Ep. 69: Hei Teves 40 Years | A Bochur's Perspective with Rabbi Kasriel Shemtov

00:00 Speaker 1 It was because the Rebbe for all those years was drilling into us and teaching us that the Ruchnius is real and the Rebbe is real, and the Rebbe is with us. So later it was, it was, it was a language that we were able to understand. If not for that time that the Rebbe drilled into us and that we were involved and, and we, and we understood it and saw it at least to, to where our capacity is. The Rebbe Pasht gave us the ability to be able to have a connection today. This year we will be marking forty years since Chetes. That's forty years since Chetes Taf Shiem Mem Zayin, nineteen eighty-seven, the day that the verdict came down that the Svarim belong to the Chassidim, Tagudas Chabad, and that the Dan Notzach, we were victorious, the Rebbe was victorious. And much has been said about Chetes over the years, and it's appropriate that as the Chetes comes, we give people the opportunity to experience and to hear what exactly transpired blow by blow and what it's all about. So in honor of this occasion, we're releasing this special episode with Rabbi Kasriel Shemtov. In this conversation, it is four and a half hours or more than that, very long conversation, and it's really a deep dive. Rabbi Shemtov was a Bachar at the time during that whole period from the beginning when it all began in the summer of Taf Shiem Mem Hey, Yod Beis Tammuz, nineteen eighty-five, all the way through the

01:40 Speaker 1 appeals and the second case and the final victory in Taf Shin Nun in nineteen ninety. This is not meant to listen to in one sitting. It goes in chronological order, and in, in essence, it's a story with Rabbi Shemtov's peppering of his feelings and his, mainly his experience at the time and what it means to him today. And it's something that, um, you can look forward to and slowly but surely, or you could do it in one setting if you like, in one sitting if you like, but it would really, really enhance your understanding, your appreciation. And, uh, we've contemplated whether we should split up this episode into two or to leave it at one, but ultimately, we made the decision, let's put it all out there on the table, an almost five-hour podcast. And here you have it. Here it is. So sit back, relax, drive, walk, whatever it is. Enjoy. Don't be afraid to pause it and get back there later. But it's a worthwhile listen from beginning till end, and I hope that our listeners will learn a lot, will experience a lot, and will have a new appreciation of Chetes. And that's so appropriate as we celebrate forty years of Chetes to know what it is, what it was, and Yizkor V'nasim, how it's relevant to us today, each year more and more. Enjoy. I'm Yossi Kamen. Welcome to Among Chassidim by Der Her, an ongoing farbrengen about life as a Chassid, our vibrant connection with the Rebbe and inspired living

03:21 Speaker 1 shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Shalom Aleichem, Rabbi Shemtov. How are you? Aleichem Shalom. Thank you. Wonderful. Okay, thank you so much. As we approach Chetes, it's a very special Chetes this year because this year Chetes will be Arba'im Shana, forty years since the original Chetes, Taf Shiem Mem Zayin. So this is not really, um... There's been, there's been books published and articles in Der Her and various other sources about, you know, the full story of Chetes. I think not enough. I think there still could be some sort of official documentation of it. Um, but I think what you would really be able to bring to the table regarding this whole story of Chetes is the experience that you had as a young Bachar at the time, at the beginning of the whole saga till, till, till it was done, and that would be very beneficial for me and for everyone else to hear. So, uh, hope you can do that. We'll try. So I guess we have to start from the beginning. When does-- This is, I guess, I, I already made the disclaimer, this is in your eyes. So in your eyes, when, where does the story begin in your experience? The first time I knew anything about this was, uh, in a motel in Kalkaska, Michigan. Uh, probably another fifteen, twenty Bacharim kids. Uh, at that time, this was in the days when there was the cable TV. You were able to see the Rebbe's farbrengen. So

05:07 Speaker 1 you guys were in camp in Kalkaska. We were in camp in Kalkaska, Michigan. It was Machne Gan Yisrael, and, uh, I was a-- What was I then? A nineteen-year-old, uh, Bachar. And, um, the, the-- We were told before that there's gonna be... There's-- We actually heard before that there's gonna be something, there may be something special at this farbrengen. But regardless, there was a farbrengen on cable TV. It was, you know, we wanted to go and find a place that has-- You ne-you only were able to see it in a place that has a satellite. And the hotels and the m-- some of those places had it, so we rented a few rooms, and we went down there, and, uh, we gathered into a, into a room, and we watched the Rebbe's farbrengen. Was that the normal Seder? That was because you were expecting something. No, it was, it was at that time with cable TV. Oh, that's right. It was an opportunity to be able to do it. Could be that had an effect And that's when I remember the beginning. You know, it was-- You were watching the Rebbe's farbrengen. Uh, the cable TV farbrengens were beautiful, bachlal, to, you know, to watch. And, uh, and then the Rebbe spoke the sicha where the Rebbe for the first time mentioned in, uh... You didn't know exactly what's going on, but the Rebbe started explaining that there were some people that went in and, uh, and that there was a nes and how they

06:28 Speaker 1 were, how they were caught. And the Rebbe went into the subject of, of, of the Sfarim. And already over there, you saw that this is something dramatic. This is something that is causing agmas nefesh. And it just was, uh, you know, you, you listened, you watched it, uh, and, you know, you realize there's something, uh, that's, that's bothering the Rebbe, and this is very important. Um, we came back and, uh, following that was there was a yechidus that the Rebbe had for the urchim that came for Yo, Yod, for Yahrzeit Tammuz. Uh, usually a yechidus is a yechidus, the Rebbe speaking to the, uh, to the urchim a-about certain inyanim. And, and here the Rebbe started talking about the story of the Sfarim, and that was very different. It was much more open and much more, uh, expressing the pain. Uh, there's a, a number of subjects which people are familiar with. Uh, uh, there was both the yechidus and then there was the farbrengen afterwards of Tes Vav Tammuz. Um, and the Rebbe expressed then, uh, the, the, the pain and the fact that the-

07:43 Speaker 2 Did you hear that also? Was there a hookup to that?

07:45 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. What happened was we, we gathered into... I don't know if you've ever been to the, the Gan Israel in Detroit, but-

07:53 Speaker 2 I have.

07:54 Speaker 1 Okay. And, uh, there was a trailer. In that trailer, there's a small room. It's not more than nine feet by nine feet. We-- Not the whole camp saw the, heard the farbrengen. Uh, whether whatever. It's interesting to think back on those days. Not everyone. There wasn't a hookup for everybody. And we gathered together. We pushed into a small room. Many of the staff were busy with the kids. And, uh, there was a payphone in that room, and, uh, someone connected to the payphone some wires and things so w-everyone could hear it. And that's where we heard it. And-

08:27 Speaker 2 But you have no idea what the Rebbe's talking about the, throughout this week?

08:30 Speaker 1 We, we, we, we started finding out.

08:33 Speaker 2 From the Rebbe?

08:33 Speaker 1 From the Rebbe. A-actually, I do remember at one point after I came back to camp, and I remember specifically someone coming over to me, like shushking into my ear, that it has to do something with family. And, and I was trying to think if I, you know, if I met this person or not. And actually, that year I did. I was at seven seventy. I used to be there a lot. And, you know, I was at that time a bachur in the whole Torah. But, um, I davka did.

08:59 Speaker 2 You saw it.

09:00 Speaker 1 But the, the point was, I-- It, it was... You know, we, we heard that something that happened, you know, in, in, in those kind of inyanim, but we didn't know that much. You know, it's, it's before WhatsApp. It's before, uh, you know, even phone calls. Like, it just wasn't-- We didn't get a lot of information, but we got some information. And then I remember being in that little room where, uh, together with a bunch of chaverenim, and we're listening to the Rebbe. And again, I'm not going enough to... There was the yechidus, and then there was Tes Vav Tammuz. But to hear the Rebbe talk, it was something that I have never heard before. I mean, I was already a bachur in the whole Torah. I was by all the farbrengens during the year. There were times there were sharpes sichas. There were very strong sichas on Shabbosim and those that were there then know. But this was, like of a different nature, where you saw that the Rebbe was talking about, uh, the fact of, of taking the, the, the fried Rebbe's Sfarim, that he was moser nefesh, and to go to taking Eretz Yisrael and selling it and, and, uh, you know, many different topics. The Rebbe speaking about the inyan of Yerusha. I mean, you know, for the Rebbe to speak about these, these topics in public, you realize this, this must be something, you know, very important or very painful to the Rebbe. Uh, you can only understand it when you

10:23 Speaker 1 actually hear, hear those sichas directly from the Rebbe. And, um, I'm, I'm gonna go to Tes Vav, to Tes Vav Tammuz, uh, specifically just because in my memory right now, that stands out how, uh, a certain moment in the farbrengen that towards the end when the Rebbe's asked that we should sing certain nigunim, and the Rebbe said they should sing, uh, Shehecheyanu Vesamichtos. And the Rebbe said they should sing Shehecheyanu Vesamichtos, and that all those from around the world that are listening should, should also sing. And the, and the Rebbe said that, that, that, that the Rebbe's sure that right now... I'm sorry. In Gan Eden Ha'Tachon, in Gan Eden Ha'Elyon, wherever the schwer is, they're singing with us. And the Rebbe said there are some people that will, will, will, will think, you know, the, have a hard time like, not saying the words exactly, but it was like, well, a hard time, uh, agreeing with this. Yehirim ham, sheyeirim lo ham. Whatever their, you know, they believe. But by me, leitzach, by me is a davar pashtut that right now when we sing this nigun, they're singing with us. And basically, the Rebbe's saying that all the Hasidim around the world should be singing the nigun of Shehecheyanu Vesamichtos. That was just one... The whole sprach, everything the Rebbe was talking, sai, in both in the serious and also in, in the other part, was a kind of talk that you didn't He didn't normally hear. So, and then you could imagine in

12:14 Speaker 1 this little room, everyone singing and dancing together, the nigun. So, you know, a young bocher, it, it, you know, made a very, a very strong relation. Okay. So then, you know, I wanna take a plane, I wanna, I wanna go to New York, you know. 'Cause you're stuck in camp in Kalaska. What is this, you know? But as a chais, whatever my job was, you know, it wasn't simple. And as I was convinced not to, and then, um, and then came, we heard there was Shabbos Pinchas, which of course that was, uh, the Rebbe spoke for a very long sicha, very painful, even more than before, but I wasn't there. And, uh, the Rebbe was facing, uh, a direction that the Rebbe never usually wouldn't face. And just the whole sprach, the way the Rebbe spoke about himself, about the challenge, about how to overcome the challenge. The Rebbe said how-- The Rebbe spoke how at one point the Rebbe said that it disturbs him. He wants to learn Rashi and, and, and, and it comes into, you know, the, the, the, the aggravation or whatever it was, you know, affects. So the Rebbe's talking about himself. So these are all the things that, you know, that were, that the Rebbe was talking. And together with that, of course, I'm not, I'm not going through the whole sicha, but the Rebbe at that time, right away, already, I think it was already Yuh Bes Tammuz. The Rebbe said that seven seventy is, is on the

13:45 Speaker 1 name of Agudas Yisroel Chabad, and they should make the, the, there needs to be a nachla from the Friediker Rebbe in Eretz Yisroel. And in Kfar Chabad, they should make a place, and that should be a house of Agudas Yisroel Chabad, and that's where the Sfarim in Eretz Yisroel that were stolen could be brought.

14:03 Speaker 2 We just had a whole, uh, article in the Hera on the story of the building of the seven seventy in Kfar Chabad.

14:08 Speaker 1 Oh.

14:08 Speaker 2 Yeah.

14:09 Speaker 1 So right away from the beginning, even, even when the Rebbe spoke to the, to, to, to the Agudas Yisroel Chabad, had a yechidus already Rosh Chodesh Tammuz, which was before Yuh Bes Tammuz. And that's when the Rebbe basically laid out, um, not the whole story, but the nekuda that seven seventy, how the Friediker Rebbe wanted seven seventy, and how it belongs to, to, to Agudas Yisroel Chabad, and how there should be a place in Kfar Chabad, and all of that was already before Yuh Bes Tammuz. And by the fabrengen of Yuh Bes Tammuz, and again, I, I don't remember exactly which one, but the Rebbe's made clear that that's happening and that's the way it's gonna be, the kein yokum, and there's no way to be mehader et achareha. All the language was, was very unique, different, and, and, and, and expressing the, the urgency of the matter. Um, so, um, you know, of course, the chiddushim all over the world and everyone is, is, is touched by it. But I'm, you know, I'm just... You asked me to share from myself. So, uh, it was after, after Shabbos Pinchas, then I finally, uh, I was able to-- It was either the end of camp or I was able to go, and I went to New York. Came in the summer. It was-- I was a bocher in Alter Rebbe, but I, I just came to seven seventy. I wanted to be there. And, um, so I remember, um, I remember, uh, coming and even

15:37 Speaker 1 though I heard, I think maybe before, but I walked into seven seventy and al- it was at night. I all of a sudden I'm told there's, there's bochurim that are having Shemirah. They're having Shemirah.

15:49 Speaker 2 By the Rebbe.

15:50 Speaker 1 By the Rebbe. And there was, there was both ups-- It was the concept of the library of, of, of, of, of Shemirah, but I was told that it was, it was, it was a Shemirah by the Rebbe. And I remember like as a bocher, you know, it was, it, it like shocked me. Like I'm there and the Rebbe, you know, our Rebbe, you know, the one that everyone's ready to do anything and anyone in the world is ready to do what the Rebbe says and, and the Rebbe's, there's the Melach and, you know, so on and so on. And the Rebbe's in seven seventy in the cheider hayechidus, and there's people there that are sitting to, to, to, to... Because of, because of a problem, because of concern. It was, it was just, you know, it shocked the system. And I remember that was, that was very painful.

16:41 Speaker 2 And it was because of the Sfarim that there was like this concern.

16:44 Speaker 1 First of all, there was the idea of, of, of the Sfarim, no one coming and taking Sfarim. But at that point, I think there was a feeling that, you know, there was a concern. I don't know what the concern exactly was, but it was, it was just the concept. I'm, I'm, I'm giving you really, this is really as a, as a, as a young bocher.

17:01 Speaker 2 Impression.

17:02 Speaker 1 Impression. That was my impression. It was like one of those moments, you know. It was a moment of, of, of feeling the, what this whole situation means, that, that the Rebbe's in his own house in, you know, in seven seventy, and the Rebbe has to have a problem in seven seventy from inside. Like that was, that was very shocking. It was very painful. And the next few weeks we spent, I don't remember the timing exactly, but I spent in seven seventy, and we used to come together, a group of Chevre. Every morning we went to, to, to say Tehillim. And-

17:41 Speaker 2 This is on your own, you decided.

17:43 Speaker 1 I don't recall exactly what it was. If it was the Alter Rebbe bochurim, it was this, but I know I used to come, and we used to say Tehillim. It wasn't a big thing. It wasn't like a lot of people, but we felt like it's a, you know, it, it was important. That's, that, that was the seriousness, you know, the, the feeling of the seriousness of it. Um, and bechalal, that whole tikkun was a very, it was very difficult, at least on my end. Like, and I f- you know, that's the way it felt Uh, the Rebbe then wasn't feeling well. When I say, I think if, if I remember correctly, the Rebbe was coughing very loud and, and to the point that you were able to hear it outside. I didn't hear it personally, but I heard that the Bacharim that were there when it was quiet, that they were, they were able to hear it in the, in the lobby or in the zal. It was very... We knew that the Rebbe's pashteh not feeling good. And, and, uh, I know there was a time, and I don't know if it was right then, that a, that a doctor asked the Rebbe about it, and the Rebbe said, "Dos iz nisht, dos iz nisht fishe, sie geistish," which means it's, it's not physical, it's, it's, uh, spiritual. It's, uh, which, uh, I don't know if it means spiritual, but it mean-- at least, you know, I t- we took it-

19:00 Speaker 2 It's coming from, uh-

19:01 Speaker 1 We took it as from magen stavish. You know, that's-- it's coming from pain, you know. But I, again, that's-- I don't even know if it was right then. Could be that was another time also had to do with the, with the svarim.

19:10 Speaker 2 The Rebbe writes in other contexts, and today doctors, I think, agree with this also, that stress and everything like that can cause physical, uh, ailments, especially as by nor- as by a regular person, so.

19:22 Speaker 1 Right. So, you know, you know, so you could imagine, you know, coming and saying Tehillim, it's of 70, early morning, you know, we probably went through Tehillim. And, um, so the way, you know, I think as a bachar, that was like a beginning of-- it was really like a journey. And I look back now, five years, 'cause it wasn't over everything till Elul Tashannon, that we were engaged, we were involved. And the truth is, it was, it was, it was, it was everything of our hiskashas. I-i in a way, I think it hel- it actually developed a certain hiskashas by the bacharim of that time, because you were thinking about the Rebbe, you were thinking about the pain. You wanted to daven extra, you wanted to learn extra. You-- when, when you, when you-- whatever you did was connected. You know, it's like Chassidim, Chassidim with, with Ramoh Fabregin, and if the Rebbe isn't gezunt, right? They would say, "L'chaim, the Rebbe isn't gezunt." Over here, it was l'chaim that, that the Rebbe's magen stavish should go away, that it should be taken care of. That was the, the, at least in, in amongst the bacharim that I was, that I was around, that was the spirit. And, um, uh, and I, I really think that, that, um... And you know, it's, it's even more than that because, um, we'll probably have a chance later to talk about it, but there were so many things in the ruchniusdik inyanim. It could be a Tekiah Shofar,

20:59 Speaker 1 it could be a... What did a bachar think about? He's standing in front of Tekiah Shofar, and he's thinking of whatever's happening by Tekias. You know, am ein gedavent as, as a bottleven, ale, ale, ale menees v'ikuvem. All the problems should go away. Uh, you know, when the Rebbe spoke at Fabregins, the bacharim saw in every Fabregin at that time that the Rebbe was referring, not always formally, but it could be a Rashi, it could be a Ram- a Rambam, it could be a... Many think there were things that the Rebbe spoke openly, and I'll share some of it. But even those things that didn't warrant some, you-- if you look carefully, you could see that there was a lot that was addressing that time.

21:43 Speaker 2 I, I noticed that in my own experience, at a certain point, I learned those sichas. There's a lot, a lot of ramazin that seemingly have no connection, but, you know, you can tell that, that it's connected throughout the whole period.

21:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. So, so bemele, it wasn't, it, it wasn't only like a story and, and, you know, it happened, and then there's eight tavis. You know, there was, there was throughout every day of that year, Tashim and Vav, a bachar that was there constantly was living with this, with what was happening. Anyway-

22:21 Speaker 2 So what are some of the actual events that, uh, that, that happened? So I-

22:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. So-

22:28 Speaker 2 Talk about the summer coming back and then-

22:30 Speaker 1 Right. So we come to Tishrei. So I, I mentioned, I mentioned Tekiah Shofar. I remember, you know, anyone that was by Tekiah Shofar knows that that was something they'll never forget. And, um, but I, I-- the w-- in my recollection, even by, by Tekiah Shofar itself, besides thinking about it yourself, um, together with, of course, to think about your own vu hals dov developed, but, you know, you thought about the Rebbe. I mean, you know, and, and I, I remember in, in, in that by-- when the Rebbe said, you know, Al Yashkun iz eidem. So, um, first of all, I, I, I don't remember that, but someone, someone's told me that, that, that, uh... I, I remember there was something by Al Yashkun iz eidem that, that happened. So there was one thing that someone said that there was, uh, the Rebbe said, Al Yashkun, Bal Yashkun iz eidem.

23:26 Speaker 2 I've heard from people that the Rebbe said that in Behes. I don't know if it could be both.

23:29 Speaker 1 Okay. So I, I don't remember that in Vav.

23:31 Speaker 2 Okay.

23:31 Speaker 1 But what I remember was, and, and, and it could be I'm mixing up Vav and Zayin, that when the Rebbe said Al Yashkun iz eidem, I remember something of like a, a krecht or something different in Al Yashkun iz eidem. But that was always the way it was in my memory. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I, I don't know. But the point was, when you thought about a Tekias, when you thought about, you know, Rosh Hashanah by Fabregin. So comes the Fabregin, and the Rebbe, the Rebbe stands up. The Rebbe says with a-- with Simcha-

24:02 Speaker 2 Simcha stav

24:03 Speaker 1 ...a Simcha steyre Fabregin, and the Rebbe stands up to dance. Now, you have to remember, the Rebbe didn't stand to dance, I think, till the-- since the end of the Lamed. And Rosh Hashanah, the Rebbe should say, «מזולנג הא ס'מחה שטייער ניגן» and to dance. The Rebbe will, as, as, as, as, as I'll soon share, one of the things that was very strong from Tishrei all the way through was the inyan of Simcha. That how do we take care of all the menees v'ikuvem and all the, all the in-inyanim, uh, hametzarim, that you overcome it davka through Simcha. And you see already Rosh Hashanah, you see that all of a sudden there was this thing that was a tomru chidush, you know, at that time. Um, the second thing that comes to my mind of T- of Tishrei was, was, was Simcha steyre. Um, so Simcha steyre Mevav is, is, uh, above us this, is, uh, above us the, the Fabregin. Lately, there was an-- Kinis of Schluchim was, was learned. Um, so I remember for myself, um, I went to-- we went on talucha, and we went to a, a regular far place, you know, wherever the whole crowd go- wherever the whole crowd went. Not very, not more than, not very far, but you know, it was... I don't remember where they went. They used to always go to either Borough Park or Flatbush, wherever it was. And, uh, usually what happens is after everyone finishes in their shuls, everyone comes together to

25:31 Speaker 1 a place and it's like machen kiddish, and then you wait, and then there's a, a police escort, and it took a long time. And then you would arrive, and you'd come to the Rebbe's farbrengen. Um, and I wanted to come back and be there by the Rebbe's farbrengen. So, but I, I have to go on taluka. So I, I got two friends, and I actually not sure who they are right now, but I remember it was two bochurim. And, uh, I went... We, we decided, we, we went to a place, we finished ma'ariv, and then instead of going and doing the whole thing, we met up. We're gonna just... We ran back the whole way. Pusha ran back. And, uh, it wasn't something I would usually do because, you know, there's dangerous places and police.

26:16 Speaker 6 It's related to, to the matzav then or, or just whatever? I-

26:20 Speaker 1 It, it was a, it was a ratzon to be there. No-

26:22 Speaker 6 It had to be that year you-

26:23 Speaker 1 It, it was, it was, it was... We wanted to be by the Rebbe.

26:25 Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

26:26 Speaker 1 And, um, and, uh, so I, I come back and we... You know, you arrive like mamish after the beginning of the farbrengen. The place is empty, more, you know, emptier than I've ever seen. It was very special, you know, like you were, you were there and it was like, I was a little concerned, like I should be seen, you know.

26:46 Speaker 6 You should-

26:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. But we arrived very early on and, um, and then, um, and then you had where over there also, the Rebbe finished off. I came middle of the first sicha and, and the, the Rebbe stood up again. And, um, uh, so that was obviously very special. And then the Rebbe started talking, and I'm, I'm bringing this up for a reason because I believe this was a beginning of something that had to do with the whole kitrug and the whole ma'aseh of Cheit Taivos. The Rebbe started talking about the shluchim. Now, remember, the shluchim generally are not there, so Chas V'Shalom, but the Rebbe started speaking about the shluchim from the Siddur Eino. At first, the Rebbe said that because we're speaking about, you know, simcha and if, uh, from the schwer, that the whole, you know, of the mitzvah yum b'simcha, so it should start with the shluchim saying l'chaim because the iyonim of the Nosi Hader go through the shluchim and to all the Yidden. And then melech, when you're starting with simcha, it should be the haschalah from the shluchim. And the Rebbe was-- I'm not gonna go into all the details, but so that was one thing. And then the Rebbe started talking about, uh, something which at that time was shocking. The Rebbe said that a shliach, uh, that a, that a, that a shliach, when you do the gematria, the numeric value of, of, of, of, of the word shliach, and you have, you add to that the eser kychos

28:13 Speaker 1 hanefesh, um, the 10 powers of the soul, um, uh, to that, then it becomes the gematria of Mashiach. And the Rebbe explained how the Friediker Rebbe, the Nosi Hader is the Moshiach SheBeider. And how when you, when a shliach goes-- A-and the Rebbe spoke about all Yidden, that everyone in the generation is, is when you're megalleh, uh, when you're megalleh the, the, the, the, this is the, the shlichas that you have from Nosi Hader, that is megalleh the nitat of Mashiach. Again, I'm not being exactly accurate here, but that was the nekuda. So for me, you know, I, you know, I'm standing... Bechol, the Rebbe did not speak about shlichus a lot before-

28:58 Speaker 6 In those years, yeah.

29:00 Speaker 1 All the years.

29:00 Speaker 6 I mean, I think in the chaf's.

29:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:02 Speaker 6 Yeah.

29:02 Speaker 1 For many years, the Rebbe didn't speak about shluchim and shlichus and all that. And here, the... I'm sta- I still remember where I was standing and, like, it was, like, overwhelming that I felt like this is a gila. This is like, uh, that the Rebbe is first of all saying about Mashiach, Mashiach SheBeider. And, and, you know, that was truthfully the big- the most overwhelming part because was it a year before when the Rebbe said about Kel Adonenu?

29:28 Speaker 6 Year before the Rebbe rejected-

29:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. The year before-

29:30 Speaker 6 At the chaf

29:30 Speaker 1 ... the Hasidim were singing Kel Adonenu, and there was a sharp sicha, and I was there. I, I heard it. And now the Rebbe is, like, saying in, with such kind of language, and it was, it was... So that itself was, was overwhelming. But then the Rebbe started speaking about that this is all, you know, all people of generation, legayot what the Rebbe was talking about. But then there are those who were appointed by the Nosi Hader or by his shluchim, and every shliach could make up ad meya shluchim. And the Rebbe explained many times of, of that means basically, you know, forever, forever. And, and the Rebbe said that those sh- those, uh, shluchim, um, in other words, are... The Rebbe used the term then that, you know, you wanna-- That to be able to do it, to be able to accomplish this, you have to have haskachas. And, like, until you get to a point of haskachas of actually being a shliach and going out and doing hafatzas yadas, hafatzas yadas and, and so on and so forth. And the Rebbe was saying that this is possible and shayeach to everyone in our generation, that everyone could be a shliach. And the Rebbe also said it's not, uh... The Rebbe also said that it's the responsibility of the shluchim to see to it that everyone should become shluchim sidureinu because it has to be malchus ve'ratzon kiblalayim. It has to be ve'ratzon. So th-they have to see to it that there should be

31:03 Speaker 1 a ratzon- To be a shliach

31:06 Speaker 6 Just a-

31:07 Speaker 1 Which by the way, I haven't seen anyone speak about this, and it's a side note. I think that it's, it's, it's a very important point that the Rebbe is saying that... And the Rebbe says specifically, those shluchim that are already shluchim have a responsibility to create a desire-

31:23 Speaker 6 By others

31:23 Speaker 1 ...by others. So that's, that's, that was a, that's a, that's a very important point. And al kapone what you saw through chof ha'brenga, and all of a sudden the Rebbe was talking about the idea. And, and the Rebbe said then that, that of course, you know, you become a shliach through, through a, uh, through by, by being appointed through a shtaha shah, uh, through a, like a contract or bedibur, beksav or bedibur. And, uh, I know from the Rebbe actually was magiya that, uh, the Rebbe actually edited that and added something to it. Um, so on one hand, the Rebbe is saying every Yid is a shliach, first of all from, from the Deibeshteh. Second of all, we're all, we're all in the generation of, of, of the Rebbe. And at the s- at the same time, the Rebbe was, was encouraging the idea of shlichas in general. Um, you- we'll see later when we talk about what happens in Kislev that this was a beginning of a whole new level of the Rebbe talking about shlichas and making Batei Chabad around the world. And then the whole year, there was, there was a, a new language of how the Rebbe began to speak about it. And it was clear that this was the answer to the whole threat and the whole kitruk, so to speak, of what happened with the Sfarim, the Reb- that the Rebbe saw it as a, as a, as a, as, as a spiritual kitruk. And the response is by

32:53 Speaker 1 doing more and by doing more of what the Rebbe, what the Rebbe, what the Rebbe brought us, uh, brought in our generation, the whole thing of shlichas. And that's why I'm mentioning that sicha because it was an im-

33:05 Speaker 6 It was a theme that ha- started

33:06 Speaker 1 It was a theme that I, that it seems to me that it started-

33:10 Speaker 6 Connection to-

33:10 Speaker 1 It started already Sichas HaShavua. And later, you know, we see it more begolly. Later, the Rebbe was connecting it more. Hanukkah, the Rebbe was gonna connect it more.

33:18 Speaker 6 Yes, to whatever.

33:19 Speaker 1 Here, the Rebbe didn't connect it, at least in my memory, directly with, you know, with the case.

33:24 Speaker 6 So we have two things they already mentioned. How the Rebbe spoke about counteracting the, the whole story, simcha and, and shlichas.

33:34 Speaker 1 Exactly. And Batei Chabad. Later-

33:36 Speaker 6 Batei Chabad

33:36 Speaker 1 ...the Rebbe used the lashon Batei Chabad just... You know, we, we, we'll have a lot of chance when we go through the-

33:42 Speaker 6 There's also other things that happened in fabrengen also that were, uh-

33:47 Speaker 1 Oh. Okay. You... One second. Yeah, that was the one with the cup.

33:51 Speaker 6 Yeah.

33:51 Speaker 1 And that we'll talk another time. That was-

33:53 Speaker 6 The Rebbe said to turn everything over, yeah.

33:55 Speaker 1 Unbelievable.

33:55 Speaker 6 Yeah.

33:56 Speaker 1 Unbelievable. It was such a mess. It was such a scene, the way the Rebbe was holding it. It was-- That's a story for itself. I, I guess we're, we're keeping to the Tetus, um, um-

34:08 Speaker 6 Okay

34:09 Speaker 1 So, uh, yeah. Al Kapon.

34:16 Speaker 6 So what's the next, uh-

34:18 Speaker 1 So then came during Tishrei, I think it was, and again, I might be off in my, in my memory right now. Um, there was one time, maybe it was the beginning of Cheshvan, but it could be it was Tishrei, middle of Tishrei, that the lawyers came, and they had a, they had a... Maybe you know the date, but they had, um, a yechidus with the Rebbe. It was in Kenesset HaChacham. There was a table, and the Rebbe, and they were there. And then Rabbi Kinsky, Rabbi Shemtov were there, Avremel, and, um-

34:45 Speaker 6 The Bachurim knew about this?

34:47 Speaker 1 We were, we were outside. I was outside. I remember knowing that, that they were inside. So it wasn't-

34:54 Speaker 6 How much information today, like we, you know, we quote-unquote, know everything. You guys knew what was going on with the lawyers, with this, with like, there was like-

35:01 Speaker 1 It depends when. What I'm sharing with you now is what I knew at the time.

35:05 Speaker 6 Right.

35:06 Speaker 1 Of course, there's more things, uh, now we know.

35:07 Speaker 6 No, half the things you already mentioned, there's like so many layers of details. Like we know the whole Yud Beis Tammuz fabrengen. We know that there's a whole, the, the Rebbe met before with, with-

35:16 Speaker 1 Right

35:16 Speaker 6 ...the Rebbe said he's gonna speak about it by the fabrengen if nothing happens, right? There's a whole background. But-

35:20 Speaker 1 Right

35:20 Speaker 6 ...we're not getting it there. Y-how, how you-

35:23 Speaker 1 Right. You asked, you asked me to share-

35:25 Speaker 6 How you perceive the-

35:25 Speaker 1 What I, what I witnessed and when I was there. Um, look, whatever I'm saying is the way I saw it as a bachur.

35:32 Speaker 6 Right.

