Ep. 5 // "Does Shlichus Have Anything To Do With Me?" with Sholom Jacobs

00:00 Speaker 1 The crazy thing is the Rebbe was so clear to all the businessmen and to everybody else that, you know, that everyone's a shliach. It's not like once or twice. I mean, the Rebbe's told hundreds of people within, you know, with letters and videos as we all know. What can you do to make the world a better place? And, um, I think it's definitely very different than, you know, than what we thought it was when we were kids.

00:22 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-three. My name is Bentzi Hofstien, and I will be your host. Let's begin. All righty. Thank you very much for joining this podcast. We have here Shalom Jacobs, a good friend of mine who, um, who I met about a year or so ago, a year and a half ago, and, uh, he'll, he'll tell you a little bit more about himself shortly. But, uh, we met right here at this table, um, and, uh, we were filming a, a, a spot for a, for an organization who wanted to share the experience of a Shabbos table, a Friday night Shabbos meal with, with people on video. And so they had asked Shalom and his family to host this program in their home, and I came to film it. And, you know, what was interesting to me then was, is that from the outside, if someone would've walked into the room, they would've seen, you know, Shalom making kiddush, um, and l- you know, Shalom looks like a typical, uh, Long Island businessman, real estate guy, looks the part. Um, and there's me, you know, what was I wearing? Probably a, a sweatshirt and, and some khakis, you know, with my video camera and my crew. And, you know, people would be like, "Maybe the client has to do a shlichas, but the people working on this spot don't have much to do with shlichas." And what was interesting to me

02:04 Speaker 2 was, and I remember speaking to you about it then, was that as we were talking about the pr- uh, about the spot, we, we both s- came back to the Friday night Shabbos meal that we had grown up with in our fathers and our parents' Chabad houses, and we wanted to share that feeling that we had grown up with of the Shalom Aleichem and explanations of the different things of the Shabbos table. We wanted to share that feeling on, on the video as well. And, you know, to me, that told me that, like, you know, there, there's a whole, there's a whole Parsha essentially of, of the inspiration of shlichas, the experience of shlichas that lives on in many of us who perhaps haven't continued, um, or haven't gone back to do, to do that kind of work. But there is a lot that we still carry from that, and a lot of good memories and a lot of, a lot of positive memories, a lot of inspiration that we take from there. And I think in many ways that's part of the story. That's a, that's an inalienable part of the shlichas story as well. Certainly as going forward, um, for, for, for, for those of us and for, for, for many of us who have chosen different paths or have found different paths in life, um, this is a big part of the shlichas story. It doesn't just end. It continues in different ways. At least that's what I thought, and we spoke

03:31 Speaker 2 about it then, and we figured, you know, when, when we began this podcast that we'll, we'll do the full-length version of it, right? So, um, with no further ado, uh, this is Shalom Jacobs. Why don't you, why don't you tell us a little bit-- Introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about, you know, your-- where you come from, your upbringing, and how we ended up here in Five Towns.

03:50 Speaker 1 Absolutely. First of all, thanks for having me. Um, Shalom Jacobs, originally from Glasgow, Scotland. Um, I lived there till I was 16 years old. Um, I then went to yeshiva in Israel for three years. Um, and then a few of my friends in Israel, um, had a great idea, said, "Why don't you come to the US instead of going back to Scotland or go back to England?" Which I was originally gonna do. I was gonna go back to Manchester University. I was going to do speech therapy and voice training, and, um, that was the career path that I thought I would take. And, um-

04:25 Speaker 2 When, when did, when-- Sorry.

04:26 Speaker 1 Yeah.

04:26 Speaker 2 When, when, when did you, when did you decide that you were going to do that? Like at what age did you decide that you were going to take a different path?

04:33 Speaker 1 In high, in high school. So, uh, j- right before I left Scotland, 16 years old.

04:38 Speaker 2 So do you wanna describe a little bit the kind of high school that you went to? Give, give us a little bit more detail of what kind of high school you went to and-

04:44 Speaker 1 Su- sure. So by high, by high school already it was basically we had private tutors. Um, there wasn't too many people left that would, um, that would work for my parents to send us to school with. Um, so by that point already it was really, um, borderline homeschooling. Um, but my parents were, you know, um, they wanted to make sure we got a real education. They wanted to make sure we got, in the UK, our O levels or A levels, um, which we did, thankfully. I'm proud of having them. Um, so that if we ever, you know, did wanna go down another career or another path, that we had that opportunity. So, um, yeah, I would say when I was around 16 years old, a couple of my, um... It was actually my English teacher, um, she saw my passion for, you know, voice and singing and, and, um, she thought it would be a great combo to do it with like something like speech therapy or something like that, which could complement each other, and that was something that I thought I would go down.

05:38 Speaker 2 So already growing up, I think this is a very important part of the shlichas story, is that, you know, you, you, you grew up, you grew up in a community with most- mostly probably or all of them not being Lubavitchers, right?

05:53 Speaker 1 Correct.

05:53 Speaker 2 Uh, it sounds like you went to a school that your parents ran?

05:56 Speaker 1 Correct, yes.

05:57 Speaker 2 So you went to a school that your parents ran. Um, you know- It sounds also that you had a that you probably wouldn't have had if your parents had decided to live in Crown Heights.

06:08 Speaker 1 Correct.

06:08 Speaker 2 All right. So, so, so let's talk a little bit about, you know, y- your parents choosing to already set you up with options. Like, that, that's not something that really exists in the-- Or it doesn't exist at scale, you know, in this, in the quote unquote, uh, headquarter communities like Crown Heights, you know, in-town communities. Talk a little bit about what, what that was about and, I mean, 'cause I had a similar experience, you know? Was that something that you wanted, that you insisted to your parents that, "I also wanna have an English education"? Was it something that your parents felt you needed?

06:42 Speaker 1 It was definitely my parents, um, especially my mother. Um, you know, both of them being baal teshuvas I'm sure had something to do with it at some point. Um, but my mother felt very, very strongly still to this day that, you know, people need an e- need an education. And, you know, I think especially, you know, I don't know if she ever thought that some of us might go down the path that they went down or may not go down the path. You know, some of us did, some of us didn't. But, um, overall, she definitely felt you need to have an education, whatever you do in life.

07:09 Speaker 2 Was, was there a, was, was there ever a sense of what your parents wanted you to become when you, when you got older? And like, did they-- Were they nudging you in the direction of shluchus? Was that something that you felt was something they wanted you to do or...?

07:23 Speaker 1 I think at a younger age, I think the expectation was just from that generation, I think everyone thought their older kids were going to be shluchim, future shluchim, and I don't think anyone realized how big, you know, Chabad would be and how many locations, and we'd still need a lot more locations to be able to fill all those spots. Um, you know, my, my parents were one of the first 50 shluchim to go out, so-

07:43 Speaker 2 Mm

07:43 Speaker 1 ...to tell you how early it was and how small Lubavitch was in those days. Um, so I think at a very early age, I'm sure they did. But, you know, by the time we were teenagers, and these-- I think they saw, you know, that everyone was going a little bit of their own direction. Um, you know, still with the, you know, the Lubavitch and the Rebbes, you know, being an anchor and being part of their lives and part of our lives, um, I think, I think they realized that, you know, everyone's gonna go, you know, and do what they need to do.

08:09 Speaker 2 Okay. So you just said a very interesting thing there about, um, changing course without letting go of the anchor, right? Which usually, usually isn't the case, right? An anchor is something to hold you in place, right? So that you don't drift.

08:24 Speaker 1 Right.

08:24 Speaker 2 Uh, and, and you, you, you just described a, a, a, a moment where you started changing directions even though you felt and still feel, I guess, or at least at the time felt that, um, the Rebbe was your anchor and, and, and Chabad was your anchor. Um, talk me through a little bit about how you were able, or if you were able, to change course without feeling that something very central, central to your life was not being upended.

08:56 Speaker 1 Right. So I think in those days, I think it was, you know, much more uncommon, um, you know, being able to still be Frum. And like I said, you know, the beard wasn't for me from a very early age. I just knew it wasn't something I wanted to do.

09:09 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:09 Speaker 1 Um, but I also knew that I wanted to keep Shabbos and, you know, we're talking about the Friday night table. And I knew that, you know, most of the things, you know, Frum kite I wanted to be part of. Um, but, you know, I didn't want to be tied down by absolutely everything like we're talking about. And, you know, everyone picks and chooses for the right or the wrong. Um, and I had to make decisions, and, you know, there wasn't many people around. Um, like you said, there was no other Lubavitchers in Scotland, and there was not really, you know, too many people around for me to speak to in that climate, um, in Scotland especially. Um, and thankfully, when I went to, you know, Israel, I got very lucky and ended up in a yeshiva called Lev Ariyeh. Um, the Rosh Yeshiva's, uh, Rabbi Rappaport, and, uh, the mashgiach is Rabbi Lopian. And I'll never forget, um, one of my-

09:58 Speaker 2 So just, just-

09:59 Speaker 1 Sorry

09:59 Speaker 2 ...just to be clear, that's not a Chabad yeshiva.

10:00 Speaker 1 Not a Chabad yeshiva.

10:01 Speaker 2 Right.

10:02 Speaker 1 Um, and Rabbi Rappaport comes from a, uh, a very friendly to Lubavitch, um, family. Um, his father, alav ha-shalom, was, uh, Dion Rappaport in London.

10:13 Speaker 2 Right.

10:13 Speaker 1 Very, very, very respected man, um, and was a great friend to Lubavitch all the years. Um, and I walked into to his yeshiva, and one of my friends said, "Oh, why don't you come for an interview?" And, you know, it was a cool yeshiva. You didn't have to wear white shirts. It was, you know, you could wear jeans and a-- Uh, no, no jeans. You could wear khakis and a blue shirt. I'm like, "That's a perfect place for me. You know, that would work for me."

10:37 Speaker 2 Oh, so you fell into that yeshiva. You were just, you were just visiting and you-

10:40 Speaker 1 I was visiting. I was looking for a yeshiva. And, um, I'd already been the year before just trying to find a place that would work for me. Um, and I was in Tveria, Jerusalem for a few months, and then ended up in Lev Ariyeh with a friend. And, um, the mashgiach, uh, said to me-- Sorry. Excuse me. My friend said, "Go and speak to Rabbi Rappaport. Um, he's the Rosh Yeshiva here." It was the second day of, uh, Seder. Uh, the second day of Sefirah, excuse me. And, um, I go up to him, and I said-- He said, "Shalom aleichem." And I hear the English accent, and he said, uh, "Where are you-- What's your name?" I said, "Shalom Jacobs." "Where are you from?" "Scotland." And the first thing he says to me is, "Is your father Chaim Jacobs?" I'm like, "Oh my goodness, what did I get involved in over here?" Um-

11:25 Speaker 2 It was all set. It was all a plan. It was all set up.

