Ep. 3 // "Chinuch vs Shlichus" with Rabbi Shmuel Wagner

00:00 Speaker 1 Spiritually, I know that I'm not lacking anything in terms of fulfilling a kavana and a shlichus by being a teacher. I would tell myself that this is the way Hashem made me. I'm meant to be doing this. This is my shlichus.

00:13 Speaker 2 Welcome to Homesick for Lubavitch, a podcast where we explore Lubavitch identity in the year 2023. My name is Bentzi Offson, and I will be your host. Let's begin. Alrighty, so, uh, we're live again with, uh, Rabbi Shmuel Wagner. He's, uh, he's not gonna let me call him rabbi, but he is a rabbi, and he's a melamed in, um, yeshivas. What's, what's the name?

00:44 Speaker 1 Babshiva Yeshiva.

00:44 Speaker 2 The Babshiva Ocean Parkway. And, um, I met Shmuel, uh, probably a year and a half ago by now. Or is it two years already? No, it's a-

00:54 Speaker 1 About-

00:54 Speaker 2 It's about a year and a half.

00:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

00:55 Speaker 2 Was it two summers ago?

00:57 Speaker 1 La- this past summer. A year plus ago.

00:59 Speaker 2 Yeah, a year plus ago, uh, we met for a video that we were shooting for Bonnie Olam, which I'm sure quite a few people listening to this podcast saw that video. Uh, a very moving moment of Shmuel meeting Rabbi Bachner with his son, who was born, was it two weeks or three weeks before?

01:15 Speaker 1 Three days.

01:15 Speaker 2 Three days before. My God. Yeah, man, that was, that was a moment. That was, that was a real moment. Um, yeah, and I've since, uh, met, met the rest of your family. I met your wife, I met your son, and, uh, we've had some very interesting conversations that, you know, because of the, the topic of the video that we were filming was, uh, you know, the topic was j- was, was supposed to be and was about, um, infertility and the struggle of infertility. But went into a very different direction or, or a deeper level of that lies behind the struggle of infertility, which I found fascinating and very, very relevant to the subject of this podcast, which is Lubavitch identity and how we, how we, how it evolves and how we evolve with it. But, uh, so I asked Shmuel to come on this podcast to talk a little bit about both his journey and his, you know, h- his and their struggle with infertility and what they learned along the way, and how it's affected them and shaped them and shaped their identity. And I'm sure the conversation will go some other interesting directions as well. Um, but, you know, why don't you describe a little bit, you know, who you are, where you grew up, and, uh, what you're up to today.

02:28 Speaker 1 So I grew up in Toronto. Um, went to yeshiva in Toronto, Zal, and year in Eretz Israel. classic system. Um, I actually started teaching right after my official, uh, time in yeshiva was over, meaning before I got married. Um, I got married during the first year that I was teaching. So I went, I flew out to Kollel for a year, and then I went back to teaching in, started teaching in Babshiva Ocean Parkway.

03:01 Speaker 2 Even before you got married?

03:02 Speaker 1 No, before I got married, I taught in Marston, Beiter in Marston, and I got married during the year right before Pesach. So I f- didn't finish the year. I went-- We, we m- moved to Carnites. I went straight to Kollel, and that was... So started Kollel right after Pesach, so basically the next year, right before the summer was when I finished Kollel and then that s- that Elul I started teaching.

03:28 Speaker 2 What pulled you into teaching before you got married? I mean, y- did you get married at an older age?

03:32 Speaker 1 No, not particularly.

03:33 Speaker 2 So you started teaching earlier. It wasn't that you got married later.

03:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

03:36 Speaker 2 So what, what pulled you into teaching?

03:38 Speaker 1 I've been teaching-- I mean, both my parents were teachers, my grandparents were teachers. It's definitely like, you know, officially in my DNA, officially in my genes, that's for sure. But not obviously because anyone told me I have to be a teacher because my parents and grandparents were teachers. I always felt since I even, since like I was in... I mean, I do have a memory from fourth gra- fifth, fifth grade where, um, I taught a pair of Navi to the rest of my class 'cause, um-

04:06 Speaker 2 Right

04:06 Speaker 1 ... a teacher obviously saw that that was an opportunity, and he was probably right. Um, so I definitely had something about that, about that since I was a kid. But, uh, even like in Zal, before it's an official occupation, like, you know, running Mishmar or, um, learning with like younger, like tutoring, I always had-- I was always doing something. I remember when I was in Zal, I really-- There was one year I really wanted to learn Rambam, and I realized that the only way I'm gonna get myself to really learn Rambam is if I make a share.

04:34 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:34 Speaker 1 So I made a Rambam share for my fellow Zal Bachner. So there's definitely something about me that like, I know something very well, and I give something over. Uh, I'm sorry. I know something very well, and I connect to something very well when I give it over.

04:49 Speaker 2 Mm-hmm.

04:49 Speaker 1 Um, so when I was a el- a shli- when I was a shliach, I was, uh, I was doing some teaching in some form in, in Mesifta. When I was a Eltar Bachner in Zal, uh, dorm counselor in Zal, I was also a teacher in the Beiter, a substitute teacher. And, um, yeah, like it was very natural for me. Like it was, it was a no-- Like I d- I don't know if I ever had to make a conscious decision like, "Should I become a teacher or not?" I think it was always like a matter of when's it gonna be my first official job, you know?

05:18 Speaker 2 So, um, talking about, about going to, going straight into teaching, you know, it's very interesting because I've had a number of conversations where, you know, the question is, you went into business. Did you ever like, like was it that you weren't going into shlichus and that you were going to business? Did you first wanna go into shlichus? I think it's an interesting question to ask in this regard as well was it seems like you're pretty convinced that you're going to teaching. Was it ever like, "No, no, I should go into sh- into shlichus," like more traditional Chabad shlichus or?

05:50 Speaker 1 Um, I never imagined myself ending up in a Chabad house. Not that I never thought of it. I remember actually once when I was in Zal having a conversation with my shliach in yeshiva- Um, he was, you know, one of these, like, very Lubavitcher guys, and today he's on shlichus, very popular, you know, very successful. And we were having this con- conversation about shlichus, and I said, like, "I cannot see myself ending up a rabbi in a Chabad house. Like, no way." And I explained to him why, a few different reasons. And he said, "No, it's not true. Like, y- everyone has to go on shlichus. It's like, it's, um, it's what Rebbe wants, and even if it's against your nature, and you're telling me what you think, like, I'm... Like you think, uh, I'm telling you, Shmuel, I think about myself as a shliach and I'm petrified." I'm looking, I don't believe him, like, for a second. I'm not fourth grade. I'm zal. Like, you know, you're, you're born to be a shliach, like, no doubt about it. I mean, again, I'm not judging. Like, could be indeed deep down, like he knows himself, and he had his concerns and worries. But, like, I, I never even thought that it would be possible f- not possible, like physically possible, but like emotionally possible, or why in the world would I ever go, um, to become a, a shliach, the meaning in a Chabad house. At the same time, two things: number one is that

07:05 Speaker 1 I'm very aware of... First of all, yes, it's a big hot topic, teachers being shluchim, not being shluchim, especially in New York, in Crown Heights. Kinus every year, the, the controversy arises again. And two things: number one is that in terms of the, um, the spirituality of it, I'm fully convinced, I don't need to be convinced that teachers are shluchim. When I meet my friends who are on shlichus, my line to them is, "Yeah, don't worry, every, every shliach's a teacher." Like, uh- Like-

07:32 Speaker 2 I mean, does, does it, does, does it, does it bother you on any level? Like, like, like th- you're-- like you didn't have the personality to go on shlichus? Like, like if only I could have had it, I would like to go, and I basically, like I'm honest with myself and I resign myself to being a teacher, or it's like full on, no, this is what I'm meant to be doing?

07:52 Speaker 1 Ladder.

07:52 Speaker 2 The ladder.

07:53 Speaker 1 Never, never like thought-

07:55 Speaker 2 You're good with it.

07:56 Speaker 1 Tot- beyond good with it. Like, and again, both because, um, spiritually I know that I'm not lacking anything in terms of fulfilling a kavvana and a shlichus by being a teacher. Um, you know, as teachers we're-- we learn the letters and the sichas where the Rebbe's talking about teachers or to teachers and, you know, the famous story with the Friediker Rebbe that, uh, he told a teacher that you're doing Hashem's work, am ha'olam, am Yisrael. Um, but then also physically because, like, even let's say if I wasn't, uh, um, a teacher and, you know, I ended up being a businessman, and then I would tell myself that this is the way Hashem made me, I'm meant to be doing this, this is my shlichus, um, then it would be the same thing. So I don't know how I would feel in such a situation if my, like, darshaviness would be my guil-- like would make me feel guilty that, no, I should get involved, I should be doing some sort of sit-in or if Rebbe was find a shliach that I could help. Maybe. I don't know what I would be in such a situation, but definitely with this situation, it's like both physically this is how I'm, my nature is how I'm meant to be, and this is Baruch Hashem the talent that I was given, so therefore the shlichus that I have, and also spiritually, this is the shlichus.

09:05 Speaker 2 Mm.

09:06 Speaker 1 Also happens to be that I'm, I'm not into fluff at all. And also part of my genes.

09:12 Speaker 2 Well, that's what I was gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you, like, you know, it's, it's all good and s- all well, all... What's the word? It's all, it's all fine and well, the things that you're saying. Like, like I, I understand what you're saying, but we all know that when you were in yeshiva, this is not what, this is not what they preach.

09:33 Speaker 1 Right.

09:33 Speaker 2 Right? This is not what you hear. So like, like you were just so secure in it from the get-go, like, "Yeah, this is me. Like, you guys do your thing, talk about what you want," like go, you know, go full harang shlichus, but I know what I'm doing. It never like, it never got to you, like-

09:47 Speaker 1 100% never got to me. And, um, and I'm very vocal about that. Like even now, I, I do have a lot of friends who are teachers and still do have that either guilt or, um, a lot of my friends, a lot of teachers, again, especially in Crown Heights, you know, there's hundreds of teachers between all the mosdos and the, again, specifically like every year by the Kinus it becomes a topic again that we're not invited to the Kinus, and the year that they invite us it's just because they need to fill up the seats in the corners, et cetera, et cetera, all the, all the talk. And, you know, and, and, and some, and some people do feel, like, put down by it. Some of my friends, teachers do feel put down by it, like, "What's going on? How come we're treated like second class?" You know.

10:26 Speaker 2 Right.

10:26 Speaker 1 You know, say first shlichim, the Rebbe sa- insisted that the teachers also be put in, right? All the, all the d- all the, all the comments, like all the-

10:32 Speaker 2 Right

10:32 Speaker 1 ... you know, insert, uh, insert, uh, your, your slogan here.

10:36 Speaker 2 Yes.

10:36 Speaker 1 You know, like. So, um, and, and, and I, again, like wh- when it comes up in conversation, I'm pretty vocal about it that like, "What, what do you care, really? Why do you care?" So again, there's the, there's the people need support, people need, uh, people need to be recognized, people need to be acknowledged, and that's part of it. Like, people feel like, "How come we're not getting acknowledged?" In th- in this specific, you know, context of not being invited to the Kinus Hashluchim or whatever, and I get that. People have that need. Um, but it, it definitely shouldn't be from, like, that I need that to know that I'm doing the right thing.

11:10 Speaker 2 Right.

11:11 Speaker 1 Y- you should be knowing that you're doing the right thing. We're, we're living in a generation, I mean, this is entering like a whole topic about teaching. I don't know if that's where you wanna go, but-

11:18 Speaker 2 We're gonna go. We're, we're just gonna go.

11:21 Speaker 1 We're Baruch Hashem in a generation where Kinus has picked itself past that anyone who didn't have anything else to do became a teacher, and-

11:28 Speaker 2 In what, in what, in what sense? Like that, that, that people are recognizing that? The teachers are recognizing that? What do you mean that, that like-

11:34 Speaker 1 Two things.

11:34 Speaker 2 Yeah.

