Ep. 10 // "America Is Nisht Andersh" with Rebbetzin Bassie Garelik

00:00 Speaker 1 And so when he asked me, "Where do you want to live after you get married?" He thought I was gonna say Pittsburgh where my family is. I said, "Wherever the Rebbe will send us." Later on, he told me, he says, "Had you thrown a bucket of ice water on me rather than that ans- you couldn't have shocked me more." He wasn't expecting such an answer from an American girl.

00:23 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-three. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Okay. Thank you very much for taking the time, uh, to do this interview today. I'm sitting today with Mrs. Gorelik, Rebbetzin Gorelik from Milan, Italy. And Rebbetzin Gorelik has a very, uh, personal connection to me in the sense that she taught my wife. My wife is from Milan, Italy, and my wife was a student of hers, um, some would say a long time ago, some would say not so long ago, depending on how you look at time. But, uh, that's a, that's certainly a, a connection that means a lot to me, of course. But the reason I, I asked you to come on this podcast and asked if you'd be willing to come on this podcast was because I feel that you could shed some insight onto a part of Lubavitch history, which is, in my mind, very, very important and often, or at least it seems kind of looked over, overlooked. And that is the Lubavitch of the years right after World War II, right? Or the, the Lubavitch in America right after World War II when the Friediker Rebbe just arrives here, and America is not the same America as it is today, right? And I, I think-- I, I mean, I'm not sure. I came here to ask questions, not to tell you what I think. But I have a

02:07 Speaker 2 feeling that there are many, many things that we can learn from that era to our era today. I think, I think there are, there are many things that we've kind of neg-- we've kind of forgotten or ignored, or at least to put it in a positive way, there are things that I would like to learn more about. So thank you very much for coming on.

02:26 Speaker 1 My pleasure.

02:26 Speaker 2 And I very much look forward to this conversation. So, so let's start, let's start right there. Why don't you, why don't you start off by saying, you know, how your family got to America around when you were born. If, uh, I know that-

02:40 Speaker 1 Okay.

02:40 Speaker 2 'cause sometimes you have sensitive question, but-

02:42 Speaker 1 No, no, it's not sensitive at all. First of all, my parents are both from Russia. They emigrated to Palestine, Eretz Yisrael, obviously. They got married there, had my two older brothers, then came to America. They came to America. They lived in New Jersey for a while. And then the Rebbe was not yet in America, but there were Hasidim in New York that were sort of like trying to spread Hasidism or some-- And they told my father that he should move to Chicago and become a Shamash in the Bnei Reuven Shul, which was the Lubavitcher shul in Chicago. And I was born there. I was born in nineteen thirty-eight. I'm a very tender eighty-five years old. Eighty-four years old. Okay. Anyway-

03:28 Speaker 2 Can I, can I, may I ask you?

03:30 Speaker 1 Okay. Um, I don't think I want that, but anyway. Okay. So then from Chicago, the Re-- the Friediker Rebbe in nineteen forty came to America, and in forty-two, forty-three, 'cause I was probably not more than four, four-- not even, maybe three, four, five years old. I don't remember exactly. The Rebbe sent my parents to Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

03:56 Speaker 2 One second. Just to clarify, by Rebbe in this, in this part of the conversation, you're referring to the Friediker Rebbe?

04:01 Speaker 1 Absolutely. In nineteen forty.

04:02 Speaker 2 Okay.

04:03 Speaker 1 Okay.

04:03 Speaker 2 Okay. No, I just want to clarify that-

04:04 Speaker 1 Absolutely

04:04 Speaker 2 ...for people listening. Yeah.

04:05 Speaker 1 Absolutely. And, um, and so we moved to Pittsburgh. Okay? Now when-- As you were giving the introduction here, I was thinking of some things very, very clearly, things that have ne-never left me, no matter how long ago it was. We were living in Pittsburgh. I had-- Um, I always say I was a very lucky person because I was always surrounded by smart, good people that loved me. First of all, my parents, of course, the Rebbe. Even when I went to Bais Yaakov, my, my menehelis. Th- and then, of course, when I got married, my wonderful husband. So I was really very lucky in that sense. I grew up with a lot of security around me. And still, in those years in Pittsburgh, for instance, I went to public school because my father started the yeshiva in Pittsburgh, which really was a day school.

04:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:56 Speaker 1 It was called Yeshiva Chaitamin. It was a day school, but it was only for boys. I went to public school. And my father had a beard. He was a Lubavitcher Hasid. In Pittsburgh at the time, there were only two men that had beards. One was a Rebbe that was always in his house. He didn't walk around the streets. And one was the shochet that lived right upstairs from the, uh, butcher shop. And so he just went up or down. And so my father walked the streets of Pittsburgh because he was trying to find children for the yeshiva. And so this was the reaction I was getting as a young child: "Is your father Santa Claus? I mean, who else has a beard? Santa Claus. Is your father a hundred years old? I mean, who else has a beard?" People-- If we would walk in the street, people would practically fall out of their cars looking at him because he had a beard. And at that time, the Friediker Rebbe was sending Bochurim to Pittsburgh to be teachers in the yeshiva. And one of these was Rabbi Dovid Adelman. Rabbi Dovid Adelman was a teacher All, all the, all the bochrim that the Rebbe sent were very special boys. But I remember this particular scene, which I will never forget. I was not more than five, six years old at the time. Okay, I'll say a lot, seven years old. He and I were walking up Murray Avenue. I can even tell you the exact spot.

06:22 Speaker 1 And I turn to him, and I say, "Rabbi Alelman, aren't you ashamed to walk in the street with your beard?" And he looks down at me and he says, "Ashamed? I'm proud of my beard." And I remember at the time thinking, "This guy is nuts. He doesn't even have the sense to be ashamed. He's even proud." And even though that was the effect that it had on me at the time, those words were so ingrained in my heart that I tell you today, eighty years later practically, I remember that scene explicitly.

06:59 Speaker 2 Wow.

07:00 Speaker 1 But that's to tell you what America was like then.

07:03 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:04 Speaker 1 Okay? A lot of the Rosh Yeshivas didn't have beards.

07:08 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

07:09 Speaker 1 And here, Lubavitch was teaching these young American boys that they should wear beards. Now, my older brother, Zalman, who-- very smart, very handsome guy, you know. If someone would stop him and say, "Uh, uh, hi, guy. Reb, Reb, are you, uh..." No, if he would say to him, "Okay, can I help you? Do you need any help?" Thinking that he was a refugee, because who else has a beard? He would answer, "No, no, this isn't... That's not it, so you don't have to help me." But if someone was a little bit mm and said, "Hey, guy, what are you doing with that beard?" He'd say, "Get a move on it, buddy." Look, I, of course, would have a terrible... He knew how to answer each person. But I myself, and my brothers, my siblings, we grew up in a family where Lubavitch, Rebbe, Chasidis, Yiddishkeit bachlal, it was a natural. No, no, no, um, lectures, no trying to convince. My parents lived it. And the way they lived it, that is how it was transmitted to us. I'll give you another example. In nineteen forty-six, forty-seven, forty-five or six, seventy, a lot of the Lubavitchers came out of Russia. They came out as Pers-- as Polish citizens-

08:34 Speaker 2 Sure

08:34 Speaker 1 ...because Russia was repatriating the Polish citizens. So they made false paper. Like on my husband's passport, he was born in Vilna, Poland. He never saw the place. Okay? They came out. When they came out, of course, these refugees are coming out of Russia and so on. The Friidiker Rebbe wanted to send two bochrim to Paris, where they were, and to give them, you know, some encouragement and so on and so forth. And one of the boys was my brother. Now, here's the scene I'm going to describe-

09:03 Speaker 2 It was your brother Zalman.

09:04 Speaker 1 My brother Zalman, right. It's my oldest brother. And this is the scene I'm going to describe to you. Again, here I was maybe eight years old, not more. My mother did not want my brother to go to France, to go to Europe for this purpose because she was afraid that my brother didn't have smichah yet. She was afraid if he goes out of the yeshiva now, and going to Europe meant a half a year at least because you went by boat. You didn't fly.

09:34 Speaker 2 Right.

09:34 Speaker 1 And then he would be there a few months. And then she was afraid that when he would come back, he wouldn't go back into yeshiva, and she was very worried about that. So what is the scene I'm describing to you? My mother is crying. "I don't want him to go. I'm not sending..." And my f-- And, and she thought that the Rebbe's son-in-law, the Rashag, chose the two bochrim that were going to go. "Let him choose his son. Why is he choosing my son?" So my father said to her, "Let's call New York and find out who is sending the boys." Okay, so here you see this scene. My mother is standing and crying. My father takes the telephone. In those days, the telephone lies this and like this, all right? That's the kind of telephone we had then. I was a kid playing on the floor listening to the Lone Ranger on the radio. So my parents weren't paying attention to me at all. I was just observing this scene. And as my father is talking on the phone to the Rebbe's secretary, he turns to my mother and he says three words: "This is from the Rebbe." In other words, it's the Rebbe that decided. When you push, uh, the button to turn on the light, the switch, how long does it take from when you push it and the light goes on? That's exactly how long it took for my mother to stop crying. When she heard this is coming from the

10:52 Speaker 1 Rebbe, he was the one that chose the place, she stopped, she was getting ready, and she's going to get him to go. These are the images that I carry with me. These are the images that whenever I... I know this has nothing maybe to do with this. You can stop me whenever you want. But when I went to Bais Yaakov, I went to Bais Yaakov, not to Bais Rivkah because at the time Bais Rivkah was up to, let's say, fifth grade, and I was already in eighth grade. Although a chasid, Reb, um, Ben Zion Shemtov, when he heard I'm in Bais Yaakov, he says to my mother, "What do you mean Bais Yaakov?" My mother said, "Well, she's, she's in eighth grade. She's not in fifth." "Well, let her pretend she knows less and go to fifth grade." Well, okay, my parents weren't ready to do that. But in any case, in Bais Yaakov then, I was in Bais Yaakov from nineteen fifty to fifty-five. First of all, the Rebbe had already taken on the Nasius. But not just that, the whole Inyan of Rebbe was still very new in America. The whole Inyan of Chasidus... I mean, I remember in Williamsburg on Lee Avenue, there was the, um... All right, the different Rebbeim that had their things. But of course, women weren't involved in any of this. And then when the Rebbe took on the Nasius and when he started to have Habrangenish, and the women would come. Like, we were very involved, and

12:07 Speaker 1 it was very, you know. So everybody in Bais Yaakov knew that I was a Lubavitcher. They didn't say Chabad then, they said Lubavitch. I was a Lubavitcher. And you know, it was like, you know, to me Lubavitch was, was my life. Okay. When we girls would talk about shidduchim, about getting married, I would say, "I don't wanna be number one by my husband. I wanna be number two. The Rebbe has to be number one."

12:35 Speaker 2 You must be joking.

12:36 Speaker 1 I'm not joking. When my husband asked me where I wanna live after we get married, and I answered him, "Wherever the Rebbe will send us," he himself was very surprised. To me, it was the most natural answer I could have given.

12:54 Speaker 2 Why was it so natural?

12:56 Speaker 1 Be- That's exactly what I'm telling you. Because to me, when people talk about mesirat nefesh to go on shlichus, I say I would have needed more mesirat nefesh not to go on shlichus than to go on shlichus. To me it was... As a matter of fact, in my-

13:10 Speaker 2 But, but not, but not everyone was like that, right? So-

13:12 Speaker 1 Obviously, obviously, obviously. But that's what I'm telling you. This is the attitude that was instilled in us naturally.

13:22 Speaker 2 In your family.

13:22 Speaker 1 This is the way our parents lived. This was our life. Rebbe was the most... They never, never, never preached Rebbe to us. Never. They lived it.

13:31 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:31 Speaker 1 They lived it.

