Ep. 31 // "The Image I Remember" w/ Marc Asnin

00:00 Speaker 1 I was on, I, I was above, and all of a sudden some guy in a black hat's going, "Jump, jump." And I said, "You can't jump, I'm in a synagogue." I thought, "You can't jump in a synagogue, that's so disrespectful." And he said, "No, no, jump." And that rabbi pulled me along, and then I made maybe four or five frames of that, you know, and that image was compositionally the image that Kathy Ryan then picked.

00:31 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2024. My name is Bentzi Hofatsen, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. So I'm here with Mark Asnin, um, a very special podcast, um, a very special episode for the podcast. Very thankful for you making the time.

01:00 Speaker 1 Thank you.

01:00 Speaker 2 And for the patience to let me find a SD card.

01:05 Speaker 1 It's all good. All good.

01:05 Speaker 2 Right. But, uh, you know, without an SD card, this conversation would not be recorded for everyone to listen to.

01:11 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

01:12 Speaker 2 Um, so Mark, Mark Asnin is a photographer, um, has been a photographer for many, many years, and is the photographer of some of the most iconic photos and some of the last photos, right?

01:28 Speaker 1 Yes. I mean-

01:29 Speaker 2 Some of the last photos-

01:30 Speaker 1 Before the Rebbe had a stroke. Yes

01:32 Speaker 2 ... before the Rebbe had a stroke. And we're gonna hear some more of the background of that and so on. But, you know, th- we'll, we'll put it, we'll put it on the podcast, but there's a famous photo of the Rebbe giving an address, and the Rebbe, which is very interesting, at least for me, being in the, you know, in the visual world, the way you framed it, where the Rebbe is not in the center or, you know, with the rule of thirds.

01:55 Speaker 1 Right.

01:55 Speaker 2 But the Rebbe is kind of, you're breaking the rule of thirds, where the main subject is, is forward, and leaving a lot of the foreground is diminished compared to the background, right?

02:06 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

02:07 Speaker 2 And you see the Rebbe talking almost to what's out of frame, and what you see in frame is behind the Rebbe. And, um, I have a personal connection to that photo because one of the elderly Hasidim who is bending over the table to either to hear more of what the Rebbe's saying or because someone's pushing him down is my grandfather, uh, Rabbi Meir Hofatsen, so.

02:28 Speaker 1 Well, when we're finished the podcast, it'd be my honor, I have a print to give you of that.

02:33 Speaker 2 Thank you very much. I would, I would be very grateful. So I, to be honest, I had, I hadn't heard your name. I, I'd seen your work, of course, but I hadn't heard your name. And, uh, a week ago, Sarah Ogins-

02:47 Speaker 1 Yes

02:47 Speaker 2 ... Sarah s-

02:47 Speaker 1 Who helped edit the book. Yes

02:49 Speaker 2 She, she reached out to me and told me the story, would I like to have the podcast. And I know Dovid from a whiles back, Dovid Zaklikowski, who's also working on this book, which we'll hear more about soon. Um, and I th- I thought it'd be a great opportunity to hear, to hear your story and to, to see, you know, what, what we can learn from it about Lubavitch identity back in the '90s and, and today. I'm sure you have plenty to share.

03:13 Speaker 1 Sure.

03:13 Speaker 2 So thank you again.

03:14 Speaker 1 Thank you.

03:15 Speaker 2 So why don't we begin, why don't we begin with that, you know, that famous kind of starting point of you coming as a photographer for The New York Times, was it?

03:25 Speaker 1 Yes. So I came in, uh, the beginning of 1992. I was assigned from The New York Times Sunday Magazine, which had a different, uh, director of photography than the daily newspaper. Uh, Kathy Ryan, uh, called me and, uh, gave me assignment. Um, and she told me after, you know, the magazine was published and the story came out, that one of the reasons she gave me the story was not just because of my photographic skills or her appreciation of my photography, but that she remembers one time we were out in a social setting, you know, with some other photographers and, uh, she remem- she said that we had talked about a lot of, about Hasidim, and that she knew I was an expert on Hasidim. And I sort of remember the place that happened, but I don't sort of remember that conversation. And obviously I'm happy that she thought I was informed about that. As a documentary photographer, you need to know what's going on in the world around you. But I mean, even today, I'm not an expert on Hasidism. I mean, I know a lot about Chabad and, you know, my life was shaped and my family's life was shaped and changed after that as- that assignment. But that was, uh, the assignment and, um, originally it was in black and white, and I came, um, the first time on a Sun- I think I'm on a Sunday. Well, maybe I did. I, I think I came for Dollar Day, and I met Rabbi

05:13 Speaker 1 Krinsky, and he was, you know, my, you know, my, uh, connection, you know, to go see. And, uh, and I was pretty nervous, you know, 'cause obviously I knew nothing about 770 or, you know, I knew very little. And I had read the story written by Michael Specter. The story basically had been written, so I had that information. But I think I showed up not s- nervous as a photographer, but I showed up nervous as a Jew.

05:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:49 Speaker 1 Because I thought like, "Okay," like, "Oh my God, these guys in black hats" And we'll get into, like, my own experience growing up as someone who didn't come from a, you know, a, an observant family, and sort of my experience in Hebrew school, after school Hebrew school with Orthodox rabbis. That was not a- ... pleasurable experience, and I thought, "Okay," like, you know, "I'm on assignment, and you gotta suck it up, and whatever comes your way," like that's the reality, you know? And I had done many other hard stories. And so that was my first thing. And when I got there, like everyone was very friendly, and um, I think soon into being in Rabbi Krinsky's office, they asked me to put tefillin on, and I did. And then I photographed the Rebbe, and you know, it was like a pretty short ex- you know, there he was on Dollar Day, and you know, I was making pictures. And for me it was a much more visual, the, the entire... Most of the time being around the Rebbe, it's a visual process. Uh, I wasn't really thinking about, um, oh, this, what these people are so much. I'm there to make imagery, and the s- the writer's making, writing the story, and sharing that.

07:14 Speaker 2 What was the story about? What was the, what was the theme or the thesis of the story?

07:20 Speaker 1 You know, like this incredibly important, um, man, Rebbe, you know? And I think for the bigger world, like not understanding the difference between a Rebbe and a rabbi, and you know-

07:34 Speaker 2 Yes

07:34 Speaker 1 ... this understanding of like, you know, it was called The Oracle of Crown Heights, like this incredible leadership, and it, it, it was the Rebbe's 90th birthday.

07:45 Speaker 2 Mm.

07:46 Speaker 1 So it's a reflection on who the Rebbe is, the community. I don't-- I think it probably dealt with the, the Messiah issue.

07:54 Speaker 2 Right.

07:54 Speaker 1 You know, which... But again, when I'm there, that's not what I'm focused on.

08:01 Speaker 2 Sure.

08:01 Speaker 1 Like I'm there to make powerful moving images that will accompany and-

08:07 Speaker 2 Sure

08:07 Speaker 1 ... and you know, it's sort of like a dance. Like my visual-ness will help the story, and that story. So, you know, you're collaborating even though you're not together, it's a collaboration.

08:19 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, which, yes, is my video production company. At Yuvala Media, we believe in the same principles as this podcast. Namely, that in our communities, there are just so many stories worth sharing and worth telling, and that in the end, a good story is always so much more. Over the past few years, we have helped dozens of nonprofits, companies, and families share their very precious stories with the community. If you're looking to share your story, please don't hesitate to reach out to us for a free consultation at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that's hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found below as well. For now, let's get back to the podcast.

09:02 Speaker 1 I received a call from someone who worked on, in Kathy Ryan's department, and said that Kathy had decided that the story needs to be in color. And I, in those days when you were working for a magazine, you typically had to shoot color slides, and that was something I didn't really like, I didn't really do well. And I told the editor working with Kathy, like, "Well, tell Kathy thank you, but I'm just not gonna do it 'cause like that's not what I do well, and someone else should do it better." You know, I think that was, for me, the professional thing to do. And 'cause Kathy knew me and knew my work, and that, that, um... His name was, I think, Steven, Steven Fine, Steve Fine. Um, and he said, "Oh yeah, Kathy knew you were gonna say that." But Kathy said, "You should call Gilles Peress," who's a photographer at Magnum, "and he's gonna tell you how to shoot color negative." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not shooting." And she said, "Yeah, Kathy knows you can do it."

10:07 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:07 Speaker 1 Okay, and like Kathy Ryan is this very, you know, renowned someone who I think really understands photography, documentary photography. So I did what she asked. I called Gilles Peress, and Gilles said, "Yeah Mark, it's nothing. It's just like photographing, uh, in black and white. You put the color film in, the color neg in, and send it to the lab. They do all the color corrections. It's nothing." So that was an interesting when we look back, like that Kathy still pushed me creatively. She didn't let this, this boundary that I had based on technique get in the way.

10:50 Speaker 2 Hmm.

10:50 Speaker 1 You can think like, oh, if she was like, "Okay," you know, "just move on," my life... Now maybe these pictures wouldn't have existed. That's true. Some other person would've made other, I think, powerful images, but I would've not be who I am today in 2024. So as you brought up, you know, Lubavitch, like my life's changed dramatically. You know, spiritually, um, my children have a very different connection to their Judaism. So I think, you know, when we look back, that was, uh, not only did Kathy give me the opportunity, but she didn't let that boundary that I had based on technique get in the way. Um, so I showed up. I did like Gilles said for a few weeks. I just put the color film in and, uh, did my thing. Um-

11:47 Speaker 2 You were there for a few weeks?

11:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, off and on, not every day.

11:50 Speaker 2 Right.

11:51 Speaker 1 But you know, all of a sudden I learned that on Mondays and Thursdays, they read from the Torah. You know, and that there were just different opportunities. You know, I-

12:02 Speaker 2 What was the... If I could-

12:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:03 Speaker 2 ... if I could just ask you for a second, what was the... You spoke about the, the crafting a visual story, which is in many ways something that I envy in photographers, because with video you're kind of- ... having both. You're, you're doing the, the image and the story, whereas with photography, you really have to nail the image, and it allows you to focus visually on what you want to capture. So what, what were you seeing? Like, what was the first impressions visually that you picked up?

