Ep. 34 // "Fantasy of Going Back" w/ Rabbi Moshe Greenwald

00:00 Speaker 1 Throughout my buffer years, I fantasized about having a time machine-

00:04 Speaker 2 Right

00:04 Speaker 1 ... and going back, that I could be by one more fabric-

00:08 Speaker 2 Right

00:08 Speaker 1 ... as a buffer, as an 18-year-old, as a 17-year-old, you know, just to be part of it, to stand at adult level and to have or to, or to go into Yahidis or to have just one moment, and I was in deep, deep anguish. And when I talk about it now, I, I, it, it still invokes-

00:26 Speaker 2 Right

00:26 Speaker 1 ... a lot of feelings.

00:30 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Benjie Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. We're here with, uh, Rabbi Moshe Greenwald from Los Angeles. Um, I know, I know Moshe's brothers pretty well. I was in yeshiva with Zevi. I know Shloime, we do work together. But I also know Moshe from a ways back. Uh, there were a couple summers that you were driving or ha- hanging around my grandfather.

01:10 Speaker 1 Yep.

01:11 Speaker 2 Uh, up and down to camp in Philadelphia and New York. Um, you know, for those who have-- who didn't spend time with him on the road back in those days, it's hard to convince you the, the kind of driving and the amount of driving that was going on.

01:25 Speaker 1 We had a lot of adventures.

01:27 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Maybe we'll get to that too, but that's-

01:29 Speaker 1 Yeah

01:29 Speaker 2 ... not what you're here for today. I, I do want to, I, I, I wanna hear your story. Uh, we already started talking about it ahead, a-ahead of time and today, and it's really interesting. But I want to, I wanna frame it with a moment that I remember, an encounter that I had with you. I just wanna kinda s-- For some reason, I feel like I wanna start with that moment. And that was, so we had met in the summer when I think you were still single. Um, then you got married, obviously. And then I remember being in Khan's Supermarket. For some reason, I remember this like yesterday, and I don't have photographic memory. I don't remember everything that happened in my life. But I remember like yesterday, I'm in Khan's, and Moshe Greenwald, who I know well, like, or I, I know you know who I am, I know who you are, but we're, we're like, you're older than me. We're not like, you know, close friends. You come into Khan's bursting with excitement, and I think you gave me a big hug. You told me you just got accepted, or you just got a place for shlichus in California, and you had to like, um, you had to start raising money. I think that was a tonight. You had to raise money before you set out. You were like on cloud nine.

02:37 Speaker 1 I don't, I don't remember this. Wow.

02:40 Speaker 2 I remember it like yesterday. And, uh, I, I, I just think that's, uh, you know, it's interesting. That, that to me, to be honest, that was the last I remember of you until you, you know, you h-heard about the podcast, and you heard a couple episodes, and you reached out to me, and I think that was, that was the next time we spoke between those two encounters. So I think-

03:00 Speaker 1 We had a couple, uh, Facebook, uh, encounters back in the day when I was, uh, active on Facebook, but it's been a long time.

03:07 Speaker 2 Oh, it was about the Sevitar?

03:09 Speaker 1 No. No, no.

03:11 Speaker 2 About what?

03:12 Speaker 1 Uh-

03:13 Speaker 2 Like, like, like back and forths maybe?

03:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:16 Speaker 2 Yeah. Those were fun times. Yeah. For Face- Facebook was a fun time. Um, yeah, but no, I'm saying in, in like, in person, like, like, like real conversation or real-

03:27 Speaker 1 Right

03:27 Speaker 2 ... moments. The, the, the... I, I remember that moment in Khan's, and then I remember, I remem-remember, uh, and then we started talking about the con-- about this podcast, and I think that's an interesting framing, I think it's-

03:43 Speaker 1 Right

03:43 Speaker 2 ... for you, and I think we both know where that, where that kinda lands us. But, um, we'll get back to it in the conversation. I just wanted to make sure that I kinda put it out there. So-

03:52 Speaker 1 I don't remember this encounter, but I must... It was right after I, I, I got the shlichus?

03:57 Speaker 2 It must have been like within hours.

03:59 Speaker 1 Wow.

04:00 Speaker 2 Yeah.

04:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

04:03 Speaker 1 I, uh, I fought hard for that shlichus.

04:07 Speaker 2 Right.

04:08 Speaker 1 I got married and started looking right away, um, immediately to start to try to find something, and my wife and I looked into a bunch of places, and it was probably close to a two and a half year ordeal until we finally got it.

04:26 Speaker 2 Right.

04:26 Speaker 1 And it was not, it was not easy to, to, to land a shlichus.

04:30 Speaker 2 Right. And today, you're still there?

04:33 Speaker 1 I'm still there, yeah.

04:34 Speaker 2 And-

04:34 Speaker 1 Downtown Los Angeles

04:35 Speaker 2 ... downtown Los Angeles. Downtown Los Angeles. Yeah. So I, I think that's an interesting moment to kind of put on the table, and we'll get back to it.

04:43 Speaker 1 Okay.

04:44 Speaker 2 Um, so why don't you start with your, you know, why don't you tell, why don't you tell us where you're from and where you grew up and-

04:50 Speaker 1 I grew up in, uh, Long Beach, California.

04:53 Speaker 2 Right.

04:53 Speaker 1 My father is a shliach. My parents are shlichim there. Um, they moved out a couple months before I was born, uh, 1981. And-

05:05 Speaker 2 You're the eldest?

05:06 Speaker 1 I'm the oldest, yeah.

05:08 Speaker 2 Right.

05:08 Speaker 1 Like you, right?

05:09 Speaker 2 Yes, sir.

05:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's a special package.

05:14 Speaker 2 That's a different podcast.

05:15 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, yeah, I grew up in, uh, in a interesting community. Long Beach is a very interesting community.

05:26 Speaker 2 Right.

05:26 Speaker 1 So Long Beach, um, when Long Beach was started in the '60s, it became a, um, a exemplar example. It, it became, it became, uh, one of the, the, the, the prime jewels of Lubavitch. Why? Because they had made a bunch of baal teshuvas-

05:49 Speaker 2 Mm

05:49 Speaker 1 ... um, and successful baal teshuvas.

05:51 Speaker 2 Who's they? Rabbi Newman?

05:52 Speaker 1 It started with, with, uh, Rabbi Pokarsky.

05:56 Speaker 2 Rabbi Fran?

05:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

05:57 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah?

05:58 Speaker 1 He was there. Um, and he, he got it launched, and then under him was, uh, uh, Gershon Schusterman.

06:04 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:05 Speaker 1 Um, and then Rabbi Newman, Rabbi Engel Um, I believe they came within a few years of each other, um, but they came out in the '60s.

06:14 Speaker 2 Mm.

06:14 Speaker 1 And they were very, very much Liyah in, um, in, in winning over

06:25 Speaker 2 Right

06:25 Speaker 1 ... a, a group of young dynamic doctors and attorneys. A lot of doctors. There were a lot of doctors. A lot of the kids who I was friends with, their parents were doctors. A lot of doctors in the community.

06:37 Speaker 2 So there was already a, a vibrant Jewish community, just not religious, or they were-

06:42 Speaker 1 No. Uh, it was a, a me- medium size.

06:44 Speaker 2 Right.

06:44 Speaker 1 Long Beach is, uh... it's a, it's a large city.

06:47 Speaker 2 Right.

06:48 Speaker 1 Um, but it's, it's considered to be like a suburb of Los Angeles, but it's not a suburb. It's its own city. I think it's the fifth largest city in, in California.

06:57 Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's a good hour's drive out of LA, more, no?

07:00 Speaker 1 Mm, half hour, 30 minutes.

07:01 Speaker 2 In, in LA traffic?

07:03 Speaker 1 Depends on the traffic.

07:03 Speaker 2 Right.

07:03 Speaker 1 Depends on the traffic.

07:04 Speaker 2 Right.

07:05 Speaker 1 On a, on a Motzei Shabbos and, and with, you know, at 11 o'clock you can get the... you can get in 18 minutes, 20 minutes.

07:12 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

07:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:13 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

07:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. I was, uh, I, I was in LA in Yeshiva for two years, so it's like-

07:17 Speaker 1 It seems like it's a lot further-

07:18 Speaker 2 Right

07:18 Speaker 1 ... because the traffic is notorious in, uh-

07:20 Speaker 2 Right

07:20 Speaker 1 ... in California.

07:22 Speaker 2 Right.

07:23 Speaker 1 Um, so it was a community where you had one shul. Um, there was no other Orthodox shuls there. Um, there was a young Israel that tried, they failed, uh, and, and pretty much you had this, a small community, let's say 100 families or so.

07:43 Speaker 2 So Lubavitch was the one shul?

07:45 Speaker 1 Lubavitch is the one shul.

07:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:46 Speaker 1 With, uh, quite a few other people. You had, you had modern Orthodox.

07:51 Speaker 2 Right.

07:51 Speaker 1 You had the few Litvaks.

07:52 Speaker 2 Right.

07:53 Speaker 1 But it was mainly Baal Teshuvas, and-

07:54 Speaker 2 I was in that shul. I was in that shul once.

07:56 Speaker 1 Right. Congregation Lubavitch on, uh, Atlantic.

07:59 Speaker 2 Right.

07:59 Speaker 1 Um-

08:00 Speaker 2 Actually, my, I was with my, with my grandfather. There was a guy, this guy there, Bumi.

08:04 Speaker 1 Bumi Stern.

08:05 Speaker 2 Bumi Stern's from-

08:06 Speaker 1 Olam HaBa, yeah

08:07 Speaker 2 ... he's from Philadelphia.

08:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:09 Speaker 2 And so he got my grandfather once when I was with him in California to come for a bris.

08:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:13 Speaker 2 So that was-- I made it to the shul there.

08:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

08:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:17 Speaker 1 Bumi was a big chassid of your, your grandfather.

08:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, he, he... His mother literally lived-

08:22 Speaker 1 Yeah

08:22 Speaker 2 ... just down the street from my grandparents.

08:23 Speaker 1 I-- When I was helping your father that year, um, I spent 12 months with your grandfather, sorry.

08:28 Speaker 2 Oh, it was 12 months? I thought-

08:29 Speaker 1 12 months, yeah

08:29 Speaker 2 ... it was just a summer. Okay.

08:30 Speaker 1 No, it wasn't just a su- it started with the summer.

08:32 Speaker 2 Okay.

08:33 Speaker 1 And then, uh-

08:34 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. Nice

08:34 Speaker 1 ... spent the full year with him. Um, so E- Erev Yom Kippur, I brought kaparos to her house.

08:43 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

08:43 Speaker 1 Your fa- your grandfather sent me with chickens to do kaparos with, uh-

08:48 Speaker 2 Right

08:48 Speaker 1 ... Bumi's mother.

08:50 Speaker 2 Right.

08:50 Speaker 1 She was a special woman, I remember.

08:52 Speaker 2 Yeah.

08:52 Speaker 1 And, uh-

08:54 Speaker 2 Yeah

08:54 Speaker 1 ... and then I gave Bumi a report, and he was so excited and so proud. Bumi was a character.

08:59 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

09:00 Speaker 1 He was a real character.

09:00 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, which, yes, is my video production company. At Yuvala Media, we believe in the same principles as this podcast. Namely, that in our communities, there are just so many stories worth sharing and worth telling, and that in the end, a good story is always so much more. Over the past few years, we have helped dozens of nonprofits, companies, and families share their very precious stories with the community. If you're looking to share your story, please don't hesitate to reach out to us for a free consultation at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that's hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found below as well. For now, let's get back to the podcast. Yeah. So you were saying that there's one shul with-

09:47 Speaker 1 So there was one shul.

09:48 Speaker 2 Right.

09:48 Speaker 1 Um, the Shluchim was my parents and a few other families. Um, there were a few girls my age that were the children of Shluchim, and a couple boys that were a little bit older than me. But in my class, I was the only one who was, you know, from, from Kirsch Liyah. There were some children of Baal Teshuva. Um-

10:11 Speaker 2 Right

10:12 Speaker 1 ... so I always felt that I was in, in two worlds.

10:18 Speaker 2 Right.

10:18 Speaker 1 When I was in Long Beach, I was the Liyah's kid.

10:22 Speaker 2 Right.

10:22 Speaker 1 I was the, the Hasidisha one.

10:24 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

10:25 Speaker 1 Um, and coming here to Crown Heights, which we would come every year, minimum of one time a year, um, Pesach, we came every year to, to be by, to be with the rabbi for Pesach. Um, but then many years there were multiple times a year I would come.

10:43 Speaker 2 Right.

10:43 Speaker 1 And I felt, uh, with my cousins and with my Crown Heights friends, I felt very much a-

10:49 Speaker 2 Californian

10:50 Speaker 1 ... I was a Californian. I was other. I was different.

10:54 Speaker 2 Right.

10:55 Speaker 1 Um-

10:56 Speaker 2 Right

10:56 Speaker 1 ... and, uh, that was, that, that, that's a part of my story as well.

11:01 Speaker 2 Right.

11:02 Speaker 1 You know? Um, the roles get flipped as I cross, uh, the country-

11:08 Speaker 2 Right

11:08 Speaker 1 ... where suddenly I'm the, the... they used to call me the wild Indian, the bum.

11:14 Speaker 2 Right.

11:14 Speaker 1 The, uh, the, the, the doesn't even know Yiddish, you know, that, that, that kid. But, uh-

11:22 Speaker 2 Right

11:22 Speaker 1 ... I had, I had a lot of experiences here in Crown Heights. Um-

11:25 Speaker 2 As long as they didn't call you a Roshambo.

11:27 Speaker 1 They didn't call me a Roshambo.

11:29 Speaker 2 They didn't know. We'll get to that too.

11:31 Speaker 1 They didn't know. But they knew my Zayda.

11:33 Speaker 2 Right.

11:34 Speaker 1 My Zayda was very well known.

11:35 Speaker 2 Yeah, but I, I remember if he brings for us, uh, Rabbi Greenwald's, and I don't think... Or maybe we just were s- we didn't realize, but, like, he wasn't... he was seen, like, as a chassid from our Roshambo as your, your Roshambo. Like, you-

11:47 Speaker 1 But he was a chassid from our Roshambo. See, that's-

11:49 Speaker 2 I, I understand.

11:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:50 Speaker 2 But so, like, we didn't get past that to like, oh, he's also your Roshambo. You know? We were just like, you know, younger and, and more innocent and less, less, you know, uh, less making everybody into categories. Um, yeah, I re- I remember if bringing with your grandfather, Rabbi Greenwald.

12:07 Speaker 1 Where was this?

12:08 Speaker 2 I think it was in Mar... I'm trying to... I think it was in-

12:10 Speaker 1 Marston?

12:10 Speaker 2 ... Marston. I'm try- I'm trying to figure out how he ended up there.

