Ep. 32 // "Shock of Yud Shvat" w/ Rabbi Shmuly Avtzon

00:00 Speaker 1 Bringing the geulah and sort of taking upon ourselves that mission, it's a rebbe shezeh. It's a rebbe she'avoda. There was always a rebbe she'inyanim, and there was the chassid. And a big part of the rebbe's shlichus, if you may, the rebbe's job was providing the chassid with what he needs, that the chassid should do the chassid's work. And obviously, the chassid obviously was what come to the rebbe and see the rebbe doing his avoda, but that was the avoda of the klei engod, that was the avoda of the nasi.

00:24 Speaker 2 Right.

00:24 Speaker 1 It was like you came to Petrichrei, you saw the rebbe do crazy, amazing things. It's all rebbes-

00:28 Speaker 2 Yes

00:28 Speaker 1 ... and all of Klal Yisrael. But then you came back home, and what does the chassid do with his avoda? But then on Yut Shvat, the rebbe came and said, "We're, we're-- Uh, the mission of this dor is, is a rebbe sheshlichus."

00:44 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Afson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I'm here with my cousin, Rabbi Shmuley Afson, who, um, amongst other things, uh, today runs Sichos in English, an organization that his moysik, that his father founded or father was involved in the beginning of many, many years ago. His father being my uncle, Reb Yonah Afson, alav ha-shalom, and also a, uh, mechpien seven seventy. I'm not sure if there's other, other pursuits and other, and other positions.

01:40 Speaker 1 We'll, we'll, we'll get there.

01:40 Speaker 2 We'll get there. But, uh, amongst, amongst others, uh, those are, those are th- those are some of the things that keep to-- keep him busy, which is why, uh, I appreciate you taking the time today for the podcast. I thought an interesting, uh, way to frame this podcast would be, um, you know, c- obviously, we're cousins. We share last names, la-last name, um, which is, for whatever reason, a very unique last name. There are many, there are many Afsons, but they're all from the same exact family. There's only one Grandfather Afson, uh, one Man Afson, and everybody who is named Afson is d- is descended from him and his wife.

02:24 Speaker 1 Od motomieiish.

02:25 Speaker 2 Right. Right. No, but a lot of times our last names that like, you know, the-- there are others with that similar name.

02:32 Speaker 1 Right, when someone comes over and says, "Are you related to that Afson?" It, it's first cousin or at most first ones removed.

02:38 Speaker 2 I've never-

02:38 Speaker 1 You never find f-further, yeah.

02:39 Speaker 2 You've heard of another Afson in your life?

02:41 Speaker 1 No.

02:42 Speaker 2 So someone... Yeah, if someone's an Afson, then it's related to me.

02:44 Speaker 1 There's some legend that, that Uncle Lazar found someone in Ukraine that was part of a mafia or something. So, so we have, uh, we have roots.

02:52 Speaker 2 That, that, that, that's-- that makes us feel cool. That makes us feel cool. But, um, you know, practically speaking, it's a very unique name. So we're obviously cousins. But in many ways we-- And we're also the same age, more or less, uh, within a couple months. I think you're a few months older than me. But, uh, you know, for whatever reasons, we grew up in very, very different places. Um, I don't even think we ever went to yeshiva together. I don't think we-- our cr- paths ever crossed. Like a-and Alter, I think you were, I think you were in Bnei Brak and Frankfurt. I don't think you ever made it to this side of the ocean.

03:30 Speaker 1 I was in Israel then, yeah.

03:32 Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't think you ever made it to our-- to, to this side of the ocean. So even, even in that, uh, melting pot, we still didn't meet.

03:38 Speaker 1 Seven seventy you made it?

03:40 Speaker 2 I was in seven seventy, but, uh, I don't want to get into politics, but I'm not sure if you can call that... Uh, no, for me personally, without getting into, uh, general-generalizing what seven seventy, for me personally, seven seventy was, was very c- very sharply the end of my yeshiva years. Like the beginning of seven seventy marked the end of my yeshiva years. I can't put all that on seven seventy. I can put part of it, but, uh, re-regardless, that's my story. But so i-in my yeshiv- i-i-in my years of yeshivah, I don't think we ever cr-- I, I don't think our paths ever crossed. And I grew up in a family on shlichus in Hong Kong, and, uh, you grew up here in Crown Heights. So, uh, I've s-said enough of your story. Uh, I think you can, you can take it from here. But I, I think that it would be a very interesting kind of exploration of two, two, uh, Lubavitcher boys grow-- uh, born more or less in the same time, uh, to, to two men who are brothers. Uh, it'd be interesting to kind of see the similarities, the differences, um, both in-

04:51 Speaker 1 Right. And I think part of it as well is saying Crown Heights versus shlichus today is very different than it was in the eighties and nineties. The, the dichotomy was a lot stronger.

05:02 Speaker 2 Yeah.

05:02 Speaker 1 And, uh, like today, bechalal, it's one global village. But then i-it meant a lot on many-

05:08 Speaker 2 Yeah

05:09 Speaker 1 ... on many accounts.

05:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. It was like, oh, the global village. I think the global village thing only covers up on, on the differences. Um, but I agree that, I agree that a lot of the differences that were there are no longer there or are much less defined, not so much 'cause there's internet, and we can Zoom each other. You know, that's nice, but that doesn't really change facts on the ground. It's more that I think that, you know, shlichus is in some ways less shlichus, and Crown Heights is less Crown Heights.

05:38 Speaker 1 Right, right, right. Yeah.

05:39 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, 'cause the global village is usually a reference to the internet.

05:43 Speaker 1 Right.

05:43 Speaker 2 Like, or like tech-

05:44 Speaker 1 It's also like a-

05:44 Speaker 2 ... technology

05:45 Speaker 1 ... or when we s- when we talk about, uh, chutz l'meoni chutza, so the chutz and pnimah today.

05:49 Speaker 2 Right.

05:50 Speaker 1 Like where does one finish? Where does one end? Where, where does one start?

05:53 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah, and you know, like th-there was also, you know, we were both born in times when, um, the Rebbe was alive, so that also made a very big difference of, well, you know, were you around the Rebbe or were you not? Were you in that atmosphere? Were you not in that atmosphere? We're the same age, like-

06:11 Speaker 1 And then there was the post Choson Adar pre-Gimel Tammuz. There was right after Gimel Tammuz. There was, uh-

06:15 Speaker 2 Yeah.

06:16 Speaker 1 There was, there was a lot happening.

06:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I'm not sure if we'll get to that, to that part of it. Uh, and I don't mind, but we'll see. A lot to cover there. No, but, um, like, my guess is you remember, you remember the Rebbe to some extent.

06:33 Speaker 1 Sure.

06:34 Speaker 2 Okay. So I don't.

06:35 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

06:35 Speaker 2 So for example, right there is, is, is a, is, is an obvious kind of difference. But why don't you talk a little bit about, um, what Crown Heights was like or what you remember growing up? Um, what was that like?

06:54 Speaker 1 Right. So I was born in Taf Shamin Zayin. It's in 1987, so that's, uh, about, uh, in Chav Ze'einer I was four and a half. So I have very few memories from pre Chav Ze'einer, um, though what I know is, and so I heard from my father and others, but my father, the w- number one priority is that the kids should be by the Rebbe.

07:19 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:21 Speaker 1 Right? When we talk about living in Crown Heights, I mean by the Rebbe, but it wasn't, it wasn't a given, right? There was also many people that took it for granted, and was like, "You're here. You came whenever you came." But my father, every opportunity possible, we came. So I'm not sure if this started Taf Shin Nun, Taf Shin Nun Alef, if I was two, three, but every Shabbos in those years was a farbrengen from after Taf Shin Behes, after Chabad Shabbos, the Rebbe would farbreng every Shabbos. My father had a place basically right in front of the Rebbe across the open aisle, and there would be a table like this in front of him, and the way I understand it is I was sitting there on the table every week. So we would come, we would have nash prepared from before Shabbos, and I was there. My older brother Levi was there.

08:02 Speaker 2 This is pre-era of days. Crown Heights pre-era of-

08:05 Speaker 1 Pre.

08:06 Speaker 2 We're not talking about that.

08:07 Speaker 1 What are we talking about? What are we, what are we not?

08:11 Speaker 2 Good. Then, uh-

08:11 Speaker 1 Are, are the parameters there?

08:12 Speaker 2 That's the stop, stop. I interrupted you now.

08:15 Speaker 1 Um, and so, so obviously, so Shabbos was Shabbos by the Rebbe. Dollars, so we didn't go every single dollars obviously, but for the year Meledes, right? You see the picture over here. That's me f-for my, my fourth, my fourth birthday. Um-

08:36 Speaker 2 Well, certainly not your third. Your hair's already cut, so.

08:39 Speaker 1 Right. Right. No, that, that doesn't mean much. You'll see before my third, I, I pretty much had the same amount of hair.

08:44 Speaker 2 Uh-huh. See.

08:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. It, it wa- it didn't do well. Aside for the first three people that cut my hair, everyone else just came to eat some, uh, some-

08:49 Speaker 2 That's an absent-

08:50 Speaker 1 Yeah

08:50 Speaker 2 ... it's a, it's an absent thing. My brothers are the same way.

08:52 Speaker 1 I know. All right.

08:53 Speaker 2 Maybe. I don't know. Not me, but my brothers.

08:55 Speaker 1 So yes, so we'd go very often, the fierach, and then came Choson Adar. So probably, I don't know if I would say my most, my most vivid memory, but my earliest strong memory is Choson Adar happening, right?

09:13 Speaker 2 Hmm.

09:13 Speaker 1 And I think, and that was... We'll talk about it, I believe, and this is probably, again, I would assume you as well, but living out of Crown Heights maybe was different, but definitely for me and my friends living here, and my age, a bit older, a bit younger, these years, and especially Choson Adar, Gimel Tammuz, and everything in between and before and after that, that period are, were extremely formative in our childhood-

09:40 Speaker 2 Hmm

09:40 Speaker 1 ... and who we are and whatever not, and where we are today, but that's, that, that, that's a whole topic of its own. So Choson Adar happened, and just understand how clueless I was, but how much of a roishon this made was that we heard that the Rebbe fell.

09:57 Speaker 2 Right.

09:59 Speaker 1 I, I can't say if this was for weeks or months, but till today, I have this memory in my head. For, for a while, I understood that the Rebbe was walking down the stairs in 770-

10:08 Speaker 2 Right

10:09 Speaker 1 ... from his bimah and fell down the stairs.

10:10 Speaker 2 Right.

10:11 Speaker 1 Because all I knew from the Rebbe is the Rebbe coming into Shacharis, leaving the Rebbe's bimah, where the Rebbe farbrengs, where the Rebbe davens. The Rebbe fell as a child, right? Where the Rebbe fall, down the stairs.

10:22 Speaker 2 But that's also what the word fall means. The word fall means falls down when usually from standing.

10:27 Speaker 1 Right.

10:28 Speaker 2 Or stairs, especially if-

10:29 Speaker 1 Then, then it was like a while later that the Rebbe fell at the oil.

10:32 Speaker 2 Right.

10:33 Speaker 1 So, so, so that was, that was big. That was a big deal. Um, then we were probably in, I don't know if I was in Morah Tzipora's class, Morah Tzipora Halig in, uh, kindergarten or nursery. Uh, then this went on for the next, uh, couple years, uh, between Choson Adar and Gi- uh, Gimel Tammuz, especially Taf Shin Gimel, Taf Shin Daled when the Rebbe would come out to the balcony, and that was life. Life was at any moment the siren will go on, and we run to 770.

11:06 Speaker 2 So the school would clear out?

11:08 Speaker 1 I don't... To get the exact details, you have to ask the, the, the teachers and principals and maybe older bochurim. At the time, the way I remember it, I, I can't remember if we would leave school, but definitely from the moment I was home, if it was 4:00 PM, 5:00 PM, 6:00 PM, 9:00 PM, 10:00 PM-

11:25 Speaker 2 Right

11:25 Speaker 1 ... whenever it was, and we were already in pajamas, the Rebbe came out. Before the Rebbe came out, the, the siren would go on. We'd be running up Kingston Avenue, find some place, and sometimes the Rebbe came out for a minute, for a mo- for a second, for a few minutes. It was one of those Yut As Kislev, I believe. We came there, and then I think my parents weren't even here, so we went with the babysitter. We just came, you know, for a few minutes. We'll go back home. Six hours later, we're coming home 'cause the Rebbe was out for over five hours.

11:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

11:51 Speaker 1 A- a- a- and but there's no concept of time and because it was all whenever the Rebbe decides to come out for Mincha or Maariv. There was no official zmanim. So you're always on alert. Um, a- and that was it, and you're not gonna miss it because, you know, every, every glimpse of the Rebbe at the moment was, was everything. Then, then, um, then was Cheshvan, I believe, until Adar when the Rebbe stopped coming out, followed by Chavsei HaNader, the second stroke. And then we would start going, then the Rebbe was in Beth Israel. Then we started going, uh, I definitely remember a few rallies there, going there, walking there after Pesach on Tal Lecha. They did like a Tal Lecha the second day, the last day of Yom Tov, so you walk one way. Um, and constantly saying Tehillim, then came Gimmel Tammuz. And Gimmel Tammuz was just this... I'm sure there's ma-many other people and, and probably older people that can give a much better, a richer, if you, if you may, uh, if we're looking for a rich-

12:51 Speaker 2 If they, if they-

12:52 Speaker 1 A tier. Right

12:52 Speaker 2 ... if they agree to talk about it.

12:54 Speaker 1 Right. Um, but it w- it was, I don't know if it was a slap in the face. It was a complete shock. It was a complete shock, and it, it's always there. It's always there one way or another. It's like, it, it's-

13:07 Speaker 2 What do you mean it's always there?

13:08 Speaker 1 By, by me, as almost 30 years later.

13:11 Speaker 2 Right.

13:12 Speaker 1 It's, uh-

13:13 Speaker 2 The shock is there.

13:14 Speaker 1 The shock, yeah, the, that shock element. Um, and that, right, so at the moment it was, it was, you know, it was total confusion and, and then narratives started being created as happens in every such situation. Um, I would, at least in my experience, Crown Heights of the next decade, I guess, until I went out of town for yeshiva, was all one big aftershock-

13:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

13:46 Speaker 1 ... of Gimmel Tammuz-

13:48 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

13:48 Speaker 1 ... in many different ways. I don't think it's, it's the point here to get into the nitty-gritty, but, uh, anyone's been around knows, uh, what I'm saying.

13:54 Speaker 2 No, that's for the mikveh. That's for the mikveh episode.

14:01 Speaker 1 But yeah, but it was... But, but, but in a positive sense, everything was very, I would say everything was very, uh, Rebbe oriented, and it was like people were, like, fighting to keep the shchuna, the Rebbe shchuna. Um, and tha- and any negativity or politics was sort of based around that, um, which was, I guess, somewhat positive. Also very, there was a negative element there where the kids growing up were like, "All of this is just very toxic."

14:27 Speaker 2 Right.

14:27 Speaker 1 Um, then, but, you know, growing up, I started off in Bobov Yeshiva, then moved to Ohel Torah. Um, it was very, it was, you know, when we made Ohel Torah Nicks, that was the, the age of the Ohel Torah Nicks. Um, then I finished yeshiva, uh, in cheder, went to Eretz Yisrael for whatever reason, went to Eretz Yisrael for five years. Yeshivat Chana, Yeshivat Gedalah. Went to Bronfman shlichus. That was in '770. Got married, got married.

