Ep. 49: What Was The Rebbe’s Childhood Like with Nuchie Schapiro

00:00 Speaker 1 The Rebbe immediately stands up and greets his Melamed. Reb Zalman would not, and nor would any Hasid sit during the Yechidas. It's not appropriate to sit in front of the Rebbe. The Rebbe would not sit in front of his Melamed. So they both stood. Yechidas went on for somewhere about forty-five minutes, and they were standing the entire time.

00:27 Speaker 2 The name of this podcast is Among Chassidim. If you know anything about the Chassidish way of life, you know that one of our greatest pillars and the best way that we can give the Rebbe Nachas is how we show up for one another. We celebrate each other's simchas, and just as importantly, we stand shoulder to shoulder in times of need. Right now, there's a Mishpacha, a beautiful family of Chassidim that needs our immediate support and chizuk during a time of unimaginable pain and sorrow. A dedicated shlucha, a devoted mother, just passed away at the young age of forty-seven. For years, she battled a terrible machlah heroically, full of unwavering emunah. Friends of the family have come together to launch a very critical campaign. It's important to support them financially during this devastating transition. But perhaps even more importantly, it is to let the Reiter family know that they are not alone. We want them to feel the Chassidim all over the world are standing right beside them, wrapping them in love and support. Please open up your hearts and be as generous as you can. Let's show them that we are a taka among Chassidim, and that we take care of our own in their deepest moments of grief. Please, right now, log on to charity.com/reiterfamilyfund. That's charity.com/R-E-I-T-E-R family fund. Let's be there for the Reiter family with brachos of a kitzo veran, nshehchnia afar, a mashiach now. I'm Yossi Kamen. Welcome to Among Chassidim by Der Her, an ongoing farbrengen about life as a

02:23 Speaker 2 Chassid, our vibrant connection with the Rebbe, and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. Shalom Aleichem, Nuchi, how are you?

02:35 Speaker 1 Baruch Hashem. How are you, Yossi? It's great to be here.

02:37 Speaker 2 Baruch Hashem. Thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited to talk. And the, uh, topic that I wanna discuss with you is you have published a new book, and I'll allow you to tell us the title of the book. And in it, you discuss the entire history of... Your name is Nuchi Shapiro, so of the Shapiro family dynasty, whatever you wanna call it. But it really has a lot more than just their story. It's a story of Lubavitch. It's a Lubavitch Mishpacha going way back, and there's a lot of rich history that's regarding that, your family, but regarding Lubavitch in general, and I'm very excited to hear about it. And my first question is, what was the inspiration for this? How did it begin? What was the process to get it done before we get into the content of the book itself?

03:30 Speaker 1 Oh, that's a great question. Um, when somebody doesn't know something, you get highly motivated to figure it out. So actually, my lack of knowledge is what really propelled me to go seek it out, learn it, and ultimately publish it. So just to take you back a tiny bit, bachlal, this is a little bit of a separate component, but bachlal, I've always had an incredibly deep appreciation for Jewish history, Lubavitch history. Um, I remember when I was really young, when Shmol Kunda put out When Zeidy Was Young, it was, it was wonderful. It was actually the first time that there was a relatable piece of history because it wasn't something from thousands or hundreds of years ago, and it mamash felt relatable. And I remember really, really enjoying that because I felt it was the first time that it was tangible. Um, I'm sure all of your, uh, viewers and listeners know that we've heard hundreds of stories about the Krechme, and the Parets, and the Balagola, and, uh, there's always a bandit and a dungeon. And it just-- It was a combination of, of, you know, lack of relatability, but also frightfulness, like, "Oh, my God, somebody again is about to get murdered. Someone's about to become homeless." I always had a lot of almost, like, stress because you don't really know what's going on. We're in this horrible, horrible prison, you know, Eastern European world, which ironically is a hundred percent true, and it-- we go into it in the book, that none of

04:55 Speaker 1 that was imagination. The point is that when I finally remember, year-- we're talking years ago, we're talking about, uh, I don't know, the early nineties. So when Shmol Kunda came out When Zeidy Was Young, it mamash felt. And I, and I remember that being the first, like, okay, what did, what did this do for me? It enabled me to have a sense of where we're from. Now, obviously, that was at a very young age. Fast-forward, uh, you know, years later, um, I, uh, I think it was my first or second day in Beis Medrash in Morristown. And, uh, you went to Morristown as well, right?

05:24 Speaker 2 Yes.

05:25 Speaker 1 So perhaps things have changed because at the time, when you walk up to the third floor where the zal is, right next to the zal, there is a library, but right between, there's a tiny closet. I remember passing by wondering, a minute, the zal's to the right, the library's to the left, what's this mystery door? And I knock at the door, and it's, it's probably once upon a time, a janitor's closet. It's the tape library, which I can't imagine exists anymore. Anyway, in the tape library, of-- I get the catalog, and I start perusing, and I see there's a Rabble-- Rabbi Berel Wein, who has mamash, a thorough A to Z on Jewish history, which I've never seen anything of that nature whatsoever. And I thoroughly enjoyed that. I was in Morristown, uh, for two years, so I slowly, slowly went through hundreds of, of, uh, Rabbi Wein's tapes. And then, uh, fortunately, when I went to, uh, Miami the next year, they also had it in their tape library. So again, a bit of a, a bit of an intro that I've always had a deep appreciation because essentially it shapes where we are today. There is no consideration that what happened yesterday is, is not s-- is, is of no concern to me, and obviously not just me as a person with appreciation for the past and how it shapes the, how it shapes where we are today. That's bachlal, you know, our people, and the way we, and the way... Obviously, Torah

06:42 Speaker 1 is not a history book. Of course, that's obvious. I'm not saying that. But the way the past shapes us who we are today is obviously a big foundational part of, of Yiddishkeit. So I just wanted to give you that sort of like independent piece that I always had a deep appreciation, um, for Jewish history bachlal and Lubavitch history. Fine. So fast-forward, and the, the fact that I didn't know anything about my family history is, uh, is a little bit unique because it's very common. You as a father and the listeners out there, you know, parents tell their children. It's that pashtit. You tell your children the stories of your parents and grandparents, and that's, uh, that's commonplace in, in, in the world. In my case, it was a tad different because unfortunately, my father was niftar when I was extremely young. Uh, and, uh, and we'll get into him a little bit later. But my father-

07:31 Speaker 3 There's a whole chapter in the book about your father, right? Or multiple chapters.

07:35 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. There's a whole, uh, section.

07:37 Speaker 3 Section. Section. Yeah.

07:39 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. So my father, uh, I guess I'll jump to the end, but we'll get more detailed later. But my father passed away when he was forty-one years old, and I was-

07:48 Speaker 3 Your father is, uh, Rav Itche Shapiro, who was the, who was known to many as the principal of Alle Terra, right? That, that's, uh, what he's famous for in, in Crown Heights.

07:58 Speaker 1 That, that's right. He was, he was the assistant principal in Alle Terra. Well, he originally started out first as a, as a melamed, as a rebbe, and then, uh, he then became the assistant principal. So by the time he passed away in Taf Shin Nun, um, he was the assistant principal, and I was six years old. So you could imagine being six years old, um, what that's like. But as it pertains to, uh, this part of the discussion, there were, there were no stories. It was a drastic void. I knew my Zayde, Rav Lippa Shapiro, um, was a very holy and special person, so I knew, you know, he just knows certain things and pick up on certain things. I knew that my Eltazeide, my namesake, Nachum Shapiro, was incredible, and, uh, my other Eltazeide, Reb Shneur Zalman of Lynken, the Rebbe's childhood melamed. And so some of these things were extremely vague, and, uh, quite simply 'cause the void was there. Independently, independently, I always appreciated and loved bumping into people who would say something like, "Oh, I remember your father. He was my melamed in Alle Terra," or, "He was my principal in Alle Terra," or maybe a community member 'cause he was extremely active in the Crown Heights community, um, doing amazing, amazing things for people, you know, shtilerheit, um, making sure to retain their dignity. So it would be these bump-ins every once in a while where I would get these thirty-second golden nuggets. And quite frankly, um, those thirty-second nuggets

09:31 Speaker 1 honestly brought him back to life. It, uh, brought him back to life for thirty seconds. So over the years, between these two needs that I had, I decided, "Okay, I'm gonna write a book on my father." And but my father's story is my story. But the story's bigger. It's his parents, his greatpar- his grandparents, et cetera. So my father's story, hence my family's story, is really one, one large unit. So between wanting to write a book about my father and wanting to know more about my family history, and my extreme appreciation and love for Jewish history and Lubavitch history bachlal, that definitely, uh, that was sort of the, the, that was what propelled me. So the actual first action taken was in, uh, 2010. Um, we were sitting in Crown Heights for my fa- one of, for my father's yahrtzeit. I think it was a nineteenth or nineteenth or twentieth yahrtzeit. And my uncles and aunts were there. And it's a yahrtzeit farbrengen, which anyone who's been to a yahrtzeit farbrengen, I'm sure many people have, it's not the easiest farbrengen. So I basically took out my, uh, well, at the time, a Stama iPhone 3, and, um, I said, "I know str- I know very little about the family history. Please share with me." So I put the phone down, hit record, and it was just phenomenal. So all my uncles and aunts, you know, chiming in, uh, throwing in stories, episodes, events, and this is going back to 2010. That was the first,

11:05 Speaker 1 let's call it interview, that I conducted. I wouldn't say in that exact moment I told myself, "Oh, I'm, I'm gonna write a book." Uh, but I definitely, um, started the journey, and that was the first piece. And then I slowly started collecting stories and documents and photos and, and, uh, yeah, so slowly, slowly over the years, um, as it built. You know, it's, it's obviously many, many years, and, um, I hope I answered your question.

11:32 Speaker 3 You did a very good job. Um, so the final product, you wanna tell us the title of the book?

11:38 Speaker 1 Sure. The title of the book is the entire book, meaning, uh, the, the title of the book is, is mom is the summary of what everything is inside. It's called Legacy of Resilience: The Remarkable Journey of the Shapiro Family. And, uh, if you read the book for five minutes, you'll chap why it's called Legacy of Resilience, because that is exactly what it is, the unbelievable capacity to maintain their Yiddishkeit and their Hasidishkeit, and even bagashmia staying alive. Is really what it is. And the cover itself, um, exemplifies that as well. I have a copy right here, so I know most people are listening. But basically, as you can see, it's a dark, dark, foggy, uh, forest, but the brightness and the light of the Torah, um, on the horizon is what was their, their guiding, their guiding, their guiding life, their guiding principle.

12:28 Speaker 3 Okay. So I want to get to the content of the book. And, uh, but before that, from my, uh, perusing through the book and from our conversations, you really, uh, come out with that it's not only the, the legacy and the story of the Shapiro family, but what you have here is the story of Lubavitch Hasidim and the story of the Jews in Eastern Europe and this, and, and the way a Hasid behaves and the way a Hasid lives day-to-day. So there's a tremendous benefit, uh, for the broader community. In general, I find, I think it's a benefit to know about people in general. There's a lot of books now being published, the stories of Hasidim. The Rebbe encouraged very much Hasidim to write down their zechraynus and their memories and memoirs, et cetera. But beyond that, I mean, there's a-- the, the reason for that is because it's not just about an individual, it's about what that, what those individuals represented and the background of, of, you know, their lives that they were living, right? Does that, does that make sense?

13:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Just to, just to, uh, clar- uh, add to that point in my, in my preface, uh, where I talk about, you know, why I wrote the book, but I, I also bring a phenomenal letter from the Friediker Rebbe while the Friediker Rebbe was in, uh, Otwock in, uh, I believe it was '34. Specifically, this is already back then, back still in, when the Friediker Rebbe was still in Poland, um, specifying, and I have excerpts of that letter, how imperative it is to retell the stories of great Hasidim, let alone we're not talking about, oh, years later in the safety of America. We're still talking about in the 1930s, as you could imagine.

14:01 Speaker 3 Right.

14:01 Speaker 1 Um, and yeah, absolutely. The b- the book, the protagonist may be the Shapiro family. So it, it's, it's about these individuals, but it's str- it's absolutely not solely about them. Um, it is the story of Lubavitch of the last 100 years. It's basically the story of Lubavitch going from the mid 1800s pretty much to the present or roughly to the year 2000. And while, uh, there are se- while there are many, let's call it major characters, like I said, uh, there's Reb Zalman Vilenkin, there's Reb Zvi Melamed, Reb Lipa Shapiro, my father, and many, many, many, many other Hasidim. Because, and I'm kind of only like, I guess, materializing this later, because I have an incredible appreciation for Jewish history, it was imperative that the reader see the broader picture every step along the way. So if I'm gonna talk about a town, a city, an event, a place, it's not just about this person and this is the train he took. I mean, it, it's that too, but what is going on for Yidden in the country at that time? I'll give you a tiny example that really is imperative to see how much broader this is, this Lubavitch story than just a... And I'm not minimizing it. I'm very proud of it being a Shapiro family story, but it's not exclusively. Limushul, I, uh, I could imagine most of the viewers are familiar with the popular episode of The Great Escape, where many, many, many Lubavitch Hasidim had the miraculous escape from Russia

15:23 Speaker 1 right after the war. I mean, I'll leave every detail. You could check it out on the book. But right after the war, there was a miraculous escape, and they ultimately ended up in a displaced persons camp, um, overwhelmingly in a, in a camp called, uh, uh, Pucking, which is in Germany, right over the border, um, outside of Austria.

15:39 Speaker 3 Well, Pucking is the place.

15:42 Speaker 1 Pucking is the name of the city.

15:43 Speaker 3 Yeah. City, yeah.

15:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, Pucking is the name of the city. It's about, uh, Be'erach, I think, uh, it's not terribly far from Munich. I mean, not walking distance, but that'd be the nearest major city would be Munich, but it's short, it's just over the Austrian border, um, into Germany. When I write about that chapter, obviously, uh, you know, you-- So the whole book is designed very, um, very comfortably. So you read the chapter, and then when the chapter is done, there's a tremendous amount of photos and documents that, uh, correspond to everything you just read. There's over 550 photos and documents in the book. I know, I know a lot of people today, they're more into audiobook or like, uh, you know, "I went to L.A. today, I'm not a big reader." You know, I've heard, I've heard it all. I've heard it all. But, uh, this is extremely user-friendly in that regard 'cause my, my main mission was that it should feel like an immersive experience. So Limushul, that chapter on Pucking, you get an incredible feeling for everything what it was like to-- There's, there's copies of, like, the cards you get. Like, when you come in, you have to-- You're a nobody. You don't even have documentation. You don't exist. So your registration card. What about your ksubah? You have to shred your ksubah to hide your Russian identity. Chas v'Shalom, someone finds out you're Russian, you are in severe trouble. So they quickly have to run to the Rav, and you see the day

16:51 Speaker 1 of arrival was actually the next day 'cause I guess maybe they came in at four o'clock in the morning. Then they run straight to the Rav and get a ksubah de'er kasah, and then, which a replacement ksubah. And then it goes on and on into the people that visited and, and all the other events. You know, there are shags visit, the setup of Pimchet Mimim, the sfarim that they used, the setup of the chadarim, the infrastructure, uh, kavyachol like a kollel. Uh, they were training people to be shochtim. The point is that it's way beyond, way beyond just, um, um, the family. It is absolutely the, the, the history of Lubavitch, and you see what Lubavitch Hasidim went through in that time. Uh, there's actually a fascinating letter from, from the head of Vaad Hatzalah who sent it to the United States, and it specifically talks about some of the ins and outs. I almost wanna l- It's, it's, it's so juicy that I couldn't edit it down. Obviously, there's a lot of things that didn't make the book, but that letter is so gishmak that I ended up putting in the whole letter. It's actually a four-and-a-half-page letter. It's one of the biggest documents in the entire book, which Baruch Hashem, my intuition was correct. A lot of people gave me feedback like, "Wow." And it's a lot of the interactions between the people within the camp in real time. 'Cause the motive at the time was that he send a letter to the

18:05 Speaker 1 rabbis in the United States explaining what's going on, and we need your help. That was the, the premise for the Vaad Hatzalah letter. I think it was, uh, dear leaders of, of, of, uh, dear Jewish leaders of the United States of America, epes hazoi. Um, so I only use that chapter as an example, and then, of course, you have visits from Rabbi Laser Silver, and, uh, you see Rabbi Binyamin Gardetsky there as well, and, um, and then there's a nearby visit from, um, Eisenhower. So the point is that you definitely get to see the bigger picture. And that-- I just use that as a marshal because the chapter I'm talking is incredibly visually immersive.

18:40 Speaker 3 I was gonna say that when I was looking at the book, I was really blown away specifically about that chapter with all the photographs and documents you had on pocking. I mean, for... Are, are any of them... Are they, are they newly released? 'Cause I-for me, I didn't-- I haven't seen, I would say, many of them.

