Ep. 35 // "Do You Notice the Narrative?" w/ Rabbi Peretz Chein (Bonus conversation w/ Chanie Chein)

00:00 Speaker 1 Narrative and noticing.

00:02 Speaker 2 Right.

00:03 Speaker 1 Narrative, in a certain sense, often precedes you. Noticing is what you do in the experience itself. Now, the question is w- the narrative, where does this come from? How did it come about? But the key, the key is to notice.

00:19 Speaker 2 Right.

00:20 Speaker 1 It's a skill, it's an art, and I'm going to make the claim that that's the skill of a Hasid.

00:30 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Benzia Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I'm here with Rabbi Perez Chen from Brandeis University, or is it college?

00:55 Speaker 1 University.

00:56 Speaker 2 University. Less pretentious. I like it already. Uh, just so you know, you're in one of... You're in a very pretentious neighborhood of Philadelphia. Our streets are named after Ivy League colleges. You're on Dartmouth, and down the road is Harvard, and whatever. Maybe, I don't know if Brandeis has made it, but-

01:14 Speaker 1 No, very far from it.

01:16 Speaker 2 But, but-

01:16 Speaker 1 It's a wannabe

01:17 Speaker 2 ... I just wanna make you, uh, feel... I guess, I guess I didn't make you feel welcome. I did the opposite of what I thought I'd do. Um, anyway, thank you for, thank you for coming here, for being here. Pleasure to meet you. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I'd like to introduce you a little bit, but I, I would, I would like you to tell most of your story.

01:36 Speaker 1 Okay.

01:37 Speaker 2 I, I know you as a Well, well let, let's back up a little bit.

05:08 Speaker 1 Okay.

05:08 Speaker 2 Let's back up. So you said you got married in 2000.

05:11 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

05:11 Speaker 2 Uh, I don't mean to date you, but that probably means you were born in the late '70s.

05:16 Speaker 1 I, yeah, I was born in lam- uh, lamed bev, '75.

05:21 Speaker 2 Right. So you're a little over 10 years older than me. Um, so w- we'll get back to getting married and going on shlichus. I know that's very relevant to, to the idea that we're going to get to, but let's talk about growing up in Crown Heights in the '80s and '90s.

05:36 Speaker 1 Sure. So I was actually born in Israel. My parents, uh, came to Israel from Russia in the early '70s. They were part of the underground Chabad community in the Soviet Union.

05:48 Speaker 2 Okay.

05:49 Speaker 1 Uh, my grandfather would have the... He was a for him to have the What year did they leave Russia? '71

06:06 Speaker 2 So a few years before you were born?

06:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. And my parents were, uh, married in Eretz Yisrael, and then I was born.

06:14 Speaker 2 Oh, so your father as a bachur had the... And his, and his parents-

06:16 Speaker 1 No, my, my gran- my mo- I'm sorry, I wasn't correct. I think my mother's side, my mother's family.

06:20 Speaker 2 Is from Russia.

06:21 Speaker 1 Both of them.

06:22 Speaker 2 Both are from Russia.

06:22 Speaker 1 Both are from Russia, but I think it was my fa- grandfather, Z"L, on my mother's side.

06:27 Speaker 2 What's his name?

06:27 Speaker 1 Khatsernov.

06:28 Speaker 2 Khatsernov.

06:28 Speaker 1 Reb Golkhatsernov.

06:29 Speaker 2 And he lives in Eretz Yisrael now?

06:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So my parents got married. I was born, my sister was born, and then they moved to Crown Heights in the l- late '70s.

06:40 Speaker 2 Why did, why did, w- why were... I mean, there, there isn't a more gezhe name than Peretz Chein.

06:46 Speaker 1 It's a brand.

06:47 Speaker 2 Yes, it's a brand. I mean, this goes all the way back to the Alter Rebbe, right?

06:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

06:51 Speaker 2 Why did the Cheins get stuck in Russia? Why didn't they come out when with everybody else?

06:55 Speaker 1 So some part of my family did. My, uh, my father's grandmother, uh, Baba Shifra, came out in s- '47 with her daughter and her husband.

07:04 Speaker 2 Your father's mother, you said?

07:05 Speaker 1 My father's grandmother.

07:06 Speaker 2 Grandmother.

07:07 Speaker 1 Uh, my father's father and his, his family stayed behind for what, a number of, whatever reason. Um, it's still uncertain. They weren't ready to go.

07:17 Speaker 2 Russian, we don't talk about it.

07:19 Speaker 1 They weren't ready to go. They... I, I don't know. They don't talk. Exactly. I think that's more accurate. They don't talk about it. Uh, but they stayed behind. Not, and remember, not everybody could go.

07:28 Speaker 2 Right.

07:28 Speaker 1 It, it ended. The trains ended at a certain point in time.

07:30 Speaker 2 Right.

07:30 Speaker 1 So maybe they were gonna go later-

07:32 Speaker 2 Right

07:32 Speaker 1 ... and it all ended, so, so, you know.

07:34 Speaker 2 Right. Right. No, it's such, it's such a fascinating, uh, part of Lubavitch history. It kind of, it almost like, it, it's like that kind of cul-de-sac that in a way gets forgotten about 'cause the, the Lubavitch narrative is we were in Russia, then we came to America, and the Rebbe came to, the Rebbe came to America, then we all came a few years later, and that's where Lubavitch was. But there's this whole, like, chapter of Lubavitch proper, not just like refuseniks that knew about Lubavitch, but like Lubavitch proper. You know, the book of Samarkand, right?

08:05 Speaker 1 Samarkand, yeah, yeah.

08:06 Speaker 2 By Zaltsman.

08:07 Speaker 1 So, right. So Zaltsman tells this story as it was in Samarkand. There was a whole 'nother story nobody's really told yet, though he references it somewhat in his book in Moscow.

08:16 Speaker 2 Right.

08:16 Speaker 1 And in, and, uh, and in Malakhovka, which is a town outside of, uh, uh, outside of, uh, of Moscow, where there was a Chabad, you know, a little Chabad community. My grandparents were there, others were there.

08:27 Speaker 2 Fascinating. Fascinating.

08:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:28 Speaker 2 So they were, they were there after the war, according to what you're saying, a good, good 25, 30 years.

08:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:35 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

08:37 Speaker 2 Wow.

08:37 Speaker 1 So, and, uh, so my grandfather, who I'm named after, Peretz, he never, he, he never left Russia.

08:44 Speaker 2 He didn't?

08:44 Speaker 1 He passed away-

08:45 Speaker 2 In Russia?

08:46 Speaker 1 In Russia, yeah.

08:47 Speaker 2 Before they made it out?

08:48 Speaker 1 Before they made it out, yeah.

08:49 Speaker 2 He passed away at the hands of the government or-

08:51 Speaker 1 No, he passed away from stomach cancer.

08:54 Speaker 2 Stomach cancer.

08:54 Speaker 1 He spent, he spent a, a period of time in Siberia, in a Siberian labor camp.

08:57 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:58 Speaker 1 And there he developed, uh, an illness that, that took him.

09:01 Speaker 2 Yeah.

09:01 Speaker 1 And I was born a few months, I think six months afterwards.

09:04 Speaker 2 Wow. Crazy.

09:06 Speaker 1 So move fast forward.

09:07 Speaker 2 Yes, sir.

09:08 Speaker 1 Uh, we came to the, uh, they came to United States, and I grew up in Crown Heights, uh, from, you know, late '70s, late Lamed.

09:15 Speaker 2 Right. Oh, so you, you grew up in Crown Heights-

09:16 Speaker 1 I grew up-

09:17 Speaker 2 ... as far as you remember?

09:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, until 1990. 1989, no, '91. Then I went to yeshiva in Eretz Yisrael-

09:22 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

09:23 Speaker 1 ... at 14, and so I spent, you know, in, in, uh, yeshiva there. Yeah, I was a kid.

09:30 Speaker 2 So, so you, you grew up in Eretz, you grew up in Crown Heights, then you moved to, when you went to Eretz Yisrael, that was which year?

09:36 Speaker 1 Nun Alef, Nun Alef.

09:37 Speaker 2 Ah, so you went to Eretz Yisrael before the stroke?

09:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. I was in Eretz Yisrael when the stroke happened.

09:42 Speaker 2 Was there a reason why you left Crown Heights at the time?

09:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just bumming around. I was-

09:49 Speaker 2 That's-

09:49 Speaker 1 I was wasting time in school, and I just wanted something different.

09:52 Speaker 2 I always find that so fascinating, I'll be honest with you. Not, not because like I, oh, I, I found a bum from those days. Um, it's more, a- again, it's the narrative thing where like the narrative is that everyone wanted to be in Crown Heights, and everybody was dying to be in Crown Heights because everybody wanted to be by the Rebbe. That's a narrative. Not only that, everybody today wants to be in Crown Heights of those days. Every... I mean, ask a bachur.

10:18 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

10:19 Speaker 2 If, if you could, if you could have, if you could be back in 5749 in Crown Heights-

10:24 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

10:24 Speaker 2 ... would you go back? And the answer would be 100% yes.

10:27 Speaker 1 Currently.

10:29 Speaker 2 Well, yeah.

10:29 Speaker 1 In the current perspective.

10:30 Speaker 2 Of course.

10:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

10:31 Speaker 2 Of course, but that's a narrative.

10:32 Speaker 1 Right.

10:32 Speaker 2 Right? And I think that's such a f- you know, it's, it's always fascinating, not that, not that what you're saying therefore means that everyone else was faking it or that it's not true, but it's, it, it's a narrative is exactly that. It's a, it's, it's a, it's like what it was for most people superimposed on everybody.

10:51 Speaker 1 Right.

10:52 Speaker 2 And it, I think it's always important to, to refine the narrative and realize, one second, this isn't, this isn't necessarily true for everyone, right?

10:59 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. You use a good word. Narratives are superimposed.

11:03 Speaker 2 Okay.

11:04 Speaker 1 And, and the narratives we live in and the narratives we're, we're, are given to us and narratives we make up, it's a whole, it's a whole parshah unto itself. We could, we'll, we'll, we could get to that later.

11:12 Speaker 2 Okay.

11:12 Speaker 1 But it's a big deal that needs to be addressed.

11:16 Speaker 2 Right. But, but okay, I under- so you said as an issue you wanna talk about it later, but as it pertains to your story, I, I think it's like paint the picture a little bit what it means for a 14-year-old bachur to decide that I, I would rather go to Eretz Yisrael, which I, I'm guessing from what I've heard about Israeli yeshivas today, I'm guessing looking it was not, not a luxury hotel that you were going to.

11:43 Speaker 1 I was the only American kid in that school.

11:46 Speaker 2 Right.

11:46 Speaker 1 It was a culture shock.

11:47 Speaker 2 Where?