13:32 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

13:32 Speaker 1 I mean, watching my husband say-- my father saying to my mother, "It's coming from the Rebbe," and that was enough for her to stop and to change her mind. That's not something that happens all the time. For my father and my mother, and my older brothers and sisters, 'cause I was the fifth of six children, and watching this, to them, Rebbe was number one. It was important. And so to me, it was natural. It was as natural as you have to keep Shabbos and you have to keep kosher, and Rebbe is Rebbe. So again, for me to go on shlichus, for me to follow the Rebbe... There were three, four girls that came into our class that were Lubavitcher girls. These were four girls that had come out of Russia, and, uh, so it was like a little bit... I was the one, I was a Bais Yaakov girl, but I was also like the, a medium between them and the rest of the girls. Well, when these girls got married, one of them married a, a, a Bachur Yishuv, and the Rebbe sent them to Detroit. Whoa, that was far, right? We were in New York. From New York to Detroit is far. Another one got married, and they were sent to California. Wow! You can't get further than that. You have to jump into the ocean to be further than that. And I wanted to be the one that's furthest away. I get engaged to this boy. He's a Mashpia in New Jersey.

14:46 Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, I was so embarrassed. And, and he, for various reasons, I, I don't think this, it's interesting here now to know why. He didn't wanna move a step away from the Rebbe. I didn't know all this, though. I didn't know this when he proposed to me. I didn't know this when we were talking about marriage. And so when he asked me, "Where do you wanna live after you get married?" He thought I was gonna say Pittsburgh where my family is. I said, "Wherever the Rebbe will send us." Later on, he told me, he says, "Had you thrown a bucket of ice water on me rather than that ans- you couldn't have shocked me more." He wasn't expecting such an answer from an American girl. But to me, it was the most natural, normal answer. That is what I lived for. I was jealous of these two girls 'cause I wanted to go further, but how do you go further? It never even occurred to me, like going over the ocean or whatever it is. Okay. We got engaged, and in, in that period of time, or even maybe when we were first married, when we first arrived, I wrote to the Rebbe three times, "Send us wherever you want. Send us wherever you want. Send us wherever you want." And again, I say my h- I, I didn't know the whole history of my husband's thing. It, it's a cute thing, but I don't think that's what you wanna hear now anyway. Okay.

16:01 Speaker 1 At a certain point, this was very... My husband didn't have a, a regular passport. So the secretary told him, you, you know, "Get your passport in order." When we heard that, we figured we're not gonna be in the-- You don't need a passport to go to Detroit. If he, if we nee- if he needs a passport, it means we'll be going overseas somewhere. So I remember saying to him, "Look," I-- We were only married two months. I said, "Look, my parents hardly know you. If we're going to be going over the, you know, overseas somewhere, who knows when we'll come back? Come home a little bit. Let them get to know you." "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. If we're going to be going so far away, you go home. I have to stay next to the Rebbe." So I lo- I love when people talk about Shanah Hatovah, you know, the first year, you know. The two months, we were married two months, he sent me home for three weeks. He would call me from New York every day. And one day he calls me and he says, "By the way," he met Rabbi Chadakov, the Rebbe's secretary. "And by the way," Rabbi Chadakov tells him, "If you wanna know where you're going, you're going to Europe." He said, "Oh, really? Where in Europe? What difference does it make?" "Italy. Let's say Italy. You're going to Italy." And he called me up and tells, "We're going to Italy." Okay.

17:09 Speaker 2 Rabbi Chadakov said, "What difference does it make?"

17:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Perfect. That's how, that's how my husband told him. Yeah.

17:15 Speaker 2 I, I think-

17:15 Speaker 1 Well, that's Europe. We're going to Europe

17:17 Speaker 2 ... it really doesn't make a difference?

17:18 Speaker 1 No. Believe you me, Italy sounded then like the moon. I didn't even, I couldn't even believe that there were Jews there. What would they need us for there? The only Italians I knew were the shoemakers. Anyway, I got off the phone, and I go... My father was taking care of the papers and ""Pa, the Rebbe's sending us to Italy." "If the Rebbe sends you, you forgot something to hate." Actually, maybe I'll get a rise out of my mother. I go into the kitchen, "Ma, the Rebbe's sending us to Italy." "If the Rebbe's sending you, go." This is what I grew up with. I didn't grow up with parents saying, "No, no, no. We don't want our daughters go so far away." No. If the Rebbe is saying it, if the Rebbe is doing it, that's what's going to be.

18:04 Speaker 2 You're saying that it was very natural to you and your, uh, and your parents to basically do whatever the Rebbe tells you to do.

18:13 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

18:14 Speaker 2 Um- Was that, was that a commonplace in, in Lubavitch in general, do you think?

18:23 Speaker 1 Listen-

18:23 Speaker 2 Or was that something d- was that something unique?

18:27 Speaker 1 I-- To say unique, that it was the only one, I don't wanna say that. To say that it was general, I can't say that either. As a matter of fact, when we were at the airport on our way to Italy, actually, we had to go to France first because my husband didn't have a visa for Italy. The Bochurim, obviously, they accompanied us to the airport, and there was one Bochur there. He says, "I don't understand. Who's, who, who's flying? Who's going?" Because there I was with my parents and my friends, and there he is, my husband, and we Gazoon. Because just recently before that, a couple were being sent. The husband came from another country, and they were being sent back to his native country, but she wasn't used to that. And at the airport, she and her hus- mother were holding onto each other and crying, and so at the point that the pilot came and said, "Either you come on or we're leaving without you."

19:21 Speaker 2 Hmm.

19:21 Speaker 1 Okay? So here, this Bochur says, "Well, here, no, no one's crying. We can't even tell who's leaving." Because to me, this wasn't some sad affair. This wasn't, "Oh, I'm going." This was, "Whoa, this was the beginning of my life." And my parents were the same way as Bas that. Also, in those days, and again, I am not judging anyone, okay?

19:43 Speaker 2 Uh, that wasn't the point of my question. The point of my, uh, the point of my question isn't to judge other people.

19:47 Speaker 1 No, no, no.

19:47 Speaker 2 My, my question is more wh- when did, when did it... Because with, with time, there were more and more people that saw Shlichus the way you did.

19:56 Speaker 1 Okay.

19:56 Speaker 2 Okay? But when did that start? Did that start, did that start generations before?

20:02 Speaker 1 No.

20:02 Speaker 2 Did that start... That's, so that's what I'm asking.

20:04 Speaker 1 No. What I'm telling you is that at that point, there were even parents when the Rebbe wanted to send couples, that the parents went in and begged the Rebbe not to send them-

20:12 Speaker 2 Right

20:13 Speaker 1 ... because they wanted their children to be near them. Again, I'm not being judgmental-

20:17 Speaker 2 Right

20:17 Speaker 1 ... because for whatever reason, it makes no difference. It took a while. And you know, the whole fr-

20:25 Speaker 2 Can, can, can I just cut you off one more time?

20:26 Speaker 1 Go ahead.

20:27 Speaker 2 What was your feeling when you saw-- That story that you just told me of the daughter and the mother crying in the airport.

20:32 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

20:33 Speaker 2 What was your feeling about that? You know, because there, you know, it's, it's not a question of judgment. To me, it's more a question, it's almost, it's almost like a sad story. Like what-

20:43 Speaker 1 Because she wasn't used to that idea. Her parents weren't used to that idea.

20:47 Speaker 2 Right.

20:47 Speaker 1 They had come from Russia just a short time before, probably.

20:50 Speaker 2 Right.

20:50 Speaker 1 She was educated in America. This was not the mindset of people of going out on Shlichus.

20:56 Speaker 2 But-

20:56 Speaker 1 As a matter of fact-

20:57 Speaker 2 No, but did you feel bad for her? That's what I'm asking.

21:01 Speaker 1 No. To feel bad for her or not to feel bad for her means also you, you start to come into judging or not judging.

21:07 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:07 Speaker 1 I, I, I, I can just say I felt very lucky to be where I was.

21:12 Speaker 2 I see.

21:13 Speaker 1 I was very lucky to have the, um, the ideals that I had, and they weren't born with me. They were born with my parents.

21:20 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:20 Speaker 1 It was born with what I was surrounded by.

21:23 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

21:24 Speaker 1 And that's what I'm trying to say. You know, the whole first year, a year that we were in Italy, every single Farbrengen, the Rebbe sent someone from my husband's family to say L'Chaim for him and someone from my family to say L'Chaim for me.

21:40 Speaker 2 Right.

21:40 Speaker 1 The Rebbe picked up the whole Inyan of Shlichus. He made it... He, he showed how, how important it was to him and how much it meant to him-

21:49 Speaker 2 Right

21:49 Speaker 1 ... and how important it was for us. And so little by little, that's what happened. It did become. But it, it took time, and it's interesting. Look, I told you fr- the first thing I said to you was, I was a very lucky person. I was surrounded from birth by smart, good people that loved me.

22:08 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:08 Speaker 1 And so this was the Chin- Uh, this was, this, this wasn't automatic on my part. This was Chinuch that I had gotten.

22:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

22:14 Speaker 1 And, and then what I say is that Chinuch is gi- Chinuch is given not through, you know, force, not through, uh, lectures. It's given through love and, and example-

22:26 Speaker 2 Hmm

22:26 Speaker 1 ... more than anything else.

22:27 Speaker 2 Hmm.

22:27 Speaker 1 That's it.

22:27 Speaker 2 Yeah.

22:27 Speaker 1 And I had that, and I had that.

22:30 Speaker 2 Yeah. Very nice. Um, there was something I wanted to ask you earlier while you were talking. You know, you were talking about being almost like, or at least your father with his beard, being almost like an alien i-i-in the United States. Um, you know, and that has changed for a number of reasons. You know, first of all, there are many more people from Jews wearing beards. There are many people-

22:54 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

22:54 Speaker 2 ... who aren't even Jewish who wear beards, and so on. A lot has changed in that regard. Um, but what that makes me think about also is when you're in a... When you, you were talking about that vis-a-vis the other people in America, i.e., not religious Jews or not Jewish at all and so on, just regular Americans. How did you see yourself as American Chassidim vis-a-vis Chassidim in general? Because at that point, the vast majority of Chassidim were either still in Russia or, like you said, later on coming out of Russia into Poland, not Poland, France, and, and, and, and Eretz Yisrael and so on. Like Lubavitch, the, the, the previous Rebbe by the time you were born was already in America.

23:35 Speaker 1 No.

23:35 Speaker 2 By the time you, by the time you remember-

23:36 Speaker 1 I was born in '38, and the Rebbe came in '40.

23:38 Speaker 2 Right. So by the time you, you were a child, and you remember he was already in America, but, but he was in a way almost like an exile in America, right? He had been banished from the Soviet Union, then been rescued out of Poland, right?

23:50 Speaker 1 Okay.

23:51 Speaker 2 Right? Uh, most of the Chassidim were not, were in Russia. Lubavitch was still f- only a few years removed from being a very Russian-based Chassidus, right? Did you feel like the, did you feel like America was the new home of Lubavitch, or did you feel that we're dislocated and we're still, like we're still... Does the question even make any sense to you?

24:13 Speaker 1 No, let me tell you something. We, we knew then already that we were different. We realized that itself, even among Chassidim.

24:22 Speaker 2 Right.

24:24 Speaker 1 You know, I had a seminary in Ame- in Italy, so I'm talking to girls that are seventeen, eighteen, nineteen years old and so on and so forth. And of course, you know, uh, twenty, thirty years ago, forty years ago, the, the women's, the women's liberationist movement was, you know, a big thing. And, uh, I always tell the girls, "The biggest women's liberationist in history is the Lubavitch Rebbe." No one put the woman on such a pedestal like the Rebbe did, okay? So first of all, the importance that the Rebbe gave us as women in everything that happened. But you're asking-

25:04 Speaker 2 I wanna, I wanna, I wanna get to that later.