12:30 Speaker 1 I mean, listen, it's, you know, it's seductive. The black hat, the bl- you know, the beards. Like, these are all very visual things, and that's not, you know, I'm not the one who figured that out. I mean, it's just you could see historically, like, you know, pictures from Poland or shtetls, and you see it 100 years later, I mean, it was an attraction. Like, not all those people were attracted on a deeper level like these are Jews, and-

12:56 Speaker 2 Right

12:56 Speaker 1 ... it's a, the, it's visual. Like, um-

13:00 Speaker 2 Right

13:00 Speaker 1 ... but when you show up, like I'm looking to build the story, and so, you know, and I, you, you think of a movie, you're moving as a... When you're watching a great movie, different camera angles, you're moving in and moving out. I'm working very close to my subjects. And maybe 20 years later, I was with Dovid in the Children's Museum, and I was in a bad mood. We had some, like, a Jewish holiday, and I was in a mad mood, and Dovid introduced me to someone. And a few minutes later, I said to the gentleman, like, "Sorry, you know, I wasn't so, you know, friendly to you. I'm just in a bad mood." And he said, "No, no." He said, "No, I know who you are. You're the photographer who photographed the Rebbe for the Oracle of Crown Heights." And I said-

13:45 Speaker 2 Wow

13:45 Speaker 1 ... "Oh yeah, thank you." And he said, "Yeah, I was a photographer, not really like you, but I was a photographer." And he said, "Yeah, it was amazing, like no one could believe how close you got to the Rebbe and took pictures." And I said, "Oh, did you think that was disrespectful?" And he said, "No, no, no. No one ever thought it was disrespectful, but no one ever got that close to the Rebbe."

14:09 Speaker 2 Physically, you came with a camera. You were using a zoom lens or no?

14:12 Speaker 1 No, no. I mean, like, when the Rebbe's at the Torah, I'm as close as you and me.

14:17 Speaker 2 Hmm.

14:18 Speaker 1 You know, and I think when you look at pictures from Farbrengens and, you know, pictures now that I see, when the Rebbe did permit pictures, I think there was a certain period there were no pictures allowed-

14:30 Speaker 2 Right

14:30 Speaker 1 ... those pictures were from a far distance with a long lens. I showed up, like I was never thinking like, "Oh, I'm standing in the corner."

14:40 Speaker 2 Right.

14:40 Speaker 1 Like, that's not what Kathy Ryan sent me to do. She sent me to do my thing based on other projects I did that she knew, like Uncle Charlie. And so, but also, you know, when looking back, no one ever told me no.

14:55 Speaker 2 Hmm.

14:56 Speaker 1 So someone like Rabbi Krinsky or Zalman Schmulkin never came and said, "Listen, you, you can't be getting-"

15:04 Speaker 2 Well, that's the number one-

15:05 Speaker 1 "... that close"

15:05 Speaker 2 ... the number one rule of photography or, or anything with a camera is better ask for forgiveness than for permission, right?

15:11 Speaker 1 Right. Right. But I even, like-

15:13 Speaker 2 You're gonna go there

15:13 Speaker 1 ... Right. But I didn't even think. Like, that was never in my mind.

15:16 Speaker 2 Right.

15:17 Speaker 1 You know? Like, no, I never-

15:19 Speaker 2 Right

15:19 Speaker 1 ... you know, until that gentleman said that to me tw- you know, 15, 20 years later, that never came up, and-

15:27 Speaker 2 So I wanted to ask you about that. As someone coming from the outside, right? Who's unaware of the protocols and, and, and, and, and the norms of how people would act around the Rebbe, right? You know, so much of the mystique or so much of the distance is created by the protocols and by the norms.

15:48 Speaker 1 Right.

15:49 Speaker 2 Right? Without those protocols and without those norms, did you, did you... What did you feel about the Rebbe's presence? How was the Rebbe different than other subjects that you had pho- photographed?

16:02 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, I think first of all, like I had... The, the projects that I did were not either assignments or personal work. Those were not typically such famous people.

16:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:19 Speaker 1 But what I did realize entering 770, this was not the typical synagogue, okay?

16:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:26 Speaker 1 You know, when I went to synagogue, you sat in the pew, you didn't breathe too heavy. Like, there were a lot of r- it was very rigid.

16:36 Speaker 2 Right.

16:36 Speaker 1 And I would say when you think of the word orthodox, even if it's not about Jewish orthodox, you know, being Jewish and orthodox, just orthodoxy in, in general, there's a rigidity.

16:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:51 Speaker 1 And soon into 770, I realized, like I had never been in a place like this. Everyone was just praying wherever they wanted. It was just... And again, like now we're talking about it, and it's very clear to me, and then, um, it was a much more unconscious process. This was not like I'm... I was feeling it-

17:16 Speaker 2 Right

17:16 Speaker 1 ... and seeing it, but I wasn't intellectualizing, and I think that's important.

17:21 Speaker 2 Right.

17:22 Speaker 1 So there's a picture in The New York Times Magazine, and it's of a guy. He's... Now he probably didn't want his picture taken, but he had like a siddur up in front of his face, and it's all kind of worn out and ripped up. And I thought like, God, like they're so passionate about davening. I mean, I knew the word davening. Like-

17:44 Speaker 2 Right

17:45 Speaker 1 ... to me, that visualness is better than like a s- a siddur that's brand new.

17:50 Speaker 2 Sure.

17:51 Speaker 1 Now he probably didn't want his picture. He put it up and, okay, that's where sometimes photos, you know, don't really tell the whole truth. But there was incredible looseness in 770.

18:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

18:04 Speaker 1 Now listen, the night of that picture, it was the Yahrtzeit of the Rebbetzin. I'm not sure if it was the 4th or the 5th. I don't think that matters. But there was a moment, you know, when I took that picture, and soon after that, the Rebbe gave out a purple prayer book and a $5 bill. So I think it was the fifth Yahrtzeit. And some guy came up to me, and somehow Zalman Shmutkin, who was like the guy with me, wasn't with me or I didn't see him, and some guy in a black hat said, "If you take a picture of Bob Dylan, you'll be thrown out forever." And then came Bob Dylan, and he got a, a brocha from the Rebbe in the purple prayer book. And a few minutes later I needed to get something in my camera bag, which was in Rabbi Krinsky's ook. So I went up, they rang me in, and there was Bob Dylan. Now I'm not a big music guy, but it's like Bob Dylan, and I'm like, "What's he doing at the Rebbe?" And talking about the atmosphere or the energy, in most other religious settings of someone so important, even like Rabbi Krinsky, I understand he's not the Rebbe.

19:14 Speaker 2 Right.

19:15 Speaker 1 They would've said, "Mark, this is just not the time now. Please, like, exit or do what you need." They're like, "Come on, sit down." So I'm like, "Okay." I sat down. They were eating corned beef sandwiches or, you know, deli meat sandwiches.

19:30 Speaker 2 Who was?

19:31 Speaker 1 Kr- Rabbi Krinsky, Rabbi Kozlovsky, Zalman, Bob Dylan- ... and his bodyguard. And I sat there and then, you know, soon Bob Dylan got up. He shook everyone's hand, including mine, and he left. And I was like, "Wow, that's pretty wild," like, that was Bob Dylan. I didn't know his name was Zimmerman. I'm much more like a sports guy than a music guy. But I got on the phone and I started calling people I knew saying, "You cannot believe, Bob Dylan was at this guy, the Rebbe." And Rabbi Kozlovsky came up, which, you know, I didn't know who he was, and said, "Oh, I think you're more impressed with Bob Dylan than the Rebbe." And I said, "Oh yeah, definitely, definitely." And okay, I'm a pretty open, direct guy. Now you could say like that's pretty stupid telling some guy you don't know that he's more important than Rebbe.

20:27 Speaker 2 Right.

20:27 Speaker 1 Rabbi Kozlovsky didn't say, "Oh, shame on you," and, and that's the world of Judaism that I had come from.

20:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:36 Speaker 1 So I was absorbing all this looseness.

20:39 Speaker 2 Mm.

20:40 Speaker 1 And that was very interesting to me. And then I have a cousin, so my... The way my family wound up, wound up not being observant, my grandmother in the 1920s married a Jewish guy, but he was a gangster, and we wound up not being religious. My mother always stayed in touch with the religious family, and one of those sons became Lubavitch, and I had met him once and I knew his parents. So when I went to 770 on that first day, I told Rabbi Krinsky and Zalman, "Oh yeah, listen guys, like I have a cousin who's one of you guys," thinking that was my way in, that they wouldn't judge me. And they said, "Oh," you know, and in the end, my cousin Yehuda Klattman lives next two houses or three houses down from Rab- Rabbi Krinsky. And I was thinking, "Yeah, that didn't go really like... I thought it would be having more weight." When I went to see Yehuda I told him like, "Yeah, I'm telling everyone you're my cousin, you know?" And he said, "Yeah, I'm telling everyone you're my cousin too." And I thought, "Oh, this guy's really like famished. Like what's up with this cousin? Like why would he ever identify with a Jew like me?" S- As the 30 years has gone on, I understood for him he was proud his cousin was photographing the Rebbe.

22:10 Speaker 2 Mm.

22:10 Speaker 1 Like for him... And that I was another Jew, that I wasn't less of a Jew, 'cause the Rebbe said there was no such thing as a Reform, we were Jewish. This was all very new to me, and I was sort of shocked thinking like, "Yeah, my cousin's probably a little off," like that doesn't make any sense. I mean, I was sort of happy to hear it, but it, it really made no sense.

22:34 Speaker 2 The looseness is something very interesting because the looseness that you've been mentioning, because even in that famous picture, um, like the Rebbe's talking on a bimah that's not always there. It's been moved there.

22:50 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

22:51 Speaker 2 And then around him are ra-

22:53 Speaker 1 Hundreds of men pushing and shoving.

22:55 Speaker 2 No, right between the men and him-

22:57 Speaker 1 Yeah

22:57 Speaker 2 ... are these ramshackle wooden tables-

23:00 Speaker 1 Right

23:01 Speaker 2 ... that have been just like nailed together, right? And like, and like-

23:04 Speaker 1 Right, it's not like a precious synagogue.

23:06 Speaker 2 No. And like, you know, uh, what was that like? Like just... Because as a photographer, like you were mentioning earlier, your job in this project was to portray a man who was, um, mysterious to many, especially the readers of the magazine, but you know, was clearly a very big and important Jewish leader. And you know, how do you, how did you kind of weigh visually the gravitas of the subject against what you said, the looseness or just kind of the ad hoc nature?

23:39 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, a few minutes before that iconic picture, he was davening east against the white wall, and I was on the same level.

23:48 Speaker 2 Right.

23:49 Speaker 1 All the sudden, like I'm not, I'm not sure if they were speaking Yiddish or Hebrew, it doesn't matter, I didn't understand.

23:56 Speaker 2 Right.