18:58 Speaker 1 So some. I'll explain. So think about, think about this. Imagine you're operating Yad Vashem, or you're operating the, the DC, uh, Washington, the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC, or the Do-Joint Distribution Committee or, or YIVO, any of these massive historical, uh, uh, institutions. And comes COVID, 'cause I started this, what, you know, prior to COVID. Again, this was a passion project, chiseling away for many, many years. But during COVID, naturally, massive segments of these organizations had to shut down, so the museums weren't open, behulo. They really took advantage of the time 'cause they have everybody on payroll. They're like, "Okay, let's archive stuff." So they definitely... I, I, uh, was there at a fortunate time where they definitely started to archive a tremendous amount of things that were inaccessible, um, uh, prior to that. Um, additionally, so that's, that's definitely true why you'll see some stuff that... And, and, and it's credited. If you look in the back, I have five hundred and fifty documents. Every single document is sourced. You, you'll know exactly where I got every single one. Obviously, I wanted to give, uh, karas atayef to the, to the origin, but also for yourself and a research perspective, like where, where did this come from? And some of it was from... Those are some of the major institutions. I mean, there's more major institutions, and they're all thanked in the acknowledgement section, but some of them came from extremely obscure places. I mean, I even met third and fourth cousin Valenkins from

20:19 Speaker 1 Yekatrinislav who still live there, uh, to, in Dnepr, and they provided photos for me that, uh, were, were unbelievable gold. So yeah, it's, it's basically almost two books. There's the written component, and then there's the visuals.

20:33 Speaker 3 Amazing. Okay. So I think we got through, uh, our conversation. We got a little bit or of the background of what it takes, the labor of love that went into it. So maybe you can, uh, start, uh, storytelling and tell us a little bit. Maybe we'll go chronologically, you know, how it all began, and go through the generations.

20:54 Speaker 1 So, so the format, because the central figures are my grandparents. My grandfather, his name was Reb Lipa Shapiro, and my bubbe, her name was Chana Valenkin. Obviously, became Shapiro. So they are the central figures. So the way to simplify it was the first two chapters, I went back into, uh, Lipa Shapiro's origin, and then, um, like where he comes from, his parents, his grandparents, behulo. And then at the end of chapter two, he's a bachur. Starts chapter three, it goes back to where the Valenkin family originates, and then chapter four. And then at the end of chapter four, Chana Valenkin as well is, um, of marriageable age. Chapter five is when they meet, and that's when the story, uh, so to speak, continues with them both as a, as a unit. So the Shapiro family, um, interestingly, does not come from some of the famous Shapiros. Uh, I think I've res-- I got this my entire life. Not, not in Lubavitch, 'cause in Lubavitch, frankly, there are not a lot. There aren't, there... It's, it's a very popular Jewish name, but in Lubavitch, there are very, very few Shapiros. Um, we are, you know, we're not a... I mean, we're a large family, but we're not the only ones, but almost the only ones, you know, if you almost have to do it by number. So but in the Velt, I would-- I, I remember over the years hearing, "Oh, Shapiro, are you a Cayen?" I'm like, "I, I, why would I... No, I don't

22:19 Speaker 1 know why that would be." Um, Galiamukoys, and you have other, you know, uh, Meir Shapiro. So we know that the Sh-

22:27 Speaker 3 Shapiro is a place.

22:28 Speaker 1 Okay.

22:29 Speaker 3 Speyer, right?

22:30 Speaker 1 Correct. But that, that is correct, and I, I note that in the book. So, so we have no-- I could not find any evidence that we come from Shpiers. Speyers, which is, uh, Yiddish was Shpiers. So it was a city in Germany that Neve was, uh, uh, mostly, most of the people were killed, and the few survivors took the name Shpiers, and a twist on it was like Shapiro is like you are from the survivors of that city. Sekenzin, I don't know. Um, in an interview... By the way, I have to pause for an incredible thank you to Mrs. Strauss. I don't know her first name. Some people call her Bubby Strauss, but I'm sure Bubby's not her real name. She is a Beis Rivkah teacher for many, many years. Many years. And she, um, has a project for her students, a social studies project that they have to interview, they have to interview their grandparents. And, um, unbelievable foresight, phenomenal foresight, and that was incredible resource for me because think about it. You're trying to collect information on someone who's already passed. So one of the best ways to do it is they went to all the einiklach, uh, specifically the girls, 'cause, um, I don't believe Olatora had this project, but if they did, I, I missed it. And-

23:40 Speaker 3 Doesn't sound like Olatora.

23:42 Speaker 1 Right.

23:42 Speaker 3 Is that, is that when they made a scrap-- everyone makes a scrapbook? Is that that project?

23:46 Speaker 1 Correct. And you're-- and, and it's very flexible. You're correct. So many make scrapbooks with photos and documents.

23:50 Speaker 3 I think I, I, I have a sister who was in Beis Rivkah. I think I remember this project.

23:53 Speaker 1 It's golden. And, and, and Mrs. Strauss is mamish a genius because when I was collecting information, uh, and I got a lot from many, many sources, that was golden. So m-- And I thank all of my, uh, cousins who provided their, their projects to me, and, um, they're all in the acknowledgement section, but that was, that was unbelievable. So there's several... Some people did it scrapbook style, like my wife still has hers from Beis Rivkah from her family. Um, later on, the teachers did it in Q&A format because what happened was you have a big sister, you reprint your big sister's project, and so they wanted it to be novel. So they switched it over the years from, you know, a written essay to, uh, to here's a, you know, you, you have to submit a bunch of questions. I think one of the funniest ones, because I found one of my, my zeide's later interviews with a cousin, uh, it actually, this part didn't make it into the book 'cause I'll be honest, I had nowhere to insert it 'cause the interview, I used the material. I, I used the material, and I just had nowhere to insert the following. So one of the questions were, "What was the cost of Coca-Cola when you were a child?" So, um, I, uh, you know, my zeide obviously, uh, had a field day with that one. Coca-Cola. If we're lucky, we had a potato. Um, because they had to, 'cause every cousin was just sharing and

25:09 Speaker 1 recycling, and no one was per... But I, this is the part I'm, I'm clarifying why the... So A, massive akarot safe to her. So one, one of those interviews, one of the children said, one of the einikelach said, "Where, where's the Shapiro name? How far does it go back?" And my Zayd Lipa said, "It goes back as far as I know. It goes back as far as I know." So meaning to say we were always Shapiro. It's very common that people change their names, countries. It's extremely normative, extremely normative. Shortened names, different names. Um, in our case, uh, to our, to our knowledge, uh, it's always been Shapiro, but not related to some of the, uh, famous Shapiros. Um, so my Zayd Lipa, um, was born in a town called Karlevich. Karlevich or Kralovitz, but Karlevich was like the Yiddish way to pronounce it. Which is kind of fun, by the way, because going through all of Russia, it's very beautiful to see, and it's also very insightful how Yidden always had their own nicknames to their towns. So I, I laughed at this later to myself when people say Crown Heights, and I thought, "You know what? Glad that that's the way it was."

26:17 Speaker 4 Yeah.

26:18 Speaker 1 It was always like that. Uh, so-

26:20 Speaker 4 It's not only that, Jews had their own geography in general.

26:23 Speaker 1 Right.

26:24 Speaker 4 If, if you're from Lita, what, what, what's Lita?

26:26 Speaker 1 Right.

26:26 Speaker 4 You know, by the time that they were saying that, they might have been Poland, they might have been this, might have been that. But Jews had their own geography j- also.

26:33 Speaker 1 Right. Right. We lived, we lived in our own universe of, of safety-wise ver- Lemoshel Lemberg. It wasn't Lemberg anymore, but Lemberg because it's, it was originally, uh, German-sounding, which is obviously close to Yiddish. So the Yidden always called it Lemberg even after it switched to Lvov, which is the border city between, um, um, Sovi- the Soviet Union, um, and Poland, which we'll, uh, we'll get to later. So, um, my Zayd Lipa was born in, in Karlevich. His father, Nachum, who's my namesake as well, was also born there. His father was Yehuda Leib, came originally from Minsk. He was not a Lubavitcher. Um, his mechutan, Hesha Dabrowski, brought him close to, um, Lubavitch. Now, when I say Hesha Dabrowski, I know the average listener thinks, "Oh, yeah, the writer. He was niftar maybe ten, 15 years ago." Not him. His namesake. So, uh-

27:20 Speaker 4 Mm-hmm

27:20 Speaker 1 ... as you can imagine, if you just follow the year line, the, the, the, the, the Hesha Dabrows- the Hesha Dabrowski that you're thinking of, we're not referring to him. His namesake was a mechutan to Yehuda Leib Shapiro. And he is-- And they moved to Karlevich, and he s- I guess you could say sort of became close to, to Lubavitch. Um, his kids, he had nine children. One of them was which my namesake, uh, Nachum Shapiro. Um, it's a little bit unclear if the boys, there were five boys, if they all went to Temchetimim. That part's a tad unclear. But it is very clear that essentially all his nine kids were Lubavitch, one of which was my great-grandfather, and, uh, Nachum, and then Nachum had-

27:58 Speaker 4 Your great-grandfather went to Temchetim?

28:00 Speaker 1 It's, it's a little bit unclear.

28:02 Speaker 4 You don't know.

28:02 Speaker 1 It's-- Right.

28:03 Speaker 4 Okay.

28:03 Speaker 1 It's a little bit unclear. I mean, it's extremely clear from... I have a, I have a pan. Let's put it this way. So I'll tell you what I do have. I have a pan that he sent to Fidiker Rebbe in 1934. It's in the book. It's beautifully translated perfectly into English. There's also a lot of, a lot of footnotes because some of it had to be coded. You couldn't just freely write a letter. We, uh, it's... I, I'm not trying to sound like, "Oh, you have no idea what it was like," but it's true.

28:31 Speaker 4 The Hila-- The Fidiker Rebbe's out of Russia at that point.

28:34 Speaker 1 Correct. So when you're writing your pan to Poland, it's still going through the postal service. So this pan that went to the Fidiker Rebbe, it had to be coded. So I, I have, uh, on this topic, I've, I've two. I have some panim from the Rebbe Shapiro, who was in Leningrad in the early '30s, and his panim were deeply coded, and I-- and thanks to the help of my, um, my uncles, um, helped me decode. You know, little-- the little ones were easy. Lemoshel, they referred to the Fidiker Rebbe as their father. They would never say Rebbe because it's, you know, it's too dangerous. So they would refer to him as father. Obviously, you had a lot of Yidden. We sadly know the Apseksia. I mean, I mean, that already was gone by about 1929. But nonetheless, we knew that they had easy access to translate your letter no matter what. If it was in Russian, Yiddish, or Yiddish, no problem. So anyway, in that, in that incredible pan, which is a masterful window into what was going on, you clearly see he's writing like a Hasid. So Nachum, uh, the closest I could get was documentation coming from him. So it appears that Yehuda Leib's children were all Lubavitch, uh, between how they, uh, lived their lives, who they married, all their grandkids. So it's just a little bit hard to tell because, because I wasn't there, so I'm just gonna feed off the documentation. So Nachum's letter, um, included a lot of beautiful

29:55 Speaker 1 things. One thing was very notable. So it, it, it almost may contradict everything that we think about the times. Not all, but some. So one of the things he mentions, he would love a bracha for his son, Lipa, who's of marriageable age, to find a shidduch. There's just one little problem. Can't find a Frum girl. There's just no Frum people around.

30:22 Speaker 4 Hmm.

30:22 Speaker 1 Where, where'd all the Frum people go? Very, you know, I, I, I'm no expert in the, uh, shidduch space. I, I don't know when people discuss shidduchim, if that's the number one hardship when trying to find a shidduch. Um, obviously, there's many, many things to deal with. But I don't think if you asked a Frum person today, are there, are there like, like... There's no more Frum people, right? There's a Haskalah, a massive wave, and they gobbled up everybody, and we're gone. So, um, anyway, that was a very, very insightful piece. Um, it's a longer pan, and it's very insightful. So Nachum, and I, I, I, I don't want the listeners to think for a second that I'm using this term lightly because I definitely know people, you know, Achrei Mos Kedoshim, people use terms lightly. He was mamish a baki b'Shas. Realistically. He momish sat and learned all day, and, uh, and that was his life, always learning. Um, he had a-- He was a bookkeeper, and, uh, when he wasn't working, he was learning, and he, uh, he, he very strongly made sure that his kids adapted that same thing. Another major thing that I found is there's a minig, Erev Pesach, to read... There's a letter, um, uh, from, uh, Rabbi Shimim from Ostropolli, to read his letter. There's a letter, it's sort of like a, he, it's, um, how do I describe it? It's a lot about Yitzhak Mitzrayim. Um, it's, I guess you could say sort of like a Kabbalah.

31:49 Speaker 1 Anyways, it's called Igeres, uh, Igeres, um, Shimshim Ostropolli. So back then in Russia, it wasn't like today where you go on kohas.com, you order any Sefer you want, the Mechaya. They didn't have any Sefarim, and he wanted to keep up this minig every single Erev Pesach. So he hand wrote it, and he had a handwritten copy that he kept till his eventual passing in the United States. So I'm very fortunate to have a copy of that. It's in the book, and, um, it's incredible to see a handwritten letter, and it gives you just a little bit of a window into what life was like for Yidden in the old country, um, specifically somebody who wanted to learn something, what that meant. Uh, right now you go on Safari. I mean, it's, uh, I, I, I I don't mean to sound dated every time, you know, "Oh, it's amazing what we have now," but it's true. And I think that you'll have a deep appreciation when reading the book, getting a historical glimpse into what life was truthfully like. So Metsad, uh, Nachum, just to give you a tiny glimpse. So he ha- he has this handwritten, this handwritten, um, um-

32:50 Speaker 4 Pan.

32:51 Speaker 1 There's a handwritten pan, and then there's also a, a handwritten, uh, letter, uh, um, that he would learn Erev Pesach. So, uh, I don't know if he went to Temchetz Mimim. It's a little bit unclear. His younger brother absolutely did because I actually have a Temchetz Mimim picture. I'm sure some, some of your viewers have seen. They used to take pictures of Temchetz Mimim, um, like-

33:09 Speaker 4 Not in Lubavitch. You're talking about somewhere else.

33:12 Speaker 1 Um, that's a good question. It could've been, it could've been, 'cause his brother, Avram Yeshaya. Let me think a second. Was it actually in Lubavitch? That's a good question. I, I don't remember offhand. Um, right, 'cause Temchetz Mimim opened in the late 1800s. Um, did he a- it wa-- Yeah. No, it is po-- When did, when did Temchetz Mimim leave Lubavitch?

33:37 Speaker 4 I think it's, um, ein zein, I think.

33:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. Then it's, then it's possible.

33:41 Speaker 4 You remember that time?

33:41 Speaker 1 Yeah. Then it's, uh-

33:42 Speaker 4 Lubavitch? I forgot.

33:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. No. Then it's possible then it was actually in Lubavitch. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause he, he eventually died in the siege of Leningrad in, um, in '41. But, um, so be'kitzur, back to the family as a whole, I go through a lot about, um, all the siblings. There were nine siblings. Nachum was, um, uh, one of them, my great-grandfather. And, uh, some survived, nebech some did not survive. And then, uh, from there we go into, uh, his children. One of them is which my grandfather, Reb Lippa, and he's one of five children. Um, and some survived, and some for- unfortunately did not survive. And it goes from there of what it was like to learn in Temchetz Mimim. Now, at this point, when Reb Lippa, when my zeide went, Temchetz Mimim, this is a-after the Bolshevik Revolution, um, things have drastically changed. I mean, even by the time my zeide went to Kremenchuk, Kremenchuk had already moved. So y- if you wanna get an incredible insight, it's only in chapter two, an incredible insight what, you know, is maybe it should be like mandatory reading for bochurim before they go to yeshiva. "Oh, the food is no good." Just read this chapter.

34:48 Speaker 4 The underground.

34:49 Speaker 1 Oh my goodness. It, it, it's, it's, what, the, the, the between the underground, between your life being at risk, between the lack of food, the lack of, uh, of lodging. Um, in the meantime, my zeide took it as the best experience of his life. Uh, in, in one of the... He, he bounced around to several yeshivas, uh, not because he got kicked out, because, because sadly, they were always shut down, uh, and they always did their best to-

35:15 Speaker 4 The communists kicked them out.

