Ep. 36 // "Making the Past Present" w/ Rabbi Dr. Shmary Brownstein

00:00 Speaker 1 The question is, are we or should we be looking to the past as a place to somehow get back to? And it's not a past. When the Rebbe speaks, you know, the, uh, the words of the Alter Rebbe, it's, it's the Alter Rebbe now. This is the Alter Rebbe in twenty twenty-four or in nineteen fifty. It's making that past present.

00:30 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I am here with Rabbi Dr. Shmary Brownstein. Correct? Um, Shliach in Northern California, Davis. Davis, California. And, uh, we are here on Gimmel Tammuz, Lag BaOmer, zechuso yum zakai. Um, and, uh, I'm sure this will be a very interesting and meaningful conversation for us both, and I, I'm looking forward to it, and thank you for taking the time. Um, trying to remember exactly how the, the origins of this pa- of this particular conversation. It does go back in a certain way to about, uh, what is it now? Over twenty years. Uh, it's back to the Yeshivas Chardal Shelumim in Crown Heights, which was a one-year, uh, short-lived experiment, but which I was a part of, and you were part of for a period of time. The whole time?

01:54 Speaker 1 No, I was at the

01:55 Speaker 2 And-

01:55 Speaker 1 ... earlier. I was there for-

01:56 Speaker 2 Tod Girsa or something? Or sh-

01:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

01:58 Speaker 2 Girsa in the afternoon.

01:59 Speaker 1 Afternoon.

01:59 Speaker 2 But I certainly do remember you from there. And then closer to, closer to now, a few people recommended that I get in touch with you, and, um, they told me that here's someone who is working on and just completed a PhD dissertation on Vasili Gani. And they had me at Vasili Gani. Not at the PhD dissertation, but at Vasili Gani. Vasili Gani is, is a favorite of mine. So, you know, I think, I think we can start from there. You know, um, or maybe we start a little bit earlier. I just wanna make sure we don't get sidetracked, um, because, uh, the recent theme has been we, we've gotten stuck in everybody's childhood and young- ... teenage years. And we wanna make sure-

02:49 Speaker 1 It's strong that's come up

02:49 Speaker 2 ... we, we, we dedicate this conversation to, uh, to, to the Vasili Gani. But, uh, we do... I think it does help to know where you're from, and I'm sure that'll help inform the later conversation about Vasili Gani. So why don't you tell us a little bit who you are, where you grow up, where you grew up, and, uh, yeah, how we ended up here.

03:12 Speaker 1 So I was, uh, born in Buffalo, New York.

03:16 Speaker 2 Okay.

03:17 Speaker 1 And, uh, we lived there till I was seven. My parents are Baal Teshuva, who were Naskidov in, in, uh, university, um, at Buffalo.

03:28 Speaker 2 Rabbi Gurari.

03:29 Speaker 1 Rabbi Gurari, Rabbi Greenberg. Um, Rabbi Gurari made the shidduch.

03:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

03:37 Speaker 1 Um, and yeah, uh, when I was seven, seven years old, there was... Whatever. The, you know, there, there was a chinuch, there was an parnasa.

03:53 Speaker 2 Right.

03:53 Speaker 1 They were looking elsewhere, and, um, I understand that, uh, Israel was an option also. My, my understanding is-

04:04 Speaker 2 Probably better if you talk a little bit into the phone, into the microphone.

04:08 Speaker 1 My, my understanding is that, uh, they wrote to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe said to do what my mother wants, basically. So, um, I'm very thankful that they chose to move to, uh, to Crown Heights. Um, so yeah. So when I... So from that point forward through the, uh, elementary school years, I was in, uh, Lubavitch Yeshiva, growing up, you know, with the rallies and the-

04:42 Speaker 2 So which year was this that you moved to Crown Heights?

04:44 Speaker 1 They moved to Crown Heights, um, just before Lag BaOmer of five hundred and seventy-three, nineteen eighty-three.

04:51 Speaker 2 Hmm. So a couple years into the Tzemach Shem, basically.

04:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Um, my, my first-

05:01 Speaker 2 And you were, you said seven, eight years old.

05:03 Speaker 1 I was seven, yeah. Yeah.

05:05 Speaker 2 Okay.

05:08 Speaker 1 My, my, my first, uh, memory with a date of being with the Rebbe was at Lag BaOmer of that year.

05:14 Speaker 2 Of five hundred and seventy-three.

05:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, and, uh-

05:23 Speaker 2 How did Crown Heights strike you? Do you remember that?

05:30 Speaker 1 I don't know if I could speak to Cr- Crown Heights necessarily itself, um, but more to my social experience in Yeshiva.

05:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

05:43 Speaker 1 Um, definitely was an immigrant experience.

05:46 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:52 Speaker 1 In a certain sense, I think it wasn't till, probably till, uh, high school, Mesivta, that I felt completely integrated

06:06 Speaker 2 This is because, this is because, this is because you're not from Crown Heights, this is because your parents are Baale Teshuva?

06:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, both.

06:12 Speaker 2 Both.

06:12 Speaker 1 Both. So we, you know, we didn't have any family. It wasn't like I had cousins here or whatever it was that, uh, um...

06:23 Speaker 2 You know, I, I mean, I, I guess, I guess the question I would ask, the question I would ask about Crown Heights, I mean, in, in a way, what's the point of finding out what a place was like 40 years ago? Um, but I think the pertinent question, or at least the interesting question for me is, the interesting question for me is, you know, there's... When we look back at Crown Heights, it always is dominated, rightfully so, by the Rebbe's presence. So you know, just even just now, for example, I asked you when you moved to Crown Heights, right away we went to Lag BaOmer 57Gimel because that's the moment you remember the Rebbe. But obviously, when you moved to Crown Heights, the first thing that you did, I imagine, was unpack your boxes-

07:13 Speaker 1 Right

07:13 Speaker 2 ... and probably find some of your toys that you had brought from Buffalo, and wander the streets or go for pizza with your family because you just moved in.

07:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean-

07:23 Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying? Like that's what happened first. But because we collapse history into moments, it becomes dominated. So what was, what was Crown Heights like? Or was it completely dominated by the going-ons in 770?

07:41 Speaker 1 Um, I, I, I don't think it would be right to say that, you know... I, I just can talk from my perspective as a-

07:50 Speaker 2 Right

07:50 Speaker 1 ... as a little kid. Um, it, you know, in some sense, yes, life was dominated by, by the Rebbe's presence. Um, like the, the buzz, the, the talk, we spoke about the Shabbos table, whatever, invariably had to do with what the Rebbe had said most recently, um, or, you know, the issues. The, uh, the, the blowup with, with Satmar was right around then, when, when Dalet, Gimel Am Dalet, um, which was a big, you know, a big thing in Lubavitch at the time. Um, there was a Sorom case a couple years later. Like those were the, the, the issues-

08:47 Speaker 2 Right

08:47 Speaker 1 ... at least from what I could see that, you know. Um, but f- you know, for me, for the most part, uh, most of my time was taken up with school, going to school.

09:00 Speaker 2 Right.

09:01 Speaker 1 Um, my friends.

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09:48 Speaker 1 In our-

09:48 Speaker 2 Right. Because, because earlier off, off camera, you were telling me that, uh, this kind of follows a theme from a recent conversation, that at some point you also decided like, uh, like Peretz Klein had discussed, you also decided in the heyday of Nun Alef or Tosh Nun Nun Alef you decided to leave Crown Heights.

10:09 Speaker 1 Right.

10:10 Speaker 2 So obviously, there is a bit of a... There's a, there, there, there's two things going on here. There's Crown Heights, and then there's the Rebbe's court, I imagine.

10:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:25 Speaker 2 Tell us, tell that story.

10:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:26 Speaker 2 What, what, what, what drove you to leave? What drove you to leave Crown Heights?

10:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I, I didn't... Don't think I, I saw it really as leaving Crown Heights.

10:37 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:38 Speaker 1 It was leaving yeshiva. I mean, leaving Lubavitch yeshiva, where I had been going until then, and it was leaving home.

10:47 Speaker 2 Oh, you wanted to leave home. You wanted to be your own person.

10:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was a way of spreading my wings and, um...

10:57 Speaker 2 And you decided to go to Brurwah.

10:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. My, my friend was going and-

11:02 Speaker 2 Also, there were a few people going to Brurwah at the time.

11:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. I actually had, uh, several classmates that, uh, that ended up there. Yeah.

11:08 Speaker 2 In Tosh Nun Alef?

11:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

11:10 Speaker 2 And what was that like, getting to Brurwah in Tosh Nun Alef?

11:14 Speaker 1 So you, you, you, you asked in the context of, you know, the way that the Rebbe was talking about Mashiach. But, um, actually, I think in my mind, what I was giving up most was that, and this might, this might also go a little bit to the, uh, to the kind of coming in as an outsider, that what I wanted was a good place at Farbrengen.

11:43 Speaker 2 In 770?

11:44 Speaker 1 In 770. Meaning not in the bleachers.

11:48 Speaker 2 How old are you at this time?

11:49 Speaker 1 So I was 14.

11:52 Speaker 2 Right. And at that age already, people had their places?

11:55 Speaker 1 I... No. Well, I started going to Farbrengen, I think regularly, like every week. Um, pr- So sometime after bar mitzvah.

12:12 Speaker 2 Okay. Did, did, did those sicha, did you understand those sichas?

12:17 Speaker 1 I couldn't hear anything.

12:18 Speaker 2 You couldn't hear anything?

12:18 Speaker 1 No.

12:20 Speaker 2 So you were standing there to see the Rebbe, you were standing there hoping to hear something-

12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:23 Speaker 2 ... standing to be part of the crowd?

12:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was standing to, to, to be there, and also I was hoping that a time I'd be able to inch my way closer to get to a, a place where I could hear.

12:34 Speaker 2 So you wanted a better place, what's that... going to Boro Park?

12:38 Speaker 1 Going to Boro Park meant that any kind of makom kavua that I might get for myself. I, I had, I had a shtikel place. I couldn't hear anything, but I, but I could see reasonably well, and, uh, whatever-

12:52 Speaker 2 The reason you couldn't hear is because there was no microphone, right?

12:54 Speaker 1 There was no microphone. You hear the air conditioning. Yeah, it was, it was too far. But the, the one thing that I, that I could hear was, uh, when the Rebbe started the, uh, Rebbe

13:11 Speaker 2 You could hear the, the Re- Rebbe-

13:14 Speaker 1 Rebbe said, "Ai, ai, ai, ai, ai," the, the end of the freirens Rebbe would start the-

13:19 Speaker 2 Right

13:19 Speaker 1 ... the niggun and, um-

13:21 Speaker 2 At the end of the freiren?

13:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. And for a while, I didn't even realize it was the Rebbe, but...

13:26 Speaker 2 Oh, you heard him singing? That's all you heard?

13:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, 'cause that the Rebbe was singing rather than talking. You know, there, there were some occasions when the Rebbe would speak with greater, uh, passion, and then you can hear, you could hear the Rebbe's voice a little bit. But I couldn't hear, really make out what the Rebbe was saying.

13:43 Speaker 2 So you were concerned that you would lose a makom kavua by going to Boro Park?

13:47 Speaker 1 So what I was giving up by going to, to Boro Park was that, uh, the trajectory of getting a good spot, uh, you know, I, I was not gonna be there for most weeks.

13:58 Speaker 2 Right. So that was, that was an actual concern of yours?

14:04 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say that I lost any sleep over it.

14:07 Speaker 2 Right.

14:07 Speaker 1 But it was a, an understanding, an internal understanding that that, that was-

14:11 Speaker 2 A cost

14:12 Speaker 1 ... yeah, that was something I was giving up.

14:14 Speaker 2 And nevertheless, you chose to go to Boro Park.

14:16 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, you know, planning to, uh, stay in Boro Park forever. I was going there because Boro Park was like, you know, the top place to go.

14:28 Speaker 2 It was?

14:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I mean, I don't know if it was the top place to go, but it certainly, you know, it was up there.