23:57 Speaker 1 And all of a sudden the whole synagogue was moving- ... and hundreds of men were pushing and... I mean, I had never seen anything like this. Like, and I was on, I, I was above, and all of a sudden some guy in a black hat's going, "Jump, jump." And I said, "You can't jump, I'm in a synagogue." I mean, you wanna talk about rigid? That's a, you know... I thought, "You can't jump in a synagogue. That's so disrespectful." And he said, "No, no, jump." And that rabbi pulled me along, and then I made maybe four or five frames of that, you know, and that image was compositionally the image that Kathy Ryan then picked. That rabbi we just saw today, it's, uh, Levi Baumgarten from the Mitzvah Tank. I had never seen such passion. I mean, you couldn't move, you know? And it was like people were just... Like it was like almost a stampede of positive energy. And yeah, I mean now I realize that the closer the better, I guess. But I think for the people listening to this podcast that don't know, let's say, the process of making images, I wasn't there consciously thinking, "Oh, that's thethe iconic image."

25:16 Speaker 2 Sure.

25:16 Speaker 1 There's four or five frames, and yeah, unconsciously and studying photography and making a lot of pictures, there's that one. And I think when you're thinking about making images, I relate it to baseball, like if you hit 3 out of 10, you're worth millions.

25:36 Speaker 2 You're a star.

25:37 Speaker 1 Right. No one ever hits 4 out of 10 except Ted Williams. Now, if your kid comes home or you come home and say to your loved ones, "Yeah, I got 3 out of 10 on my test," that's not very good.

25:50 Speaker 2 Right.

25:51 Speaker 1 I think if you do 3 out of 10 pictures, like no one does that.

25:56 Speaker 2 And also in your days, in those days, you're talking about a analog camera-

26:01 Speaker 1 Right

26:01 Speaker 2 ... so there's no, there's no screen-

26:03 Speaker 1 No

26:03 Speaker 2 ... for feedback or-

26:04 Speaker 1 Right, and that's-

26:05 Speaker 2 There's no

26:05 Speaker 1 But that is a beautiful thing, like you're making pictures, you know, a latent image that has to be developed.

26:12 Speaker 2 Right.

26:13 Speaker 1 You're not looking and thinking, and I think that's one of the problems in the digital, making digital images. Unless you turn the, the back of your camera off, that is interrupting that uncon- beautiful unconsciousness. You're becoming conscious. Okay, and the world changes, and we adapt, but when you talk about... Like, I probably didn't know f- I, I got the film developed, and Cathy... I never knew I made that picture.

26:44 Speaker 2 Right. It's a-

26:45 Speaker 1 And so Cathy edited it, and you know, I see now that that was the one. In the book Dovid and I did, there's a little strip of those and, you know, I was here, there, and you know, sitting here today, like you, you explaining in a very, you know, articulate way of like, you know, the Rebbe's not in the center, and a lot of the energy is behind him, and he's looking forward, like that's a beau- I mean, that's a beautiful way of thinking about the picture. When I think about the picture is like I ha- I somehow... And listen, is it divine intervention that, you know, the lady down Gaxton pulled me where I needed to be? I don't know. That's not the way how I live my life. But for whatever reason I got there, I had the skill set. I saw this, you know, consciously, somewhat unconsciously. What really is, I recorded this incredible moment that this man created.

27:51 Speaker 2 Mm.

27:52 Speaker 1 You know? So whatever my skills are, that energy I had never seen. You know, so the, the, the kids under the table, the guys in the window, like there's like incredible focus, incredible love, incredible dedication to this guy. Now listen, maybe in this world of Lubavitch and people listening to the podcast, you know, many people would say over these 30 years in the secular world, it looks like a medieval, it looks like a Rembrandt painting.

28:31 Speaker 2 Mm.

28:31 Speaker 1 You know, the, if you didn't have the mic in it and-

28:34 Speaker 2 Right

28:34 Speaker 1 ... now some people may think like, "Oh my God, I can't believe this guy Marc Asnin just said that." I'm not... It has nothing to do with the religious, who these people are, but it has to do with the composition and the commitment of those people in that painting or in that frame that I recorded.

28:56 Speaker 2 That's certainly the energy of the, of the picture. This is, the energy of the picture, like if you would crop the Rebbe out and just focus on him in that picture, uh, it would be just another picture of the Rebbe.

29:08 Speaker 1 Right.

29:08 Speaker 2 Which, I mean, some would say every picture's remarkable, but, but in the-

29:12 Speaker 1 But that's not true

29:12 Speaker 2 ... right. But in the-

29:13 Speaker 1 It's not

29:13 Speaker 2 ... library of Rebbe pictures, it's, it's, it doesn't stand out from any other picture.

29:17 Speaker 1 Right. But listen, in the community-

29:19 Speaker 2 Right

29:20 Speaker 1 ... people, I'll give them a, you know, I give a gift to people or people say, "Don't really understand why you had the Rebbe so small. Like, why is the Rebbe so small?" Now, that's not a criticism of the community. They're not studying art.

29:34 Speaker 2 Right.

29:34 Speaker 1 They're in a different lane in life, but you're right, like-

29:38 Speaker 2 It is a criticism of the community. You, you can't say that. I, maybe the word isn't criticism-

29:42 Speaker 1 Oh, I can say whatever I want

29:43 Speaker 2 ... I'm saying, uh, uh-

29:44 Speaker 1 I don't care. No, I'm not... Listen, I think there are things in-

29:47 Speaker 2 It's a critique of the community-

29:48 Speaker 1 Right

29:49 Speaker 2 ... uh, that's-

29:49 Speaker 1 It's not their focus.

29:51 Speaker 2 No.

29:51 Speaker 1 Like I also know n- I've never read the Torah, and I've never read Maimonides, and I'm not an expert on Judaism even though I'm a Jew.

29:59 Speaker 2 Right.

29:59 Speaker 1 So it's not a criticism because that's not what they focus their life on. Now listen, one of the reasons I was attracted to-

30:08 Speaker 2 I, I just-

30:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, just go on

30:09 Speaker 2 ... I just don't, I just don't think it, I don't think it's just a matter of artistic preference. Like I think it's not like that they don't know about art, therefore-

30:16 Speaker 1 Right

30:16 Speaker 2 ... they don't understand what you're saying. Because you'll go into most of their homes, and you look at their wedding photos of their kids. Yes, they have the close-ups of their kids, but they also have the wider shots of the family.

30:28 Speaker 1 Right.

30:29 Speaker 2 And there's a tolerance for a picture that includes a family and-

30:32 Speaker 1 Right. That's a good point

30:32 Speaker 2 ... right? And tolerance for a shot that includes context, so why wouldn't that apply here? You know, uh, I, I, I don't need to schlep you-

30:40 Speaker 1 No

30:40 Speaker 2 ... I don't need to schlep you into this -

30:42 Speaker 1 No, that's good. No, that's good

30:42 Speaker 2 ... into this, into this kind of, uh, pet peeve of mine, but-

30:45 Speaker 1 But that's why we're here.

30:47 Speaker 2 Right. Right. I, I think, I think, I think that's a very interesting kind of, you know, um, anecdote about this photo where if anything to me, you know, like, like you know, like in any visual storytelling, right? This photo, the, the people around the Rebbe actually magnify the Rebbe, in my opinion.

31:09 Speaker 1 Sure, absolutely.

31:10 Speaker 2 Right? Because you have the Rebbe, and then you have the people. You have these white bearded men stooping over to listen, and that's what creates energy.

31:18 Speaker 1 Sure.

31:18 Speaker 2 That's the energy. The dynamic in the picture is that-

31:20 Speaker 1 Right

31:21 Speaker 2 ... is that relationship, right? So zooming out and seeing the Rebbe as part of the picture does not diminish the Rebbe.

31:28 Speaker 1 Right.

31:28 Speaker 2 If anything, in this picture, it magnifies.

31:30 Speaker 1 It empowers. Right.

31:31 Speaker 2 There's something to be said about a viewer. I'm not saying that everyone in the community feels this way. I think many people love the photo, but there's something to be said about that kind of train of thinking that sees that and still sees somehow a diminishment of the Rebbe. Like, if you cannot leave room in the frame of the photo for the people who are connected to the Rebbe, then, then not only are you not being nice to those people, you're in a way missing the point, and you're missing-

31:59 Speaker 1 Absolutely

31:59 Speaker 2 ... a certain kind of energy. I, it's a very interesting kind of-

32:02 Speaker 1 Right

32:02 Speaker 2 ... kind of anecdote that you brought up. I, I'm not sure that every person or the major- I don't know the statistics of how-

32:08 Speaker 1 Right

32:08 Speaker 2 ... many people would say that, but the fact that you've gotten that kind of feedback, I'm also not surprised that you got that kind of feedback.

32:15 Speaker 1 Right.

32:15 Speaker 2 But, you know, I think, I think it's very interesting.

32:17 Speaker 1 But I'm not crit- Like, I mean, I'm, like, I don't think... You know, listen, like I know people in the secular world who know nothing visually either, so it's not-

32:29 Speaker 2 I didn't, I didn't take it as that kind of critique.

32:31 Speaker 1 Right.

32:31 Speaker 2 And that's my point.

32:32 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

32:32 Speaker 2 I don't think it's about a lack of visual-

32:34 Speaker 1 Right

32:34 Speaker 2 ... of visual awareness. I think there's a certain kind of feeling of like, if you have a camera and you're pointing it at the Rebbe, then why would you-

32:41 Speaker 1 Right

32:41 Speaker 2 ... why would you include anything else?

32:43 Speaker 1 And that's, and that's what they visually saw for decades.

32:47 Speaker 2 Right.

32:47 Speaker 1 You know, they, most of the pictures were these kind of head shots and-

32:52 Speaker 2 Right

32:52 Speaker 1 ... and listen, like once someone told me, oh, like the cover of the Rebbe wasn't a good picture 'cause his eyes weren't the right color.

32:59 Speaker 2 Right.

33:00 Speaker 1 Okay? And that's a very literal and, you know, like you just take it in. But I mean, the way we got here today and the book The Oracle is that I think Dovid is someone, you know, when I met him at chabad.org, like he understands a lot about photography. So he understood a lot about like this project I did about my Uncle Charlie. He, he really understood composition. He understood it on another level. I would say like he understood it from the world that I was coming from, and that was like an early attraction to Dovid, and obviously like that grew in many different ways. Um-

33:44 Speaker 2 What were, what were you most-- If I could, if I could-

33:46 Speaker 1 Sure

33:47 Speaker 2 ... if I could, if I could posit it as an either/or. It might not be an either/or.

33:51 Speaker 1 Okay.