11:34 Speaker 1 Number one is that y- you as a teach- uh, uh, uh, the school will not hire someone that just, that is not qualified enough on a basic level, and he's just being a teacher because he has nothing else to do, or he's waiting for a new, uh, shlichus to open up or whatever. So the schools will not hire them. And number two is the generation won't hire him, which means he won't last. Definitely not in Crown Heights', uh, classroom. The-

11:56 Speaker 2 Right

11:56 Speaker 1 ... it's, it's tough to be a teacher. It's very tough to be a teacher. You're not gonna last. It's, uh, it's... You have to be on your toes. You have to really know what you're doing. And again, obviously, there's new teachers and they, and they pick it up and, you know, and we go to training and courses and all that.

12:09 Speaker 2 Right.

12:09 Speaker 1 But if, if you're literally not tracked for it, and you're literally just there because you didn't find anything else and you're waiting for shlichus, you're not gonna last. So that's a good thing. Like this, the, the generation has weeded out that option.

12:22 Speaker 2 Right. W- what you're saying is we don't see any more teaching both from the side of the teacher and from the side of the school that like it's a means to another end, like an in-between, you know?

12:32 Speaker 1 Right.

12:33 Speaker 2 Like we just have to get through it to get to the other side. But it's-

12:35 Speaker 1 To get to the other side or just 'cause I, I have nothing else.

12:37 Speaker 2 Right.

12:38 Speaker 1 This is-

12:38 Speaker 2 Right. No, but the school, the school says like, "We have to take this seriously." Like it's not, it's not a joke.

12:43 Speaker 1 Sure. Sure.

12:43 Speaker 2 It's not like, it's not like, uh, you know, and, and not that they thought it was a joke, but like, you know, whatever, it's not that important. We just have to kinda get, get, get through it, and you're saying it's no longer like that.

12:53 Speaker 1 Absolutely. In the past, uh, I mean, again, it's like this is a known thing for anyone who's doing any sort of studies or whatever into what's going on in Chinuch Lubavitch, and, um, and I'm saying in elementary school specifically, and in the last 15 years or so, whatever the official number is, it's been picked up tremendously. It's literally quality Chinuch. You look at, you know, even the, the, I'm saying both the big schools in like Tyro or other communities, large established communities, as well as the new small schools starting up all over. Quality people, quality Chinuch, quality agendas, goals, visions. Like anyone who's in Chinuch now is passionate about being in Chinuch to one extent or another, is investing their time, their effort into it. Um, again, there's also the fact that there's like on a larger level, there's resources and courses and, uh, training that I wasn't around 15, 20 years ago in that, in this scene, but I don't think it existed those days. So the quality has been picked up, and again, my, my, going back, so my point is that anyone who's teaching now, you, you, you wanna be teaching. Of course, it's hard, and you, you have those days and very often where you come home like, "Why am I doing this?" And, but at the end of the day, you, you know why you're doing it, because this is w- th-this is what you feel is important, and you have a passion to Chinuch. You see the, the, the

14:20 Speaker 1 power of what you're doing. And again, both on a physical level 'cause this is your talent, and on a spiritual level 'cause you know this is your shlichus.

14:28 Speaker 2 How do, how do, how do teachers deal with the age-old problem of the just chronic inability to pay, like to pay what a teacher needs or should be, or deserves? Like, 'cause, 'cause you mentioned that, you know, people are going into it no longer for, you know, just to get through and to kind of wait for a better opportunity. Like this is opportunity. How do teachers see it as the opportunity when, um, it doesn't seem yet, or maybe I'm wrong about this, it doesn't seem yet that society or the community as a whole actually puts their money where their mouth is when it comes to recognizing how important teachers are. Yeah, I mean, I think most people believe that teachers are very important, but when it comes to actually compensating teachers, right, and letting them live a respectable life, not a lavish life, we're s- we aren't there yet. So how, how do you deal with that? Or how do teachers deal with that? Uh, and yeah.

15:29 Speaker 1 Like, generally speaking, it's a struggle. It's a known struggle.

15:32 Speaker 2 Right.

15:32 Speaker 1 And, you know, it, and it's one of the, uh, uh, you know, reading articles that people put out both by teachers, fellow teachers, as well as like, you know, so to speak, professionals that are analyzing the system. I think there's two main, um, complaints or two main issues, challenges that teachers face that they always bring up is the money and the community support.

15:54 Speaker 2 Right.

15:54 Speaker 1 Um, and community support, support also goes into like the principal's support and the parent support that's, you know, on a smaller scale, but generally speaking, community support. And yeah, so the, the, the simple answer is that it's a challenge for everyone and, you know, some teachers are better at managing their money, and they have, and they know what to do on the side and how to hustle and, um, depending obviously on whatever any specific teacher's wife does for a living. Um, and some teachers are literally struggling month to month. And also, again, I think with the general resources and, and, and, uh, training that goes into teachers, there's also, I, I don't know, I've only been officially teaching for six, seven years, so I don't know how long. I don't, I can't contrast it to 10 years ago and 15 years ago, but there's a lot of programs for teachers that help them out when it comes to Yom Tov. Um, there's bonuses from, from the school, but also from different organizations, global organizations, and then there's some gemachs that are open specifically s- specifically for teachers. So there is a little bit of attention given to that issue, and that's the more detailed answer. But it's a challenge, and it's part of, I mean, shluchim who have Chabad also have challenges-

17:07 Speaker 2 Right

17:07 Speaker 1 ... you know, with fundraising and-

17:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I, I, I wasn't asking it so much to be nosy. It was more like, it was more just to kind of emphasize that, you know, when you said that, that things have changed where school is more selective for a teacher and the job is more selective in the sense that you're not gonna last if, if you're not good at it, doesn't mean that somehow the job has now become this... People are, are-- You're saying that more qualified people are, are looking for this job, and the job is more selective than it used to be, but it's not that the job is more lucrative than it used to be, right? It's not. The people, people are, peop- more people are high, more highly qualified people are coming to it not because necessarily it's paying a lot more. Maybe it's paying a little bit more, but it's not become like this lucrative job. It's for the cause. It's for the, it's for the inyan, right? I just wanted to, I wanted to make sure that, that, that I understood that. Like it's, I mean, I'm pr- I was pretty sure that was the case, but I mean, like we're ta- we're talking here about, we're talking here about a cause.

18:07 Speaker 1 Sure.

18:07 Speaker 2 We're talking here about a cause. We're not talking here about like some career or some lucrative career. That, that, that hasn't changed and probably will never change.

18:13 Speaker 1 Sure. I definitely, I mean, again, I wasn't around, but definitely from what everyone says, definitely teachers get paid better now than they did 15 years ago.

18:20 Speaker 2 Right.

18:22 Speaker 1 There are some meissas that were known not to pay or to be behind the payment and are now either better at it or completely good at it. But you're right. Comparing a teacher to any other trade, now you're not going into becoming-- you're not becoming a teacher to be-- to get-- to make money. No.

18:37 Speaker 2 Right.

18:37 Speaker 1 There are opportunities. There are opportunities for growth, and now, you know, teaching coaching, uh, uh, teaching-- teacher coaching is very popular and, you know, you can make a, a decent parnasa from that. In, in other words, a, a professional teacher who's been teaching enough years and who knows what he's doing and can-- knows how to present it and to, and to pass it on could make a little bit of a parnasa, extra parnasa from that. Um, but in the teaching itself, no, of course, you're not-

19:01 Speaker 2 Right

19:01 Speaker 1 ... you're not becoming a teacher to become rich.

19:02 Speaker 2 No, 'cause I, I think what... Well, let me just turn on the light. I mean, the-- this isn't a podcast about teaching, but the reason, the reason I'm, the reason I'm talking about it is because what's interesting what you said is that h- more highly qualified people are looking to teach. Meaning there are people like yourself who are deciding, "I'm not teaching because I'm twenty-five and I need to get a job, and this is the most available to me, but this is what I wanna do." You're saying that that's a trend where there are more people who want to do this. It's a new generation, you said, of people that want to teach.

19:42 Speaker 1 Sure. And-

19:43 Speaker 2 And, and, and that's despite the fact that, that the job hasn't fundamentally become a easy job or a lucrative job, right? So it's not like this job, the job... It's not that the job has changed, it's that the generation has changed. That's what I'm trying to get at.

19:58 Speaker 1 Sure.

19:59 Speaker 2 Right? Like, and of course, the job has improved perhaps and, and there, and there's more awareness of what teachers are up against, and there's more support, incrementally more, and there's, there's, there's other resources, I understand. But, but fundamentally, this is, this is a tough job. And fundamentally, it, it's, in, in terms of material rewards, it's still lacking in that, in that regard. And yet you're saying that there are more people in this generation, um, who want to teach because they, because they want to. Not because they need to, but because they want to.

20:31 Speaker 1 Sure.

20:31 Speaker 2 Why do, why do you think that is?

20:37 Speaker 1 So there's two elements to it.

20:39 Speaker 2 Uh, uh, well, let, let's say-

20:39 Speaker 1 Yeah

20:39 Speaker 2 ... let me add to the question. Are, are we, are we talking about Lubavitch or in general, like in general? Like, what are you referring to?

20:46 Speaker 1 I, I don't know about in general. I'm not-

20:48 Speaker 2 Right. So you're referring to Lubavitch?

20:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. No, I'm just talking about... And, and again, even Lubavitch, I'm talking about what I see in Crown Heights.

20:52 Speaker 2 Right.

20:52 Speaker 1 You know, guys I know, younger, getting married, looking...

20:56 Speaker 2 Right

20:56 Speaker 1 ... before they're married even, like-

20:57 Speaker 2 Okay

20:57 Speaker 1 ... just like with me, but after they finish yeshiva and whatever.

20:59 Speaker 2 No, that makes sense. That's a world that you know.

21:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

21:00 Speaker 2 I just wanted to-

21:00 Speaker 1 Sure

21:00 Speaker 2 ... I wanted to make sure that, like, we're talking about personal experience, not like, not general global experience.

21:06 Speaker 1 Right.

21:06 Speaker 2 Which I, which I find more interesting, frankly-

21:08 Speaker 1 Yeah

21:08 Speaker 2 ... the personal experience. So, so why do you think Lubavitch teachers are... Why do you think more people are choosing teaching today as opposed to falling into it by necessity? What, what's happening?

21:22 Speaker 1 So there's one element is what I said before, that the system doesn't allow that for anymore. Doesn't allow people just fall in, like-

21:28 Speaker 2 Right

21:29 Speaker 1 ... "Oh, I have nothing else to do, so let me teach."

21:30 Speaker 2 Right.

21:30 Speaker 1 It's no. You're, again, you're gonna come in, and both from the kids are gonna tear you up in fifty seconds, and, and the principal is not gonna allow you in in the first place. He's gonna have an interview with you, and he's gonna see... He's, you know, you're gonna give a model lesson, and very quickly everyone's gonna realize that this is not necessarily gonna work out.

21:45 Speaker 2 Right.

21:45 Speaker 1 So that's first of all. It's just on a, on a, in a more, I guess-

21:49 Speaker 2 Right. But the reason many times they were taking teachers like that is 'cause they didn't have anybody better coming. Like, they, they, they, they had no leverage, right?

21:55 Speaker 1 Right.

21:55 Speaker 2 There was no one good coming, so they had to take any, any yutz who just fell into it, right?

22:00 Speaker 1 Sure. Right.

22:00 Speaker 2 So, so I think we have to get to the second reason.

22:02 Speaker 1 Exactly. So the second reason is, is obvious when you see the pa- when you see the, you know, the history. When you zoom in and go what happened thirty, I mean, forty, thir- thirty, forty years, is that w- why-- where were all the qualified people going thirty years ago, forty years ago? Yeshivas.

22:16 Speaker 2 Right.

22:16 Speaker 1 Right? They were opening up a Chabad House. They were opening up a center. They were going, you know, moving out. And if you were, uh, you know, a, a sidish and you knew what you were saying and you knew how to give something over, you were, you were put on a plane somewhere on a one-way ticket. You know?