11:48 Speaker 1 In Lod.

11:48 Speaker 2 In Lod?

11:49 Speaker 1 It was a-

11:49 Speaker 2 What, what makes a Crown Heights kid at the height of the Nuns, this is like the height of it, decide to go to Lod? I think that's fascinating.

11:57 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, I was, like I said, I was bumming around.

12:00 Speaker 2 Right.

12:00 Speaker 1 Just wasting time. I was just tired of it. And I said, "Okay, I wanna go, I wanna Take my life seriously, strange as it may sound for a fourteen-year-old. Uh-

12:10 Speaker 2 But, but did you not, did you pick up, did you not pick up on, on this, this avirad that everyone talks about in Crown Heights?

12:17 Speaker 1 N-

12:17 Speaker 2 I'm not asking you to talk for anybody else.

12:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. I speak for myself. At the time, listen, you know, until my bar m- for, like, the... When I was twelve, or eleven, twelve, until my bar mitzvah, every Shabbos I was by the Rebbe's, you know, right by farbrengens, not sitting by the, by, by the Rebbe's feet. I think it was just for my last year, like when I was twelve until the, my bar mitzvah. Sure. So you had those moments, but you also had what was actually going on in my own personal life, my own personal what I was experiencing.

12:44 Speaker 2 Right.

12:45 Speaker 1 At school-

12:45 Speaker 2 Right

12:45 Speaker 1 ... for the most part.

12:46 Speaker 2 The rest of the week.

12:47 Speaker 1 The rest of the week. The rest of the week, it was just crappy in the sense that it was just nothing, it was, it was, it felt a waste.

12:55 Speaker 2 It felt a waste because, 'cause the w- the learning wasn't being taken seriously?

12:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. I just, I just felt that way. Listen to you. I go- I always felt that it was, that it was empty.

13:03 Speaker 2 It was empty. Hmm.

13:04 Speaker 1 It was, it was empty. I want, I wanted something more.

13:06 Speaker 2 Wow.

13:07 Speaker 1 And, uh, you know, I came to Eretz Yisrael . I came to Eretz Yisrael. I didn't go... I didn't apply to yeshivas. I have family there.

13:12 Speaker 2 Right. No, you had a reason to go to Israel. I understand.

13:14 Speaker 1 So I went there. I went, I went into one yeshiva.

13:16 Speaker 2 Where did your family live in Israel?

13:17 Speaker 1 In Yerushalayim.

13:18 Speaker 2 Yerushalayim. The Chins still live in Yerushalayim?

13:20 Speaker 1 This is my mother's si- fa- family.

13:22 Speaker 2 Oh, you said, you said-

13:22 Speaker 1 My mother's family. My, my father's family is, is, is in, is in Crown Heights-

13:26 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

13:26 Speaker 1 ... in New York. Uh, so I came to the first yeshiva, apply. I came with my uncle, he took me to the first yeshiva. I didn't... I just landed, went to yeshiva. He called up in advance, made an appointment with the Rosh Yeshiva, farhered me.

13:37 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

13:37 Speaker 1 And I knew, I, I, I, I, I knew, I was, I was awful. He said, "I'm sorry, this guy's not qualified." "He's just... I'm sorry."

13:44 Speaker 2 Send him back to Crown Heights.

13:46 Speaker 1 He's not qualified. Okay. So we try... This was Rishon. Then we went to, to Lud, called up there, said, you know, "Could you take, could you take him in?" He said, "All right, come. Let's get a farher." I came, they got a farher. And he was farhering me on the Gemara that I actually thought I knew, actually thought I learned.

14:02 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

14:03 Speaker 1 And he's farhering me, and I also-

14:04 Speaker 2 Who's, who's he?

14:05 Speaker 1 Velvel Segal.

14:06 Speaker 2 Okay.

14:06 Speaker 1 Rosh Yeshiva.

14:06 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:07 Speaker 1 I, I didn't know n- I know crap. And he said, "I'm sorry. You're not, you're just not qualified. You may, you sweet kid, but you're just not qualified." I w- I was not qualified. I couldn't make a lending on a, on a Blatt Gemara, let alone, you know, let alone, uh, listen to a shiur fully in Hebrew.

14:22 Speaker 2 But you wanted to at this point.

14:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. That's why I was there.

14:25 Speaker 2 Right.

14:26 Speaker 1 So my uncle pleaded my case and said, "He's here."

14:29 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:30 Speaker 1 "Give him a chance." So he said, "Okay, I'll give you two months, uh, two months chance." Put me in a class lower than my grade, lower than my age. Like the entry, like the, you know, the first year instead of the second year, which was my age.

14:41 Speaker 2 Right.

14:42 Speaker 1 And, um, and there, poof. Now, I was a kid that loved sports.

14:48 Speaker 2 Right.

14:49 Speaker 1 You can't touch a ball there.

14:50 Speaker 2 Certainly not in those days.

14:52 Speaker 1 Certainly not in those days. And I was the only American kid in the school. There were some others who had American parents who I befriended. Uh, and just started working, you know, started hustling, started working, started learning, and just exposed to a new, a new ins- a new appreciation for learning, for, for Gemara, for mefarshim, for Chassidis. Like, wow, this stuff is really interesting.

15:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

15:13 Speaker 1 And interesting. Uh, uh, now before that, I, I wasn't interested in shlichus as a kid. I was, you know, I was gonna, I was gonna become a lawyer and make a lot of money. That was like my-

15:21 Speaker 2 Really?

15:22 Speaker 1 ... my childhood fantasy.

15:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

15:23 Speaker 1 Uh, and during the... While I'm in yeshiva, you know, they, I use chassidus to the Rebbe and learning Chassidis and I, I had a shift in my mind, and I said, "You know what? I think I wanna go on shlichus. That's what I, that's what I wanna do."

15:36 Speaker 2 This is all happening before the stroke?

15:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all happening before the stroke. And as, and over the course of the year, the second year, I started sharing this with my family. I remember I have one, had one, one great aunt, Rose Engel Zintstark. You know, from Chabad family, but really more, you know, came to Israel, became more, uh, you know, not, not part of the Chabad community. I was sharing with her, and she was like g- getting into me on it, says, "You're, you're, you're, y- you're making a mistake."

16:02 Speaker 2 Really?

16:02 Speaker 1 "Yeah. Y- how are you gonna support yourself? What are you, what are you doing?"

16:08 Speaker 2 Okay. She has a point.

16:09 Speaker 1 She has, she has a point, but, you know, I argued back and forth, and then had a conversation with another family member who says, "Well, you know, this is what you think about it now."

16:16 Speaker 2 Right.

16:16 Speaker 1 "When you get older, let's have a conversation."

16:18 Speaker 2 Right. They also have a point.

16:20 Speaker 1 They have a point. And a few years later, I had a conversation with her. We met somewhere, and I said, "Remember that conversation you had? We had, and you said, you know, reconsider it. You may reconsider it. I still haven't reconsidered it." So, you know, so that, that was my, my yeshiva experience for the most part.

16:38 Speaker 2 How was Crown Heights... I, I find it fascinating. I, I, you know, obviously I'm kind of harping on an anecdote here, um, and I, I wanna, you know, I wanna be clear, I'm not trying to say that you reflect on anything more than yourself. I mean, I certainly don't have evidence to claim that, but it's still fascinating as an anecdote to... So very unexpected to me. How did, how did going back to Crown Heights now feel? Like how, you know, how did, how... What changed for you now that you've come back? I'm sure you came back to Crown Heights. You came back to Crown Heights at all?

17:09 Speaker 1 When?

17:10 Speaker 2 Once you came to Israel, you came back for Yom Tov to, to your family?

17:13 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

17:13 Speaker 2 What changed about Crown Heights? What changed about the Rebbe's Chassidut to you now that you had gone away?

17:20 Speaker 1 Oh, so when I, you know, when I came back, I had a f- far greater appreciation for it, far greater understanding of it, far greater connection to the Rebbe's Mamarm and the Rebbe's Sichas being, being there, you know, as much as I can, whenever I can.

17:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

17:35 Speaker 1 Uh, back in an alef and in beis. Uh, y- you know, the, the distance that I had and, and, and, and, and learning the Mamarm and the Sichas back then i- in a different, in a, from, from a distance created deeper g- offered a deeper appreciation and understanding of what it is, particularly being with people, the, the Israeli Bochurim, who for them it was all distance.

17:58 Speaker 2 Right. Right. No, that, the, the... To me, this is a, a very important topic, the, the q- the question of distance or the question of closeness Hey, and, and this is not just about Lubavitch and Crown Heights. It, it, in a way it starts with Tench Etmumim, where the Rebbe Rashab basically says, "I'm gonna have the Bachram right here by me under the immediate supervision of my son, the future Rebbe, and me at whenever, in whichever capacity. They listen to my mom on a regular basis." That never existed before, I think on purpose. I think the idea was people need distance to be able to internalize what the Rebbe's saying and what the message is. If you're always there, you're, you're... It's like looking at the sun the whole day. You can't-

18:39 Speaker 1 You're blinded.

18:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, you can't look at the sun. You, you have to look at the sunlight. I was actually... Uh, we were talking earlier about how I, uh, how I do video production. I was talking to a colleague, and he was telling me how I was trying to... He was tr- he was trying to recreate the sun in the window. I said, "No, no, no. You, you don't create the sun in the window. You cr- you recreate the sunlight in the window." It's impossible to recreate the sun, nor do you want it. It's, it's gross. It's too much. Um, for a, for a camera it's gross.

19:05 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

19:05 Speaker 2 For the world it's beautiful. But, you know, so there was always that understanding of distance, and then it seemed to collapse, right? You know, I was talking on an earlier episode with, I think it was Ruvi Nu, and, you know, Alterra became a thing for younger Bachram in the late or mid-memes. Until then, no younger Bachram came to, came to Crown Heights.

19:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

19:25 Speaker 2 And it became a thing to be there from a young age to, like, basically cook in the soup, like in it.

19:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

19:33 Speaker 2 So i- it's not... Y- you know, it's, it's a real, it's a real, it's a real thing.

19:36 Speaker 1 So actually you remind me of a conversation I had with a friend back then.

19:41 Speaker 2 Huh.

19:41 Speaker 1 Uh, this was... I said I was there for one year when I was alone. I was the only American kid there. So I went back for the second year. I wanted, like, to get a friend to come along.

19:51 Speaker 2 Right.

19:52 Speaker 1 And, uh, you know, and he says, "No, I wanna stay here. I wanna be by the Rebbe." And, and I made, and I made the argument that you, your growth and your appreciation can, can occur in a greater to a greater degree from this distance.

20:12 Speaker 2 Right.

20:12 Speaker 1 And we had this de- we had this debate. I went back alone.

20:16 Speaker 2 You went back alone.