25:05 Speaker 1 Okay. No, I'm just saying something. No, I'm not... I was just saying this is something else. You were talking to me. You're asking me about America, about how we felt. You know, it was early for the to come and stuff. 20 years later when I got married, and we went to Italy.

25:20 Speaker 2 Right.

25:20 Speaker 1 We got to Italy in '58, which was 14 short years after the Shoah.

25:27 Speaker 2 Right.

25:28 Speaker 1 The Jews in Italy, bechalal in Europe, were all survivors.

25:33 Speaker 2 Sure.

25:33 Speaker 1 Okay? When we got there, first of all, I turned 20 in Italy-

25:38 Speaker 2 So-

25:38 Speaker 1 ... so I was a young American girl.

25:40 Speaker 2 So you got there before the Sephardim started immigrating from Iran and, and-

25:44 Speaker 1 No, no, no. That's-

25:45 Speaker 2 They're sur- they're survivors of many things, you're saying.

25:48 Speaker 1 No, no. They were surviv- I'm talking about survivors of the Shoah.

25:52 Speaker 2 Right. Okay.

25:52 Speaker 1 I'm talking about the Ashkenazi Yidden.

25:53 Speaker 2 Ashkenazi Yidden.

25:54 Speaker 1 My husband was the rebbe of the Ashkenazi shul, and all the people of our congregation.

25:58 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

25:59 Speaker 1 They couldn't figure us out.

26:01 Speaker 2 Right.

26:01 Speaker 1 Mainly me. My husband a, a little bit later because he was, you know, Chassidish guy, dressed like so and so. But an American woman and a, and a rebbetzin trying to make a school. A rebbetzin doesn't make a school. A rebbetzin makes kegel. A rebbetzin makes cholent. That, that was the way they looked at it. And they couldn't understand. They just couldn't understand our whole lifestyle, the whole thing, 'cause... And they were convinced, and this was the point. They were convinced that you could not live Yiddishkeit the way they lived it in the shtetl. And I wanted to show them that they can live that, the same Yiddishkeit of the shtetl, they can live in now in, in, in modern-day Europe. Okay? As a matter of fact, when our son was three years old, he was our second child, and we made his upsherenish, we did what you don't do in Lubavitch. We left him payos.

26:59 Speaker 2 Mm.

27:01 Speaker 1 I purposely wants him to have those payos 'cause I wanted them to be able to look and see he was a gorgeous, blonde, beautiful, adel kid they loved looking at. I wanted them to see him with payos. They all had had payos in the shtetl, but now you can't have payos. It's a different world. Okay? This is what I was facing in Italy.

27:23 Speaker 2 But this is already when you're a grow-

27:25 Speaker 1 Hold on a second

27:25 Speaker 2 ... you're already grown and gone to school.

27:26 Speaker 1 I'm facing the same thing now at 20 which you're asking me about when I was five.

27:31 Speaker 2 Right.

27:32 Speaker 1 The only thing is at five I was facing it in America.

27:35 Speaker 2 Right.

27:35 Speaker 1 And at 20 I was facing it in Europe.

27:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, but you're also facing it with 15 years in the interim where, where the-

27:42 Speaker 1 Where? What?

27:43 Speaker 2 First of all, you had grown up, you had learned something in school. Um, the Frierdiker Rebbe had passed away. The Rebbe took over, started talking about shlichus. There was a whole mindset of going out to the world.

27:53 Speaker 1 It wasn't as quick as all that.

27:56 Speaker 2 That's what I'm asking.

27:56 Speaker 1 It wasn't as quick.

27:56 Speaker 2 So that's what I'm asking.

27:57 Speaker 1 No.

27:57 Speaker 2 What, what-

27:58 Speaker 1 It wasn't as quick as all that. It, it took its steps. It took its steps.

28:01 Speaker 2 Right.

28:01 Speaker 1 It took time for that. You know-

28:03 Speaker 2 So when, so when you were five years old or seven years old or nine years old, and you're growing up in Pittsburgh, and, and the Frierdiker Rebbe is just a few years in America, um, the, the... And he's there surrounded only by a few of his secretaries, and some of them didn't even make it out of the war. Um, it's almost like a remnant of Lubavitch at that point, the Rebbe and a, and a few others. You didn't feel... Did... My question is, my que- my question is, did you feel like America was the new home of Lubavitch, and this, there's something like this... Or, or are we in exile from a place that we used to be?

28:39 Speaker 1 Listen, I wasn't as analytical as you think I was. Okay? I didn't analyze what's happening. I lived what was happening. I lived knowing that the most important person, person, right, in my life is the Rebbe.

28:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

28:55 Speaker 1 And that was taken for granted. No one forced me to do that. It was taken for granted. I lived knowing that, for instance, when we lived in Pittsburgh, I went to public school. All the Jewish kids weren't Shomer Shabbos.

29:08 Speaker 2 Right.

29:09 Speaker 1 And, uh, it's, but I knew that I was different. I knew that I was different, but I took it for granted that I was different. Again, I was not analytical about it.

29:17 Speaker 2 Did you feel American? Let's put it that way. Did you feel American?

29:20 Speaker 1 Do you think I knew what... I was, I was American.

29:22 Speaker 2 Right.

29:22 Speaker 1 I didn't have to feel American-

29:23 Speaker 2 Right

29:23 Speaker 1 ... 'cause I didn't know what America was. At five years old, did I know what America is? Nothing. I was there. I lived it. It was my home.

29:29 Speaker 2 So did, did you feel at home in America, is the question.

29:31 Speaker 1 I felt very much... I-

29:33 Speaker 2 Right

29:33 Speaker 1 ... do you know something?

29:34 Speaker 2 Right.

29:34 Speaker 1 Wherever I am, I feel at home. Okay? Listen, I was-- I love Italy. You wouldn't believe it. I love Italy.

29:42 Speaker 2 No, I believe, I believe it.

29:43 Speaker 1 Okay. I love it. So what are you telling me? Italy is my... Well, yeah, it, it became a home after I got married, but I love it. You know what?

29:50 Speaker 2 No, I mean-

29:50 Speaker 1 We, we-

29:51 Speaker 2 ... if, if you grew, if you grew up with parents who felt that America... You know, when you were growing up, America was still considered the treif Medina. It was changing 'cause the war, the war changed circumstances-

30:02 Speaker 1 Okay

30:02 Speaker 2 ... and there was no choice anymore, right? They had to live in America. But a, a few years earlier, very few people moved to America because it was, it was a place you couldn't be a-

30:11 Speaker 1 A treif medina

30:11 Speaker 2 ... frum Yid.

30:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

30:12 Speaker 2 That's it.

30:12 Speaker 1 Okay.

30:12 Speaker 2 A treif land, right? Did you... If, if you had felt that way from your parents, if your parents spoke that way, you probably would feel very uncomfortable in America.

30:20 Speaker 1 They didn't speak that way.

30:21 Speaker 2 So that's what I'm asking.

30:22 Speaker 1 My parents didn't speak that way.

30:24 Speaker 2 That's what I'm-

30:25 Speaker 1 I-- To me, I had no idea what you're talking about because I was nine years old. What nine-year-old know- knows the political situation of a country that they're living in?

30:33 Speaker 2 No, not the political situation, but more, but more, but more our entire... Like, we, we don't-

30:38 Speaker 1 Again-

30:38 Speaker 2 ... we don't belong here.

30:40 Speaker 1 No.

30:40 Speaker 2 There's no future here for us.

30:41 Speaker 1 There was never... The only-- I told you, I had that feeling about the beard.

30:44 Speaker 2 Right.

30:44 Speaker 1 I didn't think that the beard belonged there 'cause it was-

30:46 Speaker 2 Uh-huh

30:46 Speaker 1 ... it, it was being made fun of to me.

30:48 Speaker 2 So, so that's, so that's my question. Did you feel that, that Lubavitch in America would look different than Lubavitch you heard about, about your zeide and your-

30:56 Speaker 1 No

30:56 Speaker 2 ... other zeide?

30:56 Speaker 1 No, I didn't hear about my zeide, and I didn't hear about Lubavitch, and nobody talked to me about what Lubavitch was before. I was living the day that I was living, and as I told you-

31:05 Speaker 2 Your parents didn't talk about Lubavitch at all?

31:08 Speaker 1 W- they were supposed to talk to a five-year-old kid and tell them about Lubavitch in Russia?

31:11 Speaker 2 No, 10, 10-year-old. I-

31:12 Speaker 1 Even a 10-year-old. How m- how, how, how do you talk to your 10-year-old? Let me hear. You talk analytically about his life, about his outlook on- ... on politics?

31:22 Speaker 2 I think, uh-

31:23 Speaker 1 Uh, no. Just say it straight out. No.

31:26 Speaker 2 I mean-

31:27 Speaker 1 Unless, unless you discuss-

31:28 Speaker 2 No, but, no, but-

31:29 Speaker 1 ... these things in that family-

31:30 Speaker 2 No, but I think you-

31:30 Speaker 1 ... and the children hear it

31:31 Speaker 2 ... that's what I mean. I-

31:32 Speaker 1 Okay

31:32 Speaker 2 ... I feel like I f- I feel like my, my child knows if... I have a 10-year-old daughter. I have a feeling that she would know if I, uh, liked where I lived, if I felt that there were many problems where I lived, if I felt that there was a lot of hardship of raising her where I lived, if I felt that where I really belonged was where I grew up. In my case, I grew up in Hong Kong, so I, I never thought that I would raise her in Hong Kong. But I'm saying I- if I spoke to her, if she, she-- I think at 10 years old you would get the sense, but if you didn't, you didn't.

32:04 Speaker 1 No. No, what I'm saying is my parents transmitted a very tranquil way of life.

32:10 Speaker 2 Interesting.

32:10 Speaker 1 They were very sure of their way of life.

32:13 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:13 Speaker 1 They had no doubts.

32:15 Speaker 2 Mm.

32:15 Speaker 1 Regardless if they were in Palestine, if they were in New Jersey, Chicago, or Pittsburgh, they knew exactly what their way of life was, and that's the way they lived it. And anything that was contradictory to it, to them it wasn't going to change anything, and that's how we grew up. I remember in Pittsburgh when I was growing up, and, uh, my public school friends, Jewish girls even, you know, uh, they would talk about going out on dates with boys, things like that. And, and I had the question. I go, "Why can't I?" "Oh, you know, my parents, they spoke, they explained," and so on. So I knew, I knew that I was different.

32:51 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

32:51 Speaker 1 That I knew. I knew that I was being brought up differently, but I was being brought up with so much love and understanding that I had no problem with it. I had no problem with it. And my parents sent me, I was 12 years old when they sent me to New York. Why? Because if I had, had I stayed in Pittsburgh, I had-- I would've had to go to a public high school. They weren't going to send me to a public high school, a co-ed, uh, with, with everything that was open there and that. I was particularly sent to a Bais Yaakov, to a school that was going to reflect the ideals that my parents wanted me to have. So again, I knew that I was different than the usual American girl, that I wasn't living the American life in that sense.

33:38 Speaker 2 Uh-

33:38 Speaker 1 But to me, I was American.

33:40 Speaker 2 Right.

33:40 Speaker 1 And being Shomer Shabbos had no-- it was no, um, contradiction to being American.

33:45 Speaker 2 Right.

33:46 Speaker 1 I was an American Shomer Shabbos.

33:47 Speaker 2 Right. So I, I think, I think you answered the question in, uh, by, by saying that you didn't get a sense from your parents that they were in exile-

33:55 Speaker 1 Oh, never

33:55 Speaker 2 ... or that they were dislocated. Right. So that, that, that, that was my question. Like-

33:58 Speaker 1 Never

33:58 Speaker 2 ... I, I, yeah, n- I, I understand that they didn't sit down with you and have a conversation about identity at the-

34:04 Speaker 1 Even, even when they-

34:04 Speaker 2 ... you were 10 years old.

