Ep. 28 // "The Price We Pay For Shlichus" w/ Rabbi Yossi Morozov

00:00 Speaker 1 This is the sacrifice you have to pay to be able to be a part of this great mission of shlichus.

00:05 Speaker 2 Right.

00:05 Speaker 1 If I had to choose over again, I would never choose going into business right away over later on in life to give up those 12 amazing years.

00:15 Speaker 2 Wow.

00:15 Speaker 1 You know?

00:16 Speaker 2 Hmm.

00:17 Speaker 1 One of the best years of my life. Yes, it was hard.

00:19 Speaker 2 Right.

00:20 Speaker 1 But, you know, it was an incredible part of my life, and it was worth the sacrifice, and this the, you know, this is the price you pay.

00:29 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-four. My name is Bentzi Avtzin, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. I'm here with Rabbi Yossi Morozov. It's the morning after Pesach. Thank you very much for making the time. Uh, I got to know you a few months ago, I think. Maybe it's close to a year now. Um, when it came time to look for a, uh, an insurance policy, and somehow our cross paths, or our paths crossed. Um, but I think even then you told me, and subsequently I found out, that you had a very different career just a few years earlier. And-

01:17 Speaker 1 Correct, correct. Yes. Yeah.

01:18 Speaker 2 Um.

01:19 Speaker 1 Very different.

01:19 Speaker 2 Uh, very different. In a very different looking office, in a very different looking country. So why don't you talk a little bit about, you know, that career, maybe even, maybe even introduce yourself, where you're from, and give a-

01:31 Speaker 1 Right

01:32 Speaker 2 ... short background.

01:33 Speaker 1 Yes, you know, so my, my name is Yossi Morozov, and you know me. Um, you know, I was, I, I was brought up in Brooklyn, Crown Heights. Got married to my wife, Suri. She was brought up also in Brooklyn, in Borough Park, all her life. And after we got married, we made the decision to move to Russia. You know, I had a big passion for shlichus because I was brought up with that ideology. I was actually brought up seeing the Rebbe. I lived a few blocks away from Seven Seventy. I saw, I saw the Rebbe many times, and actually, uh, had a great passion of trying to, to kiruv, help other Jews. You know, during my semikhah, you know, the type of semikhah I got was more like, um, being prepared to be a pulpit rabbi.

02:15 Speaker 2 Hmm.

02:16 Speaker 1 But I knew even then that I wanna go to some weird place that nobody else wants to go to.

02:20 Speaker 2 When was this? W- like which year?

02:23 Speaker 1 When that-- Well, I was doing semikhah in the ear- uh, 2003 in, in Australia.

02:27 Speaker 2 Okay.

02:29 Speaker 1 I actually moved to Russia in 2006.

02:31 Speaker 2 Okay.

02:33 Speaker 1 You know, it was, uh, about a year and a half or something after I got married. Um, had a baby.

02:40 Speaker 2 In Russia?

02:41 Speaker 1 No. We had a baby in New York.

02:42 Speaker 2 Right.

02:43 Speaker 1 And literally a few months later, we just, you know, we moved to Russia.

02:46 Speaker 2 And when you say Russia, it's, it's Russia.

02:49 Speaker 1 I say Russia, I mean Russia. I mean- ... you have to take a plane, um, to Moscow, and then you have to change airports, driving a few hours, and then from that airport take a propeller plane, you know, to a different city.

03:01 Speaker 2 Mamash?

03:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

03:02 Speaker 2 There's no direct flight from Moscow to the city you were in?

03:06 Speaker 1 There were-

03:06 Speaker 2 From, from the Moscow Sheremetyevo Airport.

03:08 Speaker 1 At the, at the time, no. No. There was no direct flight. I had to go to a different airport. So take out all my suitcases, go to a different airport that only allow you to take, uh, 20 kilo per person.

03:18 Speaker 2 Huh.

03:18 Speaker 1 So you have to bribe them or pay them or who knows what to try to get all your suitcases to the final destination.

03:25 Speaker 2 What was the name of the city?

03:26 Speaker 1 Ulyanovsk.

03:27 Speaker 2 Ulyanovsk. Ulyanovsk. So this is, this is very east of Moscow.

03:33 Speaker 1 It's southeast of Moscow.

03:35 Speaker 2 Okay.

03:35 Speaker 1 It's 1,000 kilometers southeast from Moscow.

03:37 Speaker 2 Hmm.

03:38 Speaker 1 Um, it's a city of 700,000 inhabitants.

03:41 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

03:41 Speaker 1 Um, and the actual region is, uh, one and a half million people.

03:44 Speaker 2 What's the region called?

03:46 Speaker 1 Called also, it's called the region of Ulyanovsk.

03:47 Speaker 2 I see. Oh, so this is a main city of the region.

03:49 Speaker 1 Of the region, and yeah. And, uh, I would say in the city itself, there was probably, you know, maybe 3,000 Jews.

03:55 Speaker 2 That's it?

03:56 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. And there's probably another 1,000 Jews in the region. Very assimilated. So, you know, extremely assimilated. You know, the average Jew is married to a non-Jew.

04:05 Speaker 2 Assimilated because of communism.

04:07 Speaker 1 Communism, yeah.

04:07 Speaker 2 You know, I mean generations back already.

04:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

04:10 Speaker 2 Right.

04:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:11 Speaker 2 Hmm. How did you settle on that city?

04:15 Speaker 1 So I, you know, I worked for Rabbi Lazar a few summers, uh, before I was married.

04:20 Speaker 2 Okay.

04:21 Speaker 1 And after I was married, he, you know, he invited me to come to Russia. He gave me a list of cities. Said, "Please, we'll buy you a ticket, fly to any city. Choose a city. We would love to have somebody like you who is willing to move to any of these places." Um, I had a few tickets booked for a number of cities. Um, I, I checked out three communities and, you know, this, this community had a group, a core group of around 50 people that were very eager to have a rabbi.

04:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:47 Speaker 1 You know, they... When, when I arrived there, there was at least 30 people waiting for us, a lot of them young university students.

04:53 Speaker 2 Oh, really?

04:54 Speaker 1 Yeah. So noticing that there's people that actually very badly want us.

05:00 Speaker 2 Right. There's a core.

05:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, my first Rosh Hashanah, which was only 10 days after I moved there, we had probably 160 people in total between the four, you know, the four minyanim.

05:12 Speaker 2 Wow.

05:14 Speaker 1 And all different ages. So, you know, there was actually a group of people that really badly wanted this.

05:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

05:21 Speaker 1 And I think you said it right. They, they weren't really assimilated because they wanted to, you know?

05:25 Speaker 2 Right.

05:26 Speaker 1 A lot of Russian Jews are, are deep inside them strong believers.

05:31 Speaker 2 Right.

05:31 Speaker 1 Extremely strong believers. So, you know, that was actually what I was looking for, people that want Judaism and they have no one else who wants to give it to them.

05:40 Speaker 2 Right. Probably in this case because it's so, so far away.

05:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, my wife went to the store and asked for Pampers, so they just told her, "You have to go to the pharmacy."

05:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:51 Speaker 1 She walks into the pharmacy, and she asks for a box of Pampers, and they asked her, they, you know, "Do you want one Pamper or two Pampers?" You know?

06:00 Speaker 2 Is it, is it cloth diapers they were giving you?

06:03 Speaker 1 The actual Pampers were, was not what people were really using at the time.

06:07 Speaker 2 Right.

06:07 Speaker 1 So you're talking about a place that was really backwards and, and pe-pe- you know, nobody wants to move to such a place.

06:13 Speaker 2 Right. Well, how did you get your wife to agree to this?

06:16 Speaker 1 I don't know. You have... It's, it's, you know-

06:18 Speaker 2 I'm saying was it, she was, she was-

06:19 Speaker 1 She was on-

06:20 Speaker 2 Fully on board

06:20 Speaker 1 ... she was on board. I mean, yeah, it wasn't, I didn't have, there's no, there was no process to get her to agree with it.

06:23 Speaker 2 Right.

06:23 Speaker 1 She was like, yeah, she liked the idea, and she was like, "Yeah, let's go for it."

06:26 Speaker 2 Huh.

06:27 Speaker 1 Um-

06:28 Speaker 2 So how, so, so, so, so how long were you there in the end, uh, in Ulyanovsk?

06:33 Speaker 1 S- I was there for 12 years.

06:34 Speaker 2 12 years.

06:35 Speaker 1 You know, the city progressed over time, became a little more modern.

06:37 Speaker 2 Right.

06:37 Speaker 1 Malls opened up, stores opened up very fast. Um, you asked about my wife, actually. When I went to visit Russia the first time, I wasn't 100% sure I'm gonna move there. It was obviously gonna be up to if my wife wants it.

06:50 Speaker 2 Right.

06:50 Speaker 1 It was actually this city, Ulyanovsk, when she saw those youth yearning for-

06:54 Speaker 2 Right

06:54 Speaker 1 ... a couple to come down-

06:56 Speaker 2 Right

06:56 Speaker 1 ... that she eagerly wanted to do this.

06:58 Speaker 2 It sold, it sold it to her.

06:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

07:00 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

07:01 Speaker 1 Um, so I was there for 12 years. It was really nice. Uh, it was tough. Russia's a very tough place to live. You know, you have the, the government looking at you all the time. Every time guests came to visit me, they knew about it. They asked people who work for me or people around me, "Who are the guests? Why are they there? How long will they be there?"

07:20 Speaker 2 Hmm.

07:21 Speaker 1 Um, every-

07:22 Speaker 2 So the, so the KGB atmosphere is still there.

07:25 Speaker 1 It's, it's still there for foreigners. I don't know if locals feel it so much.

07:29 Speaker 2 Right.

07:29 Speaker 1 But people in high positions, like the director of every company there, um, government positions or foreigners feel it a lot.

07:36 Speaker 2 Right.

07:36 Speaker 1 You have to register if you wanna stay in any city more than three days.

07:40 Speaker 2 Oh, do you?

07:41 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:41 Speaker 2 Wow.

07:42 Speaker 1 So, and you know, I had one person who was on top of me, so, like, I once made a joke.

07:48 Speaker 2 What do you mean? You had a person in the-

07:49 Speaker 1 A person in the FSB, formerly known as the KGB, who was in charge of me, and it wasn't the same person every year, but every few years it rotated.

07:56 Speaker 2 And they introduced themselves to you?

07:57 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. So, so-

08:01 Speaker 2 So they basically say, like, "Hi, this is my name. And, and, and just by the way, I, I'm overseeing your activities here."