35:33 Speaker 1 You know? Obviously, you know, it's, uh, you know, these, these things, th-these are the things that-

35:40 Speaker 6 I mean, it, it is influenced 'cause it's post-Petekes, right? You know?

35:44 Speaker 1 Of course.

35:44 Speaker 6 Yeah, of course. Obviously.

35:45 Speaker 1 Yeah.

35:46 Speaker 6 Yeah.

35:46 Speaker 1 These are things that, that, um, that you forget less. It's, you know, you, you... These were things that impacted you. It's not-

35:54 Speaker 6 It's not, it's not information that you heard. It's something that you lived through.

35:56 Speaker 1 Right.

35:57 Speaker 6 Yeah. Okay, so the yechidus with the lawyers, you were standing outside.

36:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, I was standing outside. The, the lawyers were there, but I, I actually don't recall right now if... It could be it was even in the middle of Tishrei. Um, anyway, we'll, we'll find out. We'll look it up. We'll ask the Bachurim today. We'll ask the Bachurim today. They'll tell us. They'll know when it was exactly. Um, so yeah. So they, they were by the Rebbe. And also that could be also the ti- could be it was the beginning of Cheshvan, but that was also could be the time when, when, um, Av-uh, Avremel Shemtov later told about how the Rebbe, how the Rebbe gave guidance about using the letter of marks and, uh, they-

36:37 Speaker 6 That's the cornerstone of the kids

36:38 Speaker 1 That would, that should be the cornerstone, and they... Lubavitch thought that way, and then they realized that it was. It actually made it into the verdict, but that's... So that was w-w... But I did not know much at the time. I, I didn't. Till Yud Gimmel Kislev. Yud Gimmel Kislev was a fabrengen. Avremel shared, uh-

36:56 Speaker 6 Information

36:57 Speaker 1 ...some information so that... I didn't know details. Could be there were guys that knew. I, I didn't know. Um, and- The next thing that I remember in Chashvan, um, I was-- I, I, I wasn't even so familiar exactly that there's a case exactly when and what. I, I didn't know everything, uh, but I do-did know that there was a deposition for the Rebbetzin. And that was, you know, even, even from the little bit that I knew, you know, it was, uh, uh, you know, we knew they're coming to, to... Th-they were very concerned about it. I mean, r-you know, Sai, the, the people in the were very concerned about it. Um, and, you know, and, um, there were also other Hasidim, shluchim, senior shluchim, as, as they're called today , you know, uh, that were very concerned about it. And people were thinking of ways, how do we change this? How do we stop this? There was a number- The Rebbe- There was a number of efforts that were, that were, you know, considered. Um, but as we now know that the Rebbe told Rabbi Krinsky that, uh, like, the Rebbe's not worried. She'll, she'll... The language that they say is she'll pass with flying colors. I just, uh, had a little discovery about that. Yeah. I know you're the one s-talking obviously. I don't know if I should interject, but I'm just- No. It's something that I figured out recently. So the, uh, the Krinsky always says that the Rebbe said he, he thought

38:23 Speaker 1 just like he's gonna fight that the Rebbe shouldn't make a deposition, that the Rebbetzin also should not. And the Rebbe s- the Rebbe told him, "No, no, sh-she'll pass or whatever. She'll m- she'll go through with flying colors." And he always uses that language. But I once heard a recording many years ago of him talking about it, and he says flying colors, and someone's like, on his case. And I'm just Yeah. And then, then he says, um, this person has asked him, kept-- keeps on asking him again and again. He said, "No, no." So he, he, he, like it made him confused. Like, "Oh." Got his Shure vashem ring. Yeah. So I just found, uh, um, a few months ago, I found out, uh, from someone from Yirmi Berkowitz that in his diary, you know, the Krinsky's diary from then, it says that language, flying colors. And not only that, there's a sikha, um, from before then. I forgot, I forgot the date. I think it was a Chalomid rally. Forgetting the date that the Rebbe used in a rally that flying colors. And I'm sitting with him, and he's like, "One second." He-he's showing me Hanucha. I'm like, "One second. There's a tape of this." So he pulled up the tape, and it's on tape. You can hear the Rebbe say this word flying colors. So that he remembers very good. I mean, it's in, it's in his diary from then, but this is a that the Rebbe used. Wow. I'm so happy you're

39:35 Speaker 1 telling me that. Yeah. I actually- Yeah. I, I, I thought about it a number of times. I, I, I already presumed that, like, no, that he's just translating in his mind. I'm like, "No, no, no, this is a that the Rebbe used, flying colors. So but we didn't know about that. Right. You know, I-I'll tell you. I-- One thing I remember when I, when I heard that there's the Hatzalah was outside the Rebbe's house. That's what I heard at the time. During the, during the Rebbetzin deposition. During deposition. Now, I, whether... Now I'm hearing that Lav Davka was really needed or whatever the reason. But in my mind, you can imagine, you know, you hear that there's a deposition and the Rebbetzin and there's Hatzalah outside. What, what are you supposed to think? You know, you're thinking of, you, you, you know. So it was a, it w- you know, again, you're asking for a you know. It was, it was, it was very hard to, you know. It was, it was very difficult. And of course, we, we said Tehillim and this, but you know, that, that's what, that's what happened at the time. We all know, now we know, in other words, what the some of the things the Rebbetzin said at the, at the deposition. And, um, you know, i-I don't know, one of the things that, that interested me was, uh, that the Rebbetzin, that the Rebbetzin said when they asked her, when they asked the Rebbetzin about, uh, that, that

40:53 Speaker 1 she ever used the language that, like, that they could do this, b'lipi pirsum without publish, publish- As if she gave permission. As, as if she gave permission. B'lipi pirsum. And the Rebbetzin, I think she thinks... I didn't see it, but, but what it's written, you know, and I was, or told by people is that- You didn't see it, um, 'cause you don't wanna see it? I, I never... I, I saw a few seconds. I, I- All right ... I just didn't feel right. I didn't- Okay ... you know. No, you, you, you're taking me back. Um, yeah. So that was, that was, that was- She said b'lipi pirsum. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. So she said b'lipi pirsum, and it's interesting to me because- She said that the only time I said this- Oh, she said the only time I said this. No, she, I think she thought, and then she said, or she says the, the last time that she said b'lipi pirsum or the only time she said b'lipi pirsum was when the was released in, in, in, in, in, in, in Castrama. Right. And she called to the family to say that, that he's coming out, that the is coming out, and it should be b'lipi pirsum. It, it was just... It's so fascinating, you know. Uh, the, you, you know, the, the first of all, the is gerecht. You know, everything is thought through, and everything is... And to me also, it was like very special. We're getting a little off the

42:19 Speaker 1 topic. You know, there's a whole sikha where the Rebbe explains this concept of b'lipi pirsum. That, that what? The Reb- Rebbe explains a whole beard that Yuvetz Thomas is connected with the w- Right ... English- But no one understood why the Rebbe is saying that. Right. Yeah. And it was the Rebbetzin that said that. Yeah. And, and, but, but it was also another thing that was interesting for me, uh, uh, in terms of the Rebbetzin, that there was another case where the Rebbetzin was in So 70, uh, when, when the Rebbe left Rosh Chodesh Kislev, and from the, from So 70. And all the Bachrim were there, and they were dancing and everything else, and there was a Simcha Gedola. And the Rebbetzin said on the Bachrim, at least that's why I remember it, that the Rebbetzin said something like, "Maladetsen," like these are Chevre light. And the Rebbetzin said something like that this type of Simcha was You know, was, was like Yud Beis Dames.

43:09 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm.

43:09 Speaker 1 So-

43:10 Speaker 6 It all connected, yeah.

43:11 Speaker 1 It ju- it just gives you an understanding. So first we're talking about Eight Teves, you know, what is in the life of, of by the Rebbetzin Yud Beis Dames? What... You know, what else is there? You know, it's like, so it... Beliefe also connects with that. This is connecting with that. It was a, an interesting, interesting thing. But well, I wanna tell you that, you know, in our time as Bachrim, I don't know, uh, you know, I can't tell you for sure, but it... somehow I get a sense that in our... those years, the Bachrim felt a very strong to the Rebbetzin, um, more than I think in some other years, at least from what I hear. And I think it, I think it happened for a number of reasons, um, or that s- for some people, uh, you know, that, that there was a time the Rebbetzin wasn't feeling well, and the Rebbetzin fell and, uh, or, or, or th- th- it was, it was a gesund issues that started coming up. So, you know, naturally of Hasidim, you have a to the Rebbe, you're thinking about what's to the Rebbe, and you're think about the Rebbetzin. And so it became like five bios. It became a thing. We used to say till him for the Rebbetzin, you know. I know I, you know, I used to see a, a certain Hasidim, you know, say L'Chaim, and they would always say, "The Rebbetzin is gesund, uh, the Rebbetzin is gesund." You know, it, it

44:39 Speaker 1 became in our time, I think, more of something that was on our minds. And also when I was that in '70, all of a sudden we started hearing things, different comments from the Rebbetzin. And again, maybe years earlier it was also, but at least in my time, and it had to do with this case, a number of things that happened. Uh, there was a story with there was, uh, when someone was-- didn't act properly and different things that we heard comments of the Rebbetzin. So just naturally you, you were more aware that the Rebbetzin is there and, and, and, and you, you thought about her, you daven for the Rebbetzin, you cared about the Rebbetzin, and you realized, you know, it was more central in our life. I remember once in that, in that time, I was, I was outside of... It was Shabbos afternoon and the ch-- it was Shabba-- I shouldn't say it's the afternoon. It was whenever it was exactly. Um, it was in the Chatzah of at that time they used to have these benches. It, it was different than it's now. And the s- the si-- the, the, the sidewalk in the Chatzah used to go right up to the, to the, the library would... I don't know how to describe this, but there was a window from the library where the Rebbe and the Rebbetzin both were there for Shabbos and-

46:05 Speaker 6 Into the Chatzah.

46:06 Speaker 1 And, and it was-- and the end of the Chatzah with the benches was right in line with that window. And so I remember once, uh, it was for some reason, you know, that's the way we, uh, you know, we were in the Chatzah. You didn't always, uh, you know, you didn't always keep everything in mind. And I was there myself, and I was davening and, uh, you know, n-not as I should have with, with a minyan or, or davi- davened. And I was standing with a siddur, and I was walking back and forth, uh, right there, basically opposite that window. And all of a sudden, I see the image of... The, the curtain was like a little bit like open, and I see the image of the Rebbetzin standing and basically there was no one else, you know. So I, I, I guess I'm just mentioning this. This was... It was, it was a time when we, we were very in tune, or we were trying to be in tune with what was happening and what was important to the Rebbe. And it was... We were, we were, we were at a Fabringen once, um, late at night in fourteen eighteen. I was, I wa- I wasn't yet in seven seventy. I wasn't, uh, but I used to go there to Fabringen with some Bachar, Alter Bachar. Anyway, we're sitting in Fabringen late at night and with, uh, he's like L'Chaim, and, uh, one of the unique boys came in, and it was, uh, the,

47:36 Speaker 1 the youngest one I think he was. And, uh, now that we're after L'Chaim, so I was telling him, you know, that, you know, how, how we sang Tune for the Rebbetzin and how, and how, uh, um... And again, we were after L'Chaim, so I was-- we were kinda telling him to tell the Rebbetzin that the Bacharim are, are, are, are, you know, are, are saying Tillim and davening for her and so on. And, um, even after, even after that L'Chaim didn't think it was actually a real thing, you know, it was, uh, actually gonna happen. But later he told me that he did, that he did. And, um, so again, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just giving you a, a flavor of what it meant, you know, you know, you know, at that time for Bacharim. At least again, the Bacharim that I was, that I was with. Um, anyway, so that was the deposition. That was the deposition that went through, and then came, uh, then came Kislev.

48:41 Speaker 6 Mm-hmm.

48:43 Speaker 1 So for example, um, Shabbos Vach Kislev, I'm just going by what's coming to my mind now. Shabbos Vach Kislev was a Fabringen and, um, the, the Fabringen the Rebbe focused a lot on the union of Simcha and how the Hasidism is, is, uh, brings the union of Simcha into Yiddishkeit and so on and so forth. And the Rebbe went through a whole, a whole sikha of, of different levels of Simcha from Meidani and so on. A, a, a major part of the Fabringen was about the union of Simcha. And The Rebbe used language like that, that takes away the min-- the, the and, uh, and again, I don't remember now the lotion, but there was those lashonas. It was that language of that this will overcome the problems when there's Chayshech, et cetera, et cetera. So again, we were all there, and we realized the Rebbe is saying that by having Simcha, you are... That's the way to take care of, of the problem. So Motzei Shabbos, the Bacharim were dancing, um, and, and we were, you know, we, we danced, uh, Motzei Shabbos like, uh, many hours. Um, and I remember how there were people that looked at us like, you know, like Canoyim or Shaytim or whatever it was. You know, we didn't get a very good reaction from, from the peop- from the older people. But for the Bacharim, it was, it was clear. The Rebbe's saying that through Simcha we're gonna be able to accomplish this. So that was, you know,

50:19 Speaker 1 so that, that was happening. That was, I remember specifically Shabbos of our Ham. Um, and then came Yud Kislev. So Yud Kislev was also a Shabbos. I think it was Shabbos, uh, Parshat Vayeitzei, I think, um, if I'm correct. Uh, and-

50:40 Speaker 7 There's, uh, there's, um, there's Shkedish Kislev. Okay.

50:43 Speaker 1 And then, then the Rebbe-- So the Rebbe then spoke about the, the, the Mitteler Rebbe. Or maybe it was, maybe it wasn't on Shabbos, but it was-

50:50 Speaker 7 What about a Shkedish Kislev? There was also-

50:52 Speaker 1 Oh. First of all, sh- there was a sicha. In, in that Shabbos of our Kislev, there was a sicha about Shluchim. And, but there, there was a Kness of Shluchim at that time, you know. So there, there was, there was a, a small... In those days, Kness of Shluchim wasn't what it was later. It wasn't the whole farbrengen dedicated to it, but there was already there, and the Rebbe mentions about, more about the Chabad, et cetera. Um, and remind me, what are you saying about Rosh Kislev?

51:21 Speaker 7 That, I mean, there, there was also, there's also festivities then, Shkedish Kislev farbrengen and, uh-

51:26 Speaker 1 Oh, oh, okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So what happened was, I think it was 5 Cheshvan, I think, that a good sicha made had a yechidus by the Rebbe. And that was, that was, uh, a very, a very sharp yechidus. Very sharp yechidus. They came in. The Rebbe was, I, I think it was in Kikar HaTachon. And the Rebbe was-

51:51 Speaker 7 'Cause basically, there hasn't, much wasn't done all these months about the Sfarim.

51:59 Speaker 1 I'm not sure. I don't know if they were already maybe preparing the case.

52:02 Speaker 7 There was case-

52:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, they were ready. There was already action. There was a-

52:05 Speaker 7 Okay, go ahead.

52:06 Speaker 1 But they came to the Rebbe because they thought they saw what's happening. They, they-

52:11 Speaker 7 Uh, there maybe 'cause there was about to be a court case.

52:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:13 Speaker 7 Right.

52:13 Speaker 1 Yeah.

52:14 Speaker 7 Right.

52:14 Speaker 1 Tremendous agmas nefesh. There was also the issue of the Rebbe having to give testimony, which everyone thought was, would be terrible because the whole reason they were coming, uh, same thing with the Rebbetzin, but the whole reason they were coming was to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the opposite of honor and melucha. You know, that the Rebbe should have to answer questions, and they would come, and et cetera, et cetera. It would've been a, for, for Hasidim, uh, Hasidim didn't, would never allow it. But the Rebbe said that he would do it. And so they came to the Rebbe, and they wanted to offer-

52:47 Speaker 7 Good.

52:47 Speaker 1 A good sicha Chabad, and they wanted to offer some way of settling it financially, uh, whatever it was. I don't know exactly. Um, and it wasn't only... It was, it was people, in my opinion, they were Hasidim Yidden. They, they they didn't want the Rebbe to have agmas nefesh.

53:04 Speaker 7 They say in America, they meant well.

53:06 Speaker 1 They meant well. You know, they were coming to, "'Cause we gotta stop this. We gotta somehow, we gotta somehow bring this to an end," you know? And, uh, but they came, they came to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe is speaking in an incredibly sharp way.

53:19 Speaker 7 You, you guys heard this?

53:20 Speaker 1 No. No, no, no.

53:21 Speaker 7 Okay.

53:22 Speaker 1 There were maybe some guys that heard from outside Kikar HaTachon. I don't know. But they re-- I'll soon tell you when they, they told us about it. They told us not everything, but they told us a little bit. Um, what happened was they, they, the Rebbe said, the Rebbe basically said to them like, like, like almost like, "Where are you know, where is that, where are you? Was there tillim said? Was there tzedakah said?" The Rebbe mentioned another, another, uh, uh, group of Yidden that when they had a t-trouble, they made a tannis, they made a fast day. Was, was, you know, where, you know, where is the, you know, is the, is the, is, is, is tzedakah being given? Is, is tillim being said? And, and, and, um, uh, the Rebbe used a pasuk of saying that when you, when you, you know, cry out to the Aibishter, that the Aibishter listens, et cetera, et cetera. And, um, and at that time, the Rebbe expressed that this is not-- This is about the bankle. And the, uh, I believe the Rebbe pointed to the chair, which means it, it's about the whole idea of, uh, the whole idea of the nasius of... You know, they wanted to say Lubavitch stopped. This I'm adding myself. The, the Lubavitch stopped, uh, uh, by the Friddiker Rebbe, and that was, is, you know, it's not the real thing, kiilu. Or whatever it i- whatever they wanna say, I don't, I don't, I can't interpret, you know, what

54:38 Speaker 1 w-was... But the point was the Rebbe was speaking about it like this is a qu-- this is a mechabed, this is a, a, a, a war against the Alter Rebbe and the, all the Rabbeim and it, and-

54:49 Speaker 7 The Rebbe said it then in Yiddish.

54:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the Rebbe said then, uh, then in Aloshon, "Michut ve'atsreyach na," like by Avraham. And, and that, that, uh, i-in other words, there was no-- This wasn't something that you can compromise on. This w-- This is not a question of money. It's a question is that these are the ho-- And this I'm saying myself. This is, these are the holy Sfarim that are part of the life of the Rebbe, of the Friddiker Rebbe. Part of his life, that's where the life of a tzadik is, is in-

55:22 Speaker 7 Those are not your words. Those are the Rebbe's words.

55:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm, I'm just, I'm trying just to give share for anyone that doesn't know the, the details, that this is the life of a Rebbe. His life is the Sfarim. His life i-- A Sefer of a tzadik is, is, is part of a tzadik. The Rebbe used the l- the term at one point that, that they wanna make a levaya of the, of, of, of, of the Rebbe again. In other words, by taking Sfarim away, you're taking a piece of the Rebbe. The, the langua- the, the, the Rebbe s- the Rebbe spoke about a s- the Sfarim of, of, of the Friddiker Rebbe. Besides the fact that the Friddiker Rebbe, the Pashut gave away his last money and mesirat nefesh mamash for these Sfarim. But beruch nisyonim, uh, the, the life of a tzadik is his aveh, his yirah, his love of Hashem, his fear of Hashem, his, his, his, his, his, his, his svarim, his, his, his learning and his svarim. And then when you wanna take that and say that it's not anymore holy and you're gonna sell it s- on the open market, the Rebbe said, like, like, you know, i-i-it's unbecoming even for an eved, for a, for a, for a, for a slave. So by the Rebbe, this was something that you can't-- it has to be determined that this belongs to Lubavitch, the Chabad, because that's the Rebbe. That's the Friediker Rebbe. So that was the nekuda. It wasn't about, you know, how much value is

56:37 Speaker 1 it, how much money is it. So in that sicha, the Rebbe, you know, c-clarified that in a very strong way that the, the, that this needs to be determined. And the Rebbe said then, "I'm ready to go to court. I'm ready to..." You know, the Rebbe was ready to do anything to see to it that this happens. This was-- these were things that we, you know, uh, it was, it was very painful, you know. Y- and, and, and we, we kind of-- the idea that this was a inyan of Nesi'as, and it was something that's the way the Bochurim spoke vachlal. Um, you know, but here the Rebbe, you know, the Rebbe said it.

57:16 Speaker 7 It went from, like, a, a herges of Bochurim to, no, that's the Rebbe saying that's what it is.

57:20 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Now, this wasn't yet public. Now, the, uh, I'll tell you, it was, uh, Rosh Chodesh Kislev was... First of all, it's important to understand, at that time, uh, at least my memory, there was no such thing as a sud in seven-seventy. Uh, you know, you didn't have these kinda gatherings of everybody. In Mamash, you're talking about even until, until that time. There was once a year, and that was the Rosh Chodesh Kislev Suda. That was the Yom Tov of Chassidim and, and, and, um, and, and it was, in my, in my memory, it's, like, a very large crowd. But whatever it was, there was long tables, and the gazebos were there. It was a Yom Simcha. It was, it was the day of the Rebbe. So you can imagine, you know, we're in the middle of this day of Rosh Chodesh Kislev by the Suda, and they-- kind of they came in together, a number of members of Aguch. For many years, I thought they came directly from the Sichas, but I don't think it was. I think the Sichas was a few days earlier. But they somehow they met, and they came in, and then they started sharing. And they didn't share everything, but they shared parts of it. There was, there was Zalman Gourary, some, uh... There was a number of people that spoke, and they shared how there's an-- that the Rebbe wanted to teir a tefilat staka. The Rebbe said it to, to the members of Agudas Chabad, but

58:35 Speaker 1 they understood that it's not just for them, that it's for everybody. And so right then in middle of the Suda, we, we stood up. The whole elok stood up, and we're saying Tehillim. And, you know, that's, like, another, I don't know, for some reason in my, you know-

58:51 Speaker 7 Core memory.

58:52 Speaker 1 Yeah. You, you imagine you're standing there, you're in seven-seventy. The Rebbe is upstairs or you're in... It's a Rosh Chodesh Kislev. It's the day, the happiest day in the year. The Rebbe's asking for Simcha, and we're part just saying Tehillim. You know, we're, like, davening for a eis tzuara. It was, it was just-- it was something that was, like, surreal. Like, like, is this really happening? You know, is this... And, and so, you know, we realized. For many people, that was, like, a, a moment that they realized that this is, this is, you know, this is very serious. Um...

59:28 Speaker 7 Then you started talking about Yud Kislev, going back. You skipped this, and you went to-- I think you were talking about Yud Kislev.

59:34 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So then the, kind of the next, the, the, the, the next one of the farbrengens, I think it was Shabbos Yud Kislev. I have to double-check that. I'm not sure. But whatever, whatever it was, it was, it was-- the whole farbrengen was about Yud Kislev. And the Rebbe spoke then about, um, about, uh, again, uh, the Rebbe's speaking about the Fried-- about the Mitteler Rebbe. And the Rebbe basically, as far as I remember, a major part of the farbrengen went on the inyan of Simcha, that the whole, you know, M-Mitteler Rebbe's rechav hasaanar, uh, the idea of breath, uh, expansion of, of the whole, uh, so the whole idea of Chassidus, hafatz hamayanis and everything else. But then the Rebbe spoke about Eima bonim semeicha and the whole thing of bina, s-sfirah bina, and that this is all the idea of Simcha, and that that's what Chassidus brings. The Rebbe said at one point, maybe it was this farbrengen Shabbos Vach, the Rebbe said when a, when a shliach goes out and he's mekarav someone and so on and so forth, like you see what we ask him, "What, what, uh, what did you... You know, what did Yiddishe God give you?" Whatever he'll say, it made him, it made him happy or something like that. It was something about the inyan of Simcha. So it was a whole farbrengen about or a lot of a farbrengen about the inyan of Simcha. And in there, the Rebbe again said how, how there's-- that

1:00:50 Speaker 1 this takes care of the inyanim ameval, the inyanim, you know, the bilti v'tsuyim and things like that. And it was a very clear, uh, expression of, of how the inyan of Simcha will, will, will take away any of the, of the inyanim bilti v'tsuyim. Now, it was at that farbrengen that everyone knows about this. I mean, there was, there was a farbrengen that, uh, the Rashak came over to the Rebbe and, and, uh, and, and it w-- you know, uh, there was that week was supposed to be the week that, uh, both the Rebbe, that the Rebbe was supposed to say Edas. There was gonna be a de-- there was gonna be a deposition. Um, and he was also. And he was w-whatever. There was-- Whatever it was, the Rebbe responded to him.

1:01:45 Speaker 7 He didn't wanna, he didn't wanna do it.

1:01:47 Speaker 1 Y-y-yeah. And the Rebbe responded to him in a very, uh, passionate way. And it was, uh, both in the Rebbe's facial expression and the Rebbe's hands, the Rebbe was talking how this is a molacham. I didn't hear the Rebbe's words. I, I was far, I was too far. But the Rebbe was, was saying, The Rebbe The Rabbeim. And i-i-in a way, it was to see that, to see the Rebbe saying that to him, et cetera, it was very painful, very difficult to watch. You s- realized how serious it was. And the Rebbe finished, the Rebbe went right there with the Rashi. Um, it's very interesting that for some reason, look, there was a lot of people who, uh, you think now, saying after Yud Beis Tammuz, after Zev Tammuz, after all these things, of course, everyone is already, uh- Bored ... is, um, understands the seriousness. Whatever it is, for some reason, your people, I think it was like a natural thing that, you know, it's not our inyan, it belongs, it's, it's, it's private. And there was a number of things that were holding. Whatever the reason is, I can't explain, but I didn't understand it at the time, for sure. And, um, but for some reason, after that farbrengen, you remember the thousands of people by farbrengen or whatever the number is. People heard the Rebbe was speaking loud. And- Heard ... it wasn't only the Rebbe speaking loud. It was, it was, it was, it was terrible. The- just seeing the Rebbe's

1:03:11 Speaker 1 face and the Rebbe's talking, it was something that was... you didn't see. It was, it was in public. You remember the, the, the whole farbrengen's there. And it was very painful. And after that, I remember, I remember from friends and all, I'll tell you, from other people, from older people, all of a sudden everyone realized, okay, this is, this is something different. This is serious. This is something that chassidim have to care about. You know, it wa- I don't know. It was, it was like a, a shift. It was a shift in by a lot of people. At least that was my interpretation. And I've, I've heard over the years, I think that that's, that's, you know, that's accurate. Um, it was one of those moments that was, that was a big shift in the understanding that we have to pay attention. There's something, you know, serious happening. Remember, this is Yud Kislev. It was, uh, 10 days later was, uh, start of the court, you know. It was, it was getting very close. Um, so that was, that was-- So then we, the, you know, the bochurim, Yud, by night, we were dancing a whole night. A whole night we were dancing. It wasn't a big group. Not a chance. It was a small group of, of bochurim, but we say... I was the younger one, but there was older bochur from Seven Sevenity, and we're dancing in the place where the elevator is, where the, you know, the place where the Rebbe gives

1:04:25 Speaker 1 dollars, you know. And, and we're dancing a whole night, and that's where the famous, uh, Nigun was created at that time. "Didan Noつach." Yeah. That, uh, we were singing the Nigun. What happened was there was, uh, this is probably well known that, uh, by the Knessah Shuchah, which is not long before that, there was Zusha Poizner. He was the, the, he was probably then the, the skahan Uh- The oldest, and they picked him up, I think, on his shoulders, and he screamed, "Didan Noつach." That was the, because of the case and everything else. And, uh, so somehow the bochurim found out about it and, and somehow middle of the night, someone put the words, we were singing the Nigun, and someone put the words to the Nigun and evidently get danced. There was also some other psukim that we had Neguna, that there was Neguna made then, but that's for another time. Those, tho- Those didn't stay in the system. No. There were some people that, that, that had their own, their own Neguna. But Didan Noつach, that was something that, that, uh, that, that, that stayed. So that was... Remember, this is Yud Kislev by night, okay? We all know that at this point, the Rebbe is go- needs to say, to give testimony, and everyone understood that that's, it's terrible. Like, it can't happen. We were kind of sure in our mind that somehow it's not gonna happen, but we didn't, you know, it was serious. And,

1:05:51 Speaker 1 um, and then I remember there, there was, there was the signs on the wall of calling everyone to say Tehillim for, uh, Yud Gimmel Kislev in the morning, seven o'clock in the morning. Uh, happens to be there was, it was signed, I think, by the Mashpiyim. There was, um, then in those days, there was, like, uh, there was three Mashpiyim. One of them was my grandfather, Shalom Uh, Rabbi Shie Korf. And, uh, they signed the th- And the heading was, if I remember correctly, it was like, Es Sar Eliyahu Again, speaking from as a bochur, you know, a sign on the wall, Es Sar. It's not like today where everything is, you know, a dime a dozen and, and WhatsApps and whatever. It's, uh, things in Seven Sevenity, if something was on the wall, it was, it was, it was, it was serious, you know? And you're looking at it and it's like Es, Es Sar Eliyahu were coming together to daven and to... There were people that were fasting. Uh, the Rebbe later discounted the idea of fasting, but there were people. And we got up, it was seven o'clock in the morning and mit, mit gezukt Tehillim. I think it was the whole Tehillim at that time, if I'm not mistaken. But the whole Tehillim. You imagine whole Seven Sevenity is davening. And at that rate, it was a lot of Anash, a lot of others. Imagine everyone coming together to say Tehillim, a whole Tehillim. For what? Because today, the Rebbe may,

1:07:13 Speaker 1 may have to give testimony, and, and that's a degrading thing and an agmas nefesh, et cetera, et cetera. So that was seven o'clock. I don't remember how long Tehillim took, but I remember I, I wanted to be there when the Rebbe came to assembly because we're waiting to see what's gonna happen, you know, what, uh... And this is, you know, vivid in my mind. I was, I was standing, like, uh, by the, by the door of i- within i- in the, in the area of the elevator, but, like, by the door to the hallway, and I was inside. Uh, I was in, I was inside the room, and we were looking out the front door waiting for the Rebbe to arrive. Uh, Mishtame was ten o'clock. I think it was ten o'clock in the morning. That's when the Rebbe used to come then, you know. And, uh, Baslow for me, that was one of the most precious times to, to see the Rebbe. It was, I don't know, it was, it was something when the Rebbe used to come, the car arrived, the Rebbe used to walk out. It was, it was a very malthistic and, you know, s- in the morning the Rebbe was coming to seventy, the Rebbe would walk in. It was just-- I, I used to love coming there, you know, to see, you know, the Rebbe coming. But this was obviously different. We were very concerned. We were very tensed up, you know. It was... And when the Rebbe came,

1:08:33 Speaker 1 and I don't think this, this was not usual at all. I don't know, I don't know if it was usual to sing. I don't remember right now, but, but I remember vividly that we were singing, the, the, the Olam was singing Utzu Eitzav Sofar. And Utzu Eitzav, you know, the Olam was singing together, and the Rebbe was coming in and like, like in a way, I was hoping, you know, like somehow, you know the Rebbe came in. I remember the Rebbe came in, and it was very serious. The Rebbe walked in and walked into the room, but like, like I remember the feeling then was like, "It's not good." You know, like, "It's not here yet." You know, it's not... Like the w-- you know, right now it's not. That's, a-a-again, that was the feeling of a young bachag. You know, it is, it's not like, uh... And the, the-

1:09:22 Speaker 7 You might, you might offend some, uh, bachagim, calling them young, uh, ninety.