14:34 Speaker 2 So it was a thing for bochurim and crapites to pick themselves up and go to Boro Park?

14:41 Speaker 1 There were those that went. I wouldn't say it was a thing for bochurim to go. There was... But, you know, it was known that-

14:46 Speaker 2 I'm just trying to understand. I'm not so much trying to understand exactly what you were thinking as a 14-year-old or whatever it was. I'm trying to understand what-- how does that jive with the, with the, with the narrative that in those days, that in those day... How does, how does that jive with the narrative that, that, um, like, everybody wanted to be around the Rebbe? Everybody wanted to be, everybody wanted to be there. How, how does that go together?

15:28 Speaker 1 The, the, the reality was that you weren't around the Rebbe all the time.

15:36 Speaker 2 Right.

15:36 Speaker 1 Most of the time, you were in yeshiva or at home, or visiting your relatives or whatever it is that, that you're doing, going to camp. Um, for the most part, I mean, there were, by that time already the Rebbe was saying, giving, you know, giving sichas quite regularly. But usually-

16:04 Speaker 2 Giving out kontrasim

16:05 Speaker 1 ... that started in earnest really after I, I left.

16:09 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:10 Speaker 1 So I got like, I think like three, um... I think I got like three, three, uh, chalukas of, of the Rebbe, and, uh, most, most of the stuff from the 70s, I didn't get, four maybe. Um-

16:28 Speaker 2 Is that something you regret in hindsight?

16:31 Speaker 1 No. No. I mean, it, it would have been nice to, to have all those kontrasim, but I... You know, I, I feel like I, I gained a tremendous amount by the time that I spent in Boro Park, so I... In a sense, uh, perhaps would not have appreciated in the same way what I had had I not gone.

17:02 Speaker 2 Right.

17:03 Speaker 1 So to kind of, uh, tie up the, the, the end of that thought, most of your time is not spent around the Rebbe. In Boro Park, you were twenty-four seven in this like, you know, sauna-

17:19 Speaker 2 Right

17:20 Speaker 1 ... of-

17:21 Speaker 2 Of yeshiva

17:21 Speaker 1 ... of chassidis. In a sense, even though, I don't know if we can say that there were, you know, there were all these alter Rebbe chassidim, but it had that, that sense. I like to say that like the ghost of Reb Nissan still haunted the, uh, the halls of Boro Park.

17:39 Speaker 2 Oh, there, there'll be a lot of people who will insist that's what was going on, you know, 'cause you left, you left 770, so it must have been something like Reb Nissan who's schlepping you away. Right? I mean, I, I-

17:51 Speaker 1 It's coming from the shtetl.

17:52 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I don't believe... I'm saying, I, I'm saying-

17:56 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

17:56 Speaker 2 ... okay. May- maybe there's a part of me that feels that, uh, not that I'm aware of, not that I-- not that resonates with me, but I mean, it, it makes a lot of sense what you're saying to me, and I think in, in many ways it's a very relevant conversation to It's a very relevant idea to a conversation that we're having on Gimel Tamuz because in many ways, to me, it lies at the heart... I- is it, it lies at the foundation of, of, of Lubavitch identity today. You know, is, is your identity one that revolves around the Rebbe's presence, physical presence, right? But like you're saying, sometimes when you, when, when you make that the anchor and you cannot, you cannot, you cannot be, you cannot be around him all the time for many reasons, right? You c- you kind of put yourself in a cor- in a pickle or in a corner where, you know, this is, this is, this is how you're gonna anchor your identity, but you're not... In many ways, it's not dependent on you, it's... You see what I'm saying? Where it like-

19:14 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not the same as, uh, as after Gimel Tamuz. Because-

19:19 Speaker 2 Why not? What... Why not?

19:20 Speaker 1 Because 100% our, you know, orientation was all around what's going on in 770.

19:31 Speaker 2 You're saying in the sense of being up to date and there being something going on-

19:35 Speaker 1 Yeah

19:35 Speaker 2 ... this month and this week?

19:36 Speaker 1 What, what, what, what came in o- on the fax machine, the, uh, you know, the rad, the taxi, or the latest, the s- the sicha.

19:43 Speaker 2 Okay. I underst- I understand

19:44 Speaker 1 The Vayescha'enu.

19:45 Speaker 2 I understand.

19:46 Speaker 1 You know? Uh, I, I don't think I was even aware that there was such a thing c- called Vayescha'enu until I went to Benoit.

19:53 Speaker 2 I understand, but if a, if a bachur goes to yeshiva today, and he finds himself immersed completely in, in the world of chassidis and learning, I understand it's not the same as hearing, you know, as Rebbe's talking about this, Rebbe's talking about that, and dealing with the last sicha and that, that sense of presence-

20:13 Speaker 1 And the, and the hookups. I mean-

20:14 Speaker 2 Yeah

20:14 Speaker 1 ... Rebbe's hoped in the week.

20:16 Speaker 2 Yeah, I understand. But, but the, that, that question of, that question of, you know, physical intimacy of, you know, or physical presence versus, versus something that is, that is more, I would s- I would think about you. Like what are you immersed in, right? Like what, what, I, I, yeah.

20:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, in other words, you could, you could theoretically, you know, daven with the Rebbe every day and, and not really be that plugged in, let's say, to-

20:57 Speaker 2 Right, because even if you're by-

20:58 Speaker 1 The Rebbe's, you know

20:58 Speaker 2 ... if you're, if even if you're by the Rebbe's davening, you're there three times a day. It's a, it's a part of the day, right?

21:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:04 Speaker 2 The, the, the, there's... It's not just picking on like... Okay, so let's say you can be with the Rebbe 50% of the day or 60% of the day. Fundamentally, at some point, you cannot be... When, when you, when you at, when, when you make it about another person, there's always going to be a limit, right? I mean, you can be married and be in a loving marriage, but you cannot make your identity all about your spouse because there's a limit, right? You, you, you bec- you, you become a problem if you have nothing to yourself.

21:36 Speaker 1 That's true. That's true. At the same time, that's, that's a, a, a good metaphor because when you are on a trip, like I am now, I mean-

21:47 Speaker 2 Right

21:47 Speaker 1 ... the fact that I'm not physically with my wife, um, you know, I have that home somewhere.

21:55 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

21:56 Speaker 1 I, I do have that, that tether.

21:57 Speaker 2 Right.

21:57 Speaker 1 So it's not, you know... I, I'm, I, I'm not sure that the, that the, that the physical presence... Put it this way, somebody that was around 770 like all the time was basically looked at as a lady care. He had nothing else to do.

22:25 Speaker 2 Really? Is that, is that how people saw it?

22:28 Speaker 1 For the most part, yeah.

22:29 Speaker 2 There's a lot of people hanging around 770 every time the Rebbe walks out, and every time-

22:33 Speaker 1 I mean, there were the bachurim obviously who were, who were learning.

22:36 Speaker 2 Right.

22:37 Speaker 1 Or supposed to be learning. But I'm saying fine, you know, that was their, that was-

22:41 Speaker 2 You're saying non-bachurim who were at 770?

22:42 Speaker 1 But so I'm saying if somebody... If a, if, if you're... Even, e- even bachurim, most bachurim weren't learning in 770, who was in 770? The, uh, even the Israelis weren't really in 770. They were in, uh, Cheder Teher, but whatever. You know, they were around for all the, the, the olot chillas and everything. But if you, uh, learned in Olot Teher, you weren't davening with the Rebbe bettehillah. You might go for a sicha. If you learned in, uh, Lubavitch Yeshiva, you certainly were not, you know, 'cause it was, uh, in Flatbush.

23:14 Speaker 2 Right.

23:14 Speaker 1 So, so, you know, many times you probably ended up... I mean, I wasn't in Misnagedes there, but, uh, you know, you, you wouldn't... You couldn't go in for every sicha. You'd listen to it on a hookup or something.

23:25 Speaker 2 Right.

23:26 Speaker 1 Um, but, but, you know, the, the Chassidisha bachur or whatever would be somebody who was up to date on everything that was going on, on everyth- you know, on, on the latest things that the Rebbe was kaching in or whatever it is.

23:44 Speaker 2 Right.

23:47 Speaker 1 So-

23:47 Speaker 2 But you didn't feel like you were losing that by going to Benoit?

23:49 Speaker 1 Absolutely not. I wasn't losing that at all. On the contrary, I think that in many ways I gained more of that. I became more-

23:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

23:58 Speaker 1 ... attuned-

23:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

23:59 Speaker 1 ... to, you know, to what the, what, what there was out there.

24:14 Speaker 2 Hmm.

24:22 Speaker 1 And possibly, you know, when I would come back for Pesach or Tishri, it was like, "And now's the time to like, be fully immersed." I mean, uh, you know, it's not telling any maskir. I wasn't at, you know... It's not like when I came back for Yom Tov, I made sure to be by every davening or whatever it was. I'm a human being. I slept in sometimes.

24:48 Speaker 2 Right.

24:49 Speaker 1 Um, but, you know, but it was like, "Now we get to be bachur." To be there, to watch, to, you know, to, to notice the, the small t'nuas and, uh-

25:04 Speaker 2 Describe that a little bit. What, what was... What exactly at the time was it feel... What were you-- What did you think you were accomplishing by... I mean, if I'm gonna be f- if I'm gonna be honest, I, I don't understand, uh, not that I, I don't, I mean, I, I, I simply just don't understand what people thought they were doing. Or like if you pick up what? If you pick up a knish, if you pick up, what are you picking up? There was davening, he's looking at a siddur's davening. What are you picking up precisely? Like, what did you think you were accomplishing by being there? And I don't mean this in any-

25:39 Speaker 1 Yeah

25:39 Speaker 2 ... kinda cynical, snarky way. I, I, I si- I simply don't understand it.

25:44 Speaker 1 The rabbi is, you know, the, the closest thing to God.

25:49 Speaker 2 Okay.

25:50 Speaker 1 The tzadik gedor odom.

25:52 Speaker 2 Right.

25:53 Speaker 1 And every movement of his is meaningful and is connected to something in the other mesoryenu.

25:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

26:00 Speaker 1 There's, you know, all kinds of stories about a little tenou of the rabbi that somehow had these cosmic effects.

26:09 Speaker 2 Right. But you're not understanding that at all.

26:12 Speaker 1 No. No. But, but you know, you, you wanna at least be aware. And I think, I think just in general there was a, there was a fascination with, with, with the rabbi and any tidbit about him. For example, um, the rabbi would wear his shoes, I'm not sure if it was both shoes, but at least one shoe where the back was bent down.

26:41 Speaker 2 Right.

26:41 Speaker 1 And he-

26:42 Speaker 2 Right

26:42 Speaker 1 ... kinda wore it like a slipper.

26:44 Speaker 2 Right.

26:45 Speaker 1 And he wore very thin socks.

26:47 Speaker 2 Right.

26:47 Speaker 1 Used to call them makushir socks, because the people that had to copy the rabbi-

26:53 Speaker 2 Right

26:53 Speaker 1 ... did all of the externals would make sure to have those kind of socks.

26:58 Speaker 2 The makushir socks.

26:58 Speaker 1 Which again was something of a, of, of a jab, right? If you're a primi, then you're learning the Hasidism. If you're a-

27:07 Speaker 2 There was that talk back in the time.

27:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

27:10 Speaker 2 It-

27:10 Speaker 1 If you're a chitz, then you have to make sure that your hat is pinched in the right way, and you're a-

27:13 Speaker 2 Oh, so those bochrim were, were mocked or it kind of jabbed at in those time.

27:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

27:19 Speaker 2 Interesting. Okay.