08:08 Speaker 1 So, uh, yes. Yeah.

08:09 Speaker 2 You had to check in with them?

08:10 Speaker 1 No, no.

08:11 Speaker 2 Did they give you guidelines of what you are and not allowed to do?

08:15 Speaker 1 No, no. Um-

08:17 Speaker 2 So basically just making sure that you don't have any bad intentions.

08:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. You know, I had to be very careful of what I say.

08:24 Speaker 2 Right.

08:25 Speaker 1 But more so what I think. And I never, I, I don't think I-

08:29 Speaker 2 What do you mean you were careful about what you think? How did they know what you think?

08:33 Speaker 1 You know, I was careful never to think bad about the Russian society, um, the Russian government, because if you think bad about or your, your head starts veering into politics-

08:43 Speaker 2 Right

08:43 Speaker 1 ... you might end up saying something.

08:45 Speaker 2 I see.

08:45 Speaker 1 So I kept my mind in what it was, where it was supposed to be. Right?

08:50 Speaker 2 Which was? Being with Carviden.

08:52 Speaker 1 Being with Carviden, taking care of my family.

08:54 Speaker 2 Right.

08:55 Speaker 1 You know, there's a, there's a few places my mind was supposed to be in.

08:58 Speaker 2 Right.

08:58 Speaker 1 But, you know, politics wouldn't really help me anyways.

09:00 Speaker 2 Wow.

09:01 Speaker 1 You know, it wouldn't change the world, it wouldn't change me.

09:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

09:03 Speaker 1 So.

09:05 Speaker 2 Right. So-

09:05 Speaker 1 If I was bored, I'd maybe read American politics, which didn't really help me either.

09:09 Speaker 2 That wouldn't bother them if you read American politics.

09:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

09:12 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, that's fascinating 'cause it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a different dimension of sacrifice that you're talking about here. And, you know, f-from one hand, a person could say, "Okay, so you were engaging in self-censorship, and you were, you know, uh, this is, this is a, this is a comment on Russian, you know, on Russian paranoia and Russian stuff."

09:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

09:34 Speaker 2 Okay, maybe, but I think, I think f-at least for this podcast's sake, the very interesting element to me is that, like, what do you give up for your shlichus? What are you ready to give up? And in this case, you had to give up, whether one agrees with the politics of it or not, you know, it's not democracy, it's not this, it's not that. F-fair enough, but you had to give up a certain space of your mind. Like, you couldn't go there, right?

10:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

10:03 Speaker 2 And I mean, that, that's, I mean, that, that's just a fascinating way of looking at shlichus in general be- I mean, really one could say perhaps any sacrifice or any commitment that a person makes, you are not just committing the action that you're doing, you're also committing your thinking to it, right?

10:20 Speaker 1 Correct.

10:20 Speaker 2 And the things that you cannot think in order to get to that thing, right? If, like, i-if you go, if you, if you, let's say, are in business, um, there are some things that you can't really think about in order to do what you're doing. Maybe, you know, you can't necessarily think about your competitors, y-you know?

10:41 Speaker 1 Right.

10:41 Speaker 2 Right? Of course, if you, if you stop, if you start cutting out more and more things, very caref- very quickly you can go uneth- you can go into a place that's unethical.

10:52 Speaker 1 Correct.

10:52 Speaker 2 Right? But I think at, whether it's business or, or, or anything really, the, a, a, a strong commitment, a, a total commitment very often involves a, a, a, at least a, a section of your thought being, being, uh-

11:09 Speaker 1 Yeah

11:09 Speaker 2 ... being, uh, cut off. In order for me to do this, I can't think that... Even, even, even the idea that if I do this, I can't spend time thinking about this other, this other idea that I would've thought about otherwise, right? If I choose one career, that means that another career that I could have taken is off the table.

11:27 Speaker 1 Right. Sometimes that happens, yeah.

11:29 Speaker 2 I'm saying that, I, I'm just, I just don't want it to sound like this is a shlichus thing.

11:33 Speaker 1 Yeah.

11:33 Speaker 2 But, but going back to shlichus, it's fascinating because in your case, there's a specific idea of, like, you couldn't think about Russian politics. But, and I think this will tie back to your story, there's also a lot of other things that you can't think about that's not just about Russia. Like, you cannot think about so much, at least your personal finances, right? If you thought about that, would you choose this path of going on shlichus, right?

12:00 Speaker 1 Um, I guess probably n- yeah. I was, I was probably quite idealistic, you know, when I got married.

12:05 Speaker 2 Right.

12:06 Speaker 1 Changing the world was, was very much on my mind. Um, and I guess, uh, my personal finances was not the first thing on my mind.

12:12 Speaker 2 Right. No, but even, even... I, I'm not even talking about people that don't ca- like, like I'm not talking about full on like neglect their personal finances, but, you know, you're not thinking about getting rich. You're not thinking about making-

12:22 Speaker 1 Yeah

12:22 Speaker 2 ... a lot of money.

12:23 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:23 Speaker 2 Right? That, that's, that's, that's a thought process that you're taking out of y- out of the equation.

12:28 Speaker 1 Right.

12:29 Speaker 2 Um, you're, you're not thinking about a lot of comforts, being near family, for example, right? And, and I think i- as you go deeper and deeper, there are more and more things. Y- you know, you are, you are imma- I mean, maybe, m- maybe, m- maybe, maybe we'll, we'll discuss it later on in the conversation, but y-

12:49 Speaker 1 But I wa- I wasn't blocked from those thoughts, I mean to say, you know?

12:52 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting.

12:53 Speaker 1 Money was on my mind.

12:54 Speaker 2 Right.

12:55 Speaker 1 You know? There's times I wanted to buy things, and I needed the money for it, and money was on my mind. Um, seeing family was on my mind. I would pick up the phone and say, "Hey-

13:02 Speaker 2 Right

13:02 Speaker 1 ... maybe you guys should come to Preemptive."

13:04 Speaker 2 Right.

13:05 Speaker 1 You know? Or may- maybe we'll meet you when I'm in America. So, so those things were on my mind. I just didn't have it maybe at reach.

13:13 Speaker 2 Uh, interesting.

13:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:14 Speaker 2 So you-

13:14 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say it blocked my mind, you know, from-

13:16 Speaker 2 You didn't censor yourself in this sense.

13:17 Speaker 1 Yeah.

13:17 Speaker 2 Do you think there's anything that a shliach does self-censor to be a shliach?

13:24 Speaker 1 I think it's really personal. I think everyone's different.

13:26 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:27 Speaker 1 I think you could be a shliach and think about money all day.

13:30 Speaker 2 Right.

13:30 Speaker 1 If, you, you know, it's up to your mind if you want, you wanna allow that.

13:33 Speaker 2 Right.

13:33 Speaker 1 And it's okay. You could think about the fact that you're, you know, you're missing, um... I mean, to a certain extent, you know, the fact that you, you don't have a restaurant to go to, for example. Let's, let's put that, right?

13:44 Speaker 2 Right.

13:44 Speaker 1 I live in a place here there's a lot of kosher where I am.

13:46 Speaker 2 Right.

13:46 Speaker 1 Now, obviously y- y- it wouldn't be healthy and helpful to think all day, you know, "Which restaurant can I go to if t- the closest restaurant's a plane wi- a plane ride away?"

13:56 Speaker 2 Right.

13:56 Speaker 1 Um, but, but I don't know... I, I don't know if, you know, I think every shliach is different. Some shluchim might censor themselves just not to think about that. Some will just... Some will think about it, you know?

14:10 Speaker 2 But what a- what about on a deeper level? What about on a deeper level? Like, to me, shlichus is, is a very idealistic-

14:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

14:18 Speaker 2 ... i- a very idealistic choice, right? A v- very idealistic way to live. And, you know, we are ultimately, for all the idealism that a person has, we also have, we have very practical side.

14:34 Speaker 1 Right.

14:34 Speaker 2 And one could even call it a self, a self-centered selfish side, however you want, however you want to ca- categorize it-

14:39 Speaker 1 Right

14:39 Speaker 2 ... or characterize it. And d- do you feel like you had to censor that out? Now that you, and we'll get a little bit late- we'll, we'll get, we'll, we'll get to where you are now-

14:51 Speaker 1 Yeah

14:51 Speaker 2 ... but, but clearly you're working in insurance now. Looking back, do you feel that that practical side has to be censored?

14:59 Speaker 1 I didn't feel that, no.

15:00 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:01 Speaker 1 I felt, I felt I could think about my needs, my family's needs. It was just a, might have been a little h- you know, a lot harder actually to get some of those needs.

15:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:11 Speaker 1 And some of those needs took years to get. But, um, I eventually had most of the stuff that we really needed as a family.

15:18 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:18 Speaker 1 You know?

15:20 Speaker 2 Right.

15:21 Speaker 1 You know, start with, let's say, I'll give you an example, Cholov Yisroel.

15:23 Speaker 2 Right.

15:24 Speaker 1 It's a need, right? That some people want. Some people like, you know, dairy food. Um, in the beginning I didn't have that.

15:32 Speaker 2 Right.

15:32 Speaker 1 I went maybe a year and a half without eating dairy.

15:34 Speaker 2 Okay.

15:34 Speaker 1 Eventually figured out how to get, you know, long-lasting milk that lasts for a year, and we used to get 1,000 bottles at a time.

15:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:41 Speaker 1 Um, eventually I figured out how that, you know, every time I went to New York, I paid extra for overweight, and I took a box, a suitcase full of chocolate and candy. Um, at one point I had someone run... It took me 10 years to get that, but on the 10th year that I lived in Russia, I had someone run me a Cholov Yisroel ice cream run from a city 25 hours drive away.

16:05 Speaker 2 25 hours drive?

16:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. And that this person, uh, sent me a, uh, you know, basically a truck full of ice cream, and we filled up two full freezers. Um, so, and yeah, we had, you know, it was-

16:18 Speaker 2 25-hour drive of ice cream.

16:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. But the, you know-

16:21 Speaker 2 Wow

16:21 Speaker 1 ... I, I did think about diff- you know, I obviously didn't think about ice cream the first few years that I was there. I didn't, I couldn't afford thinking about that.

16:29 Speaker 2 Right.

16:29 Speaker 1 Right? I had, you know, there was a community to take care of and build and... But I, I did at, I did here and there stop and think, you know, what, what would make my life's, my family's life a little bit easier here, a little more comfortable. Um, I was allowed to think that, and I, and I, and I tried to, I tried to implement that.

16:47 Speaker 2 Hmm.

16:47 Speaker 1 You know? I think it's important. I, I, looking back, I think it was, was a s- was a good decision that I did that.