1:09:26 Speaker 1 It's the same thing when you're older. It doesn't mean anything anyway. But, um, but you know, you were there, and you, y-you're waiting for the Rebbe to come, and the, the Olam singing to Eitzav. And they were singing to Eitzav, Sigvet Natfilo, Bakasha. And, and it was like, you know, begging the Aibishter that, that this should be taken care of. Rebbe went into the room, and, um, the next thing that I remember is when the news came out that all of a sudden that, that the Rebbe is not, the Rebbe doesn't have to say testimony. Um, over the years, I heard different things that it wasn't even at that time, and it was this way and that way. Till today, I don't know a hundred percent what happened. I can just tell you that at that time, the Olam was dancing. They say it was before even that actually happened. Whatever it was, but motketanst on the Olam. You know, it was like that was the first taste of a nitzachon. It was... There wa-- Y-you were concerned the whole time with the whole inyan, what was going on. This was like an acute issue that was like right now. And all of a sudden, it looked like it was gonna happen.

1:10:37 Speaker 7 Gone.

1:10:37 Speaker 1 And it-- So

1:11:12 Speaker 7 You might have pointed, whatever, yeah.

1:14:13 Speaker 1 To what?

1:14:14 Speaker 7 It's like the-

1:14:14 Speaker 1 To s-pointed? Yeah.

1:14:15 Speaker 7 Yeah. Uh, we don't know if it's true, but say-

1:14:19 Speaker 1 I don't know.

1:14:20 Speaker 7 So different is

1:14:20 Speaker 1 Let's leave that aside. But it was, it was, it was all in the very end that they wished the Rebbe mazel tov for Yud Dalet Kislev 'cause you have Gimel Kislev by night. That's Yud Dalet Kislev. And I'll tell you, I was... When the Rebbe came out in the library to come back to 770, I was standing, um, on, you know, on the front steps. Not on the steps, you know, you have the whole platform that goes from one step to the next step i-by 770. So it takes a while for the Rebbe to come. So we were able to stand there, and then when the Rebbe will come, we'll-- before the Rebbe comes, we'll, we'll move away. I remember I was standing like in the middle, literally in middle of-

1:14:58 Speaker 7 The big steps

1:14:58 Speaker 1 ...of the big steps, you know, like right there, facing, facing the library and watching the Rebbe come. And the Rebbe was, uh, the Rebbe was coming. I believe the Rebbe was in a winter coat, if I'm not mistaken. And the Rebbe was walking from the library all the way to 770. And it was such a ‹masah›, such a sight. The Rebbe's walking with such a, like... The Rebbe looked so relaxed, and it, it was beautiful. It was like, you know, the, the Rebbe was walking to 770, and in middle I s-I remember how the Rebbe looked up to 770, like there was, you know, looked up at the whole building, but with such a relaxed look. Very different than what I saw the Rebbe, you know, on a regular basis. And that image, it was such a special moment to see and know that the Rebbe didn't have to give testimony, and there's a moment of ‹nachas ruach›, and it just felt like it was a ‹uvgeleigte zir›. Um, to the point that, where that, that moment was with me for, for years. Like that, just that moment, just walking by and looking at us. And we knew that, that the Baruch Hashem, it's ‹yeud cheshvan›, and you know, the whole everything together. Um, anyways, that night there was a ‹fabrengen› 770 and, uh, Rabbi Shemtov, Rav Remmiel Shemtov and Rabbi Krinsky were sitting together. It was a very unusual sight. It's, it's interesting. It was in a small ‹zal›. It was, uh, full of

1:16:33 Speaker 1 ‹bachrim› that were standing like a, you know, like bleachers, whatever. But it was a small ‹zal›. You think of it, how the, how many ‹bacha› could it have been? You know. Today's days it's like, you know. But, uh, that was still considered a big ‹fabrengen›. It was a big ‹fabrengen›, yeah. And the Rebbe, a-a-and, and everyone was just, it's ‹yeud cheshvan›, it's ‹yeud gimel cheshvan›, and the Elul was, uh... And to see Rav Remmiel and Yudel, who we knew were in the thick of things, and they were involved, and to see them ‹fabreng› and to see them talk about it, it was, it was just an incredible ‹uvgehebene› time, you know, for, for that night. And the ‹chaverim› said, "《L'chaim》." So it ‹gangen a gantse nacht›. Um, Rabbi brought ‹fabreng› for a little bit of the night, but, but, but it's ‹gangen a fabrengen a gantse nacht yeud gimel cheshvan› night. The next night, uh, there was, uh, I remember I was a ‹bacha in al teytele›. There was a whole night in, in, in Al Teytele there was a ‹fabrengen›, you know. But, uh... So, so that was, that was ‹yeud cheshvan›. So this is all days away of the actual court case.

1:17:37 Speaker 8 Before the court case. Yeah.

1:17:38 Speaker 1 And that's what's strange. You know, I w-like, you know, it's, it's interesting how you knew you didn't know everything, you know. So like, I don't know, I don't know if we understood exactly when everything is starting, when everything, you know. But ‹poyle›, it came the day of the case.

1:17:52 Speaker 8 Many of our listeners are aware of the magazine. We talk about the Among ‹Chassidim› by ‹Der Her›. ‹Der Her›, as was known for many years, is a magazine. So, so many people subscribed to it, but I've encountered many people that are listening to the podcast. Number one, there are some people that know about the magazine but don't subscribe. And I've met people that have been listening to the podcast that don't even know about the magazine, whether they're not exposed to it or they know about it, but you know, they ne-never actually interacted with it. So I wanna bring to everyone's attention the ‹Chassidishe Der Her› magazine. This is the way ‹Der Her› began. Beautiful monthly magazine. Comes out every single month. And over the years, so many people have told me different pieces of feedback, and I think the best piece of feedback that I've gotten in one word is that after you read the ‹Der Her› magazine, you are uplifted. We're talking about every single month, you're gonna be living with the Rebbe. You'll have a, a diary, a section called ‹leb mit dem rebbe› about something that happened a certain period by the Rebbe. You'll have a ‹vart›, a ‹sicha›, ‹der malchus›. You'll have answers from the Rebbe, the ‹meinus› of the Rebbe. And you'll also have feature articles that give you... Well, it's usually on a topic. It could be historical, it could be something, a deep dive into one particular topic, and it could be something about the Rebbe. It could

1:19:21 Speaker 8 be something about a previous Rebbe. It could be something about Chabad history, uh, very recently. It could be from something in the past, from many years ago, hundreds of years ago even. And what it really does is, you know, people learn, people ‹daven›, people learn ‹Chassidus›. But ‹Chassidus Der Her› really takes your free time. Shabbos afternoon on the couch, ‹bein hasdarim› for a ‹bacha›r or some other type of thing like that, and you can really get inspired and be u-uplifted. There's so much out there, especially in, in the ‹frum› world, there's so much to read. Not necessarily is everything that's available to read necessarily holy, necessarily ‹kedushadik›, necessarily uplifting. For sure not. You read this, you'll be uplifted, you'll be more connected, and you'll have a ‹Der Her›. You'll have the ‹Der Her› that we talk about. And for those who know already, it also comes with a kids' magazine. It has comics, it has stories, pictures. Beautiful, beautiful for children. And you'll subscribe today, and you'll receive it every single month. And for those who are not yet subscribed and that are listening to ‹Among Chassidim›, you can go onto derher.org, and when you subscribe, use the coupon code AMONG. So tell me about the case.

1:20:54 Speaker 1 So then came, then came the case. It's interesting because I'm told that, that, uh, the, the, the judge picked the date Was Yitzchak's live

1:21:07 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm.

1:21:08 Speaker 1 So the other side asked to change it.

1:21:11 Speaker 8 I never heard that.

1:21:12 Speaker 1 And the, and the, the judge didn't, didn't, uh, didn't agree.

1:21:16 Speaker 8 Wow!

1:21:17 Speaker 1 So it started Yitzchak's live, but I-- you need to look this up. I, I, I think that Chof Kislev was actually the day that we-- that was public. Could be the day before was more like the lawyers and, and things like that. Or maybe I was there Yitzchak's live. I, I just don't remember right now. It's Negeah because there was one thing that I remember specifically had to do with Yitzchak's live, but I'll tell you in a second. So I was there, you know, I was there, I was there in the court.

1:21:43 Speaker 8 Bachurim were in the, were in the court.

1:21:46 Speaker 1 There was a certain amount of spaces, and there's, there were certain Bachurim that went, you know. Those that, you know, there were, there were... I, you know. Yeah, I mean-

1:21:54 Speaker 8 You were there every day.

1:21:55 Speaker 1 I was there almost every day. I was there every day, but there were some times that I had to go out because to let other Bachurim in, et cetera. But I was always-- I was, I was there, I believe, every day. Um, that's a story for itself. I mean, I was, I was a regular Bachur in, in Olatita. And, uh, it wasn't, you know... I, I don't remember exactly how, how I, I-

1:22:22 Speaker 8 How you managed that

1:22:23 Speaker 1 ... how I, how I went. I- it was the only time in my three years in Olatita that I got a Knost.

1:22:28 Speaker 8 Hmm.

1:22:29 Speaker 1 One Pedek Tania, but that's all. It was only one Pedek Tania. I-- they must have decided that they're not gonna, they're not gonna make an issue because, uh, you know. So they basically, they let me do it. They, I, you know, I probably got that sense also. So, uh, I got one Pedek Tania. I was Yetzer, but other than that, I was there. Anyway, so, so yeah, we were there. Look, the Bachurim felt... There, there was buses. There was a bus that came. There were Bachurim. Yeah, there was, there was a lot of Bachurim. And, uh, there was, um... The Bachurim felt that the Rebbe-- And we heard it probably from olders also, from olders also. I mean, the Rebbe's in court. You know, this was the Rebbe's case. This was, uh, you know. And after everything we heard, after everything we knew. So we were in the-- When we were inside, it was like, it was like, it was very intense. You know, we were sitting with Tillims. You know, we were saying Tillim. Some people were talking, saying Tillim the whole time. Others were, were listening intently. I was most of the time listening intently. Um, but it was-- You, you realize that, you know, you know what's at stake here. So everything that was happening was, was, you know, very serious. Um, and of course, there was the other side, and there was the lawyers the other side. Uh, I remember one of the lawyers, other lawyer's daughter was there. And, and,

1:23:58 Speaker 1 uh, uh, my brother Yossi was talking. She was, he was a, he was a silver. He, he was a, he was a, a Yid. And, um, anyway, so it's interesting. I remember the fir-- at least when the day that I was there was either Chof Kislev or Yitzchak Kislev that Rabbi Krinsky was, I believe, the first one to give testimony. And, uh, he's sitting there up on the, on the witness stand, and he had with him like a page from The New York Times. And like he kind of, he was holding it. He kind of opened it or whatever, and our lawyer said to him, "What do you have over there?" So he's-- It was, it was a full page. I believe it probably was a picture of the Rebbe of the Farbrengen that was on cable TV for Yitzchak Kislev.

1:24:47 Speaker 8 An ad.

1:24:48 Speaker 1 An ad. So he like, he like said that this is a-

1:24:53 Speaker 8 He just happened to have it with him or he, it was, it was-

1:24:57 Speaker 1 What I believe is he wanted to speak about it, so the judge will know that the Rebbe is being watched on cable TV, and maybe he can even see the Farbrengen and et cetera, et cetera. So I, I'm not sure if this was Yitzchak Kislev, then it was about tomorrow night is a Farbrengen. In other words, or tonight. Uh, if it was the next day, then it was just showing of the, of, of, of the, you know, to-- He should get a sense of he's dealing with the Rebbe. He's dealing with-- He's not dealing with, you know, just anybody, you know. So to-- It helped you imagine a full-page ad in New York Times for a Farbrengen that he's gonna speak on cable TV around the country. So it was very-- I remember that. So he opens it up, he says what it is, and our lawyer says to him, "Okay, that's not relevant." It obviously was planned. You know, he, he knew he made up with the lawyer before, but this was the, this was the opening, you know. Like to basically tell the judge-- It was a chance to tell the judge that, that, that Anyway, so it's interesting. I remember the fir-- at least when the day that I was there was either Chof Kislev or Yitzchak Kislev that Rabbi Krinsky was, I believe, the first one to give testimony. And, uh, he's sitting there up on the, on the witness stand, and he had with him like a page from The

1:26:09 Speaker 1 New York Times. And like he kind of, he was holding it. He kind of opened it or whatever, and our lawyer said to him, "What do you have over there?" So he's-- It was, it was a full page. I believe it probably was a picture of the Rebbe of the Farbrengen that was on cable TV for Yitzchak Kislev.

1:26:17 Speaker 8 An ad.

1:26:17 Speaker 1 An ad. So he like, he like said that this is a-

1:26:19 Speaker 8 He just happened to have it with him or he, it was, it was-

1:26:19 Speaker 1 What I believe is he wanted to speak about it, so the judge will know that the Rebbe is being watched on cable TV, and maybe he can even see the Farbrengen and et cetera, et cetera. So I, I'm not sure if this was Yitzchak Kislev, then it was about tomorrow night is a Farbrengen. In other words, or tonight. Uh, if it was the next day, then it was just showing of the, of, of, of the, you know, to-- He should get a sense of he's dealing with the Rebbe. He's dealing with-- He's not dealing with, you know, just anybody, you know. So to-- It helped you imagine a full-page ad in New York Times for a Farbrengen that he's gonna speak on cable TV around the country. So it was very-- I remember that. So he opens it up, he says what it is, and our lawyer says to him, "Okay, that's not relevant." It obviously was planned. You know, he, he knew he made up with the lawyer before, but this was the, this was the opening, you know. Like to basically tell the judge-- It was a chance to tell the judge that, that, that The, the, and, and the Rebbe, the Rebbe wrote that someone that could say that on a, on a nasi out there in a very strong language, and the, the, the judge accepted that. That's one of the things that-

1:27:20 Speaker 8 That's like the whole basis of the-

1:27:21 Speaker 1 That, that-

1:27:21 Speaker 8 Of the verdict.

1:27:22 Speaker 1 I don't know if it's-

1:27:22 Speaker 8 A lot of it.

1:27:23 Speaker 1 I don't know if it's the basis, but it's... Well, the letter of, of, of, of to Marx, where the Fried, where the Friediker writes that this is a treasure of the people, yeah, that is the basis. So the idea-- And they were bringing a lot of testimony to try to say why you're allowed to, uh, you're allowed to lie, and they were literally quoting Mishnah, arguing in the Mishnah, partially like learning a Gemara. Uh, these were things that Nat Lewin was amazing. I mean, he was the, the attorney. Uh, you know, he was our attorney. Of course, this is the first, the first time I'm seeing such a kind of thing, you know. But the way he used to cross-examine these witnesses, he used to run back and forth, ask a question, run back to his table, come back, you know. It was, it was a drama. It was a... We were s- we were scared, you know. But he was, he was doing his job. He was brilliant, just very in, you know, ripping these pe- reap, ripping, literally ripping these people apart. Um, and there was a number of days like that where we saw how it's going well. There were some times that there was concern.

1:28:24 Speaker 8 'Cause our side also-

1:28:25 Speaker 1 They don't know.

1:28:26 Speaker 8 Our side also had the, the witnesses.

1:28:28 Speaker 1 Correct. Correct. Um, so there was one issue that there was, there was, uh... I'm just sharing now off the top of my head a few things, but there was, there was an issue of, of the lying was, was an issue. There was the issue of maimed because they wanted to say that the, that, uh, you know, obviously, the Friediker Rabbe paid for these, for these svartem from poor people's money, and, and so our lawyers, uh, would, would, would the Friediker Rabbe do that and use it for his own enrichment, you know? And they wanted to say that when you give maimed to the Rebbe, it becomes the Rebbe's money, and that's his personal money, and that's why Elie Wiesel came and then spoke and spoke about our Rebbe and what the Rebbe wa- is and, and how that wouldn't be possible, et cetera. There was different witnesses that came in on both-

1:29:11 Speaker 8 He, he was, he was a witness for our side.

1:29:13 Speaker 1 For our side.

1:29:13 Speaker 8 Elie Wiesel.

1:29:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. He was a very... You know, Elie Wiesel comes. You imagine he was a prominent person, so it's not only what he says, it's also the impression that he comes and he's talking about the Rebbe, he's talking about Lubavitch, talking about answering these questions. So it was a very valuable thing, lchuda, to have someone like Elie Wiesel there. Um, you had Rabbi Levin, uh, the librarian. He was, you know, he had all the information. You see, on the table in the courtroom, there was a stack of Igris Kodesh, literally on the table right there, and they would go back sometimes and, and look at different svartem because it was the letters of the Friediker Rabbe's letters that had different points or different things that were negaya to the case. Um-

1:29:56 Speaker 8 The Rebbe, the whole thing that the Rebbe, before this whole story came in with the volume of Igris to Fablingen, the same volume that had the letter to Dr. Marx.

1:30:08 Speaker 1 Before the whole-

1:30:09 Speaker 8 Yeah.

1:30:09 Speaker 1 The whole case. Yeah.

1:30:10 Speaker 8 Yeah.

1:30:10 Speaker 1 I think, yeah, I saw that. I saw Chaim Shaul talks about that.

1:30:13 Speaker 8 Yeah, they explained the whole, uh, letter in there. A different-

1:30:15 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:30:16 Speaker 8 A different letter.

1:30:18 Speaker 1 So, so you had Rabbi Levin, you had Rabbi Krinsky, you had, uh, Zalman Posner, alav ha-shalom. You had, uh, oh, say there was Dr. Shiloh, which was on, from, you know, from the other side. Uh, Friedman, which was a senah Lubavitch. But every time our lawyers were able to find these, like even silly things like-

1:30:38 Speaker 8 That piece I saw. I saw the transcript of that.

1:30:40 Speaker 1 Really?

1:30:41 Speaker 8 Just like a little chelek.

1:30:42 Speaker 1 Okay.

1:30:43 Speaker 8 I think, I, I remember it was Nat Lewin, one of the cross-examinations, they're asking, "What's your expertise here? Do you ever read a book on Lubavitch?" "No." "Do you ever like..." Ba- basically like he established that he has no expertise in this area, and now, okay, now, now let's hear-

1:30:56 Speaker 1 Also, also they used to always ask them how much money they're making for coming 'cause they were paid.

1:31:01 Speaker 8 Right.

1:31:01 Speaker 1 They were paid to come, and nice money, so that would also be always part of it. You know, these are all things that were going on. Of course, there were some times there was mamash drama. You know, you have Chaim Lieberman. It was terrible. Pashut, they showed how he's always lying, how he's-

1:31:18 Speaker 8 That, that Nat Lewin speaks about in interviews.

1:31:20 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:31:20 Speaker 8 As I, I, I saw something, he's talking about his career and the, and he says his, one of, one of his best cross-examination experiences was, uh, was, was, was with that.

1:31:30 Speaker 1 It was, it was like you couldn't believe what you're seeing, you know, that, that, that this is actually happening, and he burnt, he burnt, uh, documents and things. Whatever it was, it was... You know, it might sound like it was all, everyone was there, it was, it was all secure, that it's all good. You looked at the judge, and I'm sure you heard this from others, um, he, he was poker face. He was act-- Uh, you didn't see on his face what he's thinking. He was just sitting there and listening. He didn't show any emotion, um, you know, throughout, throughout the case. And-

1:32:06 Speaker 8 Can I ask you a question?

1:32:07 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:32:07 Speaker 8 What, um, 'cause I heard conflicting hagashim from various people that were bachurim at the time.

1:32:12 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:32:13 Speaker 8 In your mind, it was clear that there's gonna be didan atzach, or in your mind, that's part of the, the horror that you don't, that you don't know for sure?

1:32:22 Speaker 1 You know, it's hard to explain. I think it was a dover butter that there was gonna be didan atzach, but we were still very concerned. You know, you have to... How does that, you know, how does that come together, you know? I, I don't know. You know, I can't tell you. I, there was definitely a strong emunah that there'll be an atzach, but, you know, we we were still afraid. How, you know, it could be the emunah was a, was a makeftike emunah. Whatever it was, I, I don't know. I didn't think about that, but it was, it was, it was... I know, I know throughout the whole case we were... It was very difficult.

1:33:04 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm.

1:33:04 Speaker 1 You know, when I, when I sat through a day- You were-- I, I remember you were sitting, you were looking at the judge, you were looking at what's happening, and it went on, I don't know how many hours, six hours, eight hours. I don't know how long the days of court was, but it was long. It was hours and hours and, and you didn't realize how tense you are because you're worried about every word and everything going on. And I remember when I, when I used to leave, I push it, I would have a splitting headache. Like, just y-you realize afterwards how, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're focused on, on, on o- on, you know, on, on one person for so long, and you're so intense about it, you know. I used to come out, I used to push it. I have a, a splitting headache from it. Whoever you, you'll speak to Bachram and whoever was there, I mean, you, you, you... Imagine we knew at that time, literally, we knew while we're in court, the Rebbe's by the aisle. It was, it was totally unusual. You know, today we hear the Rebbe going to the aisle. The Rebbe went every day. It wasn't once a month. It wasn't twice a month. And we knew the Rebbe was going to the aisle, and we knew the Rebbe was fasting and standing on his feet the whole day by the... You know, going to the aisle. Even, even in other words, fasting starts already

1:34:28 Speaker 1 in the morning, and the Rebbe is, is, is, is by the aisle. And we-- There were days that we were back when the Rebbe came back from the aisle. I don't remember now exactly when and what, but I remember being there and the Rebbe-- and seeing the Rebbe come. And you, you saw, you saw the, the, you know, the, the... You know, you knew first of all the Rebbe wasn't feeling good previously in the summer, and you felt like this could affect the Rebbe's goshmis, that the Rebbe's gesund could be affected. So you imagine one day, a second day, a third day. So you're sitting in court, you know the Rebbe is now going to the aisle for this. I mean, you know, what does a Hasid feel? Any-anybody, you don't have to be a big Hasid to, to, to, to feel that, you know. So it wasn't like, "Oh, we're sitting in the court," and we're like... It was, it was a very intense experience, very intense experience. Um, um-

1:35:28 Speaker 8 There's also Alter Chassidim-

1:35:30 Speaker 1 There were some Alter Chassidim, yeah. There were some Alter Chassidim.

1:35:33 Speaker 8 Shluchim also that came.

1:35:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. My father was there every day. I mean, he was here in New York the whole time. He came, he was there the whole time. Um, but there were others, you know. There was, uh... It wasn't a lot. The, the courtroom wasn't so big, you know, but there were, there were. Um, you know, I remember like Rabag, there was a Rov. Uh, he came and spoke, uh, because they were asking questions, diff-different Halacha questions. But I remember one part that the, how the judge, I think it was right in the beginning, I remember it, how the judge said that the purpose of this case, what we have to figure out is what was the intent of the Friediker Rebbe before the stalkers. We, you know, that, that, that's what we have to get to. And many times it came up, so someone said: "What is this relevant?" He's like: "It's relevant because the Friediker Rebbe was a Yid from Halacha, and because a Yid from Halacha, that's the way he would act."

1:36:33 Speaker 8 I always wondered that because I know in other situations, courts don't like to deal with-

1:36:38 Speaker 1 Right

1:36:38 Speaker 8 ... you know, with a court-

1:36:38 Speaker 1 They were, they were, they were going-

1:36:39 Speaker 8 ... religious matters.

1:36:39 Speaker 1 Correct. They were going through Jewish law because th-the judge understood, he accepted that the mindset of the Friediker Rebbe would be to act in Jewish law, and therefore, we have to understand what is in Jewish law to be able to-

1:36:51 Speaker 8 Right.

1:36:52 Speaker 1 That's why it was literally a day about this lying and a Mishnah and one Mishnah, second Mishnah, and, and Pushah arguing like, you know... And, and in general, the whole case was like that. There was a lot of Inyanim of Torah that was part of the, uh, part of the case. Um, I'm just trying to think right now. I di- I didn't really think about those details in a long time. Um, but there was many, many, many stages in, in the court. There was, of course, um, uh, Rav Zalman Gourary spoke. There was, there was, there was many-

1:37:23 Speaker 8 Ten, seven.

1:37:24 Speaker 1 There was, there was many... Huh? He was Zalman Gourary was, what I remember at least, he, he basically was-- They were trying-- They probably were trying to get something from him.

1:37:34 Speaker 8 Where? He, he did-

1:37:36 Speaker 1 He was-

1:37:36 Speaker 8 The closet?

1:37:36 Speaker 1 I think, yeah. I think he was on testimony.

1:37:37 Speaker 8 The translator?

1:37:39 Speaker 1 Could be.

1:37:40 Speaker 8 Okay.

1:37:40 Speaker 1 I don't remember right now. But his whole goal was that they sh- they basically sh-shouldn't get through to him. They shouldn't. So he was literally doing them a cup back. Every question they asked, like he would ask five questions on their question. It was, it was a very interesting testimony. I don't know if we have to go into this more, but it was, it was, it was a whole, a whole list of, of, of, of, of, of witnesses and, and so on. And, um, there was at one point, this is a famous thing when, when, when they were complaining about the, the Bachrim or the, the people that are here in the courtroom, and the judge said, the judge said, "To me..." Again, I don't remember exactly the language, but he said to me that they're acting, uh, in an admirable way, like everyone's quiet and everyone's this. Like, if I cared, he was-- he wanted an open courtroom and, and people should be able to come, et cetera. So that was, you know, that was most of the case. Um, of course, it came the day that the, that they had the, the Rebbetsin's testimony.

1:38:44 Speaker 8 Played.

1:38:45 Speaker 1 Yeah. So this I remember vividly, you know. Um, uh, they brought this little machine. In those days, they... It was, it was similar like to what we used to have at home, like a monitor where you have a VHS that goes in and it's like a small screen. Whatever, like a, a smaller machine, a video machine, basically. And it was like on one of the tables or it, it was like on a high thing. It was like, it was, it was maybe like it was one of the count... I, I'm not sure. It was somewhere they placed it for the judge to be able to look at it. Um, and, and, and they, they started playing a certain part that they want to present to the, to the, to the judge. And I didn't see. I don't know now if it was like in a way that I couldn't see it or if I felt like I, I shouldn't be looking. I don't remember right now, but I know that I didn't see the Rebbetsin, you know, talking. Um, but they-- It was quiet, and they played, and this is the way I remember it, okay. I, I... There's different, uh, versions, and one day maybe, maybe it's even in the transcript or whatever it is. But, um, of course, we were all very heightened and, and, and, and paying attention and, and, um, and they pl- they, they, they played something, and right away the other side said, "Objection, Your Honor." And I don't

1:40:03 Speaker 1 remember the reason for the objection. Like, you know, it's like now that I think of it, it's like the Rebbetsin, of course, I'm gonna say it now, but everyone knows, you know, the Rebbetsin said that they asked the Rebbetsin the question of, uh, uh, "In your opinion, who did the Sfarim belong to?" And the Rebbetsin answered that, "My father and the Sfarim belong to the Chassidim." You know, the, the Sfarim... I'm not saying the exact lo-lashon, but the, the, the point of it is that the Sfarim belong to the Chassidim because my father belonged to the Chassidim. In other words, the, the Friediker Rebbe's life is, is all, all, all the Chassidim. That's what it is. So of course, you know, so they played it. So I mean, you can imagine it's not exactly in, in American jurisprudence. Uh, you have, uh, a concept like this, that a person belongs to the, to the Chassidim or whatever it is. But they s- you know, "Objection, Your Honor." And the way I remember it, the judge said, "Objection sustained," which means he accepted the objection. But interesting, very interesting. I remember he was shaking his head, and it was like... That, that's the way I remember it. I don't remember some people said, "Wow."

1:41:10 Speaker 9 I heard, I heard re-remarkable.

1:41:12 Speaker 1 Remarkable. It c- it's not a stid. It could be that there was another word. It could be I, uh... The way I remember it is, uh, but that objection, and he said, "Sustained." Like he, he accepted kiilu that legally it doesn't have a place, which is-

1:41:26 Speaker 9 But-

1:41:26 Speaker 1 Which if that's true, again, I, one day we'll find out from the transcript. Maybe I I got it wrong. But, but interesting, very interesting. That's the way I remember. He was like shaking his head. And the truth is that was, that was a time when we saw an expression of the judge. I mean, later now we hear the, uh, there's a story with his daughter that said that, uh, that there was this remarkable... That, that there's actually a story which I don't know if it's true, that, that his daughter said that he spoke about the case and that it was going a certain direction and till this remarkable until, until this remarkable woman said, you know, what she said. So that was, um-

1:42:18 Speaker 9 Then we have the, the Rebbe said that, uh, that-

1:42:21 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

1:42:22 Speaker 9 That, that, that had a big hashpa'ah.

1:42:23 Speaker 1 Right. So that-

1:42:24 Speaker 9 That was that-

1:42:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. That was after the-

1:42:25 Speaker 9 Had been cut

1:42:26 Speaker 1 ... Rebbetsin's hishtalkus that, uh, the Rebbe said that, that, uh, the Rebbe said that that's what, that's what made the case. That's, that, you know, that was... Which that deserves a whole, whole separate conversation. What does that mean and why? And, um, if we'll have, if we'll have time. Um-

1:42:48 Speaker 9 So this starts with this kid's teething. It goes for what? Two, three weeks.