22:33 Speaker 2 You were sent far away. If you were, if you were capable-

22:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

22:36 Speaker 2 ... you were sent to go away.

22:37 Speaker 1 Exactly. Sent-

22:39 Speaker 2 All right. It's not very nice. We're having this conversation in Crown Heights. There are a lot of good people that stayed in Crown Heights.

22:43 Speaker 1 Of course. But, like, on a, on a n- we're not picking on anyone specific, of course. And-

22:48 Speaker 2 Right

22:48 Speaker 1 ... and, and I wasn't there to even think of anyone specific, but-

22:51 Speaker 2 But a lot of capable people-

22:52 Speaker 1 As a concept

22:52 Speaker 2 ... a lot of capable people were sent away. There's no question about it. A lot of people that could have contributed to the yeshivas, to the schools were sent away.

22:59 Speaker 1 Right.

22:59 Speaker 2 No question about it.

23:00 Speaker 1 There's another element to it which I'm not, I'm not, uh, uh, uh, enough familiar with to be able to say. I'm just repeating something that someone who is a little more in on this told me, that the one area of... You know, uh, let's, you know, go rewind before we get back to where we are today. What was going on then, and again, I don't know the politics. I'm not one of these, uh, inside people in Chabad that know exactly what was going on with who and what. That the one area of Chabad that the Rebbe, so to speak, did not have full control over was the yeshivas, was yeshivas, even in Crown Heights. I mean, I'll tell you how the Rebbe started to be his meissas. We know that. And again, I'm not going into politics. I work in Lubavitch Yeshiva. Every day I walk by the Rashag's office, so, and I've- ... and, and, and yeah, I'll say this, I actually go to the Rashag's, uh, kever every time I go to the Ohel.

23:49 Speaker 2 Oh, interesting.

23:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, uh, you know, the... So-

23:54 Speaker 2 You feel a connection to the Rashag through your, through your work?

23:58 Speaker 1 On an employer, on an emp- E- even in an employer-employee level, yes. And a little bit learn- reading about the Rashag and hearing about the Rashag and seeing what kind of life he lived and, you know, what he had to go through with his wife and his son and, you know, his, his strained family life, and he had to kinda give away his family life to be a chassid of the Rebbe.

24:19 Speaker 2 Right.

24:19 Speaker 1 And, you know, uh, uh-

24:21 Speaker 2 He had to put a-aside a lot of his ego to be a chassid of the Rebbe.

24:23 Speaker 1 For sure. And I'm not, and as much as I wasn't there in the, in the mems, I definitely was not there in the yuds, so I do not have any form of clue what was going on in Yud Aleph and how the Rashag really felt, and if he was really a Inbrigevan from the beginning, I don't know, and it really doesn't, doesn't concern me. Like I said, I'm not into the fluff. Um, but what we see as an outsider, I'm not, I don't, I'm not the Rashag's, uh, uh, you know, psychoanalyst. What we see, what we see from Rashag's behavior was a tremendous chassid.

24:51 Speaker 2 Right.

24:51 Speaker 1 Tremendous chassid of the Rebbe.

24:53 Speaker 2 Right.

24:53 Speaker 1 So the, the fact that I work in his yeshiva, I literally walk by his office every day, multiple times a day, his old office, and in Ocean Parkway, and also from seeing what he, what, what it means to be a chassid for him, yeah, I feel, I do feel a connection to him. So again, I'm s-

25:09 Speaker 2 And that, and that office is empty?

25:10 Speaker 1 No, it's used as the, it's the Tzedakah Hashem office in our-

25:13 Speaker 2 Right. So, okay.

25:14 Speaker 1 Yeah.

25:14 Speaker 2 So it, you know that

25:27 Speaker 1 so you s- so you're saying that, that back in the day the Rebbe didn't have control over Chinuch?

25:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. So again, so this is what I was told. Again, I'm not... I don't know this stuff enough to be able to say with a certainty, but I was told this by someone who knows that if you analyze what was going on in Lubavitch, in the, in the Lameds, in the Mems, and even maybe the early Nuns, the Rebbe was never-- Like, there was that opposition almost to give over the reins of Chinuch. Even in '77, what was going on t- with the Bochurim to the Rebbe. The Rebbe would be able to say something and say, "This is wha--", and, and then that's what happened. The Rebbe would snap his finger and sh- and people would move their families across the ocean.

26:03 Speaker 1 Right.

26:03 Speaker 2 Right? And, and, and you know, and, and then all other areas of the, of the Chabad influence, meaning the Rebbe's influence. But somehow Chinuch never w- never became what it could be and what it should be and what the Rebbe wanted it to be until, what this person was telling me, until after Gimmel Tammuz. After Gimmel Tammuz. Now, not right away.

26:20 Speaker 1 Why not? Why not?

26:23 Speaker 2 Why didn't it happen before?

26:24 Speaker 1 Yeah.

26:24 Speaker 2 Again, so this is where politics would go in. I don't... I, I'm not able-

26:28 Speaker 1 Wait. So when the Rebbe was alive, he, he got in the way of Chinuch? That's what this person's saying? No.

26:33 Speaker 2 The Rebbe got in the way of-

26:34 Speaker 1 He w- he wanted Chinuch to be better.

26:35 Speaker 2 Yeah.

26:36 Speaker 1 And nobody was listening to him-

26:37 Speaker 2 Correct

26:37 Speaker 1 ...un- until after Gimmel Tammuz.

26:38 Speaker 2 After Gimmel Tammuz, whether y- we, we could, uh, pinpoint it to conscious like this happened, this happened, this happened, or maybe it was in the way he told to me was, you know, uh, g'dal g- uh, that, uh, Yated beChochui, that, uh, after Gimmel Tammuz the Rebbe's effect was stronger, and all of a sudden... Again, it didn't happen right away on Dalet and Hey, but all of a sudden in the early Samuchs and the late Samuchs, and this is what we're talking about 15, 20 years ago, all of a sudden Chinuch like totally shaped up, totally revamped. Again, I'm talking about at least in elemen- elementaries where I-

27:07 Speaker 1 That's right

27:07 Speaker 2 ...where I work. And now we have solid, solid teaching, solid curriculum, solid teachers, solid principals, solid people involved in Chinuch.

27:16 Speaker 1 Right.

27:16 Speaker 2 So again, so part of it is that, that going back to what I started saying, that now the qualified people are not going, moving out across because, A, there's not enough positions.

27:28 Speaker 1 On Shlichus.

27:28 Speaker 2 On Shlichus. And there's also a certain sense where people see how teaching is a Shlichus.

27:35 Speaker 1 Right.

27:35 Speaker 2 And the spiritual element of it.

27:36 Speaker 1 Right. So, so fascinating. I mean-

27:38 Speaker 2 It was looked at as second-class Shlichus-

27:41 Speaker 1 Yeah

27:41 Speaker 2 ...you know, 20 years ago, and still till today people, a lot of people do still look at it like that, and this is what we were saying before. My friends, some of my friends are still bugged about that.

27:48 Speaker 1 Right.

27:48 Speaker 2 But generally speaking, it's understood, at least in a begrudging way, that it's not a second-class Shlichus.

27:54 Speaker 1 That's fascinating. That's so, so, so interesting. I mean, like, first of all, I have to say it, it's refreshing to hear positive take on Chinuch. Like, you know, my wife was a teacher for, for many years. I've-- You know, so through her, I've heard about teaching, and in general there's always, you know, there's the, the... Maybe it's resigning like you're saying. Maybe it's g- maybe it's kind of simmering down, but there's always been like a very pessimistic kind of take on Chinuch. You know, the schools are trash or the schools are... You know, there's, there's like these chronic issues that just like don't seem to go away, and it's nice to hear like a, you're not saying that everything is hunky dory and everything's fixed, but you s- you're optimistic about it. It's going in the right-- It's trending in the right direction. And, and that's, you know, to hear someone inside, and you're not just there for a year, so that like you're kind of, you know, fresh and haven't yet suffered through it a little bit. You've, you've earned your stripes, and you're, you're very hopeful about it. You know, I think that's fantastic. It's really fantastic to hear, I have to say. Um, it's fantastic to hear. Um, you know, I'd, I'd also say that, you know, what you're talking about is that the last point that you mentioned about, about, you know, what happened after the Rebbe passed away, I mean, it's always you have to tread carefully here because, you

29:12 Speaker 1 know, you say it the wrong way and, and, and people rightfully or wrongfully get upset about it. But like there, you know, there, there's, there's this thing where like... I mean, even think about it like this. When the Rebbe took people into Yechidus, there was only so many people that could come to him, right? Um, when the, when the Rebbe stopped Yechidus and later on started doing dollars, a lot more people could come to the Rebbe, right? The Rebb- In other words, by the Rebbe withdrawing, there's sometimes there was opportunities for other things to happen, right? Um, same thing here almost. Like the, there, there is a possibility, like you said. I mean, what, what else does Yated beChochui mean? That somehow, uh, certain limitations that were there. You know, on a spiritual level, I'm not sure what it means, but like on a practical level, certain limitations that were there, you know, maybe because people felt that when the Rebbe was here, they had to be a Shliach for whatever reason. They want to be part of the Kinus. It was something that, that, that they felt they needed to do, and then with time they don't feel that. And so now Chinuch opens up. Maybe, uh, maybe there's growth that happens through withdrawal, but I don't know. Maybe that's a little bit too, too of a delicate topic to go on. I think, I think another, another way of approaching it is that, you know, what does it say in Chesed L'Avot? I

30:38 Speaker 1 think it's from a Gemara. I'm not sure where it comes from, that, you know, it takes a Talmid 40 years to get to the-- his Rav's kind of perspective, what the Rav is thinking. It takes 40 years. And that's always used to demonstrate the, the, the Merchak, the distance between the Rav and the Talmid, right? The Rav right now sees something In this moment, the Talmud doesn't see it, and now it's gonna take him 40 years, in other words, more than half of his life, to, to, to understand what the Rebbe understands right now. That's, that's, that's h- that's the distance that you have. Like, they're both sitting in the same room, and yet they're 40 years apart, right? Um, and... But there-- But in another sense, it's a very hopeful statement because with time, if you track in that direction, you can get there. It's just gonna take you a lot more time, right? I mean, there's another beautiful story that I once, that I once heard where, like, I think it was Rav Marash or someone that, like, he was, he was sitting on a porch or something and, and someone asked him about what's, what's gonna happen in the future, and he predicted correctly, maybe it was about a war or something, and he was proven to be right, and the person came back and was all in this ball, and the Rebbe said, like, "What's, what's the big deal? Like, I, I, I can see f- I, I s- I sit

31:57 Speaker 1 higher, so I can see further." Right? There's a perspective difference here. The Rebbe saw something the other people didn't, the Chassidim didn't see it, and it took years for them to see what he was talking about. The reason I bring that up is because, you know, in the moment, the Rebbe's talking about so many things, and this is something that I've had... I think I spoke to Rabbi Nevelson about this, and I've spoken to other people about this on the podcast, off the podcast. Like, one of the fundamental challenges of Chassidism in general, I mean, this is... Sholom Malkes was talking about this back in the day, right? Back by, by the Alter Rebbe, but, but we see it very, very openly in this Derech Shvi, um, which is the Rebbe's, the Rebbe's up here demanding X, and, like, and, and then he demands Y, and it just keeps on saying this needs to be done, that needs to be done, and, like, like, it's way beyond the Chassidim's capacity, frankly. You, you-- If you took all the Rebbe's words and tried to fi- fit it into your day, you could be the most devoted person in the world. The physics of time will say this is impossible. So who's the Rebbe talking to, to a wall? It is possible that, you know, the Rebbe's talking on the, on... with, with the, with the perspective and, and, and, and the timeframe that he has, right? What, what he's seeing 40 years down the road, in