16:54 Speaker 2 But what was the realistic... What was the, the, what about like the realistic side of, you know, shlichus in many ways is about bringing Mashiach.

17:02 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:03 Speaker 2 Right? Which is ultimate idealistic enterprise.

17:06 Speaker 1 Yeah.

17:07 Speaker 2 Right? Because it, it, it's a, it's a confrontation with reality itself. Like reality is going to change on the most fundamental level, right? Uh, like, do you feel like you had to... L- like in business, if reality gives you a, a, a, a patch in the face, you have to shift gears.

17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. Of course.

17:28 Speaker 2 You, you have to respect reality. And shlichus in many ways you're like, "No, no, no, I'm going to, I'm going to push right through it." Do you feel that there's an element of censoring there, like where like I cannot think that way? I cannot think-

17:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. There is, of course. Yeah.

17:44 Speaker 2 Hmm.

17:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. Of course, yeah. I mean, you're going on shlichus, you're, you're planning to, you know, you're planning to really change the place where you're, you're, you are. You're planning to change families' lives, and there's a lot of blockades in the way.

17:58 Speaker 2 Right.

17:58 Speaker 1 First of all, people are not necessarily ready to make those changes you think you want them to make.

18:03 Speaker 2 Right.

18:04 Speaker 1 Right? And then there's practical things, you know. You're a shliach and you wanna open up a school. I wanted to open up a school for all the grades, realizing that people have very few kids in my community, and they live... The city's an hour drive from all directions.

18:19 Speaker 2 Right.

18:19 Speaker 1 It's a huge city. Some stuff that I wanted to do, I just, you know, it was really hard to get there.

18:26 Speaker 2 Right. So you just block it out.

18:31 Speaker 1 It's tough because you're in a shlichus, you're extremely idealistic.

18:34 Speaker 2 Right.

18:35 Speaker 1 See, if we're in business, you make a simple decision. You know, this is not practical financially.

18:40 Speaker 2 Right.

18:40 Speaker 1 You're gonna lose money doing this. You're not really gonna succeed. Just change gears.

18:45 Speaker 2 Right.

18:45 Speaker 1 So-

18:45 Speaker 2 Get back to it another day.

18:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Shlichus is very hard to change gears. You know, you're really idealistic.

18:51 Speaker 2 Mm.

18:52 Speaker 1 Um, I find friends shluchim sometimes who it's 10 years later, and sometimes I'm from the outside, I'm looking at with some of their goals, and they really should have changed gears 10 years ago, but it's hard. You're idealistic about it.

19:05 Speaker 2 Right.

19:06 Speaker 1 You, you wanna do the right thing.

19:08 Speaker 2 Right.

19:08 Speaker 1 So it's, it's very hard when you're shlichus just to shift gears. You usually will try to the last drop until you fall, until, you know, you, you know you have to shift a little bit.

19:17 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

19:19 Speaker 1 You know?

19:20 Speaker 2 Yeah.

19:20 Speaker 1 I gave you an example. I wanted to open up a school, and I realized I can't, but I did shift gears and opened up an afterschool and a preschool-

19:26 Speaker 2 Right

19:26 Speaker 1 ... and a Sunday school, and it was extremely successful.

19:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

19:30 Speaker 1 But in the back of my mind, I'm going to open up that full-blown school one day. It took, it took a lot of years to tell myself, "You know what? Take this out of your head. Don't think about it again. It's not practical where you live to do this."

19:44 Speaker 2 Right.

19:44 Speaker 1 Right. It's very good to be idealistic, and thanks, thanks to that, you got a lot of things done, but, but it takes time to shift. I, I think it's h- much harder when you're, when you're that idealistic to really shift gears.

19:55 Speaker 2 Right. What's that? Something outside. All right. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a f- it's a fascinating topic. I mean, I, you know, as I told you yesterday, I'm also... I, I also spent a few years on shlichus.

20:11 Speaker 1 Right.

20:11 Speaker 2 Not quite... No, not quite. Not at all, not at all in your circumstances. Although, um, you talking about cholov yisrael milk is something I can relate to as a child growing up on shlichus in Hong Kong. Like, we didn't have cholov yisrael milk at any point in my life. Um, we didn't have, you know, cholov yisrael milk or any real dai- or any dairy, and so, so in that sense, I can resonate with that, although I don't think my parents would argue, and I certainly didn't feel that Hong Kong was anything close to the boondocks that you were describing, right? But, but yeah, I mean, so I, I, I, I, I, I, I ask it not as a way to cri-cri-criticize shlichus. It's not my place to do that.

20:52 Speaker 1 Right.

20:52 Speaker 2 Um, I'm not, you know, I'm not, uh, I'm not trying to critique it as an outsider. Um, it's more, I think it's a very interesting thing to think about, and I think it, I think it's something that is, is part of the Lubavitch experience as a whole as well, which is when you buy into a vision that's so idealistic, and, and this... It, it's not even just shlichus, the whole idea of dirah b'tachonim.

21:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:15 Speaker 2 The whole, the whole, the whole vision of Chassidus from the beginning, it in many ways demands a certain kind of ... So I don't know if the word self-censorship, but it demands a certain kind of focus that seems to ignore some basic things, some basic facts and realities around you.

21:34 Speaker 1 Correct.

21:35 Speaker 2 Right? And so the question becomes, do we sometimes find ourselves, or do we often find ourselves in a place where we are, we are basically blocking off something that's right near us? We're blocking off a reality that's right next to us. And then the question becomes, if we are blocking that off, is that, is that healthy, right? Because that reality can come bite us at some time.

22:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. It def- I think, I think every shliach on a different level, but unfortunately, that happens, of course. I, I think many of us on shlichus end up blocking real realities.

22:19 Speaker 2 Do you think, do you think there's a way around that, looking back at it?

22:24 Speaker 1 You know, I mean, the easiest way around it is when you ha- when you have healthy family or healthy mashpiyim or healthy friends.

22:32 Speaker 2 Right.

22:33 Speaker 1 Which is sometimes a matter of luck-

22:35 Speaker 2 Mm

22:35 Speaker 1 ... and circumstances.

22:36 Speaker 2 Mm.

22:38 Speaker 1 You know, e- every human being is gonna speak to people, including every shliach, whether it's a mashpia, a former rosh yeshiva, a former good friend-

22:46 Speaker 2 Right

22:46 Speaker 1 ... family member, a parent. Um, so that's really the best way around it. Sometimes you have a, you know, say a parent who has a good relationship with a child, and they tell them, you know, "You're on shlichus, we love it, but our grandchild has a real health issue."

22:59 Speaker 2 Right.

22:59 Speaker 1 Let's really analyze that.

23:02 Speaker 2 Right.

23:02 Speaker 1 And if, if you don't have a, um, you know, a very healthy, down-to-earth, um, social surroundings that respect and understand shlichus well and want shlichus but also understand the, the practical part, it's, it's very hard to, to on your own sometimes get out of it if you're really idealistic. If you're, if you're a true shliach, and you're really doing it for the real reasons, which is usually the case-

23:24 Speaker 2 Right

23:24 Speaker 1 ... and you're willing to gi- sacrifice... I, I, I lo- I think every shliach is a sacrifice, whether it's Hong Kong or Russia or even, you know, somewhere in New Jersey.

23:34 Speaker 2 Right.

23:34 Speaker 1 There's a, there's a, there's a strong element of sacrifice when you leave the frum community, and you don't have a lot of the amenities we have here, and with that mindset, you end up blocking things, you know?

23:47 Speaker 2 I think the sacrifice is primarily-

23:49 Speaker 1 Perhaps

23:49 Speaker 2 ... in the mind.

23:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:50 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, that's why I'm so fascinated. I wasn't even planning on talking to you about this.

23:53 Speaker 1 Yeah.

23:54 Speaker 2 But that's in many ways, to me, that's the biggest sacrifice. Like, even if you live, let's say, in a suburb that's near Monsey, let's say.

24:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:01 Speaker 2 You know, there are suburbs in New Jersey that are near Monsey.

24:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:04 Speaker 2 There, there are so- there are shluchim in Monsey itself. I mean, it's not, it's not necess- obviously, there are, there are different sacrifices that come with being further away and without having that access. But in many ways, to me, the, the sacrifice is, is, is the mental one-

24:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

24:18 Speaker 2 ... which is, you know, basically blocking out certain options, you know, blocking out, blocking out possibilities and saying that po- those possibilities are not, are not available to me.

24:28 Speaker 1 Correct.

24:28 Speaker 2 Right? Um, right. And, uh, and, uh, like being... Like, shlichus is what I'm doing regardless of other opportunities.

24:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:38 Speaker 2 That's a sacrifice.

24:39 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:39 Speaker 2 That's a massive sacrifice. In many ways, that could be the largest sacrifice 'cause ultimately, your head is, is, is a cl- is the most powerful thing you have, right? It's... And it's the closest.

24:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

24:48 Speaker 2 It's how you see the whole world, right?

24:50 Speaker 1 Yeah.

24:51 Speaker 2 Peop- you know, i- if you had to choose between not having a certain food or having a part of your head taken away from, a part of your mind taken away from you or, or off-limits to you, I think everybody would choose, "I'll, I'll, I'll survive without pizza, but let me think," you know, let me-

25:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah

25:05 Speaker 2 ... let me live.

25:06 Speaker 1 Of course.

25:06 Speaker 2 Right?

25:06 Speaker 1 Of course, 100%. Yeah.

25:07 Speaker 2 So I think that's, I think that's in many ways the bigger sacrifice. So but b- before any... I mean, we should have probably clarified this earlier, but, but describe a little bit why you're no longer in Russia, 'cause I don't want people to feel like, uh, you just picked up one day and left.

25:21 Speaker 1 Right. So, you know, you-- I'll just say two words about the sacrifice. You know, it, it was extremely hard the first years. A month after moving to Russia, they made a new law that foreigners have to leave every three months and get a new visa.

25:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

25:35 Speaker 1 And if you're working in a specific city, you would have to get an invitation from the local immigration department sent to the host country you come from, which takes two weeks, and only afterwards get a visa. So which means essentially every 10, 11 weeks for four years straight, my family had to go to the US, from the US ask for an invitation. So it was just like a almost a three-week process so we can go get back to, to Russia.

25:58 Speaker 2 Every few months?

25:59 Speaker 1 We had to do this every 11 weeks, yeah.

26:01 Speaker 2 Every 11 weeks you'd go back to the US for three weeks and then come back?

26:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:04 Speaker 2 And do the whole 20-hour drive and-

26:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there's a different time zone, so you're talking about, you know, on the watch it was 30 hours later when we came home.

26:14 Speaker 2 Oh, I know, I know what it is to fly across-

26:15 Speaker 1 Yeah

26:15 Speaker 2 ... the world.

26:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, so-

26:16 Speaker 2 I don't know what it is to drive in some beaten up Russian bus, uh, all those hours.

26:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:20 Speaker 2 But-

26:20 Speaker 1 And the roads, you know, you're talking about highways there. Not my area, it was usually, you know, one car goes this way, one goes that way, and that's the big highway between city to city.

26:29 Speaker 2 Right.

26:29 Speaker 1 Which, you know, you're driving your small car that barely drives, and a truck is ahead of you, and the roads are bumpy. Um-

26:36 Speaker 2 Scary.

26:37 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was, it was, it was a-- You know, you're knocked out for a few days after each ride. We didn't have, um, much money at the time, so this was expensive endeavor. You're coming to America, and you're paying a lot of money to make those invitations, and visas, and tickets, and everything was... You know, they make sure to charge nicely, the Russians. Um, it, it, it was heavy. Um, we wanted to get Russian residency, and someone in the immigration department at the time would not allow it till I had to speak to the governor of the region, whose last name was the same last name as me. He was not Jewish, but his last name was Morozov. And he, he sorted out. Eventually, he's like, "I'm gonna mix in over here and make sure you get your, your Ru- your Russian residency." And we got Russian residency, which means we had like s- you know, like a green card.

27:19 Speaker 2 Right.

27:19 Speaker 1 We had a similar to Russian passport. We didn't have to do all this. Um, this is just one of many, many obstacles. I mean-

27:26 Speaker 2 Right

27:26 Speaker 1 ... we sent a container of our possessions, and they locked it up for over six months and didn't allow us to access our, our, our essen- our, our essentials and all our stuff that we had, our clothes and everything we had in there, when we just moved down. So-

27:37 Speaker 2 Did you know all of this before you committed to living there? Did you know that they, they were gonna be so, so, so, uh, s- suspicious of a foreigner?

27:45 Speaker 1 No. I was in Russia many times running camps. Uh, uh, you know, the Russian people are nice people.

27:50 Speaker 2 Right.

27:50 Speaker 1 I really think so. I mean, I'm not talking about the Jewish people. The Russian people in general have a very nice mentality, and they're good people.

27:55 Speaker 2 Right.

27:56 Speaker 1 And, you know, when you meet even authorities, whether it's the police or the Russian government, they're nice people a lot of times. You know, the government in my city was very nice to me. I didn't realize that, uh, the deep state, if you wanna call it, there's a deep state in Russia that's behind all this that runs the government too.

28:13 Speaker 2 Right.

28:13 Speaker 1 You know, the governor, the mayor, in a way, they don't have-- they have a lot of limitations.

28:17 Speaker 2 Right.

28:18 Speaker 1 And I didn't realize that deep state that exists in Russia that runs things behind the scenes.

28:24 Speaker 2 Right.

28:25 Speaker 1 And, um, it was really tough. Um, and that we... I, I'm calling it deep state. I don't know, I don't know a different word. But these are the people, you know, after-

28:35 Speaker 2 The bu- the bureaucracy, the intelligence, uh-

28:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's, there's like two governments in Russia. There's like the government running the technical part.

28:42 Speaker 2 Right.

28:42 Speaker 1 And then there's like, you know, the unelected part-

28:46 Speaker 2 Right

28:46 Speaker 1 ... or whatever you wanna call it-

28:47 Speaker 2 Oh

28:47 Speaker 1 ... of the secret service.

28:48 Speaker 2 Right.

28:48 Speaker 1 And they do just, they have u- unlimited amount of authority over the government and everyone. They, and they do a lot of things behind the scene.

28:55 Speaker 2 Right.

28:55 Speaker 1 Immigration department is under them.

28:57 Speaker 2 Right.

28:58 Speaker 1 So there's a lot of moving parts in the country that, that they control independently of the local governments.

29:03 Speaker 2 Right.

29:04 Speaker 1 You know, after being there for 11 years, and, you know, life was tough in the beginning, but I have to say, you know, eventually my kids, my wife, and myself, we made friends. People that in our community was-- our connection with them was not just trying to bring them to Yiddishkeit. They were becoming closer. We have numerous families that moved there to Saransk from today. I would say there's, there's at least 100 and something local families that are keeping Pesach and many parts of Judaism on a regular basis, thanks to us. Um, we gave classes daily. We had a very active community, but I actually had people that over time I consider them my friends, and they consider me friends, and life became easier and easier. We actually became used to living there.

29:45 Speaker 2 Right. Chazak u'batach.

29:46 Speaker 1 Chazak u'batach. I was thinking in Russian. I remember walking to shul back and forth, and I wasn't thinking in English anymore. I was thinking in Russian.

29:52 Speaker 2 Hmm.

29:53 Speaker 1 Sometimes for, you know, just to chat, chat about any topic, I can call a local person. I, you know, and I really started liking the place. I also had a lot of government connections at times, so when obstacles came along, you know, I picked up the phone, the mayor, the governor. Um, the mayor used to sometimes call me and ask me Kabbalistic questions. He was a Christian, but he had a very, very good, uh-

30:14 Speaker 2 Right

30:15 Speaker 1 ... you know, um, I used to walk in the s-

30:18 Speaker 2 Russian, Russian Orthodox.

30:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was friendly with a lot of the, the clergy in the city, including the head mufti, the head, the, you know, the head priest. Um, I used to walk in the streets with my yarmulke day and night comfortably. Jews and non-Jews alike would say hello to me. People knew me. I was very well known in the city.

30:34 Speaker 2 Right.

30:35 Speaker 1 Um, and out of the blue, on the 9th of May, which is Russia's lo- biggest holiday of the year.

30:44 Speaker 2 It's-

30:44 Speaker 1 It's called Russian Victory Day.

30:46 Speaker 2 Against the Nazis.

30:47 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:47 Speaker 2 Right.

30:48 Speaker 1 I open up my mailbox, and I see a letter from the FSB, the secret service, that I have 14 days to pack up and leave.

30:56 Speaker 2 Out of the blue?

30:57 Speaker 1 Out of the blue.

30:57 Speaker 2 You didn't, you didn't see this coming at all?

31:00 Speaker 1 Out of the blue.

31:01 Speaker 2 Huh.

31:01 Speaker 1 You know. Um, actually that same, you know, you know, the irony on that same day I was invited to stand on the stage in front of-- with the governor, mayor, and city officials in front of tens of thousands of people by the parade. They wanted me to be in the stage. You know, they wanted the, the face of, you know, one of, you know, of the rabbi an-and other, you know, dignitaries on the stage. So it was like, I really wasn't expecting that. You know, I thought it was... I didn't really take it serious the first twenty-four hours, to be honest. It was, it was like something was weird. I didn't really believe it, you know?

31:38 Speaker 2 Right.

31:39 Speaker 1 I called the next day the, the, the mayor and other governor officials, and I said to them, "I wanna speak to you." And I walked over to their office. They were like, "Sure, we're gonna help you." And when they saw that letter, their face, you know, turned, you know, different colors. They realized they can't really help me.

31:56 Speaker 2 That it's out of their hands.

31:57 Speaker 1 It's out of their hands. Um, they gave me some advice how to go to court. Um, it was very hard for me 'cause my whole life I wanted to do one thing and one thing only, shlichus.

32:09 Speaker 2 Right.

32:11 Speaker 1 So this was, this was really, really, really hard for me, and, and I, and I fought for this place. You know, there was every obstacle you can think about. Every single pro-- every class I started, you know, I expected twenty people to show up, and one showed up.

32:26 Speaker 2 Right.

32:26 Speaker 1 And it took years till I had those twenty people.

32:29 Speaker 2 Right.

32:29 Speaker 1 It meant every... Nothing in my, within my community was easy to do.

32:33 Speaker 2 Right.

32:34 Speaker 1 Everything I cherished and, and I was happy about, and this was, it was a lot. I fought to get myself a visa in this place, you know?

32:42 Speaker 2 Right.

32:43 Speaker 1 Um, and, uh, in the beginning, my mind was a little bit paralyzed. Like, I, I, I didn't know what I'm gonna do. I decided I'm staying here. I'm not going anywhere.

32:55 Speaker 2 Right.

32:56 Speaker 1 Um, it sunk in, like, probably forty-eight hours later that I'm gonna have to do something if I wanna stay here.

33:01 Speaker 2 Right.

33:02 Speaker 1 I took my case to court and lost.

33:05 Speaker 2 How long did that take?

33:06 Speaker 1 The court case... Well, there's three court cases. The local court took around two months. The judge was almost crying when he ruled. Um-

33:14 Speaker 2 Like, what's the case? What's the argument?

33:16 Speaker 1 Well, their, the argument of the FSB was is that I'm involved in terrorist activities, and I'm a danger to the region.

33:23 Speaker 2 And they had proof?

33:24 Speaker 1 And they have proof, but they can't show the proof to anyone, not me and not the judge.

33:27 Speaker 2 It's confidential, right?

33:28 Speaker 1 It's confidential because it's a, it's, you know, it's-

33:31 Speaker 2 It's dangerous

33:31 Speaker 1 ... dangerous. Yeah. It's... Yeah. The judge, um, I realized in the court, wow, this is amazing. The, the judge feels bad he has to rule against me. He was, like, almost crying.

33:40 Speaker 2 Wow.

33:41 Speaker 1 Um, the lawyer for the FSB actually was crying, and she went to hug my wife and, and apologize.

33:48 Speaker 2 Huh.

33:48 Speaker 1 So the judge afterwards gave me instructions how to go to the higher courts. So I went to the higher court, it's called the regional court, and I lost again.

33:56 Speaker 2 Also a few months.

33:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, two-month process again. Um, I guess these judges had a certain sense of, a tiny sense of morality, and that's why they were, like, pushing me to the next court up.

34:07 Speaker 2 Right.

34:08 Speaker 1 The final one, they pushed me to the Supreme Court of Russia.

34:11 Speaker 2 Okay.

34:12 Speaker 1 Right. Um, a part of me at that, you know, at that point I was getting real, a little bit realistic of what's going on.

34:21 Speaker 2 Right.

34:21 Speaker 1 And I had to start thinking, you know what? There is a tiny chance a miracle will happen, and I'll win this Supreme Court case, and I'll stay in shlichus. But what if not? So as, uh, as the, the court case was going on in the Supreme Court, the paperwork and getting ready for the final date of the actual trials-

34:39 Speaker 2 So this is in Moscow, the Supreme Court?

34:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, Supreme Court of Moscow, which is very rare that they accept a case with a foreigner involved.

34:46 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

34:47 Speaker 1 My mind already, you know... At some point I said to my wife, I said, "Listen, we have to... Our mind has to go somewhere else now. Let's be, let's be practical."

34:55 Speaker 2 Did you ever speak to the FSB guy in your town, the one that you had met earlier?

34:59 Speaker 1 During this period, they would not want to meet me, so I had people in my community meet them.

35:05 Speaker 2 And?

35:06 Speaker 1 You know, they, they claimed this was for the best. They're doing this for the best of the community. They're trying to help the community. So, you know, um, at one point the, the president of the community went to meet the, um, the FSB office, the main office in the city. You know, a building, you know, five-floor building. I don't know how many workers they have there. They're, they're busy. This is the FSB.

35:28 Speaker 2 Right.

35:29 Speaker 1 And when he walks in, you know, there was five people in the room, and one of them says, "Oh, it was very nice that your wife was in Amsterdam last week." The second one opens their mouth and says, "You know, your daughter did very well on her test today."

35:40 Speaker 2 They're trying to intimidate you?

35:41 Speaker 1 To fit-- To intimidate him. And-

35:44 Speaker 2 Oh, they were talking to him about his wife.

35:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, his wife, his kids, each, you know, and-

35:49 Speaker 2 Wow

35:49 Speaker 1 ... they actually-

35:52 Speaker 2 So they monitor everybody.

35:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. The, the, the president of my community came out. I was sitting in the car waiting. When he came out, he was shaking. He's like, "Uh, Rabbi, um, can you take me to the airport? I wanna go to Israel right now."

36:02 Speaker 2 With his family?

36:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. And he calmed down that day, but it was like he realized that their eyes are on him from every angle.

36:08 Speaker 2 'Cause he's the president of the community.

36:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, so, you know. I got a nice letter, uh, four months into this whole thing from the FSB that they re- they apolog- they, they, how good I am as a rabbi. They went through all the classes that I do. You know, you do Hasidus on Tuesday, you do Gemara on Wednesday. They were going through what my wife does in the preschool, what's going on there. They actually really knew well, and it was a very nice letter praising all the work we do.

36:32 Speaker 2 Right.

36:33 Speaker 1 And I was like, "Wow, maybe I should save this for my funeral. This is a good one."

36:36 Speaker 2 I'm saying this is a beautiful doch.

36:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. And then, and but by the end of the last... But, but they finished the letter on the second page, "Unfortunately, because your acts of terrorist activities within the city and within the region, you're a danger to the country, so we, you know, we have to impose article whatever one five something, and y-you'll have to leave."

36:53 Speaker 2 I mean, I have to tell you, it's the first time I'm talking to a terrorist, but

36:55 Speaker 1 Oh, okay. Congratulations.

36:57 Speaker 2 Thank you.

36:58 Speaker 1 There's a first for everything, no?

36:59 Speaker 2 Yes, thank you. So, so you, so you, so you, so you had this conversation with your wife. You said-

37:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Do we go on shlichus again? ... somewhere else or do we settle in a Frum community?

37:12 Speaker 2 Right.

37:13 Speaker 1 You know? That was a tough one. That was a tough one. There's a part of me that was brought up with this li- you know, Chabad upbringing that a shliach is there forever.

37:22 Speaker 2 Right.

37:23 Speaker 1 And you don't drop it.

37:24 Speaker 2 Right.

37:24 Speaker 1 So once a shliach, always a shliach.

37:26 Speaker 2 Right.

37:27 Speaker 1 You're a shliach in Hong Kong as a child. I'm sure you heard that phrase, right?

37:31 Speaker 2 Yeah.

37:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Once a shliach, always a shliach. On the other hand, I'm trying to be practical here. You know what? My kids are getting older. My oldest is already 12.

37:41 Speaker 2 Right.

37:42 Speaker 1 You know, let's be practical here. Chinuch wasn't easy for us. It was probably the biggest struggle. It was probably the only thing that still made me, made me... reminded me I was in shlichus, you know? It was-

37:54 Speaker 2 Right

37:54 Speaker 1 ... that I, out, out of a Frum community that... And there's other aspects. There's also the psychological aspect. Can I handle s- starting over from scratch-

38:03 Speaker 2 Right

38:03 Speaker 1 ... emotionally?

38:04 Speaker 2 Right.

38:06 Speaker 1 Um, I was afraid if I went to a new place, I might be thinking about, you know, you know, regretting the fact that I had a beautiful set-up community and had to start over from scratch.

38:15 Speaker 2 Right.

38:16 Speaker 1 I, I didn't feel that was a healthy lifestyle.

38:18 Speaker 2 To constantly chase what you had there-

38:21 Speaker 1 Yeah

38:21 Speaker 2 ... somewhere else.

38:22 Speaker 1 Yeah.

38:22 Speaker 2 Right.

38:23 Speaker 1 Um, you know, the, uh, it was very torn, but the, my ultimate decision was no. I, I, I didn't feel that, uh, for my personal emotional, um, situation or for my kids' educational situation, that would be best to go on shlichus.

38:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:44 Speaker 1 You know? There's different stages in a person's life. You know, I'm going now, I... You know, what I told myself then was let's face reality. I'm a family at this point with six children, and when I'm moving somewhere, my id- ideology cannot be the only part of it.

39:03 Speaker 2 Hmm.

39:03 Speaker 1 There's six children here, you know? I, I don't know if I was obligated to think when I got married how my children will look and what health conditions they will be in, and which type of therapy they might need. My oblig- I, I think I did the right thing to let my, uh, ideology let me go on shlichus, and I, I would stay there forever if I can.

39:25 Speaker 2 Right.

39:26 Speaker 1 But if I have to start over, let's be pr- let's look at the table right now. What's going on over here?

39:31 Speaker 2 Right.

39:32 Speaker 1 Clearly, some of my kids belong in a smaller class but a real school-

39:36 Speaker 2 Right

39:36 Speaker 1 ... not, not being homeschooled. And you know, I... It was pretty black and white, w- you know, what the right thing would probably be for my family.

39:44 Speaker 2 Right.

39:44 Speaker 1 What would be the best thing? I know the right thing is the right thing to say, but the best thing for my family, you know? And I decided, you know what? At some point I decided if, if I don't win this court case, I'm moving back to United States. That's the country I know.

39:58 Speaker 2 Right.

39:58 Speaker 1 That's where my family and friends are.

40:00 Speaker 2 Right.

40:01 Speaker 1 And I'm gonna move into a Frum community. What I'll do, I, I had no clue.

40:05 Speaker 2 Right.

40:05 Speaker 1 But that was the decision I made then.

40:07 Speaker 2 Right.

40:08 Speaker 1 Not an easy decision because, 'cause you're born a Chabad. You don't understand what's going on probably in my brain.

40:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, everybody listening to this also pretty much.

40:16 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:17 Speaker 2 Yeah. I grew up on shlichus, so I definitely understand-

40:19 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:19 Speaker 2 ... what you're talking about. I mean, but it, it does sound a little bit like we were talking earlier, that in many ways, things that you had blocked or kept out of mind while you're on shlichus, suddenly when that shlichus is, comes to an end against your will-

40:38 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:38 Speaker 2 ... but that, that, that choice that you had made to go on shlichus to this-

40:44 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:44 Speaker 2 ... town, which then kept certain considerations off the table, that choice was now back... Now you had-

40:52 Speaker 1 Yeah

40:52 Speaker 2 ... another choice, and all those considerations came back on the table.

40:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

40:56 Speaker 2 Right? And yeah, I mean, some... A shliach once told me, um, you know, he was r- when I spoke to him, he was already, uh, he already had many of his children back on shlichus. Like, so he was a, he had been a shliach probably for 50 years.

41:09 Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

41:10 Speaker 2 Yeah. And he told me, he told me... And he was still on shlichus when I spoke to him. And he told me, and this was not on the podcast, this was, um, it was somebody else that I had met, and he told me, "Look, in many ways, the beauty of shlichus is that you make a choice once when you're very young."

41:25 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:26 Speaker 2 "And that's the last time you make that kind of choice. It's for the rest of your life. You don't have to constantly..." Right? Which is what we were talking about earlier. You, you make a choice, and you take things off the table. Never-

41:35 Speaker 1 Right

41:36 Speaker 2 ... never to be reconsidered again.

41:37 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:38 Speaker 2 Right? But then against your will, in this case, you are now being forced to reconsider it, right? And, and I, and I think, you know, I, I think that's just a very... I think this is a, a, just another kind of reminder about the sacrifice of shlichus, the, the kind of things that the mind basically-

41:58 Speaker 1 Yeah

41:58 Speaker 2 ... has to shut off.

41:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:00 Speaker 2 Right?

42:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

42:01 Speaker 2 And so, so you, you ended up, uh, you end up... We're sitting in your office now. You ended up deciding to go into life insurance.

42:09 Speaker 1 Yeah.

42:09 Speaker 2 But, but, um, we were, we were, we, we were talking in shul, we were talking in shul about it. I'm trying to remember exactly how we were, 'cause it was very interesting. It was a very interesting conversation at the time. Um, I would... Just, just to explain, Yossi lives in Pomona, and I, I came to-

42:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

42:27 Speaker 2 ... I, we, I'm here with family just for Yom Tov, so I don't-

42:30 Speaker 1 Makes sense. Yeah

42:30 Speaker 2 ... we don't live, we don't live in the same community, but-

42:33 Speaker 1 Yeah

42:33 Speaker 2 ... I, we spent some time over Yom Tov in shul.

42:36 Speaker 1 And what intrigued really the conversation in shul is I, looking at your father.

42:39 Speaker 2 Right.

42:40 Speaker 1 And I, I see someone in a similar situation like me. I know it sounds strange, you know?

42:44 Speaker 2 Right.

42:44 Speaker 1 Different parts of the world, different generations and all that, but when I was going through this, I was, I was actually thinking myse- to myself, "Very soon my chi- my oldest child will become bar mitzvah."

42:57 Speaker 2 Right.

42:57 Speaker 1 "I will be forced to send him across the globe for him never to come home again."

43:02 Speaker 2 Right.

43:03 Speaker 1 He's not-

43:04 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and-

43:06 Speaker 2 That, that's me

43:07 Speaker 1 ... yeah. And I mentioned that to, to, to your father, and he said, "That's exactly what happened to you and all my kids," you know?