11:27 Speaker 1 Yeah. All a, all a plan, all a set up. And the rest is really history. Um, he said, "Go and speak to Rabbi Lopian," you know, the mashgiach. We-- I ended up speaking to him for about four hours, and before the end of the day, I was in the yeshiva, and then I ended up being there for, like, a year and a half, and they're still such a big part of my life.

11:42 Speaker 2 Wow. What year was that?

11:44 Speaker 1 That was 1995.

11:46 Speaker 2 So you're talking about the year after Gemilut Chassadim.

11:49 Speaker 1 Yes.

11:49 Speaker 2 Right. So-

11:50 Speaker 1 It was all right after Gemilut Chassadim

11:51 Speaker 2 So this is a, this is a very, very kind of interesting time in Chabad history. A lot of turbulence and a lot of upheaval, no question.

11:59 Speaker 1 Totally.

11:59 Speaker 2 Um, w- was there any, like... Was it, was it-- Was there any, like, thinking of Dafka going to a Chabad yeshiva, Dafka going not to Chabad yeshiva, or was it just this is the place that you found?

12:12 Speaker 1 To be totally honest, I just, I, you know- My parents were very into us having friends, and most of my friends were from Bnei Akiva, and you know, were more, you know, on the Hesder, you know, scale of things. Um, and most of them were going to Gush or Bravinders or, you know, those type of yeshivas. And, you know, I was very, very close with them, and, you know, my parents encouraged us to have, you know, good friends, and they always wanted us to have that. Um-

12:36 Speaker 2 You're talking about your Scottish friends?

12:37 Speaker 1 Scottish friends. So when it came to going to Israel or y- you know, for yeshiva or the year off, what people did, um, you know, I wanted to be s- somewhere close to my friends, and I wanted to be able to be in reach with them and go to them for Shabbos and different things. Um, so I definitely, you know, I wanted somewhere that I would be able to fit in and also, you know, still stay connected.

12:59 Speaker 2 Right. Right. That, that's, that's a very, it's a very, um i- i- it, it's a part of the shlichus experience that goes very often unmentioned, which is that, you know, when you grow up in a community, you, as, as a child growing up in a community, you know, what your parents tell you about your identity is in many ways an abstraction, right? Like, we're Lubavitchers, the Rebbe's in New York, there's a whole bunch of Hasidim in New York all around the world. When you're growing up in a community that's... When you're growing up in, in Scotland as a child, what you see in front of your eyes is Scotland, not, not those things. Those things are all things that you heard about.

13:44 Speaker 1 Sure.

13:44 Speaker 2 What you see is what you see in front of you. What you experience are your friends that you play ball with and-

13:48 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm

13:48 Speaker 2 ... play games with and learn with and have fun with, et cetera. Um, so, you know, uh, I was actually talking to my brother about, about this, you know, my brother Mendy, and, and, you know, it was a similar kind of conversation where, you know, it's like he comes to yeshiva and he never really feels like this is his place. Yes, he's cousins with half the guys there. Yes, his grandparents are gedes from all sides. Yes, he has all the, all the credentials and all the ac- you know, all the, all the... On paper it all makes sense, but that's all in the abstract.

14:19 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:19 Speaker 2 And, and right? And, and, and so it's very interesting how, you know, what you're describing would f- you know, on paper would seem like an act of rebellion. You know, you grew up in a Chabad house. You're in a Chabad home. Your parents are shluchim. Like, of course you go to Chabad yeshiva. Like, of course you go to our meistit, right? And I, I understand why people would do that. I understand why people would think that that's the right thing to do. I get it. But, like, that's all on paper in many ways, right?

14:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. Sure.

14:46 Speaker 2 In real life, like, my friends are going here. My, my parents wanted me to hang out with my friends.

14:51 Speaker 1 Exactly.

14:52 Speaker 2 My parents wanted me to have a, a, a healthy childhood, and in many ways, if my parents wanted me to go to Chabad yeshiva, they were kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Like, like, do we encourage y- encourage our son not to have friends and be, be this lone?

15:06 Speaker 1 Hundred percent.

15:06 Speaker 2 Right? Talk a little about that.

15:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I th- I think people think it's very black and white, and I think, like I said, you know, especially the older generation. I think today so much of this conversation, you know, is not relevant 'cause I think, you know, you know, we see parents today are so much more open-minded, and the world is so much smaller, and between the internet and people being able to get guidance and all that stuff. I'd say before, you know, today, if you have a question about your kids or something, you know, you either speak to a professional or you, or you Google it, right? I mean, it's just, it's that simple. In those days it wasn't that simple. So, you know, if, if, if your child or someone wasn't going exactly down the road that you thought they would be going, et cetera, what do you do? You know? And I think we thought that everyone in those days especially, I think, you know, the world that I came from, and probably similar with you, I think everyone thought that all the kids were gonna come out the same, you know?

15:50 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

15:50 Speaker 1 And that, um, it was, you know, cookie cutter, you know. Your parents were shluchim, everyone was gonna go on shlichus and, you know, live in T-Timbuktu, you know? And then, um, obviously today that's not the reality. Um, but on the flip side is, you know, and I don't know if you wanted to get into this a bit later, but the crazy part is over the last 25 years since I've actually, you know, um, I, I watch a lot of the Rebbe's videos and I, you know, read as much as I can, and the crazy thing is the Rebbe was so clear to all the businessmen and to everybody else that, you know, that everyone's a shliach. And in those days I don't think... I certainly wasn't taught like that, you know?

16:28 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

16:28 Speaker 1 If you didn't have a beard and you didn't wear a kapote and you didn't have, you know, a Chabad house, then, you know, we weren't taught that you were still a shliach. And I think it's only really, I think it's taken us many years, uh, you know, for Jem and everyone to dig up those wonderful videos, um, but it's not like once or twice. I mean, the Rebbe's told hundreds of people within, you know, with letters and videos, as we all know, that, you know, you're a shliach. The guy, the businessman's a shliach, you know? Um, the conservative rabbi is a shliach. You know, at the end of the day is, you know, he, he has a shlichus of some sort, you know? Um, so it's just, it's, you know, it's, it's all relevant and it's, you know, what can you do to make the world a better place? And, um, I think it's definitely very different than, you know, than what we thought it was when we were kids.

17:13 Speaker 2 And that speaks to you? Like that, that, that-

17:15 Speaker 1 Totally

17:15 Speaker 2 ... that idea of businessman as a shliach speaks to you?

17:18 Speaker 1 Totally. I mean, like I say, you know, my dad always laughs and says, you know, today it's, um, half businessman, half I'm working for Lubavitch. It's just like you know, and then, and all the other-

17:26 Speaker 2 Oh, about you?

17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, and about all the other, you know, thank God, great organizations and yeshivas and high schools and boards that I'm on, and, you know, it's, it's, it's in our blood. And-

17:36 Speaker 2 You're only half self-employed is what you're saying, right? Half the day, half the day, half the day you have a boss.

17:41 Speaker 1 I, I, I think so, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, you know, but it's, it, it's definitely in our blood and, you know, it's, it's, you know, w- we love helping, we love doing. We're not people that can just sit and do nothing and, you know, and it's, um, it's interesting how, you know, everyone takes their energies and d- you know, does different things with them. But, you know.

18:02 Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, you know, what you, what you just told me now reminds me of like a quip that I remember hearing when I was a kid. Like, what's the difference between a rabbi and a rebbe? Is that when a rabbi speaks in shul, everybody thinks that he's talking to the person next to him. Whereas when a rabbi talks, everyone thinks that I was talking to them.

18:19 Speaker 1 Right.

18:20 Speaker 2 But in many cases, that kind of, that kind of, uh, idea always, at least in Chabad and Lubavitch, always seems to apply in one direction. Meaning to say that when the rabbi says that he wants you to go on shlichas, he's talking to me, right? And not talking to the other guy. I have to go on shlichas. But in the other direction, like you just mentioned, where when the rabbi says a businessman can be on shlichas, we say, "No, no, he's talking to the other guy."

18:46 Speaker 1 Uh-huh.

18:46 Speaker 2 "He's not talking to me."

18:47 Speaker 1 Exactly.

18:47 Speaker 2 Right? "That's not for me." And, you know, what you're describing is a very interesting shift, which I think is very, very profound and, uh, in many ways a very positive shift, I think. I mean, I don't, I don't see how you don't see it as a positive thing where, um, people are realizing that, you know, yes, perhaps you could say that a shliach is living his entire life dedicated to this cause, but many people won't, for whatever reason, be able to make that kind of life choice. They won't be able to make that sacrifice. Uh, sometimes they want to and they can't, and sometimes they don't want to, right? Um, but what about all those other people, right? Like, what you're talking about is the rabbi's speaking to you on that level, and you don't feel like you're, uh, compromising or like on some, you know, like listening from the, from the bleachers. You're, you're very much in it, you know, being talk-being talked to by the rabbi's ideas and the rabbi's mission in your situation right now. And like I, I, I think you are right. I mean, from all the, from all I can tell, I'm younger than you, but from all I can tell, that's a very recent shift of probably the past few years of people realizing that, wait a second, when the rabbi talked about businessmen on shlichas, he wasn't only talking about non-Lubavitchers. He's talking about Lubavitchers as well.

20:00 Speaker 1 Sure.

20:00 Speaker 2 Especially as more and more Lubavitchers go into business, um, that becomes more of a reality.

20:05 Speaker 1 Yep. I mean, the, uh, you know, just the whole fact, like I say, you know, thank God I've made many bar mitzvahs in my life, uh, from business. And yeah, so shlichim are doing it every day or have the opportunity, and some of them don't have the opportunity every day. But, you know, I was in San Antonio, and I made a bar mitzvah with the, uh, the vice president of Hawthorne Hotels when I was actually out there doing business with him like five, six years ago, and I have the picture. And, uh, this guy never had a bar mitzvah. He went to shul for many years through Reform Temple, and, um, had the opportunity to, uh, to tefillin on with him and, um, made his bar mitzvah. Um-

20:38 Speaker 2 And it's very possible that a shliach wouldn't be able to reach this guy.

20:41 Speaker 1 No. Uh, very... Most probably.

20:43 Speaker 2 Right.

20:43 Speaker 1 'Cause he was very comfortable in his temple-

20:45 Speaker 2 Right

20:45 Speaker 1 ...um, for many years, so he had no reason to go and search for anywhere, anywhere else. You know-

20:49 Speaker 2 Right

20:49 Speaker 1 ...he was a very happy guy.

