wanna be the Rebbe Shliach.

35:55 Speaker 2 Was it in terms of Shlichus already in those days? 'Cause what you were doing at up to that point was more a typical kind of Jewish Hasakanus, right?

36:04 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Right. But, but, but I was, I was-

36:07 Speaker 2 Even the way the, even the Rebbe, the Rebbe described it wasn't so much Shlichus, it was more-

36:12 Speaker 1 Right. Correct. But, you know, to, to-- just to be in the, in the Rebbe's service, to be to, to, to, to, to extend my life and to do more, more and more of that.

36:23 Speaker 2 That's a... It's, it-- I think it's an important question here because was, was Shlichus yet-- Was that a-- What, what... Is... Was that a... Was that like a word in circulation? That's how people described-

36:35 Speaker 1 I would say that my knowledge of Shlichus in those days on a scale of, of one to 10 was maybe one or, one or, or one and a half. But the po- the, the point is that, uh, when you, when you walked into the Rebbe's room in those days when you could still have Yechidas, the Rebbe was totally captivated every fiber of your being because he re- he, he was focused on you as if he was-- as if there was nothing else going on in his life So much so that Rebbe, and I understand that this was typical in those days, asked my father, uh, if, if the bar mitzvah boy is going to be saying something for, for the... In honor of his bar mitzvah.

37:24 Speaker 2 Uh, so this is your bar mitzvah yechidas?

37:26 Speaker 1 My bar mitzvah yechidas.

37:26 Speaker 2 So the story started when you were 11 or 12-

37:28 Speaker 1 Yeah

37:28 Speaker 2 ... but this is already at your bar mitzvah.

37:30 Speaker 1 Right.

37:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

37:32 Speaker 1 You know, and until I started raising money, it took a few months, and we just-

37:35 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

37:35 Speaker 1 ... spoke about it with kids, and so on and so forth. Everything was kind of at slow pace in those days.

37:39 Speaker 2 So, so this is the bar mitzvah?

37:40 Speaker 1 This is at bar mitzvah, and the Rebbe asked my father, uh, "Is the bar mitzvah boy gonna say something?" Of course, he said it in Yiddish, so my father hinted to me to say the maimer. So like a typical Lubavitch boy-

37:54 Speaker 2 Isur v'hest

37:54 Speaker 1 ... I held onto the table, and I started shaking a little.

37:57 Speaker 2 You wearing a hat already?

37:59 Speaker 1 I, I went there with a hat, yes.

38:01 Speaker 2 Ah. So it's your bar mitzvah already?

38:02 Speaker 1 It was, it was the week before my bar mitzvah.

38:04 Speaker 2 So, okay.

38:04 Speaker 1 So I was already putting on tefillin.

38:05 Speaker 2 All right. Okay.

38:07 Speaker 1 Those days we didn't put on a bentham until-

38:09 Speaker 2 Yeah

38:09 Speaker 1 ... we were 18, but-

38:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

38:10 Speaker 1 ... but, uh, I, I was puttin'- I was wearing a hat, and I said, "Isur v'hest hilim" and the Rebbe listened to me for about a line or two, and he said, with a twinkle in his eye, "Ote dem minyan habagrade gehört kame ve kame paimim."

38:26 Speaker 2 Uh .

38:27 Speaker 1 "I heard this a number of times," for the benefit of those that don't speak Yiddish. Uh, "Is he going to say something in nigle?" So my father said that he was learning with me the first year that in yeshiva we were learning that year Kidushin, and that he was, and he was learning with me the first shiur of Reb Yehuda Eber, Hasham Mincha U'dama.

38:50 Speaker 2 Right.

38:51 Speaker 1 From Shaarei Yehuda.

38:52 Speaker 2 Right.

38:52 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe says, "No."

38:55 Speaker 2 All right.

38:56 Speaker 1 So I started saying this shiur, the, the, the pilpul.

38:59 Speaker 2 Right.

39:00 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe started asking me questions, and at about the seventh or eighth question, I started to struggle, and the Rebbe didn't allow me, and I understand that this was common to many other bar mitzvah yechidas, didn't allow me to, to, to sizzle in my embarrassment that I didn't have an answer for him. As soon as he saw the bar mitzvah bocher struggle, that's when he showered brochos.

39:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

39:28 Speaker 1 Like, like there was, like, like there was nothing else in the world.

39:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

39:32 Speaker 1 And the, the, the connection that one felt, I mean, of course in Lubavitch we weren't tr- we, we're trained differently, but it was a kind of experience that you would wanna walk over to the Rebbe and give him the, the biggest hug.

39:45 Speaker 2 Hmm.

39:47 Speaker 1 Like, like, like, like, like having a, a, a loving zeide, which I, I didn't have grandparents at all, and this was like-

39:56 Speaker 2 Oh, that's interesting. That's, that's interesting. So b- but the Rebbe wasn't much older than your father, was he?

40:04 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was, uh, uh, about 10 years older.

40:09 Speaker 2 Right.

40:09 Speaker 1 Or, or-

40:10 Speaker 2 So he wasn't, he wasn't, he wouldn't even have been technically your-

40:13 Speaker 1 No

40:13 Speaker 2 ... zeide's age.

40:13 Speaker 1 But, but still, the, the-

40:14 Speaker 2 But the stature, yeah

40:15 Speaker 1 ... the stature, and so on.

40:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

40:17 Speaker 1 And, and you saw, and I, and I saw the way my father had such incredible respect for the, for, for, for the Rebbe.

40:24 Speaker 2 Right.

40:24 Speaker 1 And stood there like, uh, you know, like a-

40:27 Speaker 2 That's also interesting. Your f- your father was a Chassid of the Frierdiker Rebbe, obviously, back in the day.

40:31 Speaker 1 He was.

40:32 Speaker 2 Right. And, and, and he... But it was the same.

40:37 Speaker 1 Absolutely. He, he, he didn't struggle in transition at all.

40:40 Speaker 2 That's, uh, always a very interesting thing to me. I mean, I mean, a lot of people today, uh, in a way, this question is completely irrelevant at this point, but, um, you know, a lot of people today like to question the Chassidim of the Frierdiker Rebbe for struggling to make a transition to, to the, to the Rebbe after. And then you ask them, "Well, would you how quickly would you move on if you had, you know, the opportunity?" Uh, like the, you know, the, the real, the real heated up bikusharim . You know, like-

41:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

41:22 Speaker 2 ... how, how quickly would you give that up?

41:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I don't-

41:27 Speaker 2 It is-

41:27 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't, I don't know if this is in the right spirit, but there's, there's, there's a... Unfortunately, there's a lot of people in, in amongst us in, in Lubavitch that have opinions on things that, that are not all that well thought out, and it's very easy to be, to be critical of other people.

41:46 Speaker 2 Right.

41:47 Speaker 1 And, uh, you know.

41:50 Speaker 2 I mean, your, your father, poshet, was mesir nefesh under the guidance of the Frierdiker Rebbe. Like, he, he literally laid down his life under the guidance-

41:59 Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely

42:00 Speaker 2 ... of the Frierdiker Rebbe. So, you know, the, the idea that when the Frierdiker Rebbe passes away, he just transfers that allegiance to his son-in-law, who he maybe never even heard of before, because if the Rebbe didn't... I mean, in, in America, I guess the Rebbe was, was, was involved with the Frierdiker Rebbe. But in Russia, where your father was a w- w- where, where was the last contact with the Frierdiker Rebbe, right?

42:28 Speaker 1 Right.

42:29 Speaker 2 There was, the, the Rebbe was not in public at all as a heir apparent.

42:33 Speaker 1 Right.

42:34 Speaker 2 He was not involved in the court of the Frierdiker Rebbe at all, at least not publicly. For him to transfer his loyalty to the Rebbe, like, that's not a, that's not a obvious thing to happen, right? As-

42:49 Speaker 1 Of course.

42:50 Speaker 2 Right. Um, but I, I do wanna circle back a little bit to, to you talking about, uh, deciding that you wanna go on shlichus vis-a-vis thinking of askonus. Because growing up in Hong Kong, um, uh, growing up in your Chabad house, um- I actually sensed, at least compared to what I would see later on in life, at the time, I took it for granted. But it was... I wouldn't say it wasn't, it was not, it was less shluchus, but I, I did not f- I, I felt that there was always this idea of spreading Yiddishkeit. Like, that was always the, the, the, the-- that was, that was the mission, period, end of story. It wasn't this thing of like, you know, being on shluchus for the sake of, you know, being a bigger Hasid. At least I never f- I, I did not feel that that was the, the, the motivation there. I felt that... Not that it was not the motivation, but I didn't feel like that was the goal to like, to, to, to, to, you know, to be a big mekushar, and that's why we're here in Hong Kong. Like, we're here in Hong Kong to spread Yiddishkeit to people that need it. At least that's what, that's what I sensed. And, you know, I also sensed in the sen- in the fact that like, you, you always, you, you, you very often would, uh, would talk about other kinds of hasganim, not Lubavitch. There was-- I remember you mentioned a few

44:27 Speaker 2 times a rav in Panama, I forget his name.

44:29 Speaker 1 Otziel Levy.

44:30 Speaker 2 Yes, yes. There, there were different people that were involved in Afat Sayadis. Not Afat Samayadis, Afat Sayadis, that you, that you felt a kinship to, right?

44:41 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

44:42 Speaker 2 Right. So that's why, that's why I feel like it's important to point out, you know, w- did you... What... How did you view this commitment that you made as a young teenager? Was it, was it to... Eventually, yes, you, you didn't go... You went to Hong Kong. The only reason you end up-- and we'll get to the story later. The only reason you ended up in Hong Kong was for shluchus, obviously. Nobody, nobody else was insane enough to send somebody there or to, uh, or to, to go there on their own accord, obviously. But it seems like, it seems like there was a commitment to, to Yiddishkeit. And not so mu- I don't, I don't know. Not so much this, this, uh, I, I, I need to be a shliach because that's a... You know what I mean?

45:31 Speaker 1 No, I, I, I... In fact, I, I th- I think that's correct, and I think that the, that is attributed to the fact that my understanding and, you know, Hashem forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding from the Rebbe was that there was, that he was a shining example of Yiddishkeit.

45:56 Speaker 2 Mm.

45:57 Speaker 1 And that it's not about, you know, about, about, uh, the Chabad way or, or, or, or, or the highway.

46:07 Speaker 2 Right.

46:09 Speaker 1 Chabad, uh, to, to me, the, the Rebbe was, was, uh, committed to bringing people back to, to Yiddishkeit, and, uh, you know, i- if, if they find their way in a Sephardi shul, wonderful. If they find their way by going back to roots of their, uh, Hungarian roots, that's, that's, that's, that's also, that's also fine.

46:35 Speaker 2 Right.