12:12 Speaker 1 He would come often to Marston because he had a daughter that lived there.

12:15 Speaker 2 Who was that?

12:16 Speaker 1 Leah Strokes. And Chaim Struck's house

12:18 Speaker 2 Ah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. That's what it was. Yeah.

12:20 Speaker 1 And she was sick.

12:21 Speaker 2 No, that... So this was before any, uh... Oh, maybe, maybe she was sick and nobody else knew. But this was before, like, uh, I think it was just, I think we were there in the summer, and he was just visiting. Could that be? Or he only came to visit when she was sick?

12:33 Speaker 1 No, he would come before. Um-

12:35 Speaker 2 So I don't remember which year it was. I don't remember, like, knowing about anything with the Struks'.

12:40 Speaker 1 Right.

12:41 Speaker 2 Um, so yeah, I actually, I actually, I actually met your uncle, who was a fabulous man. That was Struks. Um, but so I remember a farbrengen with him. We were there in the summer, and he farbrengened, and yeah, it was, it was very cool.

12:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:56 Speaker 2 It was very cool. I, I, like I told you, I don't have a photographic memory, so I don't remember what he said.

13:01 Speaker 1 He was a dynamic, he was a dynamic person.

13:02 Speaker 2 But I remember, I remember there being an impression there. I remember, I remember to this day that we, we had that farbrengen. Yeah. Uh, y- you know, it's really interesting that you talk about, you know, like the, you know, feeling, never feeling quite in place. When you're in California, you're, you're the Lubavitch Crown Heights-er, and when you're in Crown Heights, you're the Ohel of California or whatever.

13:24 Speaker 1 That was very much my story.

13:25 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. You know, it, it's, it's... You know, obviously with shluchim's kids it's, it's, it's far more pronounced and, you know, it's much more obvious. Um, but yeah, I think, I think it's just, I think it's just a feature of... Like, 'cause you're talking here, you're talking about growing up in the Lubavitch community.

13:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

13:49 Speaker 2 A smaller community, which is also a more, like, complicated community, where there's a group of shluchim, a group of mikurevavim, a group of Baalei Teshuva, there's a group of non-Orthodox. Like, it's, it's more of a hodgepodge. It's, it's Or Eretz-

14:00 Speaker 1 Very, very much so.

14:02 Speaker 2 Right. Or Eretz Tzadik community.

14:03 Speaker 1 Right.

14:03 Speaker 2 And, like, then-

14:05 Speaker 1 And when Crown Heights-ers would come for simchas-

14:08 Speaker 2 Right

14:08 Speaker 1 ... or come to visit their relatives, there was a lot of making fun of the community.

14:12 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

14:13 Speaker 1 There was a lot of mocking.

14:14 Speaker 2 Right.

14:14 Speaker 1 Oh, you have shalas shudis.

14:16 Speaker 2 Right.

14:16 Speaker 1 Oh, you're singing these-

14:17 Speaker 2 Uh

14:17 Speaker 1 ... these weird little Chabadnik songs. What's wrong with you guys?

14:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:20 Speaker 1 What's their... And, and I would try to defend the place, you know? "What do you mean?" It's, it's-

14:24 Speaker 2 You don't have to defend it. You have to let them-

14:26 Speaker 1 I was a kid

14:26 Speaker 2 ... s- you have to let them sing the songs a little bit and eat the shalas shudis, and before you know it, they're like, "Oh, wait a second. This is this is enjoyable."

14:34 Speaker 1 Right.

14:35 Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, but as a kid you don't think that, you don't think that far ahead. Right. Yeah, so, you know, so, like, one way of framing it is that, like, you know, it's this, this, this story of there's an inside and an outside. You know, there's like inside Lubavitch is Crown Heights, and the outsider, and the outsider complex, which is real. I'm not, I'm not trying to say it's not real, you know. But I've been reading recently-

14:55 Speaker 1 You have to understand something. My, the house that I was raised in-

14:59 Speaker 2 Right

14:59 Speaker 1 ... my parents were both very, very, uh,

15:05 Speaker 2 And your mother's from Crown Heights, isn't she?

15:06 Speaker 1 My mother's from Crown Heights, and very much proud of her Crown Heights identity.

15:10 Speaker 2 She, she-

15:10 Speaker 1 She hasn't lived there for 43 years and still considers herself a Crown Heights-er.

15:14 Speaker 2 She's a nemesis, right?

15:15 Speaker 1 She's a nemesis.

15:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yossi, Yossi-

15:16 Speaker 1 She's older sister

15:17 Speaker 2 ... the, the, the f- the first-

15:18 Speaker 1 First and third, yeah

15:18 Speaker 2 ... the first, uh, the first guy in the pod is your uncle, yeah.

15:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

15:21 Speaker 2 Yeah.

15:22 Speaker 1 My mother, when I was a little kid, I mean, for as far back as I can remember, would try to hammer home that this is not your real home. Your real home is Crown Heights.

15:34 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

15:35 Speaker 1 If you would live in Crown Heights, you would be this, and if you would live in Crown Heights, you'd be that. I, I- I'm not saying I agree with that approach. I know it came with, from the best place in her heart.

15:44 Speaker 2 Right.

15:44 Speaker 1 Um, and she really wanted that.

15:46 Speaker 2 Right.

15:49 Speaker 1 Those were the tools that she was given, and those were the, the way-

15:52 Speaker 2 Absolutely

15:52 Speaker 1 ... that she felt, uh, her best haskafas would be to the Rebbe, that we're here because we're on shlichus, but ideally, we should be in Crown Heights. Ideally, you should be like your cousins. Ideally, you should be like those-

16:06 Speaker 2 Right

16:06 Speaker 1 ... uh, kids. And it left a, it left a strong impression. It was not, it was not fun or easy to hear that all the time.

16:15 Speaker 2 Look, I re- I respect very much the way you just framed it. Um, I think, uh, I think I see it very much in that way as well. You know, I think, you know, you could look at how your parents raised you and have questions about it, um, but instead of turning left to resentment and, you know, like, why, why, how dare, how dare they did that or why do they do it, it's more like understanding that there was, th- they were, they were in uncharted territory.

16:42 Speaker 1 It came from the deepest place of, of trying to bring their children up-

16:46 Speaker 2 Right

16:46 Speaker 1 ... in, in the right way.

16:47 Speaker 2 Of concern, right.

16:48 Speaker 1 Yeah.

16:49 Speaker 2 And, and they were in uncharted territory.

16:50 Speaker 1 And they were concerned. They were concerned that all my classmates were, uh, kids that had televisions in their homes-

16:58 Speaker 2 Exactly

16:58 Speaker 1 ... movies in their homes, uh, pets, dogs. Uh-

17:01 Speaker 2 Exactly

17:01 Speaker 1 ... I, I became an animal lover when I was a very little kid.

17:04 Speaker 2 Oy vey.

17:04 Speaker 1 And I still till today I love animals.

17:06 Speaker 2 Oy vey.

17:06 Speaker 1 Um, and I would cry and beg for a dog.

17:09 Speaker 2 Right.

17:09 Speaker 1 And my parents were like, "What?" "You're not getting a dog." So they, they compromised and they got me a, a parakeet-

17:16 Speaker 2 That's good

17:16 Speaker 1 ... which died.

17:16 Speaker 2 I thought it was gonna be a hamster.

17:17 Speaker 1 And then two chickens that died.

17:19 Speaker 2 I thought it was gonna be a hamster.

17:20 Speaker 1 No hamster, no nothing not kosher.

17:22 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

17:22 Speaker 1 So a whole series of goldfish-

17:24 Speaker 2 Wait, parakeets are kosher?

17:26 Speaker 1 No, they're not, but, uh, birds are different. I don't know what birds-

17:29 Speaker 2 I mean, they-

17:29 Speaker 1 Birds are different

17:30 Speaker 2 ... th- they are. I mean-

17:31 Speaker 1 Um

17:31 Speaker 2 ... they, technically they are, but-

17:33 Speaker 1 And, and these were my friends. Um, these were the kids. The, the, the, the, the, the Freids and the Goodmans and the Saromiks and-

17:40 Speaker 2 Right

17:40 Speaker 1 ... you know, all these... And-

17:42 Speaker 2 Oh, Aaron Fried, the-

17:43 Speaker 1 Aaron's a dear friend till today.

17:45 Speaker 2 I know Aaron.

17:45 Speaker 1 And, and I grew up with him and his, his brothers.

17:49 Speaker 2 Right.

17:50 Speaker 1 Um, their house was like a second house, and that wasn't always easy on my parents.

17:54 Speaker 2 No.

17:55 Speaker 1 Um...

17:56 Speaker 2 Yeah, look, this is a story of shlichus today. This is a story of shlichus, where shlichus kids, um... I had it a little bit less than my younger siblings simply because there were less Jewish kids my age in Hong Kong, but my younger siblings had full classes of Jewish kids and classmates, and they stayed in Hong Kong till they were older, and to this day, many of their ... Hong Kong classmates are their closest friends.

18:19 Speaker 1 Right.

18:20 Speaker 2 And in many cases in Hong Kong, they weren't at all religious. They were just very proudly Jewish. So-

18:25 Speaker 1 But half of my class in Hebrew Academy, those were the Long Beach kids. But H- Hebrew Academy attracted kids from 30 miles in every direction.

18:34 Speaker 2 Right.

18:35 Speaker 1 So Hebrew Academy was in Orange County-

18:37 Speaker 2 Right

18:37 Speaker 1 ... which was further south towards San Diego in, on the border of Huntington Beach. It's still there today.

18:42 Speaker 2 Right.

18:42 Speaker 1 Huntington Beach, my parents are still, uh, in the school. Um-

18:46 Speaker 2 They founded the school or they-

18:48 Speaker 1 My parents? No. My parents came afterwards. So, uh, Pakarsky and, and Schusterman and Newman founded the school.

18:55 Speaker 2 Interesting.

18:55 Speaker 1 The school started in Long Beach, but very quickly they bought a property, uh, an old public school in... It's on the border of Westminster and Huntington Beach. Um-

19:05 Speaker 2 That's such a fascinating parsha in general, that there was a time where it seems like the focal point of Shlichus was to open up schools.

19:12 Speaker 1 That was very much their focal point. And they, they, they-

19:15 Speaker 2 But that's, that changed somehow.

19:18 Speaker 1 Um-

19:19 Speaker 2 Not, not, I'm not saying in Long Beach, in general, like...

19:22 Speaker 1 Well, I think it depends on, on the place.

19:24 Speaker 2 Right.

19:25 Speaker 1 In Downtown LA, I did absolutely... Over the past, uh, 17 years, I've done nothing for children, zero. Because there are no children.

19:35 Speaker 2 Right. Fair enough.

19:36 Speaker 1 And I had all these dreams to open up a, a preschool or a nursery for the working mothers and the working, uh-

19:44 Speaker 2 Right

19:44 Speaker 1 ... young parents, but, uh, it's not... The whole neighborhood isn't conducive, and that's part of the problem with, uh, Downtown LA. Part of the challenge is there is that we don't keep any families there.

19:54 Speaker 2 They move out the second they have kids.

19:55 Speaker 1 They move out the second they have kids. But not only because there's not an infrastructure for children.

20:00 Speaker 2 Right.

20:00 Speaker 1 It's because it's a very unsafe and, uh, the-- it's a, it's a dangerous place right now, and it has been for years.

20:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

20:07 Speaker 1 When we moved there, it wasn't dangerous, but-

20:09 Speaker 2 It wasn't?

20:09 Speaker 1 No.

20:10 Speaker 2 I mean-

20:10 Speaker 1 It was, it was rough.

20:11 Speaker 2 Right.

20:11 Speaker 1 You were on Shlichus in LA.

20:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. I never made it to Downtown LA.

20:14 Speaker 1 You never did Meztaim there?

20:15 Speaker 2 No. I-

20:15 Speaker 1 The main Meztaim were there

20:17 Speaker 2 ... I was in Marina del Rey area. But yeah, I mean, uh, everybody knows what's going in California. I've been in California recently, and it's f- you know, it's sad to see what's gone and what's-

20:25 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah

20:25 Speaker 2 ... what's happened in LA. Like, yeah, you know. I, and my guess is that when you moved there, it was edgy and-

20:31 Speaker 1 It was edgy.

20:32 Speaker 2 And I think-

20:32 Speaker 1 It was, it was-

20:32 Speaker 2 ... gentrified

20:33 Speaker 1 ... it was gentrifying. It was very much on the rise.

20:35 Speaker 2 Right.

20:36 Speaker 1 This was 2007. Um-

20:38 Speaker 2 Right

20:38 Speaker 1 ... the resurgence started in 1999 slowly.

20:41 Speaker 2 Right.

20:41 Speaker 1 And then from 2003, 2004, there was a, a big uptick of conversion-

20:47 Speaker 2 Right

20:47 Speaker 1 ... of these old dilapidated, um, buildings, office buildings into lofts, and it became very cool and very trendy, and a lot of young people moving in there. And, uh, we were excited. I was very excited. Um, it was not easy from day one, 'cause there was, there was a lot of, uh... There was a huge homeless problem.

21:08 Speaker 2 Right.

21:08 Speaker 1 You know, the Californians called it a, a, under, a, a, a unsheltered population, under-housed people. No, it's a homeless problem. Um-

21:16 Speaker 2 Yeah

21:16 Speaker 1 ... and I'm actually, uh... It's, it's such a, a, an issue in California, the homelessness, and it's one where people refuse to look at it. Um, they refuse to look at it with, uh, realistically, and I became an expert on homelessness, unfortunately.

21:33 Speaker 2 Right.

21:33 Speaker 1 Um, I've read so much, and I've deep dived into the issue because it directly affected my life.

21:39 Speaker 2 Right.

21:40 Speaker 1 I watched, um, my, my, my neighborhood of where I lived and brought up my kids go from rough to bad to worse to just a disaster of a place, um-

21:56 Speaker 2 Right

21:57 Speaker 1 ... in terms of safety and cleanliness and security, and just, uh, it became really untenable. Um-

22:03 Speaker 2 You don't have the luxury of trying to abstract it away and talk about it in fancy terms that help you sleep at night.

22:09 Speaker 1 Not at all.

22:10 Speaker 2 Right.

22:10 Speaker 1 And, and it's so interesting because the neighborhood attracts liberals, and it... Uh, my wife and I used to laugh how the people that would move into the area and that would show up at our Shabbos table after meeting us, and me, uh, coaxing and, and, and trying to bring them in, uh, virtually almost all of them would, you know, newly found in the neighborhood, and they would preach about, you know, the injustices of homelessness and-

22:42 Speaker 2 Yeah

22:42 Speaker 1 ... and how the income inequality in California is just so terrible, and the lack of, uh, of, uh, affordable housing.

22:51 Speaker 2 Right.