33:16 Speaker 1 the moment, your time does not, does not have the space, does not have the, the, the, the, the width to grasp or to handle what the Rebbe's talking about. The Rebbe's talking 40 years down the road. He's not talking about right now. He's talking about 40 years down the road. And so the same thing could be true about, let's say, Chinuch and Shlichus, where, like, you know, y- my guess is if you comb through the Rebbe's Shlichus on paper, you would see that the Rebbe was adamant that Shlichus should be a priority, and Chinuch should be a priority, and something else should be a priority. Like, everything should be a priority, right? But regular people, they can handle maybe one priority. If you they're lucky, two priorities. They can't handle all these priorities. So naturally, the Rebbe talks about all these things, Shlichus took the, everybody's attention, and that's where everybody went, right? That's what... In the moment, that's what they focused on. But with time, as, you know, Arba Shninin, time goes by, and people have time to kinda catch up with, with that perspective. It's like you're saying that suddenly, you know, it's, it's... What is it? It's, uh, 30 years after Gemara Talmuds, cer- probably 40 years since Rebbe spoke on Chinuch, probably more, and people are beginning to say, "Wait a second," like, "Yeah, the Rebbe was right." Like, we see that, like, Shlichus needs to be a, a focus, and Chinuch needs to be a focus, and frankly, if you

34:31 Speaker 1 don't have good Chinuch, you're not gonna have Shlichus for 20 years, right? I mean, Shlichus is already suffering from the fact that Chinuch was so overlooked for so many years. At some point, it catches up with you, and on many fronts, it has caught up with, with Shlichus, right? Like, you know, there are many Shluchim that will tell you that, that they would be-- they would've been much better served with a more solid, robust Chinuch. And so it seems like people today are catching up with it. But it's a very interesting, and I'm going off quite a bit over here, but it's a very interesting way of looking at it because you, you brought up this idea of, like, the time lag, almost like, uh, like it takes years to catch up. It would seem that that's by design. Like, a, a Rebbe and a Chassid are, by definition... Like, a Chassid's always catching up. You're, you're like... And perhaps one of the reasons why, you know, you mentioned the idea of guilt and the idea of, you know, these kind of negative connotations very often get, somehow have wormed their way into, like, you know, a lot of the Bobotcher's conscience where like, you know, I'm not, I'm not up to it. I'm not a guy. I'm a t- I'm nebech a teacher. I'm not a Shliach. Like, if only... A lot of it could be because we feel like we always have to be up to date. Like, we have to be marching

35:46 Speaker 1 in lockstep with what the Rebbe's saying, and it's like, how, how is that possible? He's at least 40 years ahead of you. Like, like, take it easy. Take it easy on yourself. Not, not to relax, but, like, like, give yourself a break. You're a human being. You're catching up. It's all right. What do you think?

36:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's that was a lot. Um-

36:05 Speaker 1 I went on a tangent, sorry.

36:07 Speaker 2 No, it's fine. Just, uh, the, uh, for everything you said, the... I think the main point is that, like, I think we're f- I think we're both focusing on right now it's, it's after Gemara Talmuds. Right now we're looking back at things that the Rebbe said, and we're trying to, to see how the Rebbe said it then, and it means for now.

36:39 Speaker 1 Right.

36:40 Speaker 2 Right? I think that's, uh-

36:41 Speaker 1 Right

36:41 Speaker 2 ... I'm taking from what you said. And, and I think there's an element of it f- to that. First of all, like, going back just to, to pick on, on, on how you said it before, not pick on it to challenge it, but to, to focus on what you said before about, like, you know, before there was Yechidus, and now there's... And, and then there was only dollars. So e- even then, before Gemara Talmuds was already, like, a withdrawal. But at the same time, that opened up the opportunity for so many people to meet the Rebbe. So I think like let's say using that same thing for now that we're, we're after Gemara Talmuds and, you know, we're-- we both grew up after Gemara Talmuds. We're dealing with a whole specific reality of life-

37:18 Speaker 1 Right

37:18 Speaker 2 ... and, and of citizen of Rebbe. So when you-- w- before Gemara Talmuds, if, you know, if, if this is what was happening and this is what the Rebbe said, then this is how it, this is how it is. This is how it is. Now we're, we're getting everything like with the, with the context of reading the Sukkah, learning the Sukkah, seeing how the Rebbe said it, and then we have to like kind of like imagine ourselves there and imagine that the Rebbe is talking directly to us. And with that Emunah, w- in other words, there's no, there's no gashmius-tic of things getting in the way of a, of a certain scene and a certain context and a certain like the Rebbe was talking to him, and the Rebbe looked at him, and the Rebbe said this. W- if we have the proper Emunah in the words that the Rebbe said, right? So for example, let's say we're, we're-- we know that we, we're told that when you go to the Oyal it's your yechidus with the Rebbe. If we have that, um, Emunah, if we believe on that, on that, in that, you know, fundamental belief and, and, and we know that, uh, Yated BeChayay and the Rebbe is still with us, and when I stand by the Oyal, I'm having a yechidus just like somebody in the Chaf and, and, and, and the Yuds and the Chafs. So we have that opportunity without the limit of the, of, of, you know, wa- having

38:34 Speaker 2 an appointment six months at three AM.

38:36 Speaker 1 Right.

38:37 Speaker 2 So there is an element of, you know, if you wanna co- you know, going back to Yated BeChayay in, in a way that like we have a certain access to hiskashrus. We have a certain like, um, way of life that's available for us to live that we could tap into without needing to wait for the next Sukkah, without needing to wait for the next dollars, without needing to wait for the next opportunity to-

39:02 Speaker 1 Right

39:02 Speaker 2 ... to physically present ourselves to the Rebbe and, and, and, you know, in forms of dollars or yechidus or dok or yechidus calls, et cetera.

39:09 Speaker 1 Right.

39:09 Speaker 2 We, we have an open access, and again, spec- it, it takes, it takes a certain belief. It takes a certain belief that this is the way it is because we're told that this is the way it is, even though we can't see. And-

39:20 Speaker 1 It also take, it also takes imagination. It also takes imagination. I mean, this is re- I mean, this is coming back full circle to what we were speaking about before the podcast began about the diff- the difference between a podcast and a video.

39:31 Speaker 2 Right.

39:31 Speaker 1 Right. I had a feeling we were gonna get back to it. But like, but like I think it's a great mashal where like a video, you know, when you watch something like when you watch something with your eyes, like, like Chassidus says, "Ein dema she'me'elei re'iya." Re'iya like makes it the, the, the fact that you see it makes it like a reality right in front of you. And on one hand, that brings it very close to you, but on the other hand, it gives you no space, right? This is how it is, like you said before. This is how it is and that, that's, that's, you know, take it or leave it. And the, the downside with that is, you know, we always talk about the upside of, of something being begashmius, like being, you know, mokshusdik. That the downside with it is, is that what we see with our eyes is very limited. And I'm not saying this like on a spiritual level, you have to open up your eyes. I'm talking on like on a, on a crass physical level. It's been like our eyes see very little, and then what conveys to our brain is even less of what our eyes see, right? So I mean, there have been tests that have shown that people will literally be watching a video, and they'll be watching a ball or something bouncing on the screen, and they get so entranced by the ball that they don't notice that on the same video screen, a

40:39 Speaker 1 monkey just walked across. Like they don't notice what's literally in front of their eyes, right? And so you think about it like back in the day when, when like you said the Rebbe was saying the Sukkah begashmius, and there was a setting, there was a farbrengen and everything. Perhaps people were getting caught up with the setting, and they saw... Yeah, they saw the Rebbe, and they saw what the Rebbe was saying, but they didn't see-- They, they, they saw what they saw, right? They didn't see everything the Rebbe was saying, right? They saw what they saw and what the Rebbe was saying. And by definition, like we were saying earlier, a Rebbe by definition is talking much bigger than what people are seeing, right? So there's a limitation there, a severe limitation. Whereas today, you're, you're, you're, you're talking, you're, you're going back to those Sukkahs, and you're going back to those ideas that the Rebbe was talking about with the perspective of time, of years that have passed and, and events that have occurred, and you're also-- you're not with the limitations of it being right in front of your face. You, you have to imagine it. Like you have to figure out what this means to you. It's up to you. It's up to nobody else. It's like listening to a podcast. You don't see the person in front of you. You kind of have to imagine who that person is. You kind of have to imagine what the room looks like, like

41:49 Speaker 1 what the ambiance is like. But in some way, that pulls you in more because your active imagination brings you into it, right? You're not just a bystander. You're not just a, you're not just a, a viewer of what's going on in front of you. You've, you've, you've done something active to join in, right? Right. We're just coming from Rosh Hashanah, the whole idea of like the Shema v'Kol Shofar, right? There's, there's like this weird thing of like the act of listening. But it is an act, right? Is it l- is it l'tsary or is it l'shmaaya, right? And, and l'shmaaya is also something. So, uh, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating thing because it-- there's always, there's always such like a, um, like a negative kind of connotation of, you know, like today, you know, the Rebbe isn't here, so you're automatically missing something. And of course you're missing something, and I'm not, I'm not trying to go there and trying to paper it over, you know. But i- it's for sure some- something that used to be isn't anymore. But number one, until Moshiach comes, there's no reversing that. So what, at some point, what's the point of belaboring the issue? It is what it is. That's how I see it. But number two is there is something, and not a-- and I think we, we jump very often to like the ruchnisdik thing, you know, Yated BeChayay and like there's these ruchnisdike hasboios and amshachos, and it gets very spiritual very quickly, and

43:11 Speaker 1 people feel like you're using buzzwords. Like take- Don't go there. Before you go there, I'm not saying that's not true, but before you get there, there's a possibility as well that, that, uh, you know, that, that, that there, there are, there, there's a perspective, there's a widened perspective that people can have today because they- they've had time to think about it, and they've had time to see these things develop. And I think it's f- I, I, and I'm going a bit off, but that's because, like, my, my, my, my mind is buzzing from it because the way you're describing how chinuch has changed and how that might be connected to the time that has elapsed. You know, so often people talk about the time that has elapsed since the Rebbe passed away. Alw- it's always a negative thing. And I, and I'm, again, I'm not trying to sugarcoat it, but, like, people see time. Forget about the fact... But I'm-- I understand people are very sad the Rebbe passed away, but people see now time as a bad thing. Like, "Oh my gosh, it's another year since Gimmel Tammuz. It's another year since Gimmel Tammuz." Like, we're further and further away, right? 'Cause I wa- but my problem with that is, like, you're not going back in time, so, like, we're just gonna be more and more bitter the rest of our life? More importantly, every year after Gimmel Tammuz is an opportunity for people to become more connected and to understand the Rebbe better,

44:34 Speaker 1 right? Like ev- not every year since Gimmel Tammuz, but every year further in our life, every year since the Rebbe said something is another year of growth in that direction, possibly, if you want. Right? I mean, I don't know, maybe some people will get very upset for even suggesting that. You know, you, you, uh-

44:49 Speaker 2 For sure people will get upset.

44:50 Speaker 1 I don't-

44:50 Speaker 2 That's, that's a given.

44:51 Speaker 1 Right.

44:51 Speaker 2 That's something we could always rely on.

44:52 Speaker 1 Right. "Leolam yihiye adam." There'll always be an angry man. And then Reish Lakish comes after.

45:01 Speaker 2 So I, I would say a few things that, first of all, the idea of, you know, that we, that we, we are missing something and, and that is an element to it. I think that's an important element to it. There's the famous maamar of Hasam Aleynu, that's Gimmel Tammuz maamar, and very, very directly talks about the idea of Gimmel Tammuz, meaning in terms of what Gimmel Tammuz means for this generation. And the Rebbe talks about the

45:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, sure.

45:40 Speaker 2 Right.

45:40 Speaker 1 I, I'm not, I'm not... Okay.

