Ep. 4 // Emergency Podcast "How Can We Think of Responding?" with IDF Veteran Leibel Mangel

00:00 Speaker 1 We need to keep pushing the envelope, and we need to do more, and we need to be more involved, and, and, and maybe tr- maybe the, the Trum campaign is our comfort zone. May- maybe that is, right? And how do we, how do we do the Trum campaign and then some? And, and I think, I think these are the questions that we need to be asking.

00:20 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year two thousand and twenty-three. My name is Bentzi Hofstien, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Thank you very much for doing this, Leibel. Um-

00:41 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

00:41 Speaker 2 This is-

00:42 Speaker 1 Thanks for having me.

00:43 Speaker 2 This is a first for me. I mean, in general, the podcast is relatively new, but, um, you know, making one of these emergency podcasts that, uh, is more relevant to something that's happening, current events is certainly new for me, and I appreciate you joining. Um, you know, so why is it important for at least for me to talk to you, and why I think it's important for others to hear this conversation? Um, you know, why does it matter in the grand scheme of things? You know, the podcast is about Lubavitch identity, and, uh, I think, you know, as we navigate the world in general, and as we navigate the world in specific moments of time, uh, our identity and how we see ourselves in that world, uh, is very important, and is, is, is in many ways an anchor of how we see it, right? 'Cause there's so many different ways of seeing it and so many different viewpoints that knowing where we stand and why we stand there is quite important, very important. And Israel, I feel, is a topic that is something that we all know about, and we all think about a lot, especially in moments like these. But where we stand on them as Lubavitchers is something that is kind of fuzzy, you know, and everybody kind of just makes it, makes it up as they go along for themselves, which maybe that's how it's supposed to be. But I think it, I think it, it pays to, to speak to

02:12 Speaker 2 different people, es- and certainly people who have been deeply invested, uh, in Israel and have thought about it a lot. And so that's why I reached out to you. Um, you know, as, as, as... You know, why don't you just-- why, why don't you introduce yourself and, you know, um, what your relationship to Israel is and we'll go from there.

02:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Um, my name is Leibel Manguel. Obviously, I was born and raised in a suburb, a northern suburb of Cincinnati, Ohio, Blue Ash, Ohio. My parents were shluchim, uh, in Blue Ash, so grew up kind of usual shluchim lifestyle, you know, going to a kind of modern Orthodox day school growing up. Um, just kind of the regular run-of-the-mill Jewish childhood, I guess. Uh, eventually, as I think a lot of shluchim do when it comes to bar mitzvah and eighth grade, eventually left home because there weren't any Chabad schools in Cincinnati. I ended up in Chicago for a little while, um, and came back to yeshiva in Cincinnati. From there, yeshiva in New Haven, um, before eventually leaving the yeshiva system, um, and came back to Cincinnati, where I went to public school. I had the opportunity there to, to play football for my hometown high school, which, you know, is, is pretty uncommon for someone with my background. Um, kinda did that for a few years, graduated public school. Thought I was gonna continue, um, playing football at the collegiate level, would continue getting my education. But, um, I think it was at that point that I really stepped back and realized that, um, you know, I, I thought I left the yeshiva system, but it-- because I was trying to find myself and realized that in the public school system, I lost myself even more.

03:59 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:00 Speaker 1 Um, and that's something that, you know, I had a bit of an issue with and, and wasn't comfortable with, and ultimately decided that for me, the way I was, at least at that time, felt I was gonna best reconnect with, with my upbringing, with, with Judaism, with connection to my people, was, was going to Israel, and that's what I did. I, I, I kinda left the, left the education behind, left the football behind, went to Israel. I might've been enlisting in the military there, served there for a couple of years. Um-

04:28 Speaker 2 You went there with, you went there with the Intention 10 list?

04:31 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

04:32 Speaker 2 Okay.

04:33 Speaker 1 Um, I, I didn't know all the details, didn't know much about it or how it was gonna work or what that experience would be like, but, um, I felt like it's something that I needed to do at that point in time, and that was my calling, so to speak. Um, you know, I grew up... People may know of Rabbi Nissen Manguel, my grandfather, one of the youngest survivors of Auschwitz, and I, I did know growing up that it was gonna come a point in time in my life that I was gonna have to give back in some way. Again, I don't know that I necessarily knew exactly what that would be and when it would be.

05:01 Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

05:01 Speaker 1 But it was always in the back of my mind. And at that point in life, as at 19 years old, kind of just finishing public school, finishing high s- graduating high school, it, it kinda just all clicked, and it made sense to me, and, and that's what I ended up doing.

05:14 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

05:14 Speaker 1 Um, so that's really when my, you know, I would guess, real connection to Israel started. Like you mentioned, you know, we grew up, we spoke about Israel. When Israel was in the news, we, we spoke about it a little bit more. Uh, you know, watch Rebbe videos, listening to the Rebbe speak about soldiers in Israel and things like that. Um, but I think that that relationship was, was definitely different than the one that I started to develop once I went over there and, and actually put on the uniform and, and got a little bit of a different perspective that maybe I didn't get growing up. Um, you know, I don't know how far into the weeds we wanna get, but, you know, we grew up-

05:49 Speaker 2 All the way, man. All the way, man. All the way.

05:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, we grew up, you know, like, when we went to Jewish events in the city, and "Hatikvah" would play, and, you know, we walked out of the room. And, and as a child, you know, I don't-- didn't quite understand the reasons for that or why, but this is just kind of how it was. And, and I think it was- Just through that lens, whereas wearing, wearing the uniform and, and being exposed to, to reality on the ground there and, and seeing, you know, w- understanding really what it m- what, what Israel means from, from that point of view, um, interestingly enough, not only deepened my connection to Israel, but really, really, in ways that I couldn't even imagine, re-strengthened my, my connection to my upbringing and, and, uh, to Judaism. Not only Judaism, but Chabad and, and the Rebbe and upbringing, and all these things that I was kind of pushing aside for, for a number of years. That was really the starting place for me to reconnect to all of that, um, and it kinda continued to develop over time. And, and obviously with the events going on here now, it's unfortunately something that I, I'm feeling very strongly today and, and felt over the last few days. And, um, you know, I think like most of us, what's going through our minds right now is, is, "What do we do? How do we get involved? How do we help? How do we be of service?" Um, but that's, that's kind of a

07:14 Speaker 1 little bit of the, the upbringing and, and how I got from Chabad of Blue Ash, Ohio, to, to serving in the IDF and, and where we are today.