14:58 Speaker 2 You were in a-- Oh, you went to Bronfman as a shliach from Eretz Yisrael?

15:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I, I skipped the year dalet, uh, system.

15:05 Speaker 2 Oh, okay. I thought you were in Bronfman as a bocher, and I guess not.

15:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, if you were expecting a rundown on Bronfman chinuch or-

15:12 Speaker 2 No, no, no, that wasn't what... I wasn't anticipating that.

15:14 Speaker 1 Right.

15:15 Speaker 2 It just, just shows-

15:15 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I was in Eretz Yisrael. Yeah

15:16 Speaker 2 ... just shows how old I am or 'cause I, I used to know where you went to yeshiva.

15:20 Speaker 1 Right.

15:20 Speaker 2 I used to know where... Yeah. Yeah, look, it's, uh... So, so, so just to compare and contrast a little bit.

15:29 Speaker 1 Right.

15:29 Speaker 2 I have no recollection whatsoever of Chavsei HaNader. Zero. Uh, I remember, I remember very vaguely as a kid, uh, knowing that the Rebbe wasn't well. It's not even at a level of euphemisms, fell, didn't fall. What it-- It was so distant to me. There was a time in my life that I thought I remembered being at one of those, um, post-stroke rallies in '770 and seeing the Rebbe, like actually seeing the Rebbe on the balcony. That memory has since faded many years ago. I'm not even sure if I ever had it or if I remembered it through a video.

16:04 Speaker 1 Right.

16:04 Speaker 2 You know, you can t-- or you were told you were there, so now you... You know, I... It was never a vivid memory. Um, even though whe-when my-- we would come to New York usually and to America for the summer, my parents would bring me for dollars. So the same picture that you have on your wall, there's a picture of me out there, you know, somewhere probably, you know, with me, with me at dollars also. I don't know if I was there ever at that age. It could be I was younger.

16:27 Speaker 1 It traveled then. It wasn't what it is today.

16:29 Speaker 2 No, we used to come every summer because-

16:31 Speaker 1 Every summer?

16:31 Speaker 2 Yeah, 'cause... No, 'cause more 'cause my parents were homesick. You know, like they, they were all the way in Hong Kong, so once a year they would come, they would come for the summer.

16:38 Speaker 1 Then you would learn in Australia, right? Or that was later.

16:40 Speaker 2 That was years later. That, that was, that was after Gimmel Tammuz.

16:43 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

16:43 Speaker 2 But so, like, you know, vis-à-vis Gimmel Tammuz, I, I... The only memory I have is Gimmel Tammuz being told one day very plotzung, but it wasn't like it was like, oh, the Rebbe passed away. I didn't even know who the Rebbe... Like, what does that mean? Like, it wasn't like I've been, I've been engaged and engrossed in this world.

17:02 Speaker 1 Right. But you were, you were on shlichus and doing the Rebbe's work, so there was that kind of-

17:06 Speaker 2 Yeah, but not in that... I mean, I, I was a kid.

17:09 Speaker 1 You didn't, you didn't just hear of some zeidy that you didn't know.

17:12 Speaker 2 It was not sa-- It was not, it was not... You have to remember, it was not part of my life. A-and, and as a kid, most kids are not so much, you know, at least non-geniuses like me are not so much into abstract ideas as kids. They are like, "What's in front of me?" So, you know, it wasn't part of my weekly routine, monthly routine, daily routine. It wasn't part of my life. I was in Hong Kong, you know, playing sports and going to this school with kids that weren't religious.

17:41 Speaker 1 Got it.

17:41 Speaker 2 I mean... So one day my parents tell me that, that the Rebbe passed away. You know, just also to give you a ph-picture, like in Hong Kong it was already Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon. We're 12 hours ahead. You know, my father sat shiva for a day 'cause whoever was motzeh him told him to sit shiva for a day, and I remember jumping on the couches. Like it wasn't, it wasn't a thing for me. Um, you know, uh, not... I, I'm not pointing that out to, to, to try to figure out what that means for me. I think, I think for kirat, I think it's interesting for me to understand how it was for people who were more inside of it. You know, 'cause you, you spoke about, you spoke about the, you know, the shock and how it, how it remains. I mean, it's, it's interesting to open that up a little bit. Like, there's... You know, w- why, why was there, why was there such a shock? I mean, sadness I understand, loss I understand, but, but, but a shock, like, you know, what... It, it's easy to say that people were making stuff up, but, uh, the Rebbe, first off, the Rebbe wasn't, wasn't a young man to begin with, then the Rebbe wasn't well for two years. What did, what did you as a child expect to happen, or were you not thinking about it?

19:06 Speaker 1 Look, I was five, six, and seven years old, right?

19:10 Speaker 2 Right.

19:10 Speaker 1 So I'm, I'm not here to... But, but my understanding was that this shock was by older people as well. Look, there was a lot of factors involved, but I would say at the core, I think there was pretty much a, a, an, a belief or a narrative or a pshtus, whichever way you'll define it, that it can't happen. It was, it was... That's just the way it was. It was impossible.

19:40 Speaker 2 Right.

19:41 Speaker 1 Um, you could hear the drashes from the time and the, the, the farbrengens of that time was maybe here and there, there were other voices, but that was pretty much the understanding. And at least the way we saw it, it was meiusiddon mesichas, it was meiusiddon the chinuch the Rebbe gave us. M- m- much of it wasn't even so super sophisticated. There was Chabad, seven doros, dor hashevi.

20:04 Speaker 2 Right.

20:04 Speaker 1 There's no next dor. The Rebbe, the Rebbe's finishing eretz batzo legani, v'mamshich l'shchinah lamata together with us and taking us out of galus. It, it, it... Right. As I'm saying, on, on a basic level, it wasn't... Yeah, you had, you know, Reb Yael would come and, and, uh, and have big pulpulum about it. But I think for the hamoyn am, it was, it was just, "This is impossible. There is no, there is no alternative."

20:30 Speaker 2 So if you could-

20:30 Speaker 1 That, that, that's from a narrative place. But then also, remember there was the, the, the connection, the emotional connection to the Rebbe.

20:37 Speaker 2 But that, that describes sadness and pain. That, that explains sadness and pain, right? Like, you know, if, if, if someone... Forget about Lubavitch, if someone loses their parent who's 95 years old and lived a full and beautiful life-

20:53 Speaker 1 Right

20:53 Speaker 2 ... and they tell you that they're in pain, you don't say, "Oh, well, the... It was about-"

20:57 Speaker 1 Right. I, I understand that.

20:57 Speaker 2 "You saw it coming anyway." No.

20:58 Speaker 1 But, but, but I'm also, of course, sharing the experience of a young child.

21:01 Speaker 2 I understand.

21:02 Speaker 1 Which, which... So for a young child, you know, the Rebbe is living forever, and that was it. It, it's not, it, it wasn't a super sophisticated... But again, but, but here-

21:12 Speaker 2 But your feeling, your feelings were corroborated by the adults

21:14 Speaker 1 ... and here probably, right, and here probably is where, as you mentioned earlier, this is where I'm already remem- going to my memories and bringing it together with narratives I heard later in life, and the sichas and the, and the, and the arguments in yeshiva and- ... which was, which was a big part of life in the '90s and, and 2000s, et cetera.

21:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

21:32 Speaker 1 So, so, so looking back, yeah, uh, maybe... But, but it was definitely there. There was definitely that, that thing that it was, it was mufrech. It was clear to us that what's going on was cheveli Mashiach and, and, uh, this is it, and it just... Right. The wash then was with one swing of the hand, the Rebbe will take us out of galus, right? That was the, that was the zach.

21:54 Speaker 2 Homesick for Lubavitch is brought to you by Yuvala Media, which, yes, is my video production company. At Yuvala Media, we believe in the same principles as this podcast. Namely, that in our communities, there are just so many stories worth sharing and worth telling, and that in the end, a good story is always so much more. Over the past few years, we have helped dozens of nonprofits, companies, and families share their very precious stories with the community. If you're looking to share your story, please don't hesitate to reach out to us for a free consultation at hello@yuvalamedia.com. Again, that's hello@yuvalamedia.com. A link can be found below as well. For now, let's get back to the podcast. But now that you're older, so I mean, I, I, I could go in the direction where like, what do you think about the people that said this? What do you think about the people that said that? I don't know. I mean, I don't find that super interesting-

22:46 Speaker 1 Right

22:46 Speaker 2 ... to be honest. Um, at least, at least not with people our age, 'cause it's, it's not really, it wasn't really something that we were involved in. We were kids. But, you know, what do you think now that you're older and you're looking back at it through the lens of, you know, accumulated experience and understanding? You know, how do you unpack it looking back? You know, is it... Y- 'cause you said an interesting line before that, "It was a shock then, and it's remained with me until today." You know, at, at some point, at some point-

23:20 Speaker 1 Right. So I guess what, if I'm thinking about what it remains today, I don't know if it's the shock or it's the pain, but there's a certain sort of thrown off.

23:27 Speaker 2 Right.

23:28 Speaker 1 Right? That, that's sort of like-

23:29 Speaker 2 Right. That's ex- exactly how I understood-

23:31 Speaker 1 Disoriented. Right

23:31 Speaker 2 ... that's exact... Oh, disoriented is a very powerful word, and, and I, and I, uh, it, it, it... That's exactly what I'm, what I'm g- getting at. You know, how do you... At some point, as you get older, you choose whether or not to hold on to how something was understood when you were younger or to rethink it, revisit it, reframe it, you know, understand it, understand it differently based on what you know now, right? So, you know, looking back, how, how, how... Looking, looking back now, how do you understand that moment or how do you look at that moment? Is it, is it, is it, is it still the same kind of disorienting moment where everything gets thrown off and we are still in a kind of pattern of confusion or, or, or has it begun to make more sense?

24:37 Speaker 1 Look, we're... It's many years later, and it's not just time, it's also we're, we're adults, right? We're adults.

24:43 Speaker 2 Right.

24:43 Speaker 1 We have families. We have, uh, kids. Um, we're, we're in a very different position and situation. Um, it's hard to find. Obviously, a lot has, a lot has changed, right? There was how when we were kids, and then bachurim, and then newly married, and then, you know, doing different things and, and, uh, being in a few positions and seeing the, the world for whatever that means. Um, yeah, of course, a lot changed. A lot changed in, in how we understand, and we understand what the Rebbe wants from us and, and, and, uh, where we are today, and with Mela, how Gimel Tammuz fits into that. I would still say that, you know, I guess it's at times or the, the Bochurim already know that, uh, late, late night Farbrengens sometimes, uh, very late in the Farbrengen and where it's like all guard is off, and if I want to or not, I, I, I, I might go to that space that's certain like that, that, that, uh, broken space kind of.

25:42 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

25:43 Speaker 1 Um, but yeah, but, but as a whole, as a whole, you know, there... our heart's in the wrong place, our minds are, uh... come up with all kinds of ideas. But I think also, yeah, definitely there's a more wholesome understanding of, of life, of, of our mission, of Lubavitch today. Right? This is already, uh, into your space.

26:06 Speaker 3 So, so very-

26:07 Speaker 1 I don't know what's mine, what's yours.

26:08 Speaker 3 No, it's very, it's very interesting. Like, why do you, why do you, why do you go to that space with Bochurim?

26:16 Speaker 1 As I'm saying, it's, it's-

26:17 Speaker 3 Yeah

26:17 Speaker 1 ... it's something that I just do, things.

26:18 Speaker 3 It's not cold, but.

26:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's fine. No, that's what I'm saying. It's not, it's not something that I want.

26:23 Speaker 3 I'm saying you end up there.

26:24 Speaker 1 So, so that's a good point that you, that you... Yeah, that's a good point that you brought up. Like back in the day, I'd say when we were p- um, about a year after a marriage, I started teaching in Yeshivas, and then it was like part of my, I would call it then Chinuch, not like as a whole, you know, Mechanech, but like sort of like I wanna share that.

26:42 Speaker 3 Part of your job, right.

26:43 Speaker 1 I wanna share that. I wanna, you know, it's I, I feel for the, for, for the good or for the bad, it's something that I experienced, something that I was by, and, you know, sort of on that, on that cliff, right? Somewhere, you know, the, the, the, the Gimel Tammuz childhood, you know.

26:57 Speaker 3 Right.

26:58 Speaker 1 We were-- we do remember before, but-

26:59 Speaker 3 Right

27:00 Speaker 1 ... a big part of my experience was experiencing that. Um, then I, I today or not even a few years ago, it's, you know, for, for me, that's already, it's... that's not what it is. That's not what it is. I, I don't think that's the message, and I don't think that's the point. Um, other than, you know, it's similar to those Ig- guys from Russia. There's one told you how things were then. It's like, you know, all of us wanna-

27:22 Speaker 3 Right

27:22 Speaker 1 ... there's, there's a positive point where we wanna share the past and share a, a, a, a purity and, uh, an emes from that, that we, we wanna hold onto, we don't wanna lose.

27:34 Speaker 3 Right.

27:35 Speaker 1 But there's also a big part of it is I was there, you know? We, we all wanna we always wanna be on top, right? And be at a place that you weren't and then have an experience that you didn't have, and, and then share it as well, right? But yeah, today, I don't think that's, um, I don't think that's that. I, I don't consciously do it. I just think it's, it's just part of me, so it comes out-

27:55 Speaker 3 Right

27:56 Speaker 1 ... one way or another.

27:56 Speaker 3 What's, what's changed? Is it just a passage of time that it's like less, it, it just kind of fades away, or it's a shift in understanding of what's important?

28:08 Speaker 1 I, I would love to say that it's the second, mean that it's only the second.

28:12 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

28:13 Speaker 1 And that time hasn't affected me at all, but I think we're all human, so probably it, it did. But yeah, but primarily, primarily it's, yeah, it's looking at what you'd call today's Bochur.

28:25 Speaker 3 Hmm.

28:25 Speaker 1 Um, looking at, uh, Lubavitch today. I'm trying to figure out what, what the Kavan is, what, what God wants from us, what, what the, what the Rebbe's mission and extension our mission is today. Um, yeah, and seeing things from a different view and seeing things differently. It's not... You can't compare how you see things when you're five, when you're 15, when you're 20, when you're 30.

28:52 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

28:56 Speaker 1 And then there's just facts on the ground, you know. When you're sitting, when you're sitting in front of a group of 50 to 100 Bochurim.

29:01 Speaker 3 Right.

29:03 Speaker 1 And the oldest guy there was born-

29:06 Speaker 3 Mm

29:07 Speaker 1 ... Taf Shin Samech Alef.

29:09 Speaker 3 Right.

29:10 Speaker 1 Right? And this is the oldest Bochur. They're, they're in Shidduchim now. They're, they're getting married, right? In some 70s. The 70 is the Bochur at the, at the end, end of the systems, your oldest boys. Y- y- you're forced, you're forced to confront it or m- maybe not everyone's con... I, I feel that I'm forced to confront it.

29:29 Speaker 3 Yeah. Any- anybody that has e- enough humility to know that time isn't something you, you have, uh, you have, uh, control over, um, should, should, should, should, should be forced to think about that, and is forced to think about that. Uh, it's interesting because you, you know, you speak about the Bochurim and, and how kind of their timeframe becomes, in many ways, the dominant timeframe, which is understandable, right? You know, it-- they, they, they are the people that you're educating. They are the student body. Um, but it, it, it, it, it, it kind of... it, it highlights to me a, a, a, a, an interesting dynamic where I th- I think one of the things that Gimel Tammuz did was it fractured, um, it fractured people according to their ages. Meaning, you know, people were always different based on their ages. When you had, excuse me, had Rebbe's Farbrengen, a six-year-old, a 40-year-old, and a 20-year-old sitting at the Farbrengen, right? And, and possibly the six-year-old was in Russia, and this 40-year-old maybe was born on the way out of Russia, you know, and so on.