27:21 Speaker 1 And, um, sometimes the, the, the socks would kind of slip down. Um, you know, or I, I once, uh, remember seeing the, the little, the edge of a gartel coming out from the, the bottom of the rabbi's pants. The rabbi was wearing a gartel underneath his clothes, and you could see the, the, the edge of it coming out. Um, it's like, it's something about the rabbi. He's very, it's something pri- kind of inside what you're, what you're-

27:53 Speaker 2 So that's what I was about to ask you. Um, uh, and it very, very much leads into that. It feels almost like there was a craving for that personal connection that had alwa- that had been in, that had been there 40 years earlier or whatever with Yechidasin and like to really like, you know, like I know something about the rabbi. I've learned something about the rabbi. I've gotten to know him better, let's say. And like if I, you know, like something like that where like you just, the way you phrase it even, like there's something, there's something like about him that's like not obvious or not, no, maybe nobody else picked up on it, but I happen to notice it and not necessarily I can go brag about it to my friends, but I can feel like, oh, there's, like he opened, th- there's like a, a glimpse of something that I didn't see before. It almost-

28:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I don't see it so much as a, as a personal connection. In other words, it has nothing to do with me.

28:48 Speaker 2 Right.

28:48 Speaker 1 There was no like interaction over there. Um, it was just the-

28:53 Speaker 2 No, it's a craving for intimacy. It's a craving for something that's private, like you called it.

28:59 Speaker 1 I mean, the, did the rabbi feel distant? I di- I don't, I don't, you know, trying to remember how, how I thought then. I, no, I don't, I don't feel that. I don't feel that. I know, I know that the, that the, that the issue of does the rabbi know me, uh, is an issue that apparently was a perennial issue. Um, you know, that the bochum and the chafs felt that they didn't have-

29:29 Speaker 2 Didn't have-

29:29 Speaker 1 ... compared to the bochum and the yuds and the bochum and the lameds felt they didn't have compared to the bochum and the chafs.

29:34 Speaker 2 Right.

29:34 Speaker 1 Personally, I mean, I, I was, I was young. Chazai Nadal, I was not quite 16 yet. So it, it wasn't even really a, an issue for me. Like it didn't bother me.

29:46 Speaker 2 Uh-

29:47 Speaker 1 Does the rabbi know me? I, I, I mean, I-

29:49 Speaker 2 So then why you-

29:49 Speaker 1 I, I believe that the rabbi knows everything, so he knows me also.

29:53 Speaker 2 In a spiritual sense.

29:55 Speaker 1 Whatever.

29:56 Speaker 2 Right. I, it, it, it didn't, wasn't a problem that was occupying you.

30:00 Speaker 1 It didn't bother me. What, what I wanted was-

30:03 Speaker 2 So why did you care to see the gartel coming through the pants?

30:06 Speaker 1 'Cause, I, I wanted to, I wanted to know the rabbi. I wanted to see the rabbi and to watch him.

30:10 Speaker 2 And what are you, and what are you learning about the rabbi seeing a gartel coming through the-

30:13 Speaker 1 I mean, well, yeah, not learning anything. I mean, that's just-

30:16 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying

30:17 Speaker 1 ... that's part of who he is. I don't know. I mean, again, every-

30:22 Speaker 2 I mean, it just feels almost, if I'm gonna be crude, it feels like grasping for straws. Like-

30:28 Speaker 1 I don't think it's grasping for straws

30:29 Speaker 2 ... well, you, you, like how is-

30:30 Speaker 1 I think it's the opposite.

30:32 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

30:32 Speaker 1 I think it's, I think it's, this is somebody that, this is somebody that, that, that, that has tremendous significance for, for, you know, for me, uh, in general, and I wanna, I wanna know more. You know, when they printed the, um, the volume of Iggros Kodesh of the, the rabbi's letters with the Frieda grab-

31:03 Speaker 2 Right

31:04 Speaker 1 I'm sure, I mean, you know, you tell me what your, what your, uh, take on that was. But I think for a lot of people, that was like, it was, it was so, um, I don't know, like filled this, this, this craving in people to kind of know the Rebbe better, and...

31:27 Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I had that, I have that feeling more, or just personally with, with the Rebbe Shimon. Uh, yeah, there were a few letters there that were very, very interesting, that were, you know, were being circulated, and people were pointing out. The Rebbe Shimon certainly did that for me-

31:41 Speaker 1 Well, the Rebbe Shimon, yeah

31:42 Speaker 2 ... especially when I... I mean, I wasn't old, it wasn't that I was old enough when it was coming out to be excited about it. But later on in my life when I, you know, opened up the safer, especially when I started putting together the Rebbe Shimon that were written and dated certain times in Rebbe's journey escaping the Nazis and-

31:59 Speaker 1 Mm.

31:59 Speaker 2 You can put, like there was, there are some Rebbe Shimon that Rebbe's, Rebbe had. There were notes that Rebbe wrote preparing for Dvar Torah, giving in shuls. So you know what I'm talking about.

32:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

32:09 Speaker 2 So it says the year, and it says a place, and sometimes it even says a shul. And, you know, when you put the history together with the notes, and that's gonna th- lead us very well into the bus of the gang that we're gonna talk about. Yeah, that was like, okay, here is a person facing this in the world around him. I don't really know what it's like to live in that kind of time. I don't know what he's thinking, obviously, but it, it, it brings you into a space where, okay, uh, you know, there, there's, there's, yeah, there's a new angle. There's, there, there's a glimpse of something that you haven't seen before, and you never know where that, you never know what glimpse is going to or what new angle is going to actually change something for you. Yeah, you know, so I, I guess I understand that, but it, it almost feels to me like that is, that's not, that's not gra- that's like a window that's thrown open. Like a, a private letter that's published posthumously, right? Or Rebbe Shimon where Rebbe wrote this for himself or wrote it privately to the fiddler Rebbe, and he's, it's obviously a very open, a very private and personal thing that's, for whatever reason, decided to be published. Yeah, you're gonna learn a lot from that. But how Rebbe's wearing his socks, and, and I know it could sound like I'm being cynical. I'm not being cynical. You know, this is what happened. This

33:29 Speaker 2 is how people were. I assume that a lot of those people were intelligent people. I assume that you're an intelligent person, right? Like you're, you're sitting there, and like you spent a half hour, yet again, you're, you're, you're, you're pushing together with a lot of bachrim, right? It's, it's, it's a very uncomfortable kind of half hour, and what do you get out of it? You saw something about Rebbe's socks.

33:53 Speaker 1 Well, I don't, I don't think that's fair. You, you, you dive into the Rebbe-

33:57 Speaker 2 Oh, okay

33:57 Speaker 1 ... and you watch the Rebbe dive.

33:58 Speaker 2 Okay.

33:59 Speaker 1 Um, but beyond that, it, I mean, for me, and I think for, for many people, there was just a, a, a, a fascination with watching the Rebbe. It's like... And I, I think, I think at least in part that was because the Rebbe is this cosmic figure.

34:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:22 Speaker 1 You know? Where what he does like-

34:26 Speaker 2 Right

34:27 Speaker 1 ... affects the whole world, it affects the heavens. It's like you may not understand it, but you wanna at least-

34:37 Speaker 2 Mm

34:37 Speaker 1 ... be in, be in his presence and, and, and, and watch somebody, you know, have that, have that effect. And maybe, you know, maybe you'll find out what it means, and maybe not. But, uh...

34:52 Speaker 2 Um, basically you're saying you're seeing something here that you cannot see anywhere else, right? There's something-

34:59 Speaker 1 Yeah

34:59 Speaker 2 ... there's something, there's something tremendously unique and, and I don't know the words, historic. I don't know if you're thinking in those terms-

35:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

35:07 Speaker 2 ... but tremendously unique taking place here.

35:09 Speaker 1 Mm, something, yeah. I think, I think historic is, is a good word. I, I mean, I wouldn't say that I, you know, necessarily thought-

35:15 Speaker 2 Those terms, right

35:15 Speaker 1 ... in those terms, but I think that that does give so- some explanation of, um, what the, you know, what the fascination was. I, I have found that-

35:30 Speaker 2 Look, look, looking, looking back, looking back, when you see videos of, of so many people spending so much time, I mean, 'cause you think about it, the amount of hours, if you, if you multiply it, that you have 1,000 bachrim spending a half hour, that's 500 hours. It piles up. You're talking about tens and tens of thousands of hours, hundreds of thousands of hours a year spent just being able to catch a glimpse of the Rebbe's, of the Rebbe Sanhoga. And yeah, I understand davening, okay, you're, you're davening with the Rebbe, there's a certain feeling. There could be a feeling of, of remozay, I imagine, of being picked up. You're at the Rebbe's minyan, but there are people also watching the Rebbe walk into the car, walk out of the car, um, you know, the different-

36:12 Speaker 1 Yeah

36:12 Speaker 2 ... kind of things that you're not at... There's hundreds of... When you look back at it, do you say like, "What were we doing?"

36:21 Speaker 1 Look, the, the, he... As you're talking, it, I, I think, I, I think I have a, a way to, to articulate it. We, we have a concept of tzinus ha'tzadik, right?

36:33 Speaker 2 Right.

36:33 Speaker 1 The tzinus ha'tzadik is something that is of utmost importance. It's a yom yom. It's as a parallel shelo yeshach lehad or something like that.

36:41 Speaker 2 Shpal zeyde with the basatav.

36:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

36:43 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:44 Speaker 1 It, even the tzinus, even the most slightest tzinus ha'tzadik is... And the Rebbe was Hasidus come to life. All those things that we learn about in theory, he embodies it. It's, it's happening in him. So you wanna, you wanna, you know, you, you wanna be there if you could. You wanna, you wanna, you wanna see that

37:16 Speaker 2 I, I, I guess the question I'm asking, if, uh, put it all on the table, I mean, sometimes the way to test out a g- to test out an idea is to, is to push it to the extreme. So let's say you have a choice, because there's only... You have a certain amount of time, and you, if you're doing one thing, we kind of have enough beta chasanas. You're here, you're not there. You're there, you're not here, right? So you have a h- you have a block of time. You could watch what the Rebbe is doing, or you could, let's say, learn chassidus, right? And by learning chassidus, I don't mean learning chassidus to like, to be better than the other guy. Learn chassidus like, like a liba de navshe, like 'cause you, 'cause you're trying to understand it better, right? Not trying to be holier than the people who aren't doing it, just learning it, eh. You're trying to understand it and trying to internalize it. Now, you c- let's say in an extreme case, okay, so the, the immediate, the, the, the regular case would be you learn chassidus part of the day for a few hours a day, then when the Rebbe's walking in se- in, uh, out of 770, you spend that time watching the Rebbe. You have a mix.

38:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

38:25 Speaker 2 But let's push it to the extreme, where you're only learning chassidus or you're only watching the Rebbe, right?

38:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

38:35 Speaker 2 If you're only learning chassidus, like, like which... Out of which option do you think, like what... You see what I'm saying? When, when you, when you're only watching the Rebbe, like when you push it to the extreme, like what, what are you, what are you getting out of it?

38:50 Speaker 1 Right. But I think that that's, that that's, uh-

38:52 Speaker 2 It's an unfair-

38:54 Speaker 1 Well, it, it's unrealistic

38:56 Speaker 2 No, because m- my point is that people spent a lot of time doing this, a lot of time. Obviously not all their time, but they spent a lot of time-

39:03 Speaker 1 No, because most of the time the Rebbe was not out.

39:05 Speaker 2 Right.

39:06 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was only out for, for, for limited...

39:09 Speaker 2 Interesting.

39:09 Speaker 1 On a, on an average day, let's say in Tosh Anun-

39:12 Speaker 2 Right

39:13 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe came out to daven Shacharis.

39:16 Speaker 2 Right.

39:16 Speaker 1 The Rebbe came out to daven Mincha Maariv, or, or Mincha, and then Maariv depends if he went to oil or whatever it is.

39:23 Speaker 2 Right.

39:24 Speaker 1 Most of the day, the Rebbe was in his room-

39:25 Speaker 2 Right

39:26 Speaker 1 ... or he was at the oil.

39:27 Speaker 2 Right.

39:29 Speaker 1 So you weren't seeing the Rebbe all the time. It was if the Rebbe spoke a sicha, a little longer. If the Rebbe gave dollars, a little longer.

39:37 Speaker 2 Right.