07:24 Speaker 2 Yeah. Um, you know, I would wanna explore a little bit, uh-

07:27 Speaker 1 Yeah

07:27 Speaker 2 ... the, that, that, I don't know if the word is divide, 'cause it seems like you've been able to bring them together. But, you know, I also grew up in a Chabad house. I grew up in Hong Kong. I remember very distinctly there was a, um, some kind of school play. There was a Jewish school there, and there was a school play where one of the songs that was being sung was "Avinu Malkeinu," right? And, um, it was like a whole thing of how do, how do we have the song without me being part of the... without me being part of the song?

07:57 Speaker 1 Yeah.

07:57 Speaker 2 How do I, how do I get off the stage gracefully, you know? And, and so I don't think it's a question that, that, you know, that Lubavitch philosophically has been at odds on some level with the Zionist idea, you know, or with the Zionist state, right?

08:15 Speaker 1 Right.

08:15 Speaker 2 Um, and, and so, yeah, I mean, the, Chabad does not sing Hatikvah, does not sing-- It does not say, "Avinu Malkeinu, tzur yishor v'go'al," it doesn't say these things, you know. And yet, and yet there's certainly a deep, deep connection with Israel and with the people of Israel, and even, even the s- serving in the army of Israel. It's not like going to the army is an, is really something op-opposite to what Lubavitch stands for. Quite to the contrary, right?

08:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I, I think, I, I don't know that I necessarily understood that completely until I actually got over there, right?

08:56 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

08:57 Speaker 1 It, uh, a lot of it, to me growing up-

09:02 Speaker 2 Yeah

09:02 Speaker 1 ... maybe sounded a little bit just like lip service. Like, "Yeah, we don't do these things, but we, this is how we do support." And it's kind of like roll your eyes, and like, "Okay, what does, what does that actually mean?"

09:11 Speaker 2 Right.

09:12 Speaker 1 Um, but-

09:13 Speaker 2 D-doughnuts, d-d-doughnuts doesn't equal guns.

09:16 Speaker 1 Right.

09:16 Speaker 2 Right?

09:17 Speaker 1 Right. Um, but I think once I got over there, and not only for myself but, but interacting with, with other, you know, Chabad guys who were there, or, um, you know, I spent a significant period of time in Hebron and in-interacting with, you know, Danny Cohen and all the amazing people there, and seeing how, how invested they are and how much they care, and it's, it's not just lip service. And, you know, there may be things that we, you know, Chabad disagrees with, with, with the kind of mainstream Zionist movement. But when push comes to shove, based on my experience, there, there was nobody who was there more than people like Danny Cohen and, and Chabad in general. And, you know, there's the Chayal Chayal, the Chabad Lone Soldier Center in Israel. I mean, all of these things is just, to me was, I don't know if it's proof, but, but, but just, you know, interaction a-after interaction and connection after connection of like, okay, these things don't have to be at odds. And I think over the last few years or last number of years, it's become even more common. I mean, the amount of Chabad guys that are in Israel now, um, you know, on the front lines today or supporting in whatever way that they can, it's, it's, it's pretty incredible, and I don't, I don't see it as a contradiction anymore. I think in life, but as Jews, we, we all have different roles to play, and for some it may

10:41 Speaker 1 be supporting in one way, and for some it may be in supporting another way. But, but they're all important, and they're all meaningful, and, um, I think they all intersect and, and need to work in unison in order for us to, to be at full strength, so to speak. And, and that was without a doubt my experience there. And, and again, I think feeling that firsthand allowed me to, or it opened up the, the possibilities for me to reconnect to my upbringing and reconnect to Judaism in, in other ways as well. So, um, I think that was important for me personally, kind of in my mission and my journey, and, and I think, I think the world is starting to see that more and more today as well, when it comes to Chabad and, and Israel and the IDF and things of that nature.

11:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think there's definitely, there's definitely a very, a very positive way of looking at it, which, which is like the way you just outlined it, that there are-- that everybody has different roles. And, and there, there are roles that maybe rise to prominence or feel more acute in times like this, like, like the people going on the front lines, the actual s-soldiers who are-

11:51 Speaker 1 Right

11:51 Speaker 2 ... who are actually fighting, right? But there, there are oth- there are other roles, and there, there's spiritual support, there's mental support, there's, there's, there's, there is, there is a s- a sense... there's morale support that is very important as well.

12:08 Speaker 1 Yeah.

12:08 Speaker 2 Um, you know, I-- to me, to me that's, you know, that, that, that's Look, I never went to the army, so I don't really have a place to speak about it one way or another, 'cause I didn't make that sacrifice. So s- you know, it, it, it's not for me to say that this is better than that when I didn't do that, you know? Like, it's not like I, I can... But I, I, I feel like the, the one thing that does gnaw at me a little bit and bothers me a little bit is the it feels sometimes that, that we, when things like this happen, we c- at least in the Chabad circles that, that I, that I am aware of, we kind of always fall back on old refrains, you know? Um, the rabbi said this then, the rabbi said that, the rabbi said that then, this is how we respond in crisis like these. Like, we know right away on one hand what to do, but at the same time, it feels almost like how do we? You know, like, how do you know right away what to do when... Like, this is a shocking event. This is not, this is not just another inning in the game, you know? This is not just another-

13:10 Speaker 1 Right

13:11 Speaker 2 ... round in, you know, another round of the same thing. Um, this is clearly a shocking event. Um, the feelings that a lot of us are feeling today, you know, es- even, especially those of us who don't live in Israel, the reason why, why so many of us are, are so, so troubled by this, and that's not the right word, are so devastated by this is, um, is the sense that we're, we're all back to square one in a way. You know, we all thought that we'd kind of escaped that, you know, anti-Semitic paradigm or the world against the Jews paradigm of our grandparents and our great-grandparents, and kind of rolled, you know, not rolled our eyes, but like, you know, that's from back in the past, you know, the stories of the us against them is b-

13:52 Speaker 1 Right

13:52 Speaker 2 ... you know, from the past. We've-- We don't live there anymore. And then you're, like, reminded that, 'cause not only did you see these horrific pogrom images, like it's a pogrom flat out.