20:17 Speaker 1 I went back alone.

20:19 Speaker 2 Sh- was there a sense at the time? It's a very interesting conversation you would have with your friend, and in a way it's like totally, it makes total sense.

20:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:26 Speaker 2 It makes total sense. It's regular, regular Bachram having a conversation. Which yeshiva should we go to? Oh, you know, I'm in Alterra, and this and that, and I'm in Lod. Why weren't you in Lod? And there's, uh, the ultimate kind of flex. What am I... You know, who's doing it better? And you, you laid out your case, and he laid out his case.

20:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

20:42 Speaker 2 It feels very normal.

20:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

20:43 Speaker 2 Was there at all a sense at the time that the clock is ticking?

20:48 Speaker 1 No. No. Never.

20:52 Speaker 2 E- explain that a little bit.

20:55 Speaker 1 The clock didn't move. The clock was stationary.

21:01 Speaker 2 There-

21:03 Speaker 1 There was no... There, there's no such thing as the, as the past. It's just that the present is expanding. So there's no such thing as something is, is gonna be, is gonna be gone, is gonna disappear.

21:15 Speaker 2 The Rebbes had passed away a couple years earlier. I mean...

21:19 Speaker 1 Sure. But we, you know, we never did a kafas with the Rebbes in or listened to Rebbes chazar al haTorah.

21:26 Speaker 2 But you didn't understand that the Rebbe was getting older?

21:28 Speaker 1 No.

21:29 Speaker 2 Really?

21:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. Again, yeah. Time d-

21:32 Speaker 2 See, 'cause you, you, you had that consciousness to realize that I'm going to... I'm not... It's not working out for me here. I have to go there. So you clearly were, you clearly were, were thinking in a way for yourself and iconoclastic about it.

21:46 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

21:46 Speaker 2 And you're saying that even then there was no sense of how could I go to Eretz Yisrael? Who knows how much longer we got at this?

21:53 Speaker 1 Not a chance. That, that-

21:55 Speaker 2 Really?

21:56 Speaker 1 That there wasn't... N- n- no. That idea, that, that concept and i- that time-

22:01 Speaker 2 Because Mashiach would come or because, or because?

22:05 Speaker 1 Because time paused.

22:09 Speaker 2 But it didn't. It paused, uh, for your life, I mean, you, you, you, you weren't think- you were thinking about becoming a lawyer. That, that's not pausing. You weren't staying a child.

22:16 Speaker 1 Okay. That, that was, that was before, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I saw things differently. You know, I became-

22:23 Speaker 2 So back then you did realize that there was a time?

22:26 Speaker 1 I... That was too young.

22:27 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

22:27 Speaker 1 I was still, still a kid. But no, by t- t- time-

22:30 Speaker 2 But time paused for everything or just for the Rebbe? That's my question.

22:33 Speaker 1 Well, listen, at, at-

22:34 Speaker 2 People got, people got older, people got married, people had kids. Like-

22:37 Speaker 1 Okay, but I was a kid then. I was 15, 16 years old. You, you're not aware of-

22:41 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

22:41 Speaker 1 ... of aging. You're not aware of-

22:43 Speaker 2 Fair enough

22:43 Speaker 1 ... of time passing by. You're not aware of, of, of death, of... You know what I mean? And de- death of moments, death of eras. You don't ex- you never experience that.

22:52 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, it's fair enough to say that at 15, 16, you're not thinking in these kind of terms of mortality in general. But, uh, I guess I'm asking if there was ever a sense in the community of, of, you know, like "" Like we-

23:06 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

23:06 Speaker 2 ... we don't know how much longer this is going to last.

23:08 Speaker 1 Unquestionably not.

23:10 Speaker 2 That's so interesting.

23:11 Speaker 1 Unquestionably not.

23:13 Speaker 2 And you think this is all because of the, the Mashiach, you know, Mashiach's going to come, or even without Mashiach coming?

23:18 Speaker 1 No, even without Mashiach coming. Yeah.

23:19 Speaker 2 The Rebbe's going to be the first person to live forever? We just don't think about it.

23:23 Speaker 1 We, we don't think about it. W- here's something very important. What we don't speak about doesn't exist.

23:29 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Back to the Russians.

23:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's just human nature. You don't talk about something, it doesn't exist. You don't have a word for it.

23:35 Speaker 2 Right.

23:35 Speaker 1 It, it never happened. So it wasn't... You, you, you, you... Uh, but there's another point here. You, you are, you're, you're constantly experien- getting new experiences, particularly in 770 and in base, my goodness. You, you, you know, I would being in Bachram Eretz Yisrael back then, you wait for the Yeah. It's your whole reality. Ex- exactly. So it's just n- and it's new stuff coming out all the time. So no, there was no sense whatsoever that we got to, uh

24:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I guess, look, uh, if I wanna be kind of balanced here and to qu- check my own questioning, you know, there are a lot of people that will say that let's... That look, uh, this country like America, you know, it has a lot of problems. Uh, it has a lot of very, uh, concerning problems, right? And some people will say, you know, in, in, in a few years, you never know what this country's gonna look like, and it's very hard to contemplate that. It's very hard to really believe that the reality that you're so used to, you know, could actually just kind of fall apart.

24:44 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:45 Speaker 2 And, you know, and it, like... But it, it, it's still to me, it's just, it's, it's still very, very interesting, um, that you're, you're saying that, that it was just, it was an idea that was so off limits. I mean, 'cause like if-

24:58 Speaker 1 It wasn't, it wasn't off limits

24:59 Speaker 2 ... 'cause I'm not even, I'm not even necessarily talking about passing away. I, I kind of understand that. You say it wasn't off limits, it didn't even exist.

25:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:07 Speaker 2 Well, because it wa- 'cause it was never spoken about.

25:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, but didn't feel like it was... It did- it didn't even f- uh, it didn't feel like you... That, that was like a place you don't go to.

25:15 Speaker 2 Ah. It wasn't like we don't speak about it.

25:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:17 Speaker 2 It just doesn't exist.

25:18 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:18 Speaker 2 'Cause I mean, forget about even passing away. There was a time where the Rebbe took Yechidas, and then he stopped taking Yechidas. There was a time where he said, "Mamaram," and he stopped saying, "Mamaram." There were tzukefes. So, like, you could say, "This tzukefes is going to end," but even that wasn't.

25:32 Speaker 1 Sure. Here, so here's my, my point earlier. We s- at least we were taught to see it, and we were sworn, we explained, the Rebbe explained it this way, that it's, it's not a regression, it's a progression.

25:42 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

25:43 Speaker 1 So the lack of Mamaram, the lack of Yechidas, is a progression. There's a progression. There's... So we're not l- we don't lose the past-

25:49 Speaker 2 Yeah

25:49 Speaker 1 ... we're taking the past, and we're moving it forward. We're constantly... That's what I mean, that's what I mean to say that time doesn't exist. Time in the se- in the sense of the past being dead-

25:58 Speaker 2 Hmm

25:58 Speaker 1 ... or the past being something that is no longer, doesn't exist. The past is just being in the present, just expanding, and expanding, and expanding, and expanding. So-

26:12 Speaker 2 But that sounds wonderful on paper, right? But i- what's fascinating to me is how it plays out in people's day-to-day lives. 'Cause you made a very interesting point before, which I've thought about, uh, quite a bit, uh, in general, which is that, you know, the Shabbos Fabregans were very exciting and, and for a child, stimulating and uplifting. I don't remember if you used those words, but you know, it was a moment, but the rest of the week is the rest of the week. And you know, it's the same problem that we have with memory. Like when you look back at this past year, for example, you remember moments, and you create very quickly a narrative. But if-- when you have to live through the year, there's the days that are grind, and there are the days that basically get... They don't kind of stick out in either way. That's what makes them a grind. They're not terribly bad, they're not terribly good, they're just there. And when you're living through it, it's an actual... It's, it, it, it sucks something out of you, right? And, and so to me, the distinction that you made was that, you know, there's this narrative about being in Crown Heights at the time, but then there was the real, real lived life, which I, which I find very relatable and very believable. But then you're telling me that when it comes to the Rebbe, there was no such distinction. The way the Rebbe spoke about time got translated into

27:30 Speaker 2 how, how you lived it too.

27:32 Speaker 1 Partic- particularly as a bachur.

27:35 Speaker 2 It's fascinating.

27:37 Speaker 1 A, a bachur, you don't, you, you don't live in what would be con- you can-- what would be considered reality. You don't have... You don't, you don't think about your future.

27:43 Speaker 2 Right.

27:44 Speaker 1 You don't think about y- uh, you're not investing in something moving forward. You're just very present in the current experience, and that's what makes a bachur life and, and education so valuable.

27:56 Speaker 2 Right. And temporary. We'll get to that soon.

28:00 Speaker 1 Y- yes. Yes.

28:02 Speaker 2 Well, yeah. Well, no, we'll get to it.

28:03 Speaker 1 Okay.

28:04 Speaker 2 I, I... Yeah, I, I don't think... I, I think there's plenty of value, plenty of value in that part of life, but, but sometimes I think it gets carried away. But looking back now-

28:16 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

28:16 Speaker 2 ... to, to kind of focus on that point, looking back now, how do you understand or how do you view the, the bachur shiurim? Do you feel, "Damn it, I should have, I should have known better"? I mean, I could even make the question a bit sharper for you. I don't know if it's a bit-

28:30 Speaker 1 Go as sharp as you can.

28:31 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying like-

28:31 Speaker 1 When, when I-

28:32 Speaker 2 ... do, do you regret now not realizing that the Rebbe was getting older and that going to Eretz Yisrael meant that you missed out on two years? I'm saying like, do you... How do you look back at that?

28:42 Speaker 1 I look back at it very fondly.

28:44 Speaker 2 Hmm.

28:44 Speaker 1 Extraordinarily fondly. I look back at it with that during those two years, I had a far greater appreciation and understanding and connection with, with the Rebbe, with the Rebbe's, what, what was, what was going on, as a result of the fact that I was, did have that distance, that I was, I w- I'd say in a certain sense, I wasn't distracted. I was laser-focused on the sichas, the mamarim, the learning that was going on in my life at that time. And, uh, and yeah, and, and, and, and I'm very grateful that I, that I did that, that I was there.

29:24 Speaker 2 Hmm.

29:25 Speaker 1 And I, and I think that had I not, I, not I think, I know for certain, had I not been there then, I would not be here today.

29:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

29:32 Speaker 1 And I'm certain, and I know that what I got there in those two years, it was actually less than two years, uh, what I ca- is carry with, carries with me in a very meaningful, deep way till today, and...

29:46 Speaker 2 It's, it's so interesting. Uh, did... So let, let me fill out the story a little bit before I, before I ask the question I wanted, I wanted to ask. What happened after the stroke? You stayed on in Eretz Yisrael?