35:17 Speaker 1 Correct. The communists would shut it down, and then they would, um, move on to another location where it was, I guess you could say, ahead of the communists. So he ended up going to be'erech four yeshivas over the course of roughly four and change years. And, um, there's a great comp- great piece, and this I heard from an interview from him. At this point, I, I wanna definitely thank my cousin, Mendy Shapiro, who as a bochur in, in Mesifta. So imagine he's in Shir Alf Mesifta. He's 14 years old. He sat down with my zeide, uh, many, many years ago, and over the course of a be'erech a year, six hours of recording. That was incredible, which was one of the pieces of material that I used for the book. Um, it was on a cassette, uh, poor quality, um, in Yiddish, of course, and my zeide was later on in life. Uh, so that was tough extrapolation, extremely tough, probably one of the toughest parts of this entire project. And, and in there, he, he, he talks about, uh, a lot of the details of yeshiva. He talks a lot about a lot of things, but I'm just saying specifically yeshiva. And Reb Itche the Masmid, and there's a whole section on that, came to his yeshiva, and I believe he spent the winter there, and he became very close with him. Everything from being mes- mesmerized by him, and he highly influenced, uh, the person he became. Everything from the way he learned.

36:33 Speaker 1 Um, he would be busy all day long, you know, in the yeshiva and everything like that. And as soon as the evening came, 'cause they actually stayed in the same place. Like, everyone had like a nook and a cranny to sort of sleep. There was no fancy dormitory with a comfortable mattress. So in this case, there was a cook for the yeshiva, and this, and, and, um, she had like almost like a little extra space in the kitchen. So they put like two beds. So he would be there, and Reb Itche would be there. And, um, comes, you know, 11:30 at night when one would think you're about to go to sleep 'cause you have a big day of learning tomorrow. Reb Itche put his feet in, uh, cold water and opened up a tour and started to learn. And in his words, he basically never saw him sleep the entire duration of that winter when he came to the yeshiva. And there's a lot more detail on Reb Itche and his incredible, him as an incredible individual, of course, but also his influence on my Zayde and the yeshiva as a whole. So there's a lot on the underground yeshiva, which I know it's not an easy fix to say, "Bachram learned this prior to day one," but I think it's extremely insightful. Because a lot of the stuff, at least personally, if I read something or read a story or something, it's still vague. Pardon me for drawing back to one of my

37:47 Speaker 1 original statements about the podits and the krechma. It's just a little bit vague. I don't actually understand what's flying. You're telling me like a dot on a big screen. I don't actually know what's going on. So anyway, this chapter, chapter two, about what his yeshiva life was like running around will tell you the story of Lubavitch, of what it meant to be in Russia at that time period in the '20s, running around to yeshivas, and '20s and '30s. And particularly in English, by the way, I just want to comment quickly. There's a lot of incredible English material, but I have found in my research that there's not a tremendous amount in English on these time periods. So Stam, just noting that, that if someone is interested in something English in that time period, I think this would suit them.

38:37 Speaker 4 Okay. And your grandfather at this time, he never... Did he see the Fidiker Rebbe at all or no?

38:44 Speaker 1 At this point, I don't get the impression. See, this is one of the toughest parts is because I did it after he had passed. The impression I got, and I'm probably going to get a phone call afterwards, "How did you not know?" I did so much research over the course of all these many, many years. Again, I started this, we're talking about 16 years ago. I don't get the impression that he met the Fidiker Rebbe. I don't have anything to say that he did. He lived in Karlovich. Then he left Karlovich to go to the yeshivas, and then eventually he came back to Karlovich, and then he migrated to Leningrad, which a lot of Chassidim went to Leningrad. This is after the Fidiker Rebbe had already left. He didn't come to Leningrad until like the early '30s. So the Fidiker Rebbe, he came to Leningrad after the Fidiker Rebbe was no longer there. And then from Leningrad, he was there for a while. However, he was there for several years, ultimately got married. So when he got married, which I guess we'll get into in a second, he got married, spent some time in his wife's hometown, and then came back to Leningrad. So the point is, I have no documentation to state that he ever actually met the Fidiker Rebbe in person. They were never in the same place at the same time. I do have correspondence. I have panim that he sent the Fidiker Rebbe. And of course, later I have letters that

40:08 Speaker 1 he received from the Fidiker Rebbe, but that's of course when they finally got out of Russia. So no, I don't believe they ever met in person.

40:14 Speaker 4 Ever. Okay.

40:16 Speaker 1 Yep.

40:18 Speaker 4 So I want to hear, let's hear about their marriage, and then let's hear about your grandmother and her father, the Rebbe's Melamed. Let's go down that route.

40:25 Speaker 1 Sure. So now you have this man, Reb Lipa Shapiro, who after going through Temchet Mimim, he came back to Karlovich. He had the incredible privilege of learning with his uncle, whose nickname was Setherov. This was Rabbi Mendel Dubrowski, Mama Shargon, and he's talked about in the book a lot. The 10-second version is that he actually was the Rosh Yeshiva in Temchet Mimim for a period of time. Anyway, you could read about him there. But the point is now you have Reb Lipa, who is well-educated in Temchet Mimim, and then had a chavrusah with his uncle, Rabbi Mendel Dubrowski, and then moved on to Leningrad. In Leningrad, he started working, and there was, just before his arrival, there was an establishment of let's call it a half-day yeshiva. It was called Tiferes Bachurim. And the Fidiker Rebbe was extremely proud about it, and there's a lot of people involved, and sadly a lot of tragedy involved because of the Russians, but we'll get to that shortly. But the short version is that he was very involved in Temchet Mimim, excuse me, in Tiferes Bachurim, and he was a Magid Shir there, which was a massive ordeal. It was all done in secret. So now you have a single individual, and he's there. His cousin, he has a cousin by the name of Meir Dubrowski, right? I mentioned a moment ago his uncle is Mendel Dubrowski. So his son marries a girl by the name of Dina Valenkin, the daughter of Rabbi Schneur Zalman Valenkin. So his

41:47 Speaker 1 cousin said, "Made the shidduch." He's like, "My wife is a sister, and you're my cousin. I think that would be great." And sure enough, he was right. So Reb Lipa Shapiro gets married in a backyard on a Friday afternoon in Yekatrinislav to Hannah Valenkin, the daughter of Reb Schneur Zalman Valenkin, who was their Ebbes childhood Melamed. Now, who is he? Probably the most secret, not secret. I don't want it to sound suspicious secret. I mean most unknown story because he is a fascinating, beyond fascinating individual. Nothing's ever been published on him, and I guess it's my duty as his great-grandson to do so, right? Who else is going to do it? There have been many articles. Don't get me wrong. There have been articles. There have been beautiful churras. A tremendous amount of help came from my cousin, who's his namesake, Reb Schneur Zalman Valenkin, who for his wedding did an incredible churro in Lashon Kadesh with a lot of interviews. And thankfully to him, this was in the late '90s, so a lot of people are still alive. And he was an incredible help. But the point is that there's never been written any book on him. He comes from a town, Podbranka. So half the audience is, "Oh, Podbranka. Of course I know Podbranka. Podbranka is like a household name." Podbranka is a city in Belarus. It, it border, is it a border ville? I mean, it's in the book, but can-- I didn't memorize every detail. It, it's right... Either it bordered

43:23 Speaker 1 Belarus or it's, uh, it's in Belarus. It was a very, very holy town. Um, actually, the Maharash said a minor there because there was a chasunah, um, that he came for. But the point is, it was an extremely holy town, and he was born in, in, um, 189-- 1878, 1878, about a month after Reb Leivick. After or before? Pardon me. But within a month. They were both born within a month.

43:49 Speaker 4 The Rebbi's father.

43:50 Speaker 1 Correct. Oh, yes. Reb Leivick. Thank you. Reb Leivick, the Rebbi's father. Um, and they were born about a month apart from each other, and they were very privileged to learn together as children. They were childhood, uh, chavrosses. I mean, obviously things were very different back then. Your cheder was basically your, your local shul, and they would learn. Um, they also were highly influenced by Reb, uh, Zalman Haiken as well, who taught them as well. So anyway, this is the world where Reb Schneur Zalman of Valenkin was born. To, to my knowledge, uh, he was always Lubavitch. It appears, it appears they go back as far as the, as the, as the Alter Rebbe. It was a little bit hard to do like a Ben haBen, um, but it, it appears that they go back to the Alter Rebbe of the Valenkins, um, in terms of being Lubavitch. Um, his, his, his childhood was, was very unique in that regard. The city of Padre Branca was also a stopover when going to see their Rebbe. So obviously, it was extremely unusual. Uh, it was a great privilege to see their Rebbe, but they had the, the unique privilege that when the Hasidim would, would go on their way, they would stop in for bringing a preparation and, of course, on their way home, give chazara, um, and that was an incredible part of their life. So just being en route to the Rebbe changed your whole life drastically. It's a very interesting, like, perspective, right? Like,

45:13 Speaker 1 your entire childhood could be predicated on the geography of your city's location, and that's gonna shape your entire future. Who'd think about that?

45:22 Speaker 4 Makes sense.

45:23 Speaker 1 Sure. But I guess today when you're thinking of what's a nice community to live, let's say someone, uh, whatever, the Anash communities, I don't know, there's 50 sprinkled Anash communities in the United States. Where am I gonna live? So I'm sure people are thinking about the schools and the, the Yiddishkeit of the neighborhoods and all these kinds of other things. It's just a very unique perspective. It's like, okay, I'm gonna pick the one that's en route to Lubavitch, you know, because I'm gonna get the passer buyers. I'm gonna get the visitors. Anyway, um, so his, uh, his father was a shochet, and as we know, um, it was always like this in, in the old country that the shochet... I mean, the shochrim today are obviously still yirei Shamayim, but it was very normative that the shochet was basically like the mashpia of the town, almost like the second to the Rav, um, 'cause you have, you have to have tremendous yirei Shamayim to be a shochet. So, um, his father, um, was a shochet, and, um, he-- so he went to cheder, learned-- was very close with Reb Leivick, the Rebbe's father, and that was his upbringing. There's a l-- a tremendous amount more detail in the book about his childhood, and eventually his visit to the Rebbe Rashab, getting out of getting drafted, which was, uh, mamash a miracle. He was one of nine children. He was one of nine children. And, um, obviously, Temimim didn't really exist at the time. Um, he's,

46:36 Speaker 1 you know, like I said, he was born in 1878. Um, he eventually gets married, turn of the century in 1900. His shver is also a shochet. So ultimately, he moved to his wife's town, which was very, very nearby, and, uh, his shver ultimately, uh, trained him, um, to be a shochet, and that is how, um, in, in, in, um, and that is sort of how his marriage life began. Reb Leivick, as we know, um, became the Rav of Yekatirinoslav, which is modern-day Dnepr. And-

47:09 Speaker 4 D-Dnipro, I think it's called.

47:11 Speaker 1 Oh, 'cause it was Dnepropetrovsk, and then in, like, twenty-

47:13 Speaker 4 I think it's called Dnipro now.

47:14 Speaker 1 Dnipro. It changed again. Okay.

47:15 Speaker 4 That's the famous joke that, uh, the Rebbe was born in a place called Yekatirinoslav, but it was very hard to pronounce, so they changed it to Dnepropetrovsk.

47:26 Speaker 1 Well, the Rebbe was born in Nikolas.

47:27 Speaker 4 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The Rebbe grew up. But, but now I think it's called Dnipro. Okay.

47:32 Speaker 1 Okay. So it's interesting 'cause in the book I had to make that distinction. I had an incredible editor. Um, she wrote the book on, uh, Rabbi J.J. Hecht, just a phenomenal editor, and that was one of the hardships. I'm like, "Okay, so how do I consistently work with cities? Like, do I continuously change?" So the kids are in the book, I just call it Yekatirinoslav because we're reading about that time period.

47:50 Speaker 4 Right.

47:50 Speaker 1 And even when it changes a little later, maybe I'll put a parentheses or something. So I try to make it very use-- comfortable for the reader. So Reb Leivick, the Rebbe's father, becomes the Rav in, uh, 1909 in Yekatirinoslav. Uh, there's a tremendous amount written about him. The-- But let's go into his personal life for a quick moment. Okay. He has three children, the Rebbe as-- of which is the oldest, and, um, of course, needing somebody to teach them. Unlike today, people... Not to be insensitive, but there's, you know, tuition is not the easiest thing in the world. I'm not minimizing it, but there's a little bit of a harder option. No yeshivas. That's a little bit of a harder option. So the i-- the notion of even being able to, uh, have a yeshiva available, it didn't exist. So he reaches out to his chaver and tell-- At, at the time, Yekatirinoslav Taka had a lot of shochrim. Um, there was a time period, this is before things got really, really bad and it secularized. There was still a, a great need for kosher food.

48:59 Speaker 4 It was a big city, Yekatirinoslav.

49:00 Speaker 1 Huge. Huge.

49:01 Speaker 4 Yeah.

49:01 Speaker 1 And was very, very Jewishly populated. But just to give you, you know, perspective on, on, on the, on the... Well, I'll get to it in a second. But at the moment... So he reached out to his chaver and said, "You know, I'm, I'm here in Yekatirinoslav. I ne-I need a shochet." And he obviously knew that he was a yirei Shamayim. He knew him from childhood. He knew him very, very well. "Please come." Now, unlike today, he didn't send a WhatsApp message, and he was on a flight 24 hours later. It, it appears it took at least nine to 11 months to actually make that trip between, you know, closing down his affairs and, um, and, uh, where, where... Not mamash Padre Branca. He was not terribly far away. Um, and then, you know, make his way. By the time he arrives in Yekatirinoslav, uh, sadly, the, the wave of secularism, um, keeps, keeps getting stronger, and there's no more need for another shochet. So Reb Leivick says, "How's this? Please teach my children, and when a, when a cheder position opens, uh, you'll get it." Um, admittingly so, he was a little bit uncomfortable with that proposition. Um, not that he was a bagava, and I say this wholeheartedly, uh, about his character. You'll read about his character in the book. It was more just unusual. I mean, here you have this incredibly, incredibly learner Talmid Chacham, incredibly, uh, uh, it would be, it would be appropriate to call him a go'en. He, he, he,

50:21 Speaker 1 he didn't understand why he would, you know, kavyachol teach Ki Tetze. But he obviously trusted, trusted Reb Leivick. He, of course, happily admitted later on that that was the silliest thought that he ever had in his life. So in his little apartment, which there's photos of the exterior, I wish I could get the interior, um, but there's photos of the exterior. My uncles actually made a pilgrimage there many, many years ago, so I have a wonderful photo of three of my uncles standing right outside the apartment, and that is where the cheder was. So it was-- I'll go slow so people can get a perspective. Uh, also, it was a mandatory schooling by the government. You had to sort of have excuses, are you sick, et cetera. I'll leave that aside for a second how they got out of that. So you have the Rebbe, and then you had 11 other children. Now, now, overall, he taught for Be'er nine, nearly 10 years, like nine years and, and a bit. So let's just round it. Be'er 10 years he taught. Let's focus for a second at the beginning. So the Rebbe was the oldest. The other two, the Rebbe's brothers, um, were much too young, but Rabbi Tzemachana obviously knew that them sitting in a cheder, even though being much too young, would be a much better influence than them sort of staying at home and doing nothing or-- So they would go as well. So the, so the three of them would be there,

51:42 Speaker 1 but the younger two, at the beginning, at least, would just, you know, play on the floor and just be there to be in the environment. And then there were others. There was Reb Nachum Goldschmidt, and I mentioned some of them in the book. And, um, additionally, uh, Rabbi, uh, Elchanan Schmukler and Rabbi Abelender wrote a phenomenal book called Early Years, and they go into a lot of detail as well about some of the Rebbe's classmates and those details. Again, my perspective was specifically about, uh, my alter Rebbe Zalman Vilenkin. So the Rebbe joined this brand new cheder when he was seven years old. So we know when the Rebbe was born in, uh, in 1902. So the Rebbe's seven years old, and, uh, the, uh, Reb Zalman immediately realized, immediately that the Rebbe is the Rebbe, to put it mildly. They were one time learning, and these-- and, and some of these stories, um, it's not like Derech Eretz. He wouldn't always disclose, sort of felt like it's, it's, it's more honorable to, to respect the Rebbe's privacy. But over the years, he would disclose certain things about his experiences, and thankfully, with enough of, with enough collection from so many people over the years, able to get some clarity on what that cheder was like. So basically, the Rebbe, um, uh, one, one thing that he mentioned, so the Rebbe would learn with Reb Zalman one-on-one. It was very clear that the Rebbe was obviously ahead of the class, and, uh, he, he talked

53:03 Speaker 1 about, uh, how the Rebbe's mind was incredibly unusual. So he would learn, uh, he would learn with the Rebbe privately, then, uh, then learn with the other children while the Rebbe did Chazarah, and it was almost like a flip-flop 'cause the Rebbe was in a, in a drastically different, uh, universe. They were learning, they were learning Gemara at one point. So we're talking from, from basic, from entry level, and it's mentioned in the book in, in other locations where the Rebbe says what they learned. So he says, he t- the Rebbe says that Reb Zalman taught me Chumash and Rashi and Gemara, and probably the most powerful, powerful statement, "He put me on my feet." That's, that's almost become a-

53:45 Speaker 5 This is something I think the Rebbe said after he passed away.