30:48 Speaker 1 Right.

30:49 Speaker 3 They were all very different, but their Lubavitch experience kind of melted together into one, uh, you know. I was by Rebbe's Farbrengen in Taf Shin Alef 'cause the... it's all about, it's all about what the Rebbe said at the Farbrengen, so that's, so that's the moment that everyone shares and everyone believes- That there's a unified experience. And like, Lubavitch of Tosh and Lamed, you don't hear Lubavitch of Tosh and Lamed. Well, there's Lubavitch of Tosh and Lamed that the Bochurim understood, and there's a Lubavitch of Tosh and Lamed that the Yungleit understood, and there's Lubavitch of Tosh and Lamed that the, that the Alter Chassidim understood.

31:27 Speaker 1 Though o- obviously there was.

31:29 Speaker 3 Right, but that's not how people talk about it.

31:30 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

31:30 Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying.

31:31 Speaker 1 There's Lameds.

31:31 Speaker 3 Of course, of course there was.

31:32 Speaker 1 There's Mehads, right.

31:33 Speaker 3 Of course there was.

31:34 Speaker 1 Right.

31:34 Speaker 3 Right. At the Lameds, you already had Alter Chassidim looking at these other guys like, "What, what's wrong with..." At the young guys, "What's wrong with you? What are, what are you... You know, you're a bunch of hooligans with your, with your mitzvah tanks."

31:45 Speaker 1 Right.

31:45 Speaker 3 And then there have been waves of mitzvah tanks, so now they have to shut up. Whatever. Rebbe Hein or Rebbes, right? There were, of course there were many experiences, but in our concept of it, it's like, no, no, there was a Lameds because it's all about what the Rebbe said in the Lameds or what happened in the Rebbe's chassid in the Lameds. I, I, I... But a- after Gimel Tammuz, that's over. That part is ov- That, that's gone, right? And so now you end up having a situation where like we're talking about now, and now there's the Bochurim, and then there's you, and then there's the people who are older than you who look at Gimel Tammuz a certain way.

32:17 Speaker 1 Right. And I think, I think part of what was going on here and around Lubavitch probably in general, um, in the nuns, in the '90s, many people were trying to hold on-

32:29 Speaker 3 Yeah

32:29 Speaker 1 ... to that pre-Gimel Tammuz in many areas, but we'll use the language you've been using, that uniformity. And like I would say what was going on here for like 10 years, there was literally a fight for the soul of the Shchona.

32:41 Speaker 3 Right.

32:42 Speaker 1 Right? Where it's like, is it gonna be this way? Is it gonna be that way? A- a- as if we're gonna be able to canonize-

32:48 Speaker 3 Right

32:48 Speaker 1 ... the Shchona.

32:49 Speaker 3 Freeze it.

32:50 Speaker 1 Right?

32:50 Speaker 3 Yeah.

32:51 Speaker 1 And, and, and time will be frozen, and... So I think that w- you know, part of it was very positive. It was like... 'Cause again, because post-Gimel Tammuz reality was completely out of the question-

33:03 Speaker 3 Right

33:03 Speaker 1 ... so how do you deal with the post-Gimel Tammuz reality? Deny it in all kinds of ways.

33:08 Speaker 3 Right.

33:09 Speaker 1 Right? And denying it doesn't have to come in all crazy ways. Part of it is just, right, let's keep the status quo. Don't make any changes. Um, but then which status quo and which changes not to make? So that's where the, the fight happened. Um, and then it sort, at some stage it was like, "Guys, this, this, this isn't it." And Gimel Tammuz is part of the plan. Um, and part of the plan means part of the way the Eibish created the world. And like you said, time and zman umakom are also n- a, a briah of the Eibish there-

33:39 Speaker 3 Right

33:39 Speaker 1 ... uh, for a reason. And then when you s- s- so that's when you start realizing, okay, so what does this actually mean? And then you realize that there are a few truths here, and one of them is the one that you just mentioned. That in a time like this, the individual in, in the lashon of the Sichas and, and the, and, and chassidus bechalal, the tachsin, right? The yachid. The yachid gains a certain, I don't call it a prominence, but it, it's put out there, and it's like, you know, now you, where are you?

34:07 Speaker 3 Right.

34:09 Speaker 1 Um, now that's obviously very, very complicated because it's something that really wasn't there. Again, I'm sure out of Crown Heights was a bit different, but here definitely it was, it was the Rebbe's Shchona.

34:21 Speaker 3 Right.

34:21 Speaker 1 And everything was just part of that klal, was part of that. A- and you... And now all of a sudden it's, no, we need people here to make decisions, and we need Rabbonim to make decisions, and we need Agudas and Merkas and all the moises to-

34:36 Speaker 3 Nobody in Crown Heights said they needed Agudas.

34:39 Speaker 1 I said we'll talk about Sluchim also.

34:40 Speaker 3 Okay, I'm just saying.

34:42 Speaker 1 The, the point is positions of leadership are people actually making decisions.

34:45 Speaker 3 Yeah.

34:47 Speaker 1 So the, in the first stage, I don't think anyone wanted to make decisions, or anyone wanted anyone else to make decisions.

34:51 Speaker 3 I mean, this was going on before Gimel Tammuz already. You know, the, the, the founding... Not the founding of Agudas, but the famous meeting of Agudas where, where the Rebbe called in-

35:00 Speaker 1 Ktoim Nasu Ktoshim.

35:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. He called them in and told them that they have to basically assume a, a, a position of leadership. And Rabbi Chalikov told them, and I've heard this from a number of the members, um, he told them this never happened, right? The Sich had to go out because Rebbe insisted.

35:19 Speaker 1 Oh, saying that what just happened didn't happen.

35:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. Like we're not, we're not-

35:22 Speaker 1 Right. And then there was the Sicha-

35:22 Speaker 3 We're not, we're not, we're not playing, we're not playing ball

35:24 Speaker 1 ... and then the Sicha Beis Adar Mem Ches that Rebbe, I understand that Rebbe asked to be magiyad a few times and was never given in to the Rebbe.

35:30 Speaker 3 Right.

35:30 Speaker 1 Imagine the Rebbe's asking to edit the Sicha 'cause it's so fundamental. Magid this in Sharayim. 'Cause by not giving in, by not giving it in, it's as if it didn't, it wasn't said.

35:37 Speaker 3 Yeah. Look, this is very important stuff. This is very important stuff, and, uh, not to get into politics, but I, I can't anyway-

35:44 Speaker 1 Right

35:44 Speaker 3 ... 'cause there are people that are related to me, you know, in this, and-

35:48 Speaker 1 Everyone's related to everybody.

35:49 Speaker 3 No, but I mean, like it's, you know, uh, let some- let someone else... I, I, I can't be objective about it. That's a simple fact. But that there is, there is a point where, where y- you know, you, you said before that, you know, at, with, as time passes, people have realized or people have decided. I don't think there's... Uh, nobody made a decision. Sad- sadly, sadly, or not sadly, maybe understandably, the fact is that, that there has never really been a public reckoning about what was correct, what wasn't correct, what, what, you know, even if it was understandable, and even perhaps correct at the time, it's no longer correct. There, there has not been that kind of reckoning, um, certainly not publicly, and I don't mean publicly a, a, a, a, a, a, uh, an apol- a, an, an apology-

36:39 Speaker 1 Hang people up in the, in the town square.

36:40 Speaker 3 An apology in The New York Times or on, you know, the equivalent of w- of that in, in Lubavitch. My point is like simply the conversation has never happened in any, in any, in any real way. It's kind of... To me, what, what's happened is that, you know, younger people have grown up, and younger people have realized, whether consciously or subconsciously, that living life, uh, going down a dead end is not a good idea Right? The, the mashal I have in my head is that, uh, you know, and I've thought about this for, for, for a while, this mashal, where, you know, you have a ship, um, you have a ship that is, that is... that has a hole in it. It's an irreparable hole. You can't fix it, but it's a very small hole. So we know that this ship is gonna be in the ocean for, uh, it's... The ship can't reach land. We know that it's not going to sink right now, but we know it's going to sink within thousand sixty years.

37:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

37:43 Speaker 3 Okay. Just, just for the people gett- getting nervous, I'm not saying that that ship is Lubavitch. I'm saying there is a ship that, that, that's in the ocean that has a hole in it that means that it, if it doesn't reach land, it's gonna sh- sink in sixty years. Now, on that ship, you have people that are older and you have people that are, uh, you know, in their 80s, and you have people in their 60s, and people in their 40s, people in their 20s, and so on. You have the whole gamut of people on that ship. How do the people on the ship look at this prospect of the ship sinking in sixty years? I think it's simple to say that the people who are older, the ship sinking in sixty years is an abstraction, meaning it's... they care about it only because they care about their loved ones, which is... Okay, abstraction doesn't mean fake, but it's not as immediate. Their life has been lived. They've, they've lived their life. By the time this, this problem-

38:39 Speaker 1 Okay

38:39 Speaker 3 ... is real, they're gone. They know that, right? The younger people, "W-wait a second. We're going to sink on this ship? We're not gonna do anything about it? We're not gonna do anything about it, we're just gonna wait?" Like, like that-

38:55 Speaker 1 Right

38:55 Speaker 3 ... that's not a plan, right? And so I think, you know, however you wanna understand it, and however much you wanna make out of it, however little you wanna make of it-

39:05 Speaker 1 Right

39:05 Speaker 3 ... or if you wanna make anything out of it, you don't like it, that's also fine.

39:08 Speaker 1 This is the mashal from Torah. This doesn't have to be Meduia, it can .

39:11 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Th-that's a disclaimer on this podcast.

39:13 Speaker 1 Right.

39:14 Speaker 3 Anything else in general. But my point is that I, I don't think it just happened. I think, I think, I think as pe- younger people-

39:24 Speaker 1 Look, so I'll tell you, I, I have no-

39:25 Speaker 3 You see what I'm s- you see what I'm saying?

39:26 Speaker 1 I, I, I have no taitnes.

39:28 Speaker 3 I don't say... I didn't say there's taitnes.

39:28 Speaker 1 Meaning... Oh, I'm saying, I'm saying for myself, meaning you would speak to me ten years ago, fifteen years ago.

39:35 Speaker 3 Yeah.

39:35 Speaker 1 There were times I would sort of look at the older generation and be like, like, "What were you thinking?"

39:40 Speaker 3 Right.

39:40 Speaker 1 In so many areas, right? And we don't even have to say them. It's like, it's like-

39:43 Speaker 3 Right

39:43 Speaker 1 ... I think even like the today's bocher wouldn't... doesn't even know how dysfunctional so many things were then-

39:51 Speaker 3 Right

39:51 Speaker 1 ... 'cause it's a re- we've, we've been over that hump to a certain degree, meaning you have, you have a whole new generation of leadership and-

39:57 Speaker 3 Right

39:57 Speaker 1 ... and changes that just happen either deliberately or by osmosis or just because life happens. Um, yeah, but we would, we would sort of look around as bocher, definitely an older bocher, a young galeit, and be like, "What's going on?" Right?

40:10 Speaker 3 Right.

40:11 Speaker 1 Um, but I think, and I'm probably gonna say the same, you know, at this age, you realize like w-w-what, what's ?

40:18 Speaker 3 Right.

40:19 Speaker 1 These guys were in their, their 40s, 50s, 60s, never mind, 70s, even older.

40:24 Speaker 3 Right.

40:24 Speaker 1 And you, you were just hit like this with, with at the end of the day, zero preparation. You could say that the Rebbe prepared us, but, but the reality was that emotionally and mentally and, a-a-and hashkafic-wise, we weren't there. Um, and there was a lot of fear, so it was impossible. They pretty much were frozen. They were actually frozen. And yeah, and, you know, this is where sometimes time is, is, is more than anything.

40:52 Speaker 3 I... Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think, at least from, from my, from my standpoint, I, I don't see there's anything to be gained by, by turning around and pointing fingers. And it's not just because I wanna be a bigger man, you know, and like, uh, like, you know. No, it's just I, I... it's useless. Like, you know, what, what's, what's the point, first of all?

41:11 Speaker 1 Right.

41:12 Speaker 3 Second of all, like you said, I think there is a sense of, you know, like everybody, you're angry at your, you're angry at, at your father until you become... until you get older and you are a father and say, "Okay, wait a second. You know, the things that I was angry about, I'm not doing so well myself," or you know, "And now I respect things that..." You know, and so on. So as I, as I get older, I agree with you.

41:31 Speaker 1 There was, there was also, I think it was a few years ago during COVID, where the world was thrown into... Right? And no one had a clue what they were doing.

41:39 Speaker 3 Right.

41:39 Speaker 1 On all f- on all levels of leadership and professionals and the, it was the government, medical community, uh, Rabbonim, everybody.

41:47 Speaker 3 Right.

41:47 Speaker 1 And then you realize, yeah, like certain things happen in, in life and, and no one's prepared for them. It's like, what do you... What, what's ?

41:53 Speaker 3 Right.

41:54 Speaker 1 And at the time, everyone was all resentful. Then as time goes on, it's like, it is what it is. You would've done any better.

41:59 Speaker 3 No, I... No, no, I, I certainly don't, I certainly don't know that I would've done any better. I also, I also don't believe that... And even if I completely disagree with some of the things that were done, I, I, I c- I... it's hard for me to believe that, that the people, that the people of that generation didn't care about their children. You know, you know, of course, there are people that will come and argue about cults and stuff like that. That's not my understanding of it. It's not my experience of it, so you know, the... I, I, I sensed genuine love f-from, from, you know, towards, towards the children, towards myself, but also around me. People cared about their kids. They would not be doing something that would be... that they thought was, was, was, was going to cause harm down the road. So I think the, the idea of coming and getting upset, I mean, pe-people are upset, they're upset, but I... that's not my... that doesn't animate me.

42:56 Speaker 1 Right.

42:57 Speaker 3 So what's the point of talking about it besides, you know, besides having an excuse for a podcast? No, but, uh, seriously speaking, like I, I think that when we understand what happened and both understand how we got there in the first place- Right? Or how they got there in the first place. And also understand that those things that led us there in the first place don't just disappear by themselves. Yes, time could smooth things over, but if you're trying to really move forward, you need to understand what... I don't know if the words went wrong, but what led us there to a problematic place or to a place that, yeah, I think is a problematic place, and, and say, "Wait a second. Are those things that-- are those you say are the things that we want to hold on to or not?" You see what I'm saying? Like, if, if, how did, how did we end up in a place where, for example, we were talking earlier, where the Rebbe was telling people, "I need you to understand that, that we need to have..." Like, you need to assume responsibility. You need to assume responsibility.

44:06 Speaker 1 Simple English, right?

44:07 Speaker 3 Right? Yes. Look, the, the Rebbe took-- after the Rebbetzin passed away, the Rebbe, during shiva, wrote a tava, but he kept it private. So I don't know the Rebbe's m- what he was thinking and what he, what, you know, how he, how he saw things and, and what his, you know, what the process was, but clearly there was a difference between private and public. So I don't know how much the Rebbe wanted people to pu- publicly think about these things.