34:05 Speaker 1 I think I-

34:05 Speaker 2 But you would get a sense from them if they felt, if they felt like they were, you know, in a, in a faraway land against their will, you probably would've got that sense, and you're saying that you didn't get that sense, that your-

34:16 Speaker 1 At all

34:16 Speaker 2 ... parents, even though they were in a very different country than they had grown up, and your father was in his own town, essentially, as a Frummie Yid. There was no other Frum community according to what you're saying.

34:28 Speaker 1 No.

34:28 Speaker 2 Or people without beards.

34:29 Speaker 1 Yeah.

34:29 Speaker 2 No Hasid- no Hasidish community or Hasidic community for the most part in Pittsburgh. He certainly wasn't in Brooklyn.

34:35 Speaker 1 No.

34:36 Speaker 2 Um, nevertheless, he was very much at peace with it.

34:41 Speaker 1 Very much at peace.

34:42 Speaker 2 Okay.

34:42 Speaker 1 My parents were very, very sure of themselves. They were very confident. They had no doubts about the way they were bringing us up, and they had no doubts about Yiddishkeit.

34:54 Speaker 2 What-- Why did they end up in America when so, before so many Hasidim?

34:58 Speaker 1 Because I, it's... I'm not, I'm not 100% sure, but I'm almost sure that the Frizer Rebbe told them to go from Eretz Israel to America, and they came to America in the 1920s.

35:11 Speaker 2 Hmm.

35:11 Speaker 1 Uh, before 1920 because I was born... Well, no, you're right. They ca- uh, they came, let's say, at the end of the 1920s because my si- my older sister, who was born in New Jersey, was eight years older than me, so she was born in 1930. I was born in '38. In 19-- So they were there obviously before that. So they came in '28, '29. They came to America. So they came, you know, pretty early. They were-

35:36 Speaker 2 And so, so your father was here a good 20 years before the Frizer Rebbe-- No, 10 years.

35:43 Speaker 1 No, 10.

35:43 Speaker 2 Uh, 10, 10 years before the-

35:44 Speaker 1 10, 12 years, yeah

35:45 Speaker 2 ... before the Frizer Rebbe joined him.

35:46 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:47 Speaker 2 Did he ever talk about that time? Was there-

35:49 Speaker 1 Did he talk about the Rebbe?

35:50 Speaker 2 No, no, about the 10 years before.

35:54 Speaker 1 Not, not... I don't remember anything. I don't remember.

35:56 Speaker 2 He, he, he didn't speak of it as like a whole-

35:58 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no

35:58 Speaker 2 ... a whole-

35:59 Speaker 1 To, to them it was, this was normal life.

36:02 Speaker 2 Right. It-

36:02 Speaker 1 This was life. They were-

36:03 Speaker 2 They could've been sent to Denmark, and they were sent to America instead almost. Uh-

36:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to remember because if I'm not mistaken, the Rebbe had come... When, when was the Beaker Chicago? What year was that approximately?

36:12 Speaker 2 It, it was earlier, yeah. I don't remember the year.

36:14 Speaker 1 Okay. So, so the Rebbe had been in Beaker Chicago, Amer- and then went back to, as you said, to Europe.

36:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

36:19 Speaker 1 And then when he came back again, again, he came to Chicago when I was about two years old.

36:25 Speaker 2 Right.

36:26 Speaker 1 And, um, when the Rebbe came to Chicago, so if I was three years old, it was like '42, '41 or '42. The Rebbe came 1940, he came to America, and my mother cooked for the Rebbe. My father served the Rebbe. On Sunday, my father was to take, was to take my brother Zushi, who was three years older than me, and me, I was three I think at the time, so I was three and six. Sunday we were supposed to go in on Yechidus to the Rebbe, and that Shabbos, the Rebbe's nishtane sarah, the Rebbe's wife, mother was niftar. So the Rebbe went there, and so, uh, we didn't go in on Yechidus. So I didn't see the Frizer Rebbe until my brother Zalman was getting married, and this was 10 years later.

37:04 Speaker 2 Hmm.

37:05 Speaker 1 And we went in, and then I, that's when I saw the Frizer Rebbe.

37:08 Speaker 2 And that was when? That was must have-

37:09 Speaker 1 1940. Iz mit a, a month and a half before the hishtalmut.

37:14 Speaker 2 Wow. And he was still taking in Yechidus?

37:16 Speaker 1 Say it again.

37:16 Speaker 2 He was still taking in visitors for Yechidus?

37:18 Speaker 1 Not only. My brother Zalman was a chassan. My sister Kenny was a kallah. My brother Zalman was getting married in Kislev. My father wanted my sister to get married in Adar, and the Rebbe said, "No, she should get married in Kislev." Okay. So this, today, Sunday, tonight, my brother's getting married n- in New York. Next week, Sunday, my sister's getting married in Pittsburgh. Six weeks later was Yud Shvat.

37:43 Speaker 2 Wow. Wow.

37:46 Speaker 1 So then we understood why the Rebbe didn't let him wait till Adar, but made him make the chassanah in Kislev.

37:54 Speaker 2 What do you remember from that yechidus with the Friediker Rebbe?

37:57 Speaker 1 Oh. I remember my father, the Rebbe was sitting there, my father was standing, and the Rebbe spoke, and my father repeated word for word what the Rebbe said because his Lashon wasn't so clear. Don't ask me what the Rebbe said, and don't ask me what my father-

38:11 Speaker 2 Wait, wait. Your father was repeating it to who? To everyone in the room?

38:14 Speaker 1 He was repeating to the Rebbe to show that he understood what he said.

38:17 Speaker 2 I see.

38:18 Speaker 1 He was... He... The Reb- my father was looking at the Rebbe, the Rebbe was looking at my father. We were standing in back of him like this. My sister was standing on the side. She was a kallah. She was getting married next week. My sister was a fabrenter chassidishe. She was, uh, adored the Rebbe. And, um, okay, so the Rebbe spoke, my father, and then the Rebbe called my sister over, spoke to her. I didn't understand a word, I think, but when we went out of yechidus, my sister was, like, on cloud nine because she und- the Rebbe spoke to her, and she understood every word he said without my father repeating it to her.

38:51 Speaker 2 Hmm.

38:52 Speaker 1 She felt so proud of herself. And in those days-

38:55 Speaker 2 Was this the first time she was meeting the Friediker Rebbe?

38:57 Speaker 1 No. She knew the Friediker Rebbe because she was in New-- She was in New York in Bais Yaakov.

39:01 Speaker 2 Ah.

39:01 Speaker 1 And she would go to fabren... Different. You know, she was a fabrenter chassidishe of the Rebbe's.

39:05 Speaker 2 Okay.

39:06 Speaker 1 Anyway, um, the, the, in those days, the girls were not putting on sheitels like they do now.

39:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

39:15 Speaker 1 The mothers weren't covering their hair the way they do now.

39:18 Speaker 2 By, by girls, you mean Lubavitch girls?

39:19 Speaker 1 I'm talking about Lubavitch. I-I'm talking about Frum girls.

39:22 Speaker 2 Frum Lubavitch girls.

39:23 Speaker 1 Lubavitch and not.

39:25 Speaker 2 Right.

39:25 Speaker 1 You know, I-

39:26 Speaker 2 But including Lubavitch girls

39:27 Speaker 1 All the, all the Frum girls that there were.

39:28 Speaker 2 But, but including Lubavitch girls.

39:30 Speaker 1 Including Lubavitch girls. And the Rebbe s-spoke about that and spoke she shouldn't listen to the tza- She had already ordered her sheitel.

39:37 Speaker 2 Hmm.

39:37 Speaker 1 She had already ordered it. But the Rebbe spoke to her about the importance of covering your hair, and she was, she was just very-- She was so proud that the Rebbe called her over, spoke to her, and she understood by herself. I, I, I, I can't forget that. I can't forget that.

39:54 Speaker 2 I'm not sure if you're comfortable talking about it this way, but to, to, to someone like me who's heard a lot about th-the, the Rebbe and the way, the way he was in yechidus, and we also have more pictures and videos of him, what, what was different to you about the Friediker Rebbe vis-à-vis the Rebbe? W-how would you describe the difference? I'm sure there were-- Or how-

40:16 Speaker 1 Between what? Between the Rebbe and?

40:18 Speaker 2 The Friediker Rebbe.

40:19 Speaker 1 The Friediker Rebbe and the Rebbe?

40:20 Speaker 2 Yes.

40:20 Speaker 1 God, no. I couldn't, I couldn't begin to describe it. I don't... I, I couldn't... I have no idea what it means.

40:26 Speaker 2 Do you see, do you see there being a difference? Was there a difference in, in, in, in, in the-

40:30 Speaker 1 Let me tell you

40:30 Speaker 2 ... in, in how it went and how it felt?

40:32 Speaker 1 Let me tell you something. The first time I went on yechidus to the Rebbe was... I, he, I told you, he took on the Nasius Yud Shvat, a year after the Rebbe, the Friediker Rebbe was gone. And that Rosh Chodesh Adar, my brother Leibel got married, and the Rebbe was Mesader Kidushin.

40:48 Speaker 2 Okay.

40:49 Speaker 1 This was the first chassanah. After that, my husband and... My husband. My mother and I went in on yechidus to the Rebbe.

40:57 Speaker 2 Separately from your family?

40:58 Speaker 1 No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. Just the two of us.

41:00 Speaker 2 Not with your father this time?

41:01 Speaker 1 Nope. My father probably had gone back to Pittsburgh. I don't know. My mother was going in on yechidus, and she took me with her.

41:06 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

41:07 Speaker 1 I was 12 years old. The Rebbe started to speak to me. I didn't answer a word. I just stood there and looked at him.

41:17 Speaker 2 Hmm.

41:17 Speaker 1 And he spoke. He asked me something else. I didn't say a word. He turns to my mother. He says, "Ze, ze farsteit ken Yiddish?" She doesn't understand Yiddish? My mother started to laugh. My parents only spoke Yiddish to us. Okay. He spoke to my mother. My mother asked him a question. I don't even remember what the question was. It was something about my brother. And the Rebbe told her what he should do. My mother's answer to the Rebbe, these were her explicit words. "Ejv zajn Melech zogt azoy, azoy vet o zayn." If his king says so, that's the way he will do it. And I remember looking and saying, "What? She called the Rebbe Melech to his face?" He didn't blink an eye. He didn't even react. It was like the most natural thing in the world. And when I tell my girls in seminary this story, I say, "Girls, he became my Melech in that moment."

42:15 Speaker 2 Where did your mother come from? Where, like, she came from a Lubavitch family?

42:19 Speaker 1 Did you ever hear of Chache Fagan?

42:20 Speaker 2 Sure.

42:21 Speaker 1 He was her brother-in-law. He was married to her sister. Did you ever hear of, uh, Aharon Leizer Teitel-- Aharon Leiz-- I'm sorry, Chache Fagan. Aharon Leizer Teitel. Did you ever hear Aharon Leizer Teitel?

42:31 Speaker 2 He lived in Montreal later. Was that him?

42:33 Speaker 1 Well, he's the father of the Teitels there, yeah.

42:36 Speaker 2 Okay.

42:36 Speaker 1 Aharon Leizer Teitel.

42:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, I've heard of him.

42:37 Speaker 1 It was her brother. My mother is a Teitel.

42:39 Speaker 2 Is a Teitel, okay.

42:40 Speaker 1 Okay.

42:40 Speaker 2 So she comes from a Lubavitch family.

42:42 Speaker 1 More Lubavitch than that, you can't get.

42:44 Speaker 2 Right. No, but I'm, I'm try- I, I'm not trying to-

42:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

42:46 Speaker 2 ... to question her yichez, uh, God forbid.

42:49 Speaker 1 No.

42:49 Speaker 2 What I'm, what I'm asking is-

42:50 Speaker 1 How did she, what-

42:51 Speaker 2 What I'm asking is, w-like, this kind of sprach, was it normal?