1:42:51 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, uh, it was I think three weeks, I think it was. I, I don't remember the days exactly when it started, when it finished. Um, so that was, uh, some, one of my memories of, of which, which leads us into the something that's important to talk about is, um, I was... It was, uh, it was Hanukkah. And, um, actually, I think the Rebbetsin's testimony was what they showed also was Hanukkah. It was on Hanukkah. I don't remember the days exactly, but there was on Hanukkah, in the middle of Hanukkah, excuse me, was, was, uh, was a rally. And the way we used to work was, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there were rallies for kids, and there were rallies sometimes that there was for zkenim and for, for the, for the zkenim lev Yitzchak, for the, for the, for the senior citizens. They would have a rally, the- a rally. They would have a... The Rebbe would come and speak to them. And that particular rally was a combination of the children and the zkenim. Now, it could be later that became more normal, but I think at that time it was like a chidush. Um, and it was the same day. It was, it was while, while there was a court, the Rebbe was having a rally in seven seventy. So I remember as a bachur, I was like torn. You know, on one hand, I, I wanna be there. I wanna be in court,

1:44:12 Speaker 1 the Rebbe, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And but the Rebbe's talking. How could a bachur not be by the Rebbe? So this was going on in my own mind, you know. And, uh, so I, I remember I was sitting in court, and I was like looking at the time of what, you know, what it's gonna take to get to seven seventy, and I waited, and then I dashed out. I remember running down the steps, going down to the subway , getting on the subway. I arrived right before the sicha in seven seventy, in front of seven seventy. Um, but it was already a time when usually you try to get in and you do different things, but there was, uh, there was a speaker outside. I don't know if it was always that way, but there was a speaker outside, and right, I was standing on the steps. I think I was standing on the steps of seven seventy. I was listening outside, which was strange, obviously. I wouldn't normally, you know, agree to that, but that's what, that's what happened. I arrived, and I came on time for the, for the sicha. And the reason I, I say this is 'cause this is... This was like, you know, this was like really the beginning of the Rebbe, you know, starting to reveal, you know, more directly about the case. I mean, most of it will be zeis Hanukkah, the end of Hanukkah, but, but at least the, the way it felt like the

1:45:22 Speaker 1 Rebbe, the Rebbe, the Rebbe was talking about the, the, the, the kids and the seniors and it was beautiful, beautiful sicha. But then the Rebbe, the Rebbe spoke that, that it's also negia to all the people around the world. And the Rebbe started speaking about, uh, creating and expanding the work of Tzemach Hashem of the children, of the zkenim, of the seniors, which is the first zkenim lev Yitzchak, and everything in between, which is a Beis Chabad. Basically, a Beis Chabad is, is, is all ages and, and, and that's where Beis Chabad is. And the Rebbe then basically was talking how they have to-- we have to start increasing and making, uh, you know, Beis Chabad everywhere. And the Rebbe said that there's gonna be a hishtalfus. The Rebbe's gonna participate in- In the, these, the, in this expansion, in this work from the Rebbe, the Rebbe would be giving, you know, certain, uh, certain financial help, which was, of course, a chidush. And, and then the Rebbe also in that, in that sicha spoke about, uh, spoke about that, that, that, uh, that there has to be simcha, that there has that, oh, that, that, that, uh, I wanna be careful here exactly what happened there in the next day. But the Rebbe spoke about simcha and about that there should be fabrengenishen, um, uh, throughout Hanukkah and that, uh, and, and, and, and the Rebbe concluded with saying that they should have a number of nigunim that they should sing. And then the

1:46:49 Speaker 1 Rebbe said they should sing the nigun of Urfratza, which is Peiretz Kol HaKdorim. And the Rebbe said clearly in that, in that sicha about the, take away the chayshech, take away the challenges. Again, I don't remember exactly, but it was clearly al- uh, alluding to what's happening and they have to overcome that with, with simcha and with, and with this work and so on. And, um, and then they sang Urfratza, and it was, the Rebbe was clapping and, and, and, and being m- you know, encouraging the simcha. I know that someone mentioned to me, and I, I went to the video. You could, you could go to the video, you'll see. You look pashet at the Rebbe, at the Rebbe clapping then Urfratza. It-- y-you almost could see on the video the Rebbe's right now, it's a milchamah, and this is on the tchan on the milchamah. You know, it's like, it wasn't like just a happy simcha and the Rebbe's clapping. It was like a intensity. Again, I'm I'm not giving pirush. I, at least I shouldn't give pirushim on, on, on, on the Rebbe. I, I don't, uh, whatever. I don't think it's right. But akaba, I heard this from someone and I, and I connected with it even, even then in terms of, of, you know, what was happening at the time. Um, so that was, that was the, the, the rally. Uh, so that was like a very clear thing where the Rebbe's talking about batei Chabad and making new batei

1:48:15 Speaker 1 Chabad and doing all that connected with the challenges and the problems and, and et cetera. That was like, uh, on some level that was there in, in the rally, you know. Then came Shabbos Hanukkah. And Shabbos Hanukkah, the Rebbe then, um, uh, the, the point that I just wanna, wanna mention is the Rebbe said then that, that there has to be simcha, and there therefore there should be hisvadyus of simcha. Remember, uh, Shabbos Hanukkah was, zois Hanukkah was Motzaei Shabbos. Sunday was zois Hanukkah. So you're talking it's a day before end of Hanukkah. But the Rebbe is speaking how we have to make that the Hanukkah should be, uh, both the Rebbe was talking about the trick fabrengenishen, there should be simcha and, and all, a-and, uh, to do the work. And the Rebbe mentioned about what he spoke at the rally, you know, of, of, of, of, of tefillas Kenaim and, and Etz HaHashem. Um, and akaponim on Shabbos, the Rebbe said that, that therefore he's gonna make a fabrengen on Motzaei Shabbos, which was unusual. Now, there was an, there was an announced fabrengen from the Mashpiyim in 770. There was gonna be a fabrengen on Motzaei Shabbos, and it could be w- because of some- of the Rebbe saying that there should be fabrengens. And so the Rebbe said, like, I know there's a fable. Surely they won't, they won't mind. They won't be makpid. And therefore they should make their fabrengen on Sunday morning. They should make the fabrengen. And the

1:49:52 Speaker 1 Rebbe spoke that there needs to be fabrengenishen, there needs to be simcha, and there needs to be working on, on, you know, on, on, on, on, on, on, on these yomim. So, so that's, that was the Shabbos fabrengen. No, right after Shabbos, uh, Motzaei Shabbos is, is, is zois Hanukkah. Zois Hanukkah, I would say that fabrengen was probably the most. If someone wants to understand-

1:50:15 Speaker 10 What I tevis.

1:50:16 Speaker 1 I tevis is that was like the time when the Rebbe, when the Rebbe shared, um, uh, you know, the Rebbe right away acknowledged that this is, this, this, uh, or maybe that was Sunday night, uh, that it's ain't any ragel. But akaba the Rebbe spoke about, the Rebbe spoke in a very clear way that the Rebbe said that they're coming and saying that, that Chaba- the Lubavitch is not poel. They're not active. And the Rebbe spoke about active and efetz yayados, efetz mayones, et cetera. And you would think the Rebbe, the Rebbe says, "How could you say such a thing? Of course, it has ein lo, it has no basis." And from the Alter Rebbe, from after the, from Yud Tes Kislev, there's efetz mayones, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and so on and so forth. How could you even say that? So the Rebbe, the Rebbe said that, so you would-- they're saying s- they're saying something completely not, not true. And the Rebbe brought an example by the Alter Rebbe, that the Alter Rebbe, they were making a claim on the Alter Rebbe that, that he's looking, uh, when they arrested him, they were looking that he wants a inyan of malchut. He wants kingship, to be a king of Israel or that he wants the, it's a rebellion kind of thing. Because the doctor said that he saw in the Alter Rebbe a yearning for something that he will nev- never be able to achieve or something like that.

1:51:45 Speaker 1 And, uh, the Rebbe said, of course, what they thought was not true, but it, there was something of an emis in it that the Alter Rebbe's inyan of take, uh, the yearning for mal-- uh, the inyan of malchus, and I'm forgetting now what exactly the vart was, but that, that there was some truth that, that, that, that he just didn't understand it. The doctor didn't understand it, and therefore thought that there's something else. But there's s- there, there's something there So the Rebbe's saying the same thing here, that if there's a ta'inah on you, even if it's totally, you know, incorrect, so what does it mean to you? What do you, what do you, what do you-- what does it mean for you? So the Rebbe said that the Rebbe brought a story of the, of the Gemara, that the story of Naktimim ben Gurion. That Naktimim ben Gurion was an incredible baal tzedakah. He gave more tzedakah than most people, but he didn't do as much as he could. And then it, the Gemara says of tzaros that he had with his daughter, terrible things the Rebbe said, like, aleinu, like there was, there was, there was, there was, there was a tragedy, there was difficulties. And the Rebbe said, "So what you s- so what is, what does the Gemara say? That g- that, uh, that, um, if he, he didn't do it k'deboiy lemevid. He didn't do it the way he could have done or the way he should have done. And,

1:53:07 Speaker 1 uh, and, and therefore k'deboiy lemevid l'ovad that, that therefore that's what happened." So the Rebbe said the same thing here, that takkah, it's not true, and there was a deios and if flies done and afatz mayones and everything else. But it seems like that we have kochas for more, and therefore it seems like that, uh, it wasn't, uh, k'deboiy lemevid.

1:53:30 Speaker 9 Lemevid.

1:53:31 Speaker 1 And, and it wasn't as much as it could be, and we have more kochas, and therefore what's the answer? The answer is that we have to do more. And therefore the Rebbe said, therefore... So the Rebbe's right now explaining about the ta'inah against bringing in the story of the Alter Rebbe, which of course, you know, it was, uh... And, and later the Rebbe's gonna talk about the kitr of the Alter Rebbe in that same farbrengen. And, and therefore, what is the answer? And the Rebbe said, and therefore there should be an, an-- One of the things the Rebbe said was that any place that me'eizeh sibbe sheinin meshunin, where for some strange reason there's no Beis Chabad, there should be a Beis Chabad. It's bachal interesting because it's like you're talking about taf shin mem vav.

1:54:15 Speaker 9 Right.

1:54:15 Speaker 1 I mean, you look today, you'll see how many batei Chabad there were. I mean, there were so many places didn't have batei Chabad. But the Rebbe is like saying, you know, me'eizeh sibbe sheinin meshunin that there's not a Beis Chabad, there has to be a Beis Chabad over there. So that was like a whole new language, you know? And therefore it should, it, it there should be, you know, batei Chabad in every place, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and it came out that like that's the ta'inah, and the answer is to be able to, you know, to be able to do that. And there is another nekuda the Rebbe said was that the Rashbam says mitzvah lefarsem et semitzvah. It's a mitzvah to publicize people that do a mitzvah. And even though there's reasons people don't want to, but, uh, because others will learn from it and they'll, it'll bring them to do also. So therefore, the Rebbe says, the Rebbe brought us the story of Reuven, uh, Ben Yehakav that he, that, uh, that it says that if he knew that it would be written about him in the Torah, he would, he would, he would have taken care of things differently. Uh, a big tzadik, how could you say, how, how could you say that? But still we say that. And therefore the Rebbe says, the Rebbe wants that they should be mefarsem all over, that there should be pules of Hanukkah and, and, and all the inyanim of, of Batei Chabad and

1:55:26 Speaker 1 everything else of fa- of afatz yayyas mayones, and they should take pictures of it, and they should send in reports and pictures to the Rebbe. Everything from Yud Kislev until Yud Asara B'Tevet. And they should send in everything that took place basically in Lubavitch during that time. And you have to remember, this is zois Hanukkah by night. So the Rebbe is saying now that-- And, and, and there was actually a call, I believe, to Eretz Yisrael. Maskirus said that everyone, the shluchim only had one day more to do and make pictures the way the Rebbe wanted. The Rebbe, it was a hirah that there should be pictures. And actually-

1:56:03 Speaker 9 About the Hanukkah pulis.

1:56:04 Speaker 1 About the Hanukkah pulis. So, and the Rebbe said that they'll come back, and then so there'll be thirty days of the work of, of Lubavitch, and then thirty days later, Yud Shevat, basically they should have the book by then.

1:56:16 Speaker 9 An album.

1:56:17 Speaker 1 An album. So the Rebbe is basically saying that just like, uh, mitzvah lefarsem et semitzvah, so we're saying now that we should add in our activities, we should be mefarsem activities, and this is like an answer to this ta'inah that Lubavitch should not put.

1:56:30 Speaker 9 An activist.

1:56:31 Speaker 1 And, and that happened. Uh, everyone sent in. Uh, many shluchim went out. They had their public Menorah lighting with a sign, Chabad Lubavitch. You know, even though they maybe normally didn't have a sign, but it was, it was, it was like an answer to this.

1:56:45 Speaker 9 Seeing that's from the Rebbe, no?

1:56:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. Dude, I think it was a hirah.

1:56:48 Speaker 9 I should say Chabad Lubavitch on the-

1:56:49 Speaker 1 Yeah

1:56:49 Speaker 9 ... on the-

1:56:50 Speaker 1 I think it was a hirah, yeah. And then they, they, they printed a book, a gorgeous book with 770 on the front page with light coming out of 770. All the windows of 770 and the, and the, the, the, the, the name of the book was Let There Be Light. And what it is, this is like the first time that you had a book like that with from all over the world, every country with a, some picture to, you know. It gave somewhat of a breadth of, uh, understanding of the work of Lubavitch, even though it was officially all about Hanukkah. But actually, you go to the introduction of that book. Y- and it has, it has in front about the rally. It doesn't-- I don't know if it says about the rally, but it talks about the skanim and tefillah skanim l- and, and the Tzidkas Hashem. In other words, the whole book was literally the sicha of the Rebbe and the, the, and the Rebbe's in- instruction. That's what they made. It was a gorgeous four-color book. In those days, that was, you know, a big deal. And that was the book of, the first book that the Rebbe gave straight out of this whole court case of everything. This is was like the first step. Um, later in that farbrengen, what was the next sicha? It was all about the zois Hanukkah. A whole thing about the kitra of the Alter Rebbe and how the, the visit of the Baal Shem Tov

1:58:12 Speaker 1 to, to, and the Maggid, you know-

1:58:13 Speaker 9 Should continue

1:58:13 Speaker 1 ... to the Alter Rebbe and how we should continue. And the Rebbe was asking questions about it. I'm not gonna go into it now, but the very fact that that whole farbrengen Was about the kitrug of the Alter Rebbe, about Alter Rebbe. What was-- the whole thing was how about Alter Rebbe knowing that he can, he can-- he should expand spreading Hasidism, and together with that, uh, the Batei Chabad and making a book and everything else. It started becoming clear that the Rebbe saw this as a, as a kitrug and a taina, and he was learning from the Alter Rebbe. And now we have to just like there's before Petersburg and after Petersburg, that the Chabad Lubavitch has to go in a, in a different level. And I-I wanna tell you, I, you know, I thought about that many times, you know. You-you'll-- Later on that year and the next year, it was a whole new language about going on shlichus, where the Rebbe spoke openly that everybody has the opportunity to go, and everyone should go. It's-- that's why I'm saying it started Simchas Torah, but it was in a whole new direction. And I-I don't know, but I would imagine if someone did a study of how many Chabad houses were growth every year until the court case, and then from the court case on, it's literally far Petersburg and nach Petersburg. In other words, the, the, the, the, the, the, the whole case, the whole... And a-afterward, the Rebbe started doing, doing

1:59:49 Speaker 1 many different things in a whole new way, and the Rebbe expected that. Um, you know, I'm, I'm jumping ahead, but in, in Tafshvim Mem Zayin, which is still before Cheit Teis, before the-- it was still before the verdict. Yeah, on Simchas Torah, the Rebbe spoke a whole sicha, and it was mugger. It was, it was, uh, edited by the Rebbe. A whole sicha about starting new Batei Chabad. And the Rebbe says over there that mikanu lahava, that's a, a language. Mikanu lahava, from now and, and the future, the Rebbe used a lashon. The, the, the becoming a shliach and becoming Batei Chabad is shayach to every single one. And then the Rebbe uses a lashon, which is, is, is, uh, i-is, is, uh, very unusual. The Rebbe says, "Ubechanuni na bazois." Test me in this. You know, it's a famous thing that in Torah it says, like, staka, that, that you could test Hashem, that, that it's, that it's... The Rebbe says, "Ubechanuni na bazois." Actually, it's interesting. The Rebbe says over there that after three decades of doing it and seeing the success, that now he says, the Rebbe says, until now, ayechai, y-y-you can't talk about something that you could for sure be successful before you actually could show it. But now you could see that, that you see that it was successful, and therefore anyone that goes and tries to make a Batei Chabad, bechanuni na bazois, that it's gonna be successful and it's gonna be good, et cetera, et cetera. And

2:01:20 Speaker 1 this, this kind of language, this was a whole new, you know, level of, of, of, of, of, you know, going on shlichus, opening Batei Chabad, the expansion of shlichus. And by the way, you know, I, I wasn't all the time. By me, there's no doubt that the bachurim of that time, many guys that, uh, uh, that, that I know, friends of mine that went on shlichus, there's no question they were impacted by literally the Rebbe talking and, and, and, and speaking about this because-

2:01:47 Speaker 9 People, people, people speak about this.

2:01:49 Speaker 1 People speak about it. It became something that was so clear that this is so important and so va-- and that it's shayach to everybody. And, um, and, and, and to me, it was interesting because the fact that the Rebbe says mikanu lahava, which means the Rebbe's acknowledging that it wasn't always that way, that everyone could do it. But now the Rebbe says it's a derech sulah, it's a paved way, it's successful. And therefore, if there's any place that for some strange reason doesn't have, we have to have, we have the Chabad house. So that is very important to understand. That was part of the, of, of, of the Rebbe's, uh, you know, the response and, and, and nach Petersburg, so to speak. Um, so that was the first night, Zois Chanukah. So then, uh, the Rebbe said to make a farbrengen the next day in seven seventy.

2:02:35 Speaker 9 Mashpiyim.

2:02:35 Speaker 1 Mashpiyim. So imagine you come to the seven seventy, there's a farbrengen. I mean, I don't know if there was ever, uh, ever another farbrengen like that a whole day in seven seventy.

2:02:44 Speaker 9 During the day.

2:02:44 Speaker 1 During the day. It was, uh, very unique, you know. And the Rebbe went to the aisle that day. And I remember when the Rebbe came back, how the Rebbe was walking downstairs, and you probably heard this from others. Uh, right as the Rebbe was coming, uh, Shloime Zaritz on Zaingezunt gave a, gave a kula.

2:03:00 Speaker 9 On the video, you can see-

2:03:01 Speaker 1 Oh, you see? I never saw it.

2:03:03 Speaker 9 You can see chamamashi at the corner of the video. You can kinda see his feet, uh, and-

2:03:07 Speaker 1 Was it, was it... It was right there, like in the aisle that the Rebbe was coming from.

2:03:10 Speaker 9 Yeah, but, uh, the angle of the video, you c-- you have to notice it. You have to know that it's happening to see that it's happening in the corner because-

2:03:16 Speaker 1 I never, I never saw the videos. I don't know. Okay. Wow. He saw Shem Tov. I remember he saw Shem Tov Stanger. He was either trying to pull him away or whatever it was. To be honest, as, as a bachur, I was like, like, I felt like it was wrong. Like, how could you do that in front of the-

2:03:31 Speaker 9 Yeah. Yeah.

2:03:32 Speaker 1 What-- But-

2:03:33 Speaker 9 But it's also-

2:03:34 Speaker 1 It was-

2:03:34 Speaker 9 -appropriate to the whole mood.

2:03:36 Speaker 1 It, it, it just shows. I-- now when I think about it, it was, it was such a matzav. You imagine, you have to be, you have to, to be able to understand that you're farbrengen a whole day in simchat torah. The Rebbe farbrenged the night before, and the Rebbe was asking the mashpiyim to farbreng. So, you know, it was, it was a unique time. It was a unique time. And the Rebbe came in, and then the Rebbe was gonna make another farbrengen. So you can imagine, it's Shabbos, matzah Shabbos, then the whole day, and then Sunday night. And, and Sunday night, the Rebbe, the Rebbe, the Rebbe spoke, uh, um... The Rebbe started off, I think, that farbrengen saying that it's not ragil to, to, to have a farbrengen. And again, the Rebbe spoke about, uh... I don't have a clear recollection right now of, of, of, of what it was there, but it was a, it was a whole farbrengen. The, the main points that, that I said from the first night was more directly, uh, you know, on point. Um, I think it was more about the Alter Rebbe with the, with the, with the mashal.

2:04:35 Speaker 9 Yeah. I think-

2:04:36 Speaker 1 Yeah.

2:04:36 Speaker 9 I think if I remember correctly, the main thing about the kitrug-

2:04:39 Speaker 1 Was-

2:04:39 Speaker 9 -was the second night.

2:04:40 Speaker 1 Second night.

2:04:40 Speaker 9 I think.

2:04:41 Speaker 1 Okay. Ken zein. Ken zein.

2:04:42 Speaker 9 Check.

2:04:42 Speaker 1 Ken zein. For sure, the first night was a major part of it also. I, I... That I have no question. But anyway, um, so, so it was, it was, it was, it was meyer dik. I-I just on a personal level, I mean, th-this really, really is not negeia here, but, uh, Zois Chanukah by night, uh, so I had two friends who were going on a shlichus of the Rebbe to Jordan, to Yarden, to print the Tanya. I happened to be involved with them, and they thought may-- we, it was a-- we thought maybe we'll need a third person, so I also got a visa, and I was involved a little bit. Whatever. We were close friends. So I, you know, it was, uh, uh, Rabbi Shia Metzger and Yossi Gurelik. And they went, young bachurim to, to Jordan in those days. This is before a peace treaty and before-

2:05:30 Speaker 11 What, what was the idea to go to Jordan?

2:05:33 Speaker 1 Because the reason was to go to Jordan is because Rabbi, uh, Shia Metzger's, Rabbi Metzger's, uh, grandfather was, uh, he's the, the dreizach in high circles and with, with, with, with ambassadors and things like that. And, um... Or maybe I should say that that's maybe where... I don't know if he was involved at all in this, but, but, but R-but Rabbi Metzger himself, he used to make contacts with-

2:05:59 Speaker 11 We'll have to-

2:05:59 Speaker 1 ... the UN and with-

2:06:00 Speaker 11 We'll have to interview-

2:06:01 Speaker 1 And that he-

2:06:01 Speaker 11 We'll have to interview him separately.

2:06:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. You-- oh, you better. This is, he has a lot to tell you. A lot to tell you.

2:06:06 Speaker 11 Okay. If you're-

2:06:07 Speaker 1 Fascinating stuff

2:06:08 Speaker 11 ... listening, uh-

2:06:09 Speaker 1 Fascinating stuff

2:06:09 Speaker 11 ... schedule it.

2:06:10 Speaker 1 Yeah. Fascinating stuff. So anyway, so he went and, and he, and it came that opportunity where officially, I believe it was the King of, of Jordan that invited. They were gonna be guests of the king to come. Anywa- I don't wanna get into the whole story. It's a, it's a story for itself. But the reason I, I just brought it up is 'cause they went over to the Rebbe the first night. So they ‹Hanukkah› ‹farbrengen›. They went over 'cause the Rebbe was giving a ‹mashgiach› before they went-

2:06:34 Speaker 11 To Jordan.

2:06:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. It was interesting 'cause the next night, by the second ‹farbrengen›, there was a long ‹sicha› about the ‹matzav› in ‹Eretz Israel› and how they went then to Tunisia. ‹Geflogen› in Tunisia. The Rebbe was very, the Rebbe was very disappointed about a lot of things of how security was being dealt with in ‹Eretz Israel›. And, and the Rebbe's talking about the, the challenges and the, you know, the, the, the terrorists and the Rebbe... I remember the Rebbe used the ‹loshen›, ‹proy chayas›. It was very strong language of what you're dealing with and how dangerous it is. And the Rebbe mentioned Yarden and also as one of the countries that, you know. And I'm standing there. This is the day they left already, and I'm standing there. Here the Rebbe is talking about this dangerous Yarden, and they're, they're going into Yarden. It just was interesting the day before the Rebbe gave them ‹lechayim›, and here the Rebbe's talking about it, you know.

2:07:28 Speaker 11 So then there's, so then nothing happens basically for almost another year till Heites, right?

2:07:44 Speaker 1 Um, after the case, I mean, there were, again, there was, there was, there was a n-a number of ‹farbrengens› where there were, there was the various comments, various things, you know. But in, in at least right now, in my memory right now is, um, uh, it was, it was, uh, you know, uh, there wasn't so much activity after the case, after the court.

2:08:05 Speaker 11 Right. So you're saying there were some ‹nimuzim› throughout the, throughout the year, and it's also right before Heites. I mean, there's a, I think, I think it's with this ‹Kislev›-

2:08:14 Speaker 1 Yeah

2:08:15 Speaker 11 ... that the Rebbe would finish off the-

2:08:17 Speaker 1 The ‹Dan› ‹Notzah›.

2:08:18 Speaker 11 I-

2:08:18 Speaker 1 ‹Cheilech veChayelech›. I remember that.

2:08:20 Speaker 11 ‹Dan Notzah Cheilech veChayelech›.

2:08:22 Speaker 1 That was, again, it, it was also like to hear the Rebbe, to hear the Rebbe express such words, it was, you know, and also was, uh, created a hope that we're coming to the end of it, you know.

2:08:32 Speaker 11 It was unusual to wait so long. The-

2:08:34 Speaker 1 It was very unusual. The, the, the, the judge actually said in the c- that he's gonna take like a, he said a few months, and then it went very, you know, for all that time.

2:08:43 Speaker 11 Basically a year.

2:08:43 Speaker 1 A year. They, they say there was, at the time we knew there was like this big trial-

2:08:47 Speaker 11 That he got involved with

2:08:48 Speaker 1 ... that he got involved with. I don't know, it was a mafia trial or something. Whatever. And, um, uh, and therefore pushed off. We, we didn't quite know, at least I don't remember knowing that he's busy and we're not gonna have it. Could be some people did know, you know. I, I don't know. Also, I guess he could give out a verdict while there's a case also, you know, so.

2:09:08 Speaker 11 Right.

2:09:09 Speaker 1 Anyway, this is not my-

2:09:10 Speaker 11 So then there's Heites.

2:09:13 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I mean, actually it's interesting you mention, uh, you mention, um, before, the Shabbos before, I remember, uh, it was, uh, Parsha Yigash. Parsha Yigash ‹Taf Shin Mem Zayin›. Um, and this is actually, this is actually important. This is important. Very-- it was always very special to me. Now I, I, I think it's, it's... Anyways, it was, it came... What happened, the next year the Rebbe wanted again that there should be, uh, ‹peulos› and the Rebbe wanted another book. I don't recall right now when the ‹hagra› came, like when the Rebbe said it, but there was a ‹hagra› to make another book. And, uh, by that time, you have to remember, like the year before was the first time. It was, it was like, uh, people were already thinking of the public ‹menaire› linings and everything else, you know, in a more, in a, in a ‹breiter› way. And also they had all ‹Hanukkah›. So the next year they were told, and I don't remember right now when the Rebbe said, that they should, that again, take pictures and all that. So once again, everyone did that. So I remember it was the, it was, it was Shabbos Vayigash, uh, which you have to look it up. I don't know what day it was in terms of ‹Hanukkah›, but it was, I think it was after ‹Hanukkah›. And by the ‹farbrengen›, I used to stand right, right opposite the Rebbe. Uh, in other words, uh, not, um, not, not opposite, like there's the ‹shvil›,

2:10:44 Speaker 1 you have two, you know, the metal tables, one a little bit to the right of the Rebbe, one to a little bit to the left. So I was, um, right at the, at, right at the end of the ‹shvil› of that table, which is on the left of the Rebbe. So it was pretty much directly in front. And I remember how all of a sudden, how the Rebbe saying that, that, that Or whatever the Was, there came reports from, from the, from, uh, about the And so on. And if I remember correctly, the Rebbe said then that it was, it was at, uh, uh, it was, it was, it was about Hatzlacha or Hatzlacha Gedola. Uh, and, and, uh, and, and, and the Rebbe said, uh, "Hatzlacha And I, I could tell you, I was literally standing at the farbrengen and I push it. It was like, like, "Oh my gosh," 'cause I remember the Zois Chanukah farbrengen to not... And the Rebbe says the whole thing is that it's not And here the Rebbe's like, It was almost like, you know... Now it's interesting because years later, uh, my chaver, uh, Rabbi Sholasken from, uh, Montreal, he tells me that Friday night, that Shabbos, Friday night, I was walking with him to the In, in, in And, and on the way, I told him that I heard that from be- from behind the scenes that they're expecting, uh, that there's a, a obsak. Like, no, we got some word. And now I know that

2:12:24 Speaker 1 there's truth to it. In other words, that we-- there was, you know, known already, uh, on some level. But it's interesting 'cause again, so you asked me before about believing and still being worried. A whole year we're waiting for a response. So you hear something like that, it doesn't... And now the Rebbe's saying, That to me was like, wow, you know. And then if that wasn't enough, at the end of the farbrengen, the Rebbe says that That we should hear That was totally unusual. He didn't have that, so that was very special.

2:12:55 Speaker 11 That was the second album. Um-

2:12:57 Speaker 1 Oh.

2:12:57 Speaker 11 The first one was Let There Be Light. The second one-

2:13:00 Speaker 1 And There Was Light. And There Was Light. And it's a, actually a much thicker book.

2:13:04 Speaker 11 I hear.

2:13:05 Speaker 1 These are two books. It's, uh, it would be For people to, to look at it. I mean, this is poshet. The Rebbe's... It's like, it's like an expression of the Rebbe's And the Rebbe's work in This is like the Rebbe was-- this is part of the This is a, it's not a Book. It's not a Album. This is, the Rebbe was fighting a war, and the Rebbe, this was one of the, you know, one of the st- one of the pieces, so to speak. Um, anyway, so that was, that was the second book. That was And There Was Light. Yeah. So then, then, then of course came No, Everyone knows about Um-

2:13:46 Speaker 11 New perspective.

2:13:49 Speaker 1 You mean my experience, as you explained to me before?

2:13:51 Speaker 11 Well, your experience.

2:13:53 Speaker 1 Um, yeah. So again, these are things that, you know, is, is well known, but, um, I... Unless maybe we should talk about something else.

2:14:08 Speaker 11 Go ahead.

2:14:08 Speaker 1 Uh.

2:14:09 Speaker 11 Hey Teves.

2:14:10 Speaker 1 Hey Teves. So look, I was a, I was a This is This was already, uh, I was a I was already old, you know, uh, from the older In, in zal. And, uh, that day, Hey Teves, was a big test that, that, uh, w- it wasn't so u- uh, you know, it wasn't a usual thing, but it was like a big test on everything you learned or whatever it was, I don't remember exactly. To the point that I know we were up early-

2:14:40 Speaker 11 Preparing

2:14:41 Speaker 1 ... reviewing some stuff, and it was a written test, uh, which is interesting 'cause later with you, Beis Teves, whatever. So we, so I, I do, I sat, the zal was, you know, A big zal with a lot of And I was all the way at the other edge, uh, uh, the other end of the, of the zal, all the way at the... From when you come through the door, I had to go all the way to the corner table, The other side. I'm saying this for a reason.

2:15:06 Speaker 11 Is that a fire escape or the other side?

2:15:08 Speaker 1 I don't know about a fire escape, but it's, it's, it was on Troy. This was-

2:15:10 Speaker 11 I'm just saying there's a door over there or the other side? Okay.

2:15:15 Speaker 1 So I go bottom, I'm sitting by the table, and, um, everyone is sitting with their papers and their pens, and the Gemara's closed or whatever it was, and getting ready for the test. Somehow someone said something to me like that he heard there might be something. And right away, you know, people are like saying, "Ah," like that was nothing, like, uh, people could think that they're trying to do it 'cause of the test or whatever. And I wasn't gonna take any, any chances, and I just slowly like was slipping through all the tables and kind of getting out to the front of, of the zal. And when I came out, it's all empty. Everyone was in the zal, you know, whatever, and I just ran up the steps. And, uh, um, and I start running 770. And I was running and running and running. Mamish, it was like, you know... And I guess, I don't know if it was Union or I think it was on Union, uh, I was running towards, towards 770. And, um, it could be that someone else said something that he heard, like maybe I got a little bit of a confirmation or whatever. But, you know, I don't remember right now. And I'm running to 70, and, and i- i- it, it's so hard. And I remember as I was like, it was between, uh, probably Kingston and, and Albany, and all of a sudden I'm hearing the nigun of the There was already a tape-

2:16:40 Speaker 11 Yeah

2:16:40 Speaker 1 ... that was made, and it was, it was... People put it up on their windows on Kingston Avenue, you know. So all of a sudden, I'm hearing the sound. I'm coming, I'm running, and I'm hearing the nigun The feeling, poshet, the elation, the, the... It was like, it was mamish, you know. If someone wants to describe it, a Mashiach is here, you know. It was like, it was, it, it was like beyond anything. And I, you know, was just running to 770. And, um, and of course, we came there and there's dancing already, and, uh, it was right in the... It was in the beginning, but it was, you know, they were, they were already, there were bachurim, there were bachurim already dancing outside, and we joined them. Mot ke-tanz. A while after, um, the-- uh, we were dancing, at some point, uh, Rabbi Krinsky's car arrived. It could be it was a long time after. I mean, I don't... Right now, I'm, uh, it was, it was... First of all, after I was there for a while, slowly, more and more people are coming. And then, um, after a while, uh, the Piamentos came, and they started setting up their music. It took time, you know, as it was developing more and more.

2:17:47 Speaker 11 All the schools started coming in.

2:17:49 Speaker 1 And yeah, yeah, it took time.

2:17:50 Speaker 11 The kids.

2:17:50 Speaker 1 And then, then also people started giving out l'chaim and, you know, you know, and, and all that. Um, so, but I remember Rabbi Krinsky coming, and he was like, I think he was even holding the papers with him or And he was like, you know, walking quickly into seven seventy to... I guess he came from the court or wherever it was to get the, to get the psak. And we were dancing. And, um, I remember for myself, like, you know, uh, listen, everyone has their, their, their experience, their thing. But I remember like, I, I, you know, I said l-... I said some l'chaim, but I didn't say a lot of l'chaim. You know, I was, I was waiting to hear, you know, what's the You know, what's, like, what's happening, you know? I didn't wanna, you know, like, I, I... So, and, like, one of the special moments I remember, someone came over while we're dancing. He comes over, and he tells me, and he tells me, uh, uh, that the, it was told mincha's downstairs. And I don't know, it's hard to explain why, but it was like, that was, like, like unbelievable. Like, the Rebbe's coming downstairs? Like, in those days, the Rebbe davened mincha upstairs, uh, you know, not downstairs. So the Rebbe's coming downstairs, that means it's a Yom Tov. That means the Rebbe is recognizing it as a Yom Tov. Um, I think, I think it's important to say this 'cause it's so difficult to understand that, to, to

2:19:17 Speaker 1 see that now. But at that time, we didn't ex... You know, people talk about hitbodedut, the Rebbe looked serious or whatever. I never knew of any of that.