53:48 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. Uh, and the, the exact episode was, was very beautiful where Rabbi, uh, Dr. Nissen Mendel, whose daughter is my aunt, so whose daughter married my uncle Sholom Ber. And so when Sholom Ber and Frieda had a son, um, Rabbi Mendel was there and mentioned to the Rebbe that he was just blessed with a grandson, and they named him Schneur Zalman after the Zayde. Well, after the baby's alter Zayde. And that's when the Rebbe shared a lot of detail, but particularly that, and it's all in the book, uh, but particularly that statement that he s- he put me on my feet, and elaborated what they learned together.

54:28 Speaker 5 And, um, we recently published, uh, an article about your great-grandfather, which we relied on the book for a lot of the information. So that's how we ended off the article, what the Rebbe said about him at, at after fizz. And then the Rebbe said that this new child should go in his ways, fo-follow in his footsteps.

54:48 Speaker 1 Exactly. Exactly. And, um, that article, I, I-- It's un-- I don't know how, uh... So the Her magazine is absolutely unbelievable. I know you're not the one being interviewed, but it's unbelievable. It's mamish unbelievable on many levels. And people talk about it in first person like, like it's an, an important part of many, many people's lives. That article, I've had so many discussions with so many people about. Again, it was such a, a incredible insight into something that I think some people were, were less aware of. And it's, uh, I, I encourage, uh, listeners to go on the archives. You can find it on the, the Her website. It's very easy to find, and it's an incredible article. It's obviously, uh, uh, shorter. The book has way more detail. But that is how, um, the Rebbe described his experiences in Reb Zalman's cheder, that the Rebbe started from Chumash, Rashi, into Gemara. They would be learning together, and the Rebbe, excuse me, Reb Zalman would skip over a complex Tosefta, and the Rebbe would say, "No, no, no, no. Can't s- can't skip even one Tosefta." Just that's one of the things he said. Unbelievable. The Rebbe would ask such incredible questions that he, his, he wouldn't, he-- It was more, it's not shock-- Sure, there were definitely questions he couldn't even answer That, that's almost like half the amazement, that you have a child asking questions to, uh, to Agoyin, and he couldn't answer the question. The bigger amazement was you don't expect these

56:11 Speaker 1 words to exit a child. That, that's the part that's even-- it's, it blows you away that it's almost like imagine one day when, you know, you, you wake up in the morning, and all of a sudden your, your five-year-old speaks fluent Chinese. It, it, it blows you away. Like, what, what just happened over here? It, it doesn't make any sense. So now, now you can understand why the Rebbe would have to learn privately with Reb Zalman. And this happened for four and a half years, which is absolutely tremendous, that this is the, the Rebbe's entire, uh, childhood education, and this is, uh, frankly, the only formal melamed that the Rebbe ever had. Uh, obviously, we know about a tremendous amount of this correspondence with the Rogatchover. Of course, the Rebbe learns with Reb Leivick as well. But in terms of, of, uh, let's call it a melamed, this is it. This is where it all started. And how do you think it ended? It ended exactly as you could imagine. Um, Reb Zalman turns to Reb Leivick and says, "We're done. Shas, Yershalmi, Bavli, Poskim, I, I have nothing else to teach him." And this is at 11 and a half. It's obvious to our listeners that, yeah, that makes perfect sense. But I'm just nonetheless telling you the story. And that is how that segment... Now, at the time, Reb Zalman's cheder, um, continued because the brothers have aged. Um, the Rebbe's two brothers, uh, Yisroel Ayaleb and, and Berel, they have aged, and

57:38 Speaker 1 now they're part of the cheder. Um, and there's also beautiful stories how they would perk up as very, very young children commenting on what's going on in the class, even though originally they were just tiny kids, you know, just being in the avir of Torah, one would think not even participating. Ultimately, uh, Reb Zalman taught until, um, the youngest child of Reb Leivick, uh, was close to bar mitzvah, around 12-ish, where at that age, you know, the, the cheder sort of dismantled. And then, excuse me, and then he went back to shtreimel. Um, there's a lot more about his life, uh, in general as an individual and how he raised his children and the k- and the mesirus nefesh of the time in Yekatirinislav.

58:20 Speaker 5 So may-maybe, maybe close off just, uh, in, in short, going through like, you know, what happened to him, how he came to America, and also-

58:30 Speaker 1 Oh, sure

58:30 Speaker 5 ... when he met the Rebbe here.

58:32 Speaker 1 Sure.

58:32 Speaker 5 You know, I think he went to Cleveland. Just let's, let's do a little, let's, let's do it in, in short, just finish off that chapter of the Reb Zalman Vilenkin.

58:39 Speaker 1 Sure. Sure. So, uh, Reb Zalman, like I said, and the Rebbe, um, uh, stopped learning together. My, my grandmother, Chana Vilenkin, um, on the, on the, on-- So if anyone's familiar with Gem has a phenomenal, a phenomenal series.

58:57 Speaker 5 Early years.

58:57 Speaker 1 It was called Early Years. She's the first interviewer. She's the very first interview, and she was obviously very young, but she does have recollections already. The Rebbe being older as a bachur coming over and borrowing seforim. Reb Zalman had a tremendous amount of seforim. And, uh, so the Rebbe finished with the cheder but still continued to live with his family in Yekatirinislav. Uh, fast-forwarding, uh, to fast-forward, um, the Yekatirinislav, so Reb Leivick, as we know, um, eventually, eventually had to leave Yekatirinislav. It's, I guess, a polite way to put it. But-

59:35 Speaker 5 He was imprisoned. Yeah.

59:36 Speaker 1 Right. Right.

59:37 Speaker 5 Exiled.

59:38 Speaker 1 Exiled. Exiled. And then around that same time, the war broke out, and then everybody fled. So you have, you have, uh, Reb Zalman along, uh, with his family. At that point, his, uh, his fir-first wife passed away, so he got remarried. And, um, so he-- I'll give you the short version basically. From Yekatirinislav, he fled. Uh, I'm definitely summarizing it, but there's a lot of good detail in the book. Um, and I'm sure the readers will have a real appreciation for what it means in middle of the war to have no money, to have no food.

1:00:09 Speaker 5 Your grandparents were with him?

1:00:11 Speaker 1 So interestingly, this is a whole nother episode, but I'm, I won't, I wanna rela- I wanna elaborate, but the ten-second version is that June of 1941 is when Russia entered World War II. But prior to that, there was a treaty, so two Roshoyim made a treaty. I don't mess with you, and you don't mess with me. So Hitler and Stalin-

1:00:30 Speaker 5 The Nazis and the Russians.

1:00:31 Speaker 1 Right. So imagine Hitler and Stalin were like-

1:00:33 Speaker 5 Hitler and Stalin.

1:00:34 Speaker 1 Yeah. Two Roshoyim made a deal. And, uh, unfortunately, yeah, and then that deal b-blew up. So basically in Ju-- by the time June of 1941, what happened was, uh, Lippa was liv-wi-living with his wife, Chana, in Yekatirinislav. But, but, um, that, at that moment, she went, um, to visit her father in Yekatirinislav. Excuse me. They were living in Leningrad. A thousand miles away in Yekatirinislav, she went to visit. While she was on that visit is when the war broke out. So now Lippa and Chana-

1:00:59 Speaker 5 The Nazis invaded Russia.

1:01:01 Speaker 1 Correct. So now you have Lippa and Chana are a thousand miles apart, no communication, the war breaks out, and i-it's, it's, it's, it's really, it's really just so otherworldly. Ultimately-

1:01:16 Speaker 5 They had any kids yet?

1:01:17 Speaker 1 They did have. At that point, they had one kid who, nebech, did not survive and, who did not survive. Uh, they actually had a second kid later, unfortunately, who also didn't survive. Um, so my oldest uncle is actually the third child. Um, should live and be well. So now you have Reb Zalman with his visiting daughter, actually two visiting daughters. It was the same thing. Like, they both came to visit. They each had a baby. So, um, two of his daughters came to visit. He has sons as well who are mentioned in the book. They were off in yeshiva. But what's going on in Yekatirinislav? It's him, his wife, his two daughters, and each one of them have their baby. They came for a visit. The war breaks out, and they need to leave, and, uh, immediately. They go. Eventually, they end up at a town near the Caspian Sea, which I, which I failed to get the pro-proper pronunciation. It's, uh, Makhachkala. It's a tough pronunciation. And he was there for a shtickel of time with a lot of other refugees, and I, I have details in the book about how he, um, was a incredible mashpia to the refugees, ultimately making it to Tashkent, um, which is in, for, for those that don't know, which is in, um, which is in Uzbekistan. After- afterward, without getting into every detail, there was the famous great escape, and from Tashkent made it to Lviv, Lemberg. From Lemberg, eventually made it to the DP camps in

1:02:40 Speaker 1 Pucking, which-

1:02:41 Speaker 6 So your grandparents ended up reconnecting and going to Tashkent?

1:02:45 Speaker 1 My-- Right. So my grandparents were separated for be'erech a year and a half during the war. Yeah. This wasn't an overnight sensation. What I just said in one second took, took a long time. So yeah, during the war, they eventually-- So they were separated in nineteen forty-one, and eventually reunited in forty-three, and lived, uh, for the duration of the war in Tashkent. And as soon as the opportunity got, uh, became to flee, to flee the Soviet Union, they did so with many other Lubavitcher families, and there's incredible detail and photographs as well of people. And, and, and I'll, I'll get to the, I'll get to the flea in a second 'cause, uh, there's a few secrets that I, I un- I unraveled that, uh, I really appreciate. So Reb Zalman basically, uh, leave-- uh, escapes Russia, ends up in a displaced persons camp. I talk about a lot of, a lot of his activity there. They-- From the displaced persons camp, they go and they go to Paris. From Paris, the plan was obviously to, um, get to the United States. The Joint, um, was incredible. Mamish, uh, if you read about what the Joint did, Mamish Tzadikim. And they, uh, enabled, they enabled the refugees to have stability. They, they took, they took over a hotel. They get them housing. They tried to f- you know, they gave them a stipend. They gave them clothing, trying to find them a job. They're mamish incredible. And, and there's a lot of correspondence between Reb Zalman

1:04:01 Speaker 1 and the Friediker Rebbe, which is all in the book. And there's also correspondence between Reb Zalman and the Rebbe, because he was-- he ended up staying there up until 1953, after the Rebbe, after the Rebbe was Rebbe. And, and, um, the Rebbe definitely behind the scenes tried to, uh, get him visas and all these kinds of things, and was successful. But unfortunately, Reb Zalman's health did not allow him to travel, so he eventually, after his recovery. 1953, Reb Zalman with his wife, Zelda, and, uh, I think at the time it was only one of his daughters. His other daughter shortly followed afterward. My, my grandmother and, um, her husband, Reb Lippa, and children, they followed shortly thereafter. This is the first time now, it's 1953, that the Rebbe and Reb Zalman reunite. He wa- the Joint, the American Joint Distribution Committee, um, were having him settle in Cleveland. And the way it worked was that it was all privately funded by the Joint. They would mamish collect money from American Jews, and I'm sure beyond. And there, there were quotas for cities, for refugees. You couldn't just, you know, pick your city on a map. But on their way to Cleveland, they came to Crown Heights. And this is the first time that Reb Zalman and the Rebbe are meeting each other in basically decades.

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1:07:11 Speaker 6 of Der Her through your financial support as well through visiting our website, derher.org, or through contacting us to setting up a meeting. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the podcast.

1:07:22 Speaker 1 I spoke with Eda Springer. So the mashpia, Reb Itche Springer, his wife, her name is Eda, Edel. She is my father's first cousin. So Reb Zalman had a daughter, Dina. I was telling you about Dina married, uh, married Meir Dubrowski. So this is her daughter, Eda Dubrowski, who eventually became Eda Springer. So she was there, and unfortunately, she passed away recently. I conducted, uh, at least four interviews with her over the course of the book, and she was there firsthand to describe the yechidus. Reb Zalman walks in-

1:07:55 Speaker 6 She was, she was in the room?

1:07:56 Speaker 1 She was in the room because she had just come from Paris. They finally had come to the United States. She was in the room with her parents and grandparents. And they come in, the Rebbe immediately stands up and greets his melamed. Rab Zalman is elderly. Like I even said, his, his, his, uh, his health wasn't, uh, great 'cause that's one of the reasons why he couldn't leave, uh, Paris sooner, even though he had all the proper documentation. Rab Zalman would not, and nor would any Hasid sit during Yechidas. It's not appropriate to sit in front of the Rebbe. The Rebbe would not sit in front of his Melamed. So they both stood. The Yechidas went on for somewhere about forty-five minutes, and they were standing the entire time. Eda shared with me that the Rebbe was trying to persuade Rab Zalman to sit down 'cause he's elderly, wanted him to sit, and said, it's in the book, the exact quote, "Mit fertsik yo tzirek habn mir gezetsn af ayn bank." Forty years ago, we sat together on one bench. We sat together learning together. We could, we could sit together now as well. And, uh, Rab Zalman did say later on that he felt very badly he made the Rebbe stand, but at the cost of sitting in front of the Rebbe. That was the first Yechidas that they had when they came to the United States. Hasidim were obviously right outside and eager to see, eager to hear all the details how that went.

1:09:32 Speaker 1 He then went on to Cleveland. Tremendous correspondence in the book, a lot of letters from the Rebbe about everything going on, um, in Cleveland, everything from his Shiurim to his Farbrengens, um, which communities he's living in, 'cause he started off in c- in, in, in one community, and then the Jewish community moved, so he, he went to, let's call it, the newer Jewish community. He had a lot of Shiurim with the Bocherim in Tels, the famous Tels Yeshiva that, uh, was sadly destroyed, and Lithuania was reestablished right after the war in Cleveland. So Rab Zalman would-- The Bocherim would come over to his home, and they would Farbrengen and have Shiurim. And so there's a tremendous amount of incredible correspondence, um, so which, which really gives you a real, uh, insight. Fast-forward a couple of years, um, Rab Zalman really wants to move to Crown Heights, be closer to the Rebbe, um, be closer to his children. Obviously, his, um, uh, you know, s- able to get there as well. So, and there's a lot of details about that move, but I'll just... I'll try to fast-forward a little bit. So now he's about to come back to Crown Heights. This is approximately 1960. And there's a second Yechidas, right? 'Cause now he's back in Crown Heights. However, he wasn't as strong as he was the first time, physically. So he comes into the Yechidas. My Uncle Shalom Berr was, uh, holding him, physically holding his arm. My Uncle Shalom Berr told me, you know,

1:10:53 Speaker 1 he, he was obviously extremely nervous standing in front of the Rebbe with his Zayde. Um, and the Rebbe even told him to, you know, hold him better 'cause he was so nervous. He was a tiny bit, you know, wobbly. And he, uh, my uncle felt badly about that, but I, I, I assured him that he didn't do anything wrong. Um, so in that Yechidas, he had no choice, and he profusely apologized to the Rebbe and said, "I, I really need to sit. I, I, I wish I could-"

1:11:20 Speaker 5 In general, he was in a wheelchair, right, at that point?

1:11:22 Speaker 1 Um, I, I don't believe at that point he was in a wheelchair, but he definitely, uh, was not able to, to comfortably walk or stand for long periods. So he sa-- I, um, I mean, it could be, but I, I don't believe so. No, 'cause otherwise they probably would have wheeled him into the Yechidas.

1:11:38 Speaker 5 Well, he was later. Yeah. Okay.

1:11:39 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he apologizes and sits down, and, um, they have their second Yechidas. And now he's living in Crown Heights on Lincoln Place, very close by. And because he wasn't in-- he wasn't extremely healthy, it was challenging for him to come to the Farbrengens. So he had a... This is what he would do. This was the strategy. He would either come before, he would either come before this way he-- 'cause it takes him a long time to get to his seat. He wasn't well, and therefore, the Farbrengen would start. The trouble is, he couldn't sit the entire Farbrengen because he couldn't physically sit, you know, for a very long time. The Rebbe would put him very prominently, uh, right behind him, sort of like by the dais. And, um, the Rebbe would give him l'chaim and, and give him, and give him a piece of cake, but he couldn't-- He wasn't able to stay the entire time. So he would try his best to leave during a Nigun to be less disruptive. The trouble is that the Rebbe would not be seated while his Melamed is standing. So the Rebbe would sit up a little bit with-- which, what appears to be the intention of not inconveniencing the entire Olam and making everyone stand, but at the same time, the Rebbe would stand for his Melamed. Then, of course, it appears that most of the Olam stood up, noticing the Rebbe standing, and it would take some time for him to leave. Then

1:12:57 Speaker 1 he would strategize the other way, perhaps come in middle of a Nigun, and then, then being able to stay till the end of the Farbrengen. Either way, getting in and out would always-- would be very disruptive, so he actually stopped going to Farbrengen 'cause he felt bad for the Rebbe and felt bad for, for the others present. So there were-- It appears that there were many Farbrengens that he did attend until he felt that it, it was, it was not nice to the Olam.