14:01 Speaker 1 Yeah.

14:02 Speaker 2 You know, not any less or not any more brutal than the pogroms of the past. Perhaps more, but cert- you know, it, it, it's-

14:08 Speaker 1 Yeah

14:09 Speaker 2 ... it, it, it's, it, it-

14:09 Speaker 1 Real barbaric, for sure

14:10 Speaker 2 ... it's full on pogrom. This is the stories that we grew up hearing sometimes, uh, and now we're seeing it. So w- we know that, we know that it, that, that, that it's that. Um, and, and we see on top of that, and probably even worse, is we see that the world as a whole doesn't respond to it with the way you'd think they would, right? If you, if you believe that the world has moved, has moved forward, right? Like the, it's very like all this, you know, the newspapers all kind of playing this two sides to it, and all that garbage, and so on. So we've all been woken up yet again, but this time on a, I think, deeper level that we're kind of back to square one. I mean, at least I can speak for myself, that's how I feel. Um, you know, and so in a, in a, in an unprecedented thing, in, in an unpre- in an unprecedented event like this, it feels kind of, I think the word, I don't think the word shallow, but it feels kind of knee-jerk, and it feels, it feels kinda lacking to kinda just go back to, "Oh, last time there was a thing in, in Gaza, we all, you know, put on tefillin and, and put on, and put mezuzahs," and so on. You know, that's what we're gonna do today as well. Like-

15:19 Speaker 1 Right

15:19 Speaker 2 ... isn't there something else? You know what I mean?

15:22 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I, I, I think that's an interesting, it's an interesting point. And there, there's no question that this is, this is unlike anything certainly anyone in our generation has ever experienced before. Um, this is different, and it's, it's, it's, it's not just the numbers, the loss of life, but again, you know, I'm seeing some things in my life, but this is, this is next level, and this is barbaric on, on, in ways that can't be described. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I think people have seen things in the media and on the news and stuff like that, but whatever you've seen, it doesn't even come close to, to the full picture, and I, I don't even, I don't think that we fully understand the full picture yet. And, um-

16:12 Speaker 2 And it's not close to being over.

16:13 Speaker 1 No. And, and the le- the level of which, like I, you know, I'm trying to come up with the words, and I've been trying to come up with the words for the last few days, and I d- I don't have them. Like I... There, there aren't words for, for what took place. And, you know, I was talking with some other people, and it's like, for me, it's one thing, you know, so- soldiers die, which is horrific, obviously, and w- you know, we don't ever wish for that. But, but what they did to our women and children openly, publicly, like, you know, this is, this is like you were saying, pogroms. This is Nazi, Nazi Germany stuff. Um, and our response can't just be the s- the same old. It can't be. But at, at the same time, I don't think that, that it means that we don't do those things. Like I don't think that, you know, Tehillim campaigns or mitzvah camp, like I don't think those, those are negative things, but-

17:10 Speaker 2 Agreed

17:10 Speaker 1 ... but I do think it, I do think it needs to be, it needs to be more than that. Um, and I think we as individuals and as a community need to take this opportunity to take a look in the mirror and, and be very honest with ourselves of, of where our shortcomings are and have been. And, um, you know, did we get too comfortable? And, and what, what can we do not only today but in our lives moving forward? You know, hopefully, hopefully there, there'll be a peaceful resolution to this at some point and, and life will move on. But if we go back to the way we were living last week, we-

17:52 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

17:52 Speaker 1 ... we kinda missed the point. Um-

17:55 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

17:55 Speaker 1 And I don't, I don't know that I have the answers of what specifically that is and what the answers to those questions are. But, um, you know, I, I think just, you know, a week ago we were talking about the, the hatred within the Jewish community one to another, you know, the, the-

18:10 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

18:10 Speaker 1 ... things going on in Israel on a different level, even here in the States. And, um- I, I won't ever say that this is why this happened. Of, of course not, God forbid. But if, if we go back to the way life was, then, then it was all for naught. And, um, you know, for me, my-- you know, thinking about the soldiers who, you know, last night many of them said goodbye to their families for the last time. You know, 'cause when there's war, there, there's undoubtedly soldiers who are never coming home again. Do we just say thank you and, and put on tefillin? Or again, is there lifelong change that's being made when we internalize that, the sacrifices that these people are making on, on our behalf, literally on our behalf? And, um, I think that's something that we have to collectively, well, first as individuals, then collectively as a people, take a long look in the mirror and figure out how life changes from here, and what positive impacts can we make in our own lives, in our families' lives, in our communities' lives as a result of this. And, um, you're right, it, it can't just be, it can't just be same old because this, this wasn't, this wasn't same old. This is... This was different. And, and I think we all, we all feel it. We all feel it, but let's not... You know, let, let's, let's make sure that we're using this time while we're feeling these things to, to

19:39 Speaker 1 make real positive change and positive impact. And I remember, you know, at, at that point I th- I thought it was the... At that point, it was the most horrific thing I'd ever experienced, but I was serving in 2014 when, um, Eyal Givati and Naftali were kidnapped, um, in Gush Etzion. Actually, it was, it happened right across the street from the base where we're station- we were stationed at the time. It was heavily involved in, in that operation. And, um, I remember f- I remember that feeling of Jewish unity that I felt at that time during those few weeks was-- It was like a physical high almost of like, like this is what it's, this is what it's supposed to feel like when we talk about the Jewish people and united as one and all that. And but then I remember thinking on the flip side, it's like, why does it take something as awful as this to feel that? Like why, why do we need-- Why as a people do we need death and pain and destruction in order to feel like we're family? Like how, how do we move, how do we move away from that place? And, you know, families have disagreements and arguments, and we don't all have to be the same, and why can't we be okay with that and, and still feel that family feeling during times when maybe we think things are comfortable and good? And, you know, my, my fear is with this is right now I

20:59 Speaker 1 think we're gonna feel that similar feeling of unity and, and connectedness and, and family feeling, but, you know, do we just go back to what was when it's all over? And then again, I don't, I don't, I don't know that I have all the answers as, as far as how we, how we change that, but I do think these are some of the questions that we need to be asking ourselves. Um-

21:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, this is a podcast about questions. This isn't a podcast-

21:25 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:25 Speaker 2 ... about answers. Um, you know, uh, uh, these are questions I don't think anybody has answers to. And, you know, the, the tendency sometimes is that when you don't have the answer to a question, you feel like therefore you shouldn't an- you shouldn't ask it in the first place. And I, I don't-

21:44 Speaker 1 Right

21:44 Speaker 2 ... I, I don't, I, I don't feel like that's-- First of all, I don't think that's a right move, and second of all, I don't think it works. 'Cause when the question's there, it's there. If you're not asking it, it doesn't like put it away. It just ignore, you know, you, you make believe like it's not there, but it's still there.