45:41 Speaker 2 So I, I think that's important to emphasize, that it's not like, yeah, we're, we're after Gimmel Tammuz, and that's a fact, and stop, uh, stop complaining about it, and that's not gonna change, right? And that's, I think there is an element that we do need to complain about, and we do need to cry out Mazal, and we do... Right? Fine. That, I think that-

45:55 Speaker 1 Right

45:55 Speaker 2 ... that's said. Um, but then, like you said, it's, it's w- at the end of the day, we're, we're, we're, we're heading in that direction of more and more time since Gimmel Tammuz. And more than just like, this is what it happens to be, I would say that this is actually how it's designed to be. This is how it's meant to be. This is exactly how it's meant to be, if this is how it is. So that means that we are given a certain life and a certain shlufos and a certain-

46:16 Speaker 1 So God, Eibish, shaft developed is what you're saying.

46:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, at the end of the day. Yeah. S-

46:21 Speaker 1 Yeah.

46:21 Speaker 2 Uh, someone told me that Friedrich Rebbe told someone that the Eibish

46:29 Speaker 1 However you slice it-

46:30 Speaker 2 Exactly

46:30 Speaker 1 ... however you slice it, God's there.

46:32 Speaker 2 Right.

46:33 Speaker 1 Say it in whatever language. You could say it in Turkish or Greek, whatever works for you. But yeah, I come to the same conclusion.

46:38 Speaker 2 Exactly. So it's more than just like, okay, we're dealing with this, so how do we deal with this? It's not just we're dealing with this. We were meant to be exactly like this. So what does it mean now? And I think this is the whole idea of your podcast, the identity of Lubavitcher. The, it's not just like, okay, we are in this, like, chaotic situation, let's try to make some sort of, like, bedieved out of it. No, this is the chavrusa.

47:00 Speaker 1 Right.

47:00 Speaker 2 The Lubavitcher of 2023, and what does that mean? Right? So-

47:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, bedieved's a very, is a very sad word when it becomes the way you live your life.

47:10 Speaker 2 Yeah.

47:11 Speaker 1 Right? Bedieved is a backup plan.

47:12 Speaker 2 Exactly.

47:13 Speaker 1 It's not, it's not a, it's not a game plan. Like, if you wake up in the morning bedieved.

47:18 Speaker 2 Right.

47:19 Speaker 1 Problem.

47:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. Saying it from a bedieved machmit ken chavrusa, right?

47:22 Speaker 1 Right.

47:22 Speaker 2 You can't make a seder out of bedieved. Right. So this, so we have to take it, this is our shlufos, this is our, our, our, I guess if you wanna call it our part of Darchei, whatever. And, uh, and, and now what does it mean for us, right? And again, especially when we're dealing with a bunch of people together that were all born or raised after Gimmel Tammuz.

47:40 Speaker 1 Right.

47:40 Speaker 2 And we're n- we don't have any reference of like, oh, before it was like this, and now it's like that. We don't really know of before. More like for us, you know, uh, the men's is pretty much the same as the tzadik's, you know, with Friedrich Rebbe in terms of we weren't there by both.

47:55 Speaker 1 Right.

47:55 Speaker 2 And one of them is one generation, like, you know, kli rishon and the other one is kli sheini or whatever.

48:00 Speaker 1 Right.

48:00 Speaker 2 Kli sheini and kli shlishi.

48:01 Speaker 1 Right.

48:01 Speaker 2 But we both weren't there. We are right here. We were born in, you know, the, we were born and raised in the, in post-Gimmel Tammuz, so what does it mean to be a Lubavitcher now?

48:09 Speaker 1 Well, there's an illusion of video. That's a whole different topic. There's not... That, that, that, that has always been seen as like a fundamental distinction. Although even though I'm in the video space, I, I, I don't believe it's as big of a distinction as people make it. But-

48:21 Speaker 2 So going back to what you said about Ria. Ria is very powerful.

48:24 Speaker 1 Right.

48:24 Speaker 2 Ria is very powerful. But if anyone would try to be a Chassid just by virtue of that we have videos of the Rebbe, it obviously wouldn't be a very premistic, uh-

48:31 Speaker 1 Right

48:31 Speaker 2 ... a relationship. It wouldn't be a very, you know, if we wouldn't learn to say this ourselves, if we wouldn't do a Chitas or whatever, you know, whatever the specific things as living as a Chassid, if we would just rely on the fact that there are videos and pictures of the Rebbe, it wouldn't obviously be a very holistic, very or very real, very deep connection.

48:46 Speaker 1 Probably because of what we were discussing earlier, which is-

48:48 Speaker 2 It's somebody else, it's not you.

48:49 Speaker 1 No. Vision on one hand is very powerful, but it's also very limiting. And we always think about how powerful it is, but it's also very limiting. It, it, it, it clouds your... It clouds what you, what, what you're taking in. And so especially like with a video of like a Farbrengen, yeah, you're seeing the Rebbe talk, but are you really feeling what it's like to be at a Farbrengen? Are you picking up the atmosphere? To an, to an extent. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I wanna be clear. I'm not, I'm not saying videos are a bad thing. I do it for a living.

49:18 Speaker 2 Right.

49:19 Speaker 1 I'm not anti-video. And, and, and when it comes to that, like I think it's probably a good thing that there are videos of the Rebbe's Farbrengens, but I was just pointing out that like there is this idea where like the men's are closer to us because we have videos, and it, it's worth thinking about how much closer is it. Like, and in a way, perhaps because we have videos, it's further from us on some level because we think we have it when we don't, whereas other times we have to imagine. I know it's an interesting kind of tangent to go on, but probably not for now. I did want to, I did wanna circle back a little bit. Um, I, I know I'm a little bit responsible for the fact that we went in this direction a lot, although, you know, I personally, I, I love when I come into a conversation thinking I'm gonna talk about one thing and, and kind of like something just grabs my attention. I'm like, "I gotta talk about that." But, uh, it's not only about me. Uh, I think, I think we can connect it though here, which is, you know, you said a very interesting line earlier, which was, you know, born to be a shliach, born to be a teacher. Um, I think that's, that's worth exploring, and I think that'll also bring us back a little bit to the conversation about infertility as well. Um, not that that has to be a whole topic, but

50:26 Speaker 1 I think B'nei Geyl in Yonenu, right? Um, you know, you spoke about... You s- you said the words like this, this person was born to be a shliach, and that, and I, I don't know if you said the words, but you were kind of indicating you were born to be a teacher. You know, that's a very interesting way of, of seeing your identity, because so much of the thinking that I got accustomed to in yeshiva was like, "What do you mean you were born one way or another?" Like, it's like if, if, if everyone wants it from you, then that's what you're gonna do. Like, like, what do you mean? Screw your, your, uh... Like forget about your, your own talents and your predispositions and what you're good at and what you're bad at. Like you know? Like, you have to be good at everything. Like you, what do you mean that you're, that you're better at, you like Siddhis more than, than Nigla, right? Like you can't say you have a favorite say. And I, I know I'm coming across a little bit sarcastic and cynical, but the meaning in itself I, I respect. I mean, the way it's, the way it's sometimes thrown around lightly as if like it's a joke, I am cynical. Uh, like as if like it's a sure, like when, when would you like me to start? Like as if it's like easy, right? But, but there is this kind of lingo out there where like, what do you

51:39 Speaker 1 mean you were born to be a shliach or not born to be a shliach? Like, you know? So like how do you think that fits into, how do, like how do you square that, square that thing where like, this is who I am, the teva, and then sometimes maybe it comes up against like what I'm taught in yeshiva, like whatever wants from me. Like let's say you weren't born to be a teacher, but let's say you were born to be a businessman. Like how would you reconcile those two things?

52:08 Speaker 3 There's, um, there's this concept that comes up in Tanya, and it's a very fundamental idea about every person's particular shlichas, in particular avoda. There's, there's lingo in Tanya. is the topic that the Rebbe talks about, about like a person has this one mitzvah, or let's say this one avoda, that his, his path, and from there, everything that he does in life gets elevated to Hashem through there. And how do you know which one's yours? How do you know what your, how do you know what your shlichas is meant to be in life? How do you know? And again, using shlichas both in its literal sense, but also in its general sense about how do you know what your life is meant to be. And there's a bit, there's two, um... I, I, I actually heard this spelled out very clearly by Naftali Silberberg in his Let's Talk Tanya podcast. Um, and when I was listening to it, like it, it, it made so much sense. Like I was almost like saying it together with him. Like it, it's exactly everything that I've always understood, but he spelled it out so clearly. That on the one hand, exactly like you mentioned about , that we're told that, you know, break your teva, go against yourself, um, you know, uh, uh, going out of your teva, beyond your teva. That's on one end. On the other hand, I think specifically the Rebbe always focused on that you have to find your talents, you have to see what

53:32 Speaker 3 you're, what you're good at because, and this is very important, 'cause the Rebbe looks at everything that happens in this world. The Rebbe's perspective in the world and life is that this is Hashem. This is Hashem happening right here.

53:44 Speaker 1 Right.

53:44 Speaker 3 Nothing in the wor- the world doesn't exist outside of Hashem.

53:47 Speaker 1 You're talking essentially about Hashgaha Pratit.

53:48 Speaker 3 It's Hashgaha Pratit, but on a, on a super hyper level.

53:52 Speaker 1 Right.

53:52 Speaker 3 That it's not just like everything happens for a reason. It's also that when it's happening, what happens is exactly what Hashem put into place. In other words, it's not only-

54:01 Speaker 1 There's a about that. Is that what you're referring to or?

54:03 Speaker 3 Well-

54:04 Speaker 1 Okay, just go on.

54:05 Speaker 3 So the... No, it's not Hashgaha Pratit, it's like the way people sometimes use it like it's for a reason. It's not just that it's for a reason. If it's happening, that means that's, that this is what's happening. And that's why the Rebbe's perspective, let's say on a, on a side note, just to bring up this point, that like someone's sick and from the world, right?

54:21 Speaker 1 Right.

54:21 Speaker 3 The answer is because your physical life is a mirror of your spiritual life. So if there's something wrong in your physical life, means something wrong in your spiritual life. Fix the spiritual, it will fix the phy- physical. Our physical world is running on the same track as the spiritual world that we don't see, but it's equally as real.

54:34 Speaker 1 Right.

54:34 Speaker 3 So, so going back, so, so therefore, so the, I think the Rebbe looks at the fact that you were born with a certain talent and says, "If you were born with a certain talent, that means that this talent is, is godly."

54:44 Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

54:44 Speaker 3 That means that this is exactly what you're meant to be, and therefore what you're meant to do with it. So the two ideas of how to know what your shlichas are, are, are number one, and again, Rabbi Silberberg spelled it, Naftali Silberberg spelled it out like this, but it's so shmok when you say it like this, that number one, what you're good at, what you're naturally good at. Number two, what's hard for you to do. And if those are not, sometimes those things are, are not the same, and sometimes they're specifically the same. Sometimes specifically what we're talented with is exactly what we find ourselves struggling to accomplish.

55:14 Speaker 1 And that's when, that's the sweet spot. That's the sweet spot.

55:17 Speaker 3 Exactly. And that's exactly what you're meant to focus on. So that, that's, again, that's, that's one element of it. Which means that, so if I was born, meaning if my nature is to be able to explain something and I have a shmok in that, and I have a, and I have a passion in that, so-

55:33 Speaker 1 And you have patience

55:34 Speaker 3 ... and I have patience and whatever, right?

55:36 Speaker 1 Important part.

55:37 Speaker 3 Yeah. So, so then I have a shlichas, I need to use that out.

55:42 Speaker 1 Right.

55:42 Speaker 3 I can't let that go to waste, in the Rebbe's words, all the time.

55:46 Speaker 1 Right.