2:19:28 Speaker 11 It was nice, huh?

2:19:29 Speaker 1 Yeah. I, I, when I, when people say that, I, I, I don't know how to relate to it. And, and, and the reason is because, because at that time, we, we, we never expected the Rebbe to To share with us. Um, he, he, he... It was like, Chassidim have to celebrate, that the Rebbe's gonna be open and share with you. So anything the Rebbe did was, like, so out of the ordinary. Like, I'll give you example. Rosh Chodesh Kislev. For many years, Chassidim came, farbrengen, had siddurs and Rosh Chodesh Kislev. The Rebbe never said a word. Actually, it was Simchas Torah, mem vav. It could be it was mamash that year that the Rebbe spoke about or... No, it could... No, actually, I think it was, it was either Shabbos before Kislev or Yud Kislev. The Rebbe said in the farbrengen. Shabbos before Kislev. It was Shabbos before Kislev that the Rebbe said how the whole month of, of Kislev has to be farbrengen and the shin and it has to, you know. And the Rebbe s-spoke then, he started with Hanukkah, far dem Yud Kislev and Yud Kislev, and, uh, un Rosh Chodesh Kislev. That was probably the first time, um, uh, correct me if I'm wrong. But where the Rebbe said Rosh Chodesh Kislev, that was, like, a big deal. The Rebbe's ackno... Why, why was it a big deal? Because the Rebbe's acknowledging to us. He's sharing with us. The Rebbe is, like, allowing us into his simcha, and we didn't expect

2:20:54 Speaker 1 it. And when I heard that the Rebbe is coming down for mincha, that was like, wow. Like, you know, this is-- it was like a gift, you know? And, and it means the Rebbe is recognizing it, you know? So anyway, so that was, uh, once I heard that, I, I didn't wanna say more l'chaim because... And we said l'chaim, but what do you mean? If the Rebbe's coming down, there could be a sicha. They go, "Well..." Actually, I did not think there could be a sicha. But the Rebbe's coming. You can't, uh, you can't be, you have to... By bachurim, you know, Simchas Torah, no one took l'chaim when the, when the hakafos. You know? The Rebbe's there. You, you have to take l'chaim. So So mot ke-tanzed and ke-tanzed, and, and then came mincha. And of course, mincha was, uh, it was unbelievable. The Rebbe came in, the place was shturem, and l'poel we were after l'chaim. I mean, with all not taking l'chaim, we're after a lot of l'chaim. And, uh, for me personally, I was, I don't know how, you know, I, I was at, like, uh, the Rebbe's... They, they made a bimah. It could be they made it then, right then for, uh, like Tisha. I think they put it together maybe in those few hours. Is that true?

2:22:07 Speaker 11 I think so, yeah.

2:22:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. I think they made, they made a bimah. So I was like, at the end, after the bimah, there was, like, a table and then whatever. Somehow I ended up over there, and it ended up that I was basically on the Rebbe's bimah. Like, it was like, or right off the Rebbe's bimah, standing on the level of the Rebbe's bimah. But I was behind some people. I never w-would have wanted to be, you know, with my face, you know, by him, by the Rebbe. I was behind a few people, but l'poel I was, I was right there on the stage. It was given the l'chaim. And so we were there, and of course, the, the The niggen and, uh, and they started Ashrei, the whole, the whole thing. And I remember that, that when I saw that they're putting a shtender, it was like, "Wow." And that's also something I think the young generation has to know, that there was never... I don't know if there was ever before that the Rebbe spoke a sicha. Maybe the m- or maybe a tonis, but there was no-

2:23:07 Speaker 11 During the week like that, a sicha-

2:23:08 Speaker 1 A sicha meant a farbrengen. A farbrengen meant it's Yom Tov, a yom, the pagre.

2:23:12 Speaker 11 Sukkot.

2:23:13 Speaker 1 Sukkot, okay So there, there wasn't a regular basis that, that, that... Today, you know, you look, it's hard to think the chidush of the Rebbe. But at that time, it was, it was literally, again, it was like saying today is a Yom Tov. You understand that? So that was when I saw the... Then the Rebbe asked for the Chumash or something. Whatever. I remember the Rebbe was, uh... In sec- the next thing was when the Rebbe started talking. And of course, this is, the Rebbe spoke then about the Parsha Vayigash and, and, and, and about Yosef, that, that lo atem shalachte, that, that you, the brothers, didn't send me. It's the, the Ebishter. And, and, um, and, uh, and then the Rebbe started saying in very open language, the Rebbe said that, that, uh, that me'oivai tachmeni. That just like it was by the Alter Rebbe, that how do you know how to react? You know from what the ta'inah is. And here the Rebbe said the ta'inah of, of the Chabad is not put- not, not poel. And I, I, I could just tell you standing there, it was like, again, even though now that I'm talking, it's like, uh, you know, zeis Chanukah the Rebbe said it, but it didn't make a difference. It was like you were standing there and the Rebbe's now, it's hei Teves, it's just the verdict, and the Rebbe is saying, the Rebbe's talking about the Alter Rebbe, and this is like by the Alter Rebbe. And also

2:24:42 Speaker 1 the Rebbe used some loshon nes. The Rebbe said the sfekes and the bilbulin that we w- that we had. Like, to hear the Rebbe say it kilu about himself, that there was sfekes and bilbul, it was very, on one hand, very, you know, strong lashon describing that we went through a difficult time. And then saying, and therefore what has to happen, as a matter of fact, you know, the SBI suffered, and the Rebbe spoke then about, uh, you know, those nekudos.

2:25:06 Speaker 11 The Rebbe spoke a chidush of this day, the nafatzot mayanus includes teaching people Aleph Bet.

2:25:11 Speaker 1 Ach.

2:25:12 Speaker 11 The Rebbe said that.

2:25:13 Speaker 1 That, that, that, that, that, that the sidrein or the, the, the fried Kerem, in other words, that brought it, brought it to, to the thing that even in teaching Aleph Bet you see the mayanus.

2:25:22 Speaker 11 Nafatz mayanus.

2:25:22 Speaker 1 Nafatz mayanus.

2:25:23 Speaker 11 The psachos.

2:25:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. Also, I think the Rebbe spoke that I'm not sure about having a Beis Chabad, a prati in y- in your room. It could be that the Rebbe mentioned that. There's a number of the points that the Rebbe-

2:25:32 Speaker 11 So yeah, back to your point about things that the Rebbe didn't do, people learn into it. So I've been thinking about it like you, you wanna learn into what the Rebbe didn't do that day. Uh, start with learning what the Rebbe did do that day. And if you learn the sicha, if you listen and watch and-

2:25:46 Speaker 1 Yeah

2:25:47 Speaker 11 ...read the sicha, it's unbelievable.

2:25:49 Speaker 1 Yeah.

2:25:49 Speaker 11 That the Rebbe, how much the Rebbe addressed the din of atzach in the, in that sicha.

2:25:53 Speaker 1 It was, it was, it was, it was amazing. And, and, and, and I could tell you we, uh, we didn't expect it. People say what the Rebbe didn't do, it's like they didn't make with his hands. Like, like it was givurim. It was, it was the fact that the Rebbe came down-

2:26:05 Speaker 11 If the Rebbe would've, if the Rebbe would've made with his hands, the Namah would've been ex- an explosion. I don't know. Huh.

2:26:09 Speaker 1 It wasn't, it w- I- it wasn't something we expected.

2:26:12 Speaker 11 Yeah.

2:26:12 Speaker 1 You know? It was, it was like, you know, the Rebbe is allowing us to, to, to, to... That the Rebbe should share that with us. Anyway, so, uh, you know, the Rebbe spoke the sicha. It was very clear. I m- that again, that same nekuda of going out. I don't remember all the loshon nes of, of, of... It was, it was an indication of going out and, and, and, and, and, and, and being mosif in the fatza'yat. A lot of Bachurim-

2:26:35 Speaker 11 Yeah

2:26:35 Speaker 1 ...actually I didn't, but a lot of Bachurim-

2:26:37 Speaker 11 Went on the time

2:26:37 Speaker 1 ...went on the time that day.

2:26:39 Speaker 11 Yeah.

2:26:39 Speaker 1 I don't remember why I didn't, but that, that was the, the-

2:26:41 Speaker 11 I heard that from a lot of Bachurim that day.

2:26:42 Speaker 1 Yeah.

2:26:42 Speaker 11 They went on the time.

2:26:43 Speaker 1 So that was, that was, that was that. Then of course, uh, that night was, uh, was a big farbrengen. So 70 and everything else. You know, many pe- people, people ask me sometimes like, you know, "How was there this, this simcha?" Remember, the dancing went on hei Teves, vav Teves, zayin Teves, uh, Motzaei Shabbos till the morning of asara beTeves. It, it went on a Friday night. It was also. This never happened in Lubavitch. And I wanna tell you something. When we were dancing 770, there were people there, there were Bachurim from all kinds. I say all kinds, I mean the c- it, it wasn't Chanoyim and people that were davka into it a whole year.

2:27:35 Speaker 11 It wasn't a shpitz Chabad, uh-

2:27:36 Speaker 1 It wasn't shpitz Chabad. It was, it was Bachurim, a nash that came. I saw a certain people that, you know? And they were dancing. It was literally etzem hanefesh. People, people ask me, look, I mean, it went on for a week. And by the way, the Rebbe at the, at the last day, the Rebbe called the Shivas Yemei HaHechal.

2:27:58 Speaker 11 The Rebbe said a sicha every night.

2:27:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. Uh, the Rebbe said a sicha every day. It was like a Yom Tov every day. And people, look, are asking, look, how c- what brought that about? You know, what, what, what, what created that? And that's why I told the whole story until now. Because when you realize how much people lived with the Rebbe and all the challenge and, and the difficulty, and if someone lived with it, you know, it says in the Gemara, uh, am, am sa'ar baYerushalayim zecha v're'a b'simchaso or something like that. That someone has, is, uh, mourned over Yerushalayim, then he is zecha to see the simcha. On a very basic level, you could say it's, it's, it's, it's just technical. You know, if you, if you really were... You cared and you really were involved, and you really were in pain, then when it happens, you're, you have a real simcha, the deeper the simcha. I don't know if that's the, the, that's the pshat, but I'm saying that's... And that's, I think, what happened. It was a very simple thing that a nash, everybody realized that this, the, the, the bagav snufesh that the Rebbe had for so long, and we were so waiting for this, that when it happened, this wasn't like, okay, people came together and had a farbrengen and had a meal and had a part. It was... You know, I, I, I, I remember like at night, late in 770, like literally things calm down and, and it was a smaller crowd, and the

2:29:33 Speaker 1 music's still going, and I just remember like some scenes of, of... Again, we have the l'chaim and all that, but I remember like there was a scene when it was literally a major part of 770 was empty, and there was like just a few people just going around and dancing, like just without, without someone even to dance with. Just like, like there's no tomorrow, you know. It was late at night. I remember one image from... It'd be Yisroel Friedman shala. Now, anyone in my days when we knew Yisroel Friedman is our Rosh Yeshiva in Altai, like that's not who you, you would see 3:00 in the morning dancing.

2:30:08 Speaker 11 Yeah.

2:30:09 Speaker 1 Dancing. He was circling and running around, and you could see his face. He was like in heaven. There was, there was no tomorrow. That's how it felt. There was... Moshiach is here. It's like, what else do we need? But I, I'm, uh, you know, numerous people like that. It, it was a simcha b'tarasa. And, and, uh, you know, we don't know of another case like this in history when you had, when you had everyone join in. Now don't forget, as the days were going on, there were people coming in from, from around the world to join and, and, uh, different, uh, uh... People remember when, uh, Moshe Landau, the Shalom, came and he spoke. It was like a chiddush, you know, that he was, that he came. But people came to show-

2:30:56 Speaker 12 I think your father came in a limousine.

2:30:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

2:30:58 Speaker 12 Did I hear that?

2:30:59 Speaker 1 Yeah. I saw. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was wild. I mean, 'cause they came and it was on the, on the driveway of Seven seventy, and they came with a limousine with-- they came with everyone from Detroit, the whole chevra. So the limousine had a window that opens and so his-- he was sticking out outside of the car, and they were arriving. It was-- there was a feeling of elation and medavek tantzin. You know, the, the, the, the, the «» you know. It's 'cause the... I, I don't think there's th-this kind of thing of seven days of dancing. It was, it was a, it was a et for me yochid and-

2:31:35 Speaker 12 Hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since.

2:31:37 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

2:31:39 Speaker 12 Yet.

2:31:40 Speaker 1 I mean, I wanna tell you something. You know, for Bachram at that time, I can't speak for everybody. I'm saying for Bachram at that time. I don't know if in their life they're ever going to experience something like that. In other words, it was, it was... You, you could ask them. In other words, it's, it's, it was such a simcha. It was such a simcha. It was, like, such an experience that it was, it was, uh, it's a once in a lifetime thing. You know, it's, it's, it's... And Chassidim experienced it. Chassidim experienced it. And Chassidim that you w-you wouldn't, you know, dafka think, dafka they've, they felt it, but they did. And, um, and, and then of course, then came how the every step the Rebbe was taking was only encouraging it more. I mean, you know, the Rebbe, the Rebbe knew his crowd. So Vav Tavis the next night, uh, the Rebbe speaks a sicha. It wasn't downstairs, it was upstairs in, in, in the small shul, and I was not inside. It was packed. I was, I was not inside the, the thing. But the Rebbe spoke, and they brought a mic, uh, or whatever. And what did the Rebbe say? The Rebbe said that, that everyone that didn't give their names in for themself or their mother's name-

2:32:53 Speaker 12 To Esrotzin.

2:32:53 Speaker 1 They can now give it. It's Esrotzin, so it's special time. Uh, uh, auspicious, uh, uh, I'm not gonna translate it 'cause I don't know the translation. And they sh- that, that the Rebbe basically offered that everyone can bring, send in a, a note with their name and their mother's name. And the Rebbe said that he's gonna take it. There's not gonna be time 'cause there's probably gonna be a lot, the Rebbe said, or something like that. And the Rebbe went... And, and, and therefore, they should separate the money that usually goes with the, with the pan separately because it's all gonna kinda go straight in. And the Rebbe also said that because there's so much, he's not gonna have time to read them and they're-- just to put them down the way they are, and therefore-

2:33:34 Speaker 12 Oil.

2:33:34 Speaker 1 And therefore, you could write whatever you want. It's between you and the Aibishter and, and, and the Sidreinu or something like that. And, and, and you don't have to worry, kiilu, that someone's reading it. And the Rebbe said that everyone in their cities could go wherever there's a kever of a tzadik, they could go to that kever to kiilu to be, to be part of this. And this never happened. I mean, not before, not after, that the Rebbe should ever do something like this. So you can imagine for everyone, this was like, you know, it, it's like, uh, uh, you know, in the siyas, you know, the Rebbe's saying that basically inviting all Yidden to, to, to, to, to, to, you know, to send in a pan to us, it was like a, you know, it was a beginning of, of, of, uh, a, a n- a new stage, so to speak. And-

2:34:26 Speaker 12 In the Biale in his speech in the-

2:34:29 Speaker 1 Zayin Teves, yeah.

2:34:30 Speaker 12 In the Sudde Sedar, I mean, he's, he's speaking about that nekudda that the thousands of Yidden, some «» that wrote-

2:34:36 Speaker 1 Right.

2:34:36 Speaker 12 That was like... And the way he was describing it, that's, that was something special.

2:34:42 Speaker 1 Right. So the next morning, everyone was busy getting their friends, their relatives, anybody that wants to send in, they never need to write in and, you know, and even mechalt to write into the Rebbe. And there were chevra that were-- I know there were guys that went to Boro Park, were standing on the street and offering Yidden to write that it's, it's Esrotzin, it's a time that, uh, you could write to the Rebbe. And, and they... A lot, a lot came in then. I know in the Etzus Hashem had 100,000 kids or whatever, so they wrote them in, you know, auto- automatically or whatever it was. In Yudl's office, there was, there, there was a number of places there was a fax machine. So people were sending. So all day, there wasn't so many. I don't think in those days there was a lot of them, but they were-

2:35:24 Speaker 12 The fax machine.

2:35:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So they were sending, people were coming, uh, trying. It was constantly going from all over the world, coming in from Chassidim that, that, that wanted to get it in before the Rebbe goes to the veil the next day. I remember personally, I was helping out a little bit in, in, in the Rebbe Kirznik's office. At that time, Rebbe Kirznik's office was not where it is now. It was where the conference room is. It's like near the driveway. Near, near the driveway where the Rebbe, uh, oh, came in the later years, going into the Rebbe, to the back door, uh, where the car was. Um, why was the car there? Oh, this is in Mem Zayin. Okay.

2:36:03 Speaker 12 That's with the Rebbe

2:36:06 Speaker 13 The Rebbe would come down-

2:36:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

2:36:07 Speaker 13 ... from the stairs into the driveway to go to the-

2:36:09 Speaker 1 That happened, that happened with the, with after the foot.

2:36:12 Speaker 13 No, that was earlier.

2:36:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was when Valv, yeah.

2:36:14 Speaker 13 Mm-hmm.

2:36:14 Speaker 1 So, so anyway, so the Rebbe-- so I, uh, the

2:36:20 Speaker 13 You see on the, when the Rebbe's pulling out, there's like, I don't know, hundreds of people pushing to the Rebbe's car, and some guy starts knocking on the Rebbe's window. You see in the video that the Rebbe is mot-motioning to Yodel to-

2:37:33 Speaker 1 To lower the-

2:37:34 Speaker 13 To lower the window so he can-- he's stuck in his, his, his ham.

2:37:36 Speaker 1 So correct. And, and, and what happened before that, now so the car was there and they were filling it in. So I m-- I was grabbing from the, the fax machine in Yodel's office on the other side of the room, going... I was o-- I went out. There was a, a-

2:37:52 Speaker 13 Fire escape

2:37:52 Speaker 1 ... there was a fire escape. So I went on the fire escape, and I used to drop down. I was dr-- till the last minute, we were dropping down whatever came in to someone, uh, by the car, and they would put it in. And we ran back a few times, and then it was when the Rebbe was going. So it was going. So that was, you know, I was standing right there on the, on the, on, on, on the fire escape, and there were, there were Panim coming in. You know, I'm sure there came in later also, you know. But that was-- so that was obviously a very, very special time. That was-- and then the next day was-- a-and there was a Fabregen that night, Vita and Gitans and all that. And then, uh, the, the next day, uh, Thursday night, that was like the official, uh, Agur thing, and that's when they invited the lawyers and I, I think that's popular.

2:38:36 Speaker 13 And that's all on video.

2:38:37 Speaker 1 That's all on video. Okay. So yeah, I was-

2:38:38 Speaker 13 Now we have, I think we have tapes now of the other Fabregen also, but-

2:38:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah

2:38:41 Speaker 13 ... what, what's been around for a long time is the video.

2:38:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. I haven't seen most of this stuff, but, uh-

2:38:47 Speaker 13 I grew up watching this. It was on, um, it was on Ktaim.

2:38:52 Speaker 1 Ah.

2:38:52 Speaker 13 You know, that, uh, that's, that's, that was the hoodies of the Rebbe.

2:38:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, the basic thing with Lewin and-

2:38:57 Speaker 13 The oldest entries, yeah.

2:38:58 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. The speeches. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I was, uh, obviously I was there, you know, standing and watching and everything, and it was, um, the poil. I remember that night, I don't know if this is, uh, you know, like five in the morning, you know, seeing the Bial out on a bench like, you know. There were Tzimim, you know, throughout the week, you know. There was no one that was just regular, you know. Um, Akapanim then came Shabbos and, um, I mean, I, I believe Friday night there was a-- we came and danced and it was a Sudda, but I don't remember the details. And then, um, and then Shabbos was, was the Fabregen. And, um, Shabbos that was Vaici. And over here, the Rebbe spoke about, um, the Rebbe said that, that the whole meaning of a Nisoyan, the Rebbe spoke about a Nisoyan from Avram and then Nisoyan and the, the meaning of a Nisoyan is a test. It's all a test. Just the whole idea of a test is you have the i-in the word Nisoyan, you have Neis Va'arama, lifting up. So the whole purpose of the, of the test is to bring out by you to, you know, the, the addition and to be able to be lifted up. And therefore, the Rebbe said that what the only thing that's important is i-is what you have to focus on is the Neis Va'arama. So, um, I know that it was that Sikha that I know because, because of the

2:40:36 Speaker 1 way the Rebbe spoke. Um, I, I think someone printed the, the, the verdict and other things in English that gave it out. I think it was understood that the Rebbe didn't want, the Rebbe w-- you know, didn't look, look to that. I'll tell you that I know some Bachrim that got the, the, the transcripts of the court and everything else. There were some Bachrim that put it away after that and, uh, you know, forty years I didn't see a transcript.

2:40:59 Speaker 13 You know, out of the aim.

2:41:00 Speaker 1 It's not the aim. I, I don't, I can't even get it.

2:41:02 Speaker 13 I mean, it's public record, so I think-

2:41:04 Speaker 1 Okay. But-

2:41:04 Speaker 13 Somehow you could get it

2:41:05 Speaker 1 ... some of the things that I said maybe could be, uh, contradicted.

2:41:08 Speaker 13 No, people have it, but it's not, it's not like flying around as far as I know.

2:41:11 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's not. 'Cause at that time, we thought that's what the Rebbe meant. Like, like the natural thing was to have all that, and then, then it was we stayed away from like that legal details and all that. I mean, you know. Um, I will tell you, there was a book later came out and, uh, that the Rebbe was very involved in, and there was a, a whole section about the case.

2:41:31 Speaker 13 Despite all odds.

2:41:32 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it said, it said, it said a whole, the whole story and everything else. I, I, I don't think-

2:41:36 Speaker 13 The Rebbe went to the aisle with it.

2:41:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna, I was gonna share with... Yeah. Yeah. I, I-

2:41:42 Speaker 13 But that was later. That was like-

2:41:43 Speaker 1 That was later. That was the, that's y-that's next year.

2:41:46 Speaker 13 Okay.

2:41:46 Speaker 1 That's Tasham Elches or-

2:41:47 Speaker 13 During this, during the appeal.

2:41:50 Speaker 1 Yeah. So not during the appeal, after.

2:41:52 Speaker 13 After.

2:41:52 Speaker 1 After. So the, the bottom line is that, that, that, yeah, we, we, we many years didn't look at that stuff because it was kind of felt like that that was, that came out, you know, from that Vaici. But still, the Rebbe spoke about the, the whole thing. Shabbos Fabregen was, was a, was a- Was, was all about that, and then not all about that. There was, it was, it was, there was about that. And then came Motzei Shabbos, which was, uh, s- uh, the night before Asara b'Tevet. So we were dancing all night. And, um, I remember I was downstairs in, in, in, in, in, in So 70, and we were dancing in a circle or whatever, and there were chevra that were standing like, uh... I don't know, it was five o'clock, whatever it was, there was a time for the tzedakah. So there were chevra standing there with bowls of tuna. I still remember the tuna and the salad, and literally giving people, "Here, take some," you know-

2:42:46 Speaker 12 Feeding them before

2:42:47 Speaker 1 ... because people were saying l'chaim, and not everyone prepared for the tzedakah. So people, you know, "Here, take a little, take a little, take a little." Or maybe that's enough for public consumption. But, um... And, and then it came, it came the time, and of course, everything was put away and, and, uh, and, and that was it. You know, that was the-- there was no food and no drink, you know.

2:43:05 Speaker 12 Till Ma- Motzei Tzedakah.

2:43:07 Speaker 1 Till Motzei Tzedakah, yeah, of course. And then the next day, the Rebbe spoke, the Rebbe spoke by, uh, a Sicha. It's interesting. It was Asara b'Tevet, but the Rebbe still gave dollars. And by dollars, I didn't go, but, uh, one of the things, interesting things that, that I heard, and, and it's, it's, it's printed, that there was some shluchim that came in, and the Rebbe ga-- it was, there was... I, I know there's four people that I, I, I, I understand that the Rebbe said this to. It was, uh, uh, Leibo Raskin, alav ha-shalom, Gershon Mendel, alav ha-shalom, uh, um... Who did I just say? And Nachman Sudak and, and Mulazimov. And when they went by, the Rebbe asked them if they came with their wives or their family. I think with their wives. I'm not sure the lashon what the Rebbe said. And the-- I, I think they said yes, which of course is very strange. I mean, the Rebbe never asked. You know, here you have Chassidim, the Rebbe's shluchim, coming in from the other side of the world, and the Rebbe asked, "You came yourself? Or you came with, uh, your family?" You know, is, is, is this a family simcha? Is this... And, and then, uh, by the Sicha of Asara b'Tevet, the Rebbe spoke by the Sicha, and it was a fast day. But at the end of the Sicha, the Rebbe says that, uh, here's the time that there are many people that came in to, to bring, to

2:44:41 Speaker 1 bring the, to be ‹foreign language› or whatever from Tzaddik b'Tevet. And, and the Rebbe mentioned then about, I think, about the, the learning of Siddur, of the spreading of Siddurs or something like that, and that. And, and the Rebbe used the lashon ‹foreign language›. The, in other words, the traveling, the bothering of the person and the bothering of itza, the wife. So the Rebbe mentioned in the Sicha that, you know, that it wasn't just people came, but people came with their wives, which, you know, to me that really reflects what, you know, you wanna understand Hey Tevet and, you know, w- you know, what it was all about, not only for Chassidim but from the Rebbe, that the Rebbe made such a point. You know, this is family coming and appreciating a simcha. It's actually interesting because the next year, whatever, I don't go into it now, but the Rebbeson, when the Rebbeson said to the Rebbe like, uh, uh, why, why was the Rebbe so sharp about this, uh, Beis Kislev was standing outside-

2:45:56 Speaker 12 The ‹foreign language›

2:45:57 Speaker 1 ... and the lashon that I heard from the Rebbeson was to... Oh, no, I think I heard actually the Rebbe. I think I heard it from the Rebbe by the ‹foreign language›. The Rebbe said that he's saying what the timing was that they... Maybe I'm confusing, that they came to ‹foreign language› and your simcha.

2:46:10 Speaker 12 Mm.

2:46:10 Speaker 1 Something like that. Or, or I might be confusing. Anyway, scrap that. Um, so bottom line is, so in that, by that Sicha, the Rebbe said therefore he wants to thank everyone that came and, and, uh, whatever the Rebbe gave, ‹foreign language›, something in that, in that, in that, uh, range that the Rebbe said. And, um, so le-let's be clear, you know, th-this is going on almost a week. And up to that point, the Rebbe's thanking everyone for coming and all the simcha and everything else. And then came the next night, and the next night was, it was, was a different, uh, tone, you know, different, uh, posture.

2:46:54 Speaker 12 The Rebbe changed the course.

2:46:55 Speaker 1 It wasn't. It was, it was, it was, uh, uh, the Rebbe basically spoke about the thirty days, and I, and maybe that sounded a little dramatic, but I'm saying it was the next night the Rebbe spoke about that the thirty days before Yut Zvat, it was, it was already, it was already Beis Tevet, so it was less than thirty days. But it's the thirty days from Asara b'Tevet to Yut Zvat, and basically we have to prepare ourself for, for, for Yut Zvat, for the Siddur, you know. And the Rebbe said that... The, the Rebbe spoke, by the way, to shluch- to, to, to ‹foreign language›, to men, women, and bocher. The Rebbe spoke to everyone.

2:47:35 Speaker 12 The Rebbe should prepare for Yut Zvat-

2:47:36 Speaker 1 That, that there should be a preparation, and the Rebbe wanted everyone, not j- not only bocher, that they should have a Sefer Horav, and they should be tested three times, I think it was, uh, before from then till-

2:47:50 Speaker 12 Sefer Horav was something from before that-

2:47:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here the Rebbe was saying that there should be, that there should be learning, there should be ‹foreign language› and basically as a, uh, in, in this time. And then the Rebbe spoke, that was a, you know, it was, it was, it was a very special moment when the Rebbe started describing the Midrash of Didan Notsach And, and I could tell you, I mean, some people looked at it like you say, a change, like w- like I was indicating, like a change of tone. They looked at it like a negative. W- that's not the way at least some of us felt, you know. It was like, again, it was like, it was in a way like a Gila, you know.

2:48:27 Speaker 3 The Rebbe gave out beer in the Medrash and the Rebbe gave us-

2:48:28 Speaker 1 The Rebbe gave out beer in the Medrash, told the story of the Medrash, and how they banged with their things and they screamed Didan Notzach. And that's how you get rid of the, the Ruach Bish, and that's the Yetzer Hara, et cetera, et cetera. And then the Rebbe translated. The Rebbe said that you, when you're saying Didan Notzach, you mean that the, the, the, the, the Nesider Natan Notzach. I mean, even to hear that language, you know, was very special. The Rebbe was saying about Didan Notzach and the Nesider Natan Notzach and all that. And, and therefore, what it means is that, you know, to, to do all the right things. The... And then the Rebbe indicated that the, that there was some things that were done that were not, uh, you know, Kedabai and, uh, foolishness, et cetera, you know. But the, the, the point was that the Rebbe wanted everyone to, to, um, to add in learning and, and everything else as a preparation for Yutrat. And the Rebbe said that there should be three tests, and the test should be sent to the Rebbe. At least that was for the Bacham for sure. I don't recall right now. And the Rebbe said that if he gets the te- if, if, if a name is not on the test or if a certain there isn't a mark on the test or whatever it is, it will mean that they didn't do it. You know, the Rebbe was saying clearly, "I wanna know what's

2:49:52 Speaker 1 happening with each one of you and, and, and, you know, and I'm gonna know about it, and I, and I wanna be, and I wanna be aware." I mean, you could imagine what a Bachar hears that, that, that the Rebbe's saying, the Chanit Yutrat, this is coming after Didan Notzach with all this happening, and now the Rebbe's saying that the thirty days has to be, you know, this, and you're gonna send it into the Rebbe, and the Rebbe will know about it. Every Bachar is like, "Oh my," like, this is-- we have to go and do this. Like, it's not a question of Chaf. Um, so that night we, we for the first time in seven days went, I went to my bed in the, the dorm on Troy and Montgomery, and we went to gang shlofen. And, um, that week, you lay down for a few hours, you know, you got some sleep. You, you didn't, you didn't have a regular, regular night's sleep in the seven days.

2:50:50 Speaker 3 Eh.

2:50:51 Speaker 1 Um, so I remember going to, waking up in the morning, seven o'clock, uh, our veker, Yoni Shur, was banging on my door. I remember he banged the door, and I literally, I wake up and my body was pashel like a block. I couldn't move. I was, you know, I guess when you don't sleep a bunch of nights and then you sleep, and you said lchaim and everything else, I was-- I literally, I couldn't move my body. And he's banging. And you give a gahap and you realize what's going on. You got up, you ran to zal. And the next thirty days in everything, in learning Chassidus, in Nigla, in, in, in, in, in keeping Seder, I mean, we wouldn't miss a minute. Literally, seven thirty on the minute we were there. Every Seder, everything. It was like, how could you not? The Rebbe, you felt like the Rebbe's, you know, the Rebbe might get a report on that, you know, like... So it was, it was a month of learning, of Seder like no other in terms of its time and its, and its, you know. And, and Bacham was sitting and, you know, there's, there's even, you know, older Bacham of seventy. We were the, you know, already younger Bacham, but the older Bacham of seventy, there was wall to wall, there was learning. So there was a biggest Eirus of, of, you know, from that time all the way to Yutrat. Um, so that's, uh, that's Yutrat Toshem Mem Zion.

