Ep. 49 // “Shlichus Love Story” w/ Rabbi Nissen Goldman

00:00 Speaker 1 I'm, I'm up one night under the stars, it's 2:00 in the morning, and I have this epiphany of, like, this home where we are, and there's, like, students coming in and out, and there's a Shabbos table, and I'm, like, giving Dvar Torah, and there's, like, this shul swing outside in the garden, and kids are meeting each other, and basically a Chabad house. But for the first time, this story of having a Chabad house isn't my mother's story trying to hound me to do Chabad on Campus. It's my idea.

00:32 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We are here with Rabbi-

00:55 Speaker 1 That's nice.

00:56 Speaker 2 Is it good?

00:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

00:58 Speaker 2 We are here with Rabbi, Rabbi?

01:01 Speaker 1 Are we live?

01:02 Speaker 2 Yes, we are. Rabbi?

01:05 Speaker 1 Rabbi.

01:05 Speaker 2 Rabbi Nissen Goldman.

01:07 Speaker 1 We'll get to that later.

01:08 Speaker 2 Rabbi Nissen Goldman. Yes. I'm not a rabbi, by the way.

01:12 Speaker 1 Okay.

01:13 Speaker 2 Not, uh, I never got semikhah, but anyway. Yeah, so-

01:18 Speaker 1 Ament. Uh, no, it's interesting you asked, you asked me that because that's, like, that's part of the whole-

01:23 Speaker 2 That's part of the story, of course.

01:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:25 Speaker 2 So we are here with Rabbi Nissen Goldman from Cape Town. He serves as a shliach at the University of Cape Town. Is that what it's called?

01:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:35 Speaker 2 University of Cape Town, and he's here for the Kinus, which is not, um, expected, right? You don't come here-

01:45 Speaker 1 My first one.

01:45 Speaker 2 Your first Kinus. I'm catching you at your first Kinus.

01:48 Speaker 1 Mm.

01:49 Speaker 2 And see what happens-

01:50 Speaker 1 My first, like, the, the real, you know, the main one.

01:54 Speaker 2 See?

01:55 Speaker 1 I usually come to the Chabad on Campus ones.

01:56 Speaker 2 So just letting you know, it isn't normal that at a Kinus you do a podcast this time. Maybe we'll do it next time. I'm just saying it's not, you know.

02:04 Speaker 1 Normal for you.

02:05 Speaker 2 Also not, um, I did one last year. Anyway, um, so I think, I th-

02:15 Speaker 1 Okay, talk to me

02:15 Speaker 2 ... I th- yeah, I think we've, I think-

02:16 Speaker 1 What did you?

02:17 Speaker 2 I think we've, um, I think I have, for whatever reason, I think we, we met each other on Facebook a few years ago, some project I did. I think you reached out to me or maybe you knew one of my friends. Anyway, I, I've, I've come across you online for a few years.

02:30 Speaker 1 I like your videos. I like your work.

02:32 Speaker 2 Thank you. Appreciate it. So I've known you for a few years, like, online.

02:35 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

02:36 Speaker 2 And somehow I also got your WhatsApp number maybe from that too. And then recently I heard, uh, the podcast, your wife's podcast-

02:49 Speaker 1 Mm

02:49 Speaker 2 ... on actually the, the podcast by Tanya Lazaroff.

02:53 Speaker 1 Human and Holy.

02:54 Speaker 2 Human and Holy. She's also my cousin.

02:56 Speaker 1 Oh.

02:56 Speaker 2 Yes. I, I don't know-

02:58 Speaker 1 The genes

02:58 Speaker 2 ... I actually don't know her. Uh, I never met her, but she is my cousin.

03:01 Speaker 1 You guys should do a podcast.

03:03 Speaker 2 Maybe. Maybe. But anyway, I, I heard, I, I heard your wife's story on her podcast, and I don't want to, I don't want to recap it. We'll let you do that. But-

03:13 Speaker 1 You can put it in the link.

03:15 Speaker 2 Maybe. Maybe. But, um, so I, I heard the story about how the two of you met, and I thought this is, like, the most Derushvi love story I've ever heard in my life.

03:29 Speaker 1 Why?

03:30 Speaker 2 That's what I thought. That's what I thought. I don't wanna say why 'cause then it'll be, then there'll be, uh, spoilers after you, after you tell the story, uh.

03:39 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

03:41 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying I, I, I heard it, and there was something so uniquely contemporary, um, and, and like something that made, something that made so little sense and made so much sense at the same time. And, uh, and, and I thought... Also, if we're gonna be f- if we're gonna be frank for a second, our, uh, that, the v- the very idea of a story about marriage or, to put it more bluntly, a love story in the frum world is essentially nonexistent. It's like they were single, they were introduced, they met, they liked each other, they got married, the end, right? And then e- and then all, everything else is hopefully private. You know what I mean? It's, like, boring. It's, it's very boring. And, and, and this was a story that was the opposite of boring. And-

04:38 Speaker 1 Oh, it's, it's healthy, you know?

04:41 Speaker 2 It is what it is, man. You first, before you diagnose if it's good or bad or healthy or not healthy-

04:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

04:46 Speaker 2 ... you first gotta say what it is. It's for sure interesting and different. So anyway, with no further ado-

04:52 Speaker 1 No, when you say it's a Derushvi love story, I'm thinking like, does that mean it's a Gorus love story?

04:59 Speaker 2 Well-

04:59 Speaker 1 Or does Mashi- mean it's a Mashiachdik love story? And the truth is it's, yeah, it's both. It's s- it's very much so symptomatic of Gorus.

05:10 Speaker 2 That is-

05:10 Speaker 1 But it's also, and especially in hindsight, real Mashiachdik.

05:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:16 Speaker 1 Mm.

05:17 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:17 Speaker 1 So I think Derushvi is a great-

05:19 Speaker 2 Yeah

05:19 Speaker 1 ... term.

05:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's a shlucha story for good and for bad in some ways, right? It's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's impossible without shlichas there somewhere. Shlichas is a character in, in this story, is it not?

05:33 Speaker 1 Interesting. Yeah, interesting.

05:34 Speaker 2 Shlichas is a character in this story.

05:36 Speaker 1 Mm.

05:36 Speaker 2 And shlichas is, like, a character that's at the beginning, the middle, and the end in different forms.

05:41 Speaker 1 Mm.

05:42 Speaker 2 No?

05:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. No, I'm- The, honestly, the one, the reason I s- like said yes and wanted, like, to do this is because I'm trying to make sense of my story.

05:55 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

05:55 Speaker 1 And yeah, I'm like, this is, it's a developing story, you know? And, and I'm hoping this will help me make sense of it.

06:05 Speaker 2 All right.

06:05 Speaker 1 And your questions will Get me to think about it and try and-

06:09 Speaker 2 Uh, that puts a little bit of pressure on me, but all right. Let's try.

06:12 Speaker 1 No, it's, it's happening, like right now-

06:13 Speaker 2 Yeah

06:13 Speaker 1 ... when you make a comment like that and-

06:16 Speaker 2 Yeah

06:16 Speaker 1 ... I get to think about it.

06:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, you know, Darashvi, in general, you know, that whole idea of Dirah b'Tachtonim is a paradox at, at, at the core, right? Dirah b'Tachtonim, right? The highest-

06:30 Speaker 1 Mm.

06:30 Speaker 2 The highest presence in the lowest c- lowest space, and that's a paradox. There's, there's no, there's no way around it. It, it doesn't make sense. There's no, there's no clever turn of phrase that makes that make sense or makes it in any ways expected or predictable, um, or natural, right?

06:50 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

06:51 Speaker 2 And, you know, Darashvi, Darashvi is, is many ways built on top of that paradox and, and em- and embodies that paradox in many ways in, in the most pure form.

07:02 Speaker 1 Mm.

07:02 Speaker 2 Anyway, we're, we're getting philosophical before we get to the actual story. But why don't we-- Before we get to the love story per se, um, uh, why don't we go... Why don't, why don't we introduce who you are? Like, talk a little bit about who you are, where you grew up. Like, what's your story?

07:20 Speaker 1 I grew up in Johannesburg.

07:23 Speaker 2 Right.

07:23 Speaker 1 The Rebbe sent my parents there in, I think, nineteen seventy-four or nineteen seventy-six.

07:30 Speaker 2 Talk a bit louder.

07:31 Speaker 1 Um, when a lot of Jews were, I guess, leaving the country because of apartheid and-

07:38 Speaker 2 Right

07:39 Speaker 1 ... um, a lot of the chaos that ensued. Um-

07:45 Speaker 2 Your father's Rabbi Yossi Goldman?

07:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:47 Speaker 2 I'm not sure your mother's name. I don't mean to ignore her.

07:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:50 Speaker 2 What's her name?

07:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. Rochel.

07:52 Speaker 2 Rochel.

07:53 Speaker 1 Kazen.

07:54 Speaker 2 Kazen.

07:55 Speaker 1 Yeah. Baba Shula. Bubba Mariasha.

07:56 Speaker 2 Bubba Mariasha.

07:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. I re- I grew up with... I was like, you know.

08:02 Speaker 2 And how many kids? How many kids?

08:04 Speaker 1 My Zayde Yechonon was Gordon.

08:06 Speaker 2 Yechonon Shagalov?

08:07 Speaker 1 The Ga- Yeah.

08:08 Speaker 2 The one that he was killed, right?

08:10 Speaker 1 That's right. Yeah, I grew up on these stories and-

08:12 Speaker 2 Right

08:12 Speaker 1 ... I was told who I was. I was told who I was.

08:15 Speaker 2 Right. Ah, we're gonna... That, that's what we call in the film business foreshadowing.

08:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:20 Speaker 2 So how many siblings did you have?

08:24 Speaker 1 I'm number ten of eleven.

08:25 Speaker 2 So you're the second to youngest.

08:27 Speaker 1 Mm.

08:29 Speaker 2 And you're growing up in South Africa. So you're-- So you said you were told who you were. What do you mean by that?

08:36 Speaker 1 Well, I mean that I, I was told all, all these things about my parents, about my grandparents, about my great-grandparents, about who I am as a... You know. Uh, what I basically mean, uh, I mean, there's a couple, uh, angles, but when you're saying Yechonon Shagalov and, you know. Yeah. I, I meant like I, I felt like there was a lot of pressure-

09:03 Speaker 2 Yeah

09:03 Speaker 1 ... firstly as the rabbi's son in a, in a more basic context. Leave Shlichus Chabad-

09:09 Speaker 2 Right

09:09 Speaker 1 ... or the great matriarchs and patriarchs in my family, the big Hasidim. Just as a rabbi's son, like, I just felt that that was a big, that was a big part of who I was. I, I was the rabbi's son.

09:22 Speaker 2 And it didn't fit you?

09:26 Speaker 1 I just wanted to be a regular dude.

09:28 Speaker 2 Hmm.

09:29 Speaker 1 I didn't wanna be anyone.

09:31 Speaker 2 You wanted to be a regular South African, or you wanted to be like a regular... like your classmates?

09:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, both. Um-

09:37 Speaker 2 Like, what was, what was drawing your attention? Your classmates or the world around you that you saw?

09:44 Speaker 1 Very much, yeah, b-both.

09:46 Speaker 2 Both.

09:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. I just wanted to be a regular South African kid.

09:49 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:49 Speaker 1 And here I was, um, you know, the shliach's son, the rabbi's son, in, in mashul-

09:56 Speaker 2 Right

09:56 Speaker 1 ... the rabbi's son, and in, in life just, you know, the Rebbe's-

10:02 Speaker 2 Right. I don't know if I'm, I don't know if I'm pushing too hard. Like, I don't know if there's, if there's more in this line of, in this, in this line of questioning. But when you say that you wanted to be like a regular South African, was that-- does that mean you wanted them to see you as one of their friends, or does it mean that you wanted to do what they were doing?

10:22 Speaker 1 Interesting. I definitely wanted to do what they were doing.

10:25 Speaker 2 Right.

10:26 Speaker 1 I wasn't always allowed to.

10:27 Speaker 2 Right.

10:28 Speaker 1 I, I can laugh about it now 'cause I understand the context, you know?

10:33 Speaker 2 Right.

10:34 Speaker 1 But, like, one of the things were, like, who your friends are, was very, like... My parents, more specifically my mother, and she'll admit to this, you know, was, was, you know, we were fussy about who your friends were, and she didn't like all my friends.

10:51 Speaker 2 From school?

10:52 Speaker 1 Not, not even necessarily from school, just in general. Like I-

10:54 Speaker 2 Where do you have these friends from?

10:55 Speaker 1 ... I dropped out of school, you know, in the-

10:56 Speaker 2 So this is after you dropped out already.

10:58 Speaker 1 Before too. Whatever.

11:00 Speaker 2 Like, where do you have these friends from? I mean, maybe it's 'cause I don't understand the South African community. Was it from the shul? Like, where did you-

11:06 Speaker 1 Shul.

11:07 Speaker 2 The beach?

11:07 Speaker 1 Shul. Outside of school. I was friends with... I, I really branched out, like in, in, in adolescence.

11:13 Speaker 2 The Jewish community or even past the Jewish community?

11:15 Speaker 1 No, the-- We're just talking Jewish community for now. Yeah.

11:17 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. So you were-- you, you felt in a way more-

11:20 Speaker 1 But let, let me just, let me just finish this, this point.

11:22 Speaker 2 Sure.

11:22 Speaker 1 Like, so m-my mother was the daughter of, uh, Baba Shula, who was running her whole life away from the KGB. I mean, she wasn't allowed friends-

11:33 Speaker 2 Right

11:33 Speaker 1 ... because everyone was a snitch.

11:35 Speaker 2 Right.

11:37 Speaker 1 Um, you just can't trust anyone.

11:38 Speaker 2 Right.

11:39 Speaker 1 So, like, I get the context now of, of-

11:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

11:44 Speaker 1 My mother wasn't allowed friends.

11:46 Speaker 2 Mm. Where did your mother grow up?

11:48 Speaker 1 Cleveland, Ohio.

11:49 Speaker 2 Right.

11:50 Speaker 1 You know? Uh, so, like, it all makes sense now.

11:54 Speaker 2 Right.

11:54 Speaker 1 But, uh, that was the reality. It was like you-- that they w- they wanted to protect me-

12:02 Speaker 2 Mm

12:02 Speaker 1 ... um, um, to have good friends, and the, the same thing I wanna do with my kid now, you know?

12:11 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:12 Speaker 1 And especially after I dropped out of school and after, you know, my bar mitzvah when I-

12:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

12:18 Speaker 1 ... started individuating and really pushing back against this narrative of who I was and wanted to be my own person.

12:25 Speaker 2 Is the word individuating the way that South Africans called rebelling?

12:30 Speaker 1 Uh, that's the word I'm using. I did rebel, yeah.

12:34 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, I-

12:35 Speaker 1 But everyone does, in a sense

12:36 Speaker 2 ... I don't even mean, I don't even mean rebelling in a pejorative way. It's just rebelling as, as a matter of fact, right?

12:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think it's an outcome of individuating.

12:44 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, look, this story is a story as old, as old as time.

12:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:48 Speaker 2 Right? Every-

12:49 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

12:49 Speaker 2 ... and every, in many ways, it's a story of every child and their parents, right?

12:53 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

12:53 Speaker 2 You, you, you rebel against your parents bec- mainly because you don't understand where they... like, what, what they're trying to protect you from. And then-

13:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:01 Speaker 2 ... in some ways, you need to because to grow up completely in your parents' protection is not healthy. But part of-

13:09 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:09 Speaker 2 ... growing up and becoming a parent is realizing, okay, that made sense, and there's-

13:12 Speaker 1 Yeah

13:12 Speaker 2 ... a very, very confusing, dark, weird world, and your kids don't need to be exposed to all of it. It's that every- everybody agrees that your kids don't need to be exposed to all of it.

13:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

13:24 Speaker 2 So at that point, you may as well draw the line somewhere.

13:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm, I, I'm in a stage now, like in my parenthood-

13:31 Speaker 2 Right

13:33 Speaker 1 ... where for a long time I was like, "Just let them be and let them like-"

13:37 Speaker 2 Right.

13:37 Speaker 1 And now I'm like, "Whoa."

13:39 Speaker 2 Right.

13:40 Speaker 1 It's my job to protect them from all the rubbish that-

13:44 Speaker 2 Right

13:44 Speaker 1 ... they don't need to-

13:46 Speaker 2 Right

13:46 Speaker 1 ... be exposed to. And I'm like really making our home more protective from outside energies and stuff.

13:57 Speaker 2 Right. So that, that's even after you... like years after you become a parent.

14:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

14:01 Speaker 2 It's not static. You're-- It's, it's, it's changing as we speak.

14:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. But like the, the, the initial like reflex was to like go the other way. Yeah.

14:10 Speaker 2 Probably because of your childhood.

14:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

14:13 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:14 Speaker 1 I want them to have more, you know-

14:16 Speaker 2 Right

14:16 Speaker 1 ... more freedom and be able to-

14:18 Speaker 2 Yeah

14:18 Speaker 1 ... be more independent and-

14:20 Speaker 2 It's a, it's a, it's a standard, it's a, it's a human-

14:22 Speaker 1 Universal

14:22 Speaker 2 ... it's a universal story, but I do believe that it's important to, it's important to know that it's universal.

14:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:31 Speaker 2 But it's also important to, to understand the particular flavor of the Shliach story. Um, I was not-

14:40 Speaker 1 Yeah

14:40 Speaker 2 ... I was not in a, I was not in any way-- I did not deal with these kind of rebellious, um, impulses in the same way.

14:50 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

14:51 Speaker 2 But I very much understand like the story that you're telling me. I, I, like I, I completely get it. Um, I, I think it has a lot to do with just how like, just this-- it has to do with all kinds of things if you, if you are okay with going along with it or rebelling against it.

15:08 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

15:09 Speaker 2 But you are growing up in a world where, it's like you said, like I was told who I was. It's all abstract. It's all-

15:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Totally

15:19 Speaker 2 ... it, it, it's-- And that abstraction is completely in conflict with what you see with your own eyes.

15:25 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

15:26 Speaker 2 Right? Like, you're like told, "No, you're not like them." And it's like, "No, no, no, I'm exactly like them."

15:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:32 Speaker 2 "I'm exactly like them."

15:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:33 Speaker 2 Right? Like, no, no, no.

15:34 Speaker 1 Like I wasn't sent on Shlichus, okay?

15:37 Speaker 2 Right.

15:37 Speaker 1 You guys were.

15:38 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And, and you were born like 10 kids deep into it, and like you're, you know, I'm sure like a bun- no, I'm saying like a bunch of your siblings probably were already married or getting married and-

15:48 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

15:48 Speaker 2 ... like there's a whole world that you're born into. It's not fresh at this point anymore, and-

15:54 Speaker 1 There's a story I... It's just when some- when everyone asks me, "Oh my God, how is it like being like one of 11?"

16:01 Speaker 2 Right.

16:01 Speaker 1 You know? Like my classic go-to story is like when Yochanan, you, you know who you live next to-

16:06 Speaker 2 Yeah

16:06 Speaker 1 ... we'd call on a Erev Shabbos. Like I knew he was my brother.

16:09 Speaker 2 Right. How much-- He's quite a bit older than you.

16:11 Speaker 1 18 years.

16:12 Speaker 2 Right. Okay. Like me and my-

16:13 Speaker 1 But I would still say, "Do you wanna speak to my mother?"

16:17 Speaker 2 My mother.

16:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:18 Speaker 2 He felt like an uncle probably.

16:20 Speaker 1 I knew he was my brother. It just didn't click on the same level as if he's, you know-

16:23 Speaker 2 But that's-

16:23 Speaker 1 ... living with me

16:24 Speaker 2 ... right. Right. That's also kind of a... That's also that tension of abstraction and like you're told-- you know that he's your brother, but it's hard to... That there's, there's, there's two, there's different facets to every truth, right? There's the abstract part of it, like-

16:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:38 Speaker 2 ... the fact, the fact of it, right? But then a brother is also someone that you grow up with, that you share experiences-

16:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

16:45 Speaker 2 ... with, that you, that you-

16:46 Speaker 1 I'm getting to know him now.

16:47 Speaker 2 Right.

16:47 Speaker 1 For the first-

16:48 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So things can change with time, but-

16:51 Speaker 1 It's beautiful actually. Yeah

16:52 Speaker 2 ... right. But at the moment, at the moment, it's like, yeah, he's my brother, but I, I don't, uh, we don't spend any time together. I mean, I have a younger sibling who's also I think about 18 years separate from me. I'm the oldest. And it's also compounded by the fact that when you grow up in a, in a country that you leave and you go-

17:12 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

17:12 Speaker 2 ... to, you know, he left South Africa, I left Hong Kong.

17:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:15 Speaker 2 You see your siblings once or twice a year.

17:18 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:18 Speaker 2 Right? Yeah. You're in, in, in, in, in effect, you're an uncle.

17:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

17:24 Speaker 2 In effect, you're an uncle. And it's a similar, it's a similar, it's a similar thing about the Lubavitch scene. Like, you're like, yeah, you're told you're a Lubavitcher. You're told that you're a Shliach, and that's true. It's not that it's, it's not that it's false.

17:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

17:37 Speaker 2 It's not that your parents are lying to you. It's true. But your lived reality is very different, right? You're like, "I'm a South African kid."

17:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. I was born here.

17:47 Speaker 2 I was born here, and like I enjoy the same food they enjoy, and I enjoy the same sports that they enjoy, and I imagine. I don't know.

17:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. And like I just... No, I don't wanna be different.

17:57 Speaker 2 You don't wanna be different.

17:58 Speaker 1 Which is ironic, 'cause then I really wanted to be different.

18:01 Speaker 2 You wanted to be different from them or from your parents?

18:04 Speaker 1 I don't know. I just, um... No, I wanted to be the same as everyone.

18:10 Speaker 2 Right.

18:10 Speaker 1 But then, I don't know, a large part of my life, I just wanted to be different, I guess.

18:15 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

18:16 Speaker 1 Like n- like it's interesting now Coming to the Kinus for me, like in-- even just going to seven seventy, just being like in that washing machine, being like a cog in the wheel, you know, and that Kinus photo-

18:30 Speaker 2 Tough suit

18:30 Speaker 1 ... where you-- It's talking to me now. Like, I think a, a large part of the reason I didn't come to this main Kinus was... I mean, the whole journey, I mean, I'm, I'm come, coming to the end of it. We didn't really get to the beginning part, but in a nutshell, the whole embracing of that identity as a Shliach is a, is a, it's, it's still happening very much so. Like I'm, I'm in the... A couple years ago only did I s- really start to think of myself as a Shliach.

19:00 Speaker 2 How many years ago did you-

19:01 Speaker 1 Um-

19:01 Speaker 2 ... officially go on Shlichus?

19:04 Speaker 1 Officially twenty sixteen.

19:08 Speaker 2 So eight, eight years ago, approximately.

19:10 Speaker 1 Eight years ago, yeah. So I would say about three years ago I really started to see my-- Like I had a, I had a v- I had a, an experience where... Like honestly, I would dread, I would dread coming to-- Even, like I never came to this Kinus. I would always go to the campus Kinus, but even that I would dread 'cause I never saw myself in terms of like Chabad and in terms of specially, so there's Anash and then there's like the, you know, the Shluchim-

19:37 Speaker 2 Right

19:37 Speaker 1 ... sort of like a more sort of concentric circle-

19:41 Speaker 2 Right

19:41 Speaker 1 ... if you see it like that.

19:42 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:44 Speaker 1 Um, I never saw myself as part of it.

19:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

19:49 Speaker 1 I don't know, maybe it's from all the years of trying, of fighting against that identity or just trying to be normal.

19:55 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:55 Speaker 1 A regular dude. Um, and i- I would come to the Kinus, and I'd feel like such an outsider, like the campus Kinus even.

20:03 Speaker 2 Even the campus Kinus?

20:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And, and if you're talking about concentric circles, like this Kinus is like the real, real Kinus, and that was like, "Oh, it's the campus guys."

20:12 Speaker 2 Right.

20:13 Speaker 1 So like I'll be okay to come to that.

20:15 Speaker 2 Right.

20:16 Speaker 1 But this I would never come to.

20:18 Speaker 2 Right.

20:18 Speaker 1 But even then I was like, I'd, I'd have anxiety like-

20:22 Speaker 2 Well, I think in some ways it's like you-

20:23 Speaker 1 I'm an outsider. These guys are judging me, and like I'm not one of them, and all these stories. And then like a couple years ago-

20:30 Speaker 2 Were you embarrassed to like be in a picture with them? Like, like to come back home and like just-

20:35 Speaker 1 I just had like a serious imposter syndrome.

20:37 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. I-- Even to put on a black hat, which like I never wore.

20:42 Speaker 2 Right.

20:42 Speaker 1 I felt like I was this, this is not me. I'm just faking it.

20:46 Speaker 2 You're faking it.

20:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:47 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:50 Speaker 1 Like someone saw me yesterday, and I was wearing my black hat. Like, "Is that, is that Nisan Goldman in a standard issue black hat? Like I don't recognize you."

20:58 Speaker 2 It, it's, it's... I-

21:01 Speaker 1 So three, so three years ago, I had this, I had this experience like I was in, I was in Cape Town, and I was like I'm going and I was really not looking forward to that whole experience. Like there was like one or two guys that I knew and whatever, I'll chill with them. And then, I don't know, Hashem like put this thought in my head, and it was like, what, what if, what if they're not judging you? What if-

21:27 Speaker 2 These other Babuchers you're talking about.

21:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, the other Shluchim. Like what if-

21:29 Speaker 2 Right

21:29 Speaker 1 ... what if this whole story of you being an outsider and being judged is, is actually you judging you?

21:38 Speaker 2 Right.