55:46 Speaker 3 At the same time, if I know that I don't wanna go in right? Let's say I don't like going on I just don't like, you know, going out and asking people for Jewish and, and having to explain to someone, you know, that this is-

55:58 Speaker 1 Right

56:01 Speaker 3 I, I have to know that that's also a very big part that's demanded for me. And, and specifically because I have a, a challenge in that area, I know that it's important because the yedei Tahara is, is, is investing all this koach and, and bo- and stopping me from doing that. Again, so sometimes those two things will be different things. Like, I have a passion in teaching, and I have a challenge in going mafsoyim. So I have to know that going mafsoyim is very important for me. It does not mean that I should go mafsoyim my, the whole day, and that should become my-

56:27 Speaker 1 I see what, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

56:29 Speaker 3 Now, another thing is that, again, sometimes those things actually work in tandem, which means that I have a passion in teaching, and also I'm ha- I'm, I'm feeling a very strong challenge. Maybe now I'm becoming a teacher. Like, yeah, I became a teacher in Sefer. But then, like, maybe I'm gonna have a strong challenge. I'm gonna witne- I'm gonna experience a very strong, uh, roadblock in my teaching, and I have to know that that is because that is my shlichus. And the fact that it's my challenge, and the fact that this is my talent will also lend itself to it being a challenge for me. So-

56:58 Speaker 1 I love it. I love it. I love it.

56:59 Speaker 3 That, that's, that's one element of it. There's another, uh... That, that's one element of it, which is that, like, how do you know what your shlichus is meant to be? It's like, find what you're good at, and also find what, where you're, where you're seeing a challenge in. And-

57:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I, I wanna, I wanna tie it back, though. I wanna tie it... Uh, we'll get back to your second point. I wanna tie it back, though, because it's not just about, like, how do you know? This is very important. It, it's a good m- it's a good rubric to f- or what would be the word? It's a good, it's a good heuristic to f- like a rule of thumb to figure out, you know, like, what should you be doing if you're tho- thinking in terms of, like, what does God want from me, not just what do I wanna do. But I think what you said right before that, and that, and that's why I wanna make sure that we emphasize it before we forget about it, 'cause the question was: how do you reconcile, like, this idea that, you know, if the Rebbe, like, the Rebbe's demanding shlichus, but I want-- I'm born to be a teacher. And what you're saying is, is no, no, those things are not in contradiction. The Rebbe demanded shlichus. The Rebbe also demanded people to use their talents. And, like, there are many stories, for example, where the Rebbe would tell someone who wanted to go on shlichus, "No, you stay." You know, so Baaltshuva, let's say, who was gonna be a professor. "No, your shlichus is to be a professor. Your shlichus is to be here." Right? That, that's your mission. Now, none of us are gonna get that kind of direct, you know, personal directive

58:13 Speaker 1 like those people got, right? Okay, depending on your belief system, maybe you can. But, like, not in the same way that those people got it, right? The Rebbe's not gonna tell you in your chidduš that this is your thing. That's not gonna happen.

58:25 Speaker 3 Right.

58:25 Speaker 1 Whoever, whoever has that happening to them should get their mezuzahs checked. But you know what I mean? Like, in that sense, in that sense, it's changed. But what you're saying is fundamentally, the Rebbe's philosophy was not like there's one-- my way or the... Like, I'm not saying it's my way or the highway, but that there's only one way. You know, derech echad laKol HaIsh Baruch Hu. There's hardly derech echad mamash, right? And even if the Rebbe was emphasizing shlichus as something that the derech should be doing, the generation should be doing, that even people that aren't full-time on shlichus should, should, should see their life as a shlichus of the Aibishter, right? But so what-- It goes back to what we were saying before. When you, when you're limited, and you can only ex- you can only hear, like, one message at a time, the message that's resounding in everybody's ears at the time is shlichus, shlichus, shlichus, shlichus. But if you take a step back, and you have the time and the, and the distance of time to see, take a step back, and you see the Rebbe was saying shlichus. He was also saying that people should use their talents. He was saying both, right? And so what you're saying is, is that today, when you perhaps don't have the ring of shlichus in your ear, like kind of overwhelming you and forcing you into it, you're like, "Wait a second. The Rebbe told me-- The, the Rebbe didn't tell me, but the

59:36 Speaker 1 Rebbe..." If, if even if all I wanna do is follow the Rebbe's directives, and that's my entire decision-making process, it's clear to me that the Rebbe didn't want me to waste my talents, right? That was, that was the number one rule by the Rebbe. Don't waste your talents. Like, people, don't waste talents. Like, you, you, you, you, you maximize your potential. And so what you're saying is a very interesting point, that, that shlichus maybe was the message of the day, but, but the Rebbe was also saying not to waste your potential, not to waste your talent. And so in your case, that meant you had to be a teacher, correct?

1:00:11 Speaker 3 Right. And, um, the Rabbi Katzin, um, he put out-- They, they had a interview from Jem, Here's My Story. And he said that when he, after he got married or whatever his specifics were, he wanted to know what he should do, and the Rebbe told him take a personality test.

1:00:28 Speaker 1 Really?

1:00:28 Speaker 3 Yes. And, and he's recorded saying the story. And then it came-- And based on the results, the Rebbe said, "You should become a teacher." Based on-- In other words, not the Rebbe's, like, ruchniusdik thing, but based on the results of his, of Rabbi Katzin's, uh, what's called aptitude test. So based on these results, it means you should become a teacher. And he didn't wanna be a teacher. I think he want-- Uh, I don't-- He didn't wanna go on shlichus. I don't think that's what, that was the story. I think is he wanted to open up a, a certain profession. But the Rebbe said, "You should become a teacher." So there absolutely-- And this is back in '60s probably or whatever it was. You know, this is not, uh, touch on ions. So, so there absolutely always was this idea that the Rebbe focused on, on, on talents. Now, the flip side is what usually we're used to hearing from those from that time is, and this is the second point, that it, you know, we n- in-- when there's, when there's, uh, you know, if there's, if there's a business, and, um, one day there's a fire, chas v'Shalom, whatever, and the CEO is gonna be there, um, doing the same thing that the janitor's doing, and the-- and what happened? The, and the janitor will have to make some sort of executive decision just like the CEO, right?

1:01:41 Speaker 1 All hands on deck.

1:01:42 Speaker 3 All hands on deck. So that was the-- that was what was going on then.

1:01:46 Speaker 1 Right.

1:01:46 Speaker 3 It was all hands on deck. There was less people. There was less, uh, there was, there was less resources. And if, if you had, uh, uh... And, you know, you could look at the senior shluchim of today, and, and you're like, "What? He's a shliach in some Yechupitz. He should've been a, a, you know..." Forget the, the other, uh, you know, forget the Yiddish terminology. He should've been a gadol. He should've been a Rosh Yeshiva.

1:02:08 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:08 Speaker 3 The Kirinites. He should've been this Rosh Yeshiva in 770. Instead, he's in Yechupitz convincing some co- college kid to put on tefillin.

1:02:14 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:14 Speaker 3 Right? But that's what was going on. That's what was needed then.

1:02:17 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:17 Speaker 3 So it was all hands on deck. Nowadays, that's not the situation at all.

1:02:21 Speaker 1 Right.

1:02:21 Speaker 3 We have enough shluchim taking care of, of what they need to do, and we have enough teachers taking care of what they need to do. In other words, there's a position open that if you have a certain talent, if you have a certain aptitude, then you ha- you will probably have the ability to fill that position with, with, in a, in a, in a shlichus mindset way.

1:02:40 Speaker 1 Mm.

1:02:40 Speaker 3 And, and again, we could extend that conversation to businessmen, the same thing. I, I, I can't-- I, I'm not going to because I'm not a businessman and I don't know what a life of a, a, a Lubavitcher yungerman, you know, in, in today's day and age who wakes up and realizes he's not going on shlichus and he's ending up, you know, becoming a, you know, a real estate agent or Amazon guy or whatever, and now what do I do to be a chassid? What do I do? I'm not gonna go there 'cause that's not my life, so I'm not gonna speak for anyone else.

1:03:07 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:07 Speaker 3 But definitely within, you know, the contrast of teaching and traditional shlichus, um, Chabad House today is not the chass. Today, we don't need someone to go put-

1:03:18 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:18 Speaker 3 When the Rebbe... This is printed in the sifrei. So the Rebbe's talking about that it's a time of a fire, so we need everyone to go put out the fire, and that's why, um, your, your spiritual growth, staying in Crown Heights and continuing to learn in kollel or whatever cannot come at the cost of a yid putting on tefillin somewhere else in America. So that's why you have to go out to, to go put on tefillin. That's what was going on then. So literally it was going on, and that's what we see. We see, we look at the people that are the shluchim in these places and we're like, "What? That doesn't make sense. That's not their character."

1:03:45 Speaker 1 Right.

1:03:46 Speaker 3 They, they should've been, saying just spir- physically speaking from their character, they should've been in a Roshev Shiva in 770, whatever. Now, yeah, so that's, that's, that's another element of judging the, the balance between going with your talents and going against your talents, which the question is also what, what's needed? What's needed in the grander scheme?

1:04:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I love the, I love that you brought up the metaphor of the fire 'cause you think of it like, you know, when there's a fire, the firefighters go to the fire. But then at some point, the fire either gets put out or it gets under control, and then there's a fire somewhere else. And if the firemen say, "No, no, no, we were sent out to only this fire, and this is where we're staying forever," you know, it's gonna be destruction somewhere else. And, and in some regard, that is what happened with Chinuch, right?

1:04:27 Speaker 3 Triage.

1:04:28 Speaker 1 No, no, but, but Chinuch for a while, like people were like, "Yeah, we understand that Chinuch, there's a fire in our own home, like Chinuch is burning, but, but the Rebbe told us to focus on this fire, so we're gonna let that fire burn and we're just gonna focus on the fire over there outside of Crown Heights or outside of our community, and that's where our focus is going to be." And I think what you're saying now is people are realizing, no, no, the Rebbe told us to be firemen. Put on fires , okay? In other words, put-- the fire comes before your life, meaning the fire comes before your comforts. When there's a fire, you don't say, "No, no, well, there's no fire right here, so I'm just gonna go put my feet up on the couch." I'm gonna go put out the fire, and I feel like I have a responsibility to somebody else to put out the fire, which is what a fireman does, right? And so for a while, the fire and the obvious fire was not so much, was not in Crown Heights, it was outside Crown Heights. It was in these foreign university campuses that were so foreign to-

1:05:19 Speaker 3 Mm

1:05:20 Speaker 1 ... you know, Lubavitchers growing up in Crown Heights, but that's where the fire was, so they went there. But then a fire came to Crown Heights. Everybody knows there was a fire, like there was a problem, a crisis in Crown Heights and in our own community 'cause that's, that's what happens. The fire never goes away forever. Just you put it out, it goes somewhere else, and then it comes back, right? Fire-- the fire's always there. It's just a matter of patrolling it, right? There's always potential for, for fire.

1:05:47 Speaker 3 Right.

1:05:47 Speaker 1 And, and what you're saying, which I love the analogy of the fireman. I know the Rebbe spoke about it that way, but, like, you know, the-- in a way, what you're saying is that the firemen are realizing that, that their job is to be firemen for other fires. There, there are other fires that are important, and I think it's important. I mean, I, I know you don't wanna talk about businessmen, but I mean, I'm not a teacher, so I can speak a little bit more to that, although maybe I'm not a full-on businessman. But yeah, I mean, I think your logic-- I'm not saying that, that you're-- that I, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I think your logic would extend to, to businessmen as well, right?

1:06:25 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. I think they do, yeah.

1:06:25 Speaker 1 Right. If, if you're born with a, with a certain, uh, predisposition to run a business and that's where you get your fire from, like that's where you feel right, and that's where, that's where you're going to-- that that's where you kind of you feel led to by just by who you are, there's a place for you, too. I'm not saying it's equal to shlichus. I-- frankly, I don't care.

1:06:47 Speaker 3 Exactly.

1:06:47 Speaker 1 It's not, it's not the legal I talk. I, I don't care. I mean, like whatever. It's just not a, it's not a scoring contest.

1:06:52 Speaker 3 Exactly.