33:51 Speaker 2 But 'cause we're talking about this, this idea of pictures that, that, that this, th- specifically this picture that, that plays on the dynamic between the Rebbe and the people around him. Was that a theme? Was that something that visually you were picking up?

34:06 Speaker 1 No.

34:06 Speaker 2 Were, were you more focused on the Rebbe, like isolated?

34:09 Speaker 1 No, no. I understood going there that it was about his, you know, I understood that I needed to get him and his community. You know, I-

34:17 Speaker 2 So it was him in his community.

34:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean-

34:20 Speaker 2 You weren't trying to isolate him out of the-

34:22 Speaker 1 No. I mean, I, you know, eventually the cover had to be done in a different way, and-

34:27 Speaker 2 Right

34:27 Speaker 1 ... there's just different dynamics for the cover. And Kathy said like, "I need a vertical, and I need something tighter." In all these images, you know, in the book, I was working with a 28 millimeter lens. For the cover, there's just a different dynamic though, you know?

34:42 Speaker 2 So just, just to explain to the audience.

34:44 Speaker 1 Sure.

34:44 Speaker 2 A 28 millimeter lens is a very wide lens.

34:46 Speaker 1 Right. But I'm also-- So people would think, oh, that's for a large group shot. But when I'm like photographing the Rebbe at the Torah, and there's just two people there-

34:55 Speaker 2 Right

34:55 Speaker 1 ... you have much more depth of field. You feel-

34:58 Speaker 2 Right

34:59 Speaker 1 ... much more connected. The picture's not compressed.

35:01 Speaker 2 Right.

35:03 Speaker 1 So in all my work, you know, in all my bodies of work, that's how I'm working. Um-

35:09 Speaker 2 Is, isn't that interesting? I, I know it's a little bit wonky, but like, or, or techy, but isn't it interesting how the same lens is used for the wide shots but also the very intimate-

35:19 Speaker 1 Right

35:19 Speaker 2 ... close-ups?

35:19 Speaker 1 I mean, that's definitely a certain time or certain doc- this certain tradition in documentary photography to work that way.

35:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

35:30 Speaker 1 Um, and that's a tradition that, you know, I can, you know, worked in and continued. Also, none of these pictures are cropped.

35:39 Speaker 2 None of them?

35:40 Speaker 1 No. So I come from a school of thought that you, when you're looking through the viewfinder, you're working on the concept of the full frame, and that's where you're making the picture. So someone could say did none of the, these pic-- The cover is slightly cropped because of the dimensions, but there's no pictures in this book that are cropped.

36:03 Speaker 2 Is that like an ethical thing of like-

36:05 Speaker 1 Not ethical

36:06 Speaker 2 ... or just an artistic-

36:07 Speaker 1 It's just, yeah, it's like an artistic, you know, belief that-

36:10 Speaker 2 Mm

36:10 Speaker 1 ... you're framing. So when you were working with a film camera, or today they call it an analog camera, higher, the more expensive cameras, when you look through your viewfinder, you were getting 99% of what you saw. So yeah, it's like a, it's a tradition. It's a, you know, um, kind of a technique. It's like, it's, it's a, it's a I don't know. I'm not such a f- you know, photographic guy talking about photography. But it's about creating it in the camera and s- you know, and if you can't create it in the camera, then that's not a good picture. There's plenty of other photographers who would say that's pretty rigid.

36:57 Speaker 2 Right.

36:57 Speaker 1 And, uh, you can do that. But I went to art school, and that's something I embraced.

37:03 Speaker 2 Mm.

37:04 Speaker 1 And that's in all my work, you know. Whatever projects, if I didn't do it there Then I think it's... Now, it's, it's a failure for me as a... Like, I don't, I'm not an artist. Like, I'm a storyteller.

37:19 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

37:19 Speaker 1 I'm a photographer. I don't think of myself as an artist, but, um-

37:24 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that? I mean, I think I can relate, but I wanna make sure I understand what you mean.

37:30 Speaker 1 There's a, a famous photographer, Helmut Newton, had once said, "They invented the word photographer for a reason." So I think everything about me from as a kid, you know, like if you knew me, I'm a pretty good v- uh, storyteller. I have this good Brooklyn accent, I can weave some good stories.

37:51 Speaker 2 Same with your words.

37:52 Speaker 1 Right. So I think I was shaped as a kid in a com- in a community in South Brooklyn where people were very good storytellers.

38:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

38:03 Speaker 1 And that came from sort of like a, the streets where people were wise guys.

38:08 Speaker 2 Right.

38:11 Speaker 1 I didn't... By, by the time I knew my grandfather, who was a wise guy, he was already sick and had a stroke, so it wasn't I learnt it from him. For multiple reasons, I'm a good verbal storyteller. I am.

38:24 Speaker 2 Right.

38:24 Speaker 1 Like, I know that about myself at 61, and I think I was able to mesh that with my photography.

38:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:35 Speaker 1 When I was a kid, I had some learning disabilities. Like, today we know that. I mean, my parents did everything to help me, and my parents and my grandmother gave me everything and more to be who I am today. But I didn't write well, and I think a way for me to compensate, like in all my personal projects like Uncle Charlie or I'm working on a book about went to horse racing and people were sort of degenerate gamblers, I use the words of my subject. So in another project that I was working on about Chabad, about the shluchim all over the world, and 'cause the Rebbe, he didn't s- I, from what I've read, is he didn't talk about the diaspora in a negative way. He went and embraced it in sending the shluchim. So when I did this other project for a bunch of years, I'm not interested in telling you what I think about shluchim in, uh, Siberia or shluchim in Cuba. I wanna hear about the Jews that the shluchim touched, so I would record those people.

39:44 Speaker 2 Hmm.

39:44 Speaker 1 So in that sense, like, that's how I tell a story. Their words, my pictures. Like, who am I to tell you what it's like to be a Jew living in Cuba?

39:55 Speaker 2 Interesting. So that, that comes back to your philosophy that a camera has... You, you use a camera to capture something that you see, but in many ways, like, you want it to be, you want it to be observant as opposed to manipulative, where later you start playing with... Right?

40:14 Speaker 1 Right.

40:14 Speaker 2 Is that, is that what you're saying?

40:15 Speaker 1 So I think for me, it's just like, you know, if you don't live it, I shouldn't discuss it. You know what I mean?

40:23 Speaker 2 Right.

40:23 Speaker 1 So, like, in the sense of my Uncle Charlie, 31 years I photographed my mother's brother, who is mentally ill, never got out of that life that my grandfather, you know, exposed him to. And, you know, I photographed him, his children. So that's the same thing, the Rebbe, my uncle and his children, my uncle and the women who were addicted to drugs. You know, it's the same thing watching that interaction, you know?

40:54 Speaker 2 Right.

40:54 Speaker 1 That intersection. I was brought up with a lot of love, and I was nurtured on a very deep level. I didn't grow up wealthy, and I knew how hard my parents worked, and Uncle Charlie and his children, you know. So when Uncle Charlie tells his story, it's from a very, very dark place, and who am I to tell that story? I didn't live that darkness.

41:20 Speaker 2 So, so that actually, that actually, um, leads to, for me to an interesting question because, you know, you just made a, you made a comparison which for some Lubavitcher listening, I'm sure-

41:32 Speaker 1 Sure

41:32 Speaker 2 ... was a bit like, "Wait, wait a second. Your druggie uncle and his family is the same as Rebbe and his chassidim?" The way I understood it was that to you, the focus is always the relationship between individuals. That's where the magic happens, right? 'Cause with a photograph, in many ways you are taking a static picture, which is the antithesis of life.

41:54 Speaker 1 Right.

41:54 Speaker 2 Life doesn't freeze. So how do you make the picture come to life? It's with that dynamic between, between the, you know, what... It could be just a portrait, but the person's eyes is connecting to you or to the camera in a certain way, or it could be the interplay between people. That's how I understood it.

42:11 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, the picture we've been talking about for the last few minutes is it's that intersection, that interplay of the Rebbe speaking and this incredible, intense response, this love. Like, that's for people to then determine from the picture, but it's that interaction.

42:35 Speaker 2 So, so but I-

42:35 Speaker 1 So the interaction of my uncle, which-

42:38 Speaker 2 Right

42:38 Speaker 1 ... is with, like, his children or women addicted to drugs, I'm not comparing them.

42:44 Speaker 2 I understand. No, I'm not trying to compare.

42:46 Speaker 1 But it is the same process.

42:48 Speaker 2 Right.

42:48 Speaker 1 It's no different. You're obs- standing back.

42:51 Speaker 2 Right.

42:51 Speaker 1 I'm a storyteller, I'm watching. I make that moment.

42:54 Speaker 2 Right. The, the question that I have is, you know, the... You're, you're telling, you're, you're, you're there to take pictures of, for an article called "The Oracle of Crown Heights" which just the title of it is d- you know, ascribing to the Rebbe a certain ethereal quality, right? Out of this world quality.

43:13 Speaker 1 Right.

43:13 Speaker 2 Which, which- Everyone around him believed he had, right?

43:17 Speaker 1 Right.

43:17 Speaker 2 And felt that he had. And yet, in many ways, the photograph almost inevitably humanizes, right? And, and, and, and almost pulls the Rebbe back into the context of his community.

43:32 Speaker 1 Right.

43:32 Speaker 2 At least in the way you're seeing it, right?

43:33 Speaker 1 Right. I mean, listen, like-

43:34 Speaker 2 How did, how did you, how did you, how did you-

43:37 Speaker 1 I didn't-- I don't think that much, to be honest. I don't.

43:40 Speaker 2 No, but I'm saying in retrospect.

43:41 Speaker 1 In retrospect, listen, I went... I'm-- I know how to make s- let's say, 3 out of 10 pictures that are good, and that day, what the Rebbe put out there, I was able... Like I... And I'm not trying to not answer the question. I just don't... Like, that's just not how I process life, you know? Like... And the th- great thing about photography, this book, the The New York Times Magazine, or anyone creating imagery, it's, it's people like you or the guy on the bus or the subway, and it's what you're taking. Like-

44:20 Speaker 2 Right

44:21 Speaker 1 ... the 30 years you have shared with me in the last few minutes things that no one ever shared with me.

44:27 Speaker 2 Interesting.

44:28 Speaker 1 So that's like a beautiful thing. But I'm not going to make pictures ever thinking that.

44:34 Speaker 2 Interesting.

44:34 Speaker 1 Like, I'm not... There's nothing... I'm-- listen, I'm not a stupid guy-

44:38 Speaker 2 Right

44:38 Speaker 1 ... but I don't process life through an intellectual process.