2:52:23 Speaker 3 I've been talking a lot over the, uh, many episodes about the book that the herd came out with, Our Days. And Our Days is a very special book because it really helps you to live with all of the Yamim Tovim. So we're just coming off the heels of Tishrei, which is the month, which is Meruba Bemayadei, so many Yamim Tovim. Calms down Achashverosh, but we know that BeChasidim, Kislev is again the month. That's Meruba Bemayadei. So you have Rishchedes Kislev, the Rebbe recovering from the heart attack. And then we have Tes Kislev, Yud Kislev of the Mitler Rebbe. We have Edad Kislev, the wedding of the Rebbe and the Rebbetzin. We have Yut Tes Kislev, Chaf Kislev. I mean, there's so... It's, it's a month, and I'm missing a few, but that's-- it's a month that's full, full with Yamim Tovim. So I wanna encourage everybody to set Our Days, beautiful two-volume set. If you haven't yet purchased it, many thousands of people have already, but if you have not yet purchased it, it's a very good time to purchase Our Days. It's a beautiful, beautiful set. If you open up to the month of Kislev, I mean, here's your Chesed Kislev, just stunning. A- and each, you know, each Yamim of the Pagra, first of all, it gives you the whole story of the Yamim Tov. And then it tells you what happened by the Rebbe on that particular Yamim Tov. And then in addition, each Yamim Tov has a section called the Takeaways,

2:53:45 Speaker 3 the Skadre Min HaAsah, like how do we actualize? What does the Rebbe explain what the day means? And what should, what should we do with it? What should we do on that day? What are we trying to accomplish on that day? And many people have told me that this has become like a, a staple. They take it out, they read it before the Yamim Tov, or they do it with their family. And I really, really think that if you have not yet purchased it, you can get this two-volume set at theherd.or, .org/ourdays and write-- and if you order it now, you'll get it in time for Kislev, for the Chesed HaChagim, the month of full with Chassidus Yamim Tovim, Yamim of the Pagra, which is why we made this set in the first place to help people live with that. So order it today. So after this Tkufa and Yutrat and everything, so then there was an appeal. Is that... Maybe tell me about that.

2:54:42 Speaker 1 It's interesting. I, I, I don't, like, remember when I heard that there was an appeal.

2:54:49 Speaker 3 Did you guys know that it's possible?

2:54:51 Speaker 1 I, I, I don't think we under-- I think it took some time. I, I wasn't like... I, I, I don't, I, I don't recall, and I, I-- it could be I didn't know right away, like, you know. Um-

2:55:03 Speaker 3 Like is it-

2:55:04 Speaker 1 But what, what, what, what's, what's right now what comes to my mind in terms of, of, of, you know, of, of dealing with the appeal, um, was it was, it was, uh, Parshas Vayakhel-Pekudei, um, which I think was Shabbos Vor Chodesh Nisan. And this is a fabrengen that, uh, I mean, I, I, im yirtze Hashem will never forget. Um, it was, it was very painful, but it, it was, you know, it was something that, uh, affected, you know, uh, affected us deeply. Um, the Rebbe, the Rebbe s- the Rebbe was talking then about-- the Rebbe started talking about the appeal. And I'm not gonna go davka in order right now of the-- i-in the fabrengen of exactly when it, when it was. But the Rebbe st-- the way I remember it, 'cause there, there aren't really hanachos from it. There, there is, there is, like, one hanacha, but it's not in a clear way. Um, the Rebbe started talking about that... R-remember, the Rebbe spoke about Didan Natchah earlier and the whole, uh, m- uh, metaphor from the me-- uh, the s- the story from the Midrash. And, and the Rebbe... And, and what happens is they saw Adamah Al Gabay Mayah. They saw the blood on the water, which meant that that was the end of the life of the Ruach Bish, of the, of the negative force, um, if I am saying it correctly. And, and here, the Rebbe started off saying that, that there was a, there wa-- that there was... Although,

2:56:52 Speaker 1 I don't remember the lashon exactly, but although we may have gotten rid of it, but there's a roshem, uh, Harodah Al Gabay Mayah, um, and that there's a, that there's still a roshem of that, of that left. Still something left over. Yeah. And the Rebbe started, and the Re-- and the Rebbe spoke about... A-and the Rebbe, and the Rebbe started speaking, and basically that, uh, about the appeal. And the Rebbe spoke with, with, with a terrible, terrible agmas nefesh. I mean, I was, I was, uh, I wasn't there Parshas Pinchas, uh- In the beginning ... you know, in the beginning. But I w-- I heard Yo'etz Tamoz, and I heard, you know, Tes Vov Tamuz. To me, there was, there was nothing like this, the pain in which the Rebbe was talking. The Rebbe, the Rebbe focused on one point, and the Rebbe said that, that, that there are those that think that you could ta-- make, make tantsen of beis has bas, that you could dance on, on two weddings. You could dance on both sides, basically, the, the Rebbe said. The Rebbe started telling this story of Eliyahu HaNavi Har HaCarmel and how Eliyahu HaNavi Har HaCarmel, he turned, that there were, that the Yidden were dancing on both sides, and then he t- he... And then to, he turned to them and says, "If, if it's, if it's But- "Ad mosai atah beis moshtas efim im laba'ul v'chu laba'ul." I-i-if you're going to the baal, go to the baal. If you're... You

2:58:19 Speaker 1 know, if not, uh, you can't be... The Rebbe said, "Oder da, oder dort," or something like that. Uh, you know. And the Rebbe said that there, there are people that are dancing on, uh, on the-- that wanna dance on both sides, uh, of beis has bas. And the, and then the Rebbe screamed, "Ze nisht ki chasana, sa lavayah. Mi-midil tantsen af levayah for Rebbe noshrver." And the Rebbe was, was saying that by, by taking the Sfarim is like taking a piece of the, of the Friediker Rebbe, and this is making another levayah of the Friediker Rebbe. And he said it with such, with such pain. And, um, and at one point, the Rebbe was, like, translating from what happened with Eliyahu HaNavi, and the Rebbe said, "If you'll gain geit gezunterheit." But if you wanna do what's right, you know- What's the Rebbe referring to about the basiaf hasasefim? It, it seems like that there were... I don't, I don't know details, but it seemed like there was some people, maybe some influential people or whatever, that thought that you could- At this point ... the, the, that, that it's, it seems like that at this point, that, that you could still, you know, i-i-- in other words, they, they weren't... I, I don't wanna dis-- I don't wanna explain. I, I don't know. I, I can't give you more than that. But it seemed like that there were Chassidim. It sounded like it wasn't talking about outsiders. He was talking about, about Chassidim that

2:59:54 Speaker 1 didn't understand and appreciate the seriousness of it and understand that this is not a, this is not... The Rebbe said, "It's not a chasana, it's a levayah." It's not a, you know... It, it, it's something serious. It's something, you know... However, I'll, I'll leave it for others to, to, to explain it. But that, again, we were standing there. It was obviously very, very strong, very painful. We saw this, this, the idea that there was an appeal and all that was, was a terrible agmas nefesh. And, um, and then the Rebbe said then or before then, the Rebbe said that, that, um, that, um, this is a inyan that b- that is from the Rebbe Dishver. It's not really my inyan. It's a inyan that, that belongs to, to, to, to the Re- to the Rebbe Dishver, to the, to the Friediker Rebbe. And b'meila, it goes over to the shluchim. B'meila, it's negea to the shluchim. And the Rebbe u- said a lashon like, you know, that, that, that, um, s-s'geit ibur to the shluchim, mekites ibur to the shluchim, and they should come berev am ha'aretz melach to come and decide what, what to do and how to do or something like that. And it's interesting because the Rebbe then went on to say what to do essentially. And it was, it was to do Torah and tefillah and tzedakah. And the Rebbe spoke about one of the inyan the Rebbe said was about the idea of fasting. But, but, uh, I believe in

3:01:22 Speaker 1 that it could be in that sicha the Rebbe said. The Rebbe said a number of times that the Alter Rebbe said in our generation, it's not a thing to fast. And the Rebbe said that there should be tzedakah on the amount of a meal, which that's the way you do something when you want instead of fasting. So it was like you realize it was like a sara. The Rebbe's basically saying that it deserves a tanis, and the Rebbe's saying that there should be a, a, a tzedakah, and there should be tehilim, and there should be tefillah, you know, Torah, tefillah, tzedakah. And, and, uh, and again, the Rebbe said that, that, that it, it, it, that this, you know, that they should give it over to the shluchim. The shluchim weren't there. They should give it over to the shluchim and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, that they should come together and decide what to do. Now, this was, you know, on every level, this was, you know, this was, uh, you know, a major, you know, sigh in the, in the pain that the Rebbe was talking about. And then, and then this whole thing mit amaleh shluchim. Like, until then, you know, you had the meistes of the, the Rebbe, Agudas Yisroel Chabad. It was just heiteves. There was, you know... Why all of a sudden the shluchim? And it was interesting because the lashon the Rebbe used, I-- this struck me. When the Rebbe spoke in the summer, in the beginning

3:02:37 Speaker 1 of the whole thing, the Rebbe spoke very strong about it, that it's, that it's an inyan that's from the, from the Rebbe de Shver. And the Rebbe said, "Im bemeheleh it's negeah to every Chassid in, in the world." That it's negeah to everyone because it's, it-- because the Rebbe's zazak. And narvaz, you need someone, the gashmius. So bemeheleh there's a, a vad Agudas Yisroel Chaba- Agudas Yisroel Chabad, whatever. Here, the Rebbe like was saying the same idea that it's an inyan from the Rebbe de Shver and the Rebbe's saying, "Im bemeheleh it's negeah to the shluchim and neged sibah to the shluchim." So all of a sudden, there's like this new, you know, idea. The shluchim weren't there, you know. To give it over to the shluchim that now this is something they have to deal with and, and, and, and, and, and act on. So then that, uh, that night, I think there was a conference call for shluchim around the country. Again, there wasn't so many, you know, you know, in those days. But there was the, the shluchim, the shluchim rashim. They weren't called shluchim rashim, but, uh, you know, in, in, in, in like I think there were thirty shluchim that were or, or there's many shluchim on a, on a call. And there were, there was a shliach that was saying, "We have to come in. We have to go." And the Rebbe, the Rebbe's calling on the shluchim. The Rebbe's asking for we have to come together, and we

3:03:53 Speaker 1 have to, we have to come there and, and hineni, you know, what, what we're gonna do. And the truth is there was, there was some questions about that. Uh, there was questions even from Rabbi Chadowkov about, about, uh, coming in. It wasn't so simple. And you could say maybe the shluchim at that point were acting a little bit like, you know, when bachurim have to, you know. They, many shluchim decided, "We're coming in. We're coming in." The Rebbe, the Rebbe says to give it over to the shluchim. You have to come in. So there were about thirty shluchim that came in to New York, and they had a, they had a meeting. And at that meeting, there was, uh, you know, they spoke about the subject. And again, there was, uh, there was reason, there was reason to be worried, like, is this gonna be acceptable? Because there were certain people that said it's not. And you knew all of this? Not everything at that time. Some of what I'm saying now I knew at that time, some that I heard later. And but I mean, my father was there and, you know, so... And they, they came, they had a meeting, and at that meeting, uh, you know, there was a, a shliach got up, and he said, and he said, uh, that in, in-- that just like when the Alter Rebbe and tough and when Alter Rebbe was, was in, taken in prison, they made a vad. Uh, it's written in the, in

3:05:23 Speaker 1 the, in the, in the zichronus that, that they made a vad, and the vad de-decided that, you know, they were looking for a vad that, that decided that they're putting everything else aside, that they have nothing else, and they're focused totally on this until the inyan gets solved. That's what it's written. Said same thing we have to do here. We have to make a vad and be ready to put everything away to be able to be there for the Rebbe. And, uh, my understanding was they asked, you know, who's able to do that? Who, you know, who, who can do that? Then there were six shluchim that, that, that, that volunteered, and those six shluchim became, became a vad. Vad Hashluchim. And, um- I think the Rebbe called it Igud Hashluchim. That was later. Yeah. That was later. Uh, they themselves at a certain point expanded it so that it could-- the Rebbe wanted shluchim a vad, so they invited five other shluchim from around the world that became part of, part of it. There was, there was Yitzchak Groner from Australia, there was Chapsi Alperin, there was Nachum Sudak, there was, uh, Sammy Greisman. There was a, a group of shluchim, uh, Rabbi Mendel Lipskier from South Africa, and this became a, a, a vad hashluchim. But, but go-- that's jumping ahead. Uh, they were there. They weren't sure what's happening. And, and the Rebbe, I, I think it was when the Rebbe went home. No, I don't remember exactly how it happened, but

3:06:48 Speaker 1 the Rebbe gave, uh, Rabbi Krinsky, he said, "Mistamim the shluchim ujfa brengin." And the Rebbe gave mashke to give to the shluchim. In the middle of the week. And that was all of a sudden they realized not only it's not epes hakavana, but the Rebbe is, is, uh, you know, is clearly, clearly giving a gvir zman ka. And they got other herois. The Rebbe then s- now some of what I'm saying now is, uh, we have to double-check certain pratam of it, but the Rebbe said, the Rebbe then gave hera, I think it was Rabbi Krinsky, that they should learn, uh, the maimer of, of Reishis Goei Mamalik, which is the maimer, the first maimer of the, of the Neseus of the, of, of the Friediker Rebbe. Now remember, this was the Shabbos, I think that Shabbos was the Shabbos before Beis Nissan also. And the Rebbe, Shabbos Vayikra, the Rebbe spoke a whole sicha about how every cheifetz and every sefer from a, from a Rebbe is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is the life and so on. There was many important points over there and the nitziyus of it. And so, so here the Rebbe was saying that the, you know, to learn the, the maimer of the Neseus of the, of, of the Friediker Rebbe. And that was given to the shluchim. That was one thing. The shluchim talked amongst themselves and they, they gave, they wr- they gave hatsah to the Rebbe or wrote in to the Rebbe

3:08:17 Speaker 1 that they would like... And the Rebbe said to print it. And they gave hatsah, uh, to the Rebbe, the way I understand it, was they gave hatsah that they want to print a kuntres with two mamarim. The maimer of Reishis Goei Mamalik from the Friediker Rebbe and Bas Elagani from the Rebbe. Yud Aleph. And, and the Rebbe Yud Aleph. And the Rebbe agreed, and it came out. A kuntres ca- was printed. It came out. In those days, you didn't just print what you want. You had to have the Rebbe agree to the pesal davora and everything. And the, uh, a pr- a kuntres came out with, uh, kuntres Beis mamarim. And it was these two mamarim, the mamarim of the Neseus, so the Friediker Rebbe and the Rebbe. That was obviously a big deal. Um, and then the Rebbe also gave other... There was, there was, there was, there was an other herois. What's interesting was, to me, is they were like ruchnistiker herois. You know, it was, it was, it was- Meaning the Rebbe- At that point, it was the, you know, to learn the maimer, to, to, to abteruk in the maimer. The Rebbe already had, uh, I'm saying there was already people dealing with the court and these type of things, and this was, this was a different- I know. I'm not, I'm not saying you'll see. I'll, I'll tell you in a minute. Uh, no, the Rebbe wanted them to, to be involved. But I- I'm just saying there was-- it,

3:09:33 Speaker 1 it's interesting that, you know, they... So anyway, they came on the mefbracht and they, they started, uh, you know. So they gave me an example, okay? Uh, the Rebbe said the inyan of the Svarim that it, it goes over to the shluchim like this, you know. So they-- One thing that I do know is that there was a, a letter from the Zvad to Hagodosev Chabad. And that letter, um, you know, one of the members of, uh, of, of the Vav was, uh, Rav Shalom Der, uh, Berel Levitan from Seattle. And, uh, so I know he's signed on that letter and writing to Hagodosev Chabad that we would like to, uh, s- you know, set up a meeting with, with, um, uh, that, that, uh... Or rather, let me, let me, let me say it differently. I saw a letter from Rabbi Shemtov and Rabbi Krinsky to the Rebbe writing that they received a letter from Vad Didan Notsach Taartzes HaBris. So there was this-- They, they gave themself a name at that moment. You know? You saw this recently? Yeah. There was, there was the Vad of Didan Notsach of Aartzes HaBris. It was like a formal thing. Mm-hmm. And they're writing to-- And they write to the Rebbe that they got a letter, and they're asking to set up a meeting with the attorneys because the Rebbe asked them to, to be involved there. And they're asking the Rebbe what to respond, which is interesting. It gives a, a window, you know. And

3:11:11 Speaker 1 the Rebbe responded. And, uh, the one, uh, point that the Rebbe responded was that, uh, I think the lawyers were out of town or something, and the response was in, in range. I'm not, I'm not quoting here or anything, that, that they should have two representatives from the Vad with the attorney, attorney or attorneys when they come back. They should have a meeting. This is with members of Hagodosev Chabad as well. And then they'll decide if they could be helpful. So they, they were trying to see wha- what could we do. And also the Rebbe wants the shluchim involved, you know, the, the, the, you know, the, the, you know, how should they be involved? Ultimately, they worked very closely with the members of Hagodosev Chabad, and there was even indications from the Rebbe- So you, you saw this original letter to them also? I, I saw the letter from Rabbi Shemtov and Rabbi Krinsky to the Rebbe. That's- And it me- it mentioned the Rabbi Levitan's name in the letter? Um, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Uh, uh, uh, Rabbi Levitan, actually, it's interesting because, uh, you know, each one-- I'm not gonna go into all the details, but Rabbi Levitan, when his father went by the Rebbe, I don't know exactly when, maybe a few weeks later, and the Rebbe was giving dollars, and the Rebbe gave him a dollar and said, uh, something to the extent of like, you know, for the zun, uh, as, as, as a charuf, a, a charuf of a

3:12:37 Speaker 1 vad or some-something like that. Um, there was, there was, there was a, there was a c- a mention from the Rebbe about him being a vad. So it was a very serious thing. This, you know, the shluchim looked at themself, you know, they're, they're soldiers. They're in their places. They're, you know, they're, they're each in their area. And all of a sudden, the Rebbe is, is asking for the shluchim t-t-to be involved. So you're saying they ended up working together with, uh- Yeah, they worked very closely with, with, with, with, with Hagodosev Chabad. And, and not only that, there was, I believe, indications from the Rebbe that there, you know, that, uh, that there should be, you know, that, that there's a close relationship. Uh, I don't wanna go into details, uh, because I didn't prepare for this. There's also a nichidis of, um- Taf Shin Mem Tes- Yeah. Well, we'll get to- Chabad. Yeah. The Rebbe mentions- Yeah ... the Moitzes and, and as they go to Chabad and they go to Shluchim, like the- Right ... Rebbe ties them in together. Right. Okay. Well, we'll get to that. So, so anyway, the, uh, you know, the, the way the Shluchim took it and the way they, they felt, there was afterwards, there were many... There was a number of different Heroyos from the Rebbe. Satlach, uh, notes from the Rebbe and, and sometimes very, uh, open and you might say sharp kind of, you know, language in terms of the Rebbe writing about

3:13:54 Speaker 1 what's happening and how and what needs to be done. Um, a number of those things were to my father. My father was the one that wrote on behalf of the Vaad to the Rebbe, uh, at least over a, a, a good period of time, and the Rebbe, you know, and the Rebbe responded. So it was, there was, there was very, uh, str- the, you know, the, and the Rebbe responds to them as a, a Vaad of the, the, the Shluchim and their Vaad. In other words, this was like now a Vaad r- of the Shluchim. And, um, the way they saw it was, the way they took it was that the Rebbe was basically... What did the Rebbe say? The Rebbe s- it was a ‹foreign language› it was a, it was a time of a real Agmas Nefesh and s- you know, uh, I guess something wasn't going well, right? There's a, there's an appeal and, and an Agmas Nefesh of it. And the Rebbe is saying that it bu- it's something they gave to the Rebbe, the Shvaim, then melee it goes over to the Shluchim. So it, to them, it felt like the Rebbe is expecting that the Shluchim have an Achrayus to step in when, when there's something from the Rebbe that needs addressing. You know, yeah, there's Moitzes that are, that everyone has to do their Inyan and their Tafkid and, and they, they continue to do that. But s- but if there's like a, a need, there's something that

3:15:16 Speaker 1 is... That's the way the, you know, the, the Vaad took their mission, so to speak. What happened later was is that, uh, I jump ahead a little bit, but the, the, uh, my father was... This is, I'm going now to a year later. So, uh, my father was in 770 and he's called to stand by the elevator outside ‹foreign language›. And the, one of the Rebbe secretaries came out from the r- from the ‹foreign language›, and he was speaking to my father. He went back into the Rebbe, came back out, went back in. It was like my father wasn't called into the Rebbe, but he was, like, repeating and it was... And that's when he was told that the Rebbe wants a book to be made on the, on the work of Lubavitch, on the work of the Shluchim. This is after the appeal? This is later. I'm- After- I'm jumping ahead now. Yeah, yeah. After the ‹foreign language›, yeah. Yeah. And basically later, the Rebbe wrote, and the Rebbe wanted it to be done very quickly, ‹foreign language› to be very fast. The Spider Lawns? No, not the Spider Lawn. Which book is it? Not the Spider Lawn. This is Lamplighters. Oh, Lamplighters. Uh-huh. And there was later, there were two books basically that the Rebbe wanted. There was one thing the Rebbe wanted or could be the Shluchim gave that Hatzalah, uh, you know, they gave a suggestion. But the Rebbe, but i- what happened was, the Rebbe wrote that, that they're Meshaker

3:16:48 Speaker 1 BaRabim, that there's, they're lying in public. And again, the same idea of what Lubavitch is doing or not doing and et cetera, et cetera. And that's why the Shluchim who know the work and know the Puahlist, the Rebbe wanted they should create something to give out, to show the work of Lubavitch. Which is interesting 'cause I was telling before about let there be light, and then there was light, which the Rebbe did himself, basically. And here, the Rebbe is a- saying he wanted a different book about the work of the Shluchim, you know, around the world. It was a, it was a request from the Rebbe. And, and the Shluchim, this group were, they were constantly involved. There were many things. There was things that they, they talk about, things that they'll never talk about, and all those things that they did to try to help out in different situations of, of what was going on. You know, some things that weren't, you couldn't have an official, you know, uh, stand on it, and then, then they were involved. And, uh, for example, this book that the Rebbe asked my father to do, um, and, and both books my father was involved. The, the Vaad was involved and, and they i- in, in Detroit, the, the main office where my father was, you know, a good f- it was like a few months that they used to work on their gala dinner once a year, and that was like, uh, what helped, uh, fund the,

3:18:05 Speaker 1 you know, the activities, et cetera. That year, push it for six months, the office was, was on hold. We had a Rabbi ‹foreign language› who was a talented, uh, you know- Writer ... writer and, you know. And they had other Shluchim involved writing chapters and sending it in. First, first they made, they had a plan 'cause the Rebbe wanted it very fast. So they planned on making something of statistics of Lubavitch 'cause, you know, they wanna make a quick thing and from the whole world. This was a time when there was, there was no information on what's happening by Shluchim around the world. There was no one in 770 that had a list of even all the Moitzes and, and, and in a, in an, in an organized way. So at that time, I was not involved in this personally, but 'cause I was then in Australia, but they, the- there was, uh, the office that, uh, one of the things the Rebbe wanted was a, a, a office for Shluchim. So this Vaad, they, they founded the Shluchim office. The Rebbe spoke about it by ‹foreign language›. The Rebbe spoke about ‹foreign language› a few months earlier about having s- a concept of this, but they, the, there was then some kind of Hirah to them. Uh, I can't tell you details. And they, now they have a Vaad of Shluchim, so they hired my brother, Gedalia. And that's when the Shluchim office started. So when this, when this was happening, they-- So now

3:19:33 Speaker 1 there was like a place, and they were calling Shluchim all over the world to send, to give them information. The name of your Moitze, how many people are there? What kind of Moitzes do you have? There was no chabad.org to look, you know. So they had to get... And they wanted everyone to send FedEx immediately the information with some, with some, with some pictures or whatever it might be, to be able to collect this information. And they were working, there were Bachurim, uh, that were working through the night, literally calling all over the world and 'cause the Rebbe was, wanted it quickly. They put together a whole report of, of what's happening around the world. And the reality is, I'm not gonna go into details, but there was a very, uh, strong answer the Rebbe w- that, that was, was not pleased with, with what was prepared. And, um, at the same time, there was an answer to one of the members of the Vaad that, uh, a very painful one that, uh, twenty-five years and no one is standing up for the Kabbalah of the Alter Rebbe. This is, this is all during the case after Rashei- This, this is actually after... Some of this is after the appeal even. You have to remember, we didn't get to that yet, but there were-- the problems didn't stop. There's another case. There was another case, and there were problems, and there were newspaper articles, and there was a... So the, the, the shluchim were now

3:20:58 Speaker 1 receiving different answers and different things, and they wanted to try to, you know, to fulfill what the Rebbe wanted. So it took up, I, I don't know exactly, but this book that was made, uh, it was, it was the, they created this book called Lamplighters. And Lamplighters had a, a description of the different things that the Rebbe, uh, you know, is doing all over the world, et cetera. And, uh, it was a very, very well-done book of describing the work of the Lubavitch. Even today, you read through it, it's, it's, it's a very special book. And, um, um, I guess maybe we should stop here, and I'll go back to, to the appeal- Yeah. -because, uh, um... So, so the Rebbe spoke this sicha of Yaakov HaKodesh about the appeal. Again, you can imagine, you know, what's going on by the bachurim. It was during that time that I, uh, I was a bachur in Shiar Dalet in, in, in, in Alef Teiman, and it's the year when you normally go on shlichas. And, um, but we knew the different places that you go to, and, uh, Australia wasn't one of them because- It's every two years. -it was every two years. Now, interestingly enough, it was Hanukkah. I was sitting with my havrusa, who was, uh, Levi Klein from, a shliach, uh, Memphis, Tennessee, and, uh, we were learning, uh, stam avov. And, uh, he tells me, it was after Hanukkah, he tells me that, that, uh, that on Hanukkah, that there were yesterday,

3:22:45 Speaker 1 there was, there was, um, Rabbi Chaim Gutnick, alav ha-shalom, and then Abishait, l'chaim tovim, Rabbi Yossel Gutnick, that they were here, and the Rebbe called them in, and they had a, a yechidus thing. I think it was gonna have a tachana. And he's telling me that, that, uh, there was a number of things that happened. The Rebbe told, uh, I think that's when the Rebbe told Yossel, "Tell me Sanefesh." Uh, the Rebbe wanted shirut Teiman from him. But what he told me at the time was that they asked the Rebbe, that Rav Chaim Gutnick, alav ha-shalom, asked the Rebbe that, that in Holland, Australia, the Rebbe always sends six shluchim, six bachurim. They would like to have twelve bachurim. And, uh, and they're asking the Rebbe if, you know, the Rebbe's the one that sends the bachurim, you know. And the Rebbe said, the Rebbe said something like, "If Dan Hol is maskim," and the Rebbe, like, picked up both hands, like, with a smile. "If Dan Hol is maskim," you know, the, the Rebbe's maskip of the Dor, I don't know the Lashon, but that was the, that was the Nekuda. And he tells me, tells me the story. It w-- I, I, I didn't-- It w-- This was, didn't think it means for right now, you know. It was a, a concept, you know. I'm saying this because it was nowhere in our mind of going to Australia, which what was Australia? Australia, the difference of Australia and, and all the other places

3:24:07 Speaker 1 was there all the other places the Rebbe you were able to come back for Tishrei and for, and for, uh, Pesach. And in Australia, it was two years. So I'm standing in Seven-seventy upstairs. I still remember I was wa- kinda walking out the front, before the front door, like in the lobby where it says now Seven-seventy on the bo- on the floor. I was kind of standing there, and all of a sudden I feel a, a tap on my shoulder, and I, like, give a turn around, and it's Rabbi Klein. Uh, I remember I, like, literally just, like, froze. I, like, my back was like, I just stood there, you know. I was kind of waiting. Here's the Rebbe's secretary. I was fri... He was friendly with me bachlal, but I, I right away thought, "Okay, this is, this could be the, the moment when I'm being told of, of a shlichut." And he says, "All right," like, "you wanna go to Australia?" And of course, I'm, I'm saying yes. And he says to me the, the, you know, the, the three things of if the, if your health is good, if you ask your parents, forgetting what the third thing was. And then he asked me to tell it to the other two boys from Alef-Teiman to give them over the shlichas. That was Yisroel Matzkin, who's the, uh, director of, uh, Camp Gan Yisroel in, in, in Montreal, and Shmuel Black, who's in, in Melbourne, Australia today. And, um, so he t- you

3:25:35 Speaker 1 know, that's what he told me. And I... Okay, you become a shliach, so there's a fabringen, and the whole class is fabringen a gan tzeh nacht. And the truth is, for me, it was, it was a shock to my system. I was-- I just never mentally prepared, like, to go away two years, not see the Rebbe for two years. It was like, when I say it was a shock to my system, it was- Of course, I was saying I'm happy and, you know, we came to Farbrengen, we said, "L'chaim," we got down and stuff at Tish, but I, I, I literally, I got sick. I, I couldn't retain anything, and my stomach just... And for-- I was literally going around like a ghost. I was, I was... It took me a few days because it's, it's something that it's, it's maybe hard to understand, but it's, you know, to think at that time, first of all, besides the fact that there was an appeal and, and with the Svarim and Bachal to just imagine not be... In those days, it wasn't with internet. It wasn't, you know. And it meant you're going away. You're not gonna be by the Rebbe two years. Like, it, it just was never something in my, in my s- in my, you know. Anyway, so it was, it was... I was doing all the steps, and I, of course, never thought for a second that I'm not happy to go, but, uh, it, it took a while. And, uh, and

3:27:08 Speaker 1 then, of course, we-we're waiting for the appeal. So, um, there was a hearing. There was a-- there was three judges for the appeal. V-very few people were there. There was-- it wasn't... Chassidim, Bacharim didn't come. It wasn't like a whole thing. There were very few people there. Somehow I was zecha to be there. Zecha, whatever, whatever that means. But I, you know, I think because I was going to Australia, you know, my, my father had a little rachmanus, and, and, uh, you know, I was, I was able to go. And there were three, there were three judges. It was a, you know, a malthastika, you know, uh, room, I remember. And it was lepoel when you sat through it, you felt like they're on our side. They were a number of the... Each one of them said something, the way I recall, that, that gave an indication like that. You know, one of them, uh, was to the other lawyer, he kind of, uh, said, look, quite strongly. He's like, "Why did he come in the-- why did he come in the middle of the night?" Or something like that. Which is what the Rebbe said. Which is very interesting. Yeah. The Rebbe mentioned once about, uh, Yeah. The Rebbe mentioned it. And, and, and, and also, by the way, the Rebbetzin in a, in a conversation that she says in her deposition, she mentioned, you know, why come in that way. So it's very interesting that the judge looked at it. So once we

3:28:44 Speaker 1 heard those things, it gave a very good feeling of, of, you know, that it, it looks good. Um, and then we thought again, "Oh, a few days, a few days, a few days." So, you know, we're gonna get it. We're gonna, we're gonna at least be here for the, you know, for the, for the outcome. The lepoel time is going, and the Hanala was not very organized because it was never done before, a second group. So it's not like we knew what's going on. No one told us too much about the heroes or what it means to go to Australia and, and everything else. So what-- We didn't know that much. And, and, you know, ultimately, they told us. They gave us a, a time when we're coming. Um, Lag Ba-- We ended up leaving. We, we spoke. Usually, they used to go before Pesach. We ended up going after Lag BaOmer. We ended up going, like, like, uh, at the end of Iyar, close to the end of Iyar. Uh, and so... And for me, it was like every day, "Oh, I have another day to wait for the, for the outcome." Um, I wrote to the Rebbe on behalf of the group that we're going, and I wrote a letter that, that, uh, that we're going, and we were arriving in Eretz Yisrael. The Rebbe always wanted the Shluchim of Australia to go to Eretz Yisrael. And there was heroes of going to the yeshivas, to go to Mekomei HaKedoshim, et cetera, uh,