39:38 Speaker 1 And, uh, and the Rebbe came out for Maariv, you know, would, would be when, you know, when Seder was over. So it wasn't on the chashmun of storm. And if you're not gonna be there then, then you're missing that, that moment. If something happens, you missed it. It's not like-

39:58 Speaker 2 That's an interesting point. I- it's an interesting point. You're 100% right, and I think, I mean, part of it's just my historical ignorance, but part of it, I think, is, you know, so much of the videos and the, a- and the narrative, like the consciousness, like the, the history that we have of that time is all around the Rebbe. So I use, I assume, and I think many assume that like, yeah, if you're around the Rebbe, you spent literally 90% of your day being around the Rebbe because that's all that was going on. And what you're pointing on, and its- of course correct, is that in actuality it was 5% of the time. Maybe not even-

40:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, in a sense, in a sense it was all around the Rebbe, but you could say-

40:38 Speaker 2 I'm talking about in the actual quantity of time.

40:41 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

40:41 Speaker 2 You, you had plenty of time. If your concern was to have time to learn, you had time to learn.

40:47 Speaker 1 The Rebbe was very careful, uh, overall not to, not to disturb the star.

40:51 Speaker 2 Right.

40:52 Speaker 1 Um-

40:54 Speaker 2 And what's, uh, uh, explain, like it was-

40:56 Speaker 1 In other words, the, the Rebbe would, if a bring or come to the, to da- davening, was at times davening, uh, or, or, or give a sicha or whatever it was, was usually not at a time when-

41:10 Speaker 2 There was Seder

41:10 Speaker 1 ... there was Seder.

41:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

41:12 Speaker 1 Um, you know, it is, it's like, it's like Judaism in general. You could look at Judaism as, as something that's all-encompassing in my life.

41:22 Speaker 2 Right.

41:23 Speaker 1 But if I look at my day, how much of my day is spent eating and, you know, looking at my phone-

41:30 Speaker 2 Right

41:30 Speaker 1 ... and looking at my bills-

41:32 Speaker 2 Right

41:32 Speaker 1 ... whatever. How, how, how, uh, how immersed am I at, at that moment in Halakhahs? I mean-

41:41 Speaker 2 Right

41:41 Speaker 1 ... I, I'd like to think that I, that, you know, that, that the, the, like Binyamin Klutsky, you know-

41:46 Speaker 2 Yeah, Binyamin Klutsky

41:46 Speaker 1 ... Ein Od Milvade, but-

41:48 Speaker 2 My also Seder. I got a flex over there.

41:50 Speaker 1 Okay. That's 'cause you got it, you know.

41:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh, ju- just, uh, on the, yeah. Apparent- apparently he was, he was very, very, very, very wealthy. But, uh, when you put Ein Od Milvade on your, on your, on your, uh, on your, uh, on your accounts, it is not your yeah. But so you're, you're, you're, you're pointing out that, you're pointing out that when that, that yes, the Rebbe's presence was very dominant, but it wasn't... It was, it was more be'ekhos, not b'kamos. It was the theme, it was the motif as opposed to actually taking up all the time.

42:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. Look, you were, uh-

42:42 Speaker 2 I mean, it, it makes a lot... It's a, it's a simple point. It's an obvious point. I think to me the interesting thing about it is, I'm not trying to justify a, a historical mistake that I'm making, but I think it is correct to also observe that when people tell the history of that time, usually it's not told this way. It's usually told that everything was around, like, like all we spent, and, and I, and I... So what's the difference? I mean, I think, I think the difference is that- I'm not trying to minimize, "Oh, well, if it was only 5% of the day, so you're only losing out on 5% of your day now that, now the Rebbe passed away." I'm not trying to make that kind of silly, silly argument. Um, but what, what I am saying is that, that it was still necessary in those days to fill up the rest of your time, right? The, the Rebbe wasn't going to do it for you. In your case, you went to Beroea because for all the tefillahs, and all the Fab... You know, the weekly Fabrangin, and whatever else was going on, you, for whatever reason, felt there was something lacking in the rest of the time, right? There was always-- It was always incumbent on somebody who took, took anything seriously to fill up his time and, and to... And-

44:07 Speaker 1 Right

44:07 Speaker 2 ... right? That's, uh, that's the point I'm driving at, and I think that gets lost a little bit in the narrative of, you know, the Rebbe in, in, in, in, in, in, in... Like when we look back, the Rebbe is so dominant in the, in the disc... In, in our conception of the past, I think it's, I think it distorts a little bit. The past is very... You see what I'm saying? It's very important, it's very important to, to put things in its proper context.

44:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I would, I would say that roughly you have three, three categories of people then. You have people who didn't bother going to Fabrangin-

44:52 Speaker 2 Right

44:52 Speaker 1 ... or very often, let's say.

44:54 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

44:55 Speaker 1 Um, you know, they just, they, they just weren't, uh,

45:00 Speaker 2 Yeah

45:00 Speaker 1 ... You know, the spectacle

45:42 Speaker 2 ... being around. The spectacle.

45:44 Speaker 1 Being, being able to say that you were-

45:46 Speaker 2 You were there

45:47 Speaker 1 ... you were there. Um, and obviously, or maybe it's not obvious, but, uh, you know, the, the, the ideal is, uh, is the person that made sure to be up to date on the Sichos and the Ma'amarim and, and, and, you know, and take them seriously. And then to do that, maybe, maybe you need to go to Beroea, or Azusa, or wherever.

46:24 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

46:30 Speaker 1 The, the other thing is, and maybe this is a better way of saying something I was trying to say before, the kind of mashpia or, you know, pe- you know, people that you could get the authentic stuff from, we just didn't have it around here, or at least we didn't feel we had it around here. Like the, the real Hasidim were in Chabad or in Beroea. I don't know if that's-

47:09 Speaker 2 Is that just-

47:09 Speaker 1 Yeah

47:09 Speaker 2 ... a function of the grass is greener on the other side? Are we talking about in Chabad, is it Mendel? Like who?

47:18 Speaker 1 For example, yeah. So I mean, you know, Mendel will come for Tishrei, but he wasn't generally-

47:25 Speaker 2 Oh

47:26 Speaker 1 ... if you, if you were in New York, you weren't gonna hear from him.

47:28 Speaker 2 But if you were in, at Chabad, you weren't like a Rebbe in Crown Heights?

47:35 Speaker 1 Okay, so you had Rebbe, but, but, uh, I-

47:37 Speaker 2 No, I'm just saying, is it, is it not just a function of the grass is greener on the other side?

47:45 Speaker 1 By, by and large, I think, I think, uh, I think to some extent.

47:50 Speaker 2 Who's the mashpia in Beroea at the time?

47:52 Speaker 1 Honestly, like I said, I, I mean, it was a ghost of Reb Nissan. So it wasn't, uh, is it-

48:02 Speaker 2 I just-

48:02 Speaker 1 Itcher Manov was-

48:03 Speaker 2 It had, it had, it had that kind of, that, that, that image of being Reb Nissan's yeshiva and-

48:09 Speaker 1 In other words, the, the, the ethos was i- in many ways was set by Reb Nissan even though he wasn't, uh, you know, he wasn't physically there. But his son, uh, Sure, Itcher, um, well, he still runs it. Um, and, uh, not that he was, you know, the, uh, the... I, uh, I... The truth is in, in Beroea I, I can't think of, you know, a particular mashpia. But I think, I think another thing is that, for example, the idea of davening is something that d- you didn't really have in Seven seventy. The Hasid who davened lived in other places, 'cause in Seven seventy you couldn't daven.

48:56 Speaker 2 Why not?

48:57 Speaker 1 It was Fabrangin. There was just too much going on in general, and espe-

49:02 Speaker 2 Right

49:02 Speaker 1 ... and, and Shabbos included. When were you gonna daven? One thirty was Fabrangin.

49:07 Speaker 2 Right.

49:07 Speaker 1 So how long could you daven?

49:09 Speaker 2 Right. So who were the Hasidim that davened back then? What, what's... Like who are their names?

49:15 Speaker 1 In, in Crown Heights?

49:16 Speaker 2 No, in general, like-

49:17 Speaker 1 No, as I'm saying, if there were Hasidim who davened, they were, they were living somewhere else.

49:20 Speaker 2 A dugme.

49:23 Speaker 1 Beryl Mushkin in Montreal. Um, you know, Itcher Manov spent time davening. I don't think he davened, davened like his father, but he, you know, but-

49:36 Speaker 2 Right. There was an idea of sitting and davening for a few hours on Shabbos day.

49:39 Speaker 1 The idea of somebody sitting and davening for a while after, you know, into the afternoon, you weren't gonna get in, in Crown Heights, really. I don't, I don't... I mean, I have no memory of anybody doing that. After Chavla and other, I think you started to see some people davening.

49:54 Speaker 2 Really?

49:55 Speaker 1 'Cause there's no Fabrangin.

49:57 Speaker 2 Wow. What a, what an interesting, what an interesting... Yeah. I mean, it makes, it makes sense, but wow, that's, that's so interesting.

50:08 Speaker 1 I, I can tell you names, but, but, but yeah, you can start seeing Bochum or in the light, whatever that

50:19 Speaker 2 Hmm. I mean, it, it, it ma- it makes so much sense, right? It makes so much sense that, like, uh, what else are they gonna do on Shabbos afternoon?

50:29 Speaker 1 In a sense, right, that's the, you know, that's what you do in the Babage.

50:34 Speaker 2 Right.

50:35 Speaker 1 In the olden days, the Rebbe would say, "I'm on my Friday night," and Shabbos, you daven.

50:43 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, uh, I mean, if you're going back to the Babage, in general, I mean, if you go all the way back to the beginning, there was, there was always this understanding that you come to the Rebbe once every few years.

50:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

50:53 Speaker 2 'Cause the, uh, in many ways, in many ways, we're kind of dancing around a very simple issue here. There's always going to be a contradiction between being in the Rebbe's presence and then building your own... Not your own self, like ego, but building your own building your own

51:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

51:17 Speaker 2 By definition, right? If a person's like, uh, uh, said this many times, a Talmud has to be bottle, have to be an empty vessel.

51:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

51:26 Speaker 2 Like, you don't sit at a farbrengen thinking about what this means for you.

51:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:30 Speaker 2 You sit by a farbrengen listening, trying to listen to what the Rebbe's saying. You tr- you sit at a farbrengen trying to listen to a maamer. Uh, just, just accept. Now is not the time for, for chush benus.

51:40 Speaker 1 Right.

51:40 Speaker 2 You'll make the chush benus later, right? So it used to be that, like back in the beginning of the Alter Rebbe, the stories of they would come once every 10 years or whatever, right?

51:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

51:49 Speaker 2 And then they'd come, they'd get a lesson, then they'd work on it for 10 years, and then come back.

51:52 Speaker 1 I mean, the Alter Rebbe didn't let you come more than-

51:55 Speaker 2 Once every 10 years, was it?

51:56 Speaker 1 Well, not once every 10 years, but, uh, it was-

51:59 Speaker 2 Right

51:59 Speaker 1 ... every two, three years or something.

52:01 Speaker 2 At minimum, right?

52:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:02 Speaker 2 So you, you sp- you push and spend the... You saw the, you br- that you, it becomes even less when you realize, so how, how many years is the Alter Rebbe? 30 years, let's say. I don't know exactly the number.

52:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:13 Speaker 2 And so chassid who lived the entirety of the time of the Alter Rebbe in Siyes, according to the chassid, saw the Alter Rebbe 10 times. 10 times, that's it.

52:23 Speaker 1 Right.

52:24 Speaker 2 It's like-

52:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's like-

52:25 Speaker 2 You know, that kind of brutal math that people do where like, "Oh, I only see my parents every year." Okay, your parents are gonna live another 20 years, that means you have 20 more times, right? Every year sounds a lot more than 20 more times, right?

52:38 Speaker 1 Right.

52:38 Speaker 2 It, it hurts when they do it that way.

52:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:39 Speaker 2 So you saw the Alter-

52:40 Speaker 1 Well, I think it's a little unfair also because there's, you know... It's, it's that connection that then-

52:46 Speaker 2 Of course

52:46 Speaker 1 ... continues.

52:48 Speaker 2 Of course.

52:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:48 Speaker 2 But, but, but in a sense, you, in a sense, there's a truth to the fact that like, that you saw the Alter Rebbe 10 times and that, that was it in terms of presence of... Because there's a math here. If you're in front of the Alter Rebbe, it's g- you're gonna be elevated, but you're not gonna ever be able to bring yourself up. You're just ri- riding his coattails, right? And, and, and the, the, like the other Rebbe also and I think that's part of the reason why the yeshivas were, the t- the Tanchatzim was, wasn't or there wasn't, there wasn't a Tanchatzim, but Bochum weren't brought to Lubavitch, right? People didn't, Bochur live in Lubavitch until Tanchat Zimim. You, you, the, the Rebbe has his court, and it was a famous lotion that they, that they bring, that the s- sand around the ocean is the driest. They used to ma- mahap the people in Lubavitch, right?

53:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, yeah. Uh-

53:32 Speaker 2 I mean, there's a math here and-

53:34 Speaker 1 There was, there was the concept of the, the Yeshivas, you know, the, the Yungleit would come to spend-

53:38 Speaker 2 Right. Yungleit, not Bochum.

53:42 Speaker 1 Um, yeah, probably not Bochum. I, I don't... I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know.

53:47 Speaker 2 But I, I mean-

53:48 Speaker 1 From, from what I understand-

53:49 Speaker 2 That was a whole of Tanchat Zimim, right? That the Bochum-

53:51 Speaker 1 There, there may have been some Bochum there also, but I, I don't know.

53:54 Speaker 2 Not as a sy- not as a system.

53:56 Speaker 1 Uh, uh, the whole thing was a systematic. But yeah, Tanchat Zimim was, was definitely a, a-

54:01 Speaker 2 And even in Tanchat Zimim-

54:03 Speaker 1 ... a chassidus

54:03 Speaker 2 ... how much did they see the Rebbe Rashab? It was not every week. Uh, I mean, there was that time, I guess, when he said the maamer every week, but it was not, it was not every day certainly and then there was-

54:11 Speaker 1 Well, even in Tanchat Zimim, there were branches.

54:14 Speaker 2 Right.

54:14 Speaker 1 So not all the Bochum were, were even-

54:15 Speaker 2 In Lubavitch

54:16 Speaker 1 ... in Lubavitch. Yeah.

54:16 Speaker 2 Right. Right. So I'm saying there's a math here where, where there's a math here where the, the, w- where it's, it's, it's, it's very un- it's very clear that you cannot be, you cannot be in front of the Rebbe and also doing the necessary work to, to, to grow in the way that the Rebbe wants you to grow.

54:43 Speaker 1 Right.

54:43 Speaker 2 If that's even your, what you want, right? And then here, for whatever reason, it, it basically, we, we try to break the physics of that, right? Where you're gonna be by the Rebbe and also try to, to do both at the same time. Like, like, like, or what, what's aren't enemy in a middle, like you're, you're going to, you're going to... And what you're basically saying is that at some point there's a limit, right? You cannot be-

55:11 Speaker 1 Yeah

55:11 Speaker 2 ... in 770 for farbrengen at 1:30 and also... I mean, I guess someone could say you could wake up at 4:00 in the morning. I guess someone could say that.

55:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, but then again, you can't daven with the Rebbe.

55:23 Speaker 2 Right. There you go. There you go.

55:26 Speaker 1 So I mean, theoretically-

55:26 Speaker 2 There's always a choice

55:27 Speaker 1 ... if you wanted to at least start davening with the Rebbe, then you'd have to be finished by, um, before, before 1:30.

55:37 Speaker 2 Right. And there's also the fact, and I think, I think this is just a fair thing to say, that when you're around such a powerful presence, it, it, it's the same v- the same token that you're supposed to be bottled between a Rav. You're also, in a way, being in front of the Rav forces you to be bottled. Like it's, it's very hard to, to be in that presence and also, right?

55:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Again, I don't, I, I don't think... In other words, if, if a person wanted to do Ge- generally speaking, right? Even if you were in Crown Heights, I think if a person wanted to do a 13 minutes, there was plenty of opportunity to do that. Like I said, the Rebbe was not out all the time. However, that being said, especially in, in, in, in the noons where the Rebbe was saying sichas, you know, very often and for bringing every Shabbos, especially if it brings every Shabbos, that meant that davening by Rebbe was not gonna happen pretty much.

56:39 Speaker 2 Right.

56:40 Speaker 1 Either that or you're gonna miss the Rebbe Sabring. And if a person was davening by Rebbe at the expense of being at Sabring, and he's a nifter. I mean-

56:47 Speaker 2 Right. There's a... Look, there, there's a math to it. At some point, the physics of time, right? Th- th- it's just how it is. You cannot like, you know, try, try... Oh, is it ph- is it, is it about the Rebbe they say the lesson or like if you had a 20- if you would've had tw- a 25th hour, then he would've done it. Like, there... Time eventually, there's only so many things you can do-

57:10 Speaker 1 Right

57:10 Speaker 2 ... in a certain amount of time-

57:12 Speaker 1 Right

57:12 Speaker 2 ... no matter how efficient you are, right? You, you can only squeeze so much into time.

57:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

57:17 Speaker 2 And, and, and so there, there, there's a choice to be made here. And I, I... Well, so, so why do I find this interesting, or why do I find this important? Because, trying to think. I'm trying to think. I mean, I know, I, I know I find this very interesting. Um, I, I, I think there's just this theme that keeps on coming back to me, and I think this will bring, bring us to your, to your work on Basili Gani. The scene that comes back to me where like, in some ways you talk about the Alter Rebbe where like a person would come to the Alter Rebbe and then spend... He'd come to Alter Rebbe for a Yom Tov, for a week, a month, I don't know how long they would come, and then he would spend years away from the Alter Rebbe. Now you're talking about people or, or a, a group, an experience. Okay, many people today weren't part of it, but there was this, there was this experience that happened where Hasidim spent years and years with the Rebbe to... Yes, I understand not the whole day, but in a way that it dominated their lives.

58:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

58:24 Speaker 2 It shaped their lives.

58:25 Speaker 1 But this is a cumulative experience, not the experience of, of any one person.

58:29 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And so instead of it, not instead of, but what... There is a way to me at least to look at the years after Gimel Tammuz as the years that that experience has to be internalized, right?

58:48 Speaker 1 100%.

58:49 Speaker 2 Right? No, no, but-

58:49 Speaker 1 100%, but I-

58:50 Speaker 2 But if one, if one, if one week without Rebbe could last three years, how long does an experience with Rebbe that, and, and, uh, and a, a phenomenon with Rebbe that, that went on for so long, how long does that last?

59:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. That, that you're 100% right about that. I don't think it's a consolation-

59:14 Speaker 2 No, no

59:14 Speaker 1 ... for the, uh, the fact that we don't have those opportunities now. Um, what I do think is that is very much precisely what the Rebbe was driving at. And I'll give you an example. When I was, you know, as, as a bachur in, in Mirwa, you know, you'd get the, the, the faxes of the sichas or whatever it is-

59:43 Speaker 2 Right

59:43 Speaker 1 ... and they would make, uh, photocopies and whatever it is, and then you'd have-

59:46 Speaker 2 Right

59:46 Speaker 1 ... you know, uh, I think at the pace, whatever, small amount to gather a copy. And I had in my jacket pocket, like a, a stack of sichas that I had not yet learned.

1:00:03 Speaker 2 Right. You're falling behind.

1:00:05 Speaker 1 Right. There was a glut of output from the Rebbe.

1:00:12 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:00:12 Speaker 1 Especially in the noons.

1:00:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:14 Speaker 1 The late, late nans was especially my Marm coming, Mogadishu, my Marm coming out every like few weeks, uh, uh, Mogadishu sicha every week or could be sichas every week. It- if a person actually got through it-

1:00:33 Speaker 2 Right

1:00:33 Speaker 1 ... they, they couldn't have digested it. It was just not possible to digest. It's like a fire hydrant.

1:00:40 Speaker 2 Right. Drinking from a fire hydrant.

1:00:43 Speaker 1 And after Chazain Ada

1:00:48 Speaker 2 That made a good scene.

1:00:49 Speaker 1 You have now Project Likute Sichas. Project Likute Sichas was inconceivable-

1:00:55 Speaker 2 After Chazain Ada-

1:00:55 Speaker 1 No, no, I'm saying now, nowadays.

1:00:58 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Now there's a concept called Project Likute Sichas, which is to, to learn through the entire corpus of Likute Sichas.

1:01:05 Speaker 2 You can't do that with adding a vo-

1:01:06 Speaker 1 There was no... Exactly

1:01:07 Speaker 2 ... with adding a new volume every two years, right?

1:01:09 Speaker 1 There's a new sicha every week. It was-

1:01:11 Speaker 2 You're saying the same phrase, Sichas?

1:01:12 Speaker 1 No.

1:01:13 Speaker 2 Likute Sichas, same phrase, Sichas.

1:01:15 Speaker 1 Likute Sichas, yeah. The... Right? It, it was all you could do just to, just to keep up with-

1:01:21 Speaker 2 Constantly falling behind

1:01:21 Speaker 1 ... what came out this week.

1:01:22 Speaker 2 Right. You're falling behind. Right. You're always falling behind.

1:01:26 Speaker 1 Imagine, imagine-

1:01:27 Speaker 2 But that, well, that's, that's a problem.

1:01:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:01:29 Speaker 2 That's, that's a problem. I mean, it's something that, that I've spoken or we've spoken about on the podcast, um, me and some of the guests, where the idea of our Right?

1:01:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:00 Speaker 2 And here, the Rebbe's talking, talking, talking, talking, and so you're... Each time the Rebbe's talking, you're falling behind by 40 years.

1:02:07 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:02:07 Speaker 2 Right? There, there's a 40-year lag.

1:02:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:09 Speaker 2 And, and that, that keeps on c- accumulating. So by the time you spent a year Of the Rebbe talking, I don't know, what are you, a thousand years behind, something like that? In a certain sense, right?

1:02:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:02:20 Speaker 2 I'm obviously being a little bit extreme here, but in a certain sense, you fall behind a thousand years. So like the f- th- there's a lag here that's, that's fundamental and yeah, it makes a lot of sense what you're saying.

1:02:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. And so after, you know, Chaf Zayin Adar, especially a- after, after Yom Im Hasmos, for better or for worse, this is the time to actually relearn all of those things and actually think about it and actually internalize it.

1:02:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:52 Speaker 1 Or actually figure out what the Rebbe was saying.

1:02:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:57 Speaker 1 Um, which I think we are only beginning to do that now, 30 years afterwards.

1:03:03 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, it's so interesting. You know, um, you know, obviously in my work, this is, this is a hobby, although I, I, I am realizing more and more that it's very important work that I'm, that I'm privileged to do, but it doesn't pay the bills. So, you know, what I do for work is I, is I, is I make films, and recently I was making a film for a good friend of mine and a, uh, a previous, uh, HFL guest, uh, Shmuely Hecht, for his organization called Shabtai. And, um, we interviewed someone, forgetting his name now, Samuel Lankar. Samuel Lankar is, uh, I think, I think he was brought up Catholic. He's not Jewish, doesn't come from Jewish parents. Brought up not Jewish, and he's not a convert, right? He's, he's, he's an ex-Catholic, but not because he became Jewish. Um, and anyhow, this Samuel Lankar is a, a very, uh, a brilliant, brilliant graduate of Yale, and he runs a very prestigious magazine and, you know, an academic magazine. It's called Marginalia. Anyhow, um, Samuel Lankar took an interest some years ago in Chabad and L- and, and the Rebbe. Very... He's fascinated with it, and he's gone to certain programs and events to talk about the Rebbe. Anyway, we went... Long story short, I went to New Haven to film an interview with Samuel Lankar for a film that we were making, and there's something that he said there that was... It was so interesting how he was talking f- off the cuff

1:04:36 Speaker 2 from how he internalizes all of it. I wasn't feeding him, like, what, like, you know, "Here's what it says in the Sefer." What... Not a question, he was talking for himself. And I asked him about, you know, the, the, kind of the enduring legacy of the Rebbe, right? Like, and what did, what does he think about Lubavitch Chabad 30 years after Rebbe's passing? And he said a, he said a, a bunch of fascinating things, especially the way it came from him and the way he phrased it was so fascinating, and how so much of it was so similar to the language of the Stalkos and, and, and, you know, uh, yeah, to me, V'chayay and all these ideas, the way he phrased it was so similar, even though he, I don't think he'd ever seen those texts. But he said a line that to me was just stunning. He said, "Look, the Rebbe was a genius. He saw things that people didn't see." He said 30 years is, is a blink of an eye in terms of trying to understand what the Rebbe was saying. We haven't even begun to unpack it.