29:57 Speaker 1 No, I actually came home.

29:59 Speaker 2 Right after the stroke?

30:00 Speaker 1 No, for Pesach.

30:01 Speaker 2 Okay.

30:02 Speaker 1 And I stayed on.

30:03 Speaker 2 You stayed in New York?

30:04 Speaker 1 I stayed in New York.

30:04 Speaker 2 Why?

30:06 Speaker 1 Um, a number of reasons. One-

30:13 Speaker 2 Were, had you been planning to come back to New York event- like at some point around then?

30:17 Speaker 1 I was gonna come home for, like because of chag zaynah there, so I said, "I wanna go home for Pesach." I would've stayed otherwise in Eretz Yisrael for Pesach with my family.

30:24 Speaker 2 No, I'm saying were you gonna... The next year, were you planning on coming back to America? Was that in the plans?

30:28 Speaker 1 I don't know what my next year plan was. It was, it was Shir Gimel, so I did have to-

30:31 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

30:32 Speaker 1 ... uh, make a, make a decision, but I wasn't thinking about what my decision for the next year is. Uh, but I came back, and uh, I guess there was a sense of something's really, you know, unique and special is going on over here, so I, uh, I'll stick around. This was after the stroke.

30:50 Speaker 2 You're talking in the... What do you mean by-

30:51 Speaker 1 Chag zaynah

30:52 Speaker 2 ... special, special? Moshiach Tzafentia, Moshiach has to come, that kind of?

30:56 Speaker 1 I suppose. Yeah, I suppose.

30:59 Speaker 2 Hmm.

31:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's, there's... Yeah. Yeah. You know, just going back into that, going bring, bring my, bring my head back to that time-

31:10 Speaker 2 Right

31:10 Speaker 1 ... un-unquestionably yes. Oh, yes.

31:14 Speaker 2 Is it hard for you to go back to that time?

31:17 Speaker 1 No. No, it's-

31:18 Speaker 2 Like, is it hard to, like, toggle between-

31:20 Speaker 1 It is. It is. Because it's... Yeah, it is in that sense, in the sense that it's, it's... You know, I, the world... I, I see the world differently today-

31:27 Speaker 2 Right

31:28 Speaker 1 ... than when I saw it as a 16-year-old. The world I live in is a different world I live, uh, is, is a different world. What I, the world I interact with is a different world.

31:36 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

31:36 Speaker 1 So yes, I, I, I, I n- I need to toggle back in my conscious, but in my subconscious it's, it's very present.

31:44 Speaker 2 So you think it was only that you were 16 years old, not, not that there was... I mean, there was just a different sense of reality then?

31:50 Speaker 1 Oh, there was so-

31:51 Speaker 2 Okay

31:51 Speaker 1 ... oh, unquestionably, there was a different sense-

31:53 Speaker 2 Right

31:53 Speaker 1 ... of reality.

31:54 Speaker 2 Right. So when you go back in time, do you feel like-

31:56 Speaker 1 I'm going back-

31:56 Speaker 2 ... like all, all your priors have to change? Like the... To understand yourself and the people around you-

32:01 Speaker 1 Yeah

32:01 Speaker 2 ... back then, um, like do you feel like you have to change a lot of your priors, your fu- your fundamentals to understand how people spoke? Like you, you look back at those, at those times-

32:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

32:13 Speaker 2 ... and you remember some conversations, the way people spoke at the Shabbos table, whatever. Are they... In your mind today, are they Looney Tunes? Are they... Like it's such a different reality, right? So how do you look at them? Forget about your 16-year-old self, which is obviously younger.

32:28 Speaker 1 Uh, it was, it was a deeply, deeply mystical reality.

32:39 Speaker 2 Right.

32:39 Speaker 1 The world was mystical on its highest level, and we're talking about the most mystical being. We're talking about the Rebbe here.

32:47 Speaker 2 Right.

32:48 Speaker 1 So everything was on a different plane, and you saw the world through that, and you experienced everything through that. So, you know, in a, in a sense, you know, the stroke was fake. Not, not that, not fake in the sense that it didn't happen, but it has no control.

33:04 Speaker 2 Right.

33:05 Speaker 1 Uh, there was, there was-

33:07 Speaker 2 It's part of a story.

33:08 Speaker 1 It's part of a story.

33:09 Speaker 2 Right.

33:09 Speaker 1 It's part of a choice. It's part of a choice. And, and I just wanted to be nearby when, as it unfolds.

33:20 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow. So in a way, at least in your experience, what had been in the past a kind of dry atmosphere, apart from the few moments here and there there was for bringing, had now turned, like it, it kind of exploded into a fully saturated mystical atmosphere-

33:42 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

33:42 Speaker 2 ... which you hadn't sensed before.

33:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, but r- yeah, like, you know, all the rules have been broken.

33:48 Speaker 2 Right.

33:48 Speaker 1 The rules of reality, meaning to say, you know, the Rebbe's health, the Rebbe's continuing presence. The, the Rebbe's stroke was never supposed to happen.

33:58 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

33:59 Speaker 1 was not supposed to happen.

34:01 Speaker 2 Right.

34:02 Speaker 1 That was, that was, that was... There's a mistake here.

34:04 Speaker 2 Right.

34:04 Speaker 1 So, so there's gonna be a correction.

34:07 Speaker 2 Right.

34:07 Speaker 1 And, and I wanna, uh, you know, I wanna be there for the correc- be there at the correction.

34:16 Speaker 2 And that sense of, that sense of seeing it in this positive, mystical light, that lasted for the next two years?

34:23 Speaker 1 Unquestionably.

34:24 Speaker 2 Really?

34:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:27 Speaker 2 Hmm. Because it's so interesting. Like somebody, uh, uh, speaking, I was speaking, I was speaking to someone earlier and about the recent podcast I did with Moshe Greenwald, and, um, you know, he, he spoke, he spoke about those times. He wasn't even in Crown Heights. He was in Long Beach. Anyway, that podcast, like it or hate it, whatever, but, um, a bunch of people reacted to it with their own memories of that time, and there's like a lot of, I don't know, negativity, bitterness, like, like that those were the toughest times. And it's interesting that, that you feel otherwise. I'm not questioning it. Like not everyone has to see things the same way.

35:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:10 Speaker 2 But-

35:10 Speaker 1 The, the tougher time I'd say is, is, is, is after Gemara Talmus.

35:17 Speaker 2 After Gemara Talmus.

35:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I won't say immediately. I'm, I'm, I'm talking about... That's... And now, and now we're looking back and, and I say, I'm-- You're asking me back, back then at the time.

35:28 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, yeah.

35:28 Speaker 1 Right. I'm looking, now looking back it's, it looks a little differently. I think about it differently.

35:32 Speaker 2 Right.

35:33 Speaker 1 Uh, you know, but, but back then at the time, no, it was, it was... Here's at the core, and see. Now, is now 20-plus years and people trying to always wondering what is Chabad about.

35:49 Speaker 2 Right.

35:50 Speaker 1 We are mystics.

35:53 Speaker 2 Yeah.

35:53 Speaker 1 We are mystics. We see the world mystically. We feel the world mystically.

35:58 Speaker 2 That run marathons.

35:59 Speaker 1 That run marathons. And my-- Yeah, I make the point, we are not mystics in the mountains of the Himalayans.

36:05 Speaker 2 Right.

36:05 Speaker 1 We're mystics on Fifth Avenue.

36:07 Speaker 2 Right.

36:07 Speaker 1 We're mystics in middle America.

36:10 Speaker 2 Right.

36:10 Speaker 1 But we are mystics. We don't see-

36:11 Speaker 2 Yeah

36:11 Speaker 1 ... the world the way normal people see the world.

36:14 Speaker 2 I think that's true.

36:16 Speaker 1 That's why we look the way we look. You know, we, we, we are a, we were a beard that's just as mystical. We, we, we, when we see another Yid, we get all excited that they're gonna put on tefillin. That's, that's mystical.

36:25 Speaker 2 Right.

36:25 Speaker 1 We move out to communities with nothing just to start something new because we see the world mystically.

36:30 Speaker 2 Right.

36:33 Speaker 1 Before and after was mysticism, being mystical beings in its most concentrated form.

36:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

36:42 Speaker 1 What you're observing with your, with your, you know, matu- uh, physical eyes is fake. There's a mystical reality that is occurring over here.

36:52 Speaker 2 Hmm.

36:53 Speaker 1 And that is... Now, that is what- Many of us, me included, were totally tapped into

37:01 Speaker 2 So interesting. Yeah. I mean, the, the way you're describing it makes a lot of sense to me. You're almost describing to me that, like, growing... Especially 'cause you had grown up at least from a young, a young age in Crown Heights, the kind of week in, week out Farbrengens of, or the system around the Rebbe, there's a routinization to it. You kinda get used to it. You get used to the holiness. It's, it's... You can package it. It's that time of the week, but the rest of the week is-

37:25 Speaker 1 Yeah

37:25 Speaker 2 ... is regular, right?

37:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And-

37:29 Speaker 2 Is that fair?

37:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I would say even, even be- more than that, even the Farbrengens themselves are routi- rou- routinized, so-

37:34 Speaker 2 Yeah

37:34 Speaker 1 ... as a kid I didn't go to Farbrengens at all. In fact, not in the second grade.

37:39 Speaker 2 Right. And, and most of your friends did go to the Farbrengens?

37:41 Speaker 1 No. Some did, some didn't. Mo- most, mo- I mean-

37:44 Speaker 2 That's a lot to ask of a-

37:45 Speaker 1 No

37:45 Speaker 2 ... second grader anyhow. Yeah.

37:46 Speaker 1 No, but this is, this, this... I was, well, I was at a rally.

37:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

37:49 Speaker 1 This was a children's rally. A friend of mine just got an Atari. Atari was, like, the first video games.

37:57 Speaker 2 Before Game Boy?

37:58 Speaker 1 Before Game Boy.

37:59 Speaker 2 Okay, yes.

37:59 Speaker 1 This is like 1982, 1983. He got an Atari.

38:01 Speaker 2 I think I've heard of it, yes.

38:01 Speaker 1 Atari.

38:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

38:03 Speaker 1 And me and him slipped out of the f- the rally, went to his house and played Atari and, and played video games. And the second Rebbe's looking around, where are these two kids? My mother gets a call, "Your kid disappeared. He's not at the rally anymore."

38:17 Speaker 2 Right.

38:18 Speaker 1 I walked home and I got it over my head for running away from the rally.

38:22 Speaker 2 The issue was that you were dis- that it was not safe, or that you were not a good Lubavitcher kid?

38:28 Speaker 1 Not safe.

38:29 Speaker 2 Not safe.