20:50 Speaker 2 And not a very accessible guy.

20:52 Speaker 1 No.

20:52 Speaker 2 Right.

20:52 Speaker 1 And then, uh, if, if you want me, there's one more story on that, just on that line that I never forget. Um, about five, six years ago, uh, there was about fifteen attorneys in a very big negotiation in a deal that we had bought, and we were getting bought out, and it was a very, very big transaction, and I was just a small piece of it, and I was one of the guys running the show, running the transaction. And I wasn't comfortable with a lot of the partners in it. There was too many people in it and too many players that I wasn't comfortable with, and I just wanted to be bought out. And, um, two of the partners, myself and someone else, wanted to be bought out, and we're at this table, big table like this in a big law firm in the city. Uh, I don't know how much, uh, these people were getting paid per the hour. You know, if you think there was about fifteen people around the table, most of them attorneys. And, um, and we're just talking and, you know, there was... This wasn't a litigation or anything like that. We just-- I wanted to go. And, um, we're towards the end of the settlement, uh, you know, coming-- Not settlement, excuse me. We're at, towards the end of the, uh, transaction, and we're coming to a number that everyone's comfortable with. And, um, I don't know if you say this in po-podcast or not, but why not? Um,

21:58 Speaker 1 and I think we're down to the last ten to fifteen thousand dollars. And, um, I wasn't getting it, and I really wanted that ten to fifteen thousand dollars. I'd given up a lot more on the upside that I think my shares were worth, and, um, I really had. And I knew at the end of the day, I wanted that ten to fifteen thousand. When you have a number in your head, you know, and you make that number, you want it. That was it. I wasn't getting it. It was the middle of the summer. And I remember because I had my, my, um, my wheelie case on with me. You know, I'm in Long Branch in the summers, and I'm in Cedarhurst in the winters. I was coming back to Cedarhurst overnight to go back to my office, and this was in the city. So I had my wheelie in the corner, and I'm looking, and I don't usually have my wheelie with my tefillin on me. I don't. And, um, but I'm looking, the wheelie's looking at me, and I'm looking at the wheelie, and I know my tefillin are in there. And I said, "I know there's some guys here that definitely probably never put tefillin on," et cetera.

22:50 Speaker 2 And they're all Jewish.

22:51 Speaker 1 Um, most of them were Jewish.

22:53 Speaker 2 Right.

22:53 Speaker 1 I don't know if all of them, but most of them were Jewish. Uh, I kid you not, at one point, I just said, "You know what? Here's the deal. I'm gonna take that number. I'll give up that ten or fifteen thousand dollars." And I went like this, and said, "All you guys are putting on tefillin." And they all took a step back. I don't think they were expecting from me, like you said, the guy without the beard and, you know, the businessman. And they all shook their heads and said, "Yes." I ended up taking them one by one, and at least one of them had never put tefillin on before, so I made a bar mitzvah for at least one. Uh, it could've been a second one also. But it's, you know, it's a crazy story, and it's a sta-story that stays with me. And it's, you know, I gave up money that I definitely, you know, think that I should have got. Um, but I felt better about it. I, I did. I felt that, you know what? There was a purpose, and, um, there was a big purpose giving up this money, and I made peace with it.

23:45 Speaker 2 The world, the world's most expensive bar mitzvah, ladies and gentlemen.

23:49 Speaker 1 I think so. I think so.

23:51 Speaker 2 Five town's got nothing on you.

23:53 Speaker 1 One joke. One joke. True story.

23:56 Speaker 2 But I, I do wanna just explore a little bit further because, you know, it, it does seem, which is really beautiful to hear and very encouraging for me to hear, um, because this is something I struggle with myself. You know, maybe the beard outwardly is not a concern for me, but, you know, that, that only covers up what, you know, what, what conflicts I have inside. And, you know, I, I was on shlichas myself after I got married.

24:23 Speaker 1 Right.

24:24 Speaker 2 Um, and then for whatever reason, I kind of, kind of, uh, transitioned out of it. Um, although I still do a lot of work with shlichim and a lot of things that I do that I would consider to be part of the work of shlichas, but that's not my, that's not my central identity at all anymore. Um, so it's definitely something that I think about. And, you know, do I still have a, um, do it-- Does shlichas or m-or shlichas really or a fatzah, however you wanna describe it, does it still play a role in my life? And, uh, you know, I'm gonna be honest with you in the other direction, where, you know, a couple months ago, um, I was filming somebody for a project for a client. Um, th-the project, the project, uh, was not for a Chabad house. The client was not Lubavitcher. Um, but I went to film someone on their behalf, and he was an older Jewish lawyer, talking about lawyers. I f- was filming him in his home. And, you know, at the end of the interview, there was in my head this kind of, kind of debate going on. Like, it's very possible this man hasn't ever put on tefillin. Maybe he put on tefillin once. Like, I, you know, I don't know. Should I ask him? And, um, you know, there was no happy ending. I, I, I kinda left it. I, I was- wasn't sure what my place was there. I, you know, it wasn't, it

25:48 Speaker 2 wasn't like my client.

25:50 Speaker 3 Sure.

25:50 Speaker 2 It wasn't... I was there on behalf of someone, you know. Do I, do I get involved? Do I not? We got along very well. It's very possible that I could've gotten it by. Like, I don't feel it would've been terribly inappropriate. I could've done it, but I chose not to. And to be honest with you, I was conflicted about it afterwards-

26:05 Speaker 3 Yep

26:05 Speaker 2 ... you know. Um, so it's something that I, that I struggle with. It's not... But the reason I say that is because you seem to be, in a very beautiful way, very much at peace with it. And you're, you know... I guess my, my question would be: Was, was this something...? 'Cause you s- you mentioned earlier the idea of taking a different direction while still keeping the Rabbi and Chabad as your anchor. Was that something that you felt right then, or was it a little bit more of a conflict then that has kind of become more peaceful with time? Is it something that you've reconciled with?

26:38 Speaker 3 Yeah. I definitely think it was more of a conflict then, absolutely. Like you said, especially after, you know, the Rabbi's passing and, you know, Gemilut Chassidim. Um, I think nobody really knew what was really going on and how to feel and how to react, et cetera. Um, and again, I was a teenager just wanting to have fun . You know? That was, it was that simple.

26:53 Speaker 2 Right.

26:54 Speaker 3 I'm not gonna say it any other way. Um, but, um, yeah, over the years I definitely, you know, reconnected definitely, you know, to my Lubavitch roots. Um, but like you say, on a, on a level that I can actually, you know, relate to, um, you know, with lesser guilt and in a way that, you know, hopefully in a positive way, you know, that I can do positive things. Like I said, is there, is there sometimes, you know, like you said, uh, you know, that a similar story with the tefillin, and I don't have my tefillin on me, and do I feel bad sometimes? Sometimes I do feel a little bit bad, and then I say to myself, "You know what, Shalom? But you know what? You're at work, and, um, I'm running around the country, and I'm, you know, doing real estate deals and real estate transactions, and that's what, you know, I think I'm supposed to be doing." And thankfully, because of that, I'm able to help, you know, my parents and, uh, and, and shluchim, and, uh, plenty of other shluchim, whoever I can help, and, um, plenty other yeshivas and, um, and, and or- Jewish organizations throughout the world, and that's something that I really cherish and love to do. And I think that's really, you know, my, my main emphasis. And like I said, you know, when I can do those other things, I do. So sometimes do I feel bad? Like, you know, if I see you again and say,

28:01 Speaker 3 "You know what? It'd be really nice if I had my tefillin right now," or something like that, yes. But, um, I, I think, you know... I don't think it's always so, you know, um, so c-, um, you know, so, um, cut, you know?

28:15 Speaker 2 Right. H-How, how would you say, um... You said that you came back to, you came back to Lubavitch. Um-

28:24 Speaker 3 No, no, I, I, I wanna be very careful-

28:26 Speaker 2 Okay

28:26 Speaker 3 ... not that I ever left. I think it's-

28:27 Speaker 2 All right. So that's what I wanted to ask you.

28:28 Speaker 3 Sorry. No.

28:29 Speaker 2 Did you leave and come back?

28:30 Speaker 3 Absolutely not.

28:30 Speaker 2 Was, were you always convinced that you were gonna come back? Like-

28:32 Speaker 3 I, I, I didn't really know what Lubavitch was. You know, to me, Lubavitch was that every Friday night you have a lot of people at your house. You know, we did everything for the community. We had, you know, um, ran day camp for two hundred kids. We were just involved in every single Yom Tov. And, you know, thank God we were a very popular family, I'm going to be honest. And, um, you know, we were the ones that got things done. We're the ones that really, you know, Scottish jury, you know, thrived on what we did as a family. Um, obviously with my parents being, you know, the anchors of it. Um, but we were a family doing it. Um, so, you know, I really didn't understand and, you know, I, I didn't really have the patience to understand at that point, you know, understand the Rebbe's actual, you know, learnings and, you know, teachings and stuff like that, that I obviously I've, I've, I've, you know, been able to learn more and watch more and read more, you know, over the last many years. So I, I would definitely not say that it was that I left Lubavitch. It was more that I didn't really understand much about it. And to me, you know, Lubavitch was, you know, like I said, was like, you know, kiruv, but I didn't really understand all the other stuff that, um, that came along with it. You know, the, the Hasidus part and, you know, different stuff and,

29:39 Speaker 3 you know, connecting to Hashem and all those other things that really I really knew nothing about.

29:43 Speaker 2 You're saying because you grew up on shlichus, and I think, I think it's also like anybody listening to this who grew up on shlichus will right in- right away know what we're talking about.

29:51 Speaker 3 Right.

29:51 Speaker 2 Especially if you grew up in a more kind of faraway town, right? Not like a suburb. With all respect to shluchim-

29:57 Speaker 3 Sure

29:57 Speaker 2 ... in suburbs of New York and, and... But if, if you're in driving distance, if your kids can go to school at a, at a in-town school, we're not talking about that kind of Chabad house.

30:07 Speaker 3 No.

30:07 Speaker 2 Right? We're talk-

30:08 Speaker 3 Exactly right.

30:09 Speaker 2 There, there are levels to this game.

30:11 Speaker 3 Yep.

30:11 Speaker 2 And, um, you know, when, when you grow up in a... Especially back then when there was no internet, right? But even today, when you grow up in a, in a, in a city where your entire lived experience, right? Forget about the things that you can see on screens.

30:24 Speaker 3 Yep.

30:24 Speaker 2 But the people in front of you and the world around you, the real world around you is, is outside, is not Lubavitch, and then your family. That's it.

30:33 Speaker 3 Exactly.

30:33 Speaker 2 Lubavitch literally begins and ends Excuse me.