1:13:18 Speaker 5 It was a whole to-do every time he came.

1:13:20 Speaker 1 Absolutely. Whatever strategy he picked, whether he came earlier and left in middle or came in middle and left at the end, he, he couldn't win. Um, but always continued to have an extremely close, um, relationship, you know, and, and, and you see it in the correspondence. He, um, in-- He eventually aged, and, um, my, my Uncle Shalom Berr would-- was with, uh, lived, I think he lived by him because Yeshiva. So he was in Yeshiva, so he lived in his, he lived his-- in his apartment. And he came in, and he noticed that he was not speaking very clearly. Uh, he used to, um, anytime he wasn't learning something, he would be Chazri Mishnayos Baal Peh. He would learn all the time. That was just the status quo, always learning. But if he wasn't, like, learning in front of a Sefer, he'd be Chazri Mishnayos Baal Peh. I remember my, my Uncle Abel once, uh, once said when he was there as well that, that sometimes it was hard almost to, like, say Shalom Aleichem. Again, be put into perspective a child because he would say, "Okay, great. Grab a Mishnayos. Make sure I don't make any mistakes." So now you were kavyachol stuck making sure that you're following along, that he, uh... Anyway, in, in a nutshell, he had a stroke, and, um, and, uh, uh, Dr. Zelikson was involved, and the Rebbe intervened and actually got him some matzah because matzah is a food of healing. And was-- And again, a lot of

1:14:52 Speaker 1 these details about from his stroke and how incredibly involved... I mean, you know one thing I took away from that whole piece, which is very interesting? I, I, I didn't put it in the book. I mean, the incredible Derech Eretz that the Rebbe had for his childhood Melamed. You know, I, I will say that if I visit Crown Heights, and I pass by, you know, my Melamed from fourth grade, of course, I'llI'll say, "Shalom aleichem." I will. I mean, uh, you know, you gotta have derech eretz. But this is, this is, this is unbelievable. I mean, this is like, "Oh, yeah, that was my, my, my Kita Ches, you know, my Kita Vav teacher," whatever. We could learn a lot from the way the Rebbe treated Rav Zalman Vilenkin. Literally how somebody treats their melamed forty years later.

1:15:40 Speaker 7 Yeah.

1:15:41 Speaker 1 So, so the Rebbe, um, was very involved in, in that entire time period about being in touch with Dr. Zeliks and about his, about his health status. Even when he ultimately had to be hospitalized, the Rebbe sent a specialist, and my, my Aunt Raisel, when she was there visiting her Zayde, remembers that the, the doctors were all, uh, up in a buzz about, "Wow, there's this tremendous, uh, you know, prominent doctor that came to visit this, you know, this patient." No one knows, no one really understood the nature of it. But the Rebbe, um, was very involved in his care until he ultimately passed away. Even after he passed away, the Rebbe, um, held the Aron at his levaya, which is extremely rare. Went to the Beis Hakvaras, did not go inside because, uh, the Rebbe shared with Rav Shmuel of Viton on the drive back that he didn't make the proper acharonas 'cause if he had to go into the Beis Hakvaras, he'd have to go to the fitah k'rebbe, and he wasn't, uh, uh, prepared. But the Rebbe went to the levaya, and the Rebbe funded, funded, funded the, the kever. Asked that the two sisters give a dollar 'cause the children are meant to pay the fee for their parents' burial. So, uh, again, there were four children, but two of the boys were unfortunately stuck back in Russia, and the two girls were in Crown Heights. I'm sorry, um, in the United States, not in Crown Height. Well, one was in

1:17:02 Speaker 1 Crown Heights, one was in Cleveland. Anyway, so the Rebbe paid for the, paid for the levaya or paid for the burial, and then later on with the matzeva, the same thing. The Rebbe wanted to pay a third, and the two sisters paid the additional two-thirds. And of course, um, they submitted to the Rebbe the matzeva, and they felt bad submitting with the piece of, with the piece that says that, um, you know, that Rav Zalman was the Rebbe's teacher. They weren't sure how that would come across. Maybe it would be a little bit... They just felt it wasn't the best idea. When the Rebbe looked at the first draft of the matzeva said, "Why, why doesn't it say that he taught Yiddish kinder?"

1:17:41 Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

1:17:41 Speaker 1 "And I'm a witness. I was there." So the Rebbe changed it and, and inserted that, and you could see, and there's a photo. Obviously, it's written about in the book, but more specifically, there's a photo in there of Rav Zalman's kever, and you could see what I'm referring to, what the Rebbe added that, that, and that he learned with, uh, Jewish children, with the Rebbe's name, et cetera. So that is on his matzeva.

1:18:03 Speaker 7 The Rebbe added that part about, that added his name, though, or just-

1:18:05 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

1:18:06 Speaker 7 The Rebbe added the part.

1:18:06 Speaker 1 The Rebbe added the part that not only did he teach, but he had discussed to teach the Rebbe.

1:18:09 Speaker 7 Really?

1:18:09 Speaker 1 Meaning him.

1:18:10 Speaker 7 Okay.

1:18:11 Speaker 1 Yeah.

1:18:11 Speaker 7 Hmm.

1:18:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. And, uh, it's obviously, and it's right there in his matzeva. I actually took... I don't live in, uh, Crown Heights, so I would, every time I w- during the process, every time I would go to the ohel, I'd try to get another picture, and I just... What if it's middle of the night? I was trying to get a good picture. Ultimately, the best picture was like a Shema Yisrael picture in the snow, and that's the one that ended up in the book with like a snow streaking down. Um, and, and-

1:18:38 Speaker 7 It was buried right near the ohel?

1:18:39 Speaker 1 Four kfarim. But, but yeah. When you, if you, uh, if instead of making a left directly into the ohel, the first kever, as we know, is the Rashag. Three, yeah, three or four more matzeivas, uh, kfarim over is where Rav Schneur Zalman of Velenkin, the Rebbe's melamed, is buried. And ultimately, he lived a long life. He was born in 1878 and passed away in 1963, '63, '64. It's, it's in the book accurately, '63 or '68. He lived, he lived well into his 80s, and he's just an incredible individual. I mean, I, I barely ti- scraped the surface on who he was, what his life was about, his impact on people, on communities. But, um, I hope that the listeners got an idea in terms of who this great person was and, um, in the Rebbe's own words, how he influenced the Rebbe, and of course, the tremendous, tremendous derech eretz the Rebbe had for him.

1:19:25 Speaker 7 Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. It's really amazing. So you were talking about Cleveland, um, where obviously Zalman of Velenkin was there, and your grandparents were there also, your grandfather. So I know there's a lot there. That's another article we wrote in The Hair about your grandfather's, it's not only his story, but it's also what he was doing there that has a big lesson. So I wanna hear about that. But before that, maybe just, you mentioned in passing that you have some new things about the Great Escape. Um, so maybe I wanna hear about Cleveland. Maybe just talk about the Great Escape and, you know, your contribution to that story.

1:20:03 Speaker 1 Sure.

1:20:04 Speaker 7 Uh, with, in the book, and then we'll talk about Cleveland.

1:20:07 Speaker 1 So I, I believe I read almost anything I could get my hands on in regard to the Great Escape, um, and there was-

1:20:13 Speaker 7 There's, there's an article in The Hair about that as well.

1:20:16 Speaker 1 Very well done. Extremely well done and fantastic citations. I mean, anyone watching this knows their hair, so it's kinda silly for me to talk about it. Uh-

1:20:26 Speaker 7 Not necessarily.

1:20:27 Speaker 1 Lamish? Okay.

1:20:28 Speaker 7 Every, every... They know, but I don't know if everyone subscribes, so please encourage everyone.

1:20:31 Speaker 1 The... Yeah. I definitely encourage everyone, any- everyone to subscribe. Um, if you're on the fence about it, just get my cell phone number, and I'll, uh, I'll put you up for the first year if that's your, if you're doubting it, and then from there-

1:20:42 Speaker 7 Yeah. Okay.

1:20:43 Speaker 1 Yeah. So if somebody texts me and says, "I saw you on the podcast, and I saw you yenting about the incredible The Hair magazine," uh, no problem. I'll, I'll, uh, I'll back it up as long- I-

1:20:53 Speaker 7 Are you giving out your phone number as well?

1:20:55 Speaker 1 No, I, I think you need to have the own, your own gumption to figure it out, you know? In Lubavitch, I think there's two degrees of separation. There's not one person in Lubavitch I can't get their cell phone number.

1:21:03 Speaker 7 Right.

1:21:03 Speaker 1 I can get Levya's phone number tomorrow if I try hard enough, right? And I'm not Levya. I'm just a simple guy. So the point is- I, you know, I'm obviously trying to put my money where my mouth is, but I think, um, I'm, I'm being genuine, and I'll do it for, uh, to, to, to, to the degree I enable. This is by no means a shrua. Let's just put a big glean header next to it to the best of my ability. But if you're sincerely on the fence, and you, and you basically say, "You know what? I'm gonna take this character up on his offer, uh, as offer," and I get a WhatsApp message, "Hey," uh, then I will, I will execute. Their hair is an incredible, incredible magazine. There's nothing like it. And, uh, to the degree, this is a funny small s-story that I had. So many years ago when discovering their hair and just loving it and appreciating it, I remember thinking, "Oi, how do I get a hold of the old issues?" And, um, this is, I think this is maybe 2020, 'cause I, I remember it being roughly COVID time. There was a email that went out. Um, you could buy all the old, all the old issues, I think like hundreds, whatever it was. I im- whatever the big number was. I immediately jumped on it, and the website wasn't working, and episodes are wrong link, and I'm emailing them like, "How many do they have already?" And I,

1:22:05 Speaker 1 I finally hopped it. Fast-forward a little while later, I, I... Just to, just to share with the readers that it's not just a, a one man's opinion, although nothing wrong with one man's opinion. Shortly thereafter, um, I remember, um, sitting with a chaver of mine. Um, where were we? I forgot exactly the setting we were in, more like a, we like bumped into each other at a place, and having a similar conversation, and somehow their hair came up, and he's like, "By the way, did you jump on that?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. I immediately jumped on that." So if you have multiple people jumping on, how's the sign? Old issues, I hope it gives you a glimpse into what kind of publication this is. Um, yeah. The, the, their hair is incredible. So that, that article on The Great Escape is incredibly well done. I-in general, uh, I'm, I'm incredibly amazed how you always, always keep it, keep it fresh. I've, I've never opened up, uh, an issue. It was, it's always insightful in terms of, wow, yet another, another, uh, area, uh, uncovered. So The Great Escape, which is obviously a very prominent episode in Lubavitch history, was very well documented in their hair. So the-- So I basically read up on everything in English available, um, about The Great Escape, or Bechal this, anything surrounding the last, uh, you know, hundred years of Lubavitch history, basically mid-1800s, uh, almost to the present. And we'll get later on into what I

1:23:23 Speaker 1 w- what do I mean by the present. I mean really present. Um, so my cousin, so his name is Nachum Schwartz. So just for some of the readers that can appre- listeners that can appreciate this. So you have Reb Lipa Shapiro, I mentioned. He had a brother named Levitche. He also had a sister named Sarah Relka, who married, um, Shaya Gopin. So there was Lipa, Levitch, and Sarah Relka. They lived in Eretz Yisrael. Those are the parents of the famous Mashpia, uh, Reb Zalman Gopin. There was two more siblings that Nebuch, um, did not-

1:24:01 Speaker 7 And, uh, Nebiasca Gopin, who there's another episode.

1:24:05 Speaker 1 Oh, fantastic. And I believe he-

1:24:06 Speaker 7 Which by the time this will be out, will have been re-released already.

1:24:10 Speaker 1 And he was a great help as well. Um, there's a, a letter that he provided, uh, the call information, but also a letter and a photo that ended up in the book that he was very helpful for. Um, so, and then there were two additional siblings who unfortunately, um, did not make it, and they're written about in the book. So you have, you have, uh, Reb Lipa's brother, uh, Levitch, uh, married to Guta. Um, they have a daughter. They have a daughter, Razel, and she has a son named Nachum. This cousin of mine, he's my second cousin, Nachum, a wonderful individual, had the foresight to interview my Zayde Lipa on video. It's the only video interview that we have. Uh, anyone out there thinking about interviewing their parents, I mean, today the world is a lot different. It's much easier. You just grab your-

1:24:55 Speaker 7 He wasn't, but he was on, uh, Gem also.

1:24:57 Speaker 1 I don't believe. No, my Zayde was on Gem sitting with my bubbe. I do not believe my Zayde was individually interviewed for Gem, to my knowledge.

1:25:05 Speaker 7 Okay.

1:25:05 Speaker 1 I'm pretty sure not. Um, he was very helpful, of course, because he had spoken a tremendous amount with his father-in-law, with his share of Zalmans. He was also insightful and participated in that interview. But as it pertains to a video interview, just pragmatically, you could read a person's lips. So if someone's later on in age or things of that nature, it is, it was so much easier to transcribe a video interview than an audio interview. It's night and day. So Nachum has this video interview, and this is where the stuff came up. So my Zayde's talking about just a thousand things, you know, all over the place. You know, I get a lot of information all firsthand. And then finally, something novel comes up. He says, "The Bricha, they saved us." I, I don't even know what that is. I mean, I know he escaped from Russia, and, you know, everyone had to get passports and paperwork and sneak. Who, who exactly is the Bricha? I'm, I'm not aware. I never heard of them. I don't even know what it is. And frankly, it kind of put me in this whole new space of Taka. Just because you walked out of the Soviet Union, how do you end up in the American zone in the comfort of the DP camp? Comfort in the sense of like you're not being shot at. Not comfort, that's not the Four Seasons. But think about, think about it practically. You know, you don't have a dollar, you don't have

1:26:24 Speaker 1 a phone, you, you don't have a lang-- there's nothing. I start going down this incredible path of finding out who are the Bricha and how they saved us. The Bricha were Israelis, were a Zionist youth movement, Kav Yachanov, just, just youth, but a Zionist movement of people who were not religious, and they were doing everything they could to move people out. So two, two major components: one, to get people out of Russia, but additio-- or right when they ge- came out of Russia to get them to safety. There were some Bricha members which snuck into Russia. There's, uh, ten of them that we know that were executed because they mamish went into Russia, took Jews out, and they were executed. But most of their activity, 'cause that was, you could imagine, that's daunting to sneak into Soviet Russia. But they, as soon as the People escaped Russia, them, uh, they, where, where were they? Imagine you pull up in the train station in Krakow, 'cause Krakow's the first city into Poland. There is not a black cab waiting for you with a sign that says, "Welcome Kamen family." Like it's not, it's not like that, you know? So basically, now-

1:27:33 Speaker 7 So you're saying that the Lubavitch Hasidim were organizing the escape, but what happens post-escape, that's where the Bricha stepped in-

1:27:41 Speaker 1 Correct

1:27:42 Speaker 7 ... tremendously.

1:27:42 Speaker 1 And I will give a bit of a bigger background. Upon the research, it, it comes... There is in Eretz Israel, uh, like a Bricha legacy association. Yad Vashem does have a tremendous amount on them, but i-in a nutshell, it's really deemed the most undocumented, uh, tremendous part of Holocaust-related, Holocaust-related. And I think logically it's not, it's not unreasonable because obviously the Holocaust has a tremendous amount of, uh, documentation and what to be written about and meant to be discussed, obviously. So I think that some of the post, uh, Holocaust activities, I guess were a bit outsha-a bit outshined. Doesn't mean that they were any less. The Bricha, I wanna make sure I get the right number 'cause it is absolutely tremendous. The Bricha clandestinely moved, pardon me, they moved, I wanted to make sure to get the exact number because even though you could read about it, I'm sure like, sorry. Uh, right over here. They moved barek two hundred thousand Jews fleeing Eastern Europe between 1944 and 1948. It was an underground organization focused on aiding Holocaust survivors and Jews escaping from communist regimes, giving them a chance to rebuild their lives after the war. So again, there's a tremendous amount more on them, and their relationship with the Lubavitch Hasidim, how they were incredibly impressed by these Hasidim that are so committed to Yiddishkeit and so committed to their Rebbe in New York. I mean, these Israelis were incredibly impressed. And there's, so not only who the Bricha were, who were mesir nefesh

1:29:16 Speaker 1 to help their, mesir nefesh to help their brethren. They ultimately held them by the hand. Along, additionally, the Vaad Hatzalah was incredible as well, and I talk about that 'cause my bubbe in those interviews I told you about during, um, during the social studies, uh, project for Beis Rivkah talked about the Vaad Hatzalah as well. Um, so their, their, their, uh, contributions are in, in the, in, in terms of the, um, arriving in Krakow. The Bricha essentially was like this: How are we going to get these newly arrived Jews in Krakow all the way? So you're in-

1:29:48 Speaker 7 In Krakow? I thought they were in Lviv.