21:40 Speaker 1 And I thought to myself, you know what? I'm gonna go this year. I'm gonna go, and I'm just gonna pretend like I'm one of the guys.

21:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

21:50 Speaker 1 Like I'm a real Shliach.

21:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:54 Speaker 1 And I went, and I lit- literally that's what I did. I just made as if I behaved. Not that I necessarily believed it, but I behaved as if. And, you know, the real OGs, you know, all the big guys, farbrengen, and I would sit down next to them, and I would just make like I'm one of them. And they treated me like that, and I felt like it was reciprocated, and I, I realized, whoa, it actually was me the whole time.

22:27 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:29 Speaker 1 And I felt like, wow, I really felt, I really felt part of the family.

22:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was a... What do they call it? A-

22:41 Speaker 2 Maturity?

22:42 Speaker 1 It was a real, um, ex- it was a real like, um, like a rebirthing. It was a foundational experience for me.

22:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:53 Speaker 1 A real coming of age, uh-

22:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. That is a coming, that is a coming, that is a coming of age.

22:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. And like at the-- I remember at the banquet where everyone is-

23:02 Speaker 2 There in South Africa?

23:04 Speaker 1 No, this is the campus Kinus.

23:06 Speaker 2 This is the campus Kinus?

23:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. This is the campus Kinus. Um, I remember at the banquet, like we were doing, you know, we were dancing, uh, from seven seventy and, you know, the whole thing else is, um, and I was just dancing with all of these brothers.

23:25 Speaker 2 Right.

23:25 Speaker 1 And I had this, I had this, again, th- this crazy internal experience of like, wow, these are my, these are my brothers. Like-

23:33 Speaker 2 Right

23:33 Speaker 1 ... identifying with them on the deepest level. Like I'm part of many groups and circles-

23:40 Speaker 2 Right

23:40 Speaker 1 ... where we share some level of identity.

23:44 Speaker 2 Right.

23:44 Speaker 1 Whether it's Jews or, you know, I'm part of a, a men's group in Cape Town, Mankind, um, and we share lots of areas of our lives together. But this, when I was in that room with all like of the campus Shluchim-

24:00 Speaker 2 Mm

24:02 Speaker 1 ... I felt, wow, this is me. Like these are my, these are, these are my family. Ver- Like deeper than I've ever felt in any other circle.

24:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:13 Speaker 1 That's-- I think that's when things clicked for me. The first time I felt it.

24:18 Speaker 2 Hmm. This week's episode is brought to you by This World Is a Garden, a new film and concert production by UVLA Media. Based on the Rebbe's first talk, Basse Legani, the production tells the story of the Chabad vision lasting over three hundred years, to see this world as God sees it, as His garden. Combining beautiful cinematography with a live performance of a string quartet, This World Is a Garden is a meditation on hope and holding on to a vision as time passes by. This production is now available to be shown at your Chabad House and community. Share the message and vision of Basse Legani with your community in a way you never have before. For more information, please visit thisworldisagarden.com.

25:07 Speaker 1 So this is my first Kinus.

25:09 Speaker 2 This is your first Kinus.

25:09 Speaker 1 Like my first like, you know, the real-

25:12 Speaker 2 And so far so good?

25:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm now, I'm now used to like... Yeah, um, obviously there's still-

25:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

25:21 Speaker 1 I have to remind myself-

25:22 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think this is-

25:23 Speaker 1 ... I'm part of this

25:24 Speaker 2 ... you know, it's, it's this interesting tension between the individual and the community, I think. You know, it's, it's... Once you, once you kind of take a step out, whether you actually take a step out or you in your mind kind of disconnect, then when you rejoin, if you rejoin, many times you don't... You feel like, "Okay, I'll rejoin, but I don't wanna rejoin in a way that I lose my individuality."

25:55 Speaker 1 That's literally what I'm going through like right now.

25:58 Speaker 2 Right? And, and it, it's a tough, it's a tough thing to negotiate, right? It's a tough thing to negotiate, right? You like, you cannot put the toothpaste back in the, back in the tube. You know what I mean? You don't talk that way in South Africa?

26:13 Speaker 1 Strange metaphor, but I get it.

26:14 Speaker 2 Right. Once you... You know, it doesn't go back in.

26:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

26:17 Speaker 2 And, and, and so then you have to really figure out-

26:19 Speaker 1 Right

26:19 Speaker 2 ... like how do I fit back in here without like... I don't wanna like lose my story and lose who I am.

26:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

26:29 Speaker 2 But at the same time, um, at the same time, I don't want to be forever my own guy, um, making believe like I have all the answers, you know? Um-

26:40 Speaker 1 So that's exactly what I was saying about like just being in s- like it's such a foreign experience. Like being in seven 70 is literally not a s... There's nowhere to sit. Like everyone's on, on top of you. Like there's four guys' tefillin bags on top of yours, and your hat's squished under five people, and you... I'm like this morning I'm standing there and I'm like, part of me is like, "Oh my God, I hate this. I don't have my own set place, and I don't... I, I... And, and for..." There's the whole thing of like, you know, in Cape Town, I'm the, I'm the rabbi.

27:07 Speaker 2 Right.

27:07 Speaker 1 I'm just here. Like I'm, I'm the king.

27:09 Speaker 2 Cape Town sounds like a funny place.

27:11 Speaker 1 Um, and here you're like, you feel like a nobody.

27:14 Speaker 2 Right.

27:15 Speaker 1 And you're being pushed around by these four-year-olds-

27:18 Speaker 2 Right

27:18 Speaker 1 ... you know, who like live here, and they, they'll step on you.

27:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

27:22 Speaker 1 It's such a... Part of, part of it's like excruciatingly painful, and part of it is so freeing.

27:30 Speaker 2 Rebben ze chushin chassidim, it's an old kind of Chassidis kind of... You know, it's a... I don't know if Och chassidim, but at Lubavitch-

27:36 Speaker 1 What did you say?

27:37 Speaker 2 Rebben ze chushin chassidim like to-

27:39 Speaker 1 What does that mean?

27:39 Speaker 2 I don't, I don't know if the word is rub or, or, or just... I think the word... It's, it's to kind of mingle, but mingle hard-

27:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

27:46 Speaker 2 ... with chassidim. So like, like you would have stories back in Lubavitch where these like crusty chassidim, like some of them wealthy chassidim who, like you said, they're used to pretty-

27:57 Speaker 1 Bademocher.

27:58 Speaker 2 Yeah. And like in general-

28:00 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

28:00 Speaker 2 ... for them to come to Lubavitch was to come to a backwater, right? It's like... No, literally, it's like-

28:05 Speaker 1 It's very good for me. Yeah.

28:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and then they would come, and they would instead of sitting on a perch, they would like go into the, into the soup. They would go into the-

28:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Brilliant.

28:14 Speaker 2 And, and it's, and it's not because he needed... Like it's not that he needed to get to a spot on the shores. It was for that. It's... That was... It was for that. It wasn't for something else.

28:23 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

28:23 Speaker 2 It wasn't to get some, to point B. It was... No, no. That is the point. It's to... And it's interesting, it just, just-

28:29 Speaker 1 They call it the washing machine, right?

28:30 Speaker 2 Right.

28:30 Speaker 1 'Cause it cleans you.

28:32 Speaker 2 Okay. I don't think that's why they called it that, but-

28:33 Speaker 1 Well, that, that, that's what, that's what I-

28:35 Speaker 2 But that's how you see it.

28:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

28:37 Speaker 2 No, it's interesting 'cause a couple weeks ago-

28:39 Speaker 1 Come in and get clean

28:39 Speaker 2 ... a, a couple weeks ago, I sat with Rabbi Nissen Manguel.

28:42 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

28:42 Speaker 2 And, um, he told a story where-

28:46 Speaker 1 Wow

28:46 Speaker 2 ... he had brought a, he had brought a, a Bachur that he knew from Lakewood who I, I think was friendly with him, but wasn't... Was kind of intrigued about chassidis, but wasn't... But was kind of very much on the fence ideologically about chassidis. And Nissen Manguel went into yechidas, and never said about this Bachur, "Bring him to fabringen and make sure people elbow him." Like, like give him like a, give him like-

29:13 Speaker 1 I get it.

29:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. Like-

29:15 Speaker 1 That's fantastic.

29:16 Speaker 2 Right. And the, and the goal isn't, of course, to hurt him or to, or to like, you know, harass him, but like that, that person later commented that that made a b- profound impact on his life.

29:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

29:27 Speaker 2 And, you know, maybe in a way there's a metaphor there where like at the end of the day, th-there is a tension, and that tension, that tension is good, right? If, if there's no tension, there's no rubbing.

29:40 Speaker 1 You're unique just like everyone else.

29:42 Speaker 2 Right. Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and, and there's tension, and that's fine.

29:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

29:46 Speaker 2 That's f- that's fine. Like, like it's uncomfortable.

29:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

29:49 Speaker 2 It's uncomfortable and... But that's what makes it work, right?

29:53 Speaker 1 So like the Kinus photo-

29:55 Speaker 2 Right

29:55 Speaker 1 ... is like the big... That's like, for me, like that's pure ego death right there.

30:01 Speaker 2 Nobody can find you.

30:03 Speaker 1 You're just like everyone else.

30:05 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. I mean, I-

30:07 Speaker 1 Like should I wear, should I wear like a pink ta- Should I wear something like say... Should I just, just be like everyone else? Should I just melt into the background and become-

30:15 Speaker 2 Right

30:16 Speaker 1 ... part of-

30:16 Speaker 2 I hear what you're saying

30:17 Speaker 1 ... the collective?

30:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

30:19 Speaker 1 And that's a really... Yeah. I need, I need that.

30:22 Speaker 2 That's... That... I... Look, I, I, I'm not, I'm not a shlichas, but, um... Not anymore, but-

30:29 Speaker 1 You were?

30:30 Speaker 2 For a few years.

30:30 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah?

30:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, but I can see what you're saying. Like to me, that's something that, that I feel around wearing the kippah is the same thing.

30:39 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. No, bro, I fought it so hard.

30:42 Speaker 2 On one hand, on one hand, on one hand... And, and again, I wasn't r- it was only, it's only recently that it bothers me. Um, you know, I-

30:51 Speaker 1 What bothers you?

30:52 Speaker 2 The kippah.

30:53 Speaker 1 Oh, interesting.

30:54 Speaker 2 It... Because it's, you know, like it, it, it's like you're saying, like when you put on a kippah, you basically are putting on... You're acknowledging that you're part of this team.

31:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

31:05 Speaker 2 And many Shabbats, I have zero interest in this team.

31:10 Speaker 1 Hmm.

31:11 Speaker 2 And I don't want to be assumed You know, oh, you're wearing a kapota, you must, you must be interested in XYZ, and it's like, actually, no, I'm not. Like, and why are you making-

31:23 Speaker 1 You're gonna be misgendered.

31:25 Speaker 2 Kind of.

31:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:25 Speaker 2 Like, stop making assumptions based on-

31:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

31:27 Speaker 2 ... based on this, this traditional garb that we're all wearing, right?

31:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

31:32 Speaker 2 Like, I put it on, you know what I mean? And-

31:35 Speaker 1 It's interesting, I'm like coming so from the other angle, the other way, the other direction.

31:40 Speaker 2 No, but I, but I, but I identify with what you're saying because sometimes, sometimes on a summer Shabbos, I resist it. I'm like, "I'm not gonna wear it. I don't want to. Like, I'm not, I'm not in the mood. I, I don't want to." You know, just I... But then, but then I'll put, you know, then I'll, then I'll put it on, and I'm like, "Okay," you know, like, "Just get over yourself, man." Like, like, yeah.

32:03 Speaker 1 Let it mean something to you.

32:04 Speaker 2 Yeah. And so get over yourself. Like-

32:06 Speaker 1 Mm.

32:06 Speaker 2 Like, you're not wearing it because, because it's like, yes, th-there's something... Uh, so what is it? For me, I'm trying to think. Is it that I, like, now feel like I belong? I feel like now I, like I, I, I can coexist with the two things. Like, I can, I can deal with, I can deal with it. You know, like-

32:29 Speaker 1 People are understood

32:30 Speaker 2 ... there's me, there's me who I am in my head, and then there's this that I do that's because I feel like I belong to this-

32:37 Speaker 1 Mm

32:38 Speaker 2 ... even if I don't completely understand it-

32:39 Speaker 1 Mm

32:39 Speaker 2 ... or I'm not completely at peace with it at all times.

32:42 Speaker 1 Mm.

32:42 Speaker 2 And that's it. Like, it, it, it... My interior dilemma or my interior doesn't always have to override the sense of belonging, you know? Um, but I, I, you know, I can't say that I fully resolved it. Um-

33:02 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

33:02 Speaker 2 ... uh, in a way, in many ways, that's what this podcast is about. That's what this podcast is about. Um, you know, and, and one of the, you know, one of the very pleasant surprises for me is that as I talk to more and more people, I realize maybe something that's obvious to other people, but to me it wasn't so obvious, is that, wasn't so obvious, is that many people that look like they're just another fa- you know, another-

33:29 Speaker 1 Mm

33:29 Speaker 2 ... another dude that looks like everybody else-

33:31 Speaker 1 Mm.

33:31 Speaker 2 No, they have their own thoughts, they have their own-

33:33 Speaker 1 Story.

33:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, you know. And, and so then what's the point of everybody dressing the same? Well, I think maybe we took it a bit far in the sense everyone has to wear white shirts all the time and, you know, like...

33:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

33:43 Speaker 2 But, but the general idea of, of, of, of like a dress code and, and a traditional garb, no, there's, there's a, there's a sense of belonging. There's a strong symbolism there, you know? Um, at the end of the day, when you don't belong, you're, you're inherently adrift. You're on your own, and there's no need to live life that way, right? Anyway, let's, let's go back to the beginning, the, to the middle of your story or towards the beginning of your story. So, so you-

34:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, I kind of skipped.

34:12 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's all right.

34:12 Speaker 1 What have I gotta do there?

34:14 Speaker 2 That's all right. It, it's good for ADD people. It keeps them on their toes, you know what I-

34:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:18 Speaker 2 Yeah. It keeps them on their toes. We dance around, um, or as Donald Trump calls it, it's the weave. It's the weave. You just gotta get... I, I don't know. It's-

34:27 Speaker 1 American politics. Help my-

34:30 Speaker 2 Uh, it's pretty global

34:30 Speaker 1 ... talk to me. What, yeah.

34:31 Speaker 2 Anyway, so, so, um, s-so you grew up with this kind of, uh, bifurcation almost between the idea of who you're supposed to be or who you are, and who you actually feel that you are.

34:48 Speaker 1 I'll tell you the most perfect metaphor for the way I feel. You ever watched The Lion King?

34:55 Speaker 2 Um, I did. I, I did a few times as a kid, yes.

34:58 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:58 Speaker 2 I just don't remember all the details.

35:00 Speaker 1 Okay, so Simba.

35:01 Speaker 2 Right. Simba is a, is a young lion.

35:03 Speaker 1 Simba is the prince.

35:05 Speaker 2 The prince.

35:05 Speaker 1 Right.

35:06 Speaker 2 Right.

35:06 Speaker 1 The son of Mufasa, the king.

35:08 Speaker 2 Right.

35:10 Speaker 1 And he just wants to be a regular animal in the jungle, like Timon and Pumbaa, like the meerkat and the warthog, and he runs away from his destiny of who he is and who, uh-

35:21 Speaker 2 Pardon me, excuse me, Simon. Wasn't his father killed first?

35:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, but he was next in line to be king.

35:28 Speaker 2 Right.

35:29 Speaker 1 Right?

35:30 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying for him to be king, he has to, he has also to find something heroic in himself, right?

35:35 Speaker 1 Well, no, he was the prince.

35:37 Speaker 2 Okay.

35:37 Speaker 1 He was the son of the king, so he was next in line. His father did get killed in the end.

35:40 Speaker 2 Okay.

35:42 Speaker 1 Um, but the point is, he ran away from who he was-

35:45 Speaker 2 Mm

35:45 Speaker 1 ... his identity. He just wanted to be like a regular jungle-

35:49 Speaker 2 Right

35:49 Speaker 1 ... animal, like a meerkat and a warthog.

35:52 Speaker 2 Right.

35:52 Speaker 1 Timon and Pumbaa.

35:53 Speaker 2 These are all your neighbors, by the way, for those who are- ... are living down the street from you.

35:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, gosh. Um, and then he... Yeah, I don't know. He has this, he has this massive awakening, you know, this vision of his father.

36:10 Speaker 2 Right.

36:10 Speaker 1 "Remember who you are," Mufasa says to him from the-

36:15 Speaker 2 Right

36:15 Speaker 1 ... heavens. And he comes home.

36:18 Speaker 2 Right.

36:18 Speaker 1 And he, and he embraces who he is, his identity, and assumes the kingship, the mantle of leadership. And that was like, that, that is like my story. I've always identified with Simba. Um-

36:34 Speaker 2 So, so you-

36:34 Speaker 1 I remember actually watching The Lion King as, uh, 15, I think I was 15, with my dad on the couch. He would, like, let us watch these sort of kosher films-

36:45 Speaker 2 Sure

36:45 Speaker 1 ... as long as we discussed, like, the message of the film afterwards.

36:53 Speaker 2 Okay.

36:53 Speaker 1 And there was something, some toy sense in it, and I actually was bawling my eyes out.