22:51 Speaker 1 And all this nonsense. And without, without exception-

22:57 Speaker 2 Yeah

22:57 Speaker 1 ... within a year, they were either out, they either moved out, because once your car is broken into two or three times and your windows are smashed-

23:05 Speaker 2 Right

23:05 Speaker 1 ... and you're slipping and sliding in human feces, and you're, uh, dodging the heroin needles on the floor, and virtually s- uh, uh, playing hopscotch over homeless, uh, some who are barely alive-

23:18 Speaker 2 Right

23:18 Speaker 1 ... um, you change your tune quickly. Either that, either they moved out or they were no longer, uh, so, so empathetic, uh, on, on-

23:29 Speaker 2 Yeah

23:29 Speaker 1 ... on the issue. The people with the empathy are all the Bernie Sanders crowd and all the far left that live in the adjacent areas-

23:36 Speaker 2 Right

23:36 Speaker 1 ... of downtown. Until today, tr- uh, cause so much, um, chaos and problems by ideological, um, by, with, with ideological, um, um, um, zest.

23:52 Speaker 2 Right.

23:52 Speaker 1 And, uh, and, and they're-- But, and, and these are the same people that are showing up now every single Shabbos, almost every Shabbos since October 7th, in massive anti-Israel demonstrations, which, uh, is just a, a, a joy for me to experience every Shabbos out my window from the river to the sea.

24:11 Speaker 2 Right.

24:11 Speaker 1 With the same shrill voice. Always some shrill 20-year-old girl.

24:15 Speaker 2 Well, the g- the good news is, the good news is, is, is that, you know, it's coming from the same place of stupidity, and you know that. I mean, that's the good news. The bad news is that st- stupidity has never stopped bad ideas from taking hold. Um-

24:29 Speaker 1 People buy into it, and when they see that it's failing, uh, it, it's incredible to see how they're doubling down.

24:36 Speaker 2 Yeah.

24:37 Speaker 1 They're doubling down. California's doubling down on its failing policies.

24:43 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, for-- I wanna take a wire and just-

24:45 Speaker 1 Sure. No, no. Here. Mine got caught in here. You know?

24:51 Speaker 2 Yeah.

24:52 Speaker 1 Well-

24:52 Speaker 2 I think, I think, um, I, I don't wanna... Uh, uh, California is a sad story, and I mean, it has a lot of lessons for everybody. I don't wanna make this podcast about California, but I do... You know, now that you've opened up that door, um, I think, I think, you know, I, I think it's, I think it, it, it's interesting to tie it, you know, to tie it back to, you know, even what we were discussing earlier about- Yeah ... about, you know, the challenge of growing up in a community and, uh, you know, one kind of Lubavitch community and then never really fitting in there, never really fitting in, in the kind of mainframe or main Chabad community. You know, you, you spoke about doubling down, and it's just a lot of it's human nature of b- being unwilling, um, or being uncomfortable in facing the problem and acknowledging what it is. There's this sense that, you know, there's this problem out there. If I, if I examine it, there's a chance, at least a fifty percent chance, I guess, people, you know, would think that I'm gonna find out it's worse than what I think it is now. Mm-hmm. And I, and I'd rather not find out. Right. I'd rather kind of... You know, I have no choice but to know it's out there, but let me keep it at arm's length. I'll rationalize it. I'll, I'll, I'll give a different kind of framing, and I'll talk about... Like you said, like,

26:23 Speaker 2 instead of calling it a homeless problem, I'll... Or like a problem of people who are mentally ill or people who are dangerous, um, people who have, in many cases, abandoned responsibility for themselves years ago, and that was a choice. Instead of, instead of f- framing it that way, which by the way is nothing-- is, is not like a conservative position necessarily. There, there are many other countries who are not conservative who see it that way. So the point is that- So there's a reason for that. Right. There's- There's a reason, there's a reason for that narrative. For the denial. And that narrative is rather than focus, because the fact is, is that eighty percent of the homeless that we see on our streets are either drug addicted, mentally ill, or both. And for the city officials of California who have shirked all responsibility or main responsibility of cleaning up and, and providing for the safety of all the citizens of Los Angeles, not just LA, it's, uh, San Francisco. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's mainly on the West Coast. You have it in Oregon, you have it in Seattle, but- Right ... down-- but Los Angeles is, is, has the largest homeless population in the country, and Downtown LA is the epicenter of all that. Skid Row. I mean, Skid Row- I've been to third world countries that make Downtown LA look like, uh, you know, that, that, that, that, you know, Downtown Mexico City. This, this is not a third world problem. This is

27:46 Speaker 2 a first world problem. It's a first world problem, which again, the reason that this happens is because there's, there's an ideology behind it, and that ideology is that we need to fix the housing problem, that it's, it's, it's, it's a housing issue first, housing first. Is that what it is? Is it, is it not that we don't want to, we don't want to recognize that there are some things that don't have easy solutions? There are some things that don't have solutions that can just be bought with money? Well, the way that they, well, the way that they- Housing, housing we can just build, we can pay for, whereas people- Yeah ... who have, who have li- lived messed up lives or even people who, who have, who, who have lived tragic lives and have, have fa- fallen into these hard times because of terrible tragedies, you know. Yeah. Family got killed, whatever it i- whatever it is, but life is sad and tragic and messy, and you don't wanna deal with that, so instead you, you basically focus, you focus your e-f... You focus your perspective on the things that, that feel less uncomfortable. It's that, but it's worse than that. Yeah. No, but it's, it's, it's- I'm just trying to, I'm just trying- It's multilayered. First of all- I'm just trying, I'm just trying to tie it back to, like, like, like these, these, these, these things that we've talked about in Lubavitch or- All right. Let's stay away from homelessness- Right ... 'cause

29:03 Speaker 2 I can talk about that for hours. Yeah. I, I, I don't, I don't... I, I'm, I'm sure you ha- you have a lot to get off your chest. I just- You know, I don't wanna offend the three, um, homeless advocates that listen to this podcast. No, just kidding. But- They're welcome to reach out to me and we'll- We, we love you. No, we love you too. No, I mean, there's- I'll set them straight ... there's different opinions on, there's different opinions on this, obviously. Um, there's different opinions on this. It's not what this podcast is about. Right. But I, I, I think, you know, when you open up that door, I think it's... And you had mentioned earlier, you know, the growing up on, growing up on shlichas and, you know, feeling out even when you're in and kind of that constant sense of homelessness. You know, that's something that's been discussed on this podcast before- Right ... by my brother and I think mainly, mainly my brother. And a lot of the reaction was, "You're making it up," or, "You're exaggerating," or, "It's his personal issue." And, and basically, frankly, a lot of gaslighting and if you wanna be charitable, a lot of reframing. "So it's not this, it's that." Right. "It's not that, it's the other thing." Constantly reframing and repositioning to get to a place where the person... One person reached out to me and said, "Look, you know, your brother, y- you're talking about how it's hard for, you know, shlichim's

30:17 Speaker 2 kids to adjust to the yeshiva system, you know, c- growing up in a completely different world," which, which I don't think is even arguable, but, you know, "You made as like you're making as if it's like that." I refused to accept that something that the Rebbe instituted, namely shlichas, would result in these kind of problems. So if there are these problems, it cannot be a result of shlichas, it must be a result of something else. That is- The parents. Right. Which to me is just... Forget about whether or not I agree with it. I frank- Right ... I clearly don't agree with that. Yeah. I, I think it's bonkers. Right. I think it's bonkers, and I think, I think it's also gutless because very few of those people would ever be willing to say that to one of the parents. Exactly. But forget about that. It's, it's- People say that today about, about- It's, it's gone far beyond shluchus. And, and- There's, there's, there's m- so many Lubavitchers today that have walked away from, uh, from frumkeit. Right. They are no longer religious. Um, and every one of them have a story. Right. And very often the answer immediately is, you know, screwed up home. Right. Parents, uh, you know, the, the, the parents didn't give them a, a pure chinuch. Right. The parents compromised too much, et cetera, et cetera. Right. You know, and, and some of these parents are the most dynamic and, and Hasidisha parents that gave every single one of their

31:41 Speaker 2 kids the best that they could. Right. Uh, people have stories, but it's so easy to- So the question is, why do people do that? So assuming- It's a defensive mechanism. Oh, that's it. That's what I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is, is that there, it's a, it's a defensive mechanism, it's a coping mechanism. It's instead of... Well, if somebody, somebody presents or talks about a, a, a, a, a obvious, uh, challenge or problem where it is you have kids that grow up in a situation where they're in a community that is, that is one way, and then they need to adjust to a different kind of community, and, and, and they're being told their whole life that really that other community is their community. Like you were saying, your mother's telling you Crown Heights is your place, but I come to Crown Heights and everyone tells me that I'm- Yeah ... not from here and I don't belong. Yeah. So what am I? Why did you come to America? Yeah. That's what they used to ask me. When did you come to America? So what am I? When did you get to Amer... I, I live in California, it's America. No, it's not America. Yeah. So what am I? Who am I? Right? And then like, look, uh, excuse me, I don't know exactly your experience, but I remember growing up in Hong Kong, and this will sound arrogant and f- fair enough, maybe it was. I wanted to have nothing to do with

32:48 Speaker 2 the Crown Heightsers, frankly. Like, like, like- I did. I, I wanted... When I came... So I wanna, I wanna just- I, I don't wanna be a Crown Heightser I didn't wanna be a Crown Heightser, but I, I wanted to be a part of the Rebbe scene. That was very important to me. So I- So you're, you're older than me though, so that's, that's- I'm 42. Right. So- So you're, you're, you're a solid six years older than me. Yeah. So that's a big difference. So I... So this is, this is very important. I, I didn't not like Crown Heights. To me, Crown Heights and, and, and, and that part, it was a, it was a enigma and an adventure that I wanted to be a part of, but I didn't always know how to, how to navigate to get through. Right. Now, I am very grateful that I have a second cousin and his first cousin who they were 770, um, tunnel rats, if you will. Now, I know today that has a- What I mean is that these kids were, um, in 770 all the time. Right. Every time. Right. Um, th- they, they lived in 770. I mean, they were all 13 mix, but I mean- Right ... I think once, as soon as they finished school, they ran to 770 like- Uh-huh. They were in 770 and their parents were totally okay with it, and they knew every in and out and exactly- ... how to navigate, and they were rough, tough- How

34:05 Speaker 2 old- ... tunnel kids. How old are we talking here? So I was... These, these are two or three years older than me. Um, this was when I was seven, eight, nine, ten. Ah, okay. So- So not bar mitzvah. Before bar mitzvah. I was 10 years old by Chabad other. Um, anyway, these two, my cousin, my second cousin and his second cousin, and his first cousin, sorry, they took me everywhere with them. So because of them... Now, my father also would take me. My father was very big on never missing a farbrengen that he was there, never missing anything. If I could... You know, he came here to be b- by the Rebbe, so he would not- Right. He... And he would try to bring me as well, but there's actually a story when I was two and a half, um- But there's a lot, there's a lot more to being part of Crown Heights than just coming to farbrengen, is what you're saying. No, no, no. These two, these... My cousin- Right ... because of him and, and, and his first cousin, I got front row access. Right. I was under the Rebbe's, uh, uh, uh, haftera table and, and, and playing with the Rebbe's shoelaces- Oh, you're one of- ... at seven years old. You're one of those. I, I wasn't one of those, but for me, because it was so th- I, I was in Crown Heights two or three weeks out of a year, right? So these memories are etched into it.

35:17 Speaker 2 A couple years ago, I- So w- describe to me a little bit this shoelaces thing. I've heard of it before. What, what exactly was that like? You- you're, I mean- Um, um, um- ... do you remember, do you remember what the feeling was? Like what's, what, like- The feeling was I'm trying to look up and see the Rebbe's, um, face. Why is a seven-year-old interested in that? Because that's what my cousin and his cousin was doing. They're trying to see the- And they... Because all access to be as close as possible, right? Why? Why? Why at that age do you care? I think that because you're, you're pushing to be a part of kedusha. You're, you're part- At that age, you're thinking in those terms? Again, I think that you also see the bachurim pushing. Uh-huh. You see everybody else pushing. Right. And- Right ... I, I, I don't know. I know I went along with it, and it was thrilling. Not just thrilling, I felt, I still can remember till today the, the, my heart beating when the Rebbe would look in my direction or like... And, and, and it wasn't a- Did Rebbe ever, like, acknowledge that you were playing with his shoelaces? I don't remember if we... No, no. No. Um, I think that happened once or twice. Uh-huh. Meaning when, when, by that, like, I got a place by the haftera when the Rebbe was saying, you know, on a, on a regular Shabbos, or maybe it was, it was Yom

36:31 Speaker 2 Tov. Um, there were other times that I, I had a place, like, right by the, um, farbrengen bimah- Mm-hmm ... where Rebbe always used to sit, but with my back, meaning on that little ledge with the Rebbe, di- like sitting right in front of the Rebbe. Now, I was probably eight years old, right? So you're sitting under the table? Uh, not under the table. No, no, no. In front of the table. Not under, in front of the table. Ah. And every, not during the sichas, but every, um, like three minutes during the niggunim, I would dare to, like, lift my head up and, and, and look, and, and, and the Rebbe's right there, like as far as I'm from you. And I just remember that, that, that electric shock. And it was so- Why was it... I'm trying to understand. Why, like, is it, is it from y- I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not disputing that you felt that way. I believe you when you say you felt that way. Was it because your parents instilled it in you? Of course. In my house, everything was Rebbe, Rebbe, Rebbe, Rebbe. So- No, because, because for example, like, you know, I just spoke, um, recently to a photographer who was- wasn't religious when he came to photograph the Rebbe, and he's talking about how he's getting up close with his camera and like- Right ... and like breaking protocol. Like, you know, 770 is so informal in so many ways that like the ep-

37:46 Speaker 2 it's not like you're walking into the royal court of England where everybody is all s- you know, constipated essentially . No. To me- You know, like very, very serious and, and, and everybody's in their place, and then there's a whole protocol built to make this weasel of a king- Right ... be- Right ... impressive, right? And you can't help but be impressed. You're in a palace, right? 770 is not a palace, let's be honest. It's, it's a basement. To me... No, but to me as a little kid, first of all, it felt enormous. Uh-huh. It felt like the size of a football stadium. Really? And I remember once my father, who was a, a, a big baal tefillah. Right. Um, I remember once, I didn't know that he would be chazan by the Rebbe. Right. And this was Pesach, and I'm in the back by the bleachers playing, and I hear... I'm like, "It sounds like my father. Sounds like my father." I probably was, again, eight or nine, and pushing myself to the front of the shul. Right. And sure enough, my father's the chazan, and I'm standing next to my father, and the Rebbe's davening right here. It was such a proud moment. Wow. And it was so... These are the moments that are etched in my, in my, in my consciousness. Hmm. In my brain. And I, I, I, I still have such a... Like, my, my heart skips a beat when I think back to the schvile, the- Right ... the