30:37 Speaker 3 Sure.

30:40 Speaker 2 Lubavitch begins and ends, you know, at, at, at your home. Like, that's, that, that's, that's the entire space of it, and that's the entire idea of it. It's very hard to picture, like, any Lubavitch outside of shlichus.

30:54 Speaker 3 Right.

30:54 Speaker 2 It's like, it's like shlichus or bust. Like Right?

30:57 Speaker 3 And I think that's the way it was, you know? For, for many years, again, obviously you had the Crown Heights community and, you know, those people felt that they were doing shlichus too because they were hosting people. We want, you know, to come see the Rebbe on Yom Tov and, you know, Tisha B'Av and all that stuff was obviously a big deal. But if you weren't, you know, centered in Crown Heights doing that And you weren't really a shliach, you know? Like, I think where you're going, what you're trying to say, I think where were you really going at that time? Am I wrong?

31:24 Speaker 2 Right. What would you say, you know, 'cause w- going back to the beginning of the conversation with the Shabbos meal and, and the, and the Shabbos table, um, what would you say is something that you miss most about, about shlichas? About that, about that experience and that, that kind of home?

31:45 Speaker 3 So, you know, um, I think like you say, you know, some of the Shabbos stuff, you know, and, and, you know, being so accessible to, you know, so many different types of people, um, always and, um, you know, like I said, our house was always a central station, and still is to this day, you know, for Scottish Jewry. Um, so some of that, but I have to say on the, on the flip side of that, you know, thank God I've created so much of it, you know, with Betsy and our family. Um, you know, uh, especially the last 12 years, I've been in Long Branch for the last, uh, 12 years for summers, and thank God for the last four years for Rosheinim Keeper, and I, I feel that's the closest thing to Scotland in my home. Uh, the type of people, I, you know, I tell, uh, um, Leibish Shapiro all the time, and, uh, um, it, it, it, it really it feels like, really like home. It's very similar type of people. Um, the culture is very similar, and, um-

32:38 Speaker 2 Deal and Glasgow. I never-

32:40 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah

32:40 Speaker 2 ... I would never think that they're th- that they're similar.

32:42 Speaker 3 I know. I know. Like I said, the, you know-

32:45 Speaker 2 The weather's a-

32:45 Speaker 3 The weather's a... I was gonna say the weather's a lot better, and h- it's nice having the beach across the street. No question.

32:49 Speaker 2 And, and, and a bit of sun.

32:51 Speaker 3 And a bit of sun. Um, but people-wise, you know, the many people from, you know, the conservative and the reform that have, that have come to our shul over the years, and, uh, Betsy and I have them over on Friday nights and very often and, uh, it's just, you know, in ter sukka. And I always did also over here in Cedar as also, but on a smaller level 'cause I think we were, you know, there was less people here than we were y- than we had access to, um, of that type of people that I had, you know, in my house growing up. But like I said, over the last, you know, six, seven years, it's been really just nice to reconnect with that part of it, uh, in a bigger way.

33:23 Speaker 2 Oh, so you're saying you don't miss it because you've recreated it?

33:27 Speaker 3 I would say obviously in a lesser way. I'm not, you know-

33:29 Speaker 2 Right

33:29 Speaker 3 ... again, I'm, I, I do try to work, uh, Monday to Friday, and I'm traveling around the country a lot-

33:34 Speaker 2 Right

33:34 Speaker 3 ... um, between my real estate and my singing, all that stuff. But, uh, when I am here, yes.

33:38 Speaker 2 But, but what is it that you're, that you're looking to recreate? What, why, like what, what is it, what is that that you're tr- is it something that you want your kids to experience? Is it something, is it something that you wanted to have? Like what were your... I mean, is it... 'Cause it sounds like it's more than just I, "I like to have guests," which is also-

33:53 Speaker 3 Right

33:53 Speaker 2 ... a beautiful part of Yiddishkeit, the chasidism-

33:55 Speaker 3 Right

33:55 Speaker 2 ... and so on. But you're, you're talking about it as like almost a direct natural continuation of growing up in Glasgow. So what is that, what, what is that that you're trying to-

34:05 Speaker 3 Sure. I think it's, I, I think it's being able to share, you know, the beauty of, of Judaism, um, the Shabbos and stuff like that, you know, the things that really were, you know, beautiful in the house. I think it's trying to recreate that and like you said, for ourselves and to show to our kids.

34:21 Speaker 2 Right.

34:22 Speaker 3 And to obviously to share it with others.

34:24 Speaker 2 Right.

34:24 Speaker 3 Which is the main thing.

34:25 Speaker 2 Right. Yeah, I was just telling my wife on the way over that like, like when I, when I think about back, back at home in Hong Kong, you know, the Shabbos meal was more than just... I, I mean, it's... trying to find the exact words for it, but it w- it was, it was, it was a very important moment. I think that's looking back, that's what it was. Like the people at the table, this was a very important moment for them. It was not something that they took for granted. It was not something that was just part of life. There was like a, almost like a seriousness, but without it being solemn, but like, you know, whether it was out-of-town businessmen who were there, and especially back in the day, they didn't have internet connecting them back to their families. The whole week they're away from their families. They're really in, they're completely dislocated, and anybody that's traveled for business, as I know you do a lot, it's, it's rough. Even today with internet.

35:15 Speaker 3 Hundred percent.

35:16 Speaker 2 The second you're not at home, you feel vulnerable. You feel, you feel, you feel alienated on some level. There's no question.

35:23 Speaker 3 Sure.

35:23 Speaker 2 Imagine back then on the other side of the world. And so for them, the, even these frum businessmen, just the fact that they're at a Shabbos table is like a restoration of a normalcy for a moment, and there was an importance to that. There were people who hadn't ever been by a Shabbos table before. Like of course they can't take it for granted. I remember-

35:37 Speaker 3 Sure

35:37 Speaker 2 ... people looking at each other like, like mesmerized, like, "What's going on?" and "How beautiful is this?" and so on. And like in some ways, that's what, that's what I, that's what I miss. You know? I, I miss it like my kids don't get to see that. And you know, I, I guess what I have come to realize, although I haven't lived up to this yet at least, is that at, you know, when you're not on shlichas in some ways you have to borrow those lessons from the, from the shlichas and somehow translate into your own life. Like Shabbos meal should be that level of importance for me, and my kids should sense that in me and in them and in the whole family. Like, like we don't need to necessarily have people that aren't observant at our table or travelers from out- outside the country to have that. When we have the opportunity to have those kind of people over, great.

36:31 Speaker 3 Right.

36:31 Speaker 2 Right? But when we don't, 'cause it's not our role and that's not something that, that I, you know, it's not, it's not part of my life, if I'm gonna be honest. You know, when we don't have that, we still have to take those lessons and those experiences and somehow figure out how to bring it out and carry it forward for our kids and for ourselves.

36:52 Speaker 3 I think you're absolutely right. I think there's also another part today, um, you know, if you don't mind me saying, but I'm just saying, you know, um-

36:58 Speaker 2 Have at it, man. You're-

36:59 Speaker 3 Yeah. You know-

36:59 Speaker 2 It's your, it's your show.

37:00 Speaker 3 Thank you. Um, you know, to look at all the kids that, you know, that don't feel so connected today. You know, there are, as we call them, FFBs, right? From, from birth.

37:10 Speaker 2 Right.

37:11 Speaker 3 Um, and how much love they want, you know? And Betsy and I, we end up having so many of, you know, between my singing and stuff like that, and people that, you know, end up coming, and some people like, you know, musicians and stuff like that, and everyone's on their journey. And I say it's not black and white today, but, you know, having someone that's never seen a Shabbos meal, you know, that's wonderful and that's great. But there's also plenty other people today, you know, that they're on their own journey that also just want to see some normality and want to, you know, be by Shabbos dinner and with a family and with kids and just connect and just speak to somebody. And that's why I've, you know, the, the older I get, I'm tr-- I, you know, I work on myself a lot, you know, between all my other crazy things and my working out and, and my voice training that I do seriously twice a week and, um, uh, and everything else that I try to do for my mental health. But I, I really try, you know, let's get rid of the guilt. You know? Guilt doesn't do anybody any good.

38:06 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:06 Speaker 3 You know?

38:06 Speaker 2 Very interesting.

38:07 Speaker 3 And, and, and again, it's a, it's, it's a work in progress every single day.

38:13 Speaker 2 Talk about that a little bit. What, what guilt are you referring to specifically? Is it like a Jewish guilt, a Lubavitch guilt?

38:17 Speaker 3 I, I, I call it the Lubavitch Jewish guilt. I think, I think we get a double. I think most people get the Jewish guilt, and we get the Lubavitch Jewish guilt.

38:25 Speaker 2 Describe.

38:25 Speaker 3 Um, look at, look at, you know, my siblings, you know, we s- we speak about it often. You know, the Rebbe had very, had, has had very high expectations.

38:35 Speaker 2 Mm.

38:35 Speaker 3 Um, you know, there's no, no, no way about it. You know, you can, you know, um, call it any way you want. He had very high expectations. Um, and he definitely wanted to push everyone, you know, to get the most out of them that he could. Um, and I think just, you know, we were brought up in that time and, you know, especially I think in his, you know, later years before his passing, you know, when at 80 he took on all those projects and at 90 he, you know, took on more projects. Uh, this is with a man who was, you know, you know, the giant of this generation. Um, and I think he wanted, you know, to get that across to everyone. But I think definitely, you know, a lot of our parents, uh, communities didn't know exactly how to channel that down and, you know, okay, so now how do we give that over to our kids in a healthy way? And again, like we've said, we, like we always say, you know, we're only, uh, saying good things. Uh, you know, this is not about anything, you know, God forbid, the other way. But it's really just about channeling, you know, the, the good energy.

39:40 Speaker 2 Right.

39:40 Speaker 3 And, um, you know, but there's... Is there a Jewish guilt? Is there a Jew- a Lubavitch Jewish guilt? Yes. So I think it's really just, um, being able to-

39:49 Speaker 2 Right

39:49 Speaker 3 ... be comfortable with yourself and, um, and be able to, you know, do good things with it and, uh, try not to let it get in the way too much.

39:57 Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it, it's, it's, it's first of all to your point of, of, like, not bashing. You know, in many ways when you bash this older generation, besides it, um, besides it being unfair because, like, a lot of times you have information now that they didn't have at their hands back then.

40:11 Speaker 3 Exactly.

40:12 Speaker 2 It's also a deflection. Like, okay, what do you, what, what, what's, how's that gonna help? Like, it's many ways, like, I don't wanna do, I don't wanna change anything, so I'm just gonna bash, bash backwards. And it's like, you know, it's good to, it's good to be critical about it and to really think, like, what went wrong? You know?