42:55 Speaker 1 No. No.

42:55 Speaker 2 That's, that's, that's my question.

42:57 Speaker 1 Absolutely not.

42:57 Speaker 2 So, so that's my question. Where did it come-

42:59 Speaker 1 Absolutely not.

43:00 Speaker 2 Where, where did it come from?

43:00 Speaker 1 Because that's what my mother... I told you, smart and good. She was a fabrenter chassidishe. Whatever the Rebbe would say was Kodesh Kodashim.

43:10 Speaker 2 That came from her parents, do you think?

43:11 Speaker 1 I ha- I have no idea.

43:12 Speaker 2 You don't know.

43:13 Speaker 1 And I couldn't care less.

43:15 Speaker 2 Fair enough. Fair enough. So but y- 'cause, 'cause there, there does seem to be, I think even you alluded to it earlier, that With time, shluchas became more of a norm-

43:28 Speaker 1 For sure

43:28 Speaker 2 ... and people, people, um, accepted almost the Rebbe's vision more, like if the idea of shluchas took, took hold, and the Rebbe's vision took hold, and people went along with it mo- uh, more, I would say. Um, it does seem like there was a change between, between how, how Chassidim listened or, or, or, or followed the Friediker Rebbe to how they followed the Rebbe at the beginning to how they followed later on. You're, you're nodding your head no.

43:55 Speaker 1 Listen.

43:57 Speaker 2 I'm trying to, I'm try-- There was no change in your mind?

43:59 Speaker 1 Listen, listen, listen. A few months after his hilchos of the Friediker Rebbe, they were talking, the Chassidim were talking, you know, who to, who to make the next Rebbe.

44:09 Speaker 2 Right.

44:09 Speaker 1 Should it be the Rashab? Should it be the Rebbe? You know, they were talking. My father, who came to Lubavitch before his bar mitzvah by the Rebbe Rashab and lived through the whole nasius of the Friediker Rebbe, he was one of the first Chassidim to give himself over to the Rebbe. My sister, Kenny, who was married, she was just married a few months, and she was a fabrenter Chassidis of the Frierdiker Rebbe. This I remember also explicitly, her crying and saying, "Wie ken men azoy shnell fargessen?" How do you forget so quickly? Forget now you're gonna make a new... And I-

44:42 Speaker 2 She was crying to your father?

44:43 Speaker 1 Yes.

44:44 Speaker 2 Mm.

44:44 Speaker 1 'Cause he was talking about this, that was, that they should be-

44:47 Speaker 2 Right

44:48 Speaker 1 ... everyone should also give over to the Rebbe.

44:50 Speaker 2 Right.

44:50 Speaker 1 How can you forget so quickly?

44:52 Speaker 2 Right.

44:53 Speaker 1 And my father explained to her, "It's not an inyan of forgetting." He explained to her that Rebbe is an inyan of hemshich. It's from... And when he would talk about the Rebbe Rashab, he would say, "When the Rebbe Rashab would say a maamer, the Rebbe would stand opposite him and repeat it." And I would say, "Pa, which Rebbe?" "Rebbe." He never said the Rebbe Rashab. He never said the Friediker Rebbe. He never said the Rebbe. He's always like, "Rebbe." It's one hemshich. That is what he explained to her and gave over to her. Okay? What it means... If, if, if you want, let me, I can go on with this another just a little if you want.

45:29 Speaker 2 No, sure.

45:30 Speaker 1 Okay. All right. She accepted it, but you know, her feelings were what they were. Okay. I told you that, uh, uh, three weeks after the Rebbe took on the Nasius, he was mesader kiddushin by my brother's wedding. We were all in New York. And my sister went in on yechidus. And of course, she was captivated by the Rebbe to a certain... Okay. This is the scene I'm going to describe to you. My sister-in-law, my brother Zalman's wife, was a Kazanovsky, and they lived in Vincent Hurst. We were in Vincent Hurst in their house. My sister, Kenny, is describing to my brother, Zalman, her yechidus with the Rebbe, and she says... First of all, the Rebbe had told her to sit down, but she knew not to sit down. And it was while she was-- she felt very good. The Rebbe was very... Well, I have to tell you what the Rebbe was. And then she says, she felt that the yechidus was over, but she didn't wanna go out. So the Rebbe spoke another little bit, maybe another minute. I'll say a lot, a minute and a half.

46:29 Speaker 2 This was after she was married already?

46:31 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, by the Friediker Rebbe. It was by the Rebbe's... By the Rebbe.

46:34 Speaker 2 So she was with her husband?

46:35 Speaker 1 No, she was alone.

46:36 Speaker 2 Okay.

46:36 Speaker 1 She was alone by the Rebbe. And, uh, she had her yechidus. And again, like I say, she was very captivated by the Rebbe, and she felt that the yechidus was over, but she didn't wanna leave, so the Rebbe spoke another little bit. My brother, Zalman: "What? The yechidus was over, and you didn't go out?" So she, she has a chet. She, she had done something so terrible, so she started to cry. I'm telling, I was saying that they didn't pay attention to me. My sister-in-law... All right, so my brother is yelling at my sister, "What? You didn't go out?" My sister's crying. My sister-in-law is yelling at my brother, "Leave her alone. It's none of your business. Why are you telling her?" And my sister's crying. My brother is yelling at her why she stayed longer. My sister-in-law is yelling at my brother he should stop yelling. And I'm looking and saying, "All of this because she overstayed her yechidus a minute, a minute and a half." Okay? Okay? These are the things I grew up with. These are the things that stayed with me always and always and always.

47:44 Speaker 2 All right. But I'm asking, I'm... But surely you spoke to other people, and it's how other people were reacting.

47:49 Speaker 1 Nobody-

47:49 Speaker 2 Did, did you-

47:50 Speaker 1 In, in those days, in the day when I was in Bais Yaakov-

47:52 Speaker 2 There were other Lubavitcher girls, other Lubavitcher-

47:55 Speaker 1 All right. Again, they-- It, it, it wasn't very unusual. It wasn't very usual for, for, for girls to be so, um... But certainly not the other Chassidishe kreizen. They, the women v'chlal weren't very much involved. It was usually just the Rebbes with the men and so on and so forth. In fact, they-- That was one of the things that the girls and even the Toras Dos boys who were all friends of my brothers, my sisters, uh, of my friends' brothers and stuff like that, and I'd say, "Well, what are you making such a fuss about?" They said, "Well, we never saw girls so koch in a Rebbe." They, they couldn't understand that I was so, uh, enamored and, and, and so, you know, talking about the Rebbe and the Rebbe and the Rebbe and the Rebbe and the Rebbe and the Rebbe. But to me, it was so natural. It was just so natural. And again, it took a while. It took a while. You know, but-

48:44 Speaker 2 What took a, what took a while?

48:46 Speaker 1 What you were asking about how did it feel, how did it become, how, how did it grow? You know what? Um-

48:53 Speaker 2 No, because you, you, you said a beautiful story a few minutes ago about your, your sister asking your father, um-

49:01 Speaker 1 How can you forget so-

49:02 Speaker 2 How, how can you forget so quickly? How can you switch so quickly? So even your sister, who had grown up in the same home as you did, and it seems loved your father as well and, and, uh, you know, respected your father, she, she didn't understand exactly how he was doing what he was doing.

49:19 Speaker 1 Okay.

49:19 Speaker 2 So there must have been other people who felt that way. So that's what, that's what I'm asking.

49:23 Speaker 1 I, I'm gonna tell you something else.

49:25 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:25 Speaker 1 But it's-

49:26 Speaker 2 Okay.

49:27 Speaker 1 Before Gimmel Tammuz, before Gimmel Tammuz, for about two years, the Rebbe wasn't feeling so good. And we had a, a fax machine, so we could get, get information immediately, right? And one day I walk into school, and one of my gaoniyushe teachers, she says, "You don't look so good today." And I said, "Well, the news from New York isn't so great." She says, "Well, you know, you really do have to prepare yourself." I said, "Oh, really?" I said, "If I were to tell you that tomorrow the oxygen supply of the world is going to be turned off, prepare yourself, what would you do?" Because to me, the Rebbe was oxygen, okay? Okay. Gimmel Tammuz happened, and I couldn't understand how it was possible. I couldn't believe that I would be able to survive in, in such a thing. And on the other hand, I knew I was one of the older shluchas. I have to have-- Did you have to be able to be an example for the youth, and so on and so forth. Young Chassidishe bochurim will be passing by. "Where are you..." "Oh, we're going to new-- We're going to the Rebbe for Tisha." They're going to the Rebbe for Tisha. Young Chassidishe girls, uh, one girl says to me, "Ach, I had such a problem, so I asked the Rebbe, and the Rebbe said... The Rebbe said..." My friend, my husband and I discussed this a lot, and we came to this conclusion that the young Chassidishe bochurim of today, and

51:03 Speaker 1 it's already almost 30 years since that horrible day, and the young Chassidishe girls of today are way ahead of us. Whenever I'm asked to speak to them, they're always comes up and say, "You saw the Rebbe. Well, we didn't see the Rebbe." I said, "I saw the Rebbe. You had to be an idiot to see the Rebbe and not believe in him, to see the Rebbe and not to be enamored of him." I said, "What are you doing here? What's going on here in Crown Heights? Can you please tell me?" You go, y-you c- go, go to just to Rubashkin to see what's going on there. Just go to the 770. What are all these kids doing here? Why? Why are they living the way they are? The bochurim going around with the tzitztzit on the outside. Every time I see a bochur with tzitztzit, I, I go crazy. I love it. I love it. The girls, 500, 700, I don't know how many from here at Yeshivat came to spend Tisha with the Rebbe. They're spending Tisha with the Rebbe. Can you please explain that to me? Is there any logical thing? The only thing I tell my girls, "Girls, he's your best friend. The Rebbe is a ro'eh nema'on. You don't see him, but he sees you."

52:21 Speaker 3 Yeah, but you would-- I mean, let, let's be honest. You wouldn't wanna be-- You wouldn't exchange when you grew up for when people are growing up today, would you?

52:31 Speaker 1 It's not that. It's m- I wouldn't exchange my parents for anybody. That's something else.

52:36 Speaker 3 Yeah, but I, I, well, you can't, you can't g- Like, it's obviously an hypothetical question, but if you were able to grow up... I mean, there, there's some, there's something... You, you wouldn't wanna give up the moments that you just described of the Yechidas with the Previous Rebbe and then with the Rebbe and then going out shlichas and whatever else happened. You wouldn't wanna give that up for to dance on 770 and Crown Heights and-

52:59 Speaker 1 Obviously not.

53:00 Speaker 3 Okay. So-

53:01 Speaker 1 Obviously. No, but that was my life. I understand. That, that was the life that I lived, and that was the life I lived.

53:06 Speaker 3 But, but my pro-

53:07 Speaker 1 But, but my-

53:07 Speaker 3 My problem is a lot of people today would wanna give up what they have today for that, even though this is their life.

53:12 Speaker 1 They don't know.

53:13 Speaker 3 All right.

53:13 Speaker 1 They don't, they don't know. They don't know what they want. Th-they think they do. They don't know what to do. But why are they living that way then? Why are they living-

53:20 Speaker 3 I said-

53:20 Speaker 1 Could you please explain to me why some of them, "Oh, I wish I was living then," but they were not. So what do you have now if you're wishing you lived then?

53:28 Speaker 3 Well, I mean-

53:28 Speaker 1 What do you have? What?

53:29 Speaker 3 Well, it doesn't mean that you have to give, uh, give everything up.

53:31 Speaker 1 No.

53:31 Speaker 3 But, but people would still rather-

53:33 Speaker 1 Can you please, can you please explain the, the, the logic to it? What I wanna say is that I, knowing what it was like before and seeing the way they live today, I admire them. I admire them.

53:49 Speaker 3 Say that.