1:05:38 Speaker 1 You know-

1:05:39 Speaker 2 Uh, you see, like-

1:05:40 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:05:40 Speaker 2 ... like, is 30 years too, like, too much time, or is it a blink of the eye?

1:05:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's not like we've been trying to understand for 30 years. I, I think we're only beginning to realize-

1:05:55 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:05:55 Speaker 1 ... that we, that we have to-

1:05:56 Speaker 2 Yes

1:05:57 Speaker 1 ... you know, understand in a whole new light.

1:06:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:01 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. I, I mean, I, I think it's true for me personally, but I think it's true for a lot of people, that at least for the first 10 years after Yom Im Hasmos, we were still thinking in the same way.

1:06:18 Speaker 2 Trying to keep up.

1:06:22 Speaker 1 Um, thinking that we got, that we got it. We, we knew what the Rebbe-

1:06:28 Speaker 2 And now we just need a new-

1:06:29 Speaker 1 ... said

1:06:30 Speaker 2 ... we need a new letter, a new Rashimus, a new-

1:06:32 Speaker 1 And, and maybe, or, or, or, yeah, you know. Or, you know, if there's any, if there's any gap in my knowledge, that gap is in those secrets that I haven't learned yet.

1:06:44 Speaker 2 Right. But what I've learned, I have it covered.

1:06:49 Speaker 1 We have to ersht.

1:06:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:50 Speaker 1 Go back to Chelek Kalef and, you know-

1:06:55 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:55 Speaker 1 ... and re-

1:06:56 Speaker 2 Right

1:06:57 Speaker 1 ... see it again. Um-

1:07:00 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:00 Speaker 1 ... and then hopefully we'll begin to, begin to, to understand what the Rebbe really, um, was saying.

1:07:11 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, 'cause, you know, it... A lot of times people, people in Lubavitch, out of Lubavitch will say, "Look, I mean, what's, what's the prognosis for Lubavitch? It's just gonna become like Breslav." Right? You know, you have Nachman, you have, you have Nachman of Breslav, Rebbe Nachman, and he, you know, had a couple Sfarim, and he, he passed away many years ago, and Chassidim still go to Sicha, and there's still Breslov Chassidim, but, you know, they're, they're-

1:07:38 Speaker 1 And they call him the Rebbe.

1:07:39 Speaker 2 Right, and they're, you know, but they, but... And I say, "Look, of course there's some, there's a similarity in the sense that the, the Chassidim living after the Rebbe passes away." But to me, the fundamental difference is, is just the amount of, not Chassid-- the amount of, of, of, of Chassidis, and, and the amount, the, the amount that we have to work through is just at, like, it's, it's, it's orders of magnitude larger, right?

1:08:09 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:08:09 Speaker 2 We're, we're not s- it's not left up to imagination, is my point. It's not like we ha- you know, we have to imagine what to think about. Like, we've run out of things to figure out.

1:08:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. That, that's for sure. But, um- I feel like there's also the, the... whether it's life experiences or whatever it is, it's, it's, you know, as, as, as we go through, you know, as time passes and things happen, and listening to the things that the Rebbe said 50 years ago or whatever it is, and it sounds like, you know, he could be talking about today.

1:08:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:52 Speaker 1 And that appreciation we wouldn't have had 25 years ago.

1:08:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:58 Speaker 1 It, right, there's, there's, there's-

1:09:00 Speaker 2 So that's a different ekudah.

1:09:01 Speaker 1 But there-

1:09:02 Speaker 2 That is a different ekudah

1:09:02 Speaker 1 ... but, but the thing is that there are, there are layers-

1:09:05 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:05 Speaker 1 ... of understanding that we just were not chai to... What?

1:09:13 Speaker 2 We didn't know what he was talking about.

1:09:15 Speaker 1 We didn't know what he was talking about, and we didn't have the time even to sit and stew in it.

1:09:19 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, so getting to your, getting to your, um, dissertation, which is on Basse Legani, what was the title of it?

1:09:27 Speaker 1 Oh.

1:09:29 Speaker 2 I cut you off.

1:09:29 Speaker 1 You caught me flat-footed, yeah. Uh, I think, uh, Voicing the Shechinah: Chabad Thought in the Seventh Generation or something like that.

1:09:42 Speaker 2 It's still a draft, right? Or is it published as a book?

1:09:45 Speaker 1 It's not published as a book. Uh-

1:09:47 Speaker 2 Is it going to be?

1:09:47 Speaker 1 Im yirtze Hashem.

1:09:48 Speaker 2 All right, so-

1:09:48 Speaker 1 I mean, it's, it's, it's... Right now it's in, uh, the stage of, uh, machsheve hakduma, but, uh, but-

1:09:56 Speaker 2 That's a goal

1:09:56 Speaker 1 ... that's, uh, and that's a goal.

1:09:58 Speaker 2 So that's a working title. But it was very interesting. I, I, I, I just read, like I told you, it's a 250-page, um, document that you sent me, and I've probably gone through 40, 50 pages of it, the easier pages. But one of the interesting things that you, you actually quote from Elliot Wolfson, and you seem to accept it from him, which is precisely this point, that... And, and it was also interesting how you d- how you disagree with him. He makes a point that the Rebbe was essentially talking past the people in front of him, right? The Rebbe was talking past the people in front of him. The people didn't understand at all what the Rebbe was talking about. I'm not sure if he's trying to suggest that only he understands. I, I... That, that's just me being silly, but-

1:10:38 Speaker 1 Um

1:10:39 Speaker 2 ... you know.

1:10:40 Speaker 1 Not necessarily.

1:10:41 Speaker 2 No, no, I'm saying I, I think he thinks he understands it better than a lot of others, but I, I'm sure he also underst- feels that there are things that he doesn't understand. But in any case, he's convinced that the, that the Rebbe was talking past the people to God knows who, a, a differ- a, a different audience, future audience, a different audience. And you say, while it's clear that there's truth to that, one cannot separate the Rebbe's talking to the, right, to the people talk- to the people he's talking to. I forget the exact words that you use.

1:11:12 Speaker 1 You, you've read it more recently than I have, so I don't remember-

1:11:15 Speaker 2 But

1:11:15 Speaker 1 ... exactly what, what I wrote. Yes, um, in other words, one of the, one of the, the things that I, I, I feel like he misses, he's, um, you know, fascinated, fascinated with the Rebbe as a mystic-

1:11:35 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:35 Speaker 1 ... and as a very subtle and-

1:11:39 Speaker 2 Scholar, teacher

1:11:40 Speaker 1 ... well, like, uh, uh, very subtle levels, like-

1:11:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:44 Speaker 1 ... very dake stike ideas that he, he thinks were lost on, you know, on most people. But the same Rebbe was the Rebbe who stood and gave dollars to all the schnorers, you know, on a, on a Sunday afternoon. In other words-

1:12:07 Speaker 2 And give pennies to the kids or-

1:12:08 Speaker 1 Yeah. To the Rebbe it was not, it was, it was, I'm not saying more important, as important, whatever it is, but at least equally important. The simple, you know, making the day of a, of a schlubber a bit brighter was something very meaningful to the Rebbe that I, I don't think, I don't feel that Wo- Wolfson appreciates. Now, I haven't spoken to him about this personally, but, uh, but I, but I, since then I've, I've, uh, I've, uh, come to think that even his take is, is, is off because I, I, I find that there are, there are a lot of people who are thinking, who are thinking about what the Rebbe said, who are, you know, people that you may have interviewed-

1:13:07 Speaker 2 Right

1:13:07 Speaker 1 ... you know, who have unique takes on things that the Rebbe said.

1:13:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:13:11 Speaker 1 Uh, or others, you know, that are, that are out there. Um, certainly there are, there are many people who are not, who are not scholars, they're not intellectuals, and they're not, uh, you know, they're nothing at those levels, and they're, they're more taken by the Rebbe saying, uh, you know, "Put a tzedakah pushka on the chitas in every kid's room," or whatever it is. Uh, I'm not, uh, you know, I'm not, uh, maching that up. Um, but there are certainly, particularly, I'm saying in, in Chabad, a lot of people that, that think about what the Rebbe says, that apply it, that turn it over in their minds, that have unique takes on it. So I, I, I, I think that in that, in that sense he's also, uh, not, not entirely wrong. I did a little-

1:14:04 Speaker 2 I, I mean-

1:14:04 Speaker 1 ... kind of ex- exercise myself because on the, the cover of, of the book is the picture that you, uh, interviewed, uh, Mark, Mark Asner about.

1:14:13 Speaker 2 Oh, of, of, of Elliot, of Elliot Wolfson's book.

1:14:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:14:15 Speaker 2 The picture of the Rebbe, yeah.

1:14:16 Speaker 1 Of the Rebbe Achai Shvat-

1:14:18 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:18 Speaker 1 ... with the, you know, Hasidim behind him, and kind of looking at the various Hasidim thinking, "Does that one understand? Does that one understand?" You know.

1:14:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:14:29 Speaker 1 What... Uh, you know, for, for, definitely for, for a number of them, you could, you could question how, how far they thought about-

1:14:38 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:39 Speaker 1 ... whatever the Rebbe may have been saying then or in general. But there are definitely a lot of people in Lubavitch that are actually thinking seriously about-

1:14:50 Speaker 2 Right

1:14:51 Speaker 1 ... uh, what the-

1:14:52 Speaker 2 I mean, it's-

1:14:53 Speaker 1 ... what the Rebbe's been saying.

1:14:54 Speaker 2 I mean, going back to that idea of the, of the mashal, of the, of the Rav and Talmud, the famous idea, chassidis, about the mashal, right? Where, wait, that the point of a mashal is that the Rav gives a mashal, and there has to be some understanding of the mashal. Otherwise, otherwise it's nothing. Otherwise, it's just completely over the Talmud's head.

1:15:15 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:15 Speaker 2 There's nothing that's been transmitted, and the, the mashal also has to be understood perfectly, but on the level of the mashal. At the le- the mashal has to be mechaven in the understanding of the Talmud, otherwise the nimshal is gonna be completely off target. But there are layers here, right? The fact that... And when you understand the mashal that the Rav told you, you understand the mashal, right? You understand the mashal.

1:15:40 Speaker 1 Right.

1:15:40 Speaker 2 But you don't understand the nimshal. That's what takes 40 years. Right.

1:15:43 Speaker 1 The, the part is that, that, that it's a seed.

1:15:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:47 Speaker 1 That the Rav has given you a seed.

1:15:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:49 Speaker 1 And when you take, when you take that-

1:15:51 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:51 Speaker 1 ... and you think about it-

1:15:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:53 Speaker 1 ... and you work at it, you're gonna, you're going to understand what the Rav's-

1:15:57 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:57 Speaker 1 ... was thinking.

1:15:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:58 Speaker 1 So you have it already, and you just have to unpack it.