38:29 Speaker 1 Not safe. But, but, uh, the sentiment is no, being at a rally, being at, at a Farbrengen wasn't interesting until I... For me personally, until I, like, turned 12.

38:37 Speaker 2 Right.

38:37 Speaker 1 Then it started getting a little interesting.

38:39 Speaker 2 Right. Do you get pushback today when you make, when you make these observations?

38:45 Speaker 1 Honestly, I, I-

38:46 Speaker 2 You don't care?

38:47 Speaker 1 No. No, I don't care. I, I've rarely had this conversation.

38:49 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

38:50 Speaker 1 I, I, like, on, on college ca- on, but granted, nobody really cares for it.

38:54 Speaker 2 Fair. No, fair enough. I understand that it doesn't happen on the regular, but... No, it's just, it's, it's so-

38:59 Speaker 1 But-

38:59 Speaker 2 It's a very, it's a very honest... Uh, I mean, how do you judge honesty? I, I sense, I sense it's honest, and it's also, it's not the typical, so that kind of... There's another check in the direction of it being honest. But, um, you know, it's just a, it's a very different take, let's say, without making it, casting any judgment on it one way or another. It's a very, it's a very different take of, of how people speak about those years, and I think it's important to at least see it as, as, as, as a take of those years.

39:28 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:29 Speaker 2 And, uh, what you're describing to me is that there's a routinization that happens, which makes a lot of sense.

39:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

39:36 Speaker 2 I remember... I wasn't there. I, I grew up 10 years after you. I grew up in Hong Kong, so for listeners of the podcast, they've heard, they've heard I wasn't there. But I remember years later, just a few years ago, I was working on a video project, and it was about, it was about a few Baal Teshuvas who had become Lubavitch in the '70s, and one of them, one of them ended up living in Crown Heights, David Laz, Dr. Laz.

40:00 Speaker 1 Sure.

40:00 Speaker 2 The famous Dr. Laz. A great, great, a great, great friend of mine. A great man. Um, he lived in Crown Heights for a couple years, and he has very interesting int- insights into that time. I think he lived around, like, the times that we're describing, the late, the early naughts, I think is when he li- lived there. Anyway, so for the doc- for the purposes of the documentary, he also, he was very involved at the time with interracial relations, and he had a friend, uh, Father Richard or... I don't know. I don't remember anymore. It was a few years ago. Um, so I was looking for footage of the Crown Heights riots.

40:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:33 Speaker 2 And you can find footage online, or you... I think I licensed footage from NBC or what have you. One of the TV stations sent me raw footage to review to pick out which moments I want, and now I'm seeing Crown Heights n- like, un-Gematified. It's not the Rebbe. Sorry.

40:52 Speaker 1 Have, have you just created a new term?

40:55 Speaker 2 No.

40:55 Speaker 1 I've, I'm hearing this for the first time.

40:56 Speaker 2 This is what I do.

40:57 Speaker 1 Uh, you're, you- you're the un-Gematifier?

40:59 Speaker 2 No, no. No, no. I c- I make up words.

41:02 Speaker 1 Okay.

41:03 Speaker 2 I don't know. They don't teach us English in, in Lubavitch, so we make up words. I don't know.

41:06 Speaker 1 We have our own dictionary.

41:07 Speaker 2 Yes, sir. Or mystics, like we said.

41:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely.

41:10 Speaker 2 M- mystics don't talk in words. They talk in letters. Anyway, so, you know, it was, it was, it was not packaged. It was not, it was not a Rebbe video certainly, but it also wasn't in, like, the Rebbe's chassid. It was a video on a random Tuesday of the front doors of 770, and I started seeing people, some of whom I recognize, coming out of 770 and bullshoving.

41:34 Speaker 1 Yes.

41:34 Speaker 2 But, like, right there.

41:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:35 Speaker 2 Like, the Rebbe's right, the Rebbe's behind you, and he's like six feet f-

41:38 Speaker 1 Oh

41:38 Speaker 2 ... 10 feet from you.

41:39 Speaker 1 The, the place was full of that.

41:40 Speaker 2 10 feet from you. Like-

41:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:42 Speaker 2 ... and, like, it's like this is exactly what it looks like today. So don't come to me with a story about how everyone those days was, was under, like...

41:51 Speaker 1 Bull. Load of bull. I, I'll say, I'll add to that. Now, now it's coming back to me. During the Farbrengens, what were most kids doing? They were outside playing.

42:02 Speaker 2 Right.

42:02 Speaker 1 They were, they were in the back playing kugelah.

42:04 Speaker 2 Right.

42:04 Speaker 1 They were... You'd often listen, they were running up and down the tanks. They were, they were playing baseball, football, whatever. Not baseball. We used to sit outside and, and, and, and, and play like this, some type of kids form of, of, of baseball. You remember kid- players' names and positions.

42:18 Speaker 2 Right.

42:18 Speaker 1 That, that's, that's what most kids were doing.

42:20 Speaker 2 Right. I'm talking about adults in the video.

42:23 Speaker 1 Okay.

42:23 Speaker 2 Those are very different.

42:24 Speaker 1 I, I, I speak from experience.

42:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. No, but it's okay. And it's like, it's... The point is not to say, "Ah, the whole thing is fake-

42:30 Speaker 1 No

42:30 Speaker 2 ... and the whole thing is baloney."

42:32 Speaker 1 No.

42:32 Speaker 2 The point, the point is that, that, that, that a part of the narrative is made up, right? The narrative takes on a life of its own, and the narrative basically collapses a very complex layering of reality where there's... You can help yourself to the next one.

42:46 Speaker 1 No, no, no. W- every time you say narrative it, it like... Uh, we gotta-

42:50 Speaker 2 We're for- we're foreshadowing over here. But, um, yeah, I mean, like, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a s- it's, it's just- So what's a po- what's the point? I, I try to, trying to like dig here and krich and like what, you know, what, what am I trying to get out of it? First of all, I find it interesting, so, you know, that's, that's, that's the main criteria for, for a conversation for me. But I, I think, I think it's very important. Na- narrative... I mean, I make a living with narratives, right?

43:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

43:17 Speaker 2 That's, that's how you get people to donate to a campaign. That's how you get people to buy into a brand. It's all about narratives, right? We live, we live dominated by narratives. That's why people write books. That's, uh, that's why, that's why everything. A babushka is a narrative. Bus- you know, bus... God is a narrative. Everything's a narrative. Chasidus is a narrative. How do you see the world? Here is, you know, It's a narrative. It's a true narrative, but it's a narrative. We live in narratives, right? So narratives are super important, and narratives are how we live our lives.

43:44 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

43:45 Speaker 2 And, and the problem with narratives is that you can get carried away with the narrative, and you can begin to mistake the narrative for something not that, that, that's more than a narrative, right?

43:56 Speaker 1 Mm.

43:56 Speaker 2 So the narrative of those years being the, the best years and the gute taytn, I'm not saying that that's not true, but there was a whole world going on around that.

44:06 Speaker 1 Outside the frame.

44:07 Speaker 2 Exactly. Right. Using camera language here, right? Outside the frame. Exactly. Exactly. Right? There, there's that micro... You know, people are stunned when you film and how much you see... I mean, it's more than that, right? There are famous tests that they've made where they've had people... You're talking about outside the frame. I'm talking about even inside the frame.

44:26 Speaker 1 Mm.

44:26 Speaker 2 There's a famous psychological test, I forget the name of it, where they had people looking at, looking, like at a, at a screen, at the frame, and they were supposed to focus on like balls bouncing or something and know how many times it bounced, and they had monkeys-

44:40 Speaker 1 A gorilla

44:40 Speaker 2 ... running through the... A gorilla running through the frame, and people didn't even notice it.

44:44 Speaker 1 That-

44:45 Speaker 2 Right?

44:46 Speaker 1 W- we'll get to that later. That is an extraor-

44:49 Speaker 2 O- okay. You can stay overnight then. All these things we're pushing off to later. But my, my, my point is that like it's not just out of the frame, it's even in the frame. The problem with narratives is that even in the frame you don't, you don't notice certain things. And we have no choice. We gotta live with narratives, right? But, but at least recognize that it's a narrative. It's not everything.

45:07 Speaker 1 You said two words here-

45:09 Speaker 2 Okay

45:09 Speaker 1 ... that are sometimes com- that are competing: narrative and noticing.

45:14 Speaker 2 Right.

45:15 Speaker 1 Narrative, in a certain sense, often precedes you into a certain c- circumstance and certain, uh, certain experience.

45:24 Speaker 2 Right.

45:25 Speaker 1 Noticing is what you do in the experience itself.

45:29 Speaker 2 Right.

45:30 Speaker 1 Now, the question is w- the narrative, where does this come from? How did it come about? But the key, the key is to notice.

45:37 Speaker 2 Right.

45:37 Speaker 1 It's a skill, it's an art, and I'm going to make the claim that that's the skill of a Hasid, Chabad.

45:45 Speaker 2 Let's make it right now. No need, no need to push it off. I think we have a wonderful, a wonderful foundation here to, to, to, to get there.

45:52 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:52 Speaker 2 So, um, what do you mean, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by the skill of noticing, and what do you mean by that being the skill of a Hasid?

46:09 Speaker 1 Well, I don't know where to... like what angle to bring it into, but essentially, our goal as Chabad Hasidim, Shluchim, Chabad Hasidim, I, I, I use that interchangeably, it's one and the same, uh, is in a certain sense that we have a mission.

46:28 Speaker 2 Right.

46:28 Speaker 1 We have a goal. And that mission and goal is to, you know, well,

46:35 Speaker 2 Right.

46:36 Speaker 1 Okay. One of the keywords is the

46:41 Speaker 2 Right.

46:41 Speaker 1 Is the reality as it is for itself.

46:44 Speaker 2 Right.

46:44 Speaker 1 Like, you know, the beGidra Tachaynim. To live beGidra, you have to notice.

46:50 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:50 Speaker 1 BeGidra Tachaynim. The generally a mystic is the idea where you live in a narrative that's outside of the reality. You don't notice.

46:57 Speaker 2 Mm.

46:58 Speaker 1 You don't pay attention. You're able to ignore.

47:01 Speaker 2 Right.

47:01 Speaker 1 Okay?

47:02 Speaker 2 Escape.

47:02 Speaker 1 Escape. A Chabad Hasid is not to escape. A Chabad Hasid is to engage.

47:07 Speaker 2 Right.

47:08 Speaker 1 To engage, you need to notice.

47:10 Speaker 2 Right.

47:11 Speaker 1 To engage, you need to, in a certain sense, step out of a narrative.

47:15 Speaker 2 Ah. Right.

47:16 Speaker 1 To step out of a narrative that preceded you into a certain circum- situation and see what is going on in that particular circumstance and then bring change to it.

47:27 Speaker 2 Mm.