39:12 Speaker 2 sea of people opening up- Right ... and the Rebbe walking through. Right. Like, with that energy and the, the hand. Again, you're asking where it comes from. It was an experience that I'm glad that I had because I didn't need other people to tell me about it. There's a whole other complicated relationship now that I have with the Rebbe that's filtered through teachers and mashpiyim and what they told me the Rebbe is, and the Rebbe wants, and the Rebbe... But I'm ha- I'm glad I had the, tho- those opportunities. By the way, I, I think my cousin a couple years ago, he didn't know what I was talking about. He had no idea. He's like, "What? I did that?" Right. I'm like, "You don't remember? Because of you, I had all these front access." To him, he did this every, every, every, every day, every week. That's part of life. So he didn't remember when his cousin came couple times a year and he took him along- Right ... for the ride. And to me, those are all my memories of the Rebbe. Right. All, all, all my memories. Um, I still think though that my age had a very difficult time, and I'll tell you why. Anybody my age within three or four years, I would say five years older, five years younger, because we had the childhood experience, but then, you know, again, Klav Zayiner happened when I was 10. Right. And everything changed. Everything changed. Right. Um, I f- I, I, I,

40:44 Speaker 2 I look... One of the themes I notice that you do on your podcast is you talk about time. Right. And how time is the one thing that marches on- Right ... with or without us. And to deny time and to reject time isn't of itself a travesty. Right. It's, it's... I, I think you used the word it creates cynicism. Um, I, I, I am fully on board with that these days. But what's, uh, what I have to contend with is that for many, many years in my bocher years, right? When I was a bocher, um, first of all, I remember I, I wanted so much to be in front of the Rebbe with a hat. I wanted to be with a hat. Right. Even though I was a tall. Like, I was a tall- You want to be, you want to be one of the bochurim. I wanted to be one of the bochurim. Right. I wanted to be part of that. Right. And part of the, the- Right ... the... I didn't even know the terms out of room. I didn't speak Yiddish. Right. My father spoke to me only in Yiddish before, till I was about two and a half, and then I went to preschool or nursery, and all the Yiddish went out the window. Nobody was referring to it in terms those days. Terms is for later on for, for, for, for the peanut gallery like me to, to, to define it. Right. At the time, you're in it. If you're

42:05 Speaker 2 in it, you don't define it, you don't call it- I was in it for just a couple weeks out of the year. Right. Um, and then I would go back to California. Right. And it was like a totally different world. But I was so proud. I would come back with my klichel brocha, and the teacher, I would make sure that the teacher would make a Shabbos party before, um, b- b- on Friday, and I would give every kid from my klichel brocha. Right. And I felt like, oh, I'm sharing it with the, with the class. Um- It sounds- The matzah also that I got from the Rebbe. Like, this, this was like... It, it- It sounds like in those moments, it sound... I mean, you said a lot there obviously. Hopefully, we'll get to more, more of it. But sounds like if we're just gonna talk before we get to dealing with it later, it sounds like in that moment you... things made sense. Like what your mother told you about who you were, and you and your little group, your little kind of group of f- Yeah. The Crown Heights- ... clique of friends. But not the general Crown Heightsers that were mocking you, but your cousin and your, and his cousin- He mocked me too . Right. But they, they, they brought you into their s- they brought you into their- Yeah ... adventure. Yeah. Right? Like it kind of like y- me and my guys, and my couple guys, and, and, uh,

43:20 Speaker 2 you know, and, and, and what my mother told me, it all kind of gels together and makes sense. Right. Right? And- But there were still things that I didn't- I remember as a little kid, like, "Oh, you learn English?" I was like, I was proud of my learning English. I understand. I read a lot of books. I was- But- I, I knew geography, I knew history, and, and these kids knew nothing. And I was... And they wore it as a badge of honor, and they were trying to shame me for, like, "Why do you know such ... stupidity? But that doesn't- Why do you know such stupidity? That doesn't... To me, that doesn't go aga- that doesn't confuse the story because to me, what I'm, what I'm seeing is one of, one of the things is Crown Heights, and the other thing is, is the Rebbe. Yeah. Right? Crown Heights, you know, yeah, there you're gonna run up against, um, you know, the different cultures and so on, but what your mother was telling you was, was not so much about that you're really from President Street, was that more like you're from this chutsher of the Rebbe, like the Rebbe's world, that's your world, right? Yeah. The world around the Rebbe is your world. She framed it diff- "If you would learn in Ohel Torat though, if you would be in Ohel Torat." Okay, so she went to Ohel Torat. She was, she was a aliksder. Her brothers learned in Ohel Torat. Ah. Ohel

44:23 Speaker 2 Torat is what she grew up with. Okay, fair enough. And I don't think she meant it that way though. I think I may have heard it that way, but I think what you're saying is, is right in terms of, like, the most important thing is to be, to be a part of, of the Rebbe. Like, to be, to be connected to the Rebbe in, in that way. What I'm getting at, what I'm getting at is that, like, because we, we, we, we're, we're hitting on a bunch of themes here. You know, there, there's, there, there's the, the challenge and the problem of, of, of growing up outside the nucleus community or the nucleus identity of a Lubavitch, right? There is the, the unwillingness to confront what that mean, what that meant then, what that means today. It changed also. I'll tell you something. The, the, the discomfort, right? Well, it also... I wanna just- Yeah ... remember one thing. Maybe you remember this, maybe you don't. The whole idea of being a shliach, a son of a shliach or a shliach kid, and a badge of honor, that didn't exist then. That did not exist then. That happened after Gimmel Tammuz. By the time I grew up, it existed. Yeah. So you had the tsiryash shlichim. Right. And we care for you, and you're part of... There was none of that. Right. We went to camp. You Floridians, Californians, you're all a bunch of bums. You know, y- y- y- we were, we were harassed

45:38 Speaker 2 and mocked, and we made our own little, like, army to fight back. I wanna go, I wanna go back to that. I wanna, I wanna include that though in this point. I, I, I, I don't, I don't see that... I'm not sure that that changed so much for the kids from Long Beach even later 'cause what, what I'm see- Let me get to it in a minute. I, I think... So you have these, you have these, these, these, these themes. You have the, the inside/outside dynamic, right? There's the inside or there's Lubavitch of Crown Heights, and there's growing up outside of that and trying to fit in. There... A- and on top of that, the whole shlichas. Like I, we're there 'cause... We're not there 'cause my father has a good job there. We're there because my father was sent there. Right. But yet him being sent there has made me different than the place. Yeah. So it's complicated. And I didn't want to feel like I'm defective. Right. I didn't wanna feel like I'm defective. It's understa- it's understandable. I wanted to feel like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a good boy. It's understandable. I'm doing... I, I... There's nothing wrong with me, but somehow there were messages sent. Of course. Um, but it wasn't just, you know, from what I heard at home. Again, and, and I had- No, it's all, it's all over the place. You, you have, you have, you have, you have this theme. You have the unwillingness to confront

46:44 Speaker 2 it. And then what I, what I hear again and again, not just from you, but in general, is when I was around the Rebbe, it all kind of, it all kind of got solved. And I don't, I don't- Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't mean that at all in a cynical way. I'm not suggesting that you or others are just kind of, you know, sugarcoating it. You know, other... You know, once it comes to the Rebbe, it was fine. Because if I... You'll see where I'm, I'm going with this. If, if you, if, if you take a cynical take and say, "Okay, just, you know, you're just, you're just... You know, you don't wanna, you, you don't wanna challenge anything about the Rebbe, so once you talk about the Rebbe, everything's, everything's nice and dandy." So then you could say that's why people are not confronting it because, you know, they, they, the, the problem would lead to why, why was the Rebbe thinking about- If the buck stops by the Rebbe, so then the Rebbe's responsible for everything that happened. Right. Right. And, and, and, and people- There is some truth to that. There's truth, and let's get to that later. But I think, I think before you get to that, I think you... Before you get to that, I think, I think it's worth to, like... To me, something that really, really, um, fascinates me is that y- y- you have the, the kind of inside/outside, the, the, this, this, this, this,

47:58 Speaker 2 this need for this homogeneous, what would be the homogeneous? I don't know how to pronounce it, but where everybody's the same. Everybody- Monolithic. Right. Uh, monolithic, homogeneous, where- Homogenous ... homogenous. Everybody looks the same, does the same, thinks the same, acts the same. But that's already, that's already, that's already, like, oversimplifying that. There's a certain kind of, like, consistency. People, you know, the consistency. What is this identity? What does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a understandable need or desire for consistency. The, the same way, you know, like, what's so beautiful, let's say, about a Starbucks? I mean, I don't happen to like Starbucks. I don't like Starbucks either. Star- What's, what's beautiful about an Apple store? 'Cause you walk in, and you have the same smell. Oh, it does. The same taste. Oh, it does. Wherever you are. The same wherever you are. Wherever you are. Whether you're in, in Budapest- Right ... or Hong Kong or- Right. Right ... or, or in Los Angeles, you know what you're gonna get in Starbucks, right? It's the same. Where- whereas, whereas with, whereas with, let's say, you know, the, a, a more, like, independent coffee shop, which is, you know, it's a hit or miss. Right. It could be delicious. It could be amazing. Yeah. It could also be a disaster. Right. Right? And so people understandably look for consistency. Like, "What is this identity? Let's find the consistent identity." Right? And the problem is that especially with

49:18 Speaker 2 Shlichas, but I would contend way before Shlichas, there was always this fracture of there's Lubavitch here, there's Lubavitch there. There's all kinds of Lubavitch. Right. Like, if anything, I would think that before, like back in Russia, it was more fractured than it is today. Like, I mean, even, even if- I would, I would imagine so. I mean, if you have people that came from Kremenchuk- Right ... and people that came from Nevel and people that came from, uh, Klimovitch- Right ... or Kaslavitch, every one of them had a different, uh, a, a different, um- Exactly ... uh, they, they had a different taste in the way that they learned Chassidus and the way that they related to the Rebbe. Um- It's more than that. Lubavitch was a village. Yes. There was no Crown Heights. Right. There was no, there was no center of gra- Like, yeah, there were a few people that lived in K- Lubavitch. They were looked down at by Lubavi- Were they? Yes. Yeah. There was a famous saying in Lu- Telshe Tomim changed the game a little bit. Right. Telshe Tomim became the place to be as a bachur. But there was a famous saying that a-a, you know, around the ocean the sand is the driest, which was a reference to the Lubavitchers who lived in Lubavitch, that they're like the driest Chassidim because they're, they're like, they're, they're, they're too close to the kedushah- Right ... too close to the intensity- Got it ... to actually, to actually absorb

50:32 Speaker 2 it and become, you know, become be- to, to, to, to, to, to be, to be inspired by it. Kind of like if you're a Maskir then you can't be a real Chassid. That- Yeah, prob- probably Which I don't buy- I, uh- ... any of those statements. Okay, I'm just telling you how people- Your shwarma also can't be real Chassidim. Yeah. Like that's a ... It's close to home. Yeah. Yeah, so and I'm just saying, like I, I, um, people those days it seems like there was in many ways a kind of... Lubavitchers, it's not, to live in Lubavitch is not that, is not the ideal. It's not the dream. Like it's, it's not something to look up at, right? And what's even more fascinating for me was recently I was reading this j- the journal of the Friediker Rebbe that's printed in the picturesque of Mayan, and it's a f- it's a few y- it's the years of Samach to Sanhedrin, so 1901 to 1903. The Friediker Rebbe's, um, th- th- there's a, there's a, there's a lot of pressure on the, on Lubavitch from the Haskalah movement, and then from the Zionists. Mm-hmm. And they, they're mastering on them, and, uh, there's also a lot of, there's a lot of- Internal pressure because they were losing, they were losing a lot of kids- Right. Yeah ... to these movements. What I didn't know was that the Haskalah movement literally opened up a school in Lubavitch. Yeah. Like as like a, as like a act

51:43 Speaker 2 of war. That was before the riot or after the riot? Kishinev riot? No. No, no, no, no. After the- There was a riot in Lubavitch. There was a whole fist fight- Oh, that I don- ... that took place ... that, that I don't know. Uh, I know a little bit about- I know all about the fights. That's all right. Yeah. It doesn't matter about, but I mean, the- there was... You know, it's a very fascinating thing, but there was also at the time there was a lot of issues that the Rebbe, the Rebbe Rashab, and the Friediker Rebbe were dealing with, um, with Jews who lived in the Pale of Settlement. Yeah. Most of the Jews were not allowed to live in the cities, and they were struggling to put bread on the table. Yeah. And they were cutting court, trying to get into the cities, getting into trouble. They were generally being persecuted. And what was fascinating, and this is where it comes relevant, what's fascinating is you see the, the Friediker Rebbe especially, 'cause he's writing the journal, he's shuttling between Lubavitch, this kind of backwater town. Yeah. I'm talking economically speaking- Right ... not spiritually speaking. You know, th- this, this Pale of Settlement shtetl, shuttling between there and Petersburg and Moscow, but not only between huts and buildings, between different kinds of Chassidim. Right. There are Chassidim who are these kind of, you know, Chassidim that never made it out. Yeah. Very kind of kleyn kapele type of provincial Chassidim. Right.