1:16:02 Speaker 2 Right. And I think it's important not just to kind of have a hypothetical debate with, with a non-present author, Elliot Wolfson, who I've never met, but I think it's important also in terms of this conversation where it's not either/or. You know, thinking to myself, it's not either/or where either the people then, you know, understood everything and there's nothing else to understand, nothing left to understand, right? And we're just waiting for more kind of, you know, peer submissions or what have you. Or on the other hand, that they understood nothing, and now we have to basically start from ground zero and throw everything out, out the window and start all over again because those people were completely off the wall, which sometimes I feel. But, you know, when you think about it, it's like, no, no, no, there was an understanding there that was correct. There, there was some understanding of something.

1:17:01 Speaker 1 Right.

1:17:01 Speaker 2 Right? And to assume that they were wrong just on the f- without proving that they're wrong is arrogant. You have to, you have to see where they were coming from. You have to understand they, they were also trying, they were also after something, right? And they, and they took something.

1:17:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:17:19 Speaker 2 But that something doesn't lock and, like, get... What's, what's the word? Doesn't get, um... What's the word when they, in, in academia, when they, when they lock, like, a, like a, like a period of time where you can no longer... I'm forgetting it now. But, like, when, when, when a book basically gets closed and you can no longer add to it.

1:17:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:17:38 Speaker 2 It doesn't, it doesn't get locked and, and closed now for further, for further, uh, interpretation, further understanding, deeper understanding, and now this is how it is, and now all you have to do as someone who's come later is just listen to these people and ex-accept exactly how they took it, right? Could be they missed some nuance. It could be that there-

1:17:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:17:57 Speaker 2 ... and not could be, there definitely is 40 years and more worth of unpacking that needs to happen that maybe they're not in position to do. Maybe you and I are in position to do, or maybe someone younger than us is in position to do, right? And maybe it'll only be figured out 100 years from now, but it started there.

1:18:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:15 Speaker 2 And I think that's an important point that you're making. Like, at the end of the day, the Rabbi can't be turned into some abstract mystic of just ideas, like some disembodied figure s- speaking ideas. He was also a person, like you said, giving a dollar to a schnorrer.

1:18:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:31 Speaker 2 Like, that's when it started. It started in a very practical, real way, and we cannot just discard that because it's inconvenient or because-

1:18:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, you know, uh, uh, I, I'm, I'm, I'm remembering a little more, I think, part... Some of my thinking when I, in what I was writing, that, you know, Wolfson is somebody that has worked with, uh, mysticism in general.

1:18:57 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:59 Speaker 1 And if you, if you, you know, if you look at, let's say, the AriZal. Who did AriZal talk to? He had a closed circle-

1:19:07 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:08 Speaker 1 ... of extremely advanced individuals-

1:19:12 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:13 Speaker 1 ... that he gave his, you know, his deepest teachings to. They were the only ones who could understand it. They were the only ones he spoke to.

1:19:19 Speaker 2 The Basan also, the Maguid also.

1:19:21 Speaker 1 Right. Uh, and right. Uh, pick, you know-

1:19:25 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:25 Speaker 1 ... pick your mystic.

1:19:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:27 Speaker 1 The Rabbi did not do that.

1:19:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:29 Speaker 1 He could have.

1:19:30 Speaker 2 Could have.

1:19:30 Speaker 1 But he chose not to.

1:19:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:32 Speaker 1 He chose to speak to everybody.

1:19:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:19:36 Speaker 1 So-

1:19:37 Speaker 2 That is crazy, huh? The Rabbi said on Myomer on TV... There were years, right?

1:19:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:19:44 Speaker 2 Some, some of those, some of those weekly Myomer, before they ever stopped saying Myomer, some of those weekly farbrengens, there was said on Myomer on TV, and literally any, any TV that punk happened to be on that channel-

1:19:55 Speaker 1 Right

1:19:56 Speaker 2 ... God knows where, right?

1:19:57 Speaker 1 But it's the same on Myomer. Even, even a Shabbos farbrengen or even a, you know, just a, a sicha, whatever, right? Anybody who's, who's here is here, and they're who I'm talking to.

1:20:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:12 Speaker 1 And they have to hear whatever they have to hear of this, of this sicha. Like, so the fact that the Rabbi cho-chose to, to do that means that, you know, he, he was giving something to, to those people. To just, to just, you know-

1:20:30 Speaker 2 Write them off

1:20:30 Speaker 1 ... write them off as not getting what, what, what the Rabbi said is, in a sense, doing a disservice to, to, uh, what the Rabbi, what the Rabbi was doing. Later, I, I thought of, of, you know, of, of what I've been saying about the, the glut of information where it just was not, I think it was not feasible for, you know, pretty much everybody to really, to really drill down and understand what, you know, the, the, the, the subtleties-

1:21:02 Speaker 2 Right

1:21:02 Speaker 1 ... of, of what the Rabbi was saying because When you have, you know, a, a or whatever come out in the same week, and you j- th- there's just no way that you're gonna, you're gonna sit there and, and learn through each one 10 times.

1:21:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:17 Speaker 1 And ponder it? When?

1:21:21 Speaker 2 Right. And this is also a few years into the, the Rambam, the kind of Rambam.

1:21:27 Speaker 1 I mean, there's a hundred things to do this, right? There's, there's just in science in general, there's a situation you have yeshiva or, you know, if you're a balabus, you have your, you know, you have your job.

1:21:36 Speaker 2 Right. You have a job, right.

1:21:37 Speaker 1 You have your bills to pay.

1:21:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:39 Speaker 1 When are, when are you gonna sit there and-

1:21:40 Speaker 2 People work then too, you're saying. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, it, it's, it's... Okay, a- and I think this is another interesting thing that you were speaking about, and I think you also tie this to Wolfson. Um, I mean, certainly to the way he phrases it, which, you know, he, he knows how to phrase things, uh, in ways that are both fascinating and equally frustrating. But, but the idea of, the idea of time in, in the Rebbe's term, and we'll get, we'll back, we'll get back to it with Basili Ganni, but the idea that the Rebbe's whole time is a circle in the sense that-

1:22:18 Speaker 1 Mm

1:22:19 Speaker 2 ... the past informs the present, and the present informs the past, and that informs the future, and everything's playing off each other at the same time, right? And, you know, there's, the, the, the idea is in a sense we're on a level, everything is, everything's interconnected, right? Um, there, there's a level of godliness where, where everything starts-- It's not that it's above all the things, it's all them, all them touch each other and, and inform each other.

1:22:48 Speaker 1 Right.

1:22:48 Speaker 2 And I think, you know, applying that to a, to, to even the history of Lubavitch and the narrative of Lubavitch, it's important to have that kind of circularity also. Like, the present, the past needs to inform the present. We cannot cut off the past and just live in a present of our own making because, because, simply because we cannot trust our biases and our... Like, there's a reason we, th-the-there's a reason why we, why we, why we value history, because we don't, we don't come here from nowhere, and we don't have the ability to start from scratch. We don't have the wisdom to start from scratch, and we, we also cannot trust ourselves to start from scratch for only the... You know, history has a weight to it. It has a weight to it, and is, at the very least, is a check against our ideas. You're gonna do this? Really, how has it worked in the past, right? You think you're gonna be the first one to-

1:23:47 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:23:48 Speaker 2 ... to, to... Right? So the past, at the very least, informs the present. But the present should also inform the past, right? The present has to say, "Wait a second. Which part of the past is a part of the past that I wanna hold onto-

1:24:01 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:24:01 Speaker 2 ... and worth holding onto?"

1:24:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:24:03 Speaker 2 Right? And how do I incorporate the past into the present? By understanding the, the break, by how the present shapes the past. And then the past again, in turn, now that I have a past that's enriched by the present, that past is now richer and can now enrich, in turn, the present.

1:24:18 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:24:18 Speaker 2 And it keeps on going like that.

1:24:20 Speaker 1 Yes. There's a, the, I don't know if you, uh, got up to this part. I think it's towards the end that I, that I bring up this anecdote. Uh, I think it was Purim, Tashlikh, Yad VaSheva.

1:24:33 Speaker 2 I didn't get up to it.

1:24:34 Speaker 1 The Rebbe at that farbrengen, um, you know, at, at one point, I guess well into the farbrengen, started to talk about himself in a very belittling way. And at one point, he said, it says that he, he turned to the, uh, Alter Rebbe and he said, like, "I don't know how you can stand it. You, you know, you guys were by the Rav Rashab and by the Shverer." And like, many of the y- the younger people, they don't know. Like he, he gave the example of the, uh, the Beis Hamikdash. It says when the second Beis Hamikdash was built, so the young people were, were all excited, and they were celebrating, and the old people were crying 'cause they remembered the first Beis Hamikdash.

1:25:19 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:25:20 Speaker 1 They said, "This is, this is nothing."

1:25:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:23 Speaker 1 And, you know, and the Rebbe was saying that about himself. And, uh, it was Rabbi Mendy, it doesn't say in the, uh, in the, uh, you know, Toras Menachem, but who, uh, you know, was very unhappy with the way that the Rebbe was talking. And he said, he went over to the Rebbe and he said, "It's, it's all one, uh, you know, one chain." And, uh, and he said, he s-suck out his cup, and he said, "I, I want to get mashke from the Alter Rebbe."

1:25:57 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:25:58 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe gave him. And, um, it, what, what I, what I took from that, or what I used it as a, as an example of, was also understanding the interplay between past and present. You spoke about past in a sense of it informing the present, which is, you know, which is valid. But the question is, are we or should we be looking to the past as a place to somehow get back to? And part of what I, what I, what I, what I'm trying to say is that it's, it's the Alter Rebbe now. It's not a past. When the Rebbe speaks, you know, the, uh, the words of the Alter Rebbe, it's, it's the Alter Rebbe now. This is the Alter Rebbe in 2024, or 1950. It's, it's, it's being-- it's like being the, the vo- making that past present.

1:27:17 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:27:21 Speaker 1 Because this is where we live. So-

1:27:25 Speaker 2 How does that work? Is that just like a mystical idea, or there's a logic to it?

1:27:35 Speaker 1 I, so, you know, I th- I think, I think it's true of, of Judaism in general, and I, you know, I think a lot of people look at, let's say, you know, being Frum-

1:27:49 Speaker 2 Right

1:27:49 Speaker 1 ... as people that are trying to preserve-

1:27:52 Speaker 2 Living in the past

1:27:52 Speaker 1 ... the way things were.

1:27:54 Speaker 2 Right. Anachronistic.

1:27:55 Speaker 1 You know? Well, or even, even, even in a positive sense, you know? The world has gotten out of hand, and these are people that are trying to continue-

1:28:06 Speaker 2 Stay the course

1:28:07 Speaker 1 ... you know, something good and something wholesome that, that has been lost. And I, I, I, I think that in, in the way that the, that the Rebbe teaches Judaism, he does not teach it that way at all. He does not say, you know, we have to hold on to whatever, we have to preserve. This is a reality now. I think it kind of goes back to what I was talking before about the Rebbe being an embodiment of what we're learning about in Chassidus. This is reality. This is real. This is something real now.

1:28:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:46 Speaker 1 In the here and now.

1:28:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:49 Speaker 1 And we can hear Moshe Rabbeinu now, or we can hear the Alter Rebbe now through-

1:28:54 Speaker 2 Right

1:28:55 Speaker 1 ... you know, the Talmud Vasik or whatever.

1:28:58 Speaker 2 Right. The, the Rebbe was, in a way, a proof that what you learned in Torah or Likutei Torah or Tanya or whatever is, is, is real.

1:29:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. More than a proof. He, he is that.

1:29:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:14 Speaker 1 He is that in, like, you know, I'd say a walking Sefer Torah. He-- But it's not that, you know, like nostalgia can, you know, can be like that, "Oh, you know, back then, times were better." I, I don't feel like you can get from the Rebbe's sichas and things this looking back-

1:29:41 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:41 Speaker 1 ... at a better time.

1:29:42 Speaker 2 Right. No, very living.

1:29:44 Speaker 1 It looks at today.

1:29:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:48 Speaker 1 Thirty years. What is the significance of thirty years? Not, "Oh, you know-"

1:29:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:53 Speaker 1 ... "back in the good days."