36:57 Speaker 2 Really?

36:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I was, I, I turned my, it was like I turned my face. I didn't want him to see me. I was embarrassed. But for a different reason, because I was just like-

37:08 Speaker 2 It spoke to you

37:08 Speaker 1 ... I was a bad son, you know? Rebellious son.

37:13 Speaker 2 At this point, at 15.

37:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. And you know, when, like, Simba runs away- Dis-- And Mufasa's like, "You deliberately disobeyed me, Simba." You know? Ran away, and yeah. So, I g- so there's two-- There's the part of being like the rebellious son and running away from who you are and your, your lineage and your destiny. And there's also the part of the rebellious son, yeah.

37:40 Speaker 2 So how, how did you deal with that disappointment of your parents? Clearly, you were sensitive to it.

37:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, but my-

37:47 Speaker 2 How did you justify it in your own mind?

37:52 Speaker 1 I was disappointed by it, but I... Look, there's some people who can deal with-

38:01 Speaker 2 You're disappointed in yourself?

38:03 Speaker 1 Yes.

38:04 Speaker 2 Uh.

38:04 Speaker 1 But-- And it was-- Which hurt because I needed to do what I needed to do.

38:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:09 Speaker 1 You know, some people can-- some kids can get by, you know, put their head down and just trug- truck through, and get out on the other side. But I, I couldn't. Like, my parents wanted me to be one thing, and I, I needed-- I wanted to taste the world, and I wanted to figure things out on my own, and I was not gonna be told who I am.

38:30 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:31 Speaker 1 So that really-- that need really trumped the need to be good.

38:37 Speaker 2 Did you tell them, did you tell them that? Or it was too-

38:40 Speaker 1 Actually, actually-

38:41 Speaker 2 ... too painful to talk about it like that?

38:42 Speaker 1 No. A-actually, there was a point where I decided I am no longer... It was like a, it was like an ethical dilemma for me.

38:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:51 Speaker 1 Because I was hiding most of my life from my parents, doing everything behind their back 'cause I didn't wanna cause them pain, and I knew that they would be in pain. Uh, they were, but I knew if-- They knew some of the stuff I was, I was up to, but not nearly all of it. And-

39:09 Speaker 2 So it was a deliberate decision not to tell them?

39:13 Speaker 1 Yes, but what, what I'm talking about now is e-eventually, I came to a deliberate decision to tell them.

39:18 Speaker 2 Mm.

39:19 Speaker 1 I was like, "I, I just... I need to be honest."

39:22 Speaker 2 "I want you to know who I am."

39:24 Speaker 1 "I want you to know who I am, and I need to be honest." Like, "I don't want to keep hiding from you."

39:31 Speaker 2 Right.

39:31 Speaker 1 And that, in retrospect, was pretty s-- was a dumb idea.

39:36 Speaker 2 It was a dumb idea. Your parents were not ready for it.

39:38 Speaker 1 They were not ready for it, no. I, I was-

39:40 Speaker 2 They, they, they, they-

39:41 Speaker 1 It was very painful.

39:42 Speaker 2 They believed that it was not happening, or they just-

39:45 Speaker 1 They didn't, they didn't. They were in denial of the extent of it, I guess.

39:49 Speaker 2 Mm.

39:49 Speaker 1 And in re-- Like, being a dad now and knowing what I know now, I regret that decision. I mean, I don't know if I regret that decision, but yeah, that caused them unnecessary pain.

40:01 Speaker 2 But did you explain to them what it was or-

40:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. I said, "Listen, I don't wanna hide anything from you. I wanna be open and honest."

40:06 Speaker 2 No, but why? But why? Did you explain to them why? Do you-- Like, did-

40:10 Speaker 1 I said, "I wanna be an honest son. I don't want to lie to you, and I don't want to..." Yeah. I said, "I don't wanna lie to you anymore."

40:17 Speaker 2 Did you explain why you didn't-- that it didn't resonate with you? That, that, like, "This isn't for me, that I'm-- that I don't f..." Like, did you explain to them why what they were telling you didn't, didn't-

40:26 Speaker 1 No.

40:27 Speaker 2 Or, or it's too, it's too painful to, to like get into that kind of philosophical-

40:33 Speaker 1 I, I don't know. I think it was pretty obvious. Like, I just didn't wanna live their life.

40:36 Speaker 2 Right.

40:37 Speaker 1 I wanted to figure things out by myself.

40:39 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying is there like a, you know... Do you have questions about faith that we can answer? Is that kinda like a, a-

40:45 Speaker 1 I don't think it was a questions of faith issue at all.

40:49 Speaker 2 Right. I'm saying did they go there?

40:49 Speaker 1 Like, I was, I was actually always like... I was very spiritual. Like, in fact, you know, I was forty. I was like, became like a bit of a, you know, like a little bit of a hippie, and I was-

40:59 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:00 Speaker 1 You know, um, like the first stage of it was like putting on my na-na, you know, thing. And I would, uh, play guitar, and I was like, "I'm gonna, I'm going to, I'm gonna connect to God through music."

41:12 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:13 Speaker 1 Not through the Chumash. I'm just Torah learning, and I'm gonna, you know, all the, you know, regular shtick of a teenager.

41:20 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:20 Speaker 1 And I would, you know, go and sleep on the field out under the stars. I had my, my one buddy who was also going through a bit of a thing. His, his parents were like strict in a different kind of way. His dad was like a lawyer.

41:31 Speaker 2 All right.

41:32 Speaker 1 His dad was so strict, and the two of us were like... He was, he wasn't like a, it was like in a frum household, but-

41:41 Speaker 2 Right

41:42 Speaker 1 ... he was, he needed to... His spirit needed to break free like mine did also, but from a completely different thing. So we went on that thing together. Eventually, I just dropped out of school. Like, I I said, "I'm not gonna learn from textbooks anymore. I'm gonna learn from experience," and-

41:58 Speaker 2 Right

41:59 Speaker 1 ... handed my resignation to the principal, and that was also a very painful thing, you know. The rabbi's son dropping out of school, and it was like unhear- no one dropped out of school. It was unheard of.

42:10 Speaker 2 So what did your parents have to say about that?

42:14 Speaker 1 Like, I mean, there was-- They tried to do everything they could to convince me out of it, but there was nothing c-

42:21 Speaker 2 Was it anger? Was it disappointment? Was it sadness?

42:23 Speaker 1 Huge disappointment. I'm sure there was anger. Massive sadness. Yeah, I'm sure. Honestly, it's a whole, it's a big blur.

42:32 Speaker 2 Right. Uh, I'm not-

42:34 Speaker 1 It was a very traumatic time for me too because-

42:35 Speaker 2 I'm sure

42:36 Speaker 1 ... not just for them, because it was, it was a very painful time.

42:41 Speaker 2 Right.

42:45 Speaker 1 We weren't exactly on speaking terms.

42:47 Speaker 2 You weren't. But you were living at-

42:48 Speaker 1 At some points.

42:48 Speaker 2 But you were living at home?

42:49 Speaker 1 Especially when, you know, I got a girlfriend.

42:51 Speaker 2 Were you living at home?

42:53 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

42:54 Speaker 2 So you're living at home, but it's almost like a thumb-

42:58 Speaker 1 For the most part. I was, I mean, I, I was like a-away from home as much as possible.

43:02 Speaker 2 So living at home, but basically s- like a thumb under eye, essentially.

43:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:09 Speaker 2 Hmm.

43:13 Speaker 1 And then the last straw on the camel's back was, you know, having a girlfriend.

43:18 Speaker 2 Really?

43:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. That was like-

43:20 Speaker 2 Why, why that of all things?

43:25 Speaker 1 We do not

43:26 Speaker 2 I'm saying you were religious in any other sense at this point?

43:30 Speaker 1 I did a lot of things for them, like give it away.

43:33 Speaker 2 But they-

43:34 Speaker 1 So they, they... There was room for them to, like, misjudge the situation.

43:37 Speaker 2 But wait, when you were honest with them, you were-- you told them that you were Shomer Shabbos or...?

43:42 Speaker 1 No. So like part, part of the-

43:45 Speaker 2 Telling them-

43:45 Speaker 1 -coming clean was, you know-

43:47 Speaker 2 I have a girlfriend.

43:47 Speaker 1 I remember they were, they were-- or we were, we were in the-- my dad's office, and they were, like, talking about a shidduch for, like, one of my brothers. And I was like... This was after like months of, you know, um, Ashley, n-now Ariella. She was like, "I can't deal with this double life. You need to tell your parents about us." And eventually, I gave in. Like, it was the very, very scary for me thing to do for me to tell them 'cause it was like it was a big no-no. It was like off, no, this was off, off bounds.

44:20 Speaker 2 More than keeping Shabbos?