46:36 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was interested in bringing children back home.

46:39 Speaker 2 Right.

46:39 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe very much recognized the, that, that there are many, you know, «Harbeh deracham lamokim». And, uh, you know, it, it, it... We, we can't, we can't take, uh, like, like, like, like, you know, some people say, uh, "How m- how many kapotes you have in your, in your shul?"

47:02 Speaker 2 Right.

47:05 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't think that that's, that that's what determines the success.

47:11 Speaker 2 Right.

47:11 Speaker 1 How many Yidden are Shomer Sha- how many Yidden are, are starting to keep Shabbos? To me, that, that's, that, that, that's, that's what really counts. To, to, to, to take the, the Lubavitch edge of it and supersede that over everything else, I think is, uh, is a, is a disservice-

47:32 Speaker 2 Right

47:33 Speaker 1 ... to, to, to... Pers- personally. I'm sure some people would, would, would, uh, debate that, and, you know, everyone entitled to their opinion.

47:42 Speaker 2 Right.

47:42 Speaker 1 But, uh, I, I, I, I s- I s- I see, I see the, the Rebbe first and foremost concerned that, that Yidden should, uh, reconnect with, with their roots.

47:57 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, it also played out in Hong Kong. I don't know, I, I don't know that, I don't know that this was the cause of it, but it, it did play out in Hong Kong that unlike... I mean, there are other shluchim like this too, but by and large, I, I don't think that most shluchim have to worry about their Jewish infrastructure from literally ground up, right? Like, there's k- there's kosher food, but you want Lubavitch shchita. There's, there's a, there's a mikvah, but you want «be'al gavui be'er». There's, you know, there's... Especially today, there's more and more Jewish infrastructure around you, and then you wanna be more particular. You want your kids to have a Lubavitch chinuch as opposed to a Stam Yiddish chinuch or so on. Right? Hong Kong, I remember you literally have to... Every single thing starts from zero, right? There's no, there's no, there's no, uh, kosher, literally. No kosher. There's no, there's no mikvah. There's no... I mean, the mikvah happened before I was born, but, uh, but I remember the, I remember the kosher being a thing. We didn't have any dairy growing up. Um, every... You know, so everything... You're, you're fighting for Yiddishkeit. You're not fighting for, for, for, for Lubavitch in Hong Kong. I mean, that c- you're also fighting for that, but, but you're not, but -

49:17 Speaker 1 Hundred, 100%.

49:20 Speaker 2 Right.

49:22 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't think there's much to add to that because I, I, I think that that's, I think that... I personally, I think that that's the Rebbe's kavannah.

49:30 Speaker 2 Right.

49:30 Speaker 1 And I think that that's a obvious, uh, priority in Yiddishkeit.

49:38 Speaker 2 All right. I'm, I'm not trying to get you to, to argue with, with, with, with s-some s- people out there. I, I am just commenting on, on how I observed it as, as, as... Especially in many ways, as I got older and I started seeing other ways of Chabad houses and shluchus and other ways that people des-described it, and I began to realize more and more that there was, uh, in my opinion, a profound difference or distinction between, you know, what I had grown up with compared to what a lot of others had grown up with. Um, yeah, uh, and I, and I, and I think it's, it's interesting that you tied back to that, to that bar mitzvah Yechidas, and even the way that the rabbi described the, the bracha that the rabbi gave you was, was, uh, y- you know, you also described your mother's pragmatism. It sounded very like, you know, like a pragmatic kind of bracha almost, in a sense like, help other people help people. Uh, what, what did you say it was?

50:42 Speaker 3 "Oisen u'masen acheirim."

50:44 Speaker 2 Right. Help people-

50:46 Speaker 3 Right

50:46 Speaker 2 ... do it, do it themselves.

50:48 Speaker 3 Right.

50:49 Speaker 2 Right? And, you know, I mean, just, just, just, just, just to, just to be clear, uh, it, there, there are, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of Baalei Tshuva that have come out of your Chabad house, and many of them are very close to Lubavitch, and many of them are Lubavitchers. It's not , it's not, it's not like you were pushing people away from it.

51:14 Speaker 3 Right.

51:14 Speaker 2 Right? Um, but, uh, you know, there was the, there was a sense, at least growing up, that, you know, we're here for, for Yiddishkeit. Um, uh, you know, also, you know, like, it's funny. It's funny, I know, I know we're kind of jumping off on a tangent here, but, uh, you know, uh, probably about a year ago, to, to my, to my to some of my kids' dismay, um, yeah, I don't even know how to... I don't know, like, why it happened, but, uh, you know, this childhood memory of, uh, the, the Majitz Bar Kochba being sung in the shul on, uh, Shabbos day, uh, 'cause, uh, we haven't gotten up to it. But, you know, the, the... By the time I was growing up, uh, or actually for the years of, like, when I, when I, before I left home to yeshiva, those years was when most of the, most of your activity on Shabbos at least was with the out-of-town guests, the, the businessmen-

52:19 Speaker 3 Right

52:19 Speaker 2 ... that came in from out of town. And most of them were Frum, obviously, if they're coming to shul on, on, on... Most of them, not all of them, but most of them were either Haimisha, Frum Yiden from all kinds of different walks of life, Chassidishe, Litvishe, Etz HaTzaddik. Like, everybody was mixed in this one shul, which was a really phenomenal kind of, um, experience, especially looking back. Very unusual. And I just remember for whatever reason that, like, there was this nigun that would stick out to me, the, the, the, the Majitz Bar Kochba. I don't know. I don't know, I guess it was sung a few times a year by the people that liked the song, and the part of "Asher Kochachim," the, that, where the nigun kind of goes up-

53:01 Speaker 3 Right

53:02 Speaker 2 ... stuck with me. Um, yeah, I also remember Lubavitch nigunim growing up. I remember that too, but, but I don't know how many, how many Shluchim kids, um, would say that one of their, like, distinct childhood memories is the Majitz Bar Kochba being sung by who knows who in their Chabad house. Um, yeah, and I s- so I, I sing it now quite, uh, quite often, almost every Shabbos at home. It's just, it's, it's, it's just interesting how the, th- that the shape of the shlichus that you undertook was, in my, in my estimation, very much a, um, like a continuation of the activity that you did as a y- as a teenager of raising money for Russian Jews.

53:54 Speaker 3 Right. You know, a lot of people use the, the, the sisma or the, may- maybe it's even a cliché, "Chassidim ein mishpacha."

54:05 Speaker 2 Right.

54:06 Speaker 3 My upbringing made me look at it that "Kol Yisrael ein mishpacha."

54:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

54:12 Speaker 3 And, and to me, you know, I remember there was a Yid, uh, we used to have a mohel who used to come out to Hong Kong. His name was Brody Stern.

54:20 Speaker 2 I don't remember him.

54:22 Speaker 3 And, uh, his, his, and his cousin was Shalom Bernstein, a businessman that would come in, and he would say in the early '80s, and I'm sorry, in the early '90s, that, uh, "The world is busy critiquing Chabad. Mashiach is coming, he's not coming. He's here already, he's not here already." He said, "Ich weiß nicht. I don't know what to say on this, on this subject, but I can tell you that maybe to London he hasn't come, and maybe to New York he hasn't come, but to Hong Kong he's here already, because-

54:56 Speaker 2 That's what, that's what this guy said.

54:58 Speaker 3 Yes. Because we sit here, Vizhnitzer, Satmar, Belzer, Chabadsker, uh, Litvish, Kippa Sruga-

55:09 Speaker 2 Yeah

55:09 Speaker 3 ... non-re- religious, non-religious. We sit all as one family, and we put aside all of our differences, and we have an amazing experience of Yiddishkeit.

55:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

55:20 Speaker 3 So to me, if, if "Chassidim is ein mishpacha," then Kol Yisrael should be one mishpacha as well.

55:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. I re- I remember growing up, I mean, there was always, always, uh, the shul in the Chabad house always included different minhagim, and you also allowed people sometimes to, um, use their own nusach or use their, certainly their own tunes during davening. Uh, it was very, uh, kind of a, a melting pot of different minhagim and, and, and, and flavors and, uh, obviously all Kefi halo to clarify, uh, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't some kind of a jamboree of nonsense, but it was, you know, it was, um- It was, it was very... There was Sefardishe leanings, Sefardishe chazzanim, uh, you know, uh, all very mixed. I mean, one of your best friends, I mean, in terms of the businessmen coming through for, for me growing up was, uh, Uncle, Uncle Yosh, Yoselle Wallhandler-

56:24 Speaker 3 Yeah

56:25 Speaker 2 ... uh, who, I, I don't know what he calls himself today, but he, he used to be a Satmar Hasid. Uh, right?

56:32 Speaker 3 Certainly was raised that way, right.

56:33 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And they dress, dressed that way for sure.

56:37 Speaker 3 Right.

56:37 Speaker 2 And, um, they still wears a shtreimel on Shabbos.

56:41 Speaker 3 Right.

56:41 Speaker 2 Right? And, uh, that was normal. You know, he's, he's your, he's your good friend and, uh, you know, we called him Uncle Yoselle. Um, I, I- it could be it's more common than I think it is, but it w- you know, I think it's just, I think it's just worth, worth emphasizing, worth emphasizing a little.

57:00 Speaker 3 Yeah. As a, as a young shliach, it was very meaningful to me when one, one time we invited, uh, Rabbi Manny Shahar, alav ha-shalom, to Hong Kong-

57:09 Speaker 2 Right

57:09 Speaker 3 ... for a series of lectures.

57:10 Speaker 2 He came a few times.

57:12 Speaker 3 I think he came two or three times.

57:14 Speaker 2 Yeah.

57:14 Speaker 3 But I think it was on the first trip that he came and he said, "This is the kind of Chabad house that the Rebbe had in mind when he started sending shluchim."

57:23 Speaker 2 Really?

57:24 Speaker 3 Yeah.

57:25 Speaker 2 What did he explain?

57:26 Speaker 3 Yeah, he said, "You know, this is a place that really cares about Jews, where they are, how they are, and is not busy, you know-"

57:36 Speaker 2 Litigating.

57:37 Speaker 3 "L-," exactly. I don't know if he used the word litigating, but that was the, that was the substance of what he said.

57:42 Speaker 2 Yeah.

57:43 Speaker 3 Or, or advocating one way over another way.

57:48 Speaker 2 I mean, I, I think that's probably one of the nice things of, of being in Hong Kong for all its challenges, is that you kind of i- in a way are away from, like you, you were talking earlier about how in Detroit after the war everybody's trying to survive, like maybe in a more physical material sense. But i- in a Jewish sense, Hong Kong people are trying to survive religiously. I mean, there are plenty of politics I don't know how much that in the community, but, but, you know, in terms of the people that came to live there and came to visit, you know, they're, they're-- there's no, there's no other, there's no, there's, there's no other choice. You gotta make it work together, right? And there's, uh... I mean, you, you opened up a, you opened up a school, uh, the school that I went to as a, as a, as a boy. Um, and, you know, the-- I, I'm sure it was a conscious choice to, to not make it a Chabad school per se, but to ensure instead that the school would be a community school that had as its backbone a, a, a standard of from halachic Yiddishkeit.