1:29:50 Speaker 1 No, Lviv is still in the Soviet Union. That's the last city. You get on a train.

1:29:55 Speaker 7 Oh, from, to Krakow. Okay.

1:29:57 Speaker 1 Now you're in Krakow. So they were also involved in the escape. Obviously, we have a Lubav-Lubav, a tremendous amount of Lubavitch history about Lubavitchers being involved in that piece of the... But they were also, they were also falsifying. But more bigger picture is now you crossed over into the border, you safely made it. Whoof, you made it. Now you're in Krakow, now you're in Poland. You're several countries away from the safety of the American war zone. You're in Poland. They don't want you. You're in trouble there. Plus, even some KGB people were still hanging out in Krakow looking for escapees. Then you have Czechoslovakia, then you have Austria, and you finally have Germany. They essentially took them by the hand, sometimes in cars, sometimes in trains, and sometimes by foot, all the way to, to, to safety. They did it for Lubavitch Hasidim, and they did it for hundreds of thousands of Jews. Mamish, it is the greatest, it's the greatest facilitation, uh, transfer in modern history that we know of, and I have been very blessed with obtaining in-incredible photos. Incredible photos about their even gathering still in Russia or still in Krakow saying, "This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna go on this arduous journey by foot for months." Mamish, you'd see as Mitzrayim to find... And, and I have, I was able to even meet family members with some of the photos, and they're all very, very well named about going through the forest. Some of these photos they pashut needed

1:31:26 Speaker 1 for fundraising purposes. If there's a photo, Lamashil, of them escorting. And you see they all look like Zionist youth. They have like the, the Boy Scout look with like the shirt and the shorts, and it's all there. And then you see like these Fruma families, like, you know, maybe they have like one little suitcase and a casket. And, you know, they had the... Thankfully, there were a few photos here and there because this enabled them to obviously, you know, fund some of this. But it's-

1:31:46 Speaker 7 Oh, they, they took the, so they took the photos for fundraising purposes.

1:31:49 Speaker 1 Yeah. And there's not a tremendous amount because, you know, you're middle of a forest. Uh, but they, you know, eventually if, if you're trying to fund hundreds of thousands of people moving, y-you gotta be able to convey that message to somebody somehow. Now, at this point, the war is over. People understood. But that's why Bechala, the Holocaust Museum, even has such photos. There's a tremendous letter, which is one of my favorite parts of, of this, uh, chapter on The Great Escape. Um, it's signed by Rabbi Nissan Mandel. Um, it's, you know, on behalf of the Fidei Querida. So, so Lviv is here, okay? Pucking DP camp is here. It's barek six hundred miles. Six hundred miles sounds like, "Girl, next week you have a flight." But if you're walking it, oh boy, it's quite, it's quite the distance if you're walking. At the halfway point in a city, uh, Opole, I'm not pronouncing it right, Opole, Opole, Poland. Basically, um, if Fidei Querida was inquiring about a kitchen, because on that way they, the joint had a kitchen there and wanted to see to it that there was kosher food for them while they're escaping. 'Cause there were little stops along the way where people could get some food, some medical attention, and this is all noted in, in the book, and it's, you know, photos and documents. But to me, the Bricha just absolutely, um, absolutely took that whole episode of The Great Escape and took it to a new Madrega. I, you know,

1:33:03 Speaker 1 I reached out to the, to the Bricha Institute in, um, in Yerushalayim or, sorry, not in Yerushalayim, somewhere in Eretz Yisrael. And that to me, a-a-anyone that reads that chapter in The Great Escape will definitely have a tremendous insight- On who these people were, what they had to do to hold their brethren by the hand. Now, a lot of them were motivated to ultimately get them to Eretz Yisrael to help establish a country by ha- push at having more people, but they were in that bias, meaning, "We're here to save you. You wanna go to Eretz Yisrael? I'm gonna help you out. We'll get you there. We're gonna get you to British Mandate Palestine if you'd like." Um, by no means did they, uh, say, you know, uh, "I'm only helping you out tonight, you come..." No, it was nothing like that. And these were mamish, mamish, uh, tzadikim that helped refugees, um, escape. I even have a photo of them sitting around typewriters, you know, creating falsified documentation, 'cause every single country you need it. So now how are you gonna get now from Austria to Germany? How are you gonna get from Czechoslovakia? Every little step along the way. Um, yeah.

1:33:58 Speaker 7 Okay, perfect. It's amazing. What did you discover about the life of Hasidim in Pucking?

1:34:04 Speaker 1 Hmm. Life of Hasidim in Pucking. So here's something that's actually very insightful to both my grandfather and great-grandfather. My great-grandfather, like I said, was a shochet. My Zayde actually lived, but was also a shochet. So imagine the following: You're coming out of the woods, and you finally come to the safety, the safety of a DP camp. Yeah, you're sleeping on a cot, no problem. You have zero privacy. Uh, but you're not dead, so that's wonderful, and you're not being chased any longer. Rav Zalman was not very pleased that a lot of the Hasidim were easy to trust the shochet. They set up shochet facilities. The, the Vaad Hatzalah, along with The Joint, set up sh- shochet facilities, but it all comes down to the shochets. And he wasn't terribly... And now I, I, I don't fault the Hasidim. They're starving. They probably haven't had a piece of chicken in years. I mean, I, I, I'm, I don't fault them. I'm just telling you maaseh shehaya how it was. So, so first they tried to compel Rav Zalman and say, "Come on, it's fine. You know, look, look, look, look at their appearance." And he's like, "Well," "it doesn't matter about their religious attire. That's, that's not how, uh, that's not how we judge shochet." Anyway, um, Rav Lipa, my Zayde, stood up, it was right before Rosh Hashanah, and everyone was obviously dependent on the, on the meat, and basically said, "We're gonna have a milcheves, uh, Rosh Hashanah until this is worked out." And,

1:35:25 Speaker 1 uh, so it was. So they ate milcheves for Rosh Hashanah, and, um, and after, right quickly afterward, they, you know, they resolved it. It's unclear if they, you know, who they appointed, but, uh, Reb Yisroel Nevaler, in his exact words, said that the only shochet that he, and he recommends every single Lubavitcher to only eat this from Rav Zalman. And, uh, Rav Zalman at the time was, uh, one of the rosh yeshivas in the yeshiva in Pucking. I ac- I actually have, this is not from a Lubavitch source, which is amazing, meaning to say, uh, you know, one would assume, "Oh, you probably got this from the Rebbe's library." Nothing of the... There's tremendous amount of things I have from var- various other sources. Uh, this I believe it's... Again, my, my sources are on the, on, in the, in the credit section. I have the entire I have a five-page report concerning Yeshivas Tzemach Tzedek and its associated divisions in the Pucking DP camp. So I have a thing about the operation expenses, I have about the list of bochurim, then I have the hanhalah. So in the hanhalah, you see very clearly that the menaal is, uh, Reb Nissim Nemanov, and then you have right over here on, um, on line nine, you see the Rosh Yeshiva for Shir Base is Harav, uh, Zalman Vilenkin. So he was busy in the yeshiva teaching. It, it's unclear to me how he had time to also be a part of the shochet. Maybe he helped

1:36:38 Speaker 1 with, um, training or observation. It's a little bit unclear. But also they set up an entire, an entire thing for Rabbonim and shochrim, so maybe that quickly resolved itself once they trained a tremendous amount of Hasidim to be. And there's photos and documentation about what that, what that was all about, 'cause their goal was obviously to give them stability and enable them to have jobs. They didn't just sit around the DP camp, you know, playing checkers. Like, everyone kept busy and worried about their future. Um, so, so in the DP camp, um, Lubavitchers basically if, you know, for the first time, were free. Uh, they, they finally were able to celebrate in, in true freedom. They set up yeshivas, they set up chadarim, and, and, and girls' schools as well, and, and you see visuals and documentation for, for every single one of this. Um, and it's, it's a breath of fresh air. It really, really, after you read the first section of the book and ring about, realizing about the incredible oppression being under, and finally being able to enter this free world where you could practice. One of my favorite photos, I, I... There-- Oh, there's a photo of Rebbetzin Chana, which I'll allow the, the readers to enjoy, and I discuss Rebbetzin Chana, about her experiences in the DP camp, how she got out, and, um, and reunited with the Rebbe, um, from the perspective of, of the Lubavitchers in the DP camp. Obviously, it's written about tremendously, but there's an incredible

1:37:51 Speaker 1 photo on Simchat Torah with, with, um, Reb Dovid Bravman. So this photo, why is there a photo in Simchat Torah? Again, The Joint had to take photos to fundraise hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to help out our brethren in the DP camps. So there's a great photo-

1:38:06 Speaker 7 Yeah

1:38:06 Speaker 1 ... um, of Reb Dovid on Simchat Torah, nacha v'salachaim, and you see he has, like, his tallis. You know, his tallis is half on. It's, it was funny. Cracks me up. Nothing changes.

1:38:18 Speaker 7 Right.

1:38:19 Speaker 1 This photo's from 1947. He could've been walking out in 2017.

1:38:21 Speaker 7 When I, when I saw that, that, when I saw that picture, that was, like, my thought. That that's, that's a Simchat Torah pose.

1:38:27 Speaker 1 Right. So he has his daughter-

1:38:28 Speaker 7 Is he holding a bottle of mashka?

1:38:30 Speaker 1 He... No, he has his daughter. It's his daughter. It looks like a bottle of mashka 'cause he's clenching his fist as if.

1:38:34 Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

1:38:34 Speaker 1 So his... If you look very closely, it's just his fist, and his daughter's in his other hand. He's holding her. His tallis is, like, halfway off. Um, and it's, it's, it's, it's an incredible photo. It's finally someone could celebrate, and they're not in some basement, sheva basement, you know, shtil it hey, doing hakafos. It's, it's, it's unbelievable. It's, it's one of the most powerful photos in the entire book. Um, so Pucking was, was their first, um, avenue to freedom, and, uh, and, um, and this really enabled them to get back on their feet. They had... They, you know, there's... They received clothing and food and, and, and, uh, and re- uh, a-and the bochurim. Think, think about the bochurim for a second. Most of them, through the hardship of war, didn't even learn in a yeshiva or, or learn properly prior to the war in Russia, who had the opportunity. So they had to reestablish yeshiva that didn't, Hashem, the older bochurim that didn't have a chance. 'Cause if you're younger, it makes sense. You're in shul. If you're brand new, we don't expect you to know much, so to speak. But not everyone had the privilege like my Zayde, even though his hardship of running around to the underground yeshivas was, was arduous, but at least he had the privilege of learning. A lot of people didn't even have that opportunity. And at this point, they're, they're, they're semi... You know, they're quite elderly. So they, they were very strategic in making sure that

1:39:46 Speaker 1 everyone was able to learn at their level while also making sure no one's farshemt, 'cause you may have someone who, "I'm already 18, I feel silly learning with a 14-year-old." So they would make a shiur for them, for other 18-year-olds who, due to hardship of war and communism, were, were not up to par. And-

1:40:02 Speaker 7 And the, the generation that, uh, we grew up in, some of our mashpiyim in yeshiva learned in these in Techeton, in Pucking. So it's like, uh-

1:40:12 Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. And, and you see in the photos, um, and I, I... This was one of the hardest parts is getting everybody's name. You could see one photo with 15 names. Uh, you could imagine what it took to identify everyone correctly. Um, sometimes I would do it based on look. Like, "Okay, this looks like a so-and-so."

1:40:32 Speaker 7 Right. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful. So let's move on to Cleveland. So your, your grand-- Zalman Volinkin and your grandparents came to the-- They came the same time. They were, they were-

1:40:45 Speaker 1 Around the same time.

1:40:46 Speaker 7 They came the same time.

1:40:46 Speaker 1 Yeah. So they made it out of Pucking to Paris. Paris was meant to be-

1:40:49 Speaker 7 To Paris. But then they came to Paris to, to United States at the same time as well?

1:40:53 Speaker 1 Yeah. Paris in the same short period of time. Uh-

1:40:56 Speaker 7 Okay. So I know there's a lot of rich history with, you mentioned Rabbi Zalman and your grandfather in Cleveland, and what they were doing there with Tels, et cetera. Maybe you could talk about that.

1:41:10 Speaker 1 Sure. And I'll give you some stuff that didn't make it into the book.

1:41:13 Speaker 7 You do?

1:41:14 Speaker 1 Not be-not because there's anything wrong with it. It's becau-- I'll get to it. So, uh, these, um, immigrants are coming from, uh, Paris. Paris was meant to be a short six-week stint. Ended up being for them six years. Reb Zalman was only because of his, of his frail health, and then Shapiro's push it for gathering papers. Interestingly, my Zayde, Reb Lipa's sister, Sarah Relka Gopin, they actually got their papers early. They ended up going to Eretz Yisrael. They actually thought, "Okay, whatever paper comes, we'll just-- maybe we'll end up in Eretz Yisrael." It wasn't, it wasn't like today where choices. Anyway, um, in 1953, first Reb Zalman, along with his wife and, uh, one of his daughters and son-in-law, they, they get-- they go first, and then my Zayde, my Zayde, Lipa's brother, which, uh, Livicha, um, he and his family, um, also went. This is all in the same very short period of time. Um, they actually received letters in Paris from Livicha about America, and a few of the things are just interesting. One was the amazement. When you go to a supermarket, you get a bag. When you go to the cleaners, they give it back to you on a hanger. The Golden Medina.

1:42:23 Speaker 7 That's funny.

1:42:24 Speaker 1 Yeah. So I document those letters where he's writing what's America like. Um, Reb Lipa comes to the United States, similarly to Reb Zalman, stops in Crown Heights, stays with his old friend, Reb Shiakorf, who he knows from Kremenchuk. Have some fas-fascinating stuff on Reb Shiakorf in the DP camp as well.

1:42:41 Speaker 7 Is Reb Shiakorf in Yekatirinislav?

1:42:43 Speaker 1 Um, no. I-- No. I, at least, I, I don't believe so. Reb Shiakorf, uh, um, my Zayde Lipa, uh, learned with him, or rather under him in Kremenchuk.

1:42:55 Speaker 7 Okay.

