Ep. 11 // "The Cost of Shlichus?" with Rabbi Levi Greenberg

00:00 Speaker 1 So she was complaining to my, to my father. She said, "You know, I, I went on shlichus in order to have chassidishe kids, but, but I, I don't see that, you know, happening." And my father told her, "That's not true. We didn't go on shlichus to have chassidishe kids. We went on shlichus because the Rebbe wants us to go and do a mission."

00:20 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-three. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All right. So, uh, we're here in Crown Heights, uh, in the, in the Kinos, in the heart of the Kinos. Um, we are in this apartment because we needed to find a pach shemen, a quiet space in Crown Heights during the Kinos, and we found it underneath the cracks. And so we are here. And I'm joined by Levi Greenberg, a good friend from back in the day in Yeshiva, who grew up and still lives in El Paso, Texas. Um, the way this conversation came to be is, um, a couple weeks ago, I released the episode with my brother Mendy, and, um, Levi reached out to me and told me that he had listened to the episode, and while he wasn't disagreeing with the episode, um, he felt that the, some of the ideas that we had discussed or some of the ideas that I had put forth, some of the theories I had put forth were not telling the f- whole story, that there's more to the story.

01:44 Speaker 1 Right.

01:44 Speaker 2 And to be honest, uh, I very much appreciate that feedback because you don't always want the feedback where someone agrees with everything that you say. First of all, 'cause you usually it's suspect who believes everything that you say. Uh, second of all, it's, y- you know, you either... I mean, for me at least, the, the best feeling is to have your idea tested and to have, and to hear, and to hear other ideas or to hear, hear what, you know, to, to, to, to have your idea pushed back at, um, as part of learning, that's part of growing, that's part of thinking. So I very much appreciated that, that Levi reached out. I very much appreciated how he reached out, and so I invited him to come on the podcast, and, uh, here we are. So, um, do you want me to lay out... I, I don't think I need to lay out what, what was said in the podcast. I think you could, you could say what w- what are the things that you remember from it and, uh, what you wanted to talk about. You know what? Why don't you first introduce yourself, where you're from, who you are, and so on. What do you do?

02:44 Speaker 1 So as you said, my name is Levi Greenberg. Um, I'm from El Paso, and still am from El Paso. I wasn't born in El Paso. I was born here in, you know, right next to Crown Heights, Brookdale Hospital. Uh, but three months later, my parents were sent on shlichus, or we were sent on shlichus, uh, to El Paso. And, um, I grew up there. I left home fairly early. I mean, it was before the time of the Shluchim Online School. You weren't able to learn online. And, um, I left when I was approximately ten years old, and I came back after I got married. You know, at, when I was twenty-five, we came back on shlichus to El Paso. Been there ever since.

03:25 Speaker 2 Right. Ever since. You're not that old. It's not that long ago.

03:28 Speaker 1 Twelve years?

03:30 Speaker 2 All right. Yeah. Need to make you feel that. Um, so, so what was it on the, on the c- on that podcast, in that conversation with my brother that, that-

03:40 Speaker 1 So it was a very interesting podcast, a very, uh, interesting story. Um, and as I mentioned, I'm not here to comment on anyone's journey, and everyone's journey is theirs. Um, but one of the, one of the theories or the ideas that you were, uh, discussing was that this concept of having, you know, a Lubavitcher couple go and be shluchim in some foreign place, in a foreign atmosphere, outside of Crown Heights, outside of Lubavitcher community, and then expect that the children who never really grew up in that atmosphere should be able to seamlessly transition into the system-

04:14 Speaker 2 Right

04:14 Speaker 1 ... for lack of a better word, or into just a, a regular yeshiva, uh, atmosphere, is an abstraction that doesn't necessarily work. Or I, I'm, you know, I'm not gonna nitpick all the, you know, anything that you said. I don't remember the exact words.

04:27 Speaker 2 You didn't remember the, the issues?

04:29 Speaker 1 Abstraction. Yeah. An, an abstraction that doesn't necessarily work or something like that.

04:34 Speaker 2 Right.

04:34 Speaker 1 Um, and so, so I felt that, uh, characterizing it that way, uh, as you said, is not showing the entire picture. Um, because while everyone has their journey, um, this concept of, you know, the Rebbe sending shluchim to places that are very foreign to, uh, you know, the Lubavitcher atmosphere, to say the least, um, and also to, to ensure that the chinuch of their children would not, uh, be compromised as a result, um, it does work. Uh, the quest- You know, and the question is, uh, how and why and whatever, and, and I'm not here to, uh, to set forth a path of how exactly it does work. But the fact of the matter is, if you look back at the past, what, 60, 70 years that it's been going on, um, there is tremendous success, specifically in that-

05:25 Speaker 2 Right

05:25 Speaker 1 ... in, in that line. So I felt that it was just important that while not, uh, pushing back at anyone's specific story, let's not characterize it as-

05:33 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

05:33 Speaker 1 ... you know, this is the situation with shlichus and chinuch.

05:38 Speaker 2 Fair enough. I mean, I, I, fair enough. I f- again, I appreciate, I apprec- I appreciate the pushback in itself. I also appreciate the, the guf of shluchim, the actual pushback. Um, my intention was not, um, to say that it cannot work or that it does not work. Um, what I meant was it does not have to work. Right. And, and, and I think that's what I meant by abstraction is that, you know, because on paper everything kind of checks out, you know. Like, you know, shluchim are, you know, diehard Lubavi- Lubavitchers or they're pure Lubavitchers, and so their kids that grow up on shlichus are even purer Lubavitchers. And so a pure Lubavitcher kid who grew up, not only went on shlichus but grew up on shlichus, obviously he'll fit into yeshivas. That all works on paper, but, you know, in, in, in, in, in real life where, um... And by real life I don't mean that it's more real than the abstraction, I just mean that it's the, the, the life, the, the, the reality of messy relationships and, and, and, you know, right, where-

06:44 Speaker 1 Goles, whatever.

06:45 Speaker 2 It's not even goles. It's, it's a fact that-

06:47 Speaker 1 El amaza

06:47 Speaker 2 ... it's a fact that, it's a fact that... Like I was talking to my brother, like, you know, a, a kid growing up grows up with a daily interaction with his classmates and his friends and, and the world around him. And, you know, it's, it's a famous, it's a famous, it's a famous story of, of, of the, you know, it's brought in philosophy, it's a famous story of the, of the cave, but I think it's also brought in Hasidus about, um, uh, it's a mashal of so- of s- of some sorts about goles. You just said goles, where you have a family that's in a pit for a, for a, you know, for a long time, and over generations they begin to get used to it, and someone tells them that there's a whole world out there. The whole world is out there. That is true. But for the child in the pit, it's an abstraction, right?

07:32 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

07:32 Speaker 2 And so that to me is what I was saying, not that it cannot work and not that it hasn't worked, but that it doesn't have to work.

07:40 Speaker 1 Right.

07:40 Speaker 2 And for many, it doesn't work, right? And, you know, was that an indictment of the system per se? Um, it was an indictment of the, of the, of a certain blindness in the system, right?

07:55 Speaker 1 Taking it for granted.

07:57 Speaker 2 No, but a certain blindness in the system. If peop- Um, you know, we c- we could spend now three hours trying to define what the system even means. I feel like the system is-

08:04 Speaker 1 I'm not here for that.

08:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, you're not here for that, a-a-and nobody listening to it is here for that either. A-and, and the reason why I feel like that's a useless conversation anyway is 'cause I always feel that the system is brought up usually to deflect from personal responsibility or more specific responsibility. So it's much easier to talk about this abstract monster. Like who exactly is the sy-

08:26 Speaker 1 Deep state

08:26 Speaker 2 ... is deep state. Who exactly is the system? Who is the guy? Who do we talk to? Where is the address of the system? Where, where is the complaint box for the system? Nobody has these answers. It's much easier just to punch into the air and talk about the system, right? So I, I don't think it's worth to talk about the system per se, but is this an indictment or is this a critique of a, of a, of a, of a perspective of a, is by, by Chinuch in schools or in general in our community where we assume that kids growing up on shlichus are, because they're Lubavitch on paper means that they're Lubavitch in the way that, that a kid that grew up in a large community is Lubavitch, right? We, we cannot, we cannot, um, forget about the real lived experienced identity for the kind of abstract identity. That, I mean, that's my point.

09:20 Speaker 1 Okay. Yeah, I understand that.

09:21 Speaker 2 Right.

09:22 Speaker 1 You know, it's, uh-

09:22 Speaker 2 Right. So y-you feel that y-you feel that, you feel that, that there's more, there's more, that there's another side to the story. So why don't you t- why don't you say, why don't you talk a little bit about th-that side of the story?

09:37 Speaker 1 So, I mean, let, let's put it this way. There, there's a lot of different shluchim out there, a lot of different circumstances, a lot of different realities. Uh, there are shluchim in larger cities, smaller cities, some that have Chinuch. I'm talking about brick-and-mortar schools that they can send their kids to, whether they're a Lubavitch school or a frum school or, or anything. Um, and then there are those that have nothing, you know. And, and, you know, Baruch Hashem that there's a Shluchim Online School, and kids are able to get a Chinuch, and it does a tremendous job. And my kids now are on the Shluchim Online School, uh, because we don't have an option, you know, a viable option to send them to. Uh, when I was growing up, so we were in El Paso, there was an El Paso Hebrew Day School. Uh, a variation of it does exist today. Um, it's a not frum school at all. Um, it was co-ed obviously. And the f- when I was in first grade... When I was in kindergarten, I went there. When I was in first grade, I went for the entire day, but I transferred over to a, a different class. Uh, first and second grade, I was there the entire day, which means, you know, secular and, um, Limudei Kodesh. Uh, but the, the teachers that taught Limudei Kodesh for those classes were actually Shomer Shabbos, um, which was, which is interesting. I didn't realize, uh, until later that, um, that that's what

10:50 Speaker 1 my parents were specifically looking for, that at least whatever Yiddishkeit I'm learning anywhere else should be from someone who is, um, a Shomer Shabbos. But then, um, that couldn't continue, so I continued to go to the school for secular studies so that I should have some type of, um, social interaction. And my parents started to bring in, uh, post-seminary girls or seminary girls. You're talking here, what, uh, 1994 or '95, um, '96. And, uh, they, they came, and they would be there for the year. And, um, and they, they taught me. So they taught me Chumash, and they taught me, you know, all the regular things that, that you learn in school. Um, so I was tutored. So I would go to the day school for half the day for secular studies. I would come home, and I would learn, you know, Limudei Kodesh. When I was in fourth grade, my parents decided that, you know, I have to, I have to go to a normal school, a normal, uh, a regular Lubavitcher Chinuch. Um, so it was right after Pesach. My birthday is a little bit after Pesach. Uh, so I was nine. I was going on to 10, and they told me that they arranged that I should go and spend a month in Chicago to go to the cheder there. Um, and I did And Baruch Hashem, I mean, I don't know exactly who specifically to credit, but, you know, the, the, you know, the... My friends in class, they were amazing.

12:12 Speaker 1 Um, they embraced me, uh, right away. Like, I had friends immediately. Um, the, the teachers, uh, were amazing. Rabbi Aaron Wolf was the teacher in fourth grade. Um, and in fact, I was so comfortable, you know, being in his class, and he was so welcoming, actually, the next year, I, I boarded in his house, and I stayed there for four years.

12:30 Speaker 2 Really?

12:31 Speaker 1 From fifth through eighth grade. Um, that first month, so I was by cousins, uh, uh, the Greenbergs that lived in Chicago then. Um, they were wonderful. Um, but the kids were much younger, and, you know, I just wanted to be in a, in a, I guess, older family. Um, and so since that month worked out very well, so my parents decided, "Okay, continue there." And, uh, in fifth grade, that was my first regular year in the Cheder Lubavitch in Chicago, and it was, it was amaz- it was great.

12:57 Speaker 2 Was it hard to be away from home?

12:58 Speaker 1 Definitely.

12:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

12:59 Speaker 1 No, definitely it was, it was hard to be away from home. All the typical things about, you know, homesickness. I mean, I'm sure you-

13:04 Speaker 2 Homesickness

13:05 Speaker 1 ... you know exactly what this is.

13:06 Speaker 2 We're in the right, we're in the right place for homesick, yeah.

13:07 Speaker 1 Exactly. Oh, homesick for Lubavitch, but I'm saying you're-

13:10 Speaker 2 Yeah

13:10 Speaker 1 ... you grew up-

13:10 Speaker 2 Homesick for El Paso, in this case, yeah.

13:12 Speaker 1 You grew up-

13:13 Speaker 2 Homesick for El Paso

13:13 Speaker 1 ... uh, dealing with this as well, uh, I imagine.

13:16 Speaker 2 Uh, yeah, very much so. I, I mean, I, I, I really wanna hear more about it because, uh, I think this is something that, um, is really not discussed. I'm, I'm, I'm not sure why, but, um, this is... I mean, it, it's, it's a big, uh, like it, it's, it's, it's deep, deep down there in my psyche from my own experience. So that's why I'm asking you. Like, like, um, when y- y... I mean, it seems like you were very lucky 'cause this is very unusual to find a place that you would feel comfortable to stay for the next four years.

13:49 Speaker 1 Well, it wasn't my plan in fifth grade, but-

13:51 Speaker 2 No, no, but-

13:51 Speaker 1 ... it turned out that that's what happened, yes

13:53 Speaker 2 ... in retrospect, in retrospect, you found a place that you were very comfortable with. The proof is that you spent four years there, right?

13:58 Speaker 1 100%.

13:58 Speaker 2 And, um, you know, four years, f- anybody that's stayed at someone else's home, you... it could be a lovely family, but usually within a few months, you feel very much unwanted there. Uh, and-

14:11 Speaker 1 No, this was just the opposite

14:12 Speaker 2 ... so clearly you didn't. So you were very lucky and very fortunate, and probably had to do with your personality as well. So I mean, it, you know, you don't wanna give all the blame to the other people. You, you must have done something right as well. But you were fortunate that it ended up that way. And, um, even so, you're saying it was hard for you to be away from home. So what precisely was, was... And I mean, that makes sense, obviously. It's hard to be-

14:35 Speaker 1 Yeah, it was hard

14:35 Speaker 2 ... away from parents. But, like, just talk a little bit about that. Talk a little bit about the, the process, the emotional process. I mean, it, it for me at least, and, and I really wanna hear more from you about this, like, a lot of the feelings that I remember from my age of that time, 'cause I'm already, it's already 25 years away, is associated with being away from home.

14:56 Speaker 1 Right.

14:56 Speaker 2 Like, you know, like I don't remember so many feelings, emotions, moments. Like, the powerful stuff is from there, which says a lot. So what do you remember from the feelings that you had back then?

15:08 Speaker 1 So obviously that first month, it was exciting, you know?

15:11 Speaker 2 Right.

15:11 Speaker 1 Away from home. I'm a big boy. I was traveling alone, you know, unaccompanied minor-

15:15 Speaker 2 Yeah

15:15 Speaker 1 ... you know, that type of thing.

15:16 Speaker 2 Unaccompanied minor, yeah.

15:17 Speaker 1 Um, so it was just from Pesach to Shavuot. Shavuot, I came home, and there was camp at home, you know, the boys camp. You know, it, it was good. Then I came, uh, fifth grade, so for Elul, I came, I don't know, two weeks, three weeks, whatever it was, and I think for Rosh Hashanah, I was back home already. So, you know, so from Rosh Hashanah till Simchat Torah, I was home. I distinctly remember waking up Motza'ei Simchat Torah, you know, you know, I, I had a flight, uh, 12 o'clock, whatever it was, you know, the direct flight to Chicago. And I remember waking up and saying, "I'm not going." I remember saying that. Um, but it's not like there was an option for me to stay school-wise.

15:54 Speaker 2 Right.

15:54 Speaker 1 In other words, it really in my mind, I was not going back to the school that was in El Paso. Wonderful people, great, but I, I knew that I had to be-

16:02 Speaker 2 You knew that it wasn't for you, right

16:03 Speaker 1 ... in a different environment. I had, I had to be in a different environment, and I was, I was happy in the school. I, uh... When I wo- when I woke up Motza'ei Simchat Torah, I said, "I'm not going." It had nothing to do with anything wrong with where I was going, you know?

16:13 Speaker 2 Right.

16:14 Speaker 1 The, the Wolfs were wonderful, and in Chicago, the Cheder was also wonderful, but just, you know, a kid doesn't wanna leave home, and I said, "I'm not going." My parents were very patient, and, you know, they packed me up and this and that, and I'm, like, saying the whole time, "I'm not going, not going." But I, you know, I was, I was going. And I remember in the, um, I was in the airport, and I still said, "I'm not going." And, you know, my parents took me all the way to the plane, and I went. Years later, I mean, I think after I got married, my mother told me that as soon as I disappeared, my father tells my mother, "If he would've said 'I'm not going' one more time, I would've taken him back home." She was like, "Why'd you wait?" So I realized, actually, later on when I became a parent, and now, I mean, Baruch Hashem, my, my oldest is also away from home this year, um, I realized that no matter how hard it was for me, whatever, whatever it was, for my parents, it was much harder. Um, and I'm not here to feel for them. That, that's not the point.

17:09 Speaker 2 Yeah.

17:10 Speaker 1 Uh, and, and, you know, being a parent myself, I, I could see where that comes from. Children are resilient, you know? It... Kids... You know, obviously depends on the child, depends on the circumstance. It depends on everything.

17:20 Speaker 2 Uh, I mean, if-

17:21 Speaker 1 Um, but if you ask me, like, specific feelings, I have certain, I remember certain episodes of homesickness. I remember distinctly that the last time I cried for being homesick was when I was in sixth grade. I landed after Tisha. I remember that first night, I woke up crying. Mrs. Wolf saw me crying. I, I came to the kitchen. She was, like, concerned for me, whatever. She gave me something to eat. It was the last time I cried. I, I've cried since, but not, you know, not for-

17:46 Speaker 2 I mean-

17:47 Speaker 1 ... homesickness

17:47 Speaker 2 ... I, to be honest with you, I really didn't think we were gonna-

17:50 Speaker 1 Get here?

17:51 Speaker 2 ... go, go here 'cause you, you, you actually told me before we started speaking that you didn't wanna speak about your own story. Um, but yet we are talking about it, and, um, you know, for whatever reason, I, I, I'm not, I'm not cr- I'm not, I'm not at the brink of tears, but a lot is welling up inside of me. I mean, the, the emotions, uh, that, that this is bringing up and, um- The fact that I'm not crying probably probably says something that I need to explore. But I mean, I... You're kind of papering it over here. I mean, if you think about it, you're kind of papering it over here. I mean, there's, there's a number of parts here that you need to dissect. I mean, uh, yes, you understood as a 10-year-old that you had to go, but it was... You're, you're, you're like, it was a bigger deal for your parents than it was for you. Yeah. A million and one is more money than a million dollars. They're both mil- they're both a million dollars.

18:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

18:46 Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Your parents, your parents are dealing with different kinds of feelings than you are, mainly 'cause they're adults, but also because they feel a massive burden of guilt and responsibility, which you don't have 'cause this wasn't your fault. You're dealing with, as a child, the, the very, um... I think the word, the only possible, the only fair word is traumatic, and, and I'm not someone who bandies that word around all the time whenever, like, something's difficult. I think it is overused. But taking a child out of their home space and voluntarily moving... I mean, if it's involuntarily, I mean, it's even worse. But for a child to feel that they cannot be at home and they have to be somewhere else, um, it's rough. It's rough. It's rough.

19:34 Speaker 1 Yeah.

19:34 Speaker 2 You know? And, and, and, and it's confusing. It's confusing. I mean, I feel like what you're trying to say, and this is something that I, that I identify with, is that maybe you're not angry at your parents because you understand that they weren't putting something on you that they weren't putting on themselves. I mean, that, that to me, if that's what you're trying to say, that to me is a, a fair point. I mean, but I mean, I, I'm very well aware how difficult it was for my parents, to the point that I remember distinctly that, I mean, there was a time, there was a time where I wasn't a... Like I, I left home, and then eventually I couldn't leave home. Like it was just, you know, it was too much. I just psychologically couldn't deal with it. And then when I was older, and especially when I came to yeshiva and there were more boys in the dormitory, I was able to do it. But even then, I remember distinctly that I would come to the airport with my parents, and we lived in Hong Kong, so this was an international flight.

20:29 Speaker 1 They had to take you from-

20:29 Speaker 2 They didn't... No, but they... And my point is they didn't bring me to the gate. They brought me to security, and that was it. I would say goodbye, and I left. I did not linger. And the reason I didn't linger was not because I have a heart of stone. It's quite the opposite. I could not deal with that moment. I just said, "Okay, it..." The day before, it was a pit in my stomach. I knew what was coming. I also knew that on the other end of the flight, I'd be fine. I like the yeshiva I was in. For the most part, I'll be okay. But that moment of separation, I mean, bro, it's rough. It's rough, you know? And I mean, I don't know, you know, if, if we're gonna be honest, we may as well be honest. Um, I would think i-in some ways that that's true for me to this day. I mean, when I, when I, uh, s- when I... Like, my parents still live in Hong Kong, and I... So I see them less regularly. I mean, maybe at this age I would have moved away anyway, but, like, they're on the other side of the world, and I'm... I, it's so ingrained in me that when it comes time to say goodbye to my parents, whether it's after a simcha or after a visit or whatever it is, I literally, I, I, I, I say goodbye, I turn around, and I leave. I cannot deal with it. Anyway-

21:45 Speaker 1 Right

21:45 Speaker 2 ... I, I mean, that's all to say-

21:46 Speaker 1 Now we're hearing your story.

21:47 Speaker 2 I know, but I don't want to make it all my story. I just, I, I couldn't help myself. But I'm saying, like, you're, you're, you, you're kind of downplaying it. You're, you're making as if, like, you're making as if... And I wanna know, I wanna know where that's coming from. Like, like why, why do you feel-

22:01 Speaker 1 Right

22:01 Speaker 2 ... it's, why do you feel it's important to bring up that your parents had a harder time than you? I, I believe it.

22:06 Speaker 1 It's one of the... So I'll tell you. What, uh, it's one of the reasons why I was actually reluctant to go down this, you know, path-

22:12 Speaker 2 Right

22:12 Speaker 1 ... sim-simply because... Okay, let's put it this way. When I look back at my childhood, I have zero, like, um, how you say, bad feeling. I mean, life is life, you know?

22:26 Speaker 2 Right.

22:26 Speaker 1 People go through challenges, and I had my fair chip, share of them and-

22:29 Speaker 2 Right

22:29 Speaker 1 ... things like that. But I don't look back at the circumstances of my childhood, you know, growing up in, in a place which didn't have a chinuch for me, and then having to leave when I was a little kid, uh, whatever, 10 years old, and essentially being away from home. I don't look back at that as an abnormal type of childhood. I, I consider myself being very lucky to have a very happy childhood, and, and I'm actually thankful. Looking back, I'm thankful that I actually did go in fifth grade.

22:52 Speaker 2 Right.

22:52 Speaker 1 Um, I don't wanna, you know, engage in, you know, what-ifs, but I, I highly doubt that I, you know, that I would be who I am if I didn't leave then, if I didn't-

23:01 Speaker 2 Right

23:01 Speaker 1 ... enter the system or enter that environment at that point, and I'm keenly aware of that.

23:07 Speaker 2 Right.

23:08 Speaker 1 So in other words... So now is it about, you know, me trying to cover over trauma? And I, I don't, I don't know, and it's not even what I'm trying to, to-

23:15 Speaker 2 I'm not trying to bring up-

23:15 Speaker 1 The reason why I bring up that they had a harder time-

23:17 Speaker 2 No

23:17 Speaker 1 ... the reason why I say that is because I, I want to point out that, that for some reason, at least in my experience, my experience of it, which I definitely did feel homesickness, it was rough, you know, all that, at a certain point, it kind of like I snapped into a certain reality where, okay, this is life and this is what it is. Uh, were there times, you know, in seventh grade or eighth grade that I, I don't know, I would feel like, "Oh, I wish my parents were here"? Of course, you know, I had that. But for the most part, this is my life and, and I'm happy, you know, doing this.