59:03 Speaker 3 Right.

59:04 Speaker 2 Right? Right. Like I'm sure that was a choice to say, "We can include more people and more children in this school."

59:14 Speaker 3 And be more inclusive.

59:15 Speaker 2 Yes.

59:16 Speaker 3 Right. And, and I think it's worth sharing, uh, with the, the listeners of this podcast that, uh, when, when we made the school, which clearly, uh, we, we, we established it-

59:32 Speaker 2 Right

59:32 Speaker 3 ... and it's acknowledged as, as such. But, uh, as the discussions with the community evolved and we realized that there were certain things that are very important to Chabad that we might have to give a pass on, I was wondering if I perhaps failed to be mechaven to the kavana of the Rebbe.

59:56 Speaker 2 Right.

59:57 Speaker 3 And I-

59:58 Speaker 2 Give an example of something that's like that you're, that you're not insisting on as a Lubavitcher

1:00:04 Speaker 3 For one of, one of the issues in this, in the community was the longstanding families that are established and over there, and we weren't 100% sure about their geyres and so on and so forth.

1:00:14 Speaker 2 Their yiches.

1:00:15 Speaker 3 And their, their, their yiches and so on. And we knew that the community was not going to stand up and disallow these children to come to the school-

1:00:24 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:24 Speaker 3 ... and so on. And, and, and, and I, and I felt that if this was gonna be a, a project that the community was gonna embrace and support-

1:00:32 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:33 Speaker 3 ... but then I, you know, I thought that maybe some other people kind of hinted to me that maybe I was being a little bit too relaxed and too, too, uh-

1:00:44 Speaker 2 Karl Bach in.

1:00:45 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know, too Chabad-kik kind of-

1:00:49 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:00:49 Speaker 3 ... in this whole thing. So I actually discussed it with, uh, with your Zedi. I discussed it with, uh, with, uh, with, with Mashpiah. And, uh, and he said, "Look, you, you can't ask the Rebbe now that you've done that if this is the right thing. You have to find a different way to write it." So he suggested that I write to the Rebbe, that liebe Noichvi, that perhaps I wasn't, uh, as strong as I should have been. And, uh, and I hope that, uh, that the end product is something that's going to bring nachas to the Rebbe. Uh, you know, and I can't ask the Rebbe if, if, bidieved if I did the right thing-

1:01:32 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:33 Speaker 3 ... 'cause it was already in motion. It was kind of already too much already going forward. And the Rebbe could have answered me askar ha-latzion.

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:44 Speaker 3 Rebbe could have said, "Brocha and hatslocha." The Rebbe actually circled the line nachas ruach-

1:01:49 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:49 Speaker 3 ... and made a line-

1:01:51 Speaker 2 And could have also answered that he was upset about it.

1:01:52 Speaker 3 Right. You know, the, the, me-- the Re- the Rebbe is when, when you know, when, when something is not right, the Rebbe stood up to it.

1:02:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:02 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe circled the words na- nachas ruach and made a line to the top of the page And wrote Bravo with two exclamation marks

1:02:11 Speaker 2 About the school?

1:02:12 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:02:13 Speaker 2 Right. Carmel School.

1:02:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, you know, is everything and every detail of the school and everything that goes on in the school, is it, is it, uh, b'ruach Yisroel Saba?

1:02:26 Speaker 2 No, Lubavitcher Kanoim would have a lot of problems with the school. It, it, it, it, it's theories on Zionism are not in alliance with, uh, in alignment with, with Lubavitch.

1:02:37 Speaker 3 That, that was another issue, of course.

1:02:38 Speaker 2 At, at least back, back, you know, a few years ago. I mean, you know, there, there were a lot of, there were a lot of things. It's not the kind of school that you would set up for Lubavitchers, not by any-

1:02:49 Speaker 3 Right

1:02:49 Speaker 2 ... stretch of imagination.

1:02:49 Speaker 3 Right. And if there was a Lubavitch community, that's not the kind of school that we would practically-

1:02:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:53 Speaker 3 ... uh, set up. But, uh, given the dynamics of who we had in the community and who the players were-

1:02:59 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:00 Speaker 3 ... and what the c- what, and what, you know, what, what's, uh, what we thought is achievable and what's not achievable, we did the best we can.

1:03:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:09 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe very much expressed that, uh, that, uh, he was very happy with the, with, with, with, with, with the, the result.

1:03:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:24 Speaker 3 So my understand-- You know, t- to, to me, the Rebbe was the ultimate, uh, Oy Yisroel.

1:03:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:03:39 Speaker 3 And, uh, I, I personally find it very difficult when, when some of our people are, are, are very critical of, of, of other Yidden and, and, and mach, you know, and, and, and are, are l- little, uh, you know, li- loose on their tongue with, with, with, with the way other people do things.

1:04:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:05 Speaker 3 Because, yes, we, we, we are fortunate to have the teachings of the, the guidance of the Rebbe in the way we do things, but that, that should be all to the benefit and, and, and bolster our Oy Yisroel and acceptance of other people as they are, not it shouldn't translate into, into-

1:04:30 Speaker 2 Right

1:04:30 Speaker 3 ... into building a, an us and them kind of.

1:04:33 Speaker 2 Right. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening 10 years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Boniolum, Torah Mesora, and Atalahon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. I'm thinking now, I, I actually remember that, you know, when I was, uh, I'm sure you remember this as well from your side of the, of the fence, but, uh, you know, when I was in yeshiva, I actually like I, you know, I, I've probably mentioned on the podcast a few times, uh, I was a bit of an extremist in yeshiva. Um, I don't know if I was rebelling against my parents or rebelling against I don't know what. But yeah, I went, I went full, I went full bore in yeshiva. And part of that included not, not so much a open hostility towards what you're doing in the Chabad house, but yeah, whatever,

1:06:08 Speaker 2 it's not-- I mean, it's so silly for me to look back at it, to even think that I thought this way. But, you know, I, I was so kind of immersed in the world of Lubavitch that, you know, the idea that in this, that in your Chabad house, our Chabad house, um, there was a little bit more kind of openness to other ways of Yiddishkeit, like I felt that was a little bit, uh, lukewarm. You know what I mean? I, I, I thought it was, uh, um, it wasn't as zealous as it should be, let's say. And again, I'm not defending that point of view. I think it's ridiculous, but that's how I used to think. Um, and I remember very vividly, like one of the turning points and a realization that no, no, you were right all along about this. Um, I, I don't think it was just growing up and, you know, a lot of everybody recognizes at some point that their, that their, that their parents are, are, are smarter than they thought they were. But, um, I remember we, we lived in Eretz Yisrael for a few months after we were married. And I remember distinctly, like it, like, like it was yesterday, we were in the shuk on Friday afternoon, and the shuk gets very, very busy-

1:07:31 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

1:07:31 Speaker 2 ... obviously on Friday afternoon. And I remember there was this adorable family business. You could see the father and the son, and maybe there's a grandson there. I think they sold tzamutzim, you know, like the pickled stuff and some fish or whatever, one of 10 stores that sold the same thing. You know, salt of the earth Israelis with the kippah sruga, like, you know. I didn't get to know them, but I saw them every week. And I remember every week, you know, they would close in the heat of like the shuk, shuk's still bustling, they close for Shabbos. And it wasn't like they could have kept Shabbos and kept it open longer, but no, they, you know, Shabbos is coming, we're closing shop. May- maybe it sounds silly, um, but I remember at the time like, "Wait a second, these people are not Lubavitchers. They're not Hasidim." They're... Most, you know, uh, most Lubavitchers were not even their home, you know? But look at how they are treating Shabbos.

1:08:38 Speaker 3 Yeah, their love for Yiddishkeit, their passion.

1:08:40 Speaker 2 Their love for Yiddishkeit, their passion, passion. This, this is what we describe in Gemara. This is, this is, this is Judaism. I'm not... And it's like, it's not the question anymore is, are, am I better than them? Are they better than me? I, I, uh, at that point I was relatively certain they were better than me, but that wasn't the question. The question was more, Yiddishkeit is very, very vast. There are many, there are many traditions. Um, you know, you can love your own tradition and, and, and, and cherish your own tradition and, and even prioritize your own tradition and your own heritage without dismissing all the others, right? You know?

1:09:18 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

1:09:19 Speaker 2 One... So that is, you know, for whatever it's worth, for whatever, and whatever it means to you, I, I, I... That was one turning point in my life when I realized, okay, wait a second, um, maybe my father was right. So

1:09:37 Speaker 3 No, but- ... y- you know, you know, one, one of the, one of the Baalei Teshuva from Chabad of Hong Kong, you know him well. His name is Rafi Rachamim.

1:09:46 Speaker 2 I actually don't know him well. I know of him well. He left-

1:09:49 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:09:49 Speaker 2 ... he left when I was a little boy.

1:09:50 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:50 Speaker 2 But he's one of the, one of the first Baalei Teshuva.

1:09:53 Speaker 3 And one of the first Baalei Teshuva.

1:09:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:09:55 Speaker 3 And he became a Talmud movak of, uh, Rabbonim Perez.

1:10:02 Speaker 2 The, the Mekubal.

1:10:03 Speaker 3 The, the Mekubal.

1:10:04 Speaker 2 The Sfarad, the Sfaradi Mekubal.

1:10:05 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:07 Speaker 2 Who was that? The, the, the Perez who came as a „Chazan," his father?

1:10:10 Speaker 3 His father, yes.

1:10:11 Speaker 2 Ah, I didn't know they-

1:10:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. So he passed away, and, uh, he had many, many berachos from the Rebbe. And due to this, uh, to this Ra- Rafi Rachamim, hundreds if not thousands of Yidden came closer to Yiddishkeit, because he was „meifetz". He was

1:10:30 Speaker 2 Oh, he became-

1:10:34 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:10:34 Speaker 2 ... but it wasn't his job. He was a-

1:10:36 Speaker 3 No

1:10:36 Speaker 2 ... a programmer.

1:10:37 Speaker 3 He worked for a bank.

1:10:38 Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right.

1:10:39 Speaker 3 In fact, he's the one who solved the Y2K pro- one of the people who solved the Y2K problem-

1:10:43 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:10:43 Speaker 3 ... the computers.

1:10:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:45 Speaker 3 He's an absolute genius.