43:12 Speaker 2 Yeah.

43:12 Speaker 1 "We lived in Hong Kong, and we had to send them abroad never to come home again."

43:16 Speaker 2 Right.

43:17 Speaker 1 I mean- I remember thinking about it, will my child even wanna come home for Yom Tov?

43:22 Speaker 2 Right.

43:22 Speaker 1 He's gonna be torn about wanting to see his parents and wanting to have the fun of wherever he is-

43:27 Speaker 2 Right

43:27 Speaker 1 ... and experiencing, you know, normal from life.

43:30 Speaker 2 Right.

43:31 Speaker 1 And it's gonna happen very fast. The next child, the next child, before you know it, in a, in a few years from now, you know, three out of our six kids are out of the house, and then eventually all of them, and they're not coming back. I, I do not see how my children are coming back to this crazy place to live.

43:46 Speaker 2 Right.

43:46 Speaker 1 So it's really... it's like forever. Now, u- of course, we'll try to make it work. We'll go visit them. They'll hopefully come visit us.

43:54 Speaker 2 Right.

43:56 Speaker 1 But it was also a reality when I was thinking about a new shlichus, and I, and I came over to your father and I asked him if he ever thought about, you know, if it ever went into his mind, and I didn't get a clear answer, but I understand at some point it did go through your father's mind that this is a really tough, um, part of shlichus where your kids leave and, you know, one day you come home, you're in Hong Kong, and there's no kids home.

44:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. Uh-

44:20 Speaker 1 And they're in all different parts of the world, and it's, you know...

44:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, look, I, I don't wanna talk for my father. I do intend to have him on the podcast one day-

44:31 Speaker 1 Yeah

44:31 Speaker 2 ... when, when, when he, when, when it works out for him. Um, you know, uh, look, I, I don't know that I'm the one to have that conversation with him anyway.

44:43 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:43 Speaker 2 It's, it's a very raw conversation.

44:45 Speaker 1 Right.

44:47 Speaker 2 You know, I don't know if I mentioned it on the podcast already, but I certainly did mention it to you.

44:52 Speaker 1 Right.

44:52 Speaker 2 This, this same shliach that I told you about-

44:55 Speaker 1 Right

44:55 Speaker 2 ... who, who spoke of shlichus in the most beautiful way I'd ever seen.

44:59 Speaker 1 Yeah.

44:59 Speaker 2 And, and I felt that he meant it.

45:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:01 Speaker 2 I also intend to have him on the podcast, but until I do, I don't wanna say who, who, who... I don't wanna say his name. And, you know, he, he interestingly, when he was choosing to go on shlichus, he had options. Like, his father was a very well-off man with a business, and he wanted him, he was older, he, he wanted to come back. And some of his friends, also Lovavitch Habad at the time, had gone back to their father's business.

45:29 Speaker 1 Right.

45:29 Speaker 2 And he chose to go on shlichus. It was a real choice for him.

45:32 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:32 Speaker 2 And, and 50 years later, he, he, he spoke about it with such love and such, um, such... yeah, just love and, and positive, posi- positivity.

45:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:43 Speaker 2 Like, like it was such a beautiful way of, of articulating it. But I also know, I don't know if he told me, but one of his kids told me that, that his, his... that them going away f- um, them going away as young children for chinuch was the hardest thing for their parents.

46:06 Speaker 1 Right.

46:06 Speaker 2 And that their mother would nev- whenever they brought it up in conversation, she would shut down the conversation and leave the room. She couldn't-

46:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:14 Speaker 2 ... she, years later, she couldn't handle talking about it.

46:17 Speaker 1 Right.

46:18 Speaker 2 You know, so I, I don't think this is what this podcast is about.

46:21 Speaker 1 Right.

46:22 Speaker 2 But, but, but w- what you're talking about, to me at least, is, you know, there, the... this is not a conversation about, like, is it worth it, you know, uh, the c-

46:31 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:31 Speaker 2 ... the, the cost of shlichus and, and chinuch and things like that.

46:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:35 Speaker 2 It's a, it's a valuable conversation.

46:36 Speaker 1 Right.

46:37 Speaker 2 But in many ways, you didn't even get to that. You, you-

46:39 Speaker 1 Right

46:39 Speaker 2 ... your ha- your, your hand was forced, and you didn't have to deal with that. You were thinking about it. To me, what's fascinating about the conversation is the contrast of the things that the FSB basically forced out of your mind-

46:50 Speaker 1 Yeah

46:50 Speaker 2 ... in a much more tac... like, a legal way. Like, "If you don't... If you think about this, you're gonna be in legal trouble." And the things that we take out of our mind or shluchim take out of their mind-

47:00 Speaker 1 Right

47:01 Speaker 2 ... you know, in order to facilitate shlichus, right?

47:04 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:04 Speaker 2 The, there, there are considerations that are taken out of... that, that are taken out. Like you said, you weren't sure if my father thought about it or not. Of course, he thought about it.

47:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

47:12 Speaker 2 But he also didn't think about it.

47:13 Speaker 1 Right.

47:14 Speaker 2 Right? There has... 'cause you cannot, you, you cannot think about it head on.

47:18 Speaker 1 Right.

47:18 Speaker 2 If you do, you're, you're gonna be in trouble from a different side, right?

47:21 Speaker 1 Right.

47:23 Speaker 2 You know, so...

47:24 Speaker 1 I, I, I think, I think it's probably healthy for a certain shluchim not to give too much thought to cer- certain topics that just you can't really do anything about it.

47:31 Speaker 2 Right.

47:32 Speaker 1 Um, it, you know, the institution of shlichus is an inc- an incredible one.

47:36 Speaker 2 Right.

47:37 Speaker 1 And it's a noble one, and I think, uh, it's the, it's the institution that will bring Mashiach.

47:42 Speaker 2 Right.

47:42 Speaker 1 Right? I, I think, I think, um... I, I really hope that very, uh, many young people are gonna be idealistic about going to shlichus into every possible place, every type of shlichus possible. Um, and there's gonna be sacrifice with that.

47:55 Speaker 2 Right.

47:56 Speaker 1 Um, m- but ultimately, you know, I think there, I think there has to be a balance with, um, you know... I, I think in my situation, I was, I was allowed to think, and I think it would've been pretty much a crime if I w- I wouldn't think.

48:10 Speaker 2 Right.

48:11 Speaker 1 You know, the, you know, the thought process, what are you gonna do when your children are out of the house, is not necessarily something a 22-year-old has to think.

48:19 Speaker 2 Right.

48:20 Speaker 1 But I would say to any shliach in my situation, you know... I had some friends that were telling me, "You know, you're so passionate about shlichus, and you enjoy it, that you're not gonna enjoy anything else. Just here's an option for you. Try out this place, try out that place." And, um, I had to force myself to actually not think about that. I mean, not, not think about it, but, like-

48:40 Speaker 2 Ah, interesting

48:40 Speaker 1 ... be-

48:41 Speaker 2 So that's the reverse.

48:42 Speaker 1 I had to start saying, "Let's be objective over here."

48:44 Speaker 2 Right.

48:45 Speaker 1 You know, I'm in a different stage in life, and let's be realistic. I come to a new place.

48:50 Speaker 2 Right.

48:50 Speaker 1 I'm gonna work very hard to establish it, and five years into it, three out of my six kids are out of the house.

48:55 Speaker 2 Right.

48:57 Speaker 1 And h- you know, there's gonna be emotional feelings involved, which I'm sure every shliach to a certain extent has.

49:03 Speaker 2 For sure.

49:04 Speaker 1 Is it the right thing? Is it the best thing? Right or wrong is also objective. I mean, to say could be it would've been the right thing.

49:11 Speaker 2 Right.

49:13 Speaker 1 But, um, I, I think... I th- I th- I thought then it was very important to have a few options on the table and consider them equally.

49:20 Speaker 2 Right.

49:21 Speaker 1 You know, you know, y- I, I... you know, idealism cannot be in the way sometimes of practicality, you know?

49:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. I, I mean, look, I think ult-

49:32 Speaker 1 Yeah

49:32 Speaker 2 ... I think ultimately there, there, there's no need for you to defend your decision.

49:35 Speaker 1 Yeah.

49:35 Speaker 2 You know? Um, I'm sure there are other private considerations that you're not even talking about because they're private, right?

49:42 Speaker 1 Right.

49:42 Speaker 2 And, and, and, and that's, that's f- you know-

49:45 Speaker 1 Right

49:45 Speaker 2 ... ultimate- like, uh, this is not a place for, for, you know, for, for you to defend yourself. There's no need for that.

49:51 Speaker 1 Right.

49:52 Speaker 2 Um, I, I think what was interesting to me from the conversation in shul was, I think I asked you if you have any, um, bitterness toward-

50:02 Speaker 1 No bitterness at all. No

50:03 Speaker 2 ... right. Right, right. And you told me something which was very interesting, which was, "Look, I, I know that if I'd started my life insurance business or any other business when I was younger and with less expenses and, you know,in my 20s, I would be, I would be coasting now, or I could have, I, I, I could have been coasting." I mean, there's no guarantees in anything. Right, right. "But I could have been coasting, and, you know, because I came to business much later, I have to hustle," right? Right. You said that. But nevertheless, I look back, uh, you know- Yeah ... talk about that a little bit. You know, I came into life insurance the same time as I started. There's a few other, um, young Hasidim that started, you know, got the license with me, and we're, we, we speak to each other all the time. Right. Um, some of them live in Williamsburg, um, some of them Monsey. The question I got many times is, you know, "Yossi, I mean, you're killing it. None of us just, you know, within one year you already have one employee. Two years later you have, you, you, you have an office. Three years later, another employee. And it, it seems like you're doing well. You're selling a lot of insurance. Don't you regret that you didn't start this when you were 20? You'd be king. You'd be king now. You realize that," you know? Right. And it's hard to not hear that question because

51:17 Speaker 2 you come in, there's tuition for six kids. I had to have a house. I couldn't live in an apartment anymore. Um, there's a certain lifestyle you're used to. Um, you need, uh... I have a large family. And in a way, in, in any business, to start when you're young and have very few expenses and, you know, and then, you know, you turn 40 years old, and there's, you know, there's money where, you know, there's money sitting in the bank, and there's money spilling everywhere, and who-whatever, whatever the dreams a person might have. If m- uh, okay. Yeah? When it comes to money, there's no question- Yeah ... that getting a head start when you're younger- Yeah ... is, is a better idea. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I didn't ignore the question every time I got it. Yeah. But my answer to that is, to myself, I don't have to, you know, answer anyone, but my, for me, I, I, the way I really look at it is like, you know what? It was worth. This is the sacrifice you have to pay to be able to be a part of this great mission of shlichus. Right. Um, I would never, if I had to choose over again, I would never choose going into business right away over later on in life to give up those 12 amazing years. Wow. You know? Hmm. One of the best years of my life. Yes, it was hard. Right. But in a, it was an incredible part of my life,