3:30:07 Speaker 1 to the holy places. And, uh, and the Rebbe wanted the, the Bacharim to speak and to, to, to, to bring the message for the Rebbe. So, but again, no one spoke to us. We didn't know much, but, and we're arriving Thursday night, and we're leaving Monday morning. Usually, they would have a lot. They were there, like, for a week. So how much could we really fit, uh, get there? And no one told me that you're gonna take us around. That was the year that Zusha, the partisan, passed away that year. So he used to be the one to take around the Bacharim. So we didn't know anything. So I wrote to the Rebbe, and I wrote kind of vague that we're gonna go to yeshivas and to Mekomei HaKedoshim, but I didn't write details, and I didn't write how many, you know, 'cause I didn't know what's gonna happen. So that was one letter I wrote. I also wrote a, a second piece of paper. I didn't wanna put it on the same paper. So I wrote a little piece of paper that the day we arrive in Australia is gonna be my twentieth birthday, and I'm asking for a bracha. So the Rebbe responded. The Rebbe, you know, you get a response. The Rebbe underlined the words that I wrote about going to Yeshivas Chabad, and that, that became the answer. I don't have the letter right now, but that became the answer of to go to Yeshivas Chabad and, you know. And then

3:31:18 Speaker 1 on, on our, on, on my, on my, on my paper the Rebbe wrote, uh, Anyway, I won't go through the whole trip to Eretz Yisrael and everything else. We came to, we came to Australia, and it was, it was very difficult, um, to, to think, you know, you're there and, and what's happening in seven hundred and seventy, what's happening by the Rebbe and, and especially with the Svar, you know, all, all, all that. Um, and it's, it's very interesting. You know, the Bacharim that were there, uh, you know, there was... We spoke about it years later, and the, the, the yearning that was there at that time, it was in a way a painful yearning, but it was, was very special, you know, in terms of, of, of, of, of that difficulty of being away. Then came Then came the day of Chaf Teshrin. And, uh, that was, uh, an interesting year because it was, it was, uh, the first Kinus Hashlachom HaOlami international c-conference, and, uh, the... We all knew how much, you know, how much, uh, you know, pleasure it gave to the Rebbe, the previous Kinus Hashlachom, and now you have from all over the world. It was also ten years from Ma'amad Harish. So now it's ten years, you know. What could that mean? And of course, we were waiting for the Tzfatim. And Chaf Teshrin came, and we got the news that there is Didan Natsach. So yeah, so the... So we hear about the... We, we get the notice,

3:33:00 Speaker 1 uh, in, in, in, in, in Australia, whenever it was. It could be it was five in the morning that we got the notice. I don't remember right now. And immediately, that's saying l'chaim, we're dancing. And so I'm running immediately to, to, and, you know, as it gets closer to s-seven o'clock or whatever, when it's gonna be davening, so I'm running to, to the Yeshiva College to, to Rabbi Groner. Like, I'm looking, who am I...? Who do you go to? Who do you fabreng with or what, what do we do? So I remember I come into his, to his, uh... I come to his house on, on... I think it's Ninety-Two Hotham Street. And, uh, he was, uh, he had a, a simple house. He was a Chassidishe Yid. And I, uh, I come. I think the front door was open. It was still, like, early morning. He was still in bed. And I come in, and I scream out, you know, "Rabbi Groner, Didan Natsach." I'm, like, telling him the news. I even went into his, like, living room, which was right, you know, near the hallway, which is where his bedroom is. And, uh, he scr-screams out from his bed. He screams out, "Kasriel, hazkenu me mashke?" And I, I felt like at that time, like, okay, like we're not on the same wavelength, you know. And I just ran out. I went to the, to the, to Yeshiva, and over there, there were some people. We got up to dance. It was a

3:34:35 Speaker 1 feeling by the bochurim that were there. It was, it was, it was difficult 'cause you, you didn't feel like the, necessarily the people understood- What's going on. What's going on and understood us and, you know, it looked like you guys are crazy. You know, it's like... And, uh, later you'll see that, uh, it, it's not that way with Rabbi Groner, but I'm saying it, it, it, it was... You know, that was a feeling by, by bochurim. And, um, we get to the next two days, we, we fabrengd and, and by, you know, what's going through my mind at the time by us, it's like, what do we do? Like how, you know, how, how could we not be by the Rebbe? We have to go to the Rebbe. What do we do here? Like, what do we do? But it's Australia, and, uh, you know, you can't go without the Rosh Yeshiva of An'gle. We didn't know all the answers and things like... We didn't know everything about how s-you know, serious it was like we know today. But we knew, you know, that basically, especially in our minds, it was like this An'gle, we can't go without Rosh Yeshiva of An'gle, and this An'gle is never gonna, never gonna allow it. Then we were also waiting to know when are the Tzfatim coming back. So, so then Thursday comes the next news that the Tzfatim are coming back, and they're coming back on Monday. So it's very different. Now, you know, a big kis-

3:35:53 Speaker 1 You know that- You know the big kislev it's arriving, and there's a Kinus Hashlachom, everything else. So that for me was, was just too much. Like, uh, how can we sit here? We have to go. On the other hand, I looked at the... They're not gonna let us. So I remember Friday afternoon, I was very like tzarbach, like I, I didn't know what to do with myself 'cause, uh, I guess also we didn't sleep for a few days. We're gonna l'chaim, and... But I was very, you know, like tsutragen. Like I, I, I couldn't sit with myself. And I came to Rabbi Groner's house, and I, I knocked on his door. He was sitting at his desk. He was a very friendly guy. He liked... He used to be very warm to the bochurim. And, um, and I, I sit down there and, and, uh, all of a sudden, he, like, leans out, lean-leans on his desk, and he looks at me and he says, "Kasriel, you want Tzfat, nah?" And for me, that was like a shock to my system 'cause I... The last thing I thought is Rabbi Groner is gonna... So I just, I lost it. I just burst out crying. I just, I, I, I, I was... You know, everything came out, so to speak. And I was embarrassed. I got up, and I, I left. I left the house. I wasn't planning to. I, I... Like I thought maybe I can ask him, but I, I didn't think he would...

3:37:10 Speaker 1 But I walked out, and in my head I'm saying, "Oh, there's a pisus, there's a pisus space here." There's tichia. There's, there's, there's a makom. So I come back to the Chevre, I come to the Cheverim, and, uh, I, I share it with, uh, Yossi Garelik, uh, so one of my Cheverim and others, and we're talking about it. And basically, Shabbos came, and we decided we have to get Rosh Yeshiva of An'gle. We have to, we have to go. So Shabbos afternoon, we walked a few miles. I don't know how far it was, but there was Rav Chaim Gutnick, alav ha-shalom. He had a shul. We never used to go. He wasn't close enough to go normally, at least in my memory. And but we said, if we're gonna wait till Motzei Shabbos, it's, it's already gonna be too, too late and so on. So we went to his house. We come there. All of a sudden, this group of bochurim that comes to his house on, on, on Shabbos afternoon. He was shocked. Anyway, we start talking to him. We tell him we wanna go. And, um, we, at the end of Shabbos, it comes Motzei Shabbos and, uh, after Avdah, and he, uh, he, he doesn't, he doesn't know what to do. So I, so we call Yossel Gutnick, his son. He was also a member of An'gle. And he was someone that knew that all the years that he knows he was very close to Rabbi Yonah Klein, and he knew the

3:38:27 Speaker 1 answers. He knew that the Rebbe is... It's like agafrek. Like, how, how could you, you know, how could you go? And so he says to me, "You know..." So he, his father's standing there, and I'm on the phone with him. And so I said to him, "If, if Rabbi Chaim Gutnick and Rabbi Groner think it's a good idea, are you maskin?" Says, "Chaim Gutnick, my father, how can I say something different?" I said, "Okay." So we put down the phone. We call Rabbi Groner, and, uh, we had one phone with him. No, we kept his phone. We had one phone with him. We had one phone with Rabbi Groner, and we got on the phone with Rabbi Groner, and Chaim Gutnick says to him, uh, you know, "What do we do?" So Yitzchok Groner says, "Ich halt pas is pkuach nefesh." Pkuach nefesh, I think he got scared that we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna lose it. You know, we're gonna go off our... So, so I said to Yossel, I said, "Okay, we have Rabbi Groner, we have..." So we had a agreement of three members of the chevre that, that we could go. Now, there was more members to the chevre, and there was a few of them that we knew would never hear of it. So we needed one more. A roiv. We needed a roiv. So from there, we went to Rabbi Shalom Gutnick, who was an Alter Rebbe Rov in, in Australia. I think he was maybe even an older

3:39:45 Speaker 1 brother than Chaim. I'm not sure. And we come to his house 11 o'clock at night, 12 o'clock at night, motzei Shabbos, and we're gonna go. We're gonna knock on his door. We all came. We all, all the chevre. And, um, and, uh, we, we, we knock on the door, and I, I'll tell you, I was look... I look into his house, and he's pashut laying on his carpet. I saw through the window, on the carpet, and he has a bunch of sefarim laid out. Pashut gezemen a-aid. He's doing, he's learning. He's doing research. It was, ah, you know, it's interesting. Knock on the door, he comes to the door, and, and we start talking. We come into, into his house, and we start telling him. And he says, "Ah, you wanna have fun with the boys." You know. And that's when I... Like, that was one of those moments that I felt like, like, you, you just don't understand, you know. And I started talking to him, and I said, "Rabbi Gutnick, you have to understand." And I start telling him how we said tefillim and how everything we do, we daven, and we learn, and, and, and, uh, you know, this is our life. I, I start going down, down, down. I was like- You started doing a whole podcast. I started doing a whole thing. Just I was l- unloading on him. And then I said to him, "Tell us anything. Give us a mesechta to learn baal pe. Give us anything you

3:41:08 Speaker 1 want. You know, we'll do." And I'm, and I kept continuing, and he, and then he finally, he goes, "Okay, okay, okay, okay. Go, go, go." So we had Rabbi Shalom Gutnick. We look at each other. We walk out of the house, and that was it. We had a roiv for the chevre. So we went to Sally Spiegler's house, who was... This is at midnight, and he was a gvir that he helped. He paid for all of us to go on America shlichas in all over Australia and other places. Anyway, we had a meeting where we, we got together all the 12 chevre, and we decided we're buying tickets. He took out his American Express. He didn't give it to... We all said we're willing to pay, but we didn't have money on the spot. We made tickets with his American Express that we'll pay him back. And literally, within a short period of time, we all had flights going from Melbourne to Sydney to go to the Rebbe. And i-if it wasn't him, I mean, most people would, would, would, you know, would never go such a thing. But he was, he was that kinda guy. And, um- He wasn't expecting to get paid back. No, he was. He was, he was paid. In this, in this thing. He, he did a lot of other things. Yeah. And, um, so I'm sitting there with my chevre, Yossi Garelik. After we got all the tickets, and I said, "You know, tomorrow morning, uh, they're gonna wake

3:42:28 Speaker 1 up, and there'll be some members who will start tumbling, and then they'll get others to question it. And then who knows what's gonna happen." So the flight from Melbourne was, let's say, leaving 11 o'clock on Sunday or 12 o'clock on Sunday. By that time, they could already say, "We can't go." We gotta get out of here. We gotta get out of here. So the plane from Melbourne, the tickets that we had already was from Melbourne to Sydney and from Sydney to, to there. So Yossi and myself, we got tickets from Melbourne to Sydney, separate tickets, five o'clock in the morning. So like this, we're in Sydney. The bochurim left already. So we come to, we come to Sydney Airport. We arrive, and the truth is, I was, you know, libi nikhfie. You know, the farbrengen is soon gonna finish in New York. The Shabbos farbrengen. What's it gonna be? Who knows? We're gonna hear from New York one way or the other. Like, who knows if this is all gonna work? Like, you know. Oh, and the iker, I was more worried that someone from Australia is gonna call the Yonah Klein or Rabbi Groner, and they'll tell him no, and then we won't be able to go. So, so there I was. I was by a payphone, and I called my sister, who was in, in Melbourne. She was a shlucha in, in, in, in seminary for Rabbi Groner. She's today the wife of Rabbi Yossie Greenberg in Al-Alaska. And she was very involved

3:43:53 Speaker 1 in, in, in the whole thing herself. From before, she was very connected to the whole story and everything else. So I called her up, and she heard then from... 'Cause I didn't have money to whatever. And she heard from the farbrengen. She tells me that there was a farbrengen, and the Rebbe, it was incredible galuyim, and the Rebbe gave... The Rebbe said he's giving out a maamer tomorrow night. To shluchim. The first time the Rebbe gave his own maamer, Veshifti b'Shalom v'beSaviv. He's gonna give it to every shliach. Now, in, in general, the Rebbe didn't announce things he's giving the next day 'cause people will come flying in. And here, the Rebbe by the farbrengen Shabbos said that all shluchim are going, and that included shluchim bochurim. And he's gonna give it tomorrow, tomorrow, uh, uh, night, and the Rebbe said he's gonna help shluchim with money, and, and it was ten years of lamdvches, and it was the Kinus. The place was in, in heaven. And as soon as she told me what the Rebbe said, I said, "Okay." 'Cause until then, I didn't tell anyone that we're leaving. We were scared. As soon as I heard that, I felt like, "Okay, there's no, there-there's no one holding us back." So I called the Sydney. I-- We didn't tell Sydney that we're going. We-- I was in Sydney. I called them up as soon as we heard that. I said, "Chevre, we're all going to be the hamotzar. The kids said they arranged for

3:45:08 Speaker 1 the whole yeshiva, 12 bochurim or whatever it was, to go. And then I started calling people in Melbourne. So I called Yungleit. We became very close to Yungleit over the time that we were there. One of them, I remember, is, uh, uh, Reb Levi Mutchkin and a few others. We call people, "Chevre, we're going. Get on the plane. You can get on to Melbourne at this time. You can join." This was crazy. In Australia, to leave, it was a very expensive and bachla to go from Australia to America for something. It was like it was out of the world. We ended up, we were all on the plane. We had thirty people flying from Melbourne to-

3:45:43 Speaker 4 No, but you were in, you were in a different flight. Yeah.

3:45:46 Speaker 1 No, no, no, no. I w-- I joined them when they came to Sydney.

3:45:49 Speaker 4 Oh.

3:45:49 Speaker 1 The plane came to Sydney, from Sydney to America.

3:45:51 Speaker 4 Right.

3:45:52 Speaker 1 So I joined them over there, and we were all on the plane. I remember I remember Shmueli Boteach. He was in Sydney. He came out of surgery. He had a surgery of some kind. I don't know wha- maybe it was before Shabbos. I don't know when, but he was still under the influence of the medication, everything else. He, he came to the plane. He was sleeping on the, uh, on, on, on the plane, but he, he didn't have a... He was still under, under the influence of his... He literally was, was in those few days in the hospital, and he's going. Just melancholic, you know. So we arrived in, in, in New York, like we came to Seven Seventy. It was like ten o'clock at night Sunday. The Rebbe gave out the mamar already earlier. Um, and we, we arrived. I remember we were dancing over there in the front part of Seven Seventy, and Australia, people talking. But we came. That was Sunday night. The next day was melancholic. That was the day that this farmer came back. And, um, uh, so everybody knows the story. We're all standing outside Seven Seventy and waiting for the Rebbe to go to the aisle, and the Rebbe came out and melancholic. Um, very, you know, very str-- I, I should tell you before that, that we were... I still remember, we were standing there waiting, you know. And what happened was there were actually some shluchim and I, uh, gave a hatsa'at ha'go that, that when

3:47:21 Speaker 1 the Tzarim come back, there should be like a parade, and it should be with like a whole, uh, some kind of-

3:47:25 Speaker 4 Fanfare.

3:47:26 Speaker 1 Some kind of fanfare. How else, you know? And they wrote it into the Rebbe. And the Rebbe wrote out a tsittel, which is clearly a himeldik at tsittel. The Rebbe writes that it should, that it-- this ti-this time, because it's gonna be with a kium and melancholic, it should be melancholic. And it was clear that the Rebbe wanted it differently.

3:47:49 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

3:47:50 Speaker 1 And, you know, people gave taichen to it, lo chshinias-

3:47:54 Speaker 4 Right

3:47:54 Speaker 1 ... whatever. But it was-- the interesting thing is my memory is that we were standing outside, and while we were standing outside, the mic, they actually, someone announced this tsittel. It, it-- we, we didn't even have time to digest it. Like, it-- no one... I, I was standing with El- I was standing with melancholic.

3:48:13 Speaker 4 It didn't, it didn't translate to not stand there.

3:48:15 Speaker 1 Right.

3:48:15 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

3:48:16 Speaker 1 Right. And I was standing with shluchim. I was standing with peo-- It wasn't only bachurim. It was many people. Everyone was standing. You know, how many times you stand by the Rebbe waiting for the Rebbe to come out? It wasn't such a chidush, you know. It was a... But obviously, this was a, it was a himeldik inyan, and whatever, the Rebbe expected differently, obviously. And the Rebbe came out, and it was very strong words about standing and looking at the melancholic, and, and this is what, you know, melancholic. It was, it was, it was a very painful moment.

3:48:46 Speaker 4 It's un-it's like unlike anything-

3:48:48 Speaker 1 Moment to be in. I, I'll tell you the truth. I, I, I... It was, it was... Say, say it again.

3:48:53 Speaker 4 It's unlike... There's a video of it. It's unlike anything-

3:48:56 Speaker 1 Yeah

3:48:57 Speaker 4 ... anyone ever witnessed.

3:49:00 Speaker 1 Yeah.

3:49:01 Speaker 4 And how the, how the Elam just, uh, as soon as the Rebbe starts turning.

3:49:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, I saw two seconds of the video, and I never watched it.

3:49:09 Speaker 4 Then I watched it.

3:49:11 Speaker 1 Whatever. It was, it was very, you know, it was very difficult, uh, but we were there.

3:49:17 Speaker 4 The Rebbe speaking, and then as soon as the Rebbe, the Rebbe speaking with his hands, which is also unusual, then as soon as the Rebbe starts-

3:49:24 Speaker 1 Hooked off the-

3:49:24 Speaker 4 The Rebbe say, "A room and a room." The Rebbe starts turning around. All of a sudden, everyone-

3:49:28 Speaker 1 Is running

3:49:29 Speaker 4 ... runs.

3:49:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. I know my-- I said earlier, my chevre, melancholic, he tells me that, uh, I, I don't remember, of course, but tells me he saw me coming into Seven Seventy, and my face was white like a sheet. And everyone was. I mean, it was, it was a, it was a very, uh, very difficult. And, um, and we sat down to learn. And the Rebbe went to the aisle. And I don't know if it was right then. It could be that I went to mikveh then. I don't remember the details, but we were in Seven Seventy for a long time. Then it came a, a point, and maybe I shouldn't say this, but, uh, it came to a point where I remember, like, I didn't know. I couldn't speak to anyone. I couldn't discuss it with anyone because we're learning. I didn't... We weren't gonna talk. But by me, it was like, this farmer coming back. This is melancholic, you know. And I didn't know what's the right thing to do. Like, what are we... We're just gonna... We're not gonna... Like, it wasn't completely making sense to me. So at some point, I took my, my Sefer, and I went out, and I walked into Yudl's office, that same office, uh, which was near the driveway. That was Yudl's office. Yudl's desk was right there. Yudl was then by the aisle, and there was a few shluchim there also. So I sat down by Yudl's desk. On the other side of the desk, I sat

3:50:53 Speaker 1 down with my-

3:50:54 Speaker 4 That became your zow

3:50:55 Speaker 1 ... with my Shilchan Aruch or Gemara, whatever. It was probably a Gemara. And I, I sat down. melancholic. It's about three feet from the window that's right by- Uh, by Eastern Parkway with a-- I'm-- I see shluchim there. Okay, you know. So the Rebbe, the Rebbe screamed at everybody, you know what I mean? These were Chassidishe Yidden and they were there. So I sat and I was learning, and all of a sudden someone says, "Oh, the truck is here." And everyone just moved right over to the window. They didn't go out, but I stand. I was right at, you know, so that's why I also, I, uh, I was by the window, and the truck comes, and they're coming out with the seferim. It was very quiet. There was no one on the street. There was no... You know. And I remember looking. It was obviously, you know, you realize that, you know, this is a moment and there was all of a sudden I feel someone's, you know, arms around me, and all of a sudden he squeezes me tight. He's holding on and squeezing my, my whole body, you know. So I give a look up. It's, it's Geschem Mendel. So he was... It was, you know, it was emotional. He was, he was like holding on and, and squeezing me, hugging me, you know. It was... And imagine, Geschem Mendel, I think Shlomo Cunningham was there, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure. And they were there inside. They didn't go out

3:52:20 Speaker 1 of it. We saw it and went right back to, to learning. So that was, you know, that was the, that was the, uh, abarcher. You know, it doesn't mean it was right. It doesn't mean... I'm not saying it was right or wrong. I'm just telling you what, what happened.

3:52:36 Speaker 4 Did you like, uh, did you feel... Yeah, did it feel like that it was wrong af-after the Rebbe's reaction?

3:52:43 Speaker 1 I didn't feel it was wrong 'cause I was with Chassidishe Yidden and, and I, I was learning. I mean, I wa-- I didn't, you know, I didn't go out. I didn't, you know. It was-

3:52:51 Speaker 4 The whole fact, the whole fact that you came.

3:52:53 Speaker 1 Huh?

3:52:53 Speaker 4 The whole fact that you guys-

3:52:54 Speaker 1 Oh.

3:52:54 Speaker 4 -came from Australia.

3:52:55 Speaker 1 So no, I, I-- we didn't... Listen, we were ... Let, let me ask, let me ask you a question. Let me ask a question. The Rebbe, first of all, when you'll hear later about the farbrengen after, the Rebbe said, the Rebbe knew that Bo-- there were many shluchim bochurim came, by the way, not only Australia. There were some other places that came after the Rebbe said he's giving a, a maamer to Evi Shliach, and the Rebbe gave them a maamer on Sunday afternoon. The Rebbe knew the shluchim are coming in. The Rebbe, it, it wasn't a shail about coming to the Rebbe. Also, remember, uh, like I said, it wasn't just bochurim. It was shluchim. It was sider. It was... They were standing there. It wasn't about coming to the Rebbe. Chassidim come to the Rebbe, has always come to the Rebbe. That the Rebbe was, was, was, was making a big tzimmes of, of, of the day and everything else the Rebbe did. What was done at that time obviously was wrong, and obv-- it seems to many Chassidim like it was definitely a himbudik iningen. But whatever. I'm not here to, uh, to explain that. But to, to come to a conclusion that somehow it means that, that the Rebbe doesn't want Ɣezal faryn di darn natsach or anything like that, I, I, I don't think that's the translation. The Rebbe said the next Shabbos. The Rebbe said that, uh, he was asked, "Why did you..." And, uh, they're coming to, to, to,

3:54:15 Speaker 1 to-

3:54:15 Speaker 4 To L'meh.

3:54:17 Speaker 1 The Rebbe said that. The Rebbe-

3:54:17 Speaker 4 Why did I react like that?

3:54:19 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the Rebbe said, "It's a kake. It's a gute zach. Uh, tan-tanzen on, on, uh, aufd egene in a zeit fun essen, zeit fun shlofn." That's when you, that's when you dance. Like the Rebbe, the Rebbe was saying. So and by the way, I, I, I do want-

3:54:35 Speaker 4 It's about the, about the chushuvus of learning, basically.

3:54:37 Speaker 1 Right.

3:54:38 Speaker 4 Yeah.

3:54:38 Speaker 1 Right. And, and I'll tell you, even that sicha some people describe like it was a sharp sicha.

3:54:43 Speaker 4 The Beis Kisva.

3:54:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. Like the Shabbos after.

3:54:46 Speaker 4 Oh, yeah.

3:54:46 Speaker 1 Like to me it was like an incredible-

3:54:48 Speaker 4 Ah, then I-

3:54:48 Speaker 1 ... piro.

3:54:48 Speaker 4 Yeah.

3:54:48 Speaker 1 It was like the Rebbe was, was, was, was addressing and saying that, that f-- like it's farshtandik that of course you have to dance, of course, it's a simcha, but you didn't do it in the right way. Um, anyway, that's, you know. So I went out that day, actually. Uh, a little later, my, my, uh, my fetter, uh, Mendel Futerfas, was standing outside seven seventy with like my whole family. It was like my father, uh, my aunt Fradel Sodak, and a whole bunch of the family were standing outside. They went into the Rebbetzin. I think it could be the next day. They went. They had Yechidut-

3:55:23 Speaker 4 Sodak.

3:55:24 Speaker 1 They, they, they... Sodak's Azimov, they went into the Rebbetzin to wish mazal tov, and the Rebbetzin then said to them that this, "Itz der heyp tsikhon a naye tkufah." Now starts a new, new tkufah. And it was a very special. But they were standing outside, and at that point, whenever that was, they were all smiling and everyone was happy. It was still even, you know. So I come over and they see me coming from a distance. They know I came from Australia. So they're, "Oh," you know. They were welcoming me. So I come over to Fetter, we called him Fetter Mendel. He was, uh, my uncle on both sides. So I said to him, you know, I knew him. He used to come to Detroit every year for a week or two, stay at my house and collect money. So I became close to him on a certain level. So like I kind of, uh, whispered to him, I said, "You know, there's people telling me, az afshurn menesh gefardt kumen." And he said, "Lame did it tze on a maise fun dein zeiden." And he tells me a maise with my zeide, Ben Jeshemtev, that he was in Paris, that the Rebbe came to Paris, and, uh, he spent a lot of time with the Rebbe. And the Rebbe then said to him how kol Chassidim are not coming to the friediker Rebbe. And my zeide said to him that, uh, there was a roy-- there was, there was, the, the, the friedike Rebbe

3:56:44 Speaker 1 said not to or something like that. I don't remember the exact lashon, but that was... And he said, the Rebbe said, and the Rebbe said to my zeide, and he said, "Af kumen tsum Rebbe darf nisht." And I don't remember if it was darf nisht fregn or darf nisht folgn. It's a big difference, but I don't know. I, I don't remember. But that's... And he's smiling. He says, "Don't..." Like, you know. So anyway, we continued. We had a, we had a conversation. So that was- That was-- you can imagine. I'm asking Futter Mendel, I'm asking Mendel Futterfas and that's his reaction. And bachlal, it wasn't, you know... But at the same time, to me, I came, I was here by the Rebbe, get on top plane and, and, and go back. Like I-- it was all good. I, I, I didn't come to... People ask me, "Oh, you're upset you didn't get a maimer. You just me-" I wasn't looking to get the maimer. I wasn't looking to have any, you know, whatever. We came, we were there, we were by the Rebbe. That's the way it felt. I'm in 717, I'm walking. I remember still. I was in the middle of 717, like where the shul tables are by the close to the bathrooms, and I-- and someone, uh, comes over to me and says, "Dan Holos says, Dan Holos sent a message for Australia that we have to be back after Y-Yud Kislev." Or by Yud Kislev, I remember right now. No, after

3:58:02 Speaker 1 Yud Kislev, I think. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh." Like, like to me, I literally thought, "Okay, we're gonna get on a plane and go back."

3:58:11 Speaker 4 May have had time.

3:58:12 Speaker 1 But by them, no. By them it was like you spend money, you're going to America, you have to at least be there a week or ten days or-

3:58:19 Speaker 4 Yeah.

3:58:19 Speaker 1 -you know, you can't tell them to come back, you know? So that... I'm, I'm just saying that's when I realized that the, the from a Bachar's perspective, you know what, you know. And I was so happy I could be by Shabbos, by Fabringen, and it was an amazing thing. The Rebbe asked that when the Rebbe's on the oil, the Rebbe asked to send the first three books that come out of the box.

3:58:41 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

3:58:42 Speaker 1 And one of those books was Derech Hamuna.

3:58:43 Speaker 4 Derech Hamuna.

3:58:45 Speaker 1 And, uh, the Rebbe chose that book to print, and the Rebbe wanted it before Shabbos, and they, they printed it, and it was, was beautiful. The Rebbe by the Fabringen, the Rebbe... It was very unusual. I mean, there was once by the Siman Rambam or, but, or maybe sometimes Kotlaeli Tzaura, but the Rebbe came with the-

3:59:04 Speaker 4 The Derech Hamuna.

3:59:05 Speaker 1 -with the Derech Hamuna, and the Rebbe spoke from the Derech Hamuna, learned from the Derech Hamuna, from the first Sefer that came out, et cetera. It was a very ov geheiben of Fabringen. It was very special. And one of the things that the Rebbe said then was i-in, in that Fabringen was, uh, spoke about Veshavti veshalom avbeis avi.

3:59:28 Speaker 4 That's the maimer that Rebbe gave out.

3:59:30 Speaker 1 Yeah. And the Rebbe said by that... Oh, first of all, the Rebbe said, like we said earlier about, uh, those that, uh, I was asked, they say it was the Rebbetsin that why do you get upset if, if, uh... And the Rebbe said that, that, that, that, uh, of course, it's good to, it's g-good to have a simcha and everything else, but in their own time. Whatever. That was the part of that. And, and then the Rebbe spoke about this thing of Veshavti veshalom avbeis avi. I don't remember when in the Fabringen it was, but the Rebbe said that a, a big shailah, Yaakov is erst leaving Yitzchak. He's going on a shlichus. He's starting a shlichus. He didn't even leave yet, and he's already asking the Aibish, "Veshavti veshalom avbeis avi." First, first go, then you'll ask to come back. The Rebbe said, as when Ayid gate arus, and he's going out on shlichus, he's going to, to, to, to Charan or whatever. Already before he leaves, he's already thinking about when will come the time that I could come back avbeis avi. That was like, wow. You know, if you needed a sicha to talk about how-

4:00:32 Speaker 4 To you.

4:00:32 Speaker 1 How... Well, not to me, but, but, but-

4:00:35 Speaker 4 Your situation.

4:00:36 Speaker 1 I guess you... You know what? I guess. So-

4:00:38 Speaker 4 Is that not what you're saying?

4:00:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm s-- I, I don't know. I didn't think it was to me, but my point is, whatever. My point was the concept that it's okay-

4:00:47 Speaker 4 Right

4:00:47 Speaker 1 ... that you, you have both sides. You have to go on shlichus, and you have to wanna come back. It's okay, you know? It's... Anyway, when I, when I came to Australia, so theee-- it was very hard. There were some people that were upset and everything else. It wasn't simple. And, um, so the, the, but we were at some event, and they asked me to speak, so I, I shared that sicha. I remember I came to, to Rabbi Groner's house, and he-- we didn't understand how hard it was for him. He had a board. There was someone that wanted to resign from the board. You know, you know Bach-

4:01:20 Speaker 4 Time clash.

4:01:21 Speaker 1 Y-yeah. You know Bacham don't understand always what... I was actually sensitive to these things. My father's, you know, I knew what it, what it means when you have to deal with a community, et cetera. But at the end of the day, he, he was there. He had to stay there and deal with all the, you know, all the comments, you know, and all the challenges. So by the time I come back and, you know, I, after two weeks or whatever, ten days, I walk into his house and, you know, he was a tall person. And, uh, I walk in and, uh, he like walks towards me. He gives me a smack across my face, and he goes, "Shemtev. Vistapach. Aber agishmache pach." That was, uh, that was Rabbi Groner. That, that was, you know, that was him. You wanna know something? I w- I wanna say this because when I left, and it's all thanks to him. He felt... He was one of the... By the way, he was on the vaad shlichim. He was on conference calls every week. He was involved. He was involved the whole time.