1:10:46 Speaker 2 Right. So wait, wait, let's say, so you have to backtrack a little bit. In, in Hong Kong, when you came, he was one of the people who was not, not religious and-

1:10:54 Speaker 3 Not religious. He was anti-religious

1:10:56 Speaker 2 ... anti-religious and living, I guess, with the, with the Chinese.

1:10:59 Speaker 3 No, no, no.

1:11:00 Speaker 2 Oh, he's not-

1:11:00 Speaker 3 He, he was living on his own.

1:11:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:03 Speaker 3 You know, and, uh, and when I invited him to come to a shiur, he said, "Dream along."

1:11:10 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:10 Speaker 3 "Not interested in your shiur, and if I do come to the shiur, I'm gonna pelt you with questions."

1:11:15 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:11:15 Speaker 3 And I finally got him to come to the shiur, and he asked so many questions.

1:11:18 Speaker 2 Who was he friends with? Saul Levi?

1:11:20 Speaker 3 Saul Levi, Jay Berger.

1:11:22 Speaker 2 Ah, Jay Berger. All the old-timers.

1:11:25 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:11:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, so that, the, the-

1:11:27 Speaker 3 Michal Kalish

1:11:27 Speaker 2 ... uh, I don't remember him, so, okay.

1:11:32 Speaker 3 Yeah. So there was a, a young group of young men and women-

1:11:36 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:37 Speaker 3 ... that would come to a shiur, and he would ask such aggressive questions at the shiur that the people did not want, you know, didn't wanna deal with this anymore, and they said they're gonna stop coming to the shiur.

1:11:47 Speaker 2 Right. They're also Americans, and he's Israeli, so.

1:11:49 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:11:50 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:11:50 Speaker 3 Right. But in the end of the day, he became, uh, full-fledged. Today he's a Yid with a board, and he's-

1:12:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah

1:12:00 Speaker 3 ... he lives in Bnei Brak, and so it's, it's not a question of my way or the highway.

1:12:07 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:12:09 Speaker 3 And, uh, you know, I, I think he considers himself very, very much close to Lubavitch.

1:12:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:14 Speaker 3 And he totally credits that. Uh, other day he calls me mismaan lesmaan and asks, and is, is

1:12:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:23 Speaker 3 But, uh, yeah, I, I, I, I very much think that Yiddishkeit is a, is a beaut- beautiful mix, a, a kaleidoscope of, of, of amazing minhagim and of many shades and many colors. And I think Chabad has something to offer to each and every one of them, but not necessarily at the price of them giving up and, and ch- necessarily changing their minhagim.

1:12:55 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So I, I, I know we- we're, we're dancing around chronologically here, but I, you know, I, I, I like to focus more on the narrative as opposed to a strict chronology. Um, let's, let's go back a little bit. You know, you, you, you know, you described your parents' different ways of approaching Yiddishkeit in America coming from, coming from Russia. You end up, for one reason or another, we don't have to necessarily go into the details, but you end up, for one reason or another, going to yeshiva in Telz.

1:13:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:29 Speaker 2 And this probably also plays a role in this whole... Most Lubavitchers don't get that kind of exposure.

1:13:35 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:35 Speaker 2 So talk a little bit about that. Uh, you don't have to talk about exactly why and how, but, but I mean, all your brothers ended up in Telz.

1:13:43 Speaker 3 Most of them.

1:13:43 Speaker 2 Most of them.

1:13:44 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:13:44 Speaker 2 At least for a few years, and they ended, all ended up coming back.

1:13:47 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:48 Speaker 2 So what was that like?

1:13:51 Speaker 3 Look, uh, initially we were extremely welcome there.

1:13:56 Speaker 2 In Telz.

1:13:56 Speaker 3 And-

1:13:57 Speaker 2 Which Telz was it? Cleveland?

1:13:58 Speaker 3 It was in Chicago.

1:13:58 Speaker 2 In Chicago. There's two. There's two, right?

1:14:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, and the reason wh- the reason it was Telz Chicago is because, uh, the Rosh Yeshiva of Telz Chicago was a son of one of, of one of the senior „Rabbanim" in Detroit.

1:14:10 Speaker 2 Ah.

1:14:11 Speaker 3 So he knew, he knew our family.

1:14:13 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:14:14 Speaker 3 And, uh, he was very close to our family. And, uh, for a number of reasons which we won't go into right now, it was not all that practical for my parents to send children to, to New York.

1:14:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:26 Speaker 3 It was far away in those times, and, and financial and other considerations, and so on.

1:14:32 Speaker 2 Right. And we're talking about yeshivot talmidim, right?

1:14:35 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:14:35 Speaker 2 High school.

1:14:36 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:14:36 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:37 Speaker 3 And, uh, and, you know, we, we w- there we were, we were close to home.

1:14:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:44 Speaker 3 And of course, they tried to pump us that we would become

1:14:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:55 Speaker 3 And so on and so forth. But, uh, all in all, it was mostly a positive k- uh, experience.

1:15:03 Speaker 2 But, but, but describe, what, what was that like growing up as a Lubavitcher boy surrounded by non-Lubavitchers?

1:15:11 Speaker 3 Again, you're still talking about out of town.

1:15:13 Speaker 2 No, I'm not talking about, like, the snagssnags and the fighting. I'm just-- I'm, I'm more thinking about, like, um, y- you know, you, you feel out of place if-

1:15:25 Speaker 3 No. We did not, did not feel out of place at all.

1:15:28 Speaker 2 So it's just we're sitting here learning Torah, that's it?

1:15:30 Speaker 3 Yeah. We're, we're here to, we're here to learn Torah, and, uh, in, in Chicago I remember we used to go to a few-

1:15:37 Speaker 2 So you wore your black, you wore your black hat. I mean, ev- did everyone wear a black hat in those days?

1:15:42 Speaker 3 Well, most of the people did.

1:15:43 Speaker 2 The Litvish also wore black hats.

1:15:44 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, you know, we would go to, uh, to the Kasufsky's house in Chicago.

1:15:51 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:51 Speaker 3 And we would join the hookups.

1:15:54 Speaker 2 To the Farbrengens.

1:15:55 Speaker 3 Yeah. And that's when we would have to sometimes deal with some issues at the school because we would be up till 2:00, 3:00 in the morning listening to the Rebbe's Farbrengen.

1:16:03 Speaker 2 So a bit of Torah.

1:16:04 Speaker 3 So a bit of Torah, and then, and if we came a little bit late to Shacharis in the m- in the morning, it was a little bit of an issue to deal with.

1:16:14 Speaker 2 I mean, they knew you were Lubavitchers though, right?

1:16:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:16 Speaker 2 And they were okay with that?

1:16:17 Speaker 3 And they were absolutely okay with it.

1:16:19 Speaker 2 Hmm. Hmm. Did-- Was there, was there a... Looking back, was there a certain... Maybe in a way the more interesting thing to me is when you c- when you leave Tels, you're there for what, three years?

1:16:35 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:36 Speaker 2 And you end up going, you know, going to where you probably always expected to go, which was to, uh-

1:16:41 Speaker 3 I went to Morrison.

1:16:42 Speaker 2 Right. But to Lubavitch Yeshivas. Was it, was there something that you understood about that world that your friends did not understand?

1:16:52 Speaker 3 Oh, 100%.

1:16:53 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:16:53 Speaker 3 But it's not only from going there.

1:16:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:56 Speaker 3 It was from growing up in Detroit-

1:16:57 Speaker 2 Right

1:16:58 Speaker 3 ... and very much being part of the community.

1:17:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:02 Speaker 3 And not, uh, you know, and not establishing ourselves that we are Chabad-

1:17:08 Speaker 2 Right

1:17:08 Speaker 3 ... and this is our way, and our way is the right way. Right?

1:17:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:14 Speaker 3 If you, if you wanna, if you wanna, if you wanna, you, if you wanna be respected, earn that, earn that credit.

1:17:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:20 Speaker 3 Earn, earn that respect.

1:17:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:22 Speaker 3 And, uh, and I, and I think, uh, I think a lot of people became very miskar of the Chabad, both be- my, my father's way of, you know, of bringing Diskinov he would make a Halukos Hashas and so on, and his Mesirus Nefesh on whole of Yisroel, and his Mesirus going to the mikvah, and his Mesirus Nefesh d- davening, mamash at b'mitzvot halev. People used to come by our house on Shabbos afternoon and listen from outside to my father davening.

1:17:55 Speaker 2 He would come back home and daven?

1:17:56 Speaker 3 He would come home, back home and daven. He would be by Boruch Shomer, ha- having got- gotten up at, having waking, waking up at six o'clock in the morning and going to the mikvah and saying Karbanos and, and Psukim DeZimra. He would come home having heard Kriyas, uh, Kriyas HaTorah and, uh, a- and, and, uh, a- and maybe get up to Boruch Shomer. He would come home, then he would have one of us make Kiddush for my, for my mother and, and, and the girls in the family, and, uh, he would daven, and he would sit down and daven from Boruch Shomer till after Musaf. It would take him an hour and a half to two hours.

1:18:34 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:18:35 Speaker 3 And his tallit would be drenched on a cold winter day.

1:18:40 Speaker 2 Literally?

1:18:41 Speaker 3 Literally. This is, this is not a figment of my imagination.

1:18:44 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:18:45 Speaker 3 He would daven and pour his heart out.

1:18:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:18:49 Speaker 3 And people would hear. You would... There would be people standing on the... 'Cause we lived on a corner street. People would be standing in front of our house and on the side of our house and listening to Rav Meir offson davening.

1:19:01 Speaker 2 So he, he just led by example?

1:19:03 Speaker 3 Yeah, but he, yeah, and, and, you know, and he, and he didn't, he didn't... You know, of course, he was very outspoken about the Rebbe and so on, but he was-

1:19:13 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:13 Speaker 3 ... primarily, it w- it was, it, it was, he was respected for who he was-

1:19:20 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:20 Speaker 3 ... and for being as genuine as he was.

1:19:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:23 Speaker 3 While my mother was respected for her, for her absolute commitment to helping Yidden in the way that they needed help the most.

1:19:37 Speaker 2 So, so you're de-

1:19:37 Speaker 3 Being focused on their needs.

1:19:39 Speaker 2 So you're de-- So, so what you're, what you're describing to me is that-

1:19:43 Speaker 3 So my father was more focused on what, what he thought Yidden should want, and my mother was more focused on what do they need today.

1:19:50 Speaker 2 I understand. No, but I'm saying the general theme that you're giving me here is that because your parents ended up in Detroit and not in, you know, even a smaller Lubavitch community like Montreal or I don't know what else was there, but I mean, obviously Karnitz, but most people didn't end up in Karnitz. Uh, you know, in Europe or whatever it was, they were literally one of a few Lubavitchers in Detroit, right? Um-

1:20:16 Speaker 3 At one point, I think the only ones.