21:59 Speaker 1 Right.

21:59 Speaker 2 And it bothers you, you know, it bothers you that way. Um, you know, I, I... You know, the, the one thing that really... I, I-- Let, let me first follow up on what you just said, you know.

22:10 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:10 Speaker 2 You, you mentioned something that we had touched on earlier, which you, which you had said that you had kind of resolved, but, you know, you, you brought it up again in a way that I think, I don't know if it bothers a lot of people, but it's something that a lot of us think about, 'cause I've, I've spoken about it to many people, which is, you know, like the soldier when he goes to war, especially in a time like this, you know, and especially in Israel where many of the soldiers are people just like you and me, married with families, with lives-

22:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

22:41 Speaker 2 ... and then they, they really put it on the line. They don't get to choose if they are going to be stationed in the city doing, quote-unquote, "safer work," or if they're gonna be sent straight into the, the hellhole that is Gaza or whatever. They don't-- Once they're in there, they don't get to choose, right? Um, so they're really putting everything on the line. You know, there is a sense of inadequacy, you know, compared to them. It's like, okay, I get it, you know, putting on tefillin, putting on tefillin with other people, creating this morale or whatever it is, if you're, if you're-

23:16 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:16 Speaker 2 ... a rabbi or if you're a person-- if you're a private person, what you do with your friends or your business, you know, whatever the thing is that you do, posting on social media, although I'm not sure that that's really a thing. You know, um, whatever it is, you're not putting it all on the line. Let's get real. You're not. You're, you're, you're doing something good, I, I don't disagree, and I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but you're not putting it all on the line. So what is, what, what ought one to... What, what should one do? You know, what, what is there to do? I mean, I, I-

23:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

23:49 Speaker 2 ... I, I can't go join the army now. I'm not even saying that I would, but I mean, like-

23:54 Speaker 1 Right

23:54 Speaker 2 ... when I, when I really think about it honestly, would I really do that? But it's not even open to me, right? So like-

23:59 Speaker 1 Right

24:00 Speaker 2 ... so what is the-- what, what in your mind, as someone who has served in the army and, and knows what that commitment is and has friends there right now, I'm sure, what do you feel is the adequate response from a person who doesn't have that response at his d- at his disposal?

24:21 Speaker 1 So I think what's interesting about that question is, is you're asking me to take a reverse opinion to everything I've been saying for the last couple of days, because I've been wrestling with, with this burning feeling of like, I need to be going back there-

24:35 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm

24:35 Speaker 1 ... um, and doing everything I can to get back over there, with everyone around me telling me that, you know, I-- maybe I shouldn't be doing that, and there's other things I can be doing that, that will make me useful from here. And I've been... Yeah, I've been wrestling with it for the last few days and, and so now you're asking me to, to talk about the other side of it. Um, but I think ultimately it's this and what everyone's been telling me, which, which again thinks-- I think makes this a little bit interesting for me to be saying. But, um, the reality is, is that it doesn't all work if there aren't people doing different things, right?

25:24 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

25:24 Speaker 1 Is th- take about even a military environment, right? It's like, if everybody was a foot soldier, the foot soldiers wouldn't last very long because foot soldier needs logistics behind it, it needs planning behind it, it needs support behind it, it needs, you know, people who are making sure the ammunition is correct, people making food, doing all of these things. You know, for, for every f- one foot soldier, there's 10 people behind the scenes who are enabling or empowering that foot soldier to be able to do their job properly. Um, and I think the same thing is true on a, on a larger scale. Um, you know, the soldiers going into battle, who are they going into battle for?

26:02 Speaker 2 Mm.

26:03 Speaker 1 Right? It's like they're going into battle in order, in order for us to be able to continue to live as normal of a live as, life as we can, to be able to continue living openly and proudly as, as Jews, and to be able to doing, not, not only doing that in our minds, but doing that in reality, in the world. And, um, they're protecting our way of life and our, you know, Jewi- they're protecting all of these things, and if, if there wasn't that to protect, then what they're doing is meaningless. And the only reason there is that, what to protect, is because we're here. Um, so I do think every- everyone has a different role to play, and, and it's easy to convince ourselves, and, and I've been doing this for the last three days, that those things maybe are not, are not so important because I think the, the maybe the, um... I, I hope this isn't, uh, inappropriate for this platform, but the sexy thing to do is, is to be that, that guy with a gun and, and to, you know, be involved in that way. But again, uh, if you would ask those people right now why are they doing what they're doing, they'd answer for you, and they'd... If you asked them, they'd answer for you, and if I asked them, they'd say they're doing it for me and for their families there, and for Jews living here, and for Jews living across the world. So I think

27:23 Speaker 1 the only, the only thing that makes their sacrifice worthwhile is if we continue to, to live openly and proudly as Jews, and take this opportunity of their sacrifice and make sure that we're sacrificing in our lives and on whatever scale that might be, whether that might be, you know, I don't know. I can say for me personally, like for many, for many years, you know, tefillin every day was, was a struggle. And if that's maybe my sacrifice of, you know, I don't wanna put on tefillin today, or that guy's going into battle, I can do it today. Or maybe I can put it on with somebody else, or I can speak to another Jew as, as a Jew, regardless of all the things that I disagree with him about. Or I can, you know, make amends with a, a former friend or a family member who I've fallen out. Like, the way we properly honor them is making sure the sacrifice that they're making actually goes towards something, and, and that something is, is us, our families, our homes, the Jewish people. And, um, I think that that is super impor- important because it doesn't work otherwise. You know, we, we can't just all be foot soldiers and there's nothing to protect.