53:50 Speaker 1 It, it, it, it, how? Where-- What are they holding onto? What are they holding onto? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's more beautiful than words. It's not... It's, it's indescribable.

54:02 Speaker 3 I mean, look, I, I, I see where you're coming from. I understand where you're... I mean, I, I don't know if I understand it. I see where you're coming from. It's not something I haven't heard before. Um, but my c- you know, my concern is they're holding on to the memories of other people. And you asked a question, I'm answering the question. I feel that they're holding on to the memories of other people.

54:24 Speaker 1 Who's, who's holding on to which memories?

54:26 Speaker 3 The people that you described dancing on 770 and flying-

54:30 Speaker 1 No, no

54:30 Speaker 3 ... into the flying across the world tradition.

54:31 Speaker 1 So whose memories are they holding on to?

54:33 Speaker 3 Their parents, their grandparents, their mashpiyim's parents, mashmia's grandparents. It's, it's, it's many years, uh, a-ago from, from the moments that you've just described.

54:43 Speaker 1 You know what? If, if, if, if you wanna do that, st-st-stop, don't stop with the grandparents. Go back to Avraham Avinu.

54:50 Speaker 3 Fair. Fair.

54:51 Speaker 1 Of course.

54:52 Speaker 3 Fair.

54:52 Speaker 1 Of course we live, we live with-

54:55 Speaker 3 But you, but you, but-

54:55 Speaker 1 It's all the basis of all. That's the basis of what we're living.

54:59 Speaker 3 No, no, I, I, I accept. I accept that we, we, we live, we live based on the traditions that are passed down to us, a hundred percent.

55:07 Speaker 1 Okay.

55:07 Speaker 3 But, but, um, it does feel though that there's a difference between... Like when you were growing up, there was the Yiddish guy, the kashrus, let's say. Why you keep kosher? Because we don't have a Rebbe.

56:11 Speaker 1 Fair. Okay.

56:11 Speaker 3 Because you don't have-- You'd have-- If they would have the figure of the Rebbe in front of them-

56:15 Speaker 1 It would be the same thing. The reason that that's... But I say something else.

56:19 Speaker 3 Okay.

56:20 Speaker 1 That we, w-with the figure of the Rebbe in front of us, you didn't need much to believe. But today, without having the physical figure of the Rebbe in front of them, and they believe, it shows how much more, how, how more intense their lives are. And it shows even more the effect that the Rebbe has on us. That he had such an effect on us before when he was sitting there, and he was going like this with his hands and everything else, that's one thing. But today, the way these kids live, to them, the Rebbe is living. To them, the Rebbe is alive. It's, it's, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

56:59 Speaker 3 Yeah. No, look, I, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or-

57:03 Speaker 1 Yeah

57:03 Speaker 3 ... or, or... No, no, no, no, but I'm not trying to have, like, a, that kind of, uh... I'm not looking to have a debate. Um, and n-nor do I think I'm worthy to have a debate with you right now. But, um, I just think that, I think that, you know, to, to, to, to say that because people are more excited today or there's more people being excited today, therefore it's better or therefore they're, they're-

57:29 Speaker 1 I didn't say it's better.

57:30 Speaker 3 No, I think, I think the words you said were that they're far-- they're much further ahead. Th- You know, I, I have... Personally, that's something that's been hard for me to, to, um, to accept because it's hard to s-square being ahead the generation before you when at the same time you're being told that you're missing something integral that the generation before you had. You see, I... You're, you're either missing something or you have something or they're missing something. It can't be both. I don't-

58:02 Speaker 1 Can I ask you something?

58:03 Speaker 3 Yes.

58:04 Speaker 1 Why after Gimmel Tammuz, why after Gimmel Tammuz did more couples go out and continue to go out than before?

58:14 Speaker 3 Again, I, I, I, I'm not debating that point. I mean, I, I could, look, I could, I could give-

58:19 Speaker 1 It's a, it's not a point. It's a fact.

58:21 Speaker 3 I... No, no. 100% it's a fact. Um, 100% it's a fact. And, and, and I could, I, I, I could, I could recite the spiritual-

58:28 Speaker 1 You know-

58:29 Speaker 3 There, there are many, there, there are many ways to answer that question.

58:31 Speaker 1 Rav Lau, Rav Lau was once asked by an misnagid younger man, "What's with these Lubavitchers? They say that the Rebbe's living." He says to him, "Tell me, if your Rosh Yeshiva would tell you to go live in China, would you go?" "Oh," he says, "my Rosh Yeshiva would never tell me. And if he would, I wouldn't go." He says, "Okay. I was in China not long ago in this God-forsaken place, and all of a sudden I see this young couple with a child walking, and I say, 'What are you doing here?' 'The Rebbe sent us.'" He says, "Now you tell me, who's living? Your Rosh Yeshiva or their Rebbe?" Rav Lau, not me.

59:09 Speaker 3 I, I, I did... Look, first of all, I grew up in Hong Kong, which is right next to China.

59:14 Speaker 1 Okay.

59:14 Speaker 3 So, so that question, that, that story-

59:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

59:18 Speaker 3 ... that story hits very close to home.

59:20 Speaker 1 Okay.

59:21 Speaker 3 Uh, again, I, I'm not, I'm not looking to debate the-

59:26 Speaker 1 No, no, it's on facts

59:26 Speaker 3 ... No, no, because... No, no, no, meaning, meaning... No, there's no question there are more shluchim today than there was before. There's no question that, that many people thought that shlichus would stop or people would stop going on a shlichus, and yet it hasn't. There's no question. I don't think that's debatable. Um, the only thing I was pushing back on or, or just asking a question about was you said a comment that you and your husband had said that the boys and girls of today are much further ahead than you were. And that is something that I have a problem with. I have a problem accepting that personally. I understand a lot of people feel that way, and I can't say that they're wrong. You know, uh, it's a big world out there, and people feel different ways. Personally, I feel that it's hard to square that kind of optimistic look at what's going on today with at the same time the recognition that today's generation is missing something that the generation before them or the two generations before them had. And not only that, they are raised knowing that they're missing something. They are told that they're missing something.

1:00:38 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:00:38 Speaker 3 They're told that they have to go and hear what happened in that year and the other year. When, when you were growing up, you weren't being told that. You weren't being told, "Oh, the Rebbe Rashab this, and the Rebbe Maharash that." We have a Rebbe that the Frierdiker, when the Frierdiker passed away, the Rebbe came, and, and, and, you know, life was always in the present. Today, it's not like that. So I, I don't know how-

1:00:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't, I don't know why you're saying life is not like that because the truth of the matter is, obviously, when the Rebbe physically was here, I mean, I, I, I'd do anything in the world to go back to that.

1:01:13 Speaker 3 Fair.

1:01:13 Speaker 1 No two ways about it. I mean, I'm not comparing that. I'm not comparing the situation of the Rebbe having the influence he has over us by us not seeing him or having the influence over us when, and we do see him. I'm not discussing that. What I'm saying is, who would have believed-

1:01:30 Speaker 3 Fair enough

1:01:30 Speaker 1 ... that not seeing the Rebbe, they would still believe in the Rebbe? They don't see him, they believe in him. And they... And not only they believe in him, they live the life that the Rebbe would want them to live. That's, that's... It's, it's mind-shattering. It's mind-blowing that... And it's not a group, a cl- a clan, a cult. It's a world. It's a world. And, and, and it's a world that in, in a certain sense, you know... All right. This is gonna seem that it's completely out of it, but you know, you know, the, the fraye velt or even the not so Jew... Uh, it, it... By religious Jews, uh, women are second-class citizens and discrimination and this and all that. I love to bring this example. It's a recent example, but, you know- The Kinus Hashlachim, I think it was the last one before COVID, there were four thousand people there. I think three thousand were shluchim, and about a thousand were the supporters of the shluchim. And the shliach that spoke was thanking the supporters. You can't work without supporters, 100%. But he finished off his speech with, "But our biggest supporters are our wives." 4,000 men spontaneously got up and clapped. You show me that somewhere. Show me that anywhere. I'll show you 5,000 men clapping for some actress or for some CEO or for some I don't know what. Show me 10 men that'll get up and clap for their wives, their biggest-- But our biggest supporters are our wives.

1:03:18 Speaker 3 So, so I actually want, I actually want-

1:03:19 Speaker 1 And that comes from the Rebbe.

1:03:21 Speaker 3 Okay, so that's what I-

1:03:22 Speaker 1 And that comes from the Rebbe.

1:03:23 Speaker 3 Okay, so I wanted, I wanted to ask you about that, actually. When, when did you sense that something was shifting with how either the Friediker Rebbe or the Rebbe began to... With how they related to women? When did that shift? It wasn't always, it wasn't always like this.

1:03:40 Speaker 1 Well, wait, wait, wait.

1:03:41 Speaker 3 One second, one second.

1:03:42 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. Hold on a second.

1:03:43 Speaker 3 In Russia, it wasn't like this.

1:03:45 Speaker 1 It, it was a different life. It was a different lifestyle.

1:03:48 Speaker 3 Right.

1:03:49 Speaker 1 So it, it wasn't, it wasn't even necessary. Although, you know, Aches Tomimim is, is wasn't born now, okay? Aches Tomimim was, was before by the Rebbeim. The w- it was a different lifestyle, and you didn't need it. But here in America, when it started with, you know, this... There-- I don't believe there is any other organization in the world or any group or any cult or whatever we wanna call them, where the women are so honored, where they we are so appreciated, where they have the importance that they have, and we sit behind the mechitza.

1:04:24 Speaker 3 But when did, when, when did it... Did, did you feel a time where the-

1:04:26 Speaker 1 The Rebbe did this all along. I always say the Rebbe did not send out a couple, a shliach, and a woman to take care of his laundry.

1:04:34 Speaker 3 Uh.

1:04:35 Speaker 1 He sent out a shliach and a shlucha.

1:04:37 Speaker 3 Fair enough. Fair.

1:04:38 Speaker 1 And both on the same level.

1:04:39 Speaker 3 Fair enough. Fair enough.

1:04:40 Speaker 1 Okay?

1:04:40 Speaker 3 Fair enough.

1:04:41 Speaker 1 Sure.

1:04:41 Speaker 3 But, but, but-

1:04:42 Speaker 1 Very fair enough. Oh, excuse me. So the men had a con- a kenes. They had a congress. The women also had a congress, but the women had also children. Well, the husbands had to stay home and take care of those children, okay? The only kids they couldn't take care of was were the ones that needed to be nursed. Other than that, they had to stay home and take it, and not one man complained about it. Where do you find that? Where do you find that?

1:05:03 Speaker 3 I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing. Um, all I, all I'm asking is when did it, when did it, when did w-

1:05:11 Speaker 1 I, I think it happened gradually.

1:05:13 Speaker 3 Do you remember, do you remember there being like a shift? Do you... No.

1:05:16 Speaker 1 No.

1:05:16 Speaker 3 You don't remember there being a shift?

1:05:17 Speaker 1 No, I don't remember that because whatever it was, I think the Rebbe was aligned with the times. If this is what the times need, this is what he did. If this is what... It, it was like... I, I don't know. I don't know.

1:05:29 Speaker 3 So 'cause you were s- you're saying that already the Friediker Rebbe was having yechidasin with women, with w-w-with women.

1:05:33 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

1:05:34 Speaker 3 Right.

1:05:35 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

1:05:36 Speaker 3 Do, do you know if the Friediker Rebbe had yechidasin with women back in Poland and Russia?

1:05:40 Speaker 1 I have no idea.

1:05:41 Speaker 3 You don't know.

1:05:41 Speaker 1 I just know that my mother used to go in on yechidas to the Friediker Rebbe whenever she wanted.

1:05:45 Speaker 3 In America?

1:05:46 Speaker 1 In America.

1:05:47 Speaker 3 America.

1:05:47 Speaker 1 And s- and, and the Rebbe already wasn't feeling so great. He had nurse. Sometimes the nurse would have to take care of the Rebbe, prepare him 'cause he's going to have yechidas.