1:20:17 Speaker 2 Oh, the only ones. So there was a sense, and this is something that I discuss on the podcast, one of my favorite conversations with, with, with, uh, Rabbi, um, Rabbi Seligson about his father, Dr. Seligson.

1:20:30 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:31 Speaker 2 About... 'Cause his father grew up also as in the only Lubavitch family in the entire town of Krakow, I think it was. Right? One of the big, one of the big cities of Poland-

1:20:42 Speaker 3 Poland

1:20:42 Speaker 2 ... one of the big Jewish communities of Poland, they were the only Lubavitch family, and that does change your, your viewpoint, right? Like you, you, you cannot operate from a... You're not operating from a, from a strength in numbers place, right? You, you, you are in the minority. You are firmly in the minority, and- The, so in political terms, you're like, "Okay, so how do I strategize to, to somehow leverage..." That's not the point here. The point here is you really have to ask yourself, "If I'm in the minority, how do I, how do I reconcile my own identity and my own heritage with the fact that everyone around me is not like me?" I ha- it, it asks a set of questions that isn't asked when everyone around you looks exactly like you.

1:21:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:21:33 Speaker 2 Right? And you have to-

1:21:35 Speaker 3 Sure, it makes you more aware of your, of your, of yourself and-

1:21:38 Speaker 2 Right. And also asks you if, if the reason, you know, the reason that you are who you are is not simply answered because everyone around me is like this too. There's a different reason. There has to be a different reason, right? And it's interesting the way you're describing it to me that, you know, the way your parents were in Detroit, and then being in Gateshead, and then obviously that's how, um, you know, I, I understood the way you operated the Chabad House in Hong Kong. Um, this is very interesting. Um, you know, I... In a way, yeah, maybe some people see it differently, but they also have different upbringing, so there are different ways of approaching it, right? Based on where you come from, you see things differently. It's not even necessarily a debate of who's right and who's wrong, it's just that there are different approaches, right? And they, it, it depends on, on, on how you, on, on where you're coming from, and how, is how you're going to see it, right? Um, so, so you, you're, you're you grew up in Detroit, you go to Gateshead then to Marston, um, then you-

1:22:57 Speaker 3 Not to Gateshead to-

1:22:58 Speaker 2 Not Gateshead. Um, to Tels, Tels, Tels Chicago, then Marston through Melach.

1:23:05 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:07 Speaker 2 He, so he was your first, your first official Mashpia?

1:23:11 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. And that was an amazing experience.

1:23:14 Speaker 2 And you spent how long with him?

1:23:16 Speaker 3 Unfortunately, on the, only a year because I w- I was, uh, sent to Shlifas in Venezuela. Once upon a country.

1:23:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. S- so, so Melach was pro... I mean-

1:23:31 Speaker 3 That said, there still are Shluchem there, and there still is a small community, but it's-

1:23:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:23:34 Speaker 3 ... it's a frac... It's a-

1:23:35 Speaker 2 Not what, you know-

1:23:36 Speaker 3 It's a shadow of what it was.

1:23:37 Speaker 2 Right. Right. On every level.

1:23:39 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:40 Speaker 2 So obviously, I know, I know your story already, but S- so Melach ends up being your only Mashpia really, like in term- like in an official capacity.

1:23:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. So what was he like? And what was it like to meet someone like that aft- like, again, I think it's interesting, you know, you're, you're c- you're this, you're this bachur who's coming from a world that most of your friends aren't aware of. You know, how did you appreciate this Melach after-

1:24:07 Speaker 3 Well, I, I, I, I appreciated it be- because, uh, you know, th- while they don't have Chassidis in the Litvish yeshiva, they do have Mussar and Hashkafa.

1:24:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:19 Speaker 3 And when you meet someone like Melach, who is an absolute bur su sheinam haveti- sheinam havetipa.

1:24:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:24:28 Speaker 3 And, uh, just a giant of, of both in Nigla and Chassidis.

1:24:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:34 Speaker 3 And a person with such clarity. It w- it w- it was like, like, like wow.

1:24:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:24:41 Speaker 3 It was like just standing there like you, you've, you, you felt like you were standing next to a mountain. When you heard one farbrengen from him or, or even one Chassidis-

1:24:52 Speaker 2 Right

1:24:53 Speaker 3 ... and you, you, you could see that, like, uh, Reuven ben, Menachem ben Dami was just like a different world.

1:25:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:01 Speaker 3 It's not even in the same league.

1:25:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:04 Speaker 3 So I had a tremendous, uh, respect for Melach.

1:25:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:09 Speaker 3 And I stayed in touch with him for a number of years, and unfortunately, be- being so far wasn't so easy, but whenever I would see him, he would, uh, give me siachas in a very warm way. Even though he was considered by many people as being a little bit aloof, I didn't find him that way at all.

1:25:27 Speaker 2 You didn't find him aloof?

1:25:29 Speaker 3 No. He genuinely asked how we're doing, and how we're managing, and how things are going. And, uh, I, I f- I found him to be a very incredible person.

1:25:44 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:25:48 Speaker 3 I mean, clearly his mind was also be mus- be muscolis. He was, he was, he was a tremendous muskol, but that didn't detract from his, uh, his relationship with the individual at all. I, I didn't find it that way at all.

1:26:04 Speaker 2 So l- let me backtrack o- one second to when you were in Tels. So when you were in Tels, were you coming at all f- for, to farbrengen? To, to, you come into seventh s- you came for Tisha to seventh seven?

1:26:14 Speaker 3 I would come every Tisha for seventh to seventh seven day.

1:26:17 Speaker 2 The whole entire Tisha.

1:26:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:18 Speaker 2 Your father came also?

1:26:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, we were all from yeshiva.

1:26:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:22 Speaker 3 And my father had Mesirut Nefesh in those days to take all the boys for

1:26:28 Speaker 2 Just for

1:26:30 Speaker 3 Yeah. Every single year.

1:26:31 Speaker 2 So not the whole Tisha?

1:26:32 Speaker 3 Not the whole Tisha, no.

1:26:34 Speaker 2 So you all came from yeshiva for

1:26:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:42 Speaker 2 Where did you stay?

1:26:43 Speaker 3 We used to stay by Reuven Chaim Roytblat. We used to stay by the Hetricks. We used to stay by, by the Gansburgs on Eastern Parkway.

1:26:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:26:52 Speaker 3 Then eventually, some of my sisters, uh-

1:26:55 Speaker 2 Got married

1:26:55 Speaker 3 ... got married, so we started staying by them all.

1:26:58 Speaker 2 And, and you, um, you, you... Would you come in at other times of the year also?

1:27:07 Speaker 3 Generally not, no

1:27:09 Speaker 2 What was it like to, when you, when, when-- what was it like to come into 770 from, um, from, you're coming from a Telzer Yeshiva.

1:27:19 Speaker 3 Yeah, but we were raised Chabad and, and-

1:27:21 Speaker 2 No, I know. I know, but, but you don't know anybody else, right? Like, you're, you're not-

1:27:25 Speaker 3 Yeah, so, so till today I struggle with that because, uh, a lot of people come over to me and they know who I am for one reason or another, and I am kind of like, like, "I might know you, but I can't, I can't put a face to a name necessarily."

1:27:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:44 Speaker 3 'Cause I, I didn't have a kita here.

1:27:47 Speaker 2 You're an outsider.

1:27:48 Speaker 3 So I was kind, kind of a, kind of an outsider.

1:27:51 Speaker 2 Uh, who did you hang out with when you came f-first to Chabad? Just your brothers?

1:27:56 Speaker 3 Yeah, and, and, and, and, and our hosts. We st-we also stayed there one year, one or a couple of years, Machne Bnei HaTalmidim.

1:28:04 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:04 Speaker 3 I don't know how, what my parents' relationship with them was, but-

1:28:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:28:07 Speaker 3 ... we stayed there. So, and BeChaval it was, uh, you know, it, it was a, to me it was very, very warm memories from coming to the Rebbe for, for 770 was-

1:28:22 Speaker 2 No, I'm sure. But I-

1:28:23 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:28:23 Speaker 2 ... I'm asking more like a, on a ground level, on a ground-

1:28:27 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. So I, I know very few people. Like, uh, the other day I was at a, at a, at a Simcha.

1:28:37 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:37 Speaker 3 And, uh, out of a crowd of a couple hundred people, maybe I could name 10 or 20 of them.

1:28:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:45 Speaker 3 Because-

1:28:47 Speaker 2 I mean, effectively, you were only in the Lubavitch Yeshiva system for one year.

1:28:52 Speaker 3 Right.

1:28:53 Speaker 2 And you were in 770 at all after Shlichus in Venezuela?

1:28:56 Speaker 3 After, after, after Shlichus in, in Venezuela, which extended from two years to three years, and then the standard was two years.

1:29:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:06 Speaker 3 I stayed for three years. I came back to 770, and I was very close with the Rosh Yeshiva, olive ashalom, Rav Piekarsky.

1:29:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:13 Speaker 3 And he, uh, worked out a Seder Limud with, uh, for my, for, for Machabrus and myself. And then, um, the famous story of my life that, uh, Rabbi Grunblatt, zal zeyn gezunt, came to me and asked me to be a teacher in the Mesivta.

1:29:31 Speaker 2 Right. In Buenos Aires.

1:29:33 Speaker 3 In, in Buenos Aires, because I spoke Spanish, speak Spanish. And, um, I told him that I just came back from three years of Shlichus, and I had no intention of going anywheres.

1:29:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:45 Speaker 3 So he says, "Oh, why don't you write to the Rebbe?" And I felt, I said, "Well, why, why should you write to the Rebbe? There's, to me, there's no, there's no question to ask."

1:29:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:53 Speaker 3 So he said, "So, so how about just writing to the Rebbe that, that you were requested to come and you have no-"

1:29:59 Speaker 2 It's not nice what he did, but-

1:30:01 Speaker 3 Uh-huh

1:30:01 Speaker 2 I, I, I love Rabbi Grunblatt, but not nice what he did.

1:30:04 Speaker 3 I, I love him as well.

1:30:05 Speaker 2 There's no way he would have done that if, if he was in your shoes, he would not have gone. Anyway.

1:30:10 Speaker 3 Anyway, so he sa- so, so it's a, it's a whole interesting story. I don't have to go into all the details. We got a very puzzling answer from the Rebbe in the beginning, and I insisted that he write to the Rebbe and explain what's going on in Buenos Aires.

1:30:27 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:27 Speaker 3 And, um, and eventually I went there, and, uh, that opened up a very interesting chapter in my life. Firstly, I, I had a very nice kit of, of, of, of Talmidim, and I was very, we gave it to them for a year. But in the evenings and sometimes in the mornings, a lot of Baalei Teshuva would come to Chabad House then, which was on, on, on Esquelaga.