28:33 Speaker 2 Right. Right. Yeah, it's, it's-

28:37 Speaker 1 But now on the flip side, I'm, I'm gonna go continue arguing with people that what I need to be doing is getting back there. So.

28:43 Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't think... I mean, to be fair to you, I think it's not just s- about being, about doing the sexy thing, you know? That's not what... I, I mean, I'm sure that a part of that, I'm sure there is a part of that.

28:55 Speaker 1 May- maybe that's not the right word, but I think it's, it's what gets the... Like, there's, that's the thing that, that hits you in the face.

29:01 Speaker 2 Right.

29:01 Speaker 1 When you think of sacrifice, that's, that's what you think of. But again-

29:04 Speaker 2 I under- I under- I understood you meant it that way, but I don't think it's only that. I think a lot of times when, when there's a big challenge in front of us, a lot of us look for that thing where we know for sure that we did, like we gave it our all.

29:19 Speaker 1 Right.

29:19 Speaker 2 Like you, you know, that, that one thing where like it's, there's no, there's no gray, it's black and white, and it's like, "If I do this, then, then it's a one-time commitment and I'm in." You know? And, and, you know, what else could I do? And I... There's a certain kind of a, a relief almost, I think, that happens then, where it's like, "Okay, I know I'm doing all I can do." Um-

29:43 Speaker 1 Right

29:43 Speaker 2 ... you know, whereas in everything else you described, there's a lot of-

29:48 Speaker 1 Gray

29:48 Speaker 2 ... there's a lot, a lot of gray and a lot of room for, for convincing yourself. You know?

29:53 Speaker 1 Right.

29:53 Speaker 2 A lot of room for, you know, yeah, I'm doing a ton, but really are you? Like, I mean, I, I, I don't mean to sound cynical, but like, you know, like if, if you put like social media posts on your, on your profile, you know?

30:04 Speaker 1 Right.

30:05 Speaker 2 Like, how many posts equals like you did-

30:08 Speaker 1 Right. So, so, so that's where I'll-

30:09 Speaker 2 You know what I'm saying?

30:10 Speaker 1 That's where I'll, I'll interject and say it, it still has to be sacrifice.

30:15 Speaker 2 Right.

30:15 Speaker 1 Right? So, you know, saying, "Well, I uploaded three posts today, so I did my job," you didn't do... You, you didn't push yourself. You didn't sacrifice in any way, right?

30:25 Speaker 2 Right.

30:25 Speaker 1 You sat on your couch or on your toilet, and you came up with a couple words that sound like sacrifice, right? So again, I think it, it takes real introspection and looking inward of what's sacrifice to me in my life, in my situation, you know? I mean, I've, you know, I've traveled a little bit, you know, speaking to different groups, um, and this is something that I get asked often is, you know, "Well, I can't serve," or, "I don't think I can," or... And, and my answer to them is, is you don't need to. Like for someone, for someone at, at their point in life with the upbringing that they had and their circumstances, it could be their sacrifice leads them to serve on the front lines. You know, for somebody it could mean You know, supporting the soldiers on the front lines financially. For someone else, it could be their, you know, financial giving is not sacrifice for them because they have the means to do so, right? So for that person, I would say, yeah, you know, keep giving, but, but also find, find, find an area where you do need to step out of your comfort zone, and you do need to push yourself, and you do need to be uncomfortable.

31:25 Speaker 2 Right.

31:25 Speaker 1 Um, and let that be your sacrifice. So, so I don't think it can just be a social media post. I think everyone needs to look inward and figure out what, what for them is comfortable, and step outside of that comfort zone and figure out what you can be doing that is less comfortable and, and, um, you know, kind of tap into that more, whatever it is. Like I think the, the... I think the way of sacrifice is less important than the decision to sacrifice.

31:55 Speaker 2 Mm.

31:55 Speaker 1 You know, 'cause I think once we do that, especially as a people, when you, when you compound that individual after individual after individual who's stepping out of their comfort zone and sacrificing in their way, I think the impact is, is pretty significant.

32:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's a very nice thought. Uh, it's a very... You know, it's, it's, it, it's, it, it's, it... To tie it back to something you, we spoke about earlier, it almost feels like, you know, you... It has to match, at the very least, it has to match conceptually with the moment. It has to match the moment.

32:30 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.

32:30 Speaker 2 So if it's a regular moment, you know, and it's like, what do I do on a regular day? So yeah, you have your routine, and, you know, you judge your productivity accordingly. But when it's, when it's a different kind of moment, then your response has to be in some way, you know, on that level, right? And so, um, it, it's certainly not business as usual anymore, right?

32:54 Speaker 1 Right.

32:54 Speaker 2 And, and, um, you know, so many of us feel on a visceral level that, uh, again, let me just speak for myself. I, I don't... You know, I can't speak on behalf of other people. To me, it feels like back to square one, and there's a lot of... Maybe not... You know, I live in f- I live in America, which for now, and, you know, let's be honest, does feel quite safe compared to, com- compared to what's going on right now in Israel. I know there are concerns, but we, we live, for now, in America in a very, very privileged space. But the concern is, how long will that last? And is it as safe? Is the world as safe, or is the world as welcoming as we were brought up to think it was? And I think the answer is becoming a more and more resounding no, right?

33:42 Speaker 1 Right.

33:42 Speaker 2 And so, you know, how do, how does my response kind of match that moment, right? And, you know, that, that leads us to what you just spoke about as, as introspection. You know, some people who are soldiers, you know, in a way, they have this blessing where they know exactly what they're meant to be doing, report to duty and follow orders. And I, I, it... You know, in no way am I belittling what, what they have-

34:11 Speaker 1 Sure

34:11 Speaker 2 ... to go through. Like I, you know, I'm a total coward in, you know, in front of what they do. But in that sense, I would imagine there's a certain kind of relief. "Okay, I'm doing what I'm meant to be doing." Right? Um, whereas for all the rest of us who don't have that kind of black and white, uh, intros... It, it becomes a thing of introspection. It, it, it becomes dependent on our introspection, and that's where things start getting complicated.

34:37 Speaker 1 Right.