1:06:52 Speaker 1 But the, the valuable point is that there's, there's space for you, too. There's space for you too as a businessman in the Rebbe's kind of view of reality and, and his constant reality. Even if, let's say in the mem or other years, there was such a concentration on one thing the Rebbe was saying. When you zoom out, over time, we've come to realize collectively each, each per- but also each person in their own way that I can be a businessman, I can be a teacher, I can be something else, and the Rebbe was talking for me, too. I just had this conversation with a, with a businessman. He was telling me, like when he was growing up, and he's on the podcast. I don't know if it's gonna come out first, but, you know, he was saying that, you know, when I was a bu- when, when, when I was younger, I felt that being a businessman was in opposition to what the Rebbe was saying. But as I've gotten older, I've realized no, I can be a businessman and be a chassid. I can still follow the Rebbe's teachings and let the Rebbe inspire me. And he was telling me beautiful stories of how he put on tefillin with people at work. And, and, you know, it, it was, it was as moving a story of putting on tefillin as any, as, as a Besht shliach story I've ever heard. And, and it was beautiful 'cause it was like, it, it, it was like

1:08:02 Speaker 1 something has developed here. And, and it, and it's nice to know that, that there is, there is... It's nice to know that over time-- It's nice to have something positive- Or a positive way of looking at the time that has elapsed. You know, I was telling someone, I think, I don't think it was on my podcast, but I was telling someone that, you know, one of the saddest emails I ever got was I had written by mistake 5770 instead of 5780. It was like, 'cause I was marketing something, and I was like, it... You know, something available for the year 5770 when really it was a 5780. And someone wrote back to me, "If only it was 5770." Like, we'd be 10 years closer to before Gematamos. And it was so sad for me to hear because, like, you know, how can anybody possibly live in a situation happily where every day is sadder than the day before? You, you, you can't, you can't live that way. I'm sorry. There's no, there's no way to live that way, and it's nice to be able to hear from someone else, 'cause this isn't just in my head or in your head. You're talking about a, a, a culture in teaching and, and like an envi- a actual reality in teaching where there's an upward trend and, and people are... A- and that upward trend is not in opposition to the time elapsing since Gematamos, but it's, it's people that are finding their, their place in the

1:09:32 Speaker 1 Rebbe's world, in the Rebbe's, in the Rebbe's mission. With time, more and more are finding-- more and more people are finding their place in a more real way. I'm not trying to downplay anything. I'm not... It's not my goal here. But it's nice to have at least a positive, a positive view of it on some level. Something, something, a positive way of looking at the future, let's say. Like, there's something to look forward to. We... People can become even more connected. People can find even more place in the Rebbe's world. What do you think?

1:10:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. I, I would switch it not to the future, but the present. It's always about, in, in my perspective, it's always about the present. If this is what's happening right now, then this is what we need to be dealing with right now. This is not B'diEvet, like we said before. So same thing, but I'm not focusing on the past. You're, you're, I guess, maybe a little more, um, idealistic, dreamy, like, towards the future, and, and I'm coming from a place of like, in the present, this is what is happening right now. That means that this is what Hashem wants to happen right now, and this is what we are gonna deal with right now. This is our, our shlichus right now. So... But it's, yeah, exactly. It's the same point that there's, you know, you're talking about the, the, the businessman having his place and, and, you know, maybe, maybe in the past it wasn't marketed that way, and it was, uh, it was second class. It was, it was not, it was not the, the ideal. And the lingo definitely has changed, for sure. That, uh, there's so much opportunity, you know. And it is important. It is important that everybody understands that wherever they are in life, this is the same, um, Hashem's world, and this is the same Rebbe's world, and this is the same, uh, you know, uh, getting towards Mashiach with every added mitzvah. So whether your mitzvah is gonna be as a shliach or as a teacher or as

1:11:21 Speaker 3 a businessman, this is all gon- it's all going to the same place. It's all going to the same, uh, it's all adding up to the same point.

1:11:27 Speaker 1 Right. Ein Ein Movadi. At the end of the day, that's what we learn from Chassidus, that, that, that there's, there's a God in this world, and God permeates every aspect of the world. And from God's standpoint, everything is equal. Everything is permeated equally, right?

1:11:43 Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

1:11:43 Speaker 1 And equally. Everything is permeated equally. And, you know, it seems like in some level there, there's a similarity here with Lubavitch identity, with what the Rebbe wanted from, from Lubavitchers and the space th- and the place that there is for Lubavitchers that, you know, with time, the identity doesn't shrink. Which is in many ways... I mean, there is a tendency for the identity to shrink. The, there, there-- I have seen, and something that has frustrated me, I'm gonna be honest, is that it has felt to me that with time, the identity has become more absolutist and more fundamentalist, like you're either in or out. There's a kind of like a defensive kind of tendency where like, like we have to kind of hunker down and like, you know, it's past Gematamos. We're not gonna let any, any friction. Like it's this way or, or, or nothing, right? It's, it's this or bust. There has been that tendency, but what you're talking about and what we're talking about here is the opposite, the opposite tendency, where with time, there's room for more people. And not because the Rebbe has become relaxed and we're talk- and we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're relaxing the standards, but because we're-- people in their own ways are beginning to pick up on things that the Rebbe said that weren't picked up on before, right? I was like, you know... Yeah, I, I, I feel like I'm going on too much, but I, I, I don't usually talk so much on

1:13:06 Speaker 1 the podcast, but you really, you really tickled my brain tonight. I mean, it really gave me something to, to think about, like a framework to think about it possibly. But I, I, I, I think, I think I've spoken enough. I, I do want to, I, I know time is running out, but I, I do want to... I don't wanna make your story of infertility like a, a, a side point, but I know that it's something that it deserves its own conversation. Um, and maybe we'll have that conversation separately one day. But I, I do think in as much as it's relevant to this conversation, I think that's worth bringing up, especially that people have know that you're c- connected to it and people understand that people know you in relation to that. Many people know you in relation to that. You know, tell me a little bit, tell me a little bit about how the, your, your, your journey through infertility affected your Lubavitch identity in the sense that how you saw yourself. The-- I think that's enough of a question. I think you know what, what, what to do with that.

1:14:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. Um, so I just wanna before, before I go into that, I just wanna end the previous, uh, idea with one, I think, very important thing, which also ties into the whole concept, which is that obviously everything is, um, with Mashpia. You know, it's about deciding what your life's mission is and based on your ten- your na- your talents, but also at the same time your challenges. Everything is with Mashpia. And it's not just because, like, it's a Chassidishe thing to do and the Rebbe told us to do it. I mean, yes but because it's so obvious that you can't decide these things by yourself. The reasons why the Rebbe told us about why it's so important to have Mashpia are so, are so obvious that you can't... You're blinded by your own bias, your own self-bias, and only somebody else who obviously is close to you and obvious- obviously is a role model to you, that's who you're choosing as a Mashpia, will be able to see past that bias and for your concern. He's concerned for you, so he'll be able to guide you and, and, and show you, you know, through. So, uh, it, it's kind of obvious, kind of cliché, but I think it's super important to bring into that conversation. And not just because, like, it has to be said because, like, you know, I could get fired, so to speak, if I don't say that, but also because I think that's also part of the same conversation, which is

1:15:24 Speaker 3 that the Rebbe gave us these guidance. The, the Rebbe gave us these guidelines. That's actually gonna tie directly into what I'm gonna answer. But the Rebbe gave us these, these life, um, you know, uh, fundamental principles by which to operate in any situation that we are in.

1:15:40 Speaker 4 Right.

1:15:41 Speaker 3 So that kind of ties in. I mean, the, the-- My, my journey through infertility was, um, obviously like, and like, I mean, everyone's journey is different, but they all share the same theme that it's very, very difficult on a physical level, on a psychological level, on an emotional level. Um, obviously, it could get into a spiritual level as well because you start having sfekas, and you start having, you know, complaints to Hashem, so it also affects your spirituality, of course.

1:16:06 Speaker 4 How many years did you and your wife, from after you got married, wait till you have a child?

1:16:11 Speaker 3 Five, five and a half.

1:16:11 Speaker 4 Five and a half years.

1:16:12 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:12 Speaker 4 And, and you, you found out that you had a challenge how long? One, like a year after?

1:16:17 Speaker 3 Even less, yeah.

1:16:17 Speaker 4 So you-- It was four and a half years, essentially, that you knew that there was a problem.

1:16:21 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:21 Speaker 4 So that's a very, very long time.

1:16:23 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:23 Speaker 4 Right?

1:16:24 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:16:24 Speaker 4 None of us who haven't gone through it can conceive how long four and a half years feels when you're waiting and just-

1:16:29 Speaker 3 Right

1:16:30 Speaker 4 ... the ups and downs.

1:16:31 Speaker 3 Right. I mean, and obviously to some, you know, people that I know still are waiting-

1:16:36 Speaker 4 Sure

1:16:36 Speaker 3 ... and longer, but yeah.

1:16:37 Speaker 4 Sure.

1:16:37 Speaker 3 Yeah, sure. E-again, everyone's jour- everyone's journey is hard, everyone's journey is long, and, and this is not just about infertility. Any challenge that any person faces is the hardest versus everyone else's.

1:16:45 Speaker 4 Right, but I, I was saying that four and a half years is a very real amount of time.

1:16:49 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:16:49 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:16:49 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:16:49 Speaker 4 So I just wanted to... Okay. So, so you're, so you were saying?

1:16:53 Speaker 3 So again, so those are the common things that any person's journey will have, um, the difficulties of it, and again, any form of difficulty. But what, what, what I had specifically was actually pretty, um, calm in the sense that I, I always felt-- I never, I never despaired. I never freaked out. I never like, um, you know, like felt that my life was, was not being able to be lived because of that, of that, of, because of infertility. So it's in two things. It's in one way, which is that, like, I always managed to find value in my life. I always managed to find value in what I had, um, and kind of exactly what we were talking about before, about like, this is what Hashem is giving me right now. And I actually developed this line. Actually, this, the way I'm saying it now, I only came up with after, in the past year since I had a baby, but it kinda shows what I was always thinking. I don't-- It's not that Hashem gave me infertility. I'm sorry. It's not that Hashem didn't give me a child. It's that Hashem gave me infertility. It's not that... Or, you know, you could take that to any challenge. It's not that Hashem didn't give me money. Hashem gave me poverty. This is what Hashem is giving me right now. This is with a purpose. This is with a kavanah. It's painful, and we don't know why, and it's a tragedy. And again, you, you could

1:18:08 Speaker 3 extend this to any topic. It's... And, and we-

1:18:11 Speaker 4 But you're talking from personal experience, so yeah.

1:18:13 Speaker 3 Of course.

1:18:13 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:18:14 Speaker 3 Yeah, sure.

1:18:14 Speaker 4 You're saying, like you're talking not-

1:18:15 Speaker 3 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, uh, preaching. Exactly. I'm, I'm giving over my feelings and how I got and how I used to think to myself and the thoughts I used to forbear with myself, that this is what Hashem has in mind for me. So I'm gonna fundamentally believe, I'm gonna choose to believe that this is good for me. And I'm not saying this was my day in, day out for, for four and a half, whatever, for years straight. No, of course, there's ups and downs, and of course, sometimes I just, you know, don't believe anything, and I don't wanna believe anything, and I just want, you know, nothing. And, um, and, you know, that's, that's a down. But part of it also was being self-aware that this is a down. This is not really what I believe. I really fundamentally believe, and I'll get back to it tomorrow or in a week or in a month, that everything is for a purpose. So I'm not saying that I, I'm, I'm the strongest person in terms of emunah and like, yeah, I never had a down, and this is a... No, but this is my core belief. So the days that I felt it, the days that I didn't feel it, my core belief is that this is what Hashem gives me. Everything from Hashem is good. And, and again, even to think about the challenge in that way, you know, philosophically, that even the challenge is what's being given to me, not that the

1:19:26 Speaker 3 challenge is standing in the way of something else that I'm supposed to be having that I'm not getting. Um, and so, a-and, and, and re- and the reason why I had that, um, personally, because I had gone through challenges as a bachur. Um, I had gone through, you know, uh, just things in, in my family, in my extended family, um, where also there was challenges to my emunah as a bachur. And as a bachur, I had very, very downs. I, I went through months and maybe you could say even a year and years of, of, of, of challenging Hashem and challenging life. And Baruch Hashem, I was always in yeshiva, and I was always frum, you know, so to speak. Like, I, I never, uh, you know, dropped out of yeshiva, and I never went through. But, uh, but internally, internally in terms of beliefs and in terms of, uh, of, of, of manning up to do the right thing, no, no. There was times where I absolutely rejected everything and, you know, internally and, and, and did not, uh, and, and, and challenged Hashem, really challenged Hashem. Now, of course, you know, looking back and obviously looking at it in a deeper level, that itself shows that I had a very deep relationship with Hashem the whole time 'cause I knew that it was about challenging Hashem. Fine. That's, that's, that's a, that's a, you know, a, a axiom. But, uh, but, but really, like, and, and, and I-- and Baruch Hashem, I had

1:20:42 Speaker 3 a great support system, both from my family and also mashpia, that I, I used to speak hours with my mashpia of, of, uh, and it was a mashpia in yeshiva, like it was on site. You know, I would go to his house at night and just for-- we would talk about emunah, just simple emunah. Like-

1:20:58 Speaker 4 Wow.