1:30:54 Speaker 2 Why are you shaking your leg?

1:30:57 Speaker 3 Was I? I didn't-

1:30:58 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

1:31:00 Speaker 3 So, um, so, uh, I saw that these people were struggling. They were opening up a siddur, and they were davening in Spanish. And I looked at the siddur, it looked like a very strange siddur to me. I was not familiar with that siddur.

1:31:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:19 Speaker 3 So I spoke to Rabbi Grunblatt, and I said, "What's the siddur that they're using?" He's saying, "They're using a siddur that was written by a Reform rabbi."

1:31:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:31:29 Speaker 3 "It's the only siddur available."

1:31:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

1:31:32 Speaker 3 I said, "So we have to make a siddur that's, uh, appropriate for them." He says, "But how can I do that now? We're struggling to pay the Melamed, and we're struggling to keep just the ..." "And you're bring- you're bringing new, new projects." So at that time, I took on a crazy commitment that I would raise the money for the siddur in Spanish.

1:31:53 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:31:54 Speaker 3 And together with his brother, Rav Noson Grunblatt, we gave out the siddur, and that started a whole new... That struck a, a fire in inside me about, uh, davening. I suppose, I suppose I yarched that from my father a little bit.

1:32:11 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:32:12 Speaker 3 And, uh, and ever since then, I've had a very strong interest in, in, in, in making davening meaningful and, and accessible and relatable to, to, to people.

1:32:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:32:27 Speaker 3 So I have a beautiful story that I'd like to share-

1:32:31 Speaker 2 Sure

1:32:31 Speaker 3 ... about, about the siddur. It was a jewelry fair in Hong Kong, and, uh, it was Friday night, and we had many guests at Chabad House, as we always do, uh, especially at a fair. And one Yid from, uh, from Buenos Aires, and he told me I should s- tell the story and I should use his name. His name is Daniel Bilofsky. Comes over to me and he says to me, "Rabbi, I just came here to say thank you to you." I said, "Thank you for what?" And he opens the siddur, which has my name in it as one of the co-authors of the, uh, of, of this project. Together with Nelson Grunblatt and, uh, and a cousin of theirs who did the r- original translation from English. We edited it back from the Lashon Hakodesh. And, uh, and, eh, he said, uh, "This has changed my life. The siddur's with me 24/7. The only place it doesn't go with me is when I take a shower or I use the washroom."

1:33:34 Speaker 2 The Span- the Spanish siddur.

1:33:35 Speaker 3 The, the, the Spanish siddur. And he knew it by heart already, he says, "But I like to read it inside in, in Spanish." And he would say the whole daven, he knew the whole siddur by heart in Spanish.

1:33:45 Speaker 2 In Spanish.

1:33:46 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I said, "Listen, that's, uh... I feel it's an, it's an honor, uh, to, to be of service and, um, thank you for the very, very positive feedback." A little while later, after the first course, he comes over to me and he says, "I'm saying goodbye tonight because, uh, I'm very tired, I'm very jet lagged, and, uh, and, and, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna make it tomorrow morning." And he has a siddur under his arm. In those days, there was no Arab in Hong Kong. Now there is. So I said, "Where are you taking that siddur?" He says, "I'm taking it with me to my hotel." I said, "But you know you're not supposed to carry on Shabbos." He says, "Yeah, I'm not a full-blown shomer yet. I s- I still do certain things, but I daven three times a day, and I say Modeh Ani from the siddur, and I say Al Mi Pilpul from the siddur, and I say Shema Yisrael at night and in the morning from the siddur. Everything from the siddur. Everything is, uh, is read, read out of the siddur." So I said, "But maybe, uh, you should keep it here because, uh, you're davening to Hashem, and the same God says that you're not supposed to carry on Shabbos." He says, "I need five minutes to think about this."

1:34:56 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:34:57 Speaker 3 He goes over to a corner, and he thinks about it, comes back to me and he says, "I decided I'm taking the siddur, and Hashem will understand me because He... Imagine if you asked me to leave my left leg or my left arm here. Would you s- would you ask me to do a thing like that? No, that's part of who I am. So just like my legs can't go to the hotel, my arms go with me."

1:35:19 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:35:19 Speaker 3 "Or even the jacket that I'm wearing. You're gonna tell me to leave my jacket? Uh, it's my clothing. It's... The, the siddur to me is more than clothing." So I said, "I, uh, fully understand you, and I'm not here to tell you what to do, but I can just tell you that since you mentioned to me that you're grateful to me for being involved in the siddur and for making it available, you know, I, I did this with the intention of people getting closer to Torah and mitzvahs, and one of the things of Torah and mitzvahs is that we don't carry on Shabbos."

1:35:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:35:50 Speaker 3 He says, "I need another five minutes to think about it." Literally. He comes back to me after five minutes, and I see he's caressing the siddur. He's, like, going like this and caressing the siddur and, and holding it fondly. And he comes and he gives it to me, and he says to me in Spanish, "" Which means I leave it in good hands. And my hand was here on the up, top of the siddur, holding the siddur, and he burst out crying. And I still feel ad hayom, those hot tears-

1:36:22 Speaker 2 Really?

1:36:23 Speaker 3 -falling on the back of my hand. And I thought to myself, "Ribono shel olam, where is he when it comes to avodas Hashem?"

1:36:32 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:32 Speaker 3 "And where am I?" I said, "This guy is way ahead of me. He's like in a different, in a different, in a different world altogether."

1:36:41 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:42 Speaker 3 If I'm in Aziah, he's at least in Bereah.

1:36:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:44 Speaker 3 Or who knows where he is. And, uh, this has inspired me to take this further, and, uh, as a result of that, uh, I'm very involved now with, uh, as, as you know, and as you've, you've collaborated in this project, a siddur in English to make it much more relatable-

1:37:03 Speaker 2 Right

1:37:03 Speaker 3 ... and understandable and enjoyable to daven because, uh, there's noth- there's, there's no mitzvah that we call on people, and we call on ourselves and on other people to do as often as davening.

1:37:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:37:16 Speaker 3 And people find davening a struggle.

1:37:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

1:37:21 Speaker 3 Because sometimes it, it sounds foreign or it sounds a- antiquated and, and-

1:37:28 Speaker 2 Or, or sometimes in a way even worse is it doesn't sound like anything at all if you just read the Hebrew, even if you know the translation. I, I think I had this discussion with someone else on a different podcast, but, you know, you take the typical Yeshivah bachur and have him, have him, um, have him talk, have him, uh, have him, uh, read the English translation of davening. I think, I think he would, he would go crazy. Like, the, it's... It, it's, it's... Hebrew kind of gives you, like, a buffer to, to like, "Okay, this is..." You're saying it like Tehillim, you know what I mean?

1:38:16 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:38:16 Speaker 2 Like, it's... Even if I know what it means, it's okay, it's not my-

1:38:18 Speaker 3 These are the words that David HaMelech davened in.

1:38:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. It's not my words, it's his words. Whatever. Okay, it's a nice idea. But when you start saying it in your own language, it's like, "Wait a second." You know, uh, I, uh, you know, praise, you know, uh, a- any passuk pretty much. Uh, every „bechol yom echalka“, every single day I will bless you, and I will sing your name forever and ever. Who talks like that, right?

1:38:50 Speaker 3 Right.

1:38:50 Speaker 2 What, what does that even mean? And, and, and do I really think that for a second? Do I really, uh, you know... That sounds a little bit kooky, right? A- and so you have to start, you have to start really, uh, really coming to terms with what you're saying.

1:39:06 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:39:06 Speaker 2 And, and, and I, and I think that's one of the, you know, one of the reasons to, one of the reasons to, to, to, to, to, to, to s- s- so I think on, I think on that podcast, I, I suggested that it would, wouldn't be a bad idea for, for Yeshivahs to daven in English. Uh, it's not gonna happen, but I think it would force, like, a reckoning. Like, people would get more honest with what they're, with what they're saying and what they're working with, right? The whole idea, if you think about it, like, y- you know, you open up a Meimar and Torah, Likutei Torah, and very often the Meimar is a beer on Pirkei Avos. It's, you know, on Ahavat, and, and what Sukat Hazimar is, and what this Passuk in Asher means, and so on. And what is that? It's, it's Alter trying to explain what's the idea behind this really over the, in, in some sense, over the top Passuk. Like, what's it saying? „Machosko machosko elokon.“ What does that, you know, what does that mean? It, it's a whole thing about Seidrash Shalsheles. It means a lot, turns out, right? Correct. Right? I mean, that's the idea of chassidus, is to try to, uh, one of the ideas of chassidus is to try to kind of come to terms with these grandiose, sweeping statements and understand the enormity of, of what they are, right? I mean, on one hand, Pirkei Avos, the simpli- the simplicity, "Ani mefsapal daza, adaza

1:40:37 Speaker 2 atinik," is the, the lashon, I think, right? Right. But you also, uh, th- these words are not simple words at all, and they carry enormity. And, you know, it, it, there's this kind of disconnect where people... And it's not just davening. Davening is, like, the gateway to this disconnect because then you, it, it just feeds, it just keeps on going, where, where, you know, people talk in chassidisha language and just derogation, everything. It, once you allow for... I mean, the same, I mean, lehavdil, lehavdil elef alafim, right? What's the whole idea of nivul peh, right? What's the problem with nivul peh? Once you allow your mouth to speak a certain way, in a negative way in that case, you have now, you have now schlepped yourself to a certain... Y- you know, you have, you have, you have allowed yourself to be, to be schlepped into a different context, which is a very negative, debasing, coarse context. Right. Right? Um, I'm not immune from it personally. You know, I just, I'm not, uh, I'm not trying to make believe like I stand higher than that, but that is a problem with it. The same thing can be said lehavdil the other way, where you get carried, you get schlepped into a holy context that you have no footing in, and you just end up, you know, groping in, groping in the heavens, and, and, and there's this, there's a lashon for it that's just, that's eluding me now. But, like, people that are, you know,

1:42:12 Speaker 2 tinkering, tinkering up high and playing games, you know, it's, it's not healthy either. Right. In Yiddish, there's an expression, "Krichn af glaykhe vent." Right. Right. Maybe that's what I'm thinking about. But there, you know, there's... So, so, uh, you know, I th- I think there is, there would be some, like, I, I w- like, I, I think sometimes, imagine if in a Torah, for example, uh, you know, the Yes. Beis Midrash with 250 bochurim, baruch Hashem v'rar, to, you know, like a bochur would get up for mincha and say Asher in English, like the chazan, and then Chad Gadya in English. I think it would be pretty cool. I think, I think it would really force a reckoning for a lot of bochurim. Right. Right. And, uh, and some- Blessed are you, our, our, our, our, our God, the God of our fathers, God of, of Abraham, the God of Isaac, God of Jacob, et cetera, et cetera. It's like, wait a second, what, what are we saying here? Like, you know, this is the language we use when we're talking, you know... It, language is a very important thing, right? The words that we use- Yeah ... are a very important thing. And, and, and how we use words and, and, you know, what, what words can mean and, and how we can form words into a sentence, this is how, this is, this, this is a big part of how we think about the world. So yeah. Anyway. So when, when tefillah is