47:28 Speaker 1 Okay? That is very hard to do, particularly as a mystic, I'm gonna go back, who... where we have so many strong narratives.

47:37 Speaker 2 Right.

47:37 Speaker 1 So many strong narratives and, and so many sanctified narratives and so many authentic narratives-

47:44 Speaker 2 Right

47:44 Speaker 1 ... that in a certain sense it makes it difficult for us to do our work, our job, our mission as Hasidim and Shluchim. The notice... Now, where is the space within which we do this? What do we need to notice? The notice begins first within ourselves.

48:02 Speaker 2 Mm.

48:02 Speaker 1 First within ourselves, and then in the particular orbit that we have, where, you know, whether it's in your little community, whether it's in amongst your friends, whether it's in, in your city, whatever your Shlichus may look like.

48:16 Speaker 2 Mm.

48:18 Speaker 1 And that's a skill that we need to develop.

48:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

48:22 Speaker 1 Which, uh, in a certain sense, we're going back to like the growing up years, right?

48:28 Speaker 2 Right.

48:28 Speaker 1 The growing up years, the Bachur years. There it's really not about noticing. There it's about learning the narratives.

48:34 Speaker 2 Interesting.

48:35 Speaker 1 Our... We're learning the narrative. We need, we need, we need to be fully, fully enmeshed in the narratives.

48:41 Speaker 2 Right. Indoctrination is not necessarily a bad, a bad term.

48:46 Speaker 1 It, it, it's, it, it's not indoc... Yeah, it's not a bad term at all. It's, it's-

48:49 Speaker 2 It doesn't have to be a bad term.

48:50 Speaker 1 It's not. It's development. The problem is-

48:52 Speaker 2 I'm saying soldiers are also indoctrinated.

48:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. Every, every... Yes.

48:55 Speaker 2 Everybody's indoctrinated.

48:55 Speaker 1 If you wanna do something great-

48:57 Speaker 2 Yeah

48:57 Speaker 1 ... you need to be- believe in something, connect to something great as well.

49:01 Speaker 2 Right.

49:01 Speaker 1 And that great thing precedes you, and it's given to you by great people.

49:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

49:06 Speaker 1 Okay? We need to, we need to, we need to adapt it, we need to be immersed in it.

49:11 Speaker 2 Mm.

49:11 Speaker 1 And that's what the Bachur years are. That's what Yeshivat Chachmeiim is or, or

49:17 Speaker 2 Right

49:17 Speaker 1 ... Vesivcha is. That's, that's what the education role is. However, there needs to be a shift-

49:22 Speaker 2 Mm

49:22 Speaker 1 ... at a certain point in time, and, and that's when, when you leave yeshiva, when you, you know, when you start a family, you need to shift away from the, away from focusing on the narrative to noticing what is happening in your reality.

49:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

49:37 Speaker 1 And, and then learn how to have agency over your reality by bringing change to it, positive change, which is ano- another word for growth. The thing though is, the challenge is we are, in yeshiva, we're f- so focused on the narrative, which again, I, I, I, I, I stated that, but... And we're, we're guided in it, but noticing-

50:05 Speaker 2 Right

50:06 Speaker 1 ... that we're not given guidance, that we have to figure out on our own.

50:08 Speaker 2 Right.

50:09 Speaker 1 And we don't have schools for that.

50:11 Speaker 2 Right.

50:11 Speaker 1 We don't have systems for that. We don't have relevant environments for that.

50:14 Speaker 2 Well, by definition, you can't, but you, you, you have, you have what I've... You have anti-noticing environments.

50:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. You have anti-noticing. But our goal, I think, to, to learn Chassidus-

50:24 Speaker 2 Right

50:24 Speaker 1 ... and, and, and, and, and that'll, I guess that'll take us to chaburans. Chaburans are the playground-

50:30 Speaker 2 Mm

50:30 Speaker 1 ... where noticing occurs.

50:31 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:32 Speaker 1 Meaning to say, when you're learning a Maimer, you're in the, you're in the narrative world.

50:37 Speaker 2 Right.

50:37 Speaker 1 Okay? When you are sort of coming home or riding the street or, or, or you're in the noticing phase, how do you bridge the two?

50:47 Speaker 2 Right.

50:47 Speaker 1 Where the bridging of the two occurs in the chaburan. Because a chaburan is both a conversation about the idea, the narrative, but it's also a conversation about your reality.

50:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

50:58 Speaker 1 What's going on in your life, what you're working through, how you're trying, and you're doing it with a peer, with friends.

51:04 Speaker 2 Right.

51:04 Speaker 1 And you're sharing, you're listening, you're, you're d- you're diving deep, and then you pause to sing, to zog a niggun, to, to take you places where you otherwise can't go, and it's done with love and care.

51:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's a, it's a very interesting way of looking at it, and, and in many ways is a very helpful way of looking at it because, you know, there's, there is this kind of tension between the brachot shiyar and, and, and the later, and afterwards, and, you know, it's like, you know, if it doesn't work for me later on, there's a, there is an impulse, and I'm guilty of it myself, to look back and say, "Okay, that's a lo- that's a load of rubbish. What were you doing? What were you doing there? What were you teaching me? What kind of nonsense?" And, you know, there... It certainly is a thing to think about and does push back against some things that I've probably said on this podcast, certainly said on this podcast, and said, you know, and think all, think all the time. What you, what you're suggesting is that there is a time and place for narratives. There's a time and place for even indoctrination. There's a time and place for put your mind aside. What is it, what is it saying in Chassidus? I don't know if it comes from Chassidus or comes from the Gemara, that in the time that you're sitting in front of your Rav as a Talmud, you, you, you close off your own thoughts and you're mekabel.

52:22 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

52:22 Speaker 2 There's a time to just be mekabel, be an empty vessel, and just accept and, and, and, and, and let knowledge and wisdom that predates you and is bigger than you and precedes you on every level, let it come in, give you something to work with.

52:34 Speaker 1 Yes.

52:35 Speaker 2 Right? Um, so it's definitely a, a... I, I accept that. It's something, it's something that, something that I have to think about, and I have to... It pushes back against some of my, my own priors. Um, and it help, it helps me frame it as well. I guess the question, the obvious question that you alluded to it as well is that the problem with, and we discussed earlier about narratives, is that when you're in the world of narratives, in many ways it's anti-noticing. It's not just that you don't notice. It's anti-noticing. Um, you know, and as I'm th- a- as I'm thinking about it, you know, I don't know that the two have to be opposites, right? Like, for example, you, you, I th- you mentioned mystics. I don't know if you mentioned Ashkachah Pratis, but, you know, the famous... I think it's from the Baal Shem Tov, maybe it comes from earlier, but the famous kind of story that we're told about Ashkachah Pratis is the leaf over the, the worm, right? The leaf blowing in the wind and eventually lands and it covers a worm. That's the ultimate noticing. You could talk about Ashkachah Pratis in very lofty, abstract terms, but noticing is picking up the leaf and seeing the worm, right? I, I think that's somewhere where, like, I- I don't know that the two have to be narrative up to marriage and then figure out how to notice on your own, um, when you're already outside of the kind of seclusion

53:57 Speaker 2 or, or protected space. I think the narrative is one of noticing.

54:05 Speaker 1 So we're taught that.

54:06 Speaker 2 Right.

54:07 Speaker 1 We're taught that. The narrative requires you to notice.

54:08 Speaker 2 Right.

54:08 Speaker 1 The narrative teaches you. The narrative teaches you about . The narrative teaches you about the idea of, of, of, of, of, of . It teaches you about, about, about . It teaches you that, but it's not the playground where you're actually practicing it. The, the... I wanna speak... The, the, the notice, the, the... I'll use the narra- narrative and noticing are in certain ways mutually are exclusive in some ways, in the sense that the narrative was written externally, outsourced.

54:39 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Same by the Rabbeim?

54:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, by the Rabbeim, by your Mashpiaim, whatever it may be.

54:43 Speaker 2 Right.

54:43 Speaker 1 Okay? Then, and, and, and we all... And the n- and the narrative we all share together, and the narrative has an element of authenticity to it. It's real. It's true.

54:53 Speaker 2 Right.

54:53 Speaker 1 Okay? The noticing is uniquely yours.

54:56 Speaker 2 Right.

54:57 Speaker 1 It's uniquely... So, so in, in a certain sense, it doesn't let... You know, you question its authenticity.

55:05 Speaker 2 Right.

55:06 Speaker 1 You c- but it is uniquely yours. It's what I call insourced.

55:11 Speaker 2 Uh.

55:12 Speaker 1 And it's why, in a certain sense, the Eishes Chayil fit. Ashkachah Pratis is for there to be a Ben Ziyafson and why the Eishes Chayil serves to be a Peretz Chen.

55:21 Speaker 2 Right.

55:21 Speaker 1 And each one of us have our unique realities that are so different, and we each have a mission of . That is our own personal lives, and noticing it and bringing change to it. The, the, the playground, I'll use... go to that word, or the, the, the factory where, uh, narratives occur is yeshiva. The factory we're noticing, and I'll go, I'll, uh, go to the word of aveida and aveida pnimis, meaning it's uniquely yours, uniquely mine. That occurs outside in a place where you are o- where you are alone.

55:56 Speaker 2 I, I, I, I accept the distinction of, of, of narrative and noticing. I'm not sure, though, that, that they have to be... And I also accept what you said about there's, there's something that's communal and there's individual, and by definition- You cannot have it both ways. Like, what is uniquely yours is uniquely yours and is terribly lonely. It's just how it is, right?

56:17 Speaker 1 Yes.

56:17 Speaker 2 You, you cannot have it both ways. You can't... At, at some point, re- you know, um, coming to terms with your existence and the way you, your, in your life means that you will have to figure it out on your own.

56:30 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

56:31 Speaker 2 The, the more... Right? And, you know, in many ways, this is-

56:34 Speaker 1 Yeah

56:34 Speaker 2 ... this is part of, I feel like the... I don't know. I shouldn't open this can of worms. The, the whole thing of therapy as, as the, the instinctio- like, as if the modus operandi of living your life in a way... No, you have to deal with it on your own. So yes, you can ask for assistance, but at some point you have to live on your own. Like, that... And that's not a problem. That's good. That's good.

56:56 Speaker 1 That's how life was built.

56:57 Speaker 2 Right. That's how life was built.

56:57 Speaker 1 That's how Hashem used to built us.

56:59 Speaker 2 Right. But I, I, I think, you know... No, so I, I ac- I accept the distinction. I accept the distinction. I think it's pretty straightforward. I, I just think though that... Here, here, here's a problem. When you have, when you have, when, when you have a yeshiva that basically teaches a narrative, and then that narrative by definition falls apart because now everybody's out on their own, whether it's on shlichus, which is limal'yosa, even in the eyes of yeshiva, or whether it's not so limal'yosa, they're just, uh, in business or whatever, living their lives, you know, the, the, the assumption that somehow the individual who has not been trained to think for themselves can somehow pick up the pieces on their own is asking someone to assemble an aircraft in midair.