40:27 Speaker 3 Right.

40:27 Speaker 2 How can I improve? Or, you know, at least how do I think I can improve? Maybe I'm wrong.

40:31 Speaker 3 Or not even what, what went wrong or what changed, you know?

40:33 Speaker 2 What changed? How can I improve? And maybe I'm wrong.

40:35 Speaker 3 Yeah.

40:35 Speaker 2 But, but the idea that, like, you can't think about how things can be improved is wrong, and you should. That's how you should think.

40:42 Speaker 3 Right.

40:43 Speaker 2 But, but that doesn't mean that you're bashing on them. That means you're building-

40:46 Speaker 3 Hundred percent

40:46 Speaker 2 ... on them, right? And you're, you're taking the good hopefully and trying to improve on it and iterate it in a way that makes sense for you and for your kids and for the people around you. So that's number one.

40:55 Speaker 3 Yeah.

40:55 Speaker 2 But yeah, to your point about Jewish guilt, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, you know, it's something that I think about and talk about a lot, which is that, you know, there's, there's this challenge precisely because Lubavitch became so Rebbe-centric and, like, and, and, and we kind of all measure ourselves against the Rebbe. Like, there isn't really any other measuring point. Like, there isn't, like, some Chassid, like, or we could be like... No, it's like it's all-

41:22 Speaker 3 Right

41:22 Speaker 2 ... it's all around the Rebbe. Whatever you say about that, like, that automatically leads to people feeling very, very small. It's like measuring your height every day against Mount Everest.

41:33 Speaker 3 Right.

41:33 Speaker 2 It's like you're never not gonna feel short.

41:35 Speaker 3 That's my point.

41:36 Speaker 2 Right.

41:36 Speaker 3 It's not-

41:36 Speaker 2 You're always gonna feel short. And, and, and the problem is, and this goes back to what you were saying earlier which, which is a point that I absolutely love, like the Rebbe talking to me as a businessman suddenly, is that, like, you always saw videos of the Rebbe talking to business people who very often weren't religious, and it was with a smile.

41:53 Speaker 3 Yep.

41:53 Speaker 2 And I was... They came away encouraged. They didn't come away feeling miserable-

41:57 Speaker 3 Exactly

41:57 Speaker 2 ... about who they were and, and like, "Look how, look how lowly I am." Because I think if you had to choose one thing, and again, I'm just me. I'm talking for myself.

42:07 Speaker 3 Sure.

42:07 Speaker 2 Okay? But if you had to choose, like, what was the Rebbe's, like, core belief about people and about Yidden was that they should use their potential, and they should not, they should not be miserable. Like, they should not, they should, they... What I mean by that, it's not just about, like, feel good about yourself, but more like, like, people should be, people should be humming. They should be, they should be energized. They should be full of energy. They should be full on, like, fireballs. That's what it should be, right? And if you're miserable, then by definition, you're not, you're not humming well. Your, your, your engine is not humming. Something is wrong. Something is making noise.

42:45 Speaker 3 That's right.

42:45 Speaker 2 Right? And like, when the Rebbe would see someone who was, who, who, who had, who had their identity, had their kind of life formed in some way, he, it always seemed like he would tell them, "Great. Do better with it. Do the best you can with it."

43:00 Speaker 3 That's right.

43:00 Speaker 2 Like, optimize it, and of course, add in Yiddishkeit with it, right?

43:04 Speaker 3 That's correct.

43:04 Speaker 2 Try to go near Yiddishkeit. That message, at least when I was growing up, and it sounds like when you were growing up, did not filter down to us.

43:11 Speaker 3 Yep.

43:12 Speaker 2 We were like, "Okay, that's for them. For you, here's this list of impossible standards."

43:17 Speaker 3 That's right. That's exactly... I think you, you nailed it. You nailed it. Um, there was us, like you said, there was standards for us, and then there was the standards for everybody else that you, like you said, do the best you can sort of thing.

43:30 Speaker 2 Right.

43:30 Speaker 3 But I think the Rebbe really told everyone that, you know, like- You know, a lot of people, you know, may not want to discuss, but I'm just saying, you know, you, you, you know that very famous video with the Rebbe, with the conservative, with the Reform rabbi, and he said he wants to re- he wants to retire. And the Rebbe said, "No. I don't want you to retire." And if you think, like, what a big picture how the Rebbe looked to that, I mean, like, you know, in, in our small minds, Reform, Conservatism, sorry, I forget which one it was, but I'm sure neither of them was exactly was the Shofar what the, what the Rebbe wanted us to go by. We obviously know that.

44:02 Speaker 2 And we wouldn't even call them a rabbi.

44:04 Speaker 3 Correct. Correct. Um, but the Rebbe obviously knew that this person was obviously either the best person to do that job. You know, how many, how many stories do you hear now, you know, later on years of those people that sent people to real yeshivas? I don't know who this guy was, you know, um, but I'm sure there was more than one that went past the Rebbe, and the Rebbe told him similar things. But what did the Rebbe do? He empowered them.

44:27 Speaker 2 Right.

44:27 Speaker 3 And he said, "No, you're not, you know, I don't want you to retire right now, you know. Keep leading your community." And, um, obviously, that's just, you know, the... He knew that the Rebbe has now told him to do that, then obviously, it's, you know, it was an empowerment to the guy.

44:40 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

44:40 Speaker 3 Um, and I think so many stories like that, but I think what you just said is take the guilt out, um, work on it. It's, um, it's definitely a work in process. Um, and realize your potential, exactly what the Rebbe told so many people. Um, and like I say, you know, the shluchim are absolutely incredible and, um, you know, like I, I, I look at my dad, thank God, um, in Scotland fifty-four years, everywhere he goes, whether it's on vacation over here in New York or whether he's in Scotland, he's going to the mall, he takes this tefillin with him in his hand. Um, is that something I can do or I'm gonna do right now? No. Um, you know, it's, uh, just not where I'm holding. Um, but do I admire him for doing it? Absolutely. You know, um, he's a soldier. Um, and the Rebbe definitely made soldiers, but like I said, he expected a lot from his people. Um, you know, at the, uh... There's a famous, there's a famous story, and I heard it a few times. Um, I don't remember. Let's see if I remember all the details, but you'll probably remember better than me. Um, but someone went to the Rebbe very early on and said, um... And the Rebbe, they were discussing where to go on shlichus, going back many, many, many ear- in the very early years. And I think the person said, "I need to s- let me speak to my mother," or, "Let me speak

46:00 Speaker 3 to my wife." I think he said, "Let me speak to my mother." It's like, do you know the story I'm talking about?

46:04 Speaker 2 I mean, I think there's a number of stories. Uh, uh, I mean, the story I heard was about his wife, but it could have been-

46:08 Speaker 3 It could be the wife. The wife makes more sense. The wife makes more sense

46:10 Speaker 2 ... could have been the, the mother, yeah.

46:11 Speaker 3 It was one of them.

46:12 Speaker 2 All right.

46:12 Speaker 3 And the Rebbe basically said, "It's over."

46:15 Speaker 2 Right.

46:15 Speaker 3 And there was no more negotiating.

46:17 Speaker 2 Right. Right, right.

46:17 Speaker 3 And again, he still remained a Hasid in, I believe he still lived in Crown Heights. I don't know who it is and, um, but-

46:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean-

46:24 Speaker 3 But no, but that's a, that's a, it's a big story.

46:25 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

46:25 Speaker 3 What I'm saying, like, meaning the Rebbe knew for that post, like to actually be on shlichus and actually, you know, go to Scotland, go to Hong Kong, you know, go to China. Like you said, we're not talking about, you know, being shluchim in the, the boroughs and stuff like that who obviously have different challenges, but that's not what we're talking about. The Rebbe knew that he needed a certain type of person. And like I said, it's like he did expect a lot of them. He absolutely did. And you know, uh, obviously, I think, you know, the Rebbe, the Rebbe was obviously brilliant and, um, um, he knew what he was doing, obviously, and look what he's built. Um, but he knew that that's what he needed. You know, um, he needed real soldiers for that. But to think of it any other way, I think is, you know, it would be wrong. So, you know, going back to that, I think, you know, we were brought up with that, so I think, you know, we always thought that that's, you know, like, like you were saying, I think our parents all thought, you know, ultimately, that's probably what we would all do. Um, but then, you know, if you didn't go down, you know, that exact path and you went a little bit of a different direction, I think you see... I think what we're both, you know, coming to this conclusion is, tell me if you agree, is that, you know, we see that

47:32 Speaker 3 the Rebbe did, you know, um, accept, and more than accept, empower so many other people, not just the shluchim that I think we thought we were younger. Like I say, the businessmen and the jeweler-

47:44 Speaker 2 Right

47:44 Speaker 3 ... and the, you know, the guy who did real estate and, you know.

47:47 Speaker 2 Right.

47:47 Speaker 3 And, and the regular, the regular, and the teachers and, you know, and he empowered everyone and told them, "Look how many school teachers." He told them, "The power you have, you know, to be with the children every day and the lessons you can give them." And, and I think that's what we have to, you know, take all that good stuff.

48:03 Speaker 2 Yeah. Absolutely. I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, um, it's something that I, I remember now that you're talking, I remember thinking about this when back when I was in yeshiva and very convinced that I was gonna go on shlichus, which I ultimately did. Um, but I remember hearing this story when I was in Argentina about, um, Berel Baumgarten, which was... Berel Baumgarten was a Hasid of the Frierdiker Rebbe, but he was, he was a, he, he, he was very close with the Rebbe already, I think, before Yitzhak. And you know, Yitz-- Frierdiker Rebbe passes away, and I don't know if the story took place before the next Yitzhak when Rebbe officially took over or after. Uh, I, I don't know if it happened before or after the Rebbe officially took over, but it was in that time. And Berel Baumgarten suddenly, like many others, went from being friendly and like warm, you know, respectfully friendly with the Rebbe or the Ramash at the time to being a Hasid of the Rebbe, right? All of a sudden, there was a distance. And there was a story that I heard where like the Rebbe met Berel Baumgarten outside 770, and he gave his hand for like Shalom Aleichem, and Berel Baumgarten wouldn't take the hand. And, or maybe the story was that someone gave the hand to the, to the Rebbe to say Shalom Aleichem, Berel Baumgarten like pushed the hand away. Either way, the Rebbe extended his hand and Berel Baumgarten didn't.