23:46 Speaker 2 Right.

23:46 Speaker 1 Um, and I don't know if that ever got easier for my parents.

23:50 Speaker 2 Ah.

23:50 Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying.

23:51 Speaker 2 I see.

23:51 Speaker 1 Um, in fact, most recently, I heard, I overheard someone speaking to my father and asking him, "What's the hardest part of shluchus?"

23:56 Speaker 2 Yeah.

23:57 Speaker 1 He said, "Chinuch, period. Everything else, whatever. Not a walk in the park, but we can handle it. Kosher, this, that, it doesn't matter." He said, "Chinuch, that's, that's just the toughie." Um, and, and that's why, um, like in all of these stories that... I'll tell you a story that, uh-

24:13 Speaker 2 Yeah, but one second, one second, one second. I just wanna... I'm not trying to di-di-divert, but when... I, I've heard shluchim say that before. They say chinuch is the toughest part. Let, let's be honest.

24:22 Speaker 1 No, not aleph, beis, gimel.

24:23 Speaker 2 Let's be honest.

24:23 Speaker 1 It's more the-

24:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, chinuch, by chinuch they mean sending away their kids.

24:26 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. That's-

24:27 Speaker 2 No, 'cause I mean-

24:27 Speaker 1 That's what I mean.

24:27 Speaker 2 I, I, I

24:29 Speaker 1 That, that's what he meant also.

24:30 Speaker 2 I know that's what he meant, but I'm saying we, we use these kind of like, like, uh, what are the... There's a word for it. You know, uh, like when you-

24:36 Speaker 1 Euphemisms or whatever

24:36 Speaker 2 ... euphemisms. We use euphemisms to, like, chinuch, you know, like, uh, a per... I'm, I'm not earning... I'm not, I'm not making money. I'm just doing... I'm making parnassa. You're making, you're making green cash, and you're sending your kids away from home.

24:49 Speaker 1 Right.

24:50 Speaker 2 Let's, let's be... Let me see. That, that's what you're referring to.

24:52 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes, definitely.

24:53 Speaker 2 Okay, go ahead.

24:54 Speaker 1 As arranging for the right teacher or making sure the kid gets a, you know, an A, that, that's not-

24:58 Speaker 2 Right

24:58 Speaker 1 ... that's not chinuch.

24:59 Speaker 2 Right.

25:00 Speaker 1 Um, oh, so my mother told me a story recently, I don't know, a few years ago. She said that, um, when I was very little, four or five years old, we would come to New York, I don't wanna say often, but like every summer we were here for two, three weeks and we would stay in Crown Heights. You know, th-this was our time to come to the Rebbe. That's when we saw the Rebbe. Um, this is before Gemilut Chassidim. And my mother said that she noticed that, uh... So this is what? Nun Alef, Nun Beis, and even Nun Gimel. So very often there was like, you know, Nun Gimel especially, there's a siren, you know, the Rebbe's coming out to the balcony. Um, so we'd stay by cousins, and there were cousins my age. Whenever this would happen, she noticed that the c- you know, the, the kids that grew up in Crown Heights, they were all excited. Like, you know, it was like, you know, a fire under their... You know, and then they would run, "Hey, the Rebbe's coming out." And she noticed that, like, her Levi doesn't... Whatever. He went, but, like, she didn't see that fire. So she was complaining to my, to my father. She said, you know, "I, I went on shlichus in order to have chassidishe kids, but, but I, I don't see that, you know, happening." And my father told her, "That's not true. We didn't go on shlichus to have chassidishe kids." He's like, "What are

26:05 Speaker 1 you talking about?" And, and he shared with her the sicha from Purim Taf Shin Chaf, where the Rebbe spoke about the, the Peace Corps, right?

26:12 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

26:12 Speaker 1 That, uh, President, uh, Kennedy, he made a Peace Corps, and he's sending out people to go to these third world countries to live there and be with the people, and I guess educate them, but they're gonna have to live with the people, and they're g- not gonna get good pay, and they're not going to be able to eat the regular foods, et cetera. And they have, they have to do it, you know, for, for the right reasons and being altruistic about it and have a mission. And the Rebbe was speaking about this in regards to shlichus, that the whole idea of shlichus is, you know, going out, doing the mission, doing what has to be done, uh, without expectation of what's going to come as a result. And my father told her, he said, "I went on shlichus because... I mean, we went on shlichus because the Rebbe wants us to go and do a mission." I'm not gonna talk here what the mission is. Everyone knows. Uh, you know, what's going to happen in the end with our personal situation, I mean, the Rebbe's haguder, and he promises that things will be okay, and he gives us beracha, et cetera. But, like, I'm not measuring-

27:04 Speaker 3 Mm.

27:04 Speaker 1 I'm not, uh, how you say? Uh, determining if this was a good investment on my part based on, you know, if my son is running to seven seventy 'cause he's excited or not-

27:14 Speaker 3 Right

27:14 Speaker 1 ... or if he's, you know, called chassidis or not. I never heard about this conversation till a few years ago.

27:20 Speaker 3 Yeah.

27:20 Speaker 1 And it was actually eye-opening to me.

27:22 Speaker 3 Right.

27:22 Speaker 1 Because looking back, um, whether it was in the way my parents behaved or what they told me, I c- I could tell very, very clearly that they knew they have a mission. They have a reason to be here. Uh, they love their family, and they want their family to have the best possible pegashmies and also beruchnius, and therefore, they are willing to put themselves out there and send children away, uh, to have that chinuch, et cetera. But it was never like... It nev- it never clashed with their commitment to the shlichus.

27:50 Speaker 3 Right.

27:51 Speaker 1 And, like, so it was never, it was never like this, this struggle of like, are we getting our money's worth?

27:57 Speaker 3 Right.

27:57 Speaker 1 Are we getting our investment's worth based on-

27:59 Speaker 3 Right

27:59 Speaker 1 ... how the chinuch is coming along and how the kids are doing? I forgot where I was going with this, but-

28:04 Speaker 3 I mean, I'm very glad you went there 'cause it's something that I think about a lot. I mean, I, I am no longer on shlichus, so, uh, in some ways, you know, in some ways, in some ways that point is more relevant to you, I'm sure, than, than it is to me, but I grew up on shlichus. And, um, you know, th-there is this, there is this... What you're-- This, this kind of discussion that your mother and father had is like, to me is like a, is like a general conversation that Lubavitchers have and maybe have with themselves, you know. Or it's just a, it's kind of two sides of the conversation, which is there's, there's, you know... There's a famous thing of, you know, the Rebbe said about the shlichim's kids, "Af mine a plaitzes." Right? That he takes a chais, he takes a chais, so that's how it's translated. He takes a chais for, for the shlichim's kids. And, you know, I've always, I've always felt that that's like a very superficial reading. If that story happened the way it said it happened, which is I don't know, but let's say that interpretation to me is, is a pretty shallow interpretation. Because what that assumes is, is that, like you said, shlichus has to work out perfectly 'cause that's what the intention was. You also hear this, uh, to put it in a different framework, a lot of times people want to make as if shlichus is a win-win-win all across the board.

29:30 Speaker 1 Nothing in life is that clear.

29:31 Speaker 3 Right. Right. But shlichus is the thing where, uh, how many times have you heard that, like, you know, look at shlichim's kids, look how they turned out. Maybe today people say that less for different reasons, but when I was a, when I was a kid, when I was growing up, it was pl- very often, like, the Rebbe would send people on shlichus, and look at how their kids turned out. Their k- I, I just heard it two weeks ago on my podcast, someone was saying, you know, on shlichus, kids grow up learning to share and, and, and, and people try to find the benefits that c- that, that come out of shlichus. And I'm sure there are benefits that come out of shlichus, right?

30:01 Speaker 1 Right.

30:01 Speaker 3 I'm not here to rag on shlichus, right? Um, I grew up in a Chabad house. I saw a lot of beautiful things that were happening in that Chabad house. I'm happy to extol the praises of shlichus, okay? Uh, that's not my mission. But to say that it's a net... Like, it's, it's only, only upside, and there w- like, it, it... Everything has to work out perfectly because it's shlichus, to me is insane, right? So that to me is basically what your father's answering, that shlichus is not because everything will work out. That's not why I go on shlichus, because everything's going to work out, right? I went on shlichus because there is a mission that I was sent to accomplish, right? And everything else, hopefully it works out. Maybe yes, maybe no, right?

30:49 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

30:50 Speaker 3 Maybe yes, maybe no. I mean, I would say even more, you're saying that, you know, like, it, it, it doesn't have to work out. One could say, and maybe this is, uh, the heart of what we're kind of the... If there is a debate here, this is the heart of the debate, which is I would even say that- Maybe it, there's no way that it can work out across the board, right? There's no way that it can work out across the board. Shlichas, you're sending out thousands of couples around the world, right? And couples raising a family in the best of cases have it hard. It's a challenge to raise, raise children, raise children that they're well psychologically, uh, physically, spiritually, religiously. All of these things are challenges, right? Now, you take these couples and you, you, you, you spread them thin in these different communities where they have no support network, not family, not friends, right? They're all... They're isolated, right? Assuming that they are in the best place to begin with, that's already an massive, probably impossible challenge, right? But a lot of them were not. Let's be honest. A lot of couples that went on shlichas went with baggage to begin with 'cause really everybody has-

32:01 Speaker 1 Why?

32:01 Speaker 3 ... everybody has baggage, right? So you're sending out on shlichas, right? People that have to begin with challenges. Now you're putting a even bigger challenge on them, and they have to raise a family on top of everything else that they have to do, and they have to figure it out from scratch, right? 'Cause they're in a place that nobody else was before, and very often nobody else comes after. Okay. So, like, that sys- that, that... I don't wanna use the word system, but that, that situation to me is not going to end up with roses across the board. There's going to be chal- there's gonna be fallout. There's gonna be fallout.

32:39 Speaker 1 The Rebbe would talk a lot about the fact that the Friediker Rebbe sent out, you know, in, in, in Russia, right? In the pays, right? When the Friediker Rebbe was there and he was basically trying to keep Yiddishkeit alive.

32:47 Speaker 3 Right.

32:47 Speaker 1 And, uh, he would send people to be a melamed or a shochet or whatever it is, and you knew that they're going to face the firing squad. They're not going to survive. And the Rebbe would talk about the fact that to go on mesirus nefesh yourself, nu, stay there, okay? But to send someone else to go on mesirus nefesh, that takes really b'reiis haplitzis. The Rebbe would talk about this, about the Friediker Rebbe, that, that the mesirus nefesh the Friediker Rebbe had to have to send someone-

33:09 Speaker 3 Right

33:09 Speaker 1 ... to go... And it's not just about facing the firing squad. What happens with the lamanna and the hasamim and all of that?

33:14 Speaker 3 Right.

33:14 Speaker 1 These are all things that definitely the, the Friediker Rebbe thought about, et cetera, but there's a fire burning. Judaism is falling apart. We have to, we have to save it.

33:21 Speaker 3 Right.

33:22 Speaker 1 And, and, and so I think a lot, you know, the Rebbe has a world. He has to bring Mashiach to this world.

33:27 Speaker 3 Right.