34:37 Speaker 2 And to tie it back, to tie it back to the particular question of Lubavitch identity, I feel this is where a lot of us begin to struggle because, you know, Lubavitch, in so many ways, is seen as the place with the answers. You know, like we have our marching orders too. The soldier knows exactly what he's meant to be doing. He's meant to go and, you know, report to command X a- and be told what to do. The Lubavitcher knows that he's supposed to start putting on tefillin with people, right? And start going in that direction. And, you know, maybe it's just, maybe it's, maybe it's a flaw in me, you know, that I don't feel like... It, it's not that I don't believe that tefillin is, is... can't be the right response to this.

35:27 Speaker 1 Right.

35:27 Speaker 2 I don't know enough. I'm not a spiritual giant to know one way or another. What, what does feel quite compelling to me is that the, the immediate response where like we know this... Like knowing that this is a response 100%, that is hard for me to resonate with as I, as, as I get older, if I'm gonna be honest. Like, uh, like you said earlier, there's no question that it's, that it's a good thing. Of course, it's a good thing, you know. And, and Yidden being more connected to their Yiddishkeit and, and, and, and, and being more proud of their Yiddishkeit is a beautiful thing and, and, and it's, it's, it's for sure a response of a kind. There's no question. But it's almost like, you know, this, this new unprecedented thing happens, and then our response is-

36:14 Speaker 1 Right

36:14 Speaker 2 ... the same old. It's like-

36:16 Speaker 1 So, so maybe-

36:17 Speaker 2 ... where, where, where did the introspection happen? You know what I mean?

36:19 Speaker 1 Right. May- maybe that's the challenge though, right? Is like, you know, I, I'm, I'm no expert by any means, and I'm, maybe I'm not the right one to say this, but, but I'd imagine that if the Rebbe could say something today, he wouldn't, he wouldn't be saying, "Let's do the same thing that we've been doing." Right? From what I know, it was always about doing more and more and more, and keep pushing the envelope, and he was, you know, always revolutionizing Judaism on a, on a, on a, on a global scale, right? So I'd, I'd imagine that would be continuing to, continuing today, especially in the times that we're in after these recent events. So, you know, I think the fact that, I think the fact that you're... I think, I think the fact that you feel like doing the same old is not enough, I think, I think that's the exact right ... mentality to have, and I think he would have that same mentality of like, "We need to keep pushing the envelope, and we need to do more, and we need to be more involved." And, and, and maybe tr- maybe the, the tefillin campaign is our comfort zone. May- maybe that is, right? And how do we, how do we do the tefillin campaign and then some? And, and I think, I think these are the questions that we need to be asking, and whether it's, you know, directly in response to the tefillin campaign or other things that we feel

37:39 Speaker 1 like, you know, maybe we need to be doing more of at times like this. But from everything I know about the Rebbe, when, in a time like this, he, he wouldn't be saying, "Yeah, remember that old thing that I spoke about years ago? Like, let's, let's just do that again." Like, it would always be about more and more, and I, you know, I, I, I think that that-

38:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. May, may, maybe he would, may- maybe, maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, right? That's kind of the, that's kind of the problem that we have. We don't know. And-

38:07 Speaker 1 But I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, again, I'm no expert, but I don't think he ever told somebody, "No, don't do, don't do that. Like, that's too much. Like-"

38:15 Speaker 2 Uh-

38:16 Speaker 1 "... scale that back. Don't step out of-"

38:18 Speaker 2 I'm not disagreeing with you.

38:19 Speaker 1 "You know, it has to be only this or only that," right? It's like, I, I think maybe that needs to be the push from inside is yes, tefillin campaign, but what else?

38:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I'm not disagreeing with you.

38:32 Speaker 1 And I-

38:32 Speaker 2 I'm not disagreeing with you. I, I'm just saying I think like that's, that's precisely the nub of the problem, where like-

38:37 Speaker 1 Right

38:37 Speaker 2 ... we, we, we don't know. We don't know. And, and I feel like, I feel like a, a, a time like this, there, like there needs to be s- there needs to be s- somewhere along the line be- be- between event and response, there has to be some space for thought of like, you know, how, like how do we respond to this, to, to this particular event? You know, yes, um, there are, the Rebbe said things about other similar events or events that have similarities, and there are things to learn from them, but there certainly-

39:14 Speaker 1 Right

39:14 Speaker 2 ... there, there certainly has to be room for introspection as well. And-

39:18 Speaker 1 Yeah

39:19 Speaker 2 ... and like, like put it this way, like I, it's, it, you know, like, uh, I, I, and I, I really wanna be careful. I, I, and as much as anybody pays attention to my opinion, you know-

39:30 Speaker 1 Right

39:31 Speaker 2 ... I, I, I, I, I love the idea of putting on tefillin with people. I did it for many years of my life. I still do it today when the opportunity presents itself. I, I, I think, I think there's a beautiful thing to it, and like, espe- you know, you can go past the cynical kind of like what's a big deal, and like, you know, there's a beautiful thing to it, and it means a lot to the people that are doing it. And probably means a lot to the soldiers as well when they see people doing it for them, at least for many soldiers. I'm sure, I'm sure it means something. Um, and on the spiritual level, what it accomplishes, you know-

40:01 Speaker 1 Right

40:01 Speaker 2 ... I, I, I don't, I don't fathom it, but it could be immense, and it must be immense. But to me as a individual, I feel like there has to be a s- a room for within the, within the context of who I am as a Lubavitcher and just as a person, there has to be a space for a thoughtful kind of figuring out what happened and what do I do about it. Like, to me, like all I think about is like what does this mean for not only Lubavitch identity but Jewish identity going forward? You know, past this war, which God willing will, will, will be, will, will be, will be, uh, handled and completed in the best way possible for Israel and for the people in Israel, uh, and for Jews and as a whole. But past that war, you know, what does it mean to be as, to, to, to be, to be a Jew in this new environment? You know, it feels like, it feels like the so many assumptions that I had growing up of what kind of world and how different it was to what kind of world I was growing up in and how different it was to the world of my grandparents and great-grandparents, so many of those assumptions have been challenged fundamentally.

41:19 Speaker 1 Right.