1:43:37 Speaker 2 not eff- is not accomplishing a kibbud- Right ... then you know that you, you have a problem. Right. And to do this mitzvah several times a day- Right ... uh, it's, it's actually alienating. And, and how, and how did I know how important it is? Another nice anecdotal story, a short story. I get a call from, uh, a shliach in Tokyo. Right. Rabbi Mendel Zlikovitz. And he says, "A friend of mine, David, is coming to Hong Kong. Look after him." Mm-hmm. So we became very good friends, and, uh, he asked me after a couple days if he can speak to me, and I saw that he was very agitated. And he says, "You know, Rabbi, I took it upon myself, I made a mechilta a year or two ago to daven three times a day, and I'm about to give it up because every time I daven, I actually get more frustrated 'cause I daven in English, and it just doesn't, doesn't, it's, it's not relatable." Right. So I said to him, I had just started working on the siddur at the time, and I had Shemoneh Esreh in a very rough word draft. Right. I said, "It hasn't even gone through a first edit, but if you can make your way through all those imperfections and just daven from that." He said, "Sure." Took the papers, came back about 45 minutes later. His face was red from tears. Really? He says, "Rabbi, you don't know what you did. I just davened for the first

1:45:08 Speaker 2 time in my life." Huh. So I, I, I, you know, people who know me know that I'm very involved in this, and, and, and that I'm working, uh- On an English translation ... on an English translation, and hopefully one day maybe circle back to Spanish as well. Uh-huh. But, uh, to me, it, it, it, you know, we, we know that, uh, that, uh, avodat bet manaze is, is in davening even over Torah. Right. And, uh, it's re- it's critical that people should actually look forward to davening because that's a vital organ of Yiddishkeit, and one that is, you know, that people are busier saying rather than actually experiencing. Mm-hmm. And it's, uh, it's, it's, it's unfortunate that, uh, that we don't You know, when we come to daven, we're, we're-- we find that we have so much to say that we're kind of feel rushed, and we go through it, and then feel even more unaccomplished. Right. So it's, uh- Right. In that, in that sense, it's, uh, that's, that, that's, that's been true s-since the beginning of time, it seems. You know, it didn't, uh... But, but at least when you get to it, it should, it should mean something. Yeah. But I, so I want to, I want to, I want to... We're not gonna cover the whole story of Chabad of Hong Kong, uh, here, but I, I don't wanna end without getting there somehow. So you, you, you, you, y-you, you, you were in San Diego for a little bit until

1:46:53 Speaker 2 you were pulled to Argentina, and then, um- And then I got very involved in the Seder project. Right. So I was working for Argentina, but based in America. Oh, so you came back to America to work on the Seder? To work on the Seder- Uh-huh ... and to raise funds for the Seder and so on- Right ... and so forth. In those days, it was very expensive. You didn't have it-- couldn't do it on your, on your, on your comp- on your laptop computer. It seems just for the typesetting was expensive. Typesetting was very, very expensive. Sure. Sure. And, uh, then, uh, a letter came to the Rebbe, which apparently went to many other organizations- Mm ... but the Rebbe was the only one who answered it. It was an SOS letter, "Save Our Shul, Save Our Synagogue." A mamish they put "Save Our Shul"? I believe so. Uh-huh. And the, the late David Buchsbaum was on the, was on, uh, was on the, on that committee. It was chaired by Mark Eilenberg, which name you might remember. I remember David Buchsbaum. Yeah, and, uh, David Darwish. I remember that name too. Yeah. For other reasons. Yeah, and, uh, there were several other people there, and they, uh, begged- I thought it was for Michael Green's son's bar mitzvah. No. That's not what it was? No. It just happened to be in that time. It happened to be. Yeah, it happened to be at that time. There were a few people that had-- that were

1:48:12 Speaker 2 traditional Jews on some level. Right. And they wanted, uh- Right ... some kind of rav. Right. And they w- and they wanted some, some genuine leadership. But they were open to Reform also, weren't they? Not the committee. The, the- Oh, the committee was not- ... religious committee wanted the Dafka Orthodox. So who, so who'd they reach out to? Chabad, OU? OU. I think they sent also to Conservative as well- Uh-huh ... but the OU, you know, to NCSY, to Young Israel. Yeah, those people weren't gonna send anybody to Hong Kong. They, they had no money then either. It was the- Mm-hmm ... the shul in Hong Kong had no money. Exactly. Exactly. But the Rebbe, the Rebbe- Uh-huh ... took a very strong interest. Had there been Merkesh l- Merkesh l'chol Hong Kong beforehand? Had there ever been? Uh, I think there were on one, on one or two occasions on the way to some place, either on the way to India or- Uh-huh ... or on the way maybe to Australia. Look, I just think it's important to, to describe how out there it was when we... You know, I mentioned at the beginning, uh, I mentioned at the beginning, but, like, you know, today the whole world geographically has shrunk, right? In the sense that you could get there in a few-- you could get there in 16 hours. But that's not even the bigger... You know, you, you, you could be connected on the phone. Uh, you know, you can, you can

1:49:27 Speaker 2 download Hong Kong on Google Maps and see everything what's going on. Right. But in those days, I mean, you're talking about, like, South... Argentina, as far as it is from New York, Argentina had a sizable Jewish community. It certainly- Very much so ... well, by the time you got there. Right. Like when Re- when Rabbi Berel Vengarten came, and Tsigron Velt, Rabbi Tsigron Velt was growing up, it was, it was a lot of Yidden there, but not s- not so many religious Jews. Right. But by the time, you know, by the time... But even when Ra- Rabbi Vengarten came, there were a few shuls of From Yidden that lived there. They were lesser abundant, but there were a few shuls, right? Right. Like, uh, and so on. Australia was very far away, but there was a community. Right. Hong Kong was literally- And they didn't have an indigenous community. Nothing. Argentina, the Jewish community was indigenous in the sense that they were Argentinians. They were Argentinian-born- For a few generations already, yeah. Right. Right. And, and they were, you're talking about in the hundreds of thousands, right? Right. Right. And they weren't going anywhere. They weren't. They, they were Argentinians. Right. Right. Right. Here, it was like coming... Like, what, what are you coming here for? Who are you coming for? It's-- Are you saying the Yidden weren't, they weren't, they... Not that they were natives for generations. They, they weren't-- They, they were all expats. Right. The only community that had an indigenous native

1:50:49 Speaker 2 community was Singapore. Yeah, I mean, they weren't-- Singapore itself was a relatively new country. I mean, people that were, that believ- that felt citizens local- Yeah, but I'm saying that their children- Uh ... they were, you know- Uh ... they were subject to the draft of the army and so on. I see, like citizens of their country. Citizens of their country. Here in Hong Kong, in those days, the average Jew came for three to four years. Well, not only that, they had been kicked out just before that during the war, w-weren't they? Didn't the Japanese kick them out? Or the Japanese kicked them out of China. No, they kicked them out of Hong Kong, didn't they? Well, the people j- I don't, I don't know if they were kicked out, but they definitely left, uh- The Sassoons and the Kadooris, they escaped, didn't they from Hong Kong? Right. Yeah. Right. So, so Hong Kong was, was like, like, you know, people who, who admired Chabad and who were, let's say, on business in Hong Kong, like wondered, like they used to joke with me, "What, what did you do wrong that the Rebbe sent you so far away?" They used to, they used to joke. Y-you thought it was funny? It doesn't, doesn't sound like much of a joke. I, I didn't think it was funny either, but they, they meant it in a lighthearted way. They didn't mean it in a way- Okay, but just to clarify, for those who don't know, you, you

1:51:56 Speaker 2 first went as a, as a Yeah ... I went- ... a bocher ... I went as a bocher with another bocher. Right. And that bocher did a shidduch. Oh, so originally you, you went for what? A couple months? I went for a month. The two of you went for a month? For a month. And after the month was already Rosh Chodesh Nisan. Mm-hmm. And they asked if we could stay for Pesach. Right. But, uh, the bachur that went with me, m- today he's a shliach in New Jersey, in Wayne, New Jersey. Right. Menachem Gurkow was, uh, committed to going back for a shidduch. Right. And, uh, he was not able to stay, so they asked me if I could stay alone. I said, uh, "If I could maybe ask a brother of mine to come or another friend to come." "No, there's no budget for it." Ah, that's, that's why you were alone. Yeah. They were, they refused to pay for another trip? Yeah. There w- it was a community that was completely broken. There was no- I mean, there's, there was plenty of money, but - Well, yeah, but, but the community itself- Fair, right ... d- didn't have, didn't have funds. Right. The people who were talking to you. Right. And, uh, and, and, and they said, they said, uh, "No, we want you to stay on your own." I said, "But I'm not going to make a Seder, uh, with a treif kitchen," 'cause the kitchen was treif at the time in

1:53:05 Speaker 2 the JCC. So after a very, very long discussion, firstly I called up, uh, the rabbi's office, the maskiras, and Rabbi Khadikov, uh- Well, one second. Why did you agree yourself to stay? I didn't. I said I would, I would, I said I would ask. Uh-huh. 'Cause I was sure that the answer would be no. Why'd you have to ask? You came for a month. You could go back home. I could have. Mm-hmm. You know, it's a kasha v'amasa. Probably I felt the pressure. Right. And, uh- You were there already. You saw what they needed ... and I was there and saw what they needed, and I saw that I, that they were willing to at least make the place kosher for Pesach. Right. And it was an interesting deal. There was, there... You could make it kosher for Pesach on condition that it goes back to treif the, the, the day after Pesach. That was the deal you made with them? That, that was the deal that they... That was the condition that they p- gave me. That you can kasher it for Pesach on the, on the condition that you treif it up the day after? Yeah. Not that I treif it up, but they- That, that you let them treif it up. Yeah, that I, that I don't get involved in the kitchen operation. Mm-hmm. And, I mean, there's, there's so much to tell about that story, but, uh, I don't think there's time for it. But bottom line is, is that, uh,

1:54:15 Speaker 2 is, is, is that, uh, we had a Seder, like a, with 150 people. First time kosher in who knows how many years. Where did you get the kosher food from? We... At that time, uh, there, there was, uh, one yid that was importing a little bit of, of, of meat, and Bernie Newmark, alav ha-shalom- Uh-huh ... was, uh, helping the community to get the, to get meat. So, uh, you know, may- maybe it was mostly fish. I c- I can't even remember the details of it, but I remember that we had a kosher, uh, kosher Pesach. And in my, in, in, in my youth- And matzahs? And matzahs you got from where? And matzahs were flown in from, I can't, uh, probably from America. Various businessmen brought matzahs. Hmm. Uh, and so most of the people ate probably machine matzahs that- Right ... that, that they would bring in there. But we had, of course, uh, hand matzahs for those who wanted it. And, uh, I was so excited about it that, that at the end of the Seder I announced that there would be a, a, uh, a minyan, a, a minyan on, on, on Shmini Atzeret Pesach. Hmm. No one, no one ever heard of that Yom Tov. Was a kind of Yom Tov, a week after Pesach. Pesach is over after the night- Right ... and the Seder is over. Right. So I came to the shul, and the shul was locked. Right. And, uh, I'm looking around, maybe I can go...