44:43 Speaker 2 I-

44:43 Speaker 1 It's visual and emotional.

44:45 Speaker 2 I, no, I believe you, especially when you, when you're talking about taking the photos. In many ways, you have to put that to the side because-

44:51 Speaker 1 Now, some photographers don't, which is okay.

44:53 Speaker 2 Right.

44:53 Speaker 1 It's just a different process.

44:55 Speaker 2 Right. But many, many will put it to the side because they, they, they don't wanna get a, they don't want to get in their own way.

45:02 Speaker 1 Right.

45:03 Speaker 2 Um-

45:04 Speaker 1 But I mean, listen, that moment... You know, listen, I think, I don't know this, but when you look back, Kathy Ryan, and based on the work she saw of me and my... Not my portfolio. People like Kathy Ryan are hiring you based on your personal work.

45:20 Speaker 2 Right.

45:21 Speaker 1 Like, I never did any really religious stories, so someone could say like, "Why did she send Mark Azman?" Okay, she said I knew a lot about Hasidim. Okay, we know, like, whatever I was able to articulate in that social setting enough. But I photographed very intensely my uncle-

45:42 Speaker 2 Right

45:43 Speaker 1 ... and what was around him in that social setting.

45:47 Speaker 2 So you-

45:47 Speaker 1 That dysfunction

45:48 Speaker 2 ... you return to that project often. I- so you see that project as like a, a foundational project in how you approach photography?

45:57 Speaker 1 That is the most, the most important thing I ever did in my life is photograph my... Nah, the most important thing I ever did in life is have my family, my wife, and my children. But up to then-

46:09 Speaker 2 Right

46:09 Speaker 1 ... there was nothing more important than photographing Uncle Charlie. The reason I got the Rebbe story is because of Uncle Charlie.

46:17 Speaker 2 Hmm.

46:17 Speaker 1 There's no doubt about that. When we dig deeper, is it because I was so able to focus on this one human being? We know it was a very different story.

46:30 Speaker 2 Hmm.

46:30 Speaker 1 But what is the same is Uncle Charlie had a very interesting or visual dynamic with the people in his life, his community-

46:40 Speaker 2 Hmm

46:41 Speaker 1 ... his children, his environment in Bushwick, Brooklyn, the women in his life who were addicted to drugs but were also codependent on him. That's human interaction.

46:56 Speaker 2 Right.

46:58 Speaker 1 When I went to photograph the Rebbe, it's a very positive thing.

47:02 Speaker 2 Right.

47:02 Speaker 1 So we're not comparing what's going on, but it's the same process. I'm observing-

47:08 Speaker 2 Right

47:08 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe in his community, the Rebbe and his passion, how the Rebbe dealt with things.

47:15 Speaker 2 Right.

47:16 Speaker 1 You know? And when the Rebbe's reading from the Torah, all I'm thinking about is making compositionally important images, or what I would hope to be important, successful images. I'm not thinking on any level.

47:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

47:31 Speaker 1 I think there's other photographers who, because we're all very different people, who would go in and think, "Oh, that's blah, blah, blah, and that's reason..." Listen, the closer I could get to the Rebbe, I s- I'm using all the sides of the frame, you know? And what I think is important about this book is Dovid went back, I gave Dovid the archive. And let's say there's 100 rolls-

48:00 Speaker 2 Hmm

48:00 Speaker 1 ... just for argument's sake. Dovid found pictures in there that are important historically. I'm not a historian.

48:07 Speaker 2 Right.

48:07 Speaker 1 I'm not an archivist.

48:08 Speaker 2 Right.

48:09 Speaker 1 I'm there just... I wanted 20 best pictures. But when we look at this book today, it's important historically. I saw when we were on pr- I was on press in Italy watching the book be printed for quality reasons, and I'm like, "Wow, that's a good picture." Dovid found it. I never saw that picture.

48:32 Speaker 2 Hmm.

48:33 Speaker 1 You know what I mean? So, and listen, as a creative person, you can look back and say, "Oh, I could have done this." I don't have any regrets.

48:44 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

48:44 Speaker 1 Like, that's where I was as a photographer in 1992, and if the Rebbe was here in 2024, I would be making different pictures. Maybe in the same tradition, but you're constantly wanting to grow. You know, I don't-- I would probably not making the same pictures that I did in '92. But my vision and who I am definitely was formed in the 31 years of Uncle Charlie. Now, the Oracle of Crown Heights is the most important magazine assignment I ever did.

49:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

49:24 Speaker 1 And it's the most important assignment I ever did where it changed my life. Now, Uncle Charlie changed my life in a very different way.

49:31 Speaker 2 Hmm.

49:32 Speaker 1 But, um, you know, or, you know, many, many years later, I'm sent to photograph Muammar Gaddafi, you know, at the UN, and I'm gonna have a one-on-one portrait session, and the gentleman who was the head of Time Magazine said, "Yeah, I want one of those really close-up pictures like you do of Uncle Charlie." And when I went to photograph Gaddafi, first his handlers were like, "You cannot get that close," and I said, "Yeah, but I don't make pictures from this distance." And they let me get very close to his face. So this is all... The, the, you know, when someone would say, "Oh my God, like, who do they have on this podcast? He's mentioning Muammar Gaddafi." But we're talking about the process of how I make pictures.

50:19 Speaker 2 Right.

50:20 Speaker 1 I would never use a long lens.

50:23 Speaker 2 You know, I, I, I, I could see... I mean, I, I think I mentioned them already, the people that would be, that would be a bit, uh, uh, irritated by these kind of comparisons, and I under- in a way I understand where they're coming from. But I feel like, you know, to, to see that, to, to, to see a, to see a photograph or to see the, the purpose of a photograph without acknowledging how a photograph works is... I mean, in other words, to spiritualize a photograph is not, in my view, it, it doesn't make the photograph bigger than it is. If anything it, to me it makes it smaller than it is. A photograph is a photograph. It is a, especially in your days, it wasn't even dig- it wasn't digital. It was light hitting a plate and with, with that kind of technology-

51:13 Speaker 1 Right

51:13 Speaker 2 ... creating, creating, creating on a film a, a negative that... You know, it's, it's a very physical, understandable process with a, with a machine called a camera, right? And then of course, you've been describing the technique of composition, of how to frame a photo and, and, and capture a moment in a way that, that lives for years on and gives people ideas for decades after, right? Even if you don't notice in the moment, but capturing life does capture that spark that is infinite, right?

51:44 Speaker 1 I mean, I think this picture, and sitting here in 2024, really stills, when you look at that picture, you know, like there was a lot of energy.

51:54 Speaker 2 Right.

51:54 Speaker 1 A lot of commitment and, you know, to me, there's a lot of love in that room and-

51:59 Speaker 2 But, but, but if, to ignore, ignore, to ignore the photograph aspect of it and say, "No, that's just spiritual," I feel is a, I don't feel makes the picture bigger. I think it makes the picture smaller.

52:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm not just saying it's spiritual. I, I think I was able to record that image with my photographic ability, my sense of composition. I was there at the right moment. I took four or five pictures. Kathy saw that picture. It became the iconic picture of... But it, what's beautiful about like a latent image 30 years later, m- the Rebbe's not here physically, and I think if you look at it, you think, "Wow," like not, I'm not even talking like spir- like I'm just talking visually.

52:44 Speaker 2 Right.

52:45 Speaker 1 Like wow, man.

52:46 Speaker 2 That's a-

52:46 Speaker 1 There was a lot of energy in that room. Like, like look at, they're everywhere. They're hanging on and-

52:52 Speaker 2 Right

52:52 Speaker 1 ... like that's pretty amazing and, you know.

52:56 Speaker 2 So what do you think it is about a photograph that's able to, to, to last so long and contain so much energy? If it, if it is just a, a, a light hitting a plate, how, how, how do you, how do you see it? I know you don't like to intellectualize your work, but I mean-

53:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. Listen, like, and I'm not like sitting here as like the pious Jew. I'm not. Like we can get to that later if... But the image is so powerful because of w- who was in, what was in it. Like I didn't create that. I was-

53:26 Speaker 2 Okay. So you feel this image is more powerful than other pictures you've taken?

53:30 Speaker 1 Yeah.

53:31 Speaker 2 Okay.

53:32 Speaker 1 Now listen, there's powerful pictures in Uncle Charlie.

53:34 Speaker 2 Right. So what do you, so what do you think, if we can step back from this picture, what do you think it is that a photograph... What, what, how do you think a photograph does that in general?

53:45 Speaker 1 I think it's, there's the e- there's, as a photographer, you're looking for the moment. Well, first there's the subject, there's the moment, there's composition, and then there's the quality of light. That's sort of how I see what the four elements that make up a picture.

54:04 Speaker 2 Right.

54:05 Speaker 1 So here, the subject, that moment was an incredible moment, and from what I know, that moment didn't really happen that often.

54:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

54:15 Speaker 1 Okay. That's different than at Lubavitch. Like-

54:18 Speaker 2 Right

54:18 Speaker 1 ... now at a Lubavitch, let's say if I was there, I wouldn't have sat up in the corner of the-

54:25 Speaker 2 Right

54:25 Speaker 1 ... the, the balcony. Like I would've told Rabbi Prinzky like, "Yeah, this is not what we're doing here." But that moment and the moving of the synagogue and that, that's the most important. S- now someone could have made the same picture-

54:43 Speaker 2 Mm

54:43 Speaker 1 ... as not as powerful.

54:46 Speaker 2 Mm.

54:46 Speaker 1 Then I made what I would think is an iconic image because I unconsciously comp- composed it and, you know, I took four or five frames. There's a certain light, you know, there was this fluorescent light and however that light hit the film and was recorded, it looks like a Rembrandt painting, the tonal range, the paneling on the walls.

55:13 Speaker 2 Right.

55:13 Speaker 1 Like all those elements are coming together. But if I had the best technique in the world and there was no energy in the picture-

55:24 Speaker 2 Mm

55:24 Speaker 1 ... that's not a, you know, that's not an iconic picture. Now, I have pictures in Uncle Charlie that are pretty powerful images compositionally, the interaction of him and people in his life that are very, very powerful. They're pretty heavy.

55:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

55:44 Speaker 1 They're not really full of happiness. That, that doesn't mean they're not important pictures, not... Especially when you're a social documentarian, you're not looking just for the, the, the, the positive.

56:00 Speaker 2 Right.

56:00 Speaker 1 Like historically, we're looking at people or we're told to not see, to look away from. And I think the importance of the Rebbe story is there's... I mean, you know, and there's plenty of people that, there's s- the lots of Jews that know very little about Lubavitch or whatever you want to say, Chabad. Like, that's just a fact. We know that in 2024.