1:42:56 Speaker 1 So when he comes to Crown Heights, uh, he stayed by him for those few days, uh, on en route to Cleveland. They come into Yechidas, and I elaborate in detail. Uh, one interesting thing I wanna note about the Yechidas, where Reb Lipa obviously wants to, my Zayde wants to be in Crown Heights. Who doesn't? And he actually asked the Rebbe, "Should I, um, should I just stay?" And the Rebbe said, "Definitely not. ‹Al tere cheretz› for the joint. They not only brought you here to the United States, but they have you set up in Cleveland." And the Rebbe said, more importantly, and this is what's his shlichus, that Cleveland should know as a ‹chasidit sin shtat›. Like, the Rebbe basically said, "Don't... Like, go to Cleveland. You have a tremendous shlichus, um, to do there." But he did for a moment say, you know. Now, mind you, the pragmatically, the joint housed you and gave you, uh, you know, a stipend to live, and they got you on your feet, and they just didn't have the opportunity to just place every single person in Brooklyn. It wasn't, it wasn't that simplistic in terms of visas and all that kind of stuff. They would if they could. It wasn't that easy. Anyway, so Reb Lipa comes in 1953, and while he's there, as you say, he has his brother, he has his, his father, his father, Reb Noach, my namesake, and he has, uh, he has his ‹shver›. And, uh, basically the entire Shapiro Volankin family

1:44:04 Speaker 1 in the early '50s is in Cleveland. Like I said earlier, um, Cleveland, um, uh, the biggest, I guess, there was a lot of institutions and a lot of shuls, and Frumkite was already, um, pretty well-established. Uh, the Hebrew Academy, which is like their primary, um, cheder, um, at that point was fifty percent refugees. A lot of American-born, but fifty percent children of refugees. There was also a Kalavar Yeshiva, the Kalavar Rebbe, who later on moved to Eretz Yisrael. He lived in Cleveland for a period of time. I have photos of him with some talmidim as well. Um, that was like, I guess you could say the Hasidish cheder. Um, but that closed down. So, uh, my uncles started off there. Some of them, the older ones, started off there, and then when that closed down, they moved to Hebrew Academy, which is also, um, um, you know, Haredi yeshiva. Um, it was under the, the Desslers, um, which was more, you know, yeshivish. Uh, they're-- These are the children of the famous, uh, Rav Dessler. They're the ones that established, um, the Hebrew Academy. Sometimes people say Hebrew Academy, do you think sort of like a Chabad house school? Hebrew Academy here meant it was like their version of Olatira. It was, uh, maybe it started out as a day school, but it quickly shifted to more, uh, Haredi yeshiva. And so there was Hebrew Academy, and then you had a bunch of Frum shuls. There was Taylor Road Synagogue and Eddie Road Synagogue and,

1:45:14 Speaker 1 uh, and you had Shmiras Shabbos. But, but Tels Yeshiva, in terms of the broader audience, would be the biggest, most, uh, world-renowned. I actually had a fantastic interview with... Let me back up. I j- I jumped too quickly. So he comes to Cleveland. There's Taylor Life. This is the part that didn't make it into the book. Push it because it was very hard to validate every nuance. I heard four different versions of the story, and it wasn't very clear. Anyway, what do you do when you come to a new town? First thing you do is check out the meistes. So, uh, so my Zayde goes and tries to, you know, hears about, you know, this, this yeshiva, this Tels Yeshiva. And, um, it's, this is the part that's vague. So I'm gonna clarify all the vagueness and sort of give you the bigger picture. It's a little bit vague, but something to the degree where some of the other yeshivas were doing what you would call simple things. Like maybe he saw one yeshiva like mowing his lawn. Not mowing, sorry, watering his lawn. And another Rosh Yeshiva, like the boys were playing ball, sort of sitting nearby and maybe talking with them, maybe even playing with them. It was, it was-- That part was incredibly vague because I did a bunch of interviews, and because it was, it was not clear, I left it out. But I think the bigger picture stands, that at first he was a little bit surprised, like, "A Rosh

1:46:21 Speaker 1 Yeshiva like watering his lawn or doing mundane things?" He never heard of such things. "Bitul Torah, who are these people?" And he admitted very, very quickly that, uh, that that was a mistake. These people are incredible people, and he as a, uh, as a refugee coming from a different place, didn't really acclimate to A-America, that it wasn't the biggest sin to water your lawn. It wasn't such a big Bitul Torah. Anyway, um, Telshe Yeshiva was nearby where they lived, so Reb Zalman would, uh, give Shiurim. They, they-- Did they know who he was? It appears. I don't have... You know, I s- I, I spoke to Rabbi Gifter. Mordechai Gifter was one of the Rosh Yeshiva. Like the-- It sounds like him and Rabbi Sorotzkin were like the two Rosh Yeshivahs in Telshe. And I've spoken to Rabbi Gifter's son, Binyamin, s- told me something very interesting. This part, the only that part I mentioned is not in the book, but this part is, where Rabbi Gifter realized very quickly who Reb Lippa is. Actually, in that interview I was telling you about, the video interview, he said in English, 'cause the whole interview was in Yiddish, but my Zayde paused and said, "Oh, Rav Gifter, my best friend." That he's switching to English for that one. Maybe because Rav Gifter was an American.

1:47:27 Speaker 7 He was American, yeah.

1:47:28 Speaker 1 Yeah, very American. Um, even though he spoke an incredible Yiddish. But he said, "Ah, my best friend," and with a big smile. If anybody wants that interview, I'll happily share it. So, so, so Binyamin told me that his father realized immediately what kind of gaon Reb Lippa is. This is, this is someone who's incredible. So he, he set Binyamin up to learn with him, teach him Chumash and Chazarah from Cheder. And he said it was twofold: one, to not pass up on an opportunity to, to grab him, you know, while he's still available. Eventually, you'd get more busy, get more established with a job. But also to give parnasah to, to a new refugee, because it, you know, it took a minute to get on your feet and 'cause eventually he was a shochet, but I don't think these were overnight sensations. Um, I have incredible pictures of Rabbi Sorotzkin, the other Rosh Yeshiva of Telshe at my Uncle Gavril, Rav Gavril Shapiro's bar mitzvah. Um, Rav Gifter, punk, was out of town for that bar mitzvah, so he's not, you don't see him in those photos. You see his wife at my pr- at my father's bar mitzvah. The point is that my Zayde was very close with Rav Gifter and, uh, Rabbi Sorotzkin and the, and, and those at Telshe. And I have great pictures of the Telshe bochurim at a Purim farbrengen with my Zayde. Absolutely phenomenal. So he would give Shiurim and Gemara to them and into this. A lot more

1:48:47 Speaker 1 detail as to the nature of like what happened in these Gemarot. You could only imagine, what do you mean? They have their own, they have their own derech and, you know, very insightful stuff about... So you could just imagine a Lubavitcher Talmid Chacham teaching bochurim who obviously are well learned what, what life was like, uh, in that. So, but he had active Shiurim the entire time he was there and very involved, um, with Telshe Yeshiva. They had an incredible mutual respect and, um, honestly, a shtickel utopian. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, you know.

1:49:17 Speaker 7 Say something that hasn't been recreated, you know.

1:49:20 Speaker 1 I think now. I think there was a shtickel pause, let's put it mildly. There was a pause. Um, and, and thankfully, it's, I believe now or the last several years, recreated to have an incredible mutual respect and really, uh, benefiting from each other. And, um, he loved the bochurim.

1:49:37 Speaker 7 Well, you also write about, uh, you write about, um, Rav Gifter and the Rebbe, right?

1:49:42 Speaker 1 Yes. Yes. There's actually a chapter called Reb Lippa and Rav Gifter. Uh, a lot of correspondence, and my Zayde was the facilitator. There is tachit a letter, which I, I didn't put in 'cause it was extre-extremely unrelated, but it's interesting. You could find it quickly in Igros on, on the website. There is a letter where Gifter asked the Rebbe a few questions. Um, so there definitely was direct correspondence. But in terms of other correspondence, uh, I, I highly encourage you to read that tremendous chapter called Rav Gifter and Reb Lippa about, uh, my Zayde being the facilitator between the two. Um, absolutely fascinating. I think it'll give tremendous insight of what they were able to accomplish then, and thankfully, what I believe we're accomplishing today as well. A lot of, a lot of, uh, incredible relationships that, that, that are happening these days. It's like I said, there was a bit of a downtime, uh, historically between then and now, but I, I think we're back and stronger than ever. So in Cleveland, in Cleveland, um, in addition to the Telshe Yeshiva and the shuls, my Zayde was involved in everything. Basically, i-in modern terminology, it would be, it would be shlichus. So you name it, the mikvah, uh, kashrus, um, everything from, uh, farbrengens, and he would do an, an annual Yahrtzeit kislei farbrengen and make sure all the Rabbonim, all the Rabbonim were there. Um, and, uh, uh, again, the list is quite substantial, but you'll see it in the book of every

1:50:59 Speaker 1 facet of Jewish life that he was involved with. Um, there was a lot of correspondence co- you know, about the Rebbe, uh, a tremendous amount of correspondence from the Rebbe about different, different activities and different individuals to make sure to take care of everything from shalom bayis to helping the makar of this individual or that individual. And he established Tzach, um, in Cleveland. His home address was the, uh, letterhead headquarters. So, so while in Cleveland, um, he was incredibly busy. Mind you, he was a shochet professionally full-time. That's how he paid his bills. Um, but he was involved in every facet of Jewish life, um, while in Cleveland. And the, the chapter, I think, if I had to almost like give you a bigger picture... Oh, there's one more person before I give you a bigger picture, was Rabbi, Rabbi Yisroel Peiros, who was there for 50 years. A tr-tremendous individual, has many, many seforim and on Shas. And the Rebbe in Yechidus told my Zayde, "By the way, me-mention to Rabbi Peiros that, that I have all of his seforim, and I really, really enjoy them. I think even something like when is he coming out with the next one?" And, uh, Rabbi Peiros and my Zayde, he was the head of the, of the, of the Mirker Rabbonim. So, so Cleveland, just like any other, you know, major frum city had- Had, uh, Rabbonim, and he was, he was the head of Merkos L'Inyonei Chareidim for, you know, for forty, fifty years. He

1:52:16 Speaker 1 would speak every year at the Yutras Kislev Shabrangan, and he would ask all his shailas on why the Alter Rebbe did this and that, and there, and my zeide would ask the Rebbe, "In yechidus taka," if he didn't have the answer to the question, and then he would deliver it back to Rabbi Peres, and it's all in the book. And, um, and so this is just an example of the kind of relationships and the kind of honestly incredibleness that was going on in Cleveland at the time between Lubavitch and the broader, and the broader Jewish community.

1:52:42 Speaker 7 Okay. It's beautiful, and it really gives you a window into... I mean, the Rebbe was encouraging your grandfather to do all these activities.

1:52:49 Speaker 1 Absolutely.

1:52:50 Speaker 7 It gives you a w-- It gives you a window of, like when he wanted to be in Crown Heights, they said, "No, go there." And this is, I guess this is, this is before shlichas is institutionalized, but the Rebbe, you know, a Lubavitcher, Youngerman, London, et cetera, Rav, I guess, being there, um, how much influence he can have on the community. It's amazing. Um, okay. So I wanna ask you, I think we'll end off with this, is I wanna hear about the, the work that you've done on your father. But before that, is there anything, any other areas of the book you wanna just highlight before we, before I get to that?

1:53:28 Speaker 1 Yeah. So the first, uh, four hundred and forty pages of the book, you know, start with the, the 1800s hardship of Russia and go all the way until, uh, you know, like I said, the Great Escape, and Tashkent, and, uh, and Pucking. And, um, so I think the overarching idea of all of that was the incredible mesirus nefesh and the hardship that they went through during that time period, and ultimately having the, the heart and the, the gumption. I, I, I, you know, the speechlessness is there when you see what they went through to reestablish the, reestablish themselves in the United States and not, and not budge an inch. Coming to America, continuing with the same fire, the same bren, and making sure that they, that they have a tremendous Chassidisha family. Um, and like I said, it's, it's really the story of Lubavitch history over the last hundred years, and quite frankly, on a broader perspective, it's Jewish history. This is what Yidden had to endure over the centuries, essentially since Mount Sinai. And I think the biggest insightful takeaway from that whole piece was what they set up for us. I think it's a little bit hard to look around and chap. They set that up for us. The refugees paved the foundation for every beneficial thing we have today. I don't discredit the massive yeshivas, and the beautiful shuls, and the crazy phenomenal mikvaos, et cetera. Just I think that the reader will walk away and realize that this entire foundation was

1:54:53 Speaker 1 all paved by the refugees that first came here because Chas v'Shalom, 'cause unfortunately you see these stories, they make a tiny left turn, it's all gone. All of it. One tiny left turn, "Okay, we're in America. Okay, we're in America, and, uh, these, these things perhaps are not so important, you know, maybe, uh..." So it's almost like, uh, the best example I could give is imagine you, um, I don't know, you're trying to, you have a, you have a gun, and you need to hit something on a mountain. You gotta hit a soda can on a mountain five, you know, a thousand miles away. All it takes is a tiny millimeter off, and forget about it. That is the equivalency. You come to the United States, and if you're not a bazillion percent on target, then whole next generation shifts in a drastically different direction. And that is my, one of my incredible-

1:55:39 Speaker 7 That's what happened the previous generations of people came to America. Yeah.

1:55:43 Speaker 1 Correct. So the fact that coming to America and being steadfast in their mission drastically changed everything for them and their future generations.

1:55:51 Speaker 7 Beautiful. Okay. So like I said, I wanna ask you about your father, and you already mentioned right in the beginning, um, the emotional component to writing about your father. And you know, when I was growing up, um, I was in Ohel Torah, and there was a big picture of your father as the, uh, previous, uh, Skver Rebbe now of Ohel Torah. But I didn't know much about him till I read it in the book, and, uh, maybe you could talk a little bit about him and give us a little taste.

1:56:23 Speaker 1 So my father definitely picked up on his father and, uh, and his grandparents, and definitely continued, uh, their legacy. My father was born in Paris in 1949, came to the United States as a young child, grew up in Cleveland, went to Kahl River, and then went to Keiber Academy, and then went to Bedford and Dean, and then went to Newark in 1770, and got married in 1972. So you already know all about his, all about his background. I, over the years, like I told at the beginning, you know, bumped into a lot of people that would give me mild, mild, mild, you know, nuggets here and there. And this, honestly, this, uh, foray into this, uh, publication, um, I guess you could say took what I already knew, but definitely bolstered it and enabled me to, to, to really, really bring him to life. And the, the, the, his activities in Chinuch is, is one, one unique facet, but even more so, he didn't stop in the classroom. He was incredibly involved in all the families, um, in all the families as well, and was always able to see bigger picture. It wasn't like there's a conversation with a child, and it kind of ends as soon as the classroom door closes. Rabbi Mordechai Eltan, alav ha-shalom, uh, was sent by the Fyvte Rebbe to establish day schools around the United States, but ultimately he settled in the Bronx, which of course at the time was a, was a tremendous Jewish community. So when my

1:57:44 Speaker 1 father got married in 1972, Rabbi Eltan recruited him to, uh, teach in his, to teach in his, uh, in hi- his school called the Bobov Yeshiva of the Bronx. At the time, the Bobov Yeshiva of the Bronx/Achei Tmenim was a, was a boys' school, and then he ended up opening a girls' school as well called Beis Hana. So my father was the principal of Beis Hana when that opened, and then was also a rebbe in, uh, in Achei Tmenim in, in the boys' division. Um, he did that for several years until ultimately the Bronx community drastically changed, and therefore the school unfortunately had to, had to close down. The point is, the bigger picture is that my, my father's breitskeit, and really not, not in like a flashy manner, was able to see like the larger picture of every child and the family that they're coming from, and the kind of engagement in the family. So when the school day was over, he would meet in parents' homes, not just about their children's education, of course, but more so about the frum and to give shiurim and to answer questions, and he was extremely involved in their family life. Um, so as, um, e-even though he was, uh, teaching their children, but he expanded far beyond that. And, um, one tremendous family that we're extremely fortunate to be mamish like family with till today is Dr. Feldman and their family who my father met in the Bronx. He taught their children. He taught their children

1:59:03 Speaker 1 and became, uh, the family mashpia. And there's tremendous amount of information in the book, um, from my interviews with the Feldman children about all of that. I don't wanna give all of it away, but I think my, my point is that I'm giving you this bigger picture that he didn't just sort of s- you know, teach their children. Um, he was extremely involved in the families as well. Um, even when Lubavitch Yeshiva, the Bronx was, uh, let's just say s- you know, n-needing to unfortunately close down, um, plus, uh, it was time where the Feldman family was moving to Crown Heights, my father, um, made sure that they caught up and were well acclimated to come to a proper Lubavitch cheder coming from a day school. So being really, really involved, um, in their lives and, and many families' lives. W- uh, one of the Feldman children told me probably one of the best stories in the entire book. So my father was extremely close with the Feldmans, but didn't just kaveyachol, to put it in simple words, "Okay, now you're frum. Go to Seven Seventy, get pushed around, and, uh, enjoy." So Rabbi Binyamin Klein had told, I think it was, um, uh, pardon me, it slips my mind who he mentioned it to, but Rabbi Binyamin Klein said beshem the Rebbe that he wishes there was more people like my father who was so close with the baal teshuva family, enabling them to acclimate and actually be a part of the community. They

2:00:23 Speaker 1 should never-- They shouldn't feel like, uh, you know, second-class chas v'shalom outsiders. And it wasn't like my father, you know, told the Rebbe every, uh, I'm sure he wrote a duch, of course, but in saying that f- that was tremendous for me that, uh, Rabbi Dr. Dovid Feldman shared with me that Rabbi Binyamin Klein told him about that. So just the, the bigger picture of my father's worldview and method of operation was meant that we're all, we're all Lubavitch, we're all Lubavitch Chabad. We're all Yidden, and, and he really felt and, and, and lived that his entire life. And then later on, when it was time for the Feldman children to get married, and again, you know, we're not talking about, you know, twenty twenty-six. We're talking about the eighties. Life was a little bit different. We're a, you know, a baal teshuva family. It wasn't very, very common, um, for someone who comes from a baal teshuva family to marry someone who is a longstanding Lubavitch. And, uh, my father, let's just say, advocated and made it happen. And, um, ultimately, ultimately when the engagement happened, because Dr. Feldman's family and specifically in, in this case, uh, his daughter, Sara, was close with the rebbetzin. So Sara, when she told the rebbetzin that she's engaged to Levi Shemtov, and the rebbetzin was very, very happy and gave brochos and said many beautiful things. But the point is that was right after they were engaged. So I guess, I guess that was the breakthrough where