1:55:38 Speaker 2 Maybe one of the windows is open or one of the side doors is open, and it's locked. The gardener sees me and he says in his Chinese accent, he says, "Mr. Labby, what you looking for?" Right. I said, "I'm going to the shul. I wanna go into the synagogue." He says, "Ah, don't you know it's closed in honor of the Jewish holiday?" S- But one second. You skipped something. So you, you, you, uh, you, you wrote into the maskir- you wrote to the maskiras about, a- about staying. I, I called up Rabbi Khadikov. And? And he said he would get back to me. And? And the rabbi instructed me to stay. So Khadikov got back to you- Yeah ... and said the rabbi said to stay. Yeah. Indefinitely? No. To stay for, for Yom Tov. Uh-huh. Help to, help to make Yom Tov. Okay. That's 40 years ago. That's 40 years ago. No. And, uh, but then after Yom Tov was over, they asked me if I could come back for a bar mitzvah, another bar mitzvah. Oh, so you went back to America after Pesach? There was a family called Tucker. You came back to America after Pesach? I came back to America after Pesach. And they asked you to come back? They asked me to come back for, for a bar mitzvah around, around, uh, uh, dur- sometime during Sefirah, and I came back. And then they asked me to come back for Shavuot, and I said, uh, I could do it if

1:56:56 Speaker 2 they would let me, you know, make some kind of publicity of, uh, Seudas HaDiberos and, and invite c- and we would get kids to come to the, to, to the shul, and so on and so forth. And one of the people at the board banged on the table and he said, "Point of order. This is not a Chabad shul." I said, "Well, so, so what's the problem?" He said, "Uh, we don't have the minhag of inviting children to hear the Seudas HaDiberos." Ah. "And this is not a Chabad shul. I object." I said, "Okay. I didn't, uh... Thank you very much for crediting Chabad to encourage Jewish children to, uh, listen to the Seudas HaDiberos. What, what could be wrong with that?" Right. Anyway, bottom line is that, um, while there was a, a lot of antagonism to, uh, a, a religious person coming, uh, the, the religious committee pushed forward and, and asked me to come for a year. Right. To sign, to sign a contract for a year. And I was very reluctant because I'm a bachur, and what am I doing alone in a place like Hong Kong? Right. And that's a very, very lengthy story, but the upshot of it is, is that- For episode two ... is, is, is, that's for a- for another episode, yeah, to... But the bottom line is the rabbi gave a berakhah to, for me to stay there. And, uh, several months and la-later on around, uh, uh, around, uh, right after Hanukkah, I came

1:58:27 Speaker 2 back to America, and, uh, I met mommy. Right. Your mother. And, uh, and c- then I went back to Hong Kong again. Right. And came back several weeks later, and we got married. It went in between engagement and- Yeah. And, and, and the wedding, which- While- ... the whole engagement was a wh- all of seven weeks. Why did you have to go to Hong Kong in between? Oh, don't ask, 'cause people were complaining that if, if I wasn't there, that the, that the- The contract will lapse? The, the contract will lapse or the kitchen will, will, will, will lapse, and it won't be kosher, 'cause by then they, they allowed us to make the kitchen kosher full-time. Uh-huh. And, uh, and then, and then we got married, and three weeks after our wedding, we, we went to Hong Kong. Supposedly for, to finish up a contract. Supposedly to finish up a contract. Yeah, but deep down you knew it was gonna be for longer. No, no, no. Really, I thought it was... I, 'cause to me, to me I saw my future more with, uh, Latin America and so on. Latin America? Yeah. In Argentina? Yeah. Maybe Argentina, maybe others, uh, countries. Right. But I, I, uh, I understood the Latin mentality very well. Right. It's a very, ver-very good people down there. And very warm- Yes ... people and caring and- Yes ... and, you know, hearts as they can mention. And I, you know, to me, I, I didn't have a worry at

1:59:57 Speaker 2 all- Right ... about what, what, what I, what I, what, you know, what I could get involved in. So you th- so you thought Hong Kong was a, was to finish up and- Yeah. I thought, you know, just to help them get, get it, get on track and, uh... Someone else will pick up the slack? Yeah. Yeah. Huh. But he always had other things in mind. Hmm. Yeah. So that, that is a whole different story. Yeah. Huh. Trying to think how to wrap it up, if it needs to be wrapped up at all. Okay. S- so like we said at the beginning, it's, it's, it's, it's approaching 40 years. It's approaching 40 years. Uh, what is... What would you say, looking back at 40 years, um, I mean, try-trying to, to, to, to, trying to pitch the quest- question in a way that it doesn't lead to, uh, doesn't demand an hour, an hour answer. What, what, what would you say is your proudest accomplishment of, of the 40 years? How do you look b- how do you look back at the 40 years? How do you, how, how do you... I don't know. Is that a fair question to ask? Or is it too broad? No, it's, it's a, it's a big question to ask. Right. And, uh, you know, to, to say what, what, what is the p- the proudest accomplishment, I, I, I think there are a number of them, but, uh, some of them we discussed already t-this evening. Uh, and

2:01:44 Speaker 2 that is, is, is that it, it, it really became, uh, a, a, a model of, of, of Chabad interacting with the spectrum of, uh, the wide spectrum of Yiddishkeit in a, in a very, in a very meaningful way, and I hope that we made a, a contribution to that in a, in a, in a meaningful way. And, um, I would like to think as well that, uh, the, the idea, the, the vision of, of, of, of the Rebbe to go to Asia at that time before was what it is today. Right. Was j- was, is just inc- it was just inc-inc-incredible. Mm. And to be entrusted to be the pioneer shliach in that, uh, in that part of the world is, uh, is, is, is, uh, you know, I don't even know what the word in English would be, but is m- is, is more, more than an honor. And, um, you know, uh, there's, uh, c-clear-clearly today it's, uh, you know, Asia is a place where people come back, uh, very, very bolstered and, and, and strengthened in their, in their Yiddishkeit. Today, uh, e-even, even in the post-COVID world, there could be, uh, at, at, at Chabad houses throughout Asia on a Friday night could be several thousand people, many of them experiencing Shabbos, uh, for the first time. I remember one time we had in Hong Kong where we never, you know, we would, we didn't have ever 1,000 people for a Shabbos, but we had nice crowds, and we would go

2:03:25 Speaker 2 around the table and, uh, and somebody w- from, from Israel said, "I traveled now to New Zealand, and I traveled to Australia, and I traveled to some of the islands in the Pacific, and I'm on my way back to Israel." He says, "And I came to Chabad of Hong Kong, and I found something that I am importing to Israel, and that is genuine Avas Israel." Mm. He said, "Because we need it desperately over there." Yeah. So I think, uh, the, the fact that we always try to make people feel that they're special in their own way is, uh, you know, of course, that could happen anywheres, but, uh, I, you know, the, the mere fact that so many people converge on Hong Kong or converge on Asia is, you know, s- and we s- and I think we set, we set a, a beautiful... We have a beautiful s- uh, group of shluchim there that really- Right ... support one another. And, uh, and I'm very, very, very grateful for the opportunity to have been, uh, been part of that. Yeah. So while you're talking, I'm thinking, I, I was thinking about two things. One thing, one thing is, yes, there was something growing up. I'm not tr- you know, I'm not trying to, trying to, um, I'm not trying to sugarcoat or, you know, go over the top with it, but, but to me, especially looking back, and I, I don't say this to the exclusion of, of anyone else, but it- it's more

2:05:14 Speaker 2 to the exclusion of, of it, of, of, of it being discussed more or maybe in my own mind it was something I didn't pay attention to enough growing up. Um, you know, a lot of the people that came to the Chabad House in Hong Kong were frum Yidden. They were businessmen coming, you know, f-frum Yidden coming for business. There was no like, um, there was no incentive that, you know, you're going to Mekarev them and make them frum Yidden. They, they're frum already, and they're, you know, they're, they're going home after. A lot of them, some of them of course were, were well off and possible supporters and donors. A lot of them were not. Um, you know, I, I, I grew up seeing, seeing you, um, welcome them into the shul and welcome them in for a meal, um, equally, regardless of if they, uh, you know, needed... You know, if they offered an opportunity to, for, to, to Mekarev them or whether they offered an opportunity to s- to become supporters, they were welcomed equally. Um, and that's, you know, that's a true testament to, to Aves Israel. That's what it was about. That's what it was about. Um, that, that was something that, that was something that I grew up watching. Um, you know, maybe for some people it's not, it's not a surprise at all, but, uh, you know, I, I did not growing up, I'd never, ever heard of anybody in the shul being... From you, I never heard anybody

2:06:52 Speaker 2 being defined by if they had money or didn't have money, if they could support or not support. That was not a thing. That was not a thing. And, um, if I took it for granted when I was younger, I don't take it for granted today, and I think, I think that's, I think that's a very important thing to point out. But, um, you know, to, to wrap up the conversation 'cause I, I have a habit of trying to do that, but to me there's an interesting bookend here where, you know, you talk about your parents coming to the American Midwest as refugees, immigrants, and finding themselves as from the handful of frum Yidden, uh, fending, you know, together with the cobbled together motley crew of other frum Yidden for Yiddishkeit in Detroit, and the only Lubavitchers for a time fi-fighting for their kids' Jewish chinuch at the time. You know, that forces, that forced them and that forced you when you grew up to ask a series of questions about who you were. But it also offers... You know, that's the pressure of it, but it also offers an opportunity to, to, to discover something that otherwise wouldn't be discovered, that you would take for granted if you just had everyone around you looking like you. In many ways, if you try to define what Asia is and like in, in a, in a, in a, in a, on a conceptual level, obviously geographically Asia is where it is, but what does Asia mean for

2:08:26 Speaker 2 the Jewish people in the past 40 years? What does Asia signify? Asia's a place that people come for, mostly for business opportunity. Of course, there's a segment that comes for, Israelis that come for Tiyul, for, you know, uh, after, you know, for, for tourism.

2:08:44 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.