44:32 Speaker 1 Yeah, but even-

44:32 Speaker 3 I don't-

44:32 Speaker 1 Let's not that tava. Let's say the

44:35 Speaker 3 Right.

44:35 Speaker 1 Right. Chavkes Nishton without even talking about, um, his stalker's brach, right? It was like, "To us was okay. I did mine, you do it." But the, the immediate response, there were all kinds of responses, but there was a big tale of shove of a lot of the responses was, "Here, Rebbe, take it back."

44:50 Speaker 3 Right.

44:50 Speaker 1 Right? If it was, if it was, uh, if it was that Shabbos, uh, the, the Hasid getting up and telling the Rebbe, "We can't. You have to do it on Sunday."

44:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

44:59 Speaker 1 Mordechai and David coming by the Rebbe, and the lady come by the Rebbe. Um, the Rebbe telling Zalman Gurari, "Literally five seconds later." It, it, it was, it was w- it was imp- it was just so hard to, to, to handle. It was-

45:12 Speaker 3 So what led us-

45:13 Speaker 1 It was just a panic response.

45:14 Speaker 3 So what led us there in the first place? I think there's a... I think, I think... Uh, I know what I can say for myself. Subjectively, I can certainly say I think that's problematic. I don't know if it's objective in the sense that people may argue with me and say fakheret that shows on, shows on a certain kind of dedication. But I think ultimately, you know, a Rebbe and a Hasid is not just about your Hagasham and how much you love the Rebbe. That's not what the whole idea is about. It doesn't, it doesn't... That's not what the Rebbe came into the w- a Rebbe doesn't come into the world so that you have someone to love and that you have someone that loves you. Like, we have to be honest that a Rebbe comes into the world to educate and inspire and, and, and, and bring people closer to the Avister. That's definitionally what a Rebbe is, right? Pick people up and make them bigger Yidden, closer to the Avister and, and, and, and, and, and inspired t- to do that work. This is always how we've understood, understood Hasidism. It's not just about your feelings. I'm not saying the feelings are wrong.

46:18 Speaker 1 Right.

46:19 Speaker 3 I'm not saying that they're bad. See, it's not-- it doesn't end at if I love the Rebbe, then, then... Like, so at some point, the fact that our feelings or other people, their feelings, that wasn't, uh, to me, it wasn't relevant. Like, I was a kid, but the fact that the feelings got in the way of assuming the responsibility that the Rebbe was openly talking about, and that in hindsight, we can see logically, obviously, right? The Rebbe said, "Look," when the Rebbetzin passed away, the Rebbe wrote a tava, right? Well, what does that, what does that tell you? It te- I mean, the Rebbe unders- the Rebbe saw or the Rebbe... I know these things start getting very complicated-

46:56 Speaker 1 Right

46:56 Speaker 3 ...for people. You know, uh, o- one day I'll say exactly what I think, but, uh, you know, uh-

47:03 Speaker 1 How many seasons do you have to be through to-

47:05 Speaker 3 No, no, I'm saying like, I, you know, I can say what I say, uh, what I-

47:08 Speaker 1 Right

47:08 Speaker 3 ...what, what I'm, what I think, but that doesn't mean that you agree with me. Um, you know, the Rebbe saw that, that, that, that, uh, that, that he, he was, he was getting older or that he was already very old. He was already... And we, we also forget, the Rebbe was push it in that time already in his late eighties. But the Rebbe saw that, that, that the day is getting near. Al Pi Teva, the day is coming near. The Rebbetzin passed away, and, and it's time, it's time to, to make, to make a plan for the day after. I don't know how else you explain the Rebbe bringing lawyers and bringing in aidim. Whether or not you agree who the aidim were or who they should have been, that's irrelevant. There is a, there, there was, that did take place. There's testimony to it. There's legal documents to it. And not even that, the Rebbe spoke about it in sichas. The Rebbe spoke about it. And like you just said, Chavkes, even in the more kind of euphemistic, not like legally, but push it, take responsibility, people pushed back at that. So it's clear that the Rebbe was trying to p- to, to, to bring people to that point, and the feelings got in the way, is what you're saying, right? The feelings got in the way. So, so if the, if the... Like, like clearly there's a problem there. You don't think there's a problem there? Or maybe it's just me.

48:39 Speaker 1 Right. So, so, so a few points. A few points, right? So number one, as you just started saying, by us, feelings don't get in the way, right? But we're humans, right? Now, you'll say, but when our, my feelings get in the way, it's about having an extra piece of sushi. And these people or that time, feelings getting in the way was, was, you know, I c- I might even call it dangerous, right? The consequences were greater. Fine. Um-

49:01 Speaker 3 Hmm

49:01 Speaker 1 ...it's like when everyone gets frustrated with the Israeli government, "Why aren't they doing this, and why aren't they listening to the Rebbe?" And I'm like-

49:06 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah

49:06 Speaker 1 ...and it's like, and it's like-

49:07 Speaker 3 'Cause we listen to Rebbe on everything.

49:11 Speaker 1 I heard from, uh, from, uh, Of- Ofer Maidavnik, which be in Sfas. He's Arik Sharon's nephew.

49:17 Speaker 3 Ah.

49:17 Speaker 1 So during the disengagement, it not good, it was 20 years ago. So he went to him, and he was speaking to him about it, and he talk-- finally, he confronts him. He says, "Arik, you, you had a Kesher with the Rebbe. You knew the Rebbe, and you take it you loved the Rebbe." And he's like, "How do you not listen to the Rebbe?" And Arik looks at him and says, "Nu, ba'atem ha-Chabadnikim machshivim lekol ma shehaRebbe omer." You know, it was, uh, like take it easy.

49:37 Speaker 3 That's very true. I don't know.

49:41 Speaker 1 Um, so that's not... Right? So that's, that's the first point. Um, yeah, feelings, feelings are feelings, and, uh, but we're, we're, we're, we're, we're-

49:50 Speaker 3 That's-

49:50 Speaker 1 ...emotional creatures, right?

49:51 Speaker 3 That's not my title.

49:51 Speaker 1 That's number one. That's number one. That's number one.

49:53 Speaker 3 Right.

49:53 Speaker 1 Number two, I would rephrase it a bit differently. There were-- there was an element of feelings, but I don't think it was only feelings. 'Cause feelings, at the end of the day, you could come to people and say, "Moyach shata al oled." At the end of the day, be an adult.

50:03 Speaker 3 Right.

50:04 Speaker 1 Put your pants on, get, stand up, and, and, and get over it. It wa- it, it wasn't just feelings.

50:09 Speaker 3 You also, you also don't get, you don't get 20 years to deal with your feelings out there.

50:11 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Though it depends. In so- in some modalities, it's, it's a life long

50:17 Speaker 3 I was about to say that.

50:17 Speaker 1 We'll get to that later. Um, I think w- I think it wasn't just feelings, or it wasn't even primarily feelings. I think a lot of it was narrative.

50:26 Speaker 3 Right.

50:27 Speaker 1 And narrative, some of the narrative was true.

50:32 Speaker 3 Mm.

50:32 Speaker 1 By true I mean some of it was sourced, it was It was... You could say it was the way we understood it, but w- we understood what the Rebbe was telling us. We understood what Hasidus was teaching us, and we lived that way for a very decent amount of time. And then, Chaf B'Shevat, Chaf Ches Nes and Gimmel Tammuz, whichever date you'll take, but that, the, a shift did happen, right? And this will always be, was there a shift, was there not a shift? Th- there was a shift in emphasis, definitely in the way it was presented to us and the way we understood it, and that shift threw us off. And so here was sort of perhaps-

51:12 Speaker 3 So what, what was the shift in your mind? It was already Chaf B'Shevat. You're talking about the shift of Chazai and other.

51:16 Speaker 1 Um, Chaf B'Shevat, um, I guess probably in the mid-mems, maybe a bit earlier, or I'll get to that in a, in a minute what the shift was the way I see it. Now, of course, we can come back as revisionists, and we can come and say, "We, we always, you know, that's ," right? That was always the nekuda.

51:34 Speaker 3 Right.

51:34 Speaker 1 Um, and in some eras that's true, meaning some things, when we're speaking about, and you know, the Rebbe spoke about in the later years, a lot of it is, is, is, is, is always up. It was like, yeah, things were maybe more clear, and things were given different oisius. But the ideas were always there, right? The Rebbe didn't, I don't know, it's a basic thing, you know, in the Moshiach. The Rebbe didn't wake up touching on Alpha, seeing on Moshiach, right? That, that, that, that-

51:54 Speaker 3 No

51:54 Speaker 1 ... that's ludicrous. That it's-

51:56 Speaker 3 Right

51:56 Speaker 1 ... not something that the Rebbe spoke about earlier. It's Yiddishkite. It's-

51:59 Speaker 3 Right.

52:00 Speaker 1 But the, the, the main point that I would put it at was the emphasis on who's taking the lead, right?

52:09 Speaker 3 Right.

52:10 Speaker 1 When you say the Rebbe's job is connect us to HaShem, of course. But how does that play out, and what does that practically mean? And here, there definitely, there were changes throughout the doyeres, and primarily, and I'm sure you had people that discussed this, there was the way it was understood in previous doyeres and Devarim Shishi, and then there was Devarim Shevi.

52:29 Speaker 3 Right.

52:29 Speaker 1 Right? And the, the, the, the Devarim Shevi narrative, which was pretty much accepted probably by most, by most people. Again, you could say it came all from the Rebbe. You could say the Mashpiyim understood. You could say so- certain Mashpiyim, certain individuals, certain people in leadership. But e- either way, it's probably it's a mix of all of them, um, w- that, that gave a certain Devarim Shevi, um, understanding of the role of Rebbe and Chassid, which was a bit different than previous Devarims. So-

53:03 Speaker 3 What do you mean? Rebbe-

53:04 Speaker 1 To, to, to, to leap for a moment, if, if those sikhas that we spoke about earlier, right, and that sprach of the later years of taking ownership, if it was said in the la... I- i- in Tuchan Zayin by the Friediker Rebbe, the, the transition would be a lot easier. Or maybe it wouldn't have to be a transition at all, because maybe that was always the message.

53:24 Speaker 3 Right.

53:25 Speaker 1 It's, it's the, the post-mem Zayin, mem Ches sikhas coming after Tuchan Yod or Tuchan mem Zayin-

53:34 Speaker 3 Right

53:35 Speaker 1 ... that, that sort of threw us off our game. I think that's what it is. And that point would be that, that in Devarim Shevi, there was, Rebbe was in understanding that the Rebbe is-- there is more of a focus on the Rebbe. Before I get into details, but I think just those general terms. And the Rebbe has a shlichus, the Rebbe has a mission, and we're often Rebbe's vagon, right? We're going on, on, um, the Rebbe would say that, uh, in our man for the first class, right? You're not paying for your ticket anyways, you go first class. The Rebbe's, uh, Rebbe is a first class ticket, and we're going on the Rebbe's wagon. And a, a big part of how we understood his Skasros and Hasidus, um, today was through that prism. And then, and the Rebbe himself says in the, in the fabregen of Purim Tuchan mem Zayin, where the Rebbe asked that why lachrain we're speaking about Moshiach a lot more than we used to, et cetera. And the Rebbe says that l- lately a shift happened, and the shift is that it used to be the job of the Nasi to bring the Gulah. And we sort of did that through, uh, that we used the word Skasros, sort of we're connected to him and he-- but he's the one, he's the locomotive, right? And now it went from the Nasi to the Am. From the Nasi, who are Koil, to the, the to the Am, to the people themselves.

54:56 Speaker 3 This is when the Rebbe was explaining the Friediker was saying loud to the Gulah, loud to the Choveve, and why it didn't happen? 'Cause it sounds like a similar explanation.

55:03 Speaker 1 Um, did. I think, I think that's, uh, maybe speaking out of, uh, fabregen Tuchan mem Hey, but yeah, there's oisius there as well. It's a fascinating fabregen. It's the last, uh, Purim for me, the Rebbe fabregen on Purim day, because after Tuchan mem Ches, the Rebbe stopped fabregening during the week. Weekday, um, uh, um, to aim the progress. So it's Purim fabregen. The Rebbe then spoke about Sheva Mitzvot, and the Rebbe spoke about the changes going on in the world. On the one hand, you see amazing things, l'toi. The other hand, you see amazing things l- crazy things, l'motov. People, people are doing unbelievably, um, good things that we never imagined could happen. People also e- exhibiting cr-- um, unbelievable negative character traits. And the Rebbe explained that before Moshiach comes, then, then Vu and Daniel is, is part of Islabnu.

55:43 Speaker 3 Right.

55:44 Speaker 1 It all, it all comes out to the surface.

55:45 Speaker 3 Black and white. Yeah.

55:46 Speaker 1 It all comes out to the surface. The good comes out to the surface. The... This is mem Zayin, right? We're, uh, looking back over the last, uh, almost 40 years, right? That, that you see that a lot. You see just everything coming out. I'm saying what's going on-

55:58 Speaker 3 Right

55:58 Speaker 1 ... in the world the last year. You just see-

55:59 Speaker 3 Right

55:59 Speaker 1 ... so much coming to the surface on, on so many accounts. By yin and by yang, the world.

56:04 Speaker 3 Right.

56:05 Speaker 1 Yes. So, so one of the things the Rebbe was speaking about that, uh, the h- the, the, the p- point the Rebbe was trying to bring out is, the Rebbe finished the sicha that way with the starker loshon, that now the, the, the main point, the main point I'm trying to say is that every single person, anosh, anosh, has achrayus on themselves to bring the geulah. Right? Which in a way it's like you look back like, like what's the chiddush here?

56:26 Speaker 3 Right.

56:26 Speaker 1 Isn't that, well, did we come to this world to make a dirah b'tachtonim? Isn't that Tanya 101? Isn't that Yiddishkeit? The, definitely the way Chabad views it. It was always about bringing the geulah, making dirah b'tachtonim. And now the big message is that everyone has the achrayus to bring the geulah. So here there's obviously many nuances, and every mashpia and every guy will have his, you know, his thing, and I'm sure many, there's many people that could express it way better than me. Um, but you see the sicha, the Rebbe's definitely discussing a shift in mindset. So, and that mi- and, and a big part of that was we definitely saw that the Rebbe's, you know, when the Rebbe said Basse Legani, yeah, the Rebbe said that for the six doros, now the seventh dor is Ein HaDavar Tolui Ela Bonu Dor Ashri, but the understanding was bonu means the Rebbe, and we sort of follow.

57:18 Speaker 3 Right.

57:19 Speaker 1 And we follow. That was, that was the havanah.

57:21 Speaker 3 Right.

57:21 Speaker 1 And I'm sure you remember from farbrengens in yeshiva and things that you've learned, there was definitely that was the narrative. And again, but I can't say that it was, it was self-made. We didn't make it up. There was definite... Now, when you ask why, why that shift, and if, uh, the relationship of Rebbe and chasidim for so many doros was a certain way, how could that change? And right, and with- so without even getting to more-

57:43 Speaker 3 Right

57:43 Speaker 1 ... complicated questions of like, "Where's the person?" And all that, even from like what's the derech of Chabad? So in, in very, I would say, shituchis sicha terms, uh, the way I would put it is... No, let me take a break. You go, you go.

57:57 Speaker 3 No, no. Keep on going. I, I, I'll, I'll, I'll jump-

58:00 Speaker 1 You'll, you'll, you'll, you'll jump when you have to. Right.