33:27 Speaker 1 Right? This is his job, and the only way to do it is actually to send people to be there physically on the ground. It doesn't work with sending American shluchim to go in for two weeks, come in and out. Um, and, and this is what we have to do, and there are definitely challenges. And I, I, I think, I think when people-

33:42 Speaker 3 Yeah. You go ahead

33:42 Speaker 1 ... when people talk about, like, you know, look at shluchim's kids and they come out so wonderful, et cetera, um, I think what they're trying to harp on is that, you know, the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya that even the kal sha'b'kalam, even, like, you know, someone who's totally uneducated with Judaism, you know, is willing to go on mesirus nefesh, uh, is willing to give up his life. And I think the point of it there is the fact that someone who knows about Yiddishkeit has a chinuch and, you know, has a commitment to Judaism and is willing to die, okay, we could explain it. But the fact that a guy just found out yesterday that he's Jewish, he's willing to die, that's the huge deal. And I think what they're trying to say is that, you know, a melech chinuch in a Lubavitcher environment, et cetera, okay, you could expect that to happen. But they're living in Hong Kong, they're living in El Paso, et cetera, and still the kids should come out okay? Like, that, that's huge. And like if you s- when you see that coming, happening, so people are like, "Oh, look, look at, like, the special unique quality of that type of, uh, chinuch."

34:31 Speaker 3 I mean, that, that part I, that part I understand, but I've heard it s- I've heard it s- I mean, someone said literally on this podcast a few weeks ago that, like, shluchim's kids, you know, they have an advantage in the sense that they are brought up, you know, kind of, uh, pushing the message as opposed to accepting the message or-

34:48 Speaker 1 My only pushback to that is it's not just shluchim's kids. I've seen plenty of kids growing up with chinuch.

34:52 Speaker 3 No, I'm just saying it was just an example to me, and I've heard it so many times growing up where, like, you know, uh, like I said, this podcast isn't for airing dirty laundry. I mean, I've heard, I've heard all kinds of nonsense, as we all have. I mean, if, if there's plenty of nonsense that I have said in my life, and I hope people don't go quoting it on, on a podcast, you know. So, you know, the, y- y- you just brought up this very interesting, um, kind of contrast to me at least, where, where the Friediker Rebbe was talking about, um, the firing squads, and the Rebbe was talking about the Friediker Rebbe, and that's where the idea of plitzis comes in, which is o- which is how I always understood it. Plitzis is responsibility, not, not that, like, I'm gonna make it all work out in the way you want to. This, there's a very big story here where people are gonna get hurt or people may get hurt. It's very possible, very, very probable that they're gonna get hurt. But there's an equation, right? There's an equation. But, you know, I think, I think, uh, what, what I wanted to ask you was, how much do you think we're hurt by the fact we are... How much do you think we are hurt by the fact that the, the images of, like, the Rebbe crying by a farbrengen or cry- the stories of the Rebbe crying when he saw a video

36:09 Speaker 3 was of the children in Russia, for example, and then when it comes to the Kiness and shluchim in, in general, the images that we have are, you know, like this and everybody dancing and, like, there's... Like, it almost seems like, you know, like, um, like I don't... I'm not, I'm not blaming anybody for doing this intentionally. I just, I f- 'cause you brought up this idea of Russia, and right away what came to my head was, like, the Rebbe would cry about the Jews in Russia, and, like, you knew how painful it was, and, like, you know how painful it was for the Friediker Rebbe, right? And, like, they, they, they didn't know what to do. Like, like you said, they're, they're, like, you either, you ei- I mean, either your shlu- your, your chassidim will assimilate themselves 'cause that's what, that's what was gonna happen if they, if they tried to. There was no, there was no way. It wasn't like there was a place where they could go and hide. They were gonna be assaulted, or they were gonna try to push back, and people were gonna get killed. Like, what are you supposed to do as a leader? It's, it's impossible. It's a terrible place to be. So, like, when you talk about Russian Jewry, the Rebbe's crying, right? Like, that's the image that comes to my head at least, and I'm sure it comes to a lot of people's heads. When it comes to shlichas in America- All you-- It's like

37:16 Speaker 3 all, like, you know, uplift and kashat bracha, and the shulchan dancing for three hours at the kinnis and so on. Like, I'm not saying there isn't a side of that that I understand, but, like, the... Like, what if-- what, what would it look like, and what would we think if we knew the Rebbe cried for shulchan's kids as well?

37:36 Speaker 1 So you bring up a point that actually I've never thought about, and thank you for bring-- I mean, a-and now I'm, I'm gonna talk while thinking, basically. That's what's gonna happen.

37:43 Speaker 3 That's... Now, now we're getting started.

37:45 Speaker 1 Now we're getting started.

37:45 Speaker 3 Now, now, now I can press record.

37:48 Speaker 1 So simcha or being upbeat doesn't necessarily equate everything is great.

37:58 Speaker 3 Right.

37:59 Speaker 1 Just think about, for examp-- I mean, right now we're in the middle of the war in Israel, right? So it-- as soon as I heard the news on Shemini Atzeret, by the way, you know, people come at the shul, and they tell you. I right away thought about the Yom Kippur War. Um, the Yom Kippur War broke out on Yom Kippur, and two days later, the Rebbe had a farbrengen into Kimu Tishrei, right? The Rebbe starts off and says, "How can we have a farbrengen? You know, our brothers and sisters are fighting, and, you know, Yidden are fighting in Eretz Yisrael. How could we have a, you know, simcha?" I'm not gonna chafer the entire farbrengen, but the point is the Rebbe, the Rebbe explains that simcha is actually going to have a, a positive impact on them. Then at a certain point, there's, there's a... After the Ma'amar, there's a, a sicha where the Rebbe talks about Eretz Yisrael, about the war. The Rebbe speaks about that, that the reason why it's happening is because there was a lot of talk from the leaders to give away land, et cetera. And we're going to make an announcement here that what they said is not really their own opinion, and they don't speak on behalf of Klal Yisrael. It was only the Yetzer Hara trying to convince them things. And we're gonna make that a charze here, and everyone's going to say amen. And, like, the Rebbe's like obviously doing something very heavenly. Like, he's

39:02 Speaker 1 trying to neutralize some type of problem. And the sicha, it's a ten-minute sicha, it ends, and seven-- seventy is roaring amen, and then it's quiet for two minutes. I've never heard such a thing about a farbrengen. I've, I've listened to a lot of farbrengens, watched them. There's never really a quiet moment for more than ten seconds, if at all. For two whole minutes, it's quiet. And then all of a sudden, the Rebbe starts to sing Vesamachta. But, like, a Vesamachta. And the first time that I heard that farbrengen, it, it, it shook me. I was like, the Rebbe is very keenly aware of what's going on. Yud Gimmel Tishrei, Israel was losing.

39:37 Speaker 3 Right.

39:37 Speaker 1 That's when the two thousand and seven hundred soldiers were dying.

39:40 Speaker 3 Right.

39:40 Speaker 1 Things didn't turn around until Sukkot.

39:41 Speaker 3 And, and, and nobody thought-

39:43 Speaker 1 That it would turn around.

39:44 Speaker 3 Right.

39:44 Speaker 1 You know, it was, uh, whatever they were saying in Israel.

39:46 Speaker 3 People forget, yeah. People forget. Yeah.

39:47 Speaker 1 It was very, very bad.

39:49 Speaker 3 Very bad.

39:50 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe just explained why it's so bad. And the Rebbe's trying to do something, whatever he was doing, in order to, like, neutral... And there's, like, these two m-- And in, in the room, you have people that are from Eretz Yisrael. They have family there.

40:00 Speaker 3 Right.

40:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, just think about the, the, the, the, you know, whatever. And here, all of a sudden, the Rebbe just starts Vesamachta. And the entire Tishrei going forward was only about simcha.

40:10 Speaker 3 Right.

40:11 Speaker 1 Was the Rebbe ignoring the issues? No. So getting back to the question, you know, with regard to shlichus and with America, at least the image that we have or that's been imposed or, or it's been characterized with is the Rebbe, you know, with a wave of his hand sending shluchim out, et cetera.

40:25 Speaker 3 Right.

40:27 Speaker 1 I... The older I get, the more I realize that that does not equate nothing is-- there's no issues, there is no pain. On the contrary, and the way we deal with it is trying to just infuse more simcha and more, more, um, chayas into the situation. You know, a, a shliach that's having a problem.

40:46 Speaker 3 Yeah.

40:46 Speaker 1 I, I was just reading a letter in Yigris where, um, apparently this person was writing to the Rebbe that they, they're, they, they did certain aveidas. I don't know. You know, you can only guess what people wrote to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe writes back to them. So one second, you wanna deal with that aveida by doing another aveida, which means to be batzvos, like, you know, to be depressed. Like, what? That, that's not gonna help you. On the contrary, be with simcha, do another mitzvah. Whatever. You know, it, it's, like, typical. But here the Rebbe spell-spells it out.

41:10 Speaker 3 Right.

41:10 Speaker 1 You're gonna deal with a problem by adding another problem? You know. So again, you know, with regard to Russian Jewry and the Rebbe crying, I mean, over there you're talking about people are dying, and people can't eat, and, and, you know, let's not equate Russian Jewry and the challenges that they had in the house of the previous Rebbe to the challenge of shlichus. It's a different-

41:26 Speaker 3 Fair point

41:26 Speaker 1 ... it's a different type of challenge.

41:28 Speaker 3 Fair point.

41:28 Speaker 1 And I think therefore the reaction to it, it's fair to say that even though it's a simcha reaction, that doesn't mean that it, it, it doesn't have the human side or, or the, or the, how you say, the awareness or acknowledgement of either the personal pain someone may be having, the challenges they're having and, and things like that.

41:46 Speaker 3 I mean, very fair, very fair points. Very fair points. Um, yeah. I mean, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my thought experiment was not so much to say that the Rebbe didn't feel this way or that way based on how it seems. It's more like I feel that's how we've associated things, right? The association is-

42:06 Speaker 1 No, and that's-

42:06 Speaker 3 I think that's pretty evident that that's how we associate it. And I feel like... I mean, you're making a point that because we saw the Rebbe being This is a mu- this is a much more complicated story than people present. And again, I, I wanna be careful. I am not trying to blast Shlichus, right? I... This is not a vendetta. Just because-

43:28 Speaker 1 Right

43:28 Speaker 3 ... I personally am not on Shlichus today does not mean that I'm against it, or doesn't mean that I don't see the positives in it. Okay? I, I, I, by and large, I, I can extol its virtues, I can extol its, its successes. And people also talk about the problems of Shlichus. You always have to ask, "Yeah, but what would've been the problems if there wasn't Shlichus," right? Everything is... There, there's a lot of things to take into consideration, so that's not my point. My point is only that, like, it does seem that, like, w- w- we, we, we, we almost feel like an obligation to defend not just Shlichus, but the perfection of Shlichus.

44:06 Speaker 1 Right. Uh, I, I'll share with you. A friend of mine, my age, went on Shlichus, uh, 'cause I mean, he went as... Oh, I, I always say I, I went back home. My wife went on Shlichus.

44:15 Speaker 3 Right.

44:15 Speaker 1 You know, she's from Crown Heights and, but, um, a friend of-

44:18 Speaker 3 I wanna ask you about that ask you soon. Yeah.

44:21 Speaker 1 Uh, a friend of mine who, who didn't grow up on Shlichus, uh, Babazar, you know, um, he went, he opened up a Chabad House in a faraway place or whatever, and one time he was... And he's, he's a very Chassidisha guy. I mean, like, you know, I look up to him. And he was talking to me once, and he was complaining that every time that he writes to the Rebbe, he's kvetching. Like, you know, that he, that, you know, it's so hard and so this and so that. Like, he, he feels guilty that all he has to share is that he has problems and issues and whatever. So I said, "You know, you know, some of the most beautiful, m- you know, responses, letters that we have to Shluchim about Shluchim, one of the most famous ones, uh, Rabbi He- Rabbi Meshit Shecht from New Haven wrote to the Rebbe, 'That's it. I'm giving...' You know, "The Rebbe should send someone that's better suited for this, um, to take over." And the Rebbe writes back to him, tell him, "I already sent the perfect can- I already sent the guy that could do it. His name is Meshit Shecht. You should get to know him." You know.

45:13 Speaker 3 Right.

45:14 Speaker 1 Beautiful, right? Very nice. And then I said, "Let's take a step back for a second. Do you realize what prompted that response?" This big Chossid, he was a Chassidishe Yid. I mean, the Rebbe spoke about him, you know, when he passed away in Taf Shin Beis and he was-- he wanted to leave.