49:24 Speaker 2 And the Rebbe looks at him and says, "You also?" Like you're... And to me, there's... Why is it, why I find that story so, so powerful because there's almost a tragic, and tragic in it with a capital T. Like, like there's a tragic nature to, to this whole story, which is, you know, like when you're in yeshiva, you're told, "Look, when the people came for dollars, regular people, the Rebbe smiled at them 'cause that was one side of the Rebbe, and that was for people that aren't Hasidim. But for Bachurim, the Rebbe was very serious, and you have to be serious."

49:57 Speaker 3 Yes.

49:58 Speaker 2 And you're told that like that's, that's a ma- that's a matter of necessity. Like, like those people the Rebbe was like kind of bringing in, and he's showering them with love, and you, the Rebbe expects more.

50:08 Speaker 3 Right.

50:08 Speaker 2 And perhaps that's true. But the story of Berel Baumgarten shows me that it hurt the Rebbe. Like the, the Rebbe was hurt by it. Like, at the end of the day, we cannot forget that, like, like, there, there's, there's, there's distance, and severity is hard. It's rough.

50:26 Speaker 3 Sure.

50:26 Speaker 2 It, it's not, it's not pleasant.

50:28 Speaker 3 No.

50:28 Speaker 2 Right? I mean, the same way that when you discipline your child, very often you feel, and very often you're right, it's absolutely necessary. Right? Right? Like, it wasn't just me losing my temper. Like, my, my child did something wrong, and I need to teach them a lesson before they find out from someone else.

50:44 Speaker 3 Right.

50:45 Speaker 2 But it doesn't make it pleasant.

50:47 Speaker 3 No.

50:48 Speaker 2 And there's something about, you know, the... this necessity that seems to be, seems to be correct to say it that way because that's the way the Rebbe interacted with Bachurim and with Chassidim, a little bit, much more distanced than, at least outwardly, than to people that weren't, quote-unquote, "Chassidim." But it, it's not a happy story. It's not, it's not a, even a pleasant story. And it seems like from that story with Berel Vengarten that it's, uh, it's, it's sad and, a-and-and-and it's... there's something, there's something sad about it. There's something unfortunate about it. And what you're talking to is, I don't think it's that it's time now to say, "Okay, you know, let's, let's sit at a Klumzits with the Rebbe all of a sudden, and just you are good for whoever you are-"

51:37 Speaker 3 Right.

51:37 Speaker 2 "... and, and the Rebbe's now a self-help guru."

51:39 Speaker 3 Yeah.

51:39 Speaker 2 And I can't stand that version of, of, of like, you know, Chassidims talking.

51:44 Speaker 3 Yeah.

51:44 Speaker 2 Where like, a lot of times you... Like I, I come, I hear a speech, uh, you know, based on a Sicha, and I'm like, "If somebody didn't know any better, they would think the Rebbe was a self-help guru who liked to wear sneakers and sit at bonfires." That's the message you're conveying, and that's wrong.

52:00 Speaker 3 Right.

52:00 Speaker 2 Right? The Rebbe saw immense potential in each person. You don't get to that potential by, by, by platitudes-

52:07 Speaker 3 No

52:07 Speaker 2 ... and by making people feel good about themselves. At the same time, though, what you're talking about is take the guilt out of it. Take the guilt out of it. The, the, the... It's, it's a fact of life that there's d- that there's gonna be distance. It's a fact of life that there's gonna be demands that we can't reach.

52:25 Speaker 3 Right.

52:25 Speaker 2 We're talking about enormous distances that can't be covered, right? The Rebbe's up here, you're down here. He's, he's demanding a lot because from where he stands, that's what needs to happen.

52:37 Speaker 3 Yep.

52:37 Speaker 2 From where you stand, that may seem impossible, and it may, in many cases, may be impossible.

52:42 Speaker 3 Right.

52:42 Speaker 2 Right? Striving to get better and striving to grow doesn't have to come with guilt. It, it's, it's a hard enough reality as it is.

52:52 Speaker 3 Hundred percent.

52:53 Speaker 2 It's a sad enough reality. I don't, I don't know if the word sad is the right thing, but it's a, it's a tough enough reality as it is. To pile on guilt on top of that is, is, is, is, is wro- is first of all unnecessary, but at this point it's counterproductive because how many people in today's world, where they have other options, are going to stick around in a life where they're just miserable and full of guilt all the time?

53:16 Speaker 3 Yep. Yeah. No, I, I absolutely agree with you. You know, I see it a lot, you know, in the yeshiva still today, you know. Um, but it's, uh, you know, some of them still haven't and, you know, and the smart ones have, you know, turned it the other way, you know. Let's make this a positive experience, you know.

53:32 Speaker 2 Right.

53:32 Speaker 3 Let's grow together.

53:33 Speaker 2 Right. It, it's so short-termed to think that, you know, we can get away with pushing guilt on boys. Like, and that they're not gonna have a chance in a few years from now to do whatever the heck they want.

53:46 Speaker 3 Hundred percent.

53:46 Speaker 2 Right? Is the goal to get your way right now, or is the goal that in five years they come back and they look back with ...

53:53 Speaker 3 They don't look at now.

53:55 Speaker 2 What?

53:55 Speaker 3 Uh, uh, it's a firsthand experience through, you know, through things I've seen the last few years through our kids, um, in education. You know, sadly, you know, some of them just, they don't look for it now, some of them.

54:06 Speaker 2 They don't, they don't look for the long term.

54:08 Speaker 3 Some of them don't, you know?

54:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

54:10 Speaker 3 Um, but, you know, on the flip side of that, the amount of growth and the amount of schools and, you know, and, um, and, um, yeshivas that we've seen over the last few years, you know, non-Lubavitch, Lubavitch, that have actually, you know, um, seen the light, as I like to say, you know, and understand, you know, this, you know, let's cater for this generation. And, you know, they're, they're, they're really making headway, so.

54:32 Speaker 2 I understand the predicament they're under because there's this feeling where there's basically a... it's a binary choice. You either, you either, you either stay very strict or you loosen, right? And you don't wanna loosen. You don't wanna loosen the standards. You either keep the standards or you loosen the standards. And I think what you're suggesting is, is that, no, it's not about loosening the standards. It's, it's about, it's about reapproaching the same standards in a different light.

55:00 Speaker 3 Right.

55:01 Speaker 2 What, what do, what, what are those standards about, right? Are those standards about, um, goals and where we wanna strive for, or are those standards minimums that if you don't hit them, there's something wrong with you? There, there is a difference.

55:14 Speaker 3 Yeah.

55:14 Speaker 2 It's not even... I'm not even gonna say it's a subtle difference. It's not subtle, right? It's a difference between a world where we are entangled and overly entangled, where we don't have our own awareness of who we are as individuals, and so we say, "If the Rebbe said it, so automatically I should do it or I can do it."

55:35 Speaker 3 Right.

55:35 Speaker 2 Right? It-- That's one world, and in that world, you can't relax the standards 'cause if you relax the standards, you're relaxing the Rebbe, and that's not gonna happen.

55:42 Speaker 3 Right.

55:42 Speaker 2 Right? There's another world where you say, "Look, there's the Rebbe and there's me."

55:46 Speaker 3 Right.

55:47 Speaker 2 And, and that doesn't mean that's we're in, we're in, we're in, uh, you know, we're, we're-

55:53 Speaker 3 At war

55:53 Speaker 2 ... in conflict.

55:54 Speaker 3 No.

55:54 Speaker 2 It means that it's a reality that the Rebbe is the Rebbe by, and by definition, I'm not a Rebbe. By definition, I am a regular person and very different-

56:03 Speaker 3 Yep

56:04 Speaker 2 ... to the Rebbe, right? And, and- His standards are up here, and my goal is to inch my way towards them, right? If, if I choose.

56:15 Speaker 3 Right.

56:15 Speaker 2 Right. But I'm s- even if I choose, I'm only gonna inch my way towards them and, and that changes everything.

56:21 Speaker 3 Yeah.

56:22 Speaker 2 But, but that takes a lot of disentangling of identity and saying, "Look, I'm okay." Like, uh, this just goes back again, again to what you were saying earlier. But, like, I'm a businessman. That's who I am.

56:33 Speaker 3 Yep.

56:33 Speaker 2 Yes. Shliach is like... That's the Rebbe kind of identity. Like-

56:37 Speaker 3 Sure

56:38 Speaker 2 ... he has no own identity-

56:39 Speaker 3 In our blood

56:39 Speaker 2 ... besides being the Rebbe soldier.

56:42 Speaker 3 Right.

56:42 Speaker 2 Like, he belongs to the army. Every step of his life is dictated by army rules and guidelines, and that's it.

56:49 Speaker 3 Okay.

56:49 Speaker 2 That's his life, right?

56:51 Speaker 3 Yep.

56:51 Speaker 2 That's his identity.

56:52 Speaker 3 Yep.

56:52 Speaker 2 He's given up his own private identity-

56:55 Speaker 3 Yes

56:55 Speaker 2 ... to be part of an army, and there's something beautiful about that.

56:57 Speaker 3 Incredible.

56:58 Speaker 2 But, but, but that's what it is. You've lost your own identity. Most people, they have their own identity, whether they've chosen or that's just what they have, right? And the question is, can you have a Rebbe with your own identity? I say emphatically yes.

57:11 Speaker 3 Absolutely, you can.

57:13 Speaker 2 Right.

57:13 Speaker 3 Um, you know, um, did you ever read the book from Leibowitz, This Man Naasan?

57:18 Speaker 2 I did not.

57:18 Speaker 3 Okay. So, you know, Leibowitz-

57:19 Speaker 2 I should read it.

57:20 Speaker 3 Yeah. Big mentor of mine. Um, my youngest son is actually named after him, Ariel Leib. Um, he sat beside me in shul for 12 years before he passed away. I took him to Scotland and England, right, six months before he passed away-

57:32 Speaker 2 Mm

57:32 Speaker 3 ... to do a speaking tour. And, um, I think, you know, he got it. You know, he never had a beard. Um, the Rebbe loved him. He loved the Rebbe. Um, you know, he got his, his brocha from the Frierdiker Rebbe, you know, him and his brother, Barrow, um, right before, you know, leaving, um, during the war, and that he really... You know, he believes that's why him and his brother survived, and then the rest of the family didn't. You know, his father begged, his father begged the Frierdiker Rebbe for a brocha for them, and he gave them. Didn't give him at first. He asked him twice. He asked him three times. It's all in this book. Um, but the bottom line is, is wonderful, successful businessman. Um, and he just managed to understand, you know, what was going on, you know. Um, was friendly with O. You know, made sure he went to a bunch of different shuls all the time, you know, to daven, and was involved with everybody community-wide, not just Lubavitch. I think that's so important. Um, and, um, loved the Rebbe like, you know, like a father. Um, but, uh, knew that he wasn't exactly like the Rebbe, and, um, he just got things done.