58:01 Speaker 3 Of course, yeah. You're explaining how, how the sh-

58:12 Speaker 1 Yud Shvat, Tof Shin Yud, especially Yud Alef Shvat, Yud, Yud Alef Shvat, Tof Shin Yud Alef, the Rebbe started the Nsi'us, the Rebbe took upon himself an, an unbelievable mission, right? Unprecedented. It's not just b'klal the job of every yid is to make a dirah b'tachtonim. The mission of our dor is, and right, mind you, uh, as we know, this is just a couple of years after the Holocaust.

58:34 Speaker 3 Right.

58:34 Speaker 1 What was the Yiddish world then? What was Lubavitch then? Who was the Rebbe speaking to upstairs in '70?

58:39 Speaker 3 Right.

58:40 Speaker 1 Some mix of-

58:42 Speaker 3 Right

58:42 Speaker 1 ... Holocaust survivors, American kids, uh, or some, some bochurim in Yekke without beards, a few, a few Israeli bochurim that just came. Like what was the-

58:51 Speaker 3 Yeah, the far- the farbrengen didn't make the first page cover- First page on the New York Times.

58:56 Speaker 1 Or even for Chabad.

58:58 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

59:02 Speaker 1 So, and the Rebbe-- but the Rebbe was like, "Okay." So you would think at that stage, our job is to rebuild Yiddishkeit after the Holocaust.

59:09 Speaker 3 Right.

59:09 Speaker 1 And our job is to, to make a place where, you know, all kinds of kiruv. And the Rebbe did speak that language in interviews. There's beautiful interviews. I think it was an interview, Maamash, a few months later with Gershon Kranzler that, that was published, where the Rebbe gives his, his vision of how to bring Yid- uh, Yiddishkeit to the masses. And also in Basse Legani, the Rebbe speaks about Dikah V'Yikareh L'viyakhi. But, but the, but the mission is much larger than that. It's, yeah, I'm starting with 400 guys, the few hundred Mishpachas in Eretz Yisrael, and a few others that went, that are still stuck in Paris waiting to get visas to go across 'cause they just came with the trains a few years ago, uh, from Russia. And yet we're, we're taking over the world, and we're bringing the geulah. This was the, it was a very daring, um, idea and wa- and was it's, it's something that's not for the regular Joe Schmo.

59:58 Speaker 3 But I, you know, uh, let's, let's finish the thought. You were-

1:00:02 Speaker 1 So the point I'm trying to bring out, yeah, we, we, if we need to, we'll get a bit deeper, and the point is b- bringing the geulah and sort of taking upon ourselves that mission, it's a Rebbe Shazach. It's a Rebbe Shavreid. There was always Rebbe Sheinyanim, and there was the Chasid. And a big part of the Rebbe's shlichus, if you may, the Rebbe's job was providing the Chasid with what he needs, that the Chasid should do the Chasid's work. And obviously, the Chasid obviously was would come to the Rebbe and see the Rebbe doing his avoda, but that was the avoda of the Kleyn God, that was the avoda of the Noshi.

1:00:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:32 Speaker 1 It was like you came to pritishrei, you saw the Rebbe do crazy, amazing things. It's all Rebbes and all of Israel. But then you came back home, and what does a Chasid do in his avoda? But then on Yud Shvat, the Rebbe came and said, "We're, we're, uh, the mission of this dor is, is a Rebbe Sheshlichus."

1:00:49 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:00:50 Speaker 1 It's massive stuff, way beyond how to not have mashal v'zaros during davening and how to be moider a bit of ab avira.

1:00:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:00:57 Speaker 1 And how to all that. It's, it's so much bigger than that.

1:00:59 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:00:59 Speaker 1 This is not stuff for kids. It's not kid stuff. It's not even adult stuff.

1:01:03 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:01:03 Speaker 1 This is g'dolei Yisrael hamiti. This is like the, uh, one of the, one of the sichas the Rebbe spoke of bringing the geulah, and we did all we can, and what can we do now with Mimchas. And the, and so the Rebbe brings in the Arer, the Rebbe brings the, the story of Reb Yosef Telureiner, which way is a gadol b'Yisrael that decided he's going all out to bring the geulah, start off with a sudden and really graphic, uh, s- story. And the Rebbe's explaining there why what we're doing now is not like that. But the point is the g'dolei Yisrael, it did-- this was their arena.

1:01:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:30 Speaker 1 You don't do that.

1:01:31 Speaker 3 In public, yeah.

1:01:32 Speaker 1 All of us don't open four, uh, 400 companies. We, we don't do that.

1:01:34 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:35 Speaker 1 We're just having mom, mom and pop shops trying to make a decent living.

1:01:37 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:38 Speaker 1 And now the Rebbe says, "No, it's, it's United States of America. You know, we're gonna go and conquer the world."

1:01:44 Speaker 3 Right.

1:01:45 Speaker 1 So the, the havanah was, and again, a big part of this, uh, the way I understand it did come from the Rebbe, and you could see it in multiple sichas and igris, is the way we're gonna do it is to on halten bamklamke, go along with the Rebbe, and the Rebbe's gonna take you to crazy heights. And together with the Rebbe, we're gonna do unbelievable things. And we did. And we did.

1:02:04 Speaker 3 I agree with what you're saying to an extent. I mean, I certainly agree that Basse Legani- Changed the scope of the, of the brief, let's say. And I, I always point out that, I mean, always whenever I learn Basili Gani with someone, I always notice with them how in the Fiidikev Basili Gani, on which the Rebbe's Basili Gani is based for the next 40 years, the Fiidikev has a Mosihaskel in the fifth sif of Basili Gani. Like, you know, the Fiidikev, most of his mamar, certainly in America, always had like an Avodah Dikah kind of takeaway. And the Fiidikev wanted Bali Asik to do business, uh, you know, I, I think maybe that's later in the mamar to do business-

1:02:50 Speaker 1 We went over there. Yeah, the Shavchi Hasidim with Torah

1:02:51 Speaker 3 ... to do this. No, but to do Bemunah, 'cause later on he speaks about honest business, but they're a Chisidim with Torah, go down into the Armenian underworld.

1:02:58 Speaker 1 The big, the big shtus dikdusha.

1:03:00 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:01 Speaker 1 An einem and, and is what?

1:03:02 Speaker 3 To be a 48.

1:03:03 Speaker 1 Right. They're just like this mani achilah, y- no matter what, even if you're not hungry, you have to eat now.

1:03:08 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:09 Speaker 1 Transform that to kedusha, then no matter what, you have your Chisidim with Torah.

1:03:11 Speaker 3 Right. Right.

1:03:12 Speaker 1 That's what it is.

1:03:12 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:13 Speaker 1 That's the shtus dikdusha.

1:03:14 Speaker 3 Right. Right, right. And then the, the Rebbe bases a mamar on that, and it's like you're, it's like you're looking at the... You're looking, you know, you're looking at your house from 40,000 feet up in the plane. You're like, "I live in that little, that little box over there? How could I even live there?" Yeah, 'cause, you know, when you're on the ground, it's much bigger.

1:03:28 Speaker 1 Nachmer, the Rebbe has on the Basili Gani. So the Basili Gani Tof Shin Yud, the Frieda wasn't saying mamar, and then it also came out for his talos. It was mamar from earlier years.

1:03:36 Speaker 3 Yeah. The Tof Shin Yud-

1:03:36 Speaker 1 So the Frieda Rebbe said a Tof Reish Peh Gimmel. Then it wasn't called Basili Gani. Then it was called... There was two mamar, not four mamar. The first one was Boy Be'etzem HaYom HaZe, and the next one was, uh, Be'shalach Maimer. The Rebbe on the mafteach of the mamar of Tof Reish Peh Gimmel, the Rebbe wrote in, the, the

1:03:54 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:03:54 Speaker 1 Ksav Yad is out there, where the Rebbe heard from his father-in-law about this Maimer, which we know as Basili Gani, that their Maimer is a Balabatish Maimer 'cause through this Maimer,

1:04:06 Speaker 3 That, that's Basili Gani.

1:04:08 Speaker 1 That's Basili Gani.

1:04:08 Speaker 3 It's a Bal- it's a Balabatish Maimer.

1:04:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's, it's a internal work. You know, how to-

1:04:14 Speaker 3 Yeah. So-

1:04:15 Speaker 1 Get out of bed and actually come to your Chisidim with Torah.

1:04:17 Speaker 3 So, yeah. So there's no que- there's no question that there's a massive shift that took place there. Um, although I would argue that in hindsight, certainly once, once you learn the Rebbe's take on Basili Gani, it's impossible to see it as, as a small Maimer. You realize how big it is. The, the Shtus Ekdusha, Dirbtach Toinim, Iker Shinah, later on, Bizbo Zaitzers, you know, Eron Seif Lemaylem Al Ha- Al Hanketz, and so on. The- these ideas are massive ideas and, and the Rebbe opens them up immensely. Um, Basili Gani by far were, were my favorite mamar in yeshiva to learn, the yearly Basili Gani.

1:04:55 Speaker 1 So the, the annual.

1:04:57 Speaker 3 Yeah. No, the Hemshach also-

1:04:58 Speaker 1 Right, right, right

1:04:58 Speaker 3 ... but, but it's a, it's a different color. It's a different texture. I mean, the Chavad there I would bring from different Rabbeim, but also topics that you never see anywhere else.

1:05:06 Speaker 1 Right. Actually, the last few years I've been very involved, 'cause one of the projects we're working on, it's been delayed a bit, but it's gonna come out for this year's Chavad, BeEz HaShem, is the Lessons of the Marm series. So we have the lessons in Basili Gani, which is, it's Tof Shin Yud.

1:05:19 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:05:20 Speaker 1 And the Bier incorporates all the Rebbe's Bierim from all the years.

1:05:22 Speaker 3 Oh, wow. That's amazing.

1:05:23 Speaker 1 So initially, it's just like, okay, so you have, like, Tanya, and you have a Bier on it. It's not-

1:05:26 Speaker 3 No

1:05:26 Speaker 1 ... because first of all, there, there's what the Rebbe translates, then there's added explanation, then there's where the Rebbe flips the Maimer on its head.

1:05:33 Speaker 3 Yeah, it's a reframing.

1:05:34 Speaker 1 Uh, and there's the first-

1:05:35 Speaker 3 It's a-

1:05:35 Speaker 1 ... cycle, the second cycle, which is also two different styles.

1:05:38 Speaker 3 It's a reframing.

1:05:39 Speaker 1 But, but, but at the end of the day, the, yeah, the Rebbe definitely saw in Basili Gani everything.

1:05:42 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:05:43 Speaker 1 Everything that we know from the Rebbe's enseez and the Rebbe's message, uh, is all there.

1:05:46 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:46 Speaker 1 It's all there. The Rebbe saw it all there.

1:05:47 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:05:48 Speaker 1 But if you d- but without learning 40 years of the Rebbe's Basili Gani, there's no way.

1:05:52 Speaker 3 No.

1:05:52 Speaker 1 There's no way you're gonna

1:05:53 Speaker 3 No way.

1:05:53 Speaker 1 Even dream of this stuff.

1:05:54 Speaker 3 No, no. No. No, and I, I also agree with you, going back to your point about Basili Gani, I also agree with you that there's certainly in the Rebbe's Mamarim Basili Gani, there's a lot of that tension, uh, between, you know, how could you talk about this idea of Dirbtach Toinim and, and Hamshach Basili Gani Lamata in a way that's relevant to the individual?

1:06:16 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:16 Speaker 3 And you see a lot of that tension in different Ma- different years the Rebbe reformulates, and it goes back and forth, I think. I'm not a... I, I don't have a memory to know where, where-

1:06:23 Speaker 1 One of the back and forth is also Eskafi and Esachcha. Which one reigns supreme?

1:06:28 Speaker 3 No, but there's a more direct one to your-

1:06:29 Speaker 1 Who's the winner?

1:06:29 Speaker 3 There's a more direct one to your point. Yeah, Eskafi and Esachcha, the Rebbe goes back and forth. Actually, he said, um, I Chazut the Maimer, was it, uh, Nun, Nun Beis, I think, the last Basili Gani.

1:06:40 Speaker 1 The Mogidi one, Lamed He.

1:06:41 Speaker 3 Yes. It's about Es- Eskafi-

1:06:42 Speaker 1 By Lamed Aleph and Lamed He, the Rebbe's very strong about.

1:06:44 Speaker 3 Eskafi, Eskafi Ameivil Esachcha.

1:06:46 Speaker 1 Right.

1:06:46 Speaker 3 Chazut by Malachim, I think.

1:06:47 Speaker 1 Meivil Esachcha.

1:06:48 Speaker 3 Chazut by Malachim. Maybe the last time I ever Chazut. Anyway, about that. I've learned since then.

1:06:54 Speaker 1 Wow. It's like Bar Mitzvah Maimer, Chassan Maimer?

1:06:57 Speaker 3 No, I did a few in between, quite a few in between. But, uh, I haven't had opportunity since then. But, uh, but anyway, anyway-

1:07:04 Speaker 1 I could talk to like a boy in some 70 if you want. We could read Shabbos afternoon.

1:07:08 Speaker 3 I, I don't live here. I don't live here. And I'm not yet past... I'm not yet at my midlife crisis. That's when you start doing it again. But no, no, it was a, it was a... Yeah, anyway, it's, it's, it's a special idea to Chazut Maimer. But, um, th- there's a more direct kind of back and forth that goes to your point where, um, Veasav Mikdash Chanti B'seicham, and then the, in the, in the original Basili Gani, Tzadikim Mishar Zishkan Al Ha'adeleah. And the Rebbe goes back and forth between the years of, is the Mishkan something that comes through Moshe and then everybody does it?

1:07:44 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:07:44 Speaker 3 Or is it something that everybody-

1:07:45 Speaker 1 This year, I think it was the... Remember, there was this, there was a deal in the Maimer this year.

1:07:48 Speaker 3 Right, right.

1:07:48 Speaker 1 That was a bit different than other years.

1:07:50 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:50 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

1:07:50 Speaker 3 There's a, it, it reformulates a lot of times.

1:07:53 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:07:53 Speaker 3 Is the Mishkan that you build a Mishkan that is built on the shoulders or as a continuation of the Rebbe's Mishkan, or is it your own Mishkan? So I, I think, I think it, it's only fair to accept your basic idea that, that, that yes, there is a, there is a tension that's introduced immediately when, when you, when you take a Maimer like Basili Gani- And you, and you take it from being about showing up to davening and shurem, which are important things, but are things that people are shy to in a very obvious way, and you start talking about him- himosh zachin, right? And, and like, like, like, like, like, uh, historic ideas. Yeah.

1:08:33 Speaker 1 Oh, I'm gonna call it himosh zachin. Uh, it- it's himosh zachin is, is nice and ruchni, I'm saying. You mean the magnitude there.

1:08:39 Speaker 3 Shamayim baratz.

1:08:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:08:40 Speaker 3 Yishchin baratz is taking-

1:08:41 Speaker 1 Words aren't you. Yeah

1:08:42 Speaker 3 ... taking, taking the heavens into the earth and right? And, and, and, and like when, when you, when you go to daven and you go to learn, you know that you... what you, what you set out to accomplish, you accomplished. I went to minyan, and I had a Okay. I- do you know about this? So y- y- Rabbi Soloveitchik, I think this was right after the Six Day War. I think it was, it was after, I think it was after... It was one, certainly after one of the wars, it was after Six Day War. And Rabbi Soloveitchik, Kedarke, r- you know, said, uh, 'cause this was a recor- it's a written down of what something that he spoke. But yeah, a beautiful poetic idea of called the different knocks of the Aberster and, and, and, you know, the, the mixture of, of, of, of, of, of, of Nigla and Medrash and-

1:10:10 Speaker 1 Right. Right

1:10:10 Speaker 3 ... oh, yeah, the way he can do it. And, and then philosophy and all the words and everything. Beautiful, beautiful idea of how the Aberster right now is knocking on our door. It's clear the Aberster is knocking on our door telling us. And then what does, what's the bakash at the end?