4:02:23 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

4:02:23 Speaker 1 And inside, he, you know, he knew what it's about. It's-- if not for his statement to me, I don't think it would happen.

4:02:30 Speaker 4 Right.

4:02:30 Speaker 1 It was really, I thank him. And what's interesting was my sister, I told you, she was in the seminary, and we left, and it seems like she was crying. You know, she was, it was emotional. It was, you know, what was going on? Rabbi Groner all of a sudden comes in, or he sends someone. He bought a ticket and put her on a plane.

4:02:52 Speaker 4 Yeah.

4:02:52 Speaker 1 And she came in for, for basically a girl from, from Melbourne, Australia, by Rabbi Groner.

4:02:59 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

4:03:00 Speaker 1 So there's another thing I wanna say. What the people, people say, "Oh, why'd you come in to the Rebbe?" I wanna give you an understanding of what people felt at that time. After Shabbos, I only heard this later, Yossel Glutnik called right away, me on the Klein. He's the maskir, and Binyamin Klein was the one that got all the tzaddik. Everything with Australia was through Binyamin Klein, at least at that time. And or whatever, I shouldn't say that, but at least he-- that was his contact, and that was a lot about the yeshiva, I think.

4:03:31 Speaker 4 Yossel, everything.

4:03:32 Speaker 1 Not only Yossel, the yeshiva, the yeshiva gedola, I think was... It's no difference. But-

4:03:37 Speaker 4 He was in Australia also.

4:03:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So he calls Reb Binyamin, alav ha-shalom, and he says to him, like, "What do you say? The bachur, we left already, but the bachur wanna go. And do you, you know, do you think he should go?" And what I heard was, he said, "It's a totally in hagish."

4:03:55 Speaker 4 Hmm.

4:03:56 Speaker 1 It, it depends on the fee- on, on, on, on, on the feeling. Now, if you know Rabbi Klein, someone that got all these answers from the Rebbe, like, he's just not that type of person. You know, he wasn't a con-- he wasn't that kind of guy. He was very, you know, straightforward. So that's what he answered. Rabbi Yitzchok Groner, alav ha-shalom, calls his brother, Rabbi Leibel Groner, alav ha-shalom. And he says-- and he calls him up, and he wanted to know also. And his response was, "Ze ha'yer mas HaShem nagid levanus achai." So both maskiriv. No one, no one, uh, accuses them of being wild bachurim.

4:04:32 Speaker 4 Right.

4:04:33 Speaker 1 They felt like we're in a different time. Like this is, all bets are off, all things are off. That was the spirit. That's how we came. That's why we were there. It's not about, oh, we were standing outside in the Rebbe's... That was the matzav. And the Rebbe Shabbos was, was, in my opinion, was, uh, clearly what happened, happened. But I'm just telling you that that's, that was, that was what, what Idan Noach meant at that time.

4:05:01 Speaker 4 Right. So, and but he's still in Australia till, till when were you in Australia?

4:05:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. I, I'll tell you. From when I came back, i-in a way it was easier because you're ready, you're ready kind of were-- y-you went back ready. You didn't feel like-

4:05:19 Speaker 4 The same.

4:05:20 Speaker 1 -distant. It's an interesting thing psychologically. But then came Chabad Shvat. Whatever. That's, that's, that's another, another subject.

4:05:28 Speaker 4 That the chaval changed the whole matzav.

4:05:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, everything changed. I'm just saying there was, there was... But that's, that's not for now. Um-

4:05:35 Speaker 4 Um-

4:05:35 Speaker 1 And we-

4:05:38 Speaker 4 But then, so till when you were, were you in Australia?

4:05:41 Speaker 1 I was in Australia till, till Tosham, Adar Tosham in Tess.

4:05:45 Speaker 4 So this, the, the second court case started when, when you were there.

4:05:49 Speaker 1 When you say the second court case, you mean for the personal, uh-

4:05:52 Speaker 4 Yeah.

4:05:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. That was, that was, that was different. Um, and-

4:05:57 Speaker 4 Was that, was that-

4:05:58 Speaker 1 That's when, that's when these the, the, the, the, the, when the, when, when, when the Rebbe... There was the chaval, it's important to understand. There was, there was a... What happened was, after the case, even before, even by the appeal, it started being involved with others also, 'cause the other side went to Satmar.

4:06:19 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

4:06:20 Speaker 1 And they got people to fund and create problems. They were putting, getting, they were getting things, uh, sending up. There was Pashkvilin. There was going into the, trying to get write-ups and papers, bashmutzing the Rebbe and Lubavitch. I can't give you all the details now. I remember some of it. It was, it was very painful.

4:06:39 Speaker 4 They were going after individuals also, right?

4:06:41 Speaker 1 And, and, and, and I, I wanna tell you that... Well, you know what? It was even earlier. It was even earlier. Before I left, okay, so it's, it's, it could be it was like take in the beginning of the appeal. Just to give you an example of the tkufah. I was a bachur in, in, in, in Altada. And I, Friday night, for some reason, I was gonna stay in seven forty-nine, across the street in seven seventy. I don't know how that happened. I used to sometimes be with other bachur. I come, like twelve o'clock at night, Friday night, and I'm outside seven seventy, getting ready to go to the dorm. And, um, either Rabbi Shalom Gansberg himself came over to me or someone named Shalom Gansberg. I right now don't have that visual, and told me that the rebbetzin is concerned of the Rebbe going in the morning. The Rebbe used to go to seven seventy from the library, go down and go into seven seventy. I, I believe it was seven o'clock in the morning, maybe it was eight o'clock. I think it was seven o'clock. I'm not sure. You could ask anybody that knows these things. And when the Rebbe goes, she wanted two bachurim to be there, pashut, to be there like a shmirah. He comes over to me. I'm, I'm the last guy that would normally do that kind of thing. I, I didn't wanna be too close. Like, what I-- That was the way I was raised. I didn't, you

4:08:07 Speaker 1 know. But it's twelve o'clock at night. There's no bachurim around, and he's telling me that the Rebbe is asking and we need two bachurim. So I, I said, "Yeah." I had no idea, you know, what, what that means. But I, I, I'm saying this to underscore at that time what they were concerned about was also from these Vilda Chaber from Satmar or not Vilda Chaber. It was, there were threats, or there was a p- I, I don't know details, but that's the kind of... Imagine that, and imagine how we felt. The Rebbe to walk out of the library next door to seven seventy and walk on the sidewalk for... And you have to be worried about the Rebbe, and the rebbetzin has to be worried about that. It was, it was heartbreaking. It was, it was like, you know. So ganesh, I, I, I went, I got someone. I don't remember who it is. If someone hears this, they can, they can tell, remind me who the, who, who they are. And I, in the morning, we came there. So we, we we come there, and we're, you know, we're, again, we're always, like, hiding from the Rebbe. Like, we're not... Whatever. You don't stand, you know, open, so to speak. So we kind of were like, uh, we're, we're, like, standing, like, behind a tree or behind a pole. I don't know what it was. We were kinda waiting. And we, in my mind, we figured that the Rebbe was gonna come down, and

4:09:29 Speaker 1 when the Rebbe turns that way towards seven seventy, we're gonna come right across the street. And so we're waiting there, and the Rebbe comes out of the library. The Rebbe goes, goes, gives a turn, and we start coming across the street. Now, At that moment, there was a goy that was literally coming and walked past the Rebbe. Like, the big help that we were. You know, we weren't, we weren't even there. You know, it was like the Rebbe's walking further, and once the Rebbe's walking, in our mind, the Rebbe doesn't turn back around. You know, the Rebbe goes. So then we kinda went onto the sidewalk. The Rebbe's walking ahead, and we're, like, behind. And we were quite at a distance. The Rebbe goes to the front steps of seven seventy,70, goes up, and the Rebbe goes, like, halfway to the doors of 70, and then all of a sudden, the Rebbe gives a full turnaround And we're, like, standing there, like two embarrassed bachurim, like literally, like, burying ourself. And the Rebbe's looking at us, and it was a second, you know, and the Rebbe turns around and goes inside. I tell this story because, again, you imagine Shabbos morning, seven o'clock, whatever it is, ba- the Rebbetsin's asking bachurim to be there because there was... And that's what was going on. It was, there were, there were threats. There was, there was a concern. There was a concern. It was a very difficult-

4:10:56 Speaker 5 And you're saying es- and especially after, after the Svarim, there's nothing else to do with the Svarim, so that's what the, that's what-

4:11:02 Speaker 1 No, this, I think this, this was actually b- I think during the appeal when I was still there. Remember, it was-

4:11:07 Speaker 5 That's what I'm saying. You're-

4:11:09 Speaker 1 Right

4:11:09 Speaker 5 ... you started, you got into this 'cause you're talking about after the whole Svarim-

4:11:13 Speaker 1 Yes

4:11:14 Speaker 5 ... and the appeal. I guess that's the only tool in their arsenal to do these types of things.

4:11:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, they actually, they made another case, right, against the Rebbe personally, and that, and, and we understood that this, you know, f- the way we understood it was, you know, yeah, the Svarim and everything else is very important and everything else, but here they're pushut accusing the Rebbe and, and, and then again, the Rebbe, they wanna try to g- they wanted the Rebbe to come and give-

4:11:37 Speaker 5 Testify

4:11:38 Speaker 1 ... testimony. So that was a whole, a whole, uh, you know, uh, process that went on for a few years.

4:11:43 Speaker 5 Tosh M'Shanah.

4:11:44 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, and I wanna, I wanna just emphasize that, that, um, again, that the bachurim, y- y- your whole premise of this, of this session was, you know, what did the bachurim live with? And the bachurim, it wasn't just, you know, from, hey, Te- Yud Beis Tammuz until Cheit, Cheit Teves. After Cheit Teves was the appeal, and then there was the new case, and then there was a number of things that they wanted the Rebbe to come to give testimony. And there was, uh, Didan Natchah and another one. And the ultimate end was at the end of Tash M'Shanah. It was, like, five years of living with-- Even sometimes it was in the background, you might say. A- and by the way, a lot of bachurim at that point did not know what's happening. It wasn't well-known in Lubavitch what was going on with the personal case. But those that, you know, and there were those that didn't know. You have to be in the know-how. You know, you have to kind of be very interested-

4:12:41 Speaker 5 And because-

4:12:42 Speaker 1 ... to find out

4:12:42 Speaker 5 ... it's so, it was so ludicrous and, like, a manish against the Rebbe, like what, what-

4:12:46 Speaker 1 I think they weren't looking to, to publicize it. You know, they weren't looking to, you know, the... And, and that's why it wasn't until it happened, and then all of a sudden it was, it was, uh-

4:12:55 Speaker 5 I think it was five-

4:12:56 Speaker 1 Actually two, yesterday, two days ago, uh, it was Chovov Tishrei.

4:12:59 Speaker 5 I think until the Didan Natchah.

4:13:01 Speaker 1 Where are we now? Yeah. Yeah. W- And, and at that time, they, they, they started the case, and they wanted the Rebbe to say testimony, and the judge had to agree or not agree. And the judge emphatically said that the Rebbe is not-

4:13:15 Speaker 5 Not relevant

4:13:16 Speaker 1 His topic was he said, he said he wants to know what's, what's the value that the Rebbe's gonna bring. And basically, he wasn't convinced, and he said he's, he's, he's not going for it. They went and then made like, I don't know if it's an appeal, but some kind of you have an ability to come again and argue it, and he, he still didn't agree. So on that day, they came to the Rebbe, and it's, it's on video. There's, there's-- The Rebbe made with his hand, and they were singing Didan Natchah. There was a big fabringen of Agudas Chabad that night. This is Chovot Tishrei.

4:13:46 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

4:13:46 Speaker 1 Okay? What happened is the other side came, and now they wanted, uh, Achar passed away, and he gave all his belongings to, to-

4:13:58 Speaker 5 Agudas Chabad

4:13:59 Speaker 1 ... Agudas Chabad. And he wanted-

4:14:01 Speaker 5 He wrote a, he wrote a, uh-

4:14:03 Speaker 1 Wrote a, yeah

4:14:03 Speaker 5 ... he wrote a tzavah.

4:14:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, a tzavah. Yeah. And he wanted the, the other side wanted to get to, to have from that. And so at that point, it seems like the Rebbe was maskin that there should be something worked out. And there was a, a settlement that was created.

4:14:29 Speaker 5 So th- that was the settlement.

4:14:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, and there was a settlement that was created, and that settlement was you, you... Part of, you know, the legal arrangements, you have to know what does he have, you know, and it has to be legally. So the way it worked was when after the, uh, there was a company that came and took in storage all the belongings and took it to a storage house. It was a, it was a, uh, a place, an official storage house, you know. And there was a job that we had to do, 'cause right now everything was in the hands of Agudas Chabad. We had to come, and it, and it's like a neutral place. It's a storage house that's under court order or whatever it is. And-

4:15:11 Speaker 5 Like court marshals took everything?

4:15:13 Speaker 1 I, I don't know.

4:15:14 Speaker 5 Okay.

4:15:14 Speaker 1 I don't know. So this is after I came back from-

4:15:17 Speaker 5 Australia

4:15:18 Speaker 1 ... from Australia, and, uh, this is actually... No, this is a year and a half after I came back from Australia. So at that point, I was, I was asked, or a year after, I was asked by the office to go to the storage house and start making lists.

4:15:35 Speaker 5 What do you mean the office?

4:15:36 Speaker 1 By Rabbi Krinsky's office.

4:15:37 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

4:15:38 Speaker 1 To go and, and, and, and make lists, pushut lists of every item that is in, uh, that is in the house. It wasn't something I was looking to do. I was actually very uncomfortable, but, you know, I'm a bachur. I'm told that this is needed, and there was, uh, uh, you went, you know. Someone just gave me now from Rab Kinsey's office, gave me a letter with official permission for me that came from them to, to, you know, that I'm going at Kasriel Shavs. 40 years later, I was given this, this notice. So- I come there together with, there was a few other bachurim involved. I know Chaim Shaul was involved. There was, uh, I think Sham Cement, maybe Mendel Feller. There was different-- a few bachurim involved. I'm not sure exactly everybody. And at different times, we went, and we had to-

4:16:27 Speaker 5 Make an inventory.

4:16:28 Speaker 1 We had to make an inventory. So we come in there, and I see that there's, there's, uh, there's seforim, there's, uh, straps of tefillin, there's, there's, uh, material, uh, shirts of just the collar and the, the middle. Anyway, I'm a bachur, and I'm worried 'cause, you know, the Rebbe spoke so much about the chfeitzim and the ksavim and the seforim of the Rebbe that it was, it was like every ksav, every chfeitz, you know. And I'm thinking like, who knows, maybe this is from the Frizt Rebbe 'cause I used to hear they used to make material and give it out, so maybe the shirts are from the Frizt Rebbe, maybe the tefillin are from... You know, I was, like, scared to touch anything there, and I was You know, I was the, I was the... No one gave me guidance. It was like, make a list and, you know. As I'm going through the seforim, I came across a couple things that were clearly things that are, are, are, are, are negeia to the Rebbe. There was, there was a, a talim from the Rebbetzin, Sheina Sara, with the whole... I remember the front page was with calligraphy, like beautiful. She used to write big calligraphy, like, uh, a thing that was written, uh, you know, that was, I guess, her talim, I think, whatever it was. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. And then there was a machzor, an old machzor, brown, old machzor like, you know, from like a hundred years old at

4:17:52 Speaker 1 that time, and i- on the front, it had engraved, "Sheina." Now, I, I knew that, that I heard it was after Melchisedek already. I knew that there was nothing, that there was almost nothing they had from Sheina.

4:18:05 Speaker 5 The Rebbetzin's sister.

4:18:06 Speaker 1 Rebbetzin's sister. And, um, so wow, like this, you know, the Rebbe would for sure want this. Then there was a third sefarim. I don't remember. Anyway, lepil, we took it. We, we took it, and we... I remember I gave it to Yudl, to Rabbi Krinsky.

4:18:23 Speaker 5 You took it? What do you mean? I thought it was making lists.

4:18:27 Speaker 1 I wasn't gonna leave. I wasn't gonna leave seforim that, that, uh, belong in the library-

4:18:31 Speaker 5 You just took it

4:18:32 Speaker 1 ... to, to, to, to-

4:18:33 Speaker 5 And gave it.

4:18:33 Speaker 1 So I, I went to Yudl. I was in trepidation, you know, but I, I gave it to Rabbi Krinsky, and, um, and later he told me that he gave it to the Rebbe. And the way I remember it, I, I can't say 100% that the, the Rebbe gave a smile.

4:18:47 Speaker 5 Hmm.

4:18:49 Speaker 1 That was, you know, those, those are today in the library. Those, uh-

4:18:52 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

4:18:53 Speaker 1 Lpil, you'll see that that was the arrangement was that that is supposed to go to the Rebbe.

4:18:58 Speaker 5 Right.

4:18:58 Speaker 1 You know. So I'll, I'll tell you in a second, but... So anyway, so this I was doing just, you know, uh, in, in that time. Later, in Elul of 5750, all of a sudden they ask me they need someone to go and go to Washington to get papers signed by the lawyers. Somehow, I don't remember now if it was only our side or it was actually both sides. I don't know if the other side had a-

4:19:23 Speaker 5 This is... What, what paper was it?

4:19:24 Speaker 1 So this was the actual settlement papers that was gonna conclude-

4:19:31 Speaker 5 The whole case

4:19:32 Speaker 1 ... this. I didn't know all that, but I'm being asked, you know, to go and, uh, so I remember at that time there was, uh, was the Trump Shuttle.

4:19:43 Speaker 5 The train.

4:19:44 Speaker 1 The days when Donald Trump made a, a, a shuttle plane.

4:19:47 Speaker 5 A plane.

4:19:47 Speaker 1 Plane. Uh, uh, it was like a airline. It was like a, a, a shuttle.

4:19:50 Speaker 5 Mm-hmm.

4:19:51 Speaker 1 And it's just funny because I, I remember it from then. It was like, uh, this is, uh-

4:19:55 Speaker 5 Trump Shuttle

4:19:55 Speaker 1 ... 40 years ago, you know. And I... So yeah, I got a ticket. I got onto the Trump Shuttle, and I go to Washington. And, uh, it could be I got the papers over there. I'm not sure. It could be I got the papers over there, and I had them signed. I think I went to another office. I don't know if it was the other side or not. It could be it was.

4:20:16 Speaker 5 Well, Nat Lewin is in-

4:20:17 Speaker 1 Nat Lewin was there. I was, I-- That I was there, but, but I think I went to another office, and maybe it was the other side. I just don't remember right now. And a kid said, I'm coming back. I'm on the plane. The envelope is open. They don't seal it. There was, you know, there was signed papers. I got this one to sign, that one to sign, you know. I'm sitting on the plane And again, you know, you're a bachur, you know. You, on one hand, I have trepidation, on the other hand, like... So like, you know, no one asked me to keep it quiet, so I, I scanned it, you know. I, uh... And it was like almost like I'm looking and I'm not looking. It's kind of, you know. But I, I'm saying this because I, I do wanna share something. There was one thing that I remember, and, uh, you know, Hashem should help, uh, because I, you know, I'm-- that it's correct because I, I remember it vividly and, and it basically said that, that as part of the settlement, that any, any, uh, anything of any ksav or any sefer or any- anything of a Rebbe and a Rebbetzin or anything with sentimental value belongs to... I don't remember the Lashon, but probably Agudas Yisroel Chabad. Like, that was like one of the languages. I remember sitting on the plane and like I, I couldn't believe it, you know, because all these years while we were sitting down, lots of

4:21:47 Speaker 1 everything else, we knew it was only about the seforim. And we heard the Rebbe speak about the chfeitzim, and I always wondered deep inside, I was scared, like, what's, what about the furniture? What about the things? What the... The Rebbe's saying that that's Mamash Etzem of the Rebbeim and, and then, uh... So no one said anything. We didn't know what's gonna happen. And I'm sitting here on the plane, and I see it black on white.

4:22:10 Speaker 5 The Dan Notz.

4:22:10 Speaker 1 That the Dan Notz, you know, that everything. But of course, for years, I, I never told anyone what I saw. I didn't, I, I didn't speak about it for many years. And I put it back in the envelope or whatever, and I, and I gave it in. But this, this is one point that I think is, is correct to share, and it's okay to share, and, uh, other things is sh'eg, I'm saying I, I, I feel this is a, a, a, a correct thing. And, um, the kid said, "Then I knew that there was real Didan Natsach." And, and actually, they went into the Rebbe. That was mamish then. They went into the Rebbe and they... You know the story they had. They told the Rebbe and the Rebbe, they said, th-this I saw somewhere that the Rebbe like straightened out his, like, kaveyachol, his, whatever, his back, you know. And the Rebbe said, like, uh, like, like, like asked the question that meant something like, "It's all, it's all done?" 'Cause that settled everyth- like that was over. Everything was over.

4:23:07 Speaker 5 I think part of the settlement was that-

4:23:09 Speaker 1 Was the case

4:23:09 Speaker 5 ... they no longer do anything.

4:23:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. They say-- I, I don't remember seeing that, but they say about writing articles. Myself, I, I don't know. Yeah.

4:23:17 Speaker 5 That's what they say.

4:23:18 Speaker 1 It's possible. This paragraph I'm telling you, then, you know. And the Rebbe, and, and, and the Rebbe then said, "It's the kemizon tayler."

4:23:26 Speaker 5 Tayler.

4:23:26 Speaker 1 Not... So that was-

4:23:29 Speaker 5 Now that we c- now, now the Rebbe could say tayler, which also gives you a window into what was-

4:23:36 Speaker 1 What was before.

4:23:37 Speaker 5 Yeah. What was before.

4:23:39 Speaker 1 So I just wanna-

4:23:41 Speaker 5 So what, so, so what, so it's Arba'im Shana. What is the takeaway, bechsidim, today as we approach Arba'im Shana?

4:23:54 Speaker 1 Listen, I'm not gonna share with you now what I thought as a bachur, and now I'm just gonna tell you what I think. I can't tell, I can't tell you what's the correct thing, but I can tell you what I think. Um, look, one, one of the things when we were bachurim, the Rebbe, the Rebbe spoke Pashet from his heart about every Sefer and the Levaya from Schwer and, and, and, and so over and over again now it's Hu Bachayim, and by doing that, you're basically saying it's not Bachayim and it's a sheker. It's the Rebbe's with us and all that. As bachurim, and I, I think I speak for most of the bachurim, the parts that it was so painful that the Rebbe was saying that a Sefer, how much, how important it is and, uh, and taking it away from him, and it's a Levaya, that talked to us. When the Rebbe was saying that Hu Bachayim and the Re- the, you know, we, we took it. It was ruchniusdik a vorter. It was, you know, we, we have the Rebbe. You know, what-- It was, it, you know, we have the Rebbe. That's the Hu Bachayim. You know, like it w- it wasn't-- That wasn't, like, in our bones. That wasn't in our, in our, uh-- That wasn't the main thing we were thinking about, you know. And y- like I was talking till now, you didn't hear that from me because, because that wasn't, like, what was in our mind at

4:25:13 Speaker 1 that time. But the Rebbe, over those years, spent so much time talking about how the Rebbe is with us and how the life of a tzadik is, is aveh and yireh, and that's the ruchniusdik life. And that's why if you b- if you understand that and if you believe that, then you know that he's really here, shtarkech bechay al na'yatim bechayei. And this is what so much of the Rebbe was even, like I said to you, Vayikra, I didn't even talk about it. The whole sicha about the Sefarim and the Chafetzim, everything. The idea that everything from the Rebbe is, is, is heilek and everything from the Rebbe is, is, is, is here and it's alive and that, and that the Rebbe is, is, is, is with us. So those were concepts the Rebbe was talking about, and at least for myself, but I know f- I heard this from others, it wasn't like a center focus to what they were th- what was bothering them at the time. After Gemilut Chassidim, so it was like a number of years after Gemilut Chassidim, and I realized, like, the Rebbe was-- The Rebbe, the Rebbe trained us. The Rebbe raised us. The Rebbe put into our psyche the whole idea. The Rebbe taught us what does it mean that ya'atem bechayei, that the... You know, we take for granted. Everyone knows after Gemilut Chassidim, everyone said the Rebbe's with us and the Moshiach itself to continue and, and the Rebbe's always with us. We think that

4:26:44 Speaker 1 that's a normal way of talking. It's not.

4:26:47 Speaker 5 Hmm.

4:26:48 Speaker 1 The Zohar said, ya'atem bechayei, but in all the generations, people knew. They quoted a Zohar, but they didn't really talk about it or look at it as a real thing. So how is it that Chabad, after Gemilut Chassidim, was able to look at it that way? It was because the Rebbe, for all those years, was drilling into us and teaching us that the ruchnius is real and the Rebbe is real. And the Rebbe's with us, so later, even though for many, for all of us it was a struggle, but it was, it was, it was a language that we were able to understand. So the, the way, the way I look at it is that the, the, the, the, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the whole-- those-- the whole battle that the Rebbe was battling, Cheit Tevoes. What-- Let, let me first say before I... What I can say for sure is that the whole inyan of what the Rebbe taught us, if not for that time that the Rebbe drilled into us and that we were involved and, and we, and we understood it and saw it, and at least to, to where our capacity is, the Rebbe Pashet gave us the ability to be able to have a connection today, an ability for the-- for us to live with the Rebbe. It's like, you know, someone said to me that, that the Re- the Rebbe's battle of Cheit Tevoes was, was, was more for now than for then. You look at, you

4:28:24 Speaker 1 look at our children, you look at our grandchildren and, and, and you say, "How do they have the Rebbe?" So in other words, the Rebbe was willing to take all the Agmas Nefesh and go on Mesirus Nefesh. The Rebbe knew that it would be very difficult for Lubavitch and very difficult for, for a lot of things. And the Rebbe was... What was the Rebbe fighting for? The Rebbe was fighting for to know that our Rebbe is, is, is, is, is with us, and he's alive, and we, and we have the Rebbe, and therefore his sefers are safer, and therefore Amoysif. How do we know that Shlichas is Shlichas today, that Amoysif is Amoysif, and that everything is so important that you can't change the way the Rebbe made it? All these things we take for granted. It was because the Rebbe drilled it into us. So the-- So, you know, Cheit Teves, in a way, the way I look at it, is it was a gift that the Rebbe gave i-in a way more for the next generation. You know, I, I, I tell my children, you know, I say, "You think Cheit Teves is a, is a, is a, is a, is a Yom Tov because we were there and we experienced Cheit Teves. For the-- for you, it's, it's the real Yom Tov." This is the day that the Rebbe gave you the Rebbe. The Rebbe gave the ability to Chassidim to be able to have the Rebbe today. So i-in my thought,

4:29:53 Speaker 1 again, that's not what I thought as a bachur. As a bachur, it wasn't mechala on the agenda. We didn't think about those sichas. I'm talking about the Hu Bachayim part.

4:30:03 Speaker 5 Yeah.

4:30:04 Speaker 1 But today, I would say that Cheit Teves has to be, is the Yom Tov of the, of this generation. If you wanna have a day to celebrate that we have a Rebbe and that we can live with the Rebbe, and we can be on shlichas of the Rebbe and everything, all, everything, it's because of the Rebbe insisting and fighting for it and giving it to us and training us, bagashmis, teaching us. If we didn't have the language, we wouldn't know how to be past us. We wouldn't know how to, how to, how to eat it 'cause no previous generation spoke about this Zohar i-in a tangible way.

4:30:42 Speaker 5 Right.

4:30:42 Speaker 1 By us, it was tangible. So in my thinking, when it comes to Cheit Teves, Arba'im Shana, you know, someone told me I have to check into it. Someone told me that the Rebbe spoke after the Six-Day War, that the Rebbe said a, a vort that it was Arba'im Shana from, from Yubis Tammuz, and that, again, I, I have to look in the sicha, so I, I don't even know, but the nekuda was that somehow the, the, the victory of the Six-Day War that, that, that there was somehow from the geulah of the Friedmanic Rebbe had an impact now because it's Arba'im Shana. Someone just told this to me. I, I-- We have to double-check that if it's true. I was speaking to someone there at Yisroel, and he, he tells it to me just yesterday. So imagine it's forty years from Cheit Teves, a day that was on the smallest count, five years part of the whole Nesius, everything that was going on. And by the way, during those five years, it was building, it was growing. There was dollars and thousands of people coming from all over. This was all happening while these sutras were going on. That's when it-- Y-you-- When you look at Tof Shen Nun, the end of Tof Shen Nun compared to, to Mevov, it was Noch Peterburg. It was on a whole different level. People coming to the Rebbe from all over the world. The Rebbe was known all over the world. There was, there was shluchim a lot

4:32:09 Speaker 1 more. There was-- It was a different world five years later. Cheit Teves is, is, is, is not just a, a, a year of, of the Rebbe's Nesius. Cheit Teves, some people tell you, of course, that Cheit Teves started, uh, even before the Rebbe's Nesius, which is true. But I'm talking about if, first of all, if you're someone that you care about the Rebbe and you wanna scout, you wanna know, uh, what was important to the Rebbe and you wanna live with what the Rebbe taught us, this whole tkufa, this whole story, this whole everything is part and parcel of, of who we are. And together with that, that's Arba'im Shana. We know the Rebbe, you know, always the special dates in Arba'im Shana.

4:32:49 Speaker 5 Okay.

4:32:49 Speaker 1 I did the Rebbe. I'm not the, you know, gonna tell you now what the-- Whatever it is, we have to find ways, number one, to educate the children and educate our friends what happened. And, and, uh, that's the reason I agreed to come, to come here. I, I wouldn't have done it otherwise. We have to share. We have to share with, with, you know, with, with, with everybody. You know, we're, we're coming together, uh, this and, and, uh, we're coming together tomorrow. Uh, our whole class that was then in all the Torah, Mem Zain. Today, everyone's, uh, close to sixty. We're coming together for a Shabbos by the oil, the covered Cheit Teves Arba'im Shana, and we're gonna spend the time to, to learn and fabrang all about, uh, uh, Cheit Teves. And the idea is that then we should go out and share it, share it with each other. Chassidim share it with each other.

4:33:53 Speaker 5 And the Skarim leads to Venasim.

4:33:57 Speaker 1 And I think that, that you're asking me, you know, what is Cheit Teves today? Cheit Teves today is, is, is, it's the Yom Tov of our generation. The Yom Tov of our generation that we have a Rebbe, that we have the Rebbe, and that we can be on shlichas, that we can do what the Rebbe wants, that we could take seriously the Svarim, the Sichas, and we know that it still continues. This is Cheit Teves, and we have to, we have to, uh, im yirtze Hashem, we're, we're coming to big days, and we can, and we can celebrate it properly. Celebrate it properly with learning Torah and doing mitzvahs. The Rebbe always said it has to be Torah, tefillah, tzedakah. It has to be in the proper way. You know, in the proper way, it has to be, but it's still a celebration.

4:34:46 Speaker 5 Okay. Rabbi Shemtov, this has been great, and Be'ezras Hashem, this will help in the Niskarim and in the Nasim. And, uh, we should celebrate Cheit Teves properly and know who we are and who the Rebbe is.

4:35:02 Speaker 1 Let me just say one thing. Um, I, I, I just wanna mention, you know, I was asked to speak, you know, my experience, my personal experience, how it was as a bachur at that time. I tried to dobut I just want to say that the details that I said, the dates, the, the sifres, that it's a lot of information and, uh, and I-- you shouldn't quote. You know, you-- it shouldn't be like, "Oh, you know, we know now the fact." You know, I tried to do my best to share the way-

4:35:32 Speaker 5 It's just the, um-

4:35:33 Speaker 1 The, the way it's, um, in my memory. And for the real story, there's a safer,