1:29:55 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:30:00 Speaker 1 This is a moment now. The, you know, the same hamshachas are present on this day, you know, thirty years later, and that's what it means today.

1:30:15 Speaker 2 Right. Right, that i- in many ways, that's, that, that's the theme of your work on Basse LeGaani, where the Rebbe is every year taking another sif of the hamshacha, the Phi that Rebbe published, and, uh, like you, like you write extensively, but this is, you know, every... It's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's a very different kind of hamshach in the sense that it's a hamshach that continues once a year for, for what is it?

1:30:47 Speaker 1 Right.

1:30:47 Speaker 2 Thirty-some years. And like you're saying, the Rebbe's taking a ma'amar that you could say was published ten, twenty, thirty years earlier, and is, and is making it, making it alive in the present.

1:31:07 Speaker 1 Right.

1:31:07 Speaker 2 He's make, he's making the past, he's making the past present in, in, in a, in a very unique, in a very unique way.

1:31:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and that's also the idea of, of, of mentioning each of the Rabbeim.

1:31:21 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:22 Speaker 1 He's not saying, "Don't forget that there once was an Alter Rebbe, that there once was a Mitler Rebbe." Right now, the Alter Rebbe is speaking through, through, through the Rebbe. The Mitler Rebbe is speaking through the Rebbe.

1:31:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:31:35 Speaker 1 It's, it's, it's, it's a reality now.

1:31:40 Speaker 2 Right. I know that in your, in your, in your paper, you, you go straight to the Basse LeGaani of Teshri Zayin. Um, but to me, this is so pronounced in the first Basse LeGaani, where, you know, I just, I had the chance recently to listen to the ma'amar, the recording, and I mean, so many parts of it are just, are just stunning. But I mean, to me, what jumps out immediately, and maybe it's 'cause I'm not such a maskil, is the emotion, the emotion of the first ma'amar. The, you know, the emotion. And by that, I don't mean, "Oh, the Rebbe's crying." Okay, obviously, but-

1:32:24 Speaker 1 Pathos.

1:32:25 Speaker 2 Pathos, and, and, and, and, and the Rebbe wrestling with, with time, and the question of time.

1:32:31 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:32:32 Speaker 2 Right? Because I mean, it's precisely what you're talking about. The Rebbe assuming the Nesius meant a nudur. It m- it relegated, in some sense, every-- the Phi that Rebbe to the past.

1:32:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:32:49 Speaker 2 Right? It's, it's almost fascinating when you listen to the ma'amar. It starts off, the Rebbe says, um, he speaks in the sicha regular farbrengen tone that the ph- that the Phi that Rebbe gave out in a ma'amar. Like, he says in his regular voice.

1:33:06 Speaker 1 Right.

1:33:07 Speaker 2 And then Bas-- And then Basse Le-- Then he starts saying the ma'amar, he says it in ma'amar language. There's this transition of-

1:33:13 Speaker 1 Mm

1:33:14 Speaker 2 I, I'm say-- Like the Fidiker, the Fidiker said some- I mean, Fidiker says in the maimer that he gave out for the day of, I thi- I forget how you phrase, Yom HaZikaron-

1:33:22 Speaker 1 Yes

1:33:22 Speaker 2 ... Yom Ha'Atzmaut, Yom Yerushalayim. And he says it like, like, "I'm still part of-- I'm still-- It's still part of that era, and now I'm saying a maimer, and now it's all changed."

1:33:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:33:36 Speaker 2 It's all changed, and you hear everybody quiet, everybody shh, everybody realizes. And then the rest of the maimer, the, the Rebbe's wrestling with it. I mean, like people, pe-people point out obviously to the fact that the Rebbe cried when he spoke about that we're here against our will, and like, Sh'levo echad saying, Sh'levo echad saying, "Einenu." Right? And all these things. But the Rebbe also cries when he says, "Aptike ve'yikra v'yakir."

1:34:03 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:34:04 Speaker 2 When he realizes that I can no longer be the learner, the, you know, the, the, the student-

1:34:12 Speaker 1 The talmid. Right

1:34:13 Speaker 2 ... I now have to be the Rebbe, right? I now have to teach. I wanna sit in my office. I'll do some work for Amer- you know, whatever work he was doing up to that point, but then I spend the rest of the time learning. I'm a private citizen. I can... Right? I ve'ikra.

1:34:28 Speaker 1 There's a fascinating, uh, anecdote that the next day after, uh, you know, after the Rebbe said the maimer, he said to, I guess, somebody in the Moshiach Center, I don't know if I knew who it was, something to the effect of, "We gotta make a new letterhead." In other words-

1:34:50 Speaker 2 We're starting a... Is it Nesius?

1:34:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:34:53 Speaker 2 It's right.

1:34:53 Speaker 1 Until, until now, we had, you know-

1:34:55 Speaker 2 Tafetz

1:34:56 Speaker 1 ... Yerushalayim, uh, Merkaz L'Michanach, whatever.

1:34:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:35:00 Speaker 1 And yeah-

1:35:02 Speaker 2 Is it-

1:35:02 Speaker 1 ... there's been, there's been change. Now it's time to write to Lubavitcher Rebbe.

1:35:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:35:05 Speaker 1 Or whatever. Um-

1:35:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. There was, there was no, there was no, there's no theatrics to that maimer, and I... If I don't know why growing up as a boychor, like what always struck me is like the theatrics of it. Like, oh, the host gets up and says, "Yeah, we wanna hear chasidus," and everyone says maimer, and then, "Oh, we have a Rebbe." Like it's like a, like almost like a, like a pantomime of some kind, right?

1:35:26 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:35:26 Speaker 2 Like a, like a, like not even a pantomime, that's being cynical, but more like, like a ritual, like a protocol-

1:35:32 Speaker 1 Mm. Right, right

1:35:32 Speaker 2 ... we have to get through. Like what was happening here was time was-- the Rebbe was wrestling with time.

1:35:41 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:35:41 Speaker 2 Like how do, how do I, how do I move on from-- how do I basically relegate the past to the past without losing the past? Like, like I, like, so like, like you talk, like you talk about in your talk, like you took baser legi- the baser legani is this kind of, I don't know the word device, but this, the, it is this thing where the maimer of the past becomes the present, right?

1:36:10 Speaker 1 Right.

1:36:11 Speaker 2 It, it-

1:36:11 Speaker 1 In a sense, the reason why I didn't speak about Tashrin Yaa'aleph was because it's a, it's actually a very unique maimer.

1:36:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:23 Speaker 1 Like it's not your typical maimer, and what I wanted to argue was that this is actually-

1:36:28 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Right. I understand

1:36:28 Speaker 1 ... what's going on. Like just pick, pick out.

1:36:33 Speaker 2 Pick any maimer and I'll show it to you. Yeah.

1:36:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um-

1:36:36 Speaker 2 Yeah, Tashrin Yaa'aleph is a, a bit easy to make this-

1:36:38 Speaker 1 Right. No. I'm, I, I, I think it's completely valid to, to, you know, to, to point to these things happening in the maimer of Tashrin Yaa'aleph, but I mean, there, there, there's a, there's a, a fascinating just general kind of question of how, in a sense, how the Rebbe saw himself as a Rebbe.

1:37:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:10 Speaker 1 This is a, I think a kind of, kind of question that a lot, a lot of Lubavitchers would-

1:37:15 Speaker 2 Shy away from

1:37:16 Speaker 1 ... not think is appropriate to, to ask or discuss.

1:37:19 Speaker 2 But the, the people listening to this podcast know better.

1:37:22 Speaker 1 But

1:37:23 Speaker 2 I mean, they, they know, not that they know better than those Lubavitchers, they know better that that's gonna be a reason not to ask it. So go ahead.

1:37:29 Speaker 1 That, that's exactly why, why you're gonna wanna talk about it. Um, you know, unlike any of the other Rabbeim, the Rebbe insisted to Harod Nesius that Nesii HaDeah was the Rebbe the Shliach.

1:37:45 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:46 Speaker 1 And one of my, um, you know, methodological approaches, um, in what I was doing is to take the Rebbe at his word.

1:38:04 Speaker 2 Sir, I like what I'm hearing already.

1:38:06 Speaker 1 Uh, because, you know, you have it, you have it on, on, on either end.

1:38:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:11 Speaker 1 You have the academics who, you know, are reading all kinds of venal personal motives into-

1:38:23 Speaker 2 There it is, Freud. The ghost of Freud.

1:38:25 Speaker 1 Yeah. Whatever, you know. Uh, like you're saying, you know, the, the Rebbe's playing a part in, in, in, in, in the whole, you know, baser legani-

1:38:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:38:34 Speaker 1 ... thing. He, he is gonna say it, he's not gonna say it, you know.

1:38:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:38 Speaker 1 He's showing, you know, th-th- I'm thinking in particular of, uh, of, uh, uh, the Rebbe, um, by, uh, Sam Hellman and Menachem Friedman.

1:38:48 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. No.

1:38:51 Speaker 1 You know.

1:38:52 Speaker 2 That book's tone deaf. It's not even compelling.

1:38:54 Speaker 1 It's... Yeah. Th-there's, there's many problems with, with that book. Um, but-

1:38:59 Speaker 2 I mean-

1:38:59 Speaker 1 But, but, but-

1:38:59 Speaker 2 ... the, the main problem is that it's just not compelling.

1:39:02 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:39:02 Speaker 2 It's just not compelling. It's just not a good-

1:39:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's a, a professor in-

1:39:05 Speaker 2 It, it's not, like less... It's, it's not only that it's disrespectful, it's simply not compelling.

1:39:09 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah. There's a pr- there's a professor in, in Davis at, uh, um... you know, that I, that I s- I spoke to him, I think, before, before the book came out, and then, uh, he made basically the same point. He said, "You know, it's an interesting question. They don't give a good answer." Um, but it, but, you know, that aside, but that, but that, but that way of thinking-

1:39:32 Speaker 2 Right

1:39:32 Speaker 1 ... right, of trying to, to, you know, kinda question the motives-

1:39:39 Speaker 2 Right

1:39:39 Speaker 1 ... of what was he really-

1:39:40 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:39:40 Speaker 1 ... you know. Uh, o-on the one hand, and on the other hand, you know, of, of, of, uh, Chasidim who also-

1:39:51 Speaker 2 He was talking about himself.

1:39:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:39:52 Speaker 2 He was being humble.

1:39:53 Speaker 1 Did not really-

1:39:53 Speaker 2 He didn't really mean it. Yeah.

1:39:55 Speaker 1 No. Right. I, I think it's a mistake. Now, I mean-

1:39:58 Speaker 2 I agree with you

1:39:58 Speaker 1 ... it's not that the Rebbe didn't, didn't see himself as a Rebbe, but, but it, it, it's a much more nuanced-

1:40:03 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:03 Speaker 1 ... question. Um-

1:40:05 Speaker 2 But it, it behooves us at the very least to try to understand it on a literal level before we jump to these Ramazim and-

1:40:13 Speaker 1 Right. Exactly. To try to understand it on, on a literal level, and to grapple with, so what... I mean, the Rebbe certainly, and I don't, you know, I don't think there's any question about this, b- believed that he was the Rebbe of the Rosh Yeshiva.

1:40:30 Speaker 2 Right. You just said that story of the Rebbe changing the stationery.

1:40:33 Speaker 1 Right.

1:40:34 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:34 Speaker 1 Right. And, and there's, there's a number of stories from, from that, uh, which, you know, in which the Rebbe basically consolidated, um, his authority over the various Rabbonim Shluchim.

1:40:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:47 Speaker 1 Which was not a, it was not an automatic thing and, uh, and, and, you know-

1:40:51 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:51 Speaker 1 ... and the Rebbe went about it in a, in a, uh, you know, in a firm way. Like, he, he-

1:40:59 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:59 Speaker 1 ... things had to-

1:41:01 Speaker 2 Right

1:41:01 Speaker 1 ... had to happen.

1:41:02 Speaker 2 Right.