1:10:24 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:10:25 Speaker 3 The bakash in the end is that you guys are spending all your money on retirement homes in Miami and then vacation Miami. You should give $180 or something to

1:10:34 Speaker 1 At the end of the day, it was a sales pitch. It was a-

1:10:38 Speaker 3 No, no, I-

1:10:38 Speaker 1 ... a fundraising

1:10:39 Speaker 3 ... I don't mean it that way. If I care, I think, I-

1:10:40 Speaker 1 Right. What, what's the tangible-

1:10:42 Speaker 3 I think-

1:10:42 Speaker 1 ... practical application of it?

1:10:45 Speaker 3 He was someone who understood his audience-

1:10:46 Speaker 1 Right

1:10:46 Speaker 3 ... and he understood he's not getting them now to get aroused and have a year and to, and to upend their lives and even make Aliya Eretz Yisroel. Now, you know, you, you see how much they, how much, how much God loves, has shown his love to Bnei Yisroel and to Eretz Yisroel. Give a little bit. I know what I can ask of you, I'm gonna ask you of that.

1:11:05 Speaker 1 Right.

1:11:06 Speaker 3 And in many ways, that's the normal thing to do. That's a reasonable thing to do. You ask people something that you-

1:11:11 Speaker 1 Yes

1:11:11 Speaker 3 ... right? If somebody comes to you and asks you-

1:11:13 Speaker 1 In Yivakhah, Soloveitchik, right?

1:11:14 Speaker 3 Right. If somebody comes and asks you for a donation of, you know, you're, you're a regular person, "It's an important cause. Can you give $180?" I'll consider it. "Can you give a million dollars?" You're nuts. Get, get lost, right? Like I... It's not... I can't even think, begin thinking about that, so I don't think about it at all.

1:11:29 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:11:29 Speaker 3 And, and here it's like, I'm gonna ask you. So there's no question that, that, that is there. My only question would be, or my... I don't know if it's a disagreement or where, where I, where I would, where I would push back, where I would see differently-

1:11:42 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:11:42 Speaker 3 ... is that, like, you, you're, you're, you're many ways you're saying that Basili Gani, even in hindsight, is, is has to be seen that, that basically the whole Labavich ki- this whole idea of the rabbi taking responsibility, um, you know, there's a shift from before and there's this new tkufa. Like, I look at Basili Gani and I don't see that. I mean, I just... When I just learned it, and it could be I'm looking it through my own lenses, but I look at it-

1:12:11 Speaker 1 Right. But look, it, it's not-

1:12:12 Speaker 3 I'm saying I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's native to the text. I, I, like, like, the, the „Ein HaDavar Torah Al Banu." The Rebbe's talking about , "Chayav L'imer Maaseh Giyum Maaseh." Who's he talking about? Himself? He's talking about the people around him.

1:12:26 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Look, but I think it's important. I'm not just saying Basili Gani in, uh, without context.

1:12:31 Speaker 3 Right.

1:12:31 Speaker 1 Open any of Tafshin, Yod Tafshin, Yod Alef-

1:12:34 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:34 Speaker 1 ... the egress of those years, followed by Shlichas, which is about a few years later in the late Yods. Um, who, who were the, who were the f- f- the people in the, in the front that were troubled by Shlichas and were sort of getting in the way, as the Rebbe put it, of the Rebbe sending out Shlichim?

1:12:52 Speaker 3 Right.

1:12:53 Speaker 1 The Chassidim.

1:12:54 Speaker 3 The older-

1:12:54 Speaker 1 The older Chassidim, right?

1:12:55 Speaker 3 Right.

1:12:56 Speaker 1 They weren't bad people, right? So there's also narrative, you know, growing up, yeah, yeah, yeah, the people fighting the Rebbe and all.

1:13:02 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:13:03 Speaker 1 It's... Right. There was no question a major shift happened. These people went through a lot. But what the Rebbe was asking for, for taking young elite, taking young elite and young women with, with nothing. Like, what do they have? And sending them in middle of nowhere-

1:13:18 Speaker 3 Right

1:13:18 Speaker 1 ... and to, they themselves should be strong in their Yiddishkeit, and they should bring Yiddishkeit and be, to the people and be mechanech their kids that way, without parnasah, without, without anything. It wasn't, it wasn't part of the script. And mind you, this didn't come like we have shift to the Tzmartzik. It was already was the Frieda Rebbe. We did Mesires Nefesh already for a Doyer in Russia, and we were opening undergr- underground chadarim.

1:13:39 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:40 Speaker 1 But it wasn't in this context of just entering the secular world on your own.

1:13:45 Speaker 3 Right.

1:13:45 Speaker 1 And so, so w- so you know, it was... I don't need a Basili Gani, I don't need a Maimon, I don't need a Sikha. The reality is that a major shift happened. And the Rebbe using, uh, L'shonas at times that were even... Right, the Rebbe would challenge even the Nefsha B'kis. Right? When the Rebbe is not reading a bit of Hamos, this was a bit of Nefsha B'kis.

1:14:03 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:04 Speaker 1 Or mainly you wanna daven and you wanna learn, that's your taivas.

1:14:09 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:10 Speaker 1 It's like wh- wh- where, where's that language from? Like, this is the issue of people.

1:14:14 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:14 Speaker 1 Like you're talking to American kids, their issue is they have a taivat to daven and learn and, and, a- a- and, a- and, uh, lose themselves in IMBs.

1:14:20 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:14:20 Speaker 1 There was no IMBs around those days yet, but like, really? That's the issue? Yeah. Uh, but what has to be Negiah is the Rotz Mhashem. In, in, uh, we go back to Basili Gani. In Basili Gani, the Rebbe brings the two, a family of Mesires Nefesh, right? So the Rebbe doesn't really connect it, but

1:14:37 Speaker 3 You say, you, uh, just, just, just explain. You're talking about Mesires Nefesh of Rabbi Kive-

1:14:40 Speaker 1 Of Rabbi Kive and-

1:14:42 Speaker 3 That seeks it out and Rav Romino-

1:14:44 Speaker 1 They seeks, uh, right, they seeks it out. And then Rav Romino doesn't look for Mesires Nefesh. Whatever has to be done is done.

1:14:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:49 Speaker 1 So the Rebbe brings it from the Maimer when the first Maimarim Frieda Rebbe said when he came to America, the Boyel America, the Pamashnia.

1:14:54 Speaker 3 Right.

1:14:55 Speaker 1 Which is itself a very interesting thing. You see in multiple Maimarim, including in Mogedigim Maimarim, you see this in the Loket. The Rebbe doesn't just bring dates to talk about dates of a Maimer. When-- But the Rebbe had a chavivus for Maimarim of Tafshin, the Maimarim that were said, the first Maimarim that were said in America.

1:15:09 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:10 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe was mesiyachas to them as the Maimarim, Shenemru, the Boyel Artza Sabriz, the Pamashnia, shnia or al manas lod," in order to live here. Right. Like these were the ma'amarim, these are American ma'amarim. It's the American chassidus. Interesting. And a lot of great ideas that the Rebbe speaks about, and some of them are so intuitive to us as Der Yush Chassidim, the Rebbe was meyasd on those ma'amarim. And it see-- And, uh, for bring is Rebbe once, uh, there was-- a few times spoke about that in those ma'amarim is like the Pesach HaTzair. It's the Pesach, Reb Shimon of Chassidus in America. So one of the big points is the difference between Rebbe, uh, Rebbe Akiva and Avraham Avinu. When you think about it, in a way, Der Hashishi was the mesirus nefesh of Rebbe Akiva. Right. Right? You had the Rebbe, Yid, and chaparaim mesirus nefesh. Right. 'Cause one day- Right ... you'll look back and say, "Where do I get more of this? I, I wish I had mesirus nefesh." Like, so, so you're asking-- So he's actually asking us to want mesirus nefesh. Right. That was-- And it was like even, and especially in Ohel, this is like became the language before you are in the Part of it was we have this massive mission that has to be done. Where think about right now what's going on in Eretz Yisrael.

1:21:08 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:08 Speaker 1 There's a massive war, and hundreds of thousands of people going to Miluim in Eretz Yisrael and flying in from elsewhere, leaving their homes for six months-

1:21:17 Speaker 4 Right

1:21:17 Speaker 1 ... seven months, eight months. That's not crazy. You know, there's gonna be a... Then there will still be, if we'll still be in Galus, there's gonna be a seriously traumatized generation, and not just from October 7th, from their p- their parent, their fathers being out-

1:21:30 Speaker 4 Right

1:21:31 Speaker 1 ... uh, for months and coming back bruised and coming a-and the m- We hear, three soldiers died.

1:21:36 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:37 Speaker 1 And another, by the way, another 20 are injured in different ways.

1:21:39 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:40 Speaker 1 Some of these injuries are, are disastrous, right? And, a-and therefore what? So we don't have to fight for our survival, right? But when there's a mission, there's a mission.

1:21:48 Speaker 4 Oh, no. I'm not, I'm not even-

1:21:49 Speaker 1 So, so-

1:21:49 Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. No.

1:21:49 Speaker 1 Right. So part of it, so part of it, yeah. The, it, it... Everything in this world has a price. Even the-

1:21:55 Speaker 4 100%

1:21:56 Speaker 1 ... you know, e-even the most holy endeavors, everything will come with a certain price. And part of it was, you call it a calculation, you call it, um, the, the mission of the day. This is the mission of the day. This is what has to be done. And yeah. A-and there, and at times there were... You know, and you had, you see this in Igros, where people tell the Rebbe they've put on 40 people to fill. The Rebbe was like, "Why 40? Why not 400?" Or something like that.

1:22:17 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:18 Speaker 1 And, and then the person writes to the Rebbe that he's feeling all down-

1:22:22 Speaker 4 Right

1:22:22 Speaker 1 ... and all dejected by the response. And the Rebbe responds and says, "Chas v'Shalom, the point of the response wasn't you should feel dejected. It was more to give you a boost." Now, that didn't just happen once. You see many times in Igros and from letters to the Rebbe, you see that people took the response in that way.

1:22:36 Speaker 4 Right.

1:22:37 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe continued responding that way. And-

1:22:41 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:22:41 Speaker 1 And, and, and obviously, the Rebbe's not here to mitzayer any Yid in any which way, and it came from above. But the, the, the message doesn't change. That's the Rebbe's message to the world.

1:22:54 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:22:54 Speaker 1 And at times it's hard for us to handle. And I know, and, and I think f-part of, you know, what's go-go- the last few years, we might have left that message a bit due to fear and due to also who's on the, who's in that position to be able to speak to people that way.

1:23:10 Speaker 4 Right.

1:23:10 Speaker 1 When the Rebbe speaks that way, it's the Rebbe speaking that way. Um, but the Rebbe's, that is the Rebbe's message, and yeah, and at times it's hard to swallow. The Rebbe's messages aren't always, um, lovey-dovey, and they're not always, uh, cute and, and, and inspiring and, uh, and self-helpless. They're, they're very-

1:23:29 Speaker 4 No, they're, they're never-

1:23:30 Speaker 1 They're a pressure cooker.

1:23:30 Speaker 4 They're never. They're n- you said they're not always. They're never that.

1:23:33 Speaker 1 No, there are, there are geschmacke. There's a geschmacke in Yohnen, there's a sicha you could learn, there's a, that gives you a-

1:23:38 Speaker 4 When you, when you, when you let it-

1:23:39 Speaker 1 See, that's also a, what you call the feminized version of the

1:23:42 Speaker 4 When you let it rip-

1:23:43 Speaker 1 Right

1:23:43 Speaker 4 ... right? When you let it rip and you, you, you, you take it for what the Rebbe's saying, it's never-- You're never getting away with an $18 check to, or $180 check to some foundation in Israel. That never ever happens, right?

1:23:57 Speaker 1 In the, in the earlier years when the Rebbe would do at times, uh, fundraisers, appeals during Farbrengen, and the guy picks up his hand, he's giving, uh, five times Chai. "Tzemach Azrai Phil." What's Tzemach? What, what does Tzemach Azrai Phil mean? It's also what was money in those days.

1:24:12 Speaker 4 Right.

1:24:12 Speaker 1 The guy's giving eight, $180. Tzemach Azrai. You know what Tzemach Azrai $480 is?

1:24:16 Speaker 4 Eh.

1:24:16 Speaker 1 Even today, someone tell you, you in shuls, "Oh, uh, 10 times, uh, 10 times much." I don't have that money.

1:24:20 Speaker 4 Right.

1:24:21 Speaker 1 And it was always, yeah, it was always more. So it was two things. Number one, if you're there or not, that's the filste ya and the filste nisht, first day's ya, first day's nisht. The, the mission has to be done. That was number one. But another point is the Rebbe takes, sees in every single person unbelievable and unlimited potential, and the Rebbe saw us way bigger than we are. But not always did we see ourselves that way. Ov emeilo when you live up to that expectation, but you don't buy into the, that sense of self, that can also create a certain friction and a certain-

1:24:51 Speaker 4 Yeah. Look, um, you, you said, you, you, you said, you said, uh, y-you, you said before that the fact that, the fact that, uh, that, that sometimes, sometimes what the Rebbe says is not going to make you feel good about yourself, and there-- But that shouldn't be a, I, I... That shouldn't be a reason not, not to, uh, not, not to say what, what, what is true. I mean, I agree with that 100%. I, I, I, the, the argument for me at least is never that, that because, because the Rebbe's demands were at the, at, at the line of impossible, if not beyond that, the Rebbe was asking of people something that fundamentally was out of their grasp. Acknowledging that is, is not to say, "Oh, you see? It was be-- It's impossible. Leave it alone." It's, you know... Or, "Because people are not up to it, because it makes people feel small, leave it alone." Fuck it. I don't think you have to go in either of those directions. I, I don't think you have to discard it or to sugarcoat it. You have to c- you have to, at the very beginning, acknowledge what it is. See, a lot of times when you come to kind of understanding a phenomenon, understanding a, a, a problem, right? You're already thinking a step ahead and you're saying, "Well, if I interpret it this way, what is it going to mean for me? What is it going to mean for that person? And because I know

1:26:15 Speaker 4 that if I go down that road, I'm gonna end up there, I don't wanna end up there, so therefore I'm not gonna go down that road and I'm gonna contort myself and go somewhere else."

1:26:23 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:26:23 Speaker 4 Right? No. This, if this is the road that we understand, if this, if this is what makes sense, that the Rebbe was demanding the impossible, then go down that road and see where it leads us. Okay? Don't, don't try to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you know, retrace your steps and, "Oh, maybe we can... Nah, he didn't really mean it that way. He meant it somewhere else." Or, "Eh, you know..." No, this is what... Okay. So n- so now we acknowledge that the Rebbe was asking the impossible. What does that mean? What does that mean? What, what, what are the, what are the ramifications of that? You know, and so if, if it makes people feel small, I don't think that means we go back and say that's, that wasn't true in the first place. I think we try to understand How are we supposed to live with those two things true at the same time, right? There's no point in having people feel small in, in an unhealthy way. Small in a healthy way, of course, humility is great, but small in a dispiriting, disempowering way is the opposite of, is the opposite of Yiddishkeit. So that's obviously not what the Rebbe wanted.