58:40 Speaker 2 So he was a role model for you?

58:41 Speaker 3 Big time.

58:42 Speaker 2 Did, did, did he help, did he help you kind of reconcile... 'Cause you talked about how you had to, with time, reconcile yourself with how you fit into the Rebbe's picture, let's say. Did he-- Was he, like, the inspiration?

58:55 Speaker 3 Definitely a part of it. Definitely a part of it. Like, like I said, I think it was really organically just, you know, when I came to America, and I started, you know, seeing a lot of different things and, um, you know, like I say, videos came out and, you know, the Rebbe's teachings and, um, speeches just became, you know, more familiar and more accessible. Um, so I think it just was organically, but he was definitely a part of it, absolutely. Seeing someone like hims- like himself, you know, didn't wear a kapota.

59:19 Speaker 2 Yeah.

59:19 Speaker 3 You know, wore a garto, didn't have a beard when I met him. Um, and, um, and just spoke about the Rebbe, like, with, you know, such awe. But also, you know, spoke about a business deal with the same awe. Or, you know, I don't mean to say the same awe, but you know what I'm saying? And, you know, would, uh, would, would get, you know, similar... 'cause I'm not gonna say the same. Would get a similar excitement about making a million dollars, you know, and tell me about his greatest deal that he just did, you know?

59:42 Speaker 2 Right.

59:42 Speaker 3 Um, and it was just, you know, there was, um, there was no conflict. And, you know, and, um, his family, he would be proud. He is proud. He was proud of every single one of them, you know. One's a lawyer, and you tell me one's a this, and one's a doctor, and one's going to this, and then one's going to that, and there was no conflict to him.

59:59 Speaker 2 Yeah.

59:59 Speaker 3 You know, if you're doing something to help other people, um, and you're making, you know, something out of yourself, you're, you're doing something right.

1:00:07 Speaker 2 Right. Right.

1:00:08 Speaker 3 And I think that's part of, you know, thing that sometimes we miss, and especially, you know, like I say, if, if your parents are shluchim, and a lot of people, you know, will feel bad that, you know, I didn't make it or... And, and like I said, I think it's very different. You are a little younger than me, but I think both of us are similar. We're at similar time. Um, that, um, that I think a lot of people felt, you know, like it was either they were a failure.

1:00:29 Speaker 2 Mm.

1:00:29 Speaker 3 Like I said, I never felt that, thank God. Never felt that. It was never something... You know, like I said, from a very early age that I thought I would do. Um, and to me, it was just about what am I gonna do? You know, make sure whatever I'm gonna do, God willing, with Hashem's help, it's, you know, I wanna be successful whatever I do, and whatever I do, I wanna do it right. That was more of my, you know, thing. But no question, I know so many people, um, and, you know, people today that I meet, you know, that, um, that I thought were gonna be shluchim, and they thought they were gonna be shluchim. Then I hear they're work- they're working in B&H and, you know, and they're... You know, are they happy about it? I don't think they're too happy about it. Um, really smart people. Um, but some of them don't really have another way out. You know, I think that goes back to what I was talking about before. I think we're talking about both of us. We're talking about the education part.

1:01:14 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:15 Speaker 3 That, you know, why I think it is really important to, you know, give your children the tools that, you know, even if you think they are gonna be shluchim or you want to push them and encourage them to be shluchim-

1:01:24 Speaker 2 Mm

1:01:24 Speaker 3 ... then I think that's a great thing. But if they're not, at least give them the tools to be able to fall back on something else. You know, just, you know.

1:01:31 Speaker 2 Right.

1:01:31 Speaker 3 And, and just, just... And another thing, you know, there's so many people, I don't know if you've come across this, um, that, you know, that it's, it's gr- wonderful in their 20s and their 30s. Then in their 40s, it's, you know, great, but, you know, the stress is getting a little much and, you know, the family bill, you know, the family and, you know, the bills and the tuition and all that. And they're, "You know what? Maybe I wanna do this part-time." You know, again, I'm not talking about the regular, you know, like you say, soldier running the mil shliach.

1:01:59 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:00 Speaker 3 But I'm talking maybe people in education, people that, you know, are doing different types of shlichas.

1:02:03 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:03 Speaker 3 And then all of a sudden at 40s, I mean, I think, you know, we're seeing it a lot now.

1:02:07 Speaker 2 Yeah.

1:02:08 Speaker 3 They want a change, and there's a lot of people that I know that are doing it. And it's not an easy change. You know, if they don't have the education and, you know, they have to really start from the beginning now-

1:02:17 Speaker 2 Right

1:02:17 Speaker 3 ... to, um, to make something. And let me tell you, not everyone's gonna, you know, not everyone's gonna make it in business.

1:02:22 Speaker 2 Right.

1:02:22 Speaker 3 I tell everyone that. You know, like, thank God, you know, Baruch Hashem, we have four children, and I always say like, "You know, they're not all businessmen." You know? You know, some of them are much more academic than others, some of them are more business-like than others, and thank God, you know, all our children, they all have their own personalities, and I think that's something that, thank God, we all see. And I think this generation in general, like we're talking about, we're able to see that much clearer. Um, you know, what is, what is gonna be the best for our kid? What are they actually gonna be successful in? Yes, of course, you know, God willing, we want them to be shomer Torah u'mitzvos, and we want them to be as close to the Rebbe as possible and, you know. But, um, but above all, we want them to have mental health. You're asking me personally, you know. My kids have to have mental health, be healthy people, healthy people in society, people that wanna help people in society. And, you know, if, um, you know, one decides they wanna be a little bit more Breslov and one decides they wanna be a little bit more Lubavitch, has anything changed?

1:03:16 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:17 Speaker 3 You know, that's, you know.

1:03:19 Speaker 2 Right.

1:03:19 Speaker 3 That's just my personal feelings.

1:03:21 Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't think you need to give such a disclaimer. I mean, it, it's, you're, you're, you're speaking as a father for your kids.

1:03:28 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:03:28 Speaker 2 That's the, that's, that's what you want for them.

1:03:30 Speaker 3 Yep.

1:03:31 Speaker 2 You know. Look, I don't, I don't think, I don't think you're ever going to come up with a system where everyone, where it works out for everybody, and there's always going to be a story of people who, you know, they thought it was working out for them, then they took a, then they realized they had to make a s- sharp turn, and the turn didn't work out, like, like you were describing earlier. Um-

1:03:51 Speaker 3 By the way, that happens in the regular world too.

1:03:53 Speaker 2 Right, 100%.

1:03:53 Speaker 3 Look how many lawyers, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, that-

1:03:56 Speaker 2 Yeah

1:03:56 Speaker 3 ... how many lawyers you know that went to law school, spent all that time, spent three years there, "This is not for me."

1:04:00 Speaker 2 Right. After $100,000 of student debt.

1:04:02 Speaker 3 Exactly, exactly.

1:04:02 Speaker 2 Like it's not-

1:04:02 Speaker 3 So it's not-

1:04:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no. But I think the, I think the point that I'm taking from it is that, you know, it's, it, it comes back to that idea before, where if you have only one possible identity, which is, like there's an all-encompassing identity, shlichus, and everything out of that is kind of, "We don't talk about that." Like it's just kind of under the radar, but it, it's off the map, right? So then the second it doesn't work for you, whether it doesn't work for you when you're a bachur in yeshiva, whether it doesn't work for you when you're 20 years deep into shlichus and you realize you wanna change of course, if that other side of life has been off the map as something that hasn't ever been, then you're totally unprepared for it. You're totally unprepared for it. Deeper than that, if it was never on the map in the first place, you never made a conscious choice to choose shlichus, and that's also a, a, that's a catastrophic situation because, like we all know, not everything that we choose works out. We make mistakes. We, we, we, we suffer the consequences. But it's much easier to deal with them when we made the ch- ch- when we made the choice ourselves. Like I-

1:05:11 Speaker 3 Sure

1:05:11 Speaker 2 ... I went into this business deal thinking that this was gonna happen. I knew there was risk. It backfired on me.

1:05:17 Speaker 3 Right.

1:05:17 Speaker 2 Okay, I can live with it, right? I did... I'm not a prophet. I thought it was gonna work. It didn't work out.

1:05:21 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:05:22 Speaker 2 If I went under the wrong assumptions or under, like I didn't have any, uh, due diligence, and I didn't think it through, and I didn't, I didn't, I didn't realize that there was other options open to me, and then it backfires on me, then I'm angry. And then-

1:05:34 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:05:34 Speaker 2 ... what, what, you know, what's wrong with me? And, you know, and, and, and, and now I'm also crippled from doing anything in the future. So I think that's what you're talking about.

1:05:42 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:05:43 Speaker 2 Um, you know, I, I think, I think it's very important to point out, and we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll conclude with this. I think it's very important to point out that like, you know, this, y- it sounds like almost like, "Oh, so you're, y- you know, you're, you're suggesting open-mindedness," quote-unquote, "or, or, you know, um, uh, criticizing the system or trying to, trying to open up doors that shouldn't be opened." I personally believe that there's enough emes, there's enough truth in, in the Rebbe's teachings, in Yiddishkeit in general, in Chassidus and the Rebbe's teachings in particular. There's enough truth that once that, on the other side of these questions, on the other side of these things that we think through, it, there'll be enough emes for us on the other side as well. Like-

1:06:33 Speaker 3 Yeah, absolutely

1:06:34 Speaker 2 ... right? Like, like you were talking about, you started off with this idea that like the only way to be within this pool of truth is to stay on shlichus. You kind of wandered out of that for whatever reason, right? And at that point, it seems like you felt a bit lost. Like, "Okay, so I'm out. I'm not in."

1:06:49 Speaker 3 Yep.

1:06:49 Speaker 2 But then eventually, you found out, "No, no, there's this whole larger circle around me of, of, of teachings, of, of inspiration that include people just like me."

1:06:59 Speaker 3 Right.

1:07:00 Speaker 2 Right? And so, you know, I, I understand that in Yiddishkeit we are cautious, and we don't just throw things, we don't just break things willy-nilly, and we, we, we, we, we, we understand that things are taught to us for a reason, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of valuable, there's a lot of value in our tradition.

1:07:16 Speaker 3 Yep.

1:07:17 Speaker 2 But we also understand that, that things continue to change, right?

1:07:22 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:07:22 Speaker 2 And the beauty of being Jewish and, and, and, and, and living a life of Yiddishkeit is that you feel that there's enough emes underneath this, there's enough truth at the foundation that it will be there for me on the other side of my questions.

1:07:35 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:07:35 Speaker 2 As long as I, as long as my questions are in the pursuit of truth, I will find truth.