52:55 Speaker 2 And then he goes to- The, the, the, the, the, the S- the, the farmers. The farmers. Right? The little farmers. Chassids, literal farmers versus the cosmopolitan- Yeah ... um, urbane and, and sophisticated shloim Chassidim. And there are, there are, there are descriptions there of the Rebbe Rashab sitting in a parlor meeting- Yeah ... with, with, with Jews in these cities, including fellow Lubavitch Chassidim. I... What exactly they look like, I don't know. But- Well, do you think they were dressed in shmatas? No. No, but- Do you think that they- I don't know if they had beards. I don't know if they had beards or not is what I'm saying. I don't- Oh, you don't think so? No, I, I know some of them- Maybe they did. No, no, I know some of them did, some of them didn't. Yeah. I, I don't know exactly who was who is my point. Right. I'm not that familiar. But the Rebbe Rashab is berating them to not forget your brethren. Ah. Why am I bringing that up? Because the split in identity was very pronounced back then, right? Do... Like the Rebbe lived in Lubavitch, but yeah, the Rebbe were, were, they were not limited to Lubavitch. The Chassidim in Petersburg and Moscow respected them too. Right. The Chassidim in Lubavitch respected them too. The Chassidim in Kraslavitch and, and, and Nikolaev or wherever respected them too. So the identity of Lubavitcher Chassidim was fractured tremendously. What h- what was the glue that held them together? It was

54:06 Speaker 2 Chassidus, and in many ways the Rebbe. Yeah. Right? And- We are all Chassidim of one Rebbe. Right. Right. And so it's very... That, that comes back to this point that you're bringing up with the story of, of like, you know, you and your friend, y- y- you don't know where you belong. Am I a, am I a Orange County kid? Right. Am I a Crown Heights kid? Right. You know, I'm in Crown Heights, uh, you know, I get along with them in 1770 when we're scrapping to sit by the farbrengen, but then right after we're arguing about, you know, Alter is better and your school sucks and so on- Yeah. ... and so forth, right? And it always comes back to, yeah, but, but the Rebbe was all, it all made sense. And I, I gave that, I gave that, uh, I, I s- I brought up the, the story of the Friediker and the Rashab to... It's not, I don't think it's necessarily a cynical take. I think there's a very... That it makes sense, right? Like there is this kind of at the core of being a Lubavitcher, there is this identification with the Rebbe or how you described it earlier. Like I saw the Rebbe without anybody telling me how it was or filtering it for me. That was my moment. That, that, that was mine, right? Yeah. On the other hand, it, it was very much a childhood experience. I don't remember- Right ... one, one drop of, of Torah that

55:21 Speaker 2 I learned from the Rebbe. I don't... I, I didn't understand much. All I, I just remember the Rebbe would say a lot of times, "Al achas kama v'kama, al achas kama v'kama, al achas kama-" Right. That I remembered. Right. I re- I loved the Nigunim, 'cause the Nigunim I knew. My father would sing Nigunim every Friday night. Right. My father's a big, big Baal Menagen. Right. Loves Nigunim. Um, and so the Nigunim, many of them I knew, and that was exciting to be part of the singing, part of the, the which I could participate in and look at the Rebbe, and the Rebbe's giving l'chaim to everybody and trying to get the Rebbe's- Right ... attention to give l'chaim. And then, and then when things got... I mean, the, the, the energy was, was breathtaking. Right.

56:02 Speaker 2 I, I, I also remember hearing, I, I was able to note, oh, it sounds like the Rebbe's winding down, 'cause it's, it was hard as a kid to sit through- I'm sure ... through a 45-hour sikha, which you don't understand anything, and it's pushing, and it's sweaty, and it's- Right ... you know, depends on where I was standing with my father- Right ... 'cause sometimes I stood with my father also. But I remember when I would start to hear, "Oh, ," you know, uh, "Amittah ," oh, oh, okay, this is gonna be s- this is gonna be s- s- uh, uh, singing, so I love, I love the singing. E- ev- I love that ... everybody sitting in the back of a shul or a Chabad house during a speech knows the feeling. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I mean- It was long. Okay. And for a kid, it was really, really long. I'm sure. Um, and my father, uh, there, there was... I mean, I didn't ask, but there was never... I never, I wasn't from those that, like, left the farbrengen after the first sikha. It was like, "I'm staying for the whole thing." Right. Yeah. Well, well you were there k- there a few times a year. Yeah. But my point, my point is that I think, I think the Rebbe, I think the Rebbe, you know, the Rebbe's presence a- and the identification with the Rebbe allowed for a lot of these fractures to be not swept under the table,

57:11 Speaker 2 just to become less of a problem, right? Because at the end of the day, you were able to hold on for, in your mind, "Yeah, okay, I, I don't fit in here, I don't fit in there," but at the end of the day, I un- I, I know what it means to be a Lubavitcher 'cause, you know, I was by the Rebbe. Like, this, this is what, this is what it is. Yeah. Right? The problem that happens, and this goes back, in my view, why, why, why people get so defensive about it, is that, you know, after Gimmel Tammuz- Which part are they getting defensive about? How there are people today that don't, uh, look, and think, and walk like them? I- Like, what, what... I just wanna- The problem of- I wanna, I wanna understand ... the pro- the problem when anybody points out a, a, a, a phenomenon of fractured Lubavitch identity, or when, when people point out how the identity is fractured and how you can't just assume that it's, that it's, that it's what, what it is for them is for everybody else, people get defensive. Yeah. Uh, i- is that also code word for i.e. we have real problems? I think we can get there. Yeah. I'm okay, I'm okay. I'm not trying to sugarcoat that. I think, I think- Well, I think that- I think you wanna- I've noticed that any time I try to bring up a group problem that we have- Right ... to friends- Right ...

58:22 Speaker 2 to mashpiem, to other people, I am immediately hit with a, a, a, a, a, a defensiveness and a denial and a- So the question is why. The question is why, and I think the reason why is because when, when, when, when the Rebbe was here, it kind of like, you know, we're all kind of... We, we... Th- the buck stops here. Like we all, we kind of... Th- the Rebbe, the Rebbe's a tzadok. The Rebbe's real. The Rebbe's true. Right. So everybody kind of just ends up there, right? Yeah. And like all the, all the other stuff kind of i- is, is the sec- Listen, I heard from, I heard something- Is relevant, but, but now- Uh- ... you don't have that luxury is my point. I heard something from a, from a chossid who I, I respect a lot. He said the only place of truth that he experienced was Kodesh HaKodashim in the Rebbe's room. Okay? Right. Immediately outside the Rebbe's room, in Gan Eden HaTachton- ... there was no longer that truth, and those people- Right ... that were the closest to the Rebbe, those people that were, uh, secretaries, those people, I m- inc- remarkable people, every one of them. Right. But they had their own agendas and their own biases and their own e- maybe in a, in, in, in- But that's a- ... small, in small little ways. No, my, my point is though is that when that, when that's constantly overlooked, right? Right. And- Right. It's overpowered ...

59:49 Speaker 2 everything's done in the name of the Rebbe, right? Right. Right. So this one speaks up in the name of the Rebbe- Right ... and therefore I cannot question or challenge him because it's all in the name of the Rebbe. Right. But, but one second. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe it's his taich of what the Rebbe said. There you go. And, uh, it's only several years ago, actually it's more seven, eight years ago, it was on a Gimmel Tammuz that I was feeling very, very, um, low and dejected, and not wanting to participate in the group Gimmel Tammuz experience. I didn't want to. I... There was so- I was going through some experience, a visceral experience where I didn't wanna be around the crowds, I didn't want, and I was just really struggling with it, and I spoke to somebody who I respect a lot, and we, we got into discussions, what is, "Moishy, what's your connection with the Rebbe? What is your, what is your haskafos?" Back and forth. And, and I realized, like through the discussion, I only had a handful of experiences where I, I saw, I, I, I, I got a dollar, a bracha v'atslacha. Right. "This is for your birthday." Probably all my life experiences are less than a minute of, of words, and everything else is what was taught to me and filtered through the experiences, the lenses, and the, the opinions of, of teachers, of mashpiem. And, and to me, it was, it was a light bulb.

1:01:31 Speaker 2 The one of... I, I said, "I, I need to, I need to learn on my own. I need to-" Right. And, and, and, and started a series of me doing my own learning. Right. Uh, my thing is Perush Menachem. I love Perush Menachem. Mm. More than Likutei Sichos, more than Maamar. I just, I, I like that flow. Right. Um, I, I, it, it works for me. Right. It's what, it's what I feel. Um- Right ... uh, I, I, I ca- I take it in, in, uh, in the measures of, you know, sometimes I'll learn for five minutes a day, sometimes an hour a day, but I always try to, I try to make it a daily- Mm ... uh, a daily thing to learn Perush Menachem every day. Right. Um, to me, it seems unfiltered. It's, it's, it's what ... it's what the Rebbe said at the farbrengen. Right. Right? It's not what somebody's telling me that the Rebbe said with his own, uh, tnuas and his own voice and his own, uh- Right ... you know, sense of, of, of what the Rebbe meant, et cetera, et cetera. Right. Now, people counter that and they say, "Yeah, but, uh, you need a mashpia. You need..." Which the Rebbe clearly said we need a mashpia. Right. But if a Rebbe is a Rebbe, then I have to have a, a, a personal connection with him, and I know you talk about this and touched about this in other podcasts. You're so welcome to talk about

1:02:48 Speaker 2 it. Which is, which is, which is- I mean, a mashpia, a mashpia is not... A mashpia is not in place of having your own connection. A mashpia is, is, is essentially a check and balance on making sure that you're not, you're not getting ahead of your own skis and not, you know, convincing yourself that... But a mashpia, like, you know, I know, I know we both like to talk sometimes about, you know, let's say lifting weights, for example. Mm-hmm. You know, you could have someone who, who shows you how to do it or shows you how not to do it. Like, you know, like, "Don't do it this way, it's gonna hurt you." Yeah. Or, "This is the right way to go about it," and so on. But at the end of the day, you have to be motivated to do it. Of course. Right? You have to have a reason to do it, and that is something that is overlooked. You know, what, what is overlooked, I think, is that, like, you know, when you... Wh- where does it start from? If it starts from the masses, that I want to be part of this group, ident- I wanna be part of this group, 'cause everybody has... Every human being has an instinct that they wanna be part of a group, especially the one that they grew up with. There's a very powerful need to be, to belong, right? If that's why, so it's nothing to do with you, what ends up happening is

1:03:54 Speaker 2 that you, as a person, starts getting more and more distant from this behavior or this... whatever you're doing that's trying to fit in with the group. Right. Right? 'Cause it's not you. It's not, it's not coming from you. You're not aligned with what you're doing. You're not aligned with the group, right? And so you end up having this kind of, a lot of cynicism, a lot of bitterness. "This is..." You know, "I'm trapped here." A sense of feeling trapped. Yeah. Right? Th- there has to be a... So like, so does that mean you have to fry out? No, that's not what it means. It means that as, as you get older, as you get older, and as life presents to you, uh, i- it's like the same way your, your, your skin sheds old cells and, you know, you, you lose hair and you grow new hair. The things that worked for you up to a certain point stop working for you, and at that point, you have to say, "Look, it's now my need to re..." Not necessarily reconnect, but to connect in many ways for the first time in a way that's mine. Right. The, the... You know, in many ways, being forced to leave Yeshiva and being forced to leave the group think is an, is, is an, is an, an immense blessing, right? Because, you know- I, I- ... yeah, it forces you to, "Who are you, man?" Like- I also think it's a personality thing. I think that there are

1:05:04 Speaker 2 many people that thrive in the group. They, they don't like to, to be an independent thinker. They don't feel comfortable charting their own path. I don't- They don't feel comfortable. And then... What, you don't think that there are people that, that, if- There, there are, there's, there's alwa- there's always people, but I, I... Look, put it this way. There are far more people that could be independent and would thrive. What does independent mean? Independent does not mean, uh, necessarily wearing a different color shirt, a silly example. That's, yeah. That's, that's- Or, or, or, or, or doing something different. Independent means that... I like the word individual more. Mm-hmm. Right? 'Cause independent, you know, because independent of what? Like, you, like, you... Like, it's almost like a kind of step away, where individual means, like, I... What I... My connection or my relationship here is something that I can explain to you in my own words, and I can explain it to you in words that, um, that make sense to me and will make sense to you. And, and if I wanna take a step further, I can explain it to you in words that are as reasonable and in the same language as the way I explain to you what I eat for breakfast, why I eat breakfast, why, why, why I, how I run my business. Right. Down to earth, straightforward- Right ... normal language. Yeah. Okay? We live in, we live in America. Yeah. Okay? We live in a very practical, relatively

1:06:31 Speaker 2 practical kinda country. We talk about a lot of things very practically. Why should this be any different? And, and if you can speak about it in a practical way, in words that, that resonate to you, then that's coming from you, right? And, and, and I feel, I feel that so many... You said it is a problem... You know, people... Do people not wanna talk about certain problems because, because they're scared to talk about a group problem? I think people feel that they don't have license to examine things for themselves. I think we got used to, for one reason or another, basically pushing all the problems up the chain. Yeah. Even, even that anecdote that you told me, to me, it, I don't... It, it doesn't sit well with me. Not that I disagree with it. Which, which anecdote? The one where, you know, the truth is only in the Chazon Ish, and after that, it's basically... I- it- it's, it's, it's corruption all the way down. Not corruption. It starts, it starts with the Chasam Sofer- But it's not as, not as pure ... right. I don't like that. Why? Not that, not that it's incorrect. Because what that does f- for me... Okay, look, I guess you could say it's simply an observation that there's, that there's levels, and then there's, there's, there's a place of holiness and there's a place of, you know, of, of, of... To me, that's, that's language that I've heard so much that I kinda just identify it with

1:07:48 Speaker 2 a way of thinking. It's interesting, 'cause I never heard that language. To me, anything that anybody said in the name of the Rebbe- Right ... and maybe he didn't say it in the name of the Rebbe, said in the name of Rabbi Kadikoff. "Oh, so Rabbi Kadikoff told me-" So, so some- "... A, B, and C, so therefore now-" So some- "... I, I, I need to base my entire life on what Rabbi Kadikoff told you at a Yechidas in 1974 after you walked out of Yechidas?" Hold on. Well, okay. Maybe that applies to you And it doesn't apply to me, and it doesn't apply to the way that I have to run- No, but it comes- ... my Chabad house ... it comes from the same place. Let me explain it to you. It comes from the same place. You're saying it's two different languages, it's the same language. It starts, it starts with what, what you said about, you know, that, that the "... was holy," and then after that there's this kind of... I mean, I guess it depends how it's said, but I, I, I'm pretty sure I know how it's taken in general. It's basically the rebbe's pure, and after that it's all kind of, it's all kind of, it's all, it's all impure. Like somebody put it to me in different words the other day where, like, the rebbe's up here and then everyone else is down here. There's no levels. There's no hierarchy. There's no, there's no... We're

1:08:55 Speaker 2 all just a bunch of, like the reb- the rebbe's up here and we're all down here. That sounds to me a lot like communism or... Forget it. I, I don't need to give it a label to, to, to disparage it. I mean, no, communism would say that the rebbe is with us on the same- No, but okay- Yeah. ... but Stalin- Stalinism. ... Grom Gil. Stalinism. Yeah. You know, Leninism. Yeah. Where... And, and but my-- to me, the main point is not whether or not the rebbe is r- is higher than all of us. Accepted, okay? The point is that everyone else is equal. That's where the cynicism starts. Whereas because very quickly what ends up happening is like the famous Orwell line, "All the pigs were equal, but some- Yes ... of the pigs were equal- Except for those that walk on, on two- No, no. All pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others. No, all animals are equal- But in the- ... in the animal farm. Yes, but all animals- The pigs were all- No, no, but he says, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Are more equal than others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay? And that's what happens. By the way, it's a gevaldige book. Yes. We start corrupting that language. We start corrupting the language of, of... What do you mean that everyone's equal? What does that mean? What does it mean that everyone's equal? So, so a person, a person who takes,

1:09:57 Speaker 2 let's say, in yeshiva takes learning seriously- Yeah ... takes davening seriously and, and, and, and tries to daven v- v- ve'areg or the way he understands he's supposed to daven in yeshiva and learns this and so on. Yeah. He's the same as a guy who doesn't? No. No, no, no. Uh, so, so, so- But that's where it goes. Oh. That's where, that's where it goes. And, and so very- I was coming from a whole different line, and I think you and I are maybe... We're, we're, we're- It's fine. And that- Our, our, our, our, our, our... We're crossing wires. Now you're speaking about one thing, I'm speaking about another thing. Right. Here's what I was trying to bring out. Today, we live in a world where people will take a picture of their rebbe and put it on every, uh, ideal, idea, and, and far-flung, uh, uh, wish that they want and shove it in your face and say, "This is what you need to do. You need to do this because look, the rebbe's picture is on this, and I could take a quote," and everything like this. And suddenly they're challenging you- Where did that come from? ... they're challenging you to go along with their- I understand ... perception, and I reject that categorically. Where did that come from though, is my question. I understand what you're saying. I agree with what you're saying. I also don't like it. But where does it come from? Wh- like how did that gain hold?