1:05:55 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:05:55 Speaker 1 My mother was never refused a yechidas from the Rebbe. By the way, I told you about Chaya Fagin was her brother-in-law, right?

1:06:01 Speaker 3 Right.

1:06:01 Speaker 1 So it means her sister, Sasha, was Chaya Fagin's wife.

1:06:04 Speaker 3 Right. For those who don't know, Chaya Fagin was a f- was a secretary of the-

1:06:07 Speaker 1 Secretary

1:06:07 Speaker 3 ... Friediker Rebbe back in, back in Europe.

1:06:09 Speaker 1 In Europe, yeah, in Poland. And one day, the Rebbe says to Chaya, he saw Sasha. He-- By chance the Rebbe was sitting in the window. He saw Sa- Sasha. "She looks pale today."

1:06:21 Speaker 3 Sasha is your mother?

1:06:22 Speaker 1 Sasha is my mother's sister.

1:06:23 Speaker 3 Mother's sister, okay.

1:06:24 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:06:25 Speaker 3 Chaya Fagin's wife.

1:06:25 Speaker 1 Chaya Fagin's wife. So the Rebbe says to Chaya, he saw Sasha today. She walked past him, and, "She looks pale today." The Rebbe had nothing else to worry about.

1:06:35 Speaker 3 So this is back in Europe already?

1:06:36 Speaker 1 This is back in Poland.

1:06:37 Speaker 3 Back in Poland.

1:06:38 Speaker 1 Yeah. They ne- they never came out. Chaya and Sasha never came out.

1:06:42 Speaker 3 Right.

1:06:43 Speaker 1 Okay? So like it was never, it was never in any, in Lubavitch to belittle the woman or she wasn't a lot of importance.

1:06:51 Speaker 3 No, but I mean, but when you were growing up, right, so you, you have very vivid memories of growing up in Pittsburgh, and you already described how your mother was a very, um, devoted, uh, Chassid of the Friediker Rebbe at the time. So in that sense, you didn't feel like that there was a difference between, let's say, your father and your mother. But shlichas wasn't even really a thing at that time, right?

1:07:12 Speaker 1 But they were shluchim. W- we knew that they were sent by the Rebbe where they were.

1:07:15 Speaker 3 Right. So, so, so, so you're saying that the idea of a couple going out on shlichas together already existed to you as a child, right?

1:07:22 Speaker 1 To me, that was the normal way of living.

1:07:24 Speaker 3 Right. Okay.

1:07:26 Speaker 1 Although I knew that most people didn't live that way.

1:07:28 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:28 Speaker 1 But most people weren't Shomer Shabbos either. Most people weren't, uh, Eichas Chassidus either.

1:07:32 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:32 Speaker 1 So that-

1:07:33 Speaker 3 Well, in Lubavitch it was also uncommon. It wasn't only about... Like it was-

1:07:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I didn't know that many Lubavitchers.

1:07:38 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:38 Speaker 1 How many Lubavitchers were there in Pittsburgh?

1:07:39 Speaker 3 Right, right, right.

1:07:40 Speaker 1 So it's not as though I could compare. And then, of course, as a small child, I didn't, I didn't ana- analyze these things. It's now looking back, maybe. But-

1:07:48 Speaker 3 No, so I think, I think what's very interesting to me, what I'm, what I'm, what I'm, what I'm learning today is that, uh, there are a lot of things that can appear or have appeared to me to be new or, you know, Derech Shvi. Shlichas is a thing of Derech Shvi. Uh, maybe it was amplified in Derech Shvi, right? Maybe it was, uh, maybe it exploded, it grew in size in Derech Shvi. It became more normalized.

1:08:11 Speaker 1 You know, my husband-

1:08:12 Speaker 3 But it started earlier. That's my point

1:08:13 Speaker 1 ... my husband didn't see another Chassid other than his father till he was 10 years old. Why? Because the Friediker Rebbe, maybe it was the Rebbe Rashab, I don't... Maybe the Friediker Rebbe had sent... My father-in-law had told the Rebbe, "But there's a place in the Kreis in Krime or wherever it was that they don't have a shochet." So the Rebbe says, "The one that reads the letter should listen to it," and he sent him there. So my husband grew up where there were far shiech somewhere in, in Russia. He was 10 years old when he saw a second Chassid other than his father.

1:08:52 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:08:52 Speaker 1 Okay? This is going back how many years? 80 years ago, 90 years ago.

1:08:58 Speaker 3 Yeah. Very interesting.

1:08:59 Speaker 1 Okay?

1:09:00 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:09:00 Speaker 1 Okay. So th- that was Lubavitch. That was Lubavitch. The Rebbe, the Lubavitcher Rebbeim didn't worry about Lubavitch. They worried about Yiddishkeit.

1:09:11 Speaker 3 That was already... Sorry, sorry, just to, uh-

1:09:14 Speaker 1 When my husband-

1:09:15 Speaker 3 That was, that was, um, after the Communist Revolution? That was like, of course, that was part of the underground, or was this already before-

1:09:21 Speaker 1 Well, they were even the... See, see, see, they, yeah, of course they were underground. They were-- Of course they couldn't learn, uh, Torah.

1:09:26 Speaker 3 So this was already after the revolution, part of the Friediker Rebbe-

1:09:29 Speaker 1 Yes

1:09:29 Speaker 3 ... sending people around the country. But, uh, I guess the question would be if it started then. But, but really re- I mean, you could ask, you kee- you could keep on asking that, right? But really, the other Rebbeim also sent shluchim to Hebron-

1:09:42 Speaker 1 You're right

1:09:43 Speaker 3 ... and to other places.

1:09:44 Speaker 1 Because the Lubavitcher Rebbeim did not worry only about Lubavitchers. For them, yeah, every Yid was their, their problem, their, their outlook. E- even like when the Rebbe used to give out dollars, you would think that Lubavitchers get in line and finish. No. Biggest politician and the smallest baby got the same attention from the Rebbe.

1:10:07 Speaker 3 Right.

1:10:08 Speaker 1 Where do you find that? Where do you find that? The Rebbe is a neshama klalis. He is part of every- everybody's part of him. Everybody's part of him.

1:10:22 Speaker 3 I, I think, I think, um, you know, coming here, I, I was looking to hear, I was looking to hear about... In, in my mind, you know, it's always sometimes, it's always, it's always good to review a little bit and think, you know, "What did I think coming in, and what do I think now going out? Has anything changed?" Um, I think, I think the thing that I learned the most today was that I, I saw, or I've always understood this transition into America as being a lot more of like a, a very new tekufa, a very new era, um, that everything changed. And while I still believe that a lot of things changed with coming to America and in ways that I think we're only beginning to grapple with and comprehend today, I think it was very interesting to hear from you how, at least in your personal experience and in your family experience, a lot of what we identify with Lubavitch in America, whether it's shlichas or, or women being more involved in the Chassidis and becoming techius and so on, the way you describe it, it has roots well before that, and it has roots in the times of the Friediker Rebbe in, when he was in America. It has roots even before that. Uh, like you said, your husband and his father and his family being, uh, ekfelt in Russia. And, you know, in a way that's, in a way that's, um... Uh, it's certainly important to know that, right? It's

1:11:57 Speaker 3 important to know that, that what you think is new has deeper roots, because something that has deeper roots is stronger by definition. Um, and I think in a way it's also reassuring to know that. Um, it's, it's reassuring to know that because to feel that everything changed with coming to America, um, you know, it, it can feel a little bit dis- disorienting.

1:12:22 Speaker 1 Didn't they say that America is nisht andersh?

1:12:24 Speaker 3 Yes. Uh, except... Yes. Uh, that much I'm familiar with. The, the problem is that, you know, the, the, the Rebbe says something could be up here, right? It could be up here, and it could be true, but that doesn't mean that the reality on the ground feels that way, right? And what you're describing is that in your family, at least in that little apartment or home in Pittsburgh, there was a feeling, almost intuitively it sounds, of America is nisht andersh. Now, whether or not other Chassidim felt that way, um, whether or not every one of us can feel that way, uh, I don't even know if that's, that, that, that makes a difference really. It's, it, to, to hear that it was that way for at least one family, I think it means something on its own. Um, just to f- just to wrap this up, um, you know, you definitely, uh, have spoken with a lot of optimism and hope and positivity about where things are today. Is there anything that worries you going forward? Is there anything that concerns you going forward?

1:13:27 Speaker 1 I can't say something that concerns... The only thing that I wish for obviously is that the Rebbe should come back and Moshiach should be here, et cetera, et cetera. However, I feel very confident that the people will know what to do and how to behave. I feel very confident that because I can't get over what's going on. I can't. I can't. It, it, it, it, it blinds me practically when I see what's happening. You know? It's, it... I find it so beautiful. I find it so beautiful. These kids didn't grow up in a ghetto. They didn't grow up not being able to see that there's a world out there. They see it, and they're choosing this world. It's mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing. And that's, and, and that gives me a lot of hope, a lot of hope. I, I mean, when I talk to the girls and I say, "You girls, you're going to be in the front row to greet Moshiach when the, when the Rebbe will be in his galut as Moshiach." I say, "Do me one favor. Reserve two seats in the front row, one for my husband and me."

1:14:33 Speaker 3 Fair enough. Fair enough. But I, I do... I, I know I said that was the final question, but I wanna, I wanna end with a more positive framing of a question, and I wanna tie it back to what you were describing earlier, which I thought was also very beautiful, which is you, you spoke about how together with all of the, you know, big feelings that you observed in your parents towards the Rebbe and towards their Lubavitch identity and/or just being Chassidim, what you started off with was how much they loved you, right? And, you know, as I'm thinking, as we're talking now, reflecting on this conversation, you know,I, I think about how, y- you know, how much change and upheaval they were experiencing, and how much uncertainty they must have had themselves, and yet you didn't feel it at all, right? Because you were protected, uh, by them, and you were showered with love by them, and that wa- that was what you were certain about. The, the uncertainty they kept to themselves, and the certainty-

1:15:39 Speaker 4 I don't think they had uncertainties. I don't think they did

1:15:41 Speaker 3 ... But you certainly didn't feel it, right? Right?

1:15:43 Speaker 4 No.

1:15:43 Speaker 3 And, and you certainly felt as... Even if they had uncertainties-

1:15:46 Speaker 4 I didn't know about it

1:15:47 Speaker 3 ... Right. Yeah, and I would imagine the world was uncertain to them 'cause it was a new country. It was a new country. I mean, it was a ver- it was a whole n- it was a brave new world.

1:15:54 Speaker 4 Hold on a second.

1:15:55 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:15:56 Speaker 4 My father's aunts, his fa- his father's sisters brought him to America. They were in America, fancy ladies, important people, da, da. When they, my parents came, so my aunt wanted my father to become a mohel in a hospital somewhere in New Jersey, and they were going to... He would've lived the life of Riley. Could he just cut his beard a little bit, and could he just make his kapote a little shorter? And my father said to my mother, "Let's get out of here now."

1:16:31 Speaker 3 Hmm.

1:16:31 Speaker 4 Okay? He was guaranteed a job. He was guaranteed a position. He was guaranteed, shmaranteed, paranteed. They wanted to touch his beard or his kapote, and he said to my mother, "Let's get out of here now."

1:16:46 Speaker 3 Eh, I sa- I, okay, I, I see what you're saying. You, he, he was, he, he wa-

1:16:51 Speaker 4 He knew exactly what he wanted.

1:16:53 Speaker 3 Right. But I o- o- the, the, I guess the point I was, the point I was, I was looking to see what you thought about was, you know, I can speak for myself. I can't, I certainly can't speak for your father.