1:27:25 Speaker 1 Right.

1:27:25 Speaker 4 And he, he also didn't speak that way. So he obviously didn't want people to feel, uh, demoralized and, and just like, like pathetic, right? But, but how can you feel not small, right? Chodesh hamachat.

1:27:38 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:27:38 Speaker 4 You wanna make an impact on the wor- world and, and at the same time understand that the Rebbe's not working within your kind of expectations or understanding of yourself, but talking about something much larger than you. How does that work, right? I, I think, I think step one is, is, is to understand what's at play here instead of trying to, you know, push one way or another. "Oh, it's making people feel small. We have to, we have to revisit it. Oh, it's too..." You know, it's... Or people, you know, "Let, let, let's, let, let's, let's push it harder," or, or, "Let's just insist that no, if the Rebbe said it that way, that's all that there is to it, and the fact that people feel small, who cares about them?" You know, you know, these are the words of Moshe Rabbeinu and, and-

1:28:17 Speaker 1 Right

1:28:17 Speaker 4 ... Gay Fifen. I think either way you're, you're, you're, you're, you're worried about where you're going to end up in this process of understanding, and so you're, you're discarding what's in front of your eyes, right? The Rebbe, the Rebbe wanted people... The, the Rebbe spoke about the massive responsibility that each individual has, and the Rebbe also at the same time spoke about people not becoming demoralized. Those are two truths. Okay? Go deal with it.

1:28:45 Speaker 1 Right.

1:28:45 Speaker 4 You know, the... So, so I-I... My point was never to say that, that, you know, because people might feel dispirited, therefore it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, that can't be what the Rebbe ever said. No, fakert. I, I think f- I think that's exactly the point. That, that is what the Rebbe said. That is what the Rebbe said. That, that, that, that is the, the gag of what the Rebbe spoke about, and I think in many ways that is, that is where the conversation has to begin. You know, it... 'Cause you're talking about, you're talking about the... You t- you talked about the shock of Gmar Tammuz or the shock of Chavzei Noar. And in the course of this conversation, what I'm picking up on is the shock of Yud Shvat 5708.

1:29:31 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:29:31 Speaker 4 All of that, right, all of that traces back to then.

1:29:34 Speaker 1 'Cause how can Yud Shvat exist in the vacuum of Gmar Tammuz? Or it, it, what it does is, is that it... Oh, so it's-

1:29:41 Speaker 4 No, fakert. No, fakert

1:29:42 Speaker 1 ... fa- Yeah, I get it.

1:29:42 Speaker 4 Fakert. Gmar, Gmar Tammuz, the reason people were at a place where, where they were, where they were-

1:29:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, the shock of Gmar Tammuz, I, I wasn't around Yud Shvat, Gmar Tammuz, I was a kid, but and I would assume the shock of Gmar Tammuz in certain degree was a greater shock than Yud Shvat and, uh, Beis Nissan.

1:30:01 Speaker 4 No, no, you're misunderstanding me. Not Tov Shnu- Tov Shnu Dalet.

1:30:06 Speaker 1 Right. But what I'm saying is because of Yud Shvat Tov Shnu Dalet-

1:30:09 Speaker 4 Ah

1:30:09 Speaker 1 ... so the Gmar Tammuz creates a bigger shock than other, than other such days.

1:30:15 Speaker 4 Right.

1:30:15 Speaker 1 But not only because then there was a Mamshich.

1:30:18 Speaker 4 Right.

1:30:19 Speaker 1 But also because what, what Rebbe meant to us was, in a way, much deeper and much more intense than it, than it meant in previous Doros.

1:30:29 Speaker 4 Right. Right. Exactly. When, when... As you're explaining it, that, that in Tov Shnu Dalet, the Rebbe set up a situation where, where, where the Hasidim are expected to, to, to be involved in something that generally speaking was left-

1:30:44 Speaker 1 It's a Rebbe

1:30:44 Speaker 4 ... to the, to the, to the-

1:30:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:30:45 Speaker 4 ... Rebbe, to the Tzadikim, and maybe some select Hasidim.

1:30:48 Speaker 1 Right.

1:30:48 Speaker 4 Right? But now everyone's being brought into it. That was the shock, and that is-

1:30:53 Speaker 1 Yes

1:30:53 Speaker 4 ... that remains the shock.

1:30:54 Speaker 1 Yes.

1:30:54 Speaker 4 Now, what's the point of pointing out which shock it is? Because I think that is a shock that is worth living with. That's not a shock that demoralizes you, or a shock that confuses you, or like you said earlier, disorients you. That's, that's a very positive shock, right? The way, in general, I don't know if you agree with this, but the way... What time is it? Oh. I have to get going soon. The, the way, the way I understand, the way I understand, um, the way I understand, like, this whole story that you're, this whole picture that we're painting here is not that, not that Rebbe's talking to the void and just talking to people that weren't shach to it. You know, I... In many ways, the way I see it is, and, you know, maybe, maybe it's just, uh, it's, it's, it's very, very homespun and, and, and, you know, and, and, and... But the Rebbe, the Rebbe knew that one way or another, there wasn't going to be another Rebbe after him. I mean, everybody-

1:31:57 Speaker 1 Clear. Yeah

1:31:57 Speaker 4 ... everybody knew that, but-

1:31:58 Speaker 1 Right

1:31:58 Speaker 4 ... clearly, he knew that too, right?

1:32:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:32:01 Speaker 4 And so I'm going to say what needs to be said, and one day or at some point, either today or tomorrow, and probably not, but probably in forty, fifty, sixty, seventy years from now, those words will begin to be understood, right? There... At some point, like, it is also very clear in Basile Yoni, at some point it becomes Right. But they'll catch up at some point. Why am I... Whether or not... You know, I don't know if you agree with that analysis, but- Why, why am I even bringing it up? Because at least to me, that's a wa- one way of interpreting the shock of Yut Zvat. Right? W- how do I make sense of this, of this, of this, of this dirshvi idea? And how do I make sense of, of the contradictions of it? I understand that there's something very big at play here, and I have to catch up to it. I have to make sense of it. But that's the point. The point is I have to make sense of it.

1:33:38 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

1:33:38 Speaker 4 You know what I'm saying? As oppo- as opposed to, as opposed to, like, you know, as opposed to a very negative thing of like a betrayal and sh- and, and loss and, and it's, it's something when, you know, just s- it's, it's not the way it's supposed to be and I have to figure out a way how to... You know what I'm saying?

1:33:56 Speaker 1 Right. But, but I think all this, it sets up the clincher, which is the, the, the final point I was trying to bring to. So, so what was the message then? Right. So what's the message of, of Chaf Ches Nissan or Purim Im Zion or all, or all those sichas? And I think what the Rebbe was saying then is like this: So for 40 years, the way we understood how to handle that leap, right? We're, we're thrown, we're thrown into the special forces all of a sudden, you know, go there in Gaza and figure out what you, what you have to do. The way it was done is, you know, from being a regular citizen all somewhere on the front lines is, right, surrender your will and your mind to, to the Rebbe.

1:34:43 Speaker 4 Right.

1:34:43 Speaker 1 Right? Where it's basically the Rebbe will tell you what to do, and you're the foot soldiers, and you're gonna go out there and conquer the world. So the big picture, the CEO, the commander-in-chief, that's the Rebbe. And then there's a bunch of foot soldiers, Anshei Chayil is, is big Ziman Elu Baser Legani, right? The people actually out there on the field-

1:35:00 Speaker 4 Right

1:35:00 Speaker 1 ... doing what you have to do, and you're able to do great things because you're, you're not a Sagab Eonok literally. You're at-- you're following orders. Now the Rebbe comes and says, "Now will be leap number two." Right? The first leap was from just doing Hasid Havraida, you're now gonna do Rebbe Sheini on him by following what the Rebbe tells you. But now come to the next stage. The next stage is now you're gonna enter my office, right? Now it's not just I'm giving out orders, now you have to buy into the mission itself.

1:35:37 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:35:37 Speaker 1 To the big picture. Not just live up, 'cause until now the, the resolution, if you may, the, the way we can live on, on such a high level is by doing simple things.

1:35:49 Speaker 4 Being part of the army.

1:35:50 Speaker 1 Being part of the army.

1:35:51 Speaker 4 Right.

1:35:52 Speaker 1 Now all of a sudden, what are we doing? Now, G'dolim Nasu Tiyashim, to quote the Yechidas. Right now all of a sudden, right, uh, uh, what the Rebbe would use a lot language those years, especially with Tuv Shin Nun and on, Kol Yinish Adai Tzedek Rebbe. Right. Kol Yinish Adai Tzedek Rebbe. Kol Yinish Adai Tzedek Rebbe is not knowing how many Mivtzoim there are-

1:36:10 Speaker 4 Right

1:36:10 Speaker 1 ... and how many Yiddin you put on tefillin. Of course, you do that. It's, it's buying in.

1:36:15 Speaker 4 Right.

1:36:16 Speaker 1 Forty years the Rebbe is giving us Rebbe vision.

1:36:19 Speaker 4 Right.

1:36:20 Speaker 1 And now you guys w- will do that.

1:36:22 Speaker 4 Right.

1:36:24 Speaker 1 Now, this, this was already too much. C- you're, you're telling me to, to, to suspend myself-

1:36:35 Speaker 4 Right

1:36:35 Speaker 1 ... and give myself over to something greater than myself. I could do that. But now you're telling me to be a different person.

1:36:41 Speaker 4 Right.

1:36:41 Speaker 1 Right now you're saying that Hasids, Hoshi Atalamer, Hoshi Arab, now you're saying that we have to buy into the Rebbe's model a- and to the Rebbe's vision. A- and, and, and the biggest of all, the biggest vision of all is Gulah. Right? They're just kind of learning Yonagulu Mashiach. It's not just another Mivtza to, to read another Sif or two and, and to get, and to get some orange juice. Yeah.

1:37:00 Speaker 4 It's to see why I'm excited about it. You should be excited as, as... See why I'm excited about it.

1:37:04 Speaker 1 For 10 years they were screaming, "Feh ring is Admosai" and every Feh ring and we're, we're, we're screaming at Leon, "We want Mashiach now" was a loud blame Feh ring and we're for an hour and a half they saying, "We want Mashiach now."

1:37:13 Speaker 4 Right.

1:37:13 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe's saying, "It's all... You, you completely missed the point."

1:37:15 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:37:15 Speaker 1 Right? Was that what I was doing, it wasn't that the Rebbe wants Mashiach. Okay, so the Rebbe wants... Right? But that was the, the reason we reacted that way, 'cause we, we didn't have any other frame of reference. How could I care about Mashiach-

1:37:25 Speaker 4 When the Rebbe-

1:37:25 Speaker 1 ... which is something so massive.

1:37:26 Speaker 4 Right.

1:37:27 Speaker 1 The only way we could do that is the Rebbe wants Mashiach, so we're with you.

1:37:31 Speaker 4 Right.

1:37:31 Speaker 1 If the Rebbe would say tomorrow, "We don't need Mashiach", I'm saying, "Ach, but bachlav, if you ask me, we wouldn't want Mashiach bachlav. We're doing just fine here in Zim Seven."

1:37:37 Speaker 4 Right.

1:37:37 Speaker 1 Right? Mashiach is just, is more people in, in the soul. Bachlav, I really need my bubbe to come back and, and breathe down my ba- uh, my... Yeah, so.

1:37:45 Speaker 4 Well, a lot of people have a misconception about the Tchiya HaMetim. They think only the people they want to come back. No, no, everybody comes back. And the majority are people that you don't want.

1:37:55 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. Yes. So... A- and that was a, and that what the Rebbe was saying is, "No, the, the... What I really want with all, all those Hoyros and all those Sichas and all those Mamaryim all along was", and in retrospect, this is talking the mission from Tuv Shin Yud, Yud Aleph, but perhaps we weren't able to handle it then. The way to handle it then was just by, you know, being quiet, listening, and following. But now we're saying, "No, you all have to buy in, and you all have to assume responsibility." Not responsibility 'cause I told you to.

1:38:31 Speaker 4 Right.

1:38:31 Speaker 1 Right? Because if you start screaming Ad Mosai, it's like, it's like when you see the video, it's unbelievable. The Rebbe's speaking about if you say Ad Mosai, it's between Penai Atzivi and literally right after the Sicha they all start saying Ad Mosai. Right? So you would ask them, they would tell you, everyone that was there, it wasn't Penai Atzivi.

1:38:45 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:38:45 Speaker 1 We did it because we were all inspired now. But the Rebbe was saying, "Yeah, but that inspiration itself is an inspiration from the Sicha, right? You're just uninspired by the frustration."

1:38:53 Speaker 4 I don't think there was a way out, frankly.

1:38:54 Speaker 1 Right. No, a- and you can't. That's the thing, 'cause you're coming from perspec- so many years and living in the Rebbe's shadow, in the Rebbe's Adam, it's in a positive sense. Like that was it. You were living in, in, in, in the shadow of greatness, and you were becoming great. But the way you were becoming great was by just being in that shadow and not sticking out.

1:39:11 Speaker 4 Right.

1:39:12 Speaker 1 And all of a sudden the Rebbe tells you, "Take ownership." Right? The Rebbe starts speaking about Shlichus. Also the Rebbe starts speaking about Shlichus differently. From Shlichus just being three dargas in Bital to Mishaleach, now this raft are becoming Bital, the, that the Shliah has a Mitzvah. It's not only Bital, it's also the-

1:39:26 Speaker 4 Right

1:39:26 Speaker 1 ... he's not an Evid.

1:39:27 Speaker 4 Right.

1:39:27 Speaker 1 He's a Shliah. And all of a sudden we're like, one, one thing, but that, but that's what we've not been doing for 40 years. We've been pushing that on the side. We were, we're not the Der Shishi guys. We're not the pre-- We're not the guys who are sitting on working on themselves and building their personality and their ideas. It was about putting aside, it was Batal Retzo Yicham Et Pnei Retzo, you know? And now all of a sudden we're being told, Aser Etzo Yinchak Retzo Ynah.

1:39:49 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:39:50 Speaker 1 And that, and that was very, very tough. Right? 'Cause partly you could say it's about assuming responsibility. Our grandparents didn't assume responsibility. Our Zaydes didn't sit in prison for, uh, for, for, for opening Chadarim. Like, what's the, what's the big message?

1:40:02 Speaker 4 No, but-

1:40:03 Speaker 1 Right? And, and then it starts to come like for 40 years in Dirshvi we're a bunch of kids that were within assume responsibility. People opened up big Moises, right?

1:40:08 Speaker 4 It's a different kind of responsibility.

1:40:09 Speaker 1 Oh, that's the Vark.

1:40:10 Speaker 4 Responsibility, I think you have to be Matkes. Responsibility is to make... have-- Responsibility is that I'm responsible to make a move, even if it's a wrong move and even if it's a mistake. That didn't, that responsibility, that didn't exist before because before, if they ever told you to do something, you knew what you was doing.

1:40:29 Speaker 1 And so what's right because we weren't in that position. We weren't in the boardroom, right?

1:40:33 Speaker 4 Right.

1:40:33 Speaker 1 We were, we were on this level.

1:40:34 Speaker 4 No, but I'm saying responsibility, there are different kinds of responsibility. There's responsibility of I, I, I, I'm responsible for this organization. I'm responsible for building this building. I'm responsible for the-

1:40:45 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:40:45 Speaker 4 ... the, the mikveh in this underground town.