45:27 Speaker 3 Right.

45:27 Speaker 1 He was complaining to the Rebbe, and that's what prompted this tremendous response.

45:31 Speaker 3 Right.

45:31 Speaker 1 Uh, you said that, you know, my grandmother. So, uh, Mrs. Gorelik from Milan, and it's a famous story. Uh, she was once, um, she was once in a... She was giving a shiur in, uh, Lugano, uh, you know, in Switzerland. It's nearby Milan. The Rebbe had actually told my grandparents that they should teach Chassidus there.

45:51 Speaker 3 Right.

45:51 Speaker 1 Whatever. It's a long story, but she... So she would-

45:53 Speaker 3 I think you told me that story once.

45:54 Speaker 1 So she said it on the other pod?

45:56 Speaker 3 No. No, no. I think a different project.

45:58 Speaker 1 So she, um, she would always prepare two sichas, um, 'cause she would give a shiur to the girls, like the younger girls in Lugano, and then she would give a, a, a, a shiur to the women, and she would do two different sichas so that the girls who came to the shiur also would hear something new. Anyway, she came to the women's shiur, and she said over the sicha, and they said, "Let's hear more." So she said over the sicha that she said to the girls, then they said, "Could we hear more?" And her mind was blank. She didn't, you know.

46:23 Speaker 3 Right.

46:23 Speaker 1 It's fine. No problem. You know, she, she did what she had to do, and she's... And then the entire train ride back to Milan, she was beating herself up. You know, "I'm the Shliach. I'm the Shlucha. I'm the one that's supposed to be bringing, you know-

46:32 Speaker 3 Yeah

46:33 Speaker 1 ... the mayones of Chassidus, and I have nothing to say." And she wrote a whole letter to the Rebbe basically saying that he should have sent someone else to Milan, you know. One of the smarter girls in her Beis Yaakov class would've done a better job or whatever. She said she didn't get a response directly to that letter, but later on, she had sent something else, a whole 'nother story about the school, and the Rebbe sent her a beautiful letter, um, describing the difference between, uh, you know, a, a wheat and, and a tree, you know, the fruits from a tree. I'm not gonna get into the whole thing, but that was basically saying that when things are hard, that means you're doing something right, and there's going to be proper payus. And then the Rebbe in the next paragraph says, um, and I'm not gonna quote it exactly, but the point was that this that you say that, that someone else should have been here, are you doubting my judgment? So- something like... That was, like, the message. And okay, so that, you know, my grandmother got this, uh, got this letter. The way I see it is, you know, in life, whenever we fail or we're faced with challenges and we say, "Oh, I'm, I'm so not good at this, and I'm lacking this experience, and I don't have this talent and whatever," it's like, "Why am I even doing this?" And remember, by the way, you think the Rebbe didn't know that?

47:40 Speaker 1 He, he knew that, you know-

47:42 Speaker 3 Mm

47:42 Speaker 1 ... you're this and you're that and whatever it is, and he's sending you to do the mission. And, and the fact that he sent you, you know, th- that itself should be inspiring to you.

47:52 Speaker 3 Mm.

47:52 Speaker 1 That's not gonna take away the challenges. You will have challenges, and I'm sure a lot of the challenges that people, uh, have on Shlichus has to do with their own personal personality or their, their own personal circumstances. It's not... You can't make a cookie cutter. You know, all the Shluchim that are in these types of cities are gonna have these types of challenges.

48:09 Speaker 3 No.

48:09 Speaker 1 That's not true. And so what I'm saying is, I think we have to realize that first of all, in life, nothing is, you know, perfect and nothing is smooth. No matter what we go into, go into chinuch, go into business, go into anything. You know, life has its challenges. Anyone that tells you that they found the perfect path to life that has zero hiccups, I mean, I guess then they, they, they don't have a pulse. Um, and Shlichus has its fair challenges.

48:34 Speaker 3 Right.

48:34 Speaker 1 Um-

48:36 Speaker 3 Uh, it, what's interesting is that the two stories that you told me there, uh, I t- I had a very different takeaway from it. I'm not, I'm not disputing what you said, but what, like, what, what resonate, what, what, what I heard from it was... I mean, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot recently. You know, uh, the Chassid wavelength and the Rebbe wavelength are very different wavelengths, right? You know, there's a famous Sayum that Amal, the, the, the Rav is silent and the Talmidim are silent, and the uftu of Chassidus, the getlich uftu of Chassidus, right? Is an expression. Like the getlich-

49:10 Speaker 1 Okay

49:10 Speaker 3 ... like, like the miraculous divine... It's not stam uftu. It's like s- the divine uftu of, of Chassidus is that the Rebbe is not silent, the Chassidus are not silent. What? That they all sit in a room together in Fabrayg and listen to the Rebbe Fabrayg? That that's what we're talking about? No. What we're talking about is that we're talking about people that are on very different wavelengths, and according to the Torah of Chassidus, we're talking about infinitely different wavelengths, right? And so, you know, one of the challenges that you have when you, let's say, read Igeres, for example, is you're, you're only getting the Rebbe's wavelength, right? So, like, the story of Moshe Itzcha Kecht, who happens to be your grandfather, my brother-in-law, um-

49:44 Speaker 1 Right

49:44 Speaker 3 ... right. So you figured it-

49:45 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you

49:45 Speaker 3 ... you figured it out. Yeah. So I'm saying I've heard this story, and I've heard a lot-

49:49 Speaker 1 And by the way, in Chicago, I went to Mevtzaam with him.

49:51 Speaker 3 Okay.

49:51 Speaker 1 He, he taught me how to do Mevtzaam in the big building.

49:53 Speaker 3 And now I can for sure turn on the record button. Yeah. So I mean, I've heard a lot about him and what kind of character he was. But, like, this, the, the letter you h- the letter you hear is, you know, that, um, that, you know, the Rebbe already sent or the Rebbe's judgment, like... And that's Rebbe's wavelength 'cause the Rebbe's writing it. But, like, y- what you said to your friend was, you realize what h- what his point was? What, what this Hasid's point was, is he couldn't do it. And-

50:19 Speaker 1 No, yeah. Yeah, finish it

50:20 Speaker 3 ... no, I'm saying like, I'm saying like that, uh, again, I, I'm not saying that w- that I dispute what you're saying. All I'm saying is that, like, I pay attention-- I paid attention when you brought them up to more like there are two wavelengths here. Your, your grandmother and this m- and this Rebbe Hecht were both on their wavelengths racked by terrible self-doubt. Um, a, 'cause in general, people have self-doubt, especially here, you're talking about shlichus, this is a new thing. This is a... Everybody's kind of on their own, starting from scratch. They don't really know what they're even meant to be doing or what they're, why they're here or what, like, or what defines success.

50:56 Speaker 1 Yeah. Sure.

50:56 Speaker 3 Also, I mean, at the beginning, a lot of, like, a lot of shluchim asked-

50:59 Speaker 1 I like how you said that, what defines success? Okay.

51:00 Speaker 3 Yeah, they didn't know what defines success. They asked Rav Chadakov what, what are you supposed to do? One guy got an answer, sell, sell kasherim. My zeide in Philadelphia got an answer, do everything that starts with tanalef and everything that starts with the base and everything that starts with the gimel. Like, I mean, these are... I, I think even the Rebbe may have given them that, that answer. I, I don't know who he got it from exactly, but I think he may have heard that directly from the Rebbe. The, the point is that that's not a very concrete answer.

51:24 Speaker 1 It's not a nine-to-five deal.

51:26 Speaker 3 No, no, it's, it... On the Hasid's wavelength, that's also not an answer. Like, like, w-w-okay, I asked you what to do, and you told me to do everything. What does that... Like, that's why I asked. Like-

51:36 Speaker 1 Right

51:36 Speaker 3 ... like, I, I wanna know what to do, not, like, what there is to do. Um, but, you know, the, the... So what I take away from it is, is that shlichus in many ways brings that, um, that, that distance or that, uh, that disjunction, like the two different wavelengths-

51:56 Speaker 1 Into focus

51:56 Speaker 3 ... it brings it into the sharpest focus possible, right? Because here you have now suddenly, um, you have the Rebbe's mission of shlichus, that the shliach is living on a daily basis, right? The Rebbe, the Rebbe says you're gonna go on shlichus, and this is gonna be... This is what's needed now to bring Mashiach, right? I think generally speaking, that's what it is, right? I mean, there are specifics and different ways of-

52:18 Speaker 1 That's what it is.

52:18 Speaker 3 ... interpreting it and, and what exactly it looks like and so on, but j- but that's what it is, right? You're, you're going to, you, you're going to devote your life to the, to, to being makariv and, and ... right? And that will bring Mashiach. Okay. So that's the Rebbe's, that's Rebbe's wavelength. The, the, the ch- the shliach's wavelength is trying to live that wavelength, but also dealing with all of life.

52:46 Speaker 1 Right.

52:47 Speaker 3 Right? And, and that tension is, is crazy, right? That tension is crazy. I mean, that, that's what I heard when you bring up those two things, is that, like, we, we, we very often s-g- people, like, learn the Igress or people, you know, you know, like, you, you listen to Fabrian. Whatever it is that people do, um, we, we kind of get intoxicated with, with the Rebbe's wavelength. And that might be a beautiful thing f-for whoever it works for, but we have to, we have to be aware that it doesn't automatically translate into the Hasid's wavelength, is what I'm saying.

53:22 Speaker 1 So, so I'll just get back to the... The reason I was bringing up the stories is because my friend was feeling guilty that he was kvetching. And I was like: "Why are you feeling guilty? That's what all of them did."

53:32 Speaker 3 Right.

53:33 Speaker 1 All of our heroes, all of our-

53:34 Speaker 3 Right

53:34 Speaker 1 ... shlichim heroes-

53:35 Speaker 3 Okay. So the-

53:35 Speaker 1 They kvetch all the time. But-

53:36 Speaker 3 So you're bringing up the same point as me.

53:38 Speaker 1 Yes. Uh, what I'm trying, what I was trying to, what I was trying to share with him was when the Rebbe sends us on shlichus, he doesn't turn us into tzadikim or super people.

53:46 Speaker 3 Right. Okay.

53:46 Speaker 1 We're still the same person.

53:49 Speaker 3 Right.

53:49 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe knows that, and we should know that. I mean, if, if we don't, then we have a problem.

53:52 Speaker 3 Oh, so when you said that, when you brought up your, the story with your grandmother, that the Rebbe, the Rebbe d-do, do not trust my judgment, you were not saying that you should be battel with Kabbalah.

54:02 Speaker 1 No, no.

54:03 Speaker 3 Oh, okay.

54:03 Speaker 1 I was just saying that, that if someone looks at my... And, and she is a very special woman, and she is a heroic shlucha. And, you know, from the nashim, you know, from the first ones that went out.

54:11 Speaker 3 Right.

54:11 Speaker 1 I mean, I, I think they're the first ones that left America to go overseas on shlichus. Like, it's, it's a big deal.

54:17 Speaker 3 Yeah.

54:17 Speaker 1 Until then, you know-

54:18 Speaker 3 Yeah

54:18 Speaker 1 ... the people, uh, whatever. Uh, don't have to go into details. But the point is, you know, people look up to her and say: "Wow, look at that. I, I wish I could be like her," right?

54:25 Speaker 3 Yeah.

54:25 Speaker 1 Well, guess what? She also kvetched.

54:28 Speaker 3 Right.

54:28 Speaker 1 And more than once.

54:29 Speaker 3 Right.

54:30 Speaker 1 And that doesn't make her not a shlucha and not a Hasid and not... Like, this is, this is who we are.

54:35 Speaker 3 That is the definition of Hasidim. I mean, uh, I, I mean, this, th-this, th-there is a danger of me, of me falling into a rant here, which I will not do. Um-

54:43 Speaker 1 I should stop you? Okay.