44:23 Speaker 1 I never, never really told them that.

44:25 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

44:26 Speaker 1 Um...

44:28 Speaker 2 See, I guess this is more public.

44:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:31 Speaker 2 So like you have to, like you have to hide.

44:33 Speaker 1 Right.

44:33 Speaker 2 Whereas other things are more private.

44:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the, you know, so they were, they were m-talking about a shidduch, and I was like, "This is the perfect time for me to, you know, spill the beans, to come clean." I was like, "By the way, guys, you don't have to worry about me. I know who I'm gonna marry."

44:50 Speaker 2 Oh, you were, you were sure already?

44:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. I was sixteen years old and in love.

44:56 Speaker 2 All right, but sometimes sixteen-year-olds are not planning getting married to the person, but okay.

45:03 Speaker 1 I, I was sixteen years old.

45:04 Speaker 2 Sure.

45:05 Speaker 1 You know what I mean?

45:05 Speaker 2 Right. I, I, I, I think... I, I just try to understand a little bit better why, why the, why the girlfriend. It's not just in your story, in general, like, I wonder, like, if it's because so long as there isn't supposedly another person involved, it's like, okay, like, you know, he could-- tomorrow he could change and go back, like everything, everything could go back to how it was.

45:39 Speaker 1 Hmm.

45:39 Speaker 2 And when there's another person introduced, it's like, okay, no, no.

45:43 Speaker 1 We've lost him.

45:45 Speaker 2 No, it's just, it's, it's never gonna go back to nothing.

45:48 Speaker 1 Mm.

45:48 Speaker 2 Like it's not, it, it's not a... The, the-- It can never be a fully blank slate. And of course, you take it to the next step. If someone has a kid with someone, like then, like that's obvious.

45:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. That makes it, that makes it real. Yeah.

45:59 Speaker 2 Right. No, but then that's already a, then that's a inter-- Like, then it's for sure something that can't go back.

46:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

46:03 Speaker 2 But even just a... I wonder if that's what it is. Like there's... Because there is-- it's does seem like, yeah, I, I understand it's not something that we do. I understand that we don't go... But there's a lot of things that we don't do, and for some reason, this is the thing that always-

46:16 Speaker 1 This is a big one. This is a big one.

46:17 Speaker 2 This is always the thing that, like, people, like, get completely bent out of shape with, and it's like, why? Why? Um, I'm not, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to say it's not a, it's not a... I'm not trying to say it shouldn't be a problem or-

46:32 Speaker 1 Mm.

46:32 Speaker 2 -we should advocate for it. I'm not-- I understand, I think, why, why our community thinks it's not a good idea for many reasons, but that this should be like the, the, the hill to die on. You know what I mean? Like, like you'd think there are other things.

46:50 Speaker 1 Mm.

46:50 Speaker 2 But anyway, so, so let's talk a little bit about this, about, about this story. So 'cause I, I, I, we, we, we were, we've been talking a little bit in, in riddle here.

46:59 Speaker 1 Okay.

46:59 Speaker 2 How, how did you meet? It has a lot to do with shlichas, right?

47:03 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned that. So interesting. It's r- Ugh. It's amazing looking back and just seeing Hashem's hand in everything, how it all was so perfectly orchestrated. Um, so my, uh, sister, um, Sarah, um, married, uh, Oshie Feldman from Australia.

47:25 Speaker 2 Right.

47:26 Speaker 1 So they were appointed to have been a couple of the Garden Shul in Cape Town.

47:31 Speaker 2 Right.

47:32 Speaker 1 Now-

47:33 Speaker 2 Which is a flight from Johannesburg, right?

47:34 Speaker 1 It's a two-hour flight, yeah. Cape Town is like a beautiful city in South Africa. The beau... Like every December, people go down there.

47:43 Speaker 2 Right.

47:43 Speaker 1 Just the whole, all the youth of South Africa, like, descend on Cape Town. It was like one big party scene.

47:48 Speaker 2 Right.

47:49 Speaker 1 So they lived there for shlichas now, and there's no ways I'm not gonna, you know, pounce on that opportunity. So-

47:58 Speaker 2 At this point, you're already out of school?

48:00 Speaker 1 No, I'm in school still. This is grade nine.

48:03 Speaker 2 Okay.

48:04 Speaker 1 Uh, yeah, I was sixteen. It's grade nine. Um, which is, yeah, ninth grade. Um, and I offer five of my friends, my mates from high school, "Come with me. My sister lives in Cape Town. We'll go have a jol." Jol is South African for, like, a, a good time.

48:23 Speaker 2 Right.

48:24 Speaker 1 Um, and we went, and yeah, just one night out, we, we met.

48:32 Speaker 2 One night out, you met, you met this girl from Cape Town?

48:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Turns out we had actually... Well, she'd actually, um, seen me at shul on Friday night. Check this. Because her dad was the chairman of the shul who hired my sister and brother-in-law-

48:52 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

48:52 Speaker 1 -to be the rav, rav-

48:53 Speaker 2 So she had come to shul by way of-

48:55 Speaker 1 So she, she would go to shul. Yeah. The fa-- They weren't religious, the family.

48:58 Speaker 2 South Africans go to shul on Friday night.

49:00 Speaker 1 But yeah, that's a traditional thing, Friday night to go to shul.

49:02 Speaker 2 Right.

49:03 Speaker 1 And unbeknownst to me, she had already seen me, and actually, I was wearing this hat.

49:10 Speaker 2 The same-

49:10 Speaker 1 She went... The same hat. This is Mazeda Shimon's hat.

49:13 Speaker 2 Oh.

49:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. She went to my sister, "Sarah, the rebbetzin," and she saw like, "Who's... Oh, who's that religious boy in the hat?"

49:20 Speaker 2 Right.

49:21 Speaker 1 She's like, "Yeah, who's this guy?" And she was like, "That's my brother." And she was so embarrassed. She like, yeah, she didn't follow up. But the next night, it was a Saturday night or Sunday night, I think, whatever that we met at her underage party. And, um, she was like, "Yeah, I saw you." And that was it.

49:44 Speaker 2 You clicked.

49:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, like that. The rest is history.

49:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

49:49 Speaker 1 We, we, we didn't even party that night. We just went out to the back to the... It was like in a balls club, and we just sat on the grass chatting for like two hours.

49:59 Speaker 2 Were, were you, were, were you looking for a girl at the time? Was that something you felt-

50:04 Speaker 1 I was looking for a good time. I wasn't looking for a five-year relationship.

50:07 Speaker 2 You were not?

50:08 Speaker 1 No. But hey, I was a sixteen-year-old-

50:16 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

50:16 Speaker 1 ... um, boy who was looking to taste the world and see what it had to offer, so I'll take it. And, uh, yeah. Anyhow, she... I d- this is part of the crazy story, is that she was nothing... I don't-- I mean, I may have, like, triggered it, but she always wanted to be, like, frum. So she says. And, um-

50:44 Speaker 2 Before she met you?

50:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, she, like she would dress up in, like, grade eight or, uh, in or at eight years old, she was dressing up as, like, a rebbetzin.

50:52 Speaker 2 Right.

50:54 Speaker 1 And I guess when she met me, maybe it sort of became, like, wow, this is a possibility.

51:01 Speaker 2 Why was she, why was she thinking to become frum after meeting you?

51:05 Speaker 1 N-- Well, that was always her thing, but I think... I don't know. To put it this way, I did not encourage it whatsoever. On the contrary, I dissuaded her as much as I could. I was like, "You do not want to do that."

51:18 Speaker 2 You do not want to become frum.

51:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. To, uh, she gets all the credit.

51:23 Speaker 2 She was-- So she wasn't becoming frum for you at this point, or she didn't-

51:26 Speaker 1 No

51:26 Speaker 2 ... think she was?

51:28 Speaker 1 I don't know what she thought. I didn't think she was because I, I made it very clear, like, I'm not, and I have no intention on being.

51:36 Speaker 2 Hmm.

51:37 Speaker 1 So she gets all the credit. People think, like, especially her friends or her family think that, like, she became religious for me, but it's not true.

51:46 Speaker 2 So-

51:46 Speaker 1 It was for, it was for her

51:48 Speaker 2 Did that-

51:48 Speaker 1 Against my wishes.

51:50 Speaker 2 So what were you thinking at that point?

51:52 Speaker 1 It wasn't like a... It wasn't a fast and overnight process. So, like, I, I tolerated it, you know?

52:02 Speaker 2 Right.

52:03 Speaker 1 And I was also like, "Whatever, it's a phase." Or like, I was like, "You do you." Just, just having a girlfriend was enough for me, you know?

52:10 Speaker 2 Right.

52:10 Speaker 1 I didn't...

52:13 Speaker 2 Right.