52:30 Speaker 2 and it was worth the sacrifice, and this, you know, this is the price you pay. The price you pay. Right. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Right? That's what you're saying. I mean, it's- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... it's a beautiful sentiment. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So there's zero bitterness of starting late because I, I, I got something 100 times more than that. Wow. Um, there was ze-zero bus-bitterness leaving shlichus because, to be honest, but, you know, eventually I was arrested, actually. I, I, I didn't manage to leave. I, I lost at the Supreme Court, and I, I was not ready to leave. I had to, like, train local people to take over the community. I didn't feel like just dropping it. Um, a new... It was very hard to find a new shliach. It took only a few months ago, so I moved there. For five years straight, there was local people running the community successfully, and I wasn't ready to leave. And at some point they actually arrested me and put me on a plane and sent me to America. I have to say at the- And your family was already in America? No. Um, my family had to stay there a little longer. My wife had to finish selling the house, close, you know- So they didn't arrest... Oh, they were never accused. They were never accused of- No, only I was a terrorist. But, um, no, but, but they, they- This is a very chauvinist FSB you're talking about here. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

53:38 Speaker 2 My wife was clearly told she's gonna have to leave, and she's gonna lose all her rights and, you know. Okay. But, um, but they didn't arrest her, and she was nervous about it. Hmm. But practically we had to, you know, close shop. And- It seems to be fair that they weren't out to get you. They just wanted you out. Yeah. They, they- They, they weren't, they weren't out to put you in jail. No, no, no. They were out to just get you out- No ... for whatever reason. They really hate foreigners. Right. I mean, that, that's also... I mean, you just have to be honest. Yeah. It, it wasn't like anti-Semitism, we're gonna hurt these people. It was just like, "Get you out of here." It was really foreigners. Right. At the same time that they were trying to kick me out, the local government gave our, our shul a huge piece of land- Oh ... to build a new building. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is anti-Semitism, but I'm watching. I was there. The local Islamic community lost every clergy they had much earlier than us because- Who are foreign ... who are foreign. Yeah. They banned almost every American religion in Russia. They only allow one or two forms of Christianity today in Russia. Right. Almost every humanitarian aid, um, organization in Moscow was banned. The embassy, the American Embassy had to take back 750 workers because they were foreign. Well, look- Right ... Lubavitch paranoia comes from somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It

54:46 Speaker 2 comes from somewhere. So, I, I mean, I think a, a system that's trying to get rid of every foreigner will eventually get rid of some rabbis too. Right. That, that's what I felt. That's... They were n- They were not, they were not even mean to me. Even on the plane, they were the... As they were arresting me, they were, they were trying to be nice to me. Right. You know? "Do you need anything? Do you need water or this?" You know? Right. They were not trying to be mean to me or to my community, so I don't know what's really behind this. It's hard for me to understand. It sounds like you do. Yeah. It sounds like you have an idea. Foreigners. Yeah. It's still hard for me to understand that also. Uh. Ultimately, I was there helping local people. 15 people had a job thanks to me. People were getting food and clothes thanks to me. Right. People had religion, which is a very good thing, thanks to me. Paranoia is a very strong thing. Yeah, I hear. Yeah. I guess our, you know... I mean, the Lubavitchers know what paranoia is. Paranoia, yeah. Yeah. So I guess there's a certain paranoia there, yeah, in the culture, you know? So- Yeah ... um, on the plane, I was happy. Hmm. I was actually very happy. I wasn't sad, you know? I was... I looked back, I was like, "Wow, I'm gonna go to the rebbe and say thank you for the 12 years of

55:47 Speaker 2 shlichus." Um- Hmm ... I was not bitter about being... And there was, there is what to be bitter about, you know, because I just built a, a house. I lived in an apartment. I just finished building a house. Um- And I can go on and on from personal level or for community level- No, you were just seeing, you were just seeing the fruits of your success. Yeah. To me. Just saying it, yeah. Um, you know, some, you know, I, I could go through each, each program in my community and say like how it finally started, you know? Right. You know? Right. W- working out, like finally the minyan could work even without me, you know, showing up exactly on time. Finally, the shiurim are working out. If I'm not there, someone else starts giving the class. Right. Um, e- every single program was like that and... But you know what I lo- I, I... On the plane I was actually happy. I thought it was a, it was a beautiful opportunity to be on shlichus, and, um, I succeeded through my mission, you know? And now it's, you know, um, "Lo eilecha..." We say in Pirkei Avot, "Lo eilecha hamelacha ligmor." Right. Not everything is my job to finish. Right. You know? I'll still support the community from as much as I can from here, and, um, there's no bitterness of the, you know? So now you're a donor to your community? Yeah. I love it. Yeah. All right. But, um, so yeah. So, you

57:04 Speaker 2 know. Yeah. It was, it was, you know, in a way it was, it was a nice opportunity to be on shlichus, and I think it's a nice opportunity for my family to have also this lifestyle. Um, it was a little scary. I'm not gonna say it wasn't. I had no clue on the plane what I'm doing next. I didn't know I'm doing life insurance. Right. I had no clue. Right. Look, okay. I mean, I, I think in many ways that's, that's like, that's a podcast more like for, for entrepreneurial bu- Yeah ... uh, podcast of like how you figured it out at that age. I, I definitely personally have interest in it, but I, I like, I don't think it's... Like for this- Right ... conversation, what I'm more interested in is the Lubavitch identity aspect. Because we were talking earlier- Yeah ... before we started- Right ... that to me in many ways, I mean, this podcast is, is a, is obviously about Lubavitch identity. Right. But to me the crux of the question, um, or where the question becomes more obvious is, um, when you're not on shlichus. Because when you're on shlichus it's pretty straightforward. Um- Right ... what, what, what it mean to be a, what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? It means to be a sh- on shlichus and to- Yeah ... to, you know, to, to be „memale" and, and to fulfill the demands of shlichus. Right. And, and that more or less is at least a

58:09 Speaker 2 general idea is there, right? Yeah. Exactly how each „shliach" goes about it is maybe a different question, but the general idea is there and hasn't really changed because until Moshiach comes- Right ... the definition is there. But when you're not on shlichus, what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher? You know, there the question becomes i- what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher today, right? Right. That becomes more of a, of a, of, of a question it seems. Yeah. And so, you know, you're talking about that, that flight which ha- ha- it sounds v- you know, is, is very dramatic. You know, like you, you're basically been forced out of, you know, ba- ba- „ba'alkarchach", you've been forced out of, out of your, out of your role and out of your, out of your life path, your, your, your life path essentially. And, you know, you, you, you are now looking at the future. You have to think about how you're gonna support your family, right? The, the life insurance. But you're probably also thinking about, "Hey, what, what does it mean? Like, where does this leave me as a Lubavitcher?" Yeah. That question was in my mind, uh, at least for the first, uh, two, three years. It was, it was on my mind the whole time. S- so what- And it was very complex. Right. So, so describe that a little bit. Very complex, you know. A part of me... I, I can't say I felt totally comfortable not being on shlichus.

59:24 Speaker 2 A part of me felt that there's something missing. I'm not giving. Right. And, you know, I'm living in a place where there isn't much to give. There's like every Chesed organization- It's too easy. You know? Um, there's, there's, there's, um... It, it was, it was, it was a very big question. You know, what, what, you know? And I don't have the answer in one word to your question, but the way I could say from my perspective, you know, I think as Hasidim we have to be ready for everything. Right. You know? From a shlichus aspect is just because someone's not on shlichus, if you have a neighbor five houses down that might not have matzah, go over to them. Right. Um, you have someone 10 houses away that might not hear shofar. You know, it might be hard to try to juggle family shul and everything else on Rosh Hashanah, but find that time and go blow shofar. You know, you have someone that wants to learn Hasidus with you, and I've had that numerous times here. If you have the time, don't sacrifice your family obviously for this, but if you could, you know, make a shiur with them. That's from a more, um, outreach aspect. But then there's a personal aspect, you know. Hasidim, Hasidism didn't come to uproot Judaism. It came to enhance Judaism. Right. Uh, you know, the basic tenants of Judaism was al- are always there. You know, Hashem created the world with, you know, we wake up, and we're

1:00:55 Speaker 2 supposed to provide for our families. He wants it to be that way. That was a natural way things should be. Right. Um, people learning Torah their whole life or s- s- um, going on shlichus their whole life is a beautiful thing and a ac- an added bonus if some individuals can do that. But Hashem created the world that your typical Yid is gonna wake up and work. He wants you to be working for your parnasah. He doesn't wanna give you bread for free. Right. He wants you to take care of your kids, daven with a minyan, learn Gemara or whatever topic of Torah that you l- enjoy learning. Makim shliach beChafetz, and, um, with, you know, you know, Hash- Shulchan Aruch pretty much has our lifestyle, you know, 90% of the day already cut out for us. Right. Right? So whether you're a Hasid or not, these things should be done. Right. And they're not easy, but every person could strive to do that. Mm. You know, the point of Hasidus is a little bit like the cream on top of the cake. Right. Like, you know, you learned Gemara that day, but now you have opportunity to, to know to be mekushar to the Rebbe and do Chitas on Ramba- Now you have the opportunity to learn Chassidus. I, I think, I think a Chassid today is trying to be mechushar to the Rebbe, whether it's going to the ayel, learning Cha- his, uh, Chassidus or doing his takanas, whatever that takana was, you

1:02:18 Speaker 2 know? Right. Um, you know, he's speaking about, you know, going tallucha, whatever it is, was yesterday. Do, do you feel- And- Do you, do you feel less of a Lubavitcher today than you did on shlichus? No. Not one ounce less, no. Hmm. Did I have a time that I had those, um, complex thoughts? Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. In the beginning, I felt like, you know, like a real Lubavitcher. I should be doing more of this and more of that, and more of, you know? And, um, you know, and I'm saying Ha- you know, Hashem gave every person a certain amount of koach. Right. Right? Right. You know, I'm saying if you wanted every person, you know, He gave the koach for each person to do what, what they could do. Right. If He wanted us to do more, He would give a person more koach, you know? Right. You could've make the world 28 hours in a day instead of 24, but there's a certain amount of hours in a day. Right. And y- you know? Yeah. I mean, I think what I'm- Yeah ... like, what, what, what, what I, what I hear from your story, and I, I feel like the, the lesson, the lesson I get from your story is, you know, s- up to, up to, um, up to Gemara Talmuds even, even in the, the late '80s- Yeah ... most Lubavitchers were not on shlichus. Most Lubavitchers were not on shlichus, and it was only in the mid '80s that,