56:27 Speaker 2 Right.

56:28 Speaker 1 And I think I'm happy that, you know, I was part of a process as a storyteller, whatever you wanna call me, like storyteller, documentary photography, documentarian. That was part of a process. I became a photographer to help tell stories to inform the world. There are people, I hope, after they read that story or saw my pictures, has said, "Wow, like that's kind of interesting. I didn't know that about them," or, you know, "I- I'm surprised." And, you know, that's why we tell stories. And listen, I've been working on a new project or I just did a book about the death penalty of the final words of men and women who were executed by the state of Texas in the death chamber, and those are people I think society wants to turn its back on. They don't wanna deal with it. They don't wanna see it. They don't wanna deal with the complexity of that issue. So I would say those are pic- you know, a story about, you know, people that are forgotten. We don't wanna confront that. I don't know, The Oracle of Crown Heights, there are people who, in the Jewish world, who don't wanna confront some questions about Chabad.

57:48 Speaker 2 Right.

57:48 Speaker 1 You know, there are people still today that say things that I'm shocked about-

57:52 Speaker 2 Right

57:53 Speaker 1 ... Chabad and, you know, I think, I hope this book and the 40 stories help to share with the world that those 40 people all had a very different, either direct or indirect relationship to the Rebbe, and that's important for the world to know. Now, there are people who are gonna read the book maybe and say, "Oh, I don't agree with that," but that's what the book's about. And from what I know, the Rebbe met with everyone. He met with Reform Jews, and he r- he was open to listening. Like, he wasn't a dogmatic-

58:33 Speaker 2 Right

58:33 Speaker 1 ... he wasn't dogmatic, and that is an attraction to why, 30 years later, I made pictures about Shluchim over the world. Or I'm happy today, you know, if a daughter of mine told her boyfriend, "Oh, my rabbi," and then she s- he said, "Oh, I thought you weren't religious. I'm surprised you have a rabbi." And she said, "Yeah, we're not religious, but like, yeah, Dovid's our rabbi." You know, like, or, you know, for many years they would say Levi Baumgarten, you know, Rabbi Levi. You know, like, that's the legacy of the Rebbe for me, you know, like personally. And I think if you don't... I think my point is it's like, for some people, for whatever reason, you know, in, in the Jewi- in their Jewish life, they wound up in a certain place, and the Rebbe never looked at those people and said, "Yeah, I'm gonna forget those. Those are unseen."

59:38 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:39 Speaker 1 You know, and those are... You know, like you read, that I wasn't thinking about in 1992.

59:45 Speaker 2 Mm.

59:46 Speaker 1 But I always do stories about sort of p- projects of people who were, like marginalized, and, you know, like maybe Chabad. It's like, you know, the Satmar don't like the Rebbe for decades, and Reform Jews have a million issues with the Rebbe. In many ways, like you can say, well, Chabad's like somewhat a marginalized community.

1:00:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:00:13 Speaker 1 And, you know, to me, like when I wake up in the morning, for most of my life, I need to tell people stories. And without the Rebbe, I wouldn't have known about Jews and-

1:00:26 Speaker 2 I see what you're saying. I, I'm seeing now more the connection that you're making between Uncle Charlie and, and, and, and, and the Rebbe, which is, which is, which is a very almost, uh, s- ironic connection.

1:00:37 Speaker 1 Right.

1:00:37 Speaker 2 But I'm seeing what you're saying. I mean, what you're talking about now is the, almost the compassion or the sympathy, compassion that one has for their subject.

1:00:47 Speaker 1 Right.

1:00:47 Speaker 2 Right? And, and the, the sense that-

1:00:49 Speaker 1 Or the need to tell their story.

1:00:50 Speaker 2 Right. Right, and, and, and the need to really, uh, I don't know the words, care about their story, but to, but to, but to pay respect to their story.

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Well, I feel I have a responsibility-

1:01:00 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:00 Speaker 1 ... to tell the story of this man who created-

1:01:03 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:03 Speaker 1 ... this, he created a movement.

1:01:06 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:06 Speaker 1 And I hope that the book, I think the story-

1:01:11 Speaker 2 Right

1:01:11 Speaker 1 ... 30 years ago helped tell that story. I'm hoping that people then realize, oh, these guys in black hats, you don't need to be afraid of them. Listen, I remember in 19-, probably '74, going to the city from Brooklyn, and some guys walked up in the street and said, "Oh, you're Jewish," and we told them to F off, get away from us. Right. That was like, th- that was, like wild. We were like, "Why are they putting the spotlight on us?" That was a new thing. Now, you know, 50 years later, like that's a nor- that's normal for Jews around the world. And, you know, the Rebbe... So I'm a little... I told a little piece, so this book just helps perpetuate. I'm not working for Lubavitch.

1:02:02 Speaker 2 I understand. But I, I do wanna focus-

1:02:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:03 Speaker 2 ... a little bit on the, on this, on the sympathy or, or compa-

1:02:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:06 Speaker 2 ... I mean, the word sympathy is maybe- Too much compassion or responsibility towards a subject.

1:02:12 Speaker 1 Right. So I-

1:02:13 Speaker 2 Because I, I think-

1:02:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:02:13 Speaker 2 ... I think a lot of the people listening, you know, if you, if you grow up, if you grow up in Lubavitch, right? Uh, you almost take the story for granted, and you take, um, the Rebbe's grandeur for granted. Um, you know, it's just, it's just a ma- it's just a, it's just a, it's just a fact. But in many ways, and this goes back a little bit to what you were talking earlier, talking about earlier where, you know, cropping, like the, the framing of the Rebbe and zoom- zooming in on the Rebbe or, or, or leaving room for the others. Um, you know, the, I, I think it, I, I think there's much to ga... When, when I asked earlier what makes a picture work, like what makes a picture last and, and, and have value that, that's lasting, I think in many ways the answer could be the, the compassion or the, the r- the sense of responsibility that the photographer has with his camera. Now, of course, things maybe could just happen by mistake. You're holding the camera, but for, for... It's n- you know, that, that's what it looks like sometimes, but it's really a, there's a lot of intention, even if it's subconscious and a years of training. There's intention there. There's an eye there that, that captured it and framed it a certain way.

1:03:25 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:25 Speaker 2 I-

1:03:25 Speaker 1 But just remember, I've done stories, we don't need to go 'cause, into the other stories, but I've done s- very intense stories of people that on a moral level I find despicable. Okay?

1:03:37 Speaker 2 But you're still telling their story.

1:03:39 Speaker 1 Right. Because, like, I believe first when you, you're an American and you look at our Constitution and the Bill of Rights, it's called the First Amendment-

1:03:48 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:48 Speaker 1 ... freedom of speech.

1:03:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:50 Speaker 1 And that's, there's a reason it's the first one-

1:03:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:03:53 Speaker 1 ... not the 10th.

1:03:54 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:55 Speaker 1 And for multiple reasons, I think part of shaped is my childhood, where my mother came from, and my father was a photographer, so he was a commercial photographer, so I was shaped by him. But my mother grew up incredibly poor. My mother was 12 years old and being arrested for running numbers for my grandfather. She was a little Jewish girl running numbers for W-W- Italian wise guys in Black Bed-Stuy. And my mother was the bigger personality, but it was nurtured by my father and my grandmother, who was the mother, you know, the wife of my grandfather. I was instilled that you never forget about the, the guy who's down.

1:04:46 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:04:47 Speaker 1 Now, today we use the word marginalized.

1:04:50 Speaker 2 Right.

1:04:50 Speaker 1 Like, my mother told me at eight years old in Brooklyn, in Sheepshead Bay, which was the most Jewish congressional district in America, and I didn't grow up with any antisemitism. My father grew up there earlier. There was. My mother told me on the corner of 19th Street and Neck Road that when, when the comes down to it, you never stick with the white guy. You stick with the Black guy because you're not historically white.

1:05:23 Speaker 2 Huh.

1:05:23 Speaker 1 Now, there may be people like blah, blah, blah, she was a radical socialist. She wasn't. What my mother was telling me is you never forget about in that moment in history, and my mother's experience growing up as a Jewish girl in a Black community, she saw repression.

1:05:45 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 She shared that with me, and that even though I have the privilege of white skin and Aznan-

1:05:53 Speaker 2 Right

1:05:53 Speaker 1 ... is not a typical Jewish name, and I can prove that. For three years, I lived with Nazi skinheads in the Klan all over America, and because of my mannerisms and my accent, I could pass for Italian.

1:06:07 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:06:08 Speaker 1 Okay. So that shaping as a kid, I also think post-Holocaust, in my house, my mother, again, with the sort of my father and grandmother, was telling me that the repression of other people is not acceptable. All those things merged. 12 years old, I'm learning photography in junior high school. My dad's a commercial photographer.

1:06:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:36 Speaker 1 They're nourishing that in me. I go to art school. I'm nourished. Those elements came together. So my grandfather was, in the 1920s, Jews became... went to the street because they couldn't get normal jobs.

1:06:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:06:59 Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not telling you anything new. But my mother didn't discuss the, her history until I came out in the Uncle Charlie story. So I'm always trying to tell stories about people to educate people. With Chabad, I, there are things that I don't agree with.

1:07:28 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:28 Speaker 1 Like, I didn't agree with the Rebbe's stance on prayer in school or a silent moment. I don't. Doesn't mean I didn't think the Rebbe was a great man, and-

1:07:38 Speaker 2 Right

1:07:38 Speaker 1 ... I'm not really... You know, I believe in a woman's right to choose. I'm not, I don't think men or any religion should be part of that.

1:07:49 Speaker 2 Right.

1:07:49 Speaker 1 But my attraction to the Rebbe, and I think, is that the Rebbe wouldn't have turned on me and said, "You're a self-hating Jew."

1:07:58 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:07:59 Speaker 1 Like that, you know, no one... You know, in Chabad, if the rabbi or the rebbetzin doesn't agree with you, they don't tell you you're horrible. They say, "Let me just give you a different perspective, Mark, and think about this."

1:08:11 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:13 Speaker 1 I think that's why I tell stories, and I think the oral of Crown Heights, you know, when the New York Times picked, when the magazine turned 100 years old, they picked 20 covers, and the Rebbe was the only religious leader, it was one of the covers picked. Now, that's a great honor, and I have an ego, and I'm very proud of that. But what that really says to me is that a lot of people were moved by that, and maybe those people then go and seek out more information about the Rebbe.