57:46 Speaker 1 I'm ag- I agree with you on that.

57:47 Speaker 2 Right? And-

57:48 Speaker 1 Um, uh, the, the skill and the ability, yeah.

57:50 Speaker 2 Right.

57:50 Speaker 1 It, it's very hard and, and we're not taught it.

57:52 Speaker 2 We're not taught it.

57:53 Speaker 1 And, and-

57:53 Speaker 2 It has to be taught in yeshivas. I don't think it can be outsi-

57:56 Speaker 1 Yeah.

57:56 Speaker 2 'Cause you're, you're making the distinction between inside and outside yeshivas. No, it has to be taught in the yeshivas.

58:00 Speaker 1 Sure. I'm, I'm not, I'm not... I, I won't, I won't debate, I won't resist that. I think it has to be. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I just don't, I just, I, I, I, I just... I'm not, I'm not in the world of yeshivas.

58:11 Speaker 2 No, I'm not telling what yeshivas do either.

58:13 Speaker 1 Right. But, but, but-

58:13 Speaker 2 It's easy for me to talk about the chitzons

58:15 Speaker 1 ... but, but I do th- I, I, you know, I do think, I do think that in a certain sense, perhaps, you know, I had this, like, gedank once, that mashbim, before they become mashbim, they have to leave yeshiva and get a job for five years and just live in the world outside of yeshiva for five years or, or yeshiva as well, and then come back.

58:38 Speaker 2 I, I hate to inform you that some will accuse you of listening to this podcast, 'cause I think we spoke about it a few-

58:44 Speaker 1 Oh, okay

58:44 Speaker 2 ... a few weeks ago.

58:45 Speaker 1 Oh.

58:45 Speaker 2 So bar, so bar shkivanti. Bar shkivanti.

58:48 Speaker 1 The-

58:48 Speaker 2 And the idea... All ideas come from somewhere. I guess it came from you.

58:51 Speaker 1 No, I, it's just not... And in other words, m- m- many mashbim and rosh yeshivas are just bakur who-

58:58 Speaker 2 With white beards, yeah.

58:59 Speaker 1 We... Ba- yeah, or sometime, or what I call sometimes not the ba- not the mashbim or rosh yeshivas, I call just, just adults in general, many, many are called, they're children with mortgages.

59:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. Fair. Fair. Yeah.

59:09 Speaker 1 Growing up is a huge deal.

59:11 Speaker 2 Right. And it doesn't happen on its own.

59:13 Speaker 1 It, it can't happen on its own.

59:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. I was just thinking about it this morning, you know. Um, my, my eldest daughter, uh, is going to, went to camp for the first, for the first time, which is always, you know, a milestone, and in my view, a happy milestone. Um, and I was thinking, you know, like, uh, you know, the common kind of refrains that people, "Oh, it's, you know, how time flies. Crazy how she's grown up." You know, every, every other day I was like, "No. No. Time has passed for her, but also for me, and I'm not surprised by any of this. Like, have I not grown up in the past 10 years? Like, why, what's, what's so shocking? Like, what's so sh-" Like, and I, and I feel like in, in many ways, look, I, I, I love my daughter to death and, and, and it's been beautiful to see her flourish, but I'm not convinced that a, that from zero to 10 or one to 11 is necessarily a larger leap in, in thinking about the world than from 25 to 35, and I don't think it has to be. I... She's doing what she needs to do at her age, and at that age, I think it does come naturally, the curiosity and the growth kind of happens on its own, right? Physically and mentally. But at, at a later age, you're supposed to have, like you said, enough foundation, enough narrative, then now you grow, right? And, and,

1:00:31 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:00:31 Speaker 2 If you're not gonna grow taller, at least put on some muscle or at least don't grow the other way, you know.

1:00:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. No.

1:00:38 Speaker 2 Like, uh...

1:00:40 Speaker 1 You know, there, there's this, there's this notion that the best years of our lives were the bakur years when we were in yeshiva.

1:00:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:47 Speaker 1 I don't subscribe to that at all.

1:00:48 Speaker 2 Yeah. Good on you.

1:00:49 Speaker 1 I, I-

1:00:50 Speaker 2 Amen.

1:00:51 Speaker 1 The, the, the be- the... My best years, and I'm talking about spiritually, chidush and all that, is today.

1:00:58 Speaker 2 Right. And ahead of you.

1:00:59 Speaker 1 Far more... And ahead of me, but far more than my, in my, in my yeshiva years.

1:01:04 Speaker 2 Why do you say so?

1:01:07 Speaker 1 For one, I could just... The, the test of it is how I learn a Maimon today and how I learned a Maimon in yeshiva.

1:01:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:14 Speaker 1 If I learn a Maimon today, it's far richer, far deeper, far more meaningful-

1:01:19 Speaker 2 Mm

1:01:19 Speaker 1 ... than when I learned it as a bakur.

1:01:21 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:01:21 Speaker 1 And I was learning as a bakur.

1:01:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:23 Speaker 1 I learned. I put in, I put in a lot of hours in it, in chidush and in igra.

1:01:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:27 Speaker 1 But now I, where what I see in a Maimon, what I learn in a Maimon is so much more exciting, so much deeper, so much more alive and re- and relevant.

1:01:36 Speaker 2 How much of that has to do with the fact that it's simply a choice now? Like, you have to choose to do that compared to back then.

1:01:42 Speaker 1 No, it was a choice then too. I could've-

1:01:43 Speaker 2 Oh, it was a choice

1:01:44 Speaker 1 ... I could, I could, I could, I could've just bummed around.

1:01:46 Speaker 2 I see. I see.

1:01:47 Speaker 1 It could... It was, it was a choice then.

1:01:48 Speaker 2 I see.

1:01:48 Speaker 1 But, but, but, but my, my life experience, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my needing to think things deeper and in a more p- practical way, meaningful, a realistic way r- requires me to appreciate and push into the Maimon in a way that otherwise I was, I, I couldn't do.

1:02:11 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, no, I, I can second that. I can second that. I, uh, when I, when I t- when I do, when I do sit down and learn, and, um, it's, it's not as often as it should be, uh-

1:02:24 Speaker 1 We all suffer from that.

1:02:26 Speaker 2 No, I, I'm not saying it to be humble. It's literally

1:02:29 Speaker 1 Likewise. Likewise.

1:02:30 Speaker 2 You know, I'm not, I kinda wa- uh, I'm not, I'm not, like, you know, I'm not some kind of, uh, I'm not some kind of secret maskil over here. You know? You don't know about it 'cause it's not happening. But, um, you know, when I sit, when I do sit down, and usually it's a Shabbos morning or, or sometimes, you know, sometimes it happens in the middle of the week and I just, I don't know, I feel, I feel like either I don't have something on, on the docket for the day, or I feel like I need some... I don't know. Who knows why? You're right. When, when I sit, when I sit down, um, and I learn it, it's very often it's things that I've learned in the past. I return to things I've learned in the past, and it, it, it, it, it, it hits different.

1:03:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:03:09 Speaker 2 It hi- it hits different and, and the language is different. I have to... Yeah, the language is different, and I think a lot of it has to do also with the fact that, you know, your mind matures over time. I think scientifically your mind doesn't settle until you're 30. I think, um, I think that's, that's when people really, as a, on an average, settle down. It's way after your bar and bat mitzvah are. And so I don't think there's anything to dispute. I don't think there-

1:03:37 Speaker 1 Here's another thing besides your mind developing, and this is, this is a key over here, is your life experiences have accumulated and-

1:03:44 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I'm, I'm just adding to what you said. But yes

1:03:46 Speaker 1 ... and, and here's where problems c- here's where problems begin.

1:03:48 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

1:03:49 Speaker 1 Here's where problems begin. Your life experiences start accumulating.

1:03:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:53 Speaker 1 Meaning to say you got married, okay? You're now living with another person.

1:03:58 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:59 Speaker 1 Another human being who's very different than you.

1:04:01 Speaker 2 Yes.

1:04:02 Speaker 1 Okay?

1:04:02 Speaker 2 A woman.

1:04:03 Speaker 1 A woman, but als- both a woman and also another person.

1:04:07 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying coming out of yeshiva that's completely foreign to you.

1:04:10 Speaker 1 Right. But it take a couple years. You'll, you'll, you'll adjust.

1:04:12 Speaker 2 You get used to it.

1:04:12 Speaker 1 You'll get used to it.

1:04:14 Speaker 2 All right. All right, I'll take your-

1:04:14 Speaker 1 But-

1:04:14 Speaker 2 I'll take your word for it

1:04:15 Speaker 1 ... no, but the point is it's nothing to do with yeshiva. It's just the, the being of a man and being of a woman.

1:04:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:20 Speaker 1 Okay? And then there is when children come.

1:04:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:23 Speaker 1 And as they grow older, mortgages come, communities come, responsibilities come. All these realities start emerging. All these experiences start emerging.

1:04:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:32 Speaker 1 Now, there are a coup... How do you respond to that? So one way to respond to that is you stick into the, you stick in the nar- you stick into the, you stick to the narrative.

1:04:42 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:43 Speaker 1 You stick to the narrative that allows you to gloss over and to ignore the realities and experiences that emerge.

1:04:52 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:53 Speaker 1 And it works for the first five, 10, maybe 15, may- 10 years, but then s- one of two things happen. Either it just collapses, the realities just, just over- just overwhelm you-

1:05:05 Speaker 2 Right

1:05:05 Speaker 1 ... or another thing happens, is you remain static as a person. You don't grow. You don't change. You don't become something bigger and deeper as a result of the rich offerings that your life experience provide you.

1:05:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:05:21 Speaker 1 And, um, and, and that's where, I'm gonna go back to this, where noticing comes in, and then there's more than noticing. There's also taking, taking what you notice and, and, and making it into a life lesson, and then putting it into practice and changing. It's very hard. Adulting is hard.

1:05:34 Speaker 2 Adulting is hard.

1:05:35 Speaker 1 Adulting...

1:05:35 Speaker 2 And not, not on your college campus, shliach.

1:05:38 Speaker 1 Oh.

1:05:38 Speaker 2 The word adulting.

1:05:39 Speaker 1 My good- I mean, that's what we do with the students. That's, that's-

1:05:41 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:05:42 Speaker 1 ... what our shlichus is-

1:05:42 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:05:42 Speaker 1 ... to help them. If we want the, if we want, if you want our chil- our students-

1:05:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:05:46 Speaker 1 ... to change Yiddishkeit-wise, to be, to, to, to be deeper connected to Yiddishkeit and change in their lives, then we need to teach them how to change. I actually had an interesting change story.