1:17:04 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:17:04 Speaker 3 I can speak for myself, and I can speak for a lot of people my age. Um, you know, for us there's a lot of uncertainty. For me, there's a lot of uncertainty looking towards the future. I, I, I take your point about seeing a lot of young, young boys and girls in the streets down, dancing Seudat Beis HaShoeva, and all these kind of positive signs or things that show... But, uh, to me, there's a lot of uncertainty. I, I, I, I'm not sure what things are gonna look like in 20, 30 years. Um, but what do you think your parents' example of how they showed their love to their children, what kind of lesson, what kind of example does, is that for people like myself and people in my generation? Looking at the future, perhaps not sure about the future, what is a lesson that we draw from how your parents were to you?

1:17:57 Speaker 4 Many times we can be very critical of different people, of our own children, even times when they'll disappoint us. That happens. I think the most important thing is for parents to show their love to the-- unconditional love to their children. That doesn't mean that the child who is doing what the parent doesn't want him to do should think that the parent approves of what he's doing. No. You have to be very clear about your ideals. You have to be very clear about what's important to you. But your love for the child should not be minimally touched by whatever else is happening. Because if a child, Rachmana Litzlan, does go off the way, the only way you can hope that they'll come back is through their love. A child must know he can always depend on his parents. That's how I feel. No matter what. Again, if he's not doing what you, you don't, you don't approve what he's doing, he should know that. He should know it. He shouldn't convince himself, "Oh, he's fine. My, his parents are okay with it." No, his parents are not okay with it. His parents are okay with him. His parents love him, and they will support him, and they will take care of him. He always has where to cur- come back to. But their ideals should not be compromised.

1:19:24 Speaker 3 And you felt that with your parents, that if you had not lived up to the way they thought about being a Lubavitcher Hasid, they would still have loved you?

1:19:33 Speaker 4 Um, very frankly, I don't think I ever thought about it. I don't think I ever thought that, that it's not as if... But, you know, I'll tell you something very silly, okay? I was 14 years old, and like a lot of 14, I had a crush on a boy. And of course, this isn't part of our makeup. This isn't... But my family all knew about it. Everybody knew about it. It was no, it was no secret. My mother happened to be in New York. The boy that I had a crush on was, let's say, 23, 24, and I was 14. She says, "You like, uh, so and so, don't you?" I said, "Hmm, yeah." "Do you think he's gonna wait for you?" I said, "I don't know." But you know, two weeks later, he became a chasun. Later on, I find out my mother knew he was going to become a chasun. She didn't want me to be disappointed. She was preparing me without me knowing it. Imagine, my Hasidisha mother with this schnook of a 14-year-old jerk, if you excuse me. And what? She had a crush on a boy. She had a crush on a boy, and she didn't want me to be dis- She didn't want for him-- She, 'cause she knew who... My brother-in-law was the shadchan for that boy. He made everyone promise not to tell me that he was the shadchan , okay? When I later on realized that my mother had done this because she wanted to protect

1:20:54 Speaker 4 me, she wanted-- She didn't want me to be disappointed. C- c- come on, tell the truth. A 14-year-old, I had a cr- every month I could have done a shad, crush on a different guy. What, so what? I can't forget that. I can't forget that. This Russian Hasidisha mother understood this jerky American kid, and for what? A shtus, a narishkeit. Okay?

1:21:22 Speaker 3 Well, look, if based on what you're saying, it wasn't, it wa-

1:21:26 Speaker 4 Unconditional love

1:21:27 Speaker 3 ... Right. It wasn't a Russian mother with an American kid. It was a mother and a daughter.

1:21:31 Speaker 4 Oh, thanks.

1:21:31 Speaker 3 Period, period, end of story.

1:21:32 Speaker 4 Thank you. Thank you.

1:21:33 Speaker 3 I'm just saying.

1:21:33 Speaker 4 Thank you. A mother, uh, uh, uh.

1:21:35 Speaker 3 I'm saying.

1:21:35 Speaker 4 It was a Russian mother with an American kid. Okay.

1:21:37 Speaker 3 Right. Right. But, but, but, but a mother-- but ultimately a mother and a daughter, uh, according to what you're saying is-

1:21:42 Speaker 4 I told you-

1:21:42 Speaker 3 ... is a lot deeper than any of these kind of categories

1:21:44 Speaker 4 ... when I came, I told you I was a very lucky person. I always had people that were smart and good that, that were my... Even my, my menehelis, Rebbetzin Kaplan in Bais Yaakov. Again, I'm telling you silly things. I had a crazy, stupid crush when I was 16 years old also, and without going into all the, the-

1:22:08 Speaker 3 Okay, your family's not, your family's not gonna let me publish this now

1:22:11 Speaker 4 ... And he, and he became, uh, he, he got engaged, and I was very, "Oh, it was the end of the world." Imagine my parents brought me. I was in New York. They brought me back to Pittsburgh for the weekend just to comfort me. Okay. I come back to New York, and I see Rebbetzin Kaplan. I said, "Oh, Rebbetzin Kaplan, regards from my parents." "Regards from your parents?" "Yeah, I was, I was home for... I used to go home twice a year. Yeah, I was, I was home for Shabbos." "You were home for Shabbos?" I went-- And then she goes like this, "Basia, you're making me very curious." What am I gonna tell her? But the way she said that, so I said, I said, "Well, there was a boy I liked, and he got engaged." Imagine me telling that to menehelis of Bais Yaakov. Okay? She was so the shofar student. And when I told this to my seminary girls, I had a girl from Antwerp, from Bais Yaakov. I said, "What do you think she answered me when I told her that?" So the girl goes, "Get out of my school! Get out of my school!" I told her, "There was a boy I liked, and he got engaged." She says to me, "Was it as serious as all that?" She didn't condemn me. She didn't say, "Oh, Basia, this Basia Shvitzie." She-- None of that. She said, "Was it as serious as all that?" You know what those words did to me?

1:23:35 Speaker 4 Do you know what those words did to me? The love, the understanding, the not making me feel an ounce of say, "Ah, Basia, she have a, a Bais Yaakov girl. She has a crush on a boy." None of that. None of that. "Was it as serious as all that?" Okay? So here my mother to a 14-year-old girl. Here my menehelis to Bais Yaakov, Rebbetzin Kaplan, who was... Doesn't get more than that. No one was judgmental. No one made me feel guilty. No one made me feel less than. Each one made me feel how much they loved me and understood me.

1:24:17 Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, we're, we're already going over time, so I don't want to take up too much more of your time. But, but I, I do feel that, you know, in many ways, people talk about the past, you know, about their grandparents growing up. A lot of times it focuses on like, "Oh, yeah, so there was in Lubavitch, the Rebbe was there," or in other places, these other dayanim were there, and, you know, that's why things were different. And first of all, these kind of stories tell us that things weren't so different. You know- ... girls are having crushes on boys, and things were s-- you know, life was going on in many ways very similar to today. But what does strike me as being very different or seems very different is that the older generation felt that, and so I, I don't know if I'm finding the right words, but they had the confidence that they could love the younger generation unconditionally, allow them to grow up and, and, and come into their own, and that it would work out. And I feel that today, part of the uncertainty that we have, the part of the... One of the results of that uncertainty for many people is that there isn't that trust. And so there's a lot more, you know, if a girl says that she has a crush, "Oh my God, it's the end of the world. We have to, we have to nip it in the bud. We have to teach a

1:25:34 Speaker 3 lesson." You know, if your child is a little bit, uh, rebellious, you have to knock, you know, knock some sense into them. And, you know, of course, you could talk about, well, is that the right parenting strategy or not? That's not what I'm talking about. I think it has a lot to do with your parents' generation and your principal, even though she wasn't a Lubavitch rebbetzin.

1:25:53 Speaker 4 No, not at all.

1:25:53 Speaker 3 But it was a generation, it was a generation where they ha- they had a lot of hope for the next generation. They really believed that you and your friends and their, and, and, or if it was their children, could grow up and, and, and, and, and, and grow into, grow into their own.

1:26:08 Speaker 4 But can I tell you-

1:26:08 Speaker 3 Come into their own. And I think in a way, that's what we're missing today. I'm not saying we have to be missing it.

1:26:12 Speaker 4 No, no, no, but you know something? I think that though, in those years, in the '40s and '50s in America, you know, my brother Zalman once said that in the '30s, someone asked a rabbi, "What do you see as the future of Judaism in America?" And he answered, "In 30 years from now, Jews are going to eat matzah with ham."

1:26:30 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:31 Speaker 4 All right?

1:26:31 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:26:32 Speaker 4 This was what the p-pros looked like. And when, when, technically when Rebbetzin Kaplan started Bais Yaakov in America, it was like, either this or forget it. The, the, she saved Amsh... The Rebbe spoke about her in a sicha also.

1:26:47 Speaker 3 And yet, and yet they trusted you. Despite all that, they trusted you.

1:26:50 Speaker 4 Not every, not everybody was as smart as Rebbetzin Kaplan.

1:26:52 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:26:52 Speaker 4 Not everybody was as trustful as she. I told you I was lucky.

1:26:56 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:26:56 Speaker 4 I was lucky that those were the ones that I had. But they weren't all, and there were... I, I remember, I remember in Bais Yaakov, a yid with a long white beard, I mean, crying because a girl was being sent out of Bais Yaakov because she wasn't behaving properly. And there's a chabad, and he was begging, "Please, keep her there." I mean, in those days in the f- '50s, early '50s, things were pretty loose already.

1:27:19 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:27:19 Speaker 4 Things were already pretty loose. I mean, Freud

1:27:22 Speaker 3 Okay, so, you know, I, I guess from, from these stories, I cannot draw... They're just anecdotal.

1:27:28 Speaker 4 Mm.

1:27:28 Speaker 3 I cannot draw large conclusions from them.

1:27:30 Speaker 4 No.

1:27:30 Speaker 3 But, but, I mean, that's a feeling that I've had, but I can't base it on these stories. But I think at the very least what we can bring out is that it's very easy to look at your story and say, "Well, if only I had lived in that time-

1:27:44 Speaker 4 Mm

1:27:44 Speaker 3 ... and I was raising my children with, uh, you know, the Rebbe was here, and everything made sense, then I would have it all figured out." And the lesson that I'm taking, I cannot say what other people should take from it or what's right or what's wrong, but the lesson that I'm taking is that the difference that I see in how your parents raised you is not so much the around them, which anyway you can't control, but how they dealt with you, which is what they can control, right? And, and to me that's, at least again, to me, that's a very important lesson, you know. Um, when we look, when we look to the past, it's very easy to look at the things that make it different from the outside, the things that we can't control. And in a way that's a little bit of deflection because if I can't control it, then there's nothing I can do about it, so leave it alone, right?

1:28:33 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

1:28:34 Speaker 3 And, yeah, it's not my fault. But, you know, um, being able to, uh, you know, deal with my child in a way where, or my children, you know, in a way where they both feel an unconditional love and a trust that they will grow up to be who are they, they're meant to be-

1:28:54 Speaker 4 And transmit your values.

1:28:56 Speaker 3 Right.

1:28:57 Speaker 4 Be clear about-

1:28:58 Speaker 3 Right

1:28:58 Speaker 4 ... your values.

1:29:00 Speaker 3 I-

1:29:00 Speaker 4 Transmit your value system.

1:29:02 Speaker 3 That to me, that to me is an important lesson that, that I'm taking from this conversation. That is something that despite all the changes and all the differences, uh, and everything that might be different up from today to when you were growing up, I think those are very important lessons that we can learn today. So thank you very much for doing this.

1:29:21 Speaker 4 You're welcome.

1:29:21 Speaker 3 I know you have family here and other better things to do than to, uh, l- listen to me, uh, talk.

1:29:27 Speaker 4 N- nothing is... I have nothing better to do.

1:29:30 Speaker 3 Okay.

1:29:31 Speaker 4 Okay.

1:29:31 Speaker 3 Uh, anyway, uh, have a wonderful rest of Sukkot, a good

1:29:53 Speaker 4 Thank you

1:29:55 Speaker 3 ...