1:08:49 Speaker 2 That's fascinating. I, I think it's worth, I think it's worth pointing out. I th- I think, I think here y- you... What you take for granted, I think a lot of listeners don't, and what they take for granted-

1:09:00 Speaker 1 Right

1:09:00 Speaker 2 ... you don't, so that's why I'm pointing it out.

1:09:02 Speaker 1 No, that's an incredible point.

1:09:03 Speaker 2 Where, where I think, I think, you know, for you, you're talking about approaching the Rebbe with a sense- with sensitivity. Like, who is this man? What is his message?

1:09:14 Speaker 1 And a responsibility to-

1:09:15 Speaker 2 Right

1:09:15 Speaker 1 ... help share that story.

1:09:16 Speaker 2 Right. He, he may, he may, he may need me or m- he, like, I'm helping him tell his story to the world.

1:09:23 Speaker 1 But I, but I, I wanna be clear. Like, I'm not helping him. Ultimately, I think the story helped spread the Rebbe's message and spread why Chabad was there. I'm not th- I'm there as a-

1:09:36 Speaker 2 I understand. I-

1:09:36 Speaker 1 Right

1:09:37 Speaker 2 ... I understand, but the-

1:09:37 Speaker 1 But I think that's important-

1:09:39 Speaker 2 Okay, uh-

1:09:39 Speaker 1 ... to differentiate

1:09:40 Speaker 2 ... I mean, what I'm understanding from you in general is that, you know, when you, uh, when you approach a subject with a, you feel a sense of responsibility-

1:09:46 Speaker 1 I did

1:09:47 Speaker 2 ... to take-

1:09:47 Speaker 1 No

1:09:48 Speaker 2 ... to, to tell their story.

1:09:49 Speaker 1 Right.

1:09:49 Speaker 2 And, and, you know, whe- whe-

1:09:51 Speaker 1 And it's good or bad

1:09:51 Speaker 2 ... right, whether it's very marginalized people or even in some cases dictators, whether it's your, your, your, your addicted uncle.

1:09:59 Speaker 1 Right.

1:09:59 Speaker 2 Right? And, and, you know, y- y- you're approaching it with a sense of care and a s- and sensitivity that this, that, that this story ought to be treated with respect.

1:10:09 Speaker 1 And-

1:10:09 Speaker 2 Correct?

1:10:09 Speaker 1 ... part of that is when your subject gives you that, that intimacy.

1:10:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:14 Speaker 1 So-

1:10:14 Speaker 2 Right

1:10:14 Speaker 1 ... the Rebbe, and we know now, or I know, who knows why, but he gave me a s- an incredible intimacy that I would say a lot of subjects would not give you.

1:10:30 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 A lot of famous people would not give you.

1:10:33 Speaker 2 He reacted to you? Like, he, he... Hmm.

1:10:35 Speaker 1 No. I mean, he never... Like, I got brochas from the Rebbe on Sunday, you know, with Rabbi Prinz. You know, he told me, I was introduced, I was from the New York Times. And he said, like, you know, talked about Mashiach and also that, um, you know, if I, if the New York Times was responsible, they would have circulation would go up, something. There's a video of that.

1:11:02 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:03 Speaker 1 Uh, but no, like I-

1:11:05 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:11:05 Speaker 1 ... you know, the Rebbe never, like, looked at the camera.

1:11:08 Speaker 2 So you mean that he allowed you, he didn't tell you to leave. That's what you mean.

1:11:11 Speaker 1 Or the people around him.

1:11:13 Speaker 2 Right. I understand.

1:11:15 Speaker 1 And listen, that's like, I know what you said is a very important thing. For you, you were born into it.

1:11:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:23 Speaker 1 It's the norm. Okay. That's as a Jew. I was born into being Jewish and proud.

1:11:30 Speaker 2 Right.

1:11:31 Speaker 1 Never not, you know, we were proud Jews, but we were told-

1:11:34 Speaker 2 Right

1:11:35 Speaker 1 ... we sucked. Okay. The Rebbe, the responsibility a- and what's incredible is the Rebbe, for whatever reason, and the people around him, and from what I've been told, if the Rebbe didn't want it, it wouldn't have happened.

1:11:51 Speaker 2 I understand.

1:11:52 Speaker 1 Okay. So he was able to, you know, all of a sudden let someone be that close and making those pictures, and to me, he understood the importance not of me, but he understood the importance of telling the story, and he, I think he understood as someone, you know, you know, wise and special and whatever, and also educated in the secular world, the importance of the New York Times Magazine.

1:12:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 And he let me in for... Now listen, um, the magazine wanted me to go to the Rebbe's cemetery, uh, to the cemetery when he would pray of the, the Alter Rebbe, I think.

1:15:15 Speaker 2 so much to people decades later is because you didn't just take the Rebbe for granted. You didn't just say, "Okay, he's a great man." Like you said earlier, "Let me set up a, a, a camera, you know, 100 meters away with a tripod and, you know, long lens, and just kind of shoot the moment." No, I, I need to go and, and, and I need to get my, get my elbows dirty. I need to, yeah, I, I need to really fi- I need to really, um, engross myself and involve myself in this moment.

1:15:44 Speaker 3 Right. But also, like, being around the Rebbe for the time I was-

1:15:49 Speaker 2 Right

1:15:49 Speaker 3 ... there's no, if you're any, if you have any self-respect to what you do as a storyteller-

1:15:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

1:15:56 Speaker 3 ... there's no way not to be enveloped into what that was.

1:16:02 Speaker 2 Interesting.

1:16:03 Speaker 3 Like the-

1:16:03 Speaker 2 What do you mean by that?

1:16:04 Speaker 3 I mean, the energy, like, it's everywhere.

1:16:06 Speaker 2 The Rebbe's energy or the energy around him?

1:16:09 Speaker 3 They're both the same.

1:16:10 Speaker 2 Both the same.

1:16:11 Speaker 3 And when you say, like, you know, for someone in Lubavitch that, oh, the Rebbe doesn't need them, I would say that the Rebbe understood that he needed them because they were part of a movement that he was part of but brought it to a whole nother level. So-

1:16:28 Speaker 2 No, what I meant was-

1:16:29 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:16:29 Speaker 2 ... is not that he doesn't need them, but not, but not only does he need them to follow orders and to be res- and to res- be respectful, but also to be sensitive. That's what I was-

1:16:39 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:16:39 Speaker 2 ... the atten- the attentiveness that you were describing-

1:16:41 Speaker 3 Right, I think he under-

1:16:42 Speaker 2 Many-

1:16:43 Speaker 3 He, he knew that

1:16:43 Speaker 2 ... Right. He, I, I, I would think that, that he does need that, because if you don't pay attention to him or pay attention to his mo- the moment around him, then that moment is diminished.

1:16:55 Speaker 3 Right.

1:16:55 Speaker 2 Right?

1:16:55 Speaker 3 But also they were listening intellectually but emotionally.

1:16:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:16:59 Speaker 3 They were in love with him.

1:17:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:01 Speaker 3 They were in love with his meaning, and you saw that, and that's a special thing.

1:17:05 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:05 Speaker 3 And for y- now let's not talk photographically. To you, that's normal, right?

1:17:10 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:11 Speaker 3 When I was a kid, and I say in the book is I went to Hebrew school, and they were Orthodox, and believe me, Reform was like being religious compared to us.

1:17:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:17:21 Speaker 3 In third grade, I went to Hebrew school after school, and there were girls in the class.

1:17:26 Speaker 2 Right.

1:17:27 Speaker 3 And there was a girl, it was the first time I ever kissed a girl in the park, and she was in the class, and I was talking to her or, like, you know, probably not knowing I was flirting with her, and what happened was the rabbi, who had a big black hat, smashed me in the head with an eraser. And I went home, and this is a Jewish family in Brooklyn on Neck Road, and my father had just come home from his photo studio and, like an interesting, good dad said, "How was Hebrew school?" And I said, "It wasn't so good. The rabbi smashed me in the head 'cause I was talking to a girl." And he told my mother, "Dinner will have to wait." He marched me back to the Hebrew school. My father wasn't a criminal. He wasn't a thug. He didn't go to bars. He didn't cheat on my mother. And he went and told the head rabbi in the room, "This is what happened today, and I'm only here to tell you once. If it ever, the rabbi ever hits my kid again, I'm gonna kill the rabbi." And the rabbi was like, like, who I can't even describe, and telling my father, "How dare you?" And you know. And in the tone, it's a very condescending, not, "I'm sorry."

1:18:47 Speaker 2 Right.

1:18:47 Speaker 3 "That shouldn't happen." It was just like, "You, how dare you?" And my father said, "One time." Never. And now they switched me to a different Hebrew school, and at one point, learning my Haftarah, I lost the book, you know. And the rabbi, now, he wasn't a rabbi. He was, like, a Hebrew school teacher, but he was Orthodox. And he came to the house, and I was really not well-behaved in Hebrew school, to say the least. I wasn't. The more the, he bullied me, the more I re- reacted.

1:19:19 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:19:19 Speaker 3 I knew it was wrong as a kid. And then he went and brought the Haftarah book, and at the door he said to my father that I was out of control, I was the worst kid in Hebrew school, and my father should beat me.

1:19:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:19:35 Speaker 3 And my father said, "Yeah, I don't beat my child." You'd think the rabbi would come and say, "Why is Mark so angry? Why is Mark-"

1:19:44 Speaker 2 Right

1:19:44 Speaker 3 ... "so acting out?"

1:19:46 Speaker 2 Right.

1:19:46 Speaker 3 "Let's give Mark..." Now, I was loved, but I grew up in a house with a lot of economic stress, a lot of intensity. Lived in a community that was very tough and intense. So meeting the Rebbe and sitting here with you all these years later, it's wild. I have a yarmulke. I wear tzitzit. I put tefillin on. I'm not from, but if people ask me... At a party recently, the guy said, "Oh, you wear a yarmulke now?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, you're Orthodox?" And I said, "No, no, I'm Chabad." Okay. So for me, for you, this is all normal, to be loved, and I'm not saying there are things in your community that are pr- nothing's perfect, but that unconditional love for every Jew, s- when I look at that picture, that's what he was spreading.

1:20:41 Speaker 2 Wow.

1:20:42 Speaker 3 You know, like... And we know the legacy of the Rebbe, and I've seen it from Siberia to Haiti during the earthquake when the IDF responded with a Chabad rabbi as part of the rescue team. You know, you're meeting secular Israeli nurses who tell you, "Oh, yeah- Not religious, but it's important Chabad's here 'cause it's about the spirituality of the Jewish people.