1:05:57 Speaker 2 Go ahead.

1:05:58 Speaker 1 With Rabbi Dinstein z"l.

1:05:59 Speaker 2 Okay.

1:06:00 Speaker 1 I was in, uh, Tzemach Tzedek. It was a very transformative experience. I was in Tzemach Tzedek sh- for Shabbos, happened 10 years ago.

1:06:07 Speaker 2 Well, that shul is a transformative experience one way or another.

1:06:09 Speaker 1 So we were sitting next to each other, and I introduced myself as the shliach to Brandeis, and he happened to be, uh, honored, got an honorary degree from Brandeis before I even came.

1:06:18 Speaker 2 Ah, years earlier.

1:06:19 Speaker 1 Years earlier. By, by a few years. Two, three years. So, and, you know, and, and I was feeling really good about what we were doing on campus. We, you know, g- I, you know, we, we checked all the boxes, the numbers, the, the relationships, the what we call the impacts and the programs and blah. He asked me, "Are you changing lives?" I was like... I was taken aback. I was like, "Uh..." I started, like, stammering, and, uh, he says, "Well, if you're not changing lives, then kill yourself."

1:06:48 Speaker 2 What are you even doing here? He said the words kill yourself?

1:06:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, kill yourself. Then he asked me-

1:06:55 Speaker 2 Well, you have to paint the picture a little bit, Rabbi. Steinzaltz in Tzemach Tzedek Shul.

1:06:58 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:06:58 Speaker 2 Paint the picture a little bit.

1:06:59 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:07:00 Speaker 2 I mean, th- this is a, a small little shul.

1:07:03 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:07:03 Speaker 2 A small little shul, and Rabbi Steinzaltz would usually come to davening a little bit late, and-

1:07:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, 'cause you have to walk a distance.

1:07:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:07:09 Speaker 1 And it was a hot summer day.

1:07:10 Speaker 2 And I, I lived in Jerusalem for one summer.

1:07:12 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:07:12 Speaker 2 I re- and I, I davened with him once or twice. He w- he usually came late to davening, and, you know, everybody knows Rabbi Steinzaltz was this short, small man. He sits in the back of shul-

1:07:21 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:07:21 Speaker 2 ... very honestly-

1:07:21 Speaker 1 Where I was sitting, so.

1:07:23 Speaker 2 And you would think, if you didn't know better, that he is the shul let. He is laughing hysterically about who God knows what. And, yeah, and, he says, "Go kill yourself."

1:07:35 Speaker 1 And then he asks me, "So if you were to do it, what method of suicide would you choose?"

1:07:40 Speaker 2 That's what he told you?

1:07:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. So we went into a little conversation about that, and I made, I made a recommendation. He made another recommendation, and then we just moved on. But the point is, he asked me a very direct, pointed question. "Are you changing lives?"

1:07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:54 Speaker 1 "If you're not introducing change into people's lives, then who needs you?"

1:08:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:00 Speaker 1 "What are you doing?" I'll take that a little further. If I wanna change other people's lives, I need to learn how to bring change into my life.

1:08:08 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:10 Speaker 1 That's what Aveida is.

1:08:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:11 Speaker 1 That's what Aveida And I would even go as far as argue that's what the calling of Vatat itself is.

1:08:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:08:23 Speaker 1 And Gimel Tammuz, but could leave that for another time.

1:08:26 Speaker 2 No, let's, let's see if we can get there. I, I, I don't wanna s-- I don't wanna jump too fast. Uh, yeah, the ki- you m- you said so many things over there. Um, if you wanna change someone else's life, you have to change your life. Yeah, I think, I think going back to the idea of narrative, I think there is a understandable te-- I grew up on Shlichus.

1:08:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:08:48 Speaker 2 I grew up immersed in the narrative of Shlichus.

1:08:51 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:08:51 Speaker 2 And I, uh, for whatever one may think, I, I, I, I don't s-- I don't look at it nega- negatively. I think there's a lot of beauty to it. Um, you know, very often I regret that my kids aren't growing up with so- with a lot of that, of what I grew up with. You know, some things not, but a lot, yes. Um, and you know, one of the narratives of Shlichus is that we have, we have the deal, and we just have to... We have, we have, we have the stuff, and we have to share it with those people.

1:09:24 Speaker 1 You know what that makes us?

1:09:25 Speaker 2 But... Right. What's that?

1:09:26 Speaker 1 You know what that makes us?

1:09:26 Speaker 2 Missionaries.

1:09:27 Speaker 1 Salespeople.

1:09:28 Speaker 2 Salespeople. Yeah, and there's a famous line, I forget which they have said, "I'm not God's policeman, I'm God's salesman." And yeah, no comment. But-

1:09:36 Speaker 1 I, I disagree with that notion.

1:09:38 Speaker 2 Yeah. I, I assume. But I'm saying, like, not to beat up on a state, on a, on a throwaway line, but to me, based on what you're talking about, like, it's more that, like, how can you even sell change if you don't know what change is yourself? Right, when you... Not to mention that how can you sell change when what you're selling never changes itself, right? The Abster is, is, is the, is the, is the thing that's able to be non-changing and affecting change all at the same time. But, but you're not God, so stop playing God. Everybody else, if they want to... What, what's the saying in, in, in Chassidus? Anything that moves something, ko, ko, ko mania misne- misne-

1:10:21 Speaker 1 Misnaneah

1:10:21 Speaker 2 ... misnaneah.

1:10:22 Speaker 1 Misnaneah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's more a, a, um, it's a philo- philosophical-

1:10:27 Speaker 2 Yes, it comes from ear- comes from earlier

1:10:28 Speaker 1 ... Greek, Greek philosophy.

1:10:28 Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. So Aris- Aristotelian.

1:10:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:10:30 Speaker 2 But I'm saying it's quoted in Chassidus, right?

1:10:32 Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes.

1:10:32 Speaker 2 It comes from much earlier-

1:10:33 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:10:33 Speaker 2 ... um, that anything that, that moves has to be, has to be moved itself, right?

1:10:40 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:10:40 Speaker 2 And, like, the narrative of Shlichus very often is, or even Lubavitch in general is, we got the answers. Al tikra ve'yikra eleh ve'yakir. Like, the focus is not on ve'yikra, the focus is on ve'yakir. Whoever knows Aleph Bet needs to teach Aleph Bet. And, and I say, "Wait a second. Wait a second." It doesn't say... When you say al tikra ve'yikra eleh ve'yakir, it doesn't mean the ve'yikra disappears. It means that there's both.

1:11:01 Speaker 1 The nisah.

1:11:01 Speaker 2 There's both. And when it says that when you know Aleph, you teach Aleph, for God's sake, know Aleph, right? You cannot teach Aleph without knowing it. You cannot teach change without, without, without knowing change. I think Moshe Lim Gray made the comment on one of the earlier podcasts. He's like, he's like, I, I... He started getting into lifting weights, and he's like, "To, to make that part of my life was, was, was, was brutal." And here I'm, here I'm convincing people and demanding from people to basically upend not just their hour of the day of physical habits, but to upend their entire identity and understanding of the world. You cannot be a mystic if your life is static. Impossible.

1:11:39 Speaker 1 Y- y- y- yes. You can't... Yes. Yes. Yes, and, and yes, and yes, and yes, and yes, and yes.

1:11:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:49 Speaker 1 So much yes to what you're saying.

1:11:51 Speaker 2 Well, I'm agreeing with you, so

1:11:52 Speaker 1 No, I, I, I-

1:11:53 Speaker 2 Unless you've changed your mind.

1:11:54 Speaker 1 No, it, it, it's, it's un- unquestionably. Now-

1:11:58 Speaker 2 So we're talking, we're talking in connection, we're talksh- talking in connection to the, to the adult years of after yeshiva, and I, I do want, you know... Pa- part of, part of the richness of this experience of having this podcast is the feedback, and sometimes the feedback comes directly, people that know me or people find me out, and sometimes it comes secondhand. You know, someone forwards me a message or tells me about a comment that they got. And someone told me about a comment that they got. There was a conversation that was happening between him and someone else. I don't know who that other person is, but that other person is on Shlichus, from what I understood, close to ten years.

1:12:37 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:12:37 Speaker 2 At least over five years. And that person told the friend of mine that, you know, "In yeshiva, they told me ver--" They... I'm, I'm realizing as I get older, he said two things, and those two things broke me, okay? He says two things. He says, "First of all, I'm learning that in yeshiva they were very good at teaching us the nasah, but not so good at teaching us the nishma." He's like, "I am on Shlichus for a bunch of years, and if you ask me today, I can't explain to you why." That's number one.

1:13:11 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:13:12 Speaker 2 I, I, I'm kinda setting things up for you over here. I didn't even, I didn't even mean to, but I'm setting it up to you.

1:13:17 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:13:17 Speaker 2 And number two, and in a way this is more pertinent to our general conversation, he says, he says, "Look, as I g-" He says, "A few... As I've been getting older, I've been always telling myself that the voice that I should trust is my v- the voice from the bachur shiur. That voice is pure. That voice is idealistic. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's protected from the world. It's, you know, it's pure. What, what... The hegation that come from there, the feelings that I had then and the feelings that I remember from then, those are holy. And everything that comes after that, eh, the baal batish, you're lazy, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're empty, whatever, you know, it's come from nowhere," right? And, and he's like, "I, I'm realizing more and more that the, the, the questions that I have and the thoughts that I have today are also valid, and in a way more valid." And I... Y- and, and I... It, it, it broke me. It broke me, uh, because-

1:14:14 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:14:14 Speaker 2 ... because I, you know, not, not so much personally. You know, I think we all kind of have to go through some kind of development, and not all of it is easy. A lot of it is painful, but I- I'm not triggered personally by this kind of stuff. You know, I- I've dealt with it. I'm dealing with it. I'm, I'm okay, I feel, in this regard. But I know that this is everywhere. This is everywhere. This is everywhere. This, this, this, this... It's a massive crisis that we're t- that we're talking about here.

1:14:45 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:14:45 Speaker 2 Going from, going from narrative to noticing, the way you're putting it, is, is... leaves a lot of people in the lurch, in b- in no man's land.

1:14:59 Speaker 1 You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I am, I'm very reticent to blame what is called the system.

1:15:07 Speaker 2 Right. Well, the system doesn't exist.

1:15:09 Speaker 1 Okay, great. I'm glad we could agree on that. Exactly.

1:15:12 Speaker 2 What is a system?

1:15:13 Speaker 1 But we, uh, w- uh, I'm hesitant to, to say, "Well, in yeshiva they didn't teach me."

1:15:18 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:20 Speaker 1 For the love of God, grow up.

1:15:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:15:23 Speaker 1 No one owes you anything.