52:15 Speaker 1 And, and ironically, my, my, uh, my mother, who initially, like, was so obviously against this idea-

52:27 Speaker 2 Of having a girlfriend?

52:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. Ended up seeing her as almost like an ally to try and get me to become frum because they were, like, on Team getting Nissim frum.

52:42 Speaker 2 And did your-- Did, did, did this-

52:43 Speaker 1 So eventually my mother-

52:45 Speaker 2 Did this... Yeah, s-

52:46 Speaker 1 Had a relationship with her, and it was like, yeah.

52:50 Speaker 2 You like that?

52:51 Speaker 1 I get a kick out of that because it just makes no sense.

52:56 Speaker 2 Did, did, did, did-

52:57 Speaker 1 I mean, it makes so much sense, but-

52:58 Speaker 2 Did, did, did your then girlfriend, like, did she get on this team, or she just found herself on it?

53:03 Speaker 1 She gave me... She, you know, she, like, she told me, like, "Your mom said this to me."

53:08 Speaker 2 Right.

53:09 Speaker 1 And I was-- Sh-she wasn't hiding the fact that she wanted me to be religious.

53:14 Speaker 2 So she wanted to be religious with you, essentially.

53:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:18 Speaker 2 She liked you.

53:19 Speaker 1 I was on the way out. She was on the way in. We met at the middle. I was like, "No, thank you." And she kept going up, and I kept going down.

53:26 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, a boutique video production company servicing the Chabad and Jewish community. Since opening ten years ago, Yuvala Media has pushed the boundaries of artistic and thoughtful storytelling in the community, with an insistence on there always being a memorable story as well as a beautiful and striking visual image that we believe is second to none. Over the years, we have worked with Chabad organizations around the country, as well as large organizations like Bonial, Torah Umassara, and Athalathon, guided by the belief that your story is absolutely worth telling with depth and creativity. If you are looking to tell your story with a video, please reach out to us at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that is hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found in the show notes. And now, back to the podcast. So, so you, you, you're in this, you're in this strange predicament where you meet this girl clearly you like. She likes you.

54:32 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

54:33 Speaker 2 Um, you're also describing it as, like, on some level, just like a rebellious teenage fling.

54:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

54:46 Speaker 2 And somehow, somehow it, it, it ends up becoming the catalyst for, like, I don't know the words to undo your rebelliousness, but to, like, send it off in a almost, like, the least expected direction.

55:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. In, in a, in a long way to, like, bring me home.

55:10 Speaker 2 But yeah, but, but you're saying that now, but at the-

55:12 Speaker 1 I'm, I'm saying that now, yeah, with the clarity of hindsight.

55:14 Speaker 2 But at the time, at the time, I mean, that's gotta be so confusing.

55:23 Speaker 1 What?

55:24 Speaker 2 What's gotta be confusing? Like, is, is this relationship an act of defiance or an act of ...

55:32 Speaker 1 No, it was very-- It wasn't even defiance. Uh, yeah, it was an act. It started off a-as that. It was... The whole thing was not defiance. It was just like, "Ugh."

55:47 Speaker 2 Right.

55:50 Speaker 1 I'm gonna live. You know? I'm gonna...

55:53 Speaker 2 Right. But, but-

55:54 Speaker 1 But yeah

55:54 Speaker 2 ... but, but it's, it's, it's also interesting to me that once you become, like-

56:01 Speaker 1 It took a long time. I mean, we-

56:02 Speaker 2 You're, you're ready-

56:03 Speaker 1 ... we dated, we dated for five years, you know?

56:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're ready to, you're ready to piss off your parents, but you're- ... religiosity. Like, because you just said, like, "Look, I would love to make you happy-

56:15 Speaker 1 Honestly-

56:15 Speaker 2 "... but I could-- I can't-- I have to live this way."

56:17 Speaker 1 Honestly, it wasn't intentional. Like, it wasn't malicious.

56:20 Speaker 2 No, no, no.

56:21 Speaker 1 It was-

56:21 Speaker 2 But I have to live this way and-

56:23 Speaker 1 For me.

56:23 Speaker 2 Yes. And I, and I, I know it's hurting you, but I have no choice.

56:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:29 Speaker 2 I would think in a way that you would say the same thing to this girl that you just met.

56:34 Speaker 1 That?

56:35 Speaker 2 That, "I like you. I would love to spend more time with you, but if you want me to be religious..."

56:42 Speaker 1 Oh, she wasn't pushy at all.

56:44 Speaker 2 She wasn't pushy?

56:44 Speaker 1 Like, she was very smart. She was playing the long game.

56:48 Speaker 2 So-

56:49 Speaker 1 She didn't push me at all to do any of that.

56:52 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

56:53 Speaker 1 So, okay, so maybe you have the, the wrong picture.

56:56 Speaker 2 No, I, I-

56:57 Speaker 1 Not at all. I mean, it took her years to, you know, once in a while, you know, she took on this thing, and she took on that thing, and then she went on like a Bnei Akiva program for three months, and-

57:07 Speaker 2 Mm.

57:08 Speaker 1 And then eventually she, you know... And by that time already, I was like-- One day, my dad, I remember we were walking on Camps Bay Beach, you know. And so, I was always, like, going down to Cape Town, and I was-- The excuse I was, gave my parents like, "I need to, you know, I need to go to be with the ocean and the mountains, and it's good for me," and all this nonsense.

57:35 Speaker 2 Why didn't you say you wanted to be with your sister? They would have been like, "Oh, yeah."

57:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. "I wanna go help my sisters." I had two sisters there, you know.

57:39 Speaker 2 Okay.

57:40 Speaker 1 Uh, on Schlichas.

57:41 Speaker 2 Right.

57:42 Speaker 1 And they were like, "Yeah, sure. Amazing. Go help." And when, like, I made this big revelation in the, in the office, in my dad's study, you know, "You don't have to worry about me for a Shidduch 'cause I'm never gonna marry." And they're like, "Oh, really? Who?" And I was like, "Well, you know Michael, the chairman of Ga-- Yeah, his daughter." And they were like, "Oh my God. That's why he's been going down all this time." They looked at each other like, "We've been fooled."

58:10 Speaker 2 Your sisters didn't know about this either?

58:13 Speaker 1 Uh, they knew.

58:14 Speaker 2 They-

58:14 Speaker 1 But not-- I mean, they knew, yeah. A lot of people knew, but they weren't gonna-

58:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

58:22 Speaker 1 You know.

58:25 Speaker 2 So you're, so you're in this-- So at the time, at the time, you're-- So you're saying that you, you didn't feel like you saw this bringing you back?

58:36 Speaker 1 Not at all.

58:37 Speaker 2 Not at all.

58:37 Speaker 1 This was like my ticket out, dude.

58:39 Speaker 2 This was your ticket out?

58:39 Speaker 1 It was my ticket out.

58:40 Speaker 2 And you were insisting to her that, "We're staying out. That's what we're doing."

58:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

58:45 Speaker 2 At least, at least you're staying-

58:46 Speaker 1 She wanted to put on skirts-

58:47 Speaker 2 You're staying out.

58:47 Speaker 1 And she wanted to, like, be all... Yeah, I was like, "No."

58:50 Speaker 2 Not with me.

58:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:51 Speaker 2 Not with me.

58:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:54 Speaker 2 So what changes?

58:58 Speaker 1 So-

58:58 Speaker 2 I mean, just for people who are maybe losing track of the story at this point, we're talking about the girl that you end up marrying and going on Schlichas with. I just wanna give people-

59:05 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:05 Speaker 2 Like, 'cause the story is kind of bouncing around a little bit, but that's-

59:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

59:09 Speaker 2 But at the... Right.

59:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Thank God.

59:13 Speaker 2 S-s-so you, so you-

59:16 Speaker 1 I was walking-- We were walking on the beach one day. I didn't have a ph-- Again, like, I was quite a-- I didn't have a phone. I didn't have a cell phone. I didn't have a license. Like, I was very much so dependent on her.

59:26 Speaker 2 A free spirit.

59:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, she would send me-- I didn't have money. I didn't have nothing. Like, she would send me tickets, you know, to come to Cape Town.

59:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:35 Speaker 1 So, yeah. Um, she'd baby, you know, she would babysit and, like, earn money and send me tickets to come and... 'Cause I, I didn't have anything. Um, anyhow, one of my trips down there, I was on the beach, and I think my dad called her cell phone because I didn't have a phone. And this was, like, already I'm a couple months out of school, just doing nothing, chilling. I was actually working in construction for her dad, who had a construction company. Um, and he's like, "You've really got to-- Nissan, you've really got to do something with your life."

1:00:11 Speaker 2 Who said this?

1:00:12 Speaker 1 My dad.

1:00:13 Speaker 2 He called you on her cell phone?

1:00:15 Speaker 1 Well, I didn't have a phone.