41:20 Speaker 2 A- and, and as, and, and I feel like may- maybe it's not the time for that yet. Maybe the time right now, maybe the only thing to think about now is how I can help those who are, like you said, are on the front lines, and what, what sacrifice can I find for that, you know, to, uh, in that, in that direction. But I also feel like, you know, that, that, that clap or that, that knock that so many of us felt, you know, over Simchat Torah was, was also... It wasn't just an altruistic feeling for those suffering in Israel.

41:51 Speaker 1 Yeah.

41:52 Speaker 2 Although that was part of it for sure. A lot of it was like, "Wait a second. We don't live in 1920." And yet, you know, we kinda do, you know?

42:02 Speaker 1 Right.

42:03 Speaker 2 A- and so like I feel like a lot of thought has to go in that direction, um, of like what does it mean for me? What does it mean for me raising my children? What does it mean for my community going forward? You know, it cannot be business as usual. You know, I, I don't know. I, I, I, I don't, I don't know.

42:22 Speaker 1 Well, I, I, I think that's true. I, I mean, I know, I, I know that's true, actually. Like if I-

42:27 Speaker 2 Right

42:27 Speaker 1 ... if you look at Jewish history, I, I think, you know, obviously we've had, you know, the warrior class of Jews from, you know, going back a long way, but, but I think on a deeper level, the, the only thing that's allowed us to even get to this point today was w- wa- was the fact that we, regardless of what was going on, we, we remained proudly Jewish and, and even openly Jewish, um, even when that meant, you know, the most horrific things in response to that, but And I think that's something that we, we always have to be challenging ourselves to understand what that means for us, right? Is, is for somebody who grew up, let's say the way we grew up, is, is wearing a yarmulke and tzitzit and walking to shul on Shabbos, is that, is that proudly Jewish or is that, is that what's comfortable because that's what we were brought up in? Is that what we know?

43:42 Speaker 2 Hmm.

43:44 Speaker 1 Um, you know, again, I, I'm asking the questions. I don't know what the answer to that is, but I feel like, I feel like, um, I think stepping out of that comfort zone to me is, is the biggest thing. Regardless if a soldier was given orders or not, n-nobody is in their comfort zone right now.

44:06 Speaker 2 Hmm.

44:08 Speaker 1 Right? So even if we have our marching orders is, is going... But let's just even take tefillin campaign, for example. Is going back to the same 10 Jews that you put on tefillin with every time there's a war in Israel, is that stepping out of your comfort zone or is there a way to, to maybe accomplish that as a soldier who got orders, but, but now how do I do that and s- and step out of my comfort zone too? Or, you know, once, once life slowly fades back to normal, whenever that might be, so to speak, do we fall back into the, "Well, I'm, I have a beard and I have a yarmulke and I have tzitzit, so this is me being proudly Jewish." Or are we convincing ourselves of that when in reality that's just going through the motions 'cause that's what we've done our whole life and, and if, if that's the case, how do we, how do we step out of that and how do we, how do we feel that same discomfort, so to speak, as, as those who are sacrificing and have sacrificed throughout Jewish history in order for us to, to feel any level of comfort in anything that we do in regards to Judaism? Um-

45:23 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:24 Speaker 1 And again, I think it falls back onto me as there's, there's nothing to protect. There's nothing to defend, there's nothing to protect if there aren't Jews who are proud to be Jewish.

45:35 Speaker 2 Hmm.

45:36 Speaker 1 If there's not a Jewish way of life that, you know... And I think those two things work hand in hand, and if we're gonna learn something from it, maybe, maybe that's what it is. I don't know.

45:46 Speaker 2 Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, and I think it's important to, to clarify that... I, I mean, or tell me if I'm understanding you correctly.

45:54 Speaker 1 Yeah.

45:54 Speaker 2 That when you talk about discomfort, you're not saying to seek discomfort, like, so that you could say that you're uncomfortable, like, you know, like the, like the avoid of being discomfort. What you're saying is, is that if you appreciate the moment that you're in, it's an inherently uncomfortable time.

46:11 Speaker 1 Right.

46:11 Speaker 2 The, the discomfort doesn't come from that, uh, you know, you're deciding to feel d- uncomfortable-

46:17 Speaker 1 Right

46:17 Speaker 2 ... for the sake of solidarity.

46:18 Speaker 1 Sure.

46:19 Speaker 2 It's, it's, it's discomfort from acknowledging that, you know, yesterday is no more and, and reality of yesterday is also no more. And, um, we live maybe not, I don't know if you can call it a new time, but a time where everything feels new, and everything, you know, maybe 'cause this has been li-- Maybe this, maybe this has always been here and we just haven't noticed it. But, but it's, you know, we live in a new reality, let's say. We live in a new reality, and that's very un-- that's inherently uncomfortable, right? Newness and everything kind of shifting out from underneath your feet is inherently uncomfortable and, and, and full of discomfort. And I think that's-

46:58 Speaker 1 As long as you're, as long as y- as long as you're, um, as long as you are aware enough to recognize that.

47:10 Speaker 2 Right.

47:10 Speaker 1 Right? Like you could-

47:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, as long as you pay attention.

47:12 Speaker 1 Right. It's like you, you could still bury your head in the sand and then this, this is not in the news at some point, or this is not something that we're feeling so strongly at some point, and then-

47:20 Speaker 2 Right

47:20 Speaker 1 ... and then we convince ourselves again, "Oh, everything's fine again, and nothing changed from a month ago," or... Right. So as long as you have that awareness and that introspection that we keep talking about, then I think that's absolutely the case.

47:39 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you-

47:43 Speaker 1 And I think, and I think, I think it's, it's the questions. I mean, you said it at the beginning, right? Is like I, I, I'm, I'm certainly not qualified enough to have all the answers. I'm not smart enough to have all the answers. But I think like, like most of the Jewish people right now, and, um, I think these are some of the things that are going through all of our minds and, you know, I think sometimes the human nature is to kind of push the thoughts aside, just wait for it all to pass. And I think-

48:14 Speaker 2 Yeah

48:14 Speaker 1 ... I think there is always an opportunity to, to have some good come out of whatever, whatever evil or bad might be in front of us, and this is obviously evil on a, on a whole different level. But I think it's important that we don't, we don't take-- We don't let this op- Opportunity is not the right word, but we don't let this moment, um, pass us by, and, and we and we make sure that we're, we're truly honoring the sacrifices of the, of s- you know, so many currently and so many who've come before us. And, and, you know, it's our responsibility to make sure that our generation and future generations don't fall into the same, um... I don't know if the word is complacency or, or, you know, getting stuck in that place of comfort or what-whatever the word is. But like that, that doesn't happen by itself just because we think about it. Like this, it takes action, it takes effort, it takes sacrifice. And, um, you know, on a more immediate level, this stuff does matter. I can tell you this firsthand. It does matter to the, to the people who are on the front lines as well. I remember when I was in that situation and, um, you do, you take tremendous strength from seeing that, that there's something that you're going in there to protect.