1:07:40 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

1:07:41 Speaker 2 So, right? And I, I think that's very important to point out as like, I don't think it's a caveat, but just as like, as like a, as a, as a, like, uh, almost just to like preempt, preempt the, the kind of criticism. Like, you know, just you're dismissing things that have been done for hundreds of years. No, uh, uh, the goal here is not to tear anything down.

1:08:00 Speaker 3 No. And look, if, if we're done with the Rebbe, look, the Rebbe I think knew this more than anybody that, you know, that, uh, you know, live with this, live with the times, you know, live with the generations. And I think it's, I think it's more just to sum it up, I think it's more that, you know- Um, I always say, like, I don't think s-things, you know, should change in that system so much as there needs to be more options.

1:08:19 Speaker 2 Right. That's fair.

1:08:20 Speaker 3 That's what, you know, that's, that's really what I, what I feel. Um, like I always say, like, you know, my day, like, you know, people say, like one of your first questions, you know, when I think about going down the path of a Lubavitch yeshiva or whatever, it wasn't an option.

1:08:32 Speaker 2 To not go to Lubavitch yeshiva?

1:08:33 Speaker 3 No, it wasn't an option to go.

1:08:34 Speaker 2 For you.

1:08:34 Speaker 3 I said for me.

1:08:35 Speaker 2 Right.

1:08:35 Speaker 3 I mean, it wasn't even on my radar. I didn't have a beard. Like, there was no one that was gonna accept me, like, in, in a normal yeshiva, Lubavitch yeshiva without a beard. Today, I hear there are, you know, some, you know, situations that, you know, the people are, my, my son tells me in yeshiva. Um, but so why would I go to a place that was gonna be a second-class citizen? Or why would I go to a place that, you know, they weren't, you know, that I was gonna be that k-kid? That, you know, w-when I ended up, thank God, going to a regular yeshiva, you know, regular from guys from the regular yeshiva world who treated me just exactly like them, and we had a wonderful few years together, and some of my best friends are best rebbeim that I'm in touch with to this day. You know? So like I said, do I think we still need, you know, the, the yeshivas the exact same the way they are for, um, you know, the kids that wanna go in shlichus and all that and are, you know, are, are all the way in? You know, absolutely. I mean, I, I... My, my humble opinion, I don't think anything like that should change. I think it's just more options for other people, like you said, you know, that just don't want, you know, that still wanna be connected, and I don't think it has to be a, you know, um, o-one size fits

1:09:38 Speaker 3 all.

1:09:39 Speaker 2 Hmm.

1:09:39 Speaker 3 And I think ha- there can be more options, like you say, not, not diluting it. Um, like you say, not, um, not God forbid making the rebbe into, you know, t-uh, you know, like you say, some kumzet situation and-

1:09:49 Speaker 2 Guro

1:09:50 Speaker 3 ... around the guro, around the fire. Not like that at all. But you know what? We're not holding there. You know what? And we can still do eight things, you know, the rebbe said, you know, do right, then you know what, then, um, and not do the ten and actually live a, a healthy life and, um, you know, and actually be productive, you know, rather than God forbid, you know, keep all ten, and God forbid, you know, what we see around too often today, and, um, not healthy.

1:10:15 Speaker 2 Right.

1:10:16 Speaker 3 Would you agree with that? I mean, that's just-

1:10:17 Speaker 2 No, I, I-

1:10:17 Speaker 3 That's, that's my feelings.

1:10:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I totally... I mean, when it comes down to, like, the, the practical what d- what, you know, options in yeshiva, it's always, it's a whole different conversation of, like, you know, do we open up new yeshivas, which then by definition become, like, the yeshivas for, like, the quote-unquote rejects or for the guys who can't fit in. The, you know, how exactly to implement what you're talking about-

1:10:40 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm

1:10:40 Speaker 2 ... I think it deserves a whole conversation on its own. But I think fundamentally, I certainly agree with you that, you know, that we, we, we live in a time, uh, for at least Jewish people and really across the board of unprecedented choice and optionality, right? And, and people are pushed. If there's one thing the modern world pushes on people is that the way you grew up is not the way you're going to be later on.

1:11:06 Speaker 3 Right.

1:11:06 Speaker 2 And it's God forbid you should stay the same. And I'm not saying that they're right, but that is the trend. And all the options are at your, at your fingertips, right? So you, you, you either hunker down and say, "No, no, no. That's for them. We just have one t- we have only one thing," you know, and you kind of, I think, misquote the Midrash, "Ein ha'no'eh l'dvari ben Avraham." There's only Moshe's words, and that's it. That means that there's only one way for us, which is not what that means, but that's how it's tr-

1:11:32 Speaker 3 Understand.

1:11:32 Speaker 2 That's how it's interpreted.

1:11:33 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:11:33 Speaker 2 Right? And you hunker down and say, "Look, that world is crazy. It's too unpredictable, too much chaos. We want order and strict guidelines. This is who we are." The other option is to say, "Look, we, we know that all our kids are gonna be faced with options. We know that we're faced with options."

1:11:49 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:11:50 Speaker 2 We have to learn how to deal with it. We have to learn how to reconcile eternal immutable truths with optionality and with choices. We have to learn how to reconcile the rebbe's very absolutist vision of Judaism at the core with his also other side of encompassing love and tolerance and, and an encouragement of... I don't like the word tolerance, I should take that back, but love-

1:12:16 Speaker 3 Right

1:12:16 Speaker 2 ... and encouragement and, and, and, and, and seeing the, seeing the potential in, in each individual. I, you know, I had never taught in yeshiva, but I was a shluch in yeshiva for two years. Um, and that's when I began to pay more attention to not just myself, but to the bachur that, you know, I was supposed to be involved with. And there was nothing that saddened me more than the wasted potential that I beheld, right?

1:12:40 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:12:40 Speaker 2 Like, the fact that some guys are doing some mischievous stuff, whatever, you can live with that. Guy-

1:12:45 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:12:45 Speaker 2 Boy, boys will be boys. You know what I mean? Like-

1:12:47 Speaker 3 Sure

1:12:47 Speaker 2 ... good luck.

1:12:48 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:12:48 Speaker 2 Good luck ending that.

1:12:50 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:12:50 Speaker 2 Like, it's never gonna ha-

1:12:51 Speaker 3 Yeah

1:12:51 Speaker 2 ... to the end of time. But what doesn't need to happen is this wasted potential, and to see boys begin to question their self-worth because they're spending hours and hours doing nothing with their time and feeling like abject failures. And so is this a critique of, of, of, of yeshivas? Well, to some extent, of course it is. But the point I'm trying to make is more that, like, you have to understand that the, that, that, that, that the rebbe was for sure against wasting time.

1:13:20 Speaker 3 Totally.

1:13:20 Speaker 2 And for sure against wasting potential. Like, nobody's gonna convince me out of that.

1:13:24 Speaker 3 No.

1:13:24 Speaker 2 So, so, so we have to figure out a way to reconcile the rebbe's absolute truth that was unbendable and, like, like it is what it is, and this is, you know, here's, here's the standard with the fact the rebbe also saw that a person who, who, who's not there needs to elevate himself and make the best out of himself, right?

1:13:44 Speaker 3 Exactly.

1:13:44 Speaker 2 So how does that play out in the yeshiva system? I don't know. It's a whole different conversation, and, you know, like, I don't run a yeshiva, and u-unlike yourself, I also I don't yet contribute too much to yeshivas. So-

1:13:56 Speaker 3 God willing you will.

1:13:57 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, maybe. But, but, um, you know, I, I don't yet feel like that's my pl- like, like it's not a relevant conversation of how to do it.

1:14:05 Speaker 3 Sure. Sure.

1:14:06 Speaker 2 But, you know, but more like more... You know, I, I think the, the first question is, and the first discussion is what, what, uh... It, it's more a philosophical shift before a technical shift of, like, how do we actually divvy up the yeshiva system, and how do we open up different yeshivas? It's more even the regular yeshivas need to, I think, philosophically change a little bit and say that absolute standards result in t- catastrophic waste of potential, and that's not something that's gonna work going forward. But I don't, I, I don't, I, I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna end on, on this negative note. Uh, I know we have to go soon. You know, the, the, the name of this podcast is Homesick for Lubavitch, and, you know, there are many ways. One of the reasons I chose that title is because there are so many ways to interpret it, and people take it different ways. Uh, but I think overall in our conversation, there's a very positive feeling that you have towards Lubavitch.

1:15:07 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

1:15:07 Speaker 2 Right? And, and in that sense, Homesick for Lubavitch means that there's something that you're nostalgic for, but not in a sense it makes you sick-

1:15:14 Speaker 3 No

1:15:14 Speaker 2 ... but in a, in that, that, that when you think about it, fills you up with something warm.

1:15:20 Speaker 3 Absolutely.

1:15:20 Speaker 2 Right? So what is it? A-and let's end with this. What is it, if you had to summarize it in short, what is it-- what i- what is that of Lubavitch that you are holding onto most strongly, and that you most wish to convey to your children?

1:15:35 Speaker 3 Hmm. Good question. Um, look, I think it's just, you know, just seeing the Rebbe's leadership and the Rebbe's love for every Jew, and that's something, like you say, for somebody that didn't know Aleph Bet all the way to, you know, the big Rosh Yeshiva, and everyone in the middle. Um, and it's just the ex- And the acceptance, you know, the way the Rebbe did accept everybody. You know, when he'd write the letters back to people, God forbid, they're sitting in jail, and the Rebbe responded back to them and told them something good or something, a way that they could still, you know, better their lives in such a, God forbid, you know, terrible situation. So I think definitely that's for sure, you know, something that I take with me every single day. You know, the Rebbe's obviously

1:16:29 Speaker 2 Amen. Amen. Good luck with your chazzanus.

1:16:47 Speaker 3 Thank you.

1:16:47 Speaker 2 I saw-- I, I cleared away the books for, for your chazzanus.

1:16:50 Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you.

1:16:50 Speaker 2 I know it's a big deal.

1:16:51 Speaker 3 Yes.

1:16:51 Speaker 2 But should be a good in the family.

1:16:54 Speaker 3 Amen. Amen.

1:16:55 Speaker 2 And only share good news-

1:16:56 Speaker 3 Thank you

1:16:56 Speaker 2 ... and podcasts.

1:16:57 Speaker 3 Thank you, and it's always a pleasure being in your company, and, uh, really, thank you.

1:17:00 Speaker 2 Likewise, brother. It's been a great, great honor to, to get to know you and to spend time with you.

1:17:04 Speaker 3 Thank you.

1:17:05 Speaker 2 Thank you.

1:17:05 Speaker 3 Thank you.

1:17:08 Speaker 2 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.