1:21:08 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:09 Speaker 3 You know, or Haitians are naming their children Israel, and they say they don't know what a Jew is, Israeli. They say, "The children of Abraham came to save us," and in there is Chabad.

1:21:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:21:21 Speaker 3 You know? So I think, I hope when the book... People will buy it in Crown Heights, and, excuse me, they'll have one response, either intellectually or emotionally. But for me, if some other Jew and buys it and says, "Wow, I... That's pretty wild," like, you know, that, um, this person was shaped by, you know, never meeting the Rebbe. I mean, you go to Chabad houses, most people have never met the Rebbe.

1:21:56 Speaker 2 Right.

1:21:57 Speaker 3 You know, and even, like, 30 years ago. I mean, 30 years ago I wasn't traveling the world.

1:22:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:22:02 Speaker 3 That's an incredible legacy, and that picture, maybe that... Not the picture. The collaboration with The New York Times and being part of that, that's a very special thing that I had ha- that I... Either it was divine intervention, I was supposed to photograph the Rebbe. I'll never figure that out, and I'm not really interested. But that I was part of that process is a special thing photographically, but also as a Jew, that all of a sudden I felt loved for who I am, that my daughter's now, youngest daughter's in nursing school, and she has mezuzahs on every door.

1:22:45 Speaker 2 Wow.

1:22:45 Speaker 3 Or my middle daughter would bring friends home from junior high school or high school, and they would say to her, "Oh, we never... You're really religious." You know, and a lot of those kids were Jewish, and my daughter said, "No, no, we're not Jewish. My father needs to be the loudest. He needs to be... He's a big guy. He needs to be the loudest Jew." We know, and especially in the time we live in now with what happened on October 7th, there's no hiding.

1:23:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:23:15 Speaker 3 Let's be loud, not obnoxious, not doing bad things to other people, but being proud to be Jewish. And a woman asked me recently, in the dog run, is it a problem that I'm wearing a yamaka? And I said, "No, and this is not the time ever to take it off."

1:23:38 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:23:38 Speaker 3 And I'm not, I wor- I've covered my head since 9/11. I was at Ground Zero under the North Tower, and a few days later, with Rabbi Levy Bauman, we decided I should cover my head for being able to come home that day. I'm not sure really what God is or what God... Like, I'm not, I'm not learned enough to tell you. I'm really into being Jewish.

1:24:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:24:05 Speaker 3 Big time. You know, and I think the Rebbe sent an important message, you know, starting in the '70s with the Mitzvah campaign. That's the best way for us to be who we are. Don't hide. The Marranos didn't survive. It's the Jews. And listen, I know... Listen, the, some of this is beyond, you know, like, someone's gonna listen to this and say, "Well, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about." That's okay.

1:24:34 Speaker 2 That's part of being on a podcast.

1:24:36 Speaker 3 Right. I'm, it's my personal thing, so, you know, I think sitting here today, we're... Judaism in America and around the world has only been strengthened, and we're a stronger people, either directly or indirectly. And, you know, people who go to conservative synagogues or Orthodox, you know, I, you know, who may not a- appreciate, you know, the Rebbe or Chabad like it is today, I think the Rebbe affected everyone. And what I really respect about the Rebbe, he wasn't dogmatic. He was listening to everybody. And I try, I'm comparing myself to the Rebbe, but it is my, one of my attractions to who he was, that he was listening.

1:25:27 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

1:25:27 Speaker 3 In my stories, the reason I always use my subject's words as the narrative, 'cause I'm also listening. I didn't live it. And I think the Rebbe came here as a mi- as a, today maybe they would call him as, you know, he was an immigrant or he's a migrant. He was fleeing repression. We know that.

1:25:48 Speaker 2 Right.

1:25:50 Speaker 3 And, um, I think he changed... He came to America with a new vision. Imagine, he was an immigrant from this very different land-

1:26:01 Speaker 2 Right

1:26:01 Speaker 3 ... where it was very different to be Jewish, and he came to a new Jewish world. And, you know, I would say, like, no one changed Judaism in, in America, you know, in the last, you know, the years the Rebbe did or the Rebbes before him, but especially this Rebbe. That's pretty radical. There's nothing Orthodox. And I like guys who break rules. Like I can, I come from a world that people were breaking rules all the time, and I think the Rebbe, I'm not saying morally broke rules, I'm not, but he broke-

1:26:37 Speaker 2 Stereotypes

1:26:38 Speaker 3 ... right, and the rigidity of... He saved lots of Jews. I'm just one guy.

1:26:44 Speaker 2 Right.

1:26:45 Speaker 3 But that my daughters are, like, doing Friendship Circle or, you know, doing whatever they believe is... You know, when I was a kid, do you think they ever tell a Jew, "You need..." We, I knew what a mitzvah was. My mother was sending tzedakah.

1:27:01 Speaker 2 Right.

1:27:01 Speaker 3 No one ever did that.

1:27:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. It's a beautiful story. I, I mean, in many ways, in many ways the common theme that I'm picking up on in this whole conversation is the importance of listening. You know, the photograph is a photograph of listening, like we s- discussed earlier. The focus of the photograph is on the people behind the Rebbe listening to what the Rebbe is saying. That's the energy of the photograph. The photographer who's taking that photograph has a, uh, conscious mindset of listening with his eyes and his heart to what's around him, and observing, and take, and, and paying attention, and making sure that the camera can observe as much as possible with its entire frame what he thinks is important. And, and, and what you're s- And, and what draws you to the Rebbe is his ability to listen, to, to, to see what's around him-

1:27:57 Speaker 3 And he was unconditional

1:27:58 Speaker 2 ... as to pay attention. Right. And so to me it's just a story of listening and the, or as you say in your book, uh, the Hasidim grooving, grooving to the Rebbe, which I -

1:28:08 Speaker 3 Right

1:28:08 Speaker 2 ... which I love that expression. Groo-

1:28:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. Like they were in... You know, listen, it's like, you know, like if someone was grooving to rock and roll, and you know-

1:28:19 Speaker 2 Right

1:28:19 Speaker 3 ... that's where, or, you know, people were grooving to or, you know, it's like a, you know, it's a word. I mean, I wasn't a f- You know, I'm young, I wasn't living through the '60s, but that was the word. But yeah, I mean, when you look at that picture, they're grooving to their, what the Rebbe shared with them, not just on that night, but in their lives. And-

1:28:42 Speaker 2 Right

1:28:43 Speaker 3 ... I also think maybe that picture's a metaphor, you know, for people all over the world listening what the Rebbe had to say. I mean, again, for you that's all normal. That was radical.

1:28:58 Speaker 2 I don't think, I don't think it's as normal as you think. I think, uh, you know, I think, uh, hearing and listening are two different things. Listening is, is all about, is all about paying attention and f- and focusing, and, and, and, and being ready to absorb something new. And in many ways, the challenge for someone that grows up in Lubavitch, um, when everything is taken so for, so much for granted, the ability to hear something new, to observe something new-

1:29:25 Speaker 3 Right

1:29:26 Speaker 2 ... is in a way harder.

1:29:27 Speaker 3 Right. Right. That's true.

1:29:27 Speaker 2 But it's, but it, but it's still available. And, you know, i- in many ways, you know, this whole conversation has been a conversation about the power of listening, that when, when, when, when a sub- like you said before, the subject of the photo is listening to, to what, to the worl- to the moment. The people around him are listening to him. The photographer's listening. That creates a moment that is c- captured in a way that, that, that has energy c- that can last for decades.

1:29:55 Speaker 3 Right. And, and-

1:29:55 Speaker 2 That's the power of, that's the power of listening, right?

1:29:57 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe was listening. He came as an immigrant.

1:30:00 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:01 Speaker 3 Not the easy way here.

1:30:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:03 Speaker 3 And he was listening either to the pain or to whatever.

1:30:07 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:07 Speaker 3 He was listening to American Jewry, and-

1:30:10 Speaker 2 Right

1:30:10 Speaker 3 ... he also was looking, not only listening.

1:30:13 Speaker 2 Right.

1:30:14 Speaker 3 He was looking and thinking. So yeah, I think, you know-

1:30:18 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:30:18 Speaker 3 ... this picture lives on because he's listening, they're listening, and if the Rebbe was only listening to himself-

1:30:26 Speaker 2 That wouldn't work.

1:30:27 Speaker 3 Right.

1:30:28 Speaker 2 I mean, s- you know, so, so often the Rebbe's spoken about as a genius in Torah study, which he was, that he was a genius in understanding the world, which, which he, which he did, um, that he was a, a tremendous activist and charismatic leader that got people to lead, which is also true. But to me, many w- times when I think about it and I think, you know, what is the most poignant or what it... I, I could say for me, the most poignant part of who the Rebbe was, was he was a man who listened to, like you just said, to the suffering and hardship of thousands and thousands of people, and didn't turn an eye away from them, but also didn't, also didn't give them, you know, kind of cheap advice, was, was, which meant that he absorbed it. You know, just, uh, he was in many ways, first and foremost, a listener, right? And, and we also know that in many ways this is, this is what the Rebbe hes- this is what led the Rebbe to hesitate from, from assuming the leadership because it's a tremendous, tremendous burden. And he assumed that burden, and he spent decades listening, and listening, and listening. And I think in your photo you, in that kind of circle of listening, you, you pick up on that circle of listening, and in many ways have crystallized that, uh, for eternity. And for that w- uh, you know, I'm thankful, and, uh, many are thankful, and

1:32:03 Speaker 2 I'm thankful for this conversation. I'm thankful for this conversation. It's been a pleasure.

1:32:08 Speaker 3 Thank you. It's my honor and a pleasure. And, and the Rebbe, I, you know, and everyone I've ever met throughout my travels, the rebbetzins, the rabbis, Jews all over the world, like, you know, that's, you know, let me in their lives. And, you know, I think what the Rebbe... It's not what the Rebbe did, it's what, where we're living in today, like 30 years later, that message is stronger than ever, and that I was able to be, uh, someone that could help perpetuate not as, as, as, as a, you know, as a storyteller, not someone from in the community. It's been an honor, and I thank everyone who helped enrich my life, the lives of Jews, and especially my daughters. So I appreciate your, the time. Um, hope everyone appreciates what you do, and you should only have good news. And for our-

1:33:14 Speaker 2 Thank you, sir

1:33:15 Speaker 3 ... especially for our brothers and sisters in Israel during this time, we should all, uh, remember them.

1:33:21 Speaker 2 Amen, brother. Thank you.

1:33:23 Speaker 3 Amen.

1:33:23 Speaker 2 It's been a pleasure. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Sorn and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.