54:44 Speaker 3 I will not, I will not, I will not do. But, um, you know, there's a famous story of Reb Yisroel of Mazbir, the, the Baal-

54:52 Speaker 1 Baal HaGolah. Yeah

54:53 Speaker 3 ... Reb Yisroel Baal HaGolah. And-

54:55 Speaker 1 The Shinkover Rebbe.

54:56 Speaker 3 Yeah. And I remember reading it in the Frierdiker Rebbe's, uh, uh, writings. I think I read it at that ersen which was published elsewhere as well. And that whole story is about his doubt because he... The Alter Rebbe never told him specifically to go right now and be a Baal HaGolah. The Alter Rebbe gave him, like, a siman that if and this, this and this happens-

55:18 Speaker 1 Yes, but

55:20 Speaker 3 No

55:20 Speaker 1 ... you should be a Baal HaGolah.

55:21 Speaker 3 If... No, something has to happen first. Something had to happen.

55:25 Speaker 1 All right. Okay.

55:25 Speaker 3 I, I don't remember... Look at it. This is... No, 'cause it's the story. 'Cause he was like: "I'm not sure if this is what I'm meant to be doing." And he had... His wife had to push him over.

55:34 Speaker 1 Right. The Rebbe wa- the Alter Rebbe was very clear what he should do, but it didn't make sense. And he went, he went through the thing-

55:39 Speaker 3 No, but it didn't happen right away. It happened years later.

55:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

55:40 Speaker 3 So there was a siman that had to happen. There was a siman that had to happen. The point that I'm saying is, is that the story is all about his doubt, and he was broken about his doubt. "What kind of Hasid am I that I even have doubt? Should I do it? Should I not do it?" And it was his wife who told him, "If, if you even have a s-svara that the Rebbe told you to do this, what's the shaila?" And even then, he was broken 'cause, "What the heck am I doing here? I don't-

56:02 Speaker 1 Right

56:02 Speaker 3 ... understand this. This doesn't make any sense to me. Why am I, why am I cleaning up- A horse's drek. Makes no sense. Why am I schlepping people around? And it doesn't even seem, if I remember correctly, it doesn't even seem once the story kind of played out and he saved this person's neshamah, that he was like, "Okay, amazing. This was a great story." He's still, he's still upset. Like, ig- I don't know if he's still-

56:25 Speaker 1 Oh, whatever

56:26 Speaker 3 ... I don't know, okay, maybe the word's not upset. He's still, he's still conflicted. Like, it's not a story of triumph. And, and then I think it was only later that the Alter... 'Cause it was r- at that point, I think the Alter Rebbe had passed away, uh, so the-

56:39 Speaker 1 The Mitteler Rebbe became Mashpia.

56:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

56:40 Speaker 1 Yeah.

56:41 Speaker 3 So e- this is a story, uh, the way that I read it f- you know, and I'm pretty sure this is the way it's written, it's a story of, of a Hasid overcoming doubt and living with that doubt and, and, and trying in face of that doubt to do what the Rebbe asked him to do, right? 'Cause the reason I say that he wasn't even sure, 'cause I think... I wish I would've read it before I spoke to you. Uh, this is a proof that I wasn't planning this rant, right? Like, like, the, the Mitteler Rebbe told him something to, like, ease his, ease, ease him. Like, there was something that, like, he, he told him something to make him feel better about it.

57:17 Speaker 1 Right.

57:17 Speaker 3 My point is... That's not even my main point. My p- my main point is that when I was growing up, I heard this story, too, and that's not at all how I heard the story. That's not how anybody listening to this heard the story.

57:27 Speaker 1 I have a lot to say about stories being told in different ways, yeah.

57:30 Speaker 3 No, no, but, no, but it's not what happened in the story, it's how the story was told.

57:33 Speaker 1 Yeah, I understand. The mesham of it.

57:34 Speaker 3 The point, the point of the story is always look at the Alter Rebbe, what kind of ruach hakodesh he had that he knew to send a Hasid and put him in this place so that one... Okay, now, first of all, that doesn't make any sense because if the Alter Rebbe was, had ruach hakodesh, which we knew he did have ruach hakodesh, then he could have told this guy, "On this and this day, be a baal gadol for a day or get, get training for a week and be in the right place at the right time." He didn't have to take 10 years of his life to be a baal gadol, right? So obviously, there's more to the story than, than just that. There's something more that's going on here. The Alter Rebbe understood something that maybe we don't understand, perhaps.

58:09 Speaker 1 Okay.

58:09 Speaker 3 Right? But more than that, the point that when you're telling a story, there's always a point to the story, right? The line is never make a point without telling a story, and never tell a story without it making a point. Every story has a point. What's the point of this story? You read the Free the Caregivers the way he wrote it, it's all about the Hasid. It's all about the Hasid. The Alter Rebbe tells him to do something, now he's left on his own. He's not sure if this is what Alter Rebbe meant or not. He's not sure if he c- he's up to it, and he overcomes it and he does. It's all about him. Him, him, him, all the way through. The way it's told to us, it's all about the Alter Rebbe. What happened, right? Why am I bringing this up now? Because that's what you're just talking about now. What you're, what you're talking about is that there is, there is, there is a, there is a Hasid here. There is, there is a, there is, there, there are these big heroes, these big shluchim heroes, these, these big people that, that, that are, that populate our imagination of what it means to be a derech v'Hasid. These people were real people dealing with real issues, dealing with real struggles, and we kind of overlook it sometimes.

59:11 Speaker 1 And it's not a stitta, that's the point.

59:13 Speaker 3 That's a point.

59:13 Speaker 1 Is that it?

59:14 Speaker 3 That's a point. That's a... I'm agreeing with you.

59:15 Speaker 1 Not a contradiction.

59:16 Speaker 3 That's not, that's not the point, but something happened, I don't know when, and you're not that much older than me, so, uh, maybe you have source when it happened. I don't know if you, like, I don't know if you would... It, it certainly didn't happen in the two years or whatever age gap we have. But something happened at some point where we went from telling stories of Hasidim to everything being a story of the Rebbe, right? Like, there's, there's a beautiful part, a big part, and an indispensable part of, of, of being a Hasid and the whole story of Hasidism at, in, in, in total is a story of the Hasid as well, right?

59:49 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. Of course.

59:50 Speaker 3 And the story of Shluchis is the story of the Mishleach, but it's also the story of the Shluchim, and it's also the story of the Shluchim's kids who, who have to, uh, you know, uh, have to-

1:00:00 Speaker 1 Experience the challenge. I'll, I'll make a list

1:00:02 Speaker 3 ... have to say, have to say goodbye to their parents.

1:00:04 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:00:04 Speaker 3 You know, bid farewell to their parents at the airport. That's also part of the story.

1:00:07 Speaker 1 Of course. Of course.

1:00:08 Speaker 3 And, and, and, and there is no story without that.

1:00:11 Speaker 1 Right. Right. Um...

1:00:17 Speaker 3 So, uh, uh, I-

1:00:18 Speaker 1 You're, you're a- you asked me a question.

1:00:19 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:00:20 Speaker 1 I, I don't think you're asking me for a timeline. You're not asking me to, like, kind of identify when did, you know, when did the storytellers change their track.

1:00:27 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:27 Speaker 1 'Cause I don't think that's really what happened.

1:00:29 Speaker 3 Right.

1:00:29 Speaker 1 Um, I can't say that I fully agree with your analysis of how every story is told or how we're... A- and the truth is we're two different people, so it could be you heard one thing and I'm hearing something else.

1:00:42 Speaker 3 Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough.

1:00:42 Speaker 1 Um, and also I'm keenly aware of the fact that I haven't s-

1:00:45 Speaker 3 You don't, you don't, you don't, you don't, you don't agree that in general stories became more Rebbe-centric?

1:00:52 Speaker 1 D- depends. In other words, de- depends what you mean by that. I'll, I'll tell you why.

1:00:56 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:00:57 Speaker 1 I, for the longest time, I've been hearing stories about people.

1:01:01 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:01:01 Speaker 1 I'll, I'll give you an... So a simple example, right? So my father, when he was 15 years old, he came to New York for Tisha B'Av, and, and he stayed, basically till he got married. Um, which is a story for itself, I imagine, you know? And he had his own-

1:01:15 Speaker 3 Right

1:01:15 Speaker 1 ... you know, experience, but, you know, he was here for 10 years by the Rebbe. And, um, I distinctly remember that, uh, I think I was 13 or 14, it was in the summer, we were in Crown Heights for a Shabbos, and I remember it was the first time that I had a conversation with my father. He just started to talk about his experiences in 1770, whatever, being in, in, in Crown Heights near the Rebbe from when he was 15 and on. And it was very much about him, you know? Him experiencing, you know, he, he would go very hungry sometimes and whatever, and n- nothing... You know, it w- he wasn't, like, telling me over Freibrengens or, or whatever. It was just his experience there, and I distinctly remember that being the first conversation that ac- that actually drew me into what we call Beis Chayenu. Like, you know-

1:02:02 Speaker 3 Right

1:02:02 Speaker 1 ... it drew me into this world of, of like, you know, the, the goings-on in 1770, which are extremely Rebbe-centric, obviously.

1:02:10 Speaker 3 Right.

1:02:10 Speaker 1 Um, but there's also, like, this, this, this huge amount of arum ... that's going on, and there's people that are experiencing it

1:02:17 Speaker 3 Right. You know why you could identify with it, 'cause you could see yourself in the story.

1:02:20 Speaker 1 Oh, look, okay, because of the homesickness you're saying or-

1:02:23 Speaker 3 No, no

1:02:23 Speaker 1 ... in general?

1:02:24 Speaker 3 No, I mean-

1:02:24 Speaker 1 I'm a Hasid, he's a Hasid.

1:02:25 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

1:02:25 Speaker 1 I could have been there.

1:02:26 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:02:26 Speaker 1 And, and that's, that's true. So-

1:02:28 Speaker 3 But, but you, you are kind of proving my point, 'cause you're telling me it's the first time that you're hearing these kind of stories

1:02:33 Speaker 1 When I was 14.

1:02:35 Speaker 3 Oh, this is-

1:02:36 Speaker 1 I'm saying when I was 14, I was a, I was a young bocher.

1:02:38 Speaker 3 Right, but you're hearing it from your, you're hearing it from your father privately.

1:02:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, but no, my father was telling me-

1:02:43 Speaker 3 You're, you're bringing me an example

1:02:45 Speaker 1 No, no, I'll explain to you what I mean.

1:02:46 Speaker 3 Right. Okay.

1:02:47 Speaker 1 I'm just saying the, the... And since that was one of my first conversations I had with anyone about 770, so going forward, the way I kind of-

1:02:57 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

1:02:57 Speaker 1 ... took things in, even though, yes, a lot, you know, every story is only a s- really a story if it didn't have to do with the Rebbe. If you're talking about a story of 770, there's a lot of silly stories out there. You know what I'm saying? Just kind of people doing things. But even when it's a story about the Rebbe, because I had that conversation with my fa- I think, I think that's one of the reasons. I, I was able to kind of envision, or not envision, but to realize there's people here that are seeing what's going on, that are hearing what the Rebbe is saying-

1:03:25 Speaker 3 Right

1:03:25 Speaker 1 ... that are acting upon it, whatever. Um, so at, at least in my mind, it was never romanticized too much-

1:03:32 Speaker 3 I see

1:03:32 Speaker 1 ... um, out of control without losing the kedusha and the, you know. So again, that, that's why I can't fully agree with your characterization of how, in general, stories of Derech Mitzvah are told that they're completely Rebbe-centric when, you know-

1:03:50 Speaker 3 That wasn't your experience.

1:03:51 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:51 Speaker 3 I mean, fair enough. I mean, that, that, that's valid. That's valid.

1:03:54 Speaker 1 There's definitely... The, the words that people are saying, you're 100% correct. But then the question is always how are people taking it?

1:04:01 Speaker 3 Yes, I mean, that's what I'm talking about. Look, I mean, what you're saying is very valid. I also was lucky to have, you know, I had my zeide who told me all kinds of stories in the first person.

1:04:14 Speaker 1 Right.