1:11:09 Speaker 2 Unless you assume that everyone is either- Because we- ... evil or idiots, which I don't accept. I think, I think most people are reasonable, mainly because as you get to know them on their, in their day-to-day lives, most of them, not everybody, yeah, there are some crazy people out there, but most people in their day-to-day lives live pretty reasonable lives. Mm-hmm. They don't live in abstractions. They don't live with stupid cliches and, you know, they, they don't just s- start shouting at, at their accountant that some... That "" and therefore... They, they... People don't live that way. So, so why is it that when it comes to certain topics of our lives, we suddenly act this way? That, that's always been my question. Like assuming that most people are reasonable and want the best for themselves and for their family and for their kids, why do people act this way, right? I, I agree with you, people do act this way, and I agree that there is this tendency of, you know, getting very heated very quickly and like bringing the rebbe, like bringing the rebbe into conversation extremely quickly. It's my way of getting what I want and getting you to shut up and to fall in line because I am now invoking the name of the rebbe. But how did that take hold? I, I think it's, I think it's the Russians. The Russians did it. I'm telling you. Okay, so you're a Chassid. There you go. No, my, my mother comes directly,

1:12:20 Speaker 2 Bubbe Nemes. I'm kidding. Uh, my, my, my mother's side is Russian, Russian. I'm kidding. Okay? My, my, my- I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I- it's fine. I, I, I, I, I'll go through it. There is- No, I'm just kidding. I'm not into this stuff at all. But- No, but you don't think that there was Russian influence that came in- But- ... the secrecy- No, but that's precisely, that's- They, they decide... And then also- That's why I said Stalinism. Yeah. That's why I said Stalinism. Fall into line. No, but, but, but- Do not- But, but let's break it down a little bit ... yeah ... let's break it down. It's not... Yes, some of it is just kind of, you know, this, th- these kind of, uh, controlling c- you know, controlling paranoia, all this stuff. I think, I think, I think there's more meat on the bone, which is... 'Cause I think what happens there is basically what ends up... I mean, what... If it was, if, if it was the only explanation and the wh- what all I could see in it, it's like, okay, that's what it is, you have to deal with it. But part of the problem with using that as explanation is that there's nothing to do about it. Like we can't, we can't un-Russian the whole culture or, or we could just wait it out and, and wait to see what happens when we become more Americanized. W- first of all, we're, we're already... It, it's not one Lubavitch anymore.

1:13:29 Speaker 2 I know, but- It's not one Lubavitch anymore. We want to pretend, and we would like to say that there's one Mishpocha Chabad. Right. It's not... It's, it, it, it hasn't been this way for a quarter of a century. Yeah, but the dominant culture is still very much the same, you know, it, it, it is... Well, you're, you're just saying that that's the culture. If the... You can't have it both ways. If the culture that's dominant and is very, and is, always asserts itself with that kind of claim to power is a Russian phenomenon, which I agree that it has that- No, but you asked about the source of it, and that source- It's not just Russian, it's deeper than that. In my opinion- It metamorphosizes itself, that you have certain American- It's deeper than that, I think. It's deeper. I think, I think it's not just that it's Russian. It's not just that we're Russians. Yes, there, there are flavor... There are Russian flavors all over the place, I agree. Uh, and, and a lot of them are very damaging. Look, there's... But like I think, you know, for some reason- How did the hierarchy of shlichus work 50 years ago? Uh, I think- How did the hierarchy of getting the rebbe's- I think there's plenty- ... the rebbe wanted something to happen ... there's- How did that work? There's plenty of stuff going on back then too. That's- Of course. I'm not saying it was perfect ... there's plenty of shenanigans too. I'm not...

1:14:34 Speaker 2 There's pl- there's plenty, plenty of people saying that my guy and, uh, my maskir says this and the other maskir says that. There were plenty of machlokes that were happening back then too, and everybody claiming the rebbe was on their side. Um, you know, there, there, there was, there, there was, there was, there was plenty of that. There's... There, there, there was... But, you know, I, I feel like when you, when you, when you, when you just, when you just make it about, about, about the Russian culture, it, it's, it's almost, it's almost like it's, it's almost like giving up. I think there's something more here. I think, I think there is a, there is a, uh, there is a unwillingness to reckon with the fact that, like you said, identity was always fractured. Identity was always fragmented. It's, it's historically like that. It was like that in Russia, it was like that after Russia. People are different. People have different backgrounds. Shlichas put it in a different direction, but there was always gonna be fragmentation, and there continues to be fragmentation.

1:15:35 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:36 Speaker 2 Right? And you can no longer just shift everything up the chain to the Rebbe. You have to take responsibility. You have to take ownership, and taking ownership means taking risk of being wrong or making a mistake.

1:15:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:51 Speaker 2 And nobody wants to do that. So instead-

1:15:53 Speaker 3 I love that

1:15:54 Speaker 2 ... they, they-

1:15:55 Speaker 3 I, I, I, I, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

1:15:57 Speaker 2 Great. So -

1:15:58 Speaker 3 That... No, I really, I, I-

1:15:59 Speaker 2 We saw, we saw something today .

1:16:01 Speaker 3 No, I, I, I think that you're, you're just starting to scratch the paint, Bentzi, though. I mean, this is an onion that we can go really deep into about, about willing to wil- willing to go into unchartered territories and willing to, to take responsibility in a real way. Um, I-

1:16:19 Speaker 2 I mean-

1:16:19 Speaker 3 It's very hard for many, many people to... Um, and this, this goes directly into line with a concept that you keep bringing up in your podcast with others, um, regarding time. If we are stuck in 1992 or 1994, it's now 30 years later, there are a whole host of issues-

1:16:45 Speaker 2 Right

1:16:45 Speaker 3 ... and, uh, a- and, and concerns and challenges that did not exist-

1:16:51 Speaker 2 Right

1:16:51 Speaker 3 ... 30 years ago. I think that the barometer, uh, of, of what makes a Chassid is to always try to look at things through the lenses of how the Rebbe approached similar things, to try to come up with, um, with similar solutions, or at least say, "Okay, what, how, how best would the Rebbe address this issue?"

1:17:17 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:17 Speaker 3 Um, but then to do f- to, to, to, to, to have to go and to go into unchartered waters and to take necessary steps-

1:17:27 Speaker 2 Right

1:17:27 Speaker 3 ... and that we may be wrong in.

1:17:29 Speaker 2 Chassidim.

1:17:29 Speaker 3 And not just to say, "You know what? Uh, uh, I, I don't know, so therefore I, I, I, I can't. I, I, I don't know. I don't have another message or another issue to bring to, to the light because, you know, this is, this is the only thing that I, that I, that I know how to say."

1:17:43 Speaker 2 Let me throw out, you know, 'cause you, you've been bringing up the very kind of aggressive, you know, "The Rebbe would never..." You know, "I have sources that say that the, you know, that, that from the Rebbe that are against this." Going back to the, you know, I don't mind referring to the early-

1:17:57 Speaker 3 And this is just my, my experiences in yeshiva.

1:17:59 Speaker 2 I'm agreeing with you.

1:18:00 Speaker 3 My experiences with mashpiyim. It was my experiences of, of having a lot of, you know, uh, I tried to discuss these things with them. I tried to, you know, talk openly and, and, and, and voice my, uh, voice my, my concerns or my-

1:18:19 Speaker 2 Right

1:18:19 Speaker 3 ... you know, growing up and, and, and, and in a, in a post-Gimmel Tammuz world and those years, I think my buffer years were, were very difficult.

1:18:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:27 Speaker 3 Um, there's a lot more that seems to be just smoothed out today or-

1:18:32 Speaker 2 Right

1:18:32 Speaker 3 ... there's an, a greater ease.

1:18:34 Speaker 2 Right. For sure.

1:18:36 Speaker 3 That, that, you know, c- because, because I, I don't think people realize or wanna go back. I don't want to, to go back to the years between '92 and '97, I would say, or '98. Those were, in my year, in my, in my, in my book, those were bad years.

1:18:53 Speaker 2 They were catastrophic years.

1:18:54 Speaker 3 They were terrible years.

1:18:56 Speaker 2 There's no question.

1:18:57 Speaker 3 And all my experiences-

1:18:58 Speaker 2 And by the way, they didn't e- they didn't end. Like, a lot of the things that happened then we are still living with today. There's no question about it.

1:19:04 Speaker 3 Well, you... We're, we're living with a lot of the consequences-

1:19:06 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying

1:19:07 Speaker 3 ... of those, of those years.

1:19:08 Speaker 2 That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

1:19:09 Speaker 3 Um-

1:19:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:19:10 Speaker 3 ... and those were my formative years.

1:19:12 Speaker 2 Like I'm saying, you can't just like say, "Oh, they happened. It's so sad." You know, wrap it. The end. It didn't end.

1:19:21 Speaker 3 It didn't end. We're, we're very much looking at a reality based on a lot of the, the, the, the actions or inactions that were taken during those years.

1:19:31 Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure.

1:19:32 Speaker 3 And it's just interesting how, besides for yourself, I mean, there's very few people willing to discuss those years and to go back and say like, "Can we have a frank conversation of what took place in the immediate years that followed Gimmel Tammuz?" The-

1:19:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:47 Speaker 3 The w- Oh, it was a lot of machlikis. It wasn't just machlikis. Machlikis was was the first layer of issues.

1:19:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:53 Speaker 3 But there was a sense of, of, of changing the, the... There was a huge change of what, of what was told to us that would happen-

1:20:07 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:07 Speaker 3 ... between the eighth, between Nun Beis and Nun Daled.

1:20:09 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:10 Speaker 3 And then suddenly the script flipped, and suddenly no, Moshiach doesn't have to be Min Hachaim, has to be Min hameitzim, or should be Min hameitzim, et cetera, et cetera. A whole series-

1:20:20 Speaker 2 No, that, that's only what one group of people want

1:20:22 Speaker 3 ... and being taught, and being taught-

1:20:23 Speaker 2 Another group who want other direction, yeah.

1:20:25 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:25 Speaker 2 Right.

1:20:25 Speaker 3 But also being taught-

1:20:27 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:27 Speaker 3 ... by a people and, and, and, and, and mashpiyim and rebbeim that were deeply in distress-

1:20:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:34 Speaker 3 ... deeply hurt-

1:20:35 Speaker 2 Right

1:20:35 Speaker 3 ... deeply shattered-

1:20:36 Speaker 2 And confused

1:20:37 Speaker 3 ... a- and confused, and-

1:20:39 Speaker 2 And panicked

1:20:39 Speaker 3 ... panicked, and took out a lot of that, took that out on a lot of us.

1:20:43 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:20:43 Speaker 3 Where I had, you know, uh, mashpiyim that would yell and scream at us, "You're taking the Rebbe's head and dragging it through the mud, and you're schlepping the Rebbe's through the mud." And this whole descriptive picture-

1:20:56 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:20:56 Speaker 3 ... of how I'm taking the, the Rebbe by his tzitzit and dragging him through the streets of London, and, and, and, and, and, and-

1:21:04 Speaker 2 London? Oy vey

1:21:06 Speaker 3 I wanna, I wanna-

1:21:07 Speaker 2 I was saying London, of all cities. Oh, you were in yeshiva in London. Uh-huh

1:21:10 Speaker 3 That was, that was my experience there.

1:21:11 Speaker 2 Oh.

1:21:11 Speaker 3 I went to several... I went to quite a few yeshivas and I different-

1:21:13 Speaker 2 I thought it was a ra- I thought it was a random city that you went to

1:21:14 Speaker 3 ... I had radical experiences in every yeshiva.

1:21:16 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:21:17 Speaker 3 Now, my, my experiences in yeshiva wasn't all bad.

1:21:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:20 Speaker 3 Um, but I don't look back at my experience in yeshiva with any great love.

1:21:24 Speaker 2 But I wanna point out, you, I don't really speak about those years. First, I didn't grow up through those years. If you wanna speak more about it, I'd be happy to hear about it, but I'm not even that personally, I'm not even that curious about those years yet. I'll tell you why. I'm more curious about the years that came before, because you cannot understand what took place then without understanding what happened before. This idea that everything was working right-

1:21:52 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:21:52 Speaker 2 ... and then suddenly it went berserk, no. If, if-

1:21:57 Speaker 3 As a k- as a child though, it felt like every... Like you said, it felt like at least the core-

1:22:02 Speaker 2 It made sense

1:22:03 Speaker 3 ... was working, w- was, was working just fine.

1:22:05 Speaker 2 Yes, but I think with time, when you look back, to me, in my view, it's like, I don't know, something, something I don't know if it went wrong, but, I mean, I think the proof is in the pudding that, that, that something, something was off. Something was off. You know, in my view, I've been... You know, I'm pretty, I'm pretty open about it, and the podcast is very much about this, is that I think there was a over-identification of the self, of the individual with the Rebbe's person. That you just basically, you know, h- halnt zi chzun klammke became a, a thing where you just, "As long as I'm around the Rebbe and, and-

1:22:37 Speaker 3 Right

1:22:37 Speaker 2 ... with the Rebbe on his team-

1:22:39 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:22:39 Speaker 2 ... then I'm good."

1:22:40 Speaker 3 I don't have to do anything-

1:22:41 Speaker 2 Right

1:22:41 Speaker 3 ... of my own work.

1:22:42 Speaker 2 Right. And-

1:22:42 Speaker 3 Which is, which is, which is, a, a, a rejection of the Rebbe's mission statement.

1:22:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:47 Speaker 3 In Basi Legani.

1:22:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:48 Speaker 3 Yarov. Right?