1:20:58 Speaker 3 And, and I th- I really, really think, and again, this is also self-referential, that everything is from Hashem. It really gave me the, the, you know, this is in my, in my, uh, developmental years as a bachur, that now when I was in real life and was married and I had to also take care of my wife and also have to deal with, you know, have-- going into classroom at the same time and dealing with whatever other things are part of life. I had a certain core that was not gonna essentially budge, which means, again, of course, there's downs.

1:21:26 Speaker 4 Right.

1:21:26 Speaker 3 And the downs were very, very dark downs. But it, it-- I, e- even the downs, I was able to recognize that there were downs. I never had to go through that, that real self-identity of who am I and what's the world about and all that.

1:21:38 Speaker 4 I mean, there's so many things you just said. I mean, first of all, uh, I think the fact that you mentioned how, like, because you struggled with Emunah in yeshiva, within the framework of yeshiva with a mashgiach who you don't need to say who it is, but with a mashgiach that, A, you felt secure enough to confide, like, that kind of doubt. You're talking about doubting in God and doubting in God's ways.

1:22:01 Speaker 3 Yeah.

1:22:01 Speaker 4 You're talking about real crisis of faith, and you're, you, uh, you're able to comfortable to, to open up to mashgiach about that. He's also comfortable enough to, to go there, you know, and to talk about things that, you know, like, you know, like, we're not talking about, like, high levels of, of, like, chiddushim. We're talking about basics of Judaism, and he's comfortable to talk to you about that. And, and f- you know, it could, it could get to thorny places very quickly, and he's helpful. And, and the fact that you had that in yeshiva prepared you for life. It, it, it's, you know, in a way, it's like almost, you know, God forbid that we should wish on bochurim to go through tragedies when they're young. But in some way, how do we find a way for the yeshivas to spend time to talk to bochurim about yesodous of Emunah when they're in yeshiva? Like, how many bochurim come out of yeshiva and they, you know, if, if you're lucky, they know how to learn a mir well and a daf yomi well. But when you challenge them on basic questions of faith, like, how many people have come to me? They've gone through the full system, and they come to me with, like, this novel insight. You know, how is it possible that, that, that good people suffer? Like, as if that's, like, something that Yiddishkeit has never thought about before. You know, and, and I'm not saying that these people are, are stupid.

1:23:15 Speaker 4 To the contrary, very often very smart people, and they come to you with, like, basic philosophical questions that are very difficult questions to tackle. And it's not like I have answers to them. The whole point is that there are no answers. But the, the, the, the-- what's striking is how, like, they're like, "Wow," they're like, "There's this question." And it's like, this question has been asked by It's been asked by everybody. The everybody spoke about this, but it was never talked about in yeshiva. Like, like, because it was taken for granted, right? It's taken for granted. And, and it's, and it's not something you take for granted. So I think that's, number one, a very interesting thing. But-

1:23:44 Speaker 3 It's going back to the chinuch conversation from the beginning.

1:23:46 Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you have-- when you're too busy with the fire over there, you forget about the fire over here. Sometimes you don't even realize that there's a fire, right? Like, the fireman going to put out a fire in someone else's home, and then his fire- home catches fire. It's hard. It's hard to be in both places at once. Um, but I, I think, I think, you know, what's, what's also really interesting in what you said is that, is that... You just-- I just got caught away with that, with that first point. But you, you were also say- you were saying that when you were w- when, when you were in yeshiva dealing with this, with this crisis of faith, it, it prepared you to deal with, with-- You were talking about how you were having taanos to the Aibishter and a real crisis of faith. And I don't think it's important now to go into the exact nitty-gritty of that. Everybody understands more or less what that is. I don't know if you wanna go into it, but let's just take at face value, a crisis of faith. What was your feeling? Was there a feeling towards the Rebbe at the time? Was there a feeling towards your Lubavitch identity at the time? The reason I'm asking that is not just because this is a podcast about Lubavitch identity, but because very often I've found that, like, for whatever reason, uh, Lubavitchers will be more comfortable questioning the Aibishter, but then the

1:25:06 Speaker 4 Rebbe is, like, off limits.

1:25:08 Speaker 3 Yes. Um, the-- what, what I remember, like, trying to re- put myself back in those, in those, you know, places, like, you know, m- literally sitting in my mashgiach's house and having this conversation. W- the way I remember that the Rebbe would be part of that conversation would be because of an, uh, almost philosophical or theological level. We know what the Rebbe tells us to think. We know how the Rebbe, uh, allows us to think, so to speak, allows us to challenge, and at the same time has the Emunah Peshatah in the Aibishter. Like, we all know, we've watched the videos of the sichos, famous sicha Vayishlach, I think whatever it is. You know, a few sichos like this where the Rebbe, like, literally breaks down crying and, and at the Moshiach. And, and actually, I was just talking about this recently in my classroom. I teach eighth grade. Um, that no-- like, the Re- galus bother-bothered the Rebbe more than it bothered anyone else. Like, you can never, um, appreciate the negativity of galus more than the Rebbe. So, so the Rebbe goes from crying bitter tears and choking up and not being able to continue a sentence about the galus, and then literally... And there's actually a pattern of this, that in those very sichos, Rebbe will switch after a few minutes to simcha and, and, uh, and add another mitzvah, you know, whatever specific wording. So that, that, uh, paradox that the Rebbe presented to us and became part of our, our

1:26:40 Speaker 3 viewpoint of life growing up with these sichos, growing up with this, with, with these messages, that became-- that was like s- almost like food for the, for the idea of challenging Hashem. For example, I remember one-

1:26:53 Speaker 4 But you never, you never, you never felt outs- that you were outside of that envelope too. But I understand what you're saying.

1:26:58 Speaker 3 Right.

1:26:58 Speaker 4 The Rebbe kind of set a parameter within which you could challenge your Emunah. But did you ever feel outside of that? Did you ever feel like, like that even that's not enough for me? Like I-- that doesn't talk to me.

1:27:12 Speaker 3 So it-- not that it doesn't talk to me, no. Um, I felt very empowered by, like, these messages that we're learning about the depths of our connection to Hashem, but at the same time- What's going on? But so, so not that it didn't speak to me, but it confused. It confused me. That was part of my confusion. For example, I remember very clearly like this one way of-- that I had the question was after Mumbai. And Mumbai for me was, was, was, was a disaster. That was literally at the same time as everything else going-

1:27:41 Speaker 4 It was rough.

1:27:41 Speaker 3 What?

1:27:41 Speaker 4 It was rough.

1:27:42 Speaker 3 Was, was rough because I was-- it was Yeah.

1:27:53 Speaker 4 Just ideas, like-

1:28:51 Speaker 3 These are both ideas that exist in the Rebbe Sefas.

1:28:53 Speaker 4 Right.

1:28:53 Speaker 3 These are both v-valid ideas in, in how to, uh, in how a Yid operates. And that was basically my que- what, what, are we allowed to ask? Are we allowed to challenge? Are we not allowed to challenge what's going on? So it all existed within the framework of the Rebbe's g- the Rebbe's viewpoint to us. That was my identity. Like that was-- my identity was that I'm growing up with what the Rebbe's telling me. I'm, I'm, I'm actually viewing life very much aligned. I'm not questioning the Rebbe. I'm not, uh... And, and l- it's interesting the way you said it, like we have a easier time questioning Hashem than questioning the Rebbe. And yeah, in a way, that's part of the whole point of the Rebbe, right? The Rebbe's a baser of Adam that we're able to relate to.

1:29:32 Speaker 4 Yeah.

1:29:32 Speaker 3 And I think that's why we challenge the Rebbe less, not because we're more afraid of the Rebbe, but because we're more comfortable with the Rebbe. We're more like, "I, I get the Rebbe," so to speak. I understand what the Rebbe's saying. Hashem, I don't get. I totally don't get. It's ridiculous. It's, it's, it's r- it's, it's, it's, uh, I'm, I'm not gonna accept it.

1:29:47 Speaker 4 Right.

1:29:47 Speaker 3 Because I have no basis to accept it.

1:29:48 Speaker 4 Right.

1:29:49 Speaker 3 By default.

1:29:50 Speaker 4 Right.

1:29:50 Speaker 3 'Cause I don't see Hashem, I don't feel Hashem, I don't hear Hashem, et cetera.

1:29:53 Speaker 4 Yeah. I, I think, I think, I think, um, you know, I, I, I was, I was, I was worried to bring up the, the infertility discussion given how long our conversation about the Chinuch, uh, went on. I didn't wanna make it a side thing. But I think in the end, it tied in very nicely, and it, it really brought home your original and main, the main point of this conversation, which is, you know, the, the story of how your crisis of Emunah as a young bachur or t- you know, young bachur, how that helped you through your crisis through, through infertility, um, just illustrated what you had been speaking about all this time before, which is, A, how important Chinuch is, and how being a teacher and being there now for the next generation of boys and giving them the tools when they need it will empower them later on in life in ways that you cannot foretell and scenarios that you cannot foresee. And, and that's such a beautiful thing to think about. Um, and it, it, it also, it also, it also illustrates, it also illustrates how... It, it, it illustrates to me a-again, uh, yet again, this, this message that has come out of this conversation, which is that with time, we pick up on new messages. With time, we pick up on, on, on, on different spaces where we can, where we can, where we can fit in. And, you know, li-like you said, this is not to diminish, uh, perhaps

1:31:30 Speaker 4 the tragic nature of being a post-Gemara Thomas Hasid. I, no, I am not trying to suggest that this is a better situation, and I don't think anybody is. But, you know, we are human beings. We are living in this time. We were born into this time. Like you said, Hashem put us here. Nobody else did, right? And when you are, when you go through infertility, you learn that very, very specifically and very acutely, which is that Hashem gives you the child, right? Hashem puts this child into this world. It's only up to Him to put this child in this world, and therefore, He put us into this world too, and He put us into this world at this time, and we have to live life with some kind of looking f- looking forward to the future. I'm not talking about in the future 10 years down the line. I'm talking about I want tomorrow to be better than it is today.

1:32:13 Speaker 3 Present future.

1:32:14 Speaker 4 Right. I wa- I want tomorrow to be better than it is today. And I think everybody wants that, and we shouldn't feel that that's somehow at odds with being post-Gemara Thomas. We shouldn't feel that that's at odds with being in the Rebbe's tent, so to speak. And, uh, you know, frankly, th-this, to me, that was just such a beautiful message to hear from you today. And, um, yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for, for coming on and sharing that with us, with me, and with us.

1:32:42 Speaker 3 Sure.

1:32:43 Speaker 4 All right then, uh, Im Yirtzeh Hashem, we'll do it again sometime.

1:32:46 Speaker 3 Yeah, sure. Thank you.

1:32:48 Speaker 4 All right, man. Morah kseha metahavah kdesh b'shem Shaddai.

1:32:50 Speaker 3 Morah kseha metahavah.

1:32:52 Speaker 4 You're-

1:32:54 Speaker 3 The music for this podcast comes from the album Repentance Doors by Oren Dror and Nadav Bachar, and is used with their permission.