2:01:49 Speaker 1 they got engaged, and now they have the rebbetzin's haskama. And, uh, but the point is that, that, that's how my father operated. And the same thing, he always had Shabbos guests from Adat Yera. Not to say other people didn't, chas v'shalom. I'm not, I'm just here to talk, talk about my father. Uh, I'm sure many people in Crown Heights did, and he kept those close friendships for many a year. I interviewed some people from Adat Yera who my father was giving brachah achritah at their wedding, and that's how close he was with them because, um, he would always have them for Shabbosim. And, and, um, and, uh, another family interview mentioned that at his wedding, um, even though he studied at Adat Yera, but he mamish wasn't like coming from a not frum background, more like, like very, very modern. So the person was extremely familiar with Yiddishkeit but incredibly lost at this, uh, at this Lubavitch wedding. And my father basically glued himself to him and made him feel comfortable the entire evening, making sure that he didn't feel lost at his own child's wedding and, you know, getting lost in the crowd. So in the Bronx, my father, like I said, was involved tremendously with the children and their families and really did not have-- took the Rebbe's perspective and took his family's perspective that, that, uh, that Baruch Hashem were blessed to be one large family. Eventually, like I said, the Bronx closed down, uh, because the neighborhood changed. Rabbi Yankel Hecht,

2:03:02 Speaker 1 Rabbi Zeidy Hecht quickly got my father because it was exactly the same time when the Persians were escaping from Iran, the children, the famous story. He set up a yeshiva, which lasted about a year, up until the children were able to reestablish themselves with family. So he grabbed him for that one year to teach 'cause he was available now that the Bronx closed. And then-- And I have a small, a very, very small, but I interviewed some, uh, some people on that, um, era as well, even though communication was tough, but my father really, really cared and did everything he could to see to it that the children were comfortable. And, um, he even brought a few children into yechidas for their bar mitzvah. So in nineteen eighty-one, yechidas was not extremely popular, but the Rebbe took yechidas from the Persian children, and he brought in about four or five boys for their bar mitzvah. And thanks to Rabbi Harlik in Upland, who has just tremendous foresight, he see-- he's my father walking up the steps in Seven Seventy with a bunch of boys and said, "Where are you going?" He's like, "Actually, I'm going to yechidas." "What?" He throws a recorder in his pocket. 'Cause I asked Rabbi Harlik later, like, "How, how did that come about?" He's like, "No, your father was just passing by, and I threw it in his pocket, and it's recorded." This yechidas from nineteen eighty-one is recorded. I transcribe it, and I put it in the book. Of

2:04:07 Speaker 1 course, after the yechidas, my father, um, elaborated to the children exactly what the Rebbe said, but they would-- So he treated them as if a father would take in their children for yechidas. Rabbi Yankel Hecht's yeshiva, uh, of course, like I said, quickly closed down. Alei Tora quickly recruits him. And, uh, this is a big shift because my father always taught in day school environments. He actually interviewed some of my cousins who were, who were attending Alei Tora. He mildly interv-- didn't, didn't disclose why, but sort of wanted to understand how Alei Tora operates. And he took his, let's call it day school perspective or Shapiro perspective, whatever you wanna call it, took that same exact measure and came to Alei Tora. And in Alei Tora, he mamish was a phenomenal contributor. He started off as a melamed. I hear incredible stories, and they're in the book about his talmidim saying his outside-the-box perspective, always positive, uh, uh, making sure that the, that the, that the, that the Yiddishkeit is, is dripping in their bones with joy, with joy. You know, different generations operated differently, so it wasn't like, um, in a way of like, you know, mentoshnish and things of that It was very much about, wow, the privilege and the zechus that we have to have a Rebbe and to have Chassidus and to have a teyrah. And he was very, very, uh, operated very optimistically. And there's an incredible amount of him in Ohel Torah, and as well as the families and

2:05:30 Speaker 1 the things that he would do behind the scenes for the community, because obviously, as a melamed, you get very, very quick insight into the nature of hardships of people's families, and being able to, um, being able to attend to those hardships. One tiny story. There's too many, so I'm gonna give you one tiny story. There's a-- I heard this firsthand from the person it happened with. So the boy, a boy comes off. It's, it's freezing in the winter. A boy comes off the bus, walks into Ohel Torah. My father-- At, at this point, my father wasn't even the assistant principal. He was a, he was a teacher. He sees the boy's without a coat. He sees the boy without a coat. He grabs another boy, may- like his friend. He pulls him aside, slips him some cash, and says, "You need to go to Chazanub's right now, walk with him, and go buy him a coat." And he wasn't even in, in his class. Uh, the boy that told me was the boy that my father gave the cash to. It wasn't like there was some Ohel Torah fund. I'm sure Ohel Torah had its own financial hardships, you know, trying to educate hundreds and hundreds of boys, and nobody's paying tuition. I mean, like, I, I don't think that they had a fund for clothing. And, um, the kids are-- That's only like one, one like, uh, tiny component, and then being very involved. So I have a chapter, a chapter on that, uh,

2:06:34 Speaker 1 specifically about Ohel Torah and all his involvement in the children. I have a separate chapter specifically about the community affairs, um, what he was involved with in, in seeing to it that, uh, with derech eretz. Another incredible thing that surfaced in my research was, I think Rabbi Lustig. Rabbi Lustig, uh, the principal of Ohel Torah for many, many decades, an incredible individual. He was very, very helpful. I interviewed him. He said, "Your father smiled a lot, but, um, on this day, he smiled more than ever." What happened was somebody in the community, actually quite financially, uh, well off, was going through tremendo fin-- tremendous financial hardship, and he needed serious funds to get back on his feet. The problem is he writes into the Rebbe, "Here's the problem. If I go to a gemach, or, um, in five minutes, it's gonna get out that this very, very successful person is doing very poorly." And what happens is that if you're in business and people get wind that you're not doing well, they just stop doing business with you because perhaps you're, you're not stable enough to work with, it's too risky, and loshon hara travels very, very quickly. So he, he felt he's cornered. What am I supposed to do? Obviously, he, uh, it sounds like the bank wasn't an option, and he couldn't go-- he felt, he felt he couldn't go to a gemach, and, uh, he felt he couldn't just, you know, approach, you know, certain gvirim. He doesn't know what to do.

2:07:48 Speaker 1 And the Rebbe said, "Go to a Liv-- Go, go to Levitcha Shapiro. Go to Levitcha Shapiro. He will see to it that you'll procure the funds needed to reestablish yourself with derech eretz and with dignity." And Rabbi Lustig was telling me, "I saw your father, like he, he was beaming." And of course, my father took the privilege, hopped to it, enabled this person to, uh, he was able to solicit funds. Nobody knew where the money was going to. The person, thank goodness, successfully got back on his feet, paid back the money, and Baruch Hashem, had a very successful career and, uh, got back on his feet. That's a, a story that Rabbi Lustig shared with me. Mind you-

2:08:28 Speaker 8 Mm-hmm

2:08:28 Speaker 1 ... this is a man in Chinuch, and the Rebbe is saying-

2:08:31 Speaker 8 The Rebbe is sending someone to him.

2:08:33 Speaker 1 Someone to him-

2:08:33 Speaker 8 Yeah

2:08:33 Speaker 1 ... 'cause he knows that it, it will not only get done but get done with derech eretz, which is obviously the, the highest level of tzedakah, just, just before giving someone a job. So-

2:08:43 Speaker 8 Amazing. And I remember one story that I saw is that, um, after the Rebbe came out with mitzvah meleches, everyone knows that in school, it's a big to-do, you know. Um, I don't know how it works today, but there are donuts, you know.

2:08:55 Speaker 1 Yeah.

2:08:55 Speaker 8 You come to class, and, um, uh, my s- my kids are in a different school, but they're, they're still doing donuts. I don't know what's happening in Ohel Torah. But apparently, Rabbi Chadakov called your father after the Rebbe came out with mitzvah meleches and told him that it's kedai to make a whole big deal out of it in the school. So your father, based on that, instituted the whole birthday party celebrations that happen in, in all the classrooms.

2:09:20 Speaker 1 Correct. He hopped to it and did it same day. And it was the exact equivalency when Mitzvah Neshek came out while he was in the Bronx. He immediately by hand wrote up a brochure. Obviously, there was a lot of activity in Crown Heights and tremendous people that, uh, propelled Mitzvah Neshek. I'm just explaining what my father did in the Bronx. This, th- immediately before Shabbos, created a, a, a quick, uh, handwritten brachos in English and translation, transliteration, very, let's call it Chabad house friendly, with the zmanim, immediately made copies, and every single girl and mother affiliated with the school, uh, immediately got that handwritten, uh, Xerox copy of, of what to do, um, inside Mitzvah Neshek. So my father, um, he did everything with extreme passion. Honestly, I, I, I would lovingly say that I, I definitely carry that trait. Like anyone that sees the book realizes I put a tremendous, tremendous amount of love and hard work into it. It's not a small kuntres. It's very big. It's a very expensive print. It is, it is a thick, l- hard cop-- You know, it's, it's n-not just phys-- I'm explaining physically, and also when you open it up, the tremendous detail 'cause I, I don't underst-- I don't have this perspective of doing things, you know, uh, half-baked or small, uh, to my, to my detriment or to my, uh, you know, goodness, chvesnish. But the point is that, that, uh, it's, it's, it's incredibly, uh, thorough and well done, no half-baked. And my

2:10:49 Speaker 1 father definitely had that exact same perspective. Um, and when it came to Mishnayos Ba'al Peh, which is obviously a Bavust. We always do Mishnayos Ba'al Peh. That's not novel to Lubavitch, but he took Ohel Torah's pre-existing program And Kav Yaakov blew it up, turned it into this massive thing, encouraging the boys outside of class to, to «Chazen Mishnayos Baal Peh» and brought the boys by their Rebbe, because it was a gift for, for the Rebbe for Yahrzeit Nissan. There's a whole section in the book just on Mishnayos Baal Peh. We're talking about already the mems. So these are gonna be people you recognize. I mean, most of them are, are zaydes at the-- Some of them are zaydes. That's how close it is. Not even everyone's a zayde in there. And Mishnayos Baal Peh, um, you know, going everything from how he inspired the boys to make this a big, you know, strong part of their identity because he knows that they will be able to carry this, you know, through their entire lives. So my father's work in Alei Teyreh, um, was very, very passion heavy. Uh, even in the morning, he facilitated Shacharis, and this is another part of an interview in there as well, where he would «chazer» over HaYom Yom, but he would chazer it over like he's living it. It wouldn't, wouldn't, uh, today's HaYom Yom and such, it was nothing like that. It would be the HaYom Yom with the background stories and, and how it, how it's applicable

2:12:03 Speaker 1 to us, et cetera. So yeah, my father did not do anything, um, half-baked and, um, and really believed in all the things that he did. He was a very, very passionate person. So when it came to community affairs or came to things with the children, um, that's how I guess you could say he became, I don't know, a popular figure or a known person, and that's why I got-- was able with so many interviews to learn, to learn so much about him. Very sadly, um, Taf Shin Nun, Kaf Dalet Sivan in Taf Shin Nun, he was at that point just turned forty-one years old. He wasn't feeling well on Shabbos. Just wasn't feeling well. Nothing too astronomical. Shabbos was over. He goes to his chaver, his very close chaver, Dr. Feldman. You know, Dr. Feldman, uh, mamash a tzadik. You know, he would open up his office on Motzaei Shabbos. Dr. Feldman is, is incredible individual, and mirte schemá book should be written about him as well. I'm pretty sure it's gonna happen. Um, he, uh, opened up his office Motzaei Shabbos, so, um, my father was, you know, was there. It's, it's all... And he, again, this is still normal. He's, he's actually waiting upstairs in the house 'cause Dr. Feldman's basement was his, what is it? Was his medical clinic. So my father's on the first floor, you know, schmoozing with the children. Um, they're already older at this time. And like, okay, the office is open, and families are coming in, so

2:13:37 Speaker 1 come. So my father was the first one to be seen. And unfortunately, uh, within a few minutes of sitting with Dr. Feldman, he had a heart attack, and he passed away in the arms of his dear longtime friend. A lot of details, hatzalah came, v'chol. I was at a hasanah not long ago, maybe three, three years ago, and somebody was telling me that there was a whole buzz. This is on a Motzaei Shabbos, and there was a whole buzz, and they realized that, uh, Rabbi Shapiro had passed away, and they wanted to do the tahara. I, I, I don't think I've-- I, I couldn't believe it. I, I never heard of somebody deme-demanding, "I wanna do my, my childhood melamed's tahara." These were boys that are in seven seventy at the time. He said, the chevra kadisha, you know, it, it does not appear that they consider that an option. But just the idea of them vying to wanna do this tahara. And, uh, yeah, it's very unfortunate, uh, to, to put it mildly. He passed away very young, at only forty-one years old. And, and in his sh- in his very, very short life, he definitely left a tremendous legacy. And there's a lot of things you could learn about him in the book, the way he treated people in the community, whether it was financial or whether they were baal teshuva, whether their child was doing, uh, poorly in yeshiva, whether a child needed extra assistance. And it wasn't like today that Baruch

2:15:08 Speaker 1 Hashem, we have a tremendous amount of social services. You know, he was able to tell when this boy, you know, this is before, uh, all of the diagnosis we have today. He needed some space. "Okay, great. Here's a few dollars. Go to Kingston Avenue, pick up a bagel, you know, go get, go get a soda." He was able to sniff out what was gonna be, um, helpful to this child to enable him to make sure to smile in yeshiva and not to be, you know, not to, chas v'shalom, have a bitter taste toward Yiddishkeit. And, and, um, the, the shtarkheit, I guess you could say, that he has from his parents and his grandparents and making sure that Yiddishkeit is in your, and Chassidishkeit and Rebbe is mamash in your bones. You know, Dovid Feldman shared a very fantastic piece when they first moved to Crown Heights. He, you know, he disclosed to my father how hakafos is too much. It won't be a shocker to most people if I say this, you know, hakafos, it's, it's... I can't breathe. I can't do it. So I'm, uh, I don't think I'm gonna go. And, you know, it's very hard to admit to that. So my father says, "You know, it's hard for me too. It's very, you know, a lot of bocher, a lot of pushing, you know, at this. So what I do is I find a spot, maybe in the back where you're not being pushed around, and I soak up the avir."

2:16:20 Speaker 1 Like, I would, I would never give away that opportunity not to go to hakafos in seven seventy. It's a golden opportunity. Every single person watching and listening to this right now would pay a million dollars to go right now to the Rebbe's hakafos. And sometimes when you have something, you think it's gonna last forever. So at the time, my father was telling him, "Just go in there, soak it up, find a good corner, and you'll thank me forever." Maybe he didn't say those exact words, but let's just say the person that relayed the story feel, feels indebted in that regard. So, um, my father's legacy definitely carries on till today, particularly in, in the area of mish- of organized Mishnayos Baal Peh. You have it in every single camp. Every single Ganya stroll, every single Lubavitch cheder worldwide. Like I said, it pre-existed, but he systematized it on a very high level. When the boys were honored, he would bring all the Rabbanim in town. But the boys, the, the, the Olatara boys were the one on the dais on stage, and you'll see in the photographs. He put the boys on the stage, and then the next level on the ground level was all the Rabbanim. The boys were the star of the show. Again, very, very ahead of his time. He collected money. Like I said, Olatara just didn't have extra funds lying around. Where did all the prizes come from? There's hundreds and thousands of dollars of Sfarim. Where did it come

2:17:44 Speaker 1 from? The Feldmans were tremendous contributors. It seems like they were actually one of the key contributors, uh, at least from my research. When my father would send out reports to the parents, like almost like a, like a scorecard, and I have one in there, sort of like a nice letter about what's going on with the Mishnayos BePez, sort of be- because to encourage people. I think the, the official competition ran from Yut Shvat to Erev Nissan, um, so during that time period. And on top, on the top, it says, "LeZecher Nishmas," um, you know, Mrs., uh, Fe- Miriam Feldman's father. So my point is that, uh, the Feldmans also had the tr- tremendous chutz to fund the Sfarim or fund a tremendous amount of the Sfarim. And, um, these are the kind of things that he really wanted and successfully, and his legacy definitely carry, I mean, in, in many respects, his, his stories and his Hartske, but this is definitely one that, that runs on very deep in, in every Lubavitch Mesadui, Mesadui you find children.

2:18:38 Speaker 8 Amazing. Okay. And you're definitely, uh, continuing the legacy, and, uh, I encourage everybody to buy the book if you haven't done so yet. And this has been a real treat, and, uh, thank you so much for, uh, sharing everything.

2:18:56 Speaker 1 My absolute pleasure, and tremendous, tremendous Hatzlacha. Continued, uh, Hatzlacha to you, Yossi, with the Herr publication and the podcast. It's absolutely phenomenal, and I hope people take me up on my offer.

2:19:09 Speaker 8 Okay. All right. Hatzlacha Raba. Take care.

2:19:12 Speaker 1 Hatzlacha gezunt.