1:22:48 Speaker 2 Right. Right. And, and, and, and it's, it's, it's great that you bring up that maymer. That maymer i- it's hard in many ways to internalize it as a Hasid or as a student of the Rebbe because th- it's... I don't know if there's any other maymer where the Rebbe speaks of himself as a student or himself as a Hasid-

1:23:08 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

1:23:08 Speaker 2 ... and as a re- and being reluctant of, of... Th- the Rebbe says, "We are, we are in this era, in this, in this new era." You know, Not by choice, not by will. Right? And then he says that w- everybody has this mission, and everybody knows in their own heart that, that they're insufficient. So the chsidische way is he's not talking about him, he's talking about us. How do you know? How do you know? Why are you immediately assuming that when the Rebbe says something, he means something else? Maybe he means it honestly about himself. Maybe, maybe the Rebbe who took a year to be convinced when there was no other options, maybe he was deeply, deeply unsure about being able to do it.

1:23:55 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:23:56 Speaker 2 Maybe, maybe, maybe when he says that, that's what he means. Like, isn't that a possibility? Right. And, and, and-

1:24:03 Speaker 3 Somehow, though, if you go along those lines, you're somehow less of a Mekubal. You're less of a believer. You're less.

1:24:12 Speaker 2 But it all comes back to the same thing because it's all about... It's, it's because this idea of struggling with responsibility, this idea of risking a choice without being 100% sure that it's the right thing, is something that we think is somehow outside of the envelope. It's something that... And you read the Rabbeim, you know, you read the Rabbeim talking. And I'm not even some big bucky in this stuff, but you literally dip your finger in it. You open up this And the Rebbe Rashab telling his son, the Frierdiker Rebbe, to go on the tzin of his fathers to ask that they should be matzliach. The b- this, th- these w- th- they were deeply concerned c- You know, when you're concerned, that means you don't know how it's gonna work out. And the Fri- and the Rebbe Rashab says, "You're thr- you're threatening me that you're gonna kick me out of Lubavitch, um, if I, if I don't follow your orders. Kick me out of Lubavitch, I'm not going to... You know, I'm going to do it wherever else. Like, I'm, I'm going to do what I feel is true regardless of what happens, but not because I'm convinced it's all gonna work out, but bec- because I know that this is what I have to do."

1:25:15 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:25:16 Speaker 2 Right? And, uh, uh, I'm saying the Rabbeim spoke this way about themselves. Why can't we speak this way about ourselves? Right? You, you know, you, you're talking earlier about, you know, like, people using the Rebbe... Like, I would always tell people, "Don't Rebbe me." Like, don't like, you know, "The Rebbe said a sicha," and like shove it-

1:25:34 Speaker 3 It drives me crazy

1:25:34 Speaker 2 ... shove, shove it down my throat.

1:25:35 Speaker 3 It, it, it, it drives me away so fast.

1:25:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's disgusting. I mean, it's-

1:25:40 Speaker 3 And, and, and-

1:25:41 Speaker 2 It's repul-

1:25:41 Speaker 3 ... just personally, for me

1:25:42 Speaker 2 ... it's repul- it's repulsive because-

1:25:44 Speaker 3 And then when I start to go, "One second, but why did the Rebbe say that? What was the context?" Doesn't matter.

1:25:48 Speaker 2 Right. No, it's, it's repulsive because, because it's, it's, i- i- so, so first of all, who are you? Like, like, like, we... Because you have a source, therefore now it shuts down the conversation. Like Second of all, second of all, is, like, we've created a Rebbe that basically is patching every... all the time.

1:26:08 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:26:08 Speaker 2 You say something, patch. The patches you.

1:26:11 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:11 Speaker 2 You say something else, another sicha patches you. And, and, and like, it's all about... And, and it creates a, a, a, a, a, a, a, um, a culture of fear of like, "If I do- if I step out of line-

1:26:22 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:26:22 Speaker 2 ... some, some guy who knows more than me-

1:26:24 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:26:24 Speaker 2 ... is gonna whack me." So going back to when-

1:26:26 Speaker 3 Oh, and he's given license because he knows more than you.

1:26:29 Speaker 2 No, and he's given licen- license to do it in a nasty, aggressive way.

1:26:32 Speaker 3 Oh.

1:26:32 Speaker 2 So for example, for example, going back to that earlier podcast that I had with my brother, who, look, he's my brother. I stand with my brother.

1:26:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:40 Speaker 2 I... And I also s- I also stand with everything that he said.

1:26:43 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:44 Speaker 2 And I also know that he and I both consciously kept out some of the really gory details about his yeshiva experience-

1:26:53 Speaker 3 I picked, I picked up on that. I picked up on that

1:26:53 Speaker 2 ... because, because I didn't wanna turn it into a, into a, into a, into a, you know, sound-

1:26:57 Speaker 3 Well, it sounded to me like he had some miserable experiences in yeshiva

1:27:00 Speaker 2 There were some Russian yeshivas who did terrible, terrible things to him.

1:27:03 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:03 Speaker 2 Objectively.

1:27:04 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:27:04 Speaker 2 Not like in hi- his imagination. Like, said things to him in public in front of other boys.

1:27:08 Speaker 3 I believe it.

1:27:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, my brother struggled with obesity, and at the time. Today, he's a very fit guy. But, you know, he struggled with obesity and, and, and mashpiyim or rosh yeshivas made fun of him in public.

1:27:18 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:27:18 Speaker 2 Okay? And, you know- We didn't speak about it, and we're not, I'm not naming names now either. It... But, like, she didn't even say that, and what's the response? The response is that there's a sikha somewhere or a letter somewhere, 'cause you're saying that s- that shlichus comes at a cost possibly of chinuch or, or makes chinuch more challenging, complicated. There's a sikha that the rabbi wrote somewhere or a letter that the rabbi said somewhere that the whole nekuda of shlichus is chinuch. So how could you say that chinuch and shlichus are at odds? And I said-

1:27:49 Speaker 3 So it must be that your parents... And how many years were they in, in, in, in Hong Kong?

1:27:54 Speaker 2 Uh, almost 40.

1:27:55 Speaker 3 40 years of failure.

1:27:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:57 Speaker 3 They failed-

1:27:57 Speaker 2 No, no, no

1:27:58 Speaker 3 ... because... No, I, I'm being-

1:27:59 Speaker 2 Right, right

1:27:59 Speaker 3 ... I'm mocking it, I'm throwing it on its head.

1:28:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:01 Speaker 3 And I think that it's, it's th- th- that, that is so heartless and it's so inconsistent-

1:28:08 Speaker 2 No, and it got to my mo-

1:28:08 Speaker 3 With what-

1:28:08 Speaker 2 It, it got to my parents. It got to my parents, and it was extremely hurtful. It's extremely hurtful.

1:28:12 Speaker 3 Listen-

1:28:13 Speaker 2 But it, it w-

1:28:13 Speaker 3 I don't know your parents personally

1:28:15 Speaker 2 They're not perfect, and they know they're not perfect.

1:28:16 Speaker 3 No, but they, they, they, they, they, uh... When I was, when I was by your, your, your grandfather, I happened to come across, and I didn't go through his personal stuff. Okay? I just wanna tell you.

1:28:26 Speaker 2 That's why you hung around the Talmud.

1:28:28 Speaker 3 He gave, he gave me orders that if there were certain people that would show up in Philadelphia who will remain nameless, he said, "Moshe," you lock the door immediately, lock both the doors, and you call me up. Do not let him into the office." I remember that, like, that, there were the giving orders.

1:28:40 Speaker 2 Right.

1:28:41 Speaker 3 But I, I think he... I, I asked him about it. He showed me a letter that was written by your father to... I, I don't even remember who it was addressed to, but I just remember how, how difficult the situation in Hong Kong was at the time and asking for help and asking for, for... So, so, so I just remember this. This is what-

1:29:02 Speaker 2 No, my parents, my parents asked to leave a few times

1:29:04 Speaker 3 ... this is 20 years ago.

1:29:06 Speaker 2 This is public.

1:29:06 Speaker 3 I remember this letter.

1:29:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:07 Speaker 3 But I don't remember all the details. Just thinking to myself at a, as a 22-year-old boy-

1:29:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:11 Speaker 3 ... bocher.

1:29:12 Speaker 2 Right.

1:29:13 Speaker 3 How hard this situation was. And this letter was written in the '90s-

1:29:16 Speaker 2 Right

1:29:16 Speaker 3 ... or maybe even the '80s. No, I think it was the '80s. So-

1:29:19 Speaker 2 It was the late '80s, yeah.

1:29:20 Speaker 3 So yeah. So, so, so-

1:29:21 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, one second, one second. The story-

1:29:23 Speaker 3 Sorry

1:29:23 Speaker 2 ... if we're, if I'm gonna, if we're gonna bring it up-

1:29:25 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:29:25 Speaker 2 ... my parents were never sent out on shlichus to Hong Kong as, in a permanent way. My father was there as a bocher beforehand-

1:29:34 Speaker 3 Okay

1:29:34 Speaker 2 ... working for the shul. He, he went out on shlichus as like a bocher shlichus. It started off as like a temporary couple month shlichus with another bocher, and then it, the other bocher went back to New York and he stayed on and he, then he got a contract for a year or something. Then he, he came back and got married.

1:29:50 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:29:51 Speaker 2 And he went back with my mother to finish up the contract.

1:29:54 Speaker 3 And ended up staying for a good time.

1:29:55 Speaker 2 My mother never agreed to stay.

1:29:57 Speaker 3 Uh-huh.

1:29:58 Speaker 2 Once... Never agreed to go for, for good. Like, she wanted to go on shlichus but not to Hong Kong.

1:30:02 Speaker 3 Right.

1:30:03 Speaker 2 Okay? Once they went, I don't know all the details, and some know-it-all will tell me that they... I, I w- the, what I've always understood, and I've heard this from... I've corroborated the general story from others, and also I trust my parents primarily.

1:30:15 Speaker 3 Right.

1:30:17 Speaker 2 Say for all the know-it-alls out there. They, they, they... Either he got his contract extended. At some point, he was fired by the community. I don't know if it was from the first original contract or the next contract. He was fired from the community and, uh, and, um, basically the community wanted them out of Hong Kong. There's one shul.

1:30:40 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:30:40 Speaker 2 We don't want another rabbi here. You've done your time. Thank you for your service. I don't know what hap- what politics happened. In general, they, they go through rabbis there pretty quickly. We're done with you, out.

1:30:50 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:30:50 Speaker 2 Once the community wanted him out, the rabbi refu... Somebody that's sent from Lubavitch does not get kicked out of a city. So my parents were caught between the community telling them to get the heck out-

1:31:02 Speaker 3 Mm

1:31:02 Speaker 2 ... and writing a letter f- signed by everybody in the community that was worth, that was worth anything in the community to get the heck out, and the rabbi's insistence that you cannot leave. I ca- cannot give in. So my parents could never leave even though they were never sent really permanently and even though my mother especially had never agreed to go permanently.

1:31:22 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:31:23 Speaker 2 Right? So yet they stayed. My, my mother wrote two or three times to the rabbi to leave.

1:31:29 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:31:30 Speaker 2 And each time they were told her basically, "No, you cannot leave." Okay? And so against that backdrop of not even wanting to be there in the first place-

1:31:40 Speaker 3 Right

1:31:40 Speaker 2 ... or not wanting to go there in the first place, although I'm sure there are many happy moments, but they never dis- you know, you're always that moment of like, "I never agreed to come here." Whenever you're down, you remember that, right? You remember that.

1:31:50 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:31:51 Speaker 2 Right. Okay? Against that you have the obvious challenge of being one of the first or only, you know, at the time there were others, but it was the first family of Shluchim that have kids that for them to go to another school they need to travel to different continents.

1:32:05 Speaker 3 Across time zones.

1:32:06 Speaker 2 No, different continent.

1:32:07 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:32:07 Speaker 2 Okay? A different ocean.

1:32:08 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:32:09 Speaker 2 Okay? The, the, the compromise was to go to Melbourne, Australia, which was 10 hours away 'cause it's a similar time zone, but it's 10 hours away.

1:32:17 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

1:32:18 Speaker 2 Okay? It's like if something happens, an emergency, my parents won't be there for 24 hours.

1:32:23 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:32:23 Speaker 2 Okay? So a- a- against all of that, my brother and I are talking about the challenge of, of a- of adapting from that world to, you know, from the world of Hong Kong which is a very different world than-

1:32:36 Speaker 3 But this is so-

1:32:37 Speaker 2 And then someone has audacity-

1:32:39 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:32:39 Speaker 2 ... to say... By the way, people who-

1:32:41 Speaker 3 But it's so-

1:32:41 Speaker 2 The people who, the people who came out against it all live in places with multiple chinuch options obviously.

1:32:47 Speaker 3 It's so-

1:32:47 Speaker 2 But one second.

1:32:48 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:32:48 Speaker 2 They all go, "But there's a letter somewhere or a sikha somewhere that says that the whole point of shlichus is chinuch." And my answer is, "Nobody was thinking that. Nobody was thinking that." You now Googled some, some, um, some sikha that aligns with your opinion, and I'm not saying it's not true.

1:33:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:33:07 Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's not true. But don't now try to convince me and gaslight me that when people were going to ek velt in the world-

1:33:15 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:33:15 Speaker 2 ... they were thinking about chinuch and that's why they were going.

1:33:17 Speaker 3 And therefore also somehow now your brother brought those terrible abusive situations on himself.

1:33:24 Speaker 2 Right.

1:33:24 Speaker 3 And he ha- and he's to blame-

1:33:26 Speaker 2 Right. Of course

1:33:26 Speaker 3 ... because we can't look at- The, the system-

1:33:29 Speaker 2 Right

1:33:29 Speaker 3 ... and, or, or the system that he was a part of, and look at the, the, the imperfections. And in every system there's imperfections.

1:33:38 Speaker 2 Right. But I don't wanna dwell... So I mean, I, I'm just, I'm just fleshing out that kind of aggressive, very like, very like, very heavy-handed-

1:33:46 Speaker 3 It's a knee jerker

1:33:47 Speaker 2 ... and it's like, it's like if, if that was, if that's a Rebbe to you, I don't know how you live with him. I certainly can't live with that kind of, that kind of slapping relationship where like, where like you whack people out... Like, with- without heart, without heart. You're talking about a situation that's very, very, very real, and you just come with a letter that you found on the internet or a sicha you found on the internet and decide that somehow that makes your life, makes your boy more comfortable, so now you, now you knock, now you knock the story down. I don't wanna talk about that 'cause I, I think most people agree that that's incorrect, right? But I would talk with something that's more subtle and in, and way more pernicious, right? Something that's, I guess you could call it passive-aggressive, but I don't know if it's passive-aggressive. It's just, it's just more subtle, more pernicious. When you're about to do something, you have a project, you have your Shliach of Chabad House, you wanna do something-

1:34:39 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:34:39 Speaker 2 ... that's a little bit, let's say different or new, and then someone comes say, "What did Rebbe say about this?"

1:34:47 Speaker 3 Oh. Oh.

1:34:48 Speaker 2 One second. One second. That is less, that is less aggressive because that person also doesn't know.