1:04:14 Speaker 3 Right? So his relationship with the Rebbe was a very unique relationship, and, um, was always... I, I, I could, I could see him there, so in a way, I could see myself there, you know. So personally, I agree with you that I, I, it didn't feel like it was just the Rebbe, nothing else. But that doesn't, that doesn't mean that I wasn't aware that the way stories are told and the point of the story is always, you know, at the, at the end, the point of the story is the Rebbe was right, right? At the end of the, you know

1:04:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, the story about the Rebbe. Okay.

1:04:47 Speaker 3 You know what I'm saying? Like, look, I mean-

1:04:47 Speaker 1 I hear... Yeah, 100%

1:04:49 Speaker 3 And, and, and, you know, I am sure that for some people that does a world of good, but, you know, there, there's... And, and also there's no doubt that that's a massive part of the s- of the story.

1:05:04 Speaker 1 Right.

1:05:04 Speaker 3 Right? There's no doubt. But all I'm saying is... And for some people, it might be more of the story that, and some people less of the story, depending on how much the Rebbe occupies your life. Fine. Open to all of that. All I'm saying is, is that there's also another part of the story, okay? Someone will say I'm, I'm trying to, trying to, like... Really, I mean that it's more of the story. It's a part of the story. For every person, it'll, they'll decide how much of the story this is and how much of the story that is. At the end of the day, that, it's not for anybody to decide for anybody else. But I, I do feel like, like it's certainly part of the story, and, you know, and, and, and in a way, hopefully this conversation did a little bit of justice to, to a part of the story that, I mean, God knows need, needs to be a much bigger part of the story. You know, and, like, people will say, you know, "Why are you bringing up these kind of topics? Why are you bringing up the challenges of shlichus?" And we haven't even scratched the surface, baby. Like

1:06:02 Speaker 1 We just started the conversation.

1:06:02 Speaker 3 I'm just saying. Like, like, like, no, I'm talking about on this specific topic of leaving home. I mean, I could go on for hours. It seems like you are a little bit more blasé about it, at least publicly. But I mean, I know, I know. God knows, God knows what I've heard. But why am I bringing it up? Because... Is it, is it to, is it to break the silence or break the taboo or whatever? No, it-

1:06:25 Speaker 1 No, there is a taboo

1:06:26 Speaker 3 No, I'm, I'm saying it, it's, it's because shlichu- because it, to me, it doesn't diminish the story of shlichus at all.

1:06:33 Speaker 1 Exactly.

1:06:34 Speaker 3 It doesn't diminish the sto- it doesn't diminish the story of shlichus. And even if, like my brother and I discussed, that we believe, and not everyone has to agree with this, that mistakes were made and people did things that were wrong or that things need to be changed-

1:06:48 Speaker 1 That could be true

1:06:49 Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm saying, I'm saying that could also... Even if you agree with us, with what we discussed, that things, that these are true, that's also part of the story. The, the... Until Mashiach comes, mistakes are being made and things are going wrong. Now, that doesn't give an excuse to therefore say, "That's always how it's been. Let's just keep on, keep on, you know, kicking the can down the road." You know, hopefully things are changing, and I think in many ways they are, you know. And at the end of the day, people are living their lives. They don't want their kids to, they don't want their kids to go through what they went through. They wanna fix the things that went wrong for them, for their kids. People are gonna try to improve things, right? So it's not... I, I, I don't feel like I'm the guy saying that things are, should get better. Everybody knows that, right? My, my point is merely that we can talk about shlichus and under- and, and talk about the humanity of it and the side of it that's difficult without diminishing the story, right?

1:07:42 Speaker 1 Yeah. Of course. Of course.

1:07:44 Speaker 3 On the other hand, you could say that there is no good story in the world that's ever been written that hasn't, that doesn't deal with the pain. And I'm talking about fiction, but really it's any story. There's a famous, famous writer, I think it was Tolstoy, who said that every family dies the same or every family, every happy family has the same story. It's the sad families that have a interesting story. And, and he starts one of his biggest novels with that line. But it's true about any good story that you hear. It could even be a chassidishe maise when you think about it. A chassidishe maise doesn't have- ... pain in it, doesn't have a, a, a little bit of, of suffering in it, it's, it doesn't mean anything to you because what, what does it do for me? Good for them, like La La Land.

1:08:29 Speaker 1 Right, right.

1:08:29 Speaker 3 Right? This is the story. This is a story of people who went out and didn't... and, and, and, and went out because they were trying to be part of the Rebbe's mission, and they didn't know what it would mean for their kids, and then they realized it would mean some hard things for their kids, and they very often didn't know what to do about it, and they persevered and maybe made mistakes. That's also part of the story.

1:08:51 Speaker 1 You know, uh, in Teshuv- I think it's Teshuva Mimchas, by the Keneses Shluchim. If you look at the over there, the Rebbe talks about the fact that shluchim have, have gone out, and you see that they were successful in the of their kids, and they have parnasah and they made shidduchim. Like, you know, if you think about it, you know, Tosh Nin Yod. Let's put it this way, the story of shlichus actually does not make sense on paper.

1:09:15 Speaker 3 That's a very good point.

1:09:16 Speaker 1 That... in other words, you're saying like, you know, there's an abstraction that makes sense on paper. It actually does not make sense on paper.

1:09:20 Speaker 3 That's a very valid point.

1:09:21 Speaker 1 And logically speaking, it, it doesn't make it... You know, i-i-it's in Tosh Nin Yod, you know, for the Rebbe to plan on taking all of his talmidim and sending them out, et cetera, it was contrary to any type of-

1:09:32 Speaker 3 Right

1:09:32 Speaker 1 ... uh, normal way of rebuilding Judaism after the Holocaust.

1:09:35 Speaker 3 A sin were against it.

1:09:36 Speaker 1 E-exactly. Um-

1:09:37 Speaker 3 The, the big, the big sin were against it.

1:09:39 Speaker 1 So on paper, it didn't work out.

1:09:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:42 Speaker 1 30 years later, the Rebbe says, "I have the goods to show for it."

1:09:45 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:45 Speaker 1 And you see that in the Keneses Shluchim Mimchas, the Rebbe made a big the Rebbe like said, it, it's in bold in the mugga. It's a to all the talmidim that are here, all the bachurim,

1:09:57 Speaker 3 Right.

1:09:57 Speaker 1 In other words, the Rebbe's saying, "Okay, I have a kinus here. All the shluchim came back. Look at them. I mean, they're, they're humans, right?

1:10:02 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:02 Speaker 1 They're not all tzadikim, and not necessarily everything worked out. But for the main part, this, you know, this is working. They have children. They're making shidduchim. They're grandparents already. Um, now you don't just have to trust me. Now you can just see what, what's going on.

1:10:18 Speaker 3 But I mean, that kind of undercuts your earlier point. I mean, the first point that you make is a great point about, like, you know, it, it only became... it only began working on paper years later, but-

1:10:27 Speaker 1 I didn't say that it starts to work on paper

1:10:28 Speaker 3 ... yeah. It still doesn't-

1:10:29 Speaker 1 I mean, in other words, that's what I, that's what I'm saying

1:10:30 Speaker 3 ... fundamentally it doesn't work on paper.

1:10:31 Speaker 1 So I think this is the Rebbe's way of basically saying

1:10:36 Speaker 3 Right. But-

1:10:37 Speaker 1 And, um-

1:10:37 Speaker 3 ... it kind of undercuts your point that you said earlier, which is that, that that's not the def- that doesn't define the success of shlichus-

1:10:44 Speaker 1 That's also true

1:10:45 Speaker 3 ... at all, right?

1:10:45 Speaker 1 But if everything would fail-

1:10:46 Speaker 3 Okay

1:10:47 Speaker 1 ... right? If, if, if it wouldn't work out at all-

1:10:49 Speaker 3 Right

1:10:49 Speaker 1 ... if it's completely not feasible, then what are we doing, right?

1:10:51 Speaker 3 Right. Right. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's a very good point that you're making, and I think it's also very important to make that point because whenever you engage in any kind of conversation of critique, very often it, it's disproportionate in the cer- in the sake of the con- in the terms of the conversation, right? 'Cause all we're talking about is this one point, and it's like, it, it, it can magnify and sound... it can magnify the issue and make it sound like, "Oh, the whole thing fell apart." And it's like, wait a second. A lot ha- a lot of good happened here, right? Right? There's a lot of good here. A-a-and I guess my, you know, I mean-

1:11:24 Speaker 1 There's a mission that is happening

1:11:25 Speaker 3 There's a, there's a, there's a lot of good. Yeah, so, so, so to wrap, to wrap things up a little bit and bring things full circle, you know, uh, the one, one, one of the... We, we both grew up on shlichus, um, in v-varying distances from New York. Although, although-

1:11:42 Speaker 1 I tip my hat to you, that's for sure.

1:11:43 Speaker 3 Although, although it turns out, it turns out around... I mean, COVID kind of did a number on Hong Kong, but it turns out that, um, we had a direct flight to New York when you didn't. So whatever. I mean-

1:11:53 Speaker 1 I had a direct flight to Chicago.

1:11:54 Speaker 3 It... Yeah. Well, who-

1:11:55 Speaker 1 I, I have to, I have to say-

1:11:56 Speaker 3 Who needs to go to Chicago?

1:11:57 Speaker 1 No, I'm saying in my case, to, in order to go to my chinuch-

1:12:01 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:01 Speaker 1 ... let's put it this way. It's not like I was traveling a full day to get to where I had to be to. And also-

1:12:05 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:05 Speaker 1 ... my parents always told me, "Whenever you wanna come home for a Shabbos, you can come." They never, ever told me... I think this is an important point, at least that works for me. My parents never told me, "We don't have money to bring you in," or-

1:12:16 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:16 Speaker 1 ... you know, they, you know, they, only once in two months. They said, "Whenever you want to come, you can come." And I never took them up.

1:12:22 Speaker 3 Right.

1:12:23 Speaker 1 I came back every once in two months, you know, between Tisha and then Hanukkah, and then winter vacation, and then Pesach. It was, you know, it turn- it worked out that way for me. I and my parents were very, very adamant that I should know, that-

1:12:35 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:12:35 Speaker 1 ... you can come home whenever you want. So that, in other words, I don't wanna say that we all had the s- the, the same, how you say, circumstances and, you know-

1:12:44 Speaker 3 No, no

1:12:44 Speaker 1 ... different, uh-

1:12:44 Speaker 3 But I mean, I, I didn't understand it that way. I also don't... To me, when I think about going away from home, I don't think about-

1:12:51 Speaker 1 It's all the same. Same

1:12:51 Speaker 3 ... I don't think about it like a 10-hour flight. I mean, yeah, it sounds even more ridiculous when you put it that way, like-

1:12:57 Speaker 1 Right

1:12:57 Speaker 3 ... I didn't only fly two hours away. I didn't only fly 10 hours away. I flew 10 hours away to a different continent.

1:13:02 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:02 Speaker 3 Okay? And, and the big coup in my case was that we found a city that was a 10-hour flight away, but it was only a two-hour time difference.

1:13:11 Speaker 1 Australia, in Melbourne.

1:13:11 Speaker 3 Australia. So, so this way I could call my parents during the day, and I wasn't like, you know... But yeah, I, I couldn't fly home every other Shabbos. That was just not, nothing to do with money. It was ne-

1:13:22 Speaker 1 Right. Right

1:13:22 Speaker 3 ... money was never the issue that I under- that I knew of. It was just like, uh, ti- you know, phy-physi- like by the time you would fly back, you'd be, yeah, you'd just be home, uh, the whole time. But, um, but yeah, I, I didn't underst- I, I didn't understand that you were tr- that you were saying that everyone has the same story. A-and within my family, we had different stories, and different circumstances, and different situations. You know, it, it's... And I've heard stories of shluchim's kids who left home to go an hour drive or two-hour drive, and they would come home every Shabbos.

1:13:55 Speaker 1 And they also had, uh, tough times.

1:13:56 Speaker 3 A-a-and it was devastating for them.

1:13:57 Speaker 1 Right.