1:03:43 Speaker 2 that really a sizable group of people even went on shlichus. Correct. Correct. Right? So the idea that the only way to be a Lubavitcher is to be on shlichus is, is, is, is, is a recent thing, even in the era of Shli, let alone in the earlier eras. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And, you know, why it happened that shlichus became so dominant, uh, you know, is a different discussion probably. Um, I would, I would guess that the main reason is that especially after Gemara Talmuds- Hmm ... it was much easier to understand yourself as a Lubavitcher and what it means to be a Lubavitcher on shlichus than, than not on shlichus. 1,000%. I think, I think that's- For sure ... for sure a, a large factor, right? And, and what that does, I think it, I think it, it's in many ways generates an immense amount of good because a lot of people go on shlichus, and they do a lot of great things on shlichus. But what it does also is it creates a status quo of to be a Lubavitcher is to be on shlichus. Like, but if, if someone is asking themselves, "What should I do with my life?" Automatically shlichus, right? And on one hand, that creates a very powerful force because it becomes the norm. Yeah. Right? But what it also does is it takes away the choice, and it takes away the realization that, you know, there, there, there's a choice to go on shlichus. There's also

1:05:02 Speaker 2 a choice to not go on shlichus, and you have to assume the burden of your choice one way or another, right? Correct. Agree with you. There's, there's a way to, there's a... So, so, you know, when, when it, when it's a norm, and you see it as a norm, so if you go, okay, uh, you're doing what you're-- you, you're being normal. You're doing what you're supposed to do. And if you don't, you're being abnormal, right? You're, you're, you're not doing what you're supposed to do, right? Yeah. Uh, but what you're describing to me is shlichus was a choice in the beginning, and it was clear to you that because it was a norm as well, it was clear to you that this was the right thing to do. Correct. And so you could put yourself fully into it. Right. When you were forced out of it, it became clear to you one way or another that- Yeah ... you had to choose a different path, and right? Right. And because of that clarity- Right ... you were able to assume the weight of your choice, right? Right. And say, "Okay, this is, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I have to figure out the best way to do it." Right. Right? This is not some plan B, let's say. It's not some, I'm not some, I'm not a half a Chassid because of what I'm doing. And, and, and the danger of that to me also of thinking of like a half

1:06:15 Speaker 2 a Chassid, it's not just like, oh, you're gonna feel less, less k- you're gonna lose a little bit of morale. Right. Once you go down that road, if I'm already a half a Chassid, so then why am I even bothering with any of it? Exactly. Right? Right. It's very easy, and I can speak this from my own experience. Right. It's very easy to, to, okay, if I, if I, if I'm not a shliach anymore, and I c- and I don't have the, and like I'm, and I'm sub, subpar to what I expected to be, so let me just throw it all out. There's no point. Right. Right? That's a danger, right? That's the danger of it, and it, it, it's also wrong. Right. It's, it's flat out wrong. Right. There, there are choices that people make. Those choices are informed by their realities. Yeah. Right? And when it's possible, like you're saying, when you're 24 and you're thinking about life, it maybe it's not your responsibility to think of every possibility that comes out 12 years- Yeah ... 'cause nobody knows what's gonna happen in 12 years from now, right? Right. No one. And you start a business, you don't know you're gonna be successful. Right. You don't know anything, so you, you do what is a- at hand, you, with the best information available. Right. But when you're 36 or whatever, however old you were, and you're choosing now, and you're, you, you have to choose a new path or a new, a new,

1:07:20 Speaker 2 a new, yeah, a new path, and you choose a path that you choose, there's value to that choice as well. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. It's not falling off the path. Yeah. It's a different path. Yeah. But I would like to add that, uh, you know, I think it's healthy for every young person to consider shlichus. Yeah. Um, if you go back in the Lubavitch ideology, going from the beginning, is Chassidim were, were ready to, you know, to be bottled to the Rebbe. Right. And they'll do, do to, you know, Chabad Chassid was someone who's willing to do something, you know, beyond normal because this, you know, 'cause that's his Not all of them. There was a, but there was a core of Hasidim that were- Right ... that were, that were willing to, you know, really do what's crazy and sacrifice themselves and their family for the larger cause. Right. And, you know, I, I think, I think, uh, the Chabad theology, you know, does demand that the Rebbe want shlichas, that we, that we take into consideration, um, uh, the, the, the lifestyle that we lived as Hasidim all these years. Should we actually go on shlichas? I think, you know, I think every person has to make that decision for themselves. Right. You could be 100% a Hasid doing business or doing anything else that you feel is the right thing for you. I, I think the ultimate decision is really, I think the Rebbe explains it in the Sichah that every person

1:08:57 Speaker 2 has their mission in the world. Right. And your mission is really based on certain facts about your life, your talents, the education you got, the place you are. Mm-hmm. Right? So a person has to be practical, you know? Right. If you're really good at computers, it, it's very possible that God wants you to actually do computers. Right. Uh, there's a reason he gave you that talent, and the Rebbe pointed this out many times, Hasidus point this out, and, and it makes sense. Right. You know? So, but, um, but I like the institution of shlichas. I would like, I would like this generation, um- Right ... I would like, I, I would like to see it not be in either extreme. Right. Like, I would like... You know, I find sometimes there's some young people that don't even give a, you know, a second thought to it. Right. Think about it for a moment. You know, if it... And then I find some people that they feel, like, obligated to go. Also think about that for a moment. If you're not gonna enjoy it, if you're not gonna be good at it for whatever reason, if it's not gonna work out with your wife, ch- children, and other factors, that's a great ideology, but not everyone has to be a Rosh Yeshiva, not everyone has to be a Shliach. Right. You know? Right. You know? Rosh... You know? You'll do what you have to do, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Look, I, I- Yeah ... I, I'm

1:10:09 Speaker 2 not in any way... It, there's always a danger when you critique something, it sounds like you're- Yeah ... you're, 'cause you're only talking about, like, you're pushing back at something and you're like, so you're not really- No ... you're not explaining the pro. So I'm glad you, I'm glad you did that. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I, I agree with you. I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I think there's, there, there's, there's, there's tremendous beauty to shlichas. There's tremendous depth to it. It's, it's, it's... There, there's something very, very, very special about it. Right. Right? And I don't say that just to be... I, I believe that. Yeah, yeah. I believe that. Um, I believe that. And, and, and when... And even in your story, I feel that. Right. The 12 years that you were there and, and the way you look back at it today, even though there are, you know, complications- Right ... looking back at it, you still feel that way, and that's what I feel from you, right? So, so I, I definitely resonate to that. Um, to me, in a way, when you think of it as a choice and not as a status quo, what- 100% ... it, it only amplifies, it only makes it more beautiful, right? Yeah. Because, because this is, this is a beautiful, this... You are now, you are... You own it. Yeah. You, you own it. You own it. Yeah. And, and, and you are fulfilling what you, what, what you feel you should

1:11:23 Speaker 2 be fulfilling. Right. Right? And- Yeah. You're saying it, you're saying it in very clear words, yeah. Yeah. So, so, so- And it should definitely be a choice. It should, it should... I, I, I think young shlichim today, I hope they're looking at it as a choice, and that, like, the way you say it, that they own it 'cause they feel this is what they wanna do, this is what they're good at- Right ... this is what their life mission is, you know? Right. And, and- Yeah ... the flip side of that is that when you choose something else, you choose that also with the full weight of it. It's not just the negation of something else. Right. It's not just the negation of shlichas, right? Right. You're choose, you're choosing, you're choosing that way of life, and you're finding the potential in that too. I mean, Hasidus talks about Hashgacha Pratit, right? That every single thing in the world is not just a secondary thing for something else, but that itself is watched over by the Aibishter, right? That's the whole argu- uh, one of the- Yeah ... main arguments of Hasidus, that you don't have to explain the leaf falling down for something else, but the leaf itself falling down is for the leaf, right? Right. Right? And, and, and the breeze is not so that you should have... No, the breeze is for the breeze. Everything, even if you didn't have a special connection to Hashgacha Pratit, but Hashgacha Pratit, Pratit is on

1:12:39 Speaker 2 everything in the world, right? Correct. So why does that end by Lubavitchers, right? There, there, there is a, there is a point in your life, there's a purpose to your life, there is a vision for your life that's godly and divine in however you choose to live your life. Yeah, yeah. Right? Why did we cut it off and say- Yeah ... "If you're on shlichas, yes, and if you're not on shlichas, eh, maybe"? There's a, there's a purpose, and a purpose that goes- Yeah ... all the way up to the highest level, no matter how you live your life. And if someone listening to this says, "Oh, so you're negating shlichas," I would say that that's a misreading of what shlichas is. A shlichas that cannot, that an institution of shlichas that cannot tolerate choice and cannot, you know, becomes weakened by people choosing to opt in or to choose something else is a, is a, is an institution- Is a weak institution ... is a very weak institution A very weak, yeah. And, and, and it's not a vibrant in- it's, it's not an institution that will last- Yeah ... because what, what keeps something running is people choosing and, and, and- Yeah ... adding to it, not people following along with it because they feel- Yeah ... there's no other option. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. That's a part of being a Hasid, by the way. Is what? One of the uniqueness of Hasidus Chabad is that, uh, we use our brains, we ask

1:13:56 Speaker 2 questions, we choose. Right. We're each different, you know? We don't rely on the Rebbe to, to, to take us out, to save us or anything. Right. It's our work, you know? Right. Um, yeah. So I agree with you, you know, 100%. All right. So, uh- Thank you so much. It was very nice, uh- Uh, let me say something. Uh, uh, it's a very, very, uh, very, very inspiring conversation for me. It was, uh, very, very nice to, to meet you in person- Yeah ... yesterday, um, or the past two days. Um, I, I know you're not supposed to advertise life insurance or push it on people, but, uh, anybody looking for a life insurance agent, definitely recommend- Yeah ... uh, Rabbi Yossi Morozov here. Yeah. Thank you so much. And, uh, Hashem should bless you that you become the biggest donor of Ulyanovsk. Was it? Ulya, yeah. Ulyanovsk, yeah. Ulyanovsk. Ulyanovsk. All right. Thank you so much. Atah Chafri. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Zorn and Adav Har and is used with their permission.