1:34:54 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:34:54 Speaker 2 'Cause if he knew, he would tell you.

1:34:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:34:57 Speaker 2 But he doesn't know. So then he goes, "What did Rebbe say about this?" What's wrong with that? Is there something wrong with that? Like, what's wrong with, with, with asking or, or, or bringing up to someone, you know, would you be, or would you be okay bringing this to the Rebbe or something like this? And I feel, I feel that let's even say that the, the motives of the person who brings it up is, is pure.

1:35:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:35:20 Speaker 2 Let's assume, okay? What that does, and I'm not, I'm not sure that it makes it wrong, but I think there's a cost to it, and I do think it's wrong. But even if you don't think it's wrong, there's a cost to it. What that does is it makes everybody err on the side of caution.

1:35:38 Speaker 3 Right.

1:35:38 Speaker 2 And real caution.

1:35:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:35:40 Speaker 2 Right? Because now you're not only worried what would the Rebbe say, but you're worried about what other people would say about what the Rebbe would say.

1:35:46 Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:35:46 Speaker 2 Right? And so everybody just basically stays in line.

1:35:49 Speaker 3 Right. So-

1:35:50 Speaker 2 And it's like, it's like-

1:35:51 Speaker 3 Well, I think I-

1:35:52 Speaker 2 ... how are, how are you going to, how are you going to adapt to a, to, like you said, new problems, new situations, new, new things going on, new conditions if you're constantly scared to, to make a mistake?

1:36:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:36:08 Speaker 2 You can make a mistake.

1:36:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I think that the question in and of itself is not a, a, a, a damaging question. It's, it's okay if we are ‹Shluchim› of the Rebbe. Not only is it okay, I think that it's incumbent upon us to say-

1:36:20 Speaker 2 Right

1:36:20 Speaker 3 ... you know, is this in line with the Rebbe's vision?

1:36:23 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:23 Speaker 3 Um, because the Rebbe did, does, did, does and will have a vision, uh, in how he would like his, uh, movement called the Chabad Lubavitch movement to be, right? We could, we could agree on that. It's not-

1:36:36 Speaker 2 Right

1:36:36 Speaker 3 ... uh, you know, i-i-- because, because when you don't have that, you have, you know, let's all, you know, smoke meth and-

1:36:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:36:45 Speaker 3 ... and, and, and, and in a, in a circle in the name of the Rebbe. No, that, that doesn't fly.

1:36:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:36:50 Speaker 3 However, you know, that's... I'm taking something to, to a extreme point.

1:36:55 Speaker 2 Well, look, the, the-

1:36:56 Speaker 3 Once the question... But I, I could look back at the person, "What would the Rebbe say about this?" You know what? I'm not sure.

1:37:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:03 Speaker 3 But I think based on my limited ability to survey the situation, to, to, to comprehend what the challenge is and what my end goal is, I am willing to take the risk, okay? So long as it's within the, the, the, the confines of, uh, or the parameters of ‹Shulchan Aruch›.

1:37:26 Speaker 2 Right, right.

1:37:27 Speaker 3 And, and I'm not, uh, doing anything which is ‹hepach halacha›.

1:37:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:33 Speaker 3 I'm going to run with this, and maybe-

1:37:36 Speaker 2 Right

1:37:36 Speaker 3 ... maybe it is all a mistake.

1:37:38 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:38 Speaker 3 We think every single program that we do, that's exactly like the 4,000 ‹shluchim› that did it before us, and I got my cookie cutter version of how to do ‹shlichas›-

1:37:46 Speaker 2 Right

1:37:47 Speaker 3 ... and the exact version of how to sing ‹Hodu› in the morning on Shabbos morning and ‹Hader Salmona›.

1:37:51 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:52 Speaker 3 That works for every Chabad House. No, it doesn't.

1:37:53 Speaker 2 Right.

1:37:54 Speaker 3 And the, the, the... what, what happens though is when we fall into that trap of thinking-

1:37:58 Speaker 2 Right

1:37:58 Speaker 3 ... we're also comparing ourselves to the successes of others, and we feel like a failure-

1:38:04 Speaker 2 Right

1:38:04 Speaker 3 ... in everything that we do.

1:38:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:06 Speaker 3 So it, it starts from that, that ‹nekuda›-

1:38:09 Speaker 2 Right

1:38:10 Speaker 3 ... that, that, that focal starting point of just like I'm a unique person, so too is my... I'm just using ‹shlichas› as an example, but you could do it in the way that I raise my kids.

1:38:20 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:20 Speaker 3 In the way that, in the way the, in, in, in, in the way that my Shabbos table runs, in the way... Somebody was telling me recently, "It was by a disgusting Shabbos table." I said, "What was so disgusting? What did they, they serve ‹chazer› on the table?"

1:38:33 Speaker 2 What's with your friends and the way they talk?

1:38:34 Speaker 3 No, it wasn't, it wasn't friends.

1:38:36 Speaker 2 I'm kidding.

1:38:38 Speaker 3 They, they, they, they, they, they clearly they didn't sing a ‹nigun› and they-

1:38:41 Speaker 2 Right

1:38:41 Speaker 3 ... ‹var mitalim› and then-

1:38:43 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:44 Speaker 3 Okay. So you, you just took a whole group of people, a family, and all their guests, and you, you wrote them off as disgusting.

1:38:50 Speaker 2 You, you put them in the garbage.

1:38:52 Speaker 3 Exactly. A-and you feel great about yourself.

1:38:55 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:55 Speaker 3 You feel great about yourself.

1:38:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:38:57 Speaker 3 But these are people that are striving to do Shabbos in their way.

1:39:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:02 Speaker 3 They're striving to be wholesome in their way, and I happen to know these people.

1:39:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:06 Speaker 3 So, uh, I, I, I, I don't think that their Shabbos table's disgusting. It doesn't look like the Shabbos table that you wanted or that you would-

1:39:15 Speaker 2 Right

1:39:15 Speaker 3 ... like for yourself. But it's, it's, uh-

1:39:19 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah. Yeah. There, there, there, there's something, there's something about, you know, the... I guess the question then becomes-

1:39:28 Speaker 3 Do you think we're more judgmental than other groups? I don't. I, I think that the ‹chlal›, any religion has a, a form of-

1:39:38 Speaker 2 What's-

1:39:39 Speaker 3 ... self, self-assessment, right? Who's in the tribe and who's out of the tribe?

1:39:41 Speaker 2 What do you mean more... Which, which other groups are you talking about? Other ‹chsidam›?

1:39:44 Speaker 3 Let's, let's narrow it down, right?

1:39:45 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:46 Speaker 3 So there's religions as a whole.

1:39:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:47 Speaker 3 I'm sure that, uh, if you look at other religions or any tribe, right?

1:39:51 Speaker 2 Right.

1:39:52 Speaker 3 Who, who is safe for the tribe and who's unsafe for the tribe? Who will protect-

1:39:57 Speaker 2 Right

1:39:57 Speaker 3 ... our, our, our, our group and the focal point, and who is a danger to our group and our focal point?

1:40:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:03 Speaker 3 And you can narrow it down as, as Jews.

1:40:05 Speaker 2 So it's like you have-

1:40:05 Speaker 3 We even have this internal con-

1:40:06 Speaker 2 Are, are you on the P or on the L of the... Are you... Which column are you on? The profit column or the loss column, right? Are you, are you a net boon-

1:40:13 Speaker 3 Right. Right, right

1:40:13 Speaker 2 ... to our group, or are you a net loss?

1:40:15 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:40:15 Speaker 2 Are you a net, a net boon part of it? Net loss get

1:40:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:40:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:40:20 Speaker 3 Not only get, get out of here, but I'm gonna do everything in my power to-

1:40:23 Speaker 2 To crush you

1:40:24 Speaker 3 ... to at least make sure that you know that in my opinion- ... you do not-

1:40:28 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:40:28 Speaker 3 ... uh, uh, you do not deserve-

1:40:30 Speaker 2 Right

1:40:31 Speaker 3 ... a seat at our table.

1:40:32 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:32 Speaker 3 Right?

1:40:33 Speaker 2 Right.

1:40:33 Speaker 3 I, I, there's, there's a lot of that, but I-

1:40:34 Speaker 2 I mean, is it, is it, is it a Lubavitch thing? I, I frankly, I, I... Look, I don't think it's a Lubavitch thing. I, I think if you're gonna be intellectually honest, I think it's a common, it's a common thing. There's, there's... And in many ways, look, for, for what it's worth, I wouldn't care to do this podcast if I thought it was a bunch of mishigayim who had, were, were not acting in good faith, and it's like, uh, uh, like, why would I waste my time? Like, I could just say bye. I could just, like, live my own life.

1:41:04 Speaker 3 No. You, you, you, you're deeply, deeply connected to Lubavitch. I mean-

1:41:08 Speaker 2 But, but if I-

1:41:09 Speaker 3 It is

1:41:09 Speaker 2 ... but if I think, if I think it's, if I think it's, like, this crazy place, this, this base mishigayim-

1:41:14 Speaker 3 Right

1:41:14 Speaker 2 ... that acts like in a ridiculous way compared to everybody else, why am I... Like, okay.

1:41:19 Speaker 3 Right.

1:41:20 Speaker 2 Bye.

1:41:20 Speaker 3 But you, you, you-

1:41:21 Speaker 2 I don't think that.

1:41:22 Speaker 3 No.

1:41:22 Speaker 2 I don't th- I don't think that. And I, and in many ways, if I, if I want to, if I want to sometimes kind of wax poetic or push back the other way or just kind of balance my thinking, there are many indications that it's quite the opposite. There's a, there is a stri- Like, th-there are many people who will tell you, "Look, I don't agree with what you're saying, but, you know, um-"

1:41:44 Speaker 3 Yeah. But those aren't people... One second. Let's be honest. I've s- I, I'm on some of the same- ... WhatsApp groups as you, where you have these-

1:41:51 Speaker 2 Loudmouths

1:41:51 Speaker 3 ... people... No, it's not just loudmouths. In my opinion-

1:41:55 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:41:55 Speaker 3 ... and yes, I'm talking to you. Okay? Even though you write in Hebrew.

1:41:59 Speaker 2 No, he doesn't listen anymore.

1:42:00 Speaker 3 He's one of those.

1:42:00 Speaker 2 He doesn't listen anymore.

1:42:00 Speaker 3 Okay. That's, that's fine. You think of yourself as a gatekeeper. You think that you, and you alone, are holding up the covenant, and you are holding up the, the, the, the, the, the very foundational pillars of Lubavitch. You're not. You're not. So get over yourself. And it's not only him, it's all the silent people that are poking fun. And, and instead of being brave enough-

1:42:21 Speaker 2 It doesn't, it doesn't-

1:42:22 Speaker 3 No, no, no.

1:42:22 Speaker 2 It doesn't bo-

1:42:22 Speaker 3 You'll always get criticism.

1:42:23 Speaker 2 But it doesn't, it doesn't bother me.

1:42:24 Speaker 3 You should accept the criticism-

1:42:24 Speaker 2 It doesn't bother me

1:42:25 Speaker 3 ... because some of the criticism is healthy.

1:42:27 Speaker 2 It do- it doesn't... Look, when somebody co- Look, it doesn't bo- it doesn't bother me. Uh, maybe it doesn't bother me 'cause it hasn't been pointed yet, maybe 'cause I haven't seen the worst of it, it hasn't come to me. Maybe it's just behind my back. It, look, it doesn't bother me. The, uh, look, look, yeah, you have to be fair. 10 years, y- after, after the Reb Maharash passed away, there was 10 years with Reb Rashab and his brother, the Raazab, for a couple years, but the Rashab was there, and he was saying chasidus, uh, kind of being Mekubal, pedanus, but not. It was k- it was complicated. He didn't officially assume the title-

1:42:59 Speaker 3 They were in flux. Yeah

1:42:59 Speaker 2 ... he didn't officially assume the title of Rebbe for 10 years.

1:43:02 Speaker 3 By the way, historically, those were looked at as dark years in Lubavitch.

1:43:05 Speaker 2 No, no, worse, uh, worse than that. The Philip Rebbe called it Horben Lubavitch.

1:43:08 Speaker 3 Horben Lubavitch. Wow.

1:43:08 Speaker 2 The destruction of Lubavitch. Okay?

1:43:10 Speaker 3 Wow.

1:43:10 Speaker 2 Okay? And, and that was with the Reb Rashab there.

1:43:14 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:43:15 Speaker 2 The Reb Rashab, I don't know if at the point, uh, that, uh, already then, but soon after, had a son. So there was continuity, discontinuity.

1:43:22 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:43:22 Speaker 2 He, he had assumed the responsibility to some extent, and it was still considered Horben Lubavitch.

1:43:26 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:43:27 Speaker 2 Right? We are now 30 years after Gimel Tammuz.

1:43:30 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:43:31 Speaker 2 There, there is no successor.

1:43:33 Speaker 3 Nope.

1:43:33 Speaker 2 Right? Um, so if you use the analog to then, we're at least 3X Horben Lubavitch, okay? And it, it, it's more because it goes exponentially. It doesn't, you know, it, it gets worse and worse with time-

1:43:45 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:43:45 Speaker 2 ... obviously. Right? And so it, it's easy to come and, you know, poke holes and say, or, or poke out, you know, like, "Uh, this is crazy. This is crazy. These people..." Like, I think we, we, like, we have to, we have to be, we have to be fair and say, look, like I'll, I'll tell you for example. Somebody, somebody reached out to me at the beginning when I, when I started the podcast. Somebody reached out, a guy that I know of peripherally. Probably knew him less than I knew you. Well, I knew him about the way I knew you be- from before.

1:44:16 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:44:17 Speaker 2 Like, you know, I, I had met him in camp back in the day. If, uh, if I called him up, he would know my name, but like he's a shliach somewhere. Like, you know, not like... We haven't been in, in touch.

1:44:28 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:44:29 Speaker 2 But he knows who I am. I know who he is. He's much older than me. And he sends me this beautiful note. I thought it was beautiful, where he's like: "Look, I understand what you're doing because I understand the need for it. People need this kind of conversation. But understand that this is a very sensitive and dear subject to many of us. You know, just treat it with respect, plea-" Or, and he didn't say then, and it kind of comes anyway. Like just, you know, "Please try, please treat it with the respect it deserves," or something like that.

1:44:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:44:57 Speaker 2 And I was very touched by it.

1:44:58 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:44:58 Speaker 2 Because, because-

1:45:00 Speaker 3 Well, I think you have been very, very respectful. I think that-

1:45:02 Speaker 2 I appreciate that, but I'm saying-

1:45:04 Speaker 3 How many podcasts have you done? 'Cause I listened to 30.

1:45:07 Speaker 2 I've released 30.

1:45:08 Speaker 3 Oh.

1:45:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.