1:13:57 Speaker 3 You know, it, it's about the child, it's about the parents, it's about where they stay, it's about their class, right? If you don't get along with your classmates in your new school, it makes you miserable. If you do get along, it, it definitely helps. There's so many things. There's so... I'm sure not all your siblings had the same exact experience, right?

1:14:14 Speaker 1 No. I don't.

1:14:14 Speaker 3 You don't have to talk for them, but I'm sure they didn't all have the same experience. Um, so that's not the point. The point is more just... The point that, uh, we, we, we've made the points, but what I wanted, what I wanted to, what I wanted to kind of close with is one of the differences, uh, besides the varying lengths of our flights to school, is that you went back home, and you, and you continued. You, you went back, you went back to where it all started and started the cycle again. Um, was this something that ever factored in for you? Um, you know, realizing that, like we just said, just 'cause it worked out for you, the odds are not entirely stacked in your favor. You know, do you wanna do that all over again? And also, and also realizing that, like you said earlier, as hard as it was for you, it was even harder for your father. Now you're the father.

1:15:04 Speaker 1 Right. Honestly speaking, I did not make any in-depth analysis.

1:15:09 Speaker 3 Mm.

1:15:10 Speaker 1 And, uh, let's put it this way. The chinuch of shlichus or the chinuch of Lubavitch where you were, were, were... A friend of mine said, "If I would know how hard Shlichus was, I wouldn't go." Right?

1:15:20 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:20 Speaker 1 And so my, my... Okay, so thank God you didn't know how hard it was.

1:15:23 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:15:24 Speaker 1 But what's my point?

1:15:25 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:27 Speaker 1 At, at a certain point, and it could be what always was in my psyche, I had made that decision I'm going to be a Shluchah one day. I, I want to be a Shluchah one day. And by the way, I never took that for granted.

1:15:37 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:37 Speaker 1 What I mean by that is I know others that, let's say, grew up in the same situation, and they didn't end up on Shlichus for various reasons, right?

1:15:43 Speaker 3 Right.

1:15:43 Speaker 1 So I, I can never know for sure what's going to happen. Uh, it all depends on who you marry and if they're ready to do it, et cetera. Um, but I, I never really overanalyzed the situation and said, "Oh, am I ready to send my child away? Am I ready for that type of experience?" It's like I made the commitment to go on Shlichus, and if that Shlichus means I go back home to El Paso, then yes, and I'm acutely aware that it's going to be challenging, but this is, this is the game. This is, this is what we're doing. Um, so, and, and, and I think just for myself, it was healthier not to dwell on the what, you know, what's going to happen and how will it be, 'cause you never know. You really never know how your children are going to... What their character is going to be, what, you know, their disposition. If it's gonna be easier for them or harder for them, and when you're going to send them away from home. So I, you know, honestly, I, I didn't find it... At least for me, I never really thought about that. I just thought about I want to go on Shlichus, and here is an opportunity. We're going to do this.

1:16:40 Speaker 3 And now?

1:16:42 Speaker 1 I also don't, I don't dwell on it. It... Things are tough sometimes. Baruch Hashem, you know, I'm, I'm by my parents, and, um, they're very good, very supportive, very helpful. Um, you know, they're "" I'm saying. I don't have to translate what that... I don't know if you could even translate that.

1:16:57 Speaker 3 Are you still working with your father after 10 years?

1:16:59 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm working with my father, and I'm very happy there, and I'm very thankful.

1:17:01 Speaker 3 That's a, that's a good compliment you could get.

1:17:02 Speaker 1 Exactly. I'm still there, and I'm very thankful, and, you know, I have no other plans. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm plans-

1:17:07 Speaker 3 I, I'm talking more about your kids. They give-

1:17:08 Speaker 1 Right, even with my children, Baruch Hashem, there's an online school.

1:17:11 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:11 Speaker 1 So that helps. But again, that, that's not a, you know... That doesn't automatically mean that the child is going to take to the class and be able to s-sit in front of the computer screen the whole day, et cetera. It's a, it's a daily ongoing challenge.

1:17:21 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:22 Speaker 1 And you make it work. This is, you know... Or you try to make it work. Sometimes it just doesn't.

1:17:26 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:27 Speaker 1 Um, but this is it. It's not like I'm thinking to myself, you know, "Maybe I should be doing something other." What would I, what would I gain from that?

1:17:33 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:34 Speaker 1 Also, 70 years after Shlichus has been ongoing, I could have a certain confidence in the fact that this could work. I mean, proof to that, you know, we're... I'm here, and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll make this work as best as we can.

1:17:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:17:50 Speaker 1 But the main thing is I, I never feel guilty complaining to myself. Like, "Oh man, this is tough." So, oh, and so why are you complaining? You're supposed to be a Shluchah because always be Simcha. This is part of Simcha, you know what I mean?

1:18:01 Speaker 3 It, it-

1:18:01 Speaker 1 Being in tune with what's going on-

1:18:03 Speaker 3 Right

1:18:03 Speaker 1 ...it's part of Simcha.

1:18:04 Speaker 3 Right.

1:18:04 Speaker 1 Right?

1:18:04 Speaker 3 You're allowed to have a tough day. You're allowed to have-

1:18:06 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:18:06 Speaker 3 ...you're allowed to have doubts.

1:18:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:07 Speaker 3 Are you allowed to have, are you allowed to have doubts?

1:18:09 Speaker 1 Sure, why not?

1:18:10 Speaker 3 No.

1:18:11 Speaker 1 But I have to, I have to identify where they're coming from. I know they're coming from the Yetzer Hara, and, uh, so.

1:18:17 Speaker 3 Okay. When you-

1:18:17 Speaker 1 You're, you're allowed to have everything and anything. You can't control that.

1:18:20 Speaker 3 Right.

1:18:20 Speaker 1 You can't control doubts.

1:18:21 Speaker 3 Right.

1:18:22 Speaker 1 You could ignore it. You can convince yourself you're not having them, but whatever.

1:18:25 Speaker 3 Right. Right. So when you come to the Kinis, we're sitting here in Crown Heights in the thick of the Kinis, um, you know, this is... And, and we can wrap up with this. I know you have to go. Um, you know, one, one of the things my brother discussed was that, you know, he, he couldn't really identify with the, with, with the kids in Hong Kong 'cause he was a rabbi's son, and he couldn't identify with the kids in... He also went to Chicago, it turns out. Um, for however long that lasted. He couldn't identify with them because he was from Hong Kong. Um, you know, you grew up in El Paso. You went to Yeshiva, and then you went back to El Paso. When you come, when you come to Crown Heights, do you feel like... For a lot of people, Crown Heights is the place, but, but you're, y-you're, you're more an El Paso guy, aren't you? Like, how do you, how do you, how do you see yourself as a Lubavitcher? Are you... Like, is there... I-is it just one long, consistent path that kind of made a de-

1:19:27 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

1:19:27 Speaker 3 ...it made a detour for a little bit, but El Paso all the way through, Shlichus all the way through, or, or do you feel at home as well in, in, in this world and-

1:19:36 Speaker 1 Absolutely at home in this world.

1:19:38 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:19:38 Speaker 1 In other words, for me personally, this is, this is who I am. Um-

1:19:43 Speaker 3 Even in Crown Heights?

1:19:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Definitely. I mean, obviously, it's, it's wonderful. That's where this... Coming to the Kinus, it's not just about, I don't know, workshops and things like that. It's more about seeing friends and, you know-

1:19:55 Speaker 3 Sure

1:19:55 Speaker 1 ...speaking with fellow Shluchim. And not just that, I mean, Crown Heights is a, is a, is a neighborhood full of Hasidim, you know?

1:20:00 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:00 Speaker 1 I, I, I enjoy being here. It's not the only time that I come to Crown Heights, uh-

1:20:05 Speaker 3 Right

1:20:05 Speaker 1 ...the Kinus. You know, so it's, uh... If you're asking me if I feel absolutely at home in Lubavitch, uh, you know, in other words, in Lubavitch of, of being this-

1:20:13 Speaker 3 In this, in this part, in this part of Lubavitch.

1:20:15 Speaker 1 Of course.

1:20:15 Speaker 3 The, the outside of Shlichus Lubavitch.

1:20:17 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:18 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:20:18 Speaker 1 I mean, I, I have many friends who are not Shluchim, and, and Hasidish friends.

1:20:23 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:23 Speaker 1 You know, and I have some, uh... When, when I come and I have a farbrengen, it's not only with Shluchim, and it's with, you know...

1:20:30 Speaker 3 Right.

1:20:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, we're, you know.

1:20:32 Speaker 3 Right. Look, it, it's, um, it's, it's... You know, I, I think for me, the takeaway, the takeaway from all this is that, you know, the beautiful thing of a story is that it can hold contradictions. I think that's what makes it, that's what makes, that's what makes a story great. You know, we're talking about... And I know this is, this is something I th- that I, that I brought up, uh, you know, um, a theory that I brought up Um, so whatever it's worth in the first place. But, you know, like things that work out on paper and abstractions, a story, the... A story is really the opposite of an abstraction.

1:21:12 Speaker 1 Right.

1:21:12 Speaker 3 Right? Because an ab- like, a, a story that's too abstract doesn't work, right? Mainly because an abstraction gets too carried away with its own internal logic, and a story is all about kind of-

1:21:22 Speaker 1 What happened

1:21:23 Speaker 3 ... what happened and, and, and finding a, a more human logic, a, a human rhythm to it. Um, right? And it's a very different kind of logic. And I think the g- the takeaway I get from this conversation is that, you know, your story is one that, you know, um, I, I think people could see on the surface that, "Oh, yeah, we grew up in El Paso, and you, you live in El Paso. Yeah, it was just, it was a straight line, and okay, so good for you," right? But I, that's not what I... You know, I think over the course of the conversation, that's not what I'm taking away from. That's not what I'm taking away from it. What I'm taking away from it is that, is that, you know, your story is one of all kinds of different, of all different kinds of parts, different contradictions, and that story can also end up back on shlichas, right? Like, to have a story that has its own challenges and ups and downs doesn't mean you have to leave.

1:22:21 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

1:22:23 Speaker 3 A, a long way of saying I think, I think that's a valuable takeaway as well, and I think that's why you wanted to come on as well, is that, like, we don't always have to... That the, the, the... Everybody has their own story, everybody has their own journey, but not every story that's worth saying is a... A story, in order for a story to be worth saying, doesn't have to be a story that has, like, quote-unquote, "a bad ending"-

1:22:46 Speaker 1 A different, or a different ending or whatever

1:22:48 Speaker 3 ... or like a, or like a d- like a-

1:22:49 Speaker 1 Like how do you get from here to there? Yeah.

1:22:51 Speaker 3 Right. You, you grew up in El Paso. You live in El Paso. You're back on shlichas in El Paso. It seems like that's where you're gonna be for a very long time, am Israel tzadik, right?

1:22:59 Speaker 1 Amen.

1:23:00 Speaker 3 Right? Right. And, and that's... There's a story there too. There's a story worth exploring and a story that you live and a story for me, worth for me to hear, and a w- story worth to share.

1:23:11 Speaker 1 Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity, and, uh, I enjoyed the conversation.

1:23:15 Speaker 3 Right. Do you have any takeaways that you wanna say?

1:23:18 Speaker 1 I, I just think it's important that people should realize that, um, we're human, and, and even when things look like they're working out for someone else or they're, you know, "Oh, this is like the perfect situation, perfect story," whatever. Every story has its baggage, has its thing, and it's not because of someone's decisions, someone else's mistakes, whatever. That's life.

1:23:41 Speaker 3 Right.

1:23:41 Speaker 1 Um, and we just, you know, we hope and pray that life, you know, that, that we're able to overcome whatever challenges it is, and we're able to make the right choices, you know?

1:23:49 Speaker 3 Right. Right. So th- thank you very much. This was a great conversation. Thank you for your time. I know the conference is a busy few days, um, but, uh, thank you.

1:24:00 Speaker 1 Hatzlacha rabah.

1:24:00 Speaker 3 Hatzlacha rabah. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bachar and is used with their permission.