49:48 Speaker 2 Hmm.

49:48 Speaker 1 Right? Is, is, um, seeing Jews, whether it's in person there on the front lines, now Chabad or not Chabad, wherever it was, seeing tho- seeing those people on the front lines. But also, you know, when you have a moment to scroll on social media, and you can feel that, that energy, and you can feel that u-unity, and you can feel that, can feel that there's, there's a reason why you're about to go, go do what you're, what you're about to do, and it, it's for a good reason, and it means something. And, and if... And, and I think that allows you to feel confident in the result of whatever, whatever happens.

50:34 Speaker 3 Mm.

50:34 Speaker 1 Because, uh, you know it's for, you know it's for a good reason, you know it's for a purpose, and you know it's not gonna go to waste. So I, I, I think we need to make sure that we're taking care of that. And two, and let the soldiers on the ground know that we're with them, and supporting them, and, and showing them that, um, w-we don't take them for granted, and we don't take their sacrifice for granted. And, and then on the flip side, make sure that we not only tell them that, but, but, but live that in our lives, in our communities, in our homes for our families, and our children, and our grandchildren. And I think, I think that's the way forward, at least in my mind.

51:14 Speaker 3 That's all we got, right? Um-

51:16 Speaker 1 Yeah

51:16 Speaker 3 ... you know, uh, we're not... Okay. There, there are people who feel like they have the answers, and God bless them, you know? I, I-

51:25 Speaker 1 Right

51:25 Speaker 3 ... I, I, I, uh, you know, it, it... I, I, I don't know that they're wrong. But, you know, for, for those of us who don't feel like they have all the answers, and, and really in this case, I'm not sure anybody really deep down thinks that they have the answers.

51:37 Speaker 1 Right.

51:38 Speaker 3 Um, you know, I think what, what I'm, what I'm lis- what I'm hearing in the words that you're saying is that, you know, the same way that there needs to be a Judaism worth protecting, and a Jewish life, and a Jewish way of life worth protecting for the soldiers to sacrifice their lives on its behalf, you know, there also needs to be a larger vision that we all have for ourselves and our communities that we go, we go into those spaces of discomfort and questions.

52:08 Speaker 1 Discomfort and questions.

52:09 Speaker 3 Oops. What happened?

52:10 Speaker 1 What was that?

52:11 Speaker 3 The questions that we have, you know, we need to have something that we ask those questions on its behalf. You know, we, when, when, when we, we, we, we recommit ourselves to, to what it, to who it is that we are, and, um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and think of what, what, what that may cost down the line, or how it may not be exactly what we thought it was just a few days ago, um, and, and realize that it's going to be, it's going to be a process of, of questioning, of, of find- of going to places of deep, deep discomfort. But there's a point in it. There's a point in that discomfort.

52:52 Speaker 1 Right.

52:52 Speaker 3 Is to come out on the other side in a stronger place, and in a place of, uh, of, of eternal belief, right? And to me at least as, you know, in my private... And I shouldn't say private, 'cause I don't know if I'm speaking from my most private place right now. But on a personal level, you know, to me, that's what the Lubavitch identity in this kind of situation means to me, which is that, you know, there is, there is something that, that, that, that re-resonates deeply with me about, uh, this internal unshakable belief in, in, in, in, in God, in the Torah, and the Jewish people, and, and, and, um, just this, you know, this positive framework of, of seeing it as the most treasured thing, um, in God's eyes and in, and in our own eyes. And, you know, that kind of makes, that kind of makes the questions even more important, you know? Th-this is what we're asking the questions for. This is what we are going through the discomfort for, you know? Uh, it's not that I... Y-you know, the, the, the Lubavitch in me, the Lubavitcher in me doesn't give me all the answers, but it makes the questions worth asking, if that makes sense.

54:09 Speaker 1 Right.

54:09 Speaker 3 Yeah.

54:09 Speaker 1 No, I, I think that's spot on.

54:11 Speaker 3 Yeah. So anyway, I know you gotta go. Um-

54:13 Speaker 1 Yeah

54:13 Speaker 3 ... I appreciate your time, Leibel. And, uh-

54:16 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Thanks for having me

54:16 Speaker 3 ... whatever, whatever you decide to do, um, I wish you best of luck, and, um-

54:20 Speaker 1 Appreciate it

54:21 Speaker 3 ... we, we should hear good news. All the best.

54:23 Speaker 1 Amen. I mean, I think... I'll just end off with this. I, you know-

54:27 Speaker 3 Please

54:27 Speaker 1 ... we're speaking about it, but I think... Well, it's been a little over an hour now, but I think, I think wherever we are, whoever's listening to this, um, you know, uh, for me, having been there personally, and, and, um, you know, trying to put myself back in, in the shoes of the people who are, who are about to go into battle, I think, I think, you know, where... Take, take a second tonight and, and just reflect on, on what these people are gonna be doing on our behalf, and hold your families close, hold your, hold your kids close. Um, you know, it's things that we take for granted, and, uh, many people who may be thousands of miles away if we're here in America, but are absolutely our brothers and sisters, and, and our families are... you know, don't have that opportunity to, to do that with their families tonight. And, um, you know, like you said, hopefully we, we hear good news soon, and, and Israel can accomplish its, its objectives and, and have mission success with the minimal amount of lives lost as possible, and, um, we should only hear good news.

55:45 Speaker 3 Amen. Amen. Thank you again, Leibel.

55:47 Speaker 1 Thank you.

55:47 Speaker 3 For your service. Bye-bye. The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.