1:40:47 Speaker 1 Yes, yes.

1:40:48 Speaker 4 Right? But then there's a responsibility of the decision I made in the first place. That's what's changed.

1:40:55 Speaker 1 That's what's really going on shlichus.

1:40:56 Speaker 4 Yeah, that's what's change, that's what's changed. What's changed is not I'm responsible for the thing that's been given to me. The responsibility is for the thing that I have taken for m- for myself, right? And-

1:41:05 Speaker 1 Right. You're saying there's going on shlichus 'cause the Rebbe wants you going on shlichus, and the Rebbe's gonna smile, which is one level. And then there's I'm going on shlichus because I buy into the vision.

1:41:15 Speaker 4 Yeah, but, but, but open it up a little bit. Now that I'm on shl- In those days, if someone had an idea on shlichus, they wrote in, and they were told yes or no.

1:41:25 Speaker 1 Some years more than others, but yeah, that was, that was the model.

1:41:26 Speaker 4 I'm saying that's all, right?

1:41:27 Speaker 1 That's the model, right.

1:41:27 Speaker 4 No, and that changed with time.

1:41:28 Speaker 1 Yes, yeah.

1:41:29 Speaker 4 In the beginning it was more-

1:41:29 Speaker 1 More and more, right

1:41:30 Speaker 4 ... right. And now if someone has an idea, right, they don't, they don't get told yes or no. They can, you know, they can, they can, you know, piece of... A lot of people don't get told yes or no.

1:41:41 Speaker 1 Right.

1:41:41 Speaker 4 Right? No, but you know, you certainly don't get told yes or no the way you used to get told yes or no, okay? In a way that everyone else agrees that you got told yes or no, right? Okay. So, so now the responsibility is not just to go follow the order in the best possible way. The responsibility is to ta- make a move where you don't know if it's a right thing, but you, you have to now trust that you're doing it for the right reason. And maybe you're making a mistake. Maybe it's not kfi hakavanah.

1:42:06 Speaker 1 That's always a price of responsibility, right?

1:42:07 Speaker 4 But you're... Right.

1:42:07 Speaker 1 Right.

1:42:07 Speaker 4 But I think that's-

1:42:08 Speaker 1 That's the level of responsibility

1:42:08 Speaker 4 ... that's responsibility that you're talking about.

1:42:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:42:10 Speaker 4 'Cause that's different than running a big mosad. You could run a $10 million mosad, but making a $10 decision on your own is a different story.

1:42:18 Speaker 1 Right.

1:42:18 Speaker 4 Right? Me- me- the moral decision of the $10 c- could be a bigger moral responsibility than running a big mosad that, that you know for a fact i- it-

1:42:28 Speaker 1 Right. And that is something that I think I see, and probably you see it as well, and I think that today you see that more. You see people owning up to decisions-

1:42:38 Speaker 4 Right

1:42:38 Speaker 1 ... and you see people recognizing that some decisions are gonna be painful-

1:42:42 Speaker 4 Right

1:42:42 Speaker 1 ... and there's gonna be, and there's gonna be a price tag. And you can't always Rebbe it, meaning you can't just say, "The Rebbe told me," and, and, and, uh, and right? You, you have to own up to decision-making. Um, is it because people today are stronger? And again, I, I, like I said, there's just time does its thing. Arba'im shanim kol yesh d'rat Rebbe is a real thing. It ta- the Rebbe then spoke about arba'im shanim in Tav Shvanim, but, but there's arba'im shanim from that language, right? There's arba'im shanim from the Rebbe asking us to own it as well. Then there's obviously nothing could compare to standing in front of the Rav as he's telling you it.

1:43:14 Speaker 4 Right.

1:43:14 Speaker 1 But then there's the truth of arba'im shanim. It's just time. It's ideas sitting. It's reality giving you messages.

1:43:23 Speaker 4 Well, in many ways, in many ways, um, it's bigger than sitting in front of the Rav. You know, it, it depends how you're looking at it. If you're looking at it in terms of the experience, the experience is more powerful when you're in front of the Rav. But in that idea of arba'im shanim, right, it... When, when is it most meaningful? When is it most impactful? It's 40 years later, right? When you're sitting in front of the Rav, you're-

1:43:50 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:43:50 Speaker 4 ... you're, you're batel b'tachlis. That's the whole point, is you're, you're, you're not a thing. You're just open.

1:43:55 Speaker 1 Right.

1:43:55 Speaker 4 It's pure reception.

1:43:57 Speaker 1 Right.

1:43:57 Speaker 4 But, but in a way, but who needs that? The Rav already had the idea, and he, he needs someone else to, to hear the idea. What's it gonna gain? No, no. The point is that in 40 years, he has a Talmud. That idea now is secure. That idea now can be taught to the next person. Until that 40 years, that, that idea-

1:44:13 Speaker 1 True, true

1:44:13 Speaker 4 ... can never be taught again.

1:44:14 Speaker 1 But, but remember, it's g'dolim nasu et yosif. You don't have the g'dolim-

1:44:18 Speaker 4 I understand

1:44:18 Speaker 1 ... meaning, meaning without the, the 40 years of c- the, the complete dedication-

1:44:23 Speaker 4 Right

1:44:23 Speaker 1 ... that, that happened then, there was no way that we could figure out what it is now, right? You're never gonna have-

1:44:28 Speaker 4 Uh, yeah

1:44:28 Speaker 1 ... Amazon started in a, in a garage, right?

1:44:31 Speaker 4 I'm not... I-

1:44:32 Speaker 1 Right

1:44:32 Speaker 4 ... look, I, again, I don't think-

1:44:33 Speaker 1 Right

1:44:33 Speaker 4 ... I don't think, I don't... I, I, look, I, I think what's nice about this conversation is you can look and, and I often do look at like, okay, Lubavitch lost its mind for 40 years, maybe for good reasons, but they lost their mind. They went way too far in this kind of how- halten zich zum klampge idea and like just lost, pashut lost their mind, lost their s- lost their identity, everything, and they got a massive tzet as a result, bigger than it needed to be. It was going to be big, but bigger than it needed to be, begeim ha-tamos, and now people are waking up to... That's one, that's a more s- uh, I don't know if the word cynical, but a more kind of a more critical way of looking at it.

1:45:16 Speaker 1 Right.

1:45:16 Speaker 4 Okay?

1:45:17 Speaker 1 Right.

1:45:17 Speaker 4 Um, I think cynical is to say that that bachah didn't happen, and why are you even talking about this? That to me is cynical. Like it's-

1:45:22 Speaker 1 Right. People are going to say it was always a way to bekayach atma, you know, and-

1:45:25 Speaker 4 Or, or like, vos, vos this to a cup-

1:45:27 Speaker 1 If you just heard something from somebody, but it's not really what was going on.

1:45:29 Speaker 4 Right. No, cynical is more like-

1:45:31 Speaker 1 Right

1:45:31 Speaker 4 ... what are you even talking about? Why is it even a, a problem?

1:45:33 Speaker 1 Ah, ah.

1:45:33 Speaker 4 Right? Like, as if it's not relevant.

1:45:35 Speaker 1 Right.

1:45:35 Speaker 4 No, no. It's, it's a critical way of looking at it, but I think the way you're casting it, the way I'm understanding it is, no, this, this is in many ways inevitable. When, when the Rebbe was going to come, and one reason or another, we'll never know exactly what he was thinking. I, I proposed earlier a theory, but it's just a theory, right? The Rebbe, the Rebbe came and said, "Look, from now on, Lubavitch is going to talk in final terms- I, I'm going to talk not in, in, in incremental, how we get a little bit further. We're gonna talk now ab-- like ge'ul tzedek language. How do we get to the finish line? However long it takes, but we're talking in fi- in final total terms now, right? That language created a shock, whether it maybe at that time people were elated, they were thrilled.

1:46:22 Speaker 1 Right.

1:46:23 Speaker 4 But it created a shock to the system of now people had to live up to an expectation that they were not used to. They had to live up to a responsibility that they were not used to. They had to live up to a responsibility that was fundamentally above them. And for 40 years, like you explained, one of the ways they dealt with that was basically saying, "Okay, you know what? Fine. We'll just take orders. You tell us where we're to be, we'll, we'll show up." Right? "That's how we're going to... This is how this team is going to work." And the understanding was that this Moshiach has to come because what happens when the general isn't here, right? But fundamentally, that was never the true foundation of the idea. The foundation of the idea was that, that each person has to be empowered to live up to a higher level, not just to follow orders, right? And so the shock happened at the beginning. It played out over the course of all the years that came after, right? So instead of looking at the, instead of looking at that era of people that lost their mind, s- it's looking at, it's looking at it at an era of people who were in the first stage, the, the inevitable first stage of this transition. And it was going... You know, maybe it didn't have to happen exactly the way it happened. Maybe there was... Not maybe, there were certainly embellishments in different directions, and people did

1:47:41 Speaker 4 do s- things that can be critiqued. But overall, there was an attempt to, to try to live up to this new standard, and it led people in that direction, and then there was a shock of Gimmel Tammuz. But that was really a, a, a continuation of the, of the f- foundational shock. So when we talk about why, why is it, why is it important to me? Because when we talk about Gimmel Tammuz, when we talk a- or we talk, f- we not only talk about the Gimmel Tammuz, when we talk about Lubavitch today, I think it's far more productive and far more healthy and far more useful to think about it as, as something that started in Yud Chei Tet Taf Shin Yud Dalet as opposed to something that started in Gimmel Tammuz Taf Shin Yud Dalet. Right? Whatever happened in Gimmel Tammuz Taf Shin Yud Dalet, in many ways is a continuation of what happened in Yud Chei Tet Taf Shin Yud Dalet. And of course, if you wanna go further back, it goes back to the Alter Rebbe, right? And to the Baal Shem Tov, and then eventually to Ma'amad Har Sinai. And, and, and the point of that is, is that it gives you something constructive and, and, and useful to work with as opposed to-

1:48:44 Speaker 1 Hundred percent. Right, and we're not just responding to, to a shock and we... Right. We, we, we always find a different defense mechanism.

1:48:51 Speaker 4 Right.

1:48:51 Speaker 1 Right. There's something... So, so let's go back to what we started, we were speaking about all the way in the beginning.

1:48:55 Speaker 4 Right.

1:48:55 Speaker 1 So I think part of the journey, I know for me and probably other people my age, and you might have it as well, just in different oysias, was that I think what we were being preached to the first 10 years, it was the Nun and the Samechs, and it was, "Let's continue that old model."

1:49:12 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:13 Speaker 1 And us as kids, as kids, okay, you know, we take whatever we take, then you start growing and it's like, "But how does that model work? The Rebbe isn't telling me a sicha today."

1:49:20 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:20 Speaker 1 "And I have a question I can't just write and get a clear answer."

1:49:23 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:24 Speaker 1 So it was all kinds of ways how to force clear answers, right? And how to-

1:49:27 Speaker 4 Right

1:49:27 Speaker 1 ... w- w- it was all trying different ways and every party, let's say, tried another way of-

1:49:32 Speaker 4 Right

1:49:32 Speaker 1 ... of holding that together. And then, and pretty much just by, by living, right?

1:49:39 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:39 Speaker 1 And, and, and getting married and having kids and, and as well, I think many of us just realized that the Rebbe wants something more from us.

1:49:47 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:47 Speaker 1 And what I see now is that this next dor, the bochurim that we're bring with and talk to, by them, though, these ideas are a lot more pashut.

1:49:54 Speaker 4 Right.

1:49:54 Speaker 1 It's like we're talking like, like the, this, this, uh, transition that we went through and this journey. It's like by many bochurim, it's like, "Yeah, but you want..." Like, "You can't just know the Hirhurias. You have to know h-how to think. You have to learn the Rebbe's Torah, and you have to build an identity." And it's like, it's so pashut. And, and I got bochur asking like, "What's the chidduш this year?" Like, obviously. And it's like, am I, am I supposed to share, am I supposed to share all that with you? You would say yes, 'cause history is important. Um, yeah, so and that, amongst many other things, it makes me hopeful. It makes me hopeful that there's... In other words, we're talking about our dor, what we're doing. The next dor is, is they're on fire. They're... I, I'm not-- There's other things going on as well.

1:50:34 Speaker 4 No, no, I, I-

1:50:34 Speaker 1 But I'm saying, but a- as a whole, and I see this in 770 bochurim, there's, there's, there's an appreciation to, to be the, not just the Rebbe's mentch, not just Anshei Moshe, be the Rebbe's talmidim and be the Rebbe's... And be, you know, the Rebbe's worldview, the Rebbe's cook.

1:50:51 Speaker 4 I'm not cynical to that at all.

1:50:52 Speaker 1 Right.

1:50:52 Speaker 4 Fakher. I think that if you, if so long as we look at it as a Gimmel Tammuz prism, or so therefore every generation, every younger generation is a generation further away from that truth and a generation further demoralized and further dispirited by Gimmel Tammuz, then yeah, like you're telling me they're better than them, cut it out.

1:51:10 Speaker 1 Right.

1:51:11 Speaker 4 And that kinda talk like I, I wish in-

1:51:13 Speaker 1 And then goes the bikur, but they're better 'cause of Ohr and they're better 'cause of Etzem, and then it's like, does anyone even kn- hear what they're saying?

1:51:18 Speaker 4 I, I got no patience for this kind of psychobabble. But I, I don't have patience. You know, if it works for you-

1:51:23 Speaker 1 Right

1:51:24 Speaker 4 ... God bless you. It doesn't work for me. But when you talk about it, when, when, when you think about it as we're talking about something that's very tr- that has, that's, that's mevosas on emes. It's, it's something that comes from, from, from... Okay, but that's very general. But there was, there was an explosion of an idea that took place in Taf Shin Yud, of which of course can we trace back to earlier, but we're, let's focus on Taf Shin Yud.

1:51:46 Speaker 1 Right.

1:51:46 Speaker 4 That explosion of an idea can last who knows how long, right? And the more it's internalized and the more it's developed, the bigger it can get, not the smaller it can get. That's why I think it's so important to see it as a, as a, as a, as a shock of life as opposed to a shock of, of the opposite of life. You know, ultimately, that's what the idea of is- uh, hishtalsvus according to Chassidus is also, that, that by a tzadik, the petirah of a tzadik is not, is not, is not the, is not the opposite of life. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's... What, what's a... It's an explosion of life, but in a different level.

1:52:25 Speaker 1 Called maayis ha petiraso ve'avdo soi or-

1:52:27 Speaker 4 Right. And it, it, it goes up higher and higher and higher and higher in, in a, in a different way, right? And, and, and that is the ultimate explosion. It's, it, it explodes in a way that lives on further and further and bigger and bigger and, and so, yeah.

1:52:43 Speaker 1 Here, one second.

1:52:45 Speaker 4 Anyway.

1:52:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:52:46 Speaker 4 I have to get going anyway.

1:52:46 Speaker 1 All right.

1:52:47 Speaker 4 And I'm sure you have to get going. This has been a pleasure. We went way over-

1:52:50 Speaker 1 Well, it was good. It took, uh, a bit too many years to sit down and fabreng.

1:52:55 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:52:55 Speaker 1 Next time we'll be with the Bis Elokim.

1:52:57 Speaker 4 The water, the water works for me. All right. Say there Yasher koach. Thank you.

1:53:01 Speaker 1 Nachas lacha.

1